Military Review

Light cruisers like "Svetlana"

122
In this series of articles we will try to evaluate the project of domestic light cruisers of the Svetlana type, comparing it with similar ships of the leading fleets of the world, and also examine the extent to which the post-war completion of ships of this type was justified.


History the design and construction of the first domestic turbine light cruisers is described in great detail in the literature, and we will not repeat it. But if someone wants to quickly refresh his memory, then perhaps the best way is to re-read the chapters from the book “Guards cruisers of Stalin” by Alexander Chernyshev, which were already laid out on “Topvar” separate articles.


Light cruiser "Profintern", aka "Red Crimea", nee "Svetlana"


We will consider the creation of light cruisers of the Svetlana type from a slightly different angle and try to figure out why these cruisers were created at all and why ships of this class were built in other countries. By doing this, we will be able to assess how successful the shipbuilding engineers are in their designs.

Unfortunately, sources contain a lot of conflicting information about Svetlana. We will not try to dot the “i”, but still consider the main “oddities” in terms of tactical and technical characteristics of cruisers, because without this comparison with foreign ships can not be correct.

It should be noted that the analogue of "Svetlana" in other fleets it is necessary to count not any light cruisers, but only those that carried the armor belt. This was a fundamental difference from armored light cruisers. As the experience of the Russo-Japanese War (and not only it) has shown, the armored deck with bevels alone does not give the ship the required degree of protection. Of course, the armored deck is useful if only because it protects the cruiser's cars and boilers from fragments and other effects of shells exploding in the hull. But it does not at all interfere with the flow of water into the ship when the latter is damaged in the area of ​​the waterline. The developers of the "carapace" armored deck assumed that since its bevels would be attached to the hull below sea level, a shell hitting the waterline or even slightly below would explode on the armor. And, although the side will be perforated, there will be no serious flooding.

But it was an erroneous point of view. As practice has shown, in this case the armor from a strong blow and concussion departed from the fixings, or it was “handed over” to the fixation of the armor plates at the side. In any case, the armored cruisers received almost as extensive flooding as if the ship had no armor at all. Suffice it to recall the cruiser "Varyag". He received four hits on the waterline in the port side.



As a result, the cruiser acquired such an "elegant" list that it was out of the question to continue the battle.



By the way, the above photo is highly recommended for viewing to anyone who reproaches the commander of the Varyag, V.F. Rudnev that he did not go on a breakthrough again.

Cruisers, whose sides are armored, have no such problems. They do not get any serious flooding, rolls and do not lose speed when getting hits at the waterline, unless they were hit by heavy projectiles that cruiser armor could not withstand. Thus, the armor belt gives the light cruiser a fundamental advantage over its armored "fellow", which is so weighty that it makes one think about separating the "armored" light cruisers into a separate class of ships.

Russian "Svetlana" received armored board. In addition to the Russian Empire, the "armored" light cruisers were built only by England, Germany and Austria-Hungary. It is surprising that each of the four countries had its own concept of light cruisers, and these concepts in no case completely coincided.

Domestic MGSH for light cruisers set the following tasks:
1. Intelligence service.
2. Sentinel and guard service.
3. Actions against destroyers; support of their destroyers, participation in the development of success.
4. A single battle with the same type of enemy cruisers.
5. Setting minefields in enemy waters.

The primary task of the Russian cruiser was to serve in the squadron, protecting it from enemy destroyers and bringing its destroyers to the attack, but this does not mean that ships of this type should not have acted on communications at all. They were not cruisers in the classical sense of the word, because they were not intended for raiding in the oceans and remote sea areas. But it was assumed that ships of the type “Svetlana” would participate in active mine settings and interrupt enemy shipping together with destroyers, i.e. act against enemy communications within the Baltic (and for the Black Sea series, respectively, the Black) Sea. Svetlana-class cruisers were not conceived as killer-cruisers, but it was assumed that in a one-on-one battle, the domestic cruiser should still have an advantage or, at least, not give in to enemy ships of the same class.

Very close to the Russian concept was Austro-Hungarian. We can say that she repeated in everything the domestic understanding of the light cruiser, with one exception - the Austro-Hungarians believed that "Tanks they don’t fight with tanks ”and the only destroyers listed as adversaries for their cruisers. Well, if all of a sudden you encounter enemy cruisers, you should have gone under the protection of heavy ships. At the same time, the armored belt was just to guarantee that a random projectile would not slow down the "Austrian" speed in retreat.

Germany. A distinctive feature of its concept was that of all countries, it alone provided for its light cruisers the destruction of enemy trade in ocean communications. The Germans wanted to get a universal cruiser that could both serve in the squadron, lead destroyers, act in the ocean, and, if necessary, fight with British ships of its class.

Unlike the Germans, the British preferred specialization to universalism, but here some explanations are needed. After the Russian-Japanese war, the British considered that, in addition to full-fledged armored cruisers, they would only need scout cruisers, designed to lead destroyer squadrons and reconnaissance. No other tasks (actions on communications or battles with enemy cruisers) were set for the scouts.

However, the famous John Arbetnot Fisher, when he was the first sea lord, considered that the small cruisers had completely outlived theirs. The British admiral assumed that the light cruiser was too unstable artillery platform and that large destroyers would cope with the tasks of reconnaissance, because, due to their size, the leaders would not be needed. As for the battle with the enemy cruisers, then, according to J. Fisher, this was the task for the battle cruisers.

But this idea of ​​Fisher was not crowned with success. An attempt to build a large destroyer (they became the famous "Swift") led to the creation of a ship with a displacement of more than 2000 tons, which, nevertheless, by its capabilities, with the exception of speed, was inferior in all things to cruisers scouts. Yes, and with speed everything was completely ambiguous, because, although the ship developed 35 nodes, the fuel consumption was fantastic. Thus, the creation of the ship, combining the functionality of the destroyer and the cruiser suffered a fiasco, and the British fleet returned to the construction of the scouts, and their tasks remained the same.

But later the British drew attention to the danger arising for their ocean transport routes from the increasingly numerous German light cruisers. Armored cruisers could not effectively counteract them, because they were relatively slow-moving, linear - because they were very expensive and could not be built as massively as before, armored cruisers, and scouts - because they were too weak for this.

The way out was found in the creation of “trade defenders” - light cruisers of the “town” type (city), which had sufficient seaworthiness and fire power to counteract German cruisers in the ocean. At the same time, the British did not abandon the construction of scout cruisers, who eventually received armor and powerful enough artillery, comparable to that of the "cities". It can be said that the two lines of English cruising, the "cities" and the scouts, eventually merged into a single type of high-speed, armored and well-armed light cruiser.

Russian "Svetlana" were laid in 1913 year. For comparison, we will take the following light cruisers:

1. Koenigsberg, Germany. The best Kaiser light cruisers, the first of which was laid in the 1914 year and which were laid on the 1916 year inclusive. Strictly speaking, it would be better to choose a Wittelsbach-type cruiser, because by the date of the bookmark it is the same year as the Svetlana, but in the end, the difference in a year is not only great.

2. Chester, UK. The last representative of the British "cities", laid in 1914

3. “Caroline” is a “descendant” of scouts-cruisers and the first representative of light cruisers of the type “C”, revered in the English fleet rather successful. Also laid out in 1914.

4. Danae, United Kingdom. The most advanced light cruiser of Great Britain during the First World War, the first of which was laid in 1916. It is, of course, not the same age as the Svetlana by the date of the bookmark, but it is still interesting to consider the ideas of the Svetlana against the background of the British experience of the cruiser.

5. Admiral Spoon, Austria-Hungary. I must say that this cruiser is absolutely not suitable for comparison with the ships listed above. It was laid a lot before them all, in 1908 g, and 5-6 years for the then pace of scientific and technological progress in the naval business, this is a whole era. But this is the only type of armored cruiser of Austria-Hungary (and also one of the most successful light cruisers in the world at the time of entry into service), so we will not ignore it.

The main tactical and technical characteristics of cruisers are shown in the table below.



The values ​​in brackets for the displacement of Svetlana-type cruisers arose for the simple reason that the displacement of this cruiser is not quite clear. Often 6800 t normal and 7200 t full displacement are indicated for Svetlan, but these figures cause some doubt, and the sources, alas, enchant the matter.

Take, for example, a very detailed monograph by A. Chernyshov. "Stalin's guards cruisers: Red Caucasus, Red Crimea, Chervona Ukraine." On page 16 in the table “Comparative characteristics of projects of cruisers for the Black and Baltic Seas” we read that 6800 T is the normal displacement of Svetlana (Baltic) type cruisers. This is very similar to the truth and logically follows from the history of the design of the ship. However, a page earlier, where the respected author gave the masses of the Svetlana cruiser, the normal displacement was calculated within 6950 t for some reason. A little further, on p. 69, the author apparently tried to somehow reconcile this discrepancy and indicated that 6 The 950 T is the normal displacement of the cruiser, and the 6 800 is the standard.

It is well known that the standard displacement is the weight of a fully equipped ship with a crew, but without stocks of fuel, lubricants and drinking water in tanks. Full displacement is equal to the standard plus full reserves of fuel, lubricants and drinking water, and the normal takes into account only half of such reserves.

In the calculation of the mass of the Svetlana cruiser A. Chernyshov indicates the presence of 500 tons of fuel, therefore, it can be argued that with a normal displacement in 6 950 t the standard should be below 6 450 t, but not at all 6 800 t. The term "standard displacement" in military shipbuilding appeared only in 1922 g as a result of the ratification of the Washington Maritime Agreement, and before that, the normal and full displacement was widely used, but not the standard and nothing in the documents of the Russian Empire tsya not.

The next mystery is the ship’s total displacement in the amount of 7 200 t. It is only 400 t more than normal (6 800 t), although it must be at least 500 t, since the normal displacement of the 500 fuel mass is ½ full fuel supply. However, if we look at the fuel data, we will find another tangle of contradictions.

