Military Review

Autumn, ships are burning in the sky ... About the report of the Roscosmos Commission

80
On the eve of the so-called emergency commission of Roscosmos published a report, which reflected the results of the investigation of the unsuccessful launch of the Soyuz-2.1b launch vehicle. It is worth recalling that as a result of the failure that befell the space system being put into near-earth orbit, 28 of November lost 19 of various satellites, including not only domestic, but also foreign ones. In Roscosmos promised to conduct an investigation as quickly as possible and not to delay the conclusions. The usual in such cases, the publication of the conclusions of the special commission did not really happen, and the final calculations of the experts who made up the commission were published two weeks after the crash.


Autumn, ships are burning in the sky ... About the report of the Roscosmos Commission


From the materials of the commission that were sent for publication in the media:
The collapse was caused by the unpredictable behavior of the Fregat upper stage after it had separated from the launch vehicle. This revealed a hidden problem in the algorithm, which was not manifested for decades of successful launches of the Soyuz-Fregat ligament.

The terms “unpredictable behavior” and “a problem that has not manifested itself for decades”, frankly speaking, are alarming.
Further from the commission of Roscosmos:
After the separation of the upper stage, the control system began to issue a control action to turn the orbital unit to the required angular position. At the moment of spatial orientation of the accelerating unit, the non-standard angular position of the RB “Fregat” was recorded. As a result, he left the calculated orbit after the incorporation of the main engines.


Further, the specialists stated that the existing combination of parameters of the launching pad of the cosmodrome and the azimuths of the launch vehicle and upper stage were never met. That is why, they declare in Roscosmos, the existing methods did not allow to initially identify problems with this kind of combination.

More from the official report of the Ministry:
Having conducted a comprehensive analysis, the commission members believe that the manifestation of this incorrectness of the algorithm might not have happened when launching the same payload from the Vostochny cosmodrome with the same upper stage on the same rocket. The launch would have passed normally, for example, in the summer or in the event that the areas of falling of the detachable parts of the PH were set aside from the selected ones.


Frankly, such statements made in the final report look pretty strange. One gets the impression that all these interpretations about the “unseen until now” combination of parameters and azimuths are used in order not to focus on the main problems. But the main problems lie in the actual irresponsibility of some against the background of lack of control on the part of others.

When you read the paragraph “as if” about the reasons for the fall, and in it (in the paragraph of the report) there appears a phrase that, they say, the launch would have passed normally, if it were summer, and not late autumn — the pre-winter period, then you involuntarily ask yourself: And when did the time come in astronautics, when it became important to take into account the whole time of year, rather than the specific time of launch and its specific date, for the output of satellites to near-earth orbit? It turns out that keeping track of the coordinates of the launch site of the launch site and azimuth of the launch vehicle for Roscosmos specialists is much easier in the summer than keeping track of the same parameters in the fall ... Is it possible that not only those involved in calculations, but also the performance of the processors used in the equipment are cold? ..

Based on the statement of the special commission, it remains only to get lost completely when answering the question: how did the Soviet specialists manage to fake and launch the first artificial Earth satellite in October? Is it possible that their lateral computing tools were not affected by the October dank weather, and the launching table “did not tilt” in relation to the launch vehicle azimuth during the calculations.

In general, you can play here as long as you like, and those very problems of irresponsibility and lack of control do not disappear from this. By the way, the government stated that, they say, there’s no need to worry too much. Like, all the losses covered by insurance. Fear, they say, and further, and drop even on 19, even on 119 satellites "in one sitting" ... everything will pay off. But what about prestige and reputation, which no insurance exactly covers, and cannot cover by definition. But is it really accepted to talk about it by officials today ...

After all, if it were customary to say, then I would have to state the obvious things: the storekeeper (or the welder), by definition, cannot be the main culprit in the crash of a spacecraft for the simple reason that it is just a storekeeper (and just a welder). And behind them there is a whole system of “effective management,” whose representatives master enormous funds from the budget, but a priori are not ready to bear personal responsibility.

After all, if it were customary to say, we would have to admit that we have built such an education system, which eventually smears any incompetence, exposing it to an individual “creative” approach. He is an artist, he sees it ...

If we, starting with the education system, the paper of the report replaces any real result of the work, and it’s on the paper that the eyes of the inspection bodies are burning, then what to say in other industries. In the same space, you can then unsubscribe, that, they say, the coordinates, parameters and azimuth "it would be better to be summer", and then "put" the form of the insurance policy - and all the cases.

All interested parties have already figured out that it is this approach that suits the management. And then it is necessary, indeed, to look for real culprits, to find a reference to modern training in educational "organizations." Well, that’s good, you’ll have to come to the current programs of the famous TV journalist Konstantin Semin, and answer his burning questions about why our educational centers are growing like mushrooms after rain, and the level of education continues to fall, why through federal channels - “ Sirius "and other" Kvantoriums ", and in the provincial schools there are toilets on the street, thin roofs (although devastation is not known to be closet ...), and 1 is a computer in the computer science office, and even then brought from an enthusiastic teacher.

So, it turns out that the next launches can be expected in the summer? .. Or will there again be problems: heat, locusts and dry winds, which prevent rockets and the entire modern space industry? ..

