Military Review

Trump, oil and electric cars. What threatens Tesla?

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Tesla, one of the largest and "promoted" innovative companies, is experiencing a very difficult period. In the third quarter of 2017, the leaders of the company, which ranks second on the Forbes list, reported on huge losses suffered by Tesla: 671 million dollars was lost only in 2017 year.


History Tesla take-off is inextricably linked with the growing interest in electric vehicles. Given the high prices for oil and gasoline and the growing propaganda of environmental values, electric cars became fashionable at the beginning of the XXI century, which was used by the American businessman of South African origin Ilon Musk, the creator of PayPal and Space Exploration Technologies Corporation. Although the direct founders of Tesla, named after Nikola Tesla, were Mark Tarpenning and Martin Eberhard, it is with Ilon Mask that the true success of the company is connected. Indeed, at the beginning of the company's existence, it became its largest investor, having invested millions of dollars in Tesla 70.

Trump, oil and electric cars. What threatens Tesla?


From the very beginning of the company's existence, the main project of Tesla was the production of a mass electric vehicle that would be available to a wide range of interested buyers and would gradually crowd cars. But for the realization of this goal, impressive means were required. Therefore, it was decided to first release a relatively small number of expensive sports electric cars that would be bought by wealthy people for reasons of prestige and the desire to have an unusual novelty. With the proceeds from the sale of sports cars, it was planned to launch low-cost electric cars into mass production.

In 2006, the Tesla Roadster, the company's first electric car, was presented. It was a sports electric car, launched into mass production in the 2008 year. In total, according to Ilona Mask, Tesla Roadster 1000 electric vehicles were released. The cost of a sports electric car of this model was 175 thousand dollars - not the low price, even by American standards.



Then, a cheaper, ordinary Tesla Model S electric car was put into mass production, which cost customers 40-150 thousands of dollars, depending on the specific characteristics. In 2015-2016 Tesla Model S was sold on 50 thousands of cars a year, becoming the best-selling and well-known brand of electric vehicles, not only in the United States, but also in the world as a whole. Tesla Model S appeared even in Russia, though in very limited quantities - according to some information, the number of electric cars of this brand in our country ranges from 80 to 100 copies. Tesla Model S sales were particularly effective in Norway, where the government adopted the official program of state support for electric vehicles. As a result, Tesla Model S in Norway was able to overtake even the previously very popular Volkswagen Golf in terms of sales. The demand for electric cars and the American market has increased.

The success of the Tesla Model S electric car market inspired the company and already in 2012, the Tesla Model X crossover was introduced. However, the company started to produce and sell the first problems. The start date of mass production of the crossover was gradually postponed - until the end of 2015 year. In 2016, 2400 crossovers were sold. However, 31 March 2016 was presented by Tesla Model 3. Electric five-seater sedan was the first model of the company, focused on the mass consumer. Tesla hoped that a widely advertised model would be bought by a large number of people around the world. This was facilitated by the cheap price of an electric car in the basic configuration - just 35 thousand dollars.

In principle, the company's management was not mistaken - even before the start of production of pre-orders for the Tesla Model 3, about half a million people registered. 180 thousands of people filed applications on the first day after the model’s presentation, when a reservation was opened. For the first three days, the number of orders amounted to 276 thousands. Potential buyers made a refundable deposit in the amount of 1000 dollars per vehicle to the company. However, this time there were problems of another kind - now Tesla could not organize properly the production of the ordered models. Although the company first claimed that the 2017 of thousands of Tesla Model 20s would be released on December 3 of the year, by October 2017 only 360 of ready-made electric vehicles appeared.



What happened and why exactly did Tesla find itself in such a difficult situation? First of all, a huge number of applications for a budget model of an electric car obviously caught the company off guard. Although the Tesla management assumed that the latest model would be very popular, it clearly did not count on half a million applications. It turned out that the company's production facilities are clearly not ready for this task.

The Gigafactory plant in Nevada, which produces batteries for Tesla electric vehicles, was simply unable to release the right amount of batteries at an accelerated pace. Ilon Mask also did not fail to criticize the contractors, but criticizing the case will not help. The company will have to work hard to arrange the release of batteries in the required quantity. Moreover, it is unlikely to be done at an accelerated pace and in the foreseeable future.

Unlike traditional car concerns, whose production policy has been evolving for decades, Tesla is new to the market. Therefore, many of its processes are not established, including interaction with companies - contractors responsible for certain areas of work. Until recently, Tesla has never worked in the segment of budget machines, which is distinguished by its specificity. A budget car is not an expensive sports model, or even a crossover. The production of budget cars differs in mass and scale, and the company has turned out to be unprepared for their provision. And this is despite the fact that the American state in 2008-2014 allocated serious resources to support the company Ilona Mask. Moreover, the concept of the gradual abandonment of internal combustion engines at some point called into question the activities of the giants of the American automobile industry, but then everything returned to normal.

Although Ilon Mask promises to solve all the problems of the company as soon as possible and by March 2018 of the year to bring the production of low-cost electric cars to the level of 5000 machines per week, few people believe in it. Especially against the background of other problems that Tesla has now encountered. The first problem is the appearance in perspective of a very serious and reputable competitor. Recently, Volvo representatives said that by the year 2019 they intend to completely reformat production and reorient themselves to electric cars and hybrid cars. This news in June 2017 of the year led to the fact that the cost of Tesla securities has seriously decreased.

The company's market value has fallen in price on 10 billion dollars - and experts believe that this is only the beginning of the crisis of the brainchild Ilona Mask. After all, Volvo is a very serious competitor, and the very name of this company decades ago became a real brand and a sign of quality. Opel said about the transition to the production of electric cars and hybrid cars by the 2024 year, but if there is still time before the 2024 year, Volvo plans to switch to mass production of cars almost a year later and this will inevitably affect Tesla's future future.

The second problem is that the company Ilona Mask already has serious problems with money. In the second quarter of 2017, Tesla spent 1,2 billion dollars in proceeds from the shares. The sale of bonds for the production of the latest model allowed the company to get 1,8 billion dollars, but the obligations on pre-orders must be fulfilled. In the meantime, as analysts have calculated, in order to fulfill obligations to half a million buyers, Tesla will need 50 years - because by the end of the year, the company will be able to assemble only 2500 vehicles. To fulfill the obligations, in turn, it is necessary to intensify production, attracting additional funds. Where to get them? - this is the question that today is very seriously facing the management of the company.

Until recently, Tesla, although experiencing serious financial problems, was able to overcome them and go "dry out of the water" thanks to appropriate government policies. Lawyer Tamerlan Barziev says that now the US Republican Party is in favor of large-scale reform of US tax legislation. In particular, it is planned to cancel the existing tax rebate for the purchase of electric vehicles, which encouraged Americans to buy Tesla. By taxing electric vehicles, we are concerned, by the way, in other countries, for example, in Norway. According to Barziev, the tax on electric cars was also included in the budget of this country for 2018 a year.

In the United States, until recently, the buyer, having purchased an electric car, could apply for and return several months after the purchase, 7500 dollars from taxes paid. However, when Tesla announced that it plans to produce half a million cars, the American leadership was worried - after all, as a tax deduction, buyers would have to return hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars. No budget is enough. Therefore, the Republican Party and lobbying for the abolition of the tax rebate, despite the fact that the bulk of the American auto companies and electric cars, is going in every way to counteract the forthcoming cancellation of the discount.

Thus, we see that buying an electric car is no longer so beneficial for an ordinary buyer in the United States. True, Tesla has recently become increasingly active in Europe, where in the foreseeable future they are going to gradually restrict and then completely ban internal combustion engines. But even in countries such as Norway, which previously created the most favored mode for electric vehicles, the tax policy for innovative cars is gradually changing.

The likelihood and receipt of state aid decreases. According to lawyer Andrei Lisov, the relatively long-term success of Tesla was largely due to government support. Ilon Musk, who has gained worldwide fame as a successful businessman, has in fact always actively used the advantages of a private-public partnership. So, Tesla Motors and a number of other Mask companies received about $ 4,9 billion from the US budget. This is very serious money. If changes in tax legislation are adopted, Lisov believes, then Ilona Mask will be dealt a serious blow to the empire.



The Tesla crisis is aggravated by the personal position of the current US President Donald Trump. It is known that Donald Trump is very skeptical of electric cars and calls into question the need for a massive transition from cars to electric cars. From the point of view of Trump, the United States should not abandon the use of oil, and in calls for a transition to electric cars, Trump sees the hand of China - the main economic opponent of the United States. Even before his election, the new US president questioned the need to limit carbon dioxide emissions to the atmosphere.

