AEK-971 - automatic, ahead of its time

The USSR in the second half of the 20th century was distinguished by a developed defense industry and a large number of successful developments in all segments, including in the field of rifle weapons. Some considered the existing line of army small arms perfect. The point was not only in the good characteristics of the adopted models, but also in the uniqueness of these complexes. Due to the wide unification, a relatively small number of rifle systems covered the basic needs of the army. For example, the world-famous Kalashnikov assault rifle covered several niches at once - from the compact automatic weapons of self-defense of combat vehicle crews (AKSA) to light machine guns (PKK).

This approach had its advantages. In the first place, it is possible to single out the economic component, as well as the rapid development of small arms by the troops, but there were also some minuses. It was possible to attribute the increasing inertia of perception of promising schemes to the main ones. Developed design school of the Soviet Union already in 1960-80-s gave out a lot of interesting weapons-new products, among which was the first plastic-framed pistol created in TsKIB in Tula long before the appearance of the Austrian Glock, and the first machine built in the bulleted layout Dad, and even bezgilzovye system. At the same time, many promising developments went hand in hand, and without getting into mass production.

Such was the fate of the AEC-971 Kovrov machine gun, which is experiencing a rebirth only at the present time. The weapon, which was invented back in the 1978 year, is only now undergoing military trials and is competing with AK-12 and AK-15 for the right to join the soldiers' equipment of the future Warrior-2. According to Dmitry Semizorov, General Director of TsNIItochmash, the military operation of AK-12 and AK-15 assault rifles produced by the Kalashnikov concern and A-545 and A-762 (both automatons further development of the AEK-971 model) produced by Degtyarev will be completed in December 2017. . According to its results, it will be decided what kind of machine will be included in the composition of the equipment "Warrior-2". There is a high probability that these will be Kalashnikov and Degtyarev automatic machines.

AEK-971 (GRAU index - 6P67) is a machine gun created in Kovrov at the Degtyarev plant in 1978 under the supervision of designer Stanislav Ivanovich Koksharov based on the Konstantinov machine gun (CA-006), which participated in the 1974 Defense Ministry competition. The AEK-971 submachine gun was designed to participate in the competition for the development of a new submachine gun, which has radically the best indicators of accuracy and accuracy of fire, announced by the USSR Ministry of Defense in 1978 in the framework of the ROC Abakan. Within the framework of this competition, Nikonov's automatic machine AN AN-94 was recognized the winner, which later received the name Abakan.

At the same time, the original version of the AEK-971 automaton differed from the modern models. Since many innovations were perceived by the military as excesses, this was the reason for the simplification of the machine. The machine was produced at the Kovrovsky Machine-Building Plant in small batches up to the 2006 year, when its production was transferred to the Kovrov Degtyarev Plant (ZiD), it was in service with a number of Russian power structures.

The AEK-971 machine gun (GRAU index 6P67) was made according to the traditional layout scheme (with the store in front) and was largely a development of the ideas embodied in the Kalashnikov machine gun: automatic recharging was used based on the gas engine, which was set in motion by the powder gases discharged through gas pipe located above the barrel, and the rotary valve. The machine was originally designed for 5,45x39 mm chuck, the version for 7,62x39 mm chuck was designated AEK-973 (GRAU index 6P68), there was also an option for the NATO 5,56X45 mm cartridge (AEK-972). Standard stores from AK-74 (indices 6Л20 and 6Л23) or from AKM were used to power the machine, depending on the caliber of the weapon.

The AEK-971 automation scheme was reworked to eliminate one of the main drawbacks of the Kalashnikov automatic rifle — the insufficient accuracy of automatic fire caused by the shaking of the weapon from moving the bolt group when reloading each cartridge during firing was not sufficient. For this purpose, a new automaton implemented a scheme with balanced automatics based on a gas engine (a similar scheme was then used in later models of the Kalashnikov automaton - AK-107 and AK-108). A special balancer was added to the AEK-971 automation unit, with its mass corresponding to the gate group. The balancer and bolt carrier were interconnected through gear racks and gear, the axis of which was strengthened in the receiver. The pistons of the frame and balancer played the role of the front and rear walls of the gas chamber. When firing under the pressure of powder gases, they simultaneously began to move in opposite directions with equal speed, while the impulses of their movement compensated each other. As a result, the shift of the automaton during firing, caused by the work of its automation, was minimal. The accuracy of shooting bursts from AEK-971 from unstable positions was significantly improved, surpassing the same indicator AK-74М in 1,5-2 times.

The body of the AEK-971 was metal, the pistol grip, the fore-end and the barrel trim were made of high-strength plastic. The flag of the fuse-translator of fire modes was displayed on both sides of the receiver (on the left - only the translator of fire modes). The implemented mechanism provided the shooter with three possible firing modes: single cartridges, continuous bursts, bursts with a cartridge cut-off on 3 (in the earlier version, the cut-off was on a cartridge 2). On the machine there were seats for mounting a bayonet, as well as grenade launchers (GP-25 "Koster", GP-30 "Obuvka" or GP-34). On the machine used a conventional sector sight, similar to what was installed on the AK-74, the aiming block was in front of the receiver cover. In the original version, the butt could be folded to the left, but then it was replaced by a permanent butt. In the later version, the butt began to fold to the right side. Also in the first model of the AEK-971, there was a muzzle brake compensator with the possibility of changing the holes (it was possible to increase and decrease when firing from stable and unstable positions, respectively), in a later version it was changed by the compensator from AK-74М.

The warranty life of the AEK-971 machine corresponded to that of AK-74 and amounted to 10 thousands of shots. The combat rate of fire at the same time was 40 rounds per minute when firing single rounds and up to 100 rounds per minute when firing bursts. The rate of fire of the machine was - 800-900 shots per minute. Experts noted that despite a little more weight compared to AK-74 AEK-971, it seemed easier because it was more ergonomic - due to a more massive forearm and comfortable pistol grip.

The AEK-971 submachine gun found its rebirth already in the 21st century, when the Russian military finally thought of a real replacement for the AK-74M. On the basis of AEK-971, two new models of automata with balanced automatic A-545 (5,45x39 mm caliber) and A-762 (7,62x39 mm caliber) were created, which were further developed by their ancestor. They differ from their predecessor, in the first place, by the refracted receiver (as opposed to the removable cover that was used on the AEK-971). This solution allows attaching Picatinny-type slats on an automatic machine, which allow you to install various variants of sights on it, the switch of fire modes is available on both sides of the machine gun.

Ergonomics A-545 has been improved. The pistol grip became more comfortable for the shooter, its slope was brought to a more natural angle. The translator of fire modes is usually installed on the right above the pistol grip. It has 4 positions: fuse, single-cartridge fire, fixed bursts of fire with a cut-off of two shots (judging by published photos, A-545 switched from shooting with a cut-off in 3 shot to shooting with a cut-off 2 shot), fire in continuous bursts. On the machine used retractable butt, its lock is located just above the pistol grip. Butt machine is not removable, but it can be almost completely removed. The shape of the plastic butt plate is such that it allows you to fire with the butt folded.

Automatic A-545 (6P67)

Machine A-545 received new sights. The sector-borrowed sector-sight with an entirely adjustable and a movable block, which was borrowed from the AK-74, was replaced with a full-dioptric sight. The rear sight was transferred to the rear of the machine, which makes it easier for the shooter to aim and increases the accuracy of firing from the weapon.

The second youth of the AEK-971 is not accidental. The A-545 and A-762 assault rifles were created to participate in the competition for a new combined-arms machine for the Russian army. It is known that in 2014, A-545 successfully showed itself during state tests as an automatic device for equipping the future soldier “Warrior”, meeting all the tactical and technical requirements of the Russian Ministry of Defense. During the tests, A-545 showed better accuracy in firing in long bursts, however, AK-12 conceded in terms of price-performance ratio. Balanced automatics provides the A-545 on the 10-15 with a percent better shooting accuracy than the Izhevsk AK-12.

According to the latest publications in the media, it can be said that both Izhevsk and Kovrov automata will most likely be put into service. Dmitry Rogozin has already spoken about this in particular in an interview with the Interfax news agency in 2017. According to him, the AK-12 can become a mass army machine gun for motorized infantry, and the A-545 will go into service with the special forces of the Armed Forces, the FSB and the National Guard. In particular, in July 2017 about the fact that the special forces of the airborne forces will receive the new automata of the Degtyarev plant, the journalists were told by Nikolai Anokhin, the head of the department of material and technical support of the airborne forces of Russia.

According to Rogozin, a cheaper machine will, relatively speaking, be soldierly. The army needs a cheap, simple and at the same time effective machine, in this regard, AK-12 has every chance. At the same time, the A-545 is a more sophisticated machine with a large number of functions, more precise. It can also be useful, but not for ordinary military units, but for special forces.

Information sources:
https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201706190827-v5t3.htm
http://oruzhie.info/avtomaty/288-aek-971
http://www.arms-expo.ru/armament/samples/1313/65462
https://defendingrussia.ru/enc/avtomaty/avtomat_a545-1540
Based on materials from open sources

Comments

[NEXUS]

It has already been announced that the A-545 and A-762 will go to special units. Another question is why for regular parts they took AK with two calibers, and not one-7,62? And the second question is why the AK-12 and AK-15, and not the AK-107, whose accuracy is much higher and there is practically no barrel toss?

[RF man]

Quote: NEXUS

why for regular parts took AK with two calibers, and not one-7,62

And somewhere, a document on adoption was published

Quote: NEXUS

AK with two calibers

?

[RF man]

Old movie on the topic

[Invoker39rus]

And why are you so radically against 5.45? Of course, our SSOs even flaunted with Akmas, but not just like that, they switched from 7.62 to 5.45, then to switch back to 7.62.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Invoker39rus

And why are you so radically against 5.45? Of course, our SSOs even flaunted with Akmas, but not just like that, they switched from 7.62 to 5.45, then to switch back to 7.62.

Initially, at 5,45 there was a cartridge with another bullet. They even came up with the term for an automatic machine - an “automatic machine that excludes injuries,” since more than 90% of hits in the body were fatal (for AKM 7,62, a little more than 30%). Then, under pressure from the Red Cross, this cartridge was removed from service. In Afghanistan, these cartridges were found until 1984.

[Tarikxnumx]

Where does the information about the other 5,45x39 bullets come from? Another bike? Why two caliber? I can understand the SSOshnikov and other special forces, They need 7,62x39 for subsonic, but what for does he need a simple infantry?

[Nulgorod]

7.62 is not only subsonic ...

[Tarikxnumx]

the question is different ... What for do you need 7,62x39 except subsonic? In all other areas of application, 5,45x39 surpasses it.

[Nulgorod]

Not all. For many, but not all. Whatever one may say, more caliber> more kinetic energy> more stopping effect and destructive action. If the low-impulse cartridge could be "cut down" for any purpose, they would not now develop cartridges of a larger caliber.

[Tarikxnumx]

the food of the 15th century, caliber +/- 20mm, kinetic energy and stopping effect are much cooler even than the mosquito. :) However, everyone is strangely trying to minimize the caliber and weight of the ammunition. The Germans out with their G11 generally planned to use a 4,7mm caliber and considered it more than sufficient for an ordinary infantryman ...

[Nulgorod]

Because of bestowal, that's all.

[Tarikxnumx]

If it would be so simple ... Indeed, in the same alliance, when switching from 7,62x39 to 5,45x39, a tuyeva hech of R&D was carried out to choose the optimal caliber. Including worked out the very 6,5mm, which is the current Hryundel. But it turned out that he did not have a noticeable increase in ballistics, the weight of the cartridge decreases slightly, and the recoil momentum remains at the level of that same 7,62.

[Nulgorod]

In those days, yes. But now there is a development of personal soldier protection systems. And so in the list of priorities, the power of the cartridge pulled ahead.

[Michael HORNET]

Those "tests" that were carried out in the late 40s when they investigated which caliber to take into service should not be taken seriously. So the caliber 7,62 was immediately approved and the “tests” set themselves the task of not finding out the truth, but fitting the result to this decision. For which the worst cartridge 6,5 was taken and, although even the results in the table were not so bad, they made a “clarification” in the text that the cartridge was not practical. Yes, because no one wanted innovations, and the technology for producing 7,62 barrels was worked out and no one expected surprises there. And as it turned out, they didn’t want innovations for nothing - surprises got out en masse when switching to 5.45 in the 70s, but then they didn’t shoot them anymore))

The article, as usual, is cheap - old photographs, the same ones that have already snapped up, common phrases betraying the complete incompetence of the author who wrote the article off from other authors and brochures

[reg]

Quote: TarIK2017

Indeed, in the same alliance, when switching from 7,62x39 to 5,45x39, a tuyeva hech of R&D was carried out to choose the optimal caliber.

Did you come up with this yourself?
At least ask how and why the 5,45x39 mm cartridge appeared.

Quote: TarIK2017

Including worked out the very 6,5mm, which is the current Hryundel.

And this too?
The topic with a caliber of 6,5 mm for the army in the world was closed before 2MB. And since then she has wandered only on the RuNet. Like a ghost.

[reg]

Quote: Yuferev Sergey

AEK-971 - automatic, ahead of its time

As always, a traditional disaster.
Clumsy obsolete weapons can do.
The ingenious "ahead of time" can also.
But the usual adequate modern, can not.
Here is how to explain it?

[would]

more caliber> more kinetic energy> more stopping effect and destructive effect

7.62 has less stopping effect and destructive effect. Because it depends not only on kinetic energy, but also on its transfer to the target. But at least Soviet 7.62 has big problems with this.

The Atlas of gunshot wounds (1986, authorship of the Ministry of Defense of the USSR) states the following



They say the Yugoslavs solved this problem 7.62 with some new bullet, but I have not seen evidence and comparisons.

[beeper]

A bullet piercing a bulletproof vest will no longer leave a “cigar-shaped” channel. IMHO

[would]

It is very difficult to say yes or no. It depends on how much the bullet deforms after piercing the bulletproof vest, how much energy it will lose, what kind of bulletproof vest we are talking about, and so on.

But what I agree with you is that this table only describes getting directly into soft tissues and is not applicable for other conditions, whether it’s getting into body armor or into a bone.

[Nulgorod]

That's it! That's it

[Grid]

They say the Yugoslavs solved this problem 7.62 with some new bullet, but I have not seen evidence and comparisons.

They solved this problem back in the 70s. Applying a thinner shell in the flute area. As a result, the bullet, after falling into the body, broke into two parts.

