Military Review

Japanese sword: deeper and deeper ... (part of 2)

184
Japanese sword: deeper and deeper ... (part of 2)
The century was just as short

Stagnant in evil and pride -
Dreams of fleeting nights
Many have become today.
How many powerful lords
Ruthless, fearless,
Now gone without a trace -
A handful of wind blown dust!
"The Tale of the House of Tyra", trans. I.Lvovoy


The main problem of the Japanese sword is not technical, but purely linguistic. Terms in Japanese. And there are a lot of them. They describe everything, starting from the curvature of the sori blade and its sugato shape and ending with the types of its kissaki edge — fukura-karer (straight) and fukura-tsuku (curved). It is very easy to fall under the magic of all these "scatter" and "hiryu" and only deal with the fact that all of this is listed, borrowing the terms themselves from the book of the same Konstantin Nosov, where every detail of the Japanese sword is painted in an extremely detailed way. However, is it worth it to go so deeply into this topic in an article that is so popular enough in its content? Obviously, both too short material and too long are not too suitable. In one there will be little information even for a non-expert, while the other is only an expert who can read to the end, but he will learn a little from the really new. The most reasonable thing is to give something in between, but this is precisely the most difficult thing when you write about Japanese swords. In the past, the material we met with their main differences from the swords of medieval Europe. Today we continue to delve accordingly history and those and others.

The main part of any sword, including the Japanese one, is its blade, its shape, chord (nagas) dimensions, degree of curvature (dzori), as well as the general shape of the blade (zukuri), and its cross section. The Japanese also noted the shape and size of the edge of the blade (kissaki), the middle point of curvature (sinogi), the width of its surface (sinogi-yi), the characteristic cross section of the rear part (mune), details of the blade surface (yi), for example, valleys and engravings.


Kissaki - the tip of the Japanese sword and the yokot - a well-marked vertical line separating the blade and the tip. Edo Epoch. (Tokyo National Museum)


The master polisher is working on finishing the blade. Photo from the library of the University of Vermont. Barlington, USA.

There are two large groups of blades by the presence of stiffeners on them:
• Sinogi-zukuri (with stiffener).
• Hira-zukuri (without stiffener).
In general, it can be said that the Japanese sword is a curved blade with one-sided sharpening, while the European sword is straight and has two blades. Very significant were the differences in the profile of the blade. The European sword traditionally had four edges, and later 10. Moreover, these latter had on a flat middle face and one dale, and even three dale. The simplest Japanese blade had only three faces, and more complex in profile - five, six or even seven faces. Interestingly, the Japanese blade as a whole is thicker and heavier than the European one. The fact is that some katanas at the handle have a thickness of almost 9 mm, and by the yokot (the line dividing the tip and the blade) taper to 6 mm. But the European swords at the handle have 7 mm, and to the point just up to 2 mm.


Japanese swords from the George Walter Vincent Smith Museum of Art. Springfield, Massachusetts, United States.

Of course, the shape of the blade, its bending and elongation varied from century to century. However, the Vikings also had single-edged swords, albeit with a straight blade. But how did the swords change in Japan: the swords of the second half of the Heian period (987 - 1185) had blades of length 85 cm, and they were narrow, with a strong bend, and narrowed to the tip. At the beginning of the Kamakura period (1185 - 1231) the width of the blade near the tip was slightly larger than before. But in general, they have not changed much. In the middle of the Kamakura period (1232 - 1287), the width of the blade increased, while at the end of this period (1288 - 1333) the swords acquired wide blades about 90 cm long and a wide and long edge.


The blade of Muramas, XIV century. (George Walter Vincent Smith Museum of Art. Springfield, Massachusetts, USA)

In the middle of the Nambokutyo period (1338 - 1367), very long blades appeared up to 120 cm, which were used exclusively by horsemen, and which practically did not taper to the tip, and by the end of it (1368 - 1392). the blades again became narrower.

In the middle of the Muromachi period (1392 - 1466) the length of the blade was 75 cm, but by the middle of this period (1467 - 1555) the shortest blades of only about 60 cm long appeared, and then at the end of this period (1555 - 1573) .) it increased again to about 73 cm.


The collection of swords and daggers from the collection of the George Walter Vincent Smith Museum of Art. Springfield, Massachusetts, United States.

The era of Momoyam (1573 - 1603) was distinguished by wide and long (about 80 cm) blades, and the first half of the Edo era (1603 - 1780) blades acquired a length of about 70 cm and with a slight curvature. Finally, in the second half of the Edo era (1781 - 1868). the length of the blades began to be about 75 cm, but at the same time they became almost straight.


The sequence of manufacturing a Japanese sword - from right to left.

That is, here in Japan we do not encounter divisions in Europe into chopping, slitting, and piercing swords, and all because the Japanese armor itself has not changed much all this time, while the armor of European knights consistently transformed from the "era of chain mail "To the" epoch of mail and plate armor ", and finally - to the" era of white armor. " And according to these changes swords also changed.

And now we note the fact that, although legends about the hardness and sharpness of Japanese swords, as well as about the blacksmith art of Japanese swordsmen, in principle there are no particular differences in the technical process of forging and forging a European blade. Although, of course, from a cultural point of view, making a sword for a Japanese blacksmith was a truly spiritual, almost sacred act. Whereas his European colleague simply did his job, although he probably prayed to the saints to help him. And, of course, he did not fast and did not deny himself carnal pleasures, like the Japanese blacksmith Kaji, and did not put on white priests' vestments. Although, probably, the forge was periodically washed and cleaned. In Japan, this was done to avoid contamination of steel, but was this rule observed in Europe?


Tartar stove. They looked like this, only without a roof, of course.

Again, the quality of the steel of the sword was determined by its source material. The raw material for nihonto (Japanese sword) was magnetite iron ore and iron sand, mined in different provinces. In the refining furnaces (furnaces of the Tatars) all this was melted down into crude steel. Tatar's furnace is a common cheese-making furnace, and its principle of operation is the same as that of cheese-making furnaces in Europe. From the XVI century, the Japanese began to use iron and steel, brought by Europeans, which greatly facilitated the work of Kaji. Today in Japan there is a single Tatar furnace, in which steel is produced only for traditional swords.


Traces of hardening on the blades of Japanese swords. (George Walter Vincent Smith Museum of Art. Springfield, Massachusetts, USA)

The blade of a Japanese sword usually consists of two parts: a soft core and a hard shell. This package was heated in a flame of pine coal, and then welded with hammer blows. The resulting bar was bent several times along and across, and again and again they were forged, repeating this technique about several times. In the process, both the bag itself and the tools were constantly cleaned in order to obtain very clean steel.

In contrast to European Damascus steel, the essence of the process here is not to weld the various, and in the homogenization of its layers. However, some non-homogenized particles still remain, and it provides the blade with additional viscosity and such amazing patterns on its surface.

Japanese sword: deeper and deeper ... (part of 2)

The work of a blacksmith. Illustration from a Japanese Edo book. (Museum of Ethnography in Neuchâtel, Switzerland).

And so it turns out a piece of steel, which consists of thousands of layers firmly interconnected (“shadows” in Japanese terminology). The core prepared for the blade consists of either pure iron or mild steel, which is also pre-folded and forged more than once.

The standard process of forging a sword consisted (and consists!) Of putting the core into a letter-V shell. From this steel rod, a blank for the blade is now forged. Although there are even more complex techniques ...

But the most difficult stage of making a sword was its hardening. And here Japanese technology from European definitely differed. The Japanese finished the blade covered with a mixture of clay, sand and charcoal - of course, each blacksmith had his own recipes for such mixtures and he kept it in strict secrecy. In this case, a thin layer of clay was applied to the blade, while on the sides and butt, on the contrary, it was very thick. When the clay dried, the blade was laid on the fire with the blade down. There were no thermometers at that time, and the blacksmith judged the readiness of the blade for hardening by the color of the glow. Therefore, the forge at this time blacked out. The Japanese chronicles call the color “February or August moon” the best color, but it's hard to imagine if you are not Japanese, who, by the way, distinguish colors very well and know only one green 27 shades!


Japanese blades, grinding stones and a tempering bath at the 2008 Festival in Blossom, Seattle, WA.

When the desired glow was reached, the blade was immersed in a container of cold water. The part of the blade that was covered with a thicker layer of clay naturally cooled more slowly in water and was softer than a blade covered with a thin layer. After hardening, the blade was released — it was heated again, but already up to 160 degrees Celsius, and then cooled again sharply, repeating this operation sometimes several times. Now the blade of the sword consisted of a soft core, a much more solid shell and a very solid blade. In Europe, a lot of methods of hardening were known, and including clay coating, but the simplest method “from fire to fire” was the most common.


1867 Dragon Blade (George Walter Vincent Smith Museum of Art. Springfield, Massachusetts, USA)

What did not need to care for the European blacksmiths and what should the Japanese remember? The European sword was symmetrical, so it cooled down evenly. The Japanese had a curvature which, when hardened, could change due to uneven cooling, sometimes up to 13 millimeters. Therefore, it was necessary to foresee in advance how the blade can be bent, and for this it was necessary to have a lot of experience and a “metal feeling”.


Typical blade nihonto - Japanese sword. (Tokyo National Museum)

After quenching, the blade was thoroughly checked, after which it was subjected to grinding and polishing for almost two weeks, while other masters made a mount for it. Again, there is one caveat: when “sharpening” the blade of a Japanese sword, you need to process its entire surface. Therefore, both sharpening and polishing represent a single process that needs to be carried out consistently, reducing the grain of the grinding stones. As a result, the blade turns out to be both beautiful and sharp, although this technology has a big disadvantage: with each such sharpening, you have to remove quite a lot of steel from the blade, which makes it thinner and thinner each time. Some old swords will be recognized precisely because their core appears from repeated sharpening of them.


Blade with engraving. (Tokyo National Museum)

There was another very important task for polishing - it was necessary to polish the blade in such a way that it could clearly distinguish various subtleties of blacksmith skill:
• Hamon, that is, the quenching strip, since the more hardened strip had a lighter color of crystalline steel with a clearly visible boundary line, the appearance of which was determined by the black plaster applied by the blacksmith.
• Hada, or grainy patterns appearing on steel.
• Bosi, or the hardening line on the tip.


The blade of the sword tati work master Unsho from Bizen, XIV century. (Tokyo National Museum)

All this helped to determine the master manufacturer and the value of the blade. In addition, for the definition of a school of production of blades. Among them:
• Features of the shape of the blade.
• Mount the sword.
• The shape of the blade shank.
• Traces of the file on the blade shank.
• The inscription on the shank.

To be continued ...
Author:
184 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. Basil50
    Basil50 30 November 2017 15: 30
    10
    He held such blades in his hands. But here are our veterans of the war with Japan that in 1905, that during the Civil War, that in 1945, the Zlatoust blades preferred. Of course, advertising and cinema tell a lot and very colorful about both blades and samurai. But none of the veterans could remember at least one master waving a blade.
    1. kalibr
      30 November 2017 15: 59
      +3
      Of course! Everything has changed. Modernization of Japan has greatly changed manufacturing techniques. The sword after 1877 and until 1945 is not at all what the sword of the 1600th ...
      1. Rakti-kali
        Rakti-kali 1 December 2017 03: 58
        +4
        Quote: kalibr
        Of course! Everything has changed. Modernization of Japan has greatly changed manufacturing techniques. The sword after 1877 and until 1945 is not at all what the sword of the 1600th ...

        Well, yes, it is much more technologically advanced and better.
        1. Evgeny Strygin
          Evgeny Strygin 6 December 2017 20: 32
          0
          much more useless. The change led to the fact that the ratio of the parameters of the blade made it a trinket. We couldn’t talk about quality either - mass consumer goods functionally suitable for cutting sausages. Someone named Nikolai before experiencing the infamous king even on his own head. And by the way, he remained not only alive, but also did not suffer practically at all.
    2. moskowit
      moskowit 30 November 2017 16: 15
      13
      Totally agree with you...

