Weapons and armor of the Mongol warriors (part one)

"I will cast you down from the firmament,
From the bottom up I will throw you up like a lion
I will not leave anyone alive in your kingdom,
I will give fire to cities, lands and your lands. ”
(Fazlullah Rashid-ad-Din. Jami-at-Tavarih. Baku: “Nagy Yevi”, 2011. C.45)

The recent publication on the Military Review of the material “Why did they create a fake about the“ Mongolian ”invasion of Russia” provoked a plentiful, in a different way and can not be said, controversy. And some liked it, others did not. Which is natural. But in this case we are not talking about the substantive side of this material, but about ... "formal", that is, the accepted rules for writing this kind of material. In publications on historical topic, especially if the author's material claims to be something new, it is customary to start with the historiography of the issue. At least briefly, because “we all stand on the shoulders of giants,” or rather, those who were before us. Second, any a priori statements are usually proved by references to credible sources. As well as the allegations of adherents of the material that the Mongols did not leave a trace in military history. And since the VO site focuses precisely on it, it makes sense to talk about it in more detail, based not on mythical revelations, but on the data of modern historical science.

Fight of the Mongolian horse units. Illustration from the manuscript "Jami 'at-tavarih", XIV century. (State Library, Berlin)

We should start with the fact that there is hardly any other nation about which there was so much written, but in fact very little is known. Indeed, although the texts of Plano Karpini and Guillaume de Rubrucay Marco Polo [1] were repeatedly quoted (in particular, the first translation of Karpini’s work into Russian was published as early as 1911), we don’t, in general, give their written remarks has increased.

Conversation. Illustration from the manuscript "Jami 'at-tavarih", XIV century. (State Library, Berlin)

But we have something to compare their descriptions with, since in the East, Rashid ad-Din Fazlullah ibn Abul-Khair Ali Hamadani wrote (Rashid ad-Doleh; Rashid at-Tabib - “Doctor Rashid”) (approx. 1247 - 18 July 1318,) - famous Persian statesman, doctor and scholar-encyclopedist; former minister in the Hulaguid State (1298 - 1317). He is the author of a historical work written in Persian called “Jami 'at-Tavarih” or “Collection of Chronicles”, which is the most valuable historical source on the history of the Mongol Empire and Iran of the Hulaguid period [2].

Siege of Alamut 1256. Miniature from the manuscript "Tarih and Jahangushai". (National Library of France, Paris)

Another important source on this topic is the historical essay “Ta'rih-i Jahangushai” (“The History of the Peacemaker”) by Ala ad-Din Ata Malik ibn Mohammed Juvayni (1226 - 6 in March 1283), another Persian statesman and historian Hulaguid era. His work includes three main parts:
First: the history of the Mongols, as well as descriptions of their conquests before the events that followed the death of Khan Guyuk, including a story about the descendants of the Khans Dzhuchi and Chagatai;
The second: the history of the Khorezmshah dynasty, and here the history of the Mongol governors of Khorasan before 1258 is given;
Third: it continues the history of the Mongols until their victory over the Assassins; and tells about the sect itself [3].

The Mongol conquest of Baghdad in 1258. Illustration from the manuscript Jami 'at-Tavarih, XIV century. (State Library, Berlin)

There are archaeological sources, but they are not too rich. But today they are already quite enough to make evidence-based conclusions, and the texts about the Mongols, as it turned out, exist not only in European languages, but also in Chinese. Chinese sources, which in this case are referred to, are in the dynastic histories, in the data of state statistics and state chronicles. And here they are in detail and by years, with the thoroughness peculiar to the Chinese, describe both wars, campaigns, tribute paid to the Mongols in the form of rice, beans and cattle, and even tactical methods of warfare. The Chinese travelers who went to the Mongolian rulers also left their notes on the Mongols and North China in the first half of the 13th century. "Men-da Bei-lu" ("A complete description of the Mongol-Tatars") - in practice this is the most ancient source, written in Chinese on the history of Mongolia. This "Description" contains the story of the South Korean ambassador Zhao Hong, who visited Yanjin in 1221 with the commander-in-chief of the Mongol troops in North China, Muhali. "Men-da Bay-lu" was translated into Russian by V.P. Vasilyev as early as 1859, and for that time this work was of great scientific interest. However, today it is already outdated and a new, higher-quality translation is needed.

Civil strife Illustration from the manuscript "Jami 'at-tavarih", XIV century. (State Library, Berlin)

There is also such a valuable historical source, as “Chang-chun jen-jen si-ju” (“Note on the journey to the West of the righteous Chiang-chun”) - dedicated to the journeys of a Taoist monk in Central Asia during Chingiskhan's western march (1219 — 1225 yy.). A full translation of this work was made by PI Kafarov in 1866, and this is the only complete translation of this work for today, which has not lost its significance today. There is “Hey-da Shi-lue” (“Brief information about the black Tatars”) - an even more important source (and the richest!) Of the information about the Mongols in comparison with “Men-da Bei-lu” and “Chang-chun chen- jen hsi ji. " It is a note of two Chinese travelers at once - Peng Da-ya and Xu Ting, who visited Mongolia at the court of Ogedei as part of the South Hun diplomatic missions, and put together. However, in Russian we have only half of these notes.

The enthronement of the Mongol khan. Illustration from the manuscript "Jami 'at-tavarih", XIV century. (State Library, Berlin)

Finally, there is the Mongolian source itself, and a monument of the Mongolian national culture itself of the thirteenth century. “Mongolian Un Niucha Tobchan” (“The Secret History of the Mongols”), the discovery of which is directly connected with Chinese historiography. It tells about the ancestors of Genghis Khan and how he fought for power in Mongolia. It was originally written using the Uigur alphabet, which the Mongols borrowed at the beginning of the 13th century, but it came to us in transcriptions made in Chinese characters and (fortunately for us!) With an accurate word-for-word translation of all Mongolian words and a brief commentary on each of the paragraphs written in chinese.

Mongols. Fig. Angus McBride

In addition to these materials, there is a significant amount of information contained in the Chinese documents of the Mongol rule in China. For example, “Tung-chzhi tyo-ge” and “Yuan dian-chang”, which contain decrees, administrative and judicial decisions on various issues, starting with instructions on how to slaughter a sheep according to the custom of the Mongols, and ending with the decrees that ruled in China Mongolian emperors, and descriptions of the social position of various classes of the then Chinese society. It is clear that, as primary sources, these documents are of great value for historians studying the time of Mongol rule in China. In short, there is an extensive layer of sources in the field of Sinology, which are directly related to the history of medieval Mongolia. But it is clear that all this must be studied, as, indeed, any branch of the history of the past. “Cavalry attack on history” according to the type “came, saw, won” with links to only one of Gumilyov and Fomenko and K (as we often see in accompanying comments), in this case is completely inappropriate.

Mongol drives prisoners. Fig. Angus McBride

However, it should be emphasized that, starting to study this topic, it is much easier to deal with secondary sources, including those that are based not only on the study of the primary written sources of European and Chinese authors, but also on the results of archaeological excavations conducted by the Soviet and Russian scientists. Well, for the general development in the history of their homeland, we can recommend volumes of the series “Archeology of the USSR” laid out in the open access by the Institute of Archeology of the Russian Academy of Sciences, published during the period from 18 to 1981 year. Well and, of course, for us the main source of information is the PSRL - the Complete Collection of Russian Chronicles. Note that today there is no real evidence of their falsification, neither in the era of Mikhail Romanov, nor Peter I, nor Catherine II. All this is nothing but the fabrications of amateurs from folk-history, not worth a damn. The most interesting thing is that everyone heard about the chronicle stories (the latter, by the way, not one, but many!), But for some reason very few people read them. And in vain!

Mongolian with onions. Fig. Vine Reynolds.

As regards the weapon research topic, an important place is occupied by the research of a number of Russian historians recognized both in Russia and abroad [4]. There are entire schools created by famous historians in selected universities of our country and have prepared a number of interesting and significant publications on this topic [5].

Very interesting work "Weapon and armor. Siberian weapons: from the Stone Age to the Middle Ages ”, published in 2003, was written by A.I. Sokolov, at the time of its publication, Candidate of Historical Sciences, Senior Researcher at the Institute of Archeology and Ethnography of the Siberian Branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences, who has been involved in archaeological research in Altai and in the steppes of the Minusinsk Basin [20] for over 6 years.

One of the books by Stephen Turnbull.

The Mongolian and English-speaking historians who published in the Osprey Publishing House, and in particular, such a well-known expert like Stephen Turnbull [7], paid their attention to the topic of military affairs. Acquaintance with the English-language literature in this case is twice as profitable: it gives the opportunity to get acquainted with the material and improve in English, not to mention that the illustrative side of the Osprey publications has a high level of authenticity.

Heavy Mongol warriors. Fig. Vine Reynolds.

Having become acquainted, even if very briefly, with the historiographic basis of the Mongolian [8] military art, you can already consider it as a whole, leaving references to each specific fact for purely scientific works in this area.
To begin, however, the story of the Mongolian armament should not be from a weapon, but ... from a horse harness. It was the Mongols who guessed to replace the bit with the psalm with the bit with the large outer rings, the snaffles. They were at the ends of the rod, and already to them were fastened headbands and tied the reins. So, bits and bridles acquired a modern look and remain as such today.

Mongolian bits, snaffle rings, stirrups and horseshoes.

Improved their saddles. Now the bows of the saddles began to do so in order to get a wider base. And this, in turn, made it possible to reduce the rider’s pressure on the back of the animal and increase the maneuverability of the Mongolian cavalry.

As for throwing weapons, that is, bows and arrows, then the Mongols mastered them skillfully, as noted by all sources. However, the very design of their bows was close to perfect. They used bows with a frontal horn cover and "padded" extremities. According to archaeologists, the distribution of these bows in the Middle Ages was associated precisely with the Mongols, so they are often even called "Mongol". The frontal pad made it possible to increase the resistance of the center part of the bow for a fracture, but on the whole it did not reduce its flexibility. A kibit of onions (reaching 150 — 160 cm) was assembled from several kinds of wood, and from the inside it was reinforced with plates from the horns of the unmarried ones — the goat, the tur, the bull. Tendons from the back of a deer, elk or bull were glued to the wooden base of the bow from the outside of the bow, which increased its flexibility. In the Buryat masters, the bows of which most resemble the ancient Mongolian ones, this process took up to a week, since the thickness of the tendon layer should have reached one and a half centimeters, and each layer was pasted only after the previous one was completely dry. The finished onions were pasted over with bark, tied into a ring and dried ... for at least a year. And just one such bow was needed for at least two years, so at the same time, probably, many bows were put into the reserve at once.

Despite this, bows often broke. Therefore, the Mongol warriors took with them, according to Plano Karpini, two or three bows. They probably also had spare bowstrings needed in different climatic conditions. For example, it is known that a string of twisted sheep intestines serves well in the summer, but does not tolerate the autumn slush. So for successful shooting at any time of the year and the weather needed a different bowstring.

Finds and their reconstruction from the museum Zolotarevskogo settlement near Penza.

Tensioned onions in a way that was, however, known long before the Mongols appeared on the historical scene. It was called “the way with the ring:“ Going to pull the bow, they take it ... in their left hand, put the string for the agate ring on the thumb of the right hand, the front joint of which is bent forward, keep it in this position with the help of the middle joint of the index finger pressed to him, and stretch the string as long as the left hand extends, and the right hand comes to the ear; having marked his goal, they take away his index finger from the big one, at that very moment the bowstring slides off the agate ring and throws an arrow with considerable force (Uk. Soch. AI Solovyov - S.160).

Jade Archer Ring. (Metropolitan Museum, New York)

Almost all written sources that have come down to us mark the skill with which the Mongol warriors used onions. “It is very dangerous to start a fight with them, because even in small clashes with them there are so many dead and wounded, like others in big battles. This is a consequence of their dexterity in archery, since their arrows pierce almost all types of protective equipment and shells, ”wrote Armenian prince Gayton in 1307 year. The reason for such a successful shooting was associated with the high striking qualities of the Mongolian arrowheads, which were large in size and were distinguished by great sharpness. Plano Carpini wrote about them like this: "The iron arrowheads are very sharp and cut on both sides like a double-edged sword," and those that were used "... for shooting birds, animals and unarmed people, three fingers wide."

Arrowheads, found on the Zolotarevskoe settlement near Penza.

The tips were flat in cross section, petiolate. There are asymmetrically rhombic tips, but there are also those who have the striking part of a straight, obtuse or even semicircular shape. This is the so-called cut. Less common are two-horned, served to shoot at horses and the enemy, not protected by armor.

Arrowheads from Tibet, XVII - XIX centuries. (Metropolitan Museum, New York)

It is interesting that many large-format tips had a zigzag or “lightning” section, that is, one half of the tip protruded slightly above the other, that is, in a section resembled a zigzag of lightning. It has been suggested that such tips could rotate in flight. But is it really no one checked.

It is believed that with such massive shear it was customary to shoot with a canopy. This made it possible to hit warriors without armor standing in the back rows of dense constructions, and it was also hard to injure horses. As for the soldiers in armor, massive three-, four-sided or completely round, awl-shaped, armor-piercing tips were usually used against them.

The small-sized tips of the rhombic form, formerly popular even among the Turks, were also met and can be seen among archaeological finds. But the three-lobed and four-lobed tips with wide blades and holes punched in them in the Mongolian time practically ceased to occur, although they were very popular before that. Addition to the tips were bone "whistles" in the form of a double cone. They were made through a pair of holes and in flight they made a shrill whistle.

The pursuit of running. Illustration from the manuscript "Jami 'at-tavarih", XIV century. (State Library, Berlin)

Plano Carpini reported that every Mongolian archer had with him "three large quivers, full of arrows." The material for the quivers was birch bark and they contained about 30 arrows each. The arrows in the quivers for weather protection were covered with a special case - tokhtuem. The arrows in the quivers could fit and tips up and down, and even in different directions. It was customary to decorate quivers with horny and bone patches with geometric patterns and images of various animals and plants.

Quiver and nalud. Tibet or Mongolia, XV - XVII centuries. (Metropolitan Museum, New York)

In addition to such quivers, arrows could also be stored in flat leather cases, with their shape resembling beams with one straight side, and the other curly. They are well known for Chinese, Persian and Japanese miniatures, as well as for their exposure in the Armory of the Moscow Kremlin, and among ethnographic material from the regions of Transbaikalia, Southern and Eastern Siberia, the Far East and the Western Siberian forest-steppe. Arrows in such quivers were always laid with their feathers upwards, so that they protruded out more than half of their length. Wore them on the right side so that they do not interfere with riding.

XVII century Chinese quiver (Metroliten Museum, New York)

Bibliographic list
1. Plan Carpini J. Del. History of the Mongals // J. Del Plano Carpini. History of the Mongals / G. de Rubruk. Journey to the East / Book of Marco Polo. - M.: Thought, 1997.
2. Rashid ad-Din. Collection of chronicles / Per. from Persian L. A. Khetagurova, editorial and notes by prof. A. A. Semenova. - M., L.: Publishing house of the Academy of Sciences of the USSR, 1952. - T. 1, 2,3; Fazlullah Rashid al-Din. Jami-at-Tawarikh. - Baku: "Nagyl Evi", 2011.
3. Ata-Melik Juvaini. Genghis Khan. History of the Conqueror of the World = Genghis Khan: the history of the world conqueror / Translated from the text of Mirza Muhammad Qazwini into English by J. E. Boyle, with a preface and bibliography by D. O. Morgan. Translation of the text from English into Russian by E. E. Kharitonova. - M .: "Publishing House MAGISTR-PRESS", 2004.
4. Gorelik M. V. Early Mongolian armor (IX - first half of the XVI centuries) // Archeology, ethnography and anthropology of Mongolia. - Novosibirsk: Nauka, 1987. - S. 163-208; Gorelik M. V. Armies of the Mongol-Tatars of the X-XIV centuries: Military art, weapons, equipment. — M.: Eastern horizon, 2002; Gorelik M.V. Steppe battle (from the history of military affairs of the Tatar-Mongols) // Military affairs of the ancient and medieval population of North and Central Asia. - Novosibirsk: IIFF SO AN USSR, 1990. - S. 155-160.
5. Khudyakov Yu. S. Armament of medieval nomads of South Siberia and Central Asia. - Novosibirsk: Nauka, 1986; Khudyakov Yu. S. Armament of the nomads of South Siberia and Central Asia in the era of the developed Middle Ages. - Novosibirsk: IAET, 1997.
6. Sokolov A.I. "Weapons and armor. Siberian weapons: from the Stone Age to the Middle Ages. - Novosibirsk: "INFOLIO-press", 2003.
7. Stephen Turnbull. Genghis Khan & the Mongol Conquests 1190-1400 (ESSENTIAL HISTORIES 57), Osprey, 2003; Stephen Turnbull. Mongol Warrior 1200-1350 (WARRIOR 84), Osprey, 2003; Stephen Turnbull. The Mongol Invasions of Japan 1274 and 1281 (CAMPAIGN 217), Osprey, 2010; Stephen Turnbull. The Great Wall of China 221 BC – AD 1644 (FORTRESS 57), Osprey, 2007.
8. It is clear that the Mongol army was never multinational, but was a motley mixture of Mongol-speaking, and later Turkic-speaking nomadic tribes. Therefore, the very concept of "Mongolian" in this case carries a more collective than ethnic content.

To be continued ...

Comments

[Dooplet11]

Thanks! Interesting and informative.

[Artek]

frangue is this jamtavarich. You can write and paint, you can, whatever. But the presence or rather the absence of Mongolian genes among the Russians is a FACT and this is important.
The Mongols were, but not so, not Mongolian, but all these German books from German museums and all modern pictures and stupid books that embarrass people should be taken to Alexander Platz and set on fire, they will burn well.
In general, Samsonov, at least, builds some logic from this Tatar-Mongol igra and tries to respond to inconsistencies in history, and Shpakovsky in his repertoire, “but imported writers say that” ...

[Dooplet11]

But the presence, or rather the absence of Mongolian genes in the Russians, is a fact and this is important.

Fact to the studio! I'd like to see it!

[Artek]

Quote: Dooplet11

But the presence, or rather the absence of Mongolian genes in the Russians, is a fact and this is important.

Fact to the studio! I'd like to see it!

Klyosov - the creator of DNA genealogy conducted a study

But what about the saying: “Scrape the Russian — you will find a Tatar”?

- DNA genealogy does not confirm it either. The share of “Tatar” haplogroups among Russians is very small. Quite the contrary - the Tatars have a lot more Slavic haplogroups.

There is practically no Mongolian trace, a maximum of four people per thousand. Neither the Mongols nor the Tatars had any influence on the Russian and Slavic gene pool. The Eastern Slavs, that is, members of the genus R1, - a on the Russian Plain, including Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians - are descendants of the Aryans, that is, ancient tribes who spoke the languages ​​of the Aryan group, living from the Balkans to the Trans-Urals, and partly moved to India, Iran , Syria and Asia Minor. In the European part of Russia, about 4500 years ago, the ancestors of the Slavs and ethnic Russians separated from them.

https://www.spb.kp.ru/daily/26535.7/3551840/
in general, now there is a sea of ​​material in nete.

[tlauicol]

Klesov - a false professor, academy named after himself? (if you want to become a professor too - pay Klesov, well, or as an assistant professor if you feel sorry for the money).
Is he the creator of DNA genealogy (DNA ideology, if really) broadcasting to gullible Aryan Slavs from the USA? This luminary of science cannot lie - he is paid for research by the green (True, they do not accept Harvard professors and do not publish them in scientific journals, but for LJ and Kontakte, such a scientist will do as well - he will ask for less money).
Renegade Klesov must not be trusted - he is for the Slavs

[avva2012]

Quote: tlauikol He is the creator of DNA genealogy (DNA ideology, if really)

How much the level of education in the population has collapsed! DNA encodes protein information. Is there protein with which you can form a Russian, Buryat, Karelian? Suppose a Russian-Buryat peptide or a Buryat-Russian transcriptase? Well, what a nonsense! Yes, racial traits are inherited, no questions asked. If there is a grandmother in the family, Buryat, for example, then in the mirror the features of the Mongoloid race will be visible. The somatotype is naturally inherited. And what is a nation? How are national traits inherited? For example. The Greeks live in a certain territory and have a long history. What people of this nationality looked like 2 thousand years ago, can be judged by artifacts. After that, many diverse peoples passed through the territory of modern Greece, and what did the Greeks look like? Have they stopped being them? Try to go to this country and in the evening at the bar to discuss with the locals.

[co-creator]

Quote: Tlauicol

Renegade Klesov must not be trusted - he is for the Slavs

Can Balanovsom be trusted? SO THAT, he did research, not Klyosov.

[marline]

Quotation: blooded man

Can Balanovsom be trusted?

Can. By the way, Oleg Balanovsky was one of the first to criticize DNA genealogy.
And here, by the way, according to Klesov, how to deal with “our all” A.S. Pushkin ??? According to Klesov, he is still an Arab, and not Russian ...

[co-creator]

Quote: merlin

Can. By the way, Oleg Balanovsky was one of the first to criticize DNA genealogy.

Are you raving
https://www.nnov.kp.ru/daily/26099/2997176/

[marline]

Quotation: blooded man

Are you raving https://www.nnov.kp.ru/daily/26099/2997176/

Good interview. But where does the "DNA genealogy" and Klesov proper?
I ask you: http://lebed.com/2015/art6629.htm, http://antropogenez.ru/review/812/

[co-creator]

Quote: merlin

Good interview. But where does the "DNA genealogy" and Klesov proper?

I actually give Balanovsky gave. I don’t know Klyosov and I don’t want to know.
I can give other links where he writes about his work. He speaks clearly - Russian-Belorussians-Ukrainians-Poles are essentially one big nation by DNA. There is no Mongolian DNA from the word at all.

[marline]

Quotation: blooded man

I don’t know Klyosov and I don’t want to know.

Well then, please accept my apologies, so I misunderstood you.

Quotation: blooded man

I can give other links where he writes about his work. He speaks clearly - Russian-Belorussians-Ukrainians-Poles are essentially one big nation by DNA. There is no Mongolian DNA from the word at all.

Read. I agree.

[Sasha333]

Well, if they pay green, then on the contrary he would be against the Slavs. I don’t even need DNA research. I saw a child in the first generation (the father is Russian and the mother is, in my opinion, a Nanayk or Chukchi), so there is practically nothing from the Russian. And if you take 300 years, it's about five generations. You need to think logically. But Klesov was even asked by the Jews to check whether they had any similarities with the Arabs. These people are difficult to hold. He is a false professor, and who are you? Are you sir expert? Do you have authority? Do you know as a world scientist? It's just woof, woof and that's it. Give reasons.

[Dooplet11]

Even if Kolesov is right, and both the Mongols and Tatars “did not exert influence”, this does not mean that they did not influence. For 700 years, their footprint could have weakened to "four people in a thousand." Absorption crossing, you know ....

[Artek]

Quote: Dooplet11

Even if Kolesov is right, and both the Mongols and Tatars “did not exert influence”, this does not mean that they did not influence. ...

not bad “didn’t influence”, but “influenced”, you somehow agree with yourself first.

Quote: Dooplet11

For 700 years, their footprint could have weakened to "four people per thousand." Absorption crossing, you know ....

no, I don’t know Klyosov is a specialist in such matters, but you are guessing.

[co-creator]

Quote: Dooplet11

For 700 years, their footprint could have weakened to "four people per thousand." Absorption crossing, you know ..

Yes, no nicknames 4 per thousand. Generally there are no traces of the Mongols. Klyosov is a clown, and DNA was studied at the Balanovsky RAMS
https://m.gazeta.ru/science/2008/01/14_a_2552231.
shtml

[Yura Yakovlev]

Genes are not crossed, but inherited. Since the founding of Novgorod, the city has been multi-ethnic, as one third of its inhabitants (Nerevsky end) were ugrofin. Genetic studies of Americans, on which A.A. Klesov, revealed that in Novgorod 28% of its inhabitants have the haplogroup N1c1. According to the same studies, in the south of the region (80 kilometers from Novgorod) the genetic composition of the population is completely different - 78% R1a1 and 22% I (I1 + I2)

[Dooplet11]

From the fact only Klesov’s statement. Where is the study itself? Is it published? With evidence, calculations and documents?

[Artek]

Quote: Dooplet11

From the fact only Klesov’s statement. Where is the study itself? Is it published? With evidence, calculations and documents?

Do you think Klyosov is lying? Does it lie?

[Yura Yakovlev]

His article on R1a1 gene geogeography was published in the Swan online magazine.

