Military Review

New WAC47 machine for the army of Ukraine

86
Back at the beginning of 2017, information appeared on the rearmament of the Ukrainian army. It is about replacing the Kalashnikov with a new WAC47, which is a version of the M4. Given the country's desire to become as “westward” as possible, this phenomenon is quite natural and something similar could be observed in the countries that were once part of the Warsaw Pact and now are members of NATO. Let's try to get to know the new machine and find out why and how it claims to be the new main manual. weapon for the army of Ukraine.


Reasons for upgrading and prospects for the WAC47


The main reason for the rearmament is quite obvious - the need to use single ammunition with new Western partners. However, the situation in the country is somewhat different from, say, the same Poland, where at one time this question also arose.

At the moment, the main ammunition of the Ukrainian army is our domestic 5,45x39. The patron is massive, there are many in its warehouses, but with account of the conduct of hostilities any “many” ends sooner or later. In this regard, there is a need for regular replenishment of the stocks of this cartridge, and the only large cartridge plant is located in Lugansk. That is, the country’s own production of ammunition is no longer there, at least on the necessary scale. By itself, the 5,45 x39 cartridge is inexpensive, in principle, as a temporary measure, you could consider buying ammunition abroad, but in the west 5,45х39 is present nominally in the market, but clearly not in the quantity and price that it would suit. It remains only to buy in Russia, which even sounds, at least, strange.

There is, however, an option to get ammunition from countries that are friendly with Russia, but, firstly, no one wants to spoil these friendly relations, and secondly, intermediaries want profit from resale, which will significantly increase the cost of ammunition for Ukraine. No one wants to risk just for a meager fee.

It would seem that such a situation is an excellent catalyst for the transition to new ammunition of the NATO standard, and in principle it is so, but in the current situation this transition needs to be done urgently, while there are no factories that could be simply refitted at the moment. no, actually nothing. Everything has to start from scratch, starting with the foundation of the same plants, and all this had to be done yesterday, and even better the day before yesterday.

Provided that in the near future a transition to NATO standard cartridges is expected and the problem must be solved with the production of not only ammunition, but, ideally, weapons, then it is logical to make this transition right now than to spend money on retooling new plants.

For example, the same Poland was not so limited in time for the transition to a new ammunition that it even managed to develop its own weapon under 5,56х45, by the way, initially based on a Kalashnikov, one could even say an alternative branch of weapon development.

Thus, Ukraine, at the moment, is forced to cling to any help in the process of transitioning the army to a new cartridge and weapon for it, as well as deploying production in its territory.

This assistance was unexpectedly decided to provide the American company with Ukrainian roots - Aeroscraft. This company began its journey in the city of Lviv, but in the year 1994 moved to the United States, where to this day it has been developing tracking systems based on airships. The company does not have its own developments in firearms, based on the information presented on the site. Nevertheless, Aeroscraft offered assistance to Ukroboronprom at the start of production of the new WAC47 machine gun, which is essentially M4, of course, under license.

October 5 2017, a demonstration test of new weapons was carried out, after which the first trial batch of new machines was transferred for use in the army.

The design of the machine WAC47

As mentioned earlier, the WAC47 is a very close relative of the M4. A distinctive feature of this product is the implementation of its modularity, allowing not only to change the length of the barrel of the weapon, but also to adapt it for various ammunition.

The machine itself was originally designed under the chambered 7,62x39, which in the current situation is a very fortunate combination of circumstances. If we consider that the 5,45х39 cartridges are running out, then before the start of production of new ammunition, it is logical to use up the Soviet stocks 7,62х39.

So, the weapon can be adapted for the cartridges 5,45x39, 7,62x39, 5,56x45, as well as other promising ammunition, such as Grendel.

In principle, the design can not focus on, given its similarity with the M4.

The main problems of the machine WAC47

If the WAC47 machine gun were considered in the context of just a new type of weapon, then the requirements for it, of course, would be softer. However, in this particular situation, a number of variables are added that raise questions and make you draw certain conclusions.

New WAC47 machine for the army of Ukraine
First of all, I propose to consider in more detail the “multi-caliberity” of weapons in the context of financial expediency.
In order to change the used ammunition from 7,62x39 to 5,45x39, only the barrel and the weapon shop need to be replaced. Provided that such a replacement can be made on the spot in a military unit, then this is only a plus for weapons. However, we are interested in the transition to the cartridge 5,56х45. In order to switch to this cartridge, it will be necessary to change: the trunk, the gate larvae, if not the entire bolt group, as well as the lower part of the receiver (in a fashionable lower receiver), as the other store will be used, respectively, and the receiver of the store will be different. It turns out that when moving to a new ammunition, you will need to replace half of the parts, and those that were removed will rust somewhere. In the event that a change of ammunition was achieved not by replacing individual parts, but by changing weapons, the old machine guns could be realized even within the country, depriving them of the possibility of automatic fire. In this case, there will remain a large number of trunks, parts of the receiver and gate larvae, which are not needed by anyone and for nothing.