A. Chernyshev, on p. 15, reports that, in accordance with the draft design, the normal supply of fuel should have been 500 tons, including 130 tons of coal and 370 tons of oil. The total fuel supply was 1 167 tons (probably all the same 130 tons of coal and 1 037 tons of oil). In this case, the full fuel supply was different from the normal one on the 667 t and one would expect a total displacement of 7 467 - 7 617 t (with a normal displacement of 6 800 - 6 950 t). Later on, on page 64, A. Chernyshev indicates that the above-mentioned fuel reserves figures are correct for the cruiser “Profintern” in 1928 (i.e. for the completed “Svetlana”) but literally right there (on page 69) reporting the full supply of 1 290 tons for the initial Svetlana project, 1 660 tons (!) for the Profintern on 1928 g and only 950 tons (!!) for the Red Crimea cruiser. But these three completely different cruisers are one and the same ship: the “Svetlana” built into 1913 g was completed and transferred to the fleet in 1928 g under the new name “Profintern”, which was replaced by the new name “Red Crimea” in 1939!

What is the reason for such discrepancies? Most likely, on receipt of the technical assignment, domestic engineers have developed a draft design of a “Svetlana-type cruiser” with a displacement of 6 800 t ”. But later, as it often happens, as the development of a more detailed project, the displacement of the ship went up. At the same time, it was being completed under a modified project, with additional weapons and equipment, and, of course, its displacement has increased even more.
In view of the above, we can assume that as of 1913 g normal and total displacement pledged in the Baltic cruisers was not 6 800 and 7 200 t respectively, and the 6 950 and 7 617 t, which was reflected in the table of performance characteristics compared cruisers.

Another mystery of our cruisers was their range. Surprisingly, but the fact - reference books give the values ​​differing many times! For example, the same A. Chernyshev gives for the “Red Crimea” only some 1 227-1 230 miles on the 12 nodes, but for the “Profintern” and A. Chernyshov and I.F. Flowers indicate 3 350 miles on 14 nodes! The answer here most likely lies in the fact that for the “Red Crimea” data is used as of 1944 g, when, due to war and lack of proper maintenance, the power plant strongly “passed”.

According to the draft design, the Svetlana-type cruisers were calculated for the 2000 range of miles at the speed of the 24 node. Probably, something, as always, did not go according to plan, and the ship’s displacement nevertheless increased during the design, so 3750 miles for Svetlana and 3350 miles for Profintern look reasonable at 14 nodes, if not even understated.

We will return to this issue when we compare the Svetlana power plant with the EU of foreign cruisers, but later. And the next article will be devoted to the comparison of the artillery of these cruisers.

To be continued ...
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  1. Olezhek
    Olezhek 26 December 2017 15: 54 New
    +8
    And one more "reference" article on the fleet. yes
    not bad.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      26 December 2017 16: 22 New
      12
      Huh. I was thinking - the cycle of Glory at Moonsund ended, so would purcua not be?
      1. avt
        avt 26 December 2017 17: 20 New
        +8
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Huh. I was thinking - the cycle of Glory at Moonsund ended, so would purcua not be?

        Everything is more fun. However, without giving in to constructive advantages about
        But it was an erroneous point of view. As practice has shown, in this case the armor from a strong blow and concussion departed from the fixings, or it was “handed over” to the fixation of the armor plates at the side. In any case, the armored cruisers received almost as extensive flooding as if the ship had no armor at all. Suffice it to recall the cruiser "Varyag". He received four hits on the waterline in the port side.
        and fair
        By the way, the above photo is highly recommended for viewing to anyone who reproaches the commander of the Varyag, V.F. Rudnev that he did not go on a breakthrough again.
        Rather, it should be said that the cruiser, in fact, holding 18 knots due to overheating of the bearings (well, the Yankees were then not able to construct complex steamships normally), locked in a bottle Chemulpo had no options for a breakthrough. There were three options - shameful surrender, flooding without a fight, and actually a one-way trip - battle. request And no other not karapasnaya armor here would help not on ,, mulimeter "advance in the breakthrough.
        1. Trapperxnumx
          Trapperxnumx 26 December 2017 17: 34 New
          +1
          Quote: avt
          And no other not karapasnaya armor here would help not on ,, mulimeter "advance in the breakthrough.

          I’m certainly an ignoramus, but from the description of Varyag’s damage done by the Japanese after raising the ship, it follows that the real underwater hole was “The hole was 1,97 × 1,01 m in size on the port side of the waterline (the bottom edge of the hole went 0,8 m below the waterline), between the second and third chimney. "Unfortunately, the type of projectile is not specified.
          In principle, in the presence of an armored side in 76 mm. the hole was either not so extensive or it could not be at all and the cruiser could continue to move. Or not?
          I will be glad if correct)))
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            26 December 2017 17: 55 New
            +6
            Quote: Trapper7
            truly underwater hole

            Ask, but what about the rest? Are they not real? :)))
            Quote: Trapper7
            the bottom edge of the hole went 0,8 m below the waterline

            so it doesn’t matter, in the area of ​​the waterline it will overwhelm in any case, at least slightly higher, even lower
            Quote: Trapper7
            In principle, in the presence of an armored side in 76 mm. the hole was either not so extensive or it could not be at all and the cruiser could continue to move. Or not?

            With a two-meter armored belt, where a 1,3 m thread would sit under water, so it could completely do without a hole
            1. Trapperxnumx
              Trapperxnumx 26 December 2017 18: 03 New
              +2
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Are they not real? :)))

              Not completely underwater)))) it simply means that even in the event of a defeat on board and its penetration, if there is armor on it, damage to the side will not be so significant and may not lead to such a significant flow of water, and can also be more quickly repaired by a team . At the same time, again, there could have been no penetration of the armor, if there was armor))) and therefore the ship can continue on its course even without artillery.
              This is in favor of having an armored belt.
          2. avt
            avt 26 December 2017 18: 04 New
            +2
            Quote: Trapper7
            the cruiser could continue to move. Or not?

            WHERE ? Well, just look WHERE he stood driven by the inpatient and WHAT forces opposed him. There was only one chance - gaining a second space and ballistic trajectory to Port Arthur, or better to Vladivostok.
        2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          26 December 2017 17: 41 New
          +9
          Greetings karekotically! drinks
          Quote: avt
          Rather, it should be said that the cruiser in fact holding the nodes 18 due to overheating of the bearings

          Surely - perhaps still 17, but I will not argue :)))
          Quote: avt
          had no options for a breakthrough

          This is clear to anyone who has preserved even a grain of common sense.
          Quote: avt
          And no other not karapasnaya armor here would help not on ,, mulimeter "advance in the breakthrough.

          Of course. Although ... We take the "Varangian" and make him normal side armor, only to make sure that it covers the board along the entire length, from the stem and to the stem. And give two armored belts (upper and lower). And six inches to stand reserved, you can even in the towers. And, since they started talking about the towers, a twelve-inch two-gun bow and aft, please. And the speed ... yes let it be 17 knots, "Glory" and so break through laughing Especially if with shells arr 1907 .... fellow
          1. avt
            avt 26 December 2017 18: 11 New
            +2
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Surely - perhaps still 17, but I will not argue :)))

            hi Well, yes - with "cents" rounded up in favor of, "Varyag" bully
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            This is clear to anyone who has preserved even a grain of common sense.

            request Well, as objective reality shows, not everyone
            Quote: Trapper7
            In principle, in the presence of an armored side in 76 mm. the hole was either not so extensive or it could not be at all and the cruiser could continue to move. Or not?

            request
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            And, since they started talking about the towers, a twelve-inch two-gun bow and aft, please. And the speed ... yes, let it be 17 knots, "Glory" will break through, and so especially if with shells arr 1907 ....

            But, but! This is sacred and a theme for Oleg! bully Although you describe your favorite dream of S.O. Makarov .And for example, it was probably better to take from Kostenko damage analysis. There, it seems, if memory serves, and too lazy to reach for a book bully , the picture was with the departed armor plate on the "Eagle" and an explanation of the set of water. So it would probably be clearer.
          2. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 26 December 2017 20: 55 New
            +2
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Although ... We take the "Varangian" and make him normal side armor, only to make sure that it covers the board along the entire length, from the stem and to the stem. And give two armored belts (upper and lower). And six inches to stand reserved, you can even in the towers.

            Then, according to the resulting specification, we order St. Louis in the USA. Or Pennsylvania. Or "Kent" in Britain. Or, at worst, a couple more “Bayans” in France. smile
            But there were still Italians with their ready-made Garibaldis.
          3. reg
            reg 26 December 2017 22: 25 New
            +1
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Surely - perhaps still 17, but I will not argue :)))

            Even after the “outstanding Russian repair” on October 16.10.1903, 20,5, he still held XNUMX knots.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              26 December 2017 23: 05 New
              +5
              Quote: reg
              Even after the “outstanding Russian repair” on October 16.10.1903, 20,5, he still held XNUMX knots.

              Oooo, whom we see :))))
              No, I didn’t hold it, we read the documents.
              1. reg
                reg 26 December 2017 23: 26 New
                0
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                No, I didn’t hold it, we read the documents.