[Yura Yakovlev]

WHERE ARE THE SLAVES AND "INDOOR EUROPES" HERE APPEARED? DNA GENEALOGY RESPONSES 21/09/2008 No. 575, September 21, 2008 Anatoly Klyosov

[Anton Capucin]

So let's get straight to genetics, only a likely human population can be identified by DNA. But a population is not a people. Why? Because there is a concept of personal self-knowledge, and its ancestors. In short, they brought him up.
The history of the glaupogroup cannot be the history of a population; corny you do not know who you yourself are. For example, you conducted a test and it turned out that you are Russian (I simplify, because there are 2 populations of Russians that differ in genes, but are united by culture) and someone else, the question is when your ancestors were pure Russians, Aryans, or who there still, it’s commonplace all of your ancestors, but they are distributed over time in different ways. Belonging to the people is the acceptance of the culture of this people as their own.
I would advise you to watch the video Scientists Against Myths 5-2. Oleg Balabanovsky speaks there, he is the head of the genomic geography laboratory of the Institute of General Genetics of the Russian Academy of Sciences. He publicly explains why Klesov’s approach is not correct. That is, the analyzes themselves are not bad, the conclusions are too simplistic.

[Artek]

But a population is not a people

Quote: Anton Capucin

But a population is not a people

the population is the people, only in Latin.

Quote: Anton Capucin

The history of the glaupogroup cannot be the history of a population; corny you do not know who you yourself are. For example, you conducted a test and it turned out that you are Russian (I simplify, because there are 2 populations of Russians that differ in genes, but are united by culture) and someone else, the question is when your ancestors were pure Russians, Aryans, or who there still, it’s commonplace all of your ancestors, but they are distributed over time in different ways. Belonging to the people is the acceptance of the culture of this people as their own.

you do not invent yourself too much
two populations of Russians, three populations, Russians are one people and there is no impurity of Mongolian blood there. That's what science says. And therefore, all this is an invasion and all these "sources" of falsification created by Milerombaerschlotser.

Quote: Anton Capucin

I would advise you to watch the video Scientists Against Myths 5-2. Oleg Balabanovsky speaks there, he is the head of the genomic geography laboratory of the Institute of General Genetics of the Russian Academy of Sciences. He publicly explains why Klesov’s approach is not correct.

every scientist is criticized, but Klesov’s people are in the queue, which means the matter is true or almost.

[avva2012]

however, Klesov’s people are in the queue, it means the matter is true or almost.

[Anton Capucin]

People become populations as a result of a common culture, why are they telling us that we are all Russians, and in the USSR, Soviet people? We should be united by something globally greater than our smaller features. And just the attempt to play tolerance, or national uniqueness leads to the growth of nationalism and discord. The proof is in the form, but leave it in Latin for others, I studied Latin at school and in the medical academy long enough to understand that if it says “...” on the fence, it’s not necessarily behind the fence. Latin and part of the Greek language is used so that it is possible not to swim in terminology and no more.
The first group. Well, let's talk about your Aryans, the haplogroup R1a is present in the Western and Eastern Slavs, the population of Northern India, and in the indigenous population of Altai-Sayan. The question is from which group to consider the ancestor, why are we from the Aryans, or maybe they are from us, or even better from the Siberians are we all. How do you determine who is the ancestor, only from what you want? I would think about something else you are trying to be proud of that does not depend on you. We are not our ancestors, it was they who made themselves great, it was they who created our vast country along the way by proving that it is not worth fighting with us. It was our ancestors who assimilated the peoples who later became known as Slavs. To be proud that you didn’t do it yourself or it didn’t depend on you, it’s just ridiculous. For an example, I take an example from my relatives, but I do not say that their merits are mine too.
The second group is I1 Scandinavia. Well, I think there’s no need to explain
Third N3 Finno-Ugric. Northeast of Europe, Northeast of Siberia.
All these three seemingly different groups are carried by Russians. Because Russians or Slavs (everything is even more famously there), these are not genes, but culture and language.
There are no genes. Are you so sure not? You do not want to test yourself for example? Scientists say that the Tatars are three different populations for example, and then what? What sources do you use, I use a site such as Genofond.rf and RSCI. Let's basically disassemble what the Igo is. The yoke is a vassal addiction, tribute, theft of specialists into slavery, killed during battles and sieges, dead from hunger and disease, devastated cities and villages. A tribute was collected by our princes, no one specially for us here, the whole crowd did not ride a tribute. Why should the Golden Horde keep huge garrisons with us, when they always find collaborators among the authorities in their tactics, and for a part of the label so that they do things themselves on the ground. How much do you think came during the invasion, we do not consider the idiocy of textbooks, because in academic circles the idea of ​​200-300 thousand has long been abandoned. Yes, and with whom they fight, the prince's squads are few and scattered. According to new estimates, it came well if 30-40 thousand. How could they dramatically change the gene pool? No way, considering that the medieval sieges without epidemics and hunger both from the besieged and from the besiegers, in principle, did not do. About the dead and wounded, who for the most part quickly became dead. Horses need to be fed, and more than one. In short, there are facts of the invasion, there is a fact of Iga, but just the details can vary. To draw far-reaching conclusions only because someone thinks so, or to take one fact and not take into account the others, this is just ordinary pseudoscience.
And about Klesov, you can do an analysis of yourself and find out the history of your family, but you cannot make a conclusion for everyone that everything is like you on this
only on this basis. Once again, I will repeat the analysis correctly, the result is correct, the conclusions are drawn as horrible, or rather as I wanted.

[co-creator]

Quote: Anton Capucin

Oleg Balabanovsky speaks there,

In fact, he says in plain text that there are no Mongol genes in Russians. Turkic is not more than normal. That is, in fact, there was no yoke and constant presence of Mongols and Turks in Russia. Then he tries to tie modern pseudo-historical science by the ears to his research results.

[Dooplet11]

What is the "norm" of Turkic genes? The yoke, under the name "Mongol-Tatar, in fact did not imply a constant presence. And, within the framework of the yoke, the sexual exploitation of subordinate territories directly on subordinate territory." The export of sexual capital "will most likely come from" Russian genes "from the enslaver.

[co-creator]

Quote: Dooplet11

What is the "norm" of Turkic genes?

As with any people living nearby and in contact with each other. The Russians in the neighbors had Turks and Finno-Ugric peoples. The Germans have so much political there because all of Europe passed through their territory many times over.

Quote: Dooplet11

Igo, under the name "Mongol-Tatar, in fact did not imply a constant presence.

If you are not present, then you are not in control. There is no other way. So IGO was not political control and there was no Tatar-Mongol conquest.

Quote: Dooplet11

And, within the yoke, the sexual exploitation of subordinate territories directly in the subordinate territory.

do you think the Mongols wandered around Russia for many years had no sexual contact with the local population? So then they were pi de ....?

Quote: Dooplet11

The "export of sexual capital" will most likely be given the "Russian genes" from the enslaver.

Where and who took whom?

[Dooplet11]

As with any people living nearby and in contact with each other. The Russians in the neighbors had Turks and Finno-Ugric peoples. The Germans have so much political there because all of Europe passed through their territory many times over.

In numbers, please! 5%, 25%, 50%? How is this norm related to the distance between the centers of the "habitat"?

If you are not present, then you are not in control. There is no other way. So IGO was not political control and there was no Tatar-Mongol conquest.

There is an administrative presence, and there is an occupational one. England 200 years ruled India. What is the norm of Eurogens in the blood of 2 billion Indians?

do you think the Mongols wandered around Russia for many years had no sexual contact with the local population? So then they were pi de ....?

What is the percentage of the number of sexual contacts of the administration and the representation of force to the total number of sexual contacts in the administered territory? the “norm of Turkic genes" will depend on this.

Where and who took whom?

Slaves, dearest, slaves! Workers in the service sector, including sex and sex! If you study the genotype of the British, then they will have more African or Indian genes than the British genes somewhere in Africa or India. But it was not the British who were oppressed colonially. Or Britain did not have colonies?

[co-creator]

Quote: Dooplet11

In numbers, please! 5%, 25%, 50%? How is this norm related to the distance between the centers of the "habitat"?

Read Balanovsky, he is an expert and actually investigated the Russian genome.

Quote: Dooplet11

There is an administrative presence, and there is an occupational one. England 200 years ruled India. What is the norm of Eurogens in the blood of 2 billion Indians?

That's right. In Russia there was not a single presence. There were no occupation troops and there were no governors (administrations) of khans from the metropolis.
Weird question . How can a small occupation administration and army leave Eurogens? The British in India were engaged in purely administrative affairs, all the dirty work was performed by the natives.

Quote: Dooplet11

What is the percentage of the number of sexual contacts of the administration and the representation of force to the total number of sexual contacts in the administered territory? the “norm of Turkic genes" will depend on this.

Well, I don’t know what percentage. In those days, after the capture of cities, the local population was subjected to total robbery and violence. Judging by the chronicles, the Mongols overpowered all the Slavs and Slavs.
The Türks, as it were, were our neighbors who lived here before the Mongols and after the Mongols.

Quote: Dooplet11

! If you study the genotype of the British, then they will have more African or Indian genes than the British genes somewhere in Africa or India.

WHY DO THE MONGOL DO NOT HAVE RUSSIAN GENES? drove the slaves, stole, and the sense of zero.

[Dooplet11]

I read. I’ll look.
Wasn’t there a single one? And who collected and drove the Odynsky exit? Local natives, apparently.

WHY DO THE MONGOL DO NOT HAVE RUSSIAN GENES? drove the slaves, stole, and the sense of zero.

I think because the Turks stole. Ethnic Mongols need to look for the Chinese and Turkic genomes.

[avva2012]

Quote: Anton Capucin The history of the glaugroup cannot be the history of a population, you are corny not knowing who you are.

Right! There is an ancient Semitic wisdom reflected in the Book: "a bird leaves no traces in the air, a fish in water, and a man in a woman." It just so happened, but the woman is an emotional being, requiring care and affection. Therefore, sometimes it happens that there are children, but they are not all, not traces of an official spouse. Will the child count, and most importantly, be Russian? I think, yes, even if the other is not a trace, was Semitic

[Yura Yakovlev]

"For example, you conducted a test and it turned out that you are Russian"
And if I turn out to be a Tatar?
Let's argue not from the position of scientists, but from the position of the Russian language, it will be more reliable. Scientists are also mistaken, and then repent, but do not want to admit their mistakes, because they have already earned a degree from their mistakes. So, from the point of view of the Russian language, a generic haplogroup is a genus, all people born from this haplogroup are a people. But when there are several generic haplogroups in the group, that is, collection of genera, then this is rabble. There are two more words on this subject - Geek and. Geek, the word is understandable - degeneration of the genus. But the word in Russian has the opposite meaning to the original. Ugly, then better than the rest. "The family is not without a freak." This means that in each system, according to the law of normal distribution, there are deviations, both in one direction and in the other. And now the question arises: How do Russians differ from Ukrainians and Poles, because the set of generic haplogroups and their percentage ratio are the same? And it differs in that the system is more powerful, and therefore its resonance is stronger, that is, the appearance of outstanding people in this system is more likely. It is no coincidence that in the 19th century, when population growth was about 4% per year, we have got so many artists, composers, writers and scientists.

[co-creator]

Quote: Dooplet11

Fact to the studio! I'd like to see it!

What is banned in Google? On, catch
https://www.gazeta.ru/science/2008/01/14_a_255223
1.shtml

[Dooplet11]

Retelling a retelling is not a proven fact.

[co-creator]

Quote: Dooplet11

Retelling a retelling is not a proven fact.

THERE AT ALL is the name of the site where all the results are laid out. This is an international organization that studies the DPR of all races and peoples, and Belkovsky is a member of this program.

[Alex1117]

It seems that at least 125 times were given. Only paleomongoloid genes of 6-7 thousand years ago have been recorded.

[kalibr]

Are Soloviev and Khudyakov imported? It would be nice if our people had one good habit - first read them the recommended, then write. Not the other way around! And read the 8 paragraph at the very end ... There was a mistake - it should be "mono-national."

[Artek]

Quote: kalibr

Are Soloviev and Khudyakov imported?

of 7 links to an article, most of it to foreign authors. That’s not the point. Tataromongolskoe has many inconsistencies, but neither your authors nor you want to answer this.
For example, the notorious Mongolian passion which drove these shepherds to the last sea, history does not know such precedents. They quickly rallied, quickly armed, quickly learned how to fight, quickly orientated themselves and became great conquerors of navigators, statesmen (created the Golden Horde). All quickly, and then through 200 years so degraded that the Mongols themselves forgot all their campaigns. They lost both the capital and all their manuscripts, except for foreign ones. This does not happen.

[kalibr]

It happens, as it happens! But this sport is pointless. I read all this and much more. You are not. And by the way, what do not suit you foreign authors. They have at their disposal not less, but often more, sources than in our hands. You will see the bibliography at the end of their books. It is very extensive, diverse and includes both primary and secondary sources. In this regard, the British were generally lucky. The British Library is at their service !!!

[Artek]

Quote: kalibr

And by the way, what do not suit you foreign authors.

foreign authors often commit bias i.e. an impartial analysis is not done, but the results are given to order in exchange for grants. Modern Western historical science has lost both honor and conscience. But why modern? She was always like that.

Quote: kalibr

It happens, as it happens!

I imagine how scientists declare that the Chukchi, who grazed deer all their lives, actually had a glorious past in the past and beat Russians, Chinese and even sailed across the three seas to America and built civilization there, but then they quickly lost all their abilities, degraded and now they simply graze deer. So the same picture about the Mongols. This is absurd.

[kalibr]

It's ridiculous! Highly! And it’s funny because people who write about the bias of Western historians DO NOT READ any of their books in the original language, who do not personally know them and do not have TAM any publications, not to mention books. That is the victims of propaganda. I have already written many times: write about engagement - find me the author of TAM, who in his book (title, publisher) frankly lies or distorts the facts with an indication of page. Do this and I will tell you HUGE THANKS and mix it up with mud. But ... no one responds for some reason ... That is, they know that "they are bad," but for some reason they do not want to publicly expose them. Then how do they know? Someone told them about this. And yourself, as with Pasternak - "I have not read it, but I condemn it!" Ah ah!

[Artek]

Quote: kalibr

And it’s funny because people who write about the bias of Western historians DO NOT READ any of their books in the original language, who do not personally know them and do not have TAM any publications, not to mention books.

But why? Here is such an author of the “new chronology”, Davyd Rol, who in the most impudent way is nothing worthless, not drunk, not eaten, on the basis of all kinds of fictions and conjectures, “investigated” the biblical story and shortened it and named his method no more, no less- " new chronology. "But this is plagiarism. The term" new chronology "has been staked out by other people and has more compelling reasons for this.
Here you are, try to figure it out.

[long in stock.]

how so? you argue that foreign authors are biased - and bring Klesov as an authority yourself. but he is a foreign author. Again you are trampling on your tail ..

[Artek]

Quote: long in stock.

how so? you argue that foreign authors are biased - and bring Klesov as an authority yourself. but he is a foreign author. Again you are trampling on your tail ..

this is precisely how academic science and people who order their genealogy recognize him, but historical science has compromised itself, because at the origins of this science were the Milerbauchölözer.

[Anton Capucin]

So stop, recognize Klesov in what? That he is a chemist, yes. The fact that he was engaged in enzymes, yes. Biochemistry, yes. But what does genetics have to do with it? He is not a biologist, not a geneticist, not a medic. He is a chemist. Specialization was not without reason, and a scientific approach appeared, so that just such supertheories would not be born.
Are you a nationalist or a fan of conspiracies? You do not like foreign scientists, but most of the scientific schools in our country were founded with their participation. A man of science has no bias, unless of course he is engaged in science. I personally care about something else that parasitizes on our residual knowledge, and we calmly believe that people are coming. And the worst thing is we don’t even think about whether the person is right, there is no criticality of the mind. In short, any theory must be criticized, and then draw conclusions. But in order to criticize it, one must study the process. And do not follow the people who go there, I will go.

[long in stock.]

they answered you. I don’t see the need again ..

[Cat]

Dear, did you think that the state of the Mongol-Tatars was primarily not only a multinational state formation, but also a "state" first of all sewn onto a "living" thread.
One can believe or not believe in the history of Genghis Khan, but the whole process of the formation of the "state" came up according to the same scenario. The neighboring clan, tribe, country obeyed. The vanquished had one option to swear allegiance to the khan and join the army of the Mongol-Tatars. Moreover, the rules for the formation of troops were uniform. The first Genghis Guides did not have antegynism with religion. Even the peoples exterminated by the Mongols found themselves in the continuation of children (below the axis of the cart wheel) and concubines.
So in search of true Mongols in the campaign of Batu Khan, there are not so many Muggles as those who were poured into this system by force. Given the methods by which Genghis Khan and his temniks rallied the army, it is not surprising that, as a war machine, the Mongols were ahead of the planet. And do not be surprised that among the Mongols there are such characters as Berendey who calmly speak with our princes without an interpreter on Kalka. So already in the second generation “Tatars” were called at best 1/2 the direct descendants of the comrades-in-arms of the shocker of the universe. So by 1300, when the Grezhzhan war in the Horde ensued between Muslims and champions of the old order. No wonder the defeat of the latter.
There is one more thing that cannot be missed. There is an immutable rule in history when a less cultured people gradually assimilate with a less cultured one. So it is not surprising that a century later on the territory of developed states from those Mongols remained "horns yes ....". If you approach from the other side, then the descendants of the horde have taken root well in all the captured countries, including Russia. Who are Karamzins, Yusupovs, Cherkasy.

[Luga]

Quote: Kotischa

One can believe or not believe in the history of Genghis Khan, but the whole process of the formation of the "state" came up according to the same scenario. The neighboring clan, tribe, country obeyed. The vanquished had one option to swear allegiance to the khan and join the army of the Mongol-Tatars. Moreover, the rules for the formation of troops were uniform. The first Genghis Guides did not have antegynism with religion. Even the peoples exterminated by the Mongols found themselves in the continuation of children (below the axis of the cart wheel) and concubines.

I agree. It is this approach to the formation of the state that is called imperial. Therefore, the "Mongol Empire". Before that - Roman and Byzantine, after- Russian. There are no nationalities - there are personnel.

Quote: Kotischa

There is an immutable rule in history when a less cultured people gradually assimilate with a less cultured one.

The meaning of what was said is clear, but "the sediment remains." It's a shame that some clever thoughts are expressed with such ridiculous mistakes. Sorry.

[Cat]

Yes, in the penultimate line should be read "more cultural." Thank you for your comment.

[co-creator]

Quote: Luga

I agree. It is this approach to the formation of the state that is called imperial. Therefore, the "Mongol Empire". Before that - Roman and Byzantine, after- Russian. There are no nationalities - there are personnel.

Excuse me, do not tell me for what kind of people Comrade Stalin raised a toast and why did he do it?
Cadres without a people are nothing, so the Russians were able to build an empire, while the Poles, for example, did not. Since the "cadres" relied on the Russian majority, and the Poles instead of building an empire had to polish the Russian population, which amounted to at least a third of the population.

[Dzungar]

The assimilation of the Mongols is also connected with the fact that mainly male soldiers participated in the campaigns. The fact that they were nomads did not mean at all that they went on a campaign with the whole tribe, with families, cattle and belongings. The recruitment of warriors on the campaign also took place according to a certain quota from the Sort and tribe, when someone went on a campaign and someone remained at home. Although of course it is problematic to talk about division into clans and tribes under Genghis Khan, the division was rather military. Since it was with him that they were all mixed together. And when the Mongol warriors settled in one place for a long time, of course, the question arose about women and families. And they were only from the local population, from the people OPTIONALLY with a more developed culture .. And so the dissolution of the Mongols in this and other territories took place. Therefore, to say that the Mongol warriors were present on the Kulikovo field is silly. They by this time were simply gone

[co-creator]

Quote: kalibr

It happens, as it happens!

give an example?

[kalibr]

The article is in front of you, there is a list of references in it - read!

[co-creator]

I have no doubt.

[nickname7]

Frangue is this Jamtavarich.

Compared to Zadornov, this is not a lie, but the truth.

But the presence, or rather the absence of Mongolian genes in the Russians, is a fact and this is important.

A fact proving that there were no Mongols? There were no Mongol empires and conquests? The nomadic people did not enter into mass marriages with farmers, from which the Slavs survived as the European race. To invent stupidity, to be surprised, your own stupidity, is a method of demagogy.

[Artek]

Quote: nickname7

the nomadic people did not enter into mass marriages with farmers, from which the Slavs survived as the European race.

nonsense.

[co-creator]

Quote: nickname7

A fact proving that there were no Mongols? There were no Mongol empires and conquests?

proving that there were no Mongols in Russia and those "punitive" operations.

Quote: nickname7

The nomadic people did not enter into mass marriages with farmers, from which the Slavs survived as the European race. To invent stupidity, to be surprised, your own stupidity, is a method of demagogy.

What would satisfy men's needs need to get married? Did not know))
For example, through Germany, who just didn’t roam, and the Germans do not have a single genome as the Eastern Slavs.

[abrakadabre]

But the presence, or rather the absence of Mongolian genes in the Russians, is a fact and this is important.

Your facts are some kind of rubber. Wherever I want, it will stretch there. What Mongolian genes can residents of old Ryazan, for example, or residents of Kozelsk, if during the assault on the city, the population (and not just combatants) was cut to the net? And that was the standard scare tactic. With later punitive raids, in the passage of troops, all that aroused the desire, sorry, to inseminate it with their genes, was stolen into the slave markets of the East, and everything else was cut as well as during the first invasion. So horror goes ahead of the army.

[nickname7]

Chinese men have a hairstyle - a braid. It turns out that this is not primordial - a Chinese, national tradition, for peasants to braid their hair in a braid. After the Mongols conquered China, the emperor ordered all the Chinese to wear the hair of a nomad so that they knew who they were walking under, if a Chinese man went out without a braid, they would chop his head as if violating the will of the emperor. Therefore, Chinese men with pigtails are tangible evidence of the Mongol conquests

[Artek]

Quote: nickname7

Therefore, Chinese men with pigtails are tangible evidence of the Mongol conquests

one more nonsense.

[Alex1117]

You confused the Mongols with the Manchus. Manchurians are the 17th century. And the Manchus did not actually conquer China, but they were invited to "conquer China" by the generals of the ousted dynasty that had been ousted by the people.

[abrakadabre]

And besides the braid itself, the rest of the head was ordered to men to shave. Therefore, everyone began to wear Bian-fa. Actually, Chinese men's hairstyle is long or very long hair.

[parusnik]

Vyacheslav Olegovich, they encroached on the "holy" thing ... and "rise up" .. the illustrations of ancient manuscripts depict typical Scythian-Russians from Siberia ... ..And so .. waiting to continue, probably an article from several parts will be ..? Very interesting stuff ..

[Azim77]

The Mongols (in fact they were different nationalities, the coalition) were relatively small and therefore could not hold large territories. Therefore, or rather, including because of this, they did not destroy peoples at the root in the occupied territories. They led them, appointed governors, kept everywhere the likeness of American military bases. And therefore, the images of typical Scythian-Russians and other nationalities, under the control of the khan, are quite appropriate picture for that time.

[co-creator]

Quote: Azim77

They led them, appointed governors, kept everywhere the likeness of American military bases.

To lead, you need to control them. In Russia there were no Mongol governors, as was the case in the same Central Asian khanates. It is said that the Basques were these governors. But the trouble is, no one knows in which city they were based, as the name of the main Baskak, what was their number and why they gave the collected taxes ... to the Russian prince. This is nonsense to give the tax not directly to your emperor, but to his alleged vassal who will transfer this money to the emperor. This has never happened in history)

Quote: Azim77

And therefore, the images of typical Scythian-Russians and other nationalities, under the control of the khan, are quite appropriate picture for that time.

Something I did not see ha these images no khan.

[Luga]

Quotation: blooded man

It is said that the Basques were these governors.

They say that chickens are milked. The Baskaki had purely fiscal powers, along with, of course, with diplomatic ones - they performed the functions of plenipotentiary representative of the khan.

Quotation: blooded man

But the trouble is, no one knows in which city they were based, as the name of the main Baskak,

Just because you don’t know does not mean that no one knows. Take the trouble to find information on where the Baskaks were (I suggest the Tver Baskak - in Tver, Moscow - in Moscow, Ryazan ... guess for yourself. But no, not in Ryazan, but in Pereyaslavl-Ryazan, since the Mongols destroyed Ryazan and it was not restored to its former place). And as for the names of these Basques, they are known to many. Learn the materiel.

Quotation: blooded man

why did they give the collected taxes ... to the Russian prince.