Another interesting issue is the reliability of the machine with our domestic cartridges. It's no secret for anyone that our weapons are very good, so good that they work great with the most ... not the best cartridges. However, the automation system with the impact of powder gases directly on the bolt carrier is very sensitive to ammunition, in particular to the powder composition. Whether all this will work with domestic cartridges, which are designed entirely for other weapons, and whether it will work reliably is a moot point.

Of course, this statement can be contrasted with the experience of civilian weapons, among which there are a sufficient number of models with a similar system of automation and which perfectly feed on domestic-made cartridges. But there is one thing. Civilian weapons are always licked, cleaned and licked again from all sides. Usually the maintenance of weapons for the owner is an entire ceremony, in the army it is a necessity, and if a person is forced to do something, then most often he does it badly. Do not forget that many are accustomed to the AK, which tolerates the most barbaric attitude towards them, you will have to watch out for the new weapon.

Possible outcome of cooperation

Despite the fact that the first small batch of new machines has already been transferred to the Ukrainian army, it cannot be excluded that even after the allocation of funds for the construction of a plant for the production of a new machine gun and ammunition plant, something will really be built. Whatever one may say, the situation in the country is very unstable and one has to be a very risky person in order to allocate funds, and not small ones, for quite large projects.

If, nevertheless, the plants will be built, it is not known how the production of the new machine gun will be organized, whether it will be completely Ukrainian weapons or whether it will simply be assembled from foreign component modules. If we are talking about the last option, then in principle nothing is needed to build; it is enough just to select a few large rooms.

In general, it is strange that in the presence of its own developments, and quite interesting ones, Ukroboronprom decides to produce something under another's license. In any case, it is too early to draw any specific conclusions on this cooperation, for the time being we can only assume and continue monitoring.
Author:
Photos used:
112.ua, zbroya.info, gordonua.com
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  1. svp67
    svp67 13 November 2017 07: 31
    +8
    In general, it is strange that in the presence of its own developments, and quite interesting ones, Ukroboronprom decides to produce something under someone else's license.
    This is just not strange. In Ukrainian reality, the main thing is not only money, but who will get it ....
    And I would very much like to know how much this automatic machine is “resistant” to the steel sleeve of Soviet cartridges.
    1. AlexMark
      13 November 2017 07: 42
      10
      I still think that the "weak" place will be the powder composition in the amount of inadequate care of the weapon.
      1. Amurets
        Amurets 13 November 2017 08: 09
        +9
        Quote: AlexMark
        I still think that the "weak" place will be the powder composition in the amount of inadequate care of the weapon.

        The weak point will be the personnel. Recall CBT and ABC. For some reason, they worked great for snipers, border guards, in the marines, in the German and Finnish armies, but they did not take root in the Soviet infantry. So it will be in the Ukrainian army.
        1. AlexMark
          13 November 2017 08: 24
          +5
          ABC-36 in general, I can safely call the most interesting rifle in its class and time. Yes, complex, but capricious, but then the characteristics are not anyhow anyhow. Although I have a negative trait - I really like weapons with a complex construction, maybe these are all explained)
          1. Amurets
            Amurets 13 November 2017 08: 40
            +4
            Quote: AlexMark
            In general, I can safely call the ABC-36 the most interesting rifle in its class and time.

            My father served with SVT-40 at the Pacific Fleet in 1940-1947. He said that it was necessary to take care and clean the rifle very carefully. In 1942, these rifles were taken from them and handed over to the marines, and they were armed with conventional rifles. He served as a telephone operator for RF communications at the headquarters of the Pacific Fleet. ABC-36 is a really interesting design, and according to Novikov's memoirs, at that time working at the Izhevsk arms factory, the rifle springs were the biggest problems for them.
        2. svp67
          svp67 13 November 2017 08: 34
          +5
          Quote: Amurets
          For some reason, they worked great for snipers, border guards, in the marines, in the German and Finnish armies, but they did not take root in the Soviet infantry.

          For various reasons, including due to the high cost of production in wartime. Mosinka was much cheaper, which allowed it to produce millions of samples ...
          1. Magellan
            Magellan 13 November 2017 09: 04
            10
            By the beginning of the war, the troops had about 1,5 million military troops, which is a lot, almost all the divisions in the western districts were armed with standard military vehicles, the Germans were shocked by the abundance of self-loading rifles, many felt that "the Russians are fully armed with light machine guns." If you look at the pictures of those years, you can see the Germans with SVT behind their shoulders, which proves that the Germans respected SVT. At least you won’t see a German with a three-ruler over his shoulder. If you believe Isaev’s data, the cost of SVT was approximately 9 times higher than the cost of the three-ruler and comparable to the cost of DP, therefore, with the beginning of the war, the production of SVT was reduced, and in 1942 they completely turned it off, instead of SVT they began to stamp PCA, which produced 6 million pieces.
            1. svp67
              svp67 13 November 2017 09: 13
              +3
              Quote: Magellan
              , instead of SVT, PPSh were stamped, of which 6 million were manufactured.

