Military Review

The Stavropol Maiden

98
Recently, an emergency happened in Stavropol. One construction company demolished an old house of the second half of the 19th century on Dzerzhinsky Street in which the family of Rimma Ivanova allegedly lived - the heroine of the First World War, the sister of mercy, who was awarded the Order of St. George.




Literally a month before the demolition, the house was included in the register historical buildings of the city. But due to inconsistency between the departments, permission was given for the demolition. When the public of the city sounded the alarm, and the administrative and judicial proceedings began, it turned out that the house had nothing to do with the Ivanov family. The building where Rimma and her family lived was demolished back in the 90s ...

This story is very symbolic. Everything that was connected with the First World War, which at one time was called the Second World War, in Soviet times was forgotten. By and large, the name of Rimma Ivanova was also forgotten. But in the 1915 year, when she accomplished her feat, she was called in the newspapers the Russian Joan of Arc.

This is what the metropolitan newspapers 19 September 1915 wrote. “In the 105 infantry regiment of the Orenburg regiment, Rimma Ivanova, sister of mercy, despite the persuasion of officers and brother, a regimental doctor, worked all the time under fire, bandaging wounded soldiers and officers of the tenth company. When all the officers were killed, she gathered the soldiers to her, rushed with them to the trench, which they took, and the wounded immediately died, mourned by the whole regiment.

Rimma was born in Stavropol in 1894, in the family of the treasurer of the Stavropol Spiritual Consistory, Mikhail Pavlovich Ivanov. She studied at the Olginsky Women's Gymnasium, after which she went to work as a teacher in the village of Petrovskoye, Gratnenensky district. Here she found the news of the beginning of the war. The girl signed up for the nurses' courses and began working in the second diocesan hospital. Once in Stavropol began to form a detachment of sisters of mercy to be sent to the front, Rimma enters into it, despite the persuasion of relatives and friends.

“Lord, how I would like you to calm down. Yes, it would be time. You have to rejoice, if you love me, that I managed to get a job and work where I wanted. After all, it was not for fun that I did it and not for my own pleasure, but to help.

May I be a true sister of mercy. Let me do what is good and what to do. Think as you like, but I give you my honest word that I would give a lot in order to alleviate the suffering of those who shed blood.

But you do not worry: our dressing station is not exposed to fire. My good, do not worry for the sake of God. If you love me, try to do as I feel better. This will be true love for me. Life is generally short, and it is necessary to live it as completely and better as possible. Help, Lord! Pray for Russia and humanity. ”

At the beginning of 1915, she was already in the army, where she asked for the 83 th Samursky regiment, which was formed in Stavropol, and its young officers were at evenings in the Olginsky gymnasium. One of them describes the arrival of Rimma Ivanova:

“And now we have a sister at the dressing station, a former Stavropol gymnasium student, Ivanova, who arrived not so long ago. The soldier shaved her, gave harem pants, a shirt, an overcoat and boots. In a word, we made a soldier from a gymnasium. During the battle, she supervised our nurses, and I must say that she worked well. She herself made dressings, rubbed hands and feet frostbitten ... The soldiers terribly loved her and called Ivan Mikhailovich. ”

But parents in their letters begged Rimma to return home, they say, and in the hospitals of Stavropol, she could benefit the Fatherland. Having received news of his father’s illness, Rimma agrees to come home. But reports of heavy fighting at the front make the girl again go against the will of her parents. Rimma only makes one concession for them, signing up for the 105-th Orenburg regiment, where her elder brother Vladimir served as a regimental doctor. The regiment fought in the Polesye area of ​​the newly created Western Front.

8 September 1915 Rimma sent her parents the last news on her own behalf and her brother: “We feel good! It's calm now. Do not worry, my family. Kiss. Rimma. 8.IX.15.

22 September 1915 of the current army received the following telegram addressed to the Governor of the Stavropol Governorate: “The Sovereign Emperor 17 of September condescended to commemorate the late sister of mercy Rimma Mikhailovna of the Order of St. George 4 degree.

Ivanova’s sister, despite the regrets of the regimental doctor, officers and soldiers, always tied up the wounded on the front line under terrible fire, and on September 9, when both officers of the 10 Company of the 105 Orenburg Regiment were killed, they gathered the soldier and rushed forward together with them, took the enemy trenches.

Here she was mortally wounded and died, mourned by officers and soldiers ... A corps with deep chagrin and condolences testifies respect for the family of the deceased who raised the heroine - the sister of mercy. What I ask to inform parents and relatives living on the street. Lermontovskaya, 28. Commander of the 31 Army Corps, Adjutant General Mishchenko. "

It should be noted that Emperor Nicholas II awarded Rimma Ivanov with an officer's order of St. George 4 degree as an exception, since she did not have an officer's rank. Thus, Rimma Ivanova became the first woman awarded this high order for the 150-year history of its existence.

Governor Yanushevich sent a response telegram: "I ask, according to the earnest request of parents and representatives of the city and Zemstvo, to send the ashes of Rimma Ivanova, accompanied by her brother, a doctor of the Orenburg regiment, to Stavropol for the burial of the heroine who died a glorious death."

In the Stavropol archives preserved newspapers, which described the farewell ceremony with the heroic countrywoman.

“September 24 to 10 hours of the evening, to the arrival of the train, at the station gathered the relatives of the deceased, her teacher, her friends at the gymnasium, sisters of mercy of the Stavropol hospitals, many of whom stayed at the station until the next morning.

On the morning of September 25, the soldiers of the units located in the city were stationed upwards along Nikolayevsky Prospect and further along the line of the procession. After a brief word about Rimma Ivanova, pronounced by Bishop Michael, the coffin with the body of the deceased was put on a white hearse harnessed to four horses in white blankets. Ahead of the procession on velvet cushions carried Rimma Ivanova awards: two crosses of St. George, soldiers and officers, and the St. George medal. At the head of the funeral procession behind the coffin were Stavropol Governor B. Yanushevich, Bishop Michael, representatives of the nobility, intellectuals, merchants, high school students of female and male gymnasiums, theological seminary students. Next - a military brass band and a detachment of troops with a banner and weapons. The funeral procession moved under the sad ringing of bells in all the churches of the city. The clergy of the churches as they approached the procession joined him with banners and icons.

When the procession approached the building of the Olginskaya gymnasium, where Rimma studied, the choir of high-school girls met her with the performance of the mourning march "Two worlds". Further, after stopping at the parents' house, the sorrowful procession proceeded to the temple of St. Andrew the First-Called. Here, at the tomb of Rimma Ivanova, the eminent Archbishop Agafador served the divine liturgy.
The next day, the coffin with the body of Rimma Ivanova was taken out of the church to sing an episcopal chorus. The last words were spoken. That's what Archpriest Semyon Nikolsky said:

"...Yes! The sister of mercy became the leader of the army, accomplished the hero's feat ... Our city, the city of Stavropol! What glory you have been honored! France had the Maid of Orleans - Joan of Arc. Russia has a Stavropol maiden - Rimma Ivanov. And her name will henceforth live forever in the kingdoms of the world ... ”

The school where Rimma Ivanova worked was given her name, a scholarship of her name was established at the medical assistant’s school, and in Stavropol they were going to erect a monument to the heroic sister of mercy.

But a revolution occurred, and the name of the heroic girl was consigned to oblivion. Even her grave in the fence of St. Andrew’s Cathedral was destroyed. For a long time, until the end of 80's, her name was known only to historians and local historians.

A veteran of the Stavropol regional studies, museum worker Veniamin Gosdanker recalled how in 60-s he was lucky to meet with Rimma Ivanova’s brother Vladimir, who had long worked in one of the medical institutions of the city as a radiologist.

“Once, in search of the“ Stavropol antiquity ”, we, then still starting our fascinating museum journey, found ourselves in the hospitable home of the old radiologist Vladimir Mikhailovich Ivanov. They knew, of course, about the unprecedented feat of his sister, “this Russian Joan of Arc”, about the merciless oblivion of many pages of the pre-revolutionary past that had been denied. However, museum workers and then were people quite liberated in the choice of subjects. Well, well, if not in the exposition, in the eyes of ideological censors, then to the storerooms, for future times, oh, how relics from “Ivanovo penates” were!

We received from the hands of Vladimir Mikhailovich and his wife Valentina Gavrilovna rare photographs, documents, miraculously preserved fragments of a metal wreath from the grave of Rimma, pages of newspapers of that time with publications about an unprecedented funeral service in Stavropol with church and secular honors, soldiers' letters devoted to their favorite, front sister of mercy .

There was a certificate there: “This is given to the junior doctor of the 105 infantry regiment of the Orenburg regiment, the doctor Ivanov, in that he is allowed to send the body of his feldsher-volunteer Rimma Mikhailovna killed in a battle under the village of Stavropol (lips). Wet-Dubrova September 9 1915 of the year that the signature with the application of the official mastic seal makes sure. September 9 1915. The current army.

