Military Review

Tanks in the city? Will American Javelins Dance Lezginka ...

98
It became known yesterday that the US Department of State approved the implementation of Javelin anti-tank missile systems in agreement with Georgia. The acquisition cost of this document, which has been actively discussed between Tbilisi and Washington recently, is about 75 million dollars. The Georgian army can receive dozens of launchers and missiles for them with these funds. The high cost of the “kit” is due to the fact that it must also include American instructors who will conduct a kind of educational program for Georgian “warriors” within a few weeks of a special course.


Tanks in the city? Will American Javelins Dance Lezginka ...


In the United States, it is noted that the Congress is ready to give the go-ahead for sending anti-tank missile systems to Georgia in order to “help” the Georgian army to continue along the path of Euro-Atlantic integration.

In this regard, there are at least two questions. First question: why did Georgia need Javelin ATGMs? Question two: is NATO ready to go far in terms of real integration of the Georgian state into its membership?

It is worth starting, perhaps, with the second question.

NATO, “having expanded” to the point that almost all of Eastern Europe was caught up under the structures of the western military bloc, today rests not only on the borders of Russia, but also in the letter of its own charter. And this statute says that the North Atlantic Alliance, which positions itself not only as a military association, but also as a political union, cannot accept countries with territorial issues. Georgia, as is well known, has such questions: official Tbilisi continues to consider the territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia as its own, despite the fact that these states have not only declared their sovereignty, but are recognized sovereign powers by a number of UN member countries. Russia, including.

In any other scenario, Georgia would already be in NATO. But at the time, he foiled Saakashvili, who, being inspired by verbal support from overseas, decided to play Napoleon. The outcome of that Bonapartism is also well known - by chewing a tie and crawling along dusty roads with the noise of the engines of a Russian combat aircraft. And now Georgia has two options: either forget about Abkhazia and South Ossetia, or forget about NATO. However, this alternative is seen in Georgia itself by those who can be classified as sober-minded politicians. But the situation is quite different from overseas.

Given that the NATO charter, like any code written by “partners,” is carried out solely in the interests of the main player, this very player can quite well with the charter and experiment. As an extreme (radical) option is to start accepting new “comrades” in NATO, even in parts, at the “soup set” level. If only to feed the NATO machine, satisfying its growing hunger with revenues from the budgets of newtonovtsy and new territories and waters under the next military bases.

But nevertheless, this is precisely what is radical ... And overseas partners are, for the most part, hard-nosed conservatives, which means that they will work out the training manual read to the holes on how to expand the military bloc in full. It is on the basis of this concept that one can proceed to answer the first, previously posed question. The question is, I recall, "why does Georgia need Javelins?"

So the fact of the matter is that Georgia, as it were to put it mildly, they are not really needed. Indeed, in Georgia there are enough those who remember very well how the valiant “guards” threw almost brand new American “Hammers” and other American “utensils” right on the roads at the moment when they were opposed by a full-fledged force - which had to come out after the provocation of Mishiko regarding peacekeepers. Georgia remembers, Georgia knows ... Especially since no "tanks in the city of Tbilisi, as they say, it doesn’t feel, and obviously it would not want to climb on the rampage itself. But who then asks them? ..

If Georgia is “not very” needed, then those who, with the hands of the Georgian military, once again intend to arrange a “small victorious war” to collect and glue the territories for their admission to NATO, are not at least united, but cumulatively. It turns out - it will not work, this is not so important for the United States. Even if it does not work out, the next "war" next to Russia, in the Caucasus direction, where hundreds of ISIS terrorists (* banned in the Russian Federation) so willingly try to return from Syria and Iraq, the United States definitely will not hurt. For any source of instability at the borders of the Russian Federation is already the embodiment of the main goals of the North Atlantic military bloc, in which Russia is now openly called the main enemy.

Right there, at the same time, strategists from the other side of the Atlantic are going to kill another hare: to probe Georgia on the subject of transit of territory for distilling lethal weapons to Ukraine. Although, by and large, Georgia has already been probed - it was distilled through it to Ukraine (and through Ukraine to Georgia, by the way, too - in some cases) not only weapon, but also specialists in color revolutions, including Saakashvili mentioned more than once. The Georgian snipers, who, as Italian journalists found out, took the most direct part in the shooting of people on the Kiev Maidan under stormy ovations of Nuland, Biden and McCain, were also distilled.

In general, if the “Javelins” suddenly come up somewhere in the area of ​​Volnovakhi, Avdiivka or the Village of Lugansk near the Ukrainian “avatar-cyborgs”, then it is unlikely that anyone will be seriously surprised. Moreover, they may well emerge in the very near future, because we are not the only ones monitoring the situation in the LC. The situation is actively "monitored" and "great friends of Donbass." And this situation, you forgive me generously, frankly carries shit. If the Ukrainian “cavalry” really decides to jump across the line of demarcation - will the original unity be found in the republic (at least in the LPR), which, at a minimum, will drive these “gray apples” back to the stall? So far, according to reports, they are already trying to drive each other to the joy of “friends of Donbass” from Kiev and Washington in a stall in the republic.

Guys, give the same reason ...
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  1. Wolka
    Wolka 22 November 2017 16: 06 New
    +7
    Yes, do not go to the fortune-teller fortuneteller, the javelins in Ukraine will appear in the near future ...
    1. MoJloT
      MoJloT 22 November 2017 16: 51 New
      +3
      They mess with the mediator, because they still position themselves as a possible peacemaker. Not a specialist, but it seems that the Javelins can turn the tide if they are in the hands of American soldiers and then with the support of art and aviation. And so Khokhlama hides behind the javelins like a donkey behind a carrot, this is the main force of the javelins
      1. Vasilenko Vladimir
        Vasilenko Vladimir 22 November 2017 19: 27 New
        +1
        Quote: MoJloT
        Not a specialist, but it seems that the Javelins can turn the tide if they are in the hands of American soldiers

        as far as Ukraine was written it has its own complex
        1. sgrabik
          sgrabik 22 November 2017 20: 30 New
          0
          Yes, this is the ATGM of Stugna, but it is significantly inferior to Javelin in almost all respects and most importantly, he cannot attack the target from above.
          1. dubovitskiy.1947
            dubovitskiy.1947 23 November 2017 01: 01 New
            +5
            Quote: sgrabik
            Yes, this is the ATGM of Stugna, but it is significantly inferior to Javelin in almost all respects and most importantly, he cannot attack the target from above.