According to Trump, the harmful effects of emissions are seriously exaggerated, which means that there is no need to either abandon gasoline engines or stimulate the production and sale of electric vehicles. If Trump's predecessor Barack Obama supported the allocation of almost 5 billions of dollars from the US budget for Tesla, then Trump has already made it clear that with him Ilon Mask should not count on such large-scale state support. In fact, Trump's position means that the time for the final replacement of cars with electric vehicles is shifted by 15-20 years. In these conditions, those companies that will be able to successfully combine the production of cars with internal combustion engines and electric vehicles will benefit. But Tesla, which does not produce traditional cars, does not belong to such companies and immediately loses competition with the giants of the American and European automotive industry.

If for the European Union the transition to electric cars is a way to gradually reduce its dependence on the supply of oil and gas from Russia, then for the US there is no particular benefit. After all, Donald Trump promised to turn the United States into an exporter of oil and gas, removing the restrictions that impede oil and gas production on American territory. Thus, the transition to electric and hybrid engines for the United States, in the context of Trump's new policy, is no longer a necessity. So, it’s almost meaningless to support the existence of the company Ilona Musk for Washington for state money.
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  1. avt
    avt 28 November 2017 15: 27 New
    14
    The second problem is that the company Elon Mask has already had serious problems with money. In the second quarter of 2017, Tesla spent $ 1,2 billion in revenue from stocks.
    bully Actually, this is the first and only problem - the financial pyramid, furnished as a company with “breakthrough technologies”, well, it’s breaking.
    1. Sergey-svs
      Sergey-svs 28 November 2017 16: 03 New
      +6
      Quote: avt
      Actually, this is the first and only problem - the financial pyramid, furnished as a company with “breakthrough technologies”, well, it’s breaking.

      That's right, he’s still a scumbag! yes But we must give him his due, he managed to beautifully breed the "big-big kids" into his "new vasyuki"! good And at our liberal "start-ups and vapers", Musk is a living icon for prayers and worship! fool
      laughing laughing laughing
    2. mirag2
      mirag2 28 November 2017 16: 08 New
      +3
      The problem in my opinion lies in the "new marketing policy" to sell an old, well-known product at exorbitant prices.))) Like a startup Juicer. Essentially a controlled machine that pours juice. $ 400
      "Do you need a $ 400 juicer?" Now pay not for the goods yourself, but for what he can do:
      1. protoss
        protoss 29 November 2017 01: 15 New
        0
        juicer for 400 tanks? how do you like coffee machines for 10-15 thousand?
    3. Do not care
      Do not care 29 November 2017 02: 39 New
      0
      Salvage defeats evil.
    4. Dead duck
      Dead duck 29 November 2017 13: 22 New
      +7
      Quote: avt
      Actually, this is the first and only problem - the financial pyramid

      well, not only that ... it was originally a grand scam with the consent and support of the government.
      although many Mask lovers still don’t believe it ... believe only in his "genius." request
    5. mutantik83
      mutantik83 29 November 2017 13: 32 New
      +1
      It has long been predicted this failure. Well, with the car there was at least some sort of perspective, but with his rocket, it’s a bluff!
    6. Plate
      Plate 1 December 2017 21: 42 New
      0
      Actually, this is the first and only problem - the financial pyramid, furnished as a company with “breakthrough technologies”, well, it’s breaking.

      It’s a pity that in the event of the collapse of this pyramid, people will probably have a negative attitude towards all electric vehicles ...
  2. gridasov
    gridasov 28 November 2017 15: 43 New
    +2
    The most obvious already in the first line of the article is that this is the most hyped company. So this is another “soap bubble”. There is no breakthrough innovation in it and it does not smell. Because there is no fundamental basis for all of his developments. It is impossible not to say. that his company really uses advanced technologies, but not breakthroughs, and this is a huge difference in concepts. And the fact that the profitability of the company is not comparable with investments is obvious as a white day. It means that the company is financed from other very financially intensive sources, which means that everything is "inflated". The question is different - what do they count on or simply delay time for the development of other innovative projects not advertised.
  3. Chertt
    Chertt 28 November 2017 15: 44 New
    +3
    Another dummy, in vain only the name of such a great scientist was battered
  4. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 28 November 2017 15: 53 New
    +1
    "Sit transit Gloria Mundi" ... And SpaceX? Will it follow?
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 28 November 2017 18: 44 New
      +1
      SpaceX will not follow, because there are no competitors on the horizon.
      1. Berkut-UA
        Berkut-UA 28 November 2017 21: 56 New
        +1
        It is very likely that it will do the same.
        After all, the whole "charm" of these "new developments" of the rocket is that it returned back.
        That is ... like shuttles, to be able to use again and again.
        And although there were successful returns of missiles, but their hulls were NOT USED a second time.
        That is - what is the point of returning the rocket body back to Earth ...?
        1. forty-eighth
          forty-eighth 29 November 2017 10: 23 New
          +1
          Quote: Berkut-UA
          all the "charm" of these "new developments" rocket

          All the charm is that the cost of putting a satellite into orbit is less than that of competitors. Everything else is lyrics.
          The customer is guaranteed an inexpensive insured satellite launch to the desired orbit, the money paid, the rest of the serious people do not care. Let Musk drag him into space even with his personal bicycle.
          Well, the fact that he simultaneously conducts his experiments while rendering services, is rational and economical. It is possible to make a launch in such a way as to return a step - it returns. Fails - one-time media starts.
          Все.
          1. gridasov
            gridasov 29 November 2017 19: 03 New
            +1
            Here you are deeply mistaken. Technology The satellite launch mask is a step backward. Why? Because it is a light rocket with low useful weight. And everyone knows that reducing the cost of flights depends on the ability to increase the payload that is being launched into space.
            1. Vadim237
              Vadim237 30 November 2017 00: 43 New
              +1
              "This is a light rocket with low useful weight" - In general, it is a heavy rocket launcher with a maximum load of 22 tons. At the end of this year, they will launch 63 tons. Cost is reduced due to the return and reuse of the first stage, which costs half the cost of the entire rocket.
              1. gridasov
                gridasov 30 November 2017 01: 12 New
                0
                The question is not in the tons themselves. This concept is somewhat relative. The question is that there is a limit mass that can be torn off the ground and dispersed. And this must be realized that, based on the principles that are now applicable, these restrictions do not make it possible to create really cost-effective flights into the near space. Therefore, we focus on this aspect. Understand that the same turbo-fuel superchargers have a problem, that they cannot scale indefinitely and increase productivity. But the fuel itself does not ignite. Remember me that the very same large aircraft engine GE9X, if I am not mistaken, will bring a new disaster. With such a radius of the blades, centrifugal forces reach such forces, and EMF is formed in the blades themselves that they simply scatter. The quality factor drops by orders of magnitude. And new materials cannot solve this. We need new design solutions with an understanding of the essence of physical processes. This is what I mean.
          2. Berkut-UA
            Berkut-UA 1 December 2017 23: 51 New
            0
            I agree
            that the cost of putting a satellite into orbit is less than that of competitors
            . But so far, only the first launch (in July of this year) with the reuse of a carrier rocket has been completed. And whether they can still use it is a question. And you noticed correctly -
            The customer is guaranteed an inexpensive insured satellite launch to the desired orbit, the money paid, the rest of the serious people do not care.