      Here they are where they all ended up ....

      And here in the photo is either Hassan or Khalkhin-Gol ... The commander judging by the buttonholes of the captain or senior political instructor ...
      1. M. Michelson
        M. Michelson 1 December 2017 00: 19
        +1
        It seems that the square on the sleeve is visible. Then the captain.
  2. mar4047083
    mar4047083 30 November 2017 16: 03
    14
    Hello V.O. Everything would be fine, but technological processes cannot be read without tears. Would you be with V.N. consulted before describing the technology of manufacturing metal products. Perhaps he would have made the necessary adjustments. In any case, he would talk about the colors of red-hot and runaway. “There were no thermometers then, and the blacksmith judged the blade’s readiness for hardening by the color of the glow” - it’s no good, because now, when there are “thermometers”, heating is judged by the colors of the heat. And this is “What the European blacksmiths did not have to take care of and what should the Japanese remember? The European sword was symmetrical, so it cooled evenly. " Just by virtue of symmetry, the European sword should cool evenly, so as not to become a "saber". You must admit there is some difference that it cooled down itself or should cool down thanks to the efforts of the blacksmith. This "masterpiece should also be corrected:" Unlike European Damascus steel, the essence of the process here is not that the different ones are welded, but in the homogenization of its layers. "
    1. Curious
      Curious 30 November 2017 16: 14
      +3
      Let me repeat myself.
      We have an attempt to present the classical technology (cognitive situation) of the Japanese sword (research subject). Well, the classic cognitive difficulty is the lack of the necessary tools (i.e., in this case, special knowledge) to solve it. In other words, there is no necessary theory that makes it possible to correctly describe the issue.
      1. mar4047083
        mar4047083 30 November 2017 16: 35
        +4
        Hello V.N. Something you are completely "tricky" began to express themselves. Still simple. The medieval blacksmith had certain problems, which he tried to solve according to his intellect and folk traditions. So it’s necessary to write what kind of problems these are, and methods for solving them. How a blacksmith’s clothes affects steel pollution is a mystery. White clothing is not a method of solving blacksmith problems (unless of course you do an operation to remove appendicitis in a samurai at the same time). U.O. better turns out a description of the final product.
      2. Grid
        Grid 2 December 2017 15: 13
        +1
        Well, Kourios, I had no doubt ...
        1. Curious
          Curious 2 December 2017 15: 44
          0
          What did you doubt?
          1. Grid
            Grid 16 December 2017 15: 57
            +1
            In your incompetence, like a metallurgist.
            Z.Y. Pereslegin smiles at me.
            1. Curious
              Curious 16 December 2017 16: 24
              0
              Oh, we stopped working to get poison? Did you paste over the apartment with copyright certificates? Enough? And then you may have to fold.
              1. Grid
                Grid 16 December 2017 16: 56
                +1
                Oh, we stopped working to get poison?

                Absolutely by accident ... It happens that he stepped on shit, but it stank ..
                Did you paste over the apartment with copyright certificates? Enough?

                Well, I’d start, enough. Around the waist ...
                And you, baby?
                1. Curious
                  Curious 16 December 2017 20: 10
                  0
                  And we do not. Not a single one, imagine! But yours, judging by your gloomy view of the world around you, did not bring you either moral or material satisfaction, or worldwide fame.
                  Or I'm wrong? Can you refute it?
                  1. Grid
                    Grid 17 December 2017 07: 49
                    0
                    But yours, judging by your gloomy view of the world around you, did not bring you either moral or material satisfaction, or worldwide fame.

                    Why? A couple is quite working.
                    And about the gloomy look ... That's when I read that nonsense that carries Shpakovsky, it just hurts me.
                    1. Curious
                      Curious 17 December 2017 11: 38
                      0
                      Have you ever thought of writing a sane comment with reasonable constructive criticism? Please readers, share knowledge. Or is it not a royal matter?
                      To throw poop, it is certainly easier, and a lot of mind is not needed. But such throwers on the site in abundance. If you are comfortable in their ranks, then, as they say, medicine is powerless. On this major note, I draw a line under our creative discussion. All the best.
                      1. Grid
                        Grid 18 December 2017 12: 06
                        0
                        Have you ever thought of writing a sane comment with reasonable constructive criticism?

                        He wrote exactly as long as he realized that this subject was simply a teacher of the history of the CPSU.
                        Well, for an example: https://topwar.ru/user/Grille/
                        Please readers, share knowledge.

                        Almost everything that I know is in the public domain. Do not be lazy and read. But I, alas, am not a "worker by mouth," like some unreputable ones. Sitting down and writing something worthwhile is simply not a leisure time.
                        On this major note, I draw a line under our creative discussion.

                        Summed up? Well, do not shine!
  3. kalibr
    30 November 2017 17: 09
    +2
    Quote: mar4047083
    the color of the glow "- is no good, because now, when there are" thermometers ", heating is judged by the colors of the heat.

    By the color of "glow" - I agree that it was necessary to write "red-hot". With all the other comments, no. This is a differently expressed idea. You like it better, I kind of ... mistakes that distort the meaning I do not see.
    “Agree, there’s some difference cooling down itself or should cooling down thanks to the efforts of the blacksmith” - I do not agree. It's about hardening, water tanks. And so it is clear that, hardening, they put a sword into the water. Otherwise it would have been written - "they gave the rider, from the galloping, the wind blew through." I suggest you read how Nosov, Layble and Turnbull wrote about this. Compare ... Radish horseradish is not sweeter !!! Everyone is about the same ...
    "White clothing is not a method of solving blacksmith problems (unless of course you simultaneously perform an operation to remove appendicitis from a samurai)" - you would tell them, not me !!!
    1. mar4047083
      mar4047083 30 November 2017 21: 21
      +2
      IN. it’s not what I like or dislike. The comment was about the description of production technology. I'm not talking about heat (let's say it's a typo), I'm talking about thermometers. How do you imagine measuring the temperature of steel with a thermometer? Further, you yourself write the blade was tempered. Smart Japanese tempered only the blade, and stupid Europeans get the whole blade, then of course the water tub removes problems. The next question is, what impurities do the blacksmith's clothes pollute when they are forged (are they really microbes)? Further, a purely historical issue, steel in those days could not be smelted, it was obtained by the reduction method. At the exit after such a process, pieces of porous G. with a huge amount of impurities. Hence the "dancing with tambourines" around the horn. There is no doubt that the word homogenization is beautiful, but it turns out that the Japanese deliberately tapped the "piece of iron" with hammers, and the Europeans just like that, have nothing to do.
      1. kalibr
        30 November 2017 22: 48
        +2
        You see, I’m just very close to the text, as close as possible, retelling all that is written by Kure, Layble, Nosova and Turnbull. Naturally, without adding or decreasing anything. Dumb Europeans or not, why white, and how everything was in reality, I do not know. But everything is accurately transmitted, which you yourself can easily be convinced of by contacting their work. Someone had something more, someone was given something more interesting, someone focused on something different. I looked through all this, selected the most interesting, well-established and gave a new form. Providing explanatory photographic material. What else do you need? This is a normal practice of historical journalism. Because if there were links to every fact, for more reference to works and links to links in works, as is customary in scientific materials, you will not like this either. Then there is - and not one who will say: DID NOT UNDERSTAND ANYTHING! Do you know something better? Very good - write about it. Like, here in such a material it was ... it makes sense to clarify further on your text.
        1. mar4047083
          mar4047083 30 November 2017 23: 12
          0
          IN. I do not argue with you in the description of swords. I do not argue with historical dates. But frank "mistakes" sometimes level the article to zero. I am not a metallurgist, but the description of the technological process is something, even for an amateur.
          1. kalibr
            1 December 2017 08: 11
            +2
            "I’m not a metallurgist, but the description of the technological process is something, even for an amateur."

            Strange remark! Do you think that I lay on the couch, all this is invented "from the bulldozer" and copied to the screen? Personally mine here is a mention of 27 shades of green, known to the Japanese. And it wasn't me who invented it, but B.P. Nikitin told me, there was such a famous teacher, he was in Japan. But do not give this link. For everything else - you can. And all ... did the authors make "mistakes"? Tired of writing already ... at the beginning of the first material historiography is given ... there are books of famous, recognized authors. Read ...
            1. Amurets
              Amurets 1 December 2017 11: 43
              +1
              Quote: kalibr
              Personally mine here is a mention of 27 shades of green, known to the Japanese. And it wasn't me who invented it, but B.P. Nikitin told me, there was such a famous teacher, he was in Japan.

              And here is green, when there are a lot of shades of white. But the shades of white that you mentioned, show the temperature in the range of 1150-1300С and you need to have skill and excellent eyesight to determine the temperature of the sword by the shade of the color of red-hot.
            2. Grid
              Grid 16 December 2017 15: 59
              0
              was so famous teacher,[i] [/ i]

              Not a metallurgist. Namely a teacher.
        2. karabas86
          karabas86 10 December 2017 20: 12
          0
          Do not worry about a good article for amateurs, for example people like me, and criticisms of it for that and cretics.
          1. Grid
            Grid 16 December 2017 16: 01
            0
            Do not worry about a good article for amateurs, such as myself,

            That's just for amateurs, this article is the most dangerous. Bo amateur does not know how it is done. Yes, and will not understand.
      2. marline
        marline 1 December 2017 10: 01
        +2
        Quote: mar4047083
        How do you imagine measuring the temperature of steel with a thermometer?

        But what is now preventing us from measuring the temperature of steel with a thermometer? Religion?
        1. zivXP
          zivXP 2 December 2017 22: 20
          0
          Apparently technology. It is an infection, it still inhibits the progress of science.
          1. marline
            marline 4 December 2017 15: 30
            +2
            You are slightly behind, have been imagining for a century now how technology can even measure the temperature of the sun))))
            Quote: zivXP
            Apparently technology. It is an infection, it still inhibits the progress of science.
  4. Anyone
    Anyone 30 November 2017 17: 30
    13
    With Japanese officer swords, my grandmother chopped firewood in a garrison on about. Urup. Of course, at that time it never occurred to anyone from my family to bring along a few pieces when they left the Kuril Islands ((
  5. Mikado
    Mikado 30 November 2017 17: 43
    +2
    The blade of Muramas, XIV century. (George Walter Vincent Smith Museum of Art. Springfield, Massachusetts, USA)

    one of the four remaining. We have one in the samurai exhibition, which is still closed. recourse
    I read to someone that the blacksmith always put on an ebosi hat for forging. The ritual, they say.
  6. Arkady Gaidar
    Arkady Gaidar 30 November 2017 17: 53
    +8
    The article is incomprehensible. Either praises Japanese swords and belittles the European traditions of the sword, or simply tried to show the difference in approaches to the manufacture of these items in Europe and Japan. I once spoke with a very enthusiastic Kendoist who knew the history of the Japanese sword well and repeatedly came across these “rarities”. So he explained and admitted that with all the beauty and combat capabilities of the Katan, strong excesses and twists, they could not stand it, they were breaking. Therefore, they are extremely contraindicated in sword-to-sword combat, as in Europeans, where you can easily get into a tricky guard. And when in Europe, there were sword-breakers capable of breaking a sword, but not a medieval European sword, for a samurai sword this is immediately a sentence for chipping and breaking.
    Fektovalschiki-reconstruction of the European sword, the Japanese do not take seriously. The garda is so small that very quickly the owner of the katana is left without fingers. It’s solid chain armor, it’s quite good at holding a katana strike (essentially a saber), but it is very weak against the European sword. And in their historical competitions this is confirmed by the fact that opponents of the European sword, even in continuous chain mail from head to toe, are periodically taken away in an ambulance, after a gamble, on blunted blades. Reconstructors also refer to the poor balance of the katana. There is no counterweight in the handle and therefore it is difficult to maneuver with the blade, the center of gravity is far from the handle. All this has a bad effect on feints and encircling blows, which in the European sword give up to 30% of victories.
    Conclusion: For lovers of Japanese military culture, this article did not discover anything new. And understanding the European sword, it remained incomprehensible))
    1. Soho
      Soho 1 December 2017 05: 47
      +5
      or maybe it’s not worth doing writing, comparing the weapons of two completely different cultures? You write nonsense, if only because weapons have always evolved from the word "always" obeying certain laws. If heavy armor appears, then a heavy sword appears that can cut through this armor. On the European theater of war this happened. And in Japan, it didn’t even reach the heavy cuirasses, their laminar, by no means, can pull on this. So where would heavy swords come from? The logic of your
      Fektovalschiki-reconstruction of the European sword, the Japanese do not take seriously. The garda is so small that very quickly the owner of the katana is left without fingers. It’s solid chain armor, it’s quite good at holding a katana strike (essentially a saber), but it is very weak against the European sword. And in their historical competitions this is confirmed by the fact that opponents of the European sword, even in continuous chain mail from head to toe, are periodically taken away in an ambulance, after a gamble, on blunted blades.

