Military Review

Sturmgever and stamping. The truth about the Kalashnikov machine (Part of 2)

153



In the receiver, figuratively speaking, housed the heart weapons - its automation, what ensured the reliability of its work.

M.T. Kalashnikov. "Notes designer gunsmith"

In the production of Stg-44, low-carbon, relatively thin steel 0,8-0,9 mm thick was used. Hence, a large number of stiffeners and stamps on its details, which increase the rigidity of the structure, and on the aesthetic side give a kind of predatory, awesome charm to the weapon as a whole.

We will not do a detailed and high-quality analysis of the Sturmgeverov "punching" lapses. We confine ourselves to two visual facts, especially since they had a solution in the Kalashnikov assault rifle.

The main detail of the sturgevever is a milled gate box,
Sturmgever and stamping. The truth about the Kalashnikov machine (Part of 2)
clad in sheet metal casing and bonded to it with spot welding.



The task of the box, in addition to reliable locking, is to ensure the basing of the magazine for reliable feeding of the cartridge into the chamber. Directly on the casing attached sighting device. And on the Mkb-42 (h), and on the STG-44 there were attempts to install removable riflescopes: one and a half ZF-41 and four-time ZF-4.







Both attempts were unsuccessful. This is due to the very "punching" of the casing, which did not provide the necessary rigidity, because of which, after several dozen shots or throwing the weapon on the floor, it was necessary to shoot it in a new way. So you can grunt as much as you like in optics on a sturmgevere, in real combat it was not used. Although it was technically possible to ensure the rigidity of the mounting of the optical sight, it was possible if its bracket was attached to the gate box, the truth for this might have been to increase it in size and weight. A significant positive moment in the optics of the Sturmgever is that it allows you to simultaneously use both sights - optical and open. This commonplace truth, which can cost a soldier life, was completely forgotten (or did not go to school) by our modern and not by our designers.

The second fact is connected with the fastening of the store in the bolt box, but at first some more from stories. When the Wehrmacht’s Oberst Friedrich Kittel’s weapons department developed the concept of weapons for an intermediate cartridge, it was supposed to replace them with submachine guns, rifles, carbines and light machine guns. The fact that the Sturmgever couldn’t be used to replace machine guns according to the intensity of the fire became clear when it was too late to drink Borjomi. But there is one interesting point. A machine gun or a bipod is required for shooting by machine guns, especially if the weight of the weapon exceeds five kilograms. So the use of the store as a stop is a fact.





As a result - the store's chat



due to the deformation of the metal on the store and the receiving window.



Stamping...

There is no substantial official information about the reliability of the Sturmgever, except for factory and field tests, where it has proved not to be brilliant. But there is a way to get a reliable idea about this issue. A couple of words from the theory of statistics. In order to understand what soup is cooked from, you do not need to eat the whole pan. One ladle is enough. We will interrogate such a ladle of confident users of the Sturmgever, they will tell us themselves. How? Very simple. There is such a person - Artem Drabkin, who created the site I remember, and on this site there are memories, including these same users. I found four, here are their opinions.


Ewert Gottfried


... In 1943, we received a new weapon - automatic carbines - storm troopers. We in the regiment carried out their army tests. Our battalion was the first to be fully equipped with assault rifles. This is a wonderful weapon that gave an incredible increase in combat capabilities! They had short ammunition, so that more ammunition could be taken. With her, each person became almost like a light machine gun. At first they had childhood diseases, but they were fixed. At first, we seized machine guns from us, but at the end of 1943, under Kolpino, we found that with these rifles, but without machine guns, we cannot do it in defense and very quickly put the machine guns back. So in the platoon were machine guns and assault rifles. We had no other weapons.


Kuhne Gunter

When I was captured, I had a sturmgever, a modern weapon, but he refused after three shots - sand fell.



Handt Dietrich-Konrad


We were armed by that time already with assault rifles 43, 15 (?) Of cartridges in the store. I think the Russians copied their Kalashnikovs from this rifle: they superficially look like twins. Very similar.
...
We were armed with the 43 assault rifle quite recently; we still didn’t have time to get used to the new weapon. I jerked the shutter, forgetting - from lack of sleep or whether God knows from what - that it is already charged. And the rifle wedged.



Damerius dieter


At first I had MP-38. Later there was a Sturmgever, it appeared in 1944. Even non-commissioned officers did not have it.
Etc.
Yes, it was a good weapon. I think that after the war these weapons were used in the Bundeswehr. His cartridges were a little smaller.


As you can see, in a random sample, half of the feedback responses are. The conclusion from this makes everyone for himself. It is obvious to me and simply confirms the own analysis of the design of the Sturmgever and the conclusion of General V.G. Fedorov: "The German automatic rifle does not deserve special attention from the point of view of its constructive qualities." Fans recommend to conduct a similar analysis on the site regarding the assessment of the use of the Soviet German captured weapons. Conclusions will be curious.

In the meantime, to summarize, one can sing the praises about the superiority of the German “stamping” 1942 of the year over the Soviet one in the 1949 year, but this very stamping was the source of the second problem of a stormtrooper - low reliability (the first is the lack of cartridges that no more than 2000 pieces were released) on one trunk). Americans, by the way, came to this conclusion in 1945 year. From the conclusion of the US arms department:

However, when trying to create with mass methods a light and precise weapon that possesses substantial firepower, the Germans faced problems that seriously limited the effectiveness of the Sturmgewehr assault rifle. Cheap stamped parts, of which it is largely composed, are easily subjected to deformation and chipping, which leads to frequent seizures. Despite the stated possibility of firing in automatic and semi-automatic modes, the rifle does not withstand continuous fire in automatic mode, which forced the leadership of the German army to issue official directives, ordering the troops to use it only in semi-automatic mode. In exceptional cases, soldiers are allowed to fire in fully automatic mode in short bursts of 2-3 shots. The possibility of re-using parts from serviceable rifles was neglected (interchangeability was not provided. - Author's note), and the general design hinted that in case of impossibility to use a weapon as intended, the soldier should have just thrown it away. The ability to fire in automatic mode is responsible for a substantial part of the weight of the weapon, which reaches 12 pounds with a full magazine. Since this opportunity cannot be fully exploited, this extra weight puts Sturmgewehr at a disadvantage compared to the US Army carbine, which is almost 50% lighter. The receiver, frame, gas chamber, housing and target frame are made of extruded steel. Since the trigger is fully assembled on the rivets, it is not dismountable; if repair is required, it is replaced entirely. Only the piston rod, bolt, hammer, barrel, gas cylinder, nut on the barrel and the magazine are machined. The stock is made of cheap, roughly treated wood and during the repair process creates difficulties in comparison with automatic machines with a folding stock.
.

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  1. alex-cn
    alex-cn 15 November 2017 07: 15
    +9
    Be that as it may, the SG 44 was the first truly functional assault rifle in the German army. Mauser and Walter self-loading carbines of 42 years are not considered. Another question is that the design was very crude. How many years have passed before the milled box was replaced with riveted in the AK? But the Germans were simply not given time to fine-tune.
    1. andrewkor
      andrewkor 15 November 2017 07: 54
      +8
      Nemchury didn’t have enough time for a lot of time, I agree with you, there was nothing to venture a gamble against the USSR. And so they grabbed all of Europe, just push the Britons and tryndets everything!
      1. Johns
        Johns 15 November 2017 13: 24
        +5
        Quote: andrewkor
        there was nothing to venture a gamble against the USSR. And so they grabbed all of Europe, push the Britons a little and tryndets everything!

        It is a pity that at a certain time you did not make your way to Hitler's place.
        1. andrewkor
          andrewkor 15 November 2017 17: 55
          +6
          I’m comfortable in my place, and Hitler was an adventurer of world scale, like an outstanding cheater who threw everyone, but also ended his life as a loser in smoke rolled! And the Alternative genre has the right to be, like all other genres.
    2. Mika_blin
      Mika_blin 15 November 2017 10: 51
      +4
      Well, the Germans did not plan to spend a long time on fine-tuning the stormtrooper. The design, as it were, hints to us that it was originally a weapon mobilizing according to the idea, designed to replace the more expensive rifles, PPs and light machine guns. From there, the use of low-alloy rolled products, and stamping from a thin sheet, tricks to preserve the details thus obtained. All plans for the “refinement”, known now, were implemented during the deployment of mass production.
      It is obvious that the Germans from the time of the tests knew perfectly well about all the shortcomings of the assault, and no worse than the American commission understood the almost absent modernization potential of its design. To replace it, they continued to create fundamentally different machines, their small-scale production was even begun.
  2. andrewkor
    andrewkor 15 November 2017 07: 51
    +2
    The first time he saw Sturmgever at the Museum of the Soviet Army in Moscow in 1971, while being fired, he was very surprised by the outward resemblance to AK, at that time there was no information, so think for yourself what’s what! The fly device was especially striking.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. alex-cn
        alex-cn 15 November 2017 13: 01
        +9
        Almost all the samples you named had locking by a skewed shutter ... What does it have to do with AK? repeat Moreover, he had the “happiness” to disassemble the shutter of the hunting semiautomatic device of Walther, the end of the thirties ... he barely assembled it back, a bunch of little things hell understand how interconnected ...
      2. Amurets
        Amurets 15 November 2017 13: 43
        +5
        Quote: A.W.S.
        The idea of ​​an automatic weapon for an intermediate cartridge was very popular. Moreover, General Fedorov, the father of the Soviet rifle, had long been talking about this.