[Grid]

For many, but not all. Whatever one may say, more caliber> more kinetic energy> more stopping effect and destructive action.

We continue: a greater recoil momentum, greater losses from resistance, less energy already at medium distances, more flight time, a steeper trajectory = less chance of hitting the target.

[Genry]

Quote: TarIK2017

They need 7,62x39 for subsonic

Are you laughing For subsonic there are 9x39mm (SP-5, SP-6, ..) and 12,7x55 mm (SC-1Z0).
Already slipped information that the AK-12 is a model under 6,5h39mm (Grendel).

[Tarikxnumx]

Why would I laugh? They talked about the fact that SSOshniki still flaunt AKMS precisely because it is 7,62. Just because of its versatility in the field - he urged PBS, changed the store to subsonic, threw the rear sight - op, and you have a very quiet and quite ugly weapon. It got hot, there was a noise - he unfastened the PBS, changed the magazine to standard cartridges - and again you have a pretty normal machine gun. Cheap, cheerful and super reliable ... The most important thing is in harsh long-term field conditions.

[would]

op and you have a very quiet and quite ugly weapon.

AKMS is far from quiet even at the sound level. The reason is a strong and specific sound of automation.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: rait

AKMS is far from quiet even at the sound level.

The noise of the shot is quieter than with PB. If in a PB, a shot resembles a shot from a pneumatic weapon, then in AKMS only the shutter clatter is heard, and, quite quietly.

[genesis6]

In the early 80s, AK-74s began to come to us to replace the AKM. They were not used for long, 5,45 were soon handed over to the NZ and returned to the good old and killer 7,62-mm machine. And only in the mid-90s came the new 9-mm Vintoreza.

[RF man]

Quote: TarIK2017

that SSOshniki still flaunt with AKMS

Have you seen a lot of photos of SSOshnikov with AKM / AKMS? How many he saw in them or the FSB, or the Ministry of Internal Affairs or the Ministry of Justice ..

[RF man]

Quote: Bad_gr

Then, under pressure from the Red Cross, this cartridge was removed from service. In Afghanistan, these cartridges were found until 1984.

As far as the cartridges are aware, with the new bullet only in the late 80s were adopted and the Red Cross has nothing to do with it.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: RF Man

As far as the cartridges are aware, with the new bullet only in the late 80s were adopted and the Red Cross has nothing to do with it.

I worked in Afghanistan in 1983-85 (Andropov time). The fighters said that a couple of packs of these cartridges were caught in zinc, and since 1984 they have already been gone. They called precisely this reason - the "Red Cross". I don’t know how much corresponds to the truth about the “red cross”, but I dismantled the bullet from those cartridges (I cut the body with a file in half and examined the core). The description of these cartridges is not found in modern literature. But in the old, when this caliber was only taken into service - is.

[Grid]

Marking 7N6

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Grille

Marking 7N6

This is not the bullet I was talking about. In one, the bullet body is made of thin metal, the core itself is somewhere the same length, but it is cylindrical in shape (this one is slightly inflated) and has 4 longitudinal blades: one is not at all tall, high on the opposite side, and two small on the sides.

[Grid]

7N6 was the first 5,45x39 caliber cartridge adopted by the AK-74.
The following options for 5,45x39 rounds are available:
7N6, 7N6m (with heat-strengthened core), 7N10, 7N10M, 7N22, 7N24. Exist at least in prototypes 7H39 and 7H40
Apart from special ones, you could meet only 7Н6, and 7Н10.
None of them had and do not have a core with “shoulder blades”. And the core geometry you described is absolutely crazy from the point of view of ballistics. When the center of gravity shifts from the axis of the projectile, it will fly along an absolutely unpredictable trajectory.
The bullet has no body. There is a shell and it is really thin.

[prosto_rgb]

Quote: Bad_gr

Quote: Invoker39rus

And why are you so radically against 5.45? Of course, our SSOs even flaunted with Akmas, but not just like that, they switched from 7.62 to 5.45, then to switch back to 7.62.

Initially, at 5,45 there was a cartridge with another bullet. They even came up with the term for an automatic machine - an “automatic machine that excludes injuries,” since more than 90% of hits in the body were fatal (for AKM 7,62, a little more than 30%). Then, under pressure from the Red Cross, this cartridge was removed from service. In Afghanistan, these cartridges were found until 1984.

the red cross is not here
just the first generation of bullets 5,45 (like 5,56 NATO) was unstable when meeting obstacles such as a bush, a fence, a car door and all other trifle, unlike 7,62
but when meeting with the body left an indelible impression precisely because of this feature
because the bullet was finalized and cast iron was added, i.e. lead

[groks]

Maybe there was a barrel with less steepness of rifling. Amers had that. In the pool, you can adjust the precession without changing its shape. Having made a cavity at the beginning, making the bottom part heavier .... I had to change it not at the request of the spacecraft, but simply because the bullet began to precess immediately after leaving the barrel, which made it impossible to use not only silencers, but even compensators. High tendency to rebound again.

[CommanderDIVA]

Cartridges with a shifted center of gravity

[AKS-U]

Bullet with a displaced center of gravity.

[Bad_gr]

Well, yes, she is. The Americans had a normal bullet, but it flew unstable due to a very gentle cut in the barrel. At close range, a bullet, hitting an obstacle, did not tumble, but simply pierced the target. In the future, the Americans changed the cutting in the barrel to a steeper one and the bullet stopped tumbling.
Our cutting was normal, but the lead core of the bullet was not in the center, but away from the longitudinal axis of the bullet, pressed against the wall. The bullet flew Ryska nose, and if clung to something, then went in the direction of greatest resistance. Could kill ricocheting several times from the walls.
Yes, and the barrel very quickly warmed up when firing this cartridge.

[Grid]

but the bullet had a lead core not in the center, but away from the longitudinal axis of the bullet, pressed against the wall. The bullet flew Ryska nose, and if clinging to something, then went in the direction of greatest resistance. Could kill ricocheting several times from the walls.

Oh, what enchanting nonsense ...

[beeper]

In the 12th issue of Technique-Youth for 1973 there was a review article completing the thematic cycle devoted to domestic small arms, it mentioned a bullet piercing-breaking armor if it had hypersonic speed (Gerlich’s experiments were not mentioned, of course) ) and about the two-bullet cartridge, the second bullet of which was slanted to hit the target a little bit away from the first one. After reading this article, I had the thought of such a pool with a radially shifted core, as you described, dear Bad_gr!
So, I suppose, not only I thought about it, someone probably had the opportunity to test the theory in practice! I well remember the "demobilization" stories of the 70s, about "bullets with a displaced center", which, when fired at a head of cabbage in a helmet, chop this cabbage onto a salad, and there is no smoke without fire!
Best regards

[Grid]

Where and with respect to what is it shifted?
Where should he be?
Please do not repeat the old tales of illiterate journalists.

[Grid]

Initially, at 5,45 there was a cartridge with another bullet. They even came up with a term for the machine - "excluding the wound machine"

Very old bike.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Grille

Initially, at 5,45 there was a cartridge with another bullet. They even came up with a term for the machine - "excluding the wound machine"

Very old bike.

If in Soviet times, a technical magazine on the characteristics of Soviet weapons distributed bikes, then yes, the bike.

[Grid]

I ask again:
1. Where and relative to what is the c.t.
2. Where should the central heating facility be located?
Yeah. In which, interestingly, technical journal in Soviet times did you read this and in what context?
And this nonsense has already been disassembled on the bones of twenty years already. If you are too lazy to get into a student on ballistics, or the Buddha forbids, then read well at least this:
https://military.wikireading.ru/7713

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Grille

If you are too lazy to get into a student on ballistics, or the Buddha forbids, then read well at least this:

Why should I climb and read different theorists somewhere? If I tell you in the first person, I will take this bullet apart and I know how it works.
Secondly, I talked with people who did not hear anything from anyone, but fought with these cartridges.
Third, I read about this cartridge in a magazine (it seems to be a "modeller constructor") of the issue until 1976. In addition to this cartridge there was also talked about 5.56, also about cartridges with two bullets, about cartridges where steel arrows were the striking element, about a pistol firing with reactive bullets and so on and so forth.

Request - do not waste your time to prove to me that I am wrong. I trust my eyes and those people with whom I communicate more than any theoretician.

[beeper]

Thank you, dear Bad_gr, for informative comments (it’s a pity that I read some of them just now !)!
In my commentary above, I have already mentioned the magazine issue with this very interesting and inspiring article about advanced weapons thought.
This is the magazine "Technique-Youth" No. 12 for 1973.
Thanks again for the constructive details you described!

[Bad_gr]

Thanks for the link to the magazine. The article is just one of those that I read.
In a similar article, there was information on our 5,45 assault rifle with statistics and a comparison on the lethal force of a bullet. It was mentioned that at an American 5,56 at a close range the bullet did not tumble, and breaking through the target flew further. The bullet of our own machine gun retained its properties starting from a point-blank shot and further.

[Grid]

To all normal I throw off the link:
http://zhurnalko.net/=nauka-i-tehnika/tehnika-mol
odezhi / 1973-12 - num53
Read, and then look.

[Grid]

Why should I climb and read different theorists somewhere? If I tell you in the first person, I will take this bullet apart and I know how it works.

Baby, you either have sclerosis, or you're terribly lying.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Grille

Why should I climb and read different theorists somewhere? If I tell you in the first person, I will take this bullet apart and I know how it works.

Baby, you either have sclerosis, or you're terribly lying.

And you have megalomania. All that you know better than anyone who is right, who is not.
Don't you have a skull?

[Grid]

Don't you have a skull?

Nope, I’m six meters in diameter, outgrowth. :)
/ All that you know better than anyone who is right, who is not. /
I know that I know nothing. Just what you described is simply not viable. From here there are two options:
1. You are confusing something by the age of years.
2. You fell into insanity.
I have listed the modifications of the 5,45x39 cartridge to you, but you continue to insist on your bullshit. Bredyatina by the fact that it completely contradicts physics.
/ Why should I climb and read different theorists somewhere? If I tell you in the first person, I took this bullet apart and I know how it works. /
Baby, yes, disassemble you even a spaceship, the laws of physics will not change from this.
Although, it seems to me, I sorted out various and interesting things more than you.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Grille

Although, it seems to me, I sorted out various and interesting things more than you.

To draw such conclusions without knowing anything about the opponent is not from a great mind.
Not surprised.

[Nulgorod]

Why go over? To increase armor penetration and armored action, of course.

[RF man]

Quote: Nulgorod

To increase armor penetration

So the problem of armor penetration was solved by other bullets. But why make you drag the BC 1,5 times harder? For the sake of "armless action"?

[Nulgorod]

And this is a matter of combat mission and the means to achieve it. If you need to create a fire barrier, then the power of each bullet is not important: the quantity is important. If you need a quick and guaranteed hit of the target, then I would prefer to make one shot with a heavy bullet than spend two smaller ones.

[Tarikxnumx]

For a single and guaranteed shot there is an SVD and 7,62x54R.

[Nulgorod]

But only at a long distance, preferably from cover ... imperceptibly))

[RF man]

Quote: Nulgorod

If you need to create a fire barrier,

What troops did you serve in? Well, let's say the department defends 100 m - WHAT is the "fire zslon" and HOW do you plan to create if at least 10 m of the front fall on one trunk?

[Nulgorod]

Fire cover, no? those. to press the enemy to the ground in long bursts, to make cover while a comrade changes position or leaned out to throw a grenade ... Hmm ... Really? Is this no longer practiced? What about the urban battle?

[RF man]

In reality, to meet, perhaps, 1% of situations in which a long and heap turn is useful. Need group intact, preferably within 100 m.

Quote: Nulgorod

to push the enemy to the ground in long bursts, to make cover,

Yes, the enemy, and without "heap bursts," to be tempted by the desire is NOT on fire. He moves with dashes, rarely in full growth, from cover to cover, and he can still cover him with fire and heap long lines will not play a special role.

Quote: Nulgorod

What about the urban battle?

Well, and what is the dependence of success in urban combat on the accuracy of bullets in line?

[Michael HORNET]

So the next generation of small-caliber machine-gun bullets that in the west that we have just greatly reduced this very shifted severity, completely removing these effects of a tumbling bullet in the body. Bullets no longer tumble (!) And their slaughter rate fell sharply, becoming LESS than that of 7,62x39. This, of course, was not done out of philanthropy, but from the fact that it was necessary to sharply increase armor penetration, since the potential enemy was equipped with body armor and new helmets, which were not so easy to break through. Plus, there was a realization after the euphoria of small caliber that the barriers to the theater of events did not go away and through them the pool also needs to be worked, and this is very bad for small-caliber people to this day. As a result, the question arose about the caliber again, and this "most universal reference gauge - rightly - 6,5 Grendel, which is not at all equal to the" that "cartridge 6,5 that was tested in the 40s. There, by the way, they also rolled 5,6 mm, because there was an indication from above that the caliber should be 7,62))) Well, we already learned to customize the results for a predetermined answer)

[RF man]

Quote: Michael HORNET

Bullets no longer tumbling around like that (!)

Yes, almost all bullets tumble - more or less.
There are bullets combining armor-piercing and expansive effect.

Quote: Michael HORNET

the bullet needs to work, and with this the small-caliber ones are very bad to this day

Can you cite many examples that, having received 5,45 / 5,56 in the body, a fighter could have been fighting for a long time?
Although such examples exist, both for these calibers and for 7,62

[aws4]

maybe because they did not have the opportunity to compare ???? but I didn’t just use both submachine guns and shot on the spot on the same day ... the conclusion is obvious .. 545 1) the return is less than 2) accuracy and accuracy are better in a single fire 3) shooting with bursts just doesn’t even compare 545 for a lot surpasses 762 ... and for me it’s possible to use automatic fire on Akm no more than 50 meters .. in fact it’s a carbine with the ability to fire automatically ... sorry if I'm wrong, but this is my opinion and my experience

[Nulgorod]

I can make a lot of mistakes too, but I’ll notice:
7.62 of the Soviet model in itself does not differ in accuracy (like AKM), this was not the main thing. To this day it is used more often in machine guns, and there are completely different requirements for ballistics (scattering during shooting is only welcome). Recoil - yes, but the balancer in the new machines just solves this problem. And then: the low-pulse cartridge was developed later and was repeatedly modernized, and 7.62 has not changed much since then. In my opinion, they just did not do much.

[humungous]

Yes, Kalashnikov himself spit on caliber 5.45, said that 7.62 was not underestimated even with a certain modernization (scientific achievements were already), which is much better than a low-pulse cartridge. So time fully justified his words. Already, the Americans realized this, enlarging the caliber.