            Musk can and does take from the client an amount that is less than that of the Russians or the French, BUT ... this does not say how much the launches and the full check of the returned missiles cost him.
            After all, it is a fact that behind it (behind Mask) are government organizations with billions of budgets.
            Let's wait for the promised launch in December .... which rocket they will launch ...
  5. Stirbjorn
    Stirbjorn 28 November 2017 16: 07 New
    0
    In fact, Trump's position means that the time for the final replacement of cars with electric cars is shifted by 15-20 years.
    Well, let's say Tesla incurs losses, but Volvo is entering the market, and China is behind it - and no Trump-Pump decree! The era of electric vehicles is on the verge, progress cannot be stopped, and all our nanotechnologists and lovers of digital economies should keep up with it. Would take and buy this Tesly, with all the technology, instead of investing petrodollars in US debt bonds
    1. Blackmokona
      Blackmokona 28 November 2017 16: 42 New
      +1
      Tesla is now worth over 53 billion dollars, to say the least expensive.
      https://m.ru.investing.com/equities/tesla-motors
    2. Bakht
      Bakht 28 November 2017 16: 43 New
      +4
      The era of electric vehicles on the doorstep?
      Maybe. But how much oil does electric vehicles need? Didn’t Elon Musk and electric car enthusiasts think about this? Even alternative energy sources require a huge amount of hydrocarbons. Gradual replacement of cars is possible. But only if energy sources using hydrogen fuel are launched. Or some other revolutionary technology.
      1. Blackmokona
        Blackmokona 28 November 2017 16: 58 New
        0
        About 2 times less than conventional cars, due to the higher efficiency of power plants and electric motors.
        1. Bakht
          Bakht 28 November 2017 17: 23 New
          +6
          Approximately 0,25% less. Given the energy costs of producing batteries, it’s all a storm in a glass of water. Modern electric cars are the same cars that consume hydrocarbons from the outlet. While more promising are hybrid engines.
          1. Blackmokona
            Blackmokona 28 November 2017 19: 02 New
            0
            A hybrid is an electric car with an internal combustion engine, an internal combustion engine is an extra element
        2. Lopatov
          Lopatov 28 November 2017 21: 59 New
          +1
          Quote: BlackMokona
          About 2 times less than conventional cars, due to the higher efficiency of power plants and electric motors.

          Even lithium is obtained, and then electrolysis is necessary.
          1. Bakht
            Bakht 29 November 2017 10: 44 New
            0
            That's right. The production of lithium batteries is an expensive pleasure. And it requires energy. I do not touch upon the disposal of lithium batteries. This is a huge problem. We sent hundreds of used batteries to the factory. And it’s impossible by plane. By land only. And it was a lot of fun. Oh how a lot
            In general, the electric car Mask has ironically called "a bunch of Chinese batteries in expensive packaging"
            http://autotesla.ru/auto-tesla/akkumulyatory-tesl
            a / akkumulyator-tesla-model-s-chto-vnutri-razbirae
            m.html
            Well, the cost of a new brainchild Mask: batteries for the home
            https://www.iphones.ru/iNotes/444206
            The cost will decrease - you can talk about something.
            1. gridasov
              gridasov 29 November 2017 18: 59 New
              0
              Here you are about the problem of recycling batteries, but you know that Musk and his scientists have patented the principles of the location of a large number of such small batteries. And already only it costs all the money spent by him. True, they do not fully understand all the laws of such an effect. But the fact that they are on the road to success and one step ahead of others is an indisputable fact
              1. Bakht
                Bakht 29 November 2017 19: 31 New
                0
                Hydrocarbons are a non-renewable resource. "Drowning with oil is like drowning with bank notes." Of course, it is attractive to have some kind of environmentally friendly source of energy. But it so happened that in the 20th century "intelligent man" became "oil man." Today, every inhabitant of the planet Earth consumes 2,5 liters of oil daily. Or even more. As much as man and water need. For example, printing this message, I spent 2-3 grams of oil. This is the reality today. There will be a breakthrough in electric power - there will be an electric car. In the meantime, this toy is ineffective. This is an indisputable fact.
              2. Gorbatiy
                Gorbatiy 2 December 2017 10: 54 New
                0
                Musk and his scientists have patented the principles of the location of a large number of such small batteries - what does it mean? What and what is the gain from this? What tasks does this principle solve?
                1. gridasov
                  gridasov 2 December 2017 12: 22 New
                  0
                  [quote = Gorbatiy] What and what is the gain from this? What tasks does this principle solve?
                  Reply Quote Complaint
                  There are tasks of creating hyper-speed aircraft, electromagnetic guns and lasers. There is the problem of the Hadron Collider as an ale accelerator. particles. And many more tasks. All these problems require one fundamental solution of the physical problem lying in the plan. This is the task of obtaining high and ultra-high energy density. But the essence of this energy density lies in the technology for organizing the movement of magnetic force flows, which are the basis. That is, specifically on a given question, it can be said that rechargeable batteries in the form in which they are used now cannot provide a high energy density because it is very difficult to control the "packing" of magnetic power flows. What does it mean . It’s simple if you place one such as a capacitor in another, or one battery in another, you can get ultra-high density of magnetic fluxes already at a few steps., But the most important thing is that there will be no breakdown to the ground and whether other parts of the circuit. And this new device can be included in the circuit as series-connected parts of one device or in parallel. And when the scientists of Mask packed the batteries into the system, they noticed patterns in the effect of radially arranged groups of batteries on their operation both inside the system and in the external part. That is, the entire battery arrangement system must be fractal, just like modern radars are created. Such typesetting systems have certain limits when they can create problems for the operation of other electronic devices operating in the magnetic field of such typesetting batteries. And what’s more important, the magnetic force fluxes have several vectors, which means that it is possible to intensify the work of such systems by strengthening either the longitudinal vectors of the magnetic fluxes or the spin and break-in ones. In general, I think that Mask does not have the theoretical foundations of such technologies, but they noticed certain effects and therefore patented some of these principles.
      2. gridasov
        gridasov 28 November 2017 17: 21 New
        +3
        Ask any high-profile physicist about which key problem and its solution can determine the breakthrough of all science? The answer is quite obvious that this is a “SPIN” technology. And what is spin technology. These are simple technologies for using a rotating magnetic flux and, most importantly, methods for transforming linear vectors into these rotating processes and their harmonious combination. But it is these technologies that determine the breakthrough in the creation of new electric machines on rotating magnetic fluxes and their break-in moments, which will make it possible to create both DC transformers and closed electric. contours in one device. which means that in one device both the engine and the current generator. Therefore, today MASK is worth 60 billion. and tomorrow it’s zero .. And these technologies are in Russia. True, they do not yet believe in them, but in fact they already exist. And the question is a very short time to start these technologists to master and implement. And then the whole blown pyramid will collapse. Therefore, all other conversations are a waste of energy. You need to know and understand the key problems and know the solutions in the field of basic sciences in order to know where the sources of solutions to global problems are.
        1. Gorbatiy
          Gorbatiy 2 December 2017 10: 58 New
          0
          You need to know and understand the key problems and know the solutions in the field of basic sciences in order to know where the origins of solving global problems - quite rightly noticed. And everything else that is written before is about - which means that in one device both the engine and the current generator[b] [/ b] - the desire to seem like a know-it-all. You do not understand what you are writing.
          1. gridasov
            gridasov 2 December 2017 12: 28 New
            0
            Ie you dear want to say that I look like a kind of inadequate person who just likes to position himself among others? And at the same time I can not answer and show such devices to others if the opportunity arises? This can only mean that it is you and not me who are looking stupid, because if you realize that there are problems, and someone positions them as a solver, then why not just establish normal contact with this person. And do not argue on the grounds of coffee, much less express yourself so tactlessly, as if you could be in “my own skin” Responsible for yourself, and not for others. This is a sign of bad taste at all.
      3. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 29 November 2017 02: 05 New
        +1
        Quote: Bakht
        Even alternative energy sources require a huge amount of hydrocarbons. Gradual replacement of cars is possible. But only if energy sources using hydrogen fuel are launched. Or some other revolutionary technology.

        Fir-trees!? Do nuclear power plants require a "huge amount of hydrocarbons"? belay How is that? request Electric cars require "electricity", and how it is obtained: "from hydrocarbons," or "vigorously" is already "secondary-tertiary"!
        1. Bakht
          Bakht 29 November 2017 10: 49 New
          +1
          Electricity is obtained in many ways. If Europe wants to transfer to electric cars, then do not close the nuclear power plant. In 10 years, you can forget about energy from nuclear power plants in Europe. Ecological energy (windmills, solar panels) is still not such a large percentage.
          According to the World Energy Agency, production is distributed as follows
          Coal, oil, gas - 65% of all generated electricity
          Atom, renewable, hydro - 35%
          1. Nikolaevich I
            Nikolaevich I 29 November 2017 11: 46 New
            +1
            Quote: Bakht
            Electricity is obtained in many ways.