And also the museum became the owner of an old chandelier, which God knows not, but very dear to the heart of the family: it shone Ivanov long ago, reminded of the past ... ".

Today, a monument has been restored at the alleged burial site of Rimma Ivanova, since the exact place has not yet been established. On the building of the former Olginsky gymnasium, where Rimma studied, a memorial plaque was installed.

Finally, a street named after her appeared. But there is no monument to her in Stavropol. Although there are monuments to the leaders of the revolution and the Civil War with a very dubious reputation. Maybe the scandal with the demolished building, which reminded the residents of Stavropol of an outstanding countrywoman, will motivate the public to take action?

By the way, in the neighboring town of Mikhailovsk, a bust of Rimma Ivanova appeared on one of the avenues at the expense of the Fund Patrons for Children. In the future, they plan to open a gymnasium for girls "Mercy". Good start.
Author:
Originator:
http://www.stoletie.ru/territoriya_istorii/stavropolskaja_deva_185.htm
98 comments
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  1. 210ox
    210ox 3 December 2017 06: 32
    11
    What we have, we don’t store it, we lost it, weeping. At all times, in spite of politics in Russia, there were a lot of people who were ready to sacrifice for the sake of the Fatherland .. They forgot it. Or maybe they just didn’t know ... How the current generation knows everything ... about the iPhone , but not the history of their homeland.
    1. Vend
      Vend 3 December 2017 13: 17
      +6
      It's time to make a feast of the Heroes of the First World War at the state level. Must not be forgotten
      1. RUSS
        RUSS 3 December 2017 20: 54
        +2
        Part of the speech of Vladimir Putin:
        “This is a forgotten war. Forgotten, she understands why. Our country achieved a lot during the Soviet period of time, this is an obvious fact, but there are things that are also obvious. This war was called "imperialist" in Soviet times ... How the Second World War differs from the First, in fact, is unclear. There really is no difference. But I think that they were not talking about it because they called it “imperialist,” although it was primarily a question of the geopolitical interests of the countries involved in the conflict. Hidden her for completely different reasons.

        Our country has lost this war to the losing side. A unique situation in the history of mankind! We lost to the losing Germany. In fact, they capitulated to her, and after a while she capitulated to the Entente herself. And this is the result of national betrayal of the then leadership of the country. This is obvious, they were afraid of this and did not want to talk about it, and kept silent about it, and carried this cross on themselves ...

        What we lost after capitulating! Huge territories, huge interests of the country were given away, it was not clear for what interests, for the sake of the party interests of one group that wanted to stabilize its position in power. But time has passed, now we need to return to this, because people who have given their lives for Russia's interests should not be forgotten.

        ... You know, I was in France, where we erected a monument to Russian soldiers who fought in France, and veterans then recalled how the victors walked in the center of Paris, and our soldiers, who heroically fought on the fronts of the First World War, stood aside and cried. This injustice must be eliminated. ”
      2. RUSS
        RUSS 3 December 2017 20: 58
        +1
        Quote: Wend
        It's time to make a feast of the Heroes of the First World War at the state level. Must not be forgotten

        Heroes of the Fatherland Day (or simply Heroes Day) is a memorable date that is celebrated in Russia annually, on December 9. It is a working day.

        The day before the bill was considered, the Chairman of the State Duma of the Russian Federation and the Chairman of the Supreme Council of the United Russia party, Boris Vyacheslavovich Gryzlov, explained in an interview to reporters that "we are talking about restoring the holiday that existed in pre-revolutionary Russia - the Day of St. George Knights, which was celebrated on December 9. The same date will be fixed for the Day of Heroes of the Fatherland who deserve to have their own holiday. ”
  2. parusnik
    parusnik 3 December 2017 07: 51
    +7
    [B]
    connected with the First World War, which at one time was called the Second World War [
    /b.BIZ... During the war, especially the Patriotic War, the army does not starve ... And does not participate in the overthrow of the government .. At the same time, I do not in the least diminish the feat of those who died in that war, and Rimma Ivanova in particular ...
    1. populist
      populist 3 December 2017 10: 05
      +6
      They are trying to supplant, or at least partially block the history of the Great Patriotic War, with the history of WWI (unknown "domestic"). And the heroes of this pseudo-domestic (PO) are trying to oust the heroes of the Great Patriotic War. To certain forces (new masters) negative this is necessary to whitewash the tsar and the White Guard, and to denigrate the revolution.
      1. captain
        captain 3 December 2017 10: 58
        10
        Quote: populist
        They are trying to supplant, or at least partially block the history of the Great Patriotic War, with the history of WWI (unknown "domestic"). And the heroes of this pseudo-domestic (PO) are trying to oust the heroes of the Great Patriotic War. To certain forces (new masters) negative this is necessary to whitewash the tsar and the White Guard, and to denigrate the revolution.

        They are trying to remind some who do not remember kinship that Russia was before October 1917. Although for people like you it was not.
        1. parusnik
          parusnik 3 December 2017 11: 43
          +8
          They are trying to remind some who do not remember kinship that Russia was before October 1917. Although for people like you it was not.
          ... You don’t have to stick labels in the spirit of today's time .. It was already pasted. Explain why in 1812, after the surrender of Moscow, the guard officers didn’t run to the temple to beat Alexander I with a snuffbox ... But gentlemen from the military industrial complex went in 1916 to the front to seek support among the military to overthrow the king and got it ... Didn’t they understand that they weren’t changing horses at the crossing .. Or they proceeded from the principle: they shot dead horses ... When such things happen, this is not World War II, but war going on for the sake of someone’s personal interests ...
          1. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter 3 December 2017 12: 09
            10
            Quote: parusnik
            When such things happen, this is not World War II, but a war going on for the sake of someone's personal interests ...

            And with what fright the war of 1914 became Patriotic? This war was exclusively imperialistic, unnecessary and fatal for Russia.
            1. parusnik
              parusnik 3 December 2017 12: 29
              +6
              This war was exclusively imperialistic, unnecessary and fatal for Russia.
              ... I don’t have to explain this .. Ask the author, today's ideologists and others. Yes, Nicholas II declared the Patriotic War in his speech, it was such in form, but not in content .. When they say that RI performed allied obligations on the Masurian swamps, yes, in form ... Paying interest paid for loans received from the Allies before the war .. And later on I paid interest on the following loans .. But you can’t write and say that because you will be labeled “not remembering kinship "... I don’t understand one thing .. Durnovo, the Vandam, who warned against joining the war, spoke of the subsequent disasters and consequences .. They are also .. not" remembering kinship "....? .. Or the old formula works: No a prophet in his own country ...
              1. Sling cutter
                Sling cutter 3 December 2017 12: 33
                +6
                Quote: parusnik
                .Yes, Nicholas II in his speech declared the Patriotic War, and it was such in form, but not in content.

                The colleague doesn’t really care what Nicholas No. 2 proclaimed there, the war of 1914 was neither domestic in form nor in content. There was no fact of aggression against RI!
                1. Vintovkin
                  Vintovkin 3 December 2017 12: 39
                  +7
                  Quote: Stroporez
                  Nicholas No. 2,

                  Pacloun on you is not)
                  1. Sling cutter
                    Sling cutter 3 December 2017 12: 40
                    +4
                    Quote: Vintovkin
                    Pacloun on you is not)

                    She probably is, only I don’t know about her request wink
                    1. Vintovkin
                      Vintovkin 3 December 2017 12: 42
                      +3
                      Quote: Stroporez
                      only I don’t know about her

                      Blessed are the ignorant .. amen)
                      1. Sling cutter
                        Sling cutter 3 December 2017 13: 15
                        +6
                        Quote: Vintovkin
                        Blessed are the ignorant .. amen)

                        Yeah, this chtole belay

                        Something "the light of Ivanovo" reminds laughing
                        With such, no enemy is terrible to us !!!
                2. parusnik
                  parusnik 3 December 2017 12: 59
                  +5
                  I’m not talking about this, there was a fact of aggression, it wasn’t .. but more about the fact that if the cell says "elephant" do not believe your eyes ... And in our country right now, in the aviary behind the inscription elephant, who is anything but the elephant itself ...
                3. Whispering in the night
                  Whispering in the night 3 December 2017 14: 43
                  +2
                  Quote: Stroporez

                  ..the war of 1914, neither in form nor in content, was Patriotic. There was no fact of aggression against RI!

                  The fact of aggression was, Germany and Austria-Hungary declared war on Russia, and not vice versa, but given the scale and nature of the war - it was the Patriotic War and the feats in it Russian soldiers and officers committed no less than in the Great Patriotic War. You will no longer succeed in erasing these exploits and, in general, this Patriotic War from the people's memory, do not even hope!
                  1. Sling cutter
                    Sling cutter 3 December 2017 15: 02
                    +4
                    Quote: Whispering in the night
                    You will no longer succeed in erasing these exploits and, in general, this Patriotic War from the people's memory, do not even hope!