        Well, for some reason. A self-loading and automatic weapon of 6,5 mm caliber was developed by Fedorov before the PMV, but the Fedorov cartridge was a full-fledged rifle cartridge of a reduced caliber, but not an intermediate cartridge in any way.http: //ww1.milua.org/bullets1916.htm
        http://ww1.milua.org/bullets1916.htm

        My works were recognized as important and valuable: they ended with the development of a new cartridge with a caliber of 6,5 mm. Preliminary tests yielded such favorable results that the Armory Department in 1913 decided to order 200 thousand of these cartridges according to my design for the widest verification, ”wrote V. G. Fedorov. But the PMV began and the Petersburg Cartridge Plant did not have time to begin production of these cartridges. But later he organized the production of cartridges 6,5x51 Arisaka. In 1916, Fedorov adapted his submachine gun under a 6,5 mm caliber cartridge for the Arisak rifle. "The choice of this caliber is explained by the fact that during the First World War Arisaka rifles and cartridges for them were supplied in large quantities for the Russian army from Japan, and the production of these cartridges was established at the St. Petersburg cartridge factory and in the UK.
        Shortening the barrel on his rifle of the 1913 model and equipping it with a removable box magazine for 25 rounds and a handle for shooting “from the hand”, he received the first model of weapons, which has become the basis of the infantry armament of any army today. It only remains to be amazed at the accuracy of the conclusions made by the Russian gunsmith: not an automatic rifle with its weight, long barrel, crushing recoil and sluggishness when meeting face to face; not a gun - a machine gun with its helplessness when firing at medium and long distances - namely, an automatic machine - a short-barreled weapon with a direct-shot range of about 300 meters, weighing about 5 kg and a rate of fire of about 100 rounds per minute - that is, what is called in Russian it’s automatic. "
        https://topwar.ru/129411-shturmgever-i-shtampovka
        -prodolzhenie.html
        1. andrewkor
          andrewkor 15 November 2017 17: 59
          +1
          Thanks for the information about Fedorov’s cartridge, I didn’t find it anywhere.
        2. John22
          John22 20 November 2017 13: 18
          +2
          Fedorov developed a 6,5x57x81 cartridge with a groove. In size, it resembled an M96 cartridge for the Swedish Mauser. But the power was about 3000 joules. Those. less than the cartridge for the Mosin rifle.
          1. Amurets
            Amurets 20 November 2017 14: 26
            0
            Quote: John22
            Fedorov developed a 6,5x57x81 cartridge with a groove. In size, it resembled an M96 cartridge for the Swedish Mauser. But the power was about 3000 joules.

            Yes. The power of the cartridge was about 3200J. It was a low-pulse rifle cartridge. Fedorov himself wrote about this.
      3. sibiryouk
        sibiryouk 15 November 2017 14: 00
        +6
        You are somewhat wrong, there were no German specialists in Kovrov (where Kalashnikov worked)! They all worked in Izhevsk. The German MP-44 assault rifle has a design different from the AK-47, and what did the Germans not repeat theirs if it was so good?
        1. GSPDJGneva
          GSPDJGneva 15 November 2017 17: 00
          +2
          Quote: sibiryouk
          and what did the Germans not repeat theirs if she was so good?

          Of course they repeated))) G3 and FN Fal are the direct successors of the shushpanchek
          1. andrewkor
            andrewkor 15 November 2017 18: 00
            +1
            But not in the USSR! And the Spanish Setme was directly developed by the Germans.
            е
          2. Dead duck
            Dead duck 15 November 2017 22: 23
            +5
            Quote: GspdjGneva
            Of course they repeated))) G3 and FN Fal are the direct successors of the shushpanchek

            the basis was different ...
          3. Timeout
            Timeout 16 November 2017 02: 09
            +3
            Quote: GspdjGneva
            Of course they repeated))) G3 and FN Fal are the direct successors of the shushpanchek

            To go nuts, but the men don’t know! But nothing that FN FAL is the daughter of "SVT", and the G3 is a half-free shutter?
      4. avt
        avt 15 November 2017 19: 06
        12
        Quote: A.W.S.
        It was then that Schmeiser, Grüner, and other German gunsmiths caught after May 1945 were taken to Kovrov, Izhevsk and forced to bring Soviet models to mind. It was this joint Soviet-German development that received the proud name Kalashnikov assault rifle of 1947. Does it have a certain sergeant "Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov" decide on the creation of AK 47 yourself.

        Another fool sick from the sect ,, Kalash Schmeiser "not reading the author’s articles, but drawing information from his own anal. bully Especially touching passages about the type of illiterate
        Quote: A.W.S.
        a sergeant "Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov"

        opposed to the genius of Schmeiser bully Koekaker, as a true sectarian, is not even embarrassed by the fact, well known from the biography of the subject of Schmeiser adoration, Schmeiser did not have a technical education, from a word in general. Well, sectarians, just reconcile with the idea that in terms of classical education Schmeiser did not have advantages over Grandfather Misha, from the word in general. bully
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Dead duck
          Dead duck 15 November 2017 22: 25
          +7
          Quote: avt
          Another illness from the sect, Kalash Schmeiser, which did not read the author’s articles, but draws information from his own anal. Passages about the type of illiterate are especially touching

          Yes, these are the same as the screamers about RD-180, which is like Amer.
      5. mat-vey
        mat-vey 17 November 2017 19: 09
        +1
        Quote: A.W.S.
        German gunsmiths were taken to Kovrov

        At least one who was taken to the Carpets ...
        Do you even know about the military tests of the AS-44? And that Kalashnikov replaced Sudaev?
      6. Awaz
        Awaz 21 November 2017 21: 03
        +2
        Kalashnikov began to work on his machine gun completely different from the stormtrooper technology. In AKM, there is nothing from the stormtrooper, except for the idea and the fly, for which for some reason everyone rushes. Kalashnikov also did not intersect in any way with Schmeiser. I read some statements by Schmeiser on how weapons were made in the USSR, that is, what he saw when they brought him. And he himself admitted that he had nothing to do with AKM, although he had been actively working in Izhevsk for 10 years. He was interesting to the Soviet side as the holder of patents for some interesting developments. However, AKM does not contain anything from a storm trooper.
        1. The comment was deleted.
    2. brn521
      brn521 15 November 2017 11: 50
      +3
      Quote: andrewkor
      I was very surprised by the external similarity with AK

      Is logical. In the 60s there was no internet. Why is there Internet, not everyone had a TV. And in the libraries on the subject mostly featured pioneer brochures sometimes with completely fabulous content. AK just came out of the shadows and was presented as an advanced weapon, a brilliant design solution that has no analogues, etc. etc. And then you come to the museum, and there is something very similar in format, but German and earlier.
      1. andrewkor
        andrewkor 15 November 2017 12: 03
        +1
        Thank you for your support, otherwise the youth completely went awry!
      2. DimerVladimer
        DimerVladimer 15 November 2017 13: 58
        +5
        Quote: brn521
        Is logical. In the 60s there was no internet. Why is there Internet, not everyone had a TV. And in the libraries on the subject mostly featured pioneer brochures sometimes with completely fabulous content. AK just came out of the shadows and was presented as an advanced weapon, a brilliant design solution that has no analogues, etc. etc. And then you come to the museum, and there is something very similar in format, but German and earlier.


        As a schoolboy, he instructed the boys that it was not a “Schmeiser”, but the MP-40 Erma, and Schmeiser was StG44 - the question followed - what is STG ??? : -0
        Who wanted to know.
      3. sibiryouk
        sibiryouk 15 November 2017 14: 03
        +4
        And even without the Internet, just try to parse both machines and you will immediately see a lot of differences! And outwardly, Moskvich-2140 is similar to RENAULT, only the filling is different.
        1. The comment was deleted.
      4. Grumant
        Grumant 15 November 2017 17: 17
        +9
        It seems that the fly has some kind of magical effect. In your opinion, if a person has a large, hunchbacked nose, is he definitely an Armenian? I revised the drawings of both products many times, the front sight is the only thing that they have in common. And nothing more, from the word at all !!!
        1. mat-vey
          mat-vey 17 November 2017 19: 11
          +1
          Moreover, the "flies" are structurally completely different ..
        2. Awaz
          Awaz 24 November 2017 16: 31
          +1
          The most interesting thing is that during WWII, the USSR never tried (well, maybe I tried, but I didn’t hear) to produce some Wehrmacht weapon. The Germans did not only produce Grabin’s guns, but also PPSh and even tried T 34 and something else ... And even PPSh they still couldn’t set up production, but this was the simplest unit of primitive design ..
  3. Nasty
    Nasty 15 November 2017 09: 15
    +6
    Quote: andrewkor
    The first time he saw Sturmgever at the Museum of the Soviet Army in Moscow in 1971, while being fired, he was very surprised by the outward resemblance to AK, at that time there was no information, so think for yourself what’s what! The fly device was especially striking.

    Another victim of envious western propaganda. Seeing the "gelding", surprised at the similarity to our cars. 4 wheels, interior in the middle, gasket between the seat and the steering wheel ... Copied, sss ... Rather, the AR-15 is similar to the Stg in its middle part especially. Yes, and a bullet flies out of the hole.
    1. andrewkor
      andrewkor 15 November 2017 11: 17
      +5
      Well, you, great-natured one, take a close look at the year. What was Western propaganda in those days, the Iron Curtain, the jammed, overfilled Freedom, America, the Vatican and the Chinese. Live with me, then troll!
      1. Kibb
        Kibb 15 November 2017 11: 36
        +1
        Well, explain WHAT, how do they look like? So they look alike too?
        1. Egor-dis
          Egor-dis 15 November 2017 12: 49
          +3
          Quote: Kibb
          Well, explain WHAT, how do they look like? So they look alike too?