              During the same time, nearly 12 million pieces of "mosinos" were produced
              1. Magellan
                Magellan 13 November 2017 09: 21
                10
                Well, yes, the Izhevsk arms factory produced 10-12 thousand Mosin rifles per day, which was enough to equip two divisions with rifles. Therefore, the liberal stories about one rifle for two, three or four are a blatant lie, nothing more, but there were enough small arms in the Red Army, the soldiers were all armed with rifles or PCA. Anyway, almost any weapon was enough: industry rhythmically produced guns, tanks, planes, machine guns, ammunition. What the Red Army lacked was trucks, armored personnel carriers, and tractors, but this shortfall was made up for by means of Lend-Lease.
                1. IL-18
                  IL-18 13 November 2017 23: 23
                  +3
                  If all these divisions were formed in Izhevsk, it would have been without problems with the supply of small arms.
            2. BAI
              BAI 13 November 2017 10: 37
              +7
              At least you won’t see a German with a three-ruler over his shoulder.

              Probably looked bad.

              And the Mosin rifle and our 45 mm cannon.
              1. Magellan
                Magellan 13 November 2017 10: 46
                +7
                Most likely these are parts of the SS from the Baltic states or Ukrainians. They were armed with captured Soviet weapons.
              2. sibiryouk
                sibiryouk 13 November 2017 18: 27
                +1
                Perhaps this is not the Germans, but the Vlasovites! More Mosin rifles and our guns used the Finns.
                1. Orionvit
                  Orionvit 14 November 2017 20: 52
                  0
                  Quote: sibiryouk
                  Perhaps it’s not the Germans, but the Vlasovites

                  The Vlasovites did not participate in the hostilities at all, except for the last days of the war, and only occasionally.
            3. Zweihander
              Zweihander 13 November 2017 13: 03
              +5
              Joseph Allerberger, the second most successful German sniper during the war, fought the first 9 months of his sniper career with the Mosin trophy rifle. Mountain Rifle Alpine Division, not the Baltic states and not Ukrainian.
          2. Amurets
            Amurets 13 November 2017 09: 25
            +6
            Quote: svp67
            For various reasons, including due to the high cost of production in wartime. Mosinka was much cheaper, which allowed it to produce millions of samples ...

            It’s hard for you to object. On the production of small arms and not only, there is a good book by Novikov. V.N. On the eve and on test days. Link to where you can download the book. Having evaluated all the offers accumulated over many years, we finally understood: this is largely a way out. Now it was necessary to coordinate innovations with military acceptance. They invited Colonel N. N. Belyanchikov to the meeting of the chief military representative of the plant. Everyone knew him as an extremely honest, caring person who did not need to jerk a plant without need, which is always important for production. They told him what we planned to do, and asked to give their consent to change the technology so that the plant could produce the necessary 12 thousand rifles per day.
            https://royallib.com/book/novikov_vladimir/nakanu
            ne_i_v_dni_ispitaniy.html
            1. AlexMark
              13 November 2017 10: 03
              +7
              Thank you so much for the tip-off on this book, just looking for something worthwhile for "advanced training" hi
              1. Amurets
                Amurets 13 November 2017 10: 23
                +4
                Quote: AlexMark
                Thank you so much for the tip-off on this book, just looking for something worthwhile for "advanced training"

                By the way. It has and why it was removed from production and armament your favorite ABC-36.
                “Only two self-loading rifles withstood them. But what preference should be given to the one that Tokarev made or the one that Simonov introduced? The balance hesitated. The Tokarev rifle was heavier, but there were fewer breakdowns when checking for survivability. Elegant and Simonov’s light rifle, which in many respects surpassed Tokarev’s, failed: the firing pin in the bolt broke, and this failure - only evidence that the firing pin was made of insufficient quality metal — decided, in fact, the outcome of the dispute.
                The role played by the fact that Tokarev knew Stalin well. Simonov’s name said little to him. In practice, it was only necessary to carry out technological testing of the sample, according to the test results, which in fact was done after the acceptance of weapons into service. CM. Bolotin D.N. "History of Soviet small arms and ammunition"
              2. beeper
                beeper 13 November 2017 20: 24
                +5
                Dear Mark, for general development, read Markevich’s books, if you didn’t. "Notes People's Commissar of Arms" Vannikova. I hope that you have already read the books of Fedorov, Blagonravov, Kalashnikov, Malimon, Monetchikov. Well, from the books of Bolotin, Zhuk, Grits and Nagaev, everyone usually begins their "educational program." In the journal Technika-Molodezhi for 1973 there was a thematic series of articles on domestic small arms edited by Spitalniy (in an article devoted to ShKAS, the bike about the “masterpiece machine gun” allegedly lying under glass in the Reich’s office was launched for the first time). In “TM” for 1967, a note was printed with a drawing about Stechkin’s pistol and his diploma defense (it was an original pistol with a trigger located in the bolt, which is why members of the commission doubted the operability of the “device” and even had to shoot ))). In general, the TM editorial board posted many interesting articles on weapons, especially on the "round dates" of Victory and the BOP, then began to release the Weapon app. Magazines "Equipment and Armament", "Foreign Military Review", "Military Herald", "Soldier of Fortune" of different years will also help you if you write on weapons topics. If you want, then find and read a very good book by Popenker, "Second World War of the Weaponsmakers."
                This is so offhand .... Well and more often, whenever possible, "feel" the weapon live. smile
                Good luck, Mark, and Creative Inspiration! Thank you for your articles, I already like a lot in them yes
                hi
                1. beeper
                  beeper 13 November 2017 20: 37
                  +1
                  I forgot to say one thing about automatic and self-loading rifles ABC and SVT, or rather about little-known reasons for their unstable work in wartime.
                  Apparently, this was also due to wartime surrogate gunpowder (with surrogate cartridges did these rifles give frequent delays, in contrast to the “three-ruler”)?
        3. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 13 November 2017 12: 24
          +1
          Quote: Amurets
          The weak point will be the personnel. Recall CBT and ABC. For some reason, they worked great for snipers, border guards, in the marines, in the German and Finnish armies, but they did not take root in the Soviet infantry.