            Quote: Bakht
            Coal, oil, gas - 65% of all generated electricity
            Atom, renewable, hydro - 35%

            Actually, yes ... "electricity" is also worth the money! “Hydrocarbon” is more expensive; “vigorous” can cost much cheaper ... Many curious scientists say that you still can’t do without a nuclear power plant! NPPs are potential sources of cheap electricity ... and the "engines" of progress in electric vehicles! Better than mountains can only be mountains .... better than nuclear power plants can only be Nuclear Power Plant!
            1. Bakht
              Bakht 29 November 2017 15: 18 New
              0
              I am not against nuclear power plants. But Europe closes them. As the GDP said, "And what will you drown with?"
              1. Nikolaevich I
                Nikolaevich I 30 November 2017 02: 22 New
                +1
                So, these are the problems of Europe! We don’t have our own problems to worry about Europe too? Russia is ready to help its neighbors, but if they, like those whales, "climb the land" anyway ... then what can we do !?
          2. jjj
            jjj 29 November 2017 11: 46 New
            0
            In about ten years, we will pull power lines to the old woman-Europe and sell kilowatt hours
          3. gridasov
            gridasov 30 November 2017 12: 40 New
            +1
            Believe it or not, we invented a completely new type of energy reproduction.
        2. kotdavin4i
          kotdavin4i 29 November 2017 11: 43 New
          0
          Quote: Nikolaevich I
          Do nuclear power plants require a "huge amount of hydrocarbons"?

          Good day, nuclear energy currently provides only - 17% of electricity production - the rest is mainly hydrocarbons, but now imagine all the automobile transport in the world will switch over instantly to electricity - how much will nuclear plants give? how many weeks will you stand in line to charge your car?
          1. Krabik
            Krabik 30 November 2017 18: 38 New
            0
            It is not necessary to do everything instantly.
            For example,% of nuclear power generation can be increased gradually and gradually switch to electric cars.

            For example, in warm places, you can gradually introduce electric vehicles in urban areas, like trams, electric trains, the metro, and little by little make parking spots with possible recharging of electric vehicles.
      4. Maksim_ms
        Maksim_ms 23 December 2017 15: 34 New
        0
        What do you dislike about nuclear power plants? Do not smoke runs 100 without refueling.
    3. dvvv
      dvvv 28 November 2017 17: 07 New
      +1
      As I recall, Volvo was bought by the Ketais long ago and they produce electric cars more than the Americans in their country. So nothing shines in the Mask in this regard: Ketais fill their sector of electric vehicles with money and are able to make batteries and photo cells themselves and they have a huge market and government support at the domestic policy level. Everything will be canceled by tax breaks, because the automobile industry and transport are a cash cow of the budget of any country and while the circulation of electric cars is small, you can play in the environment, and when the circulation goes to millions a year, the tax will automatically be transferred from gasoline cars to electric cars.
      1. gridasov
        gridasov 28 November 2017 17: 55 New
        +1
        Correctly ! It will be so. But! This is the immediate prospect, and since the dynamics of events is only increasing, it is worth looking into the average level of prospects. After all, all technologies have a residual negative process. That is, the same lithium batteries require the same exhaustible raw materials. So this will pull a lot of effects that remain unsolvable. It is impossible to search endlessly for solutions only using new materials; new methods for solving problems are also needed. This is the construction of new physical processes on new algorithms for their sequence.
    4. Alf
      Alf 28 November 2017 19: 46 New
      +1
      Quote: Stirbjorn
      Would take and buy this Tesly, with all the technology, instead of investing petrodollars in US debt bonds

      Who will sell it? Several years ago, Gaz wanted to buy Opel, which at that time was in deep ... ne. So what ? As soon as the question reached the finish race, the deal was canceled, and as they say now, “using the administrative resource”.
    5. kuznec
      kuznec 29 November 2017 05: 02 New
      +4
      There are no special technologies in Tesla. A battery like in your phone and an electric motor are nothing breakthrough. And the environmental friendliness of electric cars is also a myth. The fact is that 1 watt-hour of energy consumed by a Model S electric car, for example, is equivalent to 0,5 grams of CO2. The Tesla Model S P90D spends 444 watt-hours per kilometer of road, which corresponds to 222 grams of CO2. Because electricity is received to charge the battery by burning hydrocarbons. About the same as an average car with an internal combustion engine and fuel consumption of about 10 l / 100 km.
      But now such an expense is a rarity. Turbocharged and hybrid cars will not surprise with a consumption of 3-5 liters. per 100 km.
      In addition, the production and disposal of batteries are also extremely environmentally friendly. Especially disposal is also very expensive. Unlike ordinary cars - there is almost one metal.
      And in our country, where temperatures are negative for half a year, the battery loses capacity catastrophically quickly. I heard a report on the radio - in winter in Moscow Model S with a driver and 3 passengers at -12 "overboard" with the heating turned on "died" in traffic in 20 minutes or something. Or so. Lithium-ion batteries are afraid of freezing temperatures. According to the instructions - not lower than 0.
      So you don’t need to buy Tesla - this company is just marketing, not breakthrough technology.
      1. Bakht
        Bakht 29 November 2017 10: 53 New
        0
        According to the instructions - not lower than 0

        Super. In front of my eyes, a device with lithium batteries died at a temperature of -3 Celsius. In one minute with 7 volts it showed ... nothing at all. The device died and went to the factory. Not subject to repair.
  6. Fox
    Fox 28 November 2017 18: 00 New
    +1
    allowance, how to make “miracle-miraculous” for HUGE grandmothers and breed suckers on it like rabbits from the old automobile assembly plants of Toyota and Chinese batteries with the hands of robots “sanchez” and “rodriguez”.
  7. Ierarh
    Ierarh 28 November 2017 18: 08 New
    +3
    Quote: gridasov
    Ask any high-profile physicist about which key problem and its solution can determine the breakthrough of all science? The answer is quite obvious that this is a “SPIN” technology. And what is spin technology. These are simple technologies for using a rotating magnetic flux and, most importantly, methods for transforming linear vectors into these rotating processes and their harmonious combination. But it is these technologies that determine the breakthrough in the creation of new electric machines on rotating magnetic fluxes and their break-in moments, which will make it possible to create both DC transformers and closed electric. contours in one device. which means that in one device both the engine and the current generator. Therefore, today MASK is worth 60 billion. and tomorrow it’s zero .. And these technologies are in Russia. True, they do not yet believe in them, but in fact they already exist. And the question is a very short time to start these technologists to master and implement. And then the whole blown pyramid will collapse. Therefore, all other conversations are a waste of energy. You need to know and understand the key problems and know the solutions in the field of basic sciences in order to know where the sources of solutions to global problems are.

    What is this? Pseudoscientific Text Generator? In common parlance, a "delusional generator" ...
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 28 November 2017 18: 48 New
      +1
      No, this is a spatial WARP - a tunnel that takes us to a different dimension, with different laws of physics.
    2. gridasov
      gridasov 28 November 2017 20: 53 New
      0
      So you want to say that nuclear physicists all over the world discuss pseudoscientific ideas everywhere!? Trying to understand the behavior of elementary particles. In addition, I only stated the fact of what is happening. I have not said anything about our ideas and specific theories and developments.
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 29 November 2017 18: 40 New
        +1
        No, you simply state everything, as in quantum physics - where everything is not defined.
        1. gridasov
          gridasov 29 November 2017 18: 54 New
          0
          Just the same, everything should be absolutely clearly defined. But no one wants to hear about the function of a constant value of a number and the method of working with big data on these properties of a number. No one wants to understand. that the magnetic field is complete uncertainty, and now the magnetic force flows are already specifics and the accuracy of determining them both by vector and potential. Etc . Mathematicians are not able to express quantitative definitions in integer values, and therefore can not give an exact definition of the same quantum. In general, photons, quanta are far-fetched names, and there must be precise definitions of these levels of interaction. . Therefore, the concept of "SPINE" everyone is afraid as a trait, and yet this is the basis of any movement. Well etc
  8. Scopolamine
    Scopolamine 28 November 2017 19: 19 New
    +1
    The electric car is still disadvantageous to the public sector. If you calculate the price of batteries that will have to be changed after 5 years, then the price of the car at the time of its exchange for the next new car will be small due to the necessary financial investments. Only if leasing an electric car, as well as German car trash, they take 99% of leasing in America because the Germans are very much falling in price and poorly sold after 5 years due to very expensive repairs. Therefore, while cheap Toyota or a similar rice truck is still cheaper to operate than electric. This is considering all the subsidies from the Canadian budget for electric cars.
    The excitement around the electric car was created in order to drive investors' money into another bubble and collapse it there. It is useful for the Americana empire to avoid inflation and ostentatious GDP growth.
    1. gridasov
      gridasov 29 November 2017 00: 13 New
      +1
      I will tell you more that the same German cars have a double selling price. The scheme is simple but ingenious. First, it is sold at a high price corresponding to consumer opportunities in the country of the manufacturer, and, accordingly, banking services. And at the same time, a complex of warranty service services is created. But. after several years, it is already sold in third countries and has an additional profit. Just in other system areas. Therefore, the park is constantly being updated and workers are being used, which is used to solve fundamental problems in the form of combating unemployment, etc. This means that the West just needs countries like Ukraine and others, in which there is no legal order. Electric cars financially seem to me generally not yet profitable. They are simpler and simply more durable., And therefore plans for profit from their production and sales need to be adjusted. Which is not so simple.
    2. Skarpzd
      Skarpzd 29 November 2017 03: 45 New
      0
      Well, why is it unprofitable? For example - Nissan Leaf. The perfect electric car for the city.
      1. gridasov
        gridasov 29 November 2017 11: 09 New
        0
        t, of course, and personally I really like the toy. But I just thought this way if I were in the shoes of the financial magnates who rule the world. That is, you need to carefully develop these new technologies. After all, money has already been invested in old ICE production technologies. And they are simply obliged to make a profit.
  9. vvnab
    vvnab 28 November 2017 20: 27 New
    +2
    Musk is not the creator of PayPal
  10. Altona
    Altona 28 November 2017 20: 27 New
    +2
    Quote: Stirbjorn
    Would take and buy this Tesly, with all the technology, instead of investing petrodollars in US debt bonds