      where?
      1. Arkady Gaidar
        Arkady Gaidar 1 December 2017 10: 35
        +1
        Now, in order)) What is the writing? What are you talking about? They took the words out of context and ask where is the logic? Maybe in this case you need to consider the entire text? wassat My comment is quite finished and explained at the beginning and at the end: the article remained incomprehensible. And in the middle, explanations are given with reference to the author of the article, who himself began to compare the Japanese and European swords. So I had to make clarifications on the European and Japanese sword, known to me. If this logic is not clear to you, this question is not for me hi
    2. marline
      marline 1 December 2017 10: 27
      +3
      Quote: Arkady Gaidar
      So he explained and admitted that with all the beauty and combat capabilities of the Katan, strong kinks and twists, they could not stand it, they were breaking. Therefore, they are extremely contraindicated in sword-to-sword combat, as in Europeans, where you can easily get into a tricky guard.

      Where did you see the "sophisticated guard" at the European sword of Carolingian or Romanesque type? Fighting a sword against a sword is also very, very happy - do not you confuse a sword with a sword or a rapier? But why did the Europeans need a shield in this case?
      Quote: Arkady Gaidar
      And when in Europe, there were sword-breakers who could break a sword, but not a medieval European sword, for a samurai sword this is immediately a sentence for chipping and breaking.

      This is actually a shame to read very much, because it hints at the low quality of the "medieval European sword" - are they made of iron that you just bend, blunt, but do not break and do not crumble?
      Quote: Arkady Gaidar
      Solid chainmail ... but against the European sword is very weak.

      Well, these European knights were stupid - they dragged 40 kg each. ineffective protection ...
      And yes, the Japanese were familiar with chain mail ... And they used their swords against plate armor quite effectively. Recall also that historically the knights switched from ring armor to plate armor.
      1. Arkady Gaidar
        Arkady Gaidar 1 December 2017 10: 59
        +2
        In fact, a shield is a very ancient invention, if you do not know, and the first thing it is intended to protect from copies and arrows. He actually became the first protective equipment. And you seem to be "well" familiar with European fencing schools lol And then they should remember well that in a battle without a shield (with swords), in European schools the blow was parried by the plane of the blade, often with the transition to close combat. So I did not confuse it with a sword or rapier))
        Here, the article discusses the entire period of development of the Japanese sword, and you ask me a question only on the Carolingian and Romanesque types. And didn’t you try to view the entire millennium of the European sword ?! lol
        I don’t understand why it’s a shame to read? And what does the low quality of the European sword have to do with it? Eateries existed and were widespread in the late Middle Ages, this is a fact (I hope you will not dispute No. ) When they spread already had narrow blades - swords (walking in parallel with the sword). And just because of this narrowness they adapted to break. And about the euro. read the sword in the same place that it does not lend itself to such a fracture. So one more argument is sucked from your finger wassat And in general, if you do not know how to draw a conclusion from what you read, this is not for me))
        I did not write anything about stupid Europeans carrying on themselves too much, this is your invention. You are responsible for them. In military affairs there is a concept of development. If you compare with today, then tell me why engineers a hundred years ago did not create such an effective weapon as the T-90 tank? And, to be honest, answer that there was a process of developing weapons from simple to complex. Different solutions were tested, tested in real conditions, etc.
        And so yes, that's why the knights switched to plate steel armor, because he defended better hi
        1. marline
          marline 1 December 2017 11: 47
          +2
          Quote: Arkady Gaidar
          In fact, a shield is a very ancient invention, if you do not know, and the first thing it is intended to protect from copies and arrows

          Very clever remark. On this, your knowledge of shields, apparently, is limited? Have you heard anything about bucklers?
          Quote: Arkady Gaidar
          And then they should remember well that in a battle without a shield (with swords), in European schools the blow was parried by the plane of the blade, often with the transition to close combat.

          Wow ?! So do you know about the plane of the blade? So then the Japanese fended off blows with the blade plane. At the same time, naturally, lo and behold !, nothing bent or crashed ...
          Quote: Arkady Gaidar
          So I did not confuse it with a sword or rapier)) Here, the article considers the entire period of development of the Japanese sword, and you ask me a question only on the Carolingian and Romanesque types.

          Really, why ?! Maybe because you wrote about the "medieval swords" and not the swords of the Renaissance ???
          Yes, okay, figs with him ... renaissance is so renaissance. You think a little why you need a cunning guard
          Quote: Arkady Gaidar
          And didn’t you try to view the entire millennium of the European sword ?! lol

          And next time you try to write more clearly about what type of weapon and from what era you write))) Learn historical epochs and not write nonsense in which the hauberk is adjacent to the swords of the Renaissance era). And do it not on Wikipedia.
          Quote: Arkady Gaidar
          I don’t understand why it’s a shame to read? And what does the low quality of the European sword have to do with it?

          Steel, as it were, does not bend))) learn material science)
          Quote: Arkady Gaidar
          And about the euro. read the sword in the same place that it does not lend itself to such a fracture.

          Where it is "there" to read science is not known. It remains for me, to you, already as a first-grader to explain, that products from low-carbon steel, which in common parlance is simply called iron, do not break down - they bend. Steel breaks. Swords made of iron were considered and are considered frank g.
          Quote: Arkady Gaidar
          I did not write anything about stupid Europeans carrying on themselves too much, this is your invention.

          Really did not write.
          "The full chain mail armor ... against the European sword is very weak" - you wrote, I wrote that you’re stupid because you have very clearly set all the points here and are absolutely sure that the chain mail is ... against a certain "European sword" so that you did not invest in this concept.
          Doing demagoguery?))))
          Quote: Arkady Gaidar
          In military affairs there is a concept of development.

          Come on? Is it true?)))))) And the peasants do not know ...
          Quote: Arkady Gaidar
          And so yes, that's why the knights switched to plate steel armor, because he defended better hi

          But this is just what I wrote, my clever thoughts are not?)))))
          1. Arkady Gaidar
            Arkady Gaidar 1 December 2017 14: 02
            0
            I got it. Want to hobble, I dare not interfere. You can continue to grind the water in the mortar. What about the case, I told you, and you hang out next. Nada, America was discovered when they wrote about plate armor)) Clever thoughts are what you see for yourself. I just clarified the logic of the process and that’s it! I do not pretend to be anything else. And I did not try to refute your statement, if only because there is a known historical process.
            It is your fiction tongue I'm not going to bicker with you. If you want to dispute the above, then cite arguments proving the opposite. You are now engaged in ananism, rewriting what I wrote and trying to find fault. There is nothing productive in such a dialogue. and more precisely, it is in principle anti-scientific. So I wish you good luck in the future masturbation. Or state the facts proving the opposite! Good luck! hi
            1. marline
              marline 1 December 2017 14: 12
              +4
              Well, if you have nothing to say in the case, it’s better to remain silent ... You’ll look smarter)
              1. Arkady Gaidar
                Arkady Gaidar 1 December 2017 14: 39
                0
                Well, now I will ask questions, since you consider yourself so stumovym)) Did Japan practice fencing sword in sword? or maybe the samurai deflected the blow with the plane of the blade (soft protection, unlike European fektovaniya, where the sword was set hard)? Or do you not see the difference, puzzled by questions?)) Further, why take only two types of European sword for consideration? But what about one-and-a-half and two-handed, which besides the main one also had false guards, and rikaso for perekhfat and your branched guard unnoticed by you? Apparently here I had to write another story with details about the structure of European swords and the periods of their appearance, so what? And now, apparently, it doesn’t reach why he outlined it briefly? But still I think they decided to show themselves to be stumovymi wassat
                Go ahead. Why am I making a comment about medieval swords, and here, too, give an example of a shield from the late Middle Ages - a bakelier? Which became widespread even with the widespread use of firearms! Where is it written that chain mail is completely useless? Why do you ignore the experience of modern reenactors of European fights? If so, can you put on chain mail and let someone shine on you with a blunt European sword, for enlightenment? Maybe then you can understand how many bruises, bruises, and not rarely, fractures occur under chain mail (although it does not seem to pierce) laughing And, or, about the cleverly made guard, yet: What did you not notice for the author of the article, how does he describe the almost thousand-year period of the Japanese sword, breaking it into sub-periods? And here I reproach me that I indicated the "medieval sword"? I’ll ask again, did I need to write an article about the European sword and its periods in the comments? Or can you now answer about the European sword by its periods, since I do not understand anything about this? Let's wise guy, waiting for answers! wassat
                1. marline
                  marline 1 December 2017 15: 57
                  +2
                  Quote: Arkady Gaidar
                  Ok now i will ask questions

                  We will not answer, but we ask questions ... again, demagogy, as it is)))
                  Quote: Arkady Gaidar
                  soft protection, unlike European fektovaniya, where the sword was set hard?

                  Firstly, fencing) Secondly, the basic principles that Japanese, medieval European fencing are the same. In both Japanese and European fencing, the main types of parries were: strike evasion; knocking down strikes; moving forward to interrupt the strike, or parry into a plane. And the latter was not too welcome. In other matters, you are guided by the cinema - yes, there, the knights parry hard ...)))
                  Quote: Arkady Gaidar
                  Further, why take into consideration only two types of European sword?

                  I already answered this question for you, but I can repeat it again - you wrote about medieval swords.
                  Quote: Arkady Gaidar
                  But what about one and a half hands and two hands,

                  Very nice swords. I treat them wonderful. I did not consider them for the reason that they began to appear only in the late 13th century. And then see the answer above. Maybe instead of showing off, just explain which particular sword you had in mind.
                  Quote: Arkady Gaidar
                  Why am I making a comment about medieval swords, and here, too, give an example of a shield from the late Middle Ages - a bakelier? Which became widespread even with the widespread use of firearms!

                  The mention of fists is found in both the Celts and the Franks. It was widely used in Byzantium from the 8th century. And the earliest fencing treatise dates back to the 13th century, when it was already widespread ... Even Wikipedia knows this. Would be ashamed.
                  Quote: Arkady Gaidar
                  Where is it written that chain mail is completely useless?

                  Can you read? read above, I already wrote about this ...
                  Quote: Arkady Gaidar
                  And here I reproach me that I indicated the "medieval sword"?

                  Maybe enough from empty to empty already pour?)
                  Quote: Arkady Gaidar
                  I’ll ask again, did I need to write an article about the European sword and its periods in the comments?