                    You, my dear, the address was wrong ..
                    I did not and do not try to etch anything, but I continue to assert that the war of 1914-1918. was imperialist !!!
                    Quote: Whispering in the night
                    The fact of aggression was, Germany and Austria-Hungary declared war on Russia, and not vice versa,

                    Declaring war does not mean aggression.
                    but what we have in fact:
                    "On July 28, Austria-Hungary, declaring that the requirements of the ultimatum were not fulfilled, declared war on Serbia. Austro-Hungarian heavy artillery began shelling Belgrade, and regular troops of Austria-Hungary crossed the Serbian border. Russia said it would not allow the occupation of Serbia. The vacation in the French army has stopped. "
                    July 31 in the Russian Empire declared general mobilization in the army.
                    Germany presents Russia with an ultimatum: stop conscription, or Germany declares war on Russia.
                    Quote: Whispering in the night
                    and given the scale and nature of the war - it was precisely the Patriotic War

                    Amelie is your week, about "character" and "scale" and how they relate to the concept of "World War II".
                    And also do not forget about how Russian soldiers fled from the fronts, refusing to fight is not clear why.

                    Pysy. Nobody is going to question the heroism of Russian soldiers. soldier
                    1. Vintovkin
                      Vintovkin 3 December 2017 15: 12
                      +1
                      Quote: Stroporez
                      Quote: Whispering in the night


                      You should be careful with him .. xs, what whispers yes ish at night)
                      1. Whispering in the night
                        Whispering in the night 3 December 2017 18: 50
                        +1
                        And then you will finish ... From a rifle ..)
                    2. Whispering in the night
                      Whispering in the night 3 December 2017 18: 58
                      +2
                      Quote: Stroporez

                      I did not and do not try to etch anything, but I continue to assert that the war of 1914-1918. was imperialist !!!

                      Declaring war does not mean aggression.
                      but what we have in fact:
                      "On July 28, Austria-Hungary, declaring that the requirements of the ultimatum were not fulfilled, declared war on Serbia. Austro-Hungarian heavy artillery began shelling Belgrade, and regular troops of Austria-Hungary crossed the Serbian border. Russia said it would not allow the occupation of Serbia. The vacation in the French army has stopped. "
                      July 31 in the Russian Empire declared general mobilization in the army.
                      Germany presents Russia with an ultimatum: stop conscription, or Germany declares war on Russia.

                      Mobilization in response to a sharp aggravation of the international situation and to mobilizing your enemies is normal, this is not aggression or declaration of war, but declaration of war is aggression, how else can you characterize this?

                      And call the First World War whatever you want, it’s your business, we will call it as it deserves it, that is, the Second World War. We will bring this to children, and then to grandchildren, because the younger generation should be brought up on the heroic examples of our ancestors of all past eras, at the Kulikovo battle, at the Battle of Molody, at Minin and Pozharsky, Poltava, Borodino, the Crimean War, Shipka, Port- Arthur, Osovce and Smorgon from the Second Patriotic War, Stalingrad and Leningrad, the ninth company in Afghanistan and the sixth in Chechnya ...
                      1. Sling cutter
                        Sling cutter 3 December 2017 19: 40
                        +2
                        Quote: Whispering in the night
                        We will bring this to children, and then to grandchildren, because the younger generation should be brought up on the heroic examples of our ancestors of all past eras, at the Kulikovo battle, at the Battle of Molody, at Minin and Pozharsky, Poltava, Borodino, the Crimean War, Shipka, Port- Arthur, Osovce and Smorgon from the Second Patriotic War, Stalingrad and Leningrad, the ninth company in Afghanistan and the sixth in Chechnya ...

                        Commendable yes Only you forgot about the Battle of the Ice, and, accordingly, Suvorov through the Alps, the capture of Ishmael, Sinop, again.
                        I have only one question for you, based on your patriotic appeals, will our gradation be: 1st Patriotic, 2nd Patriotic and Great Patriotic?
                        It’s not just resenting me anymore, the current obscurantism is already beginning to enrage me!
                        All the same, you, my dear ..., something beguiled yes
                        And how did you miss Russian-Japanese? There is also a lot of heroism, but little use!
                        Here is another domestic way you think
                        1904, February 6 - Japan severs diplomatic relations with Russia
                        1904, February 8 - The Japanese fleet attacked the Russian on Port Atrura raids. The beginning of the Russo-Japanese War
                        1904, March 31 - When entering the sea from Port Atrura, the battleship Petropavlovsk flew into mines and sank. 650 people were killed, including the famous shipbuilder and scientist Admiral Makarov and the famous battle painter Vereshchagin
                        April 1904, 6 - Formation of the 1st and 2nd Pacific Squadrons
                        1904, May 1 - defeat of a detachment under the command of M. Zasulich numbering about 18 thousand people from the Japanese in a battle on the Yalu River. The beginning of the Japanese invasion of Manchuria
                        1904, May 5 - landing of the Japanese on the Liaondung Peninsula
                        1904, May 10 - the railway connection between Manchuria and Port Arthur is interrupted
                        1904, May 29 - the distant port is occupied by the Japanese
                        1904, August 9 - the beginning of the defense of Port Arthur
                        1904, August 24 - battle of Liaoyang. Russian troops retreated to Mukden
                        1904, October 5 - Battle of the Shah River
                        1905, January 2 - Port Arthur commissioned
                        1905, January - the beginning of the First Russian Revolution
                        1905, January 25 - an attempt of the Russian counterattack, the battle at Sandep, lasted 4 days
                        1905, end of February-beginning of March - the battle of Mukden
                        1905, May 28 - In the Tsushima Strait (between the Korean Peninsula and the islands of the Japanese archipelago of Iki, Kyushu and the southwestern tip of Honshu), the Japanese squadron defeated the Russian 2nd squadron of the Russian fleet under the command of Vice Admiral Rozhdestvensky
                        1905, July 7 - the beginning of the Japanese invasion of Sakhalin
                        1905, July 29 - Sakhalin captured by the Japanese
                        1905, August 9 - in Portsmouth (USA), with the mediation of US President Roosevelt, peace talks between Russia and Japan began.
                        September 1905, 5 - Portsmouth World
                        His article No. 2 read: “The Russian imperial government, recognizing the predominant political, military, and economic interests of Japan in Korea, agrees not to impede the leadership, patronage, and oversight measures that the imperial Japanese government might consider necessary to adopt in Korea.” According to Article 5, Russia ceded to Japan lease rights to the Liaodong Peninsula with Port Arthur and Dalniy, and according to Article 6, the South Manchurian Railway from Port Arthur to Kuan Chen Tzu Station, somewhat south of Harbin. Thus, Southern Manchuria turned out to be the sphere of influence of Japan. Russia was inferior to Japan the southern part of Sakhalin. According to Article 12, Japan imposed on Russia the conclusion of a fishing convention: “Russia undertakes to enter into an agreement with Japan in the forms of granting Japanese citizens fishing rights along the coasts of Russian possessions in the seas of Japan, Okhotsk and Bering. It is agreed that such an obligation will not affect the rights already owned by Russian or foreign nationals in these parts. ” Article 7 of the Portsmouth Peace Treaty stated: “Russia and Japan undertake to operate the railroads they own in Manchuria solely for commercial and industrial purposes, but in no way for strategic purposes”

                        Source: http://chtooznachaet.ru/russko-yaponskaya-vojna-1
                        904-1905.html

                        But at the same time:

                        And the film is Soviet! And you for the patriotic, although unreasonable knowledge of patriotism 4-, well, for history, respectively, "not set off" wink
                      2. IS-80_RVGK2
                        IS-80_RVGK2 3 December 2017 19: 52
                        +2
                        Quote: Whispering in the night
                        And call the First World War whatever you want, it’s your business, we will call it as it deserves it, that is, the Second World War.

                        Keep raving on.
                        Quote: Whispering in the night
                        Stalingrad and Leningrad

                        When you write there does not mean? Then if you lie to the lost one, how do you do it, about Tsaritsyn and St. Petersburg. Meli Emelya is your week.
              2. captain
                captain 3 December 2017 13: 26
                +5
                . When they say that RI fulfilled allied obligations on the Masurian swamps, in the form yes .. According to the content, it paid interest on loans received from the Allies before the war .. And later it already paid interest on the following loans .. But you can’t write and say so, because you will be labeled "not remembering kinship" ... I don’t understand one thing .. Durnovo, the Vandam, who warned against joining the war, spoke of the subsequent disasters and consequences .. They are also .. not "remembering kinship" ....?. . Or the old formula works: There is no prophet in his Fatherland ... [/ quote]
                Question to you; “PERSONAL AND STRICT SECRET MESSAGE FROM Mr CHURCHILL TO MARSHAL STALIN”

                “In the West, there are very hard battles, and at any time the High Command may need big decisions ... I will be grateful if you can tell me if we can count on a major Russian offensive on the Vistula front or somewhere else during January ... I consider the matter urgent. 6 January 1945 years. "

                “This letter, of course, is a cry for help. The allied Anglo-American troops, reflecting the German offensive in the Ardennes, lost about 76 890 people, including 8607 killed, 47 129 wounded and 21 144 missing. This greatly frightened the allies, in those days panic reigned in their camp, ”said Yury Nikiforov, head of the scientific sector of the Russian Military Historical Society in an interview with Zvezda.