Otherwise, now the text from the DDT repertoire “Autumn, harnessing ships in the sky” has an additional meaning.
Author:
Photos used:
https://www.roscosmos.ru
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  1. Andrey Yuryevich
    Andrey Yuryevich 13 December 2017 06: 40 New
    13
    So, it turns out that the next launches can be expected in the summer? .. Or will there again be problems: heat, locusts and dry winds, which prevent rockets and the entire modern space industry? ..
    can I contact comrade Eun, launch satellites ... maybe he has it inexpensively? and probably do not steal ...repeat
    1. siberalt
      siberalt 13 December 2017 06: 59 New
      +7
      It seems that the commission of Roscosmos has googled conclusions on the Internet. lol They could not think of another manager. The wrong specialist has gone now.
      1. rotmistr60
        rotmistr60 13 December 2017 07: 04 New
        +7
        The wrong specialist has gone now.
        Today, specialists are not held in high esteem on “effective managers” and try not to listen to them. Effective knows what, when and for how much.
        1. Grandfather
          Grandfather 13 December 2017 07: 31 New
          +1
          Quote: siberalt
          It seems that the commission of Roscosmos has googled conclusions on the Internet.

          c'mon .... get out, "gosdepovskie", take all the information on YouTube ... wassat
      2. Alber
        Alber 14 December 2017 06: 55 New
        0
        Quote: siberalt
        It seems that the commission of Roscosmos has googled conclusions on the Internet. lol They could not think of another manager. The wrong specialist has gone now.

        Rogozin personally promptly "prepare a report on who is guilty and put on the table"
    2. Ihrek
      Ihrek 13 December 2017 08: 10 New
      +2
      Quote: Andrew Y.
      and probably do not steal ...

      North Korea has one of the highest levels of corruption.
      1. Andrey Yuryevich
        Andrey Yuryevich 13 December 2017 08: 36 New
        14
        Quote: Ihrek
        Quote: Andrew Y.
        and probably do not steal ...

        North Korea has one of the highest levels of corruption.

        “what is your evidence?” (c) have read the “Kornegi Moscow Center”? - an argument! wassat in the most closed country in the world-information about corruption, to the whole world! aren't you funny yourself? They’re trying to oust the "regime" by all means, you and WADA believe, and Levada to the center ??? tongue
        1. Ihrek
          Ihrek 13 December 2017 08: 41 New
          +5
          Honestly, you cannot particularly trust open sources, most likely my previous comment on this topic is incorrect hi .
          1. Andrey Yuryevich
            Andrey Yuryevich 13 December 2017 09: 19 New
            +4
            Quote: Ihrek
            Honestly, you cannot particularly trust open sources, most likely my previous comment on this topic is incorrect hi .

            I respect ... man. to be able to admit their wrong is worthy of respect. drinks
        2. Dimy4
          Dimy4 13 December 2017 14: 37 New
          0
          "what is your evidence?"

          Rex personally called and reported on the verification.
      2. The comment was deleted.
    3. True
      True 13 December 2017 09: 34 New
      +2
      Quote: Andrew Y.
      can I contact comrade Eun, launch satellites ... maybe he has it inexpensively? Yes, and probably do not steal

      Rumor has it that we buy CNC machines there. This of course says a lot.
      1. Andrey Yuryevich
        Andrey Yuryevich 13 December 2017 09: 40 New
        +1
        Quote: True
        Quote: Andrew Y.
        can I contact comrade Eun, launch satellites ... maybe he has it inexpensively? Yes, and probably do not steal

        Rumor has it that we buy CNC machines there. This of course says a lot.