                So read.
              2. The comment was deleted.
              3. Comrade
                Comrade 1 January 2018 01: 42 New
                0
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Oooo, whom we see :))))

                laughing
        3. Rurikovich
          Rurikovich 26 December 2017 19: 06 New
          +5
          Quote: avt
          There were three options - shameful surrender, flooding without a fight, and actually a one-way trip - battle.

          hi Sin Az drinks
          There was also the fourth option, which Rudnev successfully selected - a battle without a sad end yes
          Knowing that this ship is doomed, because the triple degree of the Japanese bastions, even for a serviceable cruiser with 23 knots, is not "affordable", but in those conditions with 17-18 knots, even less so, Rudnev took the battle to ... the first shell. And the sheep are safe and the wolves are full ... The truth is so far unfolding, “Asama” still succumbed to the heat, but the game is done. The ship took the battle - then there will be no shame. Everything, the curtain. hi And the fact that they were making a breakthrough with 9 knots (such as difficult hydrological conditions, and even the “Korean” aki churupakh) but returned at 12 (despite the holes) speaks for itself request
          1. avt
            avt 26 December 2017 19: 34 New
            +4
            Quote: Rurikovich
            There was also the fourth option, which Rudnev successfully selected - a battle without a sad end

            drinks No, this is just the merit of the crew and commander, for which they honor and glory. Lucky one who is lucky.
          2. reg
            reg 26 December 2017 22: 31 New
            0
            Quote: Rurikovich
            There was also the fourth option, which Rudnev successfully selected - a battle without a sad end

            33 killed people just to fulfill the formalities of the charter, is it "without a sad end"? Do you think their widows and children would agree with you?
            And the cruiser handed over to the Japanese in a cunning way, what is the “end” with this?
        4. Alf
          Alf 26 December 2017 19: 45 New
          0
          Quote: avt
          a cruiser in fact holding 18 knots due to overheating of the bearings (well, the Yankees were not able to construct complex steamships normally then),

          Apparently, Retvisan, who had no problems with cars and was built by the same Kramp in the same shipyard with the same Belleville boilers, is not a complicated steamer.
          1. avt
            avt 26 December 2017 19: 50 New
            0
            Quote: Alf
            Apparently, Retvisan, who had no problems with cars and was built by the same Kramp in the same shipyard with the same Belleville boilers, is not a complicated steamer.

            Or two times, they couldn’t do it the same way, namely stability is a sign of mastery bully
          2. Rurikovich
            Rurikovich 26 December 2017 19: 55 New
            +2
            Quote: Alf
            Apparently, Retvisan, who had no problems with cars and was built by the same Kramp in the same shipyard with the same Belleville boilers

            "Retvisan", like "Varangian" had Nikloss boilers wink Teach materiel yes
            And the whole charm of the situation is not in the boilers, but in the commander and his attitude to his ship and crew.
            Just a reasonable question - why "Retvisan", built at the same shipyard at the same time as the "Varyag" and having the same boilers with it, had no problems with them, unlike the "Varyag"?
            Maybe it's not about the boilers ??? what
            1. Alf
              Alf 26 December 2017 20: 57 New
              0
              Quote: Rurikovich
              "Retvisan", like "Varangian" had Nikloss boilers

              Yes, to blame, confused.
              Quote: Rurikovich
              Just a reasonable question - why "Retvisan", built at the same shipyard at the same time as the "Varyag" and having the same boilers with it, had no problems with them, unlike the "Varyag"?
              Maybe it's not about the boilers ???

              Most likely not in boilers. After climbing to Chemulpo, the cruiser reached Japan at its own speed. And until 1916, Soya also went under her native Nikloss. What does it mean? Maybe Rudnev as a commander was not so hot?
              1. Rurikovich
                Rurikovich 26 December 2017 21: 19 New
                0
                Quote: Alf
                Maybe Rudnev as a commander was not so hot

                So vague doubts torment me .... what
              2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                26 December 2017 21: 30 New
                +4
                Quote: Alf
                After climbing to Chemulpo, the cruiser reached Japan at its own speed.

                So what? How does this contradict the cruiser’s 17-node move? A bunch of facts on Varangian repairs in arthur, a bunch of correspondence about his problems with boilers that arose long before Rudnev, a bunch of reports ... Nooo, Rudnev is to blame for everything laughing
                1. Alf
                  Alf 26 December 2017 21: 48 New
                  0
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  a lot of correspondence about his problems with boilers that arose long before Rudnev,

                  Why didn’t the same bunch of problems with boilers come from Schensnovich? The boilers are the same. Maybe coal is different? laughing
                2. reg
                  reg 26 December 2017 22: 42 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  A bunch of facts on Varangian repairs in arthur, a bunch of correspondence about his problems with boilers that arose long before Rudnev, a bunch of reports ... Nooo, Rudnev is to blame for everything

                  The weak course of the Varangian is precisely known from the reports of Rudnev. Official trials contradicted these reports. They were shortly before the reports.
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    26 December 2017 23: 26 New
                    +2
                    Quote: reg
                    The weak course of the Varangian is precisely known from the reports of Rudnev. Official trials contradicted these reports.

                    Oh really?
                    I will not recall what happened to Varyag upon arrival in Arthur, nor the report of Skrydlov about his disgusting chassis, nor the accident, nor the report of Nozikov, I will limit myself only to the November conclusion
                    In order to analyze all the circumstances of the cruiser’s misfortunes and work out the necessary measures, by the order of the squadron chief on November 8, 1902, a new expanded commission of ship mechanics was created, headed by the former chairman, 1st-rank captain I.P. Uspensky, the commander of Poltava. Having discussed the results of previous tests, the commission on November 16 brought the cruiser to new tests to identify the main signs and nature of the problems when the speed of the ship increased to a relatively safe limit for the mechanisms. 16 knots (105 rpm) turned out to be such a limit, at which a sharp knock in the mechanisms that appeared with the beginning of the movement became more deaf and threatening.
                    1. reg
                      reg 26 December 2017 23: 41 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      I will not recall what happened to Varyag upon arrival in Arthur, nor the report of Skrydlov about his disgusting chassis, nor the accident, nor the report of Nozikov, I will limit myself only to the November conclusion

                      Do not limit yourself to anything. Runet, this is not an area where it is customary to limit the flight of imagination. If necessary, I will find bag of such "evidence" there as well.
                      But the essence is nevertheless simple - Kramp's company was a respected shipbuilding company with a worldwide reputation. Which built ships and ships that are excellent in their performance characteristics, for the fleets of the whole world. And she built well. The same Retvisan is a good example of this. It’s just that his headmaster’s hands grew from another place. And he also grew these hands from his subordinates from the right place. Here Retvizan and went without complaints. Unlike the Varangian.
                      Aren't you surprised at the fact that after 3 years the Varangian already needed repairs? The new ship!
                      You recall how many months Victory needed repairs? And Oslyab? Is also Crump to blame?
                      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        27 December 2017 08: 14 New
                        +2
                        Quote: reg
                        But the essence is nonetheless simple

                        You screwed up once again
                        Quote: reg
                        Here Retvizan and went without complaints.

                        Boo ha ha! No complaints ...
                      2. Comrade
                        Comrade 1 January 2018 01: 50 New
                        +1
                        Quote: reg
                        Kramp's company was a respected world famous shipbuilding company. Which built ships for fleets around the world.

                        Japan, Turkey and Russia are "the whole world"? I'm afraid you confused Kramp with Armstrong, nothing happens.
                      3. Comrade
                        Comrade 1 January 2018 17: 57 New
                        +2
                        Runet, this is not an area where it is customary to limit the flight of imagination. Kramp's company was a respected world famous shipbuilding company. Which built ships for fleets around the world.

                        Your fantasy is rampant. Here is a list of ships and ships built by Kramp from 1890 to 1904. And how many export ships are there? For convenience, they are underlined in red.
                    2. reg
                      reg 27 December 2017 10: 47 New
                      0
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      No complaints ...

                      Yes, no complaints. Like the ships built by this shipyard in other fleets.
                      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        27 December 2017 11: 30 New
                        +3
                        Quote: reg
                        Yes, no complaints

                        Sorry. You have already been recommended so many times to learn materiel that I won’t do it again - it’s all the same useless.
                        And there were complaints about the Retvizan EU, and quite serious. Another question is that the circumstances were such that he practically didn’t have to run at full speed (unlike the Varangian), so they turned out to be slightly retouched
                      2. Comrade
                        Comrade 1 January 2018 11: 14 New
                        0
                        Quote: reg
                        Like the ships built by this shipyard in other fleets.

                        In which fleets, please specify. Besides the light cruisers “Kasagi” in the Japanese fleet and “Mecidiye” in the Turkish fleet, what other warships and in which fleets can you name, eh? Here is the beginning of the 20th century, what other cruisers or armadillos were built by Kramp for export at that time?
          3. reg
            reg 26 December 2017 22: 39 New
            0
            Quote: Alf
            Apparently, Retvisan, who had no problems with cars and was built by the same Kramp in the same shipyard with the same Belleville boilers, is not a complicated steamer.

            And is it only Retvisan? Krampa Shipyard was a first-class shipyard at that time. And built relatively European first-class shipyards inexpensively.
            But there was a jamb for the Russian fleet. The crews of the constructed ships partially escaped to the USA for permanent residence. Then they had to be brought in and not allowed to go ashore.
            As for the Varangian, the operators exploded him. The mechanics of the Varangian had never seen such machines that stood there. These were generally the first four-cylinder vehicles of the Russian fleet. Yes, and with different tricky gadgets. Nothing surprising, the drop in their performance was simply disastrous.
            And further. Nikloss boilers.
            1. Comrade
              Comrade 1 January 2018 02: 06 New
              0
              Quote: reg
              Krampa Shipyard was a first-class shipyard at that time. And built relatively European first-class shipyards inexpensively.

              Regarding which shipyards, can you clarify? Have you tried to compare the cost of "Mikasa" and "Maine"? When you compare, you will see that you are mistaken about the "cheapness" of Kramp. Yes, you look at the newspaper clippings of the time when Kramp was scolded for high prices. Comparing it with English and German prices is really expensive, they scolded him correctly.
          4. Nehist
            Nehist 28 December 2017 02: 08 New
            +2
            No, it’s just that on Retvisan there was an intelligent head of fur who drove his wards and almost spent the night in the engine room
        5. reg
          reg 26 December 2017 22: 20 New
          0
          Quote: avt
          Rather, it should be said that the cruiser in fact holding the nodes 18 due to overheating of the bearings

          Bearing overheating? What other troubles come up with?
          Quote: avt
          (Well, the Yankees did not know how to construct complex steamships normally)

          What? And who then knew how, if they did not know how?
          Quote: avt
          had no options for a breakthrough at all.