                Churchill's secret message will reach Stalin only in the evening of January 7. In his reply, the Supreme Commander-in-Chief will report that a major offensive of the Red Army is being prepared, but the weather is hindering, and that in conditions of low fog, aviation and artillery are not able to conduct targeted fire. But at the end of the letter, Stalin reassured Churchill.

                “However, taking into account the position of our allies on the western front, the Supreme High Command Headquarters decided to finish preparations at an accelerated pace and, regardless of the weather, to launch widespread offensive operations against the Germans on the entire central front no later than the second half of January,” from a letter to I.V. Stalin Churchill. And in this case, what percentage of what loan did we pay? Or did the bourgeoisie ask and we feel sorry for several thousand of their soldiers? How to explain this? The blood of the Soviet soldier did not cherish, saving the blood of the bourgeois? For whose interest did the lives of Soviet soldiers lay?
                1. parusnik
                  parusnik 3 December 2017 15: 20
                  +5
                  You stand under the red flag, and the blood of Soviet soldiers is not dear to you. That's because of people like you and others like you who do not remember their kinship. youth and throws conics; like a performance in the Bundestag.
                  ... This is a powerful argument .. in the style of fights smile After the question: How much is opium for the people .. smile You never answered my question ... And immediately slapped your own ... Probably because you have no answer ... I will answer ..
                  And in this case, what percentage of what loan did we pay?
                  ... And what were the loans? Was there foreign capital in the USSR economy? .. Especially Anglo-American? .. I don’t know about it .. If you know write, just don’t write about the concessions of the 20s to the events you described there weren’t anymore .. and about land- Do not write a liz. This is somewhat different. Yes, and the main help was received by Great Britain, and not the USSR .. and so you took interest for nothing. to "disasters and consequences" on the Soviet-German front. And so your passage: ..and the blood of Soviet soldiers is not dear to you. liberal demagogy .. Regarding the phrase: ..That's because of people like you and others like you who do not remember their kinship..in the maternal line from the Zaporizhzhya Cossacks, who later became small-scale Poltava landowners, the great-great-grandfather for merits shown in the Caucasian war, got a vest in the Rostov region, no one wanted to do it from relatives except my great-grandfather. He mastered it. His name was known in merchants and industrial circles from the Don to the Volga. A man could get a job referring to my great-grandfather. 7 children. 2 daughters and 5 sons. Sons later, during the WWII fought on the Caucasian front, participants of the civil war on the Red side, all died during the Second World War My grandfather, an employee of my great-grandfather, married my grandmother, a participant in the civil war, also on the side of the Reds, died defending Sevastopol. Father's. Here the roots go back to the 16th century, non-possessors, fled to the Urals. There further Siberia mastered went farther and farther .. Settled already in Sidelnikovo. Omsk region. From the prosperous. Great-grandfather, partisan against Kolchak. Grandfather, participant of the Finnish war, defended Leningrad , captivity, escape, partisan in Italy. The place isn’t enough to write in more detail. Why I wrote all this, we don’t have boys like Kolya in my family. I’ll end with the words: A passerby Smiled, took off his cap. - You can swear well ...
              3. captain
                captain 3 December 2017 13: 29
                +6
                Quote: parusnik
                . When they say that RI fulfilled allied obligations on the Masurian swamps, in the form yes .. According to the content, it paid interest on loans received from the Allies before the war .. And later it already paid interest on the following loans .. But you can’t write and say so, because you will be labeled "not remembering kinship" ... I don’t understand one thing .. Durnovo, the Vandam, who warned against joining the war, spoke of the subsequent disasters and consequences .. They are also .. not "remembering kinship" ....?. .Or the old formula works: There is no prophet in his Fatherland ...

                Question to you;
                “PERSONAL AND STRICT SECRET MESSAGE FROM Mr CHURCHILL TO MARSHAL STALIN”
                “In the West, there are very hard battles, and at any time the High Command may need big decisions ... I will be grateful if you can tell me if we can count on a major Russian offensive on the Vistula front or somewhere else during January ... I consider the matter urgent. 6 January 1945 years. "
                “This letter, of course, is a cry for help. The allied Anglo-American troops, reflecting the German offensive in the Ardennes, lost about 76 890 people, including 8607 killed, 47 129 wounded and 21 144 missing. This greatly frightened the allies, in those days panic reigned in their camp, ”said Yury Nikiforov, head of the scientific sector of the Russian Military Historical Society in an interview with Zvezda.
                Churchill's secret message will reach Stalin only in the evening of January 7. In his reply, the Supreme Commander-in-Chief will report that a major offensive of the Red Army is being prepared, but the weather is hindering, and that in conditions of low fog, aviation and artillery are not able to conduct targeted fire. But at the end of the letter, Stalin reassured Churchill.
                “However, taking into account the position of our allies on the western front, the Supreme High Command Headquarters decided to finish preparations at an accelerated pace and, regardless of the weather, to launch widespread offensive operations against the Germans on the entire central front no later than the second half of January,” from a letter to I.V. Stalin Churchill.
                And in this case, what percentage of what loan did we pay? Or did the bourgeoisie ask and we feel sorry for several thousand of their soldiers? How to explain this? The blood of the Soviet soldier did not cherish, saving the blood of the bourgeois? For whose interest did the lives of Soviet soldiers lay? You stand under the red flag, and the blood of Soviet soldiers is not dear to you. That's because of people like you and others like you who do not remember their kinship. youth and throws conics; like a performance in the Bundestag.
                “PERSONAL AND STRICT SECRET MESSAGE FROM Mr CHURCHILL TO MARSHAL STALIN”

                "On behalf of the Government of His Majesty and from the bottom of my heart, I want to express our gratitude to you and to congratulate you on the occasion of the gigantic offensive that you launched on the eastern front. January 17 1945 of the year. And 7 of January requested an offensive, but quickly prepared ....
                1. badens1111
                  badens1111 3 December 2017 13: 56
                  +4
                  Quote: captain
                  And in this case, what percentage of what loan did we pay? Or did the bourgeoisie ask and we feel sorry for several thousand of their soldiers? How to explain this? The blood of the Soviet soldier did not cherish, saving the blood of the bourgeois? For whose interest did the lives of Soviet soldiers lay? You stand under the red flag, and the blood of Soviet soldiers is not dear to you. That's because of people like you and others like you who do not remember their kinship. youth and throws conics; like a performance in the Bundestag.

                  Can you answer for yourself, Mr. liar and an accomplice of the speakers in the Bundestag? After all, little knees, that’s you, brought up by you, in your vision of the former, in hatred of the Red Project.
                  The question that you touched on is how difficult it is for your intellect, which is not too developed, to condemn Stalin for the decision you made and not to speculate on the blood of Soviet soldiers, you betrayed and sold their victims, yourself and personally in 1991, throwing out your membership card isn’t it, Mr. ex-communist who bears the rewards of a country so hated now?
            2. RUSS
              RUSS 3 December 2017 20: 40
              +1
              Quote: Stroporez
              with what fright did the war of 1914 become Patriotic? This war was exclusively imperialistic, unnecessary and fatal for Russia.

              The people themselves then called this war the Patriotic War, and the Reds changed it into the Imperial War, now it is World War I.
          2. verner1967
            verner1967 3 December 2017 14: 41
            +3
            Quote: parusnik
            And gentlemen from the military-industrial complex in 1916 went to the front to seek support among the military to overthrow the king
            Quote: parusnik
            When such things happen, this is not World War II.

            But what does the tsar and World War II have to do with it? Only two wars were called Patriotic because they were supported by the people, unlike other wars
            1. RUSS
              RUSS 3 December 2017 20: 47
              +2
              Giving the WWII exclusively imperialist status is a serious mistake, although this point is also present. But first of all, it is necessary to look at it as the Second World War, bearing in mind that the First World War is the war against Napoleon in 1812, and we had the Great Patriotic War in the XNUMXth century.

              Taking part in the WWI, Russia defended itself. After all, it was Germany that declared war on Russia on August 1, 1914. The First World War became the Second World War for Russia. In support of the thesis about the main role of Germany in unleashing the WWII, one can say that at the Paris Peace Conference (which took place from 18.01.1919/21.01.1920/XNUMX to XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX) the Allied powers, among other requirements, set Germany to agree to the article on “war crime” »And acknowledge their responsibility for the outbreak of war.

              All the people then rose to fight against foreign invaders. I emphasize the war once again, declared to us. We did not start it. And the war involved not only the army, which, incidentally, was called up to several million Russians, but also the entire people. The rear and the front worked together. And many of the trends that we later observed during the Great Patriotic War, originate precisely during the WWII. It is enough to say that partisan detachments acted, that the population of the rear provinces actively showed themselves when they helped not only the wounded, but also refugees from the western provinces who were fleeing the war. The sisters of mercy actively acted, the clergymen, who were at the front line and often raised troops in the attack, showed themselves very well.

