Military Review

Founder of the empire

279
By 790 - the anniversary of the death of the founder of the Golden Horde, the warrior, the great commander and reformer - Chyngyz Khan (Temuchin) 03.10.1155 - 25.08.1227




Until now, in assessing many aspects of life and stories Golden Horde meet the most opposing views. In scientific works and educational literature, simply in the very perception of history, in our opinion, there are a number of misconceptions, distortions, and established stereotypes. This refers to ideology, politics, borders, the name of the state, the development of culture, the relationship between the concepts of "Mongols" and "Tatars". First of all, when familiarizing with any source (and the primary sources were diligently destroyed), the obvious and sharply negative role of the Golden Horde in the history of Russia is striking. As a result, a situation has been created in science, when for the most part the Golden Horde itself was studied not so much as its influence on Russia and their interrelations. Moreover, even this side was often limited to a set of the most general judgments and declarative statements, usually supported by well-known quotations from the works of Karl Marx. But emotionally and politically negative thoughts of Marx about the Tatars would have sounded more plausible if they were supplemented with concrete, truthful historical facts. Especially need to say about the relevance of this date.

Only truthful historical materials will contribute to the cause of Russia's unity and the development of a mutually acceptable national idea of ​​the Russians on the basis of the revival of Eurasianism. Moreover, there is enough complete and objective information about the past of the people, which has played a huge role in the formation of not only Russian statehood, but also the main ethnic groups. Both Russia and Eurasia as a whole. The widely known biography of Genghis Khan today is a weighty argument in favor of the point of view that the activity of one person can significantly change the history of not only the people, but the whole of humanity. Such people appear very rarely. Immediately, dramatically and radically changed the vector of the development of civilization, only the great conquerors. They encouraged history, at the same time destroying the old world and creating a new one, which was a projection of their will and bearing on themselves the imprint of their personality.

Founder of the empire


Most historians believe that the great commander was born on October 3 1155. And they see the fact of deep symbolism in the fact that the son of Yesugei was born into the world, squeezing a blood clot in his fist. His father gave him the name Temuchin .... The empires are not created by predatory greed, ideology is needed here. And it was in Genghis Khan's ... He was obsessed with the dream of creating a One World and a perfect state. In an era of universal disunity and lawlessness, when brute force reigned, an empire seemed to be the ideal of the earthly system, embracing the whole world, ruled by one will and living by the same rules. For Genghis Khan, society and nature were interrelated. He wanted to strengthen forever, to preserve the civilization model prevailing in the steppe, to extend it to the whole earth. He was the last of the great figures of history with such an "archaic" view of the world. Starting with the “great kurultai”, Genghis Khan persistently carried out his reform activities, gradually giving the rudiments of the administrative apparatus of his ulus functions of the state. These events had a conscious course on transformations and touched first of all the structures of its ulus responsible for the fields of activity - the structure of the military-political apparatus, housekeeping, justice, and foreign policy. The unification of nations and tribes by Chinggiskhan within the framework of a single state created favorable conditions for the formation and development of a single nationality and its language, the creation of a nationwide written language (based on the Uigur alphabet).

Tatars - a collection of peoples inhabiting the territory of Eastern Transbaikalia and modern Mongolia. They lived with the Mongols, contacted, constantly communicated, became related. Many medieval documents proving that Genghis Khan was a Tatar are hidden from the general public, classified "in the interests of those in power". At their behest, scientists specifically associated the name of Genghis Khan with the Mongols, who even in the 19th century were few semi-wild nomads wandering the steppes. Mongols understand it is not difficult, what people do not want to appropriate the memory of a legendary person? A. of Macedon tried to make his almost thirty nations! Utyamesh-Khoja, a well-known person in the history of the Horde, wrote in his book about Genghis Khan: “After the collapse of the Horde, the Uzbeks and Kyrgyz became beks, while the Tatars remained Khans.” And not a single word about the Mongols. What is the birth name of Genghis Khan?

Tatar name Temuchin! (Timerche - blacksmith, the sound of iron). Heir to the Kagans, who owned a vast centuries-old experience of ancestors in state-building. Such a person, of course, had where to get the experience of creating an army, a state, laws, economic relations. The word "Mongol" was officially introduced only after the formation of the state of Genghis Khan, to designate the ruling dynasty and the whole state as a whole (Men-gu), which translates from the Turkic language as eternal, given for centuries (cf. the modern Tatar - "Mengelek" (eternity). Genghis Khan wanted to conquer the whole world, but his goal was good - that there should be no wars, that all people would live richly, happily and according to the law of “Yasy”.



