Military Review

English Fighter

144



As is known, in the Anglo-American air force, which in the years of the Second World War made raids on Germany, there was a certain "division of labor". The Americans mainly worked in daylight and delivered targeted targeted strikes at strategic targets — plants, transportation hubs, airfields, etc. And the British flew at night, at a safer time, and burnt the cities with carpet bombing.

If the Germans fought quite successfully with the daytime raids (for example, during the bombardment of the bearing plant in Schweinfurt, the Americans lost the Flying Fortresses 36), then at night the British felt much calmer. Luftwaffe daytime fighters could not attack blindly, and improvised night interceptors made on the basis of two-engine Messerschmitt fighters Bf.110 and Junkers Ju.88 bombers were not very effective due to relatively low speed and insufficiently powerful weapons.

However, the situation began to change when specialized night hunters Heinkel He.219 Uhu ("Eagle owl") appeared in the sky above the Reich. The first flight of this machine took place exactly 75 years ago, at the end of November 1942.

"Owl" fully responded to its purpose and proved to be excellent in battles with the British bombers. In the first combat sortie of the 12 on July 1943 of the year, Major Shtreyb shot down five enemy aircraft! And for the following 10 nights, several experienced copies of the “Owl” shot down another 20 bombers, including six high-speed Mosquito, previously considered invulnerable.

This result was achieved by the Germans thanks to the high flight data of the Uhu, its extremely powerful weapons and rich technical equipment. Ne.219 on tests developed the speed of 615 km / h, the working ceiling of the machine reached 10300 meters, and the flight range was 2240 km. The plane had a sealed cabin and for the first time in world practice was equipped with ejection seats of both crew members.

The search for the enemy using the on-board radar FuG.212 "Lichtenstein", and besides him on the plane there was a radio altimeter, an automatic radio "friend-foe". radio compass and blind landing system. From the protective fire of the pilot's bombers, a thick frontal bulletproof glass and steel armor plate weighing in centners were securely covered.

Armament "Owl" was perhaps the most destructive of all the then fighters. It consisted of eight 20-millimeter guns with a large ammunition, six of which were directed forward, and two more - up to attack aircraft flying over an interceptor (the so-called “Shrage Music” system). In some instances, instead of two or four course 20-mm cannons, heavier 30-mm guns were installed. A volley of such a battery collapsed a four-engined bomber in seconds.

In addition, the "Owl" differed simplicity and ease of piloting. The Germans noted that the pilots transplanted to it from other types of fighters did not even need time to master and retrain. After one or two familiarization flights, they could be easily sent into battle.

After adopting He.219, the combat bills of the German night interceptors began to grow at an amazing pace. Some of them showed consistently fantastic results, for example, on the night of 3 in November of 1944, Chief Feldwebel Morlock, in 12 minutes, shot down six bombers alone. The best pilot of Uhu, Captain Manfred Meirer, destroyed the 65 of the British aircraft in a few months, and the captain Hans-Dieter Frank - 55. Moreover, all these victories were confirmed, as the battles took place over the central regions of Germany and the downed planes fell on German territory.

Uhu's own losses were insignificant and were mainly caused by airfield bombardments and disasters for technical reasons. The crews of the night interceptors also sometimes died due to the fact that their aircraft were hit by debris from the bombers they had shot down, and some pilots, carried away by shooting, were late in exiting the attack and inadvertently rammed their victim, dying with it.

Despite all their victories, Uhu could not change the situation in the skies over Germany and force the British to abandon the night bombing. They were too few for this. The Germans have not mastered a truly massive production of this expensive, complex and resource-intensive machines. In the 1943-44, the entire Filin 264 was built, of which, by the spring of the 1945, 45 combat-ready and several dozen faulty ones remained. And the British riveted "Lancaster" and "Halifax" much faster than the Germans had time to shoot them down. During the same years, more than ten thousand of these heavy bombers were commissioned, which made all attempts by German pilots and anti-aircraft gunners to defend their cities hopeless.





Not .219 in flight. Pay attention to the original color (one wing - black). This was done to facilitate the recognition of their cars by anti-aircraft gunners in the rays of searchlights.



Another computer drawing of He.219, on which, according to the current idiotic canons, the swastikas are replaced by gray diamonds.



Prototype "Filina" during the test. Radar antennas are not installed, but brackets for mounting are visible on the nose.



Layout diagram Ne.219. Under the fuselage there is a removable weapon bay with four cannons and sleeves for charging boxes located in the center section of the wing.



Disassembled "Owl" in the repair hangar. Right under the wing engines are visible on the carts.



Defective He.219, captured by the Americans at the airport at the end of the war.



And this "owl" got ours.
Author:
Originator:
https://vikond65.livejournal.com/688556.html
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  1. Jedi
    Jedi 26 November 2017 15: 11 New
    11
    Thank you for the interesting story about an interesting airplane. hi
    1. Proxima
      Proxima 26 November 2017 18: 24 New
      +7
      The Eagle Owl is a good example of the mediocre military-industrial policy of the Third Reich. They can come up with a decent aircraft, but how to effectively master it in production is where the Nazis always have problems.
      Their technologists did not think about why, in the production of La-5 and Yak-9, machine-hours of the machine park and electric energy were spent almost an order of magnitude less than in the production of FW-190 and Me-109?
      That is why Germany lost the war, because weapons must be effective not only in combat use, BUT AND IN PRODUCTION.
      And so. the leaders of the Third Reich were entertaining their brains stuffed with cocaine with all sorts of toys (as below in the picture), but the sense was probably zero ...
      1. Jedi
        Jedi 26 November 2017 18: 33 New
        +5
        I agree with your opinion, Sergey. hi Fortunately, there is enough information on this topic both on the Internet and on educational channels. And in the books of various authors "on both sides of the front," there are also plenty of such conclusions.
      2. NF68
        NF68 26 November 2017 18: 49 New
        +5
        Quote: Proxima
        The Eagle Owl is a good example of the mediocre military-industrial policy of the Third Reich. They can come up with a decent aircraft, but how to effectively master it in production is where the Nazis always have problems.


        2 of the main problems of German aviation during WWII was that the German industry was not able throughout the war to achieve significant production of the most modern and powerful aircraft engines and the matter was not limited to engines for Non-219. This problem of German aviation arose long before the start of WWII and the Germans could not get rid of this problem and with the beginning of WWII Germany urgently had to change their previously developed plans for the development of aircraft engine building trying to adapt to new conditions. Even the simplest versions of the Jumo-213 A and DB-603 A engines in Germany produced too little even in the early years of the war when the Allies and the USSR were in a very difficult situation after the losses. With Jumo-213 EB, DB-603 EC, DB-603 L with MW-50, DB-603 N and other altitude options based on DB-603, Jumo-222 A / B-3 and Jumo-222 E / F TTX Non-219 would be significantly higher. The Germans developed these new significantly more powerful aircraft engines in the 1942-beginning of the 1945 year, but could no longer produce these engines in large series. The second no less important problem for German aviation was the lack of aviation fuel produced throughout the entire German-occupied Europe. The resources at the disposal of Germany for waging war on the 2 front were too few initially. The lack of resources for waging war against the leading countries of the world that could well unite against Germany in Germany was well known, but the corporal did not consider it necessary to take these problems into account.
        1. Proxima
          Proxima 26 November 2017 19: 22 New
          +6
          Quote: NF68
          The lack of resources for waging war against the leading countries of the world that could well unite against Germany in Germany was well known, but the corporal did not consider it necessary to take these problems into account.

          I dare to remind you that the "corporal" had at his disposal practically the entire military-industrial complex of continental Europe! (Austria, France, Czechoslovakia, Belgium, Holland ..) And, after 1942, the resources of a significant part of the territory of the European USSR.
          And how did the corporal use these resources?
          Something like this belay Here is one of his many hallucinogenic Wishlist.
          Is a "good" gun - isn't it !?
          True, to service this fool, "just" 5 people will be required, but this is nonsense, most importantly, more sniffing "coke" - it still does not seem to be ...
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 26 November 2017 19: 44 New
            +2
            Quote: Proxima
            Quote: NF68
            The lack of resources for waging war against the leading countries of the world that could well unite against Germany in Germany was well known, but the corporal did not consider it necessary to take these problems into account.

            I dare to remind you that the "corporal" had at his disposal practically the entire military-industrial complex of continental Europe! (Austria, France, Czechoslovakia, Belgium, Holland ..) And, after 1942, the resources of a significant part of the territory of the European USSR.
            And how did the corporal use these resources?
            Something like this belay Here is one of his many hallucinogenic Wishlist.
            Is a "good" gun - isn't it !?
            True, to service this fool, "just" 5 people will be required, but this is nonsense, most importantly, more sniffing "coke" - it still does not seem to be ...

            Shiklgruber sat on acid, which the attending physician prescribed to him. Hallucinogens. The rest were more concerned about career growth - just those who are on the first.
          2. Narak-zempo
            Narak-zempo 27 November 2017 11: 33 New
            0
            Quote: Proxima
            I dare to remind you that the "corporal" had at his disposal practically the entire military-industrial complex of continental Europe!


            And is there a lot of oil, bauxite, tungsten and all other raw materials in that Europe? And the industry was not first-rate - each captured country had its own technological features, and the workers were not particularly motivated to do hard work (remember the Polish slogan "Work slowly!"). How many Messerschmitts and Focke-Wulfs are built at aircraft plants in occupied France, can you tell? And all this is against the American system of mass production (which, in fact, we had, because industrialization was carried out according to American standards).
            1. NF68
              NF68 29 November 2017 17: 50 New
              +3
              And is there a lot of oil, bauxite, tungsten and all other raw materials in that Europe?


              For the entire 1943 year 8,8 cm, tiger crews used only 5570 subcaliber armor-piercing shells made of tungsten carbide for their KWK-36 L / 56, and at the end of the 1943 year 1600 such shells even had to be removed and sent for smelting and manufacturing of cutting tools for metalworking machines. The Germans also received chrome from Turkey, but it was still not enough. In 1943, the Germans smelted 43% of all steel this year from Swedish iron ore.
              1. Narak-zempo
                Narak-zempo 2 December 2017 09: 33 New
                0
                Quote: NF68
                For the whole of 1943, 8,8 cm tiger crews used only 5570 sub-caliber armor-piercing shells made of tungsten carbide

                And why does the “Tiger” in 1943 have a caliber projectile? Against who?
                1. NF68
                  NF68 3 December 2017 20: 22 New
                  +2
                  And why does the “Tiger” in 1943 have a caliber projectile? Against who?


                  So the war by that time had already been going on for several years, and one could have expected the appearance in the same Red Army of something more serious than the IS-1 and self-propelled guns based on it. In addition, sub-caliber shells made it more likely to penetrate the frontal reservation of these heavy tanks and self-propelled guns. The Panther’s cannon was not much more powerful in terms of breaking through the armor than the Tiger’s cannon, but the Germans also produced sub-caliber shells for the Panther’s cannons.
          3. NF68
            NF68 27 November 2017 15: 56 New
            +2
            I dare to remind you that the "corporal" had at his disposal practically the entire military-industrial complex of continental Europe! (Austria, France, Czechoslovakia, Belgium, Holland ..) And, after 1942, the resources of a significant part of the territory of the European USSR.
            And how did the corporal use these resources?


            In order for the whole of the military-industrial complex to work with full dedication, it was necessary to have the appropriate amount of necessary raw materials, and with this the Germans, despite the fact that they captured vast territories, things were bad:
            see the tables to the bottom of this material: http://alternathistory.com/node/11683/190165

            Or how the Germans were refining aircraft engines:

            The lack of many materials took place immediately after the outbreak of war. During the war, the situation with the supply of alloying materials became increasingly complicated, and their consumption for industrial needs per turnover grew rapidly. Then attempts began to replace the scarce alloying additives with materials that were available in the country. In January of the 1941 of the year, the first results were obtained: in total, 687 of engine parts began to be manufactured from materials that were mined in Germany or in countries occupied by Germany. 280 of them began to be made without preliminary lengthy verification. 460 parts previously manufactured from steel containing molybdenum began to be produced without molybdenum additives. In other 227 parts, 80 kg of copper, 20 kg of nickel, 3 kg of zinc, 0,5 kg of cadmium were saved. All this taken together led to the fact that the engine life of BMW-801 engines but at the beginning on average was only 20-25 hours, which significantly limited the combat effectiveness of the aircraft on which these engines were installed. To ensure obtaining ever higher powers, work on improving the engine was carried out simultaneously in the 2 directions: increasing power at low altitudes while maintaining a power reserve at medium heights and developing high-altitude engines.

            And this situation has already occurred since the beginning of WWII.
          4. DimerVladimer
            DimerVladimer 29 November 2017 13: 08 New
            +2
            Quote: Proxima
            Quote: NF68
            The lack of resources for waging war against the leading countries of the world that could well unite against Germany in Germany was well known, but the corporal did not consider it necessary to take these problems into account.

            I dare to remind you that the "corporal" had at his disposal practically the entire military-industrial complex of continental Europe! (Austria, France, Czechoslovakia, Belgium, Holland ..) And, after 1942, the resources of a significant part of the territory of the European USSR.
            And how did the corporal use these resources?
            Something like this belay Here is one of his many hallucinogenic Wishlist.
            Is a "good" gun - isn't it !?
            True, to service this fool, "just" 5 people will be required, but this is nonsense, most importantly, more sniffing "coke" - it still does not seem to be ...


            Ours captured this gun and transported it to the USSR for a long time lying at the Barricades factory.
            They tried to adapt to test large-caliber bombs.
            Here is the post-war fate of Dora’s weapon:
            http://militaryarticle.ru/tekhnika-i-vooruzhenie/
            2009/11748-samyj-krupnyj-artillerijskij-kalibr-v-
            sssr

            April 4, plant director S.N. Atroshchenko wrote to the chairman of the Stalingrad CHX a petition of the following content: “... In 1953, the plant turned to the former Minister of Defense Industry comrade. Ustinov D.F. with a request to write off a 600-mm gun weighing 450-500 tons. in the charge. We were denied the request and offered to store the system until further notice.
            Currently, the system is located at the plant’s test site, rusts and takes up a lot of the right place.
            Due to the acute shortage of carbon scrap at the plant, I ask you to resolve the issue of using the specified system for remelting ”26.
            The scribble started. Wherever the Sovnarkhozists E.V. Rossius and A.S. Zhikharev, the mere mention of Ustinov’s surname dictated the answer: “... Address personally to Comrade. Ustinov D.F. ”, although he had long held a different position. And I had to turn! The Deputy Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the USSR instructs the Ministry of Defense and the State Committee for Defense Technology to examine the feasibility of storing the captured Dora.
            Understood! July 27, 1959, Deputy Minister of Defense Marshal of the Soviet Union A.A. Grechko and the Deputy Chairman of the State Committee for the Commerce and Industry of the USSR S. S. Zverev reported that “they consider it possible to write off and put this system into scrap, since it does not represent any value” 27. Resolution D.F. Ustinova: “... Accept the proposal of the USSR Ministry of Defense and the State Committee for the State Customs on the decommissioning of the captured German railway system as scrap metal. Railroad use platforms for the needs of the local Council of National Economy ”28.
            Disposal was carried out in 1960. The artillery unit was cut and re-melted in the open-hearth furnace of workshop No. 11, charges and shells were blown up in Prudboy. As for the four railway platforms, their fate was decided by the deputy head of the MTS and sales of the SNH of Volgograd (1957-1963) I.G. Vorobiev. How he disposed of the trophy is not known. But one find in Prudboy is known, to which the Central Design Bureau “Titan” was related.


            And so the artillery artworks, incredible in their complexity and useless, disappear ...
      3. komvap
        komvap 26 November 2017 20: 45 New
        +2
        Quote: Proxima

        And so. the leaders of the Third Reich entertained their brains stuffed with cocaine with all sorts of toys ... but the sense was probably zero ...
        .
        Not cocaine, but methamphetamine.
        The rest is no objection
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 26 November 2017 22: 13 New
          0
          Quote: komvap
          Quote: Proxima

          And so. the leaders of the Third Reich entertained their brains stuffed with cocaine with all sorts of toys ... but the sense was probably zero ...
          .
          Not cocaine, but methamphetamine.
          The rest is no objection

          Hitler was on both the hair dryer and acid (Dr. Hoffman).
          Speer on the first.
      4. opus
        opus 27 November 2017 00: 54 New
        +7
        Quote: Proxima
        and to sense - probably zero ..