              We can say that the designation of our great defensive wars with the terms: “First Patriotic”, “Second Patriotic” and “Third Patriotic” is the restoration of the historical continuity that was torn in the period after the WWII.

              In other words, no matter what the official goals of the war were, there were ordinary people who perceived this war as a war for their Fatherland, and they died and suffered precisely for this.
              1. RUSS
                RUSS 3 December 2017 20: 51
                +1
                The myth that the WWII was uniquely imperialistic and was conducted exclusively in the interests of the ruling circles. This is probably the most common myth that has not yet been eradicated even on the pages of school textbooks. But historians are trying to overcome this negative ideological legacy. We try to take a different look at the history of WWI, and explain to our students the true essence of that war.

                Another myth is the idea that the Russian army was only retreating and suffering defeats. Nothing like this. By the way, this myth is widespread in the West, where, in addition to the Brusilovsky breakthrough, that is, the offensive of the troops of the Southwestern Front in 1916 (spring-summer), even Western experts, not to mention the general public, have no major victories of Russian weapons in WWI can not be called.

                In fact, the WWI demonstrated excellent examples of Russian military art. Say, on the South-Western Front, on the Western Front. This is the battle of Galicia, and the Lodz operation. One defense Osovtsa is worth. Osovets is a fortress located on the territory of modern Poland, where the Russians defended themselves for more than six months from the superior forces of the Germans (the siege of the fortress began in January 1915 and lasted 190 days). And this defense is quite comparable with the defense of the Brest Fortress.

                You can give examples of Russian hero pilots. You can recall the sisters of mercy who saved the wounded. There are a lot of such examples.

                There is still a myth that Russia waged this war in isolation from its allies. Nothing like this. The examples I gave earlier debunk this myth.

                The war was coalitional. And we were given significant assistance from France, Great Britain, and then the United States, which entered the war later, in 1917.
                1. IS-80_RVGK2
                  IS-80_RVGK2 3 December 2017 21: 36
                  +2
                  Quote: RUSS
                  The myth that the WWII was uniquely imperialistic and was conducted exclusively in the interests of the ruling circles.

                  And what was it done in the interests of the workers and peasants? You can link to relevant documents where Nikolai 2.0 so outlined the goals of the war?
                  1. RUSS
                    RUSS 3 December 2017 22: 10
                    +1
                    Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                    What was it done in the interests of the workers and peasants?

                    Absolutely.

                    Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                    Nicholas 2.0

                    Who is this?
                    1. IS-80_RVGK2
                      IS-80_RVGK2 5 December 2017 11: 10
                      +2
                      Quote: RUSS
                      Absolutely.

                      Absolutely not.
                      Quote: RUSS
                      Who is this?

                      Of course, I know that monarchists and anti-Soviet are a little stupid, but not so much.
                      1. RUSS
                        RUSS 5 December 2017 16: 58
                        +1
                        Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                        Of course I know that monarchists and anti-Soviet are a little stupid, but not so much.

                        Be more correct, I know Tsar Nicholas II, and who is Nikolai 2.0 I don’t know .... Explain that there is this "2.0"?
                  2. verner1967
                    verner1967 4 December 2017 07: 19
                    +1
                    Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                    And what was it done in the interests of the workers and peasants?

                    and WWII was also conducted in the interests of the workers and peasants? And what kind of war was generally waged in the interests of the workers and peasants?
                    1. IS-80_RVGK2
                      IS-80_RVGK2 5 December 2017 11: 14
                      +3
                      Quote: verner1967
                      and WWII was also carried out in the interests of workers and peasants

                      Exactly. So that their corpses would then not be heated by the crematoriums of a typical Auschwitz. But the monarchists do not care about these people, they are all blaarodny. And then what? Slaves, trash alone.
                      1. verner1967
                        verner1967 5 December 2017 18: 49
                        +1
                        Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                        So that their corpses would then not be heated by the crematoriums of a typical Auschwitz.

                        Their bodies have been unburied for more than 60 years.
                        Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                        But the Communists do not care about these people, they are all ideological. And then what? Slaves, trash alone.
                        just two words to change and the truth surfaced.
              2. verner1967
                verner1967 4 December 2017 07: 08
                +1
                Quote: RUSS
                In other words, no matter what the official goals of the war were, there were ordinary people who perceived this war as a war for their Fatherland, and they died and suffered precisely for this.

                this is exactly what I wanted to say, implying the wars of 1812 and 1914, but somehow clumsily put it.
        2. Was mammoth
          Was mammoth 3 December 2017 12: 56
          +2
          Quote: captain
          They are trying to remind some who do not remember kinship that Russia was before October 1917. Although for people like you it was not.

          Zhukov G.K. (recently his birthday was) -two St. George's Crosses, V.I. Chapaev- three St. George's Crosses, .... Did not know? Who was silent? Those historians who are now muddy the Soviet era?
          Quote: parusnik
          I don’t understand one thing ..DurnovoThe Wandam, who warned against entering the war, spoke of the subsequent calamities and consequences.

          Isn't that his granddaughter? wink
          https://weekend.rambler.ru/read/francuzhenka-o-mo
          skve-i-russkih-muzhchinah-2017-11-29 /
          1. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter 3 December 2017 13: 25
            +4
            Quote: There was a mammoth
            Zhukov G.K. (recently his birthday was) -two St. George's Crosses, V.I. Chapaev-three St. George's Crosses, ...

            Semyon Mikhailovich Budyonny - full Gergiev cavalier!
            https://topwar.ru/3694-vernyj-syn-otchizny-marsha
            l-semyon-mixajlovich-budyonnyj.html
            1. Was mammoth
              Was mammoth 3 December 2017 13: 52
              +3
              Quote: Stroporez
              Semyon Mikhailovich Budyonny - full Gergiev cavalier!

              The lists of those fulfilling and fulfilling their military duty with dignity can be continued indefinitely. That is why I put ellipses in the answer to his nobility. The first two names of the heroes of the first world war came to mind.
          2. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter 3 December 2017 13: 39
            +3
            Quote: There was a mammoth
            Zhukov G.K. (recently his birthday was) -two St. George's Crosses, V.I. Chapaev- three St. George's Crosses, ....

            Semyon Budyonny

            1. RUSS
              RUSS 3 December 2017 22: 11
              +2
              Quote: Stroporez
              Semyon Budyonny

              A good soldier, but a mediocre military leader, like his sidekick Voroshilov.
          3. captain
            captain 3 December 2017 19: 42
            +3
            Quote: Was Mammoth
            Quote: captain
            They are trying to remind some who do not remember kinship that Russia was before October 1917. Although for people like you it was not.

            Zhukov G.K. (recently his birthday was) -two St. George's Crosses, V.I. Chapaev- three St. George's Crosses, .... Did not know? Who was silent? Those historians who are now muddy the Soviet era?
            Quote: parusnik
            I don’t understand one thing ..DurnovoThe Wandam, who warned against entering the war, spoke of the subsequent calamities and consequences.

            Isn't that his granddaughter? wink
            https://weekend.rambler.ru/read/francuzhenka-o-mo
            skve-i-russkih-muzhchinah-2017-11-29 /

            Well, do not drink for no reason. Your drunken delirium is scary to read. Though oversleep and read on sobering.
            1. Was mammoth
              Was mammoth 3 December 2017 20: 28
              +2
              Quote: captain
              Well, do not drink for no reason. Your drunken delirium is scary to read. Though oversleep and read on sobering.

              To be rude, your nobility. Did the genes leap? That would be about a hundred years ago, "to flog and hang" ?!
              You claim that Zhukov, Chapaev, Budyonny and many others who supported the Soviet regime are not heroes of the First World War? Or are the heroes only white? Skin, Krasnov, Kolchak?
              How low you value the royal rewards!
        3. IS-80_RVGK2
          IS-80_RVGK2 3 December 2017 19: 41
          +1
          Quote: captain
          Quote: populist
          They are trying to supplant, or at least partially block the history of the Great Patriotic War, with the history of WWI (unknown "domestic"). And the heroes of this pseudo-domestic (PO) are trying to oust the heroes of the Great Patriotic War. To certain forces (new masters) negative this is necessary to whitewash the tsar and the White Guard, and to denigrate the revolution.

          They are trying to remind some who do not remember kinship that Russia was before October 1917. Although for people like you it was not.

          Monarchists you skipped a story and lit a textbook? Why do you constantly carry this nonsense? About non-existent before 1917 Russia?
      2. verner1967
        verner1967 3 December 2017 15: 55
        +4
        Quote: populist
        They are trying to supplant, or at least partially block the history of the Great Patriotic War, with the history of WWI (unknown "domestic").