          No wonder ...
          The neglect of instructions on the storage and preservation of weapons in the units of troops, ignorance of the automatic weapon structure, its disassembly rules brought to such a state that the automatic rifles "ABC", submachine guns "Degtyarev" when they were disassembled, were hardened, started in gas ways , the entire vent assembly is rusty, the barrel surface and other parts are heavily rusted. The same state of gas paths and the machine guns "DP".

          In parts of 97 SD rifles manufactured in 1940. ,being on hand for no more than 4 months, up to 29% are reduced to rust in the boremachine guns "DP" manufactured in 1939 to 14% also have a deterioration of the channels of the trunks.

          © The KOVO weapons verification act for the 1940th year.
          1. AlexMark
            13 November 2017 13: 33
            +2
            I personally met the PKK with! Attention! jammed drummer, while the weapon was already considered their own. The first question is how it was possible to bring the weapon to such a state, the second question, it was actually written off.
    2. alexmach
      alexmach 14 November 2017 00: 10
      0
      Meaning they do an automatic machine under a Soviet cartridge then? What ended AKM and AK-74 in warehouses?
      1. Michael HORNET
        Michael HORNET 14 November 2017 08: 18
        +1
        Kickbacks, cuts)
        This is the main thing in this project.
    3. Mister X
      Mister X 17 November 2017 18: 36
      0
      So, the weapon can be adapted for the cartridges 5,45x39, 7,62x39, 5,56x45, as well as other promising ammunition, such as Grendel.
      Posted by: Mark Poddubny

      hi
      There is evidence that the command of the special forces of the United States considers the 6,5 mm ammunition no longer as automatic, but as a substitute for the NATO 7,62 cartridge for sniper rifles.
      1. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 1 February 2018 20: 25
        0
        Quote: Mister X
        There is evidence that the command of the special forces of the United States considers the 6,5 mm ammunition no longer as automatic, but as a substitute for the NATO 7,62 cartridge for sniper rifles.

        What 6,5? a lot of them. There are 6,5x39, there are .260 Remington (6.5x51), there are 6,7x42 and many more are different ...
  2. bistrov.
    bistrov. 13 November 2017 07: 33
    +2
    Well, let's see what happens.
  3. Uncle lee
    Uncle lee 13 November 2017 07: 54
    +7
    It is unclear why this machine, if its full under the caliber of 7,62 and 5.45. And 5,56 are just about to switch belay
    1. AlexMark
      13 November 2017 08: 03
      +6
      Apparently end 5,45, which was shot, that sold, and there is no place to take new ones. With 7,62, I also think the situation is the same, if not now, it will be soon.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 13 November 2017 12: 30
        +3
        Quote: AlexMark
        With 7,62 I think the situation is the same, if not now, then it will be soon.

        It should also be taken into account that Ukraine was intensively selling the military heritage remaining to it from the USSR, including ammunition. In this case, there were incidents such as the disappearance of 25 (twenty-five million!) Rounds of caliber 000.
        It was established that due to the careless attitude of former senior officials of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine from 2000 to the present time at the SE “Oktyabrsk” Specialized Sea Port (Nikolaev Region) without proper accounting, protection and regime 50 million rounds of 7,62 rounds were storedwhich, under a commission agreement with the state company Ukrspetsexport, were intended for sale in one of the African countries, however, due to the imposition of an embargo on exports, they were not implemented.
        Conducted during the audit inventory of these weapons only half of their original quantity was recorded. No data on the location of the remaining cartridges. Thus, the state suffered losses in the amount of about 16 million UAH.
        In addition, in the open areas of the same seaport, more than 14 thousand unaccounted for ammunition boxes of various calibers were discovered, which arrived from the military units of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine in 1992, were not sold and were found to be substantially damaged over 22 years of storage in unsuitable conditions.

        And this is not Kiselev. This is an official statement by the Prosecutor General of Ukraine.
        1. AlexMark
          13 November 2017 13: 37
          +2
          Well, the fact that they are selling everything that is wrong is not news, it is strange that everyone sold it off ... Actually, 12,5 million is not such a big number for cartridges, if you estimate. In warehouses there should be much MUCH more, thanks USSR.
      2. Alf
        Alf 13 November 2017 23: 17
        0
        Quote: AlexMark
        and there’s nowhere to take new ones. With 7,62 I think the situation is the same, if not now, then it will be soon.