        + 1933 - creation of an electron microscope (authors: Knoll, v.-Borries, Ruska und Bruche), quartz watches (Scheibe und Adelsberger), development of a diesel-electric motor
        + 1934 - the beginning of the industrial production of artificial fiber (Rein), a trial implementation of public television (Berlin), the construction of a giant ship lift.
        + 1935 - introduction to the medical therapeutic practice of sulfamides.
        + 1936 - the invention of the nerve agent Tabun, the beginning of the production of synthetic rubber (Buna concern), the development of iron ore dressing technology, the development of color photographic technology, experiments with the development of color sound film (Fischer), a telecast on the phone (Leipzig-Berlin) , the establishment of a research and test rocket center in Peenemünde.
        + 1937 - the invention of artificial fiber perlon (Schlack), the beginning of the excavation at Olympia.
        + 1938 - a large exposition of television equipment (Berlin), Professor Otto Hahn, using chemical techniques, reveals the phenomenon of the decay of the atomic nucleus.
        + 17 December 1938, Otto Gan and his assistant Fritz Strassmann discovered and proved the division of the uranium nucleus in Berlin, which became the scientific and technical basis for the use of nuclear energy.
        + 1939 - the invention of the martial nerve agent sarin (Schrader, Ritter, Linde und Ambros), the invention of the insecticide DDT (Schrader and P.G. Muller), the development of technology for the manufacture of artificial fats (Reppe), the beginning of work on the use of nuclear energy, start of work on radar technology, the first flights of aircraft with jet engines He 176 and He178 (24 Aug.)
        + 1940 - creation of silicon-organic materials (R. Müller).
        Manfred von Ardenne created an electron microscope with magnification 500 000 times.
        IGFarbenindustrie AG sold a patent for the production of artificial rubber from petroleum products (Buna N and Buna S patents) to American concern Standard Oil, which enabled the United States to produce artificial rubber in a short time and to meet its needs in the future, when Japan seized rubber plantations in Asia
        + shaped charges for the destruction of the Belgian fort Eben-Emael
        + combat use of the world's first jet aircraft and missile "weapons of retaliation" (FA-1, V-2)
        + anti-tank guided missiles (X-7 “Rotkäppchen” anti-tank rocket, Rumpelstilzchen, Rochen-1000 / 2000, Flunder)
        + ZR (a prototype of missiles) air-to-air class (Ruhrstahl X-4) and anti-aircraft missiles (Wasserfal).
        + the world's first specialized military transport aircraft (Messerschmitt Me.323 Gigant).
        + aircraft propeller screw.
        + ejection seats - He-219 was the first combat aircraft in the world (1942), equipped with them.
        + magnetic mines, bubble-free electro torpedoes, acoustic torpedoes that are not tradable
        + “Wissenschaft ohne Menschlichkeit” and “Diktat der Menschenverachtung” are hard and disgusting, but based on 70,% of the success of post-war medicine is based on these
        + trials in Thuringia and on the island of Rugen "dirty bomb"
        + Development of magnetic sound recording, including stereo, the first broadcast television.
        yes the same Volkswagen
        Quote: Proxima
        That's why Germany lost the war,

        try to win
        Green marked countries of the anti-Hitler coalition (light green - joined after the attack on Pearl Harbor)


        Shl.
        UK- the world's largest empire (460 million heads)
        USA

        GDP of aXI countries on 25% LESS US GDP only
      5. verner1967
        verner1967 27 November 2017 07: 33 New
        +2
        Quote: Proxima
        They can come up with a decent aircraft, but how to effectively master it in production is where the Nazis always have problems.
        Their technologists did not think why, in the production of La-5 and Yak-9

        If this “Eagle Owl” was built using La-5 or Yak-9 technologies, then it would not be such an outstanding machine.
        1. CentDo
          CentDo 27 November 2017 10: 43 New
          +4
          From La-5 grew La-7, with which the Germans generally tried not to enter the battle (as with the Yak-3). And it was built on the same technologies. La-7 you do not consider an outstanding machine?
          1. verner1967
            verner1967 27 November 2017 18: 58 New
            0
            Quote: CentDo
            La-7 you do not consider an outstanding machine?

            like a night fighter - no
          2. verner1967
            verner1967 27 November 2017 20: 04 New
            +3
            Quote: CentDo
            From La-5 grew La-7,
            and they grew them La-9 and, finally, La-11 from which I wanted to get a long-range escort fighter like the Americans "Thunderbolt" or "Mustang", but it didn’t work out very well, and the Amers did it in the 43rd , and we have "not so" far after the war.
            Quote: CentDo
            with which the Germans generally tried not to enter the battle (as with the Yak-3).
            they did not enter the battle only because of the lack of good pilots, it was 44 years in the yard, the second half, and the best pilots of the Red Army Air Force flew on these aircraft. No, La-5 (La-7) or Yak-3 planes are undoubtedly outstanding devices for our industry, this is the maximum that our designers managed to squeeze out, perhaps, the most beautiful planes of the Second World from engines and gliders of the time. But when you start comparing their performance characteristics with Tempest or Ta-152, it’s difficult to name them outstanding, unfortunately.
            1. CentDo
              CentDo 28 November 2017 10: 35 New
              +3
              Dear, comparing the performance characteristics of La-7 and Ta-152, this is the same as comparing the performance characteristics of the OTRK and ICBMs. What's better? La-7, like the Yak-3, was created for combat at medium and low altitudes, and to compare it with a high-altitude car is just a game. At the heights for which our machines were created, they had no competitors.
              According to Tempest, it’s also not very clear: the La-7 is not inferior to it in speed at low altitudes, and in terms of rate of climb, maneuverability is better. At the height of yes, Tempest is faster, but that's all.
              Regarding the perfection of the British and American fighters, one can recall Kozhedub's story about how he landed on his sevens two mustangs that mistook him for a fokker. I do not presume to judge whether this is true or fiction, but I also find no reason to lie for the Three times Hero of the Soviet Union.
              1. NF68
                NF68 28 November 2017 16: 54 New
                +3
                Dear, comparing the performance characteristics of La-7 and Ta-152, this is the same as comparing the performance characteristics of the OTRK and ICBMs. What's better? La-7, like the Yak-3, was created for combat at medium and low altitudes, and to compare it with a high-altitude car is just a game.


                Mid-weight variants of Ta-152 A / B were also developed.


                At the heights for which our machines were created, they had no competitors.


                Serial FW-190 D-9 with MW-50 at a minimum height reached speeds of up to 612 km / h. The maximum rate of climb on the afterburner at an altitude of 4,8 kmё was equal to 18,5 m / s. At the same time, the Jumo-213 A-1 engine with MW-50 could work on afterburner without interruption for 10 minutes. Me-109 K-4 at a minimum height on the afterburner developed a speed of 605 km / h. The rate of climb on the afterburner 24,5 m / s. Me-109 G-14 with MW-50 was not much inferior to Me-109 K-4. The only serious drawback of these German fighters was the Germans did not produce enough. It’s good that the Germans didn’t manage to launch the Fw-190 D-9 engine with a Jumo-213 S engine / altitude 4500 meters / that developed on take-off with MW-50 2400 hp in production on time specially designed for the Eastern Front.

                The second V6 prototype (W.Nr.110 006, VH + EY) made its first flight on December 12 1944. The EC DB engine was installed on the prototype. On the V603, a wing with an area of ​​6 m19,5, a MW 2 system, heating panels for the side windows of the lantern, an ETC fuselage bomb holder and wooden flaps were installed. The take-off weight of the aircraft reached 50 kg. Small arms consisted of two MG 4370 in the fuselage and two MG 151 in the root of the wing. During the tests, Ta 151V152 showed high maximum speeds: in combat mode (6 rpm) - 2500 km / h at sea level and 547 km / h at maximum altitude, in emergency mode (647 rpm) - 2700 km / h at sea level and 617 km / h at maximum altitude.
                1. CentDo
                  CentDo 28 November 2017 17: 19 New
                  +2
                  AND? La-7 at low altitude developed to 613 km / h using a 10-minute boost. Rate of climb 18,5 m / s. At the same time, the turn time is only 19 seconds, which the Germans could only dream of.
                  1. verner1967
                    verner1967 28 November 2017 19: 41 New
                    +1
                    Quote: CentDo
                    At the same time, the turn time is only 19 seconds, which the Germans could only dream of.

                    at what speed? The fact is that, for example, the Me-109F at a speed of about 600 km / h was not controlled at all, and the FW-190A was able to make evolution at the speed of St. 650 km / h, and did not significantly lose its flight qualities over the entire speed range. La-7 had limitations in both height and speed.
                    1. CentDo
                      CentDo 29 November 2017 11: 31 New
                      +1
                      As far as I remember, maneuver combat usually took place at speeds of 350-450 km / h. And the FW-190A was generally a very controversial fighter. In the West, at high altitudes, he caused a lot of problems to the Allies, but on the contrary, we were considered an easier opponent than Bf-109.
                      In general, the main German fighters of the end of the war can be called good generalists, but like any generalists they lost to more highly specialized machines. They could fight with the Allied fighters at a high altitude and ours at a low, but they both conceded there and there.
                      1. NF68
                        NF68 29 November 2017 17: 04 New
                        +4
                        As far as I remember, maneuver combat usually took place at speeds of 350-450 km / h. And the FW-190A was generally a very controversial fighter. In the West, at high altitudes, he caused a lot of problems to the Allies, but on the contrary, we were considered an easier opponent than Bf-109.


                        Once again, remember that the Germans already in Spain appreciated all the advantages of attacking enemy aircraft from above when the attacker took the initiative. From the beginning of WWII, the Germans improved this tactic. In addition, the Americans came fighting with the Japanese, who also considered horizontal maneuverability to be important. And in the Red Army with time, they also came with the same conclusions and tried to rise above the enemy before the attack.

                        .
                        In general, the main German fighters of the end of the war can be called good generalists, but like any generalists they lost to more highly specialized machines. They could fight with the Allied fighters at a high altitude and ours at a low, but they both conceded there and there.
                        .

                        And you once again compare the performance characteristics of the latest Yaa-9 and Yak-3 with their counterparts FW-190 D-9, Me-109 G-14 with MW-50, Me-109 K-4.
                        A TTX serial FW-190 D-11, Ta-152 and C Ta-152 H with serial at the same time, American and English fighters and the conviction that those German planes which I mentioned above in all basic parameters will slightly outperform their opponents by losing to them in the number of aircraft and also in the fact that by this time the Germans had few experienced pilots left.
                      2. verner1967
                        verner1967 29 November 2017 21: 34 New
                        0
                        Quote: CentDo
                        As far as I remember, maneuver combat usually took place at speeds of 350-450 km / h.

                        this is if we consider the "dog dump" from which they already left at the beginning of the second world
                        Quote: CentDo
                        we, on the contrary, were considered a lighter opponent than the Bf-109.

                        if this is the first to attack, the one whom PV attacked first did not count anything ...
                        Quote: CentDo
                        In general, the main German fighters of the end of the war can be called good generalists, but like any generalists they lost to more highly specialized machines.

                        Well, yes, given that this narrow specialization was a necessary measure and led to the fact that only in the 44th Air Force of the Red Army captured air supremacy. Tires would not understand you, "height-speed-maneuver-fire" is his famous formula, in the first place - height, and then he flew on the "cobra" by our very "high-altitude" fighter
                  2. NF68
                    NF68 29 November 2017 16: 43 New
                    +4
                    Quote: CentDo
                    AND? La-7 at low altitude developed to 613 km / h using the 10-minute boost. Rate of climb 18,5 m / s. At the same time, the turn time is only 19 seconds, which the Germans could only dream of


                    The Germans didn’t really need turns for 19 seconds because the fighter on the turn significantly reduced the flight speed, and during this time the turn fighter could fall under the fire of the enemy fighter pursuing him .. The afterburner of the ASh-82 FN engine was due to an insufficiently efficient supercharger only possible at altitudes up to 2 km. At this time, all medium-high German fighters with the MW-50 system could use this system at altitudes up to 5 km., And Me-109 with DB-605 AS and DB-605 D engines could use the afterburner at altitudes up to 6 km. Even the high-altitude version of the FW-190 D-11 with the Jumo-213 F-1 with a power of only 2060 hp. On the afterburner afterburner at a minimum height it developed a speed of 608 km / h, and on the afterburner at an altitude of 5 km. Developed a speed of 700 km / h. On more than 5 km. heights its speed was even higher. It’s good that the Germans did not have time to start production of Jumo-213 EB engines with power on afterburner 2250 hp. for Fw 190 D-13.
                    Before the plane made a turn, it had to make a turn about the longitudinal axis and almost all fighters of the USSR, the USA and Britain could dream of such a roll speed as the FW-190. The FW-190 V1 had a roll speed of 162 degrees per second. For production aircraft, the roll speed was slightly lower, but still significantly higher than their counterparts. In addition, the same FW-190 A-8 with additional weapons and armor was used on the Eastern Front as the FW-190 A-9 with the BMW-801 S MW-50 from 1945, which had already developed 2200 hp on takeoff. and this option, even with additional weapons and armor, was not inferior in speed to either La-7 or Yak-3.
                    1. CentDo
                      CentDo 29 November 2017 17: 40 New
                      +1
                      You are so enthusiastically citing engine power as evidence, apparently forgetting that it does not say in general about nothing, if not given data on the mass of the aircraft itself. And that maximum speed in battle is needed much less than good dynamics. Divide the power of the installed engine by the take-off mass of the aircraft and see what happens. In La-7, this figure will be equal to 0,56-0,57. For your beloved Germans, count yourself. I can say right away that it will be much worse, even they will not reach 0,5.
                      1. NF68
                        NF68 30 November 2017 23: 51 New
                        +2
                        Quote: CentDo
                        You are so enthusiastically citing engine power as evidence, apparently forgetting that it does not say in general about nothing, if not given data on the mass of the aircraft itself. And that maximum speed in battle is needed much less than good dynamics. Divide the power of the installed engine by the take-off mass of the aircraft and see what happens. At La-7, this figure will be equal to 0,56-0,57. For your beloved Germans, count yourself. .






                        For not the most powerful variants of the widespread German aircraft engine BMW-801 D2 and BMW-801 E, this figure is equal to 0, 508, BMW-801 S developing power 2200 hp-046, which was produced in a small series of BMW-801 F-2400 hp. -0423. American Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp
                        this figure with an engine weight of 1017 kg. at power on takeoff in 2450 hp. was equal to 0,43, with a power of 2800 hp. the most powerful variants developed during WWII had equal-0,38. Even the Germans, using not the best materials, managed to bring the power of the BMW-801 F to 2580 hp at the end of WWII. And the Soviet post-war La-9 and La-11 flew with the ASH-82 fn from which there are more than 1850 hp in the series. never squeezed.
                        About the data I have provided, this is only for those who understand nothing really about this matter, and those who understand it will pay attention to the fact that throughout the WWII in the field of aviation the war went on not only in the air, but also in the aviation design and engineering bureaus where they developed aircraft engines.

                        I can say right away that it will be much worse, even they will not reach 0,5.


                        To say or write a lot that is possible, it would not be bad for a start to know what is at stake. Check out first what and how it was, and only then you can say:
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_R
                        -2800_Double_Wasp

                        http://alternathistory.com/aviatsionnye-dvigateli
                        -firm-siemensbramo-bmw-po-materialam-karla-preste
                        lya?form_build_id=form-a9d6978c749b6b21e820c7bc71
                        9edc78 & form_id = comment_controls & mode = 3 & am
                        p;order=1&comments_per_page=70&op=%25D0%2
                        5A1%25D0%25BE%25D1%2585%25D1%2580%25D0%25B0%25D0%
                        25BD%25D0%25B8%25D1%2582%25D1%258C+%25D0%25BD%25D
                        0%25B0%25D1%2581%25D1%2582%25D1%2580%25D0%25BE%25
                        D0%25B9%25D0%25BA%25D0%25B8

                        Even the Japanese with a working volume of 35,8 liters and an engine weight of 810 kg. got 1825 hp. and 1990 hp. him during WWII:
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_Homare
                2. CentDo
                  CentDo 28 November 2017 17: 54 New
                  +1
                  Well, do not forget that it was allowed to turn on the MW-50 for no more than 5 minutes, and the ASH-82FN could operate in take-off mode (afterburner mode) for an unlimited time.
                  The second part of your comment is generally unclear why. In combat mode, V6 is frankly wretched, and in emergency it could fly only a few minutes.
                  1. verner1967
                    verner1967 28 November 2017 19: 43 New
                    0
                    Quote: CentDo
                    ASH-82FN could work on take-off mode (afterburner mode) for unlimited time.