[Droid]

Quote: Humungus

Yes, Kalashnikov himself spat on caliber 5.45,

Kalashnikov wrote that 5,45 increases efficiency by 1,5 times.

Quote: Humungus

He said that 7.62 was not underestimated even with a certain modernization (scientific achievements were already), which is much better than a low-pulse cartridge.

There is nothing to underestimate there. No modernization will allow 7,62x39 to surpass 5,45 in efficiency.

Quote: Humungus

So time fully justified his words.

Fully refuted.

Quote: Humungus

Already, the Americans realized this, enlarging the caliber.

They were at 5,56 and remain.

[Nulgorod]

Quote: Droid

Kalashnikov wrote that 5,45 increases efficiency by 1,5 times.

Due to the increase in accuracy of fire due to lower recoil (probably )

Quote: Droid

There is nothing to underestimate there. No modernization will allow 7,62x39 to surpass 5,45 in efficiency.

And what is efficiency in your understanding?

Quote: Droid

They were at 5,56 and remain.

But what, the LSAT program, launched already in 2004, did not give any results?

[Droid]

Quote: Nulgorod

Due to the increase in accuracy of fire due to lower recoil (probably )

And also due to ballistics.

Quote: Nulgorod

And what is efficiency in your understanding?

Not mine, but generally accepted. Efficiency is determined primarily by two criteria:
1. The probability of hitting the target in one queue.
2. The average number of targets hit per firing (unit of time).

Quote: Nulgorod

But what, the LSAT program, launched already in 2004, did not give any results?

There are undoubtedly some results, but apparently not what I wanted.

[Nulgorod]

Perhaps because in 107 the same balanced automation as in AEK :)

[Oqtagooi]

Totally different. In AEK-971, the circuit with a long piston stroke, and in Kalash inertial circuit.

[Nulgorod]

I did not know such subtleties. But the fact is that in AK-12 there is no such system at all. The reason why they chose it, I believe, is in the maximum simplicity and cheapness.

[Nulgorod]

Although, there is no need to believe here. That is what the text says.

[Droid]

Quote: OQtagooi

and in Kalash inertial circuit.

What are you talking about?

[tracer]

The reasons for the mass, first of all, is the weight of the portable ammunition. And the more rounds the better. I always took more cartridges and stuffed them into my pockets. The sidekick was cut and begged already where the ammunition load was not possible to replenish.

[Operator]

AEK-971 - a defect in the design work, the gear train of the balancer wedges with the lightest pollution and reduces the resource of the machine by a multiple.

[would]

Are you based on personal experience? It just doesn’t fit somehow “the gear train of the balancer wedges under the lightest pollution” and the fact that the AEK successfully passed absolutely identical tests with AK, including reliability.

[Operator]

How do you know that AEK "successfully passed the test" - from Rogozin or Borisov?

And most importantly - what were the TTT for AEK in these tests (such as one delay for 30 shots and a resource of 5 thousand shots)?

As you know from the course "Theory of Machines and Mechanisms" the gear transmission is very sensitive to contamination, and its teeth are painted from shock loads.

[would]

Based on the message, as I understand it, you personally did not have a case with this weapon, and what you wrote does not stem from any objective observations or sources. I decided so because you completely ignored my direct question and "went to other wilds."

[Operator]

Based on your messages, I understand that a square wheel also needs your personal experience to understand its transport suitability

[Michael HORNET]

So there is not a single sensible article about this AEK, and this article is no exception. The author of the assault rifle did not see him live and did not even hold in his hands. Its internal structure for a wide range is still unknown. But it is known that the machine did not pass any earlier tests and there is no enthusiasm for the current ones - and it should be the same with the gear
I have not seen this AEK either. But he shot and had little experience with Izhevsk miracle Saiga 107, also with balanced automation. So they can’t bring it to a commercial sample for several years and in such a way weapons will never be put into service) I think with AEK everything is the same

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Michael HORNET

But it is known that the machine did not pass any earlier tests.

Where does this information come from? In the first competitive tests for the “Warrior”, he completely outperformed Kalashnikov. Then they came up with some additional tests in which Kalash appeared to be on equal terms. And off we go ... Again the same song: "Kalashnikov assault rifle - our everything ..."

[RF man]

Quote: Operator

How do you know that AEK "successfully passed the test"

So there is no evidence that did not pass. Kovrov assault rifles have been testing for 25 years (in various versions), field tests have passed and if there were critical claims for reliability in comparison with AK, then to this day they would not have been tested ..
Although they are unlikely to go to a wide series - if at all

[Anyone]

As you know from the course "Theory of Machines and Mechanisms" the gear transmission is very sensitive to pollution ...

That’s what it’s written in TMM: “is a gear very (!) Sensitive to pollution”? )))

[Operator]

Smoke on the section "Friction in kinematic pairs."

[Anyone]

I repeat my question once again: in TMM it is written that "the gear transmission is very (!) Sensitive to pollution." The question is simple.
PS You already once, remember, tried in another topic with the same aplomb as now, to tell tales of the Vienna forest about how the anti-submarine IL-38 detects a single Hornet at a distance of 300 versts)) Tell us now about how unreliable the principle of gears)) The audience is waiting))

[Operator]

What awaits the “audience” in your face - the disclosure of a way to ensure the performance of high-speed gears in the form of plentiful grease without an admixture of abrasive (sand)?

What is wrong with the discovery of Hornet with an EPR of 10 square meters?

[Anyone]

Your passage about the unreliability of gears reminds me of a joke:
"- Armenians are better than Georgians!
- The better ?!
- Than Georgians ... "

The most reliable part is a steel blank at rest. If we connect it, say, with another gear with the same gear and give the resulting part rotation, then naturally, the reliability of this unit will significantly decrease. Here are just a super-reliable disc is not really that useful can be done. Maximum weight ... Well, you understand the idea I hope. In order to call the design of some node unreliable, it is necessary to compare the characteristics with a similar node in functionality, cost and reliability. You stated categorically: "the gear joints are unreliable." Excuse me, but it's just ridiculous ...
Now, regarding the ability of the IL-38 to detect a single aerial target of size F / A-18 for 300 km. With a high degree of probability (this is a euphemism for the expression "under any circumstances", gee), such an IL-38 target will not detect. This is an anti-submarine aircraft, not an AWACS aircraft. I do not think that the IL-38 air target detection range is a super-duper secret. So, Google to help you))

[Operator]

You are not in the topic - domestic and foreign competitors of AEK simply do not have such a node as a gear from a word at all, so there is nothing to compare with.
Handguns are not a clockwork; weapons have different reliability / functionality criteria.

Think at your leisure - are all AEK competitors (except one) so stupid that they could not use gears in 39 years?
Moreover, this one (Izhmash) did not submit his submachine gun with a balancer to the Warrior contest, although what kind of lewd would it be: AK-12 for the army, AK-107 for special forces, maximum unification, etc. etc.

[Anyone]

Eccentric You are a man, by golly ... Here you write:

AEK’s domestic and foreign competitors simply don’t have such a node as a gear from a word at all ...

In the framework of reliability assessment, the principle of node operation is not subject to comparison, but the functioning itself. Do you understand the difference? Petya has a car with a manual gearbox, Masha has a robot, and Dasha pumped into an automatic machine. You can argue as much as you want about the advantages / disadvantages in the principles of operation of the gearbox, but their reliability can only be compared as a result of evaluating the performance of these products.
PS Operator, look at things more broadly. Methodologically pull. And you will have engineering happiness))

[Operator]

You have porridge in your head - you say “principle of functioning”, but you mean a useful property (in the case of AEK, the accuracy of automatic firing from uncomfortable positions by average trained arrows is more accurate).

At the same time, you do not understand that in any case it is necessary to evaluate not a separate unit (balanced automation), but the entire unit (handguns) as a whole.
What is the use of a jet engine in a passenger car (which is highly responsive and does not need a gearbox) if it eats an order of magnitude more fuel than an internal combustion engine?

Also, balanced automation, which, in terms of its set of properties (sensitivity to dust, pollution and shock loads) in the field, only the first 1000 rounds normally works, after which it only harms due to the growing clatter.

In addition, the criterion for adopting a new machine in the Soviet-Russian competition "Abakan" was not just an increase in the aforementioned accuracy, a double increase in relation to the AK-74 of the so-called effectiveness - the number of targets hit by arrows in motion. Only in this case was the mass transition of the army to new small arms economically justified.

None of the machines participating in that competition could demonstrate a two-fold increase in efficiency, while AEK was 94% behind this AN-40 by this indicator.
Recognizing the AN-94 as the winner, the competition committee noted the need for a future promising model to increase by about a quarter the base indicator - accuracy of fire, which directly affects efficiency.

Balanced automation lags behind this level by about half and it can never reach it.
A comprehensive solution is required - a half-free shutter, firing at the shutter of the shutter, balanced automation (which is not observed with AEK).

[AlexSam]

and why, by the way, the AK-107 and AK-108 did not enter service? Is their serial production at IzhMash more expensive than the serial production of AEK on Degtyarev? and it’s directly interesting ... mattress iksperdy squeaked from these two models ...

[Michael HORNET]

It will be too difficult for a soldier, and hard. And unreliable - in the end the fate of the AN-94 will repeat, the death of the designer did not allow to bring the weapon to mind, and then instead of the designers came "effective managers"

[RF man]

Colonel Mikhail Osyko, head of the department for ensuring the state defense order of the IWT of general purpose forces and means of interspecific support of the department of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation for ensuring the state defense order
“As a result, both machines, with improvements and sufficiently lengthy tests, passed state tests and complied with the requirements of TTZ. But the Ministry of Defense will consider this issue both in terms of their technical characteristics and price indicators, ”RIA Novosti quoted Osyko as saying.
“We are now working with them (manufacturers. - RT) to optimize this price, we are working in terms of evaluating their production, series. Which of the enterprises will approach this problem more purposefully and in a complex, and will probably receive orders from the Ministry of Defense. But at the same time, despite the existing availability in the warehouses of the assault rifles that we had previously purchased, they will probably be equipped with units, primarily for special purposes, performing certain tasks, and some units of the airborne forces, ”said Osyko.

[humungous]

Here, as I understand it, such a very important criterion as mass release was not voiced. Compare the IzhMash concern and the Dektyarev plant by the possible number of trunks produced per year, without loss of quality ... the Dyagerterevs will only pull on the MTR, they simply can’t arm each soldier physically.
IzhMash, with more mass production, will produce a product, by definition, cheaper. And if even the performance characteristics are 10% worse, it doesn’t matter. It’s normal for an ordinary motorized rifle, no one will demand anything beyond him from him.
The main thing, as they say: "In order not to pro-ball."

[RF man]

Quote: Humungus

such a very important criterion as mass release was not voiced. Compare the IzhMash concern and the Dektyarev plant by the possible number of trunks produced per year, without loss of quality ... the Dyagerterevs will only pull on the MTR

Representatives of the plant spoke on this topic. In fact, at the given moment, they generally have no capacity for any kind of "mass production" of AEK.
The cost of copies submitted for testing on the "Warrior" they estimated at 50 thousand rubles.

[humungous]

It becomes clear that all this butch on the account of the AEK, they want to get a huge loot from the state budget. Build a new factory. Multibillion investments and cuts, respectively. Is it necessary for the state? Build a new industrial giant, which will improve the shooting range by 10-15%? In the foreseeable future ... huh?
It’s better to invest in high technology than to make the second giant in the shooting range in the country, one already exists.
But the first, the second (very justified) do not want to move there, they do not want to change the proven technology.

So here or choose a supplier.
Or take tough measures.
By order of all the necessary specialists to transfer to Izhevsk, even if he built the workshop from the very beginning to integrate into Izhmash.
But it will never work out already.
The time is not right ...

Although, there would be a will, people are materially interested.
Everything can be done.
Who would have taken ..
Not the 42nd, no one will be able to transport plants and produce equipment in 3 months, not a single "effective manager".

[John22]

The AEK-971 mechanism does not have a gear, there is only one gear interacting with two perforated trims. Those. gear not with flat teeth, but round over the section of the tooth.

[Bad_gr]

.

Quote: Operator

As you know from the course "Theory of Machines and Mechanisms" the gear transmission is very sensitive to contamination, and its teeth are painted from shock loads.

Have you seen that six-gear drive?
Two slats with holes and between them a gear (teeth enters the holes), more like a camomile. To wedge it, you need to stick at least a nail there

[Operator]

In order for the shutter frame and the balancer to move synchronously, the holes with the slats are made very accurately, so a small amount of sand can jam this "camomile" at the time.

Moreover, the operation of the gear transmission in an abrasive medium (in other words, in dust) quickly wears out this mechanism (even without jamming it), after which a backlash appears and synchronization disappears in the movement of the shutter frame and balancer (they do not come to extreme points at the same time) - in other words, there is a split (a multidirectional impulse diagram) larger than in the reloading mechanism without a balancer.

Even if operating in a sterile environment, the teeth of the gears will crumble due to shock loads that occur during firing, after which there will be backlash and cracking.
The gear operating conditions in firearms cannot be compared with the operation of a car gearbox, where there is abundant lubrication, there is no abrasive, there is friction / hydraulic clutch and gear shift synchronizers.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Operator

gear teeth will crumble due to shock loads arising from firing,

Where are the shock loads from? After the shot, the scanty part of the powder gases is taken from the bore, enters the chamber, where it simultaneously begins to act on two pistons. Pistons scatter in different directions. One of them is directly connected to the valve and directly presses on it, the second piston, through the rack and pinion, the same is involved in this process. Even with heavy wear, they will scatter at the same time.

[Operator]

The speed of the frame with the AK-74 shutter is 4,85 m / s, the weight is 0,5 kg, the speed and weight of the balancer are exactly the same. The exposure time of the powder gases to the frame and balancer is ~ 0,001 seconds. It turns out a big hit on the gear.

The meaning of balanced automation is in the exact synchronization of the movement of the frame and the balancer, the play in the gear transmission violates this synchronization. Plus, the resulting difference in the time of arrival at the extreme points of the frame and the balancer generates an additional blow to the gear teeth.

[prodi]

there is no shock - the spring is relaxed, there is not even a harder breakaway, because the weight of the moving parts and the stiffness of the springs have increased. There is only increased wear in friction pairs
some imbalance, due to backlash, is critical neither for accuracy nor for reliability against wear (but reliability from pollution will increase)

[Operator]

What does the return spring have to do with it? This is about the initial impact of the powder gases into the piston of the reloading mechanism, as well as about the non-synchronous impacts of the bolt frame and the balancer in the extreme positions after the occurrence of backlash in the gear transmission.