What a news. What forest are the woods from? The thesis from the series “the user” has a “consanguineous, both hands” is equally unproven, but it follows that a conservative cannot write messages in VO, which means someone else does it, which means that the conservative pays him, and it means that the one who writes works for money, and for money, it means the State Department, that is, I logically proved that you, a conscript, are an agent of the US State Department. And you, to refute this crap, you need to prove that you have at least one hand. Go ahead.

[co-creator]

Quote: Luga

They say that chickens are milked. The Baskaki had purely fiscal powers, along with, of course, with diplomatic ones - they performed the functions of plenipotentiary representative of the khan.

You tell the historians, not me.

Quote: Luga

Take the trouble to find information on where the Baskaks were (I suggest the Tver Baskak in Tver, Moscow in Moscow, Ryazan ... guess it yourself.

take the trouble to name the source, otherwise I haven’t found it anywhere. Just please, I don’t need to give a link to someone’s opinion, and specifically the source.

Quote: Luga

And here it is, not in Ryazan, but in Pereyaslavl-Ryazan, since the Mongols destroyed Ryazan and in its former place it was not restored).

You wanted to say Mughals, not Mongols.

Quote: Luga

And as for the names of these Basques, they are known to many. Learn the materiel.

the names of the Baskaks are known, but it is not known where they lived. Here we have the Minister of Defense Shoigu, also a Baskak.

Quote: Luga

What a news. What forest are the woods from?

from the writings of your sect, where else.

[Luga]

Quotation: blooded man

You tell the historians, not me.

Historians do not need, they already know. You need.

Quotation: blooded man

take the trouble to name the source, otherwise I haven’t found it anywhere.

And now I have to look for you. Read PSRL, the completion of the princes, spiritual letters, what else can I say? And if you don’t need it, I can’t help

Quotation: blooded man

You wanted to say Mughals, not Mongols.

No, I wanted to say "Siberian Scythian-Russes with Proto-Aryan roots."
How tiresome so frank, elevated to absolute, ignorance! You don’t know ANYTHING about the simplest things, you don’t even have the rudiments of historical knowledge, you don’t have the slightest idea about the techniques and methods of historical research, and the very first informational impact on your virgin brain, free of any basic knowledge, was imprinted in dumb as a trace of a tarpaulin boot in raw concrete.
I don’t feel like talking to you at all, you are absolutely not interested as an opponent, because you are blatantly illiterate, and your thought process is primitive to the point that you are not even able to understand what your opponents write to you normally. Nevertheless, you are active, so if you show the same activity in the future, from time to time you will have to pay attention to it, as if it were not unpleasant. And it saddens me.
But today is probably enough to mess with you. Until the next, I hope not soon, meeting.

[co-creator]

Quote: Luga

Historians do not need, they already know. You need.

There are many historians and everyone writes differently. Which do you think is correct?

Quote: Luga

Read PSRL, the completion of the princes, spiritual letters, what else can I say?

Actually, I did not expect another answer. Sorry. There was a more advanced person and he even threw off links to me. The truth is the same everywhere. We don’t know anything exactly and our own explanations began.

Quote: Luga

No, I wanted to say "Siberian Scythian-Russes with Proto-Aryan roots."

Sory, you are from the anti-Kles sect. I did not recognize you in makeup.

Quote: Luga

You don’t know ANYTHING about the simplest things, you don’t even have the rudiments of historical knowledge, you don’t have the slightest idea about the techniques and methods of historical research, and the very first informational impact on your virgin brain, free from any basic knowledge,

It's good that you know all this) True secretly)

Quote: Luga

And it saddens me.

You do not be sad, but simply confirm your words to specific sources.

Quote: Luga

But today is probably enough to mess with you. Until the next, I hope not soon, meeting.

And it depends on how you will justify your thoughts.

[Dzungar]

Quote: Luga

How tiresome so frank, elevated to absolute, ignorance!

The guys here are problematic ... This one bit him off, licked something ... If the greed is guided by greed - I don’t eat it like that, then our “conscript” is apparently driven by the inability and inability to read and comprehend something for more than two paragraphs ....

[co-creator]

Quote: Dzungar

"conservative" apparently driven solely by the inability and inability to read and comprehend something more than two paragraphs ....

Less verbiage and more specificity. You know, I can also describe your "exclusivity" only from this there will be no use.

[Dzungar]

Quotation: blooded man

Here we have Minister of Defense Shoigu, also a Baskak.

And whose Shoigu is whose Baskak ...?

Quotation: blooded man

You wanted to say Mughals, not Mongols.

Moguls in our country in India ... Inversion of your brain chtol ..?

[co-creator]

Quote: Dzungar

Moguls in our country in India ... Inversion of your brain chtol ..?

No, my dear, in Russian chronicles there are always moguls. Who and what you wrapped me not know.

[Dzungar]

Quotation: blooded man

in Russian chronicles Mughals are everywhere

Moguls in Russia only in one place - in the empty head of the "conscript" ....

[co-creator]

Quote: Dzungar

Moguls in Russia only in one place - in the empty head of the "conscript" ....

You have the second stage - denial. This is already progress.

[Dzungar]

No, I agree. I agree with your efforts on your own idiocy

[co-creator]

Quote: Dzungar

No, I agree. I agree with your efforts on your own idiocy

You need to read more and learn a lot of other words except idiocy)

[nickname7]

co-creator

To lead, you need to control them. In Russia there were no Mongol governors, as was the case in the same Central Asian khanates.

Come up with stupidity and yourself surprised at stupidity, deny stupidity, we must not invent, but study reality. Baskak was not a governor, Baskak, this is the tax service of the Khan. The security of the tax department was guaranteed by the prince, who received a label for reigning with the khan. The governor was the prince.

But the trouble is, no one knows in which city they were based,

If your head is empty and there is no knowledge in it, then there are no events in the world? Does the world exist, only what is in your head? Are you by any chance a god?

[co-creator]

Quote: nickname7

The governor was the prince.

do not tell anyone more such stupidity) THE PRINCE CANNOT BE A VICTOR BECAUSE HE WAS VASAL, that is, he was conquered. Viceroy is the one who controls the actions of the vassal.

Quote: nickname7

If your head is empty and there is no knowledge in it, then there are no events in the world? Does the world exist, only what is in your head? Are you by any chance a god?

Well, you have it so full that you do not understand the difference between a vassal and a governor)
Well, I will not joke on you, but just ask for a couple of links.

[Dimmih]

Jesus, here was an article that the Mongols are fiction of the Vatican !!!!! And here it is .... Cognitive, understand, dissonance !!! But what about the blond beast from the depths of the Paleolithic? So you can agree that Batu and Alexander Nevsky are two different people !!! But seriously, cheers, they waited, with which I congratulate everyone (except for the Rusoarians and other Wends, Etruscans who were equated to them).

[co-creator]

Quote: Dimmih

But seriously, cheers, they waited, with which I congratulate everyone (except for the Rusoarians and other Wends, Etruscans who were equated to them).

Well, the Russoarii have their own sect, but you have your own. So much for you from the master's table. Glad for you and your sect

[Dimmih]

Always happy to rejoice and share the joy!

[betta]

It doesn't seem like an article about the Mongols. The population is now about 3 million people, how many were 500 years ago? Among that number, how many could fight? At the same time, nomads, in a sharply continental climate, there is no way to fully cultivate the soil, and there is no metal abundance to mean problems for cities (how else to pile up?) Well, etc., etc. And how could these conquer someone? Or just get organized? I saw all sorts of pictures where those who are called Mongols here, for some reason with a European type of face, and on maps, for some reason, is Tartaria usually here for some reason? Well, who is right?

[Dimmih]

1) Number is always a vague matter. 2) In nomads, as a rule, every man is a warrior. 3) A sharply continental climate is when it is hot in summer and cold in winter, our native Altai Territory, landowners are flourishing, what problems are you talking about ?. 4) There is no metal ... Why is this? Justify this question. Well, and your subsequent perplexity, this, in fact, from a misunderstanding of the above. As for the pictures with the type of face, you will look at Japanese and Chinese pictures depicting Europeans. And yet, yes, you will see that all Europeans are Mongoloids !!!!

[co-creator]

Quote: Dimmih

1) Number is always a vague matter.

Wow. But then how can one talk about campaigns and conquests if the number of people is unknown?

Quote: Dimmih

2) In nomads, as a rule, every man is a warrior.

Do they mate with women, or like the Romans?

Quote: Dimmih

3) A sharply continental climate is when it is hot in summer and cold in winter, our native Altai Territory, landowners are flourishing, what problems are you talking about ?.

Nomads had no idea what wheat, rye, oats. What exactly did you want to say?

Quote: Dimmih

) There is no metal ... Why is this? Justify this question.

to such a huge number of warriors

Quote: Dimmih

As for the pictures with the type of face, you will look at Japanese and Chinese pictures depicting Europeans. And yet, yes, you will see that all Europeans are Mongoloids !!!!

The fact is that the Chinese and Japanese are from a different culture and for them everything is the same. In Russia, the Mongoloid features were not a wonder and Tatars, Cheremis was always depicted as Tatars and Cheremis.

[Dimmih]

I will not quote all your message so that the answer is readable: 1) the number of Mongols, that of the settled population of ancient states was relatively small, but for reasons known to you it cannot be accurately established. What can I say about this, if the population of one of the largest cities of its time in Babylon is estimated at 150 thousand people. How much is this compared to modern cities? 2) The essence of the answer “every male warrior” is that all the Mongol men were warriors. Why your bad question about who they mated with? I will tell you a secret, undoubtedly unknown to you - men mate with women, everything else is perversions. Remember this, it will help in reproduction. 3) The answer is not that the Mongols plowed and sowed, but that farming in a sharply continental climate is not only possible, but also flourishing. Nomadic tribes, in any case, the Altai people knew about farming and planted barley-talkan. Do you know what? 4) There is no metal for such a number of soldiers ... But for what? The number of firstly known only tentatively, and secondly, there are no hundreds of thousands that are mentioned by ancient chroniclers. Look at something with Klim Zhukov, there are moments about the abundance and methods of modern recounting. 5) Please kindly link where in the old Russian miniatures the Mongoloids are depicted as Mongoloids. Confirm the word so to speak with deed.

[co-creator]

Quote: Dimmih

I will not quote all of your message so that the answer is readable:

1. MEANS the number of the Mongols is unknown, but the ancient Babylon is known. Very revealing.
2. In addition, these warriors must mate and leave their seeds for Mother Nature. Modern science says this was not the case. So I wondered if these warriors were husbands.
3. Agriculture today thrives only because there are mineral fertilizers. Altaians may have sown barley, but until the 17th century the Mongols did not know what it was.
4. You tell me that the population is not known and then refer to the clown Zhukov. Sorry, but I don’t want to watch clowns and I can’t. The minimum initial number of Mongols should be about 100.000, otherwise nothing would have happened.
5 https://yandex.ru/images/search?text=ККА%20В%20ДР
EUNEY% 20RUS% 20 IMPORTED% 20TATAR & noreask = 1 & a
mp; img_url = https% 3A% 2F% 2Ferlangenwladimir.files.w
ordpress.com%2F2009%2F10%2Fmongolensturm.jpg&
pos = 18 & rpt = simage & lr = 47

[Dimmih]

1) The number of Babylon is known as approximately as the Mongol. The word "about", look in the explanatory dictionary. This does not mean exactly. 2) The issue of mating does not bother you. In a campaign, a warrior usually fights, and if he mates, then with enemy women. Refute. 3) Agriculture in the Mongols, read plenty http://asiarussia.ru/articles/307/, refute. 4) Clown Beetles or not a clown, it's like someone. Rusoariam is a clown, ordinary people do not. 5) And what does the link prove? Here you have the Dutch from the point of view of the Japanese http://s56.radikal.ru/i152/1104/16/50180e6971a0.j
pg, typical mongoloids.

[co-creator]

1. So name the approximate number Mongol. What is stopping you?
2. Of course it does not. I want to know the truth, not what is written on paper. You do not seem to understand that all battles during long months-long (sometimes several years) military campaigns take days, a maximum of a week. The rest of the time, the warrior sleeps, is, moves, and oddly enough it mates.
If he mates with local women, then he leaves offspring. Fortunately, science says that there was no pairing with the Mongoloids, and indeed the Turks, too.
3. Your link does not work.
4. Yes, he is a clown for all. Although maybe I was thinking the wrong Zhukov. Is this the one with the goblin on historical themes that suits the circus?
5. She shows that the Russians are depicted there in Russian robes, and the Tatars in Tatar robes. In short, the artist clearly divided the busurman and the Russians.
Honestly, I see people in a European costume and that’s why they can’t be Mongoloid. And the faces are quite European.

[Cherkashin Ivan]

At the time of the Battle of Molodi (1572), the population of the Russian kingdom was estimated at 8 million people, and the Crimean Khanate at 700 thousand. At the same time, the mobilization ability was comparable. An agricultural state can bring only a small percentage of its population into the field. If this example does not convince you, look at the approximate ratio of Manchu to Chinese in the 17th century.

[co-creator]

Quote: Cherkashin Ivan

and the Crimean Khanate in 700 thousand P

In the Crimea and the wild field lived 700.000 people? Who invented such a game?

[Alex1117]

At the time of the Battle of Molodi, our army fought in the Baltic states.

[Weyland]

Quote: betta

The population is now about 3 million people, how many were 500 years ago?

2 million - because now part of the Mongols lives in cities .. The steppe can feed a strictly fixed number of people, so that how many live in the steppe now - the same number lived under Genghis Khan!

[Dzungar]

Quote: betta

how many were 500 years ago? Among that number, how many could fight?

Do not judge the current population about what happened then. We should not forget that the best of the male population of then Mongolia went on hikes, where they died partly, and those who survived and remained there were assimilated by the local population ... And these are many thousands of Mongol men. And the campaigns were not only in Russia. This was preceded by campaigns in Central Asia and China. And about the same time, the conquests of the Middle East took place. And the Mongols always died ... At the battle of Ain-Jalut, for example, at least 10 thousand Mongols died. Men ... And then there were also the conquest of the rest of China. Do not forget that in the period 1756-58, Dzungaria was almost completely destroyed. inhabited by the Oirat Mongols. This is not less than 80% of the millionth population of the Dzungaria ... It is no wonder that after such shocks the population of present-day Mongolia is not so large

[Sasha333]

I completely agree. I watched the engravings. I looked at the icon of Sergei Radonezh, for some reason everyone is dressed alike, but the engraving on the Battle of Lake Chyudskoye clearly shows where someone is.

[Sedoy]

* historical work called “Jami 'at-tavarikh” or “Collection of chronicles”
----------------------------
well ... write something he wrote it ...
only he himself did not witness that ...
all that he wrote is from the words of third parties ...
those. some compilation of other people's stories - no historical authenticity ...

* His composition includes
---------------------
key here is the "essay" ...
and here it is:
"There are archaeological sources, but they are not too rich."

but into this:
“But today they are already quite enough to draw evidence-based conclusions” - hard to believe ... :)
then whoever dines on the girl dances her ...
those. we have tales ...
there are no reliable facts ...

from time immemorial, war is an expensive pleasure ...
resource-intensive
and most of them are needed in the initial period, when there is no looted wealth
where could they appear on the territory of present Mongolia, if there was practically nothing there, except for the territory of "self-survival" ...
there is not a single archaeological veil of the existence of a developed civilization capable of creating, supplying and providing such an army ...
those. there is every reason to believe that all this "yoke" had other roots ..

by the way about China ...
the current wall of China is a remake that no one is hiding ...
but the real one, as it is not strange built for protection not from the "north", but from the "south" - i.e. from china ...
who built it to protect against the "Chinese side" ... :)

[Dooplet11]

from time immemorial, war is an expensive pleasure ...
resource-intensive
and most of them are needed in the initial period, when there is no looted wealth
where could they appear on the territory of present Mongolia, if there was practically nothing there, except for the territory of "self-survival" ...
there is not a single archaeological veil of the existence of a developed civilization capable of creating, supplying and providing such an army ...
those. there is every reason to believe that all this "yoke" had other roots ..

The nomadic lifestyle itself is almost a “permanent war”. Therefore, the nomad supplies himself with the very fact of moving in space and in the direction of "developed civilizations." And such a war becomes an expensive pleasure just for developed neighbors. No contradictions. Do not find?

[jjj]

The whole thing is that there are no "Mongolian" sources. And the people who "conquered half the world" must definitely leave something material behind them

[Dooplet11]

From time to time, massive spontaneous migrations of animals occur. Single animals suddenly stray into huge flocks and move over considerable distances. And interestingly, after a certain period of time, too, there are no traces of such migration.

[Cat]

Quote: jjj

The whole thing is that there are no "Mongolian" sources. And the people who "conquered half the world" must definitely leave something material behind them

The cities of Sarai, Sarai Berke with an estimated population of at least 75 people. Is it not material?

[co-creator]

Quote: Dooplet11

The nomadic lifestyle itself is almost a “permanent war”. Therefore, the nomad supplies himself with the very fact of moving in space and in the direction of "developed civilizations." And such a war becomes an expensive pleasure just for developed neighbors. No contradictions. Do not find?

So there are no more examples in world history that nomads would build a state while remaining nomads. This is a unique case, so to speak, and is therefore a contradiction.

[Dooplet11]

What state are we talking about? About the Golden Horde, or what? The horde states of the 14-15 centuries were not nomadic states, but were an assimilation of the latter in the original agricultural regions. The hordes of the times of Genghis were the structural parts of the union of nomadic tribes. No more.

[co-creator]

Quote: Dooplet11

What state are we talking about?

Who took labels for reigning.

Quote: Dooplet11

The horde states of the 14th-15th centuries were not nomadic states, but were an assimilation of the latter in the native agricultural regions.

That's right, so it's unclear who got the labels from.
I know the state of Crimean Tatars, state. Hungarians know, state. Ottoman Turks know, state. I don’t know the golden horde. What remains of this state? Where is its population? Like where, again it turned into a nomad.

Quote: Dooplet11

The hordes of the times of Genghis were the structural parts of the union of nomadic tribes. No more.

I agree completely.

[Dooplet11]

I know the state of Crimean Tatars, state. Hungarians know, state. Ottoman Turks know, state. I don’t know the golden horde. What remains of this state? Where is its population? Like where, again it turned into a nomad.

In what year did Ivan IV Kazan take? Then the Golden Horde ended as a state. Maybe a little later, having existed a little more in the form of fragments such as the Astrakhan Khanate. And the population now lives in the republics of Tatarstan and Bashkiria.

[co-creator]

Quote: Dooplet11

In what year did Ivan IV Kazan take? Then the Golden Horde ended as a state.

Did Ivan IV know that he was fighting a golden horde?)

Quote: Dooplet11

And the population now lives in the republics of Tatarstan and Bashkiria.

That is, there was a large state that conquered dozens of states that were higher in development, and then people decided to turn into nomads again?
Very curious version.
By the way, in the Tatarstan as the Bulgars lived, they remained. Mongoloids, that is, there are not even a third of aliens there.

[garlic68]

[quote = Dooplet11] [quote] ... the population now lives in the republics of Tataria and Bashkiria. [/ quote]

[garlic68]

Bullshit, Alexander! Come to us in Kazan and look the Tatars in the eye - 70% of them are blue, gray and green! Show me such Mongols and Turks!

[Dzungar]

Quote: Sedoy

well ... write something he wrote it ...
only he himself did not witness that ...
all that he wrote is from the words of third parties ...
those. some compilation of other people's stories - no historical authenticity ...

Do you not know ... ??? The Vatican whispered it to him ..... Everyone here already knows, but you do not .... Gyyy

[Dzungar]

Quote: Sedoy

war is an expensive pleasure ...
resource-intensive

Just imagine that time and way of life of a nomad ... And please tell me - WHAT RESOURCES ARE NECESSARY NOMBER FOR WAR ...? Despite the fact that he has weapons and armor, since the nomad’s whole lifestyle is hunting and constant confrontation with neighbors over the territory for grazing cattle, this is the main resource of the nomad ... A couple of three horses will always be found ... THERE IS ANOTHER NOMBER REQUIRED. ...? What other resources ...? His pay will be prey, food will be taken with him, something will come in the way of the enemy ... Why confuse modern armies, which require enormous expenses related to the operation of equipment, with the armies of the time where the equipment was absent from the word AT ALL ...? Or confuse the army of the Mongols with the mercenary armies of Europe, which need to pay something, or they "turn bayonets" in the other direction ...?

[abrakadabre]

all that he wrote is from the words of third parties ...
those. some compilation of other people's stories - no historical authenticity ...

As for what you wrote, it is from the words of not even third parties. The clown chain is much longer. And the scientific value of this scribble is even less than the “Jami 'at-tavarih” cursed by you. The mentioned work is not a holy scripture about the Mongols. Get familiar with such a discipline as source study. At least in the scope of the Wikipedia article. Try to make sense of it.

[Cxnumx]

author, let me kiss you!
Shl it seems that readers need a series of articles on how the Mongols moved from China to the West. and then some individuals begin the invasion of Batu in Russia directly from the Great Wall of China and set aside everything about everything for a couple of months.
Special thanks for the correct presentation of the material with references and sources, unlike many others.

[Dzungar]

There’s an idea to make a horse run from Mongolia to the Volga at least .... In 1935, Turkmen on horseback traveled 84 km from Ashgabat to Moscow in 3500 days ... And now, some seriously say that for more than two years, from the moment a decision was made on a Western campaign until the arrival of the Mongols in Russia, 5000 km is impossible to pass ....

[co-creator]

Quote: Dzungar

In 1935, Turkmen on horseback traveled 84 km from Ashgabat to Moscow in 3500 days ... And now some quite seriously argue that for more than two years, from the decision on the Western campaign to the arrival of the Mongols in Russia, 5000 km must be covered impossible ...

You are a very kind, very stupid person. You still have to be able to write such nonsense.

Quote: Dzungar

There is generally an idea to make a horse run from Mongolia even to the Volga ..

This is a good idea. Collect 50.000 horsemen and go ahead) I’m only afraid you won’t get far)

[Dzungar]

Quotation: blooded man

Quote: Dzungar
In 1935, Turkmen on horseback traveled 84 km from Ashgabat to Moscow in 3500 days ... And now some quite seriously argue that for more than two years, from the decision on the Western campaign to the arrival of the Mongols in Russia, 5000 km must be covered impossible ...
You are a very kind, very stupid person. You still have to be able to write such nonsense.

https://history.wikireading.ru/83271

[co-creator]

Quote: Dzungar

https://history.wikireading.ru/83271

How did you manage to compare the journey of 35 people in the 20th century with the aggressive campaign of an entire army in those remote times?

[Dzungar]

Quotation: blooded man

Quote: Dzungar
In 1935, Turkmen on horseback traveled 84 km from Ashgabat to Moscow in 3500 days ... And now some quite seriously argue that for more than two years, from the decision on the Western campaign to the arrival of the Mongols in Russia, 5000 km must be covered impossible ...
You are a very kind, very stupid person. You still have to be able to write such nonsense.

https://ok.ru/video/34644101655

[XII legion]

Terrific!
The Mongolian theme is fascinating. It is no joke - the largest large land empire in history.
And when it is written so professionally - it's generally super. The source base on the issue is characterized, the text is provided with beautiful illustrations. It is also very interesting that special attention is paid to the characteristic details of the equipment and weapons of the Mongol warrior.
Bow to the author.
We look forward to continue!

[kalibr]

Quote: Sedoy

but the real one, as it is not strange built for protection not from the "north", but from the "south" - i.e. from china ..

This is unscientific fiction! Want answers? The bibliography is given, read, look at the photo ... By the way, on one Zolotarevsky settlement there are plenty of finds. In total, there will be 3 articles in each bibliography and cover photo. Search - read, compare ...

[Alexey-74]

This is all interesting, are there any foreign descriptions of the campaign in Russia ???

[Severomor]

Good illustrations, where in brackets (State Library, Berlin). You can see how the Chinese are fighting the Chinese or the Turks with the Turks, well, or the eastern type of person with the eastern.
But the Mongols (they are Tatars, they are also ......) are fighting near Kozelsk. Thumbnail from the annals. Either the artist is not as strong as from the Berlin Museum, but something is wrong here. Although, too, they are all the same on both sides.

[tlauicol]

it is strange why you are not confused by cards with the inscription Tartaria, published in Berlin, Holland, England, etc. ?
Do not be confused by the Book of Veles, zafigachennaya in the United States?
Misters Klesov and other chronolozhets working at Harvard?
With this “am” you look in your mouth, and they scribble Aryan delirium to the delight of dolboles, who are not even interested in who their idols are

[Severomor]

It is strange that they did not catch the essence of the same warriors on either side. Absolutely the same. Although if you look at A. Nevsky in the battle with the Germans - there are differences
The picture is better. Siege of Kozelsk

[tlauicol]

Japanese nationalists also painted Europeans - a sensation, no?