                    Quote: CentDo
                    La-7 at low altitude developed to 613 km / h using a 10-minute boost.

                    so 10 min fast and furious or unlimited time?
                    1. CentDo
                      CentDo 29 November 2017 11: 19 New
                      +2
                      10 minutes were required to achieve maximum speed, the engine could work on take-off mode for an unlimited time. There simply was no increase in speed.
                      1. verner1967
                        verner1967 29 November 2017 21: 39 New
                        +1
                        Quote: CentDo
                        10 minutes were required to reach maximum speed

                        cool!! A lot can happen in 10 minutes. According to the memoirs of our pilots (I read it from Drabkin), La gradually caught up with the Messer, but after 5-10 minutes it started to lag behind, the candles were handed over, they could not withstand the temperature load. This of course does not talk about the engine's TX, but it does talk about quality.
                  2. NF68
                    NF68 29 November 2017 16: 52 New
                    +2
                    ]
                    Well, do not forget that it was allowed to not include MW-50 in battle for more than 5 minutes,


                    If anything went wrong, then the MW-50 system could be continuously used not with 5, but with 10 minutes and this was enough for 2-3 attacks. Then a switch followed this system for at least 5 minutes, after which it could again be used for 10 minutes.


                    and ASH-82FN could work on take-off mode (afterburner mode) for unlimited time


                    Actually, you wrote above that ASH-82 FN on afterburner could work only 10 minutes:
                    CentDo Yesterday, 17: 19 ↑
                    [bI? La-7 at low altitude developed to 613 km / h using the 10-minute boost. [/ bSpeed ​​18,5 m / s.

                    And this 10-minute afterburner is mentioned in many documents, and unlimited time on the afterburner AF-82 FN could work exclusively in the minds of those who do not understand that when working in this mode, the engine will overheat very quickly and fail.
                    1. CentDo
                      CentDo 29 November 2017 17: 45 New
                      +2
                      For that matter, for 10 minutes the MW could be turned on only in normal mode, in battle only for 5.
                      You first read how ASh-82F differed from ASH-82, and then build a great expert from yourself.
                      1. NF68
                        NF68 30 November 2017 23: 54 New
                        +3
                        You first read how ASh-82F differed from ASH-82, and then build a great expert from yourself.


                        For that matter, I already looked at so many materials very carefully and translated them myself on WWII piston aircraft engines, and not on aircraft engines too, which you have not heard about properly, that you should not say such a thing to me.
                3. fighter angel
                  fighter angel 28 November 2017 23: 28 New
                  0
                  For stubborn "revenge-seekers" - study the materiel. Again and carefully! Thoughtfully, Carl! Read the above comparison of La Xnumx and Dora. There you were taken to clean water.
                  1. NF68
                    NF68 3 December 2017 20: 29 New
                    +1
                    Quote: fighter angel
                    For stubborn "revenge-seekers" - study the materiel. Again and carefully! Thoughtfully, Carl! Read the above comparison of La Xnumx and Dora. There you were taken to clean water.


                    Stubborn amateurs to argue from high stands would also not hurt to study the materiel first, and only then climb up the stand that came along the way and make speeches.
              2. verner1967
                verner1967 28 November 2017 19: 32 New
                +2
                Quote: CentDo
                we can recall the story of Kozhedub, how he landed on his sevens two mustangs, which took

                here the role is played not by the quality of the aircraft, but by the skill of the pilot. Our pilots were also shot down on La-5 and Yak-7 by Finns, Romanians, Italians in their outdated vehicles, and how many examples when we shot down Germans on the “Seagulls and donkeys” on the Me-109E ... a stupid comparison.
                Quote: CentDo
                La-7, like the Yak-3, was created for combat at medium and low altitudes

                this is a necessary measure, there would be an opportunity, they would create better planes (the attempt was a MiG-3) but alas, the lack of a good engine crossed out everything.
                Quote: CentDo
                in speed at low altitudes the La-7 is not inferior to it, in rate of climb, too, maneuverability is better. At the height of yes, Tempest is faster, but that's all.
                For modern combat (and not for the "dog dump"), Tempest was much better than La-7. And if you go back to the beginning of this discussion, then it’s estimated not only the performance characteristics of the aircraft in terms of speed, rate of climb and maneuverability, but also in the equipment and equipment of the PNO, in this the Germans were far ahead of everyone, and even further, unfortunately, again.
                1. CentDo
                  CentDo 29 November 2017 11: 53 New
                  +1
                  Creating machines for small and medium heights was not a necessary measure, but a rational approach. Why the hell to create a high-altitude machine that will not be in demand? Well, the front did not need high-altitude cars. They were required only in air defense regiments, and even then in a small amount that Spitfires successfully blocked.
                  What do you mean by "modern combat"? And how did Tempest outperform our fighters in battle? If possible, then by points and with numbers. You can’t write about equipment, here I agree with you, but the equipment was not a decisive factor in the battle.
                  1. verner1967
                    verner1967 29 November 2017 21: 56 New
                    +1
                    Quote: CentDo
                    Why the hell to create a high-altitude car,

                    where did you get about the high-altitude car? We are talking about an aircraft capable of fighting without significant loss of performance characteristics at altitudes up to 7-8 km. which our fighters could not.
                    Quote: CentDo
                    which successfully blocked Spitfire.

                    By the way, the Spits could successfully fight over the entire range of heights
                    Quote: CentDo
                    What do you mean by "modern combat"?

                    and you read Pokryshkin, his tactics of air combat, if you have few examples from the chances.
                    Quote: CentDo
                    And how did Tempest outperform our fighters in battle? If possible, then by points and with numbers.

                    it’s easy to fight on papers with numbers, but they’re not fighting in numbers. Tempest could dive from a great height, smash a bomb and trash up at almost the same speed, and all this within a few seconds (which the Germans did throughout the war)
                    1. NF68
                      NF68 30 November 2017 23: 56 New
                      +2
                      By the way, the Spits could successfully fight over the entire range of heights


                      Here, perhaps, the most consistent with these requirements MK.14. Other sleeps with Merlin at low altitudes were worse than La-7 and Yak-3.
                      1. verner1967
                        verner1967 1 December 2017 18: 43 New
                        0
                        Quote: NF68
                        Other sleeps with Merlin at low altitudes were worse than La-7 and Yak-3.

                        well, others were asleep and also released earlier, but we compare fighters of the same time, right?
          3. DimerVladimer
            DimerVladimer 29 November 2017 13: 37 New
            +2
            Quote: CentDo
            From La-5 grew La-7, with which the Germans generally tried not to enter the battle (as with the Yak-3). And it was built on the same technologies. La-7 you do not consider an outstanding machine?


            Do you know why the outstanding La-7 was not used after the war?
            The fuselages of the wood delta rotted - strength was falling - so they were decommissioned after the war. Aircraft made during the war years were sometimes not saturated with antiseptic solutions. As a result, mold and rot gradually destroyed wooden wings and fuselages. This occurred most severely in areas with a humid climate. The case is well known when an entire regiment of La Seventh, which was transferred to the Far East in the fall of 1945, was soon decommissioned without having made a single flight.
            With equal strength, duralumin construction is 40% lighter than wood, not to mention durability, non-flammability and resistance to weathering.
            Launched the production of all-metal La-9 / La-11 with higher performance characteristics and operational characteristics.
            1. fighter angel
              fighter angel 29 November 2017 14: 11 New
              +1
              The Angles had a completely similar situation with the Mosquito and Hornets DH-103 in the Far East. They also rotted, moldy, and moreover very quickly.
        2. fighter angel
          fighter angel 28 November 2017 13: 44 New
          +3
          You are wrong at the root. La-5 and Yak-9 are front-line fighters. Moreover, the best in its class, at altitudes of up to 3-4 km., Especially in the modifications - La-5FN and Yak-9U, Yak-9M and Yak-9P. And your ardently beloved Wuhu is a high-altitude night interceptor. Comparing them is not that incorrect, but simply illiterate.
          1. verner1967
            verner1967 28 November 2017 19: 52 New
            0
            Quote: fighter angel
            Comparing them is not that incorrect, but simply illiterate.

            illiterate to snatch sentences out of context and draw their "smart" conclusions. It was a question of production technologies, and since the USSR did not have the production technology of night fighters, but used for this purpose what was (La and Yak), we had to compare them production technologynot TTX fool .
            Quote: fighter angel
            your favorite "Wuhu"

            It’s not at all my favorite, but I like the I-16 and La-5 (7,9) most of all because the first book about military pilots was Kozhedub’s memoirs. In second place are the MiG-3 and AeroCobra, also thanks to books about Z. Sorokin and Golubev about Pokryshkin.
            1. fighter angel
              fighter angel 29 November 2017 09: 42 New
              +1
              I am sincerely happy for you to read such books! Still there is “MiG vs. Sabers” by Evgeny Georgievich Pepelyaev, “Know Yourself in a Battle” by Alexander Ivanovich Pokryshkin ... Have you read it by chance?
              1. verner1967
                verner1967 29 November 2017 21: 58 New
                0
                Quote: fighter angel
                Did not read by accident?

                accidentally read and not only these. Why are you doing this?
                1. fighter angel
                  fighter angel 30 November 2017 10: 47 New
                  0
                  Yes, by the way ... You were the first to remember the books you read, I supported you ...
      6. rubin6286
        rubin6286 28 November 2017 00: 52 New
        +3
        No matter how stupid it may come to a person’s head, he will always find like-minded people. And as it did not occur to German designers to adopt the Soviet experience in the manufacture of wooden aircraft and even engines. They can be made more and even the technology can be worked out, and the brain clouded with cocaine should be washed with Russian vodka.
        1. CentDo
          CentDo 28 November 2017 10: 37 New
          +1
          Yes, actually it came. If you are not in the know, then starting with the Bf 109 G6 the gliders of German fighters almost consisted of wood.
          1. verner1967
            verner1967 28 November 2017 19: 54 New
            0
            Quote: CentDo
            gliders of German fighters almost half consisted of wood.

            do not dissemble, this is out of hopelessness and there were very few parts made of wood, while in the USSR there were more and more metal parts in aircraft.
            1. CentDo
              CentDo 29 November 2017 11: 35 New
              +2
              Hmm, so in the USSR this was done from hopelessness, and not from a good life.
              Not half, of course, here I went too far, I agree with you, but the fact remains.
              1. verner1967
                verner1967 29 November 2017 22: 01 New
                0
                Quote: CentDo
                but the fact remains.

                just looking at how to interpret this fact.
  2. polpot
    polpot 26 November 2017 15: 22 New
    +4
    Thank you interesting article interesting car
  3. NF68
    NF68 26 November 2017 15: 36 New
    +6
    For Non-219, there was a lack of more powerful aircraft engines than those installed on them. Despite all the efforts of the German industry for real large-scale production of these new engines could not be organized. With Jumo-213 EB, DB-603 EC, DB-603 L with MW-50, DB-603 N and other altitude options based on DB-603, Jumo-222 A / B-3 and Jumo-222 E / F TTX Non-219 would be significantly higher.
    1. rubin6286
      rubin6286 28 November 2017 00: 59 New
      0
      Since August 1944, with the outbreak of hostilities on the European continent, the British reduced the number of heavy bombers raids and preferred twin-engine high-speed vehicles. Engine power DB-603 was enough for the car. She easily caught up with Mosquito. In addition to it, Me-110 G-4 and Yu-88G-6 were produced. They were not removed from production until the end of the war.
      1. NF68
        NF68 3 January 2018 16: 58 New
        +1
        Quote: rubin6286
        The power of the DB-603 engine was enough for the car. She easily caught up with Mosquito. In addition to it, Me-110 Г-4 and Ю-88Г-6 were produced. They were not discontinued until the end of the war.


        Nemtsf would not mind if they had at their disposal more powerful engines such as DB-603 L with 1945 years developing 2400 hp, DB-603 EC-2400 hp or even more powerful DB-603 N developing 2750 hp. But the Germans could no longer organize the mass production of these engine variants at the end of the war, and therefore they had to manage with DB-603 A and DB-603 E which developed only 50 hp with MW-2250 on take-off.
  4. seti
    seti 26 November 2017 15: 39 New
    +4
    Very interesting article. Thanks for the information.
  5. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 26 November 2017 16: 50 New
    +4
    Excellent performance characteristics, and even with such antennas. The design, for sure, is very low-tech, so there was no turning point in the air war - it was unrealistic to make a lot of these Uhu.
    1. rubin6286
      rubin6286 28 November 2017 01: 01 New
      0
      The Germans did not have the task of increasing the output of these machines. They also had a plan and produced as much as was ordered, taking into account losses and disasters.
      1. Aviator_
        Aviator_ 28 November 2017 08: 48 New
        +1
        In principle, they could not mass-produce them. So what about
        [/ quote] released as much as was ordered, taking into account losses and disasters. [quote]
        - "he will eat something, but who will give him so much!"
      2. NF68
        NF68 28 November 2017 17: 01 New
        +2
        Quote: rubin6286
        The Germans did not have the task of increasing the output of these machines. They also had a plan and produced as much as was ordered, taking into account losses and disasters.


        Perhaps the Germans would very much like to produce more Non-219, and Ju-88 with Ju-188, but in this case everything was limited by the number of engines for these aircraft, which the German industry had the opportunity to produce. Throughout the war, the Germans produced only 9163 Jumo-213 engines of various series, only 289 Jumo-222, and until the end of 1944, only 8758 engines of the DB-603 type; for 1945 year, data on the released engines were not saved.
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 29 November 2017 08: 46 New
          +1
          Yes, industrial capacities decided everything. Initially, the German military doctrine was set to blitzkrieg, hence the emphasis on the mass plane of the Yu-87 battlefield, but fighting the USSR, the “blitzkrieg” was delayed by the Germans (not their fault, we just “fought wrong”), and everything ran into production and human reserves.
    2. rubin6286
      rubin6286 29 November 2017 00: 12 New
      0
      I clearly said that the Germans had three types of night fighters with approximately the same TTD, equipment, and combat effectiveness. Initially, they did not anticipate the mass production of only the Xe-219, because there was a war going on and this would entail the suspension of a number of aircraft factories, which was unacceptable during this period. The Eagle Owl did not have such versatility. It was a narrowly specialized machine.
  6. Magic archer
    Magic archer 26 November 2017 17: 13 New
    +5
    I’m still amazed at the German engineering genius! It’s good that Hitler was an idiot and instead of throwing forces on adequate weapons, he continued to search for “super-weapons”! I didn’t know what exactly, but the ejection seats for both pilots were first installed on this plane! Plus magnificent equipping ADVANCED radio electronics at that time! Thanks to the author !!!
    1. rubin6286
      rubin6286 28 November 2017 01: 04 New
      0
      You generally think that you are writing. Do you seriously consider the German people a herd of sheep, which was run by an elected elect, who seized almost the entire continental part of Western Europe in less than two years? Maybe something is wrong with you?
  7. Curious
    Curious 26 November 2017 20: 57 New
    +1
    Primary school level article. In order not to engage in copy paste, if anyone is interested in a normal article on the topic, written competently - http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/he219.html.
    1. NF68
      NF68 27 November 2017 16: 01 New
      +3
      Quote: Curious
      Primary school level article. In order not to engage in copy paste, if anyone is interested in a normal article on the topic, written competently - http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/he219.html.


      Avirvar also lacks various errors, including materials relating to German aviation. At least 2 errors in materials concerning FW-190 D-11-15 FW-190 A-9 I accidentally discovered there. One of the errors was reported to the owner of the site, while the second has not yet.
      1. Curious
        Curious 27 November 2017 17: 10 New
        +1
        The one who does nothing is not mistaken. I’m not about the absence of mistakes, I’m about attitude to the matter.
        If a person is an ignoramus in aviation, he will not write a good article in this topic, even with tons of material. The same applies to any other. But people do not understand this, for some reason.
        1. rubin6286
          rubin6286 28 November 2017 01: 08 New
          +1
          In my opinion, an article is valuable when the author wrote in it what others did not write. If this is not the case, then you can "pour over from empty to empty" for an arbitrarily long time.
          1. NF68
            NF68 28 November 2017 17: 09 New
            +2
            Quote: rubin6286
            In my opinion, an article is valuable when the author wrote in it what others did not write. If this is not the case, then you can "pour over from empty to empty" for an arbitrarily long time.