          It's right. And the Varyag’s exit into the strait was ... uh ... a mistake. Least.
          Quote: avt
          There were three options - shameful surrender, flooding without a fight, and actually a one-way trip - battle.

          And what do you think the change occurred?
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            26 December 2017 23: 27 New
            +1
            Quote: reg
            What? And who then knew how, if they did not know how?

            And to this Kramp himself answered you
            Meanwhile, Kramp, as always, well-informed, was already in a hurry with “explanations” about the emergency condition of the Varyag refrigerators. In a letter addressed to the GUKiS, he argued that leakage in refrigerators is an almost inevitable phenomenon “on ships of the whole world”, that mechanics from all advanced countries have been working hard to solve this problem for a long time, but no one has yet found a satisfactory solution and the causes of the problems are still unknown "To the whole engineering world." Worked hard to solve this problem and the company Krampa, which, although not successful, but does not despair. One of the reasons for the malfunctions on the Varyag, according to Kramp, was electrolysis (obviously, electrochemical corrosion. - R.M.), which was especially dangerous on the Varyag with its numerous electrical installations. And there is nothing surprising, Crump assured that Commander Baer had replaced 1500 pipes and did not complain about it.
            1. reg
              reg 26 December 2017 23: 48 New
              +1
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              And to this Kramp himself answered you

              And what, do you disagree with him in something? The problem was only one thing, to identify and change unusable tubes on time. Those. MAINTENANCE mechanisms. The mechanics have such a job. This is for you to know for the future.
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                27 December 2017 08: 15 New
                +2
                Quote: reg
                And what, do you disagree with him in something? The problem was only one thing: to identify and change unusable tubes on time

                And how many tubes changed on Askold? Bogatyr?
                1. reg
                  reg 27 December 2017 10: 49 New
                  0
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  And how many tubes changed on Askold? Bogatyr?

                  Maybe less. But you have to pay for everything in our world. The compactness and lightness of Nikloss boilers had to be paid for with the thoroughness and laboriousness of their maintenance.
            2. 27091965
              27091965 27 December 2017 09: 37 New
              +2
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              And there is nothing surprising, Crump assured that Commander Baer had replaced 1500 pipes and did not complain about it.


              In this matter, the example of the German cruisers Freya and Gazelle is indicative. When tested on them, the design capacity of the mechanisms was not reached. Representatives of the plant were called (the Germans assembled the boilers themselves). When disassembling the boilers, it turned out that the tubes were installed without the use of special tools, respectively damaged, the installation locations of the tubes were mixed up (different tubes were intended for each part of the boiler). After the assembly of the boilers, led by representatives of the plant using special tools, the tests passed normally at all planned operating modes. The cruiser Freya under artificial traction instead of the design 10000 l. with. developed 10400 liters. with.
              For the maintenance of Nikloss boilers, well-trained highly qualified specialists were required.
    2. antivirus
      antivirus 26 December 2017 18: 44 New
      0
      it is strange that now they are designing, building the same way.
      do not keep up with the time? and Wishlist customer?
  2. CentDo
    CentDo 26 December 2017 16: 47 New
    +3
    Andrey, thanks.
    The seed came out beautiful, I hope you will soon appreciate the continuation.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      26 December 2017 17: 44 New
      +1
      Quote: CentDo
      Andrey, thanks.

      And thank you for your kind words!
      Quote: CentDo
      I hope you will soon enjoy the continuation.

      This week I’ll definitely post it, all other things being equal, it would hit the main one on Monday-Tuesday, but there is a new year ...
  3. Trapperxnumx
    Trapperxnumx 26 December 2017 17: 07 New
    +2
    From the first words, he guessed the author and was glad of a new interesting series of articles.
    Thank! I will wait to continue.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      26 December 2017 17: 45 New
      +2
      I will try not to disappoint!
  4. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 26 December 2017 17: 15 New
    +3
    Excellent! good I look forward to continuing.
    One remark: judging by the booking area of ​​the Svetlan board, their side armor is, to the campaign, the next recurrence of the RVE and Tsushima with a “high-explosive fear”. EMNIP, during the design of the Svetlan, for the sake of including the armored belt in the ship’s design, they even went down to speed.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      26 December 2017 17: 46 New
      +3
      Quote: Alexey RA
      EMNIP, during the design of Svetlan, for the sake of including the armored belt in the ship’s design, they even went down to speed

      And let's figure it out! :))))
    2. arturpraetor
      arturpraetor 26 December 2017 18: 48 New
      +3
      The light cruisers of that time almost always had an impressive side area in other countries, although they did not have the Tsushima syndrome. At the same "Danai", for example

      Well, for light cruisers, when working with similar ships and destroyers, protection is precisely what is needed against light and medium-high land mines, for such is the weapon of the main opponents. Another thing is that the Svetlana’s armor protection was much more developed, with large thicknesses. But the area of ​​the reserved side was hardly much larger.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 26 December 2017 21: 24 New
        +1
        Quote: arturpraetor
        The light cruisers of that time almost always had an impressive side area in other countries, although they did not have the Tsushima syndrome. At the same "Danai", for example

        The designers of Danae already had the experience of WWI. Because they were laid after Jutland. So they can’t be considered a contemporary of Svetlan - between them is a year of peace and two whole years of war.
        Contemporaries of the “Lights” can be considered “Towns” - “Chatham” or “Birmingham”. Moreover, the first series of “Towns” were armored.
        1. arturpraetor
          arturpraetor 26 December 2017 22: 13 New
          +4
          But only if we look at earlier British - for example, C-class (1914 bookmark year), then we also see a significant area of ​​on-board armor.

          But among the British it’s the norm, and like in the Russians it’s a relapse of the RJV and Tsushima with a “high-explosive fear” laughing Maybe not "Tsushima syndrome", but quite robust calculations based on their own and others' experience? Yes, the Germans had even less armor protection than the British, the Austrians even less, and no one had an internal armored bulkhead (as far as I remember, Svetlana), but what about the Tsushima syndrome and fearful Russian sailors to blame everything? Maybe they rather came up with the mind? Especially since it was the Svetlans that were to be hit most often - if you didn’t say anything, the ammunition often encountered by the guns of destroyers and enemy cruisers.
    3. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 26 December 2017 18: 57 New
      +2
      Quote: Alexey RA
      judging by the booking area of ​​the Svetlan board, their side armor is, in the course of the campaign, the next relapse of the nuclear weapons and Tsushima with a "high-explosive fear".

      Good evening hi
      No, Alex ... what here, probably, the realization came that non-sick armor on the waterline can bring much greater dividends than the absence thereof. Even a hassle with a simple destroyer under favorable conditions can lead to sadness for a light cruiser without belt armor. This is rather a general tendency towards PMV. When playing with a balance of characteristics, you can find weight and a place for armor. What the Germans and the British have already begun to do. So the point here is most likely not only in the post-Tsushima syndrome ... smile
  5. 27091965
    27091965 26 December 2017 17: 20 New
    +3
    A. Chernyshev on page 15 reports that in accordance with the outline design, the normal fuel supply was to be 500 tons, including 130 tons of coal and 370 tons of oil. The total fuel supply was 1 tons (probably the same 167 tons of coal and 130 tons of oil). In this case, the total fuel supply differed from normal by 1 tons and we would expect a total displacement of 037 - 667 tons (with a normal displacement of 7 - 467 tons).


    Good evening. It seems to me that the answer to this question is in the “Baltic Fleet Light Cruiser Specification”. It provided for 30 hour, continuous, sea trials with 14 nodal strokes using only coal-fired boilers. The coal consumption should have been 178,2 tons. Given the coal reserves indicated by A. Cheryshev, such sea trials cannot be carried out. When completed in Soviet times, coal reserves were reduced, and A. Cheryshev most likely indicated this figure.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      26 December 2017 17: 51 New
      +3
      Quote: 27091965i
      Good evening.

      Hello to you, too! hi
      Quote: 27091965i
      The coal consumption should have been 178,2 tons. Given the coal reserves indicated by A. Cheryshev, such sea trials cannot be carried out.

      This, of course, is true, but the fact is that this does not necessarily indicate that the cruiser was supposed to have a coal reserve of more than 130 tons. This is just a check of boilers (and all of them).
      And at completion ... In the end, the coal pits were liquidated at some point, and the oil pit was reduced to 950 tons (apparently to compensate for the increased displacement), but was this done in 1928 or later, that’s the question .. .
      1. 27091965
        27091965 26 December 2017 18: 32 New
        +2
        This, of course, is true, but the fact is that this does not necessarily indicate that the cruiser was supposed to have a coal reserve of more than 130 tons. This is just a check of boilers (and all of them).


        "Since the ship must use up a certain amount of fuel before the start of testing, it will be prepared separately from the fuel entering the normal load and received on the ship under the supervision of the selection committee; fuel entering the normal load will be consumed only during testing. Fuel, the remaining inventory taken for the transition will not be taken into account. "

        It turns out that the cruiser should have had a normal supply of coal, for movement within 30 hours, with a 14 nodal move. I think that we planned with a margin, so the capacity of coal pits could be 190-200 tons.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          27 December 2017 22: 21 New
          +2
          Quote: 27091965i
          It turns out that the cruiser should have had a normal supply of coal, for movement within 30 hours, with a 14 nodal move.

          I am ready to offer you a different interpretation. As you undoubtedly know, the paragraph quoted by you is part of paragraph 3 of the General Test Conditions, and it begins as follows:
          "All tests will begin at a recess corresponding to normal displacement. This recess will in any case not be less than what is shown in the drawings."