        hardly, nevertheless, the Chinese help us a lot in this, they have all kinds of technologies (try not to give), but they imposed sanctions on "feng shui". profitable work. I speak as a witness to acquaintances from a state of emergency of an amazing CNC machine made in China wink sanctions state problems zilch.
    4. Buffet
      Buffet 13 December 2017 11: 20 New
      +5
      And is it possible that not only the specialists involved in the calculations cringe from the cold, but also the performance of the processors of the equipment used ?.
      it is immediately clear that the author and like many of those who comment are never electronic engineers. And the answer to your question: may this happen. Because there is a temperature limit of the external environment of the electronics. For the ordinary, this is from -5 to 30-40. For industrial already more. The military is from -50 to + 50 and for the space it is from -70 to + 70 (approximately), and the performance of the electronics itself also affects. This is 1) industrial 2) military 3) space. And since our electronics are all imported, it’s very expensive. Naturally the most expensive, it is a space class. But we have a crisis, and the collapse of the ruble led to the fact that the value of all imports soared 2-3 times. Plus, sanctions against Russia have led to the fact that military and space-class electronics are not delivered directly, but only through 3 countries. Further to continue the idea?
      1. Bumblebee_3
        Bumblebee_3 13 December 2017 12: 00 New
        +3
        SWEDISH_Table Today, 11:20. I, as a specialist electronic engineer, want to ask a question. And in Soviet times, on what components was the electronic filling going for the Unions, Buranov?
        Also bought in 3 countries?
        1. SpaceCom
          SpaceCom 13 December 2017 14: 38 New
          +4
          You will not believe it, but in Soviet times there were practically no digital electronic components on missiles. The pinnacle was Buran's on-board computer (Energy), based on 580-series chips. And after perestroika came ... Soyuz-2 with a digital control system appeared after 2000. And astronauts still fly on the analog Union.
          1. Bumblebee_3
            Bumblebee_3 13 December 2017 22: 04 New
            0
            SpaceCom Today, 14:38. You also won’t believe it, but I know that Soviet missiles flew with analog systems. To my deep, unfortunately, perestroika, begun by Gorbachev, first hit the defense industry. I heard stories about pilots who cried when they cut IL-28. So I also cried when the SS 20 was blown up.
        2. Buffet
          Buffet 13 December 2017 20: 23 New
          0
          I do not pretend to be a specialist electronic engineer. I see what you want me to continue the idea. You probably know that all Soviet military equipment was made with 2-3 by a multiple margin of safety, which means duplicate systems and the entrainment of the weight of both the parts and the systems themselves. The USSR did not think about the cost of launching rockets into space, however, as now, weight plays the most important role at launch. The fight is for every gram to be competitive in the market. And if there is a reduction in weight, it means first of all they save on the margin of safety. They make thinner walls, reduce protection, remove duplicate systems ... I hope you know what radiation is and how it affects electronics? Continue to continue my idea?
          1. Bumblebee_3
            Bumblebee_3 13 December 2017 21: 34 New
            0
            SWEDISH_Table Today, 20:23 Dear, you are a little confused. In the fact that in aviation and astronautics, the struggle goes for every gram - this is known even to a first-year student of a specialized institute. Apparently you have never worked with military representatives. In aviation, everyone works according to the "normals"! No one will ever allow you to set rivets of a different normal than what is provided for in the design. Not a single worker will install a 20 amp fuse if set to 10! And to the detriment of durability, no one will make thinner walls of spars or stringers. In any case, this was the case in Soviet times. I don’t know what is happening now. But about radiation, in space - an old bike.
            1. Buffet
              Buffet 13 December 2017 22: 01 New
              0
              You don’t know, but talk about me. Yes, I do not work with military representatives. But it's not that rivets are of a different normal. And what the customer requires, and how the developer performs it. It’s just that I can judge this on the basis of where I work and how our tasks are carried out in our enterprise and see how the struggle between price and relief is going on. That is, we either make it cheaper or make it easier. As a rule, they choose cheaper, and this in turn means that you need to make candy out of a lump of dirt.
              1. Bumblebee_3
                Bumblebee_3 13 December 2017 22: 30 New
                0
                SWEDISH_Table Today, 22:01 If you are right, I have only one cry - Lord, where are we going! But on the other hand, I am the customer. I need a "golden crown" (this is from the myth of Pythagoras), why the hell they slip me a "gilded" because I paid for the gold!
                1. Buffet
                  Buffet 13 December 2017 23: 22 New
                  0
                  No, you do not understand again. They paid for the "gilded" initially, but they need a "golden" crown. And the performer will be to blame if he does not make the "gold".
                  1. SpaceCom
                    SpaceCom 14 December 2017 05: 29 New
                    0
                    Here I absolutely disagree with you! I don’t know how in other branches, but in the space price initially for the "golden crown" (and of the highest standard). They try to provide quality, but control is often formal. In the case to which the article is devoted, it seems that the quality control of software has just let us down.
                    By the way, I don’t understand that you are attached to microchips? I do not remember a single launch vehicle accident caused by a failure of electronic components.
                    1. Buffet
                      Buffet 14 December 2017 21: 43 New
                      0
                      Is the control formal? That sho ... At the military enterprise there was even a little time?))) We personally and in the tail and mane for quality.
                      1. SpaceCom
                        SpaceCom 18 December 2017 11: 16 New
                        0
                        Still sitting on it! wink And moreover, I know firsthand about the East. So, I don’t know about you, but it’s one thing to control the quality of serial production, and quite another is the quality of unique products. Who except the designer knows all the features? So it turns out that the lot of acceptance is checking the compliance of GOSTs with securities. And so it happened with Frigate. Well, we couldn’t check the operability of the program in the entire data range crying
                  2. Bumblebee_3
                    Bumblebee_3 14 December 2017 06: 31 New
                    0
                    SWEDISH_Table Yesterday, 23:22. It is possible that I did not understand you. But there are things that I cannot understand. Let's look at this situation - I'm a constructor. In order for the unit to work, its details, it is necessary to make a certain steel grade, a certain size, etc. If you went down the path of cheaper, made of low-grade materials, with deviations in size, then how will the unit work? Who needs an assault rifle in which the barrel breaks down a field of 1-2 shots? How can I launch a series of aircraft whose wing or landing gear is weakened? On such things, besides in the defense industry, saving is unacceptable!
                    1. Buffet
                      Buffet 14 December 2017 21: 52 New
                      0
                      Why 1-2 shots? No ... you have a margin of safety 50-70%, and you take and reduce the thickness of a wall or seam, or the number of bolts and puffs. Remove the backup system that weighs ten kilograms. And now you have a margin of safety now 15-20% of strength. And this means that they reduced the cost of the product.
                      1. Bumblebee_3
                        Bumblebee_3 15 December 2017 14: 06 New
                        0
                        Buffet. I understand your idea, but in my opinion is unacceptable. Imagine this option, we will not even touch aviation or space. In order to save money, they did not install a battery on your car (it weighs quite a lot). On the track, you have a generator out of order, or a stalled motor. How will you feel in this situation? Or such an option, the axles of your car are made thinner than required. Are you sure. that you are not afraid of bumps and potholes on the road? If my memory serves me right, then the safety factor in aviation is no more than 1.05-1.10. With a KZP of 50-70%, the plane simply will not take off.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. AA17
        AA17 13 December 2017 12: 31 New
        +5
        Dear, SWEDISH_Table. In your comment I understood. You are an electronic engineer. If your version, used components that do not correspond to the task, is correct, this indicates a deliberate disabling of the spacecraft. "... Each accident has a name, surname and position - said the People's Commissar of Railways Lazar Kaganovich ..."
        1. mulfred
          mulfred 13 December 2017 19: 08 New
          0
          Quote: AA17
          If your version, used components that do not correspond to the task, is correct, this indicates a deliberate disabling of the spacecraft. "... Each accident has a name, surname and position - said the People's Commissar of Railways Lazar Kaganovich ..."