        Lord, what a nonsense! Let's forget an old story to remember a new one? So what? None of the heroes of the Second World War, is going to forget, they are now being taken out of obscurity for at least none of their graves to please the current market conditions
        1. populist
          populist 3 December 2017 17: 13
          0
          verner1967
          Lord, what a nonsense!

          Well, why is it stupid? The most that is not smart! wink
          An attempt to replace (or push aside) the Second World War in public consciousness with a pseudo-domestic war of 1914 is a manipulation of consciousness (MC). Victims of manipulation of consciousness usually do not realize that they are being deceived. And then it’s too late.
          Pay attention to what is being raised from the deep historical memory not of the heroes of the Patriotic War of 1812 and not of the heroes, for example, of the Time of Troubles, namely the heroes and events of the first pseudo-Patriotic war of 1914.
          This is done in order to move in the consciousness of the average person along the line noble heroes (PPO) - the noble tsar - the noble White Guards to supplant everything revolutionary, Soviet, and most importantly socialist. hi And more and more strengthen their oligarchic power.
          1. verner1967
            verner1967 3 December 2017 17: 52
            +3
            Quote: populist
            This is done so that noble heroes moving in the consciousness of the layman along the line

            Do not make yourself smarter than others. In my mind, for example, some will never replace the others, if yours is not so, then these are your problems.
            Quote: populist
            to the pseudo-Patriotic war 1914

            is it you yourself thought of or suggested who? If yourself, then try to think again
            1. captain
              captain 3 December 2017 18: 39
              +1
              Quote: verner1967
              Quote: populist
              This is done so that noble heroes moving in the consciousness of the layman along the line

              Do not make yourself smarter than others. In my mind, for example, some will never replace the others, if yours is not so, then these are your problems.
              Quote: populist
              to the pseudo-Patriotic war 1914

              is it you yourself thought of or suggested who? If yourself, then try to think again

              He can’t think, the conscience of the communist does not allow.
              1. verner1967
                verner1967 3 December 2017 18: 47
                +2
                Quote: captain
                the conscience of the communist does not allow.

                I would even say - the mind of the communist (their minds are boiling)
                Quote: populist
                This is done so that moving in the consciousness of the average person along the line noble heroes (PPO) - noble king - noble White Guards

                It turns out in the first world White Guards fought, oh how! They equated the graves of the heroes of that war with the earth as "White Guard graves", and then they tell us about some kind of Russophobia of the anti-Soviet.
            2. populist
              populist 3 December 2017 22: 23
              0
              verner1967
              don't make yourself smarter than others

              You think all people are the same belay ?
              What are not those who are dumber and those who are smarter? (As you put it) That some people may know some questions deeper than others and understand these issues better than other people? what
              Have you read Sergei Kara-Murza's “Manipulation of Consciousness”? However, the last question is rhetorical. From the conversation it is clear that they have not read. Read. This is useful ... There are 850 pages in small print. Maybe you read S. Kurginyan - “Esau and Jacob”, “Swing” somewhere in 2000 pages of 3 volumes. Cherry on the cake "Philosophy of History" by Yuri Semenov. Although, I do not advise you to read Kurginyan ... Still, do not overpower. hi
              In my mind, for example, some will never replace the others

              You, perhaps, "will not be replaced, just like mine. However, I wrote about the townsfolk.
              1. verner1967
                verner1967 4 December 2017 07: 14
                +1
                Quote: populist
                What are not those who are dumber and those who are smarter?

                that is, you offer, for the sake of d ... well, not smart people, to forget the heroes of Russian history, so that they remember only those whom it is beneficial to remember? Under such a “sauce” you can emasculate anything and turn into “Ivanes of the Kindred’s Family”.
                Quote: populist
                However, I wrote about the inhabitants.
                I picked up the word, but write right away - rabble.
                Quote: populist
                Although, I do not advise you to read Kurginyan ... Still, do not overpower.

                Well, yes, we ourselves are literate, white bone, not from the peasants ... teacher, damn it!
                1. populist
                  populist 4 December 2017 21: 05
                  0
                  verner1967
                  Quote: populist
                  However, I wrote about the inhabitants.
                  I picked up the word, but write right away - rabble.

                  Rabble is alcoholics, drug addicts and other asocial citizens. And the townsfolk are people living only with small personal interests. Approximately 30-35% of society is made up of conformists — people who passively accept opinions and views that dominate society. Science is sociology.

                  Quote: populist
                  Although, I do not advise you to read Kurginyan ... Still, do not overpower.

                  Well, yes, we ourselves are literate, white bone, not from the peasants ... teacher, damn it!

                  Not from the peasants. From workers
                  1. verner1967
                    verner1967 4 December 2017 21: 11
                    0
                    Quote: populist
                    Approximately 30-35% of society is made up of conformists — people who passively accept opinions and views that dominate society.

                    what `s next? You will explain to them why Baida Maria Karpovna is better than Rimma Ivanova. I wonder how?
                    Quote: populist
                    Not from the peasants. From workers

                    who cares?
                    1. populist
                      populist 4 December 2017 23: 33
                      0
                      verner1967
                      what `s next? You will explain to them why Baida Maria Karpovna is better than Rimma Ivanova. I wonder how?

                      I tried, but not everyone can explain. A significant, and perhaps a large part of the population is very effectively affected by propaganda and / or manipulation.
                      Read in nete about "Overton's windows". Powerful technology. And the whole page.
                      1. verner1967
                        verner1967 5 December 2017 07: 11
                        +1
                        Quote: populist
                        I tried, but not everyone can explain.

                        it is useless work. You will not prove this to anyone other than adherents of communism, and you yourself are to blame for this. Maria Baida (undoubtedly a heroine), according to your words, fought for the state of workers and peasants, and Rimma Ivanova fought for Russia. The state of workers and peasants is now gone, and Russia was, is and will be. No need to castrate your story to the very nowhere.
            3. populist
              populist 3 December 2017 22: 35
              0
              verner1967
              Quote: populist
              to the pseudo-Patriotic war 1914

              is it you yourself thought of or suggested who? If yourself, then try to think again

              What could be World War II if the army dropped rifles and fled? crying
              1. verner1967
                verner1967 4 December 2017 07: 16
                +2
                Quote: populist
                What could be World War II if the army dropped rifles and fled?

                not an army, but separate units, but fled after it was dissolved by order. At the beginning of the Second World War, we also had units that
                Quote: populist
                threw rifles and fled

                Orders No. 270 and No. 227 were not born from scratch.
  3. moskowit
    moskowit 3 December 2017 10: 19
    10
    I just recently found out that my grandfather fought in the 105 Orenburg regiment in East Prussia, where he went missing .. The truth remained alive and returned home in the 1918 year ... A line in the regiment’s combat loss journal ... True, there is no exact date and place. ..
    In the documents of the regiment there is a copy of the order on awarding Rimma Ivanova ...
  4. Nikitin
    Nikitin 3 December 2017 10: 38
    +6
    For 70 years, they tried to erase from the memory of Russia the feat of her sons and daughters during the Second World War, but failed. Failed!
    . But there is no monument to her in Stavropol.

    Already IS! -On the Alley of Honorary Citizens of Stavropol, and opened in 2016
    Her name was also on the monument to "Heroes of the Great War", erected in 1916 in Vyazma. Demolished by "Russophiles" after 1917
    1. solzh
      solzh 3 December 2017 14: 32
      +2
      About which second domestic. Drop your monarcho-patriotic, but in fact anti-Russian statements. February 1917 showed its attitude to your "second national".
      1. Whispering in the night
        Whispering in the night 4 December 2017 21: 22
        +2
        Then, by the same logic, August 91st showed its attitude to socialism, to the communists and to their ideas.
      2. Nikitin
        Nikitin 5 December 2017 11: 27
        +3
        Quote: solzh
        About which second domestic. Drop your monarcho-patriotic, but in fact anti-Russian statements. February 1917 showed its attitude to your "second national".

        About the Second Patriotic War of the Russian people with the invaders 1914-1917
        And stop your Russophobia in relation to his feat
        President of Russia: .
        "How is the Second World War different from the First? There really is no difference. "
        1. solzh
          solzh 5 December 2017 21: 32
          +1
          THERE WAS NO SECOND DOMESTIC. There was a world, reactionary, imperialist slaughter. Read at least newspapers for the period from 1915 to 1917. The president’s opinion on this issue does not interest me, as well as your anti-Russian rhetoric
          1. Nikitin
            Nikitin 6 December 2017 09: 21
            +3
            Quote: solzh
            THERE WAS NO SECOND DOMESTIC. There was a world, reactionary, imperialist slaughter. Read at least newspapers for the period from 1915 to 1917. The president’s opinion on this issue does not interest me, as well as your anti-Russian rhetoric

            WAS. Learn History!
            And who cares about your incompetent and illiterate opinion and Your russophobia? belay request
  5. moskowit
    moskowit 3 December 2017 10: 39
    +7
    The photo collage presented at the beginning of the article misleads the reader. "George with a twig" has nothing to do with the awards of Rimma Ivanova. Moreover, he appeared in the award system of the Russian state only in July 1917 of the year ... Those who wish can find out about his status on the Internet ...
    On 24 of June 1917 of the year, the Provisional Government changed the statute of the Cross of St. George and allowed them to be awarded officers by decision of the soldiers rallies. In this case, a silver laurel branch was strengthened on the tape of the signs of the 4 and 3 degrees, a golden laurel branch on the tape of the signs of the 2 and 1 degrees. In total, about 2 of thousands of such awards were presented.