          In the context of this beginning, it was most likely a matter of all fuel, and not just coal, and only for the purpose that the ship, leaving the port with a normal fuel supply, would not come to a measured mile lightened.
          Again, item 5
          "Coal will be prepared for each test in the required quantity in bags of the same weight"

          There are no ligaments with a normal supply. This alone does not prove anything, but ... and does not suggest that the information about 130 tons of pits is incorrect
          Best regards hi
          1. 27091965
            27091965 27 December 2017 22: 53 New
            +1
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            There are no ligaments with a normal supply. This alone does not prove anything, but ... and does not suggest that the information about 130 tons of pits is incorrect


            I think the answer is in these documents.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              27 December 2017 23: 58 New
              +3
              Quote: 27091965i
              I think the answer is in these documents.

              It could be! And what is there, on these 34 sheets? :)))
              1. 27091965
                27091965 28 December 2017 09: 22 New
                +2
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                It could be! And what is there on these 34 sheets ?:


                This is only after the New Year. Holidays. hi
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  28 December 2017 09: 30 New
                  +2
                  Understandably :)))) And I’m somehow used to it, that you, as if with a magic wand, are raz! And the document on the screen. You spoiled me, in general laughing hi
                  1. 27091965
                    27091965 28 December 2017 11: 48 New
                    0
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    And I somehow got used to you, as if with a magic wand - once! And the document on the screen


                    Good afternoon. I did not deal with this type of cruisers, as they say before the "rivet", many books have been published on them both in Soviet and in the present. In my opinion, the Red Caucasus is the most interesting in terms of consideration. An attempt to improve combat qualities to an acceptable level in relation to cruisers under construction abroad, but I repeat this is my opinion.
  6. belost79
    belost79 26 December 2017 17: 24 New
    +3
    Oh Andrey! For myself, I decided to read your articles only in their entirety, when all the parts come out, but something does not work out !! Thanks for the work
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      26 December 2017 17: 52 New
      +2
      And thank you very much for your interest in my articles!
  7. Taoist
    Taoist 26 December 2017 17: 27 New
    +3
    "Latecomers to summer" (c) - this is how the RIF was unlucky in this regard, forever building ships that were late in meaning ...
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      26 December 2017 17: 53 New
      +3
      Quote: Taoist
      that’s how the RIF was unlucky in this regard, it always built ships that were late in meaning ...

      With light cruisers - in general. The pair ordered by the Germans replenished the Kaiserlichmarin, ours did not enter service ... And Svetlana in the Baltic would be great
      1. Trapperxnumx
        Trapperxnumx 26 December 2017 17: 58 New
        +1
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And Svetlana in the Baltic would be great

        We can say the ending has already been announced)))) "the waiter killed everyone"
        eh, there will be no intrigue now)))) laughing
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          26 December 2017 18: 06 New
          +3
          Quote: Trapper7
          eh, there will be no intrigue now)

          Do you seriously think so? :)))))))
          1. Trapperxnumx
            Trapperxnumx 27 December 2017 09: 28 New
            0
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Quote: Trapper7
            eh, there will be no intrigue now)

            Do you seriously think so? :)))))))

            Vooot ... again the intrigue appeared))))
      2. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 26 December 2017 19: 23 New
        +1
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The pair ordered by the Germans replenished the Kaiserlichmarin,

        But only they were without side armor request
        Like with "Svetlana one year bookmark .... what
        Enlighten about this strange fact repeat
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          26 December 2017 20: 27 New
          +3
          Quote: Rurikovich
          Enlighten about this strange fact

          Dear colleague, why educate here? It's simple - the RIF did not see these two cruisers at all as cruisers, but as training ships for training turbine drivers on the one hand, and high-speed minzags on the other. In general, a very specific couple, although formally still a cruiser ...
          1. Rurikovich
            Rurikovich 26 December 2017 21: 21 New
            +1
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            In general, a very specific couple, although formally still a cruiser ...

            Everything, the question is removed hi
      3. Nehist
        Nehist 28 December 2017 02: 22 New
        +1
        Epmt so for its time the strongest ships in its class! Tsvetkov described in detail everything related to these cruisers
  8. Trapperxnumx
    Trapperxnumx 26 December 2017 17: 56 New
    +1
    By the way, I read the article cited by the author in the text regarding the construction of the "guard cruisers", especially the historical information on the fleet.
    Honestly, no other words except "confusion" and "reeling" come to mind. We are building light cruisers with side armor, we are not building, we must, we do not need it, we need a super fleet, then we need enough and less. Horror!
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 26 December 2017 19: 19 New
      +1
      So ... the history of KRL design is quite common for our fleet: the gradual drying of Wishlist as the project is squeezed into the Procrustean bed of the Empire’s technical and financial capabilities. The last bombardment with the introduction of tower 6 "artillery on Svetlana" was killed by the increase in the cost of the Izmail at the expense of the fourth tower and the subsequent redistribution of the fleet budget in favor of the LCR.
  9. ICT
    ICT 26 December 2017 18: 48 New
    0

    By the way, the above photo is highly recommended for viewing to anyone who reproaches the commander of the Varyag, V.F. Rudnev that he did not go on a breakthrough again.


    actually they accused him of flooding in shallow water,

    and with regards to the photo article, then maybe it’s already before the flooding, since he came from the battle. fully afloat though with a roll

    1. ICT
      ICT 26 December 2017 18: 49 New
      +1
      went away like that
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      26 December 2017 19: 21 New
      +3
      Quote: TIT
      and with regards to the photo article, then maybe it’s already before the flooding, since he came from the battle. fully afloat though with a roll

      Yeah What about ... apply the gray matter as intended ?!
      At the ship in my photo a fire is clearly visible in the stern. Your photo is not there. In your opinion, did the Varyag sailors have nothing to do before the flooding lit a fire in Utah?
      The fact of the matter is that the photo I cited was taken BEFORE the one you cited, and this, it would seem, is obvious.
      It’s just that the photo you provided does not give an understanding of the roll of the ship. Rather - so, to me, as a person close enough in knowledge of the marine theme, the strong roll of the "Varyag" to the left side in your photo is obvious, but to the average amateur naval history - perhaps not
  10. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 26 December 2017 18: 50 New
    +1
    Greetings, namesake! drinks hi
    Wonderful, immediately plus for the new cycle fellow Do not let us miss you (I’m silent about the prosaic reason - I hope everything will work out yes Good luck in this regard!)
    Immediately an amendment according to Freud (because they can fly very smart and poking there will reproach you for ignorance): when mentioning German cruisers of the Wittelsbach type, you most likely meant cruisers of the Wiesbaden type of 1913 bookmarks yes
    But it rather refers to the banal carelessness and overload of material ...
    The cruisers of the Svetlana project have aroused a number of doubts for me for a long time, therefore it will be interesting to hear a fresh look and possible explanations regarding a number of characteristics yes I am especially interested in weapons and SUAO. So you have to wait for the next article what
    Conclusion: the next "bravo" from me personally soldier
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      26 December 2017 21: 14 New
      +2
      Quote: Rurikovich
      mentioning German cruisers of the Wittelsbach type you most likely meant cruisers of the Wiesbaden type

      That's a conspiracy ... And I specifically leave it for a day before spreading it out to re-read it with a fresh look, but here you go.
      Quote: Rurikovich
      I am especially interested in weapons and SUAO.

      Yes, tomorrow I’ll take it. Today I finished about Ashen and Husky as part of a frown on the future of the Russian Navy, it's time to return to the girls :))))))
    2. The comment was deleted.
  11. doktorkurgan
    doktorkurgan 26 December 2017 18: 53 New
    +2
    The beginning is enthralling ....
  12. kvs207
    kvs207 26 December 2017 20: 36 New
    +2
    Quote: doktorkurgan
    The beginning is enticing

    More than.
    In fact, my favorite ships of the Russian fleet. Tsvetkov’s book “The Guards cruiser“ Red Caucasus ”was read to the holes, I had to buy a second one.
    1. doktorkurgan
      doktorkurgan 27 December 2017 09: 09 New
      +1
      Great book. Also read, took in his time in the library ....
  13. Potter
    Potter 26 December 2017 21: 16 New
    +2
    It will be interesting to read the analysis on the aforementioned topics. Tsvetkov’s book and I had one of the most read.
    Regarding the author’s phrase:
    It should be noted that the analogue of “Svetlana” in other fleets should not be considered any light cruisers, but only those that carried an armored belt.

    -only carrying cruiser side armor, armed with medium-caliber artillery, are considered light. The rest is armored cruisers, or scout cruisers, 2 ranks in the RIF.
    In fact, Svetlana was quite a ship in the spirit of the times, worthy rivals of their peers ..... if they went into operation in 17-18 years. Commissioning of almost finished Svetlana and Adm. Nakhimov was completely justified in 27-28, the completion of the Red Caucasus was unjustified, and the GK artillery was almost not combat-ready.
  14. reg
    reg 26 December 2017 22: 14 New
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    As the experience of the Russo-Japanese War (and not only it) showed, only the armored deck with bevels does not give the ship the desired degree of protection. Of course, the armored deck is already useful at least in that it protects the cruiser’s cars and boilers from fragments and other effects of shells exploding in the hull. But it does not completely prevent the flow of water into the ship when the latter receives damage in the area of ​​the waterline. The developers of the “karapasnaya” armored deck assumed that, since its bevels would be attached to the hull below sea level, then a shell falling into the waterline or even a little lower would explode on the armor. And, although the board will be perforated, there will be no serious flooding.

    But that was a mistaken view.

    Wow. The whole world did not notice these "catastrophic consequences". And only an alert author, he remarked.
    Or come up with?
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    As practice has shown, in this case the armor from a strong blow and concussion departed from the mounts, or "handed over" the armor plate mount at the side. In any case, the armored cruisers received almost as widespread flooding as if the ship had no armor at all.

    More like what I came up with. Because he does not know the device karapas.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    As a result, the cruiser acquired such an "elegant" list that it was out of the question to continue the battle.