          But like this?
          1. Kibb
            Kibb 15 November 2017 16: 39
            +1
            Here, too, I do not see anything particularly similar.
            1. Egor-dis
              Egor-dis 16 November 2017 09: 33
              +1
              Quote: Kibb
              Here, too, I do not see anything particularly similar.

              Probably look the other way. Or, the technique is not yours. wink
              1. Kibb
                Kibb 17 November 2017 09: 46
                0
                Just a snake - that is, my first photo, did you find the similarity between StH and AK?
                1. Egor-dis
                  Egor-dis 18 November 2017 08: 56
                  +1
                  Quote: Kibb
                  Just a snake - that is, my first photo, did you find the similarity between StH and AK?

                  Between Shtug and M-16 - yes.
          2. Awaz
            Awaz 24 November 2017 16: 34
            0
            go nuts)))) I never thought that nevertheless we couldn’t make a better weapon ourselves and stole it from the Germans. Along the way, they poked at the Germans, just as now they are trying to tidy up the best with us
  4. creak
    creak 15 November 2017 09: 38
    +9
    It’s not worth the author to cast a shadow on the fence and examine the STG-43 under a microscope and draw various testimonies ... For its time, the creation of this weapon was a serious step forward and a significant achievement of the German weapons school, but like any novelty it could not do without " childhood diseases "- this often happened with our inventions ... Our teaching staff, which appeared at about the same time as his German brother, also more than once became one of the best WWII submachine guns - it took time to bring him to mind .. .
    Well, the “argument” about the Germans using captured Soviet weapons is simply an overkill in the direction of cheers-patriotism .... Using captured weapons is a common practice in any war - my father, who went through the entire war in the infantry, did not part with Walter, just like many of his colleagues, armed with Walthers and Lugers .... If necessary, German machine guns were used in defense to increase the density of fire, especially the MG-42, and at the end of the war, faustpatrons, because we simply didn’t have anything like that ...
    And although as we see the author himself from Izhevsk, this explains a lot, nevertheless, when preparing such articles, you still need to go beyond the framework of objectivity and deliberation ...
    1. bunta
      15 November 2017 10: 28
      13
      Have you already read all the German memories of captured weapons ?! I only suggested reading and doing the analysis, not to mention the essence of the analysis and what the Germans generally talked about about Soviet weapons there. And you already conclude about my cheers-patriotism.
      As for the “step forward” - the step forward was the concept of the weapon that Kittel’s overshot struck, it was he who should get all the laurels in the field of creating weapons under an intermediate cartridge. Schmeisser in his style has arrogated to himself the merits of the "creator" (it is not clear what the truth is). He credited himself only MP-18.
      As for the "childhood diseases", I will leave them for the next article. Too much material on Schmeisser-designer as a complete lack of talent. You just need to be able to distinguish between "childhood diseases" and the possibility of treating them from design flaws or worse, the complete unsuitability of those who undertook the development of weapons.
      1. creak
        creak 15 November 2017 14: 34
        +2
        [quote = bunta] Have you already read all the German memories of captured weapons?! [/ quote]
        And you? [quote = bunta]
        [quote = bunta] Too much stuff on Schmeisser constructor as a complete lack of talent [/ quote]
        Well, in order to make such statements one must at least be recognized as an authority - nevertheless, such "mediocrity" as Schmeisser is known not only to specialists, but you cannot say that about you ... Perhaps you and your inventions are classified and have not yet arrived at armament of the RF Armed Forces? Waiting, sir ...
        Therefore, to continue the discussion about who read how many books and memories I don’t see the point ....
        1. bunta
          15 November 2017 20: 40
          +9
          Why, then, started a showdown in the bushes? I “blame” Schmeisser on the basis of the knowledge that I received in my specialty - automatic devices for small arms. In contrast, let’s say Maxim Popenker, whom many, many consider "recognized authority."
          I have experience in putting civil and military equipment into production; I am professionally engaged in system analysis and programming. My articles from this site are read by people who have been using my developments every day for 15 and even more years. And if they have a doubt in my abilities as a developer, let them speak right here. I do not hide my real name or even appearance.
          If possible, I recheck every fact according to the article from various sources and am responsible for each letter in the article. My calculations are confirmed from documents and calculations.
          In my statement about Schmeisser as mediocrity, I am ready to admit my ardor for "too much material." The article will be based on an analysis of only two of his patents. It'll be enough.
          If there are objections to the facts about which I spoke in the article - present. And to draw conclusions from them - it already depends on everyone. A person either understands technology and then he either agrees, or objectively argues, or he is a lawyer.
          1. not main
            not main 15 November 2017 22: 10
            +4
            Quote: bunta
            either he is a lawyer.

            And now we have 80 percent of lawyers! There are no techies, the Soviet are "surviving", and the modern ones are mostly "victims of the USE" Of course, there are exceptions. But they only confirm the rule!
      2. avt
        avt 15 November 2017 19: 10
        +4
        Quote: bunta
        Too much material on Schmeisser-designer as a complete lack of talent.

        wassat Heretic! ON THE COSTER OF THE BLESSTER! bully
        Quote: ranger
        Well, in order to make such statements, one must at least be recognized as an authority - nevertheless, such "mediocrity" as Schmeisser is known not only to specialists, but you cannot say that about you ...

        Phew! It’s easier ... Well, firewood for the bonfire has already begun to be offered - not everything is lost bully
    2. Awaz
      Awaz 24 November 2017 16: 37
      +1
      but the Germans produced PCA, at least they tried. The USSR did not produce German assault rifles. Just as he did not produce German guns and did not try to build tanks on German patterns. And the Germans really thought about the production of T 34. Only Panthers, which have a serious similarity and performance characteristics with the T 34, did not work out, however, the Germans didn’t manage to mass-produce PPS as well, and in the USSR, almost all women and teenagers assembled these machines in the open air on their knees
  5. DesToeR
    DesToeR 15 November 2017 09: 42
    +6
    Quote: andrewkor
    I was very surprised at the outward resemblance to AK, at that time there was no information, so think for yourself what’s what! The fly device was especially striking.

    Well, if by the device of the front sight we judge the similarity of the design, then the stormtrooper is a complete copy of the SVT-40
    1. andrewkor
      andrewkor 15 November 2017 11: 26
      +1
      Well, what did you get to the impressions of the 18-year-old Soviet guy who first came to Moscow from Siberia for the first time in his life, and that was only due to his military draft. Here and shine, along with Prativny, your 21st century erudition!
  6. Flying Dutchman
    Flying Dutchman 15 November 2017 09: 56
    +7
    Here I read and marvel at one thing: how is it, by the principle of StG automation, so different from the Soviet ABT, ABC, SVT, SVS, which were developed earlier by StG? Actually, I am not struck by the principle of automation, but by the stupidity of those who claim that the Nazis were the first to develop this principle. By the way, in the USSR in the 20s they came to the conclusion that an intermediate cartridge (Gen. Fedorov) was necessary, but then the point of view of Mr. Tukhachevsky won: a bullet from an automatic machine should penetrate the tank’s armor, why the intermediate cartridge in the USSR was adopted in 1943 g., and the Soviet SKS-43 on the principle of the operation of automation (like AVT, ABC, SVT, SVS) did not differ from StG, and SKS did not differ in the type of cartridge. By the way, in reality, the StG fire did not in any way surpass the Soviet PPSh and PPS.
    1. Johns
      Johns 15 November 2017 13: 39
      +2
      Quote: Flying Dutchman
      How is it, by the principle of StG automation, so different from the Soviet ABT, ABC, CBT, CBC that were developed earlier by StG?

      One simple but fundamentally important detail - the StG44 did not have a gas tap.
      Nevertheless, ABT, ABC, CBT should not be compared with StG44, but with M1 Garand. This is the "mother" of all full-fledged self-loading rifles with a gas engine.
      Quote: Flying Dutchman
      By the way, in the USSR back in the 20s they came to the conclusion that an intermediate cartridge was needed (Gen. Fedorov)

      This is not true. Yes, at one time Fedorov was able to push his squalor to the level of production. But in time thought better of it, lucky.
      Quote: Flying Dutchman
      but then the point of view of la Tukhachevsky won: a bullet from an automatic machine should penetrate the armor of a tank,

      Bosh what.
      Quote: Flying Dutchman
      and the Soviet SKS-43 did not differ from the StG by the principle of automation (like AVT, ABC, SVT, SVS), and the SKS did not differ in cartridge type either.

      Actually, SCS is a self-loading weapon. A StG44, automatic. Did you notice the difference?
      Quote: Flying Dutchman
      By the way, in reality, the StG fire did not in any way surpass the Soviet PPSh and PPS.

      And this is not just nonsense.
      Although, perhaps you had in mind the range of aimed automatic fire (if we mean NORMAL PP, and not something like PPSh / PPS). Then everything is true, the StG44, like the AK-74 / AK / AKM, this range was about 100 m.
      1. beeper
        beeper 15 November 2017 22: 14
        +6
        Jonesy, why is it so peremptory about the Garanda rifle, and so right away there is the "mother" of self-exercises, "full-fledged (??? and what do you think are" inferior ")" ?! smile
        Mondragon self-loading rifle then who is "great-grandmother" to them? yes
        Therefore, you are funny, "witnesses of Schmeisser (and now Garanda?)" ... but aplomb, aplomb above the roof?
      2. Amurets
        Amurets 16 November 2017 02: 58
        +1
        Quote: Johns
        Actually, SCS is a self-loading weapon. A StG44, automatic. Did you notice the difference?