    Rimma Ivanova was awarded the Order of St. George the Victorious of the 4 degree (or class), which awarded officer ranks, while receiving the right to the hereditary nobility ...

    I hope the difference between the crosses is clear ....
    1. captain
      captain 3 December 2017 11: 01
      +5
      Thanks to the author for the article. We must know and remember our story, it is very interesting here, not always white and fluffy, but ours.
    2. Monarchist
      Monarchist 3 December 2017 16: 27
      +3
      Mosquito, as I recall in the Republic of Ingushetia, there was an order of St. George of 4 degrees and it is awarded to officers. In my opinion, the last gentleman of all 4 degrees of St. George is Miloradovich. And there was also the Order of the Badge of St. George to reward the lower ranks. Budenny had all 4 degrees and medals on the St. George ribbon5. In RIA, it was a custom that young officers did not raise their voices at the St. George Knights.
      But Rimma Ivanovo could not have an officer’s order .. More precisely, you can read in Wik
      1. moskowit
        moskowit 3 December 2017 18: 17
        +1
        Have you read a copy of the order I placed? The fact of the matter is that the rewarding of Rimma Ivanova was an exception. The feat was too extraordinary. Leading the attack, she performed the functions of commander.
        There were four people in all four degrees in the history of the Order ... These were Kutuzov, Braklai de Tolly, Dibich-Zadunaysky and Paskevich-Erivansky ... Miloradovich had two Orders, the 3 and 2 degrees ....
      2. moskowit
        moskowit 3 December 2017 19: 14
        0
        Here, here and read in your "Wik". I’m not even too lazy to provide an extract from the “wiki” .... Can you and I look at different “Wikis”? Asya ???
        For her courage in saving the wounded, she was awarded the St. George Cross of the 4 degree (insignia of the Military Order of St. George for the lower ranks) and two St. George medals. After a short vacation in August 1915, she entered the 105th Orenburg Infantry Regiment under the supervision of her brother, the regimental doctor Vladimir Ivanov.

        9 September 1915 year near the village of Wet Dubrova (now Pinsk district of the Brest region of the Republic of Belarus) during the battle of Rimm Ivanov under fire, helped the wounded. When both officers of the company were killed during the battle, she raised the company to attack and rushed to the enemy trenches. The position was taken, but Ivanova herself was mortally wounded by an explosive bullet in the thigh. She just turned 21 year. On 10 of September 1915, the funeral service for the deceased in the church of the village of Dobroslavka took place. Witnesses say that the dying Rimma managed to whisper: “Lord, save Russia” [7].

        Soon, a protest by the chairman of the Kaiser Red Cross, General Pfühl, was published in German newspapers. Referring to the Convention on the Neutrality of Medical Personnel, he emphatically stated that "it is not fitting for sisters of mercy to perform feats on the battlefield."

        By decree of Nicholas II, as an exception, Rimma Ivanova was posthumously awarded the Officer Order of St. George IV degree. She became the third woman (after the Queen of the Two Sicilies, Maria-Sofia-Amalia) and the second (after the founder) Russian citizen, awarded for 150 years of his existence, and the only female cavalier of the order awarded him posthumously.

        From the telegram of the corps commander to the Stavropol governor:

        Sovereign Emperor of 17 of September deigned to honor the memory of the late sister of mercy Rimma Mikhailovna Ivanova with the Order of St. George of the 4 degree. Despite the persuasion of the regimental doctor, officers and soldiers, Ivanov's sister always bandaged the wounded on the front line under terrible fire, and on September 9, when both officers of the 10 company of the 105 Orenburg regiment were killed, she gathered a soldier and rushed forward along with them, took the enemy trenches. Here she was mortally wounded and died, mourned by officers and soldiers. The corps with deep sorrow and condolences testifies to the respect of the family of the deceased, who raised a heroine - the sister of mercy. What please inform parents and relatives living on the street. Lermontovskoy, 28.

        - Commander of the 31 Army Corps Adjutant General Mishchenko
  6. Whispering in the night
    Whispering in the night 3 December 2017 11: 10
    +5
    Article plus, definitely. Unfortunately, in the comments, as always, there was a fly in the ointment from Ivanov, who do not remember kinship for whom the history of Russia with some fright began only in October 17th year, but in general, this is just a microscopic fly in the ointment more!
  7. Vintovkin
    Vintovkin 3 December 2017 13: 18
    +2
    Sling cutter,
    Quote: Stroporez
    Something "the light of Ivanovo" reminds

    Sling cutter,
    they are mental sisters - daughters daughters - nicholas number 2
  8. Old26
    Old26 3 December 2017 15: 18
    +3
    Quote: There was a mammoth
    Zhukov G.K. (recently his birthday was) -two St. George's Crosses, V.I. Chapaev- three St. George's Crosses, .... Did not know? Who was silent? Those historians who are now muddy the Soviet era?

    Actually, they were not silent. It was known that both of them fought on the fronts of the First World War and received awards for this. You can add here EMNIP and Semyon Mikhailovich Budyonny. Also fought in the First World War.

    As for the memory of Rimma Ivanova. Yes, there was a time they didn’t remember the heroes of that war if they later were not heroes of the Civil. Now something is gradually being returned from oblivion. The author is right. There is now a street and a memorial plaque on the building of the former Olga Gymnasium - now it is boarding school No. 36 for deaf children. Tombstone restored. There is no monument in full understanding, although a stele with its image is installed on the Alley of honorary citizens of the city of Stavropol, EMNIP

    Below is a photograph of the gymnasium where Rimma Ivanov studied and her tombstone in the fence of the Cathedral of St. Andrew the First-Called

  9. Monarchist
    Monarchist 3 December 2017 16: 01
    +3
    Quote: captain
    Quote: populist
    They are trying to supplant, or at least partially block the history of the Great Patriotic War, with the history of WWI (unknown "domestic"). And the heroes of this pseudo-domestic (PO) are trying to oust the heroes of the Great Patriotic War. To certain forces (new masters) negative this is necessary to whitewash the tsar and the White Guard, and to denigrate the revolution.

    They are trying to remind some who do not remember kinship that Russia was before October 1917. Although for people like you it was not.

    It is correctly said: Russia is more than a thousand years old (judging by the PVL!) And, and the Soviet period is only a page in its annals
    1. IS-80_RVGK2
      IS-80_RVGK2 3 December 2017 20: 03
      +2
      Quote: Monarchist
      and the Soviet period is only a page in its annals

      Nice page. Which people like you want to die out and rewrite, but you get the hell.
      1. verner1967
        verner1967 4 December 2017 12: 03
        +1
        Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
        Which people like you want to die out and rewrite, but you get the hell.

        Digged and rewrote a story such as you, and only rewrote your own three times. Now, good people are only trying to restore what was forgotten by the Bolsheviks.
        1. IS-80_RVGK2
          IS-80_RVGK2 5 December 2017 11: 08
          +2
          Quote: verner1967
          Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
          Which people like you want to die out and rewrite, but you get the hell.

          Digged and rewrote a story such as you, and only rewrote your own three times. Now, good people are only trying to restore what was forgotten by the Bolsheviks.

          Just like you and copied. Which changed colors depending on the situation. Yesterday, they sang songs for the Soviet regime, and today it is against. Political further on Lenin. Yeah, once again, people like you are misinterpreting history. Good people, yeah, well.
          1. RUSS
            RUSS 5 December 2017 17: 17
            +1
            Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
            Yesterday they sang songs for the Soviet regime, and today they are against

            The site has many members of the forum who, due to their age, simply could not physically sing Soviet songs laughing
            1. verner1967
              verner1967 5 December 2017 18: 56
              0
              Quote: RUSS
              Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
              Yesterday they sang songs for the Soviet regime, and today they are against
              The site has many members of the forum who, due to their age, simply could not physically sing

              Well, I sang, in childhood, then pink glasses were broken on my face, moreover, the same Soviet reality, and I didn’t sing these songs anymore
            2. IS-80_RVGK2
              IS-80_RVGK2 6 December 2017 19: 21
              +1
              Quote: RUSS
              The site has many members of the forum who, due to their age, simply could not physically sing Soviet songs

              You should not pretend to be more stupid than you are. smile
          2. verner1967
            verner1967 5 December 2017 18: 54
            +1
            Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
            Just like you and copied. Which changed colors depending on the situation.