          Purchase of non-standard IC, i.e. not of a space direction, but of a Chinese household there is a CUT OF BUDGETARY FUNDS for directed consumption and ON THE POCKET OF SPECIFIC PERSONS!
        2. Buffet
          Buffet 13 December 2017 20: 27 New
          0
          Yes, what I am an electronic engineer ... so ... I see what the Khibiny and the Himalayas are made of. Electronics from the USA. The cost of one FPGA (microprocessor) from 500 thousand rubles and goes into millions. In general, it’s not intentional deduction, no ... you just have to do something like that. How? Die, make it work. No electronics class Space too expensive? So they will do on military-grade electronics, which is cheaper.
          1. region58
            region58 14 December 2017 01: 24 New
            0
            Quote: SHVEDsky_stol
            I see what the Khibiny and the Himalayas are made of.

            And you do not greatly exaggerate? About the class "Space":
            Angstrom (and Angstrom-T), Zelenograd:
            silicon on sapphire (SPS) is a microcircuit with high radiation resistance.
            Research Institute for System Studies of the Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow:
            radiation resistant microcontrollers. Little information.
            Milander ”, Zelenograd: radiation resistant microprocessors and RAM. Technologies - ring transistors and multi-transistor memory elements. There is no exact data in the public domain, but a chip with such protection methods must withstand a nuclear explosion, not like flying into space.
            SPC "Elvis", Zelenograd: memory chip 1657RU1U (SRAM 4Mbit) indicated - "the total accumulated dose of 330 krad, KTZ 500 krad". By the way, their catalog is publicly available.
            NIISI RAS, Moscow
            The Research Institute for System Research of the Russian Academy of Sciences (NIISI RAS) has the largest experience among Russian developers of processors for space (since 2001) and produces a series of microprocessors with the COMDIV command system.
            5890BE1T (KOMDIV32-S) is a 32-bit microprocessor with an integrated interface controller, 33 MHz, 500 nm SOI technology. Judging by open sources, it has long and successfully flies in spacecraft control systems.
            5890VM1T (KOMDIV-32R) is a 32-bit microprocessor with increased resistance to single failures. 33 MHz, 500 nm SOI, 5890VG1T - two-channel interface controller of the MIL-STD-1553 interface.
            1900ВМ2Т (Reserve-32) is a 32-bit microprocessor with hardware tripling at the level of core components and protection against single failures. Clock frequency 66 MHz, technology 350 nm.
            And so on…
            All NIIIS processors based on SOI technology (silicon on an insulator) have a fully absorbed dose resistance sufficient for space applications, there is no thyristor effect, and special measures have been applied (for all but 5890BE1T) to increase resistance to single failures (codes Hamming in the cache, special SRAM cells, hardware trojaning at the level of component blocks of the processor core).

            You can also recall the Minsk Integral and the enterprises in Voronezh.
            This is briefly. For clarity:
            1. Buffet
              Buffet 14 December 2017 21: 45 New
              0
              And in what I thicken? Even in the aircraft industry, in particular, we sometimes see “Space” class radio elements. And about Elvis. So I’ll tell my boss about IT, laughs from the heart)))) We have ALL (!) FPGAs from the USA) I would really like to see something domestic, but domestic just does not meet the requirements that are presented to FPGAs in our research institute .
              1. region58
                region58 14 December 2017 23: 03 New
                0
                Quote: SHVEDsky_stol
                laughs heartily

                What is the reason for laughing? I am without a banter and without a catch.
                Quote: SHVEDsky_stol
                domestic simply does not meet the requirements that are presented to FPGAs in our research institute.

                Again, the requirements are different. Including those that the more the estimate the more "pinch" you can.
                Quote: SHVEDsky_stol
                We have ALL (!) FPGAs from the USA

                Well, I can’t say specifically about FPGAs, but the product is not one of them. Again, than, for example, the Voronezh do not like? I heard, of course, that the prices for them are inhumane compared to imports, and the quality is also (only with the opposite sign). Only it was a long time ago. But for the military, for example, price has never been a decisive factor.
                And about quality - what, acceptance "9" was canceled?
                1. Buffet
                  Buffet 14 December 2017 23: 11 New
                  0
                  I tell you once again that our FPGAs do not meet the requirements that the developer makes for his products. Starting from the clock frequency, ending with the form factor, performance and size of the chipset. In general, for all the main parameters. Naturally, it can be done on our FPGAs. But if on imported components the board will be the size of a notebook sheet, and a small weight of 200 grams, then on ours it is already the size of A4 and weight under 1kg .... And since there are several such boards and are stacked in blocks, their weight increases many times , up to 10 times.
                  1. region58
                    region58 15 December 2017 00: 44 New
                    0
                    Quote: SHVEDsky_stol
                    our FPGAs do not meet those requirements

                    I do not argue. I don’t know what your requirements are. And I completely agree that hanging on a plane 100kg is much better than a ton. Of course, when compared with
                    Achronix-Xtreme series with a frequency of about 1 GHz, resistant to radiation and designed to operate in a large temperature range - from -260 ° C to + 130 ° C.

                    We have a decent lag. However, it was initially a question of the Frigate overclocking unit, where such computing power did not run into any place ... and the Zelenograd SPS is quite enough for itself using ancient but reliable and proven technology. You understand that all of his maneuvers (Frigate) can be calculated almost on a programmable calculator. What's wrong?
                    Initially, I answered you in your words:
                    Quote: SHVEDsky_stol
                    Electronics from the USA ... ... you just have to do something like that. How? Die, make it work. No electronics class Space too expensive? So they will do on military-grade electronics, which is cheaper.
      4. Alber
        Alber 14 December 2017 06: 07 New
        0
        Quote: SHVEDsky_stol
        There is a temperature limit of the external working environment of the electronics. For the ordinary, this is from -5 to 30-40. For industrial already more. This is from -50 to +50 for the military, and for the space it is from -70 to +70 (approximately),