        The difference was noticed by the Chinese and on the basis of SCS created their own Type-63/68 machine gun.
        http://www.armoury-online.ru/articles/ar/cn/type6
        3/
        "An automatic carbine (automatic) for the People's Liberation Army of China (PLA) began to be designed in 1959. In 1963, to replace the semi-automatic Type 56 carbine, a Type 63 carbine was created, which had the ability to fire bursts. In 1968, an automatic carbine was adopted at armament of the PLA, in connection with which Type 63 is designated by Western experts as Type 68.
        The Type 63 / Type 68 automatic carbine is interesting in that it is a mixture of several other designs and original solutions. Externally, Type 63 strongly resembles a Soviet-designed Simonov SKS carbine manufactured in China under the designation Type 56, but at the same time has a locking circuit inherited from an AK, manufactured in China under a license also under the designation Type 56. At the same time, the Type 63 automatic carbine had and a number of individual features. "
    2. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 15 November 2017 13: 49
      +3
      Quote: Flying Dutchman
      By the way, in reality, the StG fire did not in any way surpass the Soviet PPSh and PPS.


      Why such a conclusion?
      PPSh PPS - further than 100-150 m - bullet energy quickly drops, weak pistol cartridge 7.62x25TT
      bullet energy 480-700 J bullet mass 5,49-5,52

      Small arms fire was usually used at a range of not more than 600-800 m (with the exception of easel machine guns). At this distance, the bullets of the intermediate cartridge pierce three pine boards 2,25 cm thick, that is, they have an energy of about 196 J.
      7.62x39 bullet energy about 2200 J, mass 6,6-12,6
      That is, the effective firing range is double!

      Assuming a combat situation - an enemy with StG44 can already open fire from 400 meters away, and they will be answered with rare shots from the Mosin rifle - with one StG, it will give fire density like 6 mosin rifles!
      And only from a distance of 200-150 m PPSh will become effective, and PPS even less from 150-100 m - he had problems with stability (accuracy) when shooting, he did not have a translator for a single fire.
      So the intermediate cartridge was not too inferior to the rifle (2/3 of the energy), but 2-3 times superior to the pistol.
      By the way, they would have listened to Fedorov - having switched to an intermediate cartridge based on 6,5 × 50 mm Arisaka - then he would still be relevant for both support weapons and assault rifles.
      The current trend is the transition to 6.5-6.7 mm caliber.
      1. NG inform
        NG inform 16 November 2017 01: 57
        +1
        The Arisaki cartridge was not suitable for automatic weapons in form.
        1. Amurets
          Amurets 16 November 2017 03: 19
          0
          Quote: NG inform
          The Arisaki cartridge was not suitable for automatic weapons in form.

          But what about Fedorov’s weapon? Due to the fact that it was not possible to organize the production of Fedorov 6,5x51 cartridges, he had to adapt his weapon to the cartridge of Arisak.

          cartridge Arisaka.
          1. Amurets
            Amurets 16 November 2017 03: 37
            0
            Quote: Amurets
            cartridge Arisaka.

            But the drawing of the cartridge Fedorov
            Fedorov had to redo the chamber under the patron Arisak
            1. mat-vey
              mat-vey 17 November 2017 19: 27
              +2
              So Fedorov initially made a self-loading rifle with a completely different aiming range ... and having already been at the forefront, he was one of the first to realize that with machine guns, personal weapons no longer require such a range when firing in one gulp, and volley fire itself is not needed ... but you need the ability to shoot on the move with your hands and the density of fire with a range of 400-500 meters .. here and redid his self-loading for an automatic, since there was a suitable cartridge - Petersburg "Arisaka" (he set up production himself) ... And the French before that " reached "but in to soon ended, and alas, alas ..
  7. Kibb
    Kibb 15 November 2017 11: 29
    +1
    [quote = Flying Dutchman Actually, I am not surprised at the principle of automation, but at the stupidity of those who claim that the Nazis were the first to develop this principle. [/ quote]
    Sorry, but where and when did you see such allegations?
  8. andrewkor
    andrewkor 15 November 2017 11: 46
    +1
    D.N. Bolotin in his book "Soviet Small Arms" quotes the resolution of the Artillery Committee of the Red Army on February 27, 1928: "... to lighten the weight of automatic rifles, you will have to go to reduce the caliber, apparently, you need to switch to a caliber of 2,5 lines (5,35mm.). This issue is being worked out and will probably be resolved with the approval of the USSR Strategic Missile Forces new weapons system. "(VIMAIVS, f.6r, op.1, d.555, l.11).
    We in this direction were close to completion in 1939.
    1. Johns
      Johns 15 November 2017 13: 41
      0
      Quote: andrewkor
      Work in this direction was close to completion in 1939.

      Well, at least they did not end. Another 5,35 mm caliber RKKA was just not enough. Then there would be nothing to fight at all.
      1. andrewkor
        andrewkor 15 November 2017 18: 12
        +1
        So, the economy dictated its laws over all kinds of Wishlist until the Vietnam War struck with the debut of a new world trend, a low-impulse cartridge, and the practical and theoretical base was already ready in the USSR. Everything has its time.
      2. Amurets
        Amurets 16 November 2017 05: 06
        0
        Quote: Johns
        Well, at least they did not end. Another 5,35 mm caliber RKKA was just not enough. Then there would be nothing to fight at all.

        Here it’s not necessary to cling to the caliber, but to delve into the order, according to which they evaded the multi-caliber weapons. So the decision adopted in 1924, all weapons were designed under the cartridge 7,62RX54 model 1908. Since the supply of the Red Army was hampered by a variety of rounds: Lewis-7,71mm; Arisaka and Fedorov-6,5mm machine gun. Hotchkiss and Madsen, depending on the manufacturer. The Russian army was given everything that the allies in the WWI did not need. Look, the machine guns of the Russian army in battle.
    2. Kurdyukov
      Kurdyukov 15 November 2017 19: 48
      +1
      Typo: 2,5 lines 6,35 mm
  9. mavrus
    mavrus 15 November 2017 12: 01
    +1
    Quote: alex-cn
    Be that as it may, the SG 44 was the first truly functional assault rifle in the German army. Mauser and Walter self-loading carbines of 42 years are not considered. Another question is that the design was very crude. How many years have passed before the milled box was replaced with riveted in the AK? But the Germans were simply not given time to fine-tune.

    Really workable, probably was the FG-42 paratrooper rifle, which is still admirable for gun lovers ...
    1. Kibb
      Kibb 15 November 2017 12: 08
      +1
      The FG-42 is still not the same class of weapon, and it has a lot of shortcomings, but it worked like that.
      Here you have completely automatic machines and even quite under intermediate cartridges
    2. avt
      avt 15 November 2017 19: 14
      +1
      Quote: mavrus
      FG-42, still admirable among gun lovers ...

      As a really rare, and now even an antique weapon. Yes - a beautiful barrel, but somehow, due to the small series, it is difficult to judge the actual operation in the army.
  10. burigaz2010
    burigaz2010 15 November 2017 12: 08
    +3
    Hello countryman !! Here to whom it proves, it is clear that AK is a clone of the stormtrooper !!!! There is a butt barrel pistol grip, but the store also looks like!
  11. mavrus
    mavrus 15 November 2017 12: 26
    +1
    Quote: A.W.S.
    Well, the course of events is understandable: at the beginning of 1943, experimental models of the assault rifles of Walter and Mauser fell into the hands of the Soviet command. I liked the idea of ​​automatic weapons under an intermediate cartridge, moreover, the father of the Soviet rifle general, General Fedorov, said about this for a long time.
    In July 1943, at a special meeting of the People's Commissariat of Arms, a discussion was held of German automatic carbines MKb.42 (H) of 7,92x33 mm caliber (diameter of the sleeve base 11,9 mm), which fell to the Soviet troops on the Volkhov Front in the winter of 1942-1943, and US M1 Carbine carbines of 7,62x33 mm caliber (base diameter 9,04 mm). Based on the results of the discussion, it was decided to create a weapon of a similar class, with an effective firing range of about 400-500 meters, and to develop a new cartridge for it.
    Accordingly, already in 1943 a prototype of the cartridge 7,62x41 (yes, 41) was created and in 1944-45 a number of experimental models: AC-44s, automatic machines of Bulkin, Simonov, Shpagin, Tokarev, Korovin ... Not a single prototype of the Sturmgever level I didn’t reach it. The constructions were very “raw.” Then Schmeiser, Grüner and other German gunsmiths caught after May 1945 were taken to Kovrov, Izhevsk and forced to bring Soviet models to mind. It was this joint Soviet-German development that got its proud name "Kalashnikov assault rifle of the 1947 model." Does any sergeant "Mikhail T mofeevich Kalashnikov "relates to an AK 47 decide.