                  Well, you wanted to consider the differences between European swords and Japanese swords in all their diversity, and also with application.
                  But seriously, then I have only three questions for you, maybe already finally answer:
                  1. What kind of sword with a developed guard do you bring in contrast to the katana.
                  2. On what basis did you decide that the "European sword" from item 1 does not break?
                  3. On what basis do you claim that “The full chain mail armor ... against the European sword is very weak”?
                  1. Arkady Gaidar
                    Arkady Gaidar 1 December 2017 17: 06
                    +5
                    Well now, in order. I agree that in vain he has deified under the term "medieval sword" all types of European sword. I thought they would understand me, so as not to paint on the subtypes, of which there are a lot of, but for people like you, apparently this is an occasion to rest. Do I focus on movies, no. I will not hide that I made up my mind talking to the reenactors. In Japanese fencing (by the way, thanks for the amendment)) I am guided by the opinion of those who are engaged in it. In this case, Kendoists (I agree that the sporting and inferior option is combat, but there were no others at hand).
                    "the latter was not too welcome." Yes, only this protection is far from rare. For the blow occurs in a split second and during the same time it is necessary to respond to it. And for some reason this is an extreme case for you. So what?))
                    I do not show off and still explain. For some time he worked as an apprentice in a modern forge (a locksmith in our opinion). They didn’t make swords, because it is considered edged weapons and there are legislative restrictions. Although several times participated in the clandestine manufacture for wealthy uncles. So the smithy had a good library on this craft. I took books to read. For consideration, this article specifically mentioned two-handed swords and the transitional type from sword to sword (I don’t remember the number and name of the classification, with developed guard 14 century Spain, Italy, France).
                    You concluded that chain mail is completely useless! If you focus on everyone’s imagination, there’s not enough books! Have you already donned and tried on yourself how it is with a chain mail sword? I tried the reenactors, discomfort. And you know, apparently that's why they are guided by the European lamellar armor over chain mail, or kirass. But in order for you not to find fault again, I will already remember for you that the lamellar is widespread right up to Asia). So arrange the answer?
                    And where did you conclude that the European sword does not break, indicate in the text? I did not write about this, but only mentioned that the Japanese swords were brittle and could not withstand strong excesses and twisting movements. Information on European swords, I know from the same library, that, thanks to the width of the blade and elasticity, they mainly held such loads (I will again point out that at the base, and close to the tip, it was indicated that the thickness of the blade is only a couple of millimeters and therefore good flexibility and springiness). As far as I know, reenactors change five swords a year. They have one or two for competitions and five for training. As they explained, something like a cassette - one handle, and the blades are interchangeable.
                    Now where did you get the idea that I wrote that the European swords did not crumble? You asked this question earlier, but I did not answer, because your tone was making fun of that which is not written. I answer, from European museums, I visited Czech. There are mostly brand new swords that have been preserved in arsenals, But there are also those who participated in the battles, who were not jagged, but in many places who were hidden along the blade and resembling a saw. And I explain to you, this question was also clarified both in the Czech Republic and with the reenactors. The answer was simple: the European sword was sharpened like a chisel, because understood that when acting on armor, another sharpening would immediately become jagged, therefore, mainly dents formed.
                    About chainmail already explained. But again, for you I repeat, when he put on chain mail and was hit several times, it suddenly turned out that her flexibility is both a virtue and a disadvantage. And especially when they beat not with the sword, but with a brush. That guy, whose chain mail, switched to lamillar armor, saying that in one of his competitions he received a fracture of four floating ribs. Although he participated in a sword shield duel. This is so that you again do not have questions that I'm showing off. When it was necessary to find out, I went to specialists and checked a lot on myself. Where it is not clear, he asked)) Still have questions, dear wise guy? Oh yes, about the bakelier. You and I apparently mean the same treatise on fencing - the Spanish sword-bakler, which I have known for the 14 century (the beginning of the late Middle Ages). If you find somewhere that I wrote to myself, as the ultimate truth, let me know))
                    I did not want to write about the European sword in all its diversity. These are your inventions! Under the term "medieval sword" summarized the period of the sword in 8 to 17 century Europe. He did this briefly because the author of the article began to compare the Japanese sword (of the same periods) and the European one. Actually comparing two different roads. And now explain that where I exaggerated, or was showing off, a picky citizen?))
                    1. marline
                      marline 1 December 2017 17: 56
                      +2
                      Thank you for the detailed comment! You can, if you want, you would immediately write like that ... Now, actually by what they wrote:
                      I do not quite understand what kind of sword you mean, but it’s obvious that this is either Schiavon or Haudegen, maybe something else similar, i.e. blade from one and a half or a little shorter in length with a developed hilt, I understand correctly?
                      Further, lamellar over chain mail was not used in Western Europe. Before the creation of white armor, brigantines were in use, although I do not think that the difference in protection is fundamental, and it doesn’t matter - both of them are lamellar, i.e. provide better protection against cutting and puncture. In general, with proper skill, you can cut chain mail with a one-handed sword, but plate armor is unlikely to succeed, which is why the one-and-a-half you mentioned appeared and acted with both hands. And now a surprise - the katana was effective against the lamellar classic samurai armor, i.e. and with chain mail easily and simply copes. And this is not my mythical experience, which you may not believe, but a historical fact. So your first thesis is fundamentally wrong.
                      You have already agreed that the European swords broke, so given the fact that the thickness of the katana is stupidly greater, then the effort to break should be greater. Or will you argue that a thin nail is harder to break than a thick nail? You simply confuse the flexibility of a blade with its fracture resistance. This, by the way, is your second thesis.
                      Regarding the "chisel" - not all and not always. Carolingian swords were sharpened under a razor) In general, you have the idea of ​​a sword as a scrap of iron, with which ribs were broken, but this is not at all the case.
                      In general, it is possible to compare two such pick grasses as a bastard and a katana, since they were used with the same goals, against equivalent defenses. And, as a conclusion, we can say that in general it is an equivalent weapon, and everything will depend on in whose hands this weapon will be.
                      That's all for me, thanks for the discussion.
                      1. Arkady Gaidar
                        Arkady Gaidar 1 December 2017 18: 37
                        +2
                        Haudegen, now he looked in the internet, it was that sword that he had previously seen in books in the forge. There was also a description that this type of sword was used both with large shields, with bakeliers, and with a dag in the other hand. On account of what is worn with armor, I can not explain. I know only from the reenactors that chain mail was always worn under the cuirass and lamellar "sleeves" to cover the joints. And then the weight of the knight's set reached 35-40 kg. And in the case of bulletproof armor, they say that up to 70.
                        Regarding the efforts to scrape, I will refer again to the reenactors. They explained that the katana in the core is soft, and the blade is extremely stiff, like a modern file. Therefore, if you beat her in armor, she cries out. And the European sword, due to the large sharpening angles, is jammed. Otherwise, you can break anything. There is no ultimate strength here.
                        So carolings, as far as I know, were used in an era when only one in ten had chain mail. And their main opponent was a helmet, in those days often of bronze, bone, or felt hats in general, as well as a shield of wooden plates covered with cowhide.
                        Of course, you can compare these swords, but the fact of the matter is that the approach to the battle and the reservations were different in the West and in the East. Moreover, the same kendoist explained that Japanese armor (I myself only saw them in pictures and in articles on this topic) was largely leather, special dressing. Short metal inserts were inserted into the shoulders and other places. The reverse side of the arm, axillary hollows, the back side of the leg, remained unprotected (well, except for tight clothes). Therefore, here of course, the katana is suitable and how. And again to the reenactors, who said about the same moment that the chain mail holds a saber strike well. It was said that the cuts arose from heavy sabers of the type "canine", with a weighted tip. But about piercing strikes, the same restorers reported that saber blades on chain mail are almost useless, because due to the curvature of the blade, the force vector is different and dissipates the energy of the injection.
                        But, of course, I admit that I am not a specialist in fencing with medieval weapons, and I simply do not know all the subtleties. And again, turning to the reenactors, I remember that they do not like the katana for poor balance and weak guard (from their words) They said that where you can cut the European sword on the backswing, with the back of the blade, or with going away, hit the back of the blade with a swing, with katana you need to crank your arm and beat from the shoulder. And this is the loss of an important fraction of seconds and the enemy manages to defend himself.
                        To me personally, that cactana, that European sword, is just part of the story. Interesting only in terms of the development of military affairs. At some point it became interesting and I was engaged in independent study of the issue. And all the best to you!
                      2. Arkady Gaidar
                        Arkady Gaidar 15 December 2017 11: 58
                        0
                        Since you refused to apologize for your rudeness in communication and behaved like a narcissistic peacock, here's a video you accidentally found from manufacturers of Japanese katanas in Russia. Where the author confirms the perfect inflexibility of Japanese blades, with reference to manufacturing technology.
                        You are right, Japanese and European swords are comparable when it comes to fighting without armor. And the rest, I remind you of the saying: "Stubbornness is the prerogative of donkeys!"
                      3. Arkady Gaidar
                        Arkady Gaidar 15 December 2017 13: 33
                        0
                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP7tIL187I
  7. kalibr
    30 November 2017 18: 20
    +4
    Quote: Mikado
    put on an ebosi hat for forging

    Approaching the samurai caste!
    1. Mikado
      Mikado 30 November 2017 21: 02
      +2
      on the cap - yes! Again, a sword for a samurai .. "soul of a samurai", if not mistaken. soldier
    2. Rakti-kali
      Rakti-kali 1 December 2017 04: 10
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      Approaching the samurai caste!

      To whom!?? Take it higher! The blacksmith had the right to wear tough ebosi, which, until Muromachi, only noble courtiers had the right to wear, and from the middle of Muromachi only very distinguished samurai.
  8. kalibr
    30 November 2017 18: 26
    10
    Quote: Arkady Gaidar
    For lovers of Japanese military culture, this article has not revealed anything new. And understanding the European sword, it remained incomprehensible))

    And it’s hard for experts to say anything new. But in the VO more than 40 thousand registered. Are they all lovers of Japanese military culture? Knowing a lot about European swords? No! They are just interested in learning new things, for someone one thing, for someone else. There is the concept of target audience. Here for this CA there is a little more information than just in a popular article and a lot of photos that have never been published here, and indeed are not known in our online space. I believe that this is quite enough.
    1. Arkady Gaidar
      Arkady Gaidar 30 November 2017 18: 46
      +3
      Caliber! Then take it that I supplemented the article and broadened its horizons even more wink
      1. kalibr
        30 November 2017 22: 26
        +3
        Well, if this should be taken as broadening one's horizons, then ... so be it. But the question is: at the beginning of the first material the historiography of the subject was given. Books by Spevakovsky, Mitsuo Kure, Nosova, Turnbull ... You read them all, haven't you? Or is the extension based on "I talked with a familiar Kendoist"?
        1. Arkady Gaidar
          Arkady Gaidar 1 December 2017 11: 14
          +4
          The first material of this author on the sword, maybe read. If you want to convict me of a biased approach, then in vain. Say I'm a little familiar with blacksmithing. And I read a dozen good books on this subject in due time. I can’t say that I became a great specialist in the forge, but I have an idea about the essence of the processes. And I do not see anything sublime, as the author of the article describes, in the process of making swords. Ordinary physics and process chemistry. I also see no reason to delve into the individual subtleties of the small-town sword making. This process was everywhere similar, naturally, with its local characteristics. But there is nothing outstanding in these technologies! And, if you need to go deeper, you can find information from authors such as here. They will tell you where to look (although there is no reason yet). I repeat again, the author began to describe the Japanese sword not rationally, practically, but sublimely, spiritually, while trying to make a comparison with the European sword. So I left a comment, where I spoke about the difference in approaches in Europe and Japan, doing it rationally and practically. Leaving aside all this "spiritual" and traditional vanity.
          You are already the third today who is trying to look at my comment narrow-mindedly and convict of bias. And therefore I repeat once again: I consider the article unfinished. The author gave a comparison between a Japanese and a European sword, having gone into the area of ​​a sublime spiritual aspect in the production of this type of weapon. If it is worth comparing such blades, then you need to be a rationalist, consider swords inseparably from battle techniques and applied armor. That's all! laughing hi
          1. Grid
            Grid 2 December 2017 05: 37
            0
            Now Shpakovsky’s classic comment will follow ...
  9. prodi
    prodi 30 November 2017 18: 29
    +1
    it’s strange, of course, to read about some crucial features of such a primitive weapon, when almost everything (and even a little more) depends only on the fighter’s skill
  10. bunta
    bunta 30 November 2017 18: 44
    +7
    After hardening, the blade was released - it was again heated, but already to 160 degrees Celsius, and then it was again sharply cooled, repeating this operation sometimes several times.