[Artek]

but now the Japanese even portray the Japanese as white.

[co-creator]

Quote: Tlauicol

Japanese nationalists also painted Europeans - a sensation, no?

If the Japanese used to have such a beard, then a sensation. If not, you can immediately distinguish Asian from European. So how did they portray themselves?

[Cherkashin Ivan]

Images were most often written by monks, be it an icon or an illustration in a book. The monk was sitting in some kind of monastery near Pskov, he did not see these Mongols in his eyes, and he took an example for the image from HIS memory (what the prince's warrior looks like for example). Even if we distract from the Mongols and take the first saints who still lived in the Roman Empire. So in some images they are dressed in full knight's armor, which, horror, coincides with those that were worn by the knights at that time and in the place where the picture was painted. And I'm still silent about Pesiglava)))

[Artek]

Images were most often written by monks, be it an icon or an illustration in a book

exactly all the monks are inventors and their story is also an invention.

Quote: Cherkashin Ivan

Even if we distract from the Mongols and take the first saints who still lived in the Roman Empire. So in some images they are dressed in full knight's armor, which, horror, coincides with those that were worn by the knights at that time and in the place where the picture was painted.

it’s like some kind of nightmare, but then the right historians appeared, removed the armor from the soldiers of Rome and put on sandals and skirts, so right.

Quote: Cherkashin Ivan

And I'm still silent about Pesiglava)))

Yes, it’s better to be silent.

[tlauicol]

yeah, but did you see the column of Trajan? dad flipped an angel from above, but he didn’t have time to wipe the figures in antique costumes — so poor fellow did so with falsification of history. Or maybe in the Middle Ages a column was installed and people then wore togas and Roman armor? and all these knights and costumes 16-19vv fake of the Romanovs and Zhidomasons? In principle, if we consider that Trayan and Sixtus Fifth are one and the same person, then everything converges. Well, I forgot to fake the artifact - with whom it does not happen! This is a photoshop by Chudinov, and SikstoTrayan still had to rush to China and catch Easter Island

[Artek]

Quote: Tlauicol

yeah, but did you see the column of Trajan? dad flipped an angel from above, but he didn’t have time to wipe the figures in antique costumes — so poor fellow did so with falsification of history. Or maybe in the Middle Ages a column was installed and people then wore togas and Roman armor? and all these knights and costumes 16-19vv fake of the Romanovs and Zhidomasons?

all right, you say, in the Middle Ages they wore skirts, togas, and armor, for example, in Pompeii there are images of a knight, how did it get there?

[avva2012]

for example, in Pompeii there are images of a knight, how did it get there?

A child could draw a gladiator, for example.

Is it a neighbor after the bathhouse, or were the red-skinned Centauri seized by Earth?

[Artek]

more like a knight than a gladiator.

[avva2012]

This is, in your opinion, an adult.
or
or

The secutor, murmillon and provocateur were armed with a large rectangular shield of convex shape (scutum). Very similar to what is shown in the picture.

[Artek]

and what image do you refer to, a remake or a sculpture? If the sculpture, then what is it from? Where is the link?

[avva2012]

Right-click on the image: "search on this image in Yandex"
Gladiators: equipment and weapons Military-historical portal Warspot.ru

[Artek]

Quote: avva2012

Right-click on the image: "search on this image in Yandex"
Gladiators: equipment and weapons Military-historical portal Warspot.ru

no, it won’t work, it’s not clear where and what you dug with your right button doesn’t.

[Han Tengri]

Quote: avva2012

Right-click on the image: "search on this image in Yandex"
Gladiators: equipment and weapons Military-historical portal Warspot.ru

Quote: Artek

no, it won’t work, it’s not clear where and what you dug with your right button doesn’t.

Do you, doctor, still not tired of playing chess with pigeons?

[avva2012]

this is not done.

[long in stock.]

why did you decide that this is an image of a knight? for example, there are no spurs ..

[avva2012]

And not Landsknecht, there is no codpiece.

[co-creator]

Quote: Cherkashin Ivan

Even if we distract from the Mongols and take the first saints who still lived in the Roman Empire. So in some images they are dressed in full knightly armor, which, horror, coincides with those that were worn by the knights at that time and in the place where the picture was painted. And I'm still silent about Pesiglava)))

Maybe then this suggests that all the information is quite false? Then why such a belief in the Mongol. Besides the monks who did not see anything, but only wrote, is there any evidence?

[Artek]

Quotation: blooded man

Then why such a belief in the Mongol.

the right question, the Mongols were, but not like that.

[Cherkashin Ivan]

History is not a matter of faith or belief. Although it is useless to explain this to alternative historians. There is a specific fact of the discrepancy in the appearance of real historical (or mythical from another time or locality) characters and their images. I explained one of the reasons. And the invasion of the Mongols is confirmed by a whole complex of evidence.

[Cat]

Question?
Have you ever thought about when this work was written?
Or let's answer the question who wrote it?
Given that the inhabitants of Kozelsk died during the siege or were driven into slavery. The obvious conclusion is that the brush was not held by the hand of an eyewitness.
The siege machines "vices" in miniature are characteristic. Any knowledgeable person will say that they are obviously not capable of shooting, especially with several cores. Those. the artist knew that there were flaws in the sediment of Kozelsk, but what they look like is obviously not.
Well, the last landscape of Kozelsk. Google to help you. If the action took place in the Caucasus or in the foothills of the northern Urals.
So, we see the caconic miniature of a talented and well-read monk, not only not an eyewitness, but also an outspoken layman in military affairs. In addition, this miniature more likely appeared two centuries later.

[co-creator]

Quote: Kotischa

Have you ever thought about when this work was written?

Have you ever wondered who writes historical chronicles in general and how?

Quote: Kotischa

Given that the inhabitants of Kozelsk died during the siege or were driven into slavery. The obvious conclusion is that the brush was not held by the hand of an eyewitness.

We know this only from the words of the annals which were written by a person who could not know this, SO HOW all were stolen into slavery. The conclusion is obvious. The chronicle is written from someone’s words that could not be verified by the chronicler.

Quote: Kotischa

The siege machines "vices" in miniature are characteristic. Any knowledgeable person will say that they are obviously not capable of shooting, especially with several cores. Those. the artist knew that there were flaws in the sediment of Kozelsk, but what they look like is obviously not.

What does the vice have to do with it? How many people in 1939 knew what a tank looked like? But everyone knew exactly what form the soldiers of the red army had and what banners they had.

Quote: Kotischa

Well, the last landscape of Kozelsk. Google to help you. If the action took place in the Caucasus or in the foothills of the northern Urals.

And what did the monks think there are mountains near Kaluga? Your interesting train of thought

Quote: Kotischa

So, we see the caconic miniature of a talented and well-read monk, not only not an eyewitness, but also an outspoken layman in military affairs.

Any chronicler monk of that time knew exactly what a combatant, a prince and banners looked like.

Quote: Kotischa

In addition, this miniature more likely appeared two centuries later.

Who is it likely? So the later the miniatures are written, the more Tatars and Mongols are there.

[Dimmih]

You will look at old pictures of Chinese and Japanese depicting Europeans, and everything will become clear to you. Like someone used to, he painted, by virtue of professionalism, so to speak.

[Dzungar]

There is a difference!!! The besiegers on the shoulder plates of armor have dashes. But the besieged - no ..! So much for the proof ...

[co-creator]

Quote: Tlauicol

it is strange why you are not confused by cards with the inscription Tartaria, published in Berlin, Holland, England, etc. ?

And you yourself do not mind these cards and inscriptions? It doesn’t bother you that all Russian chronicles say MOGOLS, but historians persistently remake MONGOLES.
But you are very interested in Klyosov.

[Albatroz]

Good and professional answer to Chamberlain
Interestingly
Competently
Clearly
Klasse!

[betta]

Wait, what about these images?

[Orang]

Shock sensation: Genghis Khan's passport found.

[betta]

Meet Tamerlan:

[tlauicol]

Meet Guy Julius Caesar

[betta]

In truth! Your faith will be yours. We will not argue, for me it is better to think that whites ruled in the current territory of Mongolia. The greatness of our ancestors raises me as well. Who likes that narrow-eyed owned them - yes please. What a person thinks about is what he becomes.

[tlauicol]

Quote: betta

In truth! Your faith will be yours. What a person thinks about is what he becomes.

you are right, a lover of racially correct Slavic-Aryan theories

[betta]

Thank you for understanding.

[Dimmih]

Belief in a fictitious greatness path is just like an American belief in superheroes: if it has not passed with age, then this is a diagnosis.

[voyaka uh]

What Klesov is silent about ...
The ancient Jews of 500,000 years ago looked like this (reconstruction of a Cro-Magnon skull):
And reaching the Siberian plains, they brought light from there to all of humanity
(with their stone axes), changing the name in the course of the name to the Aryans (e-r-e-e and a-r-and-i - it looks like it?).

[mar4047083]

Looks like one deputy of the State Duma. Is he also a Jew?

[3x3zsave]

What is this talking about? Boxing is the music of the poor.

[mar4047083]

I don’t think so. The servants of the people cannot be poor.

[Luga]

Quote: voyaka uh

What Klesov is silent about ...
The ancient Jews of 500,000 years ago looked like this (reconstruction of a Cro-Magnon skull):
And reaching the Siberian plains, they brought light from there to all of humanity
(with their stone axes), changing the name in the course of the name to the Aryans (e-r-e-e and a-r-and-i - it looks like it?).

I put a plus for a healthy irony.
I’ve thought about asking for Jews more than once (they’re doing the whole history of mankind, I also want to), but recently I’ve changed my mind and go ask for Anglo-Saxons, they’ll probably be more abrupt. So what about the Jews now is not necessary-not in the trend. Show us a portrait of ancient Anglo-Sakas for comparison

[voyaka uh]

Somehow in a company in Johannesburg came up to me
young Hindu: "Jew?" - "yes" - "how to become a Jew?"
I - "you-py" - began to explain. He wrinkled his forehead - hard ...
Then he beamed: "I will become a Muslim! It's easy to sign up to them,
and they’re cool too! ”I congratulated him, of course, on this great idea.

[Servisinzhener]

I know that, in principle, you can become a Jew. But I wonder how you can become a Jew as an ethnic Hindu? It is necessary after all that at least mother was a Jew, not?

[Dimmih]

What is not your version? It is quite logical. Only the axes were already bronze in my opinion. By the way, that is why Europe is so named as the territory of the resettlement of Jews. Europe-Jews, the ancestral home, so to speak. And then, when the world refrigerator opened up, the Jews migrated to the Middle East, led by a pillar of light. Um, and then when was before or after?)))))

[voyaka uh]

And I to you (in gratitude) I'll post a version: Vikings are Russians. Why?
Vikings are seafarers. So the sailors. Mat dew. Dew is Russ. Russians.
Mat - expressed obscenely (you begin to express yourself there in a storm on fragile little boats).
That is, sailors are Russians who use mate in speech. So - the Vikings.

[Luga]

Quote: voyaka uh

And I to you (in gratitude)

Well, then I’ll give you a hell of fun.
Studies by reputable scientists have shown that the word “Mongol” is the old Russian word “log” or “log-gnome” read in reverse order (not to be confused with the Turkic “lagman”), where the “log” should also be read in the opposite direction - “goal " Thus, we get a “golnom” understandable to every descendant of the ancient Aryans, that is, a “poorly dressed man of small stature,” which the Mongols, from the point of view of civilized, clothed, tall and beautiful Russians, were certainly.
Where is my nobel prize?

[voyaka uh]

Good life has gone !. In almost five minutes, having
in front of you is only a keyboard, any person with a little imagination
(even dope smoking is not necessary) can create a scientific theory,
spread on social networks, get numerous supporters,
links, rating, reputation ... And who scolds: black PR - hype - even better for
popularity!

[Azim77]

How do you like these options:


There were no cameras, they were painted either according to an oral description, or from memory, seeing very far away.
But here's how they portray him:

[tlauicol]

How do you like the portrait of Artaxerxes (5th century BC), also painted "from memory" by Cristofano del Altissimo commissioned by the Duke Cosimo Medici? Dude painted 300 such portraits "from memory" from Julius Caesar to Saladdin, including and the portrait of Tamerlan that you provided

[betta]

I’m not trying to argue, but where is the criterion of truth? History and sources, whom to believe? I am a supporter of conspiracy theory, so I’m trying not to trust anyone. How I determine who to believe in my business, but I believe least of all official sources.

[tlauicol]

then why do you trust the gentlemen who faded after Rezun to England or the USA? Gentlemen working at Harvard? Just because they pour in your ears a sweet and correct story about the purity and antiquity of the race and the great mission?
why some Western sources - the conspiracy and fake of the Vatican of the Anglo-Saxons and the Zhidomasons, and others of their own creations with the inscription Tartaria and Swiss English French Italian portraits of Tamerlane and Co. same period - eye candy?
Or is the great linguist who opened these very eyes for you the ancient Slavic and EtoRussian writing of Chudinov is your business that you trust? Of course, who wants to have a story in which we paid tribute and were defeated when the seeds of nationalism yearn for souls? It’s better if Grandpa Chu rubs the reading of ancient runes (including on replicas artifacts, on the Sun, comets, in the smoke of twin towers, on plaster, wallpaper and even (and this is not a joke) on the elephant’s ass, according to the enlarged photo). Indeed, why study the "bad" story "invented by the treacherous West" when you can hear the good, Slavic-Aryan!? Is it true written in the West modern, or decrypted by Chudin the Miracle in cracks on the elephant's ass? (He really took offense at the setup for a long time, but the job was done, and to this day he did not refuse the decryption method - well, what, people are hailing, money is dripping).

[tlauicol]

Sorry, the runes on the elephant’s ass didn’t master Chudinov - apparently he suspected the prankers, or was busy reading the plaster (he didn’t suspect read, decoded and told the world)

[co-creator]

Quote: Tlauicol

the great linguist, who opened these very eyes to you on the ancient Slavic and EtoRussian writing

So there were no Etruscans and writing too? Oh oh
So it was not Chudinov who deciphered it, but they did it before him.

[Han Tengri]

Quote: betta

Meet Tamerlan:

And you will meet! With
This is Emir Temur (Tamerlan). Reconstruction M.M. Gerasimova (according to the original, Tamerlane skull, if Che):
And you have some sad Magyar in the picture!

[Dzungar]

We had a grandfather in the ulus .. One on one with this Tamerlan ... Yes, and my face also looks like this Tamerlan ..... SchA I’ll catch fire ...!

[Cat]

Tamerlan was not Genghisguide, that is, a direct descendant of Genghis Khan in the male line. So it’s naive to assume that it is obviously unacceptable and ascribe to him the features and blood of the Stunner of the universe.
Well, the second explanation is that the little boy succeeded in the grandmother, or are you sure of the principle selection of brides and concubines by the Nukers of Genghis Khan.
If you want to eat a third. The great-grandfather of Timurlan after the destruction of his native tribe was below the axis of the cart wheel. He was taken up by the Mongolian nuker. Etc. the continuation of the story is yours .........
I wanted to drag cats, but I'm afraid of the Doctor with an enema. He quickly treats pseudoscientific fiction.

[avva2012]

He quickly treats pseudoscientific fiction.

I don’t even know if enemas will help for perverting science fiction!

For, Kira Bulycheva! For, Ivan Efremov! For Alexander Belyaev and Alexey Tolstoy! For Jules Verne, and Herbert Wells!

[Cat]

Bravo Doctor!
These are our guys !!!
It turns out that the life-giving enema with a "cat" does!

[avva2012]

So and only so! No revisionism! Feel free comrades in the foot / sneaker!

[3x3zsave]

This is the right approach to business! Only bullets should be silver. The usual only heaviness in the head of a “ghoul” is increased, increasing the sense of self-worth in one’s eyes.

[avva2012]

Good afternoon, Anton! You think this is not enough?

[3x3zsave]

Hello, Alexander! Do you feel sorry for silver for “good people”? Everyone is trying to get by with home stocks ...

[avva2012]

Checked. Effective and safe. Made in the USSR.

[3x3zsave]

Well, at least lap top.

[avva2012]

They used to lubricate arrows , and now, I think this is unnecessary.

[co-creator]

Quote: Kotischa

Genghis Khan.

Genghis Khan is translated as the eastern khan. There, these Genghisides run like mud, you and Kazakhs communicate there all through one descendants of Genghisides.

[Cat]

All right!
The proper name of the shock of the universe is Timuchin. He accepted the name Genghis Khan if I am not mistaken after conquering the roofing felts of China, the roofing felts of Khozrem.

[marline]

Quote: Kotischa

All right!
The proper name of the shock of the universe is Timuchin. He accepted the name Genghis Khan if I am not mistaken after conquering the roofing felts of China, the roofing felts of Khozrem.

And his last name was Borjigin.
Timuchin Bordzhigin - this is how a person with such a name and a surname can be Russian?))))

[Han Tengri]

Quote: merlin

Timuchin Bordzhigin - this is how a person with such a name and a surname can be Russian?))))

Easy! It would be a desire. Here: Timuchin Esugeevich Bordzhiginov - a little more and quite, almost Urus !!!

[Freeman]

Quote: HanTengri

Quote: merlin

Timuchin Bordzhigin - this is how a person with such a name and a surname can be Russian?))))

Easy! It would be a desire. Here: Timuchin Esugeevich Bordzhiginov - a little more and quite, almost Urus !!!

It's all about transcription.
Timofey Evseevich Borozdin - That's right.
/ surname Borozdin - In addition to the main literary meaning, the furrow in some dialects means "absurd, fussy man." /

[marline]

Quote: Freeman

Timofey Evseevich Borozdin - That's right.

Reminds me of a joke:
- What's your last name?
- Sugars.
- Or rather? Sakharovich.
- And more precisely?
- Zuckerman.

[Dzungar]

Quote: Kotischa

He took the name Genghis Khan if I’m not mistaken after conquering the roofing felts of China, the roofing felts of Khozrem

This is the middle name and at the same time the title ... It was named at the general meeting - kurultai, after the final unification of all the Mongolian tribes ...

[Dzungar]

Quotation: blooded man

you communicate with the Kazakhs there all through one descendants of Genghisides.

These are your brothers in fairy tales about the great past ....

[co-creator]

Quote: Dzungar

These are your brothers in fairy tales about the great past ...

I really have a great past, and you and the Kazakhs and other ordinary nomads who in the 19th century several thousand Russian ra..ko..m set.
Still want to discuss who has a great past and who has great mriy? You can discuss Prozhevalsky for example.

[Han Tengri]

Quotation: blooded man

I really have a great past, and you and the Kazakhs and other ordinary nomads who in the 19th century several thousand Russian ra..ko..m set.

Well, Duc, in the X | X century we put them "ra..ko..m" ... And in X ||| century - they are us ... Everything, in the order of things. Learn the dialectic "dear" You, our (three-copeck, in the sense) Natsik! Hegel's “Logic of Logic”, or the “Canon of Change” (made in China) to help you. Suddenly you will understand what is written there! Although .... wangyu - do not even try to read! Too complicated and subtle, all this, for your parallel-perpendicular brain.

[co-creator]

Quote: HanTengri

Well, Duc, in the X | X century we put them "ra..ko..m" ... And in X ||| century - they are us ... Everything, in the order of things.

It’s so easy to check whether a person is able to understand information or not. Enough is not a big provocation "ra..ko..m set" and you no longer perceive the text) It's not that who cheated whom, but in the "several thousand Russian." It shows who you are and who we are, what your civilization has achieved for thousands of years, and what we have achieved. We make history, and you are engaged in fairy tales.

Quote: HanTengri

Learn the dialectic "dear" You, our (three-copeck, in the sense) Natsik!

Oh oh It’s funny when people who remain at the level of development of the 14th century begin to joke about the “great history” of the people who create civilization and when they are put in place they start scribbling about the Natsiks) Dear, first you think who you are trying to belittle and who will not tell you your place in this world .

Quote: HanTengri

Hegel's "Logic of Logic" or the "Canon of Change" (made in China)

The logic is very simple. From any civilization, a legacy remains. What is left of you? Paper)

[Han Tengri]

Quotation: blooded man

It shows who you are and who we are, what your civilization has achieved for thousands of years, and what we have achieved.

An interesting compote turns out ... If you take into account that I am Russian and know perfectly well what our civilization has achieved and has not achieved, then, in the light of the above, I want to ask you 4 traditional Russian questions:
1) Who are you?
2) Where are you from?
3) Why are you here?
And (4) why are you so impudent?

[co-creator]

I am “Natsik” from a country with a “great past”

[Dzungar]

If you want to destroy your people-become a Natsik .... Clearly proven by the example of Hitler. In our case, the Russian people will survive, but apparently, by analogy with Hitler, you’ll have to die .... It’s a pity only the comparison is worthless - Hitler and some tiny amoeba-shaped Natsik with a funny nickname "conscript" .... In general, stop writing all crap from america

[co-creator]

Quote: Dzungar

If you want to destroy your people-become a Natsik ....

YOU are about your people? Self-critical.

[Dzungar]

It’s not so much what strikes me, something called the “consanguineous”, but the place where they come from ..... This is clearly something abnormal, because it cannot naturally turn out such an idiotic ....

[co-creator]

Quote: Dzungar

It’s not so much what strikes me, something called the “consanguineous”, but the place where they come from ..... This is clearly something abnormal, because it cannot naturally turn out such an idiotic ....

Continue to observe and discuss the "great past."

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Dzungar

What strikes me is not so much something called the “conspirator,” but the place where they come from ...

It is known from where! Remember: "Homeland is waiting for heroes, but p ... gives birth to..kow!" The question is not where they came from, but how they were made that way? Indeed, a person is not born with "predefined" logical thinking, the functions of "introspection", "system analysis" and the ability to extrapolate consequences, own decisions and actions! This is taught and taught. First in the family, then in the process of getting an education.

[Han Tengri]

PS Such as the “consanguineous” suffer from the so-called fragmentary thinking, their consciousness sees, as in a kaleidoscope, a lot of bright spots (facts, events), but they are not able to put them ALL into a single, logically consistent picture. And, all the more, she’s not able to reflect on the topic: “But am I right, have I made a mistake anywhere, have I taken all the factors into account in the analysis?”

[co-creator]

Quote: Dzungar

All that you have - A FEW TEN YEARS OF ANY WASTE LIFE, which you, the inhabitant of the madhouse, have not taught anything .... For the "great past" you cannot live ....

The conversation was not about me. I do not separate myself from my people and history.
And you don’t get sick.

[Dzungar]

Quotation: blooded man

I have a really great past

It says “you”, but nothing is said about your people .... Or do you go to the stage called by the people — finished b & l ...? And it is still unknown what kind of people you say ...

[co-creator]

Quote: Dzungar

It says “you”, but nothing is said about your people .... Or do you go to the stage called by the people — finished b & l ...? And it is still unknown what kind of people you say ...

You are a kind du.r.a.k. and you yourself do not understand this. The fact that you jumped off the topic, I appreciated.
That is, you don’t understand what kind of people I’m writing about, but just in case, I decided to make a joke about the “history of history”. Hyyy ..

[Dzungar]

You can mean any people you want, but all your actions are aimed at infringing on the Russian people, perverting their history, and apparently for the benefit of another, "God's chosen", as always happens ... Here it is apparently and it becomes clear with "your people" ..... As an option - you are running errands for this people ....

[co-creator]

Quote: Dzungar

but all your actions are aimed at infringing on the Russian people

How do I infringe on my people?

[Dzungar]

I have enough mind DO NOT DISCUSS my "great past", where there are only two wars, one order and one wound. But even if I had ten times more, I would still not talk about my “great past”, since you can only talk about the great past of a whole nation. And about your “great past” some regular Napoleon, John F. Kennedy, the envoy from Alpha Centauri can talk about - all your neighbors in the ward of the madhouse ....

[co-creator]

Quote: Dzungar

But even if I had ten times more - I would still not talk about my "great past",

An attempt to translate the conversation into personalities is not counted. In essence, there is something to say?

[Dzungar]

Your stupidity is so great that it obscures everything around, not allowing you to talk about something else. Even your jambs stuck in your face do not allow you to understand your inferiority and shut up, as it happens with at least a little bit of thinking people ....

[co-creator]

Quote: Dzungar

Your stupidity is so great that it obscures everything around, not allowing you to talk about something else.

No need to be nervous, I don't care about your rudeness.

Quote: Dzungar

Even your jambs stuck in your face do not allow you to understand your inferiority and shut up, as it happens with at least a little bit of thinking people ....

What did you put in there? What shoals, my dear. Has megalomania leaped?

[Dzungar]

The Russians did not see the Dzhungars in their eyes. Between them there were still Kazakhs .... Again you ....

[co-creator]

Pozhevalsky saw you. It's enough.