    ------------------------------------------------
    What for? Was the ё-mobile not enough?
    1. gridasov
      gridasov 28 November 2017 20: 55 New
      +1
      Do not forget that you can buy technology, but the culture of production is definitely impossible.
      1. Scopolamine
        Scopolamine 28 November 2017 21: 27 New
        +1
        Production, like its culture, is an endangered exotic in the USA. Therefore, the abandoned LM Toyota workshops in California for this project, Ilon Mask, came at the very time.
        1. gridasov
          gridasov 28 November 2017 22: 30 New
          0
          I don’t think so. that you are right. In the intricacies of production lies a lot, which ultimately manifests itself in the speed of production of a unit of production. In these subtleties are the processes of re-equipment of production for new products and much more. Therefore, without moving away from the topic and specifically the production of electrical power plants, I will tell you directly that the so-called lap winding has a number of drawbacks. , and this means that each turn must be considered and from the slightest change in dimension, for example in diameter, the entire final operation of the devices changes. Ask for example the same rewinders. And they will answer that the same technology, for example, by rewinding to “SLAVYANKA”, gives completely different final results on the operation of motors or generators, etc. But they don’t understand this. They do not delve into the intricacies, but the calculations have, or rather, not simple calculations, but the processes of modeling magnetic force flows, fundamental importance. After all, what did Musk catch on when creating electric cars? It is for motors on a rotating magnetic flux. By the way, the Russians made significant progress in this process and created email. motors on printed ring stators earlier than them. But the essence is completely simple and laid down by Tesla. But the main thing is that no one came to the main thing how to form a magnetic flux in such a way that the effects of superconductivity in the conductors are identical to the work of a new induction coil. But then the concept of building email. motor changes fundamentally. Therefore, Musk set the prospect, and American scientists and engineers did not justify the trust. And the priority remained in Russia.
          1. Scopolamine
            Scopolamine 28 November 2017 23: 32 New
            0
            You, as a scientist, are closer to the technical side, but I see a financial and propaganda need. Uncle Shmul needs to burn the "hot dollars" of the trade and budget deficit. Therefore, gullible pinocchio with dough must be persuaded to invest and then shrug. So the US economy works, every 7-10 years they collect extra money into a bubble and burn it. among other things, and advanced technology if possible.
            Well, Mr. Trump promised voters "make America great again." Here Musk is in his hand, otherwise, alas, everything is pale without innovation. Lemming needs to pray for someone.
            1. gridasov
              gridasov 28 November 2017 23: 59 New
              0
              You are absolutely right in the fact that smart people with leverage in managing massive economies understand that they need no revolution in any field. However, they understand that the development of the entire aggregate industrial world cannot be stopped. Therefore, innovation is needed as an incentive to still support movement and development. But on the other hand, processes must be absolutely manageable and controllable. But!!! There are contradictions. which underlie our reason that sooner or later, revolutionary, and sometimes even more fundamental breakthrough scientific discoveries take place. And it is simply necessary that there be a new foundation for development for hundreds of years. After all, scientists understand that now all the technological achievements are based on discoveries and inventions on the foundation of the nineteenth century and the beginning of the twentieth. And in order to make a breakthrough into the space of higher potential and physical and informational processes, new fundamental discoveries and solutions are needed, namely in science. Look, after all, we said a long time ago that the creation of heavy missiles is impossible for a complex of objective reasons and we call these reasons. However, customers' applications do not correspond primarily to the development of science, which means they will not fly in a new heavier weight. They don’t want to listen to us. So, a temporary process of understanding will have to go through, that you need to look for radically new solutions that are now simply ignored. As a result, I repeat again and again that the time has come to work with information as raw materials and without emotions, and therefore consider reality as reality, but also as a stage in the algorithmic development process. And for this, mathematicians will have to agree that we need new methods for analyzing capacious and highly dynamic processes that can be based on new properties of numbers or simply on new mathematical technologies. But for now, everyone thinks that using a variable number function is an exhaustive potential of the foundation of mathematics and the only mathematical technology of analysis.,
      2. V. Ushakov
        V. Ushakov 29 November 2017 07: 00 New
        +1
        "Culture of production", it is commonplace - this is when the hands grow from where it is needed.
        In this genetic circumstance - the whole "culture of production."
      3. Bakht
        Bakht 29 November 2017 11: 00 New
        +1
        Yes, the production culture is very cool.
        Picture from life. 1997, Houston. Accelerometer Sensor Factory. A long conveyor and a bunch of workers. Vietnamese and Chinese. One American is the chef. I ask the employee "at what minimum sensitivity value the device is rejected." The American runs up. Literally, "They will not tell you anything, because no one speaks English. The technique is simple. Each worker has a computer. Rather, the display. You connect the device. If the screen lights up in green, then it is suitable, if red, it’s worth it." That's the whole production culture.
        1. gridasov
          gridasov 29 November 2017 20: 04 New
          +1
          This is not a manifestation of a production culture. This is a technology to combat information leakage.
  11. iouris
    iouris 29 November 2017 01: 35 New
    0
    I clearly know that lowering the ambient temperature means a sharp decrease in the effective capacity of the battery and increasing its internal resistance. A car’s traction battery has a huge cost, a lot of weight, a low service life, and battery disposal is a huge unsolvable problem (even batteries and light bulbs in the Russian Federation are not disposed of), but simply disperse throughout the territory.
    1. gridasov
      gridasov 29 November 2017 11: 06 New
      0
      A little distracted from the topic and, so to speak, fantasize unscientific. Electromagnetic circuits are not only linear and artificial, which we create as electrical circuits. Natural electrical circuits are radial, i.e. spatial. Therefore, a decrease in the temperature of the surrounding natural space can be considered as a process of compaction of radial magnetic fluxes. This means that the batteries are discharged and lose capacity for a completely objective reason. Even many of the abnormal effects associated with UFOs suggest that they own the technology of precisely managing the potential of space. Or recall experiments with changing the potential of iron objects during a thunderstorm. But!! All this also means that you can charge the batteries with a certain mechanism. And the mechanism is not so complicated. By the way, Tesla coils are also used to disorganize the electrical circuits of cars and other equipment. And their potential, these coils can be increased by orders of magnitude according to our technology. Therefore, the automatic charge of batteries from a corresponding change in magnetic processes in radial local space is a matter of the distant future. Moreover, well-founded ideas exist.
      1. astepanov
        astepanov 30 November 2017 10: 50 New
        +2
        Have you set yourself the goal of spoiling the entire Internet space? What do you jump like a flea from topic to topic with your bullshit? Or do you get paid for spam?
        1. gridasov
          gridasov 30 November 2017 11: 28 New
          0
          Can’t you talk? Or am I annoying someone. Don’t read if you don’t like it. In general, if you notice the conversation is about the same thing. Themes are different, yes, but the solutions are all in one context ..
          I’m in correspondence with one company so they themselves ask that people write not only sound ideas, but also all their fantasies. But such smart people as you are not aware that there is a diamond grain in the heap of garbage. You don’t understand that this is necessary not for me, but for people like you. Because Russia became the target of attacks only because someone thought it was weakened. And I just don’t want this. And I don’t like plebeians like you to tell me what and where to write or not. Learn to work with information, but I have a system. You will not see, others will see.
  12. V. Ushakov
    V. Ushakov 29 November 2017 05: 23 New
    +1
    I said from the very beginning - Musk is an ordinary crook, and his TESLA is “Horns and Hooves” for money laundering and loot money.
    Nothing new, 3 thimble version of the game.
    But.
    "While fools live in the world" ... (c)
  13. aszzz888
    aszzz888 29 November 2017 05: 49 New
    +2
    671 million dollars was lost only in 2017.