        Why nowhere? Russia will once again sell. Through intermediaries, it’s true, but you won’t do anything for the sake of money, because, as they say, money does not smell. There was recently a scandal over diesels ...
    2. Lopatov
      Lopatov 13 November 2017 09: 20
      +5
      Really incomprehensible.
      For Soviet ammunition they have enough Soviet rifle.
      For ammunition, NATO has purchased, if I am not mistaken, under Yushchenko, a license for Tavor. They were even produced in small batches ...
      Apparently, someone decided to earn 8)))
      1. avt
        avt 13 November 2017 09: 49
        +2
        Quote: Spade
        Really incomprehensible.

        wassat
        "Isaac, don't play the fool - they need Fedotov!"
        bully
        Quote: svp67
        This is just not strange. In Ukrainian reality, the main thing is not only money, but who will get it ....

        There is nothing more to add. request
      2. Alex_59
        Alex_59 14 November 2017 08: 22
        +2
        Quote: Spade
        Apparently, someone decided to earn 8))

        Hiding behind desovetization, moreover. It is very convenient and works. If someone tries to object, then just ask the question: do you want the European Ukrainian army to go with Russian machine guns? Are you for the Russians? And that’s it. There are no questions, everyone wants to live. It’s better to keep silent.
  4. DM51
    DM51 13 November 2017 07: 56
    +2
    There are no cartridge factories in Ukraine, and what will they buy millions of NATO cartridges from NATO? What kind of shisha? What can be the NATO standards in such conditions?
    1. AlexMark
      13 November 2017 08: 01
      +3
      They plan to provide financial assistance in the construction of a new ammunition plant. Accordingly, if the plans for the transition to NATO 5,56 and 7,62, it is logical to launch the lines of the new plant for these munitions, and not to retool later. request
  5. Magellan
    Magellan 13 November 2017 08: 00
    +4
    Yes, they will not build a cartridge plant there, there will be no investor who will risk tens of millions of dollars to build a plant in such an unstable situation. And just to give Ukraine the necessary amount for the construction of the plant - the Yankees and Europeans will not do it, they are capitalists, and they know the price, it’s not Russian Vanka, whom the pots could always put pity on their lamentations “Well, we are brothers! Help your brother! ", and Russian Vanka, as always, helped the Ukrainians, even if they didn’t spit in return instead of gratitude. By simply replacing weapons in the APU with a NATO standard, Ukrainians are firmly dependent on American deliveries of weapons and ammunition, arms and ammunition manufacturers in the United States get a new market, and this is a profit for them. Ukrainians will take new loans to buy weapons and ammunition, and Ukraine will fall into the bondage of the IMF and the EBRD even more. The sheer benefit. For the Yankees and Europeans, of course, but not by the Ukrainians themselves.
    1. AlexMark
      13 November 2017 08: 08
      +3
      As noted in the article, even the production of weapons can be organized in different ways. You can arrange the delivery of "modules" and a hundred people will simply gather them into a pile until the machine turns out, and you can fully deploy large-scale production. The first option is most likely.
      As for the cartridge plant, everything is vague, and only "in the plans." So you are probably right on 100%, but you still need to add to this the dependence on the delivery of "modules" for assembling weapons. That is, complete dependence on all sides.
      1. Magellan
        Magellan 13 November 2017 08: 13
        +4
        Judging by how all Ukrainian mriias and overhauls end with deafening bombs, I am 100% sure that no cartridge plant will be built there:
        If overload may not occur, it will not.

        Consequences:
        1. Any overwork requires more Maidan than you think. (efim_tellman)
        2. Peremoga, which starts well, ends always badly. (1991 and 2004)
        3. Peremoga, which starts badly, ends very badly. (1918, 1941, 2014)
        4. If the effort fails, then any attempt to save her will only worsen the matter.
        5. If things get worse, there is nowhere worse, in the very near future they will go even worse.
        6. The more complex and grander the mriya, the greater the chance that it will not come true.
        7. Any attempt to achieve overwhelming fruit. (efim_tellman)
        8. Hailing will occur even when it is absolutely impossible.
        9. Even if the zrad are mutually exclusive, they will all occur. (d3721)
        10. Of all the hauls that can occur, the first will occur, the damage from which will be greater.
        11. When the poles happen at the same time, they cause the effect of resonance resonance. (d3721)
        12. Each shifting can generate an infinite number of zrad, but not vice versa. (roineroyce)
        13. The chance of the onset of harassment is directly proportional to the desire to achieve change. (roineroyce)
        14. If four possible charges are averted, then the fifth will always happen. (efim_tellman)

        Pareto Law for Ukraine (need_forspeed):
        20% of attempts to achieve success will yield 80% of the raids, the remaining 80% - only 20% of raids.