    That roll, which is in the photo, it is called "pah." It is treated with a light movement ... mechanisms and teams.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    By the way, the above photo is highly recommended for viewing to anyone who reproaches the commander of the Varyag, V.F. Rudnev that he did not go on a breakthrough again.

    Nothing catastrophic is visible in the photo. Moreover, it is unclear who blames Rudnev for repeated absenteeism? Rudnev has completely different claims.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Thus, the armored belt gives the light cruiser a fundamental advantage over its armored "brother", which is so significant that it makes you think about allocating the "armored" light cruisers into a separate class of ships.

    In fact, the topic with light armored cruisers was closed long before the beginning of the 20th century. Back in the days of semi-armored frigates. Who does not remember, under Tsushima participated Monomakh and Donskoy. Just representatives of that outdated concept.
    No one argues that ships with an armored belt are better protected. But it is very important to look at the ratio of protection-weight ratio. For light ships of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, an armored belt was completely unacceptable. They did not have reserves of displacement for him, it was not possible to make the belt full, and the ship was armored. Only semi-armored. That is why, at the time, carapace was developed as a replacement. Which were used not only in light ships, but because of their successful ratio the level of protection-weight, partly also in the heaviest, squadron battleships. Until they switched from coal to liquid fuel.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Russian "Svetlana" received an armored board.

    Got a lighter and more compact powerplant, and got an armored board. No wonder.
    1. Bormanxnumx
      Bormanxnumx 27 December 2017 11: 34 New
      0
      Quote: reg
      Which were used not only in light ships, but because of their successful ratio the level of protection-weight, partly also in the heaviest, squadron battleships. Until they switched from coal to liquid fuel.

      Armored decks with bevels were also of much later battleships - Reshelier, Bismarck
  15. Alex_59
    Alex_59 27 December 2017 07: 39 New
    +2
    I suggest that the author not be allowed to work - let him write. ))) And when it works, it doesn’t write. )))
    I read everything, read the comments (the last - confused).
    That's interesting.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      27 December 2017 08: 16 New
      +2
      Quote: Alex_59
      I suggest that the author not be allowed to work - let him write. )))

      Will you feed my three children? Where to send the card number? laughing
      1. Alex_59
        Alex_59 27 December 2017 09: 04 New
        +1
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Will you feed my three children?

        And you think how to make a business out of your hobby. I would not say that you can immediately refuse to work for hire - this is definitely not true, but you can gradually crawl from "work for uncle" to "work for yourself". Well, or at least have extra. income that will allow you to even live without work for some time without suffering much. I myself am in this process of crawling. True, there will also be some difficulties - you will often have to write not about the fleet, and even probably for some time not at all about the fleet.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Where to send the card number?

        In PM. With a pin code right away. ))) a joke.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          27 December 2017 12: 03 New
          +1
          Quote: Alex_59
          And you think how to make a business out of your hobby.

          I thought a lot :)))) Does not help :))))
          Quote: Alex_59
          True, there will also be some difficulties - you will often have to write not about the fleet, and even probably for some time not at all about the fleet.

          Yes, there’s no chance at all - I can’t provide my family with the income that I’m accustomed to. No, of course, you can even become a billionaire if you write "Harry Potter" laughing laughing But how to write it, if I didn’t even read it? laughing
          However, as Comrade Torquemada said, the attempt is not torture. I’ll try to send the first book to the publishing house right after the New Year’s. However, even if they print it, there will not be much success - the first world AI in the Baltic, the topic is rather narrow.
          Quote: Alex_59
          In PM. With a pin code right away. )))

          Do you think there lies something? Okay, I need to check ....
          1. Alex_59
            Alex_59 27 December 2017 13: 02 New
            0
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Yes, there’s no chance at all - I can’t provide my family with the income that I’m accustomed to.

            Well add. earnings. Copyright is possible, but yes, it’s not easy. (and what is simple in this world?) I cobbled one time. Selling texts. If for Muscovites, then nothing happened. ))) I’d shabbat now, but I don’t have time, I sleep on 4 hours.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            However, even if they print it, there will not be much success - the first world AI in the Baltic, the topic is rather narrow.

            Well, you probably have to find your reader. As an add. earnings can go. The topic is narrow, but there are pluses - any publication on the topic becomes valuable. There is another problem - Rutreker. ))) I personally, for example, all of Markovsky (this is written by people in aviation very qualitatively), I buy it in paper form, although it’s possible to swing free, but there are probably not many conscious people like me ...
            If the book is published - throw a link to the online store, maybe I'll buy it if there is money)))
  16. Amurets
    Amurets 27 December 2017 12: 42 New
    +1
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk,
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Boo ha ha! No complaints ...

    I support you completely. Here are just the first transition of Retviana:

    Now: for some reason, they don’t think that the Varyag had a lightened 4-cylinder car, about the features of which we still have to talk and talk. That on the Varyag, the steam output of the boilers was not enough for 20000 hp, initially. Kataev: "The cruiser Varyag is a legend of the Russian fleet." Now the quality of the construction of the cruiser Varyag is very revealing book by R.M. Melnikov. "The cruiser Varyag."
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      27 December 2017 13: 07 New
      +3
      Yes, do not pay attention. This figure who now writes under the nickname reg has long been infamous for a variety of resources, and he has been banned countless times here. One of his endless misconceptions is the clever and beautiful Kramp, who was worth the perfect ships, but these crap Russians ... laughing
      1. reg
        reg 27 December 2017 18: 15 New
        0
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        This figure who now writes under the nickname reg is long and notorious on a variety of resources,

        Oh really? Is this a reception? If there is nothing to say on the topic, qualification does not allow, then I’ll say something bad about the opponent.
        After that, the opinion of you as a decent person somehow does not add up. But quite the opposite.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          27 December 2017 18: 53 New
          +3
          Quote: reg
          Oh really? Is this a reception?

          Yes, this is such a technique - when you start telling amazing stories about the lack of official reports to Rudnev 100500 times, I send you to Melnikov, who brings such reports. After that, you start screaming 100500 times that Melnikov is not safe and that is where the substantive part of the discussion ends, because except for the cries of "Kramp is always right!" You are not able to bring anything to confirm your words.
    2. reg
      reg 27 December 2017 18: 12 New
      +1
      Quote: Amurets
      that there was a lightened 4-cylinder car on Varyag

      In fact, all cruisers were lighter cars. They were also called "cruising". Heavy vehicles stood on squadron battleships.
      Quote: Amurets
      for some reason they don’t think that the Varyag had a lightened 4-cylinder car, about the features of which we still have to talk and talk.

      What can I say about her? Powerful and most modern was the car. The second something similar to it, the RIF received only from the Germans, in Bogatyr. They also bought a license for such cars.
      Quote: Amurets
      That on the Varyag, the steam output of the boilers was not enough for 20000 hp, initially.

      Why are you retelling the nonsense of the illiterate in technical terms? Yes, I had to read it before. He comes from a "venerable historian" who, for some devil, undertook to write about technology. And I have long figured out that this is nonsense. And where he came from, he also understood. And you, apparently, no.
      Quote: Amurets
      the book of R.M.Melnikov is very revealing.

      Who is this? Did he somehow understand the ships and the fleet as a whole?

      As an exception, I will explain to you, beloved son of Lieutenant Schmidt, where did you come from the nonsense of Runet about the insufficient steam production of Varyag boilers. Those. supposedly there was something that cannot be, in principle, in any case.
      This duck was launched by not very technically competent popularizer Melnikov. In his opus "Cruiser" Varyag ".
      The fact is that the power of cars in the USA was measured in kW. And in Russia, in indicator forces. The contracted capacity of the Varyag machines was 20000 ind. forces. This is 14706 kW.
      The power of the Varyag machines in the tests fluctuated around this figure (in kW). But on a 12-hour run, the average power of the cars was recorded as 14158 kW. This is 19249 ind. forces. This happened due to the fact that during the test for 3,5 hours the boiler No. 30 was inactive. Nevertheless, the contractual continuous speed of 23 knots was slightly exceeded and amounted to 23,18 knots.
      Upon arrival in Russia, the Varangian was tested again. Domestic mechanics. Power machines amounted to 19810 ind. forces, and the speed was a little more than 23 knots.
      Formally, for the lack of power, Crump could try to be fined. But the main indicator, the long contract speed, was provided by his ship. What was confirmed by acceptance protocols. Therefore, the chances of success in court in Russia were minimal. But the legal costs would be significant.
      And now briefly:
      1. The steam production capacity of boilers under no circumstances can be less than the need for ship machinery and mechanisms. On the contrary, their steam production is done with a margin. How many%, I don’t remember. A look, too lazy.
      2. The steam capacity of Varyag boilers was enough with a margin. What was confirmed in particular during the 12 hour test. Varyag reached the contract speed with one partially not working boiler. The duck about the insufficient steam production of his boilers was launched by Melnikov, who apparently did not know and did not understand the difference between kW and ind. forces. And maybe consciously. You have to understand what time he wrote.
      3. With dimensions and contours of the Varangian, achieve a speed of 23 knots with a machine power of 14158 ind. forces are impossible in principle. Disabled domestic building Pallas having a slightly lower displacement and cars with a capacity of slightly more than 13000 ind. forces in the tests accelerated to a speed of just over 19 knots. And here, supposedly + only 1000 ind. forces, and speed + as much as 4 knots.
      Have you even been able to compare elementary figures? And to draw from them at least elementary conclusions? Fans of marine subjects, damn it. They are talking nonsense all over the Russian Internet, but they don’t understand what they are slandering.
      1. 27091965
        27091965 27 December 2017 20: 05 New
        +1
        Quote: reg
        The power of the Varyag machines in the tests fluctuated around this figure (in kW). But on a 12-hour run, the average power of the cars was recorded as 14158 kW. This is 19249 ind. forces. This happened due to the fact that during the test for 3,5 hours the boiler No. 30 was inactive. Nevertheless, the contractual continuous speed of 23 knots was slightly exceeded and amounted to 23,18 knots.


