Military Review

SU-122 vs. “Ferdinand”: Achilles' Heel of German Armor

75



Usually, the memories of veterans of the battles with the German heavy self-propelled guns "Ferdinand" can be quite skeptical. It is well known that during our war and for many decades after its termination all the heavy German self-propelled guns were called Ferdinands.

Probably the reason for this is the extremely strong impression made by the formidable creations of designer Ferdinand Porsche, first used in the battle of Kursk. So after that we began to call any German heavy self-propelled guns "Ferdinands". Sometimes for some reason they wrote that Ferdinands were allegedly named after the Bulgarian king, Ferdinand. And here the Bulgarian king?

Help

"Ferdinand" (German: Ferdinand) - German heavy self-propelled artillery installation of the period of the Second World War of the class of fighters tanks. Also called the "Elephant" (German: Elefant - elephant). This combat vehicle, armed with an 88-mm cannon, is one of the most heavily armed and powerfully armored representatives of German armored vehicles of that period. The “Ferdinand” battlehouse was assembled from sheets of cemented “marine” armor (transferred from marine stocks fleet) Since the thickness of this armor was significant (200 mm in the frontal part and 85 mm in the sides and stern), a “spike” connection was used to securely connect the sheets, reinforced with keys in critical places. Such a connection, after installing the dowels in place, was made indivisible and its welding was carried out mainly for the purpose of sealing than the power joint. To increase the projectile resistance, the side and aft armor plates of the deckhouse were installed with some inclination. Moreover, their thickness made the self-propelled guns practically invulnerable to the fire of all Soviet tank and anti-tank artillery of 1943 at a range of over 400 m.

Vasily Krysov is one of those who had a chance to fight with the real “Ferdinands”. In the battles he described in his memoirs at Ponyri station in July 1943, the Germans actually engaged the Fernands' 654 battalion, many of which became trophies of the Red Army and were studied and described in detail.

Met "Ferdinand" Krysov, being the commander of a platoon of SU-122. His 1454 th SAP - self-propelled - artillery regiment, entered into operational subordination to the commander of the 129 th tank brigade Colonel Petrushin. The brigade mostly consisted of T-70 tanks with 45-mm guns, with all the resulting sad consequences for the crews ...

I had a cold sweat

The first meeting with Ferdinand was remembered forever:

“The offensive has begun! Through the commander’s panorama, I examined the front of the brigade’s defense — and I saw enemy military equipment everywhere! In the first echelon, crawling out of the bushes framing the origins of the Oka and Neruchi, tanks slowly moved, followed by assault guns and motorized infantry on armored personnel carriers. They moved with a wedge, as in the old days the Crusaders, and led by all signs, were “Ferdinands”, protected by 200-mm armor, thought: today we will have more difficulty, it will be hard to repel such a powerful attack ...

In the morning rays of the sun, we could clearly see among the various enemy tanks rectangular hulls and vertical armored “tigers”, their characteristic brown-yellow camouflage. In the direction of our platoon the hulk moved too, with a big gun having a muzzle brake, the tower of this monster did not rotate - we understood that it was “Ferdinand”. A cold sweat came out - what I was afraid of was what happened! How to deal with it? What to do?! And there is no time for reflection, the command for defeat is about to come! Stop! Stop! There is a solution! And send my commands to the gunners of the platoon:
- Korolev, how to give a command, hit the right track! Kuzin, you will strike on the left! ... There were already about six hundred meters before the enemy tanks, when the command finally followed from the command post of the regiment. The gun was already loaded, and Valery, specifying the tip, pressed the shutter lever, shouting as it should be:
- Shot!
Everybody watched with tension — where would the projectile fall? The shell exploded on the right side of the frontal armor! Well done! But "Ferdinand" continued to go like nothing had happened!
- Valery, strike down the caterpillar when it rises!
Only from the third projectile Korolev broke the caterpillar. On one caterpillar, the Ferdinand went slower and with a deviation to the left, but didn’t manage to walk even a few tens of meters, when Lesha Kuzin from the crew of Levanov interrupted the second caterpillar! And already on the standing “Ferdinand” both crews fired three more shots. Five of the six shells hit the tower, and so stunned the crew that the Germans, jumping out of the tower, held their heads with both hands.