        - Whatever the zrada, Muscovites always warned that it would be so.
        - If Murphy’s law for Ukraine may not work, it still works.
        1. AlexMark
          13 November 2017 08: 18
          +4
          In general, if you think about it, hostilities are going on in the country, changing shape, changing weapons, changing the devil knows that - and at whose expense is a banquet? Even the replacement of hats costs a lot of money, and really this money could not be spent on something more rational, what will be profitable? Even at least on the same ammunition plant.
          1. Magellan
            Magellan 13 November 2017 08: 27
            +1
            Some production in Ukraine is still preserved, and probably due to export of agricultural products, they earn good money, because it is a currency. Ukraine is one of the world leaders in grain exports.
          2. Egor-dis
            Egor-dis 13 November 2017 09: 32
            +2
            Quote: AlexMark
            and at whose expense is the banquet? Even replacing hats costs a lot of money

            And at the expense of the same overseas "comrades" who in the Weimar Republic (with inflation of thousands of percent) were able to change into the new uniform of the NSDAP fighters, and then provided them with their own production of military equipment and other nishtyaks.
            1. AlexMark
              13 November 2017 13: 56
              +2
              Well, as I understand it, "comrades" are waiting for returns, there is no oil, with current technologies, a thousand kilometers is not critical, what is the gain? psychologically?
              1. Egor-dis
                Egor-dis 15 November 2017 09: 08
                0
                Quote: AlexMark
                Well, as I understand it, "comrades" are waiting for returns, there is no oil, with current technologies, a thousand kilometers is not critical, what is the gain? psychologically?

                The Germans, when they were dragged into the power of the Nazis, also did not have oil. And the gain now is the same - to arrange tensions in the center of the European continent, try to draw all countries into it, and then make loot, first helping different sides of the conflict to fight, then rebuilding, eliminating geopolitical competitors along the way.
        2. Timofey
          Timofey 13 November 2017 15: 36
          0
          10. Of all the hauls that can occur, the first will occur, the damage from which will be greater.
          10.1 If you think that the rest of the bunkers will go with reduced damage, then you are mistaken, the damage will only increase (Paradox however!)
          - Whatever the zrada, the Muscovites always warned that it would be so.
          AXIOM: if Muscovites did not warn - it will be even worse
          paradox urainian: if nothing happened and no one warned (even Muscovites), and even if it was too much, it’s still ZRADA !!!
  6. medvedron
    medvedron 13 November 2017 08: 19
    +3
    Another washing of the headstock. If you make a cartridge factory, then why the heck under NATO standards since there are still enough Soviet weapons for grandchildren.
    1. Magellan
      Magellan 13 November 2017 08: 24
      +2
      Translating the APU under NATO standards, the Yankees expect to make money on the supply of weapons and ammunition to Ukraine. It’s as clear as God's day. That is why no one in Ukraine will build a cartridge plant, it is simply unprofitable for the Yankees. Ukrainians are now put in such a pose and crushed by such debts that they will do everything that the Americans tell them.
      1. medvedron
        medvedron 13 November 2017 21: 52
        +1
        Yes, it’s just understandable, I’m basically talking about the logic of their message about the construction of a cartridge factory, in the sense that they already completely hold on to their people.
  7. Liberal Zionist.
    Liberal Zionist. 13 November 2017 10: 35
    +2
    In general, to shoot old stocks of cartridges 7,62 × 39 could buy an AK-47. They are probably in Eastern Europe to hell and more. And they will sell them at the price of potatoes.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 13 November 2017 10: 53
      +1
      could buy an AK-47

      Why buy it?
      Although ... maybe for the time of independence, they all managed to sell off.
      Here, rather, another. The former Lviv firm had no experience in development, and therefore, with a probability of one, used the services of local developers. And there the Soviet cartridge in 5.45x39 is not at all popular, unlike 7.62x39
      1. AlexMark
        13 November 2017 11: 06
        +2
        Quote: Spade
        Although ... maybe for the time of independence, they all managed to sell off.

        I modestly will not express my opinion about the connection between the "sell off" and with regularly burning warehouses. I remember in one of the cases the OFFICIAL version was "smoked on the territory". good
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 13 November 2017 11: 23
          0
          Quote: AlexMark
          I modestly will not express my opinion on the connection between “sell out” and with regularly burning warehouses.

          Weapons depots didn’t seem to be burning, only ammunition.
    2. AlexMark
      13 November 2017 11: 07
      +2
      Yes, it seems, according to rumors, 7,62х39 are already in use, but it wasn’t there, so I don’t presume to say.
  8. Sands Careers General
    Sands Careers General 13 November 2017 10: 53
    +5
    Aby ne yak at Muscovites. I feel that this weapon will be rare rubbish.
    1. AlexMark
      13 November 2017 11: 12
      +2
      The weapon itself cannot be bad, it may not be intended for the conditions in which it is operated. When the task is to keep the defense at all costs in a trench knee-deep in the mud, when you need to move through the marshes to the waist in the water, the choice is obvious - AK with its immeasured mass of the barrier group, and therefore reliability. And when after aviation, artillery, armored vehicles to go through the ruins and finish off those who survived, then why not AR-like?
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 13 November 2017 11: 29
        +1
        Quote: AlexMark
        AK with its unmeasured mass of the bolt group,