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Dzungar

These are your brothers in fairy tales about the great past ..

Quotation: blooded man

I really have a great past, and you and the Kazakhs and other ordinary nomads who in the 19th century several thousand Russian ra..ko..m set.

Axiom: Scrape the “alternative”, and Natsik will spit on you.

[co-creator]

Quote: HanTengri

Axiom: Scrape the “alternative”, and Natsik will spit on you.

Axiom: "Do not try to joke on the people and their history against which you are dust and you will be respected"

[tasha]

Axiom: "Do not try to joke on the people and their history against which you are dust and you will be respected"

I will fit.
You frankly skidded. And for no reason. There was no banter ... And now it will be. Specifically above you, "conscript":

The people, we run up. Greatness came out of it, no matter how it splashed ...
https://coub.com/view/t88kj

[co-creator]

Quote: tasha

I will fit.
You frankly skidded. And for no reason. There was no banter ...

since you don’t know how to read, then you don’t need to get in.

Quote: tasha

And now it will be. Specifically above you, "conscript":

I'll pay you ... they clone you

[tasha]

I didn’t want to offend you somehow .. But from reading your comments I get the impression of some kind of aggressive stupidity or something .. Sorry ..
Not interested...

[co-creator]

Quote: tasha

I didn’t want to offend you somehow .. But from reading your comments I get the impression of some kind of aggressive stupidity or something .. Sorry ..
Not interested...

I didn’t want to and immediately insulted you) You’re all about selection.
You should follow your thought process.

[tasha]

Actually, "I didn’t want to .." refers to my comment above from 07: 11

And aggressive stupidity is not an insult, it is the impression of communicating with you. Do I need it? Good luck ...

[long in stock.]

yes yes ... we are all aggressive bastards here and you are one beautiful and fluffy ... only this does not happen ..

[Dzungar]

That's exactly it. These neophytes of some kind of sect are ALWAYS DULL AND AGGRESSIVE

[Curious]

Whiskers! Which Carpini, which Rashid ad Din? Who saw them? Or at least who saw their birth certificates? It's generally funny to talk about the Chinese. All Chinese annals were created as directed by Mao Zedong during the Cultural Revolution.
All written and archaeological evidence is fabricated in workshops, the placement of which has been known since the VIII century (see Papal State).
The illustrations show real events. But!!! This is not Mongolia! This is a civil war between the Tunguska and European branches of the superethnos, expertly provoked by the treacherous masters of the West. The Vatican’s library still holds secret protocols with action plans, lists of agents of influence and their written reports, on the basis of which payment was made with silver coins. There are reports of Germans who rewrote the history of the superethnos in accordance with the manuals of the world behind the scenes. Threads from this insidious activity stretch in our days. All to fight the machinations of the owners of the West!

[long in stock.]

I watch the great arias and they got you ... right down to the asgard ...

[Cartalon]

Sarcasm, no, not heard.

[mar4047083]

V.N. it is like remorseful of the "hireling" of the West.

[3x3zsave]

Give? !! Give !!! Our protorossky: "Give!"

[Cat]

Quote: 3x3zsave

Give? !! Give !!! Our protorossky: "Give!"

One more! Doctor carry TWO ENEMIES !!!

[Cat]

Quote: Curious

Whiskers! Which Carpini, which Rashid ad Din? Who saw them? Or at least who saw their birth certificates? It's generally funny to talk about the Chinese. All Chinese annals were created as directed by Mao Zedong during the Cultural Revolution.
All written and archaeological evidence is fabricated in workshops, the placement of which has been known since the VIII century (see Papal State).
The illustrations show real events. But!!! This is not Mongolia! This is a civil war between the Tunguska and European branches of the superethnos, expertly provoked by the treacherous masters of the West. The Vatican’s library still holds secret protocols with action plans, lists of agents of influence and their written reports, on the basis of which payment was made with silver coins. There are reports of Germans who rewrote the history of the superethnos in accordance with the manuals of the world behind the scenes. Threads from this insidious activity stretch in our days. All to fight the machinations of the owners of the West!

Doctor, Doctor to the rescue "nibble epidemic" and grab an enema, we’ll be treating Viktor! I personally will keep it, and you, like that little one. I don’t have time to say meow.
R.s. Dear Victor, you are more careful with such jokes, otherwise I would have grabbed a kondrashka after your post a little more. Still, Malekho stutters.

[Curious]

Venya turned me over. He promised support in the development of the history of ancient ukrov. I could not refuse.

[3x3zsave]

Now I’ll even let you down the theoretical basis. For example, the Anglo-Saxon term "fayn" comes from the Western Ukrainian "fayn", and, as a consequence, from the ancient Venetian "phenomenal". This fact undeniably proves the kinship of protoucurs and Wends. But Wends are older! "Sturmbanfuhrer also wanted to, but the junta managed before."

[3x3zsave]

"Oh pleasure - glide along the edge!
Hang on, angels, look, I'm playing!
Leave the analysis of my sins for the time being
You will appreciate the beauty of the game! "
(t / f "12 chairs")

[Luga]

Quote: Curious

Whiskers! Which Carpini, which Rashid ad Din? Who saw them?

Curious, dear, did not expect from you such ardor and passion. I will refrain from developing your, without exaggeration, powerful theses and appeals, for they are final and self-sufficient. Accept my weak contribution to the treasury of your advantages.

[co-creator]

Quote: Curious

It's generally funny to talk about the Chinese. All Chinese annals were created as directed by Mao Zedong during the Cultural Revolution.

Who knows when they were created, nobody saw the ancient chronicles in their eyes. In Europe, they even wrote on birch bark and leather, but here the paper has decayed.

[long in stock.]

actually, the Chinese often wrote on silk. especially the imperial decrees ... this is for you in the treasury of the general development. otherwise, the horizons are small on the same klesove with a fomen.

[co-creator]

Quote: Long in stock.

actually, the Chinese often wrote on silk. especially imperial decrees ... uh

Are there decrees on silk? Type of paper was a pity?

Quote: Long in stock.

and then on the same klesove with a fomen a small outlook.

What do I have to do with it?

[Dimmih]

Quotation: blooded man

It is unnatural as well as winter after spring. The Mongols are not the only nomads on earth, but for some reason there were no avalanches anywhere else.
A nomad raids while remaining a nomad or ruining a local state, he himself becomes a sedentary people (mass examples). It cannot be otherwise.

Well, how was it? Hunnu and the great migration of peoples, have not heard? Arrival of the Indo-Aryans in Iran and Hindustan? Resettlement of Bantu-speaking tribes in Africa, Arab conquests. The arrival of Jews to the promised land, the conquest of the motherland by the Hungarians. Take a history textbook on the history of the Ancient World and read, wonder how much you missed at school.

[co-creator]

Quote: Dimmih

Quotation: blooded man

It is unnatural as well as winter after spring. The Mongols are not the only nomads on earth, but for some reason there were no avalanches anywhere else.
A nomad raids while remaining a nomad or ruining a local state, he himself becomes a sedentary people (mass examples). It cannot be otherwise.

Well, how was it? Hunnu and the great migration of peoples, have not heard? Arrival of the Indo-Aryans in Iran and Hindustan? Resettlement of Bantu-speaking tribes in Africa, Arab conquests. The arrival of Jews to the promised land, the conquest of the motherland by the Hungarians. Take a history textbook on the history of the Ancient World and read, wonder how much you missed at school.

Excuse me so the Mongols it was a migration of peoples? Then why didn’t they move anywhere?
Hungarians, Arabs, Jews founded their own states, ceasing to lead a nomadic lifestyle.
The Mongols did not move anywhere and still roam.

[Dimmih]

So you yourself answered above your own question above: A nomad raids while remaining a nomad or ruining a local state, he himself becomes a settled people (there are a lot of examples). It cannot be otherwise. A good answer, the correct one is either a nomad settles on the ground, or wanders on. Here. Arabs still roam in the desert. Gypsies (much like Indo-Aryans) also partly roam. You ask a question that you yourself have answered, moreover, correctly!

[co-creator]

Quote: Dimmih

You ask a question that you yourself have answered, moreover, correctly!

Well, it follows from this that the Mongol empire is presented with nonsense. No Golden Horde could politically control Russia, since it itself was engaged in a nomadic way of life.

[long in stock.]

to emphasize the importance .... in your language-type for Pontus ...

[co-creator]

and where can you see these show-offs?

I was not too lazy and looked just in case, checked myself so to speak. All preserved written libraries of the 17-19th century.

[long in stock.]

poorly looked ... or not there .... The first surviving ancient Chinese texts on silk were discovered in 1936-1937 during non-professional excavations near Changsha. In one of the burials, a 30x39 cm scroll of silk was discovered, which was soon sold in the United States. It was decorated with multi-colored drawings and contained a previously unknown text of cosmological content from two groups of hieroglyphs: 13 lines of 34 characters and 8 lines of 36 characters. During excavations in Mawandui in 1973-1974, silk scrolls were discovered - one 24 cm wide, the other 48 cm - placed in a lacquer box. then - for yourself. Seek and find. The truth is in teaching ...

[co-creator]

You talked about the decrees of the emperor? What do these decrees do in burials?

[Freeman]

Quotation: blooded man

Quote: Curious

It's generally funny to talk about the Chinese. All Chinese annals were created as directed by Mao Zedong during the Cultural Revolution.

Who knows when they were created, nobody saw the ancient chronicles in their eyes. In Europe, they even wrote on birch bark and leather, but here the paper has decayed.

Before the invention of paper, the Chinese wrote on bamboo tablets, stitching them into scroll books

Threat. And the expression "To smoke bamboo", this is an ancient Chinese analogue of the expression - "To bite the granite of science."

[co-creator]

Quote: Freeman

Before the invention of paper, the Chinese wrote on bamboo tablets, stitching them into scroll books

That's right, but before the 17th century such tablets did not survive.

[Some kind of compote]

Empire of Genghisides - great power was
It’s interesting to know about the details of the army
Excellent!

[Cherkashin Ivan]

Many thanks to the author. In found a shelf of science-fooled, minions of the pope and the Jewish masons arrived)
And for fans of Fomenko and others like him, I recommend reading about the search for the descendants of Genghis Khan. According to geneticists (and you love this science so much), Genghis Khan has about 16 million male relatives.

[Severomor]

Quote: Cherkashin Ivan

Genghis Khan has about 16 million male relatives

What ethnic groups did 4 myos take from? 16-4 = 12. Clear business - 12 million Kazakhs (Assessment 01.01.2017/4/XNUMX) - there are all heirs with a pedigree, and XNUMX mio ???? where ???

[Cherkashin Ivan]

Reduction from one million to one million, not myo. I don’t find fault, it was just hard to understand what you were writing. I am talking about relatives, not about nations. The flows of Genghis Khan can now belong to any nation, even to the Scots (he will consider himself a Scots and look like a Scot), but he will have a gene from Genghis Khan. But the study was conducted in Asian countries. Such a number of descendants could be left if he himself was a prolific guy and all his descendants were at the top of power and could spend .. everything that moves without consequences for himself.

[Severomor]

Quote: Cherkashin Ivan

I am talking about relatives, not about nations

So this is one and the same: Relatives of Genghis Khan = People of Kazakhstan. Those. 12 million people definitely there.
I just got an opinion (I think I don’t have one) from reading the "historical" section of the site

[co-creator]

Quote: Cherkashin Ivan

According to geneticists (and you love this science so much), Genghis Khan has about 16 million male relatives.

Sorry, but which institute was specifically involved in this and how?

[Cherkashin Ivan]

Let me use your quote:
"What is banned in Google? On, catch"
From here you can dig to the source:
http://www.nature.com/news/genghis-khan-s-genetic
-legacy-has-competition-1.16767

[co-creator]

It seems to be written there that this is all a guess and they are looking for the source. Corpse in short)

[Alex1117]

And what, under the microscope on these genes, did you see the inscription Made in Genghis Khan? Or maybe it's some other loving prince who has guided so many children? In fact, there is only certain reason to believe that 16 million people have one male ancestor. But the fact that the ancestor is supposedly the same Genghis Khan is just the so-called “insight” of historians.

[Artek]

Quote: Tlauicol

Klesov - a false professor, academy named after himself? (if you want to become a professor too - pay Klesov, well, or as an assistant professor if you feel sorry for the money).

Well, the turn is behind him for DNA analysis, everyone believes.

Quote: Tlauicol

Renegade Klesov must not be trusted - he is for the Slavs

and you for whom, for the Jews?

[tlauicol]

those. that he quack doesn't bother you at all? impostor? - Yes, do not care! the saddest thing is that these “patriots” do not even care that they are a charlatan working for American money — well, at least for shekels, he would only write to you about thoroughbredness and passion.
By the way, about the Jews (no offense to the Jews, I write this for the Dolboslavs) - they asked him in the Scytho-America pedigree for Jews for 20 thousand. years to paint - nothing, lost! and already heaped up articles, no less than about the Slavs. well, money doesn't smell!

[Artek]

Quote: Tlauicol

.e. that he quack doesn't bother you at all? impostor?

why an impostor? If DNA genealogy is still not a science, then it is a promising scientific direction.

Quote: Tlauicol

By the way, about the Jews (no offense to the Jews, I write this for the Dolboslavs) - they asked him in the Scytho-America pedigree for Jews for 20 thousand. years to paint - nothing, lost! and already heaped up articles, no less than about the Slavs. well, money doesn't smell!

it works for the Jews too, and stands behind the mountain for traditional history, well, except for the Tatars of Mongol.

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Artek

why an impostor? If DNA genealogy is still not a science, then it is a promising scientific direction.

A "promising scientific direction" was born long before the Klesian opuses and this scientific discipline is called "Population Genetics." And so, yes, Klesov is not an impostor at all and never a plagiarist! But how can you think of such a good person? He, after all, so pleasantly spoils our own, Slavic-Aryan importance in wool.

[Artek]

some nasty things you say.

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Artek

some nasty things you say.

Oh! Sorry! Well, I didn’t admit that you didn’t kiss the navel of a kissed girl-gymnasium girl, for whom the first read, after “Squirrel Troubles”, “Kolobok” and “Mu-mu” (science-fiction nonsense) (crossed out) “scientific” article is “ Bible "and" Symbol of Faith "in one bottle.

[voyaka uh]

Klesov - a well-known biochemist, not du_r__ak (they don’t keep oaks at Harvard)
, but carried away by history and genetics, he began to adjust genetics to his own pseudo-historical theories. (After all, Fomenko was also an excellent mathematician, and what did his pseudo-historical theories result in?)
It is not Klesov personally who needs to be criticized, but his fit of genetic data to anthropology and history.

[co-creator]

Quote: Tlauicol

.e. that he quack doesn't bother you at all? impostor? - Yes, do not care!

That is, science GENETICS does not exist or what? He does not do tests in his laboratory and takes the DNA obtained at the RAMS as a basis. Do you even understand what science is? This is not a piece of paper for you.

[voyaka uh]

Genetics is a science. But, unfortunately, the data from genetic samples,
their statistics, they began to adjust to the framework of pre-invented results -
pseudo-historical theories. Since one "step" in such studies is 2-3 thousand years,
then within one “step” there may be hundreds of global movements of peoples, wars,
natural disasters that turn out to be ignored.

[co-creator]

Oh, what scoundrels, what scoundrels) They drove everything, but historians didn’t push anything and are pure angels) Your trolling is counted.

[gladcu2]

Thanks to the author. Very informative.

Given the topic that fraud is possible. Only fire was added, and there will be even more smoke.

You look at these “warriors” with arrows ... And then you’ll be amazed at technologies that are older than these “warriors”.

Does not fit. A lot does not fit. Look on YouTube, there are a lot of investigations. I don’t even want to start arguing.

[NF68]

In order to produce such weapons, the Mongols would have to have a sufficiently developed state from which many would have to remain, albeit in the form of numerous ruins. Like on the Mediterranean coast or in places where Indians used to live in Latin and Central America.

[Cartalon]

The arrowhead can also be forged in Altai, and the rest is obtained by an arrow and a lasso, do you also deny the Vikings? From them, too, great cities were left.

[co-creator]

Quote: Cartalon

The arrowhead can also be forged in Altai, and the rest is obtained by an arrow and a lasso, do you also deny the Vikings? From them, too, great cities were left.

Arrow and lasso to take the state and at the same time remain nomads?
Is there nothing left of the Vikings? You are kind of going to England to enlighten you there.

[NF68]

To be faster than something, you need the presence of this very something that will be slower than our fast ship.

And where is the rest, past the arrows and lassos? I just don’t deny the Vikings because there are a lot of them left behind the arrows and lassos you mentioned.

[Ostrovsky]

Thanks to the author. As always an interesting article.

[BRONEVIK]

The powerful influence of Chinese statehood on the Mongolian is evident - which is noticeable in relation to items of equipment and weapons.
Japan was on the verge, Europe was battered.
Cool!

[Thunderbolt]

It is very interesting to read, thanks a lot for the material.

[Dooplet11]

Mongols (ethnic) served as a catalyst for the migration of peoples. As a single lump of snow, it serves as an avalanche catalyst. There is nothing unnatural that other nomadic ethnic groups followed a small number of ethnic Mongols. There is nothing surprising in the fact that this movement ended on the other side of the world with the name of the Mongols, but almost without their participation.

[co-creator]

It is unnatural as well as winter after spring. The Mongols are not the only nomads on earth, but for some reason there were no avalanches anywhere else.
A nomad raids while remaining a nomad or ruining a local state, he himself becomes a sedentary people (mass examples). It cannot be otherwise.

[Dooplet11]

Huns? Goths? Khazars? Polovtsy? Kipchaks?

A nomad raids while remaining a nomad or ruining a local state, he himself becomes a sedentary people (mass examples). It cannot be otherwise.

But this is completely at the top! This is what happened with the nomadic invasion / ejection initiated by Genghis and the first Genghisids.

[co-creator]

Quote: Dooplet11

Huns? Goths? Khazars? Polovtsy? Kipchaks?

Huns, Goths, Khazars, Polovtsy, where are they? There are no more peoples under this name. Kipchaks seem to have remained, but this is a small Kazakh tribe like. The Mongols, having built an empire and conquered the floor of the world, then suddenly again turn into a primitive state and are where they were originally.

[Dooplet11]

The Mongols, having built an empire and conquered the floor of the world, then suddenly again turn into a primitive state and are where they were originally.

But does anyone claim that the Mongols built an empire?
They gave rise to a wave of intervention, leading it as an active part of their ethnic group. And then...
Then "A nomad raids while remaining a nomad or ruining a local state, he himself becomes a sedentary people (lots of examples). There can be no other way."

[co-creator]

Quote: Dooplet11

But does anyone claim that the Mongols built an empire?

Official historical science says so.

Quote: Dooplet11

They gave rise to a wave of intervention, leading it as an active part of their ethnic group. And then...

This is unscientific)

Quote: Dooplet11

Then "A nomad raids while remaining a nomad or ruining a local state, he himself becomes a sedentary people (lots of examples). There can be no other way."

Then you need to acknowledge the IGO as fiction or try to understand what it really was. That is, in fact, HISTORY needs to be reviewed and science really made out of it.

[3x3zsave]

Vyacheslav Olegovich, great article!

[Doliva63]

More is written about worthy people about Atlantis than about the Mongol miracle, but this does not add to its reliability So we are waiting for archaeological discoveries, otherwise everything is an idle chatter about nothing.

[Net]

And so the science of science is created - to pass off a remake of the 18-19th century as "products of the era of" Mongol "conquests."
- "This" Description "contains the story of the South Sun ambassador Zhao Hong, who visited Yanjing in 1221 with the commander-in-chief of the Mongolian forces in northern China, Mukhali."
But is there nothing that between the South Sun Chinese and the "Mongols" there was a "golden empire" of the Chjurjens hostile to them, which would have nailed these ambassadors without talking? What else are there Tanguts, boobs, whitefish, Khitan. And it is to the Mongols that the South Sun (Chinese) ambassadors. Wah. Why not to Antarctica?
This "Description" could appear only after the death of the "Golden Empire" from the "Mongols" after 1234, or rather, after its repeated fall around 1330. The Chinese are famous liars.
By the way, where are the “Mongolian” and Tibetan arrows in the Zolotarevsky ancient settlement? Well, if 1-2 is remotely like.
We open the source, written (and painted) by Tibetans personally - Atlas of Tibetan medicine. M: Galart, 1994 fig. 29.19. The age of the source is approximately 1600 years. (It is necessary, there is also a foreign publication, Swiss). Wow, and Tibetan arrows have little in common with the Zolotarevsky and (oh, horror!) With the New York.
Maybe the author would first figure out who the "Mongols" are?
http://trip-dv.ru/object/624

[Cat]

Quote: 3x3zsave

Give? !! Give !!! Our protorossky: "Give!"

One more! Doctor carry TWO ENEMIES !!!

[avva2012]

Doctor carry TWO ENEMIES !!!

[kalibr]

Quote: Doliva63

So we are waiting for archaeological discoveries

Why wait? Everything has long been open. Lots of finds. Less than we would like, but for a nomadic culture this is normal. On Atlantis there is only ONLY "Timaeus and Critias" - and EVERYTHING! There is a difference?

[co-creator]

Quote: kalibr

Why wait? Everything has long been open. Lots of finds.

Yah . How's the Kulikovo battle doing?
How is the capital of the Golden Horde, how many pots were found?

[kalibr]

The 14-volume archeology of the USSR laid out on the Web is at your service. There are monographs by Pletneva and Khudyakov (more about them will be later). Take it, read it. Thinking without knowledge is harmful.

[co-creator]

This knowledge is described in history textbooks in shaggy years. It’s as if I’m used to comparing not the opinions of others for truth, but to compare them.

As you find Kulikovo field, please inform. At the same time, and Dvurechensky, otherwise he wrote the whole theory a la Fomenko.

[Han Tengri]

Quotation: blooded man

As you find Kulikovo field, please inform.

So you tell us, Siri, what do you think we should find to convince you that this is really Kulikovo Field! And then, here, Dvurechensky forgot to ask you and found something wrong and certainly not there! (No, well. It's really some kind of crap! It was necessary to Kulikovo field, according to the precepts of a conspirator, to look for this one ... I dug up some Donskoy battle of Don!)

[co-creator]

Quote: HanTengri

So you tell us, Siri, what do you think we should find to convince you that this is really Kulikovo Field!

Well, there’s the same chronicle where it’s described in the sandstone field. Kindly find what is described there, but what you want.

Quote: HanTengri

And then, here, Dvurechensky forgot to ask you and found something wrong and certainly not there! (No, well. It's really some kind of crap! It was necessary to Kulikovo field, according to the precepts of a conspirator, to look for this one ... I dug up some Donskoy battle of Don!)

Dvurechensky unearthed a small clash of two small detachments, which he himself speaks of. Then he turns on the Fomenko mode and begins to explain that the chroniclers themselves did not understand what they were writing because this could not be. You are quite happy with this explanation, but for some reason, when the same trick does the tricks or Fomenko does not suit you))

[Dzungar]

Your trouble is that destroying the old story, YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO WRITE A NEW. Therefore, a lot of people will fight for the right to write it, the only true one. As those whom we already know, as well as some others who suddenly realized that they have a chance to become rich and famous. Yes, you can be .... As a result, you all overreact and maybe even wrangle, perhaps even with your feet. In general - NICHRENA YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE. Stay with nothing. And if, after all this, one of you survives and at least a drop of reason remains, you will quietly look for those works that you are laughing at now, and finally read them. With a beating heart and trembling hands from undercurrent of happiness, from the realization of his wrongness and touching the Truth .........