Suddenly one of the “Ferdinands”, advancing in the center of the battle formation, stopped and spun in place. We realized that an anti-tank mine or a landmine had worked. Two more tanks were blown up by mines. But the rest continued unabated. Crews of enemy tanks frantically beat out of guns and machine guns on trenches and trenches of infantry, each “panther” gushed so much from three machine guns that our soldiers could not only shoot, even stick their heads out of shelters! And for the tanks with several chains, infantry were advancing, firing at our trenches in long bursts of machine guns and machine guns. The closer the enemy approached, the stronger the enemy artillery beat on our positions. From the ruptures of heavy shells, mines dodged and hesitated the earth, we, together with the self-propelled gun, threw up, then flooded the ground, which is why we did not see each other and became blind in shooting, we had to go outside to go out and clean our instruments. One projectile, which exploded near the tower itself, lit up the whole self-propelled gun so much that it was decided - everything! we burn! But this did not cause any confusion among the crew, Plaksin and Beschemetnov seized fire extinguishers and then they saw that the Levanites and the battalion commander set fire to each one on the tank - my faces literally brightened! ”

The main thing - do not cause panic

It may seem strange - how did this platoon commander know about Ferdinand and he was afraid in advance. But earlier, Krysov wrote about the preparations for the battle: “The regimental headquarters already had some tactical and technical data on new German tanks and assault guns, but we were not told about these data then: it was forbidden to bring this kind of information to personnel so as not to undermine the moral the spirit of the crews. But when instructions were given to combat enemy tanks, in which the red arrows indicated their vulnerabilities, we realized that our 122-mm howitzers had frontal armor of all these “animals”, except for “nashorn” (10 – 30 mm armor) , does not break through. "

The prohibition to bring to the personnel of the TTD new German cars in order to avoid undermining the morale, of course, “admires”. Especially against the background of the instructions with drawings, from which the tank crews understood the power of the frontal armor of the new German “beasts”.
But it must be admitted that the new German armored vehicles for the soldiers and officers of the Red Army did not become “out of the blue”, the enemy’s very unpleasant technical “surprises” were expected. Researcher stories Mikhail Svirin wrote about this: “Information about the presence of“ Ferdinands ”in the German army, our intelligence received, probably, in March 1943. The first mention of them is found in the review of new types of German tanks and assault guns sent to the Central Aviation Design Bureau (Central Artillery The Design Bureau) of the 11 Arms Commissariat of April 1943. It said, in particular: “... soon the German army is expected to receive the new assault gun of the Ferdinand system with a 88-105 mm caliber gun and 120-140 mm armor and more ... ". The review was accompanied by two drawings of the car, rather approximately similar to the original. At the same time, TsACB was assigned the task of designing an instrument with a caliber 85-100 mm. capable of spacing 1000-500 m to penetrate armor 120-140 mm thick. According to intelligence reports, the appearance of a new assault gun was expected during the upcoming summer campaign. ”

What psychological shock could a sudden appearance of “Ferdinands” accompanied by “Tigers” and “Panthers” cause to Soviet soldiers and officers, if not for the success of intelligence?

Are they allowed to leave wrecked tanks?

A curious observation during the battle was made by Krysov and his subordinate Oleinik regarding the behavior of German tankers after getting into a tank:
“- Comrade Lieutenant, are they allowed to leave the wrecked tanks? - questioned Oleinik, who saw through triplex, as the Germans jumped out of the tower.
- I do not know, Vitya, but if they leave, it means that it is allowed.

His surprise was understandable, our tank was left only if it caught fire or was so smashed that it could neither shoot, nor move, - then, cautiously, they left the car, otherwise they might attribute it to cowardice. Here, a lot of things worked, some did not abandon in their patriotism, remained to the last, and some because of fear of consequences. But, as a rule, with us, if the tank does not catch fire, it can fire — it must fire. But the Germans were throwing their own, even when the tank did not catch fire, only hit it hard. Our technique was valued higher than people, so we were brought up. ”

German attacks continued: “The Germans set fire to three more light tanks of the brigade and one T-34, and one self-propelled regiment burned down. But three enemy tanks were also burning. Now Ferdinands have come to the fore of the wedge. Despite accurate hits in the forehead of our shells, they continued to advance without stopping, approaching the front line. ”

The victory of the crew foremen Zavyalov and help sheep dogs

The Germans did not let up: “The intensity of the battle on the main line was growing. Ferdinands were particularly stressed, the impenetrability of these monsters was beginning to cause a shiver. Finally, the crew of the foreman Zavyalov managed to first smash the caterpillar, and then with a blow to the board and set fire to the head gun. This cooled the fervor of all enemy crews, and the rate of advance decreased markedly. But the powerful tank avalanche, as before, pressed against our defense with its wedge, the forces of the defenders were already at the limit, and the Germans were pushing more and more new tanks from the second, third echelon instead of destroyed and burned tanks. ”