    ... well, that’s not really a lot of money, for such a mess ...
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 30 November 2017 00: 44 New
      +1
      Just think - 60 of the value of the Tesla company.
  14. V. Ushakov
    V. Ushakov 29 November 2017 06: 56 New
    0
    The Tesla company, like all horns and hooves, is threatened by the only thing - the Court.
    Which of the Tesla will become the “zitz-chairman”, who will Ostap-Maria-Bender-Mask appoint to this post?
    Well, it’s not for Mask himself to go to prison ... bully
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 29 November 2017 18: 46 New
      +1
      None of them will sit - they will solve the problem of producing batteries, which need to be made 500000.
      1. V. Ushakov
        V. Ushakov 30 November 2017 04: 46 New
        +1
        The "problem" can be easily solved by purchasing batteries in China.
        And - went on to saw ... laughing
        For the sake of order, they will land on the moon (of course, through Hollywood studios, for, as yet ...). bully
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 30 November 2017 18: 56 New
          +1
          In China, they do not make such batteries, and if they do, then their reliability will be extremely low - in general, the future lies in fuel cell batteries.
          1. V. Ushakov
            V. Ushakov 1 December 2017 04: 09 New
            +1
            They do it and Musk buys them.
            About this - a lot of articles, including in the Internet.
            For instance, -
            "Motors for Tesla are also made in China - a separate rotor, a separate stator, Tesla just puts his own label on them (see http://www.cens.com/cens/html/en/news/news_inner_
            43640.html, “Fukuta Elec. & Mach. Co., Ltd. is the only Taiwanese supplier of the motor on the Model S featuring high-conductivity die-cast copper rotor for higher efficiency, lower power consumption, compact size and lighter weight ”). This "complicated" action is beneficial - it allows you to "honestly" put the place of production in the United States, and import motors at tariffs for components, and not for finished products (other duties). "
            And, -
            “For almost a decade and a half, Tesla has gained a lot of patents, but all of them, if you look, are related to design or decoration decisions. That is, stories about“ science, what kind of capitalization, all due to unique technologies, ”actually describe numerous patents “Wing shape” and “color of the plastic on the pull-out handle.”
            https://cont.ws/@zeta/493851
            1. gridasov
              gridasov 1 December 2017 11: 45 New
              +1
              Quote: V. Ushakov
              "For almost a decade and a half, Tesla has gained a bunch of patents, but all of them, if you look, are associated with design or decoration solutions.

              I understand you. I am also primarily interested in physics and mathematics. Nevertheless, Musk does not rely on ordinary asynchronous motors and batteries. The fact that they produce a mass motor in China does not mean that their laboratories are not engaged in fine-tuning to a highly efficient level. Moreover, with modern technological equipment, any changes are easily introduced into production. Moreover, one must understand that Musk does not rely on the situation in the world that exists today and the demand for electrical technologies is relative, but relies on the rate of change in attitudes towards electrical technologies. This is not just the future, this is the future according to different levels of prospects for its coming.
              Another thing is that the Mask really does not have breakthrough technologies that have a distant level of progressive development., Which for example we are considering. That is, no one is guaranteed against error, which means you have to start all over again from scratch. Therefore, here they just do not understand that there may be completely new physical principles of work and engines and mathematics is also algorithmic, rather than constructing simple and indefinite sequences. But they obviously compensate for this by the “poke” method and the so-called start from movement. That is, they are already in the process, and competitors will have to start from scratch.
  15. pavelty
    pavelty 29 November 2017 14: 12 New
    0
    “If for the European Union the transition to electric cars is a way to gradually reduce its dependence on oil and gas supplies from Russia ...” - I’m embarrassed to ask, but where will they get electricity without oil? from tidal stations ... I'm afraid not enough at all)
  16. astepanov
    astepanov 29 November 2017 14: 28 New
    +1
    All this venture has the main problem - the low energy consumption of the batteries compared to the gas tank. The best lithium-ion batteries have a specific energy consumption of 0,2 kWh / kg, and gasoline - 3 kWh / kg. This is already taking into account efficiency, i.e. heat losses taken into account. The difference is 15 times! In winter, the ICE efficiency is higher, because Exhaust heat is used to heat the passenger compartment. And how to heat an electric car? The second problem is the low service life. The real, and not the advertising resource of lithium-ion batteries is 3 years and a thousand cycles. Let me remind you: a few years ago they shouted in full about nickel-metal hydride batteries, they say, how capacious and resourceful they are, 5 thousand charge-discharge cycles. Did Prius - and so what? 600 cycles - and the battery is dead! The third problem is the duration of the charge. Well, they’ll bring the charge to a couple of hours - and what, are you ready to wait two hours on a charging station on a trip? Finally, the cost of infrastructure. A charging station serving at least a dozen cars at a time should have a substation with an installed capacity of at least five hundred kilowatts. And this, with the laying of power lines, auxiliary equipment, etc. - no less than 10 million rubles. And such stations will be required more than gas stations, because the runs will be less. Who will pay for it? Clear the stump, the owner of the car. There are many more problems. So a mass electric car is the same as an affordable carpet rug. Only less real.
    1. gridasov
      gridasov 29 November 2017 16: 43 New
      +1
      For some reason, there are no storage systems in nature, but there are reverse processes when the initial source of energy is in the external environment. Therefore, for example, we are considering a method when a high-potential electrical circuit can be connected-closed through a specific technique and device that will perform the work, and not carry out a “breakdown” in the form of a plasma. The work will be performed by magnetic fluxes, the gradient of which are electrical processes. In other words, not only the engine, but also the generator, which are in close connection, are combined in one device. And what's more, useful work also includes external space in the form of an elastic medium of air or water. Then drives are not needed, except for initiating the operation of the entire battery system. Therefore, using modern techniques, it is absolutely impossible to create a comprehensive and coordinated system of work. And this issue was voiced by Tesla. Remember the tank !? that the work needs to be done not by pumping, but by withdrawing air from a closed environment .. And this is really possible
      1. astepanov
        astepanov 30 November 2017 10: 48 New
        0
        Stop generating nonsense.
  17. Serzh_R
    Serzh_R 29 November 2017 17: 21 New
    +1
    Yes, Musk, along with the rotting west, will soon go bankrupt laughing

    https://hi-news.ru/technology/ilon-mask-postroit-
    eshhyo-tri-novyx-zavoda-gigafactory.html

    The second plant has already begun to be built in the suburbs of Buffalo (New York, USA), but Musk is not going to limit it to two factories, so it plans to start building at least three more similar enterprises. Where exactly they will be located, the head of Tesla does not know yet. As soon as the company finally decided on this matter, Musk promised to publish the information. In any case, this will happen in the year 2017.