[prodi]

Powder gases let them press as best they can, the pressure on the “front” faces of the gear teeth and racks will smoothly increase from the minimum to the maximum design, when it is equal to the force on the reverse faces with fully compressed springs. Here, of course, there may be a mistake when the springs are already fully compressed and the pressure still presses, but I don’t think that those guys are more stupid than us.
As it wears out, “some backlash” will appear in the gear-rack pair, but it should be compensated by springs
You exaggerate the effect of non-synchronism, as you wear out, on the accuracy and additional load on the pinion-gear pair

[cannabis]

The shot lasts 0,01 seconds (one hundredth). Automation works in 0,1 second (one tenth). The teeth will first be impacted, which will decrease as the gases expand and the pistons move. That is, everything is the opposite of what you claimed. The gear can be removed and the second piston returned with a spring as well as the bolt frame. . But this is such a gimp with overheating, sediment, soot .... I will give an example of large iron ... A tank, making a stop on a steep climb, risks losing mobility due to the uncertain actions of a driver mechanic who allows the tank to roll at the same time as the first gear . All load = rolling force + torque, per gear tooth. As a result, the rattle gearbox fails. Around the broken tank with a wild roar, a tank finger swinging overhead begins to chase after the mechanic of the zampotech company. At the same time, the deputy head of the battalion scratches his turnip and wonders if he will manage to sort out the gearbox by night with a regular shot during the night. And this is in peacetime! One can easily imagine what and where the designers and commanders who have lost one or several automatic gears, even with broken teeth, when cleaning their weapons (in a wooded area with high grass cover at night) will have in mind!

[groks]

The balancing mechanism is located in such a place that the ingress of dirt there will disable any machine that is similar to an AK automation circuit. Yes, and another forehead - sand in the middle of the trunk ....
The speed of the start of the mechanism, of course, is high, but here either to trust the tests or not - the matter is already religious rather. But to ensure smooth braking of the pistons is easy - those working with industrial pneumatic cylinders have seen this simple solution.

[AlexSam]

is the balancing automation in the AK-107 and AK-108 more reliable?

[Sergey53]

This is the only machine that the sun wanted to take into service. And no other. But they didn’t give it right away, they didn’t give it later, and now they stick sticks into the wheels. And notice, the article mentions innovations that we have refused, and they all appeared in the west? Not weird?

[Droid]

Quote: Sergey53

This is the only machine that the sun wanted to take into service.

So they wanted that in the middle of the competition AEK was expelled from it as having no prospects.

[Michael HORNET]

Fact. THEN they refused the machine because of its design - they considered that there weren’t so many advantages, and the price tag and the complexity of the treatment were greater. Do not master)
The new AEK, of course, has become better - but no matter how you try IMHO, the resource of the machine without a gear will not work.
The stifled and tuned AR-15 / M16 has even less impact ... True, this is only for greenhouse conditions, it will not be possible to do this for combat

[Droid]

Quote: Michael HORNET

The stifled and tuned AR-15 / M16 has even less impact ... True, this is only for greenhouse conditions, it will not be possible to do this for combat

The return on the M16 is greater. Firstly, the recoil momentum of the 5,56 cartridge is greater than that of 5,45, and secondly, the M16 does not have a DTC.

[Michael HORNET]

Kickback on the CUSTOMIZED AR-15 MUCHLY LESS AK-74 as standard. She generally stands still, recoil zero
Keyword - Customized
But this is not a combat AR, but a sports one, which I wrote about
The power of the cartridge plays a very indirect role, since the same class AP-15 under 6,5 Grendel barnaul cartridge has a return LESS than standard AK-74

[Droid]

Quote: Michael HORNET

Kickback on the CUSTOMIZED AR-15 MUCHLY LESS AK-74 as standard. She generally stands still, recoil zero

You are talking nonsense.

Quote: Michael HORNET

Keyword - Customized

Keyword - momentum conservation law.

Quote: Michael HORNET

The power of the cartridge plays a very indirect role, since the same class AP-15 under 6,5 Grendel barnaul cartridge has a return LESS than standard AK-74

Learn physics.

[Michael HORNET]

It is ridiculous to hear this from the theorist from the couch) who, with a smart look, carries all nonsense. And go to the shooting range and shoot with a tuned AR-15 cartridge 6,5 Grendel can even increase his mind ... It turns out that the world is wider) What a shame on the site ...
In the AR, several technical solutions have been applied that reduce the recoil felt by the shooter, allowing you to make a second shot at a target with a split of 0.15 s when two bullets arrive at 40 m in a few centimeters
The AK-74, by virtue of its design, is far more palpable. Even when tuning, SO is not stabilized, but I’m in the native version, the return of AK 5.45 is the same as with a slightly adjusted RPK of 7,62

[Droid]

Quote: Michael HORNET

It's funny to hear this from the theorist from the couch)

It’s ridiculous to read how you and your aplomb carry crap like - a brick weighs less than half a brick.

Quote: Michael HORNET

In the AR, several technical solutions have been applied that reduce the recoil felt by the shooter, allowing you to make a second shot at a target with a split of 0.15 s when two bullets arrive at 40 m in a few centimeters
The AK-74, by virtue of its design, is far more palpable. Even when tuning, SO is not stabilized, but I’m in the native version, the return of AK 5.45 is the same as with a slightly adjusted RPK of 7,62

We take illustrations from two polygons. Abredinsky in the USA with M16A1 and Soviet with A-3 (AK74) and look ...

[aws4]

(In the AR, several technical solutions have been applied that reduce the recoil felt by the shooter) but can I talk about this in more detail.?))))))))) ...

[Michael HORNET]

What for? You already know everything) without even blinking, give links to the M16A1, which was removed from service in the last century
Stay in happy ignorance
And take a closer look FROM WHAT those people who have the opportunity to CHOOSE a carbine for their money, and who need to shoot as quickly and accurately as possible, shoot.
For specially gifted people TWO TIMES I mentioned the term "tuned AR". It is very different from the standard M16A1 60s-70s
But the topic is not about the AR-15 against the AK-74. The AR-15 currently reigns supreme in the subject of accurate and fast shooting, and this is ideologically not right) it needs to be thrown off from there, but with competent and reliable technical solutions
The topic is either needed or not needed by AEK, in which there are definitely some “relatively new” solutions
For specials, why not try in small batches
If the plant were sane, it would launch an AEK batch for the civilian market so that everyone would have the opportunity to evaluate and form an opinion on the complexity and effectiveness

[aws4]

I did not give any links ...

[Michael HORNET]

So the links are different about the links) a lot has been done in the M16 / AR-15 for comfortable and accurate shooting, but not all of this came into service :)
Nevertheless, the design itself allows you to build with very little perceptible impact, if with 223 rounds the barrel leaves the target in the most minimal way, MUCH in this parameter different from AK-74. But this does not apply to the "military" carbine M4, it is about specially prepared weapons

[aws4]

so it was necessary to start from this ... we are talking about the fact that the troops

[serge siberian]

I’m not used to judging things without touching them. But from experience, I can say “experience is the son of difficult mistakes.” Only a gunner can teach a gunner how to shoot.

[Nulgorod]

This is true, but some have already tried. And appreciate :)

This is ak-107, but the main thing (balanced automation) is present.

[alex-cn]

Diopters on army weapons confuse me. They are much more demanding than an open sight for lighting and pollution, although I can not deny the possibility of more accurate aiming under optimal conditions.

[cannabis]

Only an enemy could think of a diopter on Russian weapons. Cartridge 5, 45 must be disposed of as quickly as possible. Cartridges 7,62 for automatic machines need to be issued only in cartridges of 15 pieces. An automatic machine with a gear awaits the fate of the SVT rifle. Do not take in the troops! Search and find the design of a machine with a self-cocking trigger mechanism. Increase the barrel length by 10-15 centimeters, turning the automatic carbine into an automatic rifle. Develop a universal day / night sight with power from barrel heating.

[Nulgorod]

In addition to the last paragraph, it looks like a banter.

[cannabis]

He started shooting at the end of the 60s from the AK-47. Until 1984, shot from AKM. Then for another 10 years he shot from the AK-74. There is something to compare with. Over the years, AKM had no delays in firing. When shooting from AK-74, there were many delays due to grass in the store and in the chamber, sand in the store and even somehow at night the cable from ATGM Baby came into the chamber. 5,45 cartridges must not be worn in bulk; there is a cartridge in the store, during retooling, or simply in the hands. Cartridges 7,62 never break.

[Nulgorod]

This is all right. You propose to return to automatic rifles such as AVT-40. That is, in fact, to abandon automatic fire in favor of aimed fire (mostly single). What conditions force to make such a decision?

[cannabis]

You didn’t read very carefully. Do not rush. Or is your native language not Russian?

[Nulgorod]

Well then, I didn’t understand something. Explain. First of all: about a halved store (advantages?).
Then: why should rejection of 5.45 be necessarily quick?
The increase in barrel length will adversely affect the reliability and convenience of automatic firing, so that is the question.
And finally: the double-acting mechanism (is it about it?) Is structurally complex, and (it seems) also contains a gear?

[aws4]

I DO NOT BELIEVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[genesis6]

That's right. When 5,45 farts arrived, we passed them to NZ, and AKM served for a long time and reliably.

[Michael HORNET]

The fact that a Kalashnikov assault rifle under 7,62x39 is MUCH more reliable than the same assault rifle at 5.45 is an established fact.
In general, with this simplicity of the idea of ​​the small-caliber M16 and the deification of firing bursts "in that direction", instead of practicing the SCIENTIFICALLY BASED 6,5 mm and instilling the skills of accurate shooting, nothing gave us

[aws4]

if it’s a fact, I ask you to state the materials ... a fact can only be called what is documented, such as performance characteristics that clearly show the superiority of 545 over 762 and when these performance characteristics agree with what I emphasized for myself when I used the weapon ... now I ask you to post the materials or comparative tests of akm with ak74 where, as you said, 7,62x39 is MUCH more reliable ... I look forward to !!!

[Michael HORNET]

There are saiga 5.45 and saiga 7,62
Both analogues of their combat options AK hundredth series
Even without much dirt, 5.45 regularly gives delays, about 1 in two hundred shots. 7,62 dant delays are VERY rare. Moreover, on different samples. For several tens of thousands of shots in my opinion, there was one delay of 7,62 for each sample, and these were the consequences of fencing, so it does not count (USM is different).
In general, this is obvious from the geometry of the cartridge and its power.

[aws4]

excuse me please but I didn’t notice such delays on the ak74 ... maybe it's the squabble freaks of the 90s releases ???? I somehow without cleaning in the field shot about 74 stores from ak15 with a wooden paddle and not a single delay ... comrades also beat and never let me down ... here one person wrote that 762 is more reliable in some conditions where fine sand .. here I can not say anything since I was not in such conditions ...

[Michael HORNET]

Well, which ones? If you look at the geometry of cartridges 5.45 and 7,62, then in my opinion the superiority in reliability of 7,62 is completely obvious to anyone. There are no miracles - when you win in one thing, you inevitably lose in the other. Another thing is that the army AK-74 can not be attributed to the "unreliable" weapons). But feed problems are inevitable, the only question is the number of shots.

[aws4]

Well now the picture is somehow developing ...

[aws4]

this is banter ... laughed heartily))))))))))))))))))

[beeper]

I did not think to write my comment on this Article, but ...
The second time in a short time on Topvar.ru I meet a comment for which I have all four paws! And who is it? And this is a respected cannabis, the second time in a row!
I always imagined a self-cocking trigger on an AKM, such a “bizik” —so it wasn’t enough for me (although everyone assured me that self-cocking is only for pistols and revolvers, but for machine guns and PP-impossible!), And when in the early 80s first learned about the Italian software company "Spectrum" with such a function, it was very envious and realized that "never say never!" and that a true specialist is distinguished by what he does as he should, and not how it turns out
The system of damping oscillations by a mechanical “counterload” was exotically interesting at the time and time of slide rules, Felix arithmometers and Kuhlmann Robotrons (although I’m still nostalgic for it! ) ", but now, at a new level of development of technologies and design methods, such" mechanics "is hopelessly outdated. IMHO
We need other approaches to compensate for fluctuations, because even the best of the current ones, the “balanced” AK-107, also significantly “leads”, with axial tightening, even with single shots (this is clearly visible in slow motion).
The barrel length (at one time even “voluntarily” shortened in the competitive sample by AK Kalashnikov and A. Zaitsev) does not need to be accepted as a dogma and it is quite possible to increase it by 100-150 mm (and also increase the thickness of the barrel walls!) Due to rational layout and new design solutions of the system, without increasing the overall length and weight of the weapon, it will only be beneficial (in all respects) and will already be "already cleaned" !
When the Soviet generals, impressed by the advertising performance characteristics of the M16 aerial rifle, raised the issue of switching to a small-caliber cartridge in Soviet small arms, then, of course, the gunsmiths answered "yes." But at the same time, Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov always emphasized that the modernization potential of the M43 cartridge 7,62x39mm was by no means exhausted and that domestic weapons can be used to obtain combat and operational characteristics that exceed the best NATO weapons! And, even during his lifetime, the legendary “MihTim” had the opportunity to be convinced of his own insight and rightness!
“Develop a universal day / night sight with power from barrel heating.” - shine ! I immediately remembered thermocouples for recharging the batteries of partisan radio stations -this is a very good idea to take excess heat from the barrel to charge the batteries of the "sighting and navigation system", very much in the light of the development of the Arctic open spaces, because, in the worst case, it gave the queue to the air and there is a charge for SMS on the CP !
Respectfully, Cannabis, your head works!
PS "turning an automatic carbine (7,62mm AK?) Into an automatic rifle." - you mean near-arms polemic about "terminological standards" - "checkers" or "go" ? The diopter is, apparently, the dominance of “athletes” and “airsoft” among the young generation of “gunsmiths”, although the Nikonovsky AN-94 was “out of this world” ... was it also not planned to shoot snow and mud from it?

[cannabis]

I'm not talking about terminology, but about the essence of things. Barrel length of 35-40 calibres is a carbine. 100 - 80 caliber rifle. (light machine gun). Even comparing the PC with PKT and SGM it is obvious that the last two (with long trunks) are easel, and the first is a "slammer."

[beeper]

I understand you. I completely agree.