            Javelin has an infrared target guidance, aiming and tracking system, which makes it useless for destroying armored vehicles with the engine off, single towed guns that didn’t shoot, and, therefore, cold, invisible behind thermal screens, and not able to hit DOTS and BOTTLES. In addition, before the shot, the javelin must be kept in the refrigerator so that its matrix is ​​colder than the environment.
            Javelin does not see the tank in the fire.
            And finally, this crap is the most expensive of all, its class and, in addition, has already been discontinued. The sale of these weapons prodigy now is an attempt to realize illiquid assets, to get rid of trash.
            1. Sanichsan
              Sanichsan 23 November 2017 18: 00 New
              +2
              Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
              Javelin has an infrared target guidance, aiming and tracking system, which makes it useless for destroying armored vehicles with the engine off

              sorry, but how is it?
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7-LUr1URew
              This is shooting at the firing range. there on the meshes it’s not that the engine is off, it is not there at all!
              the funny thing is that all that you have listed from goals that Javelin can’t hit, it’s just like goals that he can hit laughing I mean stationary objects. I have not seen a single video with the defeat of a moving object. only standing. also severe weather requirements and vryatli applicable in urban areas.
              but I completely agree with your final conclusion! hi
              1. dubovitskiy.1947
                dubovitskiy.1947 24 November 2017 01: 38 New
                0
                Quote: SanichSan
                Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
                Javelin has an infrared target guidance, aiming and tracking system, which makes it useless for destroying armored vehicles with the engine off

                sorry, but how is it?
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7-LUr1URew
                This is shooting at the firing range. there on the meshes it’s not that the engine is off, it is not there at all!
                the funny thing is that all that you have listed from goals that Javelin can’t hit, it’s just like goals that he can hit laughing I mean stationary objects. I have not seen a single video with the defeat of a moving object. only standing. also severe weather requirements and vryatli applicable in urban areas.
                but I completely agree with your final conclusion! hi

                Due to its properties, Javelin simply cannot see a target that has the same temperature as nearby objects. No need to ask questions. Think and try to answer them. There will be more good. If you are dead and cold, no heat-sensitive devices will detect you. I hope I clearly explained to you.
                1. Sanichsan
                  Sanichsan 24 November 2017 16: 52 New
                  +1
                  did you open the link? link training video shooting. shoot from these same javelins at targets. hulls of tanks, models of armored vehicles. I shoot myself quite accurately, despite the fact that the targets are empty. so think hi
                  Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
                  No need to ask questions. Think and try to answer them.

                  need dear, really needed! especially to "kungfu theorists" who read somewhere somewhere, but as a result of "I heard a ring and don’t know where he is."
                  watch the video and then get smart wink look silly laughing
                  1. opus
                    opus 27 November 2017 01: 43 New
                    +1
                    Quote: SanichSan
                    did you open the link?

                    He does not need it.
                    For him, if on the street + 25 (even if there is no sun), then all bodies have heat signature, thermal signature = constant and = 25
                    There are all kinds of heat conduction, convection, body density, poh
                    ==========================
                    Well, if the sun (there is or was 12 hours ago) your pipe
                    1. dubovitskiy.1947
                      dubovitskiy.1947 28 November 2017 17: 55 New
                      0
                      Quote: opus
                      Quote: SanichSan
                      did you open the link?

                      He does not need it.
                      For him, if on the street + 25 (even if there is no sun), then all bodies have heat signature, thermal signature = constant and = 25
                      There are all kinds of heat conduction, convection, body density, poh
                      ==========================
                      Well, if the sun (there is or was 12 hours ago) your pipe

                      Why is there no tank armor temperature in the table? How does it differ from the temperature of a tractor, a crane, and finally a roof? Determine by a lighter (darker) profile and see that this is what you need? And what about after sunset, the temperature until the morning remains with the same gradient? Tell me, how do convection flows in a homogeneous environment?
                      If they were the same fools. you wouldn’t have discontinued this amazing device.
                  2. dubovitskiy.1947
                    dubovitskiy.1947 28 November 2017 19: 25 New
                    0
                    Quote: SanichSan
                    did you open the link? link training video shooting. shoot from these same javelins at targets. hulls of tanks, models of armored vehicles. I shoot myself quite accurately, despite the fact that the targets are empty. so think hi
                    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
                    No need to ask questions. Think and try to answer them.

                    need dear, really needed! especially to "kungfu theorists" who read somewhere somewhere, but as a result of "I heard a ring and don’t know where he is."
                    watch the video and then get smart wink look silly laughing

                    Test conditions (firing) you know? If not, then everything you write here is nonsense.
                    1. Sanichsan
                      Sanichsan 29 November 2017 13: 43 New
                      0
                      Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
                      Test conditions (firing) you know? If not, then everything you write here is nonsense.

                      while you write nonsense. Javelin’s television head is guided by a picture taken by the operator. if at least you are a little distracted from the nonsense that you carry and get acquainted with the facts, then make a lot of amazing discoveries for yourself!
                      for example, after watching a video of combat use, you will suddenly find that 100% of these videos demonstrate shooting at fortifications. probably even to the most stupid person it is obvious that there is no engine in the house or dugout and it certainly does not look like a tank or a tractor.
                      so that the keyboard in your hands and forward acquainted with the facts! hi
        2. MoJloT
          MoJloT 23 November 2017 09: 37 New
          0
          inferiority?
    2. dzvero
      dzvero 22 November 2017 17: 03 New
      +1
      Yes, do not go to the fortune-teller fortuneteller, the javelins in Ukraine will appear in the near future ...
      ... and right away a good half will sail away abroad.
      1. MoJloT
        MoJloT 22 November 2017 17: 59 New
        +1
        It will be necessary to take on any, load the white Kamaz trucks on the way back. A worthy weapon is a worthy use, somewhere in Afghanistan, Iraq or immediately in Palestine.
      2. sgrabik
        sgrabik 22 November 2017 20: 37 New
        +2
        Maybe the Ukrainians and Javelins will sell the Donbass militia, what difference does it make to sell weapons if they pay money, so you can get these systems, study them well and make new protection systems for our armored vehicles on the basis of this.
        1. MoJloT
          MoJloT 23 November 2017 09: 46 New
          0
          Maybe Ukrainians and Donbass militias will sell Javelins

          The Taliban need them, for the militia of our weapons is enough.
          get these complexes, study them well

          The complex is not new, TTX is in the public domain. I think ours have already been played by Israeli and American complexes, and there were our own developments - the industry did not pull.
    3. Nikolai Grek
      Nikolai Grek 22 November 2017 17: 17 New
      +1
      maybe the igilists !!! wassat wassat wassat
    4. Pete mitchell
      Pete mitchell 22 November 2017 21: 52 New
      +5
      Quote: Volka
      Yes, do not go to the fortune-teller fortuneteller, the javelins in Ukraine will appear in the near future ...