    As far as I understood, there were no German gunsmiths in Kovrov, they all worked at Izhmash, and in Kovrov there was only a “certain sergeant” design bureau, created drawings and the first AK-47 prototypes, which it was decided to put into mass production in Izhevsk . Yes, no one hides that the German gunsmiths helped our technologists to establish those. equipment for mass production ...
    1. Nekarmadlen
      Nekarmadlen 15 November 2017 12: 50
      0
      As Soviet legends told, Mikhail Timofeevich either found an abandoned one or got a trophy Sturmgever and he set out to do the same thing only better for the Soviet Army .. One way or another, he managed to do it .. If the German designers helped, they thanked them with dignity, rather than being kept in camps and not starving .. So Sturmgever is certainly a conceptual framework for AK, although of course the designs are different ...
      1. beeper
        beeper 16 November 2017 00: 01
        +4
        (Auto) biography (there are also his personal memoirs, without idle "legends") by M.T. Kalashnikov, like (auto) biographies of many other (legendary and little-known, even before all the books of Nagaev, I came across in the early 70s a small, but very interesting winked a book by Mikhail Vladimirovich Margolin- “I am still a soldier” —in it he talks about his work at the training ground, and, by the way, he also recalls Mikhail Timofeevich with great warmth .... I recommend that you read, you won’t regret) gunsmiths are no longer secret, you can (if you want?) to get acquainted in details ... smile
        NIPSVO, where after a serious wound and the presented sample of the original submachine gun of its own design, received (on the recommendation of Academician A.A. Blagonravov) the opportunity to serve as a novice weapon designer-sergeant M.T. Kalashnikov, had constantly replenished (trophy, Lend-Lease and domestic serial and experimental specimens) the technical base with existing samples of all known samples of small arms — they could and should have been studied, disassembled, assembled, analyzed design and technical test the environmental decisions, the materials used, by shooting ... So do not hesitate, M.T. Kalashnikov had the opportunity to go into the "weapons" of the training ground and "find" the necessary samples to familiarize themselves with the evolution of German "machine guns (this later they have already been called "storm troopers" - according to German legend, the Reichsführer came up with this name) under the 7,92x33mm cartridge, but he wrote and said in an interview that while working on his self-loading carbine he creatively rethought the locking unit and the design of the rifle "Garand M1", and in his AK took Anke USM Czech "ZB-26". He also mentioned the friendly advice of his more experienced fellow gunsmiths, a roommate in the training ground of the KB Sudaev Alexei Ivanovich, as well as Deikin Vladimir Sergeyevich and Lyuty Vassily Fedorovich. They worked out the drawings and layouts of competitive AK samples together with the designer Alexander Alekseevich Zaitsev ... in his memoirs, Mikhail Timofeevich surnames lists many of those who directly helped him create his debut submachine gun, as well as his comrades-in-arms for the creation and implementation of all modifications famous AK and PC, and expresses gratitude to all the factory workers, whom I could not name by name, since the experts who have put their work and thoughts into creating and improving the AK are very, very many wow. I understand that the Author of this Article has also contributed to the improvement and production of Kalashnikov samples ...
        Maybe the German designers and technologists invited to work out Hitler’s honor could at least somehow redeem their participation in the villainous aggression and the killing caused by the “bosses” on our land, but in their involvement in secret developments (and the automatic competition and fine-tuning the winner it’s just such a sample) I “really, really doubt it”, that is, I absolutely don’t admit such a probability (my father was left to serve in Germany after the Victory, so he said that when they shot from a secret SCS, they caught pi otkoy sleeves and did not leave the shooting range until it finds all flown away, and here the Germans and to the holy of holies-design to allow ?!)))) yes, yes, and why would we have our cadres in the Union, not worse, but better, “Fedorov’s nestlings” - under the intermediate Simonovsky SKS-45 was already in the series, the tarry future RPD-49 was also worked out by Sudaev’s submachine guns, variations AS-44, they were practiced with might and main (for some reason, we forget the experienced gunsmith Tokarev Fyodor Vasilyevich, because he also designed the machine for an intermediate cartridge, all such a completely milled, solid ... but the competition did not pass)!
        If we start from the basics, it’s more correct to say that the conceptual basis of the Soviet AK, like the German “storm trooper”, was the Russian Fedorov assault rifle yes
        hi
      2. mat-vey
        mat-vey 17 November 2017 19: 38
        +1
        Quote: Nekarmadlen
        As Soviet legends told, Mikhail Timofeevich either found an abandoned one or got a trophy Sturmgever

        What are the "Soviet" in the 90s?
        1. NG inform
          NG inform 18 November 2017 02: 23
          +2
          A special highlight is that he simply officially had access to all possible samples of such weapons.
          Moreover, the engineer who will develop the device without studying the existing samples, if this is possible, is simply incompetent.
    2. Johns
      Johns 15 November 2017 13: 43
      +1
      Quote: mavrus
      Yes, no one hides that the German gunsmiths helped our technologists to establish those. equipment for mass production ...

      This recalls the story of how to cut 6th grade "helped" PTUshnik "make a plan."
  12. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 15 November 2017 13: 04
    +5
    "As you can see, in a random sample, half of the feedback about the rejection" ////

    But what kind of failure?
    "I jerked the shutter, forgetting - from lack of sleep or whether God knows why - that it is already charged."
    Mistake of a soldier when working with new weapons
    "but he refused after three shots - hit the sand."
    At that time, the ingress of sand led to the failure of almost any weapon.

    "This is a great weapon, giving an incredible increase in combat capabilities!"
    Yes, it was a good weapon. I think that after the war these weapons were used in the Bundeswehr. "

    Even your random sample indicates that the STG-44 is a good weapon
    and a big step forward in arming the infantry.
    And the general concept of Kalashnikov: automatic weapons under an intermediate cartridge
    taken undoubtedly from STG-44
    1. CRP
      CRP 15 November 2017 13: 24
      +2
      Quote: voyaka uh

      And the general concept of Kalashnikov: automatic weapons under an intermediate cartridge
      taken undoubtedly from STG-44


      So the AR-15 is also a concept from STG or AK. What about this, no one is outraged?
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 15 November 2017 15: 05
        +3
        The Americans have a different concept, arising from a different battle tactic.
        AR-15 - M-16 - the consistent development of Garand and M-14.
        A rifle with a long barrel, high accuracy, BUT with the possibility of automatic fire.
      2. Kibb
        Kibb 15 November 2017 16: 45
        +1
        [/ Quote]

        So the AR-15 is also a concept from STG or AK. What about this no one is outraged? [/ Quote]
        1. The concept is slightly different
        2 .And who is outraged - it was never hid or criticized
    2. Mika_blin
      Mika_blin 15 November 2017 15: 23
      +2
      The general concept of "automatic weapons under an intermediate cartridge" was known long before Stg. And even to the Kurzpatron Polte.
      The Stg-44’s overall concept was a little different: "an automatic weapon under an intermediate cartridge, capable of replacing all magazine, self-loading and automatic rifles, light machine guns and submachine guns in the army, while being cheaper in mass production, especially in wartime".
      The Soviet military did not accept this concept. And Kalashnikov, like other participants in post-war contests, was not guided by him. The GRAU required to create, under an intermediate cartridge, not one single universal “automatic weapon”, but a complex of a self-loading carbine (rifle), RP and an assault rifle. And no one tried to make all these weapons out of tin can, like Stg: the Soviet military believed that they paid too stingy twice.
      Life has shown that the Germans were rather right in the formation of the concept, and the post-war Soviet concept was too conservative. However, the fact remains that our concept of a small arms complex was completely independent.
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 15 November 2017 15: 28
        +1
        "" automatic weapon under an intermediate cartridge, capable of replacing the troops
        all magazine, self-loading and automatic rifles, light machine guns and
        submachine guns, while being cheaper in mass production,
        especially in wartime "////

        "The Soviet military did not accept this concept. And Kalashnikov,
        like other participants in post-war contests, they were not guided by "///

        Here are those on ??? belay AK replaced EVERYTHING in the Soviet army. And replaces so far! fellow Machine gun - the same AK with an elongated and thickened barrel.
        USSR STRICTLY embodied the concept of Stg-44.
        With a more advanced product AKM-AK74, of course.
        1. Mika_blin
          Mika_blin 15 November 2017 15: 56
          +3
          > Those are on ??? belay AK replaced EVERYTHING in the Soviet army. And it still replaces!
          Not replaced. After adoption, it was produced in parallel with the RPD and SCS.
          > Light machine gun - the same AK with an elongated and thickened barrel.
          He appeared in 1961. When the concept was revised. It can be said, indeed, in the German direction, but not quite: no one planned to remove the machine gun as such, and the weapon under the intermediate cartridge on the basis of the AK replaced the weapon under the intermediate cartridge (RPD). And he has other differences from AK, except for the barrel. Unlike the assault, which was originally supposed to replace, in general, the MG-42 on the bipod in the departments, and not what the RPD is.
          > The USSR STRICTLY embodied the Stg-44 concept.
          No, no one has embodied it yet. Including the Germans themselves, who returned the machine guns to the units armed with assault forces, and did not turn off the production of PP, and self-loading rifles continued to be produced, and even put new ones into production. If this concept were literally adopted and embodied in the USSR, no one would know anything about RPDs, RPKs and SKS, and the only examples of infantry small arms would be an assault rifle (whose construction is unknown) and a single machine gun on the machine.
          Incidentally, I do not claim that the concept was unsuitable in itself, but it seems to me that a hat would have come out at the post-war technical level.
        2. IImonolitII
          IImonolitII 15 November 2017 16: 01
          +3
          Such a replacement happened much later. And immediately after the war a complex of SKS, AK, RPD, RP46 was adopted.
    3. avt
      avt 15 November 2017 19: 24
      +1
      Quote: voyaka uh
      and a big step forward in arming the infantry.

      Yes . Moreover, well, in terms of what was adopted for service during the hostilities, it is also FIRST. This is a real medical fact, given the feeling.
  13. DimerVladimer
    DimerVladimer 15 November 2017 13: 11
    +2
    ZF1229 Vampir night vision device (trophy in the hands of an English soldier)
    1. NG inform
      NG inform 16 November 2017 01: 55
      +2
      Then they had too lousy quality for real use in battle. The weight of the PNV system alone for 30 kg, unmasking due to a searchlight and scanty range.
      Here is the Soviet version:
      1. mat-vey
        mat-vey 17 November 2017 19: 48
        +1
        Quote: NG inform
        The weight of the PNV system alone for 30 kg, unmasking due to a searchlight and scanty range.