[Nulgorod]

Quote: pishchak

The system of damping oscillations by a mechanical “counterload” was exotically interesting at the time and time of slide rules, Felix arithmometers, and Robotron kulman (although I’m still nostalgic for it!), But now, at a new level of development of design technologies and methods, such "mechanics" is hopelessly outdated. IMHO

And what are the alternatives, let me ask?

Quote: pishchak

The barrel length (at one time even “voluntarily” shortened in the competitive sample by AK Kalashnikov and A. Zaitsev) does not need to be accepted as a dogma and it is quite possible to increase it by 100-150 mm (and also increase the thickness of the barrel walls!) Due to rational layout and new design solutions of the system, without increasing the total length and weight of the weapon

This, excuse me, how? Remove the butt, or what? Another bullpup?

Quote: pishchak

although the Nikonovsky AN-94 was "not of this world" ... it was also not planned to shoot into the snow and dirt from it?

Well, do not lie! Shoot and shoot. An acceptable level of reliability. To clean it is a mess.

[beeper]

Nulgorod, you carefully read, before you go so straight for "turn" or just to insert their "five cents"? It was a diopter, including the AN-94, it (the diopter) is very sensitive to pollution, and it is cleared of sticky dirt (dried clay including), ice and snow much worse than an open sight. In addition, the diopter “tunnels” the field of view of the shooter with all the consequences .. the battlefield is not a shooting range for quiet shooting and you need to keep not only the ears, but also the eyes “on the top” —for this, an open sight is more suitable ....
Besides, are you a designer-gunsmith that you are so much interested in alternatives? A good design engineer (regardless of specialization) should think well with his head, the habit of constantly thinking is the most difficult thing in the profession of a designer, because it’s easiest to slam, adapt the finished (if any) and not strain the “gray cells” . I have my own ideas about alternative designs, but they, sorry for the tautology, are by no means alternative and you can easily come up with your own alternatives, maybe even better than mine ?! I give a hint - remember the nuances of modernizing the AK-47 in the AKM regarding improving the accuracy of firing - they have been described and told more than once by Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov-this time, and the second-you can start from the main concept of the M16 Stoner auto rifle, which is supposed (even obviously to the detriment of reliability!) the basis of its stability when fired, why in accuracy of fire in a shooting range does it exceed AK? Answer these simple questions and immediately see the ways in which you can get around the “frontal solution” with the “counterload”, and then the full flight of your engineering imagination, options — the sea and all yours and only yours (although, I must tell you, the general informational space really exists and everyone has access to it, and it happens that approximately the same thoughts are visited by several heads simultaneously and on different ends of the Earth! ... )!
The length of the barrel and the thickening of its walls, without increasing the total length and total weight? So what is the head of a designer for? -See above! The most stupid, "frontal solution" is a bullpup, if the designer doesn’t have enough brains for more, then this will work for the bullpap scheme, but there are indisputable advantages! The second immortal question of Russian intellectuals is “What to do?” - the answer: “we minimize disadvantages and use advantages to the maximum!”
PS I like the AN-94, as a technical curiosity covered with fleur, YEARS pumped up, "mystery (- like in a joke about a crow and sweets , because it was always incomprehensible to me what the “incomprehensible mystery is”, because from the first fuzzy photos of this machine gun and references to the dual, super-tempo, “first shot”, it was clear. that we are talking about a launcher system, like the German G11, a traditional gas pipe testified that the locking scheme, most likely, is domestic-to the combat stops, the store is stationary, which means that the movable carriage has an intermediate ammunition cell, everything else is insignificant details, but there was so much advertising and secrecy, Mama don’t worry!))) ", but nothing more. I understand that I would never have chosen the AN-94 as the only weapon for battle and march! And just to shoot for his life, still in his youth, shot down his throat, although, of course, his hands remember, probably, and now he would have fallen well from the Makarov, assault rifles and machine guns of the Kalashnikov

[Nulgorod]

Quote: pishchak

The diopter is, apparently, the dominance of “athletes” and “airsoft” among the young generation of “gunsmiths”, although the Nikonovsky AN-94 was “out of this world” ... was it also not planned to shoot snow and mud from it?

You need to write so that there is no misunderstanding. The submachine gun was "... not planned to shoot either." Even if the proposal after the ellipsis deals specifically with the diopter (which is no longer accurate), the comparative alliance “also” equates them with the AN-94 in the sense that both of them “did not plan to shoot in the snow and mud”.
I'm not a constructor, but I'm interested. Isn’t there a place to share knowledge or at least opinions? Here is mine:
In engineering (and not only) it is usually like this: the simpler and cheaper, the better. In writing a text to convey your thoughts to the interlocutor, the same thing. Here is an example: why write such footcloths, eh? You can do this:
"It is necessary to reduce recoil and lengthen the barrel without increasing weight. Let the designers think. No, the balancer and the bullpup are not good: out of date. Why? I hz, oldO and that's it. What is NOT out of date? Also hz .; I’m not a constructor, I’m like a drum. And there is nothing mysterious in the An-94, I have seen it for a long time, and it’s not for me. I shot a lot, and now I can. "
I assure you, the semantic load of the text has not changed.

[beeper]

The text to which you reacted indignantly was written in response to a comment by Colleague Konoprava and was addressed only to him. I hope he understood everything correctly, answered all my questions, did not ask his own.
And then you got involved, Nulgorod? Well, I told you how they respond to an intelligent person, if possible, in detail, without discounts on probably clip thinking and the inability to learn voluminous texts (believe me, on a computer I easily write these faster than with a pen or pencil on paper, but almost I don’t subtract, a narrow window, and a mouse with a big lag, then I already notice flaws on the site, but it’s not amenable to editing anymore, and there’s no special desire to edit, who needs to understand it, but you’re not one of those, right?).
Well, why did you ask me your questions, Nulgorod, if you have your own answers in which you are trying to "assure me"?
Well, the "semantic load of the text" was that do not be lazy to think with your own head, and do not look for ready-made answers, and there will be Happiness for you, somehow!

[Nulgorod]

Need not hope, and write clearly. Now it’s, of course, fashionable: to give out a set of words, and let others arrange them in the correct order, I hope they will understand. And whoever does not understand is stupid. Well, can’t decrypt my text! Or so: whoever needs it will understand, and the rest - not at work.
I asked specific questions and longed for information for consideration, and not a set of someone’s “Wishlist” that look to put it mildly, is doubtful. This applies to you, and to your like-minded hemp rights. Do you have any suggestions for replacing balanced automation? Surely there is, since you call it obsolete. Provide them, outline them (at least). So far I have seen (in both of you) only a set of "Wishlist", and doubtful. For example, I believe that it is necessary to develop plasma weapons more quickly and to introduce portable blasters into the troops, albeit with a backpack power source, so what? And if there is nothing besides Wishlist, take the trouble to at least outline their expediency in the conditions of modern wars. Point out my misconceptions. Konoprav, here, did not bother. And you too.

Quote: pishchak

Well, why did you ask me your questions, Nulgorod, if you have your own answers in which you are trying to "assure me"?

I want to ask the same question. I have answers to some questions that reflect my vision. That’s why I’m “stuck” with questions, I want to clearly see another position. In many cases, I see only arrogance, reinforced by: "I served there, I have a lot of experience, I shot a lot from that, I have serious connections", etc. And of course: “And you didn’t roll around at all” and insults. Not a single answer in essence.
Yeah On the manners - a serious man, almost an “expert”, but in fact you will look: couch general, as he is.

[beeper]

If the truth is, then you mene smiled, my friend! Apparently some kind of "manshovarty" complexes, if you find some kind of "insult" or "arrogance"? Are you keeping your own, too mentorly tone?
Yes, you have “Wishlist” and “Manners” more than all commentators combined Is there also a clear tendency to attribute to the opponent their own “fictions”?
What I have written is, as they say in such cases: "Sapienti sat (it’s enough for a clever person to understand)" - "you have enough information to think about".

[Nulgorod]

Mentor tone? Just a tone? That is, to the essence of what has been said, there are no complaints?
Is the desire to get a clear answer to a specific question too much for this forum?

Quote: pishchak

clip thinking and inability to absorb voluminous texts

Hmmm, and how should I understand that? It is so constructive criticism?
Well, let's start over. And point by point. I already understood about your experience and competence (even more than I wanted ) Question:
Why is balanced automation out of date, and what has replaced it?
When answering, do not forget: brevity is the sister of talent

[cannabis]

The fighter, neither I nor Pishchak need to assert themselves through fierce activity on the Internet. We simply exchange opinions without claiming to be the “bearers of truth in the last resort.” Due to our life and work experience, we perceive your activity either as intelligence interrogation, or as a primitive desire to grab as many bastards as possible on computer epaulets. Therefore, leave unanswered your "cute nonsense." And yet .... the rich experience of human communication makes it possible to compose a psychological, intellectual and even national portrait of the interlocutor according to the structure of his speech and vocabulary .. And the last ... remember what you once said so as not to contradict yourself, otherwise it’s already schizophrenia.

[Michael HORNET]

The aperture sight is actually really better, its criticism from those who did not use is completely incomprehensible. In the West, they simply understood this much earlier. But this also requires a weapon design with an apper, or at least with a securely fixed cover (AK-12). On submachine guns under Ratnik 3 out of 4 stands an aperture sight - and this is progressive. You just need to get used to this sight, and then it becomes clear that he is - MUCH better.
Self-plating - well, abstractly interesting, but why? It is not needed on military weapons at all. It is necessary to bring out one more lever-decker. He will get in the way. If you carry it with a cartridge in the chamber on the ACtype fuse, then it is quite safe, and if the fuse is of a modern type (with a pedal), then there is no loss of time for opening fire

[Slavs69]

Quote: pishchak

Diopter is apparently the dominance of "athletes" and "airsoft"

Voooot so much plus !!!!!

[Michael HORNET]

ALL western weapons have aperture sights (although there is a transition to optics), because apertures are more accurate and more convenient, as well as less sensitive to the quality of the shooter's sight. But no, with foam at the mouth we will defend the front sight)

[Slavs69]

Yes, with and without foam, we will uphold. But no, some with the same foam at the same mouth prove that ALL Western weapons are more convenient, more precisely.

[reg]

Quote: Slavs69

ALL Western weapons are more convenient, more precisely.

As for everything, I don’t know. But in general, is there any doubt about this?

[Finnish_Spitz]

All these design refinements are good, but in my understanding the machine should be lightweight (I have to run far with it), short, so that it is convenient to work in trenches and narrow rooms, ergonomic, to shoot right away, and not to apply more conveniently, with a minimum of details, so that when I’m cleaning I’m not much tormented, under the cartridge, which allows you to wear a larger BK and does not kill the enemy, but inflicts a serious, but not fatal wound, so that later he will be commissarized, but he will not be thrown onto the battlefield, and some of the fighters will be distracted to save his life. And reliable.

[Mihail28]

Increase the barrel length by 10-15 centimeters, turning the automatic carbine into an automatic rifle.

Already increased. They just called it not an automatic rifle, but a PKK.
The AK-74 - 415mm
RPK-74 - 590 mm,
that is, the barrel length was increased by 175 mm, slightly exceeding your offer (by 25 mm).

[silver169]

Outwardly, the AEK-971 looks certainly just awful. Even third world countries are able to produce small arms with the best design and ergonomics. By the way, what about the footcloths in the Russian army? Still running? And very interesting when the bast shoes will be adopted? Still, national shoes ... and they say very comfortable.))))

[Nulgorod]

Taste and color - no mates. As for me, it is much prettier than the M-16 or G36.
Bast shoes are very cheap, environmentally friendly and healthy shoes, if that. But it’s not suitable for the military: it wears out very quickly.
I don’t know about footcloths, it seems like 7 years ago they began to change for socks, like kirzachi - for berets. I personally liked the kirsa more.

[silver169]

And what's nice about him? Even the STG-44 looks better. But AEK is ugliness done on his knee.

[Nulgorod]

Hmm, and in what, interestingly, does the STG-44 look better?
http://www.geocities.ws/gun/images/stg44/stg1.jpg

[humungous]

Does the STG-44 look better?
Hmm ... is this a tin gun?
Because there are so many stiffeners?
Perhaps this is cool for you, because you only saw it in the pictures, it seems.
Go to the museum or something, look at how they looked after use. At least to the Museum of the Armed Forces in Moscow. There is plenty of this stuff. The entire surface of the machines in small dents is not small. Squalor.
Take a tin can, carry on the asphalt and lightly tap. Visually get the status of these machines. Cheap shit of the bending Reich, in the 43rd is already saving, their fse was, or could not stamp more thick metal.
Oh, these lovers and screamers: "Kalashnikov tore" ....

[Bad_gr]

Quote: silver169

By the way, what about the footcloths in the Russian army? Still running?

Footcloths are criticized only by those who have not walked in boots for a long time.

[would]

By the way, what about the footcloths in the Russian army? Still running?

After everyone began to give out new berets, the soldiers had to either buy new ones for their money, or walk in boots and footcloths, which, as you understand, characterizes authorized berets. So it’s not all, but again in use.

[Zaurbek]

They would give production to businessmen ... and automatic machines would already have usage statistics.

[akm8226]

Citizens - what are you arguing about? Neither you nor I held both trunks in your hands and, moreover, did not test them in full. You can only guess at something - but no more. In addition, I strongly suspect that something else is involved here, and not just the test results. In addition, as a mechanical engineer, I absolutely responsibly declare that ANYTHING! gearing is a source of malfunction, especially in the field. No matter how gold and high-quality this engagement is. Plus, as it turns out, the engagement on AEK cannot be considered really serrated by all the rules - because there is no involute. There is just pin gearing as in a primitive gear train of the 17th century. Hence another question for AEK - MTBF. For the whole impulse is extinguished exclusively by that very little gear.
Moreover, I believe that there is no need to explain what the malfunction of the machine in the conditions of battle is fraught with. In total, from the point of view of me as a user of AK and an engineer, the automatic machine AEK-971 MUST BE TAKEN! That is, no bathing in a mud bath with sand and so on. With AK, things are much better - much more! You know it yourself. Personally, I didn’t have ANYTHING for spent 2,5-3 -XNUMX rounds! failure. Here's the kinematic diagram of the AEK assault rifle - see for yourself what I said. It’s because AEK must be protected and suitable for the national guard and other specialists - they don’t have to wallow in the swamp with sand and, lying on the assault rifle, dig themselves under enemy fire.