    As always, when the kettle writes about production.
    Steel tempering occurs with natural or even slow cooling. It would be better to write how the temperature was determined. 160 degrees. At this temperature, it does not glow.
    1. Cat
      Cat 30 November 2017 19: 40
      +4
      So can you explain how to determine the temperature of the blade at 160 degrees?
      1. mar4047083
        mar4047083 30 November 2017 20: 18
        +2
        By the colors of the retardation. This is elementary. No witchcraft and "thermometers."
        1. bunta
          bunta 30 November 2017 20: 42
          +2
          Quote: mar4047083
          By the colors of the retardation.


          160 degrees? I am not a specialist in heat treatment, but from the technical school I remember something from 200-220 begins.
          1. Cat
            Cat 30 November 2017 20: 46
            +2
            The trouble is how to determine 160 degrees, and not 200 - 220?
            1. mar4047083
              mar4047083 30 November 2017 21: 53
              +2
              It is strange that Curious does not want to comment on the "mistakes" from the article, probably there is no mood. I'll try it myself. "The purpose of tempering is to reduce or completely relieve internal stresses in the product that appeared during hardening, improve plastic properties, reduce brittleness and slightly reduce hardness (the degree of hardness depends on the temperature of tempering), increase the viscosity. Three methods of tempering tempered steel are used: low - at a temperature of 150–250 ° C, medium - at a temperature of 350–450 ° C and high - at a temperature of 450–650 ° C.
              The tempering temperature for certain grades of steel (as well as various products) and the type of cooling medium are determined according to special tables.
              Heating during tempering is carried out in oil, nitrate or alkaline baths, as well as in gas, fuel oil or electric furnaces with an air atmosphere. In some cases, heating is applied in a furnace or on a heated metal plate. The total residence time of the product in the furnace during tempering is approximately 2-3 minutes per 1 mm of the smallest section of the part, but not less than 30-40 minutes.
              As a result of low-temperature tempering at a temperature of 150–250 ° C, internal stresses and brittleness of steel decrease, the hardness slightly decreases, and the viscosity slightly increases. Products that must have high hardness (cutting and measuring tools) are subject to low tempering. An average tempering at a temperature of 350–450 ° C slightly reduces hardness and significantly increases viscosity, steel resistance to impacts, strength and elasticity. It is used for saws, spring springs, hammers, dies, punches, automotive parts. High tempering at temperatures of 450-650 ° C completely eliminates internal stresses and provides the best combination of strength and toughness of steel with sufficient hardness. It is used for critical parts.
              Double tempering is used for tools, the surface of which must have different hardness (punch, die cut, piercing, chisel). For example, a chisel: the first tempering at a temperature below 300 ° C is performed for the cutting part, the second tempering at a temperature of 300–500 ° C for the chisel head.
              Thermal improvement of steel consists of hardening and high tempering processes. This improves the mechanical properties of steel, provides the possibility of machining. "Plumbing: A practical guide for a locksmith
              1. kalibr
                30 November 2017 22: 21
                +2
                Was all this to be written here? Would an article get better?
                1. mar4047083
                  mar4047083 30 November 2017 22: 29
                  +2
                  People asked, I answered. In my opinion, the article would be better if you, V.O. consulted with professional metallurgists.
                  1. kalibr
                    1 December 2017 08: 00
                    +2
                    Oh, oh, funny! And you know why? "Knowing metallurgists" ... I have a department in the foundry and a workshop master at my university. Went there to cast a dagger from bronze. They told me such a thing about arc melting, why it is not possible for them ... I told them - but what about the ancients ... without an arc, without everything ... in response to a "pale look". Here on the site there is only one knowledgeable metallurgist. But ... regarding Japanese swords, I still trust Nosov more. Well, like that ... That is, I would have understood the reproach - "Well, what didn’t you look at Nosov properly ?!" And I looked ... and not only with him, but also with Tenrbull and Layble ... and ... about which, again, at the beginning of the first article.
                    1. Grid
                      Grid 2 December 2017 16: 06
                      0
                      Well, knowing you, I’m never going to doubt the department of "foundry" business of your high bursa ...
              2. bunta
                bunta 30 November 2017 22: 21
                +2
                Quote: mar4047083
                Heating during tempering is carried out in oil, nitrate or alkaline baths, as well as in gas, fuel oil or electric furnaces with an air atmosphere.


                gun trunks in a lead bath, he has a temperature of 370
  11. bunta
    bunta 30 November 2017 18: 58
    +3
    The standard process of forging a sword consisted (and consists!) Of putting the core into a letter-V shell. From this steel rod, a blank for the blade is now forged. Although there are even more complex techniques ...


    The shell is made of high carbon steel. It is she who is tempered. And the "core" - the main body of the blade made of soft low-carbon iron - will be tempered.
    With "pure iron" is too much. It is now difficult to obtain.
  12. bunta
    bunta 30 November 2017 19: 17
    +9
    Although, of course, from a cultural point of view, making a sword for a Japanese blacksmith was a truly spiritual, almost sacred act.

    There was no esoteric difference between the Japanese Katana blacksmith, the European or Russian sword blacksmith, the Caucasian checker blacksmith, or the Asian master of damask or damascus. Do you like botanists and lawyers to let sacred fog not for the sake of truth, but only to impart mystery to the craft in which you don’t understand a damn thing. At dinner, the Russian blacksmith will not take up a spoon until he reads the prayer. What can I say about work?
    1. Cat
      Cat 30 November 2017 21: 19
      +5
      Any creative work has a "sacred meaning"!
      Although any smith of antiquity will be outnumbered by a second-lancer a double. That is who the number of "set-off rituals" is not inferior to an advanced shaman of the middle hand.
    2. kalibr
      30 November 2017 23: 13
      0
      bunta But the word "isoteric" does not fit here. The meaning is a little different. This word means "secret." And the Japanese blacksmith, like the Russian, remembered the divine powers, in their own way, so that they would help them. Feel the difference? And the phrase itself that you do not like is fully consistent with what we know about this process. Read what Matsuo Kure writes about this - not a lawyer or a nerd, Japanese. However, they and we are all bad, but this is understandable.
      1. M. Michelson
        M. Michelson 1 December 2017 00: 24
        +4
        In ancient times, blacksmiths were surrounded by reverence. So the selection of a Japanese master is illegal.
        1. kalibr
          1 December 2017 07: 55
          +1
          Not quite right: the blacksmiths were both the clan of the revered and the clan ... despised at the same time. In different cultures, of course. And in white when forging they wore only ...
          1. Rakti-kali
            Rakti-kali 1 December 2017 11: 16
            +1
            Quote: kalibr
            Not quite right: the blacksmiths were both the clan of the revered and the clan ... despised at the same time.

            Nobody anywhere and never despised the forge. Shunned - shunned (because by the level of contacts with the otherworldly blacksmith was considered to be nothing less than a shaman), but they did not despise.
            1. kalibr
              1 December 2017 13: 43
              +2
              "No one anywhere and never despised the forge." Here again ... You do not know, but UNCONFIRMATELY APPROVED. Do you think I am doing the same? No! I know the book of a famous specialist, very famous, where there is a whole chapter about it. Could give a name, p. But I will not give. I’ll do better one more material about this, and I’ll take your comment with an epigraph. Can?

              By the way, now you understand why I have a low opinion of the knowledge of many commentators. They don’t know, but they write ... At least I have links to everything!
              1. Grid
                Grid 16 December 2017 16: 17
                +1
                [quote] No! I know the book of a famous specialist, very famous, where there is a whole chapter about it. Could give a name, p. But I will not give. / Quote]
                The great specialist Shpakovsky, knows the BOOK of another GREAT specialist ...
                The name will not give, because I have not had time to get it together yet.
                Although I guess what a book is.
                Shpakovsky, also extremely uninteresting, predictable, completely hovering on the Hershey system and learning to masterfully circumvent the anti-plogiata system ...
                Here I have one question for you, and what have you done new in your industry? Why are you so fucking ugly needed?
                Z.Y. Anticipating your shots, I’ll answer, with my copyright certificates you can glue the middle one-bedroom apartment. This is for the time that I was still young and stupid.
  13. Alceers
    Alceers 30 November 2017 19: 58
    +1
    Quote: mar4047083
    but technological processes cannot be read without tears.

    Quote: Arkady Gaidar
    Conclusion: For lovers of Japanese military culture, this article did not discover anything new. And understanding the European sword, it remained incomprehensible))

    Quote: bunta
    As always, when a kettle writes about production

    Quote: bunta
    Do you like botanists and lawyers to let sacred fog not for the sake of truth, but only to add mystery to the craft

    As you can see the dear caliber, you again sat in a puddle with your opus. Maybe turn a site into a garbage can? By the way, few of your twins were noted with praise of the unsurpassed you (yourself). Let's quickly log in, charge the pluses
    1. Curious
      Curious 30 November 2017 20: 18
      +6
      By the way, few of your twins were noted with praise of the unsurpassed you (yourself).
      And I?!
      1. Cat
        Cat 30 November 2017 20: 58
        +8
        And we’ll “shoot” Viktor, what’s the reason for keeping such “smart” ones on the forum?
        Now, seriously. I was always killed by the fact that if necessary, something "pile", "create" and "write" the craftsmen "netuti". Occasionally, there are days when the heading "history" remains empty.
        But when articles and materials appear, critics as hell out of the "snuff box", especially those who consider themselves to be "spetsialists". Dear, if you do not agree, then the pen in oki, clave in the teeth and go! The VO site will only win.
        1. Mikado
          Mikado 30 November 2017 21: 05
          +5
          And we’ll “shoot” Viktor, what’s the reason for keeping such “smart” ones on the forum?

          Vladislav, I agree! Shoot him! fellow drinks He ... he always overwhelmed me with intelligence and knowledge ... crying and he does not like Indian monkeys! fellow
          Now, seriously. I was always killed by the fact that if necessary, something "pile", "create" and "write" the craftsmen "netuti". Occasionally, there are days when the heading "history" remains empty.

          because there are more "smart critics" than other users. wink eeeh .. put me against the wall next to Curios. recourse We need a bottle of vodka (for two) and a pack of cigarettes (for me). drinks
          1. Cat
            Cat 30 November 2017 21: 11
            +5
            Good evening Nikolai! hi
            I had such feelings. All professors take care of their slippers The cattle declares a hunt for them!
            1. Mikado
              Mikado 30 November 2017 21: 22
              +3
              Write a request for a warehouse of ATV - more cartridges and a replaceable barrel. It hurts a lot of people to shoot. Are docents considered? Good Doctors? Former police captains? Annunaki reptilians?
              Where is Marat? Marat, did they talk about racial penguin theory? Please take a seat in the front row! fellow
              Where is Venya? Everyone, dear man, jumped with haplogroups! Take a place of honor! hi
              Anton (3x3save)! Miserable do not dismiss. stop Fibonacci numbers mentioned? Hi everybody! request
              In general, we have a table, a box of vodka, a block of cigarettes and snacks! and then .. shoot! soldier The main thing is that those gathered before the shooting do not kill each other because of differences of opinion ... what laughing drinks otherwise the show will be ruined!