            On the http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/he219.html airvar, material about Non-219 is much more capacious.
            1. rubin6286
              rubin6286 29 November 2017 00: 33 New
              +2
              It is necessary to write in an article about a specific aircraft not what others wrote about it, but about those features that are not yet disclosed in the literature. It is not accessible by “romance” romantics. and specialized specialists with aviation education and access to specialized and educational literature. There are almost none left on the VO website. That "pour" from empty to empty, "couch" romance and some comments are frankly empty and meaningless. An article about a night fighter barrage. and they’re “carrying” some nonsense about La-5, Yak-9, Thunderbolts and so on. Here is a simple example: A person writes that the He-219 needed a more powerful engine. The more powerful the engine, the greater the fuel consumption, the greater the fuel consumption, the smaller the radius of action, and the fighter is barrage. The heavier the aircraft, the greater the effort on the control stick, the more difficult the piloting and the ability to perform a sharp horizontal and vertical maneuver. The driver of the car, driving a car in a night city with poor street lighting, moves at a lower speed than during the day on city streets. Now imagine a night crash in cloudy conditions. Why then increase engine power and is it the point?
              1. NF68
                NF68 29 November 2017 17: 13 New
                +2
                Here is a simple example: A person writes that the He-219 needed a more powerful engine. The more powerful the engine, the greater the fuel consumption, the greater the fuel consumption, the smaller the radius of action, and the fighter is barrage. The heavier the aircraft, the greater the effort on the control stick, the more difficult the piloting and the ability to perform a sharp horizontal and vertical maneuver.


                Oddly enough, all countries tried to increase the power of aircraft engines to the extent possible so that their aircraft had higher performance characteristics including the USSR. Such higher performance characteristics were needed only during combat and with rapid climb. In an economical mode of operation, these engines were also exploited when there was no need to squeeze out everything that was possible from the aircraft.

                The driver of the car, driving a car in a night city with poor street lighting, moves at a lower speed than during the day on city streets. Now imagine a night crash in cloudy conditions. Why then increase engine power and is it the point?


                Comparison with cars and streets is superfluous. Higher performance characteristics were needed for the planes in order to be able to take a more favorable position with respect to the enemy and to be able to attack using this position convenient for attack, as well as to be able to break away from the attacking enemy or catch up with this enemy himself.
                1. rubin6286
                  rubin6286 30 November 2017 01: 23 New
                  +1
                  You draw the wrong conclusions from my comments. Why do you need a powerful motor. Today, even children know a combat aircraft. I wrote about something else. You need to carefully read Zefirov’s book “Asy of the Luftwaffe. Night fighters.” It very well describes the organization of the Reich’s air defense during the reflection of night raids. There is also the book "W. Jonen" Luftwaffe Night Squadrons. It describes the tactics of conducting night air combat in the last war. They are different from how they did during the day. The Luftwaffe night barrage fighters were supposed to meet the enemy not over German territory, but a little earlier - over the Atlantic and France. The enemy was a group of targets, following in combat order a "column of links" at a speed of 220-390 km / h at a height of at least 4 thousand meters and the main thing was to find them in time. German night fighters were almost almost twice as fast in the entire range of heights.The engine power was enough to catch up and take an advantageous position when firing.The other was missing - reliable radars and night sights, effective aviation weapons, which allowed
                  hit the target from a distance of 150-300 meters. They are forced to approach at close range, while losing stealth and falling under the fire of airborne shooters. And those and others do not fall below, due to a barrage of anti-aircraft fire and the work of spotlights.
                  1. fighter angel
                    fighter angel 30 November 2017 09: 33 New
                    0
                    Ohhhh! So you, dear, read the "chronicler of the Luftwaffe" marshmallow !!! ??? I understand everything. I have no more questions ... I think the conversation is over.
                  2. NF68
                    NF68 30 November 2017 23: 59 New
                    +1
                    Quote: rubin6286
                    You draw the wrong conclusions from my comments. Why do you need a powerful motor. Today, even children know a combat aircraft.


                    Children know something, but one of those who are actively discussing something here does not know this.
        2. NF68
          NF68 28 November 2017 17: 07 New
          +3
          Quote: Curious
          The one who does nothing is not mistaken. I’m not about the absence of mistakes, I’m about attitude to the matter.
          If a person is an ignoramus in aviation, he will not write a good article in this topic, even with tons of material. The same applies to any other. But people do not understand this, for some reason.


          There is a lot of such material about Non-219 in German on the Internet. If you need to search properly, then you can find a lot of more detailed information. Especially when it comes to German piston aircraft engines. I didn’t look for these detailed materials translated into Russian before, so I didn’t find anything worthwhile, and then I took it and wrote out such a book in German and translated into Russian materials on the most interesting of these engines. No wonder they often mention that WWII was also a war of motors.
    2. iouris
      iouris 29 November 2017 02: 21 New
      0
      Quote: Curious
      Primary school level article

      I do not find anything wrong with that. The author did some work, offered interesting material. Another thing is that some comments are not even drawn to the elementary school level. But such is the harsh reality.
  8. slaventi
    slaventi 27 November 2017 05: 33 New
    0
    German military thought in many ways overtook time. And they had good panther tigers, etc., it was more expensive and difficult to manufacture, a simple example of the MP 40 and our PCA. Not only was it more expensive but still inferior in terms of performance ..That same 5 LA made of plywood was several times cheaper than the German Foke-Wulf. The tiger is a good tank with the best gun .. but there were few ... They could play a decisive role in the 43 year, but already in 44 we had IS 2 and T 34-85 ....... Maybe even the greatest help of the Entente was not in Lend-Lease ... And the fact that most of its aviation The Germans were forced to keep on the western front .... In the early years of the war it was extremely vazhno.Nu for us and we are already 43 captured supremacy in the skies ....
    1. rubin6286
      rubin6286 28 November 2017 01: 13 New
      +1
      All modern weapons are always more expensive in the production of what was before. PPSh is "ripped off" from the Finnish Suomi submachine gun, and Suomi from the American analogue of the 1929 model. Plywood La-5 is cheaper than FV-190, but not more effective, especially since they fight not only with skill, but also with numbers.
      1. fighter angel
        fighter angel 28 November 2017 13: 50 New
        +1
        You are mumbling something, dear! Are you a representative of the "exclusive nation" worshipers? Where then is the information about copying Suomi from the American analogue? Which analogue? Gangster Thompson? You made such a conclusion on the disk store? And the fact that “Thompson” and “Suomi” are two completely different systems did not occur to you? And on airplanes: La-5, in the La-5FN variant at altitudes of up to 5-6 km, it completely surpassed the FV-190 in all the main flight characteristics, the horizontal flight speeds were approximately equal, the only thing the Fok won was the speed dive. As a front-line fighter, it was Lavochkin that was much more effective. But Foka remained a "fighter-nedosturmovik-nedobombardiro
        a helper. "In no military incarnation was he the best-pay for" universalism "!
        1. NF68
          NF68 28 November 2017 17: 17 New
          +1
          Quote: fighter angel
          And on airplanes: La-5, in the La-5FN variant, at altitudes up to 5-6 km completely surpassed the PV-190 in all the main flight characteristics, the horizontal flight speeds were approximately equal, the only thing the Fock won was speed dive.


          Serial La-7 had a maximum speed of not more than 661 km / h. Rate of climb maximum 1111 m / min. FW-190 D-9 at an altitude of 6,6 km. without MW-50 it developed at a speed of 685 km / h, with MW-50 at an altitude of 4, -4,8 developed to 700-705 km / h, climb at the same altitude 18,5 m / s is about the same 1111 m / min. Those FW-190 with a Jumo-213 A-1 bomber engine adapted for this fighter at altitudes of 4-7 km. superior to La 7 op main performance characteristics.
          1. fighter angel
            fighter angel 28 November 2017 23: 24 New
            0
            Well, contradict yourself. It is said, heights up to 5-6 km, you write to me about the speed of "Dora" at an altitude of 6.6 km. With care you have problems, apparently! The injection of the water-methanol mixture does not count at all - in this mode the engine worked for 1-2 for a maximum of a minute. And the specialist for you is the maximum speed of La-7, it turns out 680 km-h, what are you trying to misinform? Dora’s speed at the ground is 576 km-h, and at altitude, the same 680 km-h. So the speed indicators are at least similar, there are no Dora superiority! And the point! Now for the rate of climb. "Dora" - 954 m.-min., La-7 this indicator is 1110 m.-min. The superiority of Lavochkin is obvious!
            The second point! I make a reservation right up to the heights of 5-6 km. The data is taken from publicly available sources. You have in the Finlandland, apparently some other sources, “revenge”, as they said in the USSR. You don’t really believe them, they are deceiving you!
            1. NF68
              NF68 29 November 2017 17: 29 New
              +1
              Well, contradict yourself. It is said, heights up to 5-6 km, you write to me about the speed of "Dora" at an altitude of 6.6 km. With care you have problems, apparently! The injection of the water-methanol mixture does not count at all - in this mode the engine worked for 1-2 for a maximum of a minute. And the specialist for you is the maximum speed of La-7, it turns out 680 km-h, what are you trying to misinform? Dora’s speed at the ground is 576 km-h, and at altitude, the same 680 km-h. So the speed indicators are at least similar, there are no Dora superiority! And the point! Now for the rate of climb. "Dora" - 954 m.-min., La-7 this indicator is 1110 m.-min. The superiority of Lavochkin is obvious!
              The second point! I will make a reservation right up to the heights of 5-6 km. Data taken from publicly available sources.

              For starters, you would be familiar with the fact that the MW-50 water-methanol boost system could be used continuously not for 1-2 minutes, but 10 minutes. And for the one fact that for La-7 the maximum speed of the REFERENCE standard is indicated, and serial La-7 developed no more than 658-661 km / h. And also to get acquainted with the fact that in the USSR the tests of the FW-190 D-9 MW-50-fighter FW 190D-9 were used for training air combat with La-7, which showed the complete advantage of the domestic machine. Pilots of the institute, engineer-lieutenant colonel A.G. Kochetkov, lieutenant colonels A.G. Proshakov and V.I. Khomyakov, major V.E. Golofastov came to the conclusion: it’s not easier for a German novelty to fight with a “shop” than its predecessor FW 190A -8. Having started the “battle” on the opposite courses, the Soviet fighter stepped into the tail of the “German” after the third turn or the second combat turn. However, it should be noted that the “battles” were conducted without the use of an emergency mode of operation of the engine with the injection of water-methanol mixture.
              http://www.airpages.ru/lw/fw190d.shtml

              The British data on their tests of German aircraft, and especially for some reason fighters, almost always indicate higher performance characteristics of German fighters than in the USSR.

              You have some kind of other sources in Vaterland, “revenge”, as they said in the USSR. You don’t really believe them, they are deceiving you!


              It is customary for us to first study the available documents, and only then to argue about something. And they also teach not to climb up the stands that have turned up along the way and to debate on topics that you don’t understand.
              1. fighter angel
                fighter angel 29 November 2017 23: 02 New
                0
                Eco brings you, my dear! Self-esteem must have soared into the clouds! You just don’t have to lift your nose, because you can stumble ... and even fall ... God forbid! And about the injection system, yes you're right, 10 minutes, I agree here. BUT! After this 10-minute injection, the engine had to 5-7 minutes work in normal mode, at medium speeds. That is, at first it seems like a jerk, an advantage, and then an average operating mode, the car loses its gained speed and becomes more vulnerable. The advantage is quickly lost. The comparative air battle you brought, for which thanks, by the way, confirms what I said above.
                1. NF68
                  NF68 1 December 2017 00: 04 New
                  +2
                  Quote: fighter angel
                  Eco brings you, my dear! Self-esteem must have soared into the clouds! You just don’t have to lift your nose, because you can stumble ... and even fall ... God forbid! And about the injection system, yes you're right, 10 minutes, I agree here. BUT! After this 10-minute injection, the engine had to 5-7 minutes work in normal mode, at medium speeds. That is, at first it seems like a jerk, an advantage, and then an average operating mode, the car loses its gained speed and becomes more vulnerable. The advantage is quickly lost. The comparative air battle you brought, for which thanks, by the way, confirms what I said above.


                  Yeah. Any WWII aircraft engine in afterburner could work for no more than 10 minutes. This also applies to Soviet aircraft engines. But if the ASH-82 FN could be forced at altitudes of not more than 2000 meters, then German and American aircraft could be forced up to an altitude of 5-6 km, and American aircraft with 2-speed superchargers and turbochargers in general up to 8 / 10 and more than km.
                  1. fighter angel
                    fighter angel 1 December 2017 09: 20 New
                    0
                    And so it turns out. The Red Army Air Force needed front-line fighters, clearing the corridor from the ground to 3-4 km., For the attack aircraft and front-line bombers to work, hence the corresponding engines. Our result was achieved. And the amers, with their bomber raids, just needed high-altitude heavy fighter escort-as you write-8-10 km. and more. Everyone eventually got what he needed at that time. Worst of all was the not very small, low-rise Eastern Front, and at the same time the maximum "ceilings" in the west ... It is difficult to create machines with such conflicting requirements. Well, it's your own fault.
                    1. NF68
                      NF68 1 December 2017 16: 41 New
                      +3
                      Quote: fighter angel
                      And so it turns out. The Red Army Air Force needed front-line fighters, clearing the corridor from the ground to 3-4 km., For the attack aircraft and front-line bombers to work, hence the corresponding engines. Our result was achieved.


                      Already during the Battle of Stalingrad, air battles were not infrequently fought at altitudes of 6 or more than km. In the Red Army Air Force by this time, too, something had already been learned.

                      Quote: fighter angel
                      And so it turns out. The Red Army Air Force needed front-line fighters, clearing the corridor from the ground to 3-4 km., For the attack aircraft and front-line bombers to work, hence the corresponding engines. Our result was achieved. And the amers, with their bomber raids, just needed high-altitude heavy fighter escort-as you write-8-10 km. and more. Everyone eventually got what he needed at that time. Worst of all was the not very small, low-rise Eastern Front, and at the same time the maximum "ceilings" in the west ... It is difficult to create machines with such conflicting requirements. Well, it's your own fault.