[Nulgorod]

It is at least strange that the state tests did not reveal such a problem, and the declared reliability is equal to that of the AK-74 ... I, of course, is not an expert, but, looking at this scheme, I do not see the ways of getting external pollution into the balancer, excellent from ordinary AK.
I do not claim that it is just as reliable. More moving parts do not physically contribute to this.

[akm8226]

I say - not only test results are involved here. Think about it - the Kalashnikov firm also has the hundredth series with balanced automation - and also through the gear. But, for some reason, this option did not go into the series and is sold only for export. What - Kalashnikov engineers worse? Is the metal wrong? No, the question is deeper here - I believe that Timofeyitch’s company worked on this issue much more seriously and came to the conclusion that reliability is above all for our soldiers. To the same conclusion, which is absolutely logical, our "sworn friends" of the Americans came, by, frankly speaking, the disgusting results of the M-16 operation in Afghanistan - and why should I get 0,5 MOA accuracy if the machine does not shoot?

[Nulgorod]

My thoughts are:
Well, it’s just that the Kovrovites have been offering this system for a long time. They were the first to bring it to state tests. Only because of this, they should not discount them and give them a chance to rise, but here it is still a banal division of labor. You should not put all your eggs in one basket, there should be some kind of competition among manufacturers. Plus, two plants will produce more total output than if one is overloaded.
And it’s necessary to clarify: I believe that the Kovrov (or the same AK-107) machine, if it is inferior to the same AK-12 and the 74th in reliability, is not so much as to give up its advantages. The complication of any mechanism is not great, but to achieve new properties from it without this is impossible.

[Oqtagooi]

In the case of the AK-107, the point is not the reliability of the machine itself, but the fact that to push balanced automation into acceptable dimensions, without compromising ease of maintenance and reliability, I had to switch to an inertial circuit. The inertial circuit is, in principle, quite reliable, proved by SCS, but is sensitive to the quality of ammunition and heavy pollution. Given our climatic features and the quality of domestic gross ammunition, this is an unacceptable option for our army.

[Nulgorod]

So it's time to update the element base , improve the quality of cartridges. Due to the collapse of the union, we are stuck and stomping in one place. You can’t assemble a car from raw iron, and from aluminum - a jet plane, what constructive tricks do not go
At the expense of pollution ... Kalashnikov once said: "In the west, the parts of the machine were so tightly pressed together that the sand does not penetrate inside. And I made it so that the sand spills out of it." Great solution, as it turned out But once in this case it is not applicable ...

[Oqtagooi]

Well, in this case, the story is not over yet. In commercials of KK, a machine gun without a name regularly pops up, but with balanced automation and an elongated barrel. It is possible that this is just an option with a long stroke, the dimensions are quite suitable.

[Proxima]

Quote: akm8226

It is because AEK must be protected and suitable for the National Guard and other specialists - they do not need to wallow in a swamp with sand and, lying on a machine gun, dig themselves under enemy fire.

Is not a fact! "Specialists" also need to work in the sand and in the mud (and what sedition ) God forbid the rain will go! And they often shoot at 50 - 100 meters, where the lack of accuracy of the "classic" Kalash is not so important. So, it’s not a fact which special forces fighters will choose.
I immediately recall the Israeli special forces. The Israeli designers did not hide their admiration for Kalashnikov, calling Mikhail Timofeevich a genius who created Mona Lisa in the world of weapons. Moshe Oz, the owner of CAA, recalls his experience with the Israeli special forces: “There was no weapon more beloved by the fighters than AK. He’s still in service in some Israeli units, and they’re not going to refuse it, arguing that any other machine can refuse, and AK simply does not provide such a “function”. ”
I also recall the words of the Israeli designer Izrael Galili, who, when meeting with Kalashnikov, stated the following: "YOU AMONG US ARE THE MOST UNCONTINUED AND AUTHORITATIVE DESIGNER"

[beeper]

Dear akm8226, I fully support everything you said, but in the diagram, nevertheless, not AEK, but AK-107?

[Oqtagooi]

Quote: akm8226

Here is the kinematic diagram of the AEK automaton

Actually, this is the AK-107 circuit and has no relation to AEK, there is a different mechanism.

[akm8226]

Well, for that matter, this is the same AEK.

[akm8226]

See assembly number 2? Do you see windows under the teeth? These are two gas pistons. Between them is an asterisk of type. Now tell me, how do you ensure the normal operation of the ZZ in the windows? Do you represent the profile of the main contour? This rail is straight, with involute teeth. In addition, according to the conditions of strength and geometry of the ЗЗ (gearing), the gear should have a minimum of 17–XNUMX! teeth - do not believe me, take Anuriev three volumes and read. If less - the tooth leg is cut and strength characteristics are sharply weakened, in short, the teeth break. Total - the gear is WEAKNESS!

[akm8226]

http://popgun.ru/files/g/51/orig/1757302.gif
Here is a link to the view of this node of the machine AEK 971.

[Oqtagooi]

Quote: akm8226

Plus, as it turns out, the gearing on the AEK cannot be considered really serrated by all the rules - because there is no involute there. There is just pin gearing as in a primitive gear train of the 17th century.

Well, for that matter, not the seventeenth, but a little earlier. Methods for calculating the pinion gear developed Archimedes, if not Che.

[Oqtagooi]

In order to stop the flow of consciousness and delirium about the design of AEK-971 and AK-107, here is their device.

This is an incomplete disassembly of the AEK-971, and the number two on it indicates the shutter frame with a shutter and a balancer.

In real life, it looks like this. True, this is the shutter frame from the A-545, so to speak, an improved and modified version.

This is the AK-107 operation scheme, it is clearly seen that the principle of operation is very different from what it takes in AEK-971. The AK-107 implements an inertial circuit with a long piston stroke and a balancer. This, by the way, fully explains the skepticism of our military in relation to the AK-107. They are sure that sufficient reliability can be provided only by a scheme with a long stroke of a gas piston as in the classic Kalash. As for AEK-971, its sensitivity to contamination and jamming of the balancers is explained by the design. Small gaps and rubbing surfaces directly in the zone of operation of the gases discharged from the barrel make the failure of the automation due to contamination a matter of time and time very short. Yes, and you need to clean the inner piston very carefully, so as not to increase the gap between it and the outer piston and not to aggravate the pollution problem even more.

[Valery Saitov]

When there are several options, then there is more choice both for industry and for different branches of the armed forces - reliability is the main thing. The only thing is that the barrel needs to be made longer for 7,62 so that you can use sights and increase the range of destruction. And in the city 5,45 is good.

[Vladimir SHajkin]

a cheaper machine will become, relatively speaking, a soldier. The army needs a cheap, simple and at the same time effective machine, in this regard, the AK-12 has every chance. At the same time, the A-545 is a more complex machine with a large number of functions, more accurate. It can also be useful, but not to ordinary army units, but to special forces.

and this is true

[Earnest]

Quote: NEXUS

... why AK-12 and AK-15, and not AK-107, whose accuracy is much higher and there is practically no barrel toss?

The answer is the same as for A-545 / 762:

a cheaper machine will become, relatively speaking, a soldier. The army needs a cheap, simple and at the same time efficient machine, in this regard, the AK-12 has every chance

Because the AK-107 is more expensive.

[Anyone]

OperatorDo you even understand what I said above? Looks like no.
OK. Again. Do you have data that the assembly completely (the shutter frame and the balancer connected through gear racks and gear) is an unreliable assembly prone to failures and breakdowns even as a result, I quote you, of “light pollution”? Can you confirm the test data? No? I thought so...
Therefore, continue to talk about the kinematics of gear mechanisms and their unreliability further - you yourself know what the price of these considerations is.

[Operator]

If you do not have an engineering education, then wait for leaks in the press of the results of the AEK tests - you will have protein, there will be a whistle

[Anyone]

My education is entirely up to you. If you are more comfortable communicating, considering that I, for example, am a lawyer or a forest surveyor, then I will not dissuade you. I’m a customer-oriented interlocutor)) A propos, back to the topic ... Would you please, tell me how you rate the site as reliable / unreliable, if you do not know the reliability criteria presented to nodes of this kind on the part of the customer / consumer? )) I already asked you three times this simple question. And each time you shied away from answering it, getting into lengthy discussions about kinematic pairs. You also could not answer the question about the real detection range of IL-38 air targets in another branch. I understand, of course, that this is just a forum, and here everyone in some way trembles with the language, but you need to know the measure, the Operator))

[Operator]

In AK there are no gears from the word in general, there is only a pusher (gas piston), a large-sized helical gear shutter-bolt frame and sliding bearings (slide frame guides). What is there to break under shock?

AEK, in addition to this set, has two more miniature gears, two racks and a balancer. Catch it?

[Zaurbek]

How do you read the comments - the engineer is an engineer and drives them ... and through one physicist nuclear scientists, but we can’t do normal machines and machines, strange-yes?

[prodi]

Quote: cunning

The shot lasts 0,01 seconds (one hundredth). Automation works in 0,1 second (one tenth). The teeth will first be impacted, which will decrease as the gases expand and the pistons move. That is, everything is the opposite of what you claimed. The gear can be removed and the second piston returned by the spring as well as the bolt frame. . But this is such a gimp with overheating, sediment, soot ....

Again:
- shock load on easily turning wheel. Is it critical?
- The tooth can be removed - it is possible. But accuracy will deteriorate even when compared to heavy gear rack wear.

[prodi]

sobering up, I'm afraid that nevertheless he expressed himself foggyly.
Let me cock the shutter with a force of 1.5 kg in 0.3 sec. Automation will do this faster in 0.1 sec with a force of 4.5 kg. And even if it is 15 kg - is it really a fantastic figure for a gear pair? However, the gear itself, in contrast to the racks, has less weight, small diameter, low inertia and almost does not perform work, it transfers the energy of the racks to the springs and stops.
Instead of gear, theoretically, you can put a wheel 10 - 12 cm in diameter with rods instead of racks. When turning from 0 to 180 degrees, the balances should work just as well. However, some garbage with the layout

[would]

cannabis,

The couch experts who did not hold the arms of the discussed weapon, as always, reach new heights in the discussion of what they have never seen

One can easily imagine what and where the fighters and commanders will mean the designers, lost when cleaning weapons (in a wooded area with high grass cover, at night), one or more automatic gears, even with broken teeth!

After all, the sofa experts don’t know that the very incomplete disassembly (at least with AEK-971) that is carried out for the purpose of subsequent cleaning does not imply removing the gears, and the bolt frame and balancer itself are taken out strictly in a single unit. . But Internet experts are much better aware than designers, if they say that they will lose gears when cleaning, then they will ... at least, these experts certainly.

[cannabis]

Well, you pulled out a single unit (Oh, separated), but do not need to clean inside? What to do Seryoga? Well, pour zinc into carabiner, soak in it, and do you need to lubricate the gear racks? Well, how can one carry out an ento business without separating the rods? It’s you, comrade expert, who knew everything, and we infantry commanders should work with this Trichamudia. Why the whole world is copying a 7,62 mm AKM assault rifle, because it is practically trouble-free, just like the Makarov pistol. Reliability is the only thing that ALWAYS saves the life of a warrior, and not accuracy. By the way, exercises AK-1, AK-2, AK-3 used to be fired before. there, in my opinion, when shooting in bursts of 30 rounds, I had to hit 18 times 200 meters to get 1 sports category and 291 points on the target with circles to become a master of sports. And fell and performed! Almost every VOKU graduate had 1 AKM shooting sport and the first PM shooting sport. Managed without gears. At night, in general, everything that signified itself as flashes was aimed and felled along the trunk. They thought of a pancake, slip a crappy cartridge and gear to protect their native land!

[would]

Well and further sofa experts continue to divanize on the topic of what they didn’t even google

Well, you pulled out a single unit (Oh, separated), but do not need to clean inside? What to do Seryoga? Well, pour zinc into carabiner, soak in it, and do you need to lubricate the gear racks? Well, how can one carry out an ento business without separating the rods?

1. There is incomplete disassembly of the AEK-971 on the Internet and no one disassembles this node in it. Any infantry commander, a simple soldier, after a rifle, wonderfully knows that there is incomplete disassembly for cleaning, and if something is not included in this incomplete disassembly, then you do not need to clean it. Complete disassembly is provided only for repair in a workshop. But you, as a pseudo-commander, do not know this because even AK were not in your hands and are not familiar with its assembly, disassembly and maintenance.
2. Needless to bring your own fantasies about mythical lubrication and disassembly of the assembly, but the relevant documents in which it is indicated, or at least reviews of real users (I generally keep silent about my personal experience), you are not able to. Therefore, as a couch expert, you continue to fantasize on the topic of what you have never seen in your eyes, giving out just wild pearls and falling into other wilds.

Speaking of pearls

Do you need to lubricate the gear racks?

1. Anyone who is even a little familiar with mechanics knows perfectly that the gear racks by themselves, in fact of their existence, do not need lubrication. In door locks where they are massively used, they are in 99.99% of cases from the factory without the slightest lubrication, and their lubrication will lead to loss of warranty. Because lubrication is not structurally provided, it is forbidden and leads in this unit to what you do not know about.
2. Do you have any idea what the lubrication will become in a gas-filled assembly, and even on a gear rack? Judging by the fact that you offer to lubricate them, no, you do not know.

Therefore, I am with you couch experts and laugh. You fantasize about what you have never seen and beat yourself in the chest.

[would]

Reliability is the only thing that ALWAYS saves the life of a warrior, and not accuracy.

I completely agree with you! They invented all kinds of AKs with unreliable springs, some kind of butterfly valves, gas pistons. They thought of a pancake, slip a trashy cartridge and a gas outlet to protect their native land!

Here's another thing before was the "Berdanka"! No gas outlet, reloading is carried out by muslim shooter, which means wildly reliable. The cartridge can not be recharged because it does not recharge, the shutter cannot be closed because it can always be tapped with a hand and so on! Reliability! We urgently need to return with an unreliable machine gun to the reliable Berdanki and Mosinki. So win!