    1. gridasov
      gridasov 29 November 2017 17: 58 New
      +1
      I have repeatedly said that at the current level of development of the industrial world, the best investment is investing in innovative developments. And if correctly invested in scientific ideas and applied developments, then this is generally ideal. Therefore, it is not Musk who invests money, but those who have them "unmeasured."
      1. gridasov
        gridasov 29 November 2017 18: 13 New
        +1
        One could say more. Putin only announced the innovative development of Russia and everything died the next day. There is no program. Moreover, there is no right program, but you still need to be able to do it. At the same time, Americans are already at a new stage in the diversification of innovation policy. That is, they have long been seeking the optimal forms of such organizations and structures in which it is possible to create optimal conditions for the birth of ideas and their initial development. They have long come to the conclusion that the creation of any samples of products and devices at the modern technological level is not a problem. They need justified, and sometimes just fantastic ideas. And Elon Musk works in this system. And while everyone will scold or praise him, the process is already underway. At the same time, the correct policy for investing in such programs gives a pass to the future, and money is pieces of paper that can be printed as many as you like. It’s a pity that the Russians don’t do that
        1. Bakht
          Bakht 29 November 2017 19: 41 New
          +1
          All these are good wishes and words. Believe the man who spent his whole life in production. Real production. And the most advanced in my area.
          "the creation of any samples of products and devices at the modern technological level is not a problem."
          This is not true. Years pass from an idea to its embodiment in reality. Moreover, simple hard workers embody these very innovative ideas. What is in Russia, what is in America. The idea of ​​the spatial arrangement of seismic sensors appeared in the 60s, the first samples were tested on our ship in 1999. Complete failure. In 2005, the system worked. Now widespread. So there are problems.
          As we joked at our work, "measure with a micrometer, measure with chalk, chop with an ax."
          Yes, and money is not a piece of paper at all. And print them as you want will not work. Well, it won’t work out.
          1. gridasov
            gridasov 29 November 2017 19: 59 New
            +1
            Well, I will explain. To create the configuration of the propeller blades of a modern aircraft turbine or turbine blades, a lot of useless work is really needed. Why useless? Because at different speeds of rotation of the turbine or when changing properties, the algorithmic process changes in which the flow, as a dynamic system, adjusts to the unchanged shape of the blade. That is, in other words, it is impossible to create a harmonious flow outflow for all rotor speeds. But !!! we created such a turbine which is calculated based only on the radius of the rotor. And that’s all. This means that all other parameters and dimensions expire from the radius. In this case, the gas-gas dynamic flow changes properties only from completely different parameters. I’ll hide it. -which. That is, as a result, only the level of energy efficiency of the transformed hydro-gas-dynamic flow changes. Therefore, the creation of the base part of the turbine on the printer is very fast compared to modern devices. But the efficiency of our turbine is several orders of magnitude higher in all respects.
            Why is money paper? Because it is necessary to distinguish between money and securities that work on external operations and money that are spinning within the state and turn around all the more only through bank transfer. That is, this money does not affect inflation or other processes. And this money can be given out as much as you need to satisfy the needs of a closed domestic demand. Therefore, you need to understand that the same dollars are everywhere different not in face value or pattern, but in their combined effect on certain markets or economic spaces.
            1. Bakht
              Bakht 29 November 2017 20: 14 New
              +1
              Let's start with the technical side. To create your own turbine (I do not consider the details, because this is not my specialty), it took a lot of work. That's right. But when the part (device) is created, its cloning is already much cheaper. It can be explained more simply. The first disk of Windows cost about 1 million dollars. Now the cost of 1 Windows is a few cents. Well, maybe a couple of dollars.
              The second part is about money. What you say was related to the Soviet model of the economy. According to the Western model, money and pieces of paper are one and the same. Read the news. For ten years, central banks have pursued a policy of quantitative easing. And they printed billions and trillions of dollars. Those same pieces of paper. And today Goldman Sash claims that this bubble is about to burst.
              You can’t just print pieces of paper. In our reality, this is money. Do you know what destroyed the USSR? Transfer non-cash money into cash. Individual Employment Act. After reading this ITD law, my leader in Moscow stated: "End to the country." I didn’t understand when I was young. I understand now.
              1. gridasov
                gridasov 29 November 2017 20: 45 New
                +1
                Obviously, it’s not for me to tell you about the fundamental principles of the sensors. And this is also not my specialty. But it is our basic approaches that can radically transform the work of various sensors. Because the change in the parameters of any material in resistance can be in a linear vector, or maybe in, we will say the vector of a rotating magnetic flux. And I believe that this parameter may be more sensitive in response to change than in the vector that is used now.
                I think that the main thing is not that you can or cannot print them without restriction. The main thing is their sufficient availability so that one or another project can be invested. Incidentally, including various wars, which does not make the US poorer, but makes it even richer because they put everyone in their dependence on precisely this "extra" money.
                I will not discuss the financial system of Russia. But I think . that a lot is being done not professionally and not patriotically. Clumsy work. But not for us to discuss them ..
              2. Vadim237
                Vadim237 30 November 2017 00: 48 New
                +1
                Like it or not, I must admit Musk is achieving his goal, I am more than sure that he will withdraw, slightly unprofitable, production for profit and will grow.
                1. gridasov
                  gridasov 30 November 2017 00: 55 New
                  0
                  I think that using the example of Mask it is necessary to develop Russian technologies. It's time to take the best and think about the future of Russia. It won’t be like that. Anyway, the Americans show flexibility, maneuverability and determination, and Russia, again, although at the current level with positive trends, is again involved in the arms race,
                  1. Serzh_R
                    Serzh_R 30 November 2017 16: 13 New
                    0
                    The most important example for Russia is that Musk goes against the interests of oil magnates and continues to develop.
                    Apparently in the USA their shared opinion is not so influential.
                    Its development is like a litmus paper, showing the effect of our nano-struggle for technology and promoting them in business.
          2. Gorbatiy
            Gorbatiy 3 December 2017 06: 03 New
            0
            Bakı or Gilavar?
            1. Bakht
              Bakht 3 December 2017 17: 00 New
              0
              Both. In my time
              By the way, what about fire extinguishers for Auto Mask? We only had two. Each seems 15 kilos bucks. Conventional fire extinguishers are not suitable.
              1. Gorbatiy
                Gorbatiy 5 December 2017 04: 40 New
                0
                What did the seismic do with fire fighting? The cost of all at Mask is 15 percent, max 20 from retail.
                1. Bakht
                  Bakht 5 December 2017 09: 36 New
                  +1
                  Seismic worked all his life with lithium batteries. And took fire extinguishing courses. They even issued a certificate. Should a fire extinguisher be in the car? For lithium, it is very expensive.
                  About the cost price. Cost of profit has a very, very indirect relationship. Suppose I release a product with a cost of $ 1. And I sell for $ 100. Good? Unknown If the goods are in demand then this is excellent, and if not in demand, then the cost price does not matter.
                  A classic example of competent marketing. Two salesmen selling shoes go to an African country. Send two reports
                  1. No prospects. Nobody wears shoes here.
                  2. Great prospects. Nobody has shoes here.
                  If the consumer sees that the electric car (shoes) is profitable, then he will buy it. In the meantime, Musk is afloat due to huge government subsidies. It talked about 4 billion a year. As soon as the subsidies ran out, the company became unprofitable.
                  1. Bakht
                    Bakht 5 December 2017 10: 37 New
                    0
                    We had slightly different batteries. Type D. 4 pieces per device. The voltage is 3,5 volts each.
                    Requirements. In no case do not bring in residential premises. Have on board a special thick-walled container for bad batteries. Explode like dynamite. Have at least 2 lithium fire extinguishers on board. One at the place of storage, the other at the place of work. Have no more than 19 pieces in the container (I don’t know where this quantity was taken from). Transportation by land only. It is strictly forbidden to bring on board the aircraft. If the device is not used for more than two days, be sure to remove the batteries and store separately.
                    1. gridasov
                      gridasov 5 December 2017 10: 48 New
                      0
                      Well, here you are voicing exactly the problem that I often talk about, its essence lies in the fact that it is impossible to maintain a high energy density and as a result we have a breakdown on externally polarized objects or an explosion as a breakdown on a spatially polarized medium. I hope it is clear that the environment also always has polarization. The solution to this problem is very simple, but not very clear to many. Its essence is that the voltage at the ends of a linear conductor can always be minimized through rotating magnetic fluxes.
                      1. Bakht
                        Bakht 5 December 2017 17: 10 New
                        0
                        Any question can be explained in simple language. I am not a physicist and it is difficult for me to understand you. We did not have batteries, namely batteries. An explosion occurred if the leakproofness of the element or water got in. That is a closure. Otherwise, the batteries worked fine. The problem was disposal and storage. And reporting, of course. When more than 100 batteries were washed away during the storm during the storm, we had enormous environmental problems. How does Musk plan to recycle old batteries? Or is it the cost of consumers?
                        In the sea, we simply had no other choice. A small-sized energy source with a long service life was needed. Anyway, 30-35 days of work and the batteries had to be changed.
    2. V. Ushakov
      V. Ushakov 30 November 2017 05: 11 New
      +1
      Musk will never go bankrupt.
      Because fools live in the world - always ...
      The fools have one idea - "What if the Mask succeeds, then you get even more rich-e-e-e-e-m and fly to the Falcons, it’s necessary to Mars!" laughing
      1. gridasov
        gridasov 30 November 2017 12: 45 New
        +1
        Obviously, I'm already fed up with everyone. But I will answer you. Musk will not create anything new if he does not rely on fundamental scientific research. Personally, I understand this because we now see all the achievements of mankind with a disposition that allows us to evaluate everything as from the future. We just understand that we made the jump, and all the rest are moving by algorithms of a different order.
        1. V. Ushakov
          V. Ushakov 30 November 2017 16: 27 New
          +1
          Call, Urbi et Orbi, that "fundamental", in the sense - fundamentally new - on which Musk "relies" in his scam.
          And please, without fantasies, only facts (at least one - two facts).
          I would be very grateful.
          1. gridasov
            gridasov 30 November 2017 17: 14 New
            +1
            I have already mentioned that one of the important patents of the Mask is the principles and arrangement of batteries. There are thousands of them. People will not pay attention to this. Moreover, the scientific significance is precisely fundamental. On this principle, we position, for example, microcircuits not on the plane of the boards, but voluminous. This means that various elements in the circuits can be located in the space of the magnetic flux of others. What does it give. First, so to speak, we get a layered Faraday cage and processes for controlling a rotating magnetic force flux. In general, there is a lot of new things. The second thing that Musk uses the motor on the new principles of operation of magnetic fluxes in the stator. There are still interesting solutions.
            1. V. Ushakov
              V. Ushakov 1 December 2017 04: 15 New
              +1
              On the "patents" of the Mask, see my post a little higher, with links.
              However, if you are biased, no one and nothing will convince you, I understand that well.
              Consciousness cannot be changed.
              I. Name at least one SPECIFIC PATENT; to me, and to others, “thousands” are not necessary.
      2. Vadim237
        Vadim237 30 November 2017 18: 59 New
        +1
        So far, Mask has succeeded - as intended. In 2010, everyone laughed at him, but now everyone is silent.
        1. V. Ushakov
          V. Ushakov 1 December 2017 04: 16 New
          0
          Now they are not silent, now they are trying to return the money.
  18. iouris
    iouris 30 November 2017 16: 50 New
    0
    Musk is the "star wars" of the newest model, i.e. US administration bluff.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 30 November 2017 19: 00 New
      +1
      And what is the bluff - more specifically.
      1. iouris
        iouris 1 December 2017 14: 14 New
        0
        Bluffers bluff in a card game. The purpose of the US administration is the destruction of the sovereignty of states. This problem can be solved by putting the world economy in technological dependence on a technological leader, the technological leader is the USA. The US administration prohibits the use of alternative technologies. For the US, the main thing is not the effectiveness of technology, but technological leadership. Those states that refuse to use alternative technologies lose their independence forever. Musk is not a private entrepreneur, but an agent of the US administration, which the US administration serves as a cover for. The bluff is that the goal of technology development is not efficiency, but the prohibition of alternative technologies.
        1. gridasov
          gridasov 1 December 2017 15: 01 New
          +1
          Absolutely agree !!! So the game with the Americans should be level. Only they have huge financial resources and experience in managing them, and in the alternative, real knowledge and their correct implementation should be contrasted. History has multiple proofs that money does not solve everything in science. In any case, at the most fundamental level of the appearance of scientific developments and ideas. Further, of course, everything is clear.
        2. Vadim237
          Vadim237 1 December 2017 19: 54 New
          +1
          What is this alternative technology? Everything that develops everything goes into business, starting from batteries, ending with the development of a thermonuclear reactor and combat lasers. All countries go their own way, in one sphere or another - to the best of their ability.
          1. iouris
            iouris 3 December 2017 13: 13 New
            +1
            Quote: Vadim237
            All countries go their own way, in one sphere or another - to the best of their ability.