                      The Germans did not have difficulties with the creation of fighters optimized for the conditions of the Eastern Front. They faced much more problems with the organization of production of such fighters. Variant FW-190 D-9 with DB-603 A developed on take-off 2250 hp. has been developed. the speed of this option at ground level was inferior to the serial FW-190 D-9 at 5 km / h, at an estimated height of about 10-14 km / h, but the rate of climb at an altitude of 4 km. was equal to 19,6 m / s., Option FW-190 D-9 c Jumo-213 S 2400 hp., Altitude 4,5 km. It was much simpler than any high-altitude version - in fact, this was the same FW-190 D-9 with the Jumo-213 A engine running on C3 gasoline with only a lower altitude. And the FW-190 variant with the Jumo-213 A powered by the C3 was also tested. This option is without using the MW-50 system at an altitude of 6,6 km. developed 712 km / h With water methanol at an altitude of 4,7-4,8 km. quite 725-730 km / h can be obtained. FW-190 D-9 with DB-603 EC-2400 hp also tested. Reduce the altitude of the DB-603 EC engine from 7 km. to 4,5-5 km. and takeoff power can be increased by 50, and then by 10 hp.
                    2. verner1967
                      verner1967 1 December 2017 18: 29 New
                      0
                      Quote: fighter angel
                      And so it turns out. The Red Army Air Force needed front-line fighters, clearing the corridor from the ground up to 3-4 km., For the attack aircraft and front-line bombers to work, hence the corresponding engines. Our result was achieved

                      you confuse the cause with the effect, not the engines began to correspond to the heights, but the heights of the engines.
                      Quote: fighter angel
                      front-line fighters clearing the corridor from the ground up to 3-4 km.

                      this is not a corridor, but a tunnel, besides a holey one, taking advantage of this, nemchura attacked from above and had a complete advantage in the air, especially in 41-42
        2. rubin6286
          rubin6286 29 November 2017 01: 36 New
          +2
          I don’t want to argue with you or be a consultant. What will I advise you:
          1. You need to read more and better understand what you read. Concerning small arms, a lot of literature and "waste paper" are now published. Try to read it all the same: Bolotin, “Soviet Small Arms”. Beetle "Rifles and assault rifles", Vannikov "Notes of the People’s Commissar." It is useful to go to the Forum on relevant topics.
          2. It is not planes that fight, they do not develop speed, they do not perform a turn. Combat turn, etc., but people in them. Only from the point of view of design can an aircraft perform one or another maneuver. The performance characteristics of the aircraft are determined by the test results. The vehicles come in the tests, as they say, of "manual assembly" and the pilots are extra-class, and serial vehicles go to the front, and the majority of pilots are much lower in their class. It was with us. and "with them." In each specific situation, it is not the plane that wins the battle, but the pilot in it. Any generalizations -
          "liberty" conjunctural "liberty" of writers. In reality, there can be no generalizations. Read Drabkin. He managed to record the latest stories of front-line pilots who have survived to this day. When you write that “Foka” has remained a “fighter-nedosturmovik-nedobombardiro
          ". In no combat role was he the best-pay for" universalism "! Do you seriously think that the German designers were dumber than you and did not understand the obvious truths? For starters, download the thin film" He conquers the sky "on the Internet. There the work of designers and pilots is illustrated by the example of a particular aircraft. It is better if you select the section most suitable for your education and profession on the VO website. Your comments will become much more interesting and informative.
          1. fighter angel
            fighter angel 29 November 2017 09: 22 New
            0
            You leave your advice in favor of the poor! Nothing to say, say so. You have no arguments, and admit it. And all the books listed, and not only those listed, have been read and understood by me. And Alexander Borisovich Zhuk, not only “Rifles and assault rifles.” He, let it be known to you, goes in separate books: “Magazine rifles”, “Submachine guns”, “Assault rifles and assault rifles”. The fact that you integrated them into one, once again suggests that you did not read anything, but only heard something somewhere. And Drabkin is a memoir; one can exaggerate something, to put it mildly, somewhere. I rely more on facts, archival documents. I'm used to operating them. And teach it better to "cook cabbage soup", as one of the heroes of the cult film said. Otherwise, you will be sent to lead an erotic hiking trip. I hope we understand each other ...
            1. rubin6286
              rubin6286 29 November 2017 11: 40 New
              +3
              The content of this comment of yours can be used to judge your education, level of knowledge and thinking. Again, I repeat that you need not only to read, but also to understand what you read. I just recommended some publications where you can find answers to those questions that were asked to me in previous comments. Search, read and delve ...

              As for the "grandfathers", the front-line soldiers did not always have an idea of ​​what was behind. Censorship worked, letters were checked and “lost” in the literal and figurative sense of the word. In 1944-45 the situation was certainly not critical, but regarding the lend-lease, the quantity and quality of the delivered products, one should not argue, but be guided by the Russian proverb “Expensive testicle to Christ's day”.
              The point is not in percentages, as you write, but in what was set by Lend-Lease. In this sense, I will repeat one of my past comments on an article on the VO website. I hope that you will be interested. So:

              “A lot of articles have been written about Lend-Lease during the last war and its role for the USSR. The leitmotif of most of them was the assertion that Lend-Lease helped our country, but even without it we would have defeated fascism, only the struggle was even longer and bloody. Many authors argue that "our country would certainly be able to withstand and win, but it is not possible to determine how much the price of victory would increase."

              It's time to put everything in its place. If from abroad 53% of gunpowder and explosives, 76% of copper, 106% of aluminum, 223% of tin, 138% of cobalt, 102% of wool, 66% of sugar, 480% of canned meat were obtained, then without this raw material many industries of our industry would simply become, not to mention rail transport, where the share of foreign traction composition exceeded the domestic one by 21,4 times, and wagons by more than 10 times. How would our army manage without 447 cars, which was 785 times more than our own cars. Having read the “books”, you can compare the tactical and technical characteristics of foreign and Soviet military equipment as much as you want, argue hoarsely which was better, but 1,5 airplanes delivered under Lend-Lease were not at all redundant for us, as well as more than 8918 tanks that can they were worse than the German ones, but much better than our T-500s and BTs. For some reason, no one writes about American aviation gasoline and lubricating oils, submarines, torpedo boats, minesweepers, Browning heavy machine guns, shoes, underwear, flight uniforms, radio stations, sea mines and torpedoes, amphibious vehicles, bandages and medicines and other There was an American stew at the front, as well as pork lard, margarine and other products, which there was simply nothing to replace in the country.

              In the late 40s, my father served in the Far East and flew on the Kingcobra P-63, and before it on La-9 and La-11. He said that the post-war Lavochkins were worse than the Cobra and the German FV-190D9. From "Cobra" he switched to the MiG-15 and fought on it in Korea. According to the recollections of his mother, who was evacuated in Uzbekistan and returned to Odessa in 1944, if it were not for American transports with food, people would simply starve to death. The stew went to the front, and the civilian got the “lard" on the cards, some flour, cereals. Her neighbor, who had gone through the entire war as a driver, said that by the end of the war, "the whole army was in American cars." “Jeeps,” “Doji,” “Studebaker,” everything was theirs.

              Lend-Lease helped defeat fascism. President Roosevelt, the American government and the people of America correctly assessed the threat and rendered all necessary assistance to our country.
              1. fighter angel
                fighter angel 29 November 2017 14: 45 New
                0
                Do you judge education and erudition by the number of printed characters? In vain, we are not in China, it is there that the level of education is determined by the number of known hieroglyphs. The fact that you write opuses here, spending time on it is your difficulties. I can not afford such calculations. Until I can. Only briefly, reasoned and to the point. Because, unlike, apparently, from you, I still have certain responsibilities, business, if you want. But “highly intellectual conversations” with you, dear, don’t understand anything, or about small arms, or about airplanes, or about Lend-Lease figures, somehow these are not included in my plans. You are apparently bursting with your own erudition, and you don’t know in what area to show your erudition ... For small arms, you say that Suomi is copied from the American analogue, but there are no facts ... According to La-7 / FV-190- figures Yours are wrong, the source is unknown, "not set off", more precisely, two "not set off" to you. As they said in Soviet military universities ... Well, at least something about the Lend-Lease was provided in numbers ... But they also need to be checked, because, sorry, I believe it with great difficulty ... By the way, do not remind me how and what the USSR paid for these deliveries and what it cost a warring and bloodless country ... So, look, think ... How to decide, write, continue if I have a desire to communicate with you.
                1. verner1967
                  verner1967 1 December 2017 18: 54 New
                  0
                  Quote: fighter angel
                  By the way, but don’t you remind how and how the USSR paid for these deliveries

                  Bah, how much strain!
                  Quote: fighter angel
                  a warring and bloodless country ...
                  It cost exactly as much as was left, everything that was returned back or lost in battle, or used up, eaten, burned .... it was without compensation, that is, for nothing! Or do you think that the USSR helped China, Spain, etc. is free? How so! Fighting for everything at higher prices, including and for the technique burned and lost along the way. So the Americans need to say thanks for the land lease.
          2. Curious
            Curious 29 November 2017 10: 58 New
            +1
            “It is necessary to write in an article about a specific aircraft not what others wrote about it, but about those features that have not yet been disclosed in the literature. This is available not by“ couch ”romantics, but by specialized specialists with aviation education and access to special and educational literature. "
            Expressing a perfectly correct thought, you, rubin6286, immediately contradict it. Bolotin "Soviet small arms." Beetle "Rifles and assault rifles", Vannikov "Notes of the people's commissar" the books are no doubt very good. However, this is not "special and educational literature." Yes, and your education, judging by the set of proposed literature, is not Voenmekh. But undertake to draw global conclusions in the field of designing small arms.
            Or are you just giving other good advice?
            1. rubin6286
              rubin6286 29 November 2017 12: 02 New
              +1
              If you are talking about specialized and educational literature, then over the past years, it is very difficult to find it in open sales (at the “flea market”). In aviation universities and technical schools (colleges) it is still found. Previously, some of these books were “under the stamp”, but Today, no one is hindering an attempt to gain special knowledge. Of course, I have a number of textbooks of those years. For instance:
              1. A.I. Sutugin "Designing aircraft parts", Oborghiz, the main editorial board of aviation literature, Moscow, 1947,
              2.P.M. Znamensky "The influence of the main parameters of the fighter on the strength, structure and weight of the aircraft." M. 1944
              3.B.N. Yuryev "Experimental aerodynamics" M.Oborgiz, 1936
              4. L.I. Sutugin "Mechanized Wings" M. Oborongiz, 1940.

              On the history of the development of small arms, there are on sale a lot of popular science literature and many interesting articles on the Forum as amateurs. and professionals. Read, search, delve ...
              1. Curious
                Curious 29 November 2017 14: 32 New
                0
                Read, search, delve .....
                And when will you follow your advice?
        3. verner1967
          verner1967 1 December 2017 18: 41 New
          +1
          Quote: fighter angel
          La-5, in the La-5FN variant, at altitudes up to 5-6 km, it completely surpassed the FV-190 in all the main flight characteristics

          I completely agree with you about the chain of submachine guns, with a little clarification, the store there is drum and not disk. As for the comparison of La-5FN and FV-190 (by the way, which one?), Then here you are wrong. Our sources carefully write about La-5FN "not inferior." And then, taking into account only the data of the standard sample, unfortunately, the serial fighter did not reach these indicators, the backward production technology affected it, and it is we (at least I) who are talking about it.
          Quote: fighter angel
          But Foka remained a "fighter-nedosturmovik-nedobombardiro
          a helper. "In no military incarnation was he the best-pay for" universalism "!
          The Foka was a fighter and quite an outstanding fighter for that time, and they tried to adapt it for bombing and attack by severe necessity, because at one time they waved their hand at the construction of a worthy dive and attack aircraft. By the way, he coped with these tasks much better than his classmates.
          1. fighter angel
            fighter angel 5 December 2017 17: 25 New
            0
            FV-190, initially caused terror among Spitfire pilots on the Western Front. "Spitfire Mk.5", the latest at that time, he exceeded the engine power, maximum speed, angular roll speed — he changed the turn direction faster. Later it surpassed it in armament. The first Fokah were only 4 machine guns, later 2 machine guns went, and in different versions up to 4 guns. They appeared here in the winter of 1942 near Demyansk and in February-March 1943 in the region of Stalingrad-Rostov. We did not have such shock and "awe" as before the FV-190 in the west, although it was clear that the enemy was more than serious. The Fok pilots in the East, apparently assessing their capabilities, the capabilities of our aircraft - La-5, La-5F, Yak-1B, Yak-7B, Yak-9, setting priorities, together tried to tackle the destruction of our IL-2 and " Pawn ", and with fighters, as necessary. As a “fighter” of attack aircraft and bombers, the FV-190 with its armament and speed was unsurpassed, but from the second half of the 43rd, on the Eastern Front, it began to “surrender” fighters. This is directly indicated by the results of air battles.
            1. NF68
              NF68 5 December 2017 20: 34 New
              +1
              Quote: fighter angel
              but to fighters already from the second half of 43, on the Eastern Front, he began to "surrender." This is directly indicated by the results of air battles.


              The main problem here was that the Germans could not afford to simultaneously produce fighters of various FW-190 series from A-3 to A-9 optimized for the conditions of the Western and Eastern fronts, although various attempts took place. For example, the test is lightweight to about 3700 kg. FW-190 A-3 / U7 which was temporarily planned to be used as a high-altitude fighter. Even with the BMW-801 D2 engine, this vendor developed speeds of up to 6600 km / h at an altitude of 696 meters and had a maximum climb rate of 17,6 m / s.

              https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/913
              52-focke-wulf-190-a-3u7-1-h%C3%B6henj%C3%A4ger/

              Tests of the same variant with a much more powerful BMW-801 E allowed us to obtain a climb rate of already 21,5 m / s. There is no data on maximum speed with this significantly more powerful engine, but with 2000 hp take-off power. it would be possible to accelerate this aircraft to a speed of the order of 710-715 km / h at the same altitude of 6600 meters. If you leave the serial engine BMW-801 D2, but do not remove all reservations and machine guns from the FW-190 A-3 / U7, you could still get the maximum speed of about 50 km / h even without the MW-6600 system at an altitude of 680 meters. For the Eastern Front in 1942, this is a very high figure, even though the climb rate will be slightly lower than 17,5 m / s.
              1. fighter angel
                fighter angel 5 December 2017 21: 48 New
                +1
                You can give any numbers showing the high, really high speed of the FV-190, BUT! Read our front-line pilots, fighters, offhand I will call Dolgushin and Arkhipenko, and even at the same Drabkin- "I-Fighter." And they all literally say the following: The maximum speed in those air battles, as such, is SPECIAL AND NOT NEEDED !!! It allows you to catch up with the enemy and get out of the battle, and then, when leaving the battle, it would be extremely desirable to have a reserve of altitude. That did not always happen in air battles on the Eastern Front. An example, if I’m not mistaken, of course, is Otto Kittel, who in 1944, in the battle with the Yak-9, did not have either speed or altitude ... He piloted the FV-190. Well, to hell with him, as they say, there is a way to him. Not about him now. So, in the opinion of our front-line pilots, the main thing in the air battle itself is not at all the maximum speed, it is no longer needed here, because in the speed of air battles, with constant maneuvering, the maximum speed is NOBODY AS A RULE! And the main indicator here, in their opinion, is the FIGHTING SPEED of the aircraft, and more precisely, the DYNAMIC SPEED OF THE FIGHTER! That is, the dynamics of the change in speed, how quickly the fighter can pick up speed, and how quickly he can throw it off to perform the next maneuver, and then pick up again. And here the superiority of our “Yaks” and “Lavochkins” in late 1943 and early 1944 was simply unconditional. They, and especially the “Yak”, literally “WAS GOING FOR THE GAS” !!! The heavy and inert FV-190 could not afford such a thing, in the 43rd it was no longer once saved by the "legendary agility" due to the high angular roll speed. Our cars have already surpassed him in this indicator too. The Foka was slowly accelerating and slowly slowing down. So in the "dog dumps" with our La-5FN, La-7, Yak-9U, Yak-9M, Yak-3 could not count on a successful outcome. The exception is if the enemy "cracked" his attack ... But at the end of the 43rd and even more so in 1944, there were few of these in our Air Force. Most were already "shot" ... FV-190 switched to the tactics of "hit run, "and tried to avoid maneuvering battles with our cars. But they did not always succeed. This led to an almost complete loss of initiative, and to a loss in the struggle for air supremacy.
                1. NF68
                  NF68 6 December 2017 00: 12 New
                  +1
                  Quote: fighter angel
                  You can give any numbers showing the high, really high speed of the PV-190, BUT! Read our front-line pilots, fighters, offhand I will call Dolgushin and Arkhipenko, and even at the same Drabkin- "I-Fighter." And they all literally say the following: The maximum speed in those air battles, as such, is SPECIAL AND NOT NEEDED !!! It allows you to catch up with the enemy and get out of the battle, and then, when leaving the battle, it would be extremely desirable to have a reserve of altitude. That did not always happen in air battles on the Eastern Front.


                  If you read a little more carefully what I am writing to my colleague regarding the FW-190-x, then you would understand that I am reminding you first of all of what to create the FW-190 A-3-9 with BMW-801 D2, BMW engines -801 E or more powerful BMW-801 S with 1945 years, which developed at take-off power in 2200 hp. or FW-190 D 9 with Jumo-213 S, engine altitude 4500 meters, engine power on take-off 2400 hp - this version of the Jumo engine was specially designed by the Germans to make the FW-190 D-9 more fully meet the conditions of warfare on the Eastern Front than serial fighters of the same type with Jumo-213 A-1, 5500 meters engines.

                  BUT, since the Germans from the 1942 year and until the end of WWII could not organize the simultaneous release of FW-190 type fighters of various series from A-3 to A-9 OPTIMIZED for the Western and Eastern fronts, the Germans had to use the East the front are the same FW-190 series from A-3 to A-9 which were initially produced by them with additional weapons and armor without which on the Western front when fighting heavy allied bombers and therefore on the Eastern Front these FW-190 series from A-3 to A-9 in the conduct of battles with La-5 FN, Yak-X NUMX or La 3 did not fully meet the CONDITIONS of the Eastern Front. But among all the Focke-Wulf fighters manufactured in the 7-1944's, the requirements of the Eastern Front were best suited for the version commercially available FW-1945 D-190, although Jumo-9 A-213 engines were originally designed for bombers and worked on B1 gasoline with an octane rating of 4-87 units instead of gasoline, C89 is synthetic and C3 is obtained by distillation of oil. True, it should be noted right away that the Germans produced C2 gas with a tiny amount, since the Germans had too little oil from which they could get such gasoline.