Almost 1000 years of human history have passed, and the current rulers are dreaming about such a united world state (globalization, united Europe). This is exactly what Genghis Khan wanted, this is what he sought, albeit by radical methods! The ideas of Genghis Khan were ahead of events by several centuries ahead. Guided by Tengrian tolerance, in the “Yasa” he ordered: “To respect all confessions, not giving preference to any, the house of God and his servants, whoever he is, spare.

Leave free from taxes and read them. " Genghis Khan's “Yasa” equalizes all religions and does not distinguish between them, which confirms Genghis Khan’s religious and national tolerance. Genghis Khan is not an impostor (like other kings in Russia), but a lawfully chosen kagultai on the kurultay. They found reasonable approaches to state structure and state policy to maintain unity, peace, economic and cultural development of a multinational and multi-religious state, they are relevant to this day - the ethno-cultural autonomy of the regions, supra-confessional and supranational government policies and the idea of ​​uniting the whole of Eurasia. It is not by chance that Russia became the heir of the Great Mongolian Empire and the successor of these ideas of Genghis Khan! In 2000, Genghis Khan was declared the “Millennium Man.”

It is popular even in Great Britain, there is a monument in its honor. And here? .. Great people deserve a great leader. Not Russia declared a crusade by the Vatican, and the Tatars (Pope Gregory XIX). He was joined by Emperor Frederick II (1244). For every age, heaven sent man to pacify the foolish. Why did history unite two great nations — Russians and Tatars? Because it is impossible to defeat them while they are one. So let us be worthy of the memory of Genghis Khan. We will remember, honor, enrich the spirit of our ancestors.
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  1. Serg65
    Serg65 11 November 2017 09: 10 New
    14
    Many medieval documents proving that Genghis Khan was a Tatar

    what I understand that this is one of the chapters of the modern history of Tatarstan and Bashkiria ???
    1. thinker
      thinker 11 November 2017 10: 58 New
      0
      There are other documents request -
      ... at least three outstanding personalities of world history are directly related to our people. This is the Queen of Saks Tomiris, leader of the Huns Attila and Genghis Khan. Kazakh blood flowed in the veins of these geniuses.
      http://nm2000.kz/news/2007-06-14-787
      1. Serg65
        Serg65 11 November 2017 11: 34 New
        +7
        bully Give a request to the Academy of Sciences of Kyrgyzstan and you will be given a document with two seals stating that Adam was the first Kyrgyz!
    2. Operator
      Operator 11 November 2017 21: 29 New
      +1
      Modern Tatars are a hodgepodge of five major ethnic groups, none of which are dominant. Moreover, the Mongolian group C2 in the Tatars is represented at the level of 2%



      Bashkirs in general in the dominant ethnic group are Celts (48%), and Mongolian C2 is represented at the level of 1%


      From this it follows that the Tatars and Bashkirs were conquered by the Mongols and driven to Europe in the wagon train of the Mongolian army.
      1. Mangel olys
        13 November 2017 13: 00 New
        +1
        And where were they conquered, once "driven to Europe"?
        1. Operator
          Operator 13 November 2017 20: 34 New
          0
          On the way from Mongolia to Europe.
          1. Mangel olys
            13 November 2017 21: 24 New
            0
            So their homeland in modern Mongolia?
            1. Operator
              Operator 13 November 2017 23: 15 New
              0
              Are you aware that Altai, Kazakhstan and Central Asia are located between modern Mongolia and Europe?
              1. Mangel olys
                14 November 2017 06: 56 New
                +1
                Sorry, I didn’t ask the question correctly. So, in modern Tatars the territories of Altai, Central Asia, and modern Kazakhstan were the ancestral home?
                1. Operator
                  Operator 14 November 2017 16: 14 New
                  0
                  The modern Tatars of the Volga region are a hodgepodge of several ethnic groups: Ugrofinns (ancestral homeland - the south of Yakutia), Northern Semites (ancestral home - Central Asia), Aryans and Celts (ancestral home - Altai), Mongols (ancestral home - Mongolia), Illyrians (ancestral home - Europe) and so on .d.
                  1. Mangel olys
                    14 November 2017 20: 12 New
                    +1
                    So, now a little clearer. We can say that the Tatar tribes living in the area of ​​the Khingan Mountains, near the lakes Buir and Kulan, united in the tribal union “Altars of the Tatars”. Toponyms such as the Tatar Strait, the Tatar Gulf, the Tatar Mountain Range and the Sea of ​​Japan, which used to be called the Tatar Sea, were preserved from them, while I.F. Krusenstern in 1805 did not rename the modern name.

                    And please tell me, why does this "hodgepodge" have one language for everyone, and quite old?
                    1. Operator
                      Operator 14 November 2017 20: 21 New
                      0
                      The hodgepodge was assimilated linguistically and culturally by the Mongols.