Here, a completely unexpected help came to the Soviet self-propelled gunners and tankers: “At this, probably the most difficult turning point of the battle, we saw a large black-clad (wool coat –M.K) sheep-dog with a load and a pin on its back ran past us to meet enemy tanks ... After the battle, we learned that ten dogs specially trained to explode tanks were started in our direction, and everyone worked efficiently - they destroyed 10 tanks. The destruction of tanks by dogs brought down the offensive impulse of the Germans, but they did not want to put up with it, they continued to fight decisively and aggressively. A fierce battle took place for half an hour, and finally, not having achieved success, the Germans were forced to retreat to their original positions. ”

Most of the "Ferdinands" was found on a minefield

The question arises - if Vasily Krysov in his SU-122 “Ferdinands” seemed to be “impenetrable monsters”, then what exactly did the T-70 crews with their 45-mm cannons and shaky armor have to think about them?

It should be noted that his description of the battles with the “Ferdinands” correlates well with the data obtained after studying the battlefield.
Mikhail Svirin wrote about this: “July 15 was padded and destroyed at Art. Ponyri German technology was studied by representatives of the Art Department and the NIBT Polygon. Total on the battlefield northeast of Art. Ponyri remained 21 assault gun "Ferdinand" ... Most of the "Ferdinands" was found on a minefield filled with land mines from captured large-caliber projectiles and bombs, more than half of the vehicles had damage to the undercarriage (broken caterpillars, destroyed support rollers) of mines. Five cars had damage to the undercarriage caused by hitting 76-caliber shells and more. The two “Ferdinands” were disarmed because of the lancing of their guns with Soviet shells and anti-tank rifle bullets. One car was destroyed by a direct hit of an aerial bomb from a Petlyakov bomber and one by a 203-mm projectile hit the roof of a combat compartment. Only one “Ferdinand” had a hole in the port side, made by 76-mm armor-piercing projectile (7 T-34 tanks and 76-mm battery of divisional guns fired at it from all directions from the 200-400 m distance), and only one Ferdinand, not having damage to the hull and chassis, was set on fire by a bottle of KS, abandoned by infantrymen. Part of the “Ferdinands”, who lost their mobility, were set on fire or blown up by their crews during the Soviet counterattack. The same vehicles whose crews resisted the Soviet infantry were set on fire by the CS bottles. ”(The CS Incendiary Fluid is a type of incendiary fluid used in flamethrowers, incendiary ampoules and Molotov cocktails of the Soviet Union from 1941 to 1945 of the year. It was characterized by a high burning temperature, manufacturability and sticking to the surface).

Fatal mistake made the German command, throwing "Ferdinand" in a minefield. And the Soviet self-propelled gunners, tankers and gunners, who quickly guessed that they should hit the Ferdinand to the chassis, found the Achilles heel of a formidable enemy.
No matter how you book a car, its tracks and track rollers remained vulnerable to mines and shells. And no 200-mm frontal armor will not help, if the tracks are broken, it will not save from the Red Army CS bottle. Or from the need for the Germans themselves to blow up their car, which they do not have time to repair or evacuate when leaving ...
Author:
Originator:
https://vpk-news.ru/articles/40222
75 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. Anyone
    Anyone 9 December 2017 15: 42
    +9
    Since the thickness of this armor was significant (200 mm in the frontal part and 85 mm in the sides and stern), a thorn connection was used to reliably connect the sheets