        - 70 degrees for space will probably not be enough.
        1. Buffet
          Buffet 14 December 2017 21: 46 New
          0
          I speak approximately. There are up to -100.
    5. Lexus
      Lexus 13 December 2017 13: 09 New
      +2
      In times of fuel shortage there were so-called exercises "on the cards" ... Apparently, we entered the era of "virtual" launches. request
  2. sa-ag
    sa-ag 13 December 2017 06: 40 New
    +3
    you didn’t understand anything, it was such a cunning plan for the study of underwater volcanoes, the rocket was for conspiracy :-)
    1. True
      True 13 December 2017 09: 41 New
      +2
      Laugh, laugh.))) The next torpedo with the 19th warhead will open San Andreas at once and wash you off into the ocean. That warning was. We are not animals.
    2. region58
      region58 13 December 2017 10: 39 New
      +2
      Quote: sa-ag
      it was such a cunning plan to study submarine volcanoes

      Exactly for sure. There is also an anchor hanging on the side of a rocket. wassat She hooked them to the vault of heaven ... wassat
  3. cedar
    cedar 13 December 2017 06: 59 New
    +3
    "... Further from the commission of Roscosmos:
    After separation of the booster block, the control system began to issue a control action on the rotation of the orbital block to the required angular position. At the moment of the spatial orientation of the upper stage, the abnormal angular position of the Frigate RB was recorded. As a result, he left the calculated orbit after turning on the marching engines ... "


    If our electronic warfare systems are capable of planting their drones, blinding destroyers, etc., then why can't they?
    They can. What Volodin did not even hint at was that a war was being waged against Russia.
    One day it will become apparent to everyone. BUT .. the sooner it comes, the better.
    The war is on, dear. War.
    1. passing
      passing 13 December 2017 07: 16 New
      +2
      The war is on, dear. War.

      Again, the State Department dropped a rocket? Well then, we are in +, we are the president to them, and they are just stupid and greedy officials who can just drop a rocket.
    2. creak
      creak 13 December 2017 08: 06 New
      +4
      [quote = cedar]If our electronic warfare systems are able to land their drones, blind destroyers, etc., why can not they? [/ quote]
      That's it if ...
  4. zulusuluz
    zulusuluz 13 December 2017 07: 19 New
    +2
    An absurd conclusion. Limit probable rocket rotation angles in advance? I understand that the rotation protection, for some unknown reason, unscrewed the stage so that it was torn apart by centrifugal forces ... Or it managed to bend at an angle from the vertical, preventing the automation and the deflected jet from the engine to align it ...
  5. ImPerts
    ImPerts 13 December 2017 07: 29 New
    +8
    Against the background of such news and analysis, the growth of Comrade Stalin's popularity among the Russian population will be natural.
    A little more and the percentage will be such that a population survey about the attitude to I.V. Stalin will be a question that automatically determines the fifth column among citizens of the Russian Federation,
    1. Andrey Yuryevich
      Andrey Yuryevich 13 December 2017 09: 44 New
      +4
      Quote: ImPerts
      Against the background of such news and analysis, the growth of Comrade Stalin's popularity among the Russian population will be natural.

      if for fun, this surname will appear on the Electoral List ... I will give my vote to him.
    2. creak
      creak 13 December 2017 10: 47 New
      0
      Quote: ImPerts
      defining the fifth column among citizens of the Russian Federation,

      And who will calculate the fifth column? Fourth column or thirdrecourse
      1. ImPerts
        ImPerts 13 December 2017 11: 25 New
        0
        Quote: ranger
        And who will calculate the fifth column?

        Levada Center.
  6. alavrin
    alavrin 13 December 2017 07: 32 New
    +5
    There is only one conclusion: with such "conclusions" satellites and rockets will continue to fall ....
  7. Tatar 174
    Tatar 174 13 December 2017 07: 42 New
    +5
    Or maybe the beginning of everything is in the phrase “There is no money, but you hold on” Yes, even taking into account the nuance, the hidden theft of some of the money, which is already missing. In short, thieves live in the country, live and steal - the main thing for them is to take money into their pocket, and the rest will be covered by insurance. And the prestige of the country? Thieves have no country, the main thing for them is to steal.
    1. Antianglosax
      Antianglosax 13 December 2017 09: 54 New
      +5
      And the main problems are the actual irresponsibility of some against the background of uncontrolled by others.
      Uncontrollability, irresponsibility, impunity!
      So this is the credo and motto of our deceitful thieves! What can I talk about ?!
      1. Akuzenka
        Akuzenka 13 December 2017 15: 14 New
        0
        representatives of which absorb colossal funds from the budget, but a priori are in no way ready to bear personal responsibility.