[doka]

I read the comments and understood one thing all from the realm of science fiction, whether life is unknown on Mars or not, and I really want to see the brothers. Now, in fact, there wasn’t any video and photo then, Which artist paints a portrait of 100 percent certainty or the writer doesn’t put his own 5 kopecks for the sake of yourself or the customer. No one on the ball did not do anything. The fact that history is distorted is not any doubt. There is only logic and a bit of facts, it is true how people’s brains worked 1000 years ago, a question that no one answers, I think there was no yoke and no conquests, the clan-clan system subjugated one clan to another Tatar, you Urus, the Tungus does not matter who is stronger he is right. So empires were created. And as for assimilation, what do you think will happen to the Chinese if he lives among the Russians in a hundred years he will look at the world with wide eyes and after 200 he will be erased the Russian gene will be dominant, and after another 500 years the smart professor will look for it in a test tube. Well, if you pin it, only the receipts are reliable because it’s sacred that there were always hucksters on papyrus, on birch bark or on clay. People in those days ran where they wanted passports, then there wasn’t just face control and a coin. Well, if the crowd is a couple of thousand then it’s possible. You have to look at history easier, people then lived, worked and died as they do now, We do not differentiate between them, that there is no war, that we do not pay tax. We have our own feudal lords, kings, empire. And you oppressed the spears there was no yoke I know that the great Mongols dosihpor go for a yurt and wipe their asses with sand, If someone considers that these alien brothers had his ancestors so be it. I personally don’t think so

[Luga]

The fourth hour of the night. I read the article and comments to the end (I started in the afternoon, distracted).
Dear kalibr, personally accept my gratitude for the work. I would say that your article is timely and relevant if it were not timely and relevant one, three, five years ago. And if we take into account the fact that it will also be relevant in a year, and three, and five (if not more), then its current, current relevance simply dissolves in the eternity of its past and future relevance. In, bent, but it's me on purpose.
The author you know, I do not want to mention his name in the dead of night, started a war. He tried hard and long to do this while we (and you, including yes ) with patience peculiar to the Russian man, they looked at his historical obscurantism with kindness, he increased the number of his followers, and now they will have to fight with them. Do not stop, dear. Three articles will certainly not be enough. I understand that this Lernean hydra of Fomenkovism is indestructible overnight, but you are quite able to reduce the number of its mental slaves by your efforts. For my part, you can count on full understanding and support in this struggle.
Thanks for the article, Regards, Michael

[co-creator]

Are you a sectarian too?

[long in stock.]

he’s just a person who not only reads but thinks about what he’s read. and you just blindly believe ... this also distinguishes the Soviet school from the e-school ..

[co-creator]

Quote: Long in stock.

he’s just a person who not only reads but thinks about what he’s read. and you just blindly believe ... this also distinguishes the Soviet school from the e-school ..

What do I blindly believe in? That there was no yoke, as described in the annals? Or what?

[long in stock.]

so I think .. well, what do you believe ... but ... in the annals is it lying? yours to reject you .. there is nothing more for people to do ...

[co-creator]

Quote: Long in stock.

but .. in the chronicles then they lie?

lying damned, I will not deny. Although here I am a villain, because at that time everyone was honest, like angels, not like the current little people.

Quote: Long in stock.

and about Kulikovo field lie

Judging by the fact that they can’t find it in any way, apparently the reality is very far from the work of art.

Quote: Long in stock.

the main thing lies only in order to reject you from your faith.

No, they lie because people. Why do people lie? There are many reasons for this.

Quote: Long in stock.

people have nothing more to do ...

Maybe they have something to do, but that's what they are doing.
You do not tell me how many Stalin personally killed millions?

[kalibr]

Thank you Michael! What do you answer? You understand that to cope with ignorance is not enough not only THREE, but also HUNDREDs of articles. Actually, I often fall into the trap - I want to write, and then I think, but who did not know this? But it turns out ... necessary. But you won’t write about everything at once. For example, the "Soviet theme". Not far from my work is a patriarch. And I can go there and sit in the cold. 5 documents day !!! And only ... Everything is not digitalized, of course. And I need to eat by the clock and only homemade food. That is ... stretched to ... "Russian theme" - the regional archive in 10 minutes walk. Everyone there knows me, sit and work with whatever you want. But ... he is packed to the eyeballs with "fragrant grandmothers" who are looking for their pedigrees there. Nonresident graduate students are still being allowed in ... The line is engaged with 8.00. How to work?
Historical themes ... here it is easier on the one hand. I wrote where I needed to - I got what you ask, but ... money! Not always paying off. Or topics like the Mongols. My doctoral theme is English-language historiography (and of course, ours is in comparison). That is, you have to shovel mountains of books in English. lang., and in Russ. lang and only then write. The text novelty level for VO is acceptable for me - 92%. That is, to write - it takes time. Therefore, it is sometimes not possible to make a series of the required volume. Roughly speaking, it goes into the hands itself, and you write about that. In relation to the "Mongols", again, everything is there: Pletneva, Khudyakov, Solovyov, Gorelik seem to have scraped everything ... But people are just too lazy to read. Simply so: "The cow of Jacob hardened about one thing and about everything!". Alas! The degradation of society began not only here, but everywhere. So we reap only its results! Here, supportive therapy will not help much. But the radical - alas, does not exist!

[Luga]

Quote: kalibr

But the radical - alas, does not exist!

There was an attempt to create - the Holy Inquisition. It’s not suitable for us, you’re right, although sometimes personally sinful thoughts climb into my head . It only stops the idea of ​​who will be the inquisitor, because you don’t want to take on such responsibility yourself, but entrusting such a matter to others is also scary, you know ...
Okay, jokes with jokes, and you can and should fight these obscurantists. Unfortunately, there is really no other way than enlightenment.
By the way, another question. When will the next installment of War of the Roses come out? My hands are already itching to bring constructive criticism.

[coach colch]

To be honest, the article is interesting to someone from Mongolians or Orientalists ...
I’m more interested in an article from our recent past, written here on VO comrade. Ilya Polonsky
https://topwar.ru/74604-pomosch-stepey-mongoly-ve
rnye-soyuzniki-velikoy-otechestvennoy.html

[kalibr]

Quote: Artek

however, Klesov’s people are in the queue, it means the matter is true or almost.

“But you know yourself: the meaningless mob is Changeable, rebellious, superstitious, It is easily betrayed by empty hope, Obedient to prompting, For the deaf and indifferent to the truth, And it feeds on fables ...” A. Pushkin.

[kalibr]

Quotation: blooded man

But the trouble is, no one knows in which city they were based, as the name of the main Baskak, what was their number and why they gave the collected taxes ... to the Russian prince.

Where did these absurdities come from? Read why Ivan Kalita went to the Horde and what he sought ...

[co-creator]

Quote: kalibr

Where did these absurdities come from?

What is the absurdity?) A lot of works have been written about the Baskakov and no one has ever named the location of this "procurator". There are many assumptions about who the Basques are, starting from tribute collectors on behalf of the Grand Duke and ending with the actual Khan’s governors.

For example, the procurators of Judea are known by name.

[Dimmih]

Quote: voyaka uh

And I to you (in gratitude) I'll post a version: Vikings are Russians. Why?
Vikings are seafarers. So the sailors. Mat dew. Dew is Russ. Russians.
Mat - expressed obscenely (you begin to express yourself there in a storm on fragile little boats).
That is, sailors are Russians who use mate in speech. So - the Vikings.

Verily, eye balm read it! Hosanna in the highest! And the coastal Russians were called Etruscans, since the sailors spoke disparagingly about them, Russians, waved and swore obscenities as a sign of neglect of the land inhabitants.

[parma]

Thank you so much for the article! True, your articles do not keep pace with the number of articles on the Jewish masons and Martians who lie about the Mongols, but the quality is far ahead!
By the way, why don't you draw parallels in the article with the great migration of peoples that destroyed the Roman Empire, because the example of the Mongols is not the first and very similar to the Huns ...

[brn521]

Judging by the discussion, one of the shortcomings of the school history course is visible. Serving large volumes of almost useless trash from dates and names. Against the background of which real mechanisms are lost. For example, the climate. Small ice age of 14-18 centuries. What was he like in Siberia? Spring in June, autumn in August. Plus irregular frosts in summer. This is enough to recycle any state along with history and mythology. Metallurgy also went there - there was no surplus to feed artisans in principle. The Chukchi or Aleuts could be engaged in metallurgy with the same success. Nomads partially lay in feuds (judging by the Indians of the Great Plains of the 19th century, the main way to make up for losses among nomads is to squeeze resources from a neighboring tribe), partially went to warmer climes, mainly to China. There were a few half-starved survivors.

[Lord_Raven]

Quote: brn521

Judging by the discussion, one of the shortcomings of the school history course is visible. Serving large volumes of almost useless trash from dates and names. Against the background of which real mechanisms are lost.

Rather, the problem is that many of the commentators have an idea of ​​historical processes exclusively at the level of the school course, which, as a result, opens up wide scope for activity to various alternatively gifted "specialists" in the field of historical science. Note that neither Nosovsky-Fomenko nor his ilk ever try to have a discussion with experts, but immediately start translating arrows, such as "your story is biased or official science is lying," but at the same time the burden of proof of being wrong is constantly shifted to opponents. And this often rolls, because in this case any dispute slides into a situation where the "official" historian operates with documentary evidence and other factors, and the opponent from the alternative party taldych about "substitution", "falsification", etc., without this is no evidence. Naturally, sooner or later, the discussion ends with nothing, but for the inexperienced viewer in many respects legalizes alternative theories as part of historical science.

[co-creator]

Quote: Lord_Raven

Note that neither Nosovsky-Fomenko nor his ilk ever try to lead a discussion with experts,

What are you attached to them? They make money and well done. They tried to conduct discussions, but stumbled upon "you don’t understand anything and generally you are nobody." Your so-called specialists are exactly the same as these two, only the first types are ignoramuses, and the latter cannot conduct dialogue (although they are supposed to be assigned by status)

Quote: Lord_Raven

when an “official” historian operates on documentary evidence and other factors,

Yeah, direct annals are such documents as much as all documents documents. The native is still debating how many bayonets fought in the battle of Borodino. Different historians understand the same event and reading the same documents in different ways and draw different conclusions. If you just REMEMBER that the MAN wrote a chronicle who has his own understanding of events, has bosses, has human weaknesses, then everything becomes sad at all.

Quote: Lord_Raven

an alternative party taldychit about "substitution", "falsification", etc.,

there would never have been an alternative, if the right kind of historians weren’t forgiven .. here, it just needs to be understood.

[Lord_Raven]

Excellent speech, brilliantly illustrating what was said earlier.

Quotation: blooded man

Yeah, direct annals are such documents as much as all documents documents. The native is still debating how many bayonets fought in the battle of Borodino.

Please, explain on the factual material the reasons for your distrust in the annals. To begin, indicate which chronicles you have in mind (or which list), then, if you pretend to be objective in your judgments, you should conduct internal and external criticisms of the sources and evaluate existing research in this area (historiography of the problem). In the meantime, you completely fit into the type of a standard supporter of folk histories: "all historians are bad, everyone lies, but I know everything, but take my word for it." Zero facts, some estimates.

Quotation: blooded man

Your so-called specialists are exactly the same as these two, only the first types are ignoramuses, and the latter cannot conduct dialogue (although they are supposed to be assigned by status)

Zvezdezh pure water. Have you been banned in Google? If not, then find D.M. Volodikhina, V. Shnirelmana, a collection of "antifomenko" and many others are not a problem at all.

[co-creator]

Quote: Lord_Raven

Please, explain on the factual material the reasons for your distrust in the annals.

Do you think this can be explained on such a forum?
To quickly close this question. For example, the Kulikovo battle, a very revealing example.

Quote: Lord_Raven

In the meantime, you completely fit into the type of a standard supporter of folk histories: "all historians are bad, everyone lies, but I know everything, but take my word for it." Zero facts, some estimates.

Yes, of course, historians never lie, because they are angels in the flesh.

Quote: Lord_Raven

Zvezdezh pure water. Have you been banned in Google? If not, then find D.M. Volodikhina, V. Shnirelmana, a collection of "antifomenko" and many others are not a problem at all.

So this is a discussion, but the usual "you, yourself." Fomenko will write his new “against anti-Fomenkovin” to all “anti-Fomenkovschina”. In general, to refute the Fomenkovsky chronology in all seriousness, this still needs to be managed, it seems that they are in conspiracy)

[Lord_Raven]

Quotation: blooded man

Do you think this can be explained on such a forum?
To quickly close this question. For example, the Kulikovo battle, a very revealing example.

A good example of what? How to demonstrate your own ignorance? Or ignorance of factual material? Or the influence of reptilians from Alpha Centauri on the Jew-Masson plot in Burundi? If you say A, then say B, otherwise your participation in the discussion does not make any sense.

Quotation: blooded man

Yes, of course, historians never lie, because they are angels in the flesh.

Again, an evaluation characteristic and no evidence. For example, in relation to the topic of discussion, namely, the Mongol-Tatar invasion and weapons used by the Batu forces, you can demonstrate the inconsistency of the conclusions of Russian historical science, relying on existing archaeological and documentary materials and using the reference apparatus, so that it is clear where you got the material from analysis and justification of their own conclusions? Or indicate what reasons prompt you to reject the interpretation of events existing in the official history on the Kulikovo Field, while indicating the materials on which your interpretation of events is based. Because, otherwise, your argument, unlike the "official historians" you so disliked, will be reduced to the level of "one woman said."

[co-creator]

Quote: Lord_Raven

How to demonstrate your own ignorance? Or ignorance of factual material? Or the influence of reptilians from Alpha Centauri on the Jew-Masson plot in Burundi?

Actually, I wrote about it. Everything around the ignoramus, except for you as a lamp. What discussion can be with people like you? You are the "Trotskyists" and liberals from history)

Quote: Lord_Raven

If you say A, then say B, otherwise your participation in the discussion does not make any sense.

I didn’t say what I told you, but I wrote directly. What words do you not understand?

Quote: Lord_Raven

Or indicate what reasons motivate you to reject the interpretation of events existing in the official history on the Kulikovo Field, while indicating the materials on which your interpretation of events is based

Archeology.

Quote: Lord_Raven

Because, otherwise, your argument, unlike the "official historians" you so disliked, will be reduced to the level of "one woman said"

How many Soviet citizens died in WWII?

[Varyag77]

Quote: parma

By the way, why don't you draw parallels in the article with the great migration of peoples that destroyed the Roman Empire, because the example of the Mongols is not the first and very similar to the Huns ...

Parallels can indeed be drawn. If we remove the "Huns" from the description of these nomads and put the "Mongols", we will be surprised to find almost 100% similarity. But this is not strange, is it?
We replace Rome with Russia, the Germanic tribes and their ilk with the Rus and their ilk, and we find not the Hun Empire, but the Mongol one. But these are all coincidences and reptilian conspiracies. unconditionally.
For example, life experience does not allow me to believe in such a thing. But of. history is illegible not only to alternatives, but also to the sciences with which it somehow intersects.

[parma]

Quote: Varyag77

Quote: parma

By the way, why don't you draw parallels in the article with the great migration of peoples that destroyed the Roman Empire, because the example of the Mongols is not the first and very similar to the Huns ...

Parallels can indeed be drawn. If we remove the "Huns" from the description of these nomads and put the "Mongols", we will be surprised to find almost 100% similarity. But this is not strange, is it?
We replace Rome with Russia, the Germanic tribes and their ilk with the Rus and their ilk, and we find not the Hun Empire, but the Mongol one. But these are all coincidences and reptilian conspiracies. unconditionally.
For example, life experience does not allow me to believe in such a thing. But of. history is illegible not only to alternatives, but also to the sciences with which it somehow intersects.

You do not compare God's gift with scrambled eggs ... There really are a lot of parallels (if you turn to, as you say, official history), about the same beginning, then a victorious procession and finally a rapid collapse. And to explain this is quite simple, both empires grew and became stronger on conquests, I will not be ashamed of these words, more developed (consider civilized) and pampered countries, and of course in public. As soon as the gains were stopped due to the lengthy communications and the selection of tactics of war with the nomads, their empire collapsed like a house of cards, there were no successful raids, no wealth, slaves, women, and so on, so there was no respect for the existing leaders (like Attila after his unsuccessful campaign ), there is no way to rise to new leaders. The nomads did not make their wealth, because there were no cities, crafts, commerce in the quantities that the farmers had, and therefore they began to bite each other for all available access from another kind / tribe to trade routes, more suitable pastures, large herds and td! But this is only a development trend no more! With the same success, you can draw parallels with the tribes of Arabs, Franks, Normans, and even with organized crime groups in our 90s! Those who are smarter (that the Franks, that the Arabs, that some representatives of the criminal world) have won a place in the new world (the Middle East and Africa for the Arabs, Gaul (and in fact the whole of Western Europe) for the Franks, power and it seems like a legitimate business for crime ) took warm places and began to live, let's say, a quiet life like the previous local population, those who were dumber (Huns, Mongols, the most frostbitten bandits) continued to live as they lived, because they did not want or could not take over the benefits of civilization and eventually disappeared into nowhere .
Take the same Huns - Attila Beach of God successfully conquered neighboring tribes with his brother, then successfully robbed both Roman empires several times, but each time the loot was simply wasted, without successful investments, let’s say so and at one fine moment, when he got all the neighbors with his uninvited by visiting me with a sword and a torch I got the upper hand from them, so much so that I couldn’t collect my teeth from my nomadic empire ..

[Artek]

Quote: voyaka uh

And I to you (in gratitude) I'll post a version: Vikings are Russians. Why?
Vikings are seafarers. So the sailors. Mat dew. Dew is Russ. Russians.
Mat - expressed obscenely (you begin to express yourself there in a storm on fragile little boats).
That is, sailors are Russians who use mate in speech. So - the Vikings.

not bad, good research.

[Dzungar]

Develop this subject more likely. You drove her completely free ....

[marline]

After recent publications regarding the “myths of the Tatar-Mongol invasion”, a series of devastating, historical articles has certainly matured. However, Vyacheslav Olegovich, with all due respect to you, the article seemed to me weak and superficial.
To begin with, the article is called “Weapons and Armor of the Mongol Warriors”, however, apart from a small text about bows and arrowheads (and even without indicating significant differences between these types of weapons of other peoples from the Mongolian) there is nothing more about weapons .. .
The main text of the article is devoted to the historiography of the issue. There are references to the bibliography, and this, of course, is good. Like the advice to the adherents of the "Slavic-Russians" to read them is also correct. However, Vyacheslav Olegovich, did you read them yourself? Take, for example, the first source:

1. Plan Carpini J. Del. History of the Mongals // J. Del Plano Carpini. History of the Mongals / G. de Rubruk. Journey to the East / Book of Marco Polo. - M.: Thought, 1997.

What do we learn from this source? What is the favorite drink of the Mongols - koumiss (kumiss, comos). Yes, only this drink from mare’s milk is called “koumiss” among the Türks, and among the Mongols it is called differently - “ayrig” (ayrag).
We go further, I remind you that Plano Carpini wrote "The History of the Mongols" in 1246. and read the following there:

And also many other secrets of the aforementioned emperor (Genghis Khan) we learned through those who arrived with other leaders, through many Russians and Hungarians who know both Latin and French, through Russian clergy and others who were with them, and some arrived thirty years in the war and other acts of the Tatars and knew all their deedssince they knew the language and were inseparably with them, some twenty, some ten years, some more, some less; from them we could scout everything, and they themselves told us everything willingly, sometimes even without question, because they knew our desire

Now you can say what the Russian priests did at the court of Genghis Khan from 1216?
Well, the cherry on the cake:

The names of the lands that they (the Mongols) defeated are as follows: Chinas, Naimans, Solangs, Kara-Chinas, or Black Chinas, Comana, Tumat, Voirat, Karanites, Guyur (Huyur), Su-Mongal, Merkits, Mekrites, Sariguyur, Baskart, that is, the great Hungary, Kergis, Kasmir, Sarrazins, Bisermins, Turkoman, Bilera, that is, the great Bulgaria, Korola, Komuki, Buritabet, Parossites, Kassa, Jacobites, Alans, or Assy, Obesy, or Georgians, Nestorians, Armenians Kangits, Comans, Brutahs, who are the Jews, Mordovians, Turks, Khozars, Samogeds, Persians, Tarks, small India, or Ethiopia, Circassians, Rufens, Balds, Sarts; there are many more lands, but we do not know their names. We have even seen men and women from the above countries.

Where is Russia here ?! Maybe the Rufens? So no ... Russia, Plano Karpini calls Russia: "... we arrived in Kiev, which serves as the capital of Russia." Those. according to Plano Karpini, the Mongols did not conquer Russia ...
Well, what will the person who read the source Vyacheslav Olegovich, approved by you, think?

[voyaka uh]

"what the Russian priests did at the court of Genghis Khan from 1216?" /////

Text:
"through the Russian clergy and others who were with them, with some arriving
thirty years in war "

You read texts very inattentively. "AND OTHERS that were with them."
... and SOME stayed thirty years.
Not only Russians, but also representatives of other religions (from China, Central Asia - along the way
Mongol conquests over 30 years).
You are trying to swiftly refute the unique and authoritative written source of the witness of the events.

[marline]

Quote: voyaka uh

You read texts very inattentively. "AND OTHERS that were with them."
... and SOME stayed thirty years.
Not only Russians, but also representatives of other religions (from China, Central Asia - along the way
Mongol conquests over 30 years).

Doing verbiage? Is that all you have to say?

[voyaka uh]

Verbiage is an exclamation: "Where is Russia here ?!"
I just pointed out to you your problems with understanding the text of Plano Carpini.

[marline]

Quote: voyaka uh

I just pointed out to you your problems with understanding the text of Plano Carpini.

When I have problems understanding the Torah, I will definitely turn to you.
In the meantime, I can tell you what was written, it was read.

[Alex1117]

Yes, he has already been refuted 100 times. By the way, did you see the source itself? No, not seen. For he is not. It is also unknown who made the copy from the alleged source. Since there is no first copy either.

[tlauicol]

Quote: merlin

Well, the cherry on the cake:

The names of the lands that they (the Mongols) defeated are as follows: Chinas, Naimans, Solangs, Kara-Chinas, or Black Chinas, Comana, Tumat, Voirat, Karanites, Guyur (Huyur), Su-Mongal, Merkits, Mekrites, Sariguyur, Baskart, that is, the great Hungary, Kergis, Kasmir, Sarrazins, Bisermins, Turkoman, Bilera, that is, the great Bulgaria, Korola, Komuki, Buritabet, Parossites, Kassa, Jacobites, Alans, or Assy, Obesy, or Georgians, Nestorians, Armenians Kangits, Comans, Brutahs, who are the Jews, Mordovians, Turks, Khozars, Samogeds, Persians, Tarks, small India, or Ethiopia, Circassians, Rufens, Balds, Sarts; there are many more lands, but we do not know their names. We have even seen men and women from the above countries.

Where is Russia here ?! Maybe the Rufens? So no ... Russia, Plano Karpini calls Russia: "... we arrived in Kiev, which serves as the capital of Russia." Those. according to Plano Karpini, the Mongols did not conquer Russia ...
Well, what will the person who read the source Vyacheslav Olegovich, approved by you, think?

did you just read this paragraph in Karpini? Honestly And what did he previously describe, passing through the Kiev conflagration, did not see him point-blank? And the princes that came to Batu to bow (listed by name)?
about koumiss is fun. and if Karpini wrote that the Mongols love horses, you would cry out: "what horses? is the Turkic word - the Mongols have pestilence, morin!?"

[marline]

Quote: Tlauicol

did you just read this paragraph in Karpini?

I read everything that was written. And as you can see carefully and thoughtfully, unlike you.
And in general, in history, that only the Mongols burned Kiev? Maybe you should teach a story?
And yes, in Mongolian horse morin, they say that from this came the Russian gelding, and, apparently, the Celtic merr-, as well as the High German and Old Iceland ... that’s because the Mongol conquerors ...

[tlauicol]

Yes nichrome you did not read. master the fifth chapter?
they say chickens are milked, and they are singing to our Father - only now no one has heard

[marline]

Quote: Tlauicol

they say chickens are milked, and they are singing to our Father - only now no one has heard

Well, if you have nothing more to answer, then goodbye ...

[tlauicol]

"They say" as a method of scientific research "- a great name for an article - do not want to emboss?
So what does Carpini have in chapter five?

[marline]

Tovarisch, I already perfectly understood that you have nothing to say in the case. So you would be silent for a while, you would look and you would be smart.

[sivuch]

Plano Karpini reported that each Mongolian archer had "three large quivers full of arrows." Birch bark served as material for quivers and they contained about 30 arrows each
-------------------------------------
What do you mean by yourself? you can’t blame more than one on your belt. And by the way, I read somewhere that there were 40 arrows in the quiver of an ordinary Mongol. Interestingly, the decrease in the number began already with the ten's armmen?

[Dzungar]

With you - IT'S AT YOURSELF, ON YOUR HORSE, AND ANOTHER PAIR OF FACTORY HORSES .... So you can have not three but all ten quivers with you

[Cat]

Quote: Artek

Quote: Tlauicol

yeah, but did you see the column of Trajan? dad flipped an angel from above, but he didn’t have time to wipe the figures in antique costumes — so poor fellow did so with falsification of history. Or maybe in the Middle Ages a column was installed and people then wore togas and Roman armor? and all these knights and costumes 16-19vv fake of the Romanovs and Zhidomasons?

all right, you say, in the Middle Ages they wore skirts, togas, and armor, for example, in Pompeii there are images of a knight, how did it get there?

In defense of the Doctor!

A children's drawing of pompeii depicts a Roman centurion with a scutum and plumba!
Why a centurion? We look at the plume. Why scootum? We look at the shield. Plyumbata - a small feathered dart!
Well, and the last - the growth square knight’s shield is something of a fantasy.
For the kitty - special sincerely thanks !!!
Regards, Vladislav.