    Not because of the thickness of the armor, the sheets were cut out and gathered "in a thorn". In Germany and the Pz-VI, having armor twice thinner than this self-propelled gun, was assembled using the same technology. We did use armored castings of complex geometric shape with might and main. For example, towers of tanks.
    1. IL-18
      IL-18 10 December 2017 12: 49
      +3
      Since 1942, press stamping has been used (T-34 both. 1942)
      1. sibiryouk
        sibiryouk 10 December 2017 17: 14
        +6
        Stamping was used only at UZTM - there was an import press with an effort of 10000 tons.
        1. Sergey Pavlovich
          Sergey Pavlovich April 10 2018 03: 24
          0
          2 powerful presses were received from ... Germany under the "Trade Agreement" just a couple of years before the Second World War.
          In those days, such presses were made ONLY in the USA and Germany - so when they asked for a similar press from the USA (because "pressing" was more technologically advanced and most importantly faster than casting and welding - so the "allies" categorically refused.
    2. ufpb
      ufpb 10 December 2017 18: 28
      +2
      what casting? The Germans thought so. Submerged arc welding (Paton) - that's all simple.
      1. AUL
        AUL 10 December 2017 19: 31
        +1
        "Ferdinand" (German: Ferdinand) - German heavy self-propelled artillery installation of the period of World War II class of tank destroyers. Also called the "Elephant" (German: Elefant - elephant). This combat vehicle, armed with an 88-mm cannon, is one of the most heavily armed and powerfully armored representatives of German armored vehicles of that period.
        If not mistaken, Ferdinand and Elephant are different cars. The Elephant was lighter, with lighter reservations and a 75mm gun. But outwardly very similar, only Elephant had a shield installed in front of the gun’s mask.
        1. Nehist
          Nehist 10 December 2017 23: 29
          +7
          You are mistaken, they differed only in the presence of a machine gun which they set after the Battle of Kursk. Here, by the way, in the article, it was said that a lot of the burned-out cops in Ferdinand initially lacked small arms to protect against infantry. And the modernized one was present here and they called him Elephant and secured the steel shield in another way
          1. AUL
            AUL 11 December 2017 16: 02
            +2
            1. Ferdinand did not have a visor on the barrel in front of the mask.
            2. Ferdinand has a gun 88, Elephant 75.
            1. Walking
              Walking 11 December 2017 17: 44
              +7
              Quote: AUL
              1. Ferdinand did not have a visor on the barrel in front of the mask.
              2. Ferdinand has a gun 88, Elephant 75.


              Learn the materiel. Ferdinand and Elephant are the same car.
              1. AUL
                AUL 12 December 2017 18: 39
                0
                What about my arguments? To refute is not fate?
                1. netslave
                  netslave 14 December 2017 10: 45
                  +4
                  Go read the literature. And then delete your comments so as not to disgrace.
        2. Captain Pushkin
          Captain Pushkin 28 March 2018 15: 39
          0
          Elephant is the official name, Ferdinand is a military argo; in our memoirs, any German self-propelled gun was called Ferdinand.
        3. yehat
          yehat 5 May 2018 17: 18
          0
          after the Kursk arc, the Germans saw that ferdinand lacked anti-personnel weapons
          and drove a machine gun, and the result was called an elephant.
          where do you get your myths from?
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 11 December 2017 12: 49
        +2
        Quote: ufpb
        what casting? The Germans thought so. Submerged arc welding (Paton) - that's all simple.

        Conventional casting is the same frontal part on an IS or T-34 tower.

        The fact is that with the outbreak of war, rolled armor became a shortage. There was even a GKO decree on saving rental. It was the lack of rental that put an end to the same shielding plans for the T-34. The biggest ambush was with rolled armor thicker than 45 mm.
        That is why cast armor was widely used in the USSR. The same new heavy tank - IS - was designed with the maximum use of cast armor. And then they redid it when it turned out that the protection in the frontal projection was insufficient (and when the armor crisis was overcome).
  2. DesToeR
    DesToeR 9 December 2017 16: 02
    10
    Quote: Anyone
    In Germany and the Pz-VI, having armor twice thinner than this self-propelled gun, was assembled using the same technology.

    The Tiger hull on the forehead and sides had the same thickness of armor as Ferdinind: 105mm and 82mm, respectively. 200 mm in the forehead of self-propelled guns was achieved by shielding with an additional sheet 100 mm thick. The exception is the forehead cutting - there is a 200mm sheet.

    And one more photo "in restyling":
    1. SASHA OLD
      SASHA OLD April 3 2018 17: 13
      +2
      just not “shielding” but just a thickening: there is not even a minimum gap between the sheets
  3. Vadim Kurbatov
    Vadim Kurbatov 9 December 2017 16: 10
    +8
    Sau purely for defense and not attack, not even having machine guns with a damaged chassis became a very easy target for both tanks and infantry
    1. Monarchist
      Monarchist 9 December 2017 17: 01
      +2
      Naturally, what can she do if there is no move? Neither remove nor move.
      1. Vadim Kurbatov
        Vadim Kurbatov 9 December 2017 19: 11
        +1
        Therefore, he wrote that the self-propelled guns are purely for defense there, at least somehow lucky, and the tear can give backward cover for his departure
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 11 December 2017 12: 56
      +7
      Quote: Vadim Kurbatov
      Sau purely for defense and not attack

      Not certainly in that way. Ferdinand was a tank destroyer. These self-propelled guns were supposed to go in the second line, where the infantry had already been cleaned up with tanks and infantry of the first line, and shoot the enemy armored vehicles.
      And they, seduced by the thickness of the armor, decided to use as assault self-propelled guns to break through the defense. The end is a bit predictable.. smile
  4. creak
    creak 9 December 2017 16: 28
    +9
    It should also be noted that Ferdinand did not play any significant role after the Battle of Kursk - in all, no more than 90 of them were released. - Moreover, after some time, the surviving self-propelled guns were transferred and Italy and more were not used in hostilities on the Eastern Front ...
    1. Conductor
      Conductor 10 December 2017 01: 05
      +1
      According to various sources, from 76 to 123 units, why I do not know such a discrepancy.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 11 December 2017 13: 25
        +6
        Quote: Conductor
        According to various sources, from 76 to 123 units, why I do not know such a discrepancy.