        And then they hate I.V. Stalin. And he just attracted some "effective managers" to responsibility, personally.
  8. Seraphimamur
    Seraphimamur 13 December 2017 08: 41 New
    +3
    If you start punishing all the schools, then the last specialists will run away, afraid of responsibility. And there are not many new ones who want to take on those salaries of engineers. What effective and less efficient managers will do as they will cut if there are no real products. Therefore, no one will be to blame and we are waiting for the continuation of the satellite fall.
  9. Jurkovs
    Jurkovs 13 December 2017 08: 58 New
    12
    It seems that the time comes for debunking our myths and the time for a truthful look at our space program. Without claiming to be the ultimate truth, I want to note that a mine laid under our cosmonautics in the 60s just exploded. And how many more of these mines. Korolev in fact was never the General Designer. Rather, Fau was tested while the first military missiles and up to seven. When it became clear that instead of seven he made a dual-use rocket, more suitable for civilian purposes than for the military, a scandal erupted. Yangel, being his deputy, wrote a report to the Central Committee, the Queen was removed and Yangel was appointed in his place. But this was not for long, at the top they decided that a separate design bureau was needed for military purposes, Yangel was appointed his chief and Yuzhmash was assigned to him. Korolev returned to his place, but he was no longer responsible for the military space program. But apparently, the Central Committee did not really like the independence of the Korolev in determining strategic goals, and a parallel design bureau was created. So Chelomei from the professor of MVTU becomes another Chief Designer and he was identified TsiH as a plant. And the story of a very difficult relationship between the Royal and Chelomei began. History of envy, memos, interception of cash flows, and so on. Yes, Chelomei created the heptyl Proton, SKIF, Polyus and so on, but the dispersal of forces, assets and personnel in two directions became the main reason for the failure of our lunar program. It was at this time in his design bureau that they decided to count the declination in azimuth counterclockwise, and not clockwise as in Korolev. And since the first interplanetary stations began to be launched on the Proton, then the azimuth in them was counted accordingly. In 1988, the Phobos-Mars accident and, based on its propulsion system in Lavochka, create Frigate (1998) and position it as a universal booster block for all rockets. Each time during launches from Baikonur, simply because of its location, there was no need to cross zero when working out the declination in azimuth. But in Vostochny this arose immediately upon the first launch of the Frigate. As it is now known, it was necessary to further work out the declination in azimuth of 10 degrees, but this is in the Union system. But in the Frigate system, due to the need to go through zero, the automation began to rotate the device not to the left by 10 degrees, but to the right by 350 degrees and just did not manage to do it, because after 30 seconds the propulsion system turned on strictly according to the cyclogram, and the orientation was not yet. Of course, the culprits have already died, and some cleaning lady will answer, and the country will wait for another greeting from the past. Since then, the unhealthy rivalry between Energy / Progress on the one hand and ChiCh on the other hand has to be stopped urgently. I believe that two such powerful corporations are clearly redundant for the country. You just need to close TsiH for all its past and today's sins and create one powerful vertically-oriented corporation based on Progress. In fact, this is already happening. Progress has its own enterprises producing control systems, payloads and upper stages. By the way, the Volga created by them works without accidents, the first launch from Vostochny was carried out with its help. If Progress creates its average overclocking block, it will not depend on anyone already. Considering that Soyuz-5 will also be produced in Samara, the question arises of why do we need the Tsikh with its heptyl Proton and with the defective Hangar.
    1. Glory1974
      Glory1974 13 December 2017 13: 36 New
      +1
      Your opinion is interesting and logically explains everything. But with all this, I think that blaming everything on long-dead people is not right. This is simply a modern trend: either Lenin planted a bomb under the Soviet Union, then the Communists are to blame for the fact that Medvedev and his comrades are "sitting on an oil needle."
      a mine just laid under our cosmonautics in the 60's just exploded.

      Most likely, the incompetence of engineers who did not calculate all the nuances as it should. If so, then I agree.
      Since then, the unhealthy rivalry between Energy / Progress on the one hand and ChiCh on the other hand has to be stopped urgently. I believe that two such powerful corporations are clearly redundant for the country.

      There must be competition. Even in more difficult times, there were competing industries in the USSR and at least two of them could be chosen
    2. Kelwin
      Kelwin 13 December 2017 13: 49 New
      +2
      Quote: Jurkovs
      But in the Frigate system, due to the need to go through zero, the automation began to rotate the device not to the left by 10 degrees, but to the right by 350 degrees and just did not manage to do it, because after 30 seconds the propulsion system turned on strictly according to the cyclogram, and the orientation was not yet.

      In principle, there is nothing impossible in such an explanation, program errors often look stupid, and it is customary to mock “curved hands” in hindsight. The question is different, I stuttered in another thread, but I repeat. And how could it happen that this bug did not crawl out on the simulation, well, since this is not a hardware failure, but a “feature” of the algorithm that cannot pass through zero, then the simulation would be the same as it happened in reality, a turn through "the wrong side" and further ... It turns out one answer, there was no complete simulation of the entire complex, but it is somehow difficult to believe ..
      1. iouris
        iouris 13 December 2017 23: 58 New
        0
        Or maybe they just bought "components" or algorithms "abroad", and there is a different orientation of the axes of the navigation coordinate system: the Z axis is directed down, not up, or is it a "new domestic development": they took and copied so that it was "like theirs" ", only 0,5 meters longer. Everything can be. And the report .... They believe that the "elite" is not obliged to anyone.
    3. Akuzenka
      Akuzenka 13 December 2017 15: 17 New
      0
      It’s strange. And why then, not one manned flight was purely civilian? And when there were civilian experts, it’s worth scratching, then it turns out to be “civilian”. There was no "civilian" and "military" space. The space program was uniform, not only military objectives were set, but civilians were not forgotten.
  10. Conductor
    Conductor 13 December 2017 10: 07 New
    +1
    Quote: siberalt
    It seems that the commission of Roscosmos has googled conclusions on the Internet. lol They could not think of another manager. The wrong specialist has gone now.

    Specialists are not in short supply, but cheek inflators simply breed like cockroaches.
  11. Altona
    Altona 13 December 2017 10: 34 New
    0
    Quote: sa-ag
    you didn’t understand anything, it was such a cunning plan for the study of underwater volcanoes, the rocket was for conspiracy :-)