[cannabis]

What have you created over the past 30 years? People’s mafia, legal mafia, parliamentary mafia, financial mafia, political mafia. Everywhere and in all the miserable fruits of imitation of the American lifestyle. Not a single poet was born, there are no writers at least at the level of Ancharov, and I’m not talking about Tolstoy. The last music is more or less similar to music; it is a City which does not exist. Cinema - tracing paper from the old American Rambas, Man Overboard and Seven Days Six Nights. It's better not to talk about weapons! Three or four steps down in the rifle. The main level - machine guns and weapons of secret killers - Vintorez, Val. For that matter, not a single Beretta, not a single Yarygin with Glock can be compared in accuracy to the ordinary Nagan. And the Mosin rifle is the best that could have been invented under an idiotic cartridge with a rim of model 1908. And the use of bimetallic shells has led to the fact that machine guns under this cartridge tear these shells and become silent. The same thing happened before the 2nd World War. The USSR was not allowed to create its own engines, its own radars, even before the war, work on nuclear weapons was curtailed, and there was a catastrophe with communications in general. That's it ..... We will win, but at what cost! We would have to withdraw our internal worms, and get rid of bloodsucking.

[would]

What have you created over the past 30 years? People’s mafia, legal mafia, parliamentary mafia, financial mafia, political mafia.

How much I did not know about myself, I was thinking here, I am an ordinary person, but I happen to be Rockefeller of Russian scale, at least.

[Michael HORNET]

It is ridiculous to think that a soldier with AEK will not experience difficulties in servicing this unit and its reliability will be high
Why shove all these gears? it's for firing bursts that way
So what difference does it make from which machine gun in that direction? Around Zero result will be with any weapon. We must shoot and learn optical sights, and even set the heat nozzle, here’s a REAL way to dramatically increase the effectiveness of a soldier on the battlefield, rather than relying on “six bullets per running meter” - there will never be enough cartridges

[would]

It is ridiculous to think that a soldier with AEK will not experience difficulties in servicing this unit and its reliability will be high

And you do not laugh and do not read me, but listen, for example, to a real user of a special forces soldier

https://youtu.be/dkkPQV9qXAU?t=6m10s

Although this is usually not an indicator for couch experts, even without seeing them live they know everything better than some special forces users.

[Michael HORNET]

And where does the special forces? The fact that the special forces are able to master this machine, I have no doubt. But the Warrior contest is not a weapon choice for special operations forces. For Special Forces and the like, the choice of AEK is quite justified, it is not suitable for the army as a whole

[would]

But what about the special forces’s weapons in their hands becoming completely different, all the problems and gears so hated by sofa experts disappear? Do they shoot differently? No, that’s not how it works. If there were problems with service and reliability, they would have been with the special forces in the same way, and this particular commando would have said that. Actually, the special forces said this, but with reference to another, to corrosion AEK-971. But it was in the "male toys" at Vadyuk, and not in this video.

So you’ve already decided here, he’s either suitable for the special forces who shoot and clean the AEK just like the army, or he’s not suitable and, accordingly, the special forces are lying. Some kind of intermediate option simply does not exist, capricious weapons are naughty at all. The only difference is that an experienced user knowing about it takes intensive care of weapons and does not let him be capricious, and Vaska from the village constantly complains about problems. But the first one knows about the vagaries of his weapon in the same way as the second, more likely even more than the second.

[Michael HORNET]

The world, however, is not black and white, is it not funny for you yourself?
Special forces, by definition, are MUCH more competent and qualified users, also with clearly increased intelligence (against soldiers of military service and even contract soldiers) who APRIORI will be able to competently operate AEK. In addition, the specifics of using SSO weapons - it is very short-lived, from operation to operation. Between them actually failed weapons can be replaced. Therefore, special forces may not have such a resource or reliable weapon if they have any other REQUESTED advantages. Examples of this wagon starting right from the BCC / VAL. In addition, spare parts in the MTR are delivered much more smoothly than in army units. Plus, more literate and more gunsmiths. Plus, a completely different specificity of using weapons, other qualities demanded by it.
So the thesis "if special forces can - then motorized rifles can" - is completely false.
For the army, a machine with complications is ABSOLUTELY not needed. In my opinion. Qualifications of the current user of the AK-74M (hundredth series) above the roof. There will be a more qualified user - you can think of a machine that was originally adapted for mounting optics with a heat nozzle, which the AK-74 does not correspond to, although you can talk separately about optics and separately about the telescope on the side bracket. At the same time, caliber 5.45 becomes frivolous, since the arrow will severely limit the arrow in effectiveness. The main fire is single. The queue is only short-circuited and suppressed (as now actually everyone is doing it). Therefore, IF moving to a new level - then to a more powerful and long-range cartridge, it’s ridiculous to use expensive devices on weapons for the collective farmer

[would]

Naturally, they left the answer to the direct question, or rather ran away. Instead of answering how it turns out, your special forces weapon has no difficulties in servicing and its reliability is high, while motorized riflemen don’t dash off a whole tirade that has nothing to do with the issue.

[AKS-U]

I would choose AEK-971 (A-545). My opinion can be objective only for me. For everyone else, it is subjective. He would have suited the boarders just right.

[k_ply]

For once, when it comes to ergonomics, on the AEK-971 entered the fuse-translator key, when you can really not remove the hand from the pistol grip fire control and not be distracted from aiming. And the frame butt is finally folding to the right and not interfering with the cocking and firing in the stowed position (God! how awkward my AKS-74 was over my shoulder), which is more convenient for transferring to a fighting position from the stowed position.

[cannabis]

For me, a weapon starts with a f-1 grenade, then a failure and further on growing from the SGM machine gun. But if we are talking about a machine gun, then it is preferable to have it with a wooden butt. Especially AKM with cherry-colored pieces of wood. He wants to smell and eat. Something similar to love arises in the soul when you squeeze such a small cradle in your hands. During the war, notches can be made on a wooden butt according to the number of enemies destroyed. You can cut out the name of a friend who died for his homeland or the name of his beloved “LUSYA” and press his cheekbone to this name while shooting lying down. In the end, from the butt, you can pluck a small bonfire at your last hour and warm your hands, or make a splint for a broken limb. And how convenient it is to beat the enemy with the butt angle at the temple, but I don’t even say it! An assault rifle with an iron butt is soulless, and the prevailing butt is not laid out by stiff frozen fingers. It is also insulting and humiliating, like the inability to unfasten one's fly on a ski march, when an amazed fighter shouts “men, men, help!”, And then he goes doom along the track with dragging sticks. No, I'm for wooden stocks!

[k_ply]

It is difficult to protest almost to the poet, especially when he wants to speak out (even a little out of topic). The current here is wooden folding somehow awkward (in fact, I consider the “left” traveling position a misunderstanding). He would also be happy if the AK-74 were laid around the state with a tree to replace the AKS-fellow (and even the AK-74M, later).

[cannabis]

Yes, it is clear who needs folding stocks and collapsible grenade launchers - parachutists. A "Mahre" is better not a folding butt. The industry has huge problems - too much oil and it has to be turned into plastic for stocks, but there is no tree at all, it was given to the Chinese. Policy......

[Oqtagooi]

Politics is not the same. Carbolite factories remained in sprat, so forget about wooden stocks.

[cannabis]

What is the relationship between wooden butts and the starting material for plastics Carbolite? And what then does the Karbolit plant in Kemerovo produce? What a horror! Forget about sprats. Or wrote so, "from the bulldozer"? It's boring .... I understand.

[Oqtagooi]

Not from the bulldozer, but calling carbolic plywood carbolite is really a mistake on my part.

[cannabis]

Carbamide glue still sticks together plywood.

[Oqtagooi]

And bakelite varnishes. A lot of composite materials based on wood veneer have been developed in our country.

[Michael HORNET]

I am embarrassed to ask - what if you make the translator-fuse in the Kalashnikov system not through F, but in the right way - what, do you need to remove your hand from the handle? Not even 70 years have passed, when Izhevsk specialists finally looked at the athletes and the west - they saw that it turns out that the fuse in the Kalashnikov system can be made friendly and convenient))

[Tarikxnumx]

Michael HORNETHave you carefully read my post before replying? I wrote about R&D during the transition from 7.62 to 5.45 ... And even it seems to me that they were carried out much later than in the early 40s.

[Michael HORNET]

And where did you read about these R&D? They were not there, or give a link
The topic of 6,5 was when we switched to an intermediate one. The end of the 40s and the report is and was published. And when switching to low-pulse 6,5, it was no longer tested.

[Droid]

Quote: Michael HORNET

And where did you read about these R&D? They were not there, or give a link

Read Dvoryaninov. There is.

[Tarikxnumx]

Here is information from the monograph of Dvoryaninov, http://patronschik.ru/

[Nulgorod]

Interesting. However, the results of the LSAT program make you take a fresh look at the ratio of calibres.

“During the army tests conducted in 2012, the JSSAP special commission selected two versions of new cartridges for further work - shellless (the bullet recessed into the pressed powder mixture) and telescopic (the bullet is inside the plastic sleeve, recessed into the powder mixture). Both of the ammunition were "about 40% lighter than a traditional cartridge with a brass sleeve and significantly shorter."

“The new carabiner from Textron Systems was named 6.5 CS Carbine (6.5mm case-telescoped carbine) and designed for 6,5 mm caliber telescopic cartridges. According to Ben Cole, CS Carbine project engineer, the new weapon model was created in 2014 , 6,5 mm ammunition, presented as an intermediate version between telescopic cartridges of caliber 5,56 and 7,62 mm According to the description, 6,5 mm telescopic cartridges are almost identical to ammunition of caliber 7,62 mm in terms of ballistic characteristics and are significantly lighter In addition, the kinetic energy of a 6,5 mm bullet is 300% higher than that of the analogue 5,56 mm caliber.
Prototype 6.5 CS Carbine weighs almost 4 kg and is powered by 20-charge stores. According to Cole, the first working prototypes of new machine guns will go to the tests of the American army at the beginning of next year. After refinement (weight reduction), the new carbines will have a high chance of replacing the M4A1 assault rifles in the US Armed Forces. "
Something like this (article from 2016)

[Tarikxnumx]

All is well, but only the LSAT program was turned off. They didn’t get into polymers :)

[Michael HORNET]

It has not yet been minimized, but transformed into the Next Generation Squad Automatic Rifle (NGSAR) program:
Here are the requirements of the United States Department of Defense for a NEW UNIFIED rifle to replace the current M4 carbine and M249 machine gun (ALL M249 and part of M4 are replaced)
Next Generation Squad Automatic Rifle (NGSAR):
System Weight: The NGSAR combat configured weapon including sling, bipod and sound suppressor will weigh no more than 12 pounds [5,45 kg] (T) 8 pounds [3,63 kg] (O). This does not include ammunition or magazine.
The NGSAR will achieve overmatch by killing stationary, and suppressing moving, threats out to 600 meters (T), and suppressing all threats to a range of 1200 meters (O).
Rate of Fire: NGSAR shall be capable of a rate of fire of 60 rounds per minute for 16 minutes and 40 seconds without a barrel change or risk of cook-off. Cyclic 200 rounds without cook off (T). NGSAR will be capable of 108 rounds per minute sustained for 9 minutes and 16 seconds without barrel change or risk of cook off. Cyclic 300 rounds without cook off (O).
NGSAR will have the capability to fire in automatic and semi-automatic modes (T). NGSAR will be capable of firing two rounds with one trigger pull with both rounds impacting the target within 1 inch at 100 meters in automatic or semi-automatic modes (O).
Well ... It turns out a little shortened PKK))) as the main weapon and a replacement for a machine gun with a tape. PKK! With optics, suppressor and removable bipod;)

[Tarikxnumx]

Well, we didn’t get into polymer sleeves and telescopic cartridges, but let’s try a sniper rifle from a vibranium with a machine-gun fire mode ... Money must be taken from the budget somewhere, and then the next time ...
2 bullets per 100 meters per inch is 1 MOA. Sniper rifle. And yes, you are not confused by the scatter of minimum and desirable requirements for almost all indicators almost twice? weight from 5.5kg to 3.6, overwhelming range from 600 to 1200. We ourselves do not know what we want?

[timeout]

Quote: Michael HORNET

ALL M249 and part M4 are replaced

No dear, only M249 are changing

The Next Generation Squad Automatic Rifle (NGSAR) is a single incremental program to meet future force warfighting needs. It is the planned replacement for the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) in Brigade Combat Teams (BCT) and select support units during the next decade. It will combine the firepower and range of a machine gun with the precision and ergonomics of a carbine, yielding capability improvements in accuracy, range, and lethality.

Here is the link to the full document: https://www.fbo.gov/utils/view?id=a38c54658f9479a
b8befa19dd314d4ef

[RF man]

It was, at its core, commercial. At a very ordinary exhibition, the representative of the producer made a loud, unreasonable statement that their weapons had "high chances" to replace the M4.
The question is - after how many years can this happen? After 10, 20, 30? ..
If from the beginning of the program to the first sample of weapons some 12 years have passed.

[Michael HORNET]

So after all, Dvoryaninov does NOT say that these tests were repeated! That's the whole point - instead of conducting new full-fledged HONEST tests on a 6,5 mm cartridge, USED the old test data of the 40s, from which they took the numbers, interpreted them SO AS NECESSARY (that is, along with objective data they had a little lie) and , in view of the presence of an “opinion” that 6,5 is not practical, it was recognized as “unpromising”. How can a bullet with THREE greater kinetic energy be “equal” in lethal and punching action? Especially considering the helplessness of 5.45 when working through obstacles. You shoot at 300 m from 5.45 (given that the civilian 5.45 has a much higher ballistic coefficient of the bullet than the military 7N10 - 0.326 versus 0.29, which is explained by the much larger mass of the civilian bullet) and then from the weakest 6,5 Grendel of the BPZ production (specially weakened and It is equipped with a rather light bullet for caliber 6.48 grams) - you will see the difference with your own eyes, how they are "equal."
When everyone can only read "research" - this is one thing
When anyone who is interested has the opportunity to PERSONALLY CONFIRM the fidelity of the postulates read in the book - then, excuse me, a completely different situation arises when the "conclusions" from the once conducted tests do not seem to be made honestly and impartially
Here is the opinion of Polyakov
https://vpk.name/news/148845_bessmyislennaya_skor
ostrelnost.html
Concept 5.45 is the most light cartridge at that time for firing a low-trained shooter with short bursts in that direction
At the same time, the approach to the mass of the cartridge is not so obvious - what is the use of its small mass, if these cartridges need much more to hit the target? The total mass of one cartridge 6,5 is even less than two cartridges 5.45
Yes, 6,5 has more cartridge weight of a traditional design and a stronger recoil momentum. So if we look at the video of real military operations, we will see that almost no one shoots in bursts. Even the Arabs realized that the main shooting mode was single, when you control EVERY bullet, and not "somewhere there" with a near-zero effect
Naturally, to realize all the advantages of the caliber of 6,5, you need another soldier - more skilled and effective, you need a different sight - optics and even preferably with a heat nozzle - otherwise the probability of hitting the target at a distance of over 300 m will not increase, and there really will be no sense

[Tarikxnumx]

Poles preparing for the next "trench" war? I remember that the generals in World War I also strongly resisted automatic weapons ... They also wanted one shot - one corpse. Well, what a saving of supply is obtained ... By the way, here Polyakov’s articles also appeared, back in those days, when it was possible to set cons. And from these same minuses they never climbed.
And yes, read the comments under the article to which you gave the link. There it is justifiably opposed to him.
What we see in the current theaters of the database is nothing but local conflicts of limited numbers. Even in Syria. In most clashes involved before the company, the maximum battalion of fighters. There is time to heal and shoot solo ... In the event of a major war, when a couple of divisions converge in a limited space, the one that will be able to put up a larger fire barrier, if I may say so, will win. And here suddenly machine guns and machine guns start to steer ...
P.S. Do you have evidence that the data was taken from tests of the 40s? Or is it your personal, unreasonable opinion? I allow myself to note that in Soviet times, the attitude to military development and research was much more serious, and hacks with adjusting numbers were hardly possible.