            Well, yes, I especially succeeded in a short course of the CPSU (B.) laughing then I extorted portraits of Stalin and words about him, then I also acted with Khrushchev lol and even whispered to Zhukov that he mention in Brezhnev’s memoirs. Are you out of your mind? I then walked under the table while still walking under the table.
            1. IS-80_RVGK2
              IS-80_RVGK2 6 December 2017 19: 22
              +2
              Quote: verner1967
              well, yes, I especially succeeded in taking a short course of the CPSU (b) laughing, then I drew out portraits of Stalin and words about him, then I also acted with Khrushchev lol and even whispered to Zhukov to mention Brezhnev in his memoirs. Are you out of your mind? I then walked under the table while still walking under the table.

              Your age has nothing to do with it. It's about your selling point.
              1. verner1967
                verner1967 6 December 2017 20: 23
                +1
                Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                It's about your selling point.

                the selling point of those who rewrite history, so do not address, look for them among the adherents of communism
  10. groks
    groks 3 December 2017 16: 43
    +3
    Another anti-adviser ruined the memory of a good man.
    Who knows the houses of all Soviet sisters who died in the Second World War? Who wants to perpetuate the memory of them? Where are these fucking philanthropists?
  11. Severok
    Severok 3 December 2017 18: 59
    +1
    Where is Sobchak and Berkova before this national heroine ?!
  12. Nemesis
    Nemesis 3 December 2017 19: 43
    +1
    The situation in Stavropol is now generally difficult and those who come after Putin will most likely have to introduce a CTO regime there ...
  13. Whispering in the night
    Whispering in the night 3 December 2017 20: 16
    +2
    Quote: Stroporez

    I have only one question for you, based on your patriotic appeals, will our gradation be: 1st Patriotic, 2nd Patriotic and Great Patriotic?

    In chronological order, this is exactly so, in terms of the number of victims in the first place of World War II, in terms of the amount of mass heroism, all three wars are equal. What else interests you?

    And how did you miss Russian-Japanese? There is also a lot of heroism, but little use!

    I agree, there was little sense there, unlike heroism, one to one as in the Afghan war. The only difference is that they attacked us in Japan, and we invaded Afghanistan, otherwise everything seems to be the same.

    And you for the patriotic, although unreasonable knowledge of patriotism 4-, well, for history, respectively, "not set off" wink

    For the story does not set off? Well, well, as they say, and who are the judges))) laughing
    1. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter 3 December 2017 20: 34
      +2
      Quote: Whispering in the night
      In chronological order, this is exactly so, in terms of the number of victims in the first place of World War II, in terms of the amount of mass heroism, all three wars are equal. What else interests you?

      I am interested in you as a misunderstanding, or you are an obvious, sorry, “miscarriage” of the current education.
      So, my dear, that we celebrated the 4th navambram? Is there still another “domestic war”?
      Quote: Whispering in the night
      unlike heroism, one to one like in the Afghan war.

      I'm already really sad ....
      Quote: Whispering in the night
      The only difference is that they attacked us in Japan, and we invaded Afghanistan, otherwise everything seems to be the same.

      What is this? Soviet troops fulfilled their international duty. soldier Let's not touch this topic stop
      1. Whispering in the night
        Whispering in the night 3 December 2017 20: 42
        +1
        As required to prove, continuous hanging of unfounded labels. Well, the drain has been counted, dear, you begin to be rude and pass on to individuals, but this is without me, you know ...
        1. Sling cutter
          Sling cutter 3 December 2017 21: 06
          +3
          Quote: Whispering in the night
          As required to prove, continuous hanging of unfounded labels.

          So this is just the beginning, you grow up, you yourself are hanging wink
          Quote: Whispering in the night
          Well, the drain has been counted, dear, you begin to be rude and pass on to individuals, but this is without me, you know ...

          Some kind of garbage you start to play! I draw those Afghanistan map with my eyes closed about "Varyag" we sang there, we just fought for different ideologies. soldier
          Is it clear now?!
          and you, a young colleague, would recommend reading the right books!
          Among the faded candles and evening prayers,
          Among the military trophies and peaceful fires,
          Lived book children who did not know the battles,
          Disheartened by her petty catastrophes.

          Children are always annoyed by their age and life,
          And we fought to abrasions, to mortal insults,
          But the clothes were patched to our mother on time,
          We swallowed the books, getting drunk from the lines.

          Lipli hair to us on sweating foreheads,
          And sucked under the spoon sweetly from the phrases.
          And the smell of struggle circled our heads,
          From the pages of yellowed flying to us.

          And we who didn’t know wars tried to comprehend
          For a warlike cry they took the howl
          The secret of the word "order", the appointment of boundaries,
          The meaning of the attack and the clash of war chariots.

          And in the boiling cauldrons of previous wars and unrest
          So much food for our little brains
          We are on the role of traitors, cowards, Judas
          In their children's games, they assigned their enemies.

          And the villain was not allowed to cool,
          And they promised to love the most beautiful ladies,
          And having calmed friends and loving neighbors,
          We in the role of heroes introduced themselves.

          Only dreams cannot be run away for good
          A short century of fun, so much pain around.
          Try to squeeze the palms of the dead
          And take the weapons out of their worn hands.

          Test while holding a still warm sword
          And wearing armor, how much, how much ?!
          Experience who you are - a coward or chosen one of fate,
          And taste the real fight.

          And when a wounded friend collapses nearby
          And over the first loss you'll make out, grieving,
          And when you suddenly have no skin
          Because they killed him, not you.

          You will understand that you recognized, distinguished, found
          He took a grin - it’s a grin of death,
          Lies and evil, look how rude their faces are
          And always behind the crow and coffins.

          If you didn’t eat meat from a knife
          If the arms are folded, watched from above,
          But he didn’t enter the fight with the scoundrel, with the executioner,
          So in life you have nothing to do with anything.

          If the path is cut through with my father’s sword,
          You are wound with salty tears,
          If in a hot fight I experienced that how much,
          So you read the right books as a child.
          1. Whispering in the night
            Whispering in the night 4 December 2017 07: 46
            +2
            Okay, a couple more remarks, since it turned out to be so stubborn. Whether you were personally in Afghanistan or not, it’s absolutely uninteresting to me and this does not change anything in the topic of discussion, soldiers and officers who fought there exactly the same heroes as in Chechnya, as well as in the Great Patriotic War, in the same notorious Russian-Japanese or, say, now in Syria. But the little people who sent our soldiers there - old seniors and no more, they sent their sons (grandchildren, nephews, etc.) to MGIMO, and sent nine years of work and peasant offspring to a foreign, medieval, thoroughly religious country to an incomprehensible massacre is unknown for the sake of what, in the name of a mythical "international duty", socialism was built, which most Afghans did not need for nothing. Therefore, the end of that war was predictable - crawled out from there, tail tail.

            That's all, consider this morning lyrical digression ... fellow
      2. verner1967
        verner1967 4 December 2017 12: 08
        +1
        Quote: Stroporez
        Soviet troops fulfilled their international duty.

        Duty to whom? At one time, I took part in the funeral of the boys who died there, tell me, who should they? It is a pity that you did not fall into that moment the parents and relatives of the deceased with your moralizing about "international duty"
  14. Old26
    Old26 4 December 2017 08: 29
    0
    Quote: Nemesis
    The situation in Stavropol is now generally difficult and those who come after Putin will most likely have to introduce a CTO regime there ...

    And what is heavy there? In neighboring republics periodically in certain regions CTO regimes are introduced when it is necessary to drive another bandit group. But in the Stavropol Territory, is it something that requires the introduction of a CTO?
    1. verner1967
      verner1967 4 December 2017 12: 12
      +1
      Quote: Old26
      But in the Stavropol Territory, is it something that requires the introduction of a CTO?

      I don’t know if you live there or this number in your nickname says something else, but in the eastern regions of Stavropol, adjacent to Dagestan, there will soon be no Russian living
  15. Old26
    Old26 5 December 2017 12: 34
    +1
    Quote: verner1967
    Quote: Old26
    But in the Stavropol Territory, is it something that requires the introduction of a CTO?

    I don’t know if you live there or this number in your nickname says something else, but in the eastern regions of Stavropol, adjacent to Dagestan, there will soon be no Russian living

    I live. And the number in the nickname indicates exactly this - the 26th region - the Stavropol Territory.
    And in the eastern regions I often visit. A work colleague from Zhererechny (this is near Neftekumsky, almost on the border with Dagestan)) and often, when we return from a business trip to the same Dagestan, we stop at his parents for a day. Problems between residents of different nationalities have always been there, including and during the Soviet Union. Not without problems now, but to say that there is no Russian life there - IMHO is somewhat wrong. I repeat - there are problems.
    Nevertheless, in spite of everything, the Russian population there is the majority In the Neftekumsky district — about 50%, and in the Zereterechny district — 75 percent. The second largest group is really the Dagestan people — Avars and Dargins, but there are 10 percent -12 no more. Approximately the same ratio in the Kursk region. There are questions and problems, they need to be solved and solved, but I would not say that there is no Russian living there.
  16. wax
    wax 2 February 2018 18: 03
    0
    Here is the true representative to be counted among the saints!