    -----------------------------
    We seem to remember about 59 American Tomahawks at the Syrian airfield Shairat, 36 of which flew away to nowhere. And launches Falcon-9, whose vaunted "reusability" has not yet shown itself, or rather, the "payback" of launches was only 10% of the expected.
  12. Altona
    Altona 13 December 2017 10: 39 New
    0
    The president spoke about world-class salaries for specialists, so apparently the rocket designer has about 13000 rubles.
  13. Siberia 9444
    Siberia 9444 13 December 2017 11: 25 New
    +2
    Insured, burned, received money hi
  14. 1536
    1536 13 December 2017 13: 13 New
    0
    In the space industry, there is no real organizer capable of setting things up. All are left to their own devices, do something, start something, but there is no single system from the “machine to the orbit”. This did not happen yesterday, but in the late USSR, at about the time the Energy-Buran program was destroyed. Since then, our astronautics have struggled to be useful to the USA and NASA, our astronauts began to be inspired by the flights of Americans to the moon (of course, there’s nothing wrong with that, but you need to know where to talk about it, and where it’s better to keep silent and pass for clever), and the leadership became proud of the role of "taxi drivers" assigned to them by NASA. Thus, the Americans saved many billions of USD by directing them to promising solutions in space flights, having overtaken our years at once with 20-30. This state of affairs suits everyone except our people, who dream of flying to space, exploring the moon, Mars, interplanetary stations, and exploring other planets with their help. Only this can not be understood in the government, stating that first let scientific organizations start making money, and then we'll see what to do with them.
  15. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 13 December 2017 13: 48 New
    +2
    The collapse was caused by the unpredictable behavior of the Fregat upper stage after it had separated from the launch vehicle. This revealed a hidden problem in the algorithm, which was not manifested for decades of successful launches of the Soyuz-Fregat ligament.

    They would write easier:
    Spawn this did not happen, and again the same thing.
    ©
  16. Curious
    Curious 13 December 2017 15: 24 New
    0
    Of course, I am not an expert, but the reasons are perceived as a highly artistic whistle. I would like comments from experts.
    What abnormal position of the overclocking unit is in question, if this position should be provided by the orientation system.
    The control system for the upper stage solves the problem of launching the spacecraft as a material point to the specified parameters of the target orbit and the orientation of the RB as a material body, taking into account the elasticity of the structure and fluid oscillations in active and passive areas of motion. SU RB is an autonomous inertial control system, that is, it does not use external information and is based on the use of a gyro-stabilized platform (GSP). All control algorithms are implemented in an on-board digital computer (BCM).
    How the whole season is affected by the whole process - obviously, only the highly consecrated know. Maybe the wind moved the starting position, than changed the values ​​of the initial vector?
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 13 December 2017 15: 52 New
      +2
      Quote: Curious
      How the whole season is affected by the whole process - obviously, only the highly consecrated know. Maybe the wind moved the starting position, than changed the values ​​of the initial vector?

      Just a hole in the firmament above the East opens only in the summer. And in winter it is closed and sealed - so as not to blow.
  17. Ilya77
    Ilya77 13 December 2017 15: 59 New
    +1
    Assistant to President Belousov: Roscosmos should be profitable.

    At the conference “Space as a Business”, the assistant to the president of Russia and the former head of the Ministry of Economic Development Andrei Belousov called the work of Roskosmos ineffective and called on the corporation to restructure its business model. “This huge mass of people can never make money. This is normal? Now, if it is so simple to say what “Roskosmos” is today, ”noted Belousov. You can read more about the statement of the presidential aide in the Vedomosti: https://www.vedomosti.ru/business/articles/2017/1
    2 / 12 ..

    I get the feeling that Mr. Belousov, in principle, has little understanding of what he is talking about. Firstly, according to him, 200 thousand people work in Roskosmos. This is not true. Approximately this number of people is on the staff of all enterprises in the rocket and space industry. But only a few hundred people work in Roscosmos itself.

    Secondly, the demand for profitability sounds simply pointless. Space agencies in no country in the world bring direct profit to the state, because this is not the purpose of their existence. From NASA, the US state budget receives $ 0 at a cost of about $ 19 billion a year. This money is an investment in the development of science and the rocket and space industry as a whole. In some form, they will return in the future in the form of tax revenues and in the form of new technologies that will be used in industry (and, again, increase tax revenues), but there is no direct profit from NASA. Equally well, the Ministry of Education or Health could be blamed for the lack of profit.

    This misunderstanding of the functions of the state has become typical of Russian officials in the past 15 years. In their understanding, the purpose of the existence of all institutions of the state and, in fact, of the state itself is to make money. Any fundamental scientific research and long-term investments without a specific plan for returning investments within the framework of this paradigm do not make sense.