        123 is obviously overkill. smile
        Ferdinands are the illegitimate children of the heavy tank contest. Then, to reduce the time of putting a new tank into production, two competing firms - Porsche and Henschel - were given orders immediately for 3 experimental vehicles and 100 pre-production ones.
        In July 1941, Henschel received a contract for the assembly of three VK4501 (H) prototypes and 100 production tanks.
        In July 1941, Porsche received an order for the manufacture of 100 serial tanks VK4501 (P).

        He won, as you know, “Henschel” with his “tiger”. And they decided to remake the chassis of the Porsche tank into self-propelled guns - a standard solution for a German pilot who did not go into production.
    2. sibiryouk
      sibiryouk 10 December 2017 17: 19
      +3
      There were 89 self-propelled guns in the 653rd and 654th battalions, another 1 machine at the training ground in Kunersdorf and 1 at the factory. After Italy, the remaining self-propelled guns operated in Poland, on the Eastern Front.
    3. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 11 December 2017 13: 16
      +3
      Quote: ranger
      Moreover, after some time, the surviving self-propelled guns were transferred to Italy and more were not used in hostilities on the Eastern Front ...

      This is outdated data. Only one company of the 653rd battalion left for Italy. And on the Eastern Front, “Fedi” fought against Nikopol and Ternopol.
    4. yehat
      yehat 5 May 2018 17: 21
      0
      played. the remnants showed themselves well in Europe, in Hungary on the banks of the Danube definitely caused a lot of trouble ..
  5. DesToeR
    DesToeR 9 December 2017 16: 55
    +8
    Quote: ranger
    It should also be noted that Ferdinand did not play any significant role after the Battle of Kursk - in all, no more than 90 of them were released. - Moreover, after some time, the surviving self-propelled guns were transferred and Italy and more were not used in hostilities on the Eastern Front ...

    Used in 1944. in Ukraine, where once again received bribes. The machine guns installed in the front sheets of the self-propelled gun cases did not help either. How not to “tune” a bad weapon and it will remain bad ...
    1. Vadim Kurbatov
      Vadim Kurbatov 9 December 2017 19: 18
      +4
      the technique is good, but the tactics of its use are shitty.
  6. faiver
    faiver 9 December 2017 19: 23
    10
    all would be fine, but the phrases about the German infantry chain watering our trenches with machine guns and machine guns from a distance of half a kilometer suggest thoughts of fiction ... hi
    1. mirag2
      mirag2 11 December 2017 22: 42
      +3
      It seems that not infantry chains were watered, but "panthers" each of their own 3 machine guns. So in the text. From memory. Pardon was too lazy to search, copy and paste.
      1. faiver
        faiver 12 December 2017 05: 42
        +2
        offer immediately after the mention of the panthers
  7. DesToeR
    DesToeR 9 December 2017 19: 27
    +6
    Quote: Vadim Kurbatov
    the technique is good, but the tactics of its use are shitty.

    Well yes. As always, people are to blame ... And what tactics are good for a 70 ton machine with 200 mm in the forehead? A stillborn Frankenstein with armor from a cruiser, a gun from Nashorn and a running under-tiger.
    1. Vadim Kurbatov
      Vadim Kurbatov 9 December 2017 19: 31
      +4
      The tactics of using such self-propelled guns are defensive current and not for attack
      1. hound
        hound 9 December 2017 19: 47
        +7
        Just for the attack, it was quite suitable for itself, it was foolishness to let them in the front ranks - they smashed the chassis and hi - because of the limited pickup angles, a combat unit cannot lead a battle from the word at all. But if they worked from the second line for the revealed goals, then it is not a fact how everything would have turned.
        1. Vadim Kurbatov
          Vadim Kurbatov 9 December 2017 20: 24
          +2
          I would not say anyway, no one canceled the bombing, but for the time being they do not need to be evacuated, it is necessary to fight off the infantry, which strives to burn the tank
        2. Grafova Irina
          Grafova Irina 10 December 2017 23: 54
          +2
          Approximately true
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 11 December 2017 14: 05
        +7
        Quote: Vadim Kurbatov
        The tactics of using such self-propelled guns are defensive current and not for attack