        Different publications indicate contradictory data on the cruiser "Varyag", I will give you published by the US Naval Institute in 1903. Pay attention in what units power is measured.

        1. reg
          reg 27 December 2017 20: 20 New
          0
          Quote: 27091965i
          I will give you published by the US Naval Institute in 1903.

          You can use this piece of paper with great benefit. For example, in the toilet. There she belongs. Like the rest 99% of "authoritative sources."
          Rereading and memorizing what is written in paragraphs. 1, 2 and 3.
          No, well, I give him specific figures and facts. And he told me some stupid little pussy in a foreign language. And this, in his opinion, “can serve as evidence” of something there.
          .
          You, if that, do not be offended. It’s not for you personally, it’s in RuNet. "Lovers of the marine theme." All sorts of "letters" that the letters know, but they cannot add words from.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            27 December 2017 20: 29 New
            +5
            Quote: reg
            You can use this piece of paper with great benefit. For example, in the toilet. There she belongs. Like the rest 99% of "authoritative sources."

            Well, here is the third stage - when the patient is convicted of a deliberate lie, or rather - that some historical facts do not fit into his "ingenious" theory, he begins to be rude to the right and left. Melnikov - a liar, the US Navy Institute - "scribble", one Passer-by is an expert on us ...
            Maybe you won’t wait for the inevitable and finally get busy?
            1. reg
              reg 27 December 2017 20: 42 New
              0
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Well, here is the third stage - when the patient is convicted of a deliberate lie, or rather - that some historical facts do not fit into his "ingenious" theory, he begins to be rude to the right and left. Melnikov - a liar, US Navy Institute - "scribble"

              Is there any doubt about this? And to you and the rest, I have proved this, more than clearly. If you do not understand anything, this is your problem.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              one Passerby is our expert ...

              Maybe I'm not going to just pass by. It may stay for a long time. It is necessary to teach someone the illiterate "lovers of the marine theme." Which 2 digits cannot bring together. Because "in smart books they are not reduced."
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Maybe you won’t wait for the inevitable and finally get busy?

              Is that a threat? Afraid of your "authority"?
              Yes, you better not argue with me. With your "depth of knowledge."
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                27 December 2017 20: 44 New
                +3
                It’s clear, then you’ll wait for the inevitable laughing
                1. reg
                  reg 27 December 2017 20: 49 New
                  0
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  It’s clear, then you’ll wait for the inevitable

                  Yes, do it. It is in your best interest. Because I will point out nonsense to you on occasion. Do not be shy.
          2. 27091965
            27091965 27 December 2017 20: 55 New
            +1
            Quote: reg
            You, if that, do not be offended. It’s not for you personally, it’s in RuNet. "Lovers of the marine theme." All sorts of "letters" that the letters know, but they cannot add words from.


            Honestly, I did not try to convince you of anything. It was written that " Different publications indicate contradictory data on the cruiser "Varyag",

            You can use this piece of paper with great benefit. For example, in the toilet


            If you think that the scan from the original is from the library of the US Senate, don’t think that I have been bragging about these editions since 1888, they are suitable for the toilet, I have nothing to tell you.
            1. reg
              reg 27 December 2017 21: 06 New
              0
              Quote: 27091965i
              Honestly, I did not try to convince you of anything.

              But how can I convince me in favor of what cannot be? It could have been a very, very long time when I did not understand anything at all in the naval affairs. But now, I do not know how this is possible.
              And once again, please take into account that the writing was not addressed specifically to you.
              Quote: 27091965i
              If you think that the scan from the original is from the library of the US Senate, don’t think that I have been bragging about these editions since 1888, they are suitable for the toilet, I have nothing to tell you.

              I assure you, the quality of the printed, that now, that 100 years ago is about the same. 99% is suitable except for the toilet. And this is an optimistic forecast. According to the pessimistic, 99,9% of the printed matter should be sent there. And in Soviet times in the USSR, 99,99%.
      2. unknown
        unknown 31 December 2017 14: 34 New
        0
        The Japanese, raising the Pallada redistributed the masses, the cruiser stopped burying its nose, and so-so, confidently, walked more than 20 knots.
    3. unknown
      unknown 31 December 2017 14: 30 New
      +1
      A similar picture with Japanese armored cruisers. They tried to stick decent reservation and powerful artillery into a small displacement. As a result, the speed "drew." Once-on acceptance tests. But in fact: the "English" confidently walked 17 knots, the "German" -16 knots, the "Frenchman" -15 knots. And the first pair of "English" was also unlucky with the armor: the harvey was of absolutely disgusting quality.
  17. Potter
    Potter 27 December 2017 20: 46 New
    +2
    Only one thing can be said about the Varangian - this is the most unsuccessful of the cruisers of the Russian-Japanese war. In all respects. Even completely obsolete Pallas were more useful to the fleet than the Varangians. It is impossible to call successful and the Hero Series. Where it was better to build asamoobrazny cruisers. But we need to stop offtopic in a conversation about Svetlana - this is a completely different topic.
    1. reg
      reg 27 December 2017 21: 25 New
      0
      Quote: Potter
      Only one thing can be said about the Varangian - this is the most unsuccessful of the cruisers of the Russian-Japanese war.

      The Varangian was a very good and, most importantly, a very necessary RIF ship. Not to the Tsarist RIF, but to the normal Russian RIF, if it existed. But it did not exist. And the royal RIF quickly brought the Varangian to the pen. He also finished off sending in Chemulpo while Diana and Pallas were hanging out in the PA. Top senility.
      Quote: Potter
      Even completely obsolete Pallas were more useful to the fleet than the Varangians.

      Pallas were completely unnecessary to RIF. Not royal, not virtual normal Russian. Russia did not have overseas colonies. But for some reason she is building a colonial cruiser Svetlana in France. And then he builds in Russia three more Svetlana, scaled to a larger size. Why tsarist Russia needed 4 NEW (usually even colonialists managed retired cruisers) colonial cruisers, a big mystery. Maybe what overseas colonies planned to grab?
      Quote: Potter
      It is impossible to call successful and the Hero Series.

      Why so? The "heroes" themselves are quite successful ships. Everything about them was good. It is not clear why Russia needed them. After all, these were the ships of the protection of the water area. Scouts, in the terminology of those years. And where did she plan to protect this area? Maybe a couple of heroes in the Far East and the World Cup would not hurt. For assortment. But not more. And if they weren’t, it’s also good.
      Quote: Potter
      Where it was better to build asamoobrazny cruisers.

      That’s what Russia didn’t need and it wasn’t built correctly, it’s the armored defenders of trade. Because Russia did not have it, maritime trade.
      Quote: Potter
      As far as I remember, the commander Oleg Dobrotvorsky owns the characteristic of his ship "naked body and hands in boxing gloves."

      Dobrotvorsky was never the commander of the Varyag.
      1. Nehist
        Nehist 28 December 2017 02: 39 New
        +3
        He meant the heroic series and not the Varangian
      2. Potter
        Potter 28 December 2017 21: 04 New
        +1
        According to Melnikov. An outstanding historian of the Russian fleet. First raised shipbuilding research to a whole new level. Author of several monographs and T2 History of domestic shipbuilding.
        And then point by point.
        1. The Varangian was a ship without artillery protection. With unsuccessful boilers and a low-quality assembly machine. It was the latter that became the basis of his troubles. Well, Nikloss's boilers have not taken root anywhere. The USA fleet, having tested them on Maine, then set up its good Babcock-Wilcox boilers.
        2. Russia built cruisers - destroyers of shipping (Great Britain). The advantage of building these cruisers was at least in the fact that England to counter the threat from them (as well as the Ruriks) built several dozen ridiculous, meaningless ships (Tiaras, for example).
        3. The warriors in terms of displacement (7400t) approached the Bayan (8200t), the only really useful ship in pre-war construction. And for the price, too.
        4. Ships for both cruising and squadron combat. Just Bayan.
        5. Well, Oleg Dobrotvorsky was a commander, about which I am writing. After the REV, it was quite realistic to consider the option of installing an armored belt on the Athletes, but they abandoned this stupidity ..
        1. reg
          reg 28 December 2017 21: 43 New
          0
          Quote: Potter
          An outstanding historian of the Russian fleet.

          What did he give out?
          Quote: Potter
          First raised shipbuilding research to a whole new level.

          Which one? Confused ind. power with kilowatts?
          If necessary, I can roll out a small trolley of its jambs to you.
          Quote: Potter
          Author of several monographs and T2 History of domestic shipbuilding.

          It doesn’t mean anything at all. Paper can stand it.
          Quote: Potter
          The Varangian was a ship without artillery defense.

          The Varangian was a trade fighter cruiser. His opponents were merchant ships. Without weapons. And also a maximum of rank 2 cruiser reconnaissance. Armed with a maximum of 120 mm guns. So the shields were useless to him.
          Learn the materiel. Although this is commonplace, but there is a place to be.
          Quote: Potter
          With unsuccessful boilers and a low-quality assembly machine.

          It is nothing more than bullshit. All sorts of "venerable popularizers." There were excellent boilers and cars. But they had to be served. And for this it was necessary to recruit qualified personnel. And where to get it, even if the chief craftsmen were periodically boots. I gave examples of Oslyaby and Victory (domestic construction). New mechanisms managed to threaten in a couple of months.
          Quote: Potter
          Well, Nikloss's boilers have not taken root anywhere.

          This does not mean that they were bad.
          Quote: Potter
          The USA fleet, having tested them on Maine, then set up its good Babcock-Wilcox boilers.