              Joke! but .. you can laugh drinks
              1. Cat
                Cat 30 November 2017 21: 56
                +4
                No, Nikolai, I seem to offend Victor with my humor. Someone, but he definitely didn’t want to “catch”! I'm going to blame myself.
                1. Mikado
                  Mikado 30 November 2017 22: 15
                  +3
                  You have not offended anyone, quit! humor is humor drinks
          2. mar4047083
            mar4047083 30 November 2017 22: 12
            +4
            You can’t drink vodka. You do not read the comments of V.N. According to his covenants, distillates must be consumed. Use whiskey (nickname obliges the manufacturer Suntory), goes well with cigars.
            1. Mikado
              Mikado 30 November 2017 22: 18
              +3
              goes well with cigars.

              no matter how much I tried, I did not learn to smoke them .. recourse Distillates .. it will be necessary to ask both of you in more detail, otherwise I am completely behind the times! request
              1. Cat
                Cat 30 November 2017 22: 22
                +5
                Quote: Mikado
                goes well with cigars.

                no matter how much I tried, I did not learn to smoke them .. recourse Distillates .. it will be necessary to ask both of you in more detail, otherwise I am completely behind the times! request

                I don’t understand anything? This is cooler than valerian!
                1. Mikado
                  Mikado 30 November 2017 22: 52
                  +2
                  introduced Cat with valerian and cigar. You think it's worth testing out on my Mikado? laughing I will have a very cool drinking companion! good drinks
              2. mar4047083
                mar4047083 30 November 2017 22: 39
                +4
                Nothing complicated. Like that. The main thing is more ice, and no other additives.
                1. Mikado
                  Mikado 30 November 2017 22: 44
                  +2
                  five with a plus! good subtle, intricate! Appreciated your hand and the contents of the glass. laughing I’ll go pour myself (no whiskey, you have to have non-distillate request ) wink well, for a nice discussion! drinks and for an honest company!
                  1. mar4047083
                    mar4047083 30 November 2017 22: 57
                    +3
                    Connoisseurs argue that you must certainly use Scotch tape, but this is a consumer fraud. It is a pity that we stopped selling Japanese drinks. But how, you know: for not having a lady, gentlemen use maids.
                    1. Mikado
                      Mikado 30 November 2017 23: 06
                      +2
                      for not having a lady, gentlemen use maids

                      I more and more like the train of your thoughts ... wink You would, friends, work as preachers, solid "enlighteners" around, I just have time to raise the level of educational. fellow (absolutely serious!) One taught buckwheat to cook with cracklings, the other enlightened on drinks good I don’t know if it’s possible to get Japanese whiskey .. I need to look. what And .. I’ll become an oligarch - I’ll start a maid, not discussed! good well, just in case repeat and there’s always a reinforced concrete excuse - "Mikado cat has too much hair, shedding 365 days a year"! soldier
                  2. kalibr
                    1 December 2017 07: 51
                    +1
                    mar4047083 That's exactly what advertising should be done! Congratulations! Just two in one !!! Your photo will go as an example to my students.
                    1. mar4047083
                      mar4047083 1 December 2017 13: 09
                      +1
                      I do not understand, but the second is what? Ice or what?
                      1. kalibr
                        1 December 2017 13: 38
                        +1
                        "Holy simplicity" - HOURS! You could wear any ... It didn’t occur to you that this is an advertisement, but this is an advertisement! And so there is also a laptop - THREE!
                2. kalibr
                  30 November 2017 23: 07
                  +4
                  Kettukey whiskey ... that's cool! But since you are a fan, I advise you to try the Irish triple cleaning and “island”, from the Isle of Man, White, with smoke from peat, aftertaste of smoked meats, seaweed ... very funny.
                  1. mar4047083
                    mar4047083 30 November 2017 23: 25
                    +1
                    I guess I have spoiled tastes. With all due respect, I'm afraid not to appreciate your choice. I will dwell on the Kentucky workers 'and peasants' drinks. Again, V.O., the financial component is an important factor.
                    1. kalibr
                      1 December 2017 13: 37
                      +1
                      "financial component is an important factor"
                      A couple of times everything is possible ...
                3. Curious
                  Curious 1 December 2017 00: 19
                  +3
                  In good whiskey, ice is not needed. Distillery tried, verified the taste, drowned with peat, and you go there - ice. Sacrilege. If you really want to put ice in a whiskey (good whiskey), then do it at least after the first sip. And ice should be prepared accordingly.
                  But bourbon, its yes, without ice in any way. I do not want to offend anyone, God forbid, but this is a harsh truth.
                  1. mar4047083
                    mar4047083 1 December 2017 08: 33
                    +2
                    I agree. Bourbon worker-peasant drink. But again, a matter of taste and financial component.
                    1. Curious
                      Curious 1 December 2017 10: 28
                      +1
                      When the question of price / quality arose, I sacrificed quantity.
                      1. Mikado
                        Mikado 1 December 2017 11: 49
                        +4
                        looking at your discussion of the nuances, I felt unpretentious miserable laughing
                      2. mar4047083
                        mar4047083 1 December 2017 13: 15
                        +1
                        V.N. I am too mercantile. Until ready to make tenfold (or even twentyfold) sacrifices.
            2. dokusib
              dokusib 3 December 2017 07: 45
              0
              And what about vodka?
              1. Curious
                Curious 6 December 2017 20: 48
                0
                Vodka - rectified.
                1. Grid
                  Grid 16 December 2017 16: 26
                  0
                  Rectified is alcohol.
                  Vodka is prepared using a very specific technology.
                  But you cannot comprehend this, if you drink the rectificate, continue on.
    2. mar4047083
      mar4047083 30 November 2017 22: 04
      +9
      Strange, why not respected? Mainly at V.O. good articles, there are mistakes. And articles about matrices and such frankly boorish comments like yours turn the site into the trash.
      1. Mikado
        Mikado 30 November 2017 22: 22
        +6
        And articles about matrices and such frankly boorish comments like yours turn the site into the trash.

        subscribe to every word. good hi
    3. kalibr
      30 November 2017 22: 34
      +5
      I did not see a single serious remark. All 4 points made by you are empty words. Personal opinions, but not comments. Serious comments look like this: study: in the Nosov monograph on the page it is written ... and you ... why? Thomas Layble in his work ... on page writes ... Mitsuo Kure pays attention to pages .... and pages, and the caption under the photo does not correspond to what Kure gives ... I have never met such a thing. Everything else is blah blah. Bother not blah blah - it's in kindergarten in the sandbox ...
  14. SPLV
    SPLV 30 November 2017 21: 13
    0
    The resulting bar was bent several times up and down, and again and again forged, repeating this technique about several times.

    An interesting clarification. First, centimeters, millimeters, and then suddenly, like a butt on the head, "about several times." An interesting clarification.
    1. kalibr
      30 November 2017 22: 37
      +2
      What it was, he wrote it. How much do you need?
      1. SPLV
        SPLV 1 December 2017 00: 35
        0
        Why so aggressive? Personally, I do not how much. It is simply better to exclude the word “approximately” from the phrase, or use numerals after it. I understand my tediousness, I could write in a personal, too lazy. I respect your work. And here is a small jamb.
        1. kalibr
          1 December 2017 07: 49
          +2
          Not aggressively, but straight to the point. But if you thought so, sorry. And about "about" - yes I agree. Unity of supply of material requires. This is a good point to think about.
      2. AlexMark
        AlexMark 1 December 2017 01: 06
        +2
        Well, so that it was beautiful, after etching, layers of 100-200, this is the most important parameter of the blade laughing Japanese Damascus, this is the most important weapon of sofa ninja))) The main thing is that the handle is hollow and there the mercury overflows. Just hammer.
  15. AlexMark
    AlexMark 1 December 2017 00: 46
    +2
    I am here with my primitive firearm, of course out of place ... but like that, a pebble on a checker ... "And Puulya knows exactly who she doesn't like")))
  16. Rakti-kali
    Rakti-kali 1 December 2017 03: 56
    +2
    Vyacheslav, to my surprise (pleasant), this article does not cause a desire to hack its author. But still a few points are worth clarifying:
    The standard process of forging a sword consisted (and consists!) Of putting the core into a letter-V shell. From this steel rod, a blank for the blade is now forged. Although there are even more complex techniques ...

    and. There are a lot of ways and methods of welding a blade from elements of different hardnesses in Japan, and not only more complex, but also simpler.
    b. I would like to see more examples of such welding, at least 3-4.
    And as if I re-read Wikipedia.
    But the most difficult step in the manufacture of the sword was its hardening. And here, Japanese technology was definitely different from European. The Japanese finished the blade covered with a mixture of clay, sand and charcoal

    Europeans are surprised to learn from you that they really did not know anything about zone hardening ...
    What did the European blacksmiths not have to take care of and what should the Japanese remember? The European sword was symmetrical, so it cooled evenly. Japanese had a curvature, which during hardening could change due to uneven cooling, sometimes up to 13 millimeters.

    Just the symmetry was the result of uniform cooling, and not vice versa, and in Europe the hardening process was no less hemorrhoid than in Japan, or even more. But where the European Schmidts could relax so when forging the European close relative of the katana - the Falchion, there, due to uneven cooling, the curvature could change to much larger values ​​than 13 mm. But nobody cared.
    Therefore, sharpening and polishing are a single process.

    Due not so much to the features of the geometry of the katana, how much to the disgusting quality of iron and a very humid climate - they polished small shells over the entire surface of the sword so that it would not become rotten.
    1. kalibr
      1 December 2017 07: 44
      +1
      You wrote interesting things, but a number are no less controversial. For example, the last, about disgusting quality ... Have you seen the photo? And the "disgusting" mass blades simply did not reach us. After the Sword Hunt, Hideyoshi made nails on a Buddha statue from them. And about the army of the twentieth century and there is no question. Again ... this is popular science stuff. There are no links to sources in it.
      1. Rakti-kali
        Rakti-kali 1 December 2017 11: 34
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        For example, the last, about disgusting quality ... Have you seen the photo?

        Can you determine the quality of steel from the photo? Then my friend - a radiologist, the head of the quality control department at the plant collecting products for the nuclear industry, is ready to hire you on almost any of your conditions.
        The poor quality of steel for swords in medieval Japan with photographs of truly unique blades (mainly from good Chinese or Korean iron) cannot be undone, this is due to both the low efficiency of the Tatars, which give a huge amount of slag in iron, and the lack of high-quality charcoal, which does not allow burn out impurities during reforging of raw-iron iron and carbonize it qualitatively.
        Quote: kalibr
        And the "disgusting" mass blades simply did not reach us.

        Yes, but the sharpening-grinding technology was designed for mass swords and the Japanese did not change it for the sake of piece goods.
  17. shinobi
    shinobi 1 December 2017 04: 31
    +3
    Briefly, all of the above can be summarized in one way — The manufacturing method was determined by the quality of the raw material. The ore in Japan was rather lousy and mostly alluvial in nature. The type of blade determined the quality of the armor. So, in the era of unification wars, the blades were wide and heavy. More designed to break through .In peacetime, preference was given to thinner and lighter blades with an emphasis on slotted work. More curved. In general, Japanese blades should be compared rather with products such as falsion or grandmaster.
    1. kalibr
      1 December 2017 07: 39
      +1
      That's right. The same Thomas Layble compares them with European sabers, referring to such an authoritative specialist as John Clements. But to say all this is not enough. Read the article more interesting.
    2. Arkady Gaidar
      Arkady Gaidar 1 December 2017 15: 07
      0
      I absolutely agree with you and I will assume that the author in vain undertook to compare the incomparable. Two different regions of the world where the development of sho is different, including in swords. True, a grandmaster, if it should be compared here, is with a daito. In Europe, the infantry had a two-handed saber (weapons of commoners and militias), but not as widespread as a sword, and therefore little is known about its application techniques. But this is the most suitable option when comparing with the "Japanese". I think the author in vain undertook to compare two different roads. Moreover, as you said, the quality of steels in Japan was far from the best.
  18. kalibr
    1 December 2017 07: 45
    +1
    Quote: AlexMark
    Well, so that it was beautiful, after etching, layers of 100-200, this is the most important parameter of the blade laughing Japanese Damascus, this is the most important weapon of sofa ninja))) The main thing is that the handle is hollow and there the mercury overflows. Just hammer.