        And the meager working time ... So the C-3 range was a little true, and the PPSh firing range was less ...
        1. NG inform
          NG inform 18 November 2017 02: 25
          0
          So at that level of technological development nothing better could be done. I remember when I was a student, they told me that they learned to do suitable lenses with some ridiculous miracle - level: they spat in the melt.
          1. mat-vey
            mat-vey 18 November 2017 06: 21
            0
            Well, the Ts-3 did not have its own source of infrared radiation, or rather, it was part of the complex ...
            1. NG inform
              NG inform 19 November 2017 16: 07
              0
              C-3 without a source could be put on mosinki and shot Germans with vampires :) But there were practically no such people in kind.
              1. mat-vey
                mat-vey 19 November 2017 18: 54
                0
                It’s whether he lies about 70 "saw" ...
                1. NG inform
                  NG inform 19 November 2017 20: 37
                  0
                  No, a searchlight - I could very well see from a great distance. Here you need to understand that to illuminate a target with a flashlight, and then see it in reflected light - the task is much more complicated than just seeing a bright source of infrared light.
                  1. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 4 December 2017 16: 49
                    0
                    Quote: NG inform
                    No, a searchlight - I could very well see from a great distance.

                    And the guys didn’t know ... what kind of power was the signal amplifier on the C-3?
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    2. zampolit
      zampolit 15 November 2017 13: 55
      +1
      But nothing that the ABC-36 was adopted earlier than the M1?
      And what is wrong with the mass production of the Mondragon rifle, over a million pieces?
      1. Johns
        Johns 15 November 2017 14: 31
        0
        Quote: zampolit
        But nothing that the ABC-36 was adopted earlier than the M1?

        I wrote about army weapons. And not about that which was adopted and entered into some armies. ABC-36, like SVT-40, did not meet the criteria for army weapons. And M1 Garand, the first in the world for an individual self-loading weapon, responded.
        Quote: zampolit
        And what is wrong with the mass production of the Mondragon rifle, over a million pieces?

        The problem is not mass, the problem is constructive. It is about the same as that of ABC / CBT. Those. not suitable for the army.
        1. avt
          avt 15 November 2017 19: 27
          +3
          Quote: Johns
          I wrote about army weapons. And not about that which was adopted and entered into some armies. ABC-36, like SVT-40, did not meet the criteria for army weapons. And M1 Garand, the first in the world for an individual self-loading weapon, responded.

          bully It’s like an expert community from an institute where
          We are about explosions, about fires. They composed a note of TASS, But orderlies rushed in And fixed us.
    3. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 15 November 2017 14: 07
      +4
      Quote: Johns
      2. The first full-fledged self-loading individual infantry weapon using a gas engine was manufactured by the Americans in 1941 (Garand rifle). Although attempts to create something workable in such a construct around the world have been before.


      But what about the 7,62-mm self-loading rifles of the Tokarev system of the 1938 and 1940 samples (SVT-38, SVT-40) above the barrel is not a gas engine?

      Or do you refuse SVT in full value? :))
      1. Johns
        Johns 15 November 2017 14: 33
        0
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        Or do you refuse SVT in full value? :))

        Of course. This is a hunting weapon. And his presence at one time in the Red Army did not make him army.
  15. CRP
    CRP 15 November 2017 13: 31
    +3
    Quote: Johns

    PS. Not a single example of an individual automatic infantry weapon, except on the 5,56x45 mm NATO cartridge, is no longer known today.


    Unknown to whom?
    Why do you highlight the word "INFANTRY"? What are these criteria? Apparently, one you know!
    5.45 with better flatness, penetration and less weight, so a discovery for you?
    1. Johns
      Johns 15 November 2017 14: 01
      0
      Quote: CRP
      Unknown to whom?

      The world.
      Quote: CRP
      Why do you highlight the word "INFANTRY"? What are these criteria? Apparently, one you know!

      To obtain such knowledge, there is the Internet. Free educational programs there.
      Quote: CRP
      5.45 with better flatness, penetration and less weight, so a discovery for you?

      Free educational programs on the Internet.
      1. CRP
        CRP 15 November 2017 14: 23
        +6
        Quote: Johns
        Quote: CRP
        Unknown to whom?

        The world.
        Quote: CRP
        Why do you highlight the word "INFANTRY"? What are these criteria? Apparently, one you know!

        To obtain such knowledge, there is the Internet. Free educational programs there.
        Quote: CRP
        5.45 with better flatness, penetration and less weight, so a discovery for you?

        Free educational programs on the Internet.


        Well, then you are just a troll and balabol)
        1. mat-vey
          mat-vey 17 November 2017 19: 50
          +1
          Quote: CRP
          Well, then you are just a troll and balabol)

          Another one !!!!
  16. DesToeR
    DesToeR 15 November 2017 13: 36
    +4
    Quote: voyaka uh
    And the general concept of Kalashnikov: automatic weapons under an intermediate cartridge
    taken undoubtedly from STG-44

    But it’s not clear why Kalashnikov took the stormtrooper in the concept? Where does this information come from? Kalashnikov designed his weapons based on the technical task received from the Customer (military). The design of the AK-47 has nothing in common with the stormtrooper, fundamentally different disassembly of the weapon and its layout. What is the "plagiarism" of Kalashnikov? It is somehow forgotten that the future machine was adopted by the COMPETITION, and at that time the victory of Kalashnikov was not obvious to anyone ... But the military had a lot to choose from: Dementiev (AD-46), Bulkin (AB-46), Kalashnikov (AK -46). If Mikhail Timofeevich “copied” it with anyone, the layout of his future AK-47 is most likely Bulkin’s:
    1. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 15 November 2017 14: 12
      +4
      Quote: DesToeR
      Quote: voyaka uh
      And the general concept of Kalashnikov: automatic weapons under an intermediate cartridge
      taken undoubtedly from STG-44

      But it’s not clear why Kalashnikov took the stormtrooper in the concept? Where does this information come from? Kalashnikov designed his weapons based on the technical task received from the Customer (military). The design of the AK-47 has nothing in common with the stormtrooper, fundamentally different disassembly of the weapon and its layout. What is the "plagiarism" of Kalashnikov? It is somehow forgotten that the future machine was adopted by the COMPETITION, and at that time the victory of Kalashnikov was not obvious to anyone ... But the military had a lot to choose from: Dementiev (AD-46), Bulkin (AB-46), Kalashnikov (AK -46). If Mikhail Timofeevich “copied” it with anyone, the layout of his future AK-47 is most likely Bulkin’s:


      Absolutely.
      But then it was not considered shameful to use both foreign developments and use the achievements of competitors - the goal was to get the best weapons and the best ideas were taken.
      MTK did not hide in his memoirs that he studied all available copies of the available weapons.

      The main result - and he gave it.
      And much more time was spent on fine-tuning to perfection and mass industrial production.
    2. sibiryouk
      sibiryouk 15 November 2017 15: 36
      +3
      Nothing wrong with that - that I borrowed! In the USSR, all the designers worked for the state and it does not matter who better developed the site - Kalashnikov, Bulkin, Simonov, etc. Everything went into business - this is a weapon for your country! But Schmeiser, Walter, Bergman, etc.- worked in their own pocket and just didn’t share it with competitors. This is the MARKET!
    3. The comment was deleted.
      1. beeper
        beeper 16 November 2017 00: 58
        +4
        And on which side was Thompson “trying to copy-paste”? smile
        “First”, Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov had a submachine gun of 7,62mm caliber of his own design, with a slower shutter release by turning it in inclined grooves, is this the design of Thompson ?!
        PS Regarding the "comparative poster" you quoted, it is very similar to disassembling the DP-29 tar gun (which in turn inherited some "generic" features of the Madsen machine gun), adjusted for sheet stamping, I had to use a transverse steel axis instead of a milled crack joint and the rear milled grooves should be replaced with stamped eyes, as well as the rear disassembling the DP (the "Sturmgever" even has the axis of the closure on the right side and in the same place as the "Degtyarev Infantry" Schmeisser, and Walter too, when creating their automatic rifles, "stripped" Soviet obraztsy- "SVT" and "DP" well, just not in detski!))) yes But M.T. Kalashnikov came up creatively, took care of the removable gas pipe and the wooden forend, Mikhail Timofeevich himself was a soldier and fought with weapons in his hands, so he always made sure that it was convenient for a soldier to fight his creations! yes
        1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Kibb
        Kibb 17 November 2017 10: 17
        0
        But at the same time, it is also evident that differences in them are also sufficient - a common occurrence for small arms
    4. mat-vey
      mat-vey 17 November 2017 19: 53
      +2
      Quote: DesToeR
      If Mikhail Timofeevich “copied” it with anyone, the layout of his future AK-47 is most likely Bulkin’s:

      And you take a look at Bulkin’s assault rifle until he met the AC-44 ...
      In general, AKM appeared later ...
  17. CRP
    CRP 15 November 2017 13: 48
    +2
    Quote: Johns
    [
    Although, perhaps you had in mind the range of aimed automatic fire (if we mean NORMAL PP, and not something like PPSh / PPS). Then everything is true, the StG44, like the AK-74 / AK / AKM, this range was about 100 m.


    What kind of "INFANTRY" weapon has the aiming range of automatic fire above 100 m?
    1. Johns
      Johns 15 November 2017 14: 03
      0
      Quote: CRP
      What kind of "INFANTRY" weapon has the aiming range of automatic fire above 100 m?