      Yes, all this harlot was started for the uncontrolled transfer of good systems to anyone. In the sense of whatever the owner / amer wants, no one after all considers Georgia independent.
      Well, besides cannot accept countries with territorial issues. It’s ridiculous, the policy of Amer / Nata aka drawbar: wherever they turn, there is chiri. Remember Latvia, by and large it claims to Pytalovsky / Abren district - no one even remembered - where they turned ... But the amers are not interested in the interests of slaves, only serfs portray innocence
    5. Dr. Bermental
      Dr. Bermental 23 November 2017 01: 11 New
      0
      and in a day in DNR
  2. engineer74
    engineer74 22 November 2017 16: 41 New
    +2
    I don’t understand one thing, why exactly the “Jewels” became Wunderwaffe ... Where does the hope of defeating Russia come from, even in a proxy war with one ATGM ??? what
    1. Nikolai Grek
      Nikolai Grek 22 November 2017 17: 19 New
      +2
      Quote: engineer74
      I don’t understand one thing, why exactly the “Jewels” became Wunderwaffe ... Where does the hope of defeating Russia come from, even in a proxy war with one ATGM ??? what

      by the same methodology, according to which Ukrainians think that sabakashvili brought hrusia to prosperity !!!! wink yes laughing laughing laughing
    2. Vlad.by
      Vlad.by 22 November 2017 18: 32 New
      +4
      Where did you get Wunderwafla? Just a commercial product with a good plume loop. They are not going to fight at all. They are going to sell it! And for this we need a fairy tale about Wundervaflu.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 22 November 2017 21: 46 New
        +1
        Quote: Vlad.by
        They are going to sell it! And for this we need a fairy tale about Wundervaflu.

        Fairy tales do not help to get around Spike in the competition. Even the Poles.
    3. Lopatov
      Lopatov 22 November 2017 21: 45 New
      +2
      This is not a “child prodigy”, it is a cargo cult in its purest form.
    4. shahor
      shahor 27 November 2017 01: 53 New
      0
      Defeat Russia?
      And Putin said that Russia is not a party to the Ukrainian conflict ...
    5. dubovitskiy.1947
      dubovitskiy.1947 28 November 2017 19: 36 New
      0
      Quote: engineer74
      I don’t understand one thing, why exactly the “Jewels” became Wunderwaffe ... Where does the hope of defeating Russia come from, even in a proxy war with one ATGM ??? what

      You just need to put illiquid assets somewhere. Africa already has this miracle. Further, in descending order. For the ascendant does not climb. Prices are very biting.
  3. HEATHER
    HEATHER 22 November 2017 16: 51 New
    +3
    Georgia. A partner is married to a Georgian woman. She travels to Poti every year. Everything is normal. They don’t taunt the Russians. The Georgians themselves say, politicians, it's not us. They are ours, but we are with you.
    1. Nikolai Grek
      Nikolai Grek 22 November 2017 17: 23 New
      +7
      Quote: VERESK
      Georgians themselves say, politicians, it’s not us. They are ours, and we are with you

      very convenient position .. just like a trump ... I want to be friends with Russia, but it does not give the Washington swamp !!! negative negative negative and under such an excuse, you can spoil Russia as you wish !!! wink wink wink Georgians themselves, under the slogans of their non-involvement in the hostile policies of their country, are cutting money from people like your friend !!! wassat wassat wassat laughing laughing laughing ehhhhhhhhh .... it would be necessary for our people to seriously learn more about the attitude towards those who do not respect our country !!! request request request
      1. HEATHER
        HEATHER 22 November 2017 18: 10 New
        +2
        I said. Married in Georgian. A relative in Poti. He travels every year. We work nearby in the shift. Turn on the brains. Or do you explain it indistinctly? Drink vodka and calm down. I don’t need to tell you about Georgia. With your nickname from the tail.
        1. Nikolai Grek
          Nikolai Grek 22 November 2017 18: 31 New
          +4
          Quote: VERESK
          I said. Married in Georgian. A relative in Poti. He travels every year. We work nearby in the shift. Turn on the brains. Or do you explain it indistinctly? Drink vodka and calm down. I don’t need to tell you about Georgia. With your nickname from the tail.

          what what what Yes, it's his problem that he is married to a Georgian !! wink laughing laughing laughing also, by the way, a wonderful excuse ... they say, because of this you have to have a connection with the hated hruziyu !! wassat wassat lol lol lol for that matter, it’s not for you to tell me about Georgia — these rogues from me are beyond the pass !!! yes wink laughing laughing laughing
          1. HEATHER
            HEATHER 22 November 2017 18: 38 New
            +3
            08.08.08. Have you been there? There is no need to beat people you don’t know. Ask me how Russians treat Georgia. If it’s not interesting, cover your mouth.
            1. Nikolai Grek
              Nikolai Grek 22 November 2017 19: 15 New
              +3
              Quote: VERESK
              08.08.08. Have you been there? There is no need to beat people you don’t know. Ask me how Russians treat Georgia. If it’s not interesting, cover your mouth.