[Cat]

Plyumbata!

By the way, known since the time of Hellas. Basically, the legionaries were armed with two medium (long-range) and three small (for close combat) plume battles.

[Artek]

Quote: Kotischa

Why a centurion? We look at the plume. Why scootum? We look at the shield. Plyumbata - a small feathered dart!

and what do you refute the medieval image with a modern picture?

[tlauicol]

not a medieval, but an antique image! comrade led modern reconstruction, because 2500 figures on the column of Trajan against the 1st children's drawing did not convince you

[Artek]

Quote: Tlauicol

not a medieval, but an antique image! comrade led modern reconstruction, because 2500 figures on the column of Trajan against the 1st children's drawing did not convince you

In general, Pompeii is such a city in which official history does not coincide with medieval maps, for example, with the atlas of Abraham Ortelius for 1570. On his map Pompeii is presented in full growth, although according to the traditional history of TI, Pompeii was excavated at the end of the 17th and beginning of the 18th century. So Pompeii is not an antique, but a completely medieval city with all the attendant signs, such as a fashion for a knightly costume and all kinds of “antique” togas.

[Varyag77]

Quote: parma

Quote: Varyag77

Quote: parma

By the way, why don't you draw parallels in the article with the great migration of peoples that destroyed the Roman Empire, because the example of the Mongols is not the first and very similar to the Huns ...

Parallels can indeed be drawn. If we remove the "Huns" from the description of these nomads and put the "Mongols", we will be surprised to find almost 100% similarity. But this is not strange, is it?
We replace Rome with Russia, the Germanic tribes and their ilk with the Rus and their ilk, and we find not the Hun Empire, but the Mongol one. But these are all coincidences and reptilian conspiracies. unconditionally.
For example, life experience does not allow me to believe in such a thing. But of. history is illegible not only to alternatives, but also to the sciences with which it somehow intersects.

You do not compare God's gift with scrambled eggs ... There really are a lot of parallels (if you turn to, as you say, official history), about the same beginning, then a victorious procession and finally a rapid collapse. And to explain this is quite simple, both empires grew and became stronger on conquests, I will not be ashamed of these words, more developed (consider civilized) and pampered countries, and of course in public. As soon as the gains were stopped due to the lengthy communications and the selection of tactics of war with the nomads, their empire collapsed like a house of cards, there were no successful raids, no wealth, slaves, women, and so on, so there was no respect for the existing leaders (like Attila after his unsuccessful campaign ), there is no way to rise to new leaders. The nomads did not make their wealth, because there were no cities, crafts, commerce in the quantities that the farmers had, and therefore they began to bite each other for all available access from another kind / tribe to trade routes, more suitable pastures, large herds and td! But this is only a development trend no more! With the same success, you can draw parallels with the tribes of Arabs, Franks, Normans, and even with organized crime groups in our 90s! Those who are smarter (that the Franks, that the Arabs, that some representatives of the criminal world) have won a place in the new world (the Middle East and Africa for the Arabs, Gaul (and in fact the whole of Western Europe) for the Franks, power and it seems like a legitimate business for crime ) took warm places and began to live, let's say, a quiet life like the previous local population, those who were dumber (Huns, Mongols, the most frostbitten bandits) continued to live as they lived, because they did not want or could not take over the benefits of civilization and eventually disappeared into nowhere .
Take the same Huns - Attila Beach of God successfully conquered neighboring tribes with his brother, then successfully robbed both Roman empires several times, but each time the loot was simply wasted, without successful investments, let’s say so and at one fine moment, when he got all the neighbors with his uninvited by visiting me with a sword and a torch I got the upper hand from them, so much so that I couldn’t collect my teeth from my nomadic empire ..

Or one is a reflection of the other. I don’t have to tell a story. I already know her. The whole problem is that in addition to “like chronicles,” as I call them due to the fact that there are so many so-called “lists” with lost “like originals,” now there is the Internet, digitized libraries, etc. , which allowed a huge number of fans to pay attention to all the nonsense that official officials carry. Of course, someone flirts and begins to cross the boundaries of the rational, but really interesting inconsistencies have been found in a critical mass. And it is enough to start tedding this rotten pile called. "story".
You don’t mind that you haven’t reliably found a single battlefield in that period. Not a battle near Kolomna, on the Sit river, an ice battle, a sandpiper ... well, isn’t it strange for you, is this true? That there were several major battles, but there are no traces or even places. All that is traces of fires in cities dated around the same time. There are no Mongolian graves. Apparently immortal they were. Added to this is a couple of ridiculous “like labels” and voila. Already 300 years yoke painted. But isn’t it bold?

[parma]

no, it’s not surprising ... The places of battles of earlier eras were also found a little! Why are the ashes of cities not difficult to find, and places of battle more difficult? Just enough, let’s take for example the battles of the civil war in Rome with the participation of Caesar and co (just because the troops are almost identical): for example, Caesar’s last battle, the battle of Munda. Guy Julius has 45-50 thousand people, Republicans 70-75 thousand. It would seem that this would be a slaughter (according to Hollywood), but no, Caesar’s losses are about 1000-1500, Republicans estimate up to 30 thousand. The reason is simple - in the battle, I don’t think that the Pompeyans died much more, well, even let 3000 people (relative to 75 are not very many), but then confusion started, the retreat and the retreating were simply cut into the back by the cavalry ... What do we have in the end -3000 corpses in one place (their Caesarians buried 200%, enemies, who knows) and another 27 thousand are distributed over a very large area (well, say 5-10 sq km, quite real numbers) There are no values ​​on the battlefield, no no money, no weapons, no armor (the soldiers themselves dragged something like trophies, someone also took equipment, something for supplies, something for re-melting) ... And how do you plan to find this place after 2000 years old? Well, you will find a field with a bunch of corpses in the ground, but how to understand what exactly this battle was here? There are no more settlements, there may even not be such a river and a hill (both naturally and man-made disappeared) .. With later battles (including medieval ones), too, the story-battle usually ended after losing 10-15% (and even less) personnel, and this leads to the fragmentation of bodies on the battlefield ...

[Servisinzhener]

You can find it by accident, and even that is not a fact that can be correlated with any historical event. Last year, near Bakhchisaray, 70 headless bodies of the 10-12th century were found. Who is what happened there is incomprehensible.

[Luga]

Quote: Varyag77

You don’t mind that you haven’t reliably found a single battlefield in that period. Not a battle near Kolomna, on the Sit river, an ice battle, a sandpiper ... well, isn’t it strange for you, is this true? That there were several major battles, but there are no traces or even places. All that is traces of fires in cities dated around the same time. There are no Mongolian graves. Apparently immortal they were. Added to this is a couple of ridiculous “like labels” and voila. Already 300 years yoke painted. But isn’t it bold?

Add here the battle of Kalka, the battle of Lipitsa, the battle of Zhdan-mount, the Battle of Rakovorsky, the Neva battle, the battle of Omovzha and to the heap the battle of Pian, near the Shishevsky forest, Vozha, the battle of Blue Waters, the battle of Vorskla. Some battle sites are determined by the chronicles with accuracy (Kolomna, Omovzha, the Neva battle or Jean-mountain, for example), some approximately or variably (Kalka, Lipitsa, Vozha, Shishevsky forest), some are not determined at all (Blue Water, Drunk, Sit). They have one thing in common - no traces of these battles have yet been discovered in the real world. The battle of Kolomna took place under the walls of Kolomna, the Omovzhenskoye battle near Yuryev, literally near the walls, Zhdan-gora is localized with precision, the confluence of the Neva and Izhora is also not a secret. Nothing was found at the sites of these battles. Does this mean that these battles were not? If for you - yes, then ... I was in vain bothering you. Otherwise, we will have to admit that theoretically after medieval battles, even the largest ones, such as, for example, the battle of Kolomna, archaeological traces on the battlefield may not remain. That is, the absence of traces does not mean the absence of an event.
Well, as for the Mongolian graves ... Such a question: what do you know about the Mongolian (namely the Mongolian) burial rites? I specifically took an interest in this issue and found out: the vast majority of researchers agree that the Mongols cultivated secret burials, buried the dead deep in the ground and leveled the clearing so that no one could find the burial place. And they buried secretly, in a deserted place, they didn’t make any mounds, monuments or even mounds. You can only find this by accident.
In general, for me, for general development, can you answer a few questions? If it’s not difficult, as you think,
1. Was there a military defeat of China in the first half of the 13th century? If yes, then who committed it?
2. Was there a military defeat of the power of the Khorezmshahs in the first half of the 13th century? If yes, then who committed it?
3. Was there a military defeat of Russia in the first half of the 13th century? If yes, then
a) who committed it?
b) what are its consequences (political, economic, or none at all)
I don’t plan to argue, it's just interesting.

[Lord_Raven]

What terrible questions are you asking)) You still ask who hired the Germans and Poles at the battle of Legnica. From whom the Polovtsian Khan Kotyan fled to Hungary. Who destroyed the "divine wind" in Japan. Whose weapons and remains are found on the Zolotarevsky settlement.
P / S. For stubborn deniers, a post with photographs, for I doubt very much that at least one of them is able to read the PVL, for the language is "outdated" https://gosh100.livejournal.com/69452.html

[Luga]

Quote: Lord_Raven

What terrible questions are you asking))

And what, apparently really scary, since there was no answer

[Dimmih]

Quotation: blooded man

Quote: Dimmih

You ask a question that you yourself have answered, moreover, correctly!

Well, it follows from this that the Mongol empire is presented with nonsense. No Golden Horde could politically control Russia, since it itself was engaged in a nomadic way of life.

Those. Do you deny that nomads can control a settled population? Huns were paid tribute from China, do you deny them too? Then come the first \ second Turkic Kaganate, etc., and so on., And so on. Refute.

[co-creator]

Quote: Dimmih

Those. Do you deny that nomads can control a settled population? X

Yes sir . Only not the population, but the state.

Quote: Dimmih

Huns took tribute from China, they also deny

Crimean Tatars paid tribute even from Peter I

Quote: Dimmih

Then come the first \ second Turkic Kaganate, etc., and so on., And so on. Refute.

Who controlled the Turkic Kaganate? Persians, China, Byzantium?

[Dimmih]

I do not understand you, as they say, either I or not me. Huns, nomads, took tribute from China. If you agree with this, then why could not other Mongol nomads take tribute from the Russian principalities? Another thing is if you deny the existence of the Huns and, accordingly, the tribute they pay from China .... Crimean Tatars here I do not understand why. Tired, apparently. I propose to deal with the times more ancient, and then gradually move on to the Tatars of the Crimea. According to the Turkic Kaganate, yes, in fact, that the first, that the second took tribute from China. At times, like the Huns, and at times China was cruelly beaten. Another thing is that the Mongols captured (including the hands of the Chinese) China and founded the Yuan Dynasty, which ruled for about 150 years. Will you also deny this? Manchus, Hsien-bi and others, deny them? You somehow jump from one to another, let’s do away with one, and then do away with another.

[co-creator]

Quote: Dimmih

I do not understand you, as they say, either I or not me. Huns, nomads, took tribute from China. If you agree with this, then why could not other Mongol nomads take tribute from the Russian principalities?

I didn’t seem to deny that the nomadic peoples settled tributes and the Russian principalities, too. This is a common thing.

Quote: Dimmih

Crimean Tatars here I do not understand why. Tired, apparently.

To the fact that the Crimean Tatars paid a tribute that only Peter I stopped paying. Moreover, the Crimean khans also sent labels to Moscow, and Russian ambassadors were often tortured and killed. Does this mean that the Moscow Grand Dukes were vassals of the Crimean khans?

Quote: Dimmih

Another thing is that the Mongols captured (including the hands of the Chinese) China and founded the Yuan Dynasty, which ruled for about 150 years. Will you also deny this?

No, I will not . This has happened repeatedly in history and in Europe, too, the same Vikings (Normans) captured England and became the ruling dynasty and elite.

Quote: Dimmih

Manchus, Hsien-bi and others, deny them?

Of course I won’t.

Quote: Dimmih

You somehow jump from one to another, let’s do away with one, and then do away with another.

Let's finish it in turn. I just gave an example where it is clearly visible that tribute and political control are not interconnected things.

[tasha]

The state of the Mongol-Tatars did not arise not from scratch. Genghis Khan managed to collect the wreckage of the Turkic Khaganates by force of arms, justice of laws, attractiveness of the state system.

As for the impossibility of controlling vast territories with a relatively small number of soldiers, one of the examples is the actions of the Czechoslovak Corps in Russia in the 1918-1919 year. Less than 50 of thousands of people, but more organized and disciplined, being at key points were able to seize power in the Urals and Siberia. Not just to seize, but all the small governments were somehow dependent on the whites ... Somehow ...

During the Great Patriotic War there were villages in which not a single German was seen. In a considerable number of other villages, the invaders appointed the burgomaster and the local police, but did not come anymore.

In the 18 century, the number of British did not exceed 50mln. person. The total population of the British Empire was about 480mln. - 22% of the total population of the Earth ...

Here is a wiki piece about English rule in India: "The British in their colonial policy followed the principle of" divide and rule ", taking advantage of the state fragmentation of India and conflicts between different principalities, and between different social and religious groups." How many of those English were there?

And just another. I don’t remember who I read. I’ll write not close to the original:
"I am a Roman citizen! .. And the crowd parted, because behind these words was heard the iron tread of the imperial legions, blood and fire ...."

[co-creator]

Quote: tasha

As for the impossibility of controlling vast territories with a relatively small number of soldiers, one of the examples is the actions of the Czechoslovak Corps in Russia in the 1918-1919 year. Less than 50 of thousands of people, but more organized and disciplined, being at key points were able to seize power in the Urals and Siberia. Not just to seize, but all the small governments were somehow dependent on the whites ... Somehow ...

As if the Czechs controlled only those areas where there was no armed force that could fight back.

Quote: tasha

During the Great Patriotic War there were villages in which not a single German was seen. In a considerable number of other villages, the invaders appointed the burgomaster and the local police, but did not come anymore.

that is, you deny the presence of partisans?

Quote: tasha

In the 18 century, the number of British did not exceed 50mln. person. The total population of the British Empire was about 480mln. - 22% of the total population of the Earth ...

in all the English colonies there were English garrisons and British governors who controlled the native vassals who controlled the native population. Without a British garrison and governor, there could be no control of the colonies. For example, in China there was no governor, and therefore, China was simply raided and took a "tribute"

Quote: tasha

"I am a Roman citizen! .. And the crowd parted, because behind these words was heard the iron tread of the imperial legions, blood and fire ...."

In each province there was a procurator, in each.

[tasha]

As if the Czechs controlled only those areas where there was no armed force that could fight back.

The Czechs controlled the railway. They roamed along it, and organized parties were sent to the sides, which dispersed the armed force, which could repulse.

that is, you deny the presence of partisans?

No comment ...

in all the English colonies there were English garrisons ... For example, in China there was no governor and therefore raids were made on China and took "tribute"

And best of all, when native vassals come themselves, bring tribute and receive instructions ..

In each province there was a procurator, in each.

In each province there was a procurator, in each. Outside the empire, Roman citizens were defended not by prosecutors, but by the irreversibility of retaliation ... However, this is not a topic, but simply .. Dreams are

[co-creator]

Quote: tasha

They roamed along it, and organized parties were sent to the sides, which dispersed the armed force, which could repulse.

What are the forces that could fight back? When the Bolsheviks gathered such power, the whites quickly dumped.

Quote: tasha

And best of all, when native vassals come themselves, bring tribute and receive instructions ..

certainly better, but for this the vassal should depend on the owner and have a gesheft from this. If there is no addiction, then it makes no sense to go for instructions and follow them all the more.

Quote: tasha

Outside the empire, Roman citizens were defended not by prosecutors, but by the irreversibility of retaliation ..

outside the empire, Roman citizens were slaughtered like cattle and punitive campaigns did not help. The distant provinces were self-governing, and the procurators were the imperial administration that monitored the native one.
However .. they are such dreams.

[tasha]

What are the forces that could fight back? When the Bolsheviks gathered such power, the whites quickly dumped.

The squads of various small principalities .. Sorry, detachments of the Red Guard ... For example.

certainly better, but for this the vassal should depend on the owner and have a gesheft from this.

And what is the question? If you behave well, they will also help you grab land from a neighbor. Depended, traveled and paid ... Until the empire weakened. Accumulated strength, united and freed. Or maybe the controllers themselves fell down like whites. The story is this - it repeats itself ...

[co-creator]

Quote: tasha

The squads of various small principalities .. Sorry, detachments of the Red Guard ... For example.

That is, you acknowledge that there were no such forces. Fine.

Quote: tasha

If you behave well, they will also help you grab land from a neighbor.

Well, that is, it’s called to hire neighbors to help them break up a neighbor. But why for this become a vassal and voluntarily? Do you think the Slavs of that time were less freedom-loving than their descendants?)

Quote: tasha

Depended, traveled and paid ...

Yeah, Peter I also depended on the Crimean khans, because they went and paid.

Quote: tasha

Until the empire weakened. Accumulated strength, united and freed.

From whom were they liberated? That Russia was occupied?

Quote: tasha

The story is this - it repeats itself ...

That's right.

[tasha]

That is, you acknowledge that there were no such forces. Fine.

What do I admit? And what are you talking about? Explain the essence of your question and your ideas, what should these forces look like in your idea? Honestly, sometimes cause some bewilderment ...

From whom were they liberated? That Russia was occupied?

Quote:
As a result of the invasion, a significant part of the population of Russia died. Kiev, Vladimir-on-Klyazma, Galich, Vladimir-Volynsky, Chernihiv, Pereyaslavl, Ryazan and many other cities were destroyed. The exception was Veliky Novgorod, Pskov, as well as the cities of Smolensk, Polotsk and Turovo-Pinsk principalities. The developed urban culture of Ancient Russia suffered significant damage ...

Ponder the word "Significant" ....

Imagine you are the head of a peasant farm . Work on your land. You have workers and even one watchman. Fifteen of your neighbors live nearby ... But your relationship with them is bad. You fight on the lines ...
I come with five friends, during the battle I kill your watchman and half of the workers, burn your house and barn. You and the survivors run away into the forest. We are leaving to burn your neighbor across the river. Then we leave for ourselves ...

In a year I come again. You have by this time built a new house and harvested. I inform you that you are obliged to give me "tithe in everything: in people, in princes, in horses, in the whole tenth." And bring it all yourself to the collection point .. If you do not bring it, I will burn your house again ...
That's how we live. You have a conflict with your neighbor because of the mowing. You got into a fight and a neighbor gave you bruises. You bring me another annual tax and plus a beautiful fur coat. Ask me to give you these cuttings. The fur coat is beautiful, so I order my soldiers to burn your neighbor’s house ...
Your mowing and you walk with a feeling of deepest satisfaction ... And even under the hop, shout to your neighbors: "Yes, I’m telling you .. I’ve got something here, the steppes ... I’ll order - they will burn your houses ..." ...

[co-creator]

Quote: tasha

Explain the essence of your question and your ideas, what should these forces look like in your idea?

The forces should be comparable with the White Bohemian corps and Kochak’s army. As soon as they appeared, the Czechs quickly dumped.

Quote: tasha

Ponder the word "Significant" ....

thought it over. Now think, if they died, then who paid the output?

Quote: tasha

In a year I come again. You have by this time built a new house and harvested. I inform you that you are obliged to give me "tithe in everything: in people, in princes, in horses, in the whole tenth." And bring it all yourself to the collection point .. If you do not bring it, I will burn your house again ...

and I ask you a question:
-mile, and what is my gesheft from the fact that I will pay tithing to you? What will you burn my house? Yes, do not care, I myself will burn it. Where will you cheat your army?
- no native, instead of tithing you must provide me a service or the right to something. For example, the right to use the Volga trade route.
- if you just want money for not robbing me. then tithing is too much, and I’ll never take it to you personally. Well, I am bad to go personally risking my life to protect my slaves. You ask and I myself will sell you extra people to slavery.

Quote: tasha

You got into a fight and a neighbor gave you bruises. You bring me another annual tax and plus a beautiful fur coat. Ask me to give you these cuttings. The fur coat is beautiful, so I order my soldiers to burn your neighbor’s house ...

Why will I ask you to give something that does not belong to you? You do not even have a governor in my and neighboring lands, you can say no one. I came to Hire you and therefore brought a fur coat.

Quote: tasha

And under the hop, even shout to the neighbors: "Yes, I’m telling you .. I’ve got something, the steppe inhabitants ... I’ll order - they will burn your houses of that ..." ...

That's right, only that takes money. Money could be taken only from trade, and the trade route was in the hands of the steppe inhabitants. Here you have to personally go and ask for a label for monopoly trade, sorry "reigning". Only the steppes are wild people, they can kill if the other prince is quicker.

[tasha]

thought it over. Now think, if they died, then who paid the output?

And those who stayed. It took 300 years to dig up the strengths. That's it ...

-mile, and what is my gesheft from the fact that I will pay tithing to you?

Gesheft yours is that you will live ... Now how many taxes do you pay? Why don’t you spit?

Where will you cheat your army?

My army went back to the steppes or to the last sea. Because my army lives in motion .. If necessary, we’ll return .. Seven miles - not a hook ...

- no native, instead of tithing you must provide me a service or the right to something.

I owe you? Get down, come .. Say thank you for leaving alive .. I have an empire! The worries of the outlying natives worry me insofar as ...

Why will I ask you to give something that does not belong to you? You do not even have a governor in my and neighboring lands, you can say no one. I came to Hire you and therefore brought a fur coat.

I say, under the hop ... Demagogy..
You are my viceroy ... You manage my subsidiary farm ... What is the question? Manage well - live. Bad - a head from the shoulders ...
For example, the same fascists did not disperse the collective farms ... Why do you think so?

That's right, only that takes money.

What for? Read carefully ...

[tasha]

The forces should be comparable with the White Bohemian corps and Kochak’s army. As soon as they appeared, the Czechs quickly dumped.

Yes. As soon as Russia gained strength, united and was able to fight back, so the yoke ended .. Almost ..
Again, by that time, the empire had rotted and collapsed ..

[co-creator]

Quote: tasha

As soon as Russia gained strength, united and was able to fight back, so the yoke ended .. Almost ..

It’s not a matter of strength, but of population. As soon as in Russia there was enough people for colonization, the song of the nomads was sung. This Crimeans had a roof in the form of the Ottomans, in the "Golden Horde" there was no one.

Quote: tasha

Again, by that time, the empire had rotted and collapsed ..

And why was there to fall apart? For 300 years, not built any cities, no economy, no state. management. The usual nomadic khanate who was engaged in robbery and raids. All their power was that they held the most important trade route from Europe to Asia. For such a lot of money and on your “knees” you can crawl in front of the Busurmans.

[co-creator]

Quote: tasha

And those who stayed. It took 300 years to dig up the strengths. That's it ...

So judging by the fact that you wrote almost no one left. Where did the little people come from in those places where supposedly the former Mongols had been cut out. And in general, what can be taken from the lands where most of the people were killed and burned all the cities?

Quote: tasha

Gesheft yours is that you will live ... Now how many taxes do you pay? Why don’t you spit?

For the most part I rely on .. for the slaves. He himself mounted his horse and with his retinue fled to the forest, the people did the same. Fortunately, there are many forests, few inhabitants.
I pay for services, not for being allowed to live.

Quote: tasha

My army went back to the steppes or to the last sea. Because my army lives in motion .. If necessary, we’ll return .. Seven miles - not a hook ...

Well, come back so what. The villages are burned, there are no supplies, people in the forests. What will happen to you? Yes, it’s just that the floor of the army will rest and you’ll speed back. And I will come out of the forest. I will again build cities and towns because the forest is full. This is how you make several trips, a decent part of the army will rest from your hunger and cold, and you yourself will want to "talk".

Quote: tasha

I owe you? Get down, come .. Say thank you for leaving alive .. I have an empire! The worries of the outlying natives worry me insofar as ...

Yes, I did not care about your threats, I’ll go into the forest. What the hell is your empire? Where are the occupying garrisons. where are the attributes of this empire? Such "empires" were like mud. Polovtsy, Khazars, Bulgars. There were many of you robber-robbers, MUCH WE PAYED A TRIBUTE And you will be paid if necessary, but a little differently to the forest.

Quote: tasha

I’m saying, under the hop ... Demagogy ..

Something went wrong and immediately demagogy)

Quote: tasha

You are my viceroy ... You manage my subsidiary farm ... What is the question? Manage well - live. Bad - a head from the shoulders ...