        With a boot from all the dope on the handle of the bolt frame, not a single descendant of AR-15 can stand it
        1. AlexMark
          13 November 2017 11: 31
          +2
          The most important thing is to close the shutter, and then it works by itself. laughing
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 13 November 2017 11: 48
            0
            AK does not have a special button, through which it is possible to drive a dirty cartridge into the chamber, therefore, it is necessary to use brutal methods in the form of a "boot on the shutter frame"
            A dirty cartridge in a combat situation is a very common occurrence in a combat situation. Especially if you have developed an interesting habit of throwing empty stores under your feet when reloading.
      2. Sands Careers General
        Sands Careers General 13 November 2017 11: 30
        +4
        "Weapons alone cannot be bad."

        Oh oh Like any thing, weapons can be bad and good. By these terms I mean reliability, convenience, accuracy, workmanship, etc.

        AR-like weapons were used by cyborgs at the Donetsk airport. Did it help them?
        1. AlexMark
          13 November 2017 12: 30
          +3
          I feel that they boil a boiled carrot, but ... According to your parameters, reliability is AK, convenience is a matter of habit basically, accuracy is AR, quality is in most cases AR.
          But at the same time, is ultra-accuracy at maximum 150 meters necessary at a distance? And is it really important to the quality of the machined parts with the overall reliability in the most adverse conditions? On the other hand, is super-reliability needed under practically sterile conditions?
          1. Sands Careers General
            Sands Careers General 13 November 2017 12: 40
            +4
            In the targeted weapon there will be both super precision and super reliability. In any conditions.
            And in skillful hands and horseradish balalaika.

            Therefore, my choice is AK. With a gun, the choice is more difficult, but I like the PB, although I don’t disdain it with a macar. Like western weapons.
            But I would not use AR.
            1. AlexMark
              13 November 2017 12: 59
              +4
              AR-like machines are not as bad as is commonly believed. You can say this is an excellent weapon for the tactics of use in which this machine is used, so it is not necessary to him (her?) Negative attitude. And so yes, creaking of the soul, despite all the variety of high-quality and tasty, would choose AK laughing
              That's about the PB is not quite clear choice request IMHO highly specialized weapon with a rather complicated service. From the domestic, given the very rare use of short-barreled, "Gyurza" strongly impresses, despite the rarity of ammunition. As for me, the perfect army pistol.
              1. Sands Careers General
                Sands Careers General 13 November 2017 13: 05
                +4
                PB fits well in the hand. And the choice is not very wide with us.
                1. AlexMark
                  13 November 2017 13: 55
                  +2
                  Sorry, did not pay attention to your location. In fact, surprised that the PB is found.
                  1. Sands Careers General
                    Sands Careers General 13 November 2017 14: 28
                    +4
                    It is found. Many things. Before the war, we had a lot of weapons.
              2. Sergeantpro
                Sergeantpro 14 November 2017 02: 29
                +1
                In fact, the "Vector" is not as beautiful as we would like, and in general it is not as good as most people imagine it. Well, as an army pistol, he does not fit. But GSH-18 is quite functional, reliable and versatile.
  9. 236 BTR
    236 BTR 13 November 2017 14: 28
    0
    I think that the weak point here will be the resource of weapons, well, also savvy arrow
  10. Timofey
    Timofey 13 November 2017 15: 18
    0
    IMHO: What are we arguing about ???
    The rifle is mainly a defensive weapon (Mosin rifle, M-14 rifle, etc.)
    Automatic, mainly assault (AK, PPSh, PPS) or hybrids (Assault rifle (automatic) Heckler & Koch HK G36 series)
    For special conditions - your own (VAL, Whirlwind, etc.)
    Not one "designer" in history has been noted for a long time!
    In the case of WAC (other) 47- we also have our own (and eat a fish and get on the Christmas tree) and we’re saving NATO’s ammunition ... we’re licking both universality and logistics, CALIBER!!!)
    1. Monarchist
      Monarchist 13 November 2017 18: 32
      0
      But such names as: Browning, Karl Walter, Nagan, Kalashnikov have already immortalized themselves.
      Our Tokarev and Makarov also secured respect
  11. Monarchist
    Monarchist 13 November 2017 17: 44
    0
    Quote: Magellan
    By the beginning of the war, the troops had about 1,5 million military troops, which is a lot, almost all the divisions in the western districts were armed with standard military vehicles, the Germans were shocked by the abundance of self-loading rifles, many felt that "the Russians are fully armed with light machine guns." If you look at the pictures of those years, you can see the Germans with SVT behind their shoulders, which proves that the Germans respected SVT. At least you won’t see a German with a three-ruler over his shoulder. If you believe Isaev’s data, the cost of SVT was approximately 9 times higher than the cost of the three-ruler and comparable to the cost of DP, therefore, with the beginning of the war, the production of SVT was reduced, and in 1942 they completely turned it off, instead of SVT they began to stamp PCA, which produced 6 million pieces.