              I repeat again ... they are from me behind the pass !!!
              Quote: VERESK
              08.08.08/XNUMX/XNUMX. Have you been there?

              was not, but helped in escorting the column !!! wink in view of the fact that hrusia has an openly hostile policy towards Russia, I don’t give a damn about the attitude of “Russians” in Georgia !!! negative negative negative laughing laughing laughing it’s your thing that you have a normal attitude towards them, but do not push the topic here about the need for normal relations at the level of peoples !!! I consider the voluntary sponsorship of the Khruzin economy our short-sighted traveler citizens - the height of idiocy !!! wassat wassat wassat By the way, a note for you, there is a rifle in power there, which the Georgian people choose !!! negative negative laughing laughing laughing
        2. sgrabik
          sgrabik 22 November 2017 20: 43 New
          +2
          I won’t say anything for Poti, I haven’t been there, and in Tbilisi far from everyone is so peaceful in relation to the Russians, this is really a fact.
          1. IL-18
            IL-18 22 November 2017 21: 53 New
            +4
            Many years ago I heard in practice on auto-making:
            - Again, object, to Colchis I will transfer!
            - What? I did not mind, immediately said that it would not happen again.
      2. Sergey Cojocari
        Sergey Cojocari 22 November 2017 19: 02 New
        +2
        Such an impression. that in Russia it’s different, and you personally, or even the whole nation, are participating in foreign policy activities. All the same "approvals" as the Georgians. There is only one difference, Russia can turn the world upside down, and Georgia, fart in a puddle.
        1. Nikolai Grek
          Nikolai Grek 22 November 2017 19: 21 New
          +2
          Quote: Sergey Cojokar
          Such an impression. which is different in Russia,


          At least 87 percent of respondents supported the Russian leader in solving global problems and making the right decisions in international affairs, RIA Novosti reports.
          https://rg.ru/2017/06/21/bolshinstvo-rossiian-pod
          derzhali-vneshniuiu-politiku-putina.html

          if you find me the same poll with the same large-scale support by Georgians for the foreign policy of their country, then ... send it to VERESKA !!! wassat wassat lol lol lol
          1. misti1973
            misti1973 23 November 2017 01: 09 New
            +2
            RIA Novosti will not write it to you yet! And if all this is a lie? One thinks the other approves, but one thinks that this one :) And you all will find out from the paid media. Even here on Top Wor they write so many kinds of bullshit, and the audience gets excited
            1. Nikolai Grek
              Nikolai Grek 23 November 2017 01: 25 New
              +1
              Quote: misti1973
              RIA Novosti will not write it to you yet! And if all this is a lie? One thinks the other approves, but one thinks that this one :) And you all will find out from the paid media. Even here on Top Wor they write so many kinds of bullshit, and the audience gets excited

              when you conduct a survey, then think !!! laughing laughing
            2. dubovitskiy.1947
              dubovitskiy.1947 28 November 2017 19: 44 New
              0
              Quote: misti1973
              RIA Novosti will not write it to you yet! And if all this is a lie? One thinks the other approves, but one thinks that this one :) And you all will find out from the paid media. Even here on Top Wor they write so many kinds of bullshit, and the audience gets excited

              Only a figure can refute a number. But not feelings, swear word and the like. Bring those that you have. Compare and talk.
  4. polpot
    polpot 22 November 2017 17: 00 New
    +1
    Well, they must believe in something, they don’t believe in God, they didn’t believe in visa-free travel, now they will put a box from the javelin and will pray for him
    1. HEATHER
      HEATHER 22 November 2017 18: 55 New
      +1
      You have to believe in yourself. Everything else is trash.
  5. Eflintuk
    Eflintuk 22 November 2017 19: 12 New
    0
    A serious weapon. One good thing is that it has a short range and yet defensive, because dill will not help much if attacked.
    1. Strategy
      Strategy 22 November 2017 20: 14 New
      +1
      And what are the "purely defensive" qualities of a "javelin"? Someone in the West blurted out about “defensive” weapons, and everyone caught up, not really thinking that in this way the wolf would again be dressed in sheep's clothing. Or is everyone reasoning at the battle level of the motorized rifle (motorized infantry) squad? Yes, with this ATGM you can’t run into the attack, but it’s possible to carry out fire support to the attackers, moving from one firing line to another on the armored vehicles, or to cover the attacking flanks. You can hit not only attacking tanks, but also those that are on the defensive.
      1. Eflintuk
        Eflintuk 22 November 2017 21: 35 New
        +1
        With a range of 2 km? What are the flanks, what are the movements on the bronics?
        1. Strategy
          Strategy 22 November 2017 21: 45 New
          +1
          I agree with you to continue discussing the topic. Tell me, what is your military education and experience in military service?
        2. Lopatov
          Lopatov 22 November 2017 21: 53 New
          +4
          Quote: EFLINTuk
          With a range of 2 km?

          ?
          With this ATGM is not at all as easy as it seems. There are no self-liquidators and other things. Therefore, the range is limited solely by the capabilities of the GOS. The farthest launch of the standard "Javelina" - 4700 meters.

          And yes, anti-tank systems have never been a “defensive weapon”. It's just like a “defensive howitzer” is a fantastic beast.
          1. Strategy
            Strategy 22 November 2017 22: 01 New
            0
            And the range of topographic visibility in the Western theater of operations in terms of target height of 1,5-2 m is 1-500 m.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 22 November 2017 22: 10 New
              +3
              Quote: Strategia
              And the range of topographic visibility in the Western theater of operations in terms of target height of 1,5-2 m is 1-500 m.

              That’s why even the Poles preferred “Spikes” to “Javelins”
              In general, all group weapons are very heavy. And for this reason, to call, for example, easel machine guns "defensive weapons" is somehow not very correct. It all, including the "Javelins" just has its own characteristics of combat use.
              1. Strategy
                Strategy 22 November 2017 22: 16 New
                0
                Exactly. Especially when there is a mass of armored infantry fighting vehicles that can be used to maneuver portable ATGMs on the battlefield.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 22 November 2017 22: 25 New
                  +2
                  And you can convey it by pawn. He's pretty light, after all. Unlike the same "portable" ATGM "Cornet". Which is actually not portable, but portable
                  1. dubovitskiy.1947
                    dubovitskiy.1947 28 November 2017 19: 48 New
                    0
                    Quote: Spade
                    And you can convey it by pawn. He's pretty light, after all. Unlike the same "portable" ATGM "Cornet". Which is actually not portable, but portable