      ANY automatic infantry weapon. And any automatic assault weapons. And even with submachine gun carbines, also higher.
      Free educational programs on the Internet. For more information, contact there.
      1. CRP
        CRP 15 November 2017 14: 40
        +3
        Quote: Johns

        ANY automatic infantry weapon. And any automatic assault weapons. And even with submachine gun carbines, also higher.


        I’m embarrassed to ask, where will you get from the M1918?

        Quote: Johns
        Free educational programs on the Internet. For more information, contact there.


        Yes, you have some kind of mantra. Will you basically answer or go in peace?
        1. avt
          avt 15 November 2017 19: 30
          +2
          Quote: CRP
          Yes, you have some kind of mantra. Will you basically answer or go in peace?

          In their
          Quote: avt
          It’s like an expert community from an institute where
          We are about explosions, about fires. They composed a note of TASS, But orderlies rushed in And fixed us.

          Your Internet, your criteria, and repeated because
          the head physician Margulis banned television.
          bully
        2. mat-vey
          mat-vey 17 November 2017 19: 55
          0
          Quote: CRP
          Yes, you have some kind of mantra. Will you basically answer or go in peace?

          He won’t, but he’ll accuse him of rudeness ... although the uh-ee is far from an example of politeness and tact ..
  18. DesToeR
    DesToeR 15 November 2017 14: 05
    +5
    Quote: Johns
    2. The first full-fledged self-loading individual infantry weapon using a gas engine was manufactured by the Americans in 1941 (Garand rifle). Although attempts to create something workable in such a construct around the world have been before.

    And what is 1,5 million. pieces of self-loading rifles SVT-38/40 in the same 1941 were "inferior" against the background of "mother"?
    Quote: Johns
    Nowhere in the world is such a SPECIAL (assault) weapon of particular interest

    It did not cause up to a certain point. And when this moment came (Vietnam), then the "rest of the world" (and where is the prefix "civilized"?) Realized that the Soviet Union adopted not "specialized", but the most appropriate small arms tactics of offensive combat. Since September 400, no one has already fired at the “skeet” since September 1939 — maneuvering warfare did not allow it. In the USSR, this was understood on the basis of an analysis of the maneuverable battles of the Great Patriotic War (Great Britain, by the way, understood the same thing), but in the USA they decided to “shove” their new rifle cartridge 7,62x51 and ... pushed through, discarding the evolution of Western small arms for a good 20 years.
  19. panzerfaust
    panzerfaust 15 November 2017 14: 13
    0
    And yet, what did the captive Hugo Schmeisser do in Izhevsk for almost 10 years? After all, he lived in full board with his family.
    1. bunta
      15 November 2017 14: 19
      +4
      Quote: panzerfaust
      And yet, what did the captive Hugo Schmeisser do in Izhevsk for almost 10 years?

      1952-1946 is 6 years. You will find the rest if you wish, if you have it in conjunction with the ability to use a search engine.
      1. mat-vey
        mat-vey 17 November 2017 19: 57
        +2
        Quote: bunta
        Find the rest if you wish

        Yes, there with “desire” doesn’t seem very much - still do not know that AK in Kovrov was “born” ..
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 17 November 2017 21: 26
          +4
          Quote: mat-vey
          Quote: bunta
          Find the rest if you wish

          Yes, there with “desire” doesn’t seem very much - still do not know that AK in Kovrov was “born” ..

          Can you first read all the articles of the author?
          1. mat-vey
            mat-vey 18 November 2017 06: 36
            +1
            Mordvin 3
            Maybe she’ll just learn to understand what you’re reading? And only then can you begin to give tips? Well, or list the articles “panzerfaust” that you need to read for a start ...
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 18 November 2017 09: 31
              +3
              Yeah, I’m called, I didn’t cut it a bit.
              1. mat-vey
                mat-vey 18 November 2017 09: 36
                +2
                Really pitnitsa sneaked up? It happens ..
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 18 November 2017 09: 37
                  +3
                  Yes, there was such a thing.
    2. NG inform
      NG inform 16 November 2017 02: 01
      0
      Yes, like most other Germans, he built houses.
  20. Makar Ivanovich
    Makar Ivanovich 15 November 2017 14: 29
    +3
    [quote = voyaka uh]
    But what kind of failure?
    "I jerked the shutter, forgetting - from lack of sleep or whether God knows why - that it is already charged."
    Soldier error while working with new weapons [/ quote /]
    Well, if you claim that the AK was torn with the STG-44, why when jerking the shutter of an AK already charged, it simply throws the cartridge out of the chamber and inserts a new cartridge into the chamber from the magazine. And no “jamming” occurs.
    [quote = voyaka uh] "but he refused after three shots - sand hit."
    At that time, the ingress of sand led to the failure of almost any weapon. [/ Quote /]
    Did you fight with any weapons at that time? Crawling through the mud on the belly, falling into puddles with a barrel and shops during shelling? I had a chance to crawl and fall both into the mud and sand and into the rock from the 1963 AK, and he did not even try to wedge it. And how nice it was in winter to warm your hands on a cooling barrel. Even burned a couple of times, because hands froze so much that the fingers did not feel anything. I understand that comparing 1943 and 1963 is not correct, but still. I could not use earlier AK issues in the field, I compare with the fact that it was the closest by year of release.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 15 November 2017 15: 11
      +5
      "Did you fight at that time with any weapon? Crawled through the mud on your belly, fell into puddles
      with a barrel and shops at shelling "////

      I was born after the 2nd World War. And you, judging by your question, are a WWII veteran.
      I respect
      If you have noticed, I have never criticized (and do not criticize) the Kalashnikov assault rifle.
      But during the 2nd World War it did not exist. But STG-44 existed and
      Intensively applied. Being - at that time - one of the best examples of infantry weapons. hi
      1. bunta
        15 November 2017 20: 45
        +5
        Quote: voyaka uh
        Being - at that time - one of the best examples


        With a reference to "authority", reinforce your conclusion. And then somehow uncomfortable.
      2. NG inform
        NG inform 16 November 2017 02: 08
        +3
        There are few in the topic who wonders - why did the Germans have to create a new cartridge and new small arms during the war, despite the hellish haemorrhoids?
        Because of this, the StG was raw, there were few cartridges and it did not have a special influence on the course of the war. What is the reason why no one else did this, only improved what was before, and began to switch to a new caliber only after the war?
        And the answer is simple: Schmeiser and Co. were bad gunsmiths. The Germans' small arms for infantry were lousy and noticeably inferior to their opponents, and this was their fault - therefore, the stories about the genius Schmeiser are essentially funny and absurd. They also had to fix the jambs at a critical moment, and naturally this was a new generation based on new experience.
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 16 November 2017 09: 35
          +1
          "The small arms for the infantry of the Germans were lousy and noticeably inferior to the opponents," ////

          Recall what kind of weapon it was:
          Mauser rifle, MP-40 submachine gun, MG-34 light machine gun.
          Which one do you think is lousy?
          In 1944, the quality of the Wehrmacht infantry fell due to heavy losses in 1943.
          It has become difficult to form trained machine gun groups - the basis of their tactics.
          And it took massive weapons for insufficiently trained soldiers. To create a tight fire.
          This weapon was the Stg-44. Which fully corresponded to this task.
          So Schmeiser and Co. turned out to be good gunsmiths. Moreover, the submachine gun was a revolutionary development of small arms. Proof: Kalashnikov assault rifle good . For 40 years he reigned in the world.
  21. Curious
    Curious 15 November 2017 15: 11
    +2
    “As for childhood diseases, I’ll leave them for the next article. There is too much material on Schmeisser the constructor as complete lack of talent. You just need to be able to distinguish between childhood diseases and the possibility of treating them from design flaws or, worse, the complete unsuitability of those who undertook the development of weapons. "
    Hugo Schmeisser typed in a search engine. Information in Russian, English, German, Spanish.
    And in all languages, his contribution to the development of small arms is noted. It is also noted that he did not have a higher technical education. The practitioner.
    But who is Andrei Kulikov, who doesn’t put a penny on Schmeisser, no one knows any language. Maybe this is the literary pseudonym of some outstanding gunsmith who is secret. Share information if anyone knows.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 15 November 2017 15: 41
      +3
      The author stubbornly defends the Kalashnikov assault rifle. Which and protect something is not
      need - a good weapon. This is clear to everyone without lawyers.
      But in its defense it achieves directly opposite results.
      Because:
      1) Trying to ascribe AK - to a good weapon - some superlative qualities,
      which he does not possess (this is in previous cycles).
      2) Trying to run into competing designers and weapons of other countries, representing
      people with insignificance and their weapons with caricature pieces of iron.
      All world weapon designers always looked at each other and borrowed the best solutions.
      There is nothing shameful and shameful. Everyone tried to give their country the best weapons,
      not your "original" weapon.
      1. bunta
        15 November 2017 20: 49
        +5
        Quote: voyaka uh
        The author stubbornly defends the Kalashnikov assault rifle. Which and protect something is not
        need - a good weapon. This is clear to everyone without lawyers.

        I don’t defend him, you stupid mine. I explain WHY it is good. If you don’t understand WHY, say so - it doesn’t reach me or I don’t perceive it, I don’t consider the arguments convincing.
        1. Pereira
          Pereira 15 November 2017 22: 01
          +3
          Our former comrade is simply afraid of the Arabs with Kalash.
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 15 November 2017 23: 24
            +2
            While the Arabs were with Kalash (AKM), it was easier. Problems began in the mid-90s when Hezbollah in Lebanon and Islamic Jihad in the territories switched to M-16. They began to fall from much greater distances. And to determine the source of fire in the M-16, shooting from an ambush, it is much more difficult. M-16 shoots quietly and no flame is visible.
        2. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 15 November 2017 23: 35
          0
          For this do not need long articles. Just one suggestion:
          "AKM provides acceptable accuracy, accuracy and lethal force with a very small number of failures and a relatively small weight and length."