        For the "defensive tactics" the Germans had a "Horniss / Naskhorn". The same gun, but m, hjyz are an order of magnitude thinner and the mass is almost the second less. For the Custodian ... ambush tactics and defense work is what you need.
        But for an attack you need only a gun, but also armor. Because it will not be possible to sit out - you need to go forward under the fire of anti-tank fire and all sorts of divisional and corps systems there.
  8. DesToeR
    DesToeR 9 December 2017 19: 42
    +5
    Quote: Vadim Kurbatov
    The tactics of using such self-propelled guns are defensive current and not for attack

    Why is there 200mm of armor in defense if there are folds of terrain and camouflage? And how to conduct an active defense without the possibility of maneuver? He’s such an unpredictable opponent: you used to set up a super self-propelled gun on the outskirts of the village - you’ll like to annoy all those passing by. And he, you bastard, take and go around a couple to the left (or right) of this village where far away with the forest. In a bummer! It is necessary to drag your 70t along the valleys, swamps and forests in order to catch up with the adversary who has broken through to the rear. Only it was troublesome to do on the "Fed". For defense, the Germans produced a good self-propelled gun on a Czech chassis. True, without records of armor with an ordinary 75mm gun and a cabin the size of a dog kennel. But she was driving! And rode well. Romel himself preferred to go on reconnaissance on Czech tanks - armor is garbage, but our tanks are fast.
    1. Vadim Kurbatov
      Vadim Kurbatov 9 December 2017 20: 19
      +1
      to repel flanking attacks, more maneuverable medium tanks would be suitable
  9. Pre-cat
    Pre-cat 9 December 2017 19: 59
    +3
    Iron people were!
    1. antivirus
      antivirus 11 December 2017 12: 44
      +2
      Yes, one Ferdinand, which had no damage to the hull and chassis, was set on fire by a bottle of CS abandoned by the foot soldiers.

      across the country are white obelisks with red stars ..
      last names ... and that's it
  10. DesToeR
    DesToeR 9 December 2017 20: 49
    +2
    Quote: Vadim Kurbatov
    to repel flanking attacks, more maneuverable medium tanks would be suitable

    That is yes. But where to get them, medium and maneuverable? Only pre-storm self-propelled guns with a medium-caliber gun weighing 70 tons and medium-sized Panther tanks weighing ... in 45 tons are available. So the T-4 / T-3 “workhorses” had to go on the attack and carry out counterattacks. Without the wonders of armor, without super guns, but with reliable running and acceptable cross.
    1. Vadim Kurbatov
      Vadim Kurbatov 9 December 2017 21: 37
      +2
      you do not forget about StuG assault guns
      1. Nehist
        Nehist 10 December 2017 23: 36
        +1
        Then Brumbard is better. Those with their 150mm guns are really assault self-propelled guns and armor in the forehead.
        1. Vadim Kurbatov
          Vadim Kurbatov 11 December 2017 01: 56
          +1
          Sturmpanzer IV armor was the same as the T-4
        2. Vadim Kurbatov
          Vadim Kurbatov 11 December 2017 01: 57
          +1
          And for 3 years of release, he changed the hull every time so the armor depended on the hull of the tank on which the howitzer was attached
  11. Glory1974
    Glory1974 9 December 2017 22: 05
    12
    But, as a rule, with us, if the tank does not catch fire, it can shoot - it must shoot. And the Germans threw their own, even when the tank did not catch fire, only hit it hard. Our technology was valued higher than people, so we were brought up. ”

    In the 2002 in Chechnya, the BMP from the convoy stalled. It was in the evening, the convoy went to the temporary deployment point, and the infantry fighting vehicle remained and was attacked by militants. As a result of the battle, our infantry withdrew, undermining the infantry fighting vehicle before departure. The headquarters of the group conducted an investigation and tried to blame us for not saving the car due to cowardice.
    So the technology, even from the time of the king of peas, is still appreciated more than people.
    1. IL-18
      IL-18 10 December 2017 12: 57
      +8
      Here the staff and ass commanders wanted to cover up that they had not properly organized preparations for the march, which led to the loss of equipment.
  12. Cat Marquis
    Cat Marquis 9 December 2017 22: 28
    +2
    As for the reservation "Ferdinand" .... There is a famous photograph which depicts, in several angles, a lined "ferdinand" on the Kursk. And there, in the photo, an open hatch is visible in the stern of the hull. Judging by the photograph, the thickness of the reservation of the stern is no less than 100-150 mm.
  13. DesToeR
    DesToeR 9 December 2017 23: 27
    +3
    Quote: Cat Marquis
    And there, in the photo, an open hatch is visible in the stern of the hull. Judging by the photograph, the thickness of the reservation of the stern is no less than 100-150 mm.