                    Compare different pieces of iron with only one parameter? By weight? Are you right in making this comparison?
                    1. Topgun
                      Topgun 29 November 2017 16: 57 New
                      0
                      in general, mass is one of the most important parameters not only in nature but also in the army :)))
  6. stroybat ZABVO
    stroybat ZABVO 22 November 2017 19: 18 New
    0
    [media = https: //m.youtube.com/watch? v = K3x_x113rVE]
  7. Midshipman
    Midshipman 22 November 2017 19: 22 New
    +1
    Javelin against a single tank can only work, on the battlefield you penny him the price with his infrared head. Already sick of articles on the topic of "formidable" javelins.
    1. Topgun
      Topgun 22 November 2017 21: 36 New
      +1
      can you tell me more about what prevents a javelin from working on the battlefield
      1. Midshipman
        Midshipman 23 November 2017 10: 29 New
        0
        Infrared homing head. For the first salvo, she can do it, and then, if the curtain is not used, and then the fires will not let her work.
        1. Topgun
          Topgun 23 November 2017 12: 28 New
          +2
          there is not a simple infrared sensor like a stinger or a needle that flies stupidly to heat, there is a matrix - like in a camera or camcorder and it is programmed not stupidly to heat but to an image, it can be aimed at anything important so that it differs from the environment environment (it was warmer or colder) and all the objects around us heat differently and give away heat differently so even the head and infrared can be pointed even at home, bunkers, etc., but there’s nothing to say about the tank, car or helicopter (in a simple way - he flies to the "photo" that the fighter entered into him) ...
          that’s why they say so much about the Javelins - a modern effective weapon, the next one is drones hovering over the battlefield and themselves choosing and attacking targets ...
          the world does not stand still ...
          1. dubovitskiy.1947
            dubovitskiy.1947 24 November 2017 01: 51 New
            0
            Quote: Topgun
            there is not a simple infrared sensor like a stinger or a needle that flies stupidly to heat, there is a matrix - like in a camera or camcorder and it is programmed not stupidly to heat but to an image, it can be aimed at anything important so that it differs from the environment environment (it was warmer or colder) and all the objects around us heat differently and give away heat differently so even the head and infrared can be pointed even at home, bunkers, etc., but there’s nothing to say about the tank, car or helicopter (in a simple way - he flies to the "photo" that the fighter entered into him) ...
            that’s why they say so much about the Javelins - a modern effective weapon, the next one is drones hovering over the battlefield and themselves choosing and attacking targets ...
            the world does not stand still ...

            If the resolution of Javelin allows us to distinguish between slightly different temperatures against the background of a wall heated by the Sun, a tank heated by the Sun, then, therefore, the dynamic range is small. Javelin will go blind from the intense heat of a nearby fire and will adapt for a long time to the temperature of the armored car.
            You never looked through the night vision device and you suddenly got a cigarette light in the lens (worse, a distant spotlight). The matrix is ​​tightly sealed, and in addition to bright illumination, you don’t need anything ....
            1. Topgun
              Topgun 24 November 2017 09: 02 New
              +1
              I love to have a dialogue or an argument with such people - you are rightly asking questions.
              Well, firstly, technology does not have such a problem with blindness as human eyes (our eyesight is chemical and after "exposure" is restored for a long time), judging by the video shot by the same Americans during night shelling, the camera even becomes blind for a split second or even at amid explosions, the objects in the video are clearly visible, although the javelin really has a sensitive camera to capture the target ...
              I can’t answer this question for you, because, of course, I did not hold the "javelin" in my hands ...
              1. Victor Dubovitsky
                Victor Dubovitsky 14 December 2017 18: 24 New
                0
                Quote: Topgun
                I love to have a dialogue or an argument with such people - you are rightly asking questions.
                Well, firstly, technology does not have such a problem with blindness as human eyes (our eyesight is chemical and after "exposure" is restored for a long time), judging by the video shot by the same Americans during night shelling, the camera even becomes blind for a split second or even at amid explosions, the objects in the video are clearly visible, although the javelin really has a sensitive camera to capture the target ...
                I can’t answer this question for you, because, of course, I did not hold the "javelin" in my hands ...

                You do not know about the properties of electronic matrices "illuminated" by an extremely strong signal? I do not advise you to "look" with an electronic camera in the laser beam. You will be forced to throw out the device. In modern devices there is such an option - "Cleaning the matrix." This is just the electronic way to "lighten up" the lighted one. So that in the next picture there are no traces of the old.
  8. gorenina91
    gorenina91 22 November 2017 19: 55 New
    +1
    -But javelins ... are very dangerous weapons ... -What can Little Russia oppose such an effective destructive weapon ..? -The VSU will burn all the tanks of Little Russia ...
    -The story with the stingers is repeated .. when Russia carried out a military mission in Afghanistan ...
    - Little Russia urgently needs to send its scouts, saboteurs .., anyone .., but so that only this weapon does not appear on the battlefield ...
    1. Strategy
      Strategy 22 November 2017 20: 15 New
      0
      You Little Russia and New Russia did not confuse?
      1. gorenina91
        gorenina91 22 November 2017 20: 37 New
        0
        -Yes, I .., of course ... -I mean New Russia (and not Little Russia) ... -Thank you for the correction ...
        1. IL-18
          IL-18 22 November 2017 22: 11 New
          +4
          Horror story.
          One soldier in Afghanistan smoked on a watchtower, flagrantly violating the Charter of the Garrison and Sentry. After the Stinger flew into the tower from the cigarette heat source, a buckle from the belt and an asterisk from the cap were sent to parents. They didn’t collect anything else. On a divorce, I immediately had two questions: where did the buttons go? and where did the rifles and machine guns of the Dushmans go, what do they fire from the stinger on the clock?
          But being the spirit of the Soviet Army, he prudently kept silent.
    2. sgrabik
      sgrabik 22 November 2017 20: 55 New
      0
      The devil is not so terrible as he is painted, many Javelins Americans will not sell Khokhlam for fear that they will simply be resold to militia of the LDNR, the Americans have already heard about the extreme venality of the Armed Forces soldiers, for the sake of personal gain they are ready to sell almost anything.
      1. Strategy
        Strategy 22 November 2017 21: 10 New
        0
        So it’s like a pin ... dos gathered "javelins" to Georgians to sell ...
    3. dubovitskiy.1947
      dubovitskiy.1947 24 November 2017 01: 55 New
      0
      Quote: gorenina91
      -But javelins ... are very dangerous weapons ... -What can Little Russia oppose such an effective destructive weapon ..? -The VSU will burn all the tanks of Little Russia ...
      -The story with the stingers is repeated .. when Russia carried out a military mission in Afghanistan ...
      - Little Russia urgently needs to send its scouts, saboteurs .., anyone .., but so that only this weapon does not appear on the battlefield ...