    Erroneous interpretation of the situation by Belousov is also connected with the fact that the form of organization of Roscosmos - the state corporation - does not correspond to the tasks facing the Russian cosmonautics. And they are similar to the tasks of the space industry in all countries of the world. This is the conduct of basic scientific research, increasing industry efficiency and increasing demand for space technology and services from the private business. The latter should lead to a decrease in the financial burden on the state and, ultimately, remove the industry from the state of monopolization of the demand market by the state.
  18. mulfred
    mulfred 13 December 2017 16: 03 New
    +1
    I specially registered on the resource in order to leave my opinion - this person should not write articles on topics in which he does not understand the word at all. If only I would consult with someone to know more, is working or has worked in this area. Who cares about the opinion of a person working in this field (astronautics), here is an article-analysis of the reasons - https://geektimes.ru/post/296395/.
    1. Curious
      Curious 13 December 2017 17: 45 New
      +2
      Based on the article you proposed, the cause of the accident is irresponsibility, which is correctly indicated in the article by the highly scientific turnover about the absence of “integration testing” in the preparation process.
  19. Steelmaker
    Steelmaker 13 December 2017 18: 09 New
    +2
    I myself work at the "enterprise" and I know how much official comments have and what really happened. Unfortunately, everything is like everywhere else, people are considered to be idiots, a couple of three on-duty phrases, they will dismiss the initial shift, the engineer from where, well, the technicals to the heap. Clear Sun report that they say, found and punished !! Do not repeat again! Everywhere the same thing! And of course, the statement is staggering that there is nothing to worry about; EVERYTHING IS INSURED !! Interestingly BMW would have their own name today, if guided by such principles ??? And yet, it’s very interesting how the report would look in that Great Country; “Joseph Vissarionovich, the launch of the rocket did not go standard, because the launch pad was staggering and it was generally cold! Excuse us, and give me another three trillion, we really won’t steal more!
    Honestly
  20. turbris
    turbris 13 December 2017 19: 12 New
    +1
    These conclusions are reminiscent of an elementary excuse, unpredictable understand the behavior, and how many times this overclocking unit led to accidents, do not remind? It is time to predict the behavior of the upper stage in all possible events - something is not sticking in this kingdom, the military are clearly launching satellites, and these? Maybe it’s time already to unpredictably start unscrewing some of the bosses so that everything turns out predictably in the future?
  21. groks
    groks 13 December 2017 20: 08 New
    0
    Well, in general - some kind of vague wording is traditionally given. The balance between the disclosure of state secrets and freedom of information. This is kind of normal. The proposed version is understandable - a random coincidence of the parameters - the inclination of the earth's axis, ... it's hard not to fall into a jerk. This may mean that the program was not tested for specific conditions, it was stupidly adapted from Baikanur, etc. . But this is an even better option. They saw it, and even the enemy’s software bookmark worked. The worst will mean that under certain conditions, launching from this cosmodrome is generally impossible. Due to the impossibility of iron to cope with the correction of the trajectory. Those. no stock management. Really? Yes, it is quite. Probably, yes, even for sure you can deal with this. Only the costs will be significantly greater than in the optimistic version with idiots and cutters. The report pushes us to the first option. But how true he is ....
    Yes - summer launches here are usually not in the Atlantic, but in Altai. But horseradish radish is not sweeter.
  22. mulfred
    mulfred 13 December 2017 23: 50 New
    +1
    Quote: Curious
    Based on the article you proposed, the cause of the accident is irresponsibility, which is correctly indicated in the article by the highly scientific turnover about the absence of “integration testing” in the preparation process.


    Understand correctly, I’m not going to block off any of the responsible persons, the main idea of ​​my post is, if I may say so, an “analytical” article on topwar, it does nothing good, but rather harms. Either you don’t write an analyst about what you don’t understand anything, or you must be responsible for your “creativity” by the same rigor that you are going to ask from others (in this case, from Roskosmos), because many people, having read it, will draw the wrong conclusions and it won’t be better for everyone from this (quote: - It seems that the Roskosmos commission has googled conclusions on the Internet - as an example).
    On the issue of simulating a launch on a computer before a real launch - last September, the Falcon 9 rocket exploded on the launch pad during a test before launch. This seriously damaged the reputation of the launch company - Space X. They spent a lot of time and effort to figure out the reason, and this is strange, there was also a rare combination of parameters, but for some reason no one shouted - this is an excuse, drank, etc. Conclusions were drawn, corrections were made to the design and verification procedures. I have no information that someone in that case was put to the wall, and a company such as Space X clearly did the computer simulation. Conclusion - not everything can be calculated on the simulator (this does not mean that you should not try), and not all rare circumstances are an attempt to otmazatsya. In addition, the commission’s findings are an indication of specific reasons; it should not look for those responsible, they are sought by another commission or officials.
    1. Curious
      Curious 14 December 2017 00: 36 New
      0
      "One must either not write an analyst about what you understand nothing of ..."
      Well, then how many articles will remain on the site if your selection criteria is put in place?
      1. mulfred
        mulfred 14 December 2017 11: 27 New
        +1
        Compared to the current moment, it’s much less, but if at the same time quality improves, I personally am for it.
  23. Olezhek
    Olezhek 14 December 2017 08: 56 New
    +2
    The general cause of the crisis in the space industry is quite banal:
    Frames there are no longer the best. If something in the USSR space was first secret, secondly prestigious, and thirdly all this was very well paid (by Soviet standards).
    That is, the USSR had cool technical specialists (education system) and in the space industry they recruited the best of the best.
    That is, it was the elite of elites.
    Trying to work in this area using "middling" is detrimental initially.
    We were inferior to the Americans in many respects (financing, equipment), but our special feature was the use of those very "bright heads"
    Today, the work there is not very prestigious and does not pay much, and in general, being an engineer is not very popular today.
    Hence the inevitable failures. Inevitable.
    Our space program will not be able to work on the "middling".
  24. Dooplet11
    Dooplet11 14 December 2017 14: 50 New
    0
    Two big differences. This launch and launch of the 1987 year. : https: //topwar.ru/4817-skif-boevaya-lazernaya-st
    anciya.html
    This spent pH, that’s new.
    This "off-season", that:
    "Actually, the Energia-Skif-DM complex was only ready to launch at the end of April. All this time, from the beginning of February, the rocket with the device stood on the launching device. Skif-DM was completely filled with fuel, inflated with compressed gases and loaded with airborne sources During these three and a half months, he had to endure the most extreme climatic conditions: temperature from -27 to + 30 degrees, blizzard, wet snow, rain, fog and dust storms. "
    And the results of the launches are the opposite.
  25. proletarian
    proletarian 14 December 2017 23: 46 New
    0
    So the author asked a question: How did Soviet specialists manage to contrive and regularly launch the first artificial Earth satellite in October? Really, the October dank weather did not influence their then computing tools, and the launch pad in the course of calculations didn’t heap anywhere with respect to the bearing azimuth.
    Answer: They calculated all the parameters using logarithmic rulers (if today anyone remembers what it is).
  26. Sinbad
    Sinbad 17 December 2017 13: 11 New
    0
    It seems that to investigate the activities of this commission, it is necessary to appoint a new commission from the relevant "bodies".