What lyady am I from? I am the prince and I own this land, and you, the busurman, came to conquer me. I can only be a vassal, but then I need a governor to follow me.
Yes, you’re tired of catching me in the woods and take a break from hunger, so your threats without a cashbox are of little interest to me.

Quote: tasha

For example, the same fascists did not disperse the collective farms ... Why do you think so?

Why do you think the Germans left the occupying garrisons. Why was the German administration besides the native?

Quote: tasha

What for? Read carefully ...

Then, that among the nomads there are no altruists. If everyone is already paying the way out. then from what lyad for no reason did I drag along the forests for the sake of my vassal which the neighbor’s landlings wanted?

[tasha]

And in general, what can be taken from the lands where most of the people were killed and burned all the cities?

Read, think. Well, so-and-so ...

Where are the occupying garrisons. where are the attributes of this empire?

Once again, in the next. No need for garrisons. What is the occupation?

Another example: You are the owner of a store. I am a local mafioso. You pay me tribute. If you don’t pay, the bulls will come and do you bad. They don’t have to sit in your store. Is it clear?
Look at the world wider .. Stubbornness is sometimes good, but in your case it is some kind of blindness ...

Why do you think the Germans left the occupying garrisons. Why was the German administration besides the native?

The garrisons were maximum in the regional centers and even then not always ...

Well, come back so what. The villages are burned

If it is NECESSARY, then I’ll be back ... Ten years later ..

Read, think ...

[Siban]

Quote: tasha

The state of the Mongol-Tatars did not arise not from scratch. Genghis Khan managed to collect the wreckage of the Turkic Khaganates

And maybe not by chance the name of his empire is identical to the self-name of the Turkic Kaganate - Mangi El (Eternal Ale), which in a paradoxical sense is consonant with the ancient "Eternal Rome" (Eternal City) and the German Tausendjähriges Reich ..

[Dzungar]

Break off ...! Here a bunch of pi .... owls moves the idea of ​​a "great Tartary Empire of Siberia" ... There is no question of an empire of Türks. Warriors of Genghis Khan did not collect the wreckage of the Turkic Khaganates, but drove them into a heap and drove in front like "cannon fodder" ....

[Siban]

Quote: Dzungar

Break off ...! Here a bunch of pi .... owls moves the idea of ​​a "great Tartary Empire of Siberia" ... There is no question of an empire of Türks

About "pi .... owls" - checked empirically ?!

[avva2012]

Han Tengri,

Do you, doctor, still not tired of playing chess with pigeons?

Well, not everyone is so lucky as you, Olgovich himself banned you But seriously, sometimes pigeons need to be chased a little, otherwise you won't stand where.

[Reptiloid]

Respect, dear! About the pigeons. When I was very small, pre-school, we came to Leningrad from the Far East on vacation. And then it was decided to feed the pigeons. So, they gathered at a site of 3 × 3 m., Pushing, shoving, pecking grains, swarming with swarming ... I stand and think: now I’m soooo shugan! I ran, waved my hands, they purred, flew, fluttered their wings, I immediately got dust, fluff, some muck! .. Mom took me in her arms right away --- and from there !!! Spoken: Well, aren't you disgusted ?! They can be contagious!
So, after that ~ 30 years have passed and I remember everything !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[avva2012]

They can be contagious!

That's for sure, Dmitry, ornithosis. In general, a pigeon, a nasty bird. A stronger individual, can simply peck a weak fellow in the head with its beak until it kills. There’s nothing to do just like that.

[Reptiloid]

[quote = avva2012] [quote] ornithosis. [quote]
I read in the 7-volume "Plant Life", Vol. 2, where about the mushrooms that doves have on their feathers --- all sorts of infection !!! There may even be a fungus with a fruit body in shape and size like a small truffle !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pigeons, they are.
What a bastard!

[avva2012]

Aspergillosis.
In general, fungal diseases are rarely transmitted to humans. The main diseases that can be dangerous to humans are the same ornithosis, encephalitis, tuberculosis, salmonellosis, pseudotuberculosis, erysipelas, listeriosis, tularemia.

[Reptiloid]

Horror !!!!!!!! It seems that the fungus is not aspergillus, but from the class of zygomycetes! All the same, crap.
Good morning, Alexander! Happy New Year approaching!

[avva2012]

Good morning, Dmitry! It is possible so, but nevertheless, a person has the opportunity to get a fungus only if the immunity is Khan. Happy New Year !!!

[Yura Yakovlev]

"Mongolian Rigs, snaffle rings, stirrups and horseshoes"
Fresh tradition, but hard to believe .... Not them. To make all this, you need the technology of obtaining and processing iron. But they didn’t have it, nor did the forge. The iron was only meteorite, which needed to be found, or it was necessary to get iron from the swamp ore, but there are no less problems, even if you try to do it today.
Not each of us visited the swamp for cranberries or hunting. But even among those who visited, not everyone noticed that there are red spots in the swamp. But even if they paid attention to the existence of red spots, they do not necessarily know that this is swamp ore from which iron can be obtained. But even if they know the latter, it is not a fact that they can get this iron, because the production of critical iron is a technology of powder metallurgy of the XNUMXth century for sintering iron in a reducing atmosphere. So judge. Are nomads capable of this?

[Dzungar]

What a pity sometimes some unfortunate people who see nothing and do not understand and do not want this in their chauvinist frenzy ...

[Seal]

Did you finally see clearly? Are you starting to get rid of your great-power "ancient Mongolian" chauvinism? Well, congratulations, better late than never.

[co-creator]

Quote: Dooplet11

I read. I’ll look.
Wasn’t there a single one? And who collected and drove the Odynsky exit? Local natives, apparently.

WHY DO THE MONGOL DO NOT HAVE RUSSIAN GENES? drove the slaves, stole, and the sense of zero.

I think because the Turks stole. Ethnic Mongols need to look for the Chinese and Turkic genomes.

No, they were like, but they were gathering a way out and they were leaving. It’s unrealistic to gather an exit without local ones; the natives either flee into the forests or cut the bus-man. Here you need a representative of his overlord who was the prince. That is, the Basques collected a tribute to him on behalf of the prince.
Well then, you need to find a Turk with a large percentage of the Slavic genome. Where will we search?

[co-creator]

tasha,

Quote: tasha

Read, think. Well, so-and-so ...

Are you leading a discussion or do you want to entertain yours? If csv, then for this there are local JUNGARS and the like. You can give your friend compliments and spit on us unreasonable.

Quote: tasha

Once again, in the next. No need for garrisons. What is the occupation?

No garrisons or governor, no political control, everything is simple. There is no other way in life.

Quote: tasha

Another example: You are the owner of a store. I am a local mafioso. You pay me tribute. If you don’t pay, the bulls will come and do you bad. They don’t have to sit in your store. Is it clear?

An example of course is out of place from the word at all. If you give an example, then give similar historical examples.
The store is simple. If the mafiosi will tell me where to buy the goods. to whom to sell it, what prices to put on it, how many days a week I work, then I just close the store and that’s it. Yes, I will be left without business, but what will the mafioso keep its bulls for?
The only way to get me to set the prices you need is to put the bull in a neighboring house.

Quote: tasha

Look at the world wider .. Stubbornness is sometimes good, but in your case it is some kind of blindness ...

Are you talking about blindness? My dear, we are discussing the IGO, and you write to me about the tribute. Do you understand the difference in the place with these concepts? I’m still waiting for you to explain to me how the Mongols exercised political control, but there is no answer from you.

Quote: tasha

The garrisons were maximum in the regional centers and even then not always ...

So the garrisons were and "governors" were) You hope you understand why they stood there?

Quote: tasha

If it is NECESSARY, then I’ll be back ... Ten years later ..
Read, think ...

Well, come back, well, plunder. Only instead of 10 years of tribute, you will get prey only once every ten years, and it is not known whether the army’s campaign will pay off with what you can rob.

[tasha]

If the mafiosi will tell me where to buy the goods. to whom to sell it, what prices to put on it, how many days

What for? Manage yourself .... Just pay and that's it .. And at any moment they can charge you with a bat in the forehead for prevention or to other owners as an example and as a reminder ... But you console yourself that in your store you are your own boss and no one You are not occupied and is not politically controlled. You also earn a living ...
The cow is also free to pasture. And then - to the slaughter ...

I’m still waiting for you to explain to me how the Mongols exercised political control, but there is no answer from you.

Because the princes, before assuming office, came to the Horde and received instructions on how to live on ... The Mongols did not control the internal processes as you imagine it. And that is their mistake. Dali strengthened, unite and free ...

So the garrisons were and "governors" were) You hope you understand why they stood there?

Some verbiage ... And why did they stand there?

Well, come back, well, plunder. Only instead of 10 years of tribute, you will get prey only once every ten years, and it is not known whether the army’s campaign will pay off with what you can rob.

I'll be back if you stop paying annual tribute ...

It is very difficult for me to communicate with you ... Explain the obvious things .. Time is a pity .. You do not rush, think, think about it and then write ...

[co-creator]

Quote: tasha

What for? Manage yourself .... Just pay and that's it ..

This is called a tribute. Just talk about IGO.

Quote: tasha

And at any moment they can charge you with a bat in the forehead for prevention or to other owners as an example and for reminding ... And you console yourself that you are your own boss in your store and no one has occupied you and does not politically control you. You also earn a living ..

Of course you are nobody. I am my own boss and I decide when to trade, with whom to trade, and what to trade with. I’m just crying so that they wouldn’t interfere with trading, that's all. You can continue to puff out your cheeks and think that I work for you.

Quote: tasha

The cow is also free to pasture. And then - to the slaughter ...

the cow always has a shepherd or she is on a leash, otherwise she can run away. If there is no shepherd, then the cow grazes in the pen.

Quote: tasha

Because the princes, before assuming office, came to the Horde and received instructions on how to live on ...

What for? Simple question . Why should I go to the Horde personally to get a shortcut if they can just kill me there. Why is the dead prince a shortcut.

Quote: tasha

.The Mongols did not control the internal processes as you imagine it. And that is their mistake. Dali strengthened, unite and free ...

So I write about it. There was no IGO, there was a tribute to the steppes. Tribute was paid to the Khazars, Polovtsy, Bulgars and even Peter I PAYED CRIMEAN TATARS.
And here is why the princes of the race went personally to the khan for a question label. How did it happen that the prince who received the label immediately began to get rich although the label did not give any new resources.
No mistake. Either you are a nomad or you conquer a settled people and lead it, becoming yourself a settled people.

Quote: tasha

Some verbiage ... And why did they stand there?

Are you talking about your example about the Germans? ...
To control the conquered indigenous population and the indigenous administration.

Quote: tasha

I'll be back if you stop paying annual tribute ..

So it seems like no one refuses to pay tribute. For God's sake, he will send tribute to the horde and even a label will accept if it excites you. Only naturally, the prince will not personally go for the label, because the dead prince does not need a piece of leather.

Quote: tasha

It is very difficult for me to communicate with you ... Explain the obvious things .. Time is a pity .. You do not rush, think, think about it and then write ...

I, too, explain the obvious things to you. Although it seems to me you just do not understand what is TRIBUTE and what is IGO. It’s obvious for you to give political control (yoke) the same thing, so you won’t understand what I’m writing about.

[tasha]

You should be put in a jar and in a museum ... In the kunstkamera .. I have two options - either you are a troll of clean water, or something really is wrong with your head. Read below ...

[Han Tengri]

Quote: tasha

I have two options - either you are a troll of pure water, or something really is wrong with your head. Read below ...

[co-creator]

Quote: tasha

You should be put in a jar and in a museum ... In the kunstkamera .. I have two options - either you are a troll of clean water, or something really is wrong with your head. Read below ...

I have only one option, you chuvachёk with inflated ChSV. There’s nothing to talk about with you.

[co-creator]

tasha,

Quote: tasha

Actually, "I didn’t want to .." refers to my comment above from 07: 11

And aggressive stupidity is not an insult, it is the impression of communicating with you. Do I need it? Good luck ...

Well, how small you are starting to make excuses.
You just need to monitor your thought process and that’s it. Repeated again, could not resist.
And you don’t get sick.

[tasha]

Here you are difficult ... However, we agree that this is my mistake, I could not clearly explain to you.
I sincerely hope that at some point your thoughts will be put in more or less order and you will realize that I’m writing to you in a dozen comments ... Your comments will be read to me, but I don’t consider it possible and necessary to answer you ...

[co-creator]

I do not need your explanation from the word at all. Your mistake is that you are not consistent in your words and actions))
My thoughts are in full order, but you have trouble with this. You constantly confuse, confuse the story with the store and the mafia) An attempt to translate the dialogue into the historical plane ends in the traditional: "you would be put in a bank in the Kunstkamera." Well, just like a small child to her God. I understand that different jungars and Kazakhs have an inferiority complex, but where do you get it from?)

[co-creator]

long in stock.,
Which of you have I offended at least once? Not a single one, even in response to direct insults.

[Seal]

Hmmm. Again the standard, already quite boring, set of spells on the theme “everything was”, “everything was”, “everything was”, don’t dare say that it didn’t happen.
Bibliographic list
1. Plan Carpini J. Del. History of the Mongals // J. Del Plano Carpini. History of the Mongals / G. de Rubruk. Journey to the East / Book of Marco Polo. - M.: Thought, 1997.

Neither the first nor the second is not only the original, but even the first copies of the originals.
When trying to plot a route on maps based on the data indicated in these works, the result is complete nonsense. They are not documents. Fiction.

2. Rashid ad-Din. Collection of chronicles / Per. from Persian L. A. Khetagurova, editorial and notes by prof. A. A. Semenova. - M., L.: Publishing house of the Academy of Sciences of the USSR, 1952. - T. 1, 2,3; Fazlullah Rashid al-Din. Jami-at-Tawarikh. - Baku: "Nagyl Evi", 2011.

According to the traditional version of the story, Rashid is a Jew who converted to Islam. Not a single Jew or Muslim will use the Chinese animal calendar in his works, and even call the year the year of the pig.
Further. Rashid has this phrase.

"However century after century the reliable history of the Mongols and Turks was written down in the Mongolian language and Mongolian script, but was not collected and put in order; it was kept in the form of scattered sections in the treasury of the khans. It was hidden and concealed from being read by strangers and even by its own good people: they did not trust it to anyone, fearing that suddenly its readers would become knowledgeable and receive information about all the events recorded in it.”

Where did this “century after century” period come from, if the traditional version of history places Rashid in the 13th and early 14th centuries, when not even one century had passed. In my opinion, this paragraph clearly indicates that the “work of Rashid ad...) was written, well, at least several centuries after the 13th century.
In addition, “labor” is not a document. Fiction.

3. Ata-Melik Juvaini. Genghis Khan. History of the Conqueror of the World = Genghis Khan: the history of the world conqueror / Translated from the text of Mirza Muhammad Qazwini into English by J. E. Boyle, with a preface and bibliography by D. O. Morgan. Translation of the text from English into Russian by E. E. Kharitonova. - M .: "Publishing House MAGISTR-PRESS", 2004.

As Juvaini adds.
TRANSLATION OF A CHAPTER FROM "TARIKH I-JAHANGUSHAI" BY JUWAINI 1

/page 62/ About the departure of [Genghis Khan] (added - my footnote) conqueror of the world in the possession of Sultan 2 and the liberation of 3 Otrar

When the dust of the unrest of Kuchluk 4 and Tuk-Tugan 5 settled and the anxiety that arose because of them disappeared, then he [Genghis Khan] (added - my footnote) established ranks for the sons and great emirs and Noyans of thousands, hundreds and tens and instructed them, and appointed both wings and the vanguard (of his army), and established the “New Yasa” 6, and in the months of the year six hundred and fifteen 7 began the movement... 8

/page 63/. He sent ahead a group of messengers to the Sultan with a warning about his move in his direction, who were to warn [the Sultan] about revenge for what had previously happened due to the murder of merchants 9. And the one who warned him had already forgiven 10. When he arrived at the borders of Kayalyg, [one] of his [Kayalyg] emirs Arslan Khan was the first to meet [him] with peace and submission and in fear of him [Genghis Khan] (added - my footnote) with punishment, with humility and humiliation, he entrusted [him] himself and [his] property. And being distinguished by him [Genghis Khan] (added - my footnote) with goodwill, he and his people among those accompanying him [also] set out on the road. And they came to serve him from Bish-Balyg Idikut 11 with their detachment, and from Almalyg - Sygnak-tegin with men who were battle-hardened warriors, and thanks to them the number of [Genghis Khan’s troops] increased (added - my footnote). First of all, they approached the village [kasaba] Otrar...

/page 64/. Him [Genghis Khan] (added - my footnote) the royal tent was pitched opposite the citadel.

The Sultan allocated fifty thousand external troops to Gair Khan and sent him Karacha-Khajib with another ten thousand to reinforce him. And they properly fortified the citadel and the fortress walls and the towers of the city and collected a lot of military equipment. And Gair Khan was preparing for military operations inside the city and appointed soldiers and detachments to [all] gates. And he himself climbed into the tower, looked at the enemy and bit his elbows because of his rash act, since a huge army and a crowd of people formed a raging sea in the steppe and the air was filled with roars and screams, due to the neighing of horses hidden under armor and roars of lions dressed in armor:

The air turned blue, [and] the earth became black as coal,
There was a commotion in the sea to the sound of timpani.
He pointed his finger at the army in the steppe,
To an army that had no end.

And [Mongolian] (added - my footnote) the army surrounded the fortress with several rings. And when all the troops gathered, [Genghis Khan] (added - my footnote) appointed each leader to one side. He sent his eldest son with several groups of brave warriors and brave men to the borders of Jend and Barchlygkent, a group of emirs towards Khojand and Fenaket, and he himself went to Bukhara. He placed Chagatai and Ugetei at the head of the army, which was allocated for the siege of Otrar.
In addition, “labor” is not a document. Fiction.
4. Gorelik M. V. Early Mongolian armor (IX - first half of the XVI centuries) // Archeology, ethnography and anthropology of Mongolia. - Novosibirsk: Nauka, 1987. - S. 163-208; Gorelik M. V. Armies of the Mongol-Tatars of the X-XIV centuries: Military art, weapons, equipment. — M.: Eastern horizon, 2002; Gorelik M.V. Steppe battle (from the history of military affairs of the Tatar-Mongols) // Military affairs of the ancient and medieval population of North and Central Asia. - Novosibirsk: IIFF SO AN USSR, 1990. - S. 155-160.

The author's personal opinion is not a document.

5. Khudyakov Yu. S. Armament of medieval nomads of South Siberia and Central Asia. - Novosibirsk: Nauka, 1986; Khudyakov Yu. S. Armament of the nomads of South Siberia and Central Asia in the era of the developed Middle Ages. - Novosibirsk: IAET, 1997.

The author's personal opinion is not a document.

6. Sokolov A.I. "Weapons and armor. Siberian weapons: from the Stone Age to the Middle Ages. - Novosibirsk: "INFOLIO-press", 2003.

The author's personal opinion is not a document.

7. Stephen Turnbull. Genghis Khan & the Mongol Conquests 1190-1400 (ESSENTIAL HISTORIES 57), Osprey, 2003; Stephen Turnbull. Mongol Warrior 1200-1350 (WARRIOR 84), Osprey, 2003; Stephen Turnbull. The Mongol Invasions of Japan 1274 and 1281 (CAMPAIGN 217), Osprey, 2010; Stephen Turnbull. The Great Wall of China 221 BC – AD 1644 (FORTRESS 57), Osprey, 2007.
The author's personal opinion is not a document.

[Seal]

Quote: tasha

Because the princes, before taking office, came to the Horde and received instructions on how to live further... The Mongols did not control internal processes

Here is what professor at Kazan University Kovalevsky writes about this:
“Among the artifacts of the ancient Mongolian culture since the time of the Genghis Khanov can be recognized a few words on stone, recently interpreted by Schmitt, letters from the Persian kings Argun and Uldzeit to the French king, also interpreted by Schmitt in a pamphlet published by him in St. Petersburg in 1824 ... Europe still knows one type of manuscript is Mongol, written in Mongolian letters in the Tatar language, for example, the Persian translation of the novel Bakhtiyar - Name. The letter itself for a long time remained uncertain in relation to any people. Finally, a number of Orientalist orientalists decided that the letter was East Turkic or Uyghur. That is, it belongs to the Turkestan Uyghurs, who, although they are considered Turks, but in ancient times it was a Tatar tribe. ”
It turns out that the Great Mongol Empire retained only a few modest epithets. One inscription on the rock, several letters and a novel. Honestly a bit. Moreover, the novel is actually written in Tatar, not Mongolian! Only letters, according to historians, are Mongolian orientalists.
Yes, and all these rare texts, it turns out, are translated by the same person - a certain type of Schmitt, or maybe Smith, which is basically the same.
For some reason, the Turks are the descendants of the Mongol conquerors! And only historians know that the Turks were undoubtedly the Mongols. Turks don’t think so.
But, on the other hand, we all know that the Mongol khans clothed all their laws in the form of so-called khan labels, the so-called paizi. And, judging by the chronicles, there were many of these khan’s labels. Here, they tell us, are the authentic monuments to the great Mongol - Tatar conquerors. But let's see what we know about them today. It is believed that during the Mongol-Tatar yoke in Rus' there were many documents written in Russian - these were treaties of princes and private correspondence on birch bark letters, etc. It must be assumed that there are no less Mongolian texts left, because they were from the central government and had to be protected especially carefully. What do we have in reality?
We have two or three khan labels found in the nineteenth century. And not in state archives, but in private historical collections.
For example, the well-known payza khan Tokhtamysh was discovered only in 1834, among the securities that were once in the archives of Krakow, but at that time were, for some reason, in the hands of the Polish historian Narushevich. He took the documents home from the state archive, so to speak for homework, and did not return it. It happens just like a schoolboy who forgot to return a book to the library at the time.
Regarding this payzi, Prince Obolensky wrote:
"This document allows you to positively answer the question of what alphabet the ancient Khan payzi were written for the Grand Dukes of Russia ... Of the payzz known to us, this is the second such."
It is also known that the Tokhtamysh label is "written down by diverse Mongolian letters in the form of infinitely motley letters, making them completely dissimilar to the already published Timur-Kutluya label."
There were only two supposedly Mongol khan labels.
Others, later from the Crimean khans, were already in Polish, Tatar, Italian and Arabic.
In this case, both decrees of the same time. Because Tokhtamysh and Timur are Kutluk contemporaries. But they wrote their khan's initials, it turns out, in a completely different language and writing. This is strange. It cannot be that within ten years, the writing in the hypothetical Mongolian language has completely and completely changed? With all this, it is known that writing in specific languages ​​changes slowly over the centuries.
And that is characteristic, both Mongolian khan labels were found in the West. And where are similar payzi from the Russian archives? This question came to mind after the discovery of the label of Khan Tokhtamysh to Prince Obolensky.
He wrote: “The discovery of the Tokhtamyshev label prompted me to use various efforts in searching for the original Khan times of the Golden Horde of labels in order to resolve the painful question of many of our historians and Orientalists about whether the originals of such documents are in the Central Archive of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Moscow. Unfortunately, the effect of all the searches was the complete conviction that all other original labels - payzi from the time of the Mongol - Tatar yoke, perhaps more interesting ones died in the fire. "
If shorter and more prosaic, we get the following. In the official Russian archives for some reason there are no traces of labels in the Mongolian language. There are two labels of Tokhtamysh and Timur, which were found - but not by us, but in the West and for some reason under suspicious circumstances, in private and not in state archives, and scribbled in different letters. This suggests that we are faced with a fake. Therefore, the letters are different. Counterfeiters did not agree with each other.

[Seal]

Quote: Luga

1. Was there a military defeat of China in the first half of the 13th century? If yes, then who committed it?
2. Was there a military defeat of the power of the Khorezmshahs in the first half of the 13th century? If yes, then who committed it?
3. Was there a military defeat of Russia in the first half of the 13th century? If yes, then
a) who committed it?
b) what are its consequences (political, economic, or none at all)

To questions 1, 2 and 3, the most correct answer would be: “This is unknown, because there is no historically reliable data for that period.”
Regarding the consequences of the so-called Tatar-Mongol yoke, as is known, the Russian Academy of Sciences twice announced competitions for the development of this topic in the first half of the 19th century. Alas, no one presented anything.

[garlic68]

“Regarding the consequences of the so-called Tatar-Mongol yoke, as is known, the Russian Academy of Sciences twice announced competitions for the development of this topic in the first half of the 19th century. Alas, no one presented anything.”[/quote] In the old understanding of the word IGO is a tax , and we still pay taxes even without the Tatar-Mongols. That is, everyone has always had IGO, the question is what to call it, but even the Nigerian-Chukchi one... is just as absurd as the Tatar-Mongolian one.

[1970mk]

Thank you...substantive...to the point....well-reasoned....sources provided..