      Flamethrower systems Sunshine is a wonderful cure for this mold.
  9. HEATHER
    HEATHER 22 November 2017 20: 44 New
    +1
    Oh, damn it. There was a time.
  10. The comment was deleted.
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  12. Clone
    Clone 22 November 2017 21: 22 New
    0
    Quote: gorenina91
    APU will burn all the tanks of Little Russia ...

    Ndaaa ... "yasamadochofofsera"? repeat
  13. as-buki-vedi
    as-buki-vedi 22 November 2017 21: 29 New
    0
    You don’t see how they all over the world are striking their substandard? Settle conflicts and spread. Where the praised hammers helped?
  14. mariusdeayeraleone
    mariusdeayeraleone 22 November 2017 21: 36 New
    +1
    It’s not clear why the Georgians should pay the same price. If they can buy the same ones tested near commissures?
    Why didn’t Israel like?
  15. TOR2
    TOR2 22 November 2017 21: 50 New
    +1
    Quote: MoJloT
    Yes, do not go to the fortune-teller fortuneteller, the javelins in Ukraine will appear in the near future

    At one time in Afghanistan, this thing entered into a dispute with the “Stingers”.
    It is time for the "grandmother" to work on the ground. There will be no dead zones on the tank. True electricity eats like a century not fed.
    1. prosto_rgb
      prosto_rgb 23 November 2017 00: 54 New
      +1
      Quote: TOR2
      Quote: MoJloT
      Yes, do not go to the fortune-teller fortuneteller, the javelins in Ukraine will appear in the near future

      At one time in Afghanistan, this thing entered into a dispute with the “Stingers”.
      It is time for the "grandmother" to work on the ground. There will be no dead zones on the tank. True electricity eats like a century not fed.

      And how does she save from the Javelins?
      1. Timeout
        Timeout 23 November 2017 04: 50 New
        0
        Quote: prosto_rgb
        And how does she save from the Javelins?

        And you google about "Linden" and everything will become clear.
        1. prosto_rgb
          prosto_rgb 23 November 2017 14: 59 New
          +3
          Quote: Timeout
          Quote: prosto_rgb
          And how does she save from the Javelins?

          And you google about "Linden" and everything will become clear.

          So google and about linden and Javelin, the principle of operation of both devices and explain how the linden will save from Javelins.
        2. Topgun
          Topgun 23 November 2017 15: 00 New
          +2
          I doubt that this is effective - it flies to the “photo” of the object and all kinds of heat traps do not knock it down, heat rays as in this case only if they shine directly into the optics and the probability of this is small, the only way is to blind the sensor with a laser (you need a system that scans using the space for optics and the lights shone there with a laser), can you really catch time to hide (rocket 10-20s to fly bu) ...
          IMHO, the more “smart” it becomes to make a weapon, the harder it will be to “trick” it, as a result, in an eternal struggle of weapons and defense, I think the weapon will win (in this case, if the missiles are blinded, as I described, the rocket manufacturers can screw some kind of inertia - to fly from "memory" to "blind") ...
          1. TOR2
            TOR2 23 November 2017 21: 30 New
            0
            I have not heard about the channel of "technical vision" on the "Javelin".
            1. Topgun
              Topgun 24 November 2017 09: 06 New
              +2
              and what is wrong with the "technical channels" of the javelin?
              I will conduct a dialogue in your manner - without detailed answers :))
              1. TOR2
                TOR2 24 November 2017 20: 15 New
                0
                Detailed answers here.
                https://topwar.ru/35953-srednyaya-broneboynaya-or
                uzheynaya-sistema-javelin.html
          2. Yarhann
            Yarhann 25 November 2017 15: 47 New
            0
            guys already have enough air to shudder in Ukraine there is ATGM Stugna which it produces. This is a common modern ATGM that can be taunted for bast purposes and not only for contrast in the IR range - that is, windows in the DotA houses machine-gun points td and tp - as well as for tanks and other equipment. At the same time, she simply has a huge advantage in range of use, unlike 2500 Jewelin 5000 for a planer, and if a Nikgeo tank is not particularly able to counter ATGM calculations for 4000-5000 meters, then at a distance of Jdevelin 2000-2500 meters, the tank can still be considered as a land mine. before that calculation manages to direct the missile (it takes time to capture the target of the seeker) and shmolnit in the tank.
            And most importantly, do not forget that stugna and even its production are several times cheaper than jewel.
            And yes, the cost of weapons is a very important component if not the main one))
          3. dubovitskiy.1947
            dubovitskiy.1947 29 November 2017 14: 02 New
            0
            Quote: Topgun
            I doubt that this is effective - it flies to the “photo” of the object and all kinds of heat traps do not knock it down, heat rays as in this case only if they shine directly into the optics and the probability of this is small, the only way is to blind the sensor with a laser (you need a system that scans using the space for optics and the lights shone there with a laser), can you really catch time to hide (rocket 10-20s to fly bu) ...
            IMHO, the more “smart” it becomes to make a weapon, the harder it will be to “trick” it, as a result, in an eternal struggle of weapons and defense, I think the weapon will win (in this case, if the missiles are blinded, as I described, the rocket manufacturers can screw some kind of inertia - to fly from "memory" to "blind") ...

            From "memory blindly" simple artillery shells fly. A good evolution is a return to the old. but for space prices. Tell Pindos theme for advertising. Suckers like it.
  16. Eurodav
    Eurodav 22 November 2017 23: 07 New
    +1
    Here the schoolboy reads it and concludes, where are the Javelins there Nam-Khan! And no one will tell the lad how behind every javelinist who has not yet taken, but only thought ... the sniper calculation is on the hunt right away ... Military science will stand and stand there!
    1. dubovitskiy.1947
      dubovitskiy.1947 28 November 2017 23: 48 New
      0
      Quote: Evrodav
      Here the schoolboy reads it and concludes, where are the Javelins there Nam-Khan! And no one will tell the lad how behind every javelinist who has not yet taken, but only thought ... the sniper calculation is on the hunt right away ... Military science will stand and stand there!