            You are mistaken. The development of technologies is based on the achievements of fundamental and applied research. “All states” can’t afford science. The basis of the volume of spending on science and R&D is given by the USA. The United States has long been pulling its brains systemically. Jacob Kedmi, by the way, did just that for Israel. And we have gas in our apartment.
            1. Gorbatiy
              Gorbatiy 5 December 2017 04: 41 New
              0
              Cedmi in what area? Looking for special agents in Russia?
  19. gridasov
    gridasov 1 December 2017 11: 57 New
    +1
    Quote: V. Ushakov
    However, if you are biased, no one and nothing will convince you, I understand that well.

    Not at all! My prejudices are based not on fantasies, but on already existing knowledge. The evidence and validity of them is beyond doubt. Therefore, what you call prejudice is actually the ability to rely on a complex of large informational data that is systematic and is determined by the ability to see the dynamics of the processes, rather than individual episodes taken out of the context of all events.
    Amorous talk about the demise of the Mask industry is generally ridiculous. The fact that it is supported by various forms and sources of financing from outside is a fact. But the idea is visible ten years ago, when the Americans created centers of military conflict in Kuwait and North Africa. Wars and conflicts were not created to export oil and stabilize the consumption market, but also to delay time for the development of new innovative developments in the field of energy. And this is not nonsense because look how much they invest money and funds in innovative projects. And they do not throw away money in vain. In any case, I would have done the same.
    1. gridasov
      gridasov 1 December 2017 12: 04 New
      +1
      Sorry, I do not name the patent numbers. I'm not interested . I am interested in the key basis of physical and mathematical principles that are used both by the organization system and the real processes that accompany the development of innovative ideas. What is happening now in the world of key innovations was modeled by me even decades ago and everything happens as it was modeled. Only all very "small steps." Understand that events can be viewed from a relative position from the past, but also because we do it from the future
  20. yorik9
    yorik9 1 December 2017 19: 20 New
    0
    At one time, the same vine stood behind Ford. Then think for yourself.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 1 December 2017 20: 04 New
      +1
      Tesla will become a monopoly in the car market, but the space X will become in space.
  21. gridasov
    gridasov 5 December 2017 17: 33 New
    0
    Bakht,
    You're right! I argue with other concepts. I am really interested in the process in which you can optimize the functions of the engine and generator, as well as the propulsion. Therefore, I will not complicate the dialogue.
  22. Gorbatiy
    Gorbatiy 7 December 2017 04: 02 New
    0
    Bakht,
    The batteries you used are familiar to me. Now it is an old technology. New Tesla batteries contain only 2% lithium by weight.
    And this gentleman is not a physicist, but an empty man.
    As for subsidies to Tesla's business, do not believe fairy tales. There were subsidies through taxes, with the release of Model 3 removed. The price is already quite normal.
    1. gridasov
      gridasov 7 December 2017 10: 42 New
      0
      Just do not say that it is difficult to calculate how much the Mask had pre-orders and generally sold cars and how much, even very approximately, it may cost to create the entire infrastructure for the production of cars only. In general, you can’t even take it into account so as not to create a feeling of additional support for the Mask-be someone. Nobody does such projects on their money. .
  23. Gorbatiy
    Gorbatiy 7 December 2017 04: 06 New
    0
    Bakht,
    This frame does not understand anything in physics and especially in electric motors. Engines in electric cars already have 95-98% efficiency. these 2-5% are lost on the resistance of wires, bearings, transients. There is nowhere to increase the efficiency. Sizes - possible. But now they are quite satisfied.
    1. gridasov
      gridasov 7 December 2017 10: 37 New
      0
      If you do not waste time on personal discussions, then we can definitely say that. that the presence of the battery itself indicates that. that the engines are not perfect. If you remember. what is a Faraday unipolar motor and Tesla’s rotating magnetic field is something completely obvious. that these real engines from Mask Corporation have a completely different axis of rotation than how it should be formed in a unipolar motor. It should be understood that the stator induction windings form parasitic inductive processes, which makes us look for methods of superconductivity. And for example, we created such a winding in which there are no these spurious effects. Moreover, using rotating magnetic fluxes and understanding both the systemic relationship with the linear and rolling moments of the rotating flux and the very principles of the transition process from linear to rotational flux, it is easy to understand how you can do without a huge battery of batteries at all, and have only one initiating current source, i.e. the engine design can include the engine itself on one plane from the rotation of the rotor and on the other side already have a current-generating system .. Moreover, since we are all in an elastic medium of air, and we understand that with increasing vehicle speed the resistance increases, then this air pressure can also be included in the energy generation system. Mask does not have all this. Therefore, you can still radically upgrade. and I would say in a fundamentally different way to form the whole process of generating the energy of movement of a car on an electric drive.
      1. gridasov
        gridasov 7 December 2017 11: 14 New
        0
        Let me add it. Today, a note was published that TsAGI developed a physical-mathematical model of PVERD for rockets flying in low orbits. And of course, my personal and well-founded conviction that, firstly, these scientists have no methods for creating such comprehensive models. which means the engine itself is fundamentally different from our concept
      2. Gorbatiy
        Gorbatiy 8 December 2017 01: 39 New
        0
        Troll 100500 level.