                  Those, summing up the result of our correspondence, the problem of the Germans, was not that the Germans did not develop variants of Focke-Wulf fighters designed specifically for the Eastern Front, but that the Germans did not have the ability to produce these fighters in a significant amount SIMULTANEOUSLY with fighters intended for The western front and the main problem here was the insufficient number of aircraft engines produced by the Germans during WWII and the synthetic numbers produced by the Germans in insufficient of gasoline on how much the synthetic gasoline during WWII was about 92% of all Germans produced aviatstsionnogo gasoline.

                  As for the aircraft engines I mentioned above, the number of BMW engines is:
                  All experimental BMW 801 engines were manufactured at the BMW-Werk 1 factory in München-Milbertshofen. There, pre-production and serial production began. In July 1941, the former Bramo factory in Berlin-Spandau and in May 1942, the new BMW Werk 2 factory in München-Allach began mass production. The main load on the manufacture of BMW 801 engines was carried by BMW. At the factories in Allach and Milbertshofen until the end of the war, 14605 engines were manufactured. At the factory in Spandau 4213. According to the publication published by Richard Faltermair in the Flugzeug Classic (2003) edition, edition No. 10, and in the BMW report “Program Execution” dated February 1945 of the year until the end of the war, engine production was as follows:

                  1940 year: 232 engines.
                  1941 year: 1708.
                  1942 year: 5225.
                  1943 year: 8658.
                  1944 year: 12222
                  January 1945 of the year: 631.
                  February 1945 of the year at Allach: 310.
                  March 1945 of the year at Allach: 375.
                  The total number of engines produced can be considered equal to almost 30000. The largest number of engines manufactured within one month -1450 units took place in May 1944 of the year. The time required to produce one BMW 801 engine without a fuel injection system, pumps and supercharger was approximately 2000 working hours. The BMW 801 engine was assembled from approximately 3500 parts. During the development of various engine variants, approximately 11000 of various changes were introduced into its design. As a comparison, we can cite data on the most massive German WWII bomber Ju-88. This aircraft was produced in 1937-1944 years in the number of 15100 units in 6 major modifications and in more than 60 versions. Over the years, approximately 3000 changes have been made to the aircraft structure. BMW had a total of 40 test benches for assembled engines. Of these, 16 were in Eisenach-Dürrerhof, Berlin-Spandau, in Barsdorf-Zühlsdorf and 24 in Milbertshofen and Allach. The maximum power that the engine could develop for a short time at the stand was 2220 kW. (3000 hp). The assembled BMW 801 production engine was initially tested on the test bench for 6 hours, then only after 2,5 hours, one hour, and as a result, the test duration was reduced to 15 minutes.

                  http://alternathistory.com/aviatsionnye-dvigateli
                  -firm-siemensbramo-bmw-po-materialam-karla-preste
                  lya?form_build_id=form-8d947b59c95c52b729b7c9e2a9
                  a9cad6 & form_id = comment_controls & mode = 1 & am
                  p; order = 1 & comments_per_page = 300 & op =% 25D0%
                  25A1%25D0%25BE%25D1%2585%25D1%2580%25D0%25B0%25D0
                  %25BD%25D0%25B8%25D1%2582%25D1%258C+%25D0%25BD%25
                  D0%25B0%25D1%2581%25D1%2582%25D1%2580%25D0%25BE%2
                  5D0%25B9%25D0%25BA%25D0%25B8

                  As for the production of aircraft engines by Daimler-Benz, the data are available in this material, at the end:

                  http://alternathistory.com/razrabotki-aviadvigate
                  lei-firmy-daimler-benz

                  But at the end of the 43, and even more so in the 1944, there were few of these in our Air Force. Most were already "fired" ... PV-190 switched to "hit-and-run" tactics, and tried to avoid maneuverable battles with our machines .


                  This tactic was used by German fighter pilots on the Eastern Front from the first days of the war when they flew on single-engine Bf-109 E and Bf-109 F when there were no FW-190 A-1-A-2 fighters at all. Initially, the Germans came to this during the Civil War in Spain and then also improved this business in Poland, over France and over Britain.

                  The same tactics in the Pacific Ocean over time began to be used by the Americans when they figured out how much.
                  1. fighter angel
                    fighter angel 6 December 2017 09: 58 New
                    +1
                    Dear NF-68, I perfectly understood that you are more than well versed in the performance characteristics of German aircraft engines of the Second World War, and in the industrial capabilities of the Third Reich aviation industry. But in matters of combat use, tactics of fighter aircraft, the main tactical methods of air combat - you are not quite competent, I'm sorry, but somehow I personally had such an impression. As soon as I started talking about "dog dumps" and the dynamics of speed in them - you have nothing to say, the numbers went again ... You "pour" numbers on the case and idle, and not always imagining, not always making conclusions, but what or another indicator gives in battle what advantages or vice versa are disadvantages. Knowing the numbers is wonderful, but there are field tests, and there is Fighting REALITY. As the facts show, these are two completely different things! And no matter how you defend the German aviation industry, they say they are remarkable engineers, and if it were not for the war on two fronts, not the bombing of their factories, not a shortage of materials ... etc. etc., you completely forget that REALITY IS IT AND CONSISTS JUST FROM SUCH “IF”. Their “wonderful engineers” would have worked under our conditions, in the evacuation of the Urals, in hunger and cold, with unskilled workers, to see what they did there, and if it worked at all ... So, summing up our conversation with you, I declare I didn’t convince you of the exceptionalism of the FV-190 as a fighter, as a "strangler" of bombers and attack aircraft - I agree here, but since the beginning of 1944, he could not resist fighters. And a fighter, if he is a fighter, must win the battle with any enemy aircraft, this is an axiom. Otherwise, such a "selective fighter" is worthless. They will devour him in battle. So it happened with the Focke-Wulf-190. “Dora” - even with all its merits, it could not play any significant role in the battles of the final period. Yes, and in fact, it was already a completely different plane.
                    1. NF68
                      NF68 6 December 2017 17: 58 New
                      +3
                      Quote: fighter angel
                      As soon as I started talking about "dog dumps" and the dynamics of speed in them - you have nothing to say, again the numbers went ..


                      The disproportionate number of people argued about this. Why repeat again what is already well known?

                      And no matter how you defend the German aviation industry, they say they are remarkable engineers, and if it were not for the war on two fronts, not the bombing of their factories, not a shortage of materials ... etc. etc., you completely forget that REALITY IS IT AND CONSISTS JUST FROM SUCH “IF”.


                      I’m just talking about that same reality — in other words, for the Germans in terms of piston fighters, everything turned out just this way, and not otherwise.

                      So, summarizing our conversation with you, I declare to you - you did not convince of the exceptional character of the PV-190 as a fighter, as a "strangler" of bombers and attack aircraft - I agree here, but he could not resist fighters from the beginning of the 1944 year. And a fighter, if he is a fighter, must win the battle with any enemy aircraft, this is an axiom. Otherwise, such a "selective fighter" is worthless.


                      The axiom is also that the same version of the fighter could not be equally successful for fighting in different conditions, and therefore those who could afford it developed and built several variants of the same type of fighter. If we consider the FW-190 A-8 FW-190 A-9 and FW-190 D-9, these are multi-role fighters designed for medium altitudes — up to approximately 7000 meters. Among these 3 types, the FW-190 D-9 was best suited for battles with enemy fighters at medium altitudes. Especially for high altitudes, FW-190 fighter-bomber series from D 11 to 13 with high-altitude engines with two-stage superchargers and related equipment have been developed. Also, on the basis of the FW-190, more advanced versions of high-altitude fighters Ta-152 B, Ta-152 C and Ta-152 N were developed. But in order for these high-altitude fighters to be able to effectively conduct battles at medium altitudes, they were equipped with a water-methanol system boost MW-50. With this system, the high-altitude Ta-152 H and Ta-152 C at an altitude of 5000 meters could develop a maximum speed of approximately 10 km / h in about 700 minutes, approximately 40-45 km / h more than the serial La-7 and Yak- 3. As the height increases, the superiority in speed of the Ta-152 H and Ta-152 C will be even greater.

                      So it happened with Focke-Wulf-190. “Dora” - even with all its merits, it could not play any significant role in the battles of the final period.


                      FW-190 D-9 at an altitude of 6600 meters exceeded the maximum speed of La-7 by approximately 25 km / h, Yak-3 by approximately 35-40 km / h. At an altitude of 4,7-7,8 km, the speed of FW-190 D-9 using water-methanol boosting was equal to 700-705 km / h, the rate of climb at the same altitude was 18,5 m / s, approximately from an altitude of 3,5-4 km FW-190 D-9 was in no way inferior to either La-7, on the Yak-3. At the minimum height, the speed of the FW-190 D-9 on the afterburner was equal to 612 km / h; at La-7 613 km / h; at the Yak-3, the speed at the minimum height was equal to 567-575 km / h. from which it follows that the FW-190 D-9 at minimum altitudes was inferior to La-7 and Yak-3 only in rate of climb, surpassing the Yak-3 in maximum speed. On
                      The lower FW-190 D-9 was better due to its greater weight and not bad aerodynamics. The angular roll speed of the FW-190 D-9 was also higher than that of La-7 and Yak-3.
                      It follows that the FW-190 D-9, Me-109 G-14 / U5 and Me-109 K-4 at least were not inferior to either the Yak-3 or La-7. At Me-109 K-4, at the minimum height, the maximum speed was 605 km / h, and the rate of climb was 24,5 m / s. and if these German fighters on the Eastern Front at the end of the 1944-beginning of the 1945 of the year were missing something, it concerned a much larger number of German fighters, experienced pilots and aviation gasoline.
                      1. fighter angel
                        fighter angel 7 December 2017 10: 50 New
                        0
                        Yes, my dear, you are my NF68, you poke me with this tenacity worthy of a better application. What for? This is another plane. The engine is an in-line liquid shredder, instead of a 2-row "star", the airframe has undergone major changes. Let us compare the FV-190 of the extreme modifications “A”, if we are talking specifically about the Fokke-Wulf. And again, you give the numbers, once again proving that the “Dora” had superiority from a height of 5-6 km ... Why? The fact that the Dora high-altitude fighter is sorry, and without you it has long been known. And the fact that our Yak-3 and La-7 was inferior to 3,5–4,5 km Dora is something you yourself acknowledge. The fact that the maximum speed in aerial combat is far from the main indicator, I already explained this to you. Plus this is an indicative aerial battle between Dora and La-7, at the Air Force Research Institute. And if Lavochkin, after the second turn, “fell into the tail” of “Dore,” then there is no need to talk about the Yak-3 with its remarkable maneuverability. “Dore” can only sympathize here ... You understand one thing - our Air Force is in the main the masses "worked" just at low altitudes, from the ground - and up to 3-4 km. We didn’t climb above. And at these heights, our cars had complete superiority in air battles. And the sense of the fact that “Dora” had remarkable LTH at altitudes above 5.5 - 6 km. ??? Up to 3-4 km. "Lavochkin" and "Yakovlev" did it in full!
                    2. verner1967
                      verner1967 6 December 2017 20: 07 New
                      0
                      Quote: fighter angel
                      but from the beginning of 1944, he could not resist fighters.

                      and which fighter? The Yak-3 was baptized in June 1944. La-7, too, having appeared in the spring of 1944, massively went into the army only in the summer. Anyway, your statement
                      Quote: fighter angel
                      from the beginning of 1944, he could not resist fighters.
                      somehow it’s incorrect to call him helpless.
                      1. NF68
                        NF68 6 December 2017 21: 52 New
                        +2
                        Quote: verner1967
                        somehow it’s incorrect to call him helpless.


                        The maximum speeds of the FW-190 A-8 / FW-190 A-9 are approximately equal, for the FW-190 A-8 / FW-190 A-9 only the climb is worse and then if the FW-190 A-8 / FW-190 A- 9 begin to climb by gaining high speed, then when climbing due to inertia, the heavier FW-190 A-8 / FW-190 A-9 will gain altitude fairly quickly and the rate of climb will begin to decrease when these planes noticeably lose speed. On the decline on the Eastern Front, the Germans are out of competition. Due to the reduction, if a German pilot after a successful / unsuccessful attack without losing the gained speed begins to gently climb, then catching him will not be so simple.
                      2. fighter angel
                        fighter angel 7 December 2017 11: 04 New
                        0
                        And that besides the Yak-3 and La-7 others there were no fighters? Take La-5FN, the same Yak-9, and Yak-1B, the predecessor of the Yak-3 ... In the "dog dumps" at low altitudes, where mostly fighting took place on the Eastern Front, they proved their superiority over the PV- 190. With the right tactics of air combat, and if you did not "miss the first" FV-190 "attack from the side of the sun, then in the landfill" Foku "could be done with a high probability. Even yielding quantitatively. Read the fighter veterans.
    2. rubin6286
      rubin6286 29 November 2017 01: 57 New
      0
      Without Lend-Lease, the war would be even longer and more bloody. I can not judge now how it would end. To understand what the Lend-Lease was for the USSR, find on the Internet what was delivered on it, in what quantity, in comparison with what was in our country during this period. Without Lend-Lease, there wouldn’t be tanks, shells, gunpowder, shoes, clothes, and much more. According to my father, if it weren’t for Lend-Lease help, the population would starve to death.
      1. fighter angel
        fighter angel 29 November 2017 09: 27 New
        0
        A connoisseur, Lend-Lease is 7-10% of the amount that Soviet industry released into the war. The military equipment is frankly not of the best quality. This is to say the least. Deliveries on the principle: “Take God, that it’s worthless to ourselves ...” And in the opinion of both of my grandfathers, who fought, by the way and had military awards, it would not be critical if they could handle it themselves.
        1. rubin6286
          rubin6286 29 November 2017 12: 10 New
          0
          I also want to clarify that I didn’t “integrate” anything and indicated sources where you can read about the PPSh machine, and Drabkin did not write memoirs. Memoirs are written “on their own.” His books are more like interviews or systematic memoirs of veteran pilots who have survived to this day and the era of publicity, when you can say that. what they preferred to be silent about before.
          1. fighter angel
            fighter angel 29 November 2017 15: 07 New
            0
            Well, you specifically write: What "American model" was ripped off by "Suomi", and how did Shpagin "rip off" the PCA from "Suomi"? You claimed it, that’s the argument, give the facts! Let’s first deal with this, and then move on to Drabkin ...
        2. verner1967
          verner1967 1 December 2017 19: 05 New
          0
          Quote: fighter angel
          A connoisseur, Lend-Lease is 7-10% of the amount that Soviet industry released into the war.

          yes write right away 4% as the Soviet press trumpeted, but the thing is that we were supplied with Lend-Lease what we lacked or simply did not have rubin6286 He brought the figures, here there are percentages and look. Yes, they delivered us only 500 pieces of tanks, a trifle compared to tens of thousands of our tanks, but how many cobalt and molybdenum, aluminum and copper were delivered to us without which these tanks would not have been released, and rotary machines, which allowed increasing the turret for new T -34-85 or IS-2.
          Quote: fighter angel
          Deliveries on the principle: "God, take it yourself ..."

          again crooked, delivered what was requested. What did they put out of technology such that they had better?
          Quote: fighter angel
          And according to both of my grandfathers, who fought, by the way and had military awards, it wasn’t critical, they would have managed it themselves.