      Is it just snipers? Mortars in this case are much more effective. Moreover, the AGS system.
  17. misti1973
    misti1973 23 November 2017 01: 00 New
    0
    Damn, I also thought about Ukraine, even without really starting to read :)
  18. mariusdeayeraleone
    mariusdeayeraleone 23 November 2017 06: 44 New
    +1
    Quote: gorenina91
    -But javelins ... are very dangerous weapons ... -What can Little Russia oppose such an effective destructive weapon ..? -The VSU will burn all the tanks of Little Russia ...
    -The story with the stingers is repeated .. when Russia carried out a military mission in Afghanistan ...
    - Little Russia urgently needs to send its scouts, saboteurs .., anyone .., but so that only this weapon does not appear on the battlefield ...


    Yugoslavia has the same problem in the Caucasus
  19. Temnik 2017
    Temnik 2017 23 November 2017 08: 55 New
    +1
    And if you attach a cable with thermal traps to the tank?
    Well termite checkers for example ....
    In theory, the head of the javelin should be pointed at them.
    1. Topgun
      Topgun 24 November 2017 10: 34 New
      +1
      he does not fly to heat but to a thermal image, a "picture" ...
      1. dubovitskiy.1947
        dubovitskiy.1947 28 November 2017 23: 36 New
        0
        Quote: Topgun
        he does not fly to heat but to a thermal image, a "picture" ...

        An interesting topic is the pattern recognition system. Develop, tell us how to lay in memory an infinite number of “images”, a tank, or hundreds of other weapons against which the javelin is intended, in any projections, any thermal pictures. Moreover, dynamically changing, at least defense systems of armored vehicles with special devices.
        1. Topgun
          Topgun 29 November 2017 16: 44 New
          0
          want to be clever but it doesn’t work :))
          she flies to the "image" that her soldier pointed at, but she gets the image during the guidance, there is no base in the rocket, why?
          It seems to me, it's elementary ...
          1. dubovitskiy.1947
            dubovitskiy.1947 29 November 2017 16: 56 New
            0
            Quote: Topgun
            want to be clever but it doesn’t work :))
            she flies to the "image" that her soldier pointed at, but she gets the image during the guidance, there is no base in the rocket, why?
            It seems to me, it's elementary ...

            Then in the memory of the projectile should be a photograph of the object. And the more detailed the picture, the easier it is to distort it. And during aiming and flight with a picture (in kind, and not in memory), nothing should change. But the protection of the tank, throwing traps, fog and so on, do not they change the picture? And in flight, when the projectile gains height (hits from above) does the picture not change?
            I had to work with control systems and pattern recognition. As a developer. And I know that knocking down an image, distorting it, and replacing it is very simple.
            1. Topgun
              Topgun 29 November 2017 17: 03 New
              0
              here in eta there is a snag in eta and there is the work of engineers and programmers, therefore there is no javelin for everyone ...
  20. viktorch
    viktorch 23 November 2017 12: 18 New
    0
    this howl about javelins has been going on for two years, and things are still there
  21. Yarhann
    Yarhann 25 November 2017 15: 29 New
    0
    Of course, mattresses are able to soar weapons to suckers - I wondered if the cost of one set will be at the level of the cost of one bu tank of the Abrams type)
  22. dubovitskiy.1947
    dubovitskiy.1947 28 November 2017 19: 29 New
    0
    Quote: dubovitskiy.1947
    Quote: opus
    Quote: SanichSan
    did you open the link?

    He does not need it.
    For him, if on the street + 25 (even if there is no sun), then all bodies have heat signature, thermal signature = constant and = 25
    There are all kinds of heat conduction, convection, body density, poh
    ==========================
    Well, if the sun (there is or was 12 hours ago) your pipe

    Why is there no tank armor temperature in the table? How does it differ from the temperature of a tractor, a crane, and finally a roof? Determine by a lighter (darker) profile and see that this is what you need? And what about after sunset, the temperature until the morning remains with the same gradient? Tell me, how do convection flows in a homogeneous environment?
    If they were the same fools. you wouldn’t have discontinued this amazing device.

    And finally. If he “sees” the temperature difference in tenths of a degree, then how will he feel in hundreds of degrees? How is it with the dynamic range? What do your academic knowledge say there?
    1. Topgun
      Topgun 29 November 2017 16: 53 New
      0
      Well, why write nonsense and then justify?
      listen to what they say to you ...
      it doesn’t have any memory of the temperature of objects in the sun, say a tank of t 90, etc., it flies at anything, it’s pointed at everything at the bunkers, and it can be aimed at almost anything (especially a piece of iron in the grass) because everything it heats in different ways and gives off heat in different ways and therefore the temperature of everything is different take a look at the thermal imager at least once ...
      and with working equipment the temperature is all the more different ...
      1. dubovitskiy.1947
        dubovitskiy.1947 30 November 2017 17: 42 New
        0
        Quote: Topgun
        Well, why write nonsense and then justify?
        listen to what they say to you ...
        it doesn’t have any memory of the temperature of objects in the sun, say a tank of t 90, etc., it flies at anything, it’s pointed at everything at the bunkers, and it can be aimed at almost anything (especially a piece of iron in the grass) because everything it heats in different ways and gives off heat in different ways and therefore the temperature of everything is different take a look at the thermal imager at least once ...
        and with working equipment the temperature is all the more different ...



        https://militaryreview.su/288-fgm-148-javelin-v-d
        etalyah.html

        Excerpt from this article-
        "The manufacturer suggests a 94% chance of being hit, based on a test in which there were 31 successful hits out of 32. Nonetheless, the effectiveness in actual combat is slightly less. CBS, CNN and the New Zealand Herald described incidents in the Iraq war, in which missiles fell in front of or behind the target, or even didn’t start. In a shootout near the Debacka pass, 14 out of 19 missiles launched their target.
        One of the reasons for the decrease in the effectiveness of Javelin ATGMs in battle is virtual training. Computer modeling can complement learning, but it can not replace real exercises. So the shooter has difficulty detecting and fixing the target. As a result of misses.
        On the graph shown on the right, there are temperature dependences on terrain conditions and tanks. There are ambient temperatures where the temperatures are almost equal and the infrared sight does not work. According to the U.S. Army manual, this can be fixed by adjusting the settings on the PU, but according to newspaper reports, this does not help much.
        Therefore, we can assume that the frequency of hits varies depending on the operating conditions, depending on the heat sources and experience of the soldiers, between 50% and 75%. "