[RF man]

Quote: Michael HORNET

Any interested person has the opportunity to personally verify

Courts on your statements, for you personally - is NOT a problem. Why then just not post your own photos or videos of such tests?
Himself about 3-4 years ago I wanted to find "in the vicinity" - AR-ku and it did not work out for me.
Yes, in theory, "anyone interested" can go out to conduct a comparative test of one type of weapon in 3 different calibres, but you will have to either buy all of them, or look for owners who agree to spend their time.

Quote: Michael HORNET

the main shooting mode - single, when you control EVERY bullet, and not "somewhere there" with near-zero effect

The US CLC has already posted data a couple of times, with its “discovery” - it turned out that it’s more effective to hit a moving target with a burst (if I'm not mistaken, according to their data, the probability will rise by 60%, I don’t remember how many yards it was).

[RF man]

Quote: Michael HORNET

Here is the opinion of Polyakov

Here is another opinion of Polyakov. He generally has a wide view. Only serious research of OWN does not publish something.
[media = https: //vpk-news.ru/articles/32452]
Well, it's about super weapons
[media = https: //vpk.name/news/128072_ot_ak47_k_sup
eroruzhiyu_za_odno_nazhatie.html]

[Michael HORNET]

I am not an opponent of the queue) But you need to understand that the queue is a limited instrument yet, yes, up to about 70 meters from a small-caliber queue it is more convenient to get into a growing moving target
But to assess the overall effectiveness, one must understand the "specific gravity" of each type of shooting. How often on the battlefield up to 70 m there will be opponents running sideways (because if he runs at you it doesn’t matter how to shoot)
6,5 as a single caliber will allow the machine gun to be transferred to this cartridge. It will turn out almost 7,62x54 machine gun for impact on the target with the weight of the ammunition and the entire machine gun from the RPD. And the Marxman (a la RPK) will come out of it much more efficiently
And the effectiveness of machine guns in the hands of ordinary shooters is still extremely low

[RF man]

Quote: Michael HORNET

6,5 as a single caliber will allow the machine gun to be transferred to this cartridge.

They won’t translate, because it’s just NOT advisable.
The transition from 7,6 to 5,6 had at least “weight” and “material” motivation - a decrease in the weight of wearable ammunition and a decrease in the consumption of materials for production.
In a real "shooting duel", there is no SUBSTANTIVE perusal either at 5,6 over 7,6, or vice versa.
The transition from 5,6 to 6,5 will not give a tangible effect, either - only an increase in the weight of BC and the consumption of materials (well, even by 25%) and hemorrhoids with re-equipment.
The same thing with the return and back to 7,6.
Maybe in 20-50 years the caliber will be replaced, but taking into account some additional developments that are not (or expensive, or there are flaws) now.

[Grid]

Maybe in 20-50 years the caliber will be replaced, but taking into account some additional developments that are not (or expensive, or there are flaws) now.

In the next 5-10 years, I think, they’ll finish the plastic sleeve. It is possible the appearance of a telescopic cartridge. And everything else is too unlikely. Either expensive with a minimal increase in efficiency, or already beyond the bounds of fiction.

[Nulgorod]

cannabis,
You may not believe it, but me too. And I don’t give a damn about the local "little thing" I expected to hear rebuttals to some of my points, for example, that barrel extension is not possible without extension of the structure, and you do not want to use bullpup, since it’s primitive . It is theoretically possible to increase its length and thickness and at the same time not increase its weight, but such a barrel will turn out to be “golden” . That the barrel extension itself will inevitably lead to an increase in the weight and dimensions of the entire structure, etc ...
But since you don’t want to make contact, , "intelligence interruption" I stop. Each remains his own: you dream of meaningless modifications, I dream of plasma guns.
And by the way, to call balanced automation obsolete is the same as to call obsolete T-90 or Kalash itself, which in itself puts the pech in a negative light. Well, you, respectively.

[Michael HORNET]

https://vpk.name/news/128072_ot_ak47_k_superoruzh
iyu_za_odno_nazhatie.html
The fact that they hastened to go to 5.45)
What is characteristic - in the same Syria, the lion's share of warring people uses exactly 7,62x39, although they can just drop it and start riveting 5.45
The mass of the cartridge and the smaller recoil momentum are not the most important characteristics, as they try to teach

[Tarikxnumx]

In Syria, the lion's share of warring people is at war with what they managed to buy. For the most part, these are Akm produced in China, thrown on the black market, plus all sorts of Romanian and Yugoslav samples again from long-term storage warehouses. The Chinese do not produce weapons in caliber 5.45x39. They have two calibers for manual shooting 7.62x39 and 5.8x42, all of a sudden ... Although they also experimented with a caliber of 6.5-6.2. But for some reason they decided to put into service exactly 5.8x42.
The mass of the cartridge and a smaller recoil momentum is one of the most important characteristics of a weapon. The smaller the mass of one cartridge, the more their soldiers will be able to take with them, and the greater the likelihood that he will not be on the battlefield with one bayonet-knife. A smaller recoil momentum, all other things being equal, such as flatness, accuracy, terminal ballistics (the degree of damage to a shot fighter), makes it possible to stabilize a weapon faster after a shot and return the sight to the target. Moreover, it is noteworthy, regardless of whether a semi-automatic or automatic fire is being conducted. I highly recommend going to the shooting range or to the shooting range and trying to shoot from the akm and ak-74 with semi-automatic runaway fire for a time at a target of 50m. And then see how many times in 30 seconds you, from a standing position, will hit the target. You will be unpleasantly surprised. I don’t even stutter about bursts of fire ...
Polyakov, IMHO, a schizophrenic theorist who lives by the principle - there are two opinions - mine and wrong. Where is the mathematical rationale? Where are the results of practical tests of his ideas and systems? There is only his patent and a handful of articles, under each of which, about the middle of the discussion, he rolls down to theses of the type - "you all ... omno and you don’t understand nifiga"

[Michael HORNET]

About
I highly recommend going to the shooting range or to the shooting range and trying to shoot from the akm and ak-74 with semi-automatic runaway fire for a time at a target of 50m. And then see how many times in 30 seconds you, from a standing position, will hit the target. You will be unpleasantly surprised. I don’t even stutter about bursts of fire ..

So I do this very tightly) of course the AK-74 recoil in the drain is less than the AKM / AK-103 and 5.45 bullets will hit the target more. This is if you do not deal with improvements. If with modifications, then a runaway single will equal the number of hits.
And the return of the machine for 6,5 will also be more than 5.45 - but acceptable. But there will be other advantages - still interconnected. Especially in the subject we are talking about balanced automation - that’s just brought to mind (adapted for using optics with a nozzle) AEK 6,5 Grendel would be especially interesting.
Would launch this AEK at 7,62 in civilian sale, one could speak more substantively

[Tarikxnumx]

Why fence a garden with a new cartridge-weapon system if the adopted one has not exhausted itself and at the same time, whatever one may say, has an advantage in a number of parameters. Persistence, ammunition weight, recoil momentum, armor penetration is better at 5.45 than 7.62 and 6.5? What prevents to continue to develop this system? New technologies are now available, such as that of powder metallurgy, which, as for me, may well make it possible to obtain ammunition with the required characteristics all in the same caliber. Again, on balanced automation, as a means of reducing or stretching the time of the recoil impulse, the light did not converge. There are a bunch of options for improving these options in other ways ...
Why do all those who advocate an urgent replacement 5.45x39 never raise the issue of the economy of this issue? Can you imagine the amount of work, money and time that will be required to completely replace the regular weapons of the army?

[bunta]

Quote: Michael HORNET

What is characteristic - in the same Syria, the lion's share of warring people uses exactly 7,62x39, although they can just drop it and start riveting 5.45

The rivet AK-74 is not the rivet AK-47. Like it or not, but the technology is more complicated. And the AK-74 is hindered by the lack of free sale of cartridges of the 7Н24 type, which cannot be riveted without a carbide.

[Operator]

Mikhail HORNET does not want to understand that the matter is not in the design of the machine, but in the ammunition - the specific load of a 5,45 / 5,56 mm bullet is greater than that of his beloved Grendel 6,5 mm and, accordingly, penetration is higher (when the muzzle is equal speed and core material).

Penetration is today the main indicator of army small arms.

[would]

What is characteristic - in the same Syria, the lion's share of warring people uses exactly 7,62x39, although they can just drop it and start riveting 5.45

From now on, please in more detail. Where and on what can the Syrians rivet AK under 5.45? Where are their weapons factories of the appropriate level located and why do we not know a single Syrian copy of AK?

[beeper]

Yeah, really! As in that joke- "And your Galya is a spoiled girl"? ... And is she also a "whim" ?!
I quote from the post of a respected colleague Konoprava addressed to you, Nulgorod: "Konoprava December 19, 2017 19:53 ↑
You didn’t read very carefully. Do not rush. Or is your native language not Russian? "
It seems that the Russian language is not your native language, and I am developing, Nulgorod, alas And the texts written to you strive to exaggerate to a complete distortion of the meaning, you don’t learn at all what you “want”, but simply demand “chewing” ? What kind of "intelligence interrogation" on your part can you, precious you, our "dreamer of plasma guns," have you really dreamed of?
My quote is from a previous comment that caused your quasi "righteous indignation": "The system of damping oscillations by a mechanical" counterload "was exotically interesting at the time, logarithms," Felix "arithmometers ... but now, at a new level of technological development and methods of construction, such a "mechanics" is hopelessly outdated. IMHO (this is already a common idiom - "I have an opinion, maybe an erroneous one") )
We need other approaches to compensate for fluctuations, because even the best of the current ones, the "balanced" AK-107, also significantly "leads", with axial tightening, even with single shooting (this is clearly visible in slow motion). "--- Well, indicate, Nulgorod, where in my text "the name of balanced automation is obsolete", if we are only talking about the obsolete PARTICULAR "mechanical" damping of oscillations using the "drive counterweight (conditionally generalized)" ?!
Even if, Nulgorod, the Russian language is not native to you, in order to understand the meaning of the text, first read and translate it with a dictionary, look through the explanatory dictionary of Russian words, work with Russian phraseological units ... and think systematically, holistically, deeper and more broadly, and not separate, incoherent "clips", snatches, and you will be happy!
Once again, I give you a "fishing rod for fishing ..." as a method of developing independent thinking, if you learn it, you will be able to yourself (without "praaative" "pishchaks"!))) answer your questions and will not demonstrate such obsessive infantilism, well, just like a small child, by God I have such a feeling from your posts to me that I was a child, a kind of capricious spoiled girl, offended, you see, didn’t make contact with him ?!
The questions I “reformulate” are simple for you- “How can I make the barrel longer and thicker, but without changing the total length and weight of the entire design of the automatic rifle?” - think over them and pick up a pencil and paper — start writing down — sketching the options that come to mind. and thoughts, do not be afraid of their initial “delusions” (this is only the beginning !))), because if you were able to dream out a "plasma gun", then with the mechanics you should also be able to do quite well, go for it, good luck to you! Remember, you can balance automation in a variety of ways and the mechanical “counterload” is, in my opinion, the most banal solution for “lazy designers”!
PS “I will expose the Pishak in a negative light and quite agree that although the T-90 tank will remain in service for a long time and touched for modernization (given the growing miniaturization and“ intellectualization ”of tank control systems and other“ gadgets ”) not exhausted, but it is morally, conceptually, outdated at the moment when the T-14 Armata tank appeared in the series and went into the army! In the same way, it will be possible to say about “Kalash”, if he has a worthy successor (and for now, no, even in the prototypes, maybe there are some “top-secret” ones ?!)))! Frankly, without hiding, with all my sympathies for “Kalash”, I prefer the Dragunov locking scheme, three stops

[Michael HORNET]

And how does the number of stops affect the quality of automatic weapons? In Some Saigas and Boars, they were also three for some time, and so what? Nothing has improved, or rather worsened, after which this "bright idea" was abandoned. Three emphasis, spacing 120 is the topic of boltoviks, and that. In automatic, it would be easy to clean and the cartridges served well. A bunch of little emphasis also did not show itself well
In general, the topic of construction with effective managers remaining in the country instead of designers, who have the task of mastering the budget and fraud, is not very grateful

[beeper]

Three combat stops introduce an element of stability in the locking unit and more favorably perceive the load during firing, as they say: "two stops are good, but three are much better!"

[Grid]

Three emphasis, spacing 120 is the topic of boltovikov,

But Dragunov did not even know ...

[aws4]

Michael HORNET, so it was necessary to start with this ... we are talking about the fact that the troops

[Grid]

Bad_gr,
Well so I am not surprised. Baby, running to witness Shpakovsky! Yong will give you parabellum.
And for me you are a very empty place.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Grille

,
Well so I am not surprised. Baby, running to witness Shpakovsky! Yong will give you parabellum.
And for me you are a very empty place.

The statement of a person who did not see the subject of conversation, but theoretically came to the conclusion that he was right.
About your ability to draw logical conclusions, a saying goes:
"the one he sinned with, the other he made laugh."

[hezbola]

What BZ are they going to hit with such calibers? db .. right now 8,6 lm and .458 socom (analog 9x39) nij4A ar500 steel does not beat, for barriers there are also caps and dampers. all these are tomats for wars of the last century with the Papuans, for a long time you need ake for at least 8,6 bz with a polymer sleeve, hydrobuffer, DTK type um tactical (you can cut it out) Ideally, under.375, especially since warrior3 with exoskeletons is on the way ..