          But didn’t you ask your grandfathers what they ate and what they were wearing? When everything is there it is less noticeable, when it is not. All these charms were experienced by our rear. And it would be unknown if many of the survivors would have reached the victorious end if it had not been for Lend-Lease, including your relatives.
          1. fighter angel
            fighter angel 6 December 2017 12: 43 New
            0
            The figures given by rubin are not yet known from which source. It is entirely possible that from the Western, pro-American, and how they know how to "write history", we all know well. Moreover, the figures were cited by a person who believes that “Suomi” has been ripped off from the “American”, and does not say which one, and he also believes that Shpagin “tore off” his PCA from “Suomi”. Rubin does not give any facts and evidence. Therefore, personally, for example, I absolutely do not believe the figures given for Lend-Lease.
            I like you that in any case you are poked with your nose in Lend-Lease, and they say: "without this, your Victory in 1945 would not have happened" ??? This is your business. I think it’s completely different. There is a multivolume "The Great Patriotic War", published back in the USSR, and the numbers there are completely different. Sorry, but I’m used to believing more than all "pro-Western rewriters of history."
            1. verner1967
              verner1967 6 December 2017 20: 30 New
              0
              Quote: fighter angel
              he believes that Shpagin "tore off" his PCA from Suomi.

              this, of course, is stupidity. But the figures he cited are close to the truth. I read a book by Stettinius about the origin and development of LL, and at the end the reviewers gave figures and ratios. It describes in detail what, how much and why it was supplied. And already
              Quote: fighter angel
              multi-volume "The Great Patriotic War", published back in the USSR,

              generally not worth taking into account, the work written under the control of ideologists from the CPSU, where the notorious 4% of supplies prevail.
              Quote: fighter angel
              and they say: "without this, your Victory in 1945 would not have happened"

              but they are right, a victory would have been somewhere in 1946 and given more blood, would you like such a result?
              1. fighter angel
                fighter angel 7 December 2017 11: 11 New
                0
                But no, let’s together we will believe the “historians from the State Department”, who write on the money of the CIA and the Soros Fund ... By their own orders. So do you think it turns out? I don’t believe a single “mattress” figure. Scammers and liars.
              2. fighter angel
                fighter angel 8 December 2017 13: 05 New
                0
                verner1967, are you up to date with "overtone windows"? All that the Western "researchers of the Great Patriotic War" seek is to do so that we, and the next generations, see OUR HISTORY in the same way that THEY WANT THIS. So, as they, there in the west, and behind a large "puddle", IT IS NECESSARY. The main thing is to make you doubt, and then the thing is small ... Now, at this stage they want to make us think something like this: "Yes, we kind of won, but look, the enemy it seems that the technique was “better”, and the fighters they had were “more productive” ... And everyone, our allies needed us, “provided ...” And then, little by little, you yourself will not notice how they “roll out” "topic-" The results of the Great Patriotic War, but was there a Victory? Whose Victory is this? "Tell me, nonsense, and there will never be such a thing, but you are already halfway to this. Have you not understood yet?
                Just think and realize! And just something, it started with simple data, numbers provided by "our friends", "researchers-historians of the Great Patriotic War", seeking to "tell the truth" to tell you and me !!! I personally and in three letters do not need such "their truth"! And you yourself think ...
    3. iouris
      iouris 30 November 2017 17: 16 New
      0
      Quote: slaventi
      and already at 43 we seized dominance in the sky ....

      If. There are other authoritative opinions on this subject.
  9. NF68
    NF68 27 November 2017 16: 14 New
    +1
    These are the data on synthetic gasolines and other types of liquid fuel and oil produced in Germany:
    1th column years of WWII,
    2-th column of data on oil produced in thousands of tons with a breakdown by years,
    3-th column data on the produced synthetic liquid crowd in thousands of tons,
    4-th column the ratio of the amount of synthetic liquid toll produced to the oil produced.

    Aufkommen an Mineralöl in den Jahren 1939 – 1944 (in 1000 t)
    Jahr insgesamt
    (geschätzt) davon synth.
    Produktion in%
    1939 8.200 2.200 27
    1940 7.600 3.348 44
    1941 10.000 4.116 41
    1942 9.500 4.920 52
    1943 11.300 5.748 51
    1944 6.830 3.830 56

    Dietrich Eichholtz: Geschichte der Deutschen Kriegswirtschaft. Akademie-Verlag, Berlin 1985, Band 2, S. 354.


    The United States, Great Britain and the USSR during the same years produced / produced about 30 times more liquid crowds than their opponents. These data are not difficult to find on the Internet.
    1. rubin6286
      rubin6286 28 November 2017 01: 15 New
      0
      It seems that no one disputes the fact that the Germans from the 1943 year experienced difficulties with fuel.
      1. NF68
        NF68 28 November 2017 17: 21 New
        +1
        Quote: rubin6286
        It seems that no one disputes the fact that the Germans from the 1943 year experienced difficulties with fuel.


        They had these problems from the very beginning of WWII. And the Germans did not have time to solve the problems with the production of isooctane for the production of high-octane aviation gasoline until the end of WWII. They had a dozen and a half low-power plants producing isooctane, but this was a drop in the bucket. And they did not manage to complete the 2 large plants for the production of isooctane in Silesia before the end of WWII in Europe.
        1. rubin6286
          rubin6286 29 November 2017 01: 46 New
          0
          So what? The country was waging a victorious war in Europe, counting on a “blitzkrieg” and it had enough of its own capacities for the production of fuel and what was supplied from enslaved countries and satellites (Romania, Hungary, Italy, etc.). They counted everything, except that in the East they are dealing with a new type of state superior to the Reich in human and industrial resources and peoples united by a single ideology and capable of self-sacrifice.
  10. rubin6286
    rubin6286 28 November 2017 00: 46 New
    0
    Specialized night barrage fighters equipped with radar and modern weapons at that time were one of the links in the multilevel air defense system of Germany, which was described in most detail by M. Zefirov in the book “Asy of the Luftwaffe. Night fighters”.

    One of them was Heinkel -219 Eagle Owl. There is a fairly detailed monograph by Yu. Borisov, “Night Heinkel-219 fighter Uhu” M.Exprint 2005. The author of the article on the VO website did not write anything new.

    Compared with the Me-110 G-4 and the Junkers-88 G6 already available in the Luftwaffe, the Heinkel-219 Filin had a number of significant advantages that increased its effectiveness, but absolutely did not exceed them. Airborne radars, night sights, weapons, were the same as those that stood on the Messrschmitt and the Junkers, and therefore the tactical methods of fighting enemy aircraft at night did not undergo significant changes. The Schragee Music dorsal installation slightly expanded the capabilities of the machine, but only until steps were taken to protect the lower hemisphere in enemy aircraft.

    The first Henkel-219 was officially adopted in October 1943. A total of 26 vehicles were received by the end of the year. In the future, it was decided to produce about 50 cars of this type per year. He was the only night fighter capable of intercepting the English Mosquito high-speed bombers.

    Like any aircraft that appeared during the war years, the Xe-219 remained "raw" for a long time. DB-603 engines were not reliable and had a low resource. The last combat sorties pilots of these machines made in April 1945.
  11. DimerVladimer
    DimerVladimer 29 November 2017 13: 39 New
    0
    An uninformative article - there is so much written and translated about Filin.
    Nothing new in the article, compilation of known facts.
  12. CentDo
    CentDo 29 November 2017 17: 28 New
    0
    NF68,
    You do not even lie about the serial D-11. 17 cars in your series called?
    Tashki in no way related to the main German fighters. They were built just nothing.
  13. Dekabrev
    Dekabrev 29 November 2017 22: 58 New
    0
    The Germans simply could not afford a large number of simple equipment. For this they would not have had enough materials, no gas, no pilots. In general, their whole war is a complete adventure. You can’t rush at all indiscriminately and not scoop up.
    1. iouris
      iouris 30 November 2017 17: 20 New
      0
      Quote: Dekabrev
      In general, their whole war is a complete adventure.

      Someone controlled them, forced them to fight in a hopeless situation, giving a ghostly chance. This chance was a successful blitzkrieg against the USSR. There is information that the landing of the U.S. Army in Europe was scheduled for 1944 back in 1940, which is why Hess flew to negotiations in May 1940. And Stalin probably also knew about this. Another thing is that at this time the United States has not yet decided who should be considered an adversary as an aggressor and who is considered an ally. Knowing the strength of enemy propaganda, Stalin did everything in his power to uniquely become a victim of aggression.
  14. NF68
    NF68 3 December 2017 20: 37 New
    +1
    Quote: verner1967
    Quote: NF68
    Other sleeps with Merlin at low altitudes were worse than La-7 and Yak-3.

    well, others were asleep and also released earlier, but we compare fighters of the same time, right?


    All right. But in the 1944 year MK.16 began to be released in many ways similar to MK.9, but MK. 16 were high-altitude with their respective engines with two-stage superchargers. Unlike the Germans, the British did not use water-methanol forcing, and therefore at MK.16 at low altitude the engine power did not allow to develop a sufficiently high speed. At the expense of later MK.18-24 with Griffons I do not know. Nevertheless, these engines were much more powerful than the Merlins and it is possible that the MK.18-24 at high altitudes developed high speed.
  15. NF68
    NF68 3 December 2017 20: 40 New
    +1
    verner1967Quote: verner1967
    Quote: NF68
    Other sleeps with Merlin at low altitudes were worse than La-7 and Yak-3.
    well, others were asleep and also released earlier, but we compare fighters of the same time, right?
    All right. But in the 1944 year MK.16 began to be released in many ways similar to MK.9, but MK. 16 were high-altitude with their respective engines with two-stage superchargers. Unlike the Germans, the British did not use water-methanol forcing, and therefore at MK.16 at low altitude the engine power did not allow to develop a sufficiently high speed. At the expense of later MK.18-24 with Griffons I do not know. Nevertheless, these engines were much more powerful than the Merlins and it is possible that the MK.18-24 at high altitudes developed high speed.
  16. fighter angel
    fighter angel 7 December 2017 12: 51 New
    0
    NF68,

    Quote - "... The Germans are out of competition on the decline on the Eastern Front. Due to the decline, if a German pilot after a successful / unsuccessful attack without losing the gained speed starts gently gaining height, then catching him will not be so easy ...."

    Well this, dear, is still a pitchfork on the water. The Germans were out of competition not on the decline, as you write, but on the DIVE! But in order to dive, you need a reserve of height, but at low altitudes of the Eastern Front such a reserve often did not exist. And after a successful / unsuccessful attack, which you just don’t have to “miss”, if our fighter has a speed reserve, and an experienced fighter pilot always has one (here we recall Boris Safonov’s school), it’s enough to make a combat turn with a set, and in in the vast majority of cases ours will be higher than the Fock. This is already a more advantageous position, giving an advantage to our fighter ... And then, according to the situation.
  17. NF68
    NF68 7 December 2017 17: 14 New
    +2
    Yes, my dear you are my NF68, you poke me with this tenacity worthy of a better application. What for? This is another plane. The engine is an in-line liquid cooler, instead of the 2's in-line "star", the airframe has undergone major changes. Let us compare exactly the FV-190 of the extreme modifications "A", if we are talking specifically about the "Fock-Wolfe".


    So compare the FW-190 A-3-A8 with those who destroyed the USSR that were produced before the Red Army Air Force Yak-3 and La-7, and compare the newest Yak-1944 and La-3 in the 7 with the latest FW-190 D9. If we are talking specifically about them, then we need to compare peers with hangers. FW-190 D9 were fighters designed for medium heights. Serial among the high-altitude fighter aircraft of the FW-190 D series were only 17 pieces FW-190 D-11 and 2 D13.

    FW-190 D with water-methanol boosting at a minimum height develops 612 km / h-like La-7. In terms of measure, the altitude of the speed of both aircraft increases and the FW-190 D at an altitude of 4700-4800 meters develops 700-705 km / h. The speed of La-7 at these altitudes does not exceed the speed of FW-190 D-9 as SERIAL, those non-standards of La-7 at an altitude of about 6000 meters develop a maximum speed of 658-661 km / h, and FW-190 D-9 more altitude-6600 meters develop 685 km / h. The advantage in height gives ANY airplane the opportunity to take the initiative, since in this case you can quickly drop / sip to attack the enemy aircraft and without getting involved in the battle on horizontal lines again gain altitude and take a convenient position for attack. It was precisely because of this that the Red Army Air Force was forced to echelon its fighter in height because it was even more difficult to intercept the rapidly declining German fighters.

    As for the tests of the FW-190 D-9 at the RKKA Air Force Research Institute, these tests were carried out WITHOUT USING the water-methane boost which gave the FW-190 D-9 at altitudes from the minimum and to 5000 meters additional 490 hp. If you provide the performance characteristics of the Yak-3 and La-7 on the afterburner, then compare the performance characteristics of the Yak-3 and La-7 with the FW-190 D-9 on the afterburner and, accordingly, compare the performance characteristics of the Yak-3 and La-7 on FW -190 D-9 without afterburner. At a minimum altitude, the Yak-3 had a speed of not more than 567-570 km / h - FW-190 D-9 developed even 576 km / h without afterburning.

    FW-190D at the Air Force Research Institute. The war had already ended when German piston planes used by the Nazis in the final period of the fighting arrived for testing. First of all, our engineers studied the FW 190D-9 (or the "long-nosed Dora"). The D — 9 model fighter replaced the well-known air-cooled BMW 80ID engine with a Jumo 21 liquid cooling engine. This event slightly improved the aerodynamics of the propeller group and increased the length of the aircraft by 80 cm. A more powerful engine promised the superiority of the new machine in speed and climb over the FW 190A. Our country knew about the opposite way of modifying some fighters: by replacing the liquid-cooled motor with a more powerful one, cooled by oil and air flow (LaGG-3 -> La-5; Ki 61-> Ki 100). How much has the ratio of the main flight data of the German "long-nosed fokker" and the best serial fighter aircraft of the Red Army changed? According to leading specialists of the Air Force Research Institute, the modified FW 190D-9 No. 210251 could not compete on equal and low levels with the domestic Yak-3, Yak-9U, La-7. The Focke-Wulf was inferior to them in speed at ground speed by at least 24 km / h, and by 5000 m by more than 10 km / h. Also not in favor of the German fighter was a comparison of horizontal and vertical maneuverability.
    The greatest interest for the domestic industry was caused by the successful layout of motor units and propeller equipment, the highest maximum permissible oil temperature at the engine inlet (130 ° C), the successful design of an automatic coolant temperature controller, and wooden blades with high efficiency. that during the tests from 11 to 26 on May 1945, all units of the special equipment of the German aircraft worked flawlessly. Of great benefit was the study of the special unit of the FUG-16ZY radio station, which made it possible to use the receiver of this station in the radio navigation system.
    A well-developed fire control system was supplemented by high quality bulletproof glass of the cockpit lantern and a successful sight design. Unlike some of our vehicles with powerful weapons, at the same time firing from all firing points, the aiming at the target was not lost, and the recoil force of the weapon was almost not felt by the pilot. It was possible to shoot separately from guns and machine guns. Extensive electrification of equipment simplified the work of the pilot.
    The FW 190D-9 fighter was used for training aerial combat with La-7, which showed the complete advantage of the domestic machine. Pilots of the institute, engineer-lieutenant colonel A.G. Kochetkov, lieutenant colonels A.G. Proshakov and V.I. -190. Having started the “battle” on the opposite courses, the Soviet fighter stepped into the tail of the “German” after the third turn or the second combat turn. However, it should be noted that the “battles” were conducted without the use of an emergency mode of operation of the engine with the injection of water-methanol mixture.

    http://www.airpages.ru/lw/fw190d.shtml

    And here is the TTX FW-190 A-8 / FW-190 A-9, various options FW-190 D-9, FW-190 D-12, Ta-152 C and Ta-152 N

    1. fighter angel
      fighter angel 8 December 2017 10: 20 New
      0
      I quote you, NF68: ".... The advantage in height gives ANY airplane the opportunity to take the initiative, since in this case you can quickly drop / sip to attack the enemy aircraft and without getting involved in the battle on horizontal lines again gain altitude and take a convenient position for attack. It is precisely because of this that the Red Army Air Force was forced to echelon its fighter in height because it was even more difficult to intercept the rapidly declining German fighters ... "

      And here again, with all due respect to you, as an expert on the subject of piston engines, I have to note that you are, to put it mildly, not competent in the tactics of conducting air combat and are not particularly versed. “Dura” will be able to dive, having dispersed to 600-700 km / h, we take the average gradation, BUT! Our fighter pilot was in 1944, when the Dora appeared, already quite experienced. The first rule of the fighter is the constant control of airspace, "turn the head 360 degrees", in other words. Attack "Fools" in 95% of cases was noticed by our fighters. And now, having noticed the attack in time, it is enough for our pilot to make a horizontal U-turn with a roll - a standard defensive maneuver. This is called a “U-turn with a glide to the wing." "Dora", diving at the speed indicated above, is PRACTICALLY UNCOVERABLE, only "swing-UP / DOWN", and then, as long as there is a margin of speed and height. (As the practice of air combat, 2-3 times "Dora "Enough. And then all - NO ADVANTAGES! Either get involved in a maneuverable aerial combat at low altitude, where the" Dora "has no advantages, or- Dump, if it’s not too late, and they didn’t sit on its tail ...) Respond to the maneuver of our fighter, at a high dive speed, “Dora” WILL NOT. In the best case, it can make a small roll in the given direction. WELL, AND YOU EVALUATE THE PERFORMANCE OF SUCH ATTACK. Well, and how do you like the big deal from the supposedly “advantages of Dora,” about which you all repeat with enviable stubbornness?
      1. fighter angel
        fighter angel 8 December 2017 11: 58 New
        0
        Dear NF68, knowledge of theory, performance characteristics and performance characteristics is wonderful and worthy of respect. But PRACTICE IS PRACTICE! This is REALITY, and often there are very large differences with theory. You’ll get acquainted, even for general concepts, with the tactics of fighter aircraft, I don’t know how now, before you could even find some fragments of the previous Combat Manual of the IA on the Internet ... Read fighter pilots who have gone through military operations ... and don’t only the Great Patriotic War, but also a series of "local wars and conflicts" ... Numbers, numbers, and reality, reality.
        1. NF68
          NF68 8 December 2017 16: 24 New
          +3
          Quote: fighter angel
          Dear NF68, knowledge of theory, performance characteristics and performance characteristics is wonderful and worthy of respect. But PRACTICE IS PRACTICE! This is REALITY, and often there are very large differences with theory. You’ll get acquainted, even for general concepts, with the tactics of fighter aircraft, I don’t know how now, before you could even find some fragments of the previous Combat Manual of the IA on the Internet ... Read fighter pilots who have gone through military operations ... and don’t only the Great Patriotic War, but also a series of "local wars and conflicts" ... Numbers, numbers, and reality, reality.