        Another interesting point, there-
        "In the event of an emergency when the thermal imaging sight in the PU is not available due to insufficient cooling, ...."
        1. Topgun
          Topgun 1 December 2017 12: 17 New
          0
          and?
          even ICBMs do not have a 100% probability of failure in the absence of counteraction ...
          even 50% is fine considering that the calculation doesn’t burn, which means it can be launched more than once (and a calculation of 2 people easily carries a launch block and 3 missiles, it’s possible to weigh more than 16 kg), but 50% is very pessimistic, the example of real combat use that you cited 14 of 19 ...
          and it’s not strange, but it’s already outdated :)) yes, it’s really possible to increase the complex’s capabilities significantly (by today's standards, it has an ancient filling)
          1. dubovitskiy.1947
            dubovitskiy.1947 1 December 2017 13: 12 New
            0
            Quote: Topgun
            and?
            even ICBMs do not have a 100% probability of failure in the absence of counteraction ...
            even 50% is fine considering that the calculation doesn’t burn, which means it can be launched more than once (and a calculation of 2 people easily carries a launch block and 3 missiles, it’s possible to weigh more than 16 kg), but 50% is very pessimistic, the example of real combat use that you cited 14 of 19 ...
            and it’s not strange, but it’s already outdated :)) yes, it’s really possible to increase the complex’s capabilities significantly (by today's standards, it has an ancient filling)

            The Javelins are a dead project. That is, not modernizable. Illiquid assets are sold. For absolutely unimaginable prices. Tanks are being modernized. Both previously manufactured and newly created. So, an indicator of 50-75% is monotonously decreasing. The interaction of parts is improved, with the exception of the very possibility of using this scrap metal.
            Notice, at first I made the arguments, as to the specialist, which I understood, and then I found material confirming my case.
            1. Topgun
              Topgun 1 December 2017 14: 15 New
              0
              why is a dead project?
              https://topwar.ru/111981-ssha-vozobnovili-ispytan
              iya-novoy-versii-ptrk-javelin-fgm-148.html
              the example that you brought just indicates the high efficiency of the complex: As a result, the soldiers spent 19 Javelin missiles destroyed in total: two battle tanks, eight BTR-MTLB and four army trucks. This example shows that in the event of an emergency, even a small detachment with only medium anti-tank missile systems can protect itself from the armed to the teeth of a mechanized enemy.
              Read more: https://militaryreview.su/288-fgm-148-javelin-vd
              etalyah.html
              there’s no effective counteraction to the Javelins today,
              and given the modernization potential, the effectiveness of the complex will only grow, increasing the “brains” of the complex, the soldier will only need to point it towards the target, the device itself can do identification and direct guidance (again, in a rocket with this brain, it is not necessary to increase the brains but only to aim the complex ), and it is possible to increase the brain of a rocket - let’s say that it attacks targets that a drone sees, that is, from behind a hill and a shelter ...
              your "expert arguments" are subjective and can be understood - it’s unpleasant when the enemy has such a weapon ...
              1. dubovitskiy.1947
                dubovitskiy.1947 1 December 2017 20: 59 New
                0
                Quote: Topgun
                why is a dead project?
                https://topwar.ru/111981-ssha-vozobnovili-ispytan
                iya-novoy-versii-ptrk-javelin-fgm-148.html
                the example that you brought just indicates the high efficiency of the complex: As a result, the soldiers spent 19 Javelin missiles destroyed in total: two battle tanks, eight BTR-MTLB and four army trucks. This example shows that in the event of an emergency, even a small detachment with only medium anti-tank missile systems can protect itself from the armed to the teeth of a mechanized enemy.
                Read more: https://militaryreview.su/288-fgm-148-javelin-vd
                etalyah.html
                there’s no effective counteraction to the Javelins today,
                and given the modernization potential, the effectiveness of the complex will only grow, increasing the “brains” of the complex, the soldier will only need to point it towards the target, the device itself can do identification and direct guidance (again, in a rocket with this brain, it is not necessary to increase the brains but only to aim the complex ), and it is possible to increase the brain of a rocket - let’s say that it attacks targets that a drone sees, that is, from behind a hill and a shelter ...
                your "expert arguments" are subjective and can be understood - it’s unpleasant when the enemy has such a weapon ...

                Don't you get it? Well, you and firewood. DISCONTINUED IT. Who will start raising what the army does not need?
                https://www.nalin.ru/strashnaya-pravda-pro-dzhave
                liny-5818
              2. dubovitskiy.1947
                dubovitskiy.1947 3 December 2017 00: 10 New
                0
                Quote: Topgun
                why is a dead project?
                https://topwar.ru/111981-ssha-vozobnovili-ispytan
                iya-novoy-versii-ptrk-javelin-fgm-148.html
                the example that you brought just indicates the high efficiency of the complex: As a result, the soldiers spent 19 Javelin missiles destroyed in total: two battle tanks, eight BTR-MTLB and four army trucks. This example shows that in the event of an emergency, even a small detachment with only medium anti-tank missile systems can protect itself from the armed to the teeth of a mechanized enemy.
                Read more: https://militaryreview.su/288-fgm-148-javelin-vd
                etalyah.html
                there’s no effective counteraction to the Javelins today,
                and given the modernization potential, the effectiveness of the complex will only grow, increasing the “brains” of the complex, the soldier will only need to point it towards the target, the device itself can do identification and direct guidance (again, in a rocket with this brain, it is not necessary to increase the brains but only to aim the complex ), and it is possible to increase the brain of a rocket - let’s say that it attacks targets that a drone sees, that is, from behind a hill and a shelter ...
                your "expert arguments" are subjective and can be understood - it’s unpleasant when the enemy has such a weapon ...

                Not a modernization. Is it not clear that modernization is the dismantling of the existing, alteration, revision and new assembly. The shell is new. The management system is new. This is not a modernization; it is a new design. What remains of Javelin? Only the name. A marketing move so that the story is known to the buyer. The new brand should still gain attention.
                I don’t understand what the hell, if you don’t think a damn thing, you’re trying to prove something here.