          I will add. Currently deprecated. Like the AK-74. Like the M-16 / M-4 ...
  22. Sivasa
    Sivasa 15 November 2017 18: 58
    +4
    What to procrastinate from scratch? The products have completely different mechanics. A pistol grip, a carob magazine and a fly - well, they look alike. No more.
    1. beeper
      beeper 16 November 2017 01: 22
      +1
      As for me, the flies with their base are different for Sturmgever and AK (for AK, the front of the fly is more elegant and the V-shaped safety ears allow you to quickly “capture the target (especially at night)” and monitor it, as well as easier to clean from snow, mud or adhering clay, than completely, in a “Mauserian” way, covered with a fly of a “Sturmgever”), only on the side, maybe with the back bevel of the rack ?!
      hi
      1. NG inform
        NG inform 16 November 2017 02: 12
        +2
        Well, the first automatic sub-machine gun in the world:

        In the opinion of the noob - why not a prototype of Kalash?
        I am already silent about the Bulkin automaton, which in fact was one of the prototypes.
        1. Kibb
          Kibb 17 November 2017 09: 57
          +1
          Pancake , Fedorov’s cartridge is not intermediate - and this is generally the cartridge of Arisaka. Yes, and with a blunt bullet to AF in general is not related
          1. Disorder
            Disorder 17 November 2017 18: 10
            +2
            The cartridge of Fedorov, unlike the cartridge of Arisak, never had a blunt bullet.
            1. Kibb
              Kibb 17 November 2017 18: 17
              +1
              I wrote somewhere that the Fedorov cartridge had a blunt bullet?
          2. mat-vey
            mat-vey 17 November 2017 20: 06
            +2
            Well, Fedorov didn’t have “Arisaka”, but the so-called St. Petersburg 6,5x51SR

            Is this a blunt bullet, or not?
            1. Kibb
              Kibb 17 November 2017 20: 16
              +1
              (Exhaling heavily) In the picture to which I left a comment, an Arisaka cartridge with a blunt bullet! Is it really so hard to see what was being commented before clever?
              1. mat-vey
                mat-vey 17 November 2017 20: 20
                +1
                This is the same "Arisaka" ... which doesn’t suit you ... and don’t sigh heavily - your head will spin.
                PYSYA - do you even know what 6,5x51 SR in St. Petersburg did with Russian gunpowder? And the production was organized by Fedorov ...
                1. Kibb
                  Kibb 17 November 2017 21: 22
                  +1
                  And why did you suddenly get the idea that it doesn’t suit me? Is it difficult for you to look at the picture and see what is shown there?
                  CAPACITY Well, what is it for? they did it in Britain, what next?
                  1. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 17 November 2017 22: 11
                    +1
                    So what? Well, the picture - which cartridges were put in the museum ...
                    Quote: Kibb
                    CAPACITY Well, what is it for? they did it in Britain, what next?

                    And then the fact that Japanese, British and Russian gunpowder are two different things ... but this is not a picture here you need to think ...
                    1. Kibb
                      Kibb 17 November 2017 22: 35
                      +1
                      And? I commented on the picture - it is a computer, not a museum photo
                      Yes, British Russian and Japanese gunpowder are two different things - what should I think about?
                      1. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 17 November 2017 22: 39
                        +1
                        Quote: Kibb
                        what should i think about?

                        Yes, it seems like you don’t have to think ...
                        Quote: Kibb
                        And? I commented on the picture - it is a computer, not a museum photo

                        Well, then it was made by a "real specialist" .. so what does AF and a blunt bullet have to do with it ...
              2. Disorder
                Disorder 17 November 2017 21: 02
                +2
                Something really dumb in the picture. But, the cartridge of Arisaka already from 1897 had a pointed bullet.
                1. Kibb
                  Kibb 17 November 2017 21: 18
                  +1
                  Well, then what? Is it my fault that the one who sculpted this picture does not know about it and portrayed AF with a cartridge with a blunt bullet?
  23. Pereira
    Pereira 15 November 2017 21: 59
    +4
    Quote: A.W.S.
    It was precisely this joint Soviet-German development that received the proud name "Kalashnikov assault rifle of the 1947 model of the year." Does any sergeant Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov have any relation to the creation of AK 47 yourself.

    Another grief-revealer. Do not have time to dip one into his own intellectual impurities, as the second emerges.
    1. beeper
      beeper 16 November 2017 01: 35
      +1
      Why be surprised? Cyber ​​war for the minds of people does not stop even for a minute - read the last paragraph of the quote I quoted and you will understand about whom, even on this thread, we are talking yes :
      1. Cyber ​​attacks and troll factories

      Following the adoption of the dogma of “non-argumentative faith” about “Russian interference in the US presidential election,” the Washington establishment is most interested in confronting Russia in cyberspace.

      Since Russian hackers, according to the Americans, made them president of Donald Trump, and Kremlin Internet trolls held a referendum in Catalonia and forced the British to leave the EU using “photojacks” and “demotivators” on social networks, cyber threats will inevitably be recognized the most pressing challenge from Moscow.

      The National Defense Act requires the Pentagon to prepare annual reports on the “strategy of the Russian information war”.

      In response to the Kremlin’s alleged Internet attacks, new NATO Cybersecurity Centers will be created in Europe, similar to the ones that have been operating in Tallinn for many years, and new NATO Strategic Communication Centers, like they opened in Riga a couple of years ago.

      The first will be engaged in cyber espionage and hacker attacks in Runet. The second will be factories of “trolls” - commentators on Internet sites, forums, blogs and social networks. These "specialists" will "mess up" any discussion in the Russian-language segment of the Internet with their "counter-propaganda."

      Read more: http://www.km.ru/world/2017/11/14/otnosheniya-ros
      sii-i-ssha / 814308-kak-amerikantsy-budut-sderzhiva
      t-rossiyu-v-evrope
  24. kig
    kig 16 November 2017 03: 39
    0
    We will not do a detailed and high-quality analysis of the mistakes of Sturmgever’s “stamping”
    Why not? It would be interesting.
    1. bunta
      16 November 2017 07: 15
      +2
      Quote: kig
      Why not?

      Time. It's money.
  25. The comment was deleted.
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  27. The comment was deleted.
  28. Kibb
    Kibb 17 November 2017 23: 00
    +1
    Quote: mat-vey
    Quote: Kibb
    what should i think about?

    Yes, it seems like you don’t have to think ...
    Quote: Kibb
    And? I commented on the picture - it is a computer, not a museum photo

    Well, then it was made by a "real specialist" .. so what does AF and a blunt bullet have to do with it ...

    So I wrote that she (the picture) was made by a “real specialist”, what do you disagree with? Could you please be more specific, because a little bit sick
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 18 November 2017 06: 47
      +1
      Quote: Kibb
      So I wrote that she (the picture) was made by a “real specialist”, what do you disagree with? Could you please be more specific, because a little bit sick

      Yes, it’s no longer clear how you can chew - in the picture, a fake with cartridges, and you take it seriously - you left the cartridge used in AF and the fact that it was on Russian gunpowder, but strain and think that with different gunpowder (Russian worse) the cartridge will have a different impulse even with the same hitch (although there is an “Arisaka” with a lower impulse due to the reduced weight of gunpowder) you will probably get a crowbar - it’s easier to knock on the keys ...
      1. Kibb
        Kibb 18 November 2017 13: 19
        0
        You took up the discussion, not me. If you would undertake to discuss my statement that Patron Fedorov is not intermediate, this is one thing, but you just spent a bunch of keystrokes on the keys, take a sedative.
        1. mat-vey
          mat-vey 18 November 2017 13: 39
          +1
          Uti my bose ...
          Quote: Kibb
          Kibb Yesterday, 09:57 ↑
          Damn, Fedorov’s cartridge is not intermediate - but this is generally Arisak’s cartridge. Yes, and with a blunt bullet to AF in general is not related

          And this is not a discussion ...
          Quote: Kibb
          take a sedative.

          Why do I need it? I’m aware that the Fedorov automatic rifle and the Fedorov assault rifle are two different things, primarily because of the cartridge ...
          Quote: Kibb
          If you would undertake to discuss my statement that Patron Fedorov is not intermediate, this is one

          "Well, Fedorov didn’t have Arisaka at all, but the so-called St. Petersburg 6,5x51SR" if you were thinking and not sighing, you could have discussed .... and yes it seems like time is empty .. well why do you think?
  29. John22
    John22 20 November 2017 11: 43
    +1
    The inaccuracy in the memoirs of the soldiers of the Wehrmacht is incomprehensible. In 1942, this product was called Mkb. 42, in 1943 the MP-43, but not Sturmgever), which it became in 1944. It was a breakthrough in the weapons and technological business. There are other reviews - positive.
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 4 December 2017 16: 50
      0
      Quote: John22
      It was a breakthrough in weapons and technology

      And what is the breakthrough in "technological business"?
  30. ser6119
    ser6119 1 August 2018 16: 34
    0
    Quote: sibiryouk
    And even without the Internet, just try to parse both machines and you will immediately see a lot of differences! And outwardly, Moskvich-2140 is similar to RENAULT, only the filling is different.

    I can say that they both look like Ford-T lol