          Very, very much has been written about this practice, and it is practice that confirms that toria without practice is far from always close to the real state of affairs.
      2. NF68
        NF68 8 December 2017 16: 23 New
        +3
        “Dura” will be able to spike, having dispersed to 600-700 km / h, we take the average gradation, BUT! Our fighter pilot was in 1944, when the Dora appeared, already quite experienced.


        Dora 9 in horizontal flight developed to 700-705 km / h, and in diving to about 1000 km / h.

        The first rule of the fighter is the constant control of airspace, "turn your head at 360 degrees", in other words.


        No matter how you turn your head, but still many sectors around the aircraft remain closed to the pilot's fuselage and wings of a proprietary aircraft. In addition to this, cloud cover also needs to be taken into account.

        "Dora", diving at the speed indicated above, is PRACTICALLY UNREADABLE,


        Just all without exception, the FW-190 A and FW-190 D and at high flight speeds were not poorly controlled, and their angular roll speed was higher than that of any American, English or Soviet fighter. For FW-190 V1, this speed was equal to 162 degrees / sec. In serial A-series aircraft, the angular roll speed was slightly lower, but still much higher. To turn to the right or to the left, the plane had to first change position relative to its longitudinal axis — in other words, to turn around with respect to the longitudinal axis. And only then it was possible to make a turn and therefore it was far from always possible to get away from the FW190 attack by sliding on the wing. In this regard, the Me-109 had a less robust construction and were worse able to control at high speeds.

        And then all- NO ADVANTAGES! Either get involved in a maneuverable aerial combat at low altitude, where the “Dora” has no advantages, or- Dump, if it’s not too late, and they didn’t sit on its tail ..


        I have already heard this from you more than once, but you still haven’t explained how Dora has the afterburner at minimum height equal to La-7 speed and greater than 35-40 km / h than the Yak-3 doesn’t have any advantages? Yes, and why dora's bulb will always be kept at a minimum height?
        1. fighter angel
          fighter angel 8 December 2017 17: 23 New
          0
          No, dear, you are greatly mistaken about the Dora’s maneuverability in diving at speeds of about 650-700 km / h. The first samples of FV-190 had a high angular roll speed of about 160 degrees per second. But THIS IS ON A HORIZONTAL FLIGHT, AND AT A CRUISER SPEED! Now calculate the effectiveness of the steering surfaces in PICKING, AND WITH A SUPERCRITICAL FOR ANY PISTON PLANE AT A SPEED OF ORDER OF 700 km / h! Feel the difference! Horizontal flight, speed of about 400-500 km / h and DIVE, at a speed of 700 km / h and MORE! The efficiency of the rudders here is close to zero, did you hear anything about the "drawdown" at the conclusion of the dive? How much did “Dura” get out of the peak, you know? And how many could not go out and "decomposed"? And you wouldn’t be dishonored, honestly, - "turn around on the longitudinal axis" ... Eeeeeh, "connoisseur" you are ours, does this mean ??? You already explain, please! While the "Dora" rushing at least 700 km / h, I'm not talking about the higher speeds that you voiced here, the maneuver will begin, our fighter will be able to do even in the worst situation, it’s late, for example, with the detection of an attack, half turn, this is at least. And even in this case - HE ALREADY FULLY EXITS THE PILOT VISIBILITY SECTOR "Dora"! And “Dore”, not only that its pilot has already lost the target, it’s necessary to give a roll, and some of which is already unknown, the target has gone out of sight, and in addition, you also have to take the pen over yourself in order to somehow “catch” "at least a bend element. The effectiveness of the control surfaces at these speeds is minimal; this is still mildly said. And at this time the enemy ends the turn, and may well be behind for a split second ... If the Dora continues to dive, it remains for our pilot to give the "fullest" gas. And he will have about 0.5-1. Sec. For an ace, this is more than enough.
          Write about the sectors of the review of our aircraft- WITH A DIPLASHING LAMP OVERVIEW OF THE TOP HEMISPHERE- PRACTICALLY 100%, and the "drops" were from the 43rd on all our machines!

          You write about the clouds.
          Clouds, this is a double-edged sword - through dense layered or stratocumulus, the pilot of "Dora" also will not be able to make out our cars below.
          Doubtful argument.

          Dear NF68, see more high-speed characteristics of fighters! There are such charts - compare the data on FV-190, "Dore", and our fighters. Up to 4 km THERE IS NO ADVANTAGE OF “DORA” IN SPEED FROM THE WORDS “ABSOLUTELY”.
          1. NF68
            NF68 8 December 2017 21: 11 New
            +2
            Here are some data on the flight speed of the 1944-1945 fighters.



            But the data on the speed characteristics of Ta-152 and FW-190 a / 190 D.



            And this is the data for FW-190 D-9:



            And this is the rate of climb:



            And here are some other data from the memories of the pilots:

            http://arsenal-info.ru/b/book/3570337202/18
            1. fighter angel
              fighter angel 9 December 2017 13: 49 New
              0
              Well, fine- ANALYZE THE SCHEDULE! Yak-3 and FV-190D-9 at face value- YAK'S ADVANTAGE, LA-7 and FV-190D-9 - also ADVANTAGE OF THE STAFF. And I'll tell you even more - if you look at the schedule for the Yak-7B, Yak-1B, Yak-9 and FV-190A-4, A-5, then you will see the advantage of Soviet cars at low altitudes. And also for the ergonomics of the cabs, the placement of instruments and the ease of viewing. “Foki” has a view from the cockpit - only forward and up, side to top and that’s all ... From the back - close to the back, the armored back-view is not back. And in front, due to an unsuccessfully placed dashboard, right next to the pilot, there is no forward and left-side view, left-right! REVIEW ZERO! And at a dive, at high speeds, when the steering surfaces react with a big delay and with low efficiency, the pilot also gets a bad view !!! The effectiveness of such an attack is close to zero! An important note about the angular roll speed: the Dora had a longer fuselage and was heavier than the FV-190A-5, A-8. Accordingly, she did not show such a turn speed! And one more thing: after doing the “barrel”, any of the PV-190 needed about 1-2 seconds. to come to a normal position, align with the roll and pitch. Without this stabilization, accurate and effective fire is impossible. It is these seconds that often become decisive in air battles.
              1. NF68
                NF68 10 December 2017 18: 50 New
                +2
                Quote: fighter angel
                Well, fine- ANALYZE THE SCHEDULE! Yak-3 and FV-190D-9 at face value- YAK'S ADVANTAGE, LA-7 and FV-190D-9 - also ADVANTAGE OF THE STAFF. And I'll tell you even more - if you look at the schedule for the Yak-7B, Yak-1B, Yak-9 and FV-190A-4, A-5, then you will see the advantage of Soviet cars at low altitudes. And also for the ergonomics of the cabs, the placement of instruments and the ease of viewing. “Foki” has a view from the cockpit - only forward and up, side to top and that’s all ... From the back - close to the back, the armored back-view is not back. And in front, due to an unsuccessfully placed dashboard, right next to the pilot, there is no forward and left-side view, left-right! REVIEW ZERO! And at a dive, at high speeds, when the steering surfaces react with a big delay and with low efficiency, the pilot also gets a bad view !!! The effectiveness of such an attack is close to zero! An important note about the angular roll speed: the Dora had a longer fuselage and was heavier than the FV-190A-5, A-8. Accordingly, she did not show such a turn speed! And one more thing: after doing the “barrel”, any of the PV-190 needed about 1-2 seconds. to come to a normal position, align with the roll and pitch. Without this stabilization, accurate and effective fire is impossible. It is these seconds that often become decisive in air battles.


                The real battles on the Soviet-German front were noticeably different from the "fights" at the testing institute. German pilots did not engage in maneuver battles in either the vertical or horizontal plane. Their fighters sought a surprise attack to bring down a Soviet aircraft, and then went into the clouds or on their territory. Attack aircraft also unexpectedly rained down on our ground forces. It was rare to intercept both those and others. Special tests conducted at the Air Force Research Institute were aimed at developing techniques and methods for dealing with the Focke-Wulf attack aircraft. They involved trophy FW 190A-8 No. 682011 and the "lightweight" FW 190A-8 No. 580967, to which the most modern fighters of the Red Army Air Force flew: Yak-3. Yak-9U and La-7.
                The "battles" showed that for a successful fight against low-flying German aircraft it is necessary to develop new tactics. After all, most often the Focke-Wulfs approached at low altitudes and left with a shaving flight at maximum speeds. In these conditions, it turned out to be difficult to detect the attack in a timely manner, and the pursuit was complicated, since the matte gray color hid the German car against the background of the terrain. In addition, the FW 190 pilots included an engine boost device at low altitudes. The testers determined that in this case, the Fokke-Wulfs reached the 582 km / h speed near the ground, that is, neither the Yak-3 (the plane available at the Air Force Research Institute developed the speed of 567 km / h), nor the Yak- 9Y (575 km / h). Only La-7 in the afterburner accelerated to 612 km / h, but the speed margin was not enough to quickly reduce the distance between two aircraft to the distance of aimed fire.
                Based on the test results, the Institute’s management issued recommendations: it is necessary to echelon our fighter patrols in altitude. In this case, the task of the pilots of the upper tier would be to disrupt the bombing, as well as to attack the cover fighters accompanying the attack aircraft, and the attack aircraft themselves would most likely be able to intercept the lower patrol cars, which had the ability to disperse on a gentle dive.

                http://www.airpages.ru/lw/fw190a7.shtml

                The Fw 190D-9 fighter was tested in training aerial combat with La-7. The battle showed the advantage of the domestic car. Pilots of the institute lieutenant colonel engineer A.G. Kochetkov, lieutenant colonels A.G. Proshakov and V.I. 190A-8. Having started the “battle” on the opposite courses, the Soviet fighter stepped into the tail of the “German” after the third turn or the second combat turn. However, it should be noted that the "training battles" event is more demonstrational and does not always take into account the realities of the combat situation. In addition, they were carried out without the emergency operation of the Fw 190D motor (with the injection of a water-methanol mixture).


                The greatest interest for the domestic industry was caused by the successful layout of motor units and propeller equipment, the highest maximum permissible oil temperature at the engine inlet (130 ° C), the successful design of an automatic coolant temperature controller, and wooden blades with high efficiency. that during the tests from 11 to 26 on May 1945, all units of the special equipment of the German aircraft worked flawlessly. Of great benefit was the study of the special unit of the FUG-16ZY radio station, which made it possible to use the receiver of this station in the radio navigation system.
                A well-developed fire control system was supplemented by high quality bulletproof glass of the cockpit lantern and a successful sight design. Unlike some of our vehicles with powerful weapons, at the same time firing from all firing points, the aiming at the target was not lost, and the recoil force of the weapon was almost not felt by the pilot. It was possible to shoot separately from guns and machine guns. Extensive electrification of equipment simplified the work of the pilot.

                http://www.airpages.ru/lw/fw190d.shtml
                1. fighter angel
                  fighter angel 11 December 2017 11: 35 New
                  0
                  Quoting NF68: “.... The real battles on the Soviet-German front were noticeably different from the“ fights ”at the testing institute. The German pilots did not engage in maneuver battles in either the vertical or horizontal plane. Their fighters tried to shoot down a Soviet plane with a surprise attack, and then went into the clouds or into their territory ... "
                  Who told you such nonsense? Didn’t they come right at all? The order was forbidding, and for failure to execute the shooting on the spot?
                  Do not talk nonsense. Just as there were "dog dumps" at the beginning of the war - Emily against I-16 and I-153, so at the end of the war - La-7 and Yak-3 against "Koenig" and later "FV-190". You are completely unfamiliar with the air war on the Eastern Front. Read, study the primary sources- memoirs of participants, archival documents, reports, debriefing, battle patterns ... WERE "DOG DUMP", AND THEY WERE TO THE END OF THE WAR!
                  Finally, turn to the historians of aviation - Yakubovich, Khazanov, Medved, Rasstrenin, Maslov, Kotelnikov, Bakursky and others ... Read what smart people write. And they write just the same on the basis of ACTUAL AND ARCHIVE MATERIAL.
                  This is for you, not a forum on the internet with incomprehensible authorships and sources of information.
                  Again you are with your injection of water methanol ...
                  You, as I look, have moved from “attacks from above, from diving, at a speed of more than 700 km / h” to the fact that I quote: “... After all, most often the“ Focke-Wulfs ”approached at low altitudes and left with a shaving flight at maximum speeds ... " You will decide at last, how are your “chances” there - you attacked, from above or from small ??? And this is all from ignorance! Ignorance of tactics, the basics of air combat and the situation at the front at that time.
                  Let's go back to the injection - 10 minutes of operation, the engine resource is “killed" faster than in normal mode, and a normal pilot WITHOUT EXTREME REQUIREMENTS WILL NOT TURN ON IT! THIS IS EXTREME ENGINE OPERATION. But you, it turns out that all the pilots, almost all flew on it, including on business and without work every 5-7 minutes. Bullshit, respected, absolute bullshit. COMPARE SPEEDS IN USUAL MODES!
                  About the glasses in the cockpit of fighter jets. In the USSR, in 1943, they learned how to make curved glass windows that do not distort image quality. But in the "third Reich" this could not be done. From here - drop-shaped lanterns for our cars, and the angular, increasing resistance, for the Germans. This is also a fact.
                  1. fighter angel
                    fighter angel 11 December 2017 13: 55 New
                    0
                    I quote NF68: "... According to the test results, the institute’s management made recommendations: it is necessary to separate our fighters in altitude patrols. In this case, the task of the upper tier pilots would be to disrupt the bombing, as well as to attack the cover fighters accompanying the attack aircraft, and the attack aircraft themselves most likely they could intercept the lower patrol cars, which had the opportunity to accelerate on a gentle dive ... "

                    This technique is called "separation by heights", and not your "patrols" there !!! And so that you know - it has been used since the spring of 1943. Battle of the Kuban, Pokryshkinskaya "Kuban whatnot." Minus to you and your "source." Even the terminology is erroneous, not to mention the rest.
          2. Dalailama
            Dalailama 3 January 2018 03: 20 New
            0
            Are you sure that those FW-190s that were handed over were in the version of a fighter and not an attack aircraft? After the war, this aircraft then served well in the Baltic Fleet. Speed ​​684 at the ground and 710 at altitude. In a dive, the FW-190 went beyond 1000 and was well-controlled. All this was tested by combatant pilots.
            The “Kuban whatnot” is more complicated and not exactly what was in the directions. With its help, having the superiority in number, they knocked out most of the German aces over Kuban, after which the training class and combat effectiveness of German pilots began to fall, but not the quality and performance characteristics of their aircraft.