    If this photograph is meant, then the flap for ejecting spent cartridges is placed on a cone, hence the optical illusion:

    In the same photo, you can compare the thickness of the stern sheet in the area of ​​the hole for the hatch with the thickness of the side sheets connected to the spike. Everything seems to be exactly:
  14. Fedorov
    Fedorov 10 December 2017 14: 42
    +2
    The shell exploded on the right side of the frontal armor! Precisely worked! But the Ferdinand continued to walk as if nothing had happened!

    Somehow, it is hardly believed that the 122 mm shell could not cause harm request Yes, there was a concussion in my crew at least ... Although ... if there really was 20 cm, then maybe.
    1. sibiryouk
      sibiryouk 10 December 2017 17: 26
      +3
      The 122-mm howitzer standing on the SU-122 had a low initial velocity of the projectile, about 250-300 m / s, or maybe the shell was high-explosive, then everything is clear!
      1. Vadim Kurbatov
        Vadim Kurbatov 10 December 2017 18: 02
        +1
        If the memory does not change the SU-122 had a current of 2 shells high-explosive and cumulative
    2. 97110
      97110 17 March 2018 15: 45
      +1
      Quote: Fedorov
      a concussion is provided to the crew at least ..

      Grandfather shared his impressions. If at the moment of the impact of another shell on the armor even touch it with your hand, it will swell, it is not possible to use. But it’s "if you touch." The grandfather did not specify the caliber of the PTO, the armor on Matylda is not 200, but the skin is thick.
  15. pro100y.belarus
    pro100y.belarus 10 December 2017 21: 03
    +3
    The thickness of the armor is serious, the caliber of the guns is also without question. But most of all I was struck by kamikaze dogs with mines on their backs, at the cost of their lives turning the end of the battle.
    So we broke a ridge to these reptiles ...
    1. Vadim Kurbatov
      Vadim Kurbatov 10 December 2017 22: 25
      +1
      Why be surprised? the Germans also began to do so even in larger numbers than in the USSR
    2. antivirus
      antivirus 11 December 2017 12: 48
      +1
      about dogs back in the 70s mentioned
    3. 97110
      97110 17 March 2018 15: 51
      0
      Quote: pro100y.belarus
      I was most struck by kamikaze dogs

      And me, your inability to do without barbarism. Did a Soviet dog destroy an enemy tank at the cost of his life? No, it does not fit. Here's a kamikaze, a Molotov cocktail - yes, it's so modern! You feel involved in the great Anglo-Japanese civilization, cherish the hope that you too will break off something from their bounty.
      1. Arakius
        Arakius 3 May 2018 03: 10
        0
        Internet, personal computer, profile, account, topwar ...... and you broke off, no?
        1. 97110
          97110 3 May 2018 05: 55
          0
          Quote: Arakius
          Internet, personal computer, profile, account, topwar ...... and you broke off, no?

          Which of the following have you met in my answers? Be proud of your Bandera, a piece of Swedish dubbing-color in your hands ...
          1. Arakius
            Arakius 3 May 2018 23: 09
            0
            Your answers and my reading of them would not have been possible without the above. And you should restrain your ardor. Your grandfathers saved their country of soviets, your generation - surrendered it to the enemy, so there’s nothing to cling to someone else’s glory
            1. 97110
              97110 12 May 2018 14: 04
              0
              Quote: Arakius
              Your answers and my reading of them would not have been possible without the above. And you should restrain your ardor. Your grandfathers saved their country of soviets, your generation - surrendered it to the enemy, so there’s nothing to cling to someone else’s glory

              Look at your flag, and shut up ...
  16. Sivasa
    Sivasa 11 December 2017 12: 35
    +2
    The article is about nothing.

    1). A total of about 90 Ferdinands were released. They could not play a significant role. The vast majority of the soldiers of the Red Army (SA) did not even see them.
    2). For the Tigers, reminders were precisely issued with methods of fighting and identifying vulnerabilities.
    3). Of course, the German command made no fatal mistake. Those 25-30 cars that remained after the battle were lost within 7-10 days. 25-30 cars in 7-10 days ... not too impressive statistics.
    4). Ferdinand is an absolutely pointless, unnecessary machine. The cost of them outweighed the benefits many times over.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 11 December 2017 15: 16
      +4
      Quote: Sivasa
      3). Of course, the German command made no fatal mistake. Those 25-30 cars that remained after the battle were lost within 7-10 days. 25-30 cars in 7-10 days ... not too impressive statistics.