    But the "dad" was unpretentious and multi-charged, which in war conditions is expensive
  12. Monarchist
    Monarchist 13 November 2017 17: 54
    0
    Quote: Sands Career General
    In the targeted weapon there will be both super precision and super reliability. In any conditions.
    And in skillful hands and horseradish balalaika.

    Therefore, my choice is AK. With a gun, the choice is more difficult, but I like the PB, although I don’t disdain it with a macar. Like western weapons.
    But I would not use AR.

    General, I agree about AK, but somehow I doubt AB
  13. sibiryouk
    sibiryouk 13 November 2017 18: 24
    0
    With cartridge 7.62x39 - the American gas vent system will not work reliably! This cartridge is best designed for the Kalashnikov scheme.
  14. Monarchist
    Monarchist 13 November 2017 18: 40
    +1
    Quote: Spade
    Quote: AlexMark
    AK with its unmeasured mass of the bolt group,

    With a boot from all the dope on the handle of the bolt frame, not a single descendant of AR-15 can stand it

    So they were not created for these conditions. AR "Barchuk", and you want him with a boot. Yes, their creators will die three times then horror
  15. polpot
    polpot 13 November 2017 20: 14
    0
    The modern Ukrainian authorities are mankurts with the genes of Ellochka the Ogre-eating them the main machine is IMPORTED all the point, even if it is many times worse than AK.
  16. Sergeantpro
    Sergeantpro 14 November 2017 02: 06
    0
    Quote: alexmach
    Meaning they do an automatic machine under a Soviet cartridge then? What ended AKM and AK-74 in warehouses?

    It ends like ammunition. The cartridge factory is a much more complex "mechanism" than automobile production and or a refrigerator factory. Although they have problems with this.
    1. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 14 November 2017 08: 33
      0
      In fact, in their conditions, it’s more correct to switch precisely to 7,62x39, and not to 223/308
      And 7,62x39 cartridges are easier to buy or to build your own line
      Well, the fact that the rifle is worthless is a rollback and cut))) with an AMERICAN rifle it is easier to do, the American one, the owners!
  17. alex-cn
    alex-cn 14 November 2017 07: 41
    0
    I strongly suspect that the matter rests precisely in the ammunition and its price ... Until recently, I came across information that the price of our cartridge 7,62x39 is comparable to the price of their small-caliber. Allegedly, this was one of the reasons for the boom of our weapons in the United States.
  18. Savignon
    Savignon 14 November 2017 14: 02
    +1

    The new machine of Ukrain
  19. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 14 November 2017 19: 23
    0
    Quote: Magellan
    Well, yes, the Izhevsk arms factory produced 10-12 thousand Mosin rifles per day, which was enough to equip two divisions with rifles. Therefore, the liberal stories about one rifle for two, three or four are a blatant lie, nothing more, but there were enough small arms in the Red Army, the soldiers were all armed with rifles or PCA. Anyway, almost any weapon was enough: industry rhythmically produced guns, tanks, planes, machine guns, ammunition. What the Red Army lacked was trucks, armored personnel carriers, and tractors, but this shortfall was made up for by means of Lend-Lease.

    "Only in three border districts (PribOVO, ZAPOVO, KOVO) for 10
    the days of the war were lost and destroyed with the withdrawal of our troops
    several thousand wagons of artillery assets concentrated
    in district warehouses. Surviving documents indicate
    that only in 17 undermined warehouses of these districts were 6838
    weapons and ammunition wagons, incl. 442 freight cars
    artillery parts, 5814 ammunition wagons, 181 infantry wagons
    weapons, 401 wagons of various artifacts. "
  20. Grayish
    Grayish 15 November 2017 03: 30
    0
    Modern Ukraine cannot build anything, nor does it want to. She will not have this machine either. The situation is like with the T-84, the Tirex tank, the new MLRS (supposedly high-precision), etc. She's just half dead.
  21. voenkom21
    voenkom21 15 November 2017 17: 13
    +1
    M4 with a store from AK, clever bl.
  22. fa2998
    fa2998 16 November 2017 18: 11
    0
    Quote: bistrov.
    Well, let's see what happens.

    There will be extra costs. The modularity is good for home weapons - depending on who you hunt - put a suitable caliber and go. And the ammunition is different in the stores.
    But as the main weapon of the army, when massive ammunition is used, modular extra costs. Want to use old ammunition - shoot from old machine guns!
    And the new machines, as correctly noted in the article, need half to change! Moreover, hundreds of thousands of machine guns, and throwing-out such cartridges is no longer expected! fool hi
  23. Sergeantpro
    Sergeantpro 16 November 2017 19: 08
    0
    Quote: Monarchist
    So they were not created for these conditions.

    Now the army of the United States and Israel grin so nasty.
  24. Captain Nemo
    Captain Nemo 11 December 2017 20: 24
    0
    With such a height of the bracket under the calimator, I wonder what distance this miracle shoots at? And what if the enemy is closer or further?
  25. eye276
    eye276 23 December 2017 17: 46
    0
    badly forgotten SR-47, it’s the Reed Cave Destroyer released by the party no more than 10 pieces by order of the US MTR has acquired a new status, well, let's see what happens