    Who and when and where did he write about mercury? There is an interesting book called Ninja (Eksmo / Yauza) - there is nothing about it. No Steven Terbull in his Ninja ...
  19. marline
    marline 1 December 2017 09: 00
    +1
    Good afternoon, Vyacheslav Olegovich. Thanks for the article, the photos are very good.
    Although, as already noted in the comments, they screwed up the technology)
    1. kalibr
      1 December 2017 09: 10
      +1
      Good day to you too! They screwed up about it ... I didn’t invent it all, right? Such articles are 100% compilation. And by the way, what articles in Russian on Japanese weapons are not compilation, I would like to know? So this is a very controversial statement. I’m not too lazy, I’ll find Nosov’s phone, I’ll contact him and ask him to indicate what’s wrong. Or what should be improved. It will be interesting ... But it is hardly necessary, since it is so "narrow" that it would simply be unethical to take the place and time from the site.
      1. marline
        marline 1 December 2017 09: 47
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        I’m not too lazy, I’ll find Nosov’s phone, I’ll contact him and ask you to indicate what’s wrong.

        I’ll tell you so. In general, everything is correctly written. Problems with cause and effect relationships - in some places. For example, the same “homogenization” was obligatory for European blacksmiths, since the raw-iron iron is still in town and slags need to be knocked out. But after this wonderful process, the Europeans in some cases forged Damascus, and the yapes did not bother and stupidly welded.
        In principle, you wrote this, but it seems that the Japanese had some very tricky way of their own.
      2. Rakti-kali
        Rakti-kali 1 December 2017 11: 36
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        They screwed up about it ... I didn’t invent it all, right? Such articles are 100% compilation.

        That's the talent of the compiler - explicit blunders to cut off from your article.
        1. kalibr
          1 December 2017 13: 33
          +1
          Correctly. But where is the criterion of a blunder? Something ignorance or authority of the source?
          1. Rakti-kali
            Rakti-kali 2 December 2017 02: 32
            0
            Quote: kalibr
            Correctly. But where is the criterion of a blunder? Something ignorance or authority of the source?

            A very authoritative author writes that on the other side of the earth people walk upside down and they have dog’s heads. Will we take this for a confirmed fact? Or is it worth pointing out that this is not true, for modern science does not know such facts? What to choose?
            Z.Y. By the way, I also love sayings, for example: "Dyaka to teach - what to treat the dead."
            1. kalibr
              2 December 2017 08: 23
              0
              “A very authoritative author writes that on the other side of the earth people walk upside down and they have dog’s heads” - authoritative authors do not write this, because they are authoritative. And regarding your saying - that's right. Moreover, to teach or convince in comments. Once again - that is why at the beginning of the article a bibliography on the topic was given.
              1. Rakti-kali
                Rakti-kali 2 December 2017 12: 41
                +3
                Quote: kalibr
                authoritative authors do not write this, therefore they are authoritative.

                Oh, pilad ... Hesiod, Herodotus, Pliny the Elder, Aurelius Augustine, Karpini - for their time there were such authoritative authors that you could not even notice you from their heights of authority, but that didn’t stop them from writing about movie cinema like about a reliable fact in objective reality. So sho ne nada of this your la la la for authoritative AFFtorov, the verification of the facts is always on the conscience of the author of the article, and not the source, and it is strange that you positioning yourself as a scientist do not know this.
                1. kalibr
                  2 December 2017 16: 20
                  +1
                  Hesiod, Herodotus, Pliny the Elder, Aurelius Augustine, Karpini - you can not interfere with a bunch of authoritative authors of different eras, right? It is strange that you do not know this. And did Karpini write about film cephals? AND ... FOR THE THIRD TIME I WRITE (!!!) - read books from the list - EVERYTHING HAS BEEN CHECKED AGAIN!
                  1. Rakti-kali
                    Rakti-kali 2 December 2017 21: 19
                    +1
                    Quote: kalibr
                    Hesiod, Herodotus, Pliny the Elder, Aurelius Augustine, Karpini - you can not interfere with a bunch of authoritative authors of different eras, right? It is strange that you do not know this.


                    Why did you sirloin with sirloin ... Or didn’t you really understand that the authority of the source should always be evaluated in accordance with modern objective reality? And that the responsibility for errors ALWAYS lies not with the source, but with the author who did not check the correspondence of the "authoritative source" with modern scientific data.
                    Quote: kalibr
                    AND ... FOR THE THIRD TIME I WRITE (!!!) - read books from the list - EVERYTHING HAS BEEN CHECKED AGAIN!

                    There are no more words ... see the picture above.
                    1. dokusib
                      dokusib 3 December 2017 08: 17
                      0
                      THREE, there is no better FIVE asterisks !!!!!
  20. kalibr
    1 December 2017 09: 14
    +1
    Quote: Rakti-Kali
    Vyacheslav, to my surprise (pleasant), this article does not cause a desire to hack its author.

    There is such a rude saying. Never show ... half the work! Moreover, experience shows that this applies to smart people, and not just .... So do not be offended. I didn’t come up with this saying, just as I didn’t ruin the chapel. Wait until the end of the cycle. And yet ... look at historiography ...
  21. kalibr
    1 December 2017 09: 55
    +2
    Quote: merlin
    In principle, you wrote this, but it seems that the Japanese had some particularly tricky way

    Here !!! And you noticed that too. And wherever I read about it - the impression remains of a certain ... "greater complexity" or something. Perhaps just because of the larger number of letters is ridiculous, yes, but there is a feeling.
    1. marline
      marline 1 December 2017 10: 48
      +1
      Indeed, the "abundance" of all sorts of different names among the Japanese, of course, is simply amazing. Here, I think, the fact is that with this they somewhat compensated for the small number of types of swords used. In fact, we are dealing with only one single form, while the variety of different types of piercing-chopping-cutting in Europe and in the east is huge (only 13 straight types of swords). And the Japanese blacksmiths wanted the same to stand out and show off. So they invented it.
  22. Curious
    Curious 1 December 2017 11: 53
    +1
    Mikado,
    Patience and a little effort.
    1. Mikado
      Mikado 1 December 2017 13: 06
      +2
      Patience and a little effort.

      the boy Vasya received the set “Young plumber” for his decade, and a week later he got drunk on hell laughing joke! drinks
  23. mar4047083
    mar4047083 1 December 2017 13: 17
    +2
    Mikado,
    And in vain.
    1. Mikado
      Mikado 1 December 2017 13: 21
      +2
      so ice is needed or not !? request drinks (Then he looked at how our avatars looked: Japan’s answer to the courageous African - and laughed! laughing )
      1. mar4047083
        mar4047083 1 December 2017 13: 29
        +2
        This is a whole Australian. Offend strive Mikado citizen.
        1. Mikado
          Mikado 1 December 2017 14: 10
          +1
          sorry! hi no, if I were choosy in haplogroups - I would immediately understand that I’m dealing with an Australian Slav request but alas! laughing
          in short, I understood everything. I do not have to be a foodie. recourse I'll try with ice .. drinks
      2. Curious
        Curious 1 December 2017 13: 32
        +2
        Very briefly.
        If you drink this, then there should be no ice in the radius of a cannon shot.

        And if you suddenly got the Blue Label King George V Edition, then washing your hands before use will not hurt.
        But in Red Label, the ice is completely filled, since without it it is very difficult to swallow a young whiskey fishery.
        1. mar4047083
          mar4047083 1 December 2017 13: 50
          +2
          You can’t argue, but I feel sorry for the money. Jack Daniels (or equivalent) + ice = 1500-3000, Blue Label = 16000, Blue Label King George V Edition = 56000. Not ready yet.
          1. Curious
            Curious 1 December 2017 14: 05
            +1
            In the price range you indicated, if I was not mistaken in "transliteration", there are very decent views.
            Black Label somewhere 4000 r.
            Gold Label is more expensive, closer to 6000.
            Well and Chivas Regal. 12 years old, I think the same 3000 - 4000 will fit. 18 year old to 6500.
            This is 0,7. And all this is already without ice.
            1. mar4047083
              mar4047083 1 December 2017 14: 19
              +1
              Not, B, N, all of the above has fallen in price by 1.5 times. But, you, a fan of Scotland, and I have to drink Negro drinks with my spoiled tastes, if sometimes Japanese ones turn out.
              1. Curious
                Curious 1 December 2017 14: 28
                +2
                Why Scotland. I am interested in variety. Try Tullamore Dew, "Trilogy" 15 Years Old. Ireland. Extract in bourbon barrels.
                1. mar4047083
                  mar4047083 1 December 2017 14: 43
                  +2
                  Exactly. How I forgot about the "dirty Irish." No wonder Caliber recommended them. You should use your advice. The article would be written on the topic "Production of alcohol-containing liquids. From antiquity to the present."
                  1. Curious
                    Curious 1 December 2017 14: 48
                    +3
                    There are many nuances, you need to be a specialist. And I'm just a lover sometimes in good company to sit and talk. But vodka (exactly modern) is not suitable for this. Yes, and had to travel around the world. So addicted. But in very moderate amounts.
                    1. Mikado
                      Mikado 1 December 2017 14: 58
                      +2
                      But in very moderate amounts.

                      We will then discuss your moral character separately. wink I still remember the monkeys. laughing In general, to be honest, a good educational program in terms of drinks. hi and culture of consumption ... thanks!
                      1. Curious
                        Curious 1 December 2017 15: 08
                        +2
                        Dave Broome. Whiskey. Atlas of the world.
                        Ingvar Ronde. Malt whiskey yearbook
                        Erkin Tuzmukhamedov. Whiskey. Guide
                        Read. It will be a small educational program.
                  2. kalibr
                    1 December 2017 16: 24
                    +3
                    Try it here. It is possible with and without ice ...
                    I don’t remember how much it costs, but not overly ...
                    1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Mikado
          Mikado 1 December 2017 14: 13
          +2
          then washing your hands before use will not hurt.