      Oh how. And who then fought after Kursk - in Italy and in the USSR (at Nikopol and Ternopol)? And then in Germany itself (Wünsdorf-Zossen)?
      Quote: Sivasa
      4). Ferdinand is an absolutely pointless, unnecessary machine. The cost of them outweighed the benefits many times over.

      Ferdinand is an attempt to use the existing chassis of tanks that have lost the contest. In our country, exactly the same half a year was perverted with the manufactured KV-7 cases, trying to stuff 152 mm guns into them. Because it was considered mismanagement to send ready-made hulls of an assault tank, which the army abandoned, to remelting.
      1. Sivasa
        Sivasa 13 December 2017 22: 36
        0
        1). The remnants are unfinished and fought.
        2). That's right.
    2. 97110
      97110 17 March 2018 16: 02
      +1
      Quote: Sivasa
      A total of about 90 Ferdinands were released. They could not play a significant role. The vast majority of the soldiers of the Red Army (SA) did not even see them.

      And whoever saw them in battle will no longer forget. If he survives to the end of the battle. Here you can see the maturity of the Soviet command. They waited for their blow, and minutes before him they carried out counter-training. And the bulk of the Ferdinands died in land mines from heavy artillery fire - there were substantial articles about the Tigers and Ferdinands. If they attacked them, as some of us suggested, the losses were much greater. Grandfather said that in 1944 their regiment consistently sent 3 tanks in an attack on a high-rise with Ferdinand. Was he there or something else, I don’t know. The regiment was shot after 6 burned Matyld in place, threw the entire regiment into the attack, the German left. Mathylds are also those walkers, they don’t pull through the mud, along the highway 24 km / h.
  17. vicyo
    vicyo 12 December 2017 01: 02
    +2
    One of the fingers sucked about 70 tons, the rest repeat like asses. Full of sources with an accurate weight of 60 tons.
    On the soft ground of Ukraine, these self-propelled guns just started to drown under their own weight, it is not surprising that they were transferred to Italy, with its rocky soil.
    1. nikoliski
      nikoliski 5 May 2018 15: 24
      -1
      70 tons weighed jagdtiger
  18. Brigadier
    Brigadier 13 December 2017 18: 15
    +2
    "... with our 122 mm howitzers, the frontal armor of all these" animals ", except for" nashhorn "(armor 10-30 mm), does not break through."
    Pure idiocy! Some ***** wrote!
    “Nashhorna” pierced even the ATGM, and not that 122 mm. howitzer!
    They will pick up the "PESATELS" ... and they are happy to try - to write articles on near-war topics, without understanding anything!
    1. nikoliski
      nikoliski 5 May 2018 15: 27
      0
      It would be better if I carefully read that the animals EXCEPT Nashorn (rhinoceros) didn’t break through, of course, having cardboard armor and an open cabin, everyone could break through in succession, and Elephant (the elephant and he is Fedya) having 200 mm frontal armor against penetrating a 122 mm gun in 175 mm had quite good protection , it was easier to damage landmines (to make chips inside the armor with explosions, since there was no lining) than to make through penetration.
      1. yehat
        yehat 5 May 2018 17: 35
        0
        Less trust TTX in WOT.
        in the war it happened, IP directly pierced tiger 122 with a gun through the head -
        penetrated not only the frontal armor, but also stern.
        it's about breaking through 175mm.
        one of the first tigers was hit by the fire of high-explosive shells su-122.
        and as far as I know, even indirect hits.
        Look better at the half-meter armor breaches in the photographs that the 122mm ISU-122 and IS-2 gun left.
        1. nikoliski
          nikoliski 5 May 2018 18: 09
          -1
          The tiger has 100mm armor, no wonder
  19. Captain Nemo
    Captain Nemo 13 December 2017 20: 56
    0
    And when did we have cumulative shells?
  20. nikoliski
    nikoliski 5 May 2018 15: 23
    -1
    A good article (by the way, playing in the tanks, Fedyu loved it, he was a favorite in KB, sometimes 5700 damage was loaded on it) of course there is a 128mm gun in the game (instead of the stock 88mm)
  21. bistrov.
    bistrov. 18 June 2018 13: 00
    0
    For the Ferdinand, which had a diesel-electric chassis, even an ordinary hillock was a test. What could already be said about Russian mud .. Therefore, after a breakdown on the Kursk Bulge, the Germans used them only from ambushes. Their gun, indeed, was a very formidable weapon. She could hit our tanks at a distance of about 2 km.