          And the Japanese put their own. And did not set the boilers Babcock-Wilcox, and so what? They are bad? Each country had its own preferences.
          Quote: Potter
          Russia built cruisers - destroyers of shipping (Great Britain)

          And what, do they exist? It is Britain? And why then such destroyer cruisers, as you call them, were based on the Far East?
          Quote: Potter
          that England to counter the threat from them (as well as the Ruriks) built several dozen ridiculous, meaningless ships (Tiaras, for example).

          She wanted to sneeze on the Russian fleet. That's right for the whole thing. And I was not even going to build something for any parries there.
          Do not exaggerate the size and weight of the pug.
          In addition, the benefits of Russia from the construction or non-construction of ships by Britain are incomprehensible.
          Quote: Potter
          The warriors on displacement (7400t) were approaching Bayan (8200t), the only really useful ship in pre-war construction. And for the price, too.

          I would not say that. But you correctly grasped the canvas, these were absolutely one purpose ships. But different designs. The first is armored. The second is armored.
          Actually, Bayan had weak cars. And from birth a curved case. Therefore, the Athlete was really better. But with the development of progress, the future was for ships such as Bayan.
          In addition, Bayan is 7700 tons, and Bogatyr is 6700 tons.
          Quote: Potter
          Ships for both cruising and squadron combat. Just Bayan.

          You can subtract this nonsense only in RuNet. In fact, for a squadron battle, there are some ships, from the 1st class EDB to the "battleships for the poor" (but not in one heap). For cruising service, completely different ships. Moreover, the "cruising service" is such an indefinite concept that all kinds of cruisers were just a bunch.
          Bayan was an armored scout. As planned, distant. In fact, neighbor. Scouts, these are ships of protection of the water area. Around the base of the fleet (squadron). Of course, scouts were not suitable for any squadron battle. As armored cruiser-defenders (asama, tokiva and others), as well as armored cruiser-raiders (Rurik, Russia, thunder) were not suitable for them.
          1. Potter
            Potter 28 December 2017 23: 02 New
            +1
            Bayan - total displacement - 8200t, Oleg - 7400t.
            Bayan speeds - up to 22,5 nodes. Quite good for 18000 bhp.
            Studying the history of fleets and shipbuilding for me began about 40 years ago. Any NO is a collection of feces, ru, u or bu.
            It is not strange, but since very ancient times, many aspects of British politics have been tied to the existence of a geopolitical adversary in the form of Russia. Pug you called England. I suppose?
            And as for the Varangian boilers - well, the boilers of Belleville, Norman, Yarrow, Schulz - everything was fine with them.
            The ideal trade fighter and scout could be Askold. The price of 1 mile of sailing on it cost the treasury 3 times less than the Varangian. He kept speed until the WWI and quite successfully participated in it. Not without flaws - a lightweight body and vibration, as a result.
            Melnikov, by the way, has balanced assessments of the benefits of building the Varyag and Retvisan. After the construction of Retvisan, the Americans abandoned their freaks to build and set about building balanced ships.
            And advice - end the lick of a fart.
            1. reg
              reg 28 December 2017 23: 49 New
              0
              Quote: Potter
              Bayan - total displacement - 8200t, Oleg - 7400t.

              Ships are usually compared by normal displacement.
              Quote: Potter
              Bayan speeds - up to 22,5 nodes. Quite good for 18000 bhp.

              Not familiar with the Bayan speeds. Apparently mythical. But specifically Bayan gave 17.4 thousand ind. forces and 20,9 knots.
              Quote: Potter
              many aspects of British politics were tied to the existence of a geopolitical adversary in the form of Russia. Pug you called England. I suppose?

              No, Russia. This was roughly the case with the balance of power between Britain and Russia. In addition, Britain has never considered Russia as a geopolitical adversary. There was nothing to consider. But often and with pleasure she used her population as cannon fodder.
              Quote: Potter
              Well, the boilers of Belleville, Norman, Yarrow, Schultz - everything was normal with them.

              With them, too, everything was NOT normal. On Victory and Oslyab stood the most dense, heavy and backward, Belleville. Requiring minimal maintenance. And they screwed up.
              Quote: Potter
              The ideal trade fighter and scout could be Askold.

              Askold was a great close scout. He could not be a trade fighter in principle. Unless comical, neighbor. How awkward Boyarin.
              In principle, the Athlete could perform the functions of a trade fighter to a limited extent. His performance characteristics, although not very suitable, but somehow could.
              Quote: Potter
              And advice - end the lick of a fart.

              I do not have your habits.
              Yes, and I do not need advice.
    2. unknown
      unknown 31 December 2017 14: 37 New
      +1
      Asam-like cruisers are no better. Speed ​​(15-17 knots) did not allow to get away from modern armadillos, and booking and artillery did not leave a chance in martial arts.
  18. Potter
    Potter 27 December 2017 20: 54 New
    +1
    As far as I remember, the commander Oleg Dobrotvorsky owns the characteristic of his ship "naked body and hands in boxing gloves."
  19. Trapperxnumx
    Trapperxnumx 28 December 2017 10: 23 New
    +3
    One short remark on Varyag at the beginning of the article resulted in a whole branch of "disputes" and off-topic discussions.

    And I suggest Mr. req not to spam in comments, but to write his article about the Varangian, in which detailed and reasoned debunk everything that is debunking.
    1. unknown
      unknown 31 December 2017 14: 48 New
      +1
      So, about Chemulpo already there were materials of Abacus, in which everything that was debunked was thoroughly and reasonably debunked.
      In historical science there is such a discipline - called historiography. For student hanger. Five to six times retake. The essence of historiography is the presentation of ALL points of view on the problem.
      For, one point of view on the problem is ALWAYS flawed.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        31 December 2017 15: 22 New
        +1
        Quote: ignoto
        So, about Chemulpo already there were materials of Abacus, in which everything that was debunked was thoroughly and reasonably debunked.

        And the answer is Tim, rolled the abacus into the asphalt
        1. volodimer
          volodimer 2 January 2018 18: 36 New
          0
          Thank you for your work, I look forward to continuing! Let us recall about armored tankers based on Svetlan. Well, comrade reg, opened for me a lot of new laughing
  20. unknown
    unknown 31 December 2017 14: 59 New
    +2
    On the issue: karapas or the belt is not so clear.
    1. Karapas defended the CMU
    2. Did not prevent the flooding of the hull
    3. Did the belt interfere? Incomplete?
    4. What about the inside?
    5. And the inner one, closed by boules?
    6. A typical American, super short and super narrow?
    7. And at longer distances, which is preferable: a thick karapas or a belt with thin armored deck?
    1. Mika_blin
      Mika_blin 3 January 2018 11: 56 New
      0
      CSIP
      The same questions arose when reading.
      With all due respect to the author.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        3 January 2018 21: 54 New
        +1
        Quote: Mika_BLIN
        The same questions arose when reading.

        So voice them. But do not wait for an answer to the stream of consciousness above - it is incomprehensible to the mind what relation to KRL has
        Quote: ignoto
        4. What about the inside?
        5. And the inner one, closed by boules?
        6. A typical American, super short and super narrow?
    2. arturpraetor
      arturpraetor 3 January 2018 13: 51 New
      +1
      On the issue: karapas or the belt is not so clear.

      Nearly. More precisely, just Karapas is not enough anyway. It's like an armored bra on virgins-warriors - something is covered securely, but not all that is needed, and the arrow of some Legolas can do things.
      A belt prevented? Incomplete?

      Yes. To an incomplete degree - getting into unprotected sections of the hull near the overhead lines still caused flooding.
      What about the inside?

      Even worse. Wherever you go near the overhead transmission line - but there will still be flooding, let the EC not suffer, and armor protection will turn out to be easier than usual.
      And the inner one, closed by boules?

      A lot of sense from the boules will be? Bulis are PTZ, from shells they ... Well, they give something, but not enough.
      A typical American, super short and super narrow?

      Like a fig leaf on the piers of Adam. A hit at the tip, the slightest roll or change in draft from the calculated one - and everything, to the belt is already somehow parallel - that it is there, that it is not ... But according to the passport the Americans have thick belt armor!
      And at longer distances, which is preferable: a thick carp or a belt with thin armor?

      At longer distances, something like Kirov's body armor is preferable - an 50mm belt, an 50-mm deck on top. There, from the actual Karapas, there’s not so much sense becoming with its bevels, it’s much more important, in principle, to prevent penetration of the armor.

      PS I think the author did not answer these questions precisely because he planned to chew them in the future. The article is the first of the cycle, after all, and not the only one smile And restrictions on the size of articles on topvar do not allow everything to be considered immediately.
  21. Antares
    Antares 31 December 2017 17: 47 New
    0
    the topic is interesting, and the comments are cool .. here it is- life-giving! yes
  22. NGK
    NGK 3 January 2018 17: 54 New
    +1
    Quote: Antares
    the topic is interesting, and the comments are cool .. here I agree that the topic is more than interesting. And the proposals to ban the "reg" colleague are extremely unfair! After all, this is still a forum where everyone is free to express their opinion. Imono-IN life-giving! yes

    I agree with you. It’s the comments of reg’s colleague that add spiciness and interest. And it seems that they, so to speak, are not taken from the ceiling. Each of us has its own sources of information. And our view of things. Also not all with it I agree, even Gritsy’s guide and textbooks on ship's boilers got useful, but nevertheless! And if he is banned, then this is not a forum where everyone is free to express their opinion, but some kind of dictate! He He didn’t insult anyone, he didn’t humiliate him on either a racial or gender basis.))))) He didn’t even call for the overthrow of power by force. Emotional, yes, but the syllable is good, easy to read. On the contrary, it’s good that there were still which distinguish the indicator power from kW. And to the moderators and other admins there will be more respect - let him speak out. He did not violate any laws. Everyone, including "reg", Happy New Year!
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      3 January 2018 22: 02 New
      +1
      Quote: NGK
      And if his - "reg" and - banned

      Be sure to banned. He could never stay within the framework of a civilized discussion, and for this he repeatedly flew from many forums, including the topvar. But it will happen later