          taking into account how much "self-knowledgeable" I hold in my hands at work (secretly praying to Emperor Vespasian), there is no problem with this. stop I can give lectures. More only Good Doctor about hygiene will read laughing
          1. mar4047083
            mar4047083 1 December 2017 14: 33
            +2
            This is V.N. figuratively expressed that we with due reverence approached old things. I wonder what to do if century-old dust on the vessel? The hands are clean and the bottle is dirty, and the dirt is historical. How to use is not clear.
            1. Curious
              Curious 1 December 2017 14: 43
              +2
              "Hands are clean, and the bottle is dirty, and the dirt is historical. How to use unclear".
              With due respect.
            2. Mikado
              Mikado 1 December 2017 14: 47
              +2
              mmm ... you can no longer drink, the brain and so will be broken by dissonance and inability to make a decision. wassat I suddenly wanted vodka ... what How else to work half a day is incomprehensible, your task is spinning in the brain. belay
  24. mar4047083
    mar4047083 1 December 2017 14: 09
    +1
    kalibr,
    It does not count. Samsung has stopped production of laptops - this is no longer advertising. The name is not readable on the watch (can be classified as Chinese), and I can’t wear any, since there are only two of them (due to low earnings).
    1. kalibr
      1 December 2017 16: 13
      +1
      This is an example, no more ... Typical product placement.
      I wrote to one detractor who wrote down the above-mentioned colleagues in my clones and "praisers" that the modern information society has its own laws. What to create virtual doubles that you can not praise, it ... is not profitable! It is necessary to create those who CUT !!! This technique was also used by Gadfly in the novel Ethel Lilian Voynich. This makes controversy possible. It seems to be "hurt" and you answer. This expands the possibilities of advertising infinitely. And in your case ... we correspond and so ... casually, mention the clock, (put your hand differently!), The laptop is modern and ... whiskey! 10 thousand views of your photo is cool! And how many hours you actually have is not interesting to anyone. The main hand is impressive and entourage ... Tomorrow my masters report on the topic "non-trivial advertising". This is an example to them .... And mine too! You will find above ...
      1. mar4047083
        mar4047083 1 December 2017 20: 04
        +1
        Then, you better turn to the “Bondiade”, here is a typical example. Today, he became a victim of advertising. Two "Irish promoters" hit me on rash actions. Now I'm writing and trying.
        1. kalibr
          1 December 2017 21: 19
          +2
          There are many examples of product placement. Not only the Bondiad, but the "Rich too cry" - there is plenty of it. But here is what they can right now ... And not expensive!
          1. mar4047083
            mar4047083 1 December 2017 22: 26
            +3
            Right Here, you’re right. For several hours, two “Irish promoters” brainwashed qualitatively. Minimum costs (cost of electricity + unlimited Internet). As a “victim” of advertising, I demand compensation. You have a historical article about drinks, Curious is a consultant.
  25. 2ez
    2ez 2 December 2017 01: 05
    0
    Sorry for the stupidity, but I dare to ask ALL reputable experts. And please tell me, what is the production technology of all these swords and other sabers? What material were they made of? As I understand it, these are iron things. Was plain marsh or critical iron used for this? Or was ore mined from the Kursk deposit? And then what did you do with her? Or with what technology? And the coal is not from the Donbass, by any chance? After all, for the production of REAL steel, the open-hearth furnace technology is NECESSARY? With its temperature not less than 1540 degrees, isn't it? And only Donetsk anthracite can give such a temperature. Why is it still in price! And carbon must be in a certain proportion, right? Because if it is more than 2%, then it will be cast iron. I still remember this from our Soviet school ... And now a purely human cognitive question arises? But how can history be shown without REAL science, what is CHEMISTRY? But in the Middle Ages, and even more ancient, alas, such a science did not exist !!! Everything was "by eye", as the respected author writes. And how you can do it “by eye,” “by chance,” and others, “and so it will come down,” we know very well ...
    By the way, the question is after ALL history buffs. Columbus discovered America in 1492 (as official history says), and he sailed almost strictly west. And now the question is: for a little more than 20 years, Magellan made his trip around the world. Anyone familiar with topography will understand me. Where did Fernando have ALL maps of South America to accurately sail south to the Strait of Magellan. HOW DOES THE CARDS MAKE FOR HIM?
    Is there something wrong in world history, don't you find?
    1. Grid
      Grid 2 December 2017 05: 57
      +2
      Was plain marsh or critical iron used for this?

      So the vast majority of iron was critical, until the end of the 18th century.
      And then what did you do with her?

      Depends on ore. There were many ways to prepare ore. Some of them made it possible to get more or less decent metal even from swamp ores, only it was an extremely hemorrhoid occupation and the sheepskin was simply not worth the effort, since imported iron made from Swedish and German ores (really very high quality) turned out to be cheaper.
      And the coal is not from the Donbass, by any chance?

      But the coal from Donbass, in its natural form (like any other coal), is not suitable for metallurgy. Too much sulfur there.
      After all, for the production of REAL steel, the open-hearth furnace technology is NECESSARY? With its temperature not less than 1540 degrees, isn't it? And only Donetsk anthracite can give such a temperature.

      Not necessary. Google what the beast is - crucible remelting. This technology in Asia (except Japan) has been used for at least 2,5 thousand years.
      Temperature is far from the most important thing, it is just not very difficult to get it, but refractories are a problem.
      And how you can do it “by eye,” “by chance,” and others, “and so it will come down” we know perfectly ...

      And what do you know?
      Where did Fernando have ALL maps of South America to accurately sail south to the Strait of Magellan.

      The map Magellan was sailing to the studio!
    2. Curious
      Curious 2 December 2017 15: 17
      +2
      2ez! Your knowledge of metallurgy is astounding by the depth of ignorance. It is even surprising today.
      1. Grid
        Grid 2 December 2017 15: 42
        0
        Well yours are not far gone.
        1. Curious
          Curious 2 December 2017 18: 14
          +2
          Does the tongue itch? Lick the anvil.
          1. Grid
            Grid 8 December 2017 19: 13
            0
            No. I just KNOW what you are.
            1. Curious
              Curious 8 December 2017 19: 15
              +1
              Something you with an answer was delayed. Have you really tried and grabbed the anvil in the cold?
              1. Grid
                Grid 9 December 2017 07: 23
                0
                Baby, I, unlike you, sometimes also work. Accordingly, I do not have time to hang on a rather stubborn resource. So call me ...
                1. Curious
                  Curious 9 December 2017 11: 33
                  0
                  That resource is memorable, that's for sure. There is no arguing. Degrades.
  26. groks
    groks 2 December 2017 11: 45
    +1
    Fantastic nonsense. The author does not even have the slightest idea about metalworking. Those who wish can take two pieces of iron and try using a gas burner, a hammer and a Japanese material to cook them in a bag. I bet it won’t work out. And white mantle will not help.
    Fierce nonsense about deflection during hardening. By this, the author tries to explain the shape of the swords. Yes, they will not have any form - the cracks will go along the cutting and fall apart without external effort. And that which cools faster is shorter than that which cools more slowly.
    But what a wonderful photo of the tip of the sword! Ancient sword. On the machine, however, they did. 146 percent. Fully CNC and CNC polished.
    1. Grid
      Grid 2 December 2017 15: 21
      +1
      The author does not even have the slightest idea about metalworking.

      This author has no idea about anything.
      But yong is "UCHOny", sometimes even, sort of like a "historian" ... And everyone who disagrees with him is simply ...
    2. Grid
      Grid 2 December 2017 15: 36
      +2
      The author does not even have the slightest idea about metalworking. Those who wish can take two pieces of iron and try using a gas burner, a hammer and a Japanese material to cook them in a bag. I bet it won’t work out. And white mantle won't help

      Without any Japanese mother, it is entirely possible to blacksmith a damask package. True, it will be very expensive both in time and in material. At least a third will go to scale.
      Fierce nonsense about deflection during hardening

      No nonsense. I just hardened more than a dozen blades, and really, they bend ... So that they do not bend, you have to dodge ...
      Yes, they will not have any form - the cracks will go along the cutting and fall apart without external effort. And that which cools faster is shorter than that which cools more slowly.

      Well, you are very mistaken ...
      Fully CNC and CNC polished.

      This is complete nonsense. Manually, you can ensure pairing a couple of qualities higher than when assembling from parts with CNC.
      1. groks
        groks 2 December 2017 17: 18
        0
        99% will go into the dross if heated and forged in the open air and cooked without flux.
        Bends during hardening towards faster cooling. Just by the laws of physics is already bending.
        If a meter billet during quenching bent a couple of centimeters, and the metal on the cutting cooled faster, then there should be cracks on the cutting, or there should be an accordion on the butt. But such conditions do not exist in real nature.
        The locksmith certainly appeared before everyone else. But I'm talking about the meaningless edges on the tip of the blade. They do not make sense and are very laborious for manual manufacturing and completely natural for machining.
        What does it mean when assembling from CNC parts?
        1. Grid
          Grid 8 December 2017 19: 09
          +1
          99% will go into the dross if heated and forged in the open air and cooked without flux.

          You are mistaken.
          Bends during hardening towards faster cooling. Just by the laws of physics is already bending.

          Yeah. Only physics is a little more complicated than your understanding. And the processes go far from what you think.
          What does it mean when assembling from CNC parts?

          That's when you realize this Tao, then maybe we'll talk ...
          1. groks
            groks 9 December 2017 12: 41
            0
            I’m not mistaken, because I tried it. And forge and weld, and even work on machines.
            But the laws of physics, they are really existing.
            So there is no need to bear it.
            1. Grid
              Grid 16 December 2017 16: 36
              +1
              Have you tried it?
              And I worked and work. And forged and welded. And he personally worked on machines and wrote programs ...
              For 25 years.
              1. groks
                groks 16 December 2017 19: 48
                0
                Well, congratulations. Now we take a bar from any metal, even from tin and only with a hammer (!) We try to form a semblance of a one-sided sword out of it - an understanding will come of why it will have such and only such a shape. Further. We are trying to weld several strips of steel without flux - we are amazed at the result.
                I tried, I tried. If I received the rank of locksmith at school at the CPC, this does not mean that I remained a locksmith. wink
                1. Grid
                  Grid 17 December 2017 08: 01
                  0
                  Well, congratulations.

                  Thank. :)
                  Now we take a bar from any metal, even from tin and only with a hammer (!) We try to form from it a semblance of a one-sided sword

                  And what's the problem? It is usually done like that. Here are just the final form is given already by grinding and in the cold state.
                  We are trying to weld several strips of steel without flux - we are amazed at the result.

                  And why without flux? Or is the borax unavailable to you?
                  If I received the rank of locksmith at school at the CPC, this does not mean that I remained a locksmith.

                  Well, this is bread.
                  It’s just that, personally, in addition to my diplomas, I have crusts of a 6th-level repairman, 5th-level mechanic assembly and a 6th-level mechanic ... That’s somehow ...
                  1. groks
                    groks 17 December 2017 09: 25
                    0
                    No problem. Just automatically get a bend.
                    If borax is available now, then where did the Japanese, the age-old, take it? And in thin layers and borax does not help much. When welding a package of metal rulers there will be a lot of defects.
                    I don’t do phallometry.
  27. Rotmistr
    Rotmistr 2 December 2017 16: 04
    16
    Thank you for the quality material. hi
  28. yarema vishneveckiy
    yarema vishneveckiy 8 December 2017 18: 24
    0
    Passage about Viking single-blade swords pleased ...)) Can I link to the source ??
    1. Curious
      Curious 8 December 2017 18: 48
      0

      Norwegian long sax.
      “About 330 swords of the second type were found in this country (most of which are single-blade, fig.). Apparently, the Norwegians preferred them double-edged. Other samples of this type were found in Sweden, but not one was found in Denmark. On the British Isles found in places where the Norwegians raided in the early period: on the Orkney and Hebrides (four samples are in the Scottish National Museum, Edinburgh) and in Ireland (fifteen or more in the National Museum in Dublin). In England, which was mostly attacked by the Danes, only one specimen was found, and it’s not accurate. The one-blade blade from the Thames (Mortlake) looks Norwegian, and it is possible that he had one of these handles. in use from about 775 to 900 g. "
      Evart Oakeshott
      Archeology of weapons. From the Bronze Age to the Renaissance
      Jan Petersen
      Norwegian Viking Swords.
  29. marline
    marline 15 December 2017 13: 33
    0
    Quote: Arkady Gaidar
    Since you refused to apologize for your rudeness in communication and behaved like a narcissistic peacock ...

    ABOUT!!!! How many pathos ... I communicate with you exactly at the level at which you communicate with me ... so there is no need to blame the mirror.
    Quote: Arkady Gaidar
    ... here's a randomly found video from manufacturers of Japanese katanas in Russia.

    Where?
    Quote: Arkady Gaidar
    Where the author confirms the perfect inflexibility of Japanese blades, with reference to manufacturing technology.

    How are these manufacturing technologies fundamentally different from European? I advise you to read the work of Alan Williams: Methods of making swords in the Middle Ages: metallographic analysis of some samples. And remember once and for all that a medieval European sword made using the technology of welding two steels with different carbon contents is easier to break than a katana made, suddenly using the same technology, because the latter is in most cases thicker. For the future, I wish you to better understand the issue and not grind nonsense.
    Quote: Arkady Gaidar
    You are right, Japanese and European swords are comparable when it comes to fighting without armor.

    They are simply comparable. The later European classical school of fencing with swords (meaning small sword) and saber without armor is superior to Japanese. Historical fact.
    Quote: Arkady Gaidar
    And the rest, I remind you of the saying: "Stubbornness is the prerogative of donkeys!"

    You should remember it yourself)))