                      The Tatar Strait, the bay and the ridge are named after the Latin name of Siberia "Tartaria" (from the Greek "Tartar" - the abyss, the most remote place in the mythological underground kingdom of the dead Aide), and not by the name of the tribe "Tatars".
                      1. Mangel olys
                        14 November 2017 20: 35 New
                        0
                        So the modern Tatar language, is it Old Mongolian? And has nothing to do with modern Mongols, just like culture?
                    2. Seal
                      Seal 16 November 2017 13: 52 New
                      +2
                      This strait got its name from the French navigator J. F. Laperouse, who, exploring this region of the Pacific Ocean, took the strait for the bay washing the Sakhalin Peninsula, and the local population for the Tatars.

                      The outstanding Russian navigator G. I. Nevelsky corrected the first two errors, and as for the latter, it is known that the Tatars, and the Udege, live on the banks of the strait, and this erroneous name was assigned to him.

                      The origin of the name is explained by the fact that the term "Tatars" in the XVI-XVIII centuries was used in many European languages ​​in relation not only to the nationalities now known as the Tatars, but also to most Turkic, Mongolian, and Tungus-Manchu peoples of northern Eurasia.

                      The Sea of ​​Japan is most likely never called the Tatar Sea. At least there are no maps where this sea is called the "Tatar Sea".
  2. Razvedka_Boem
    Razvedka_Boem 11 November 2017 09: 16 New
    +4
    History is such a thing .. Always correct it and after a hundred or two years everyone thinks that it was like that .. For Russia, Genghis Khan is an ambiguous personality, but undoubtedly had a huge impact on everything that happened then.
    1. avt
      avt 11 November 2017 10: 47 New
      +4
      Quote: Razvedka_Boem
      For Russia, Genghis Khan is an ambiguous personality, but undoubtedly had a huge impact on everything that happened then.
      To the captain, mana, actually
      Quote: Razvedka_Boem
      ambiguous personality

      Rather, VNUK. Since it was the “invasion" somehow immediately and with WINTER (well, I don’t remember that the Nomads in the winter and in the forests didn’t just start a large-scale raid), it severely stopped the “Death of the Russian Land” - princely stabbing and placed it by issuing shortcuts to reigning power on the ground. So I agree
      For every age, heaven sent man to pacify the foolish.
      tough and efficient. Again, well, yes
      It is no accident that Russia became the heir to the Great Mongol Empire and the successor of these ideas of Genghis Khan!
      Vanya No. 4, declaring himself king and taking Kazan, cut out, according to Genghis Khan’s testament, all who haven’t grown up with a cart check. "I think so - by kneading the whole to eliminate the appearance of a likely applicant. But all one had to share the power of government in the reformatted Empire with Simeon Bekbulatovich.
      Why has history united two great nations - Russians and Tatars? Because defeating them while they are one is impossible.
      What actually showed the militia of Minin and Pozharsky in practice restoring centralized power and the Empire in fact.
      1. Romey
        Romey 11 November 2017 13: 32 New
        +1
        Vanya No. 4, declaring himself king and taking Kazan, cut out, according to Genghis Khan’s testament, all who haven’t grown up with a cart check. "I think so - by kneading the whole to eliminate the appearance of a likely applicant. But all one had to share the power of government in the reformatted Empire with Simeon Bekbulatovich.

        The great-nephew of the last Roman emperor Constantine Paleolog claimed a slightly different inheritance, better known as Imperivm Romanvm or Basilea Roman. And Simeon Bekbulatovich is rather a means of a kind of trolling of the Tatars, which is quite in the style of Ivan the Terrible.
        1. avt
          avt 11 November 2017 14: 33 New
          +2
          Quote: romey
          And Simeon Bekbulatovich is rather a means of a kind of trolling of the Tatars, which is quite in the style of Ivan the Terrible.

          bully I recognize the late Romanov school! bully Well, try to understand a simple truth - in those days, distant, now almost epic, things like power were NOT joked ANYWHERE and NO ONE in the World. And the attempts ended with the quick death of a joker. Faster than dual power in 1917. As well as religious issues for the ruling elite - they shortened it by the head at a time, and Vanya # 4 has not joked the authorities since the moment the hired boyars were handed over to the dogmen. And so, the “trolls” are not blinded in grand dignity as an equal, whose blood is shamefully shed, and even sent to a monster, but simply shortened by the head without a ploy. ,, Trola “Borya Godunov would never have been afraid as a legitimate candidate for the throne!
        2. captain
          captain 11 November 2017 16: 53 New
          0
          Chenghis Khan was a great man and commander. Nobody defeated him, and the fact that he was a Tatar is even magnificent, because the Russians were able to defeat the state created by him. And they subdued almost all the lands that were part of his state. Let for almost 350 years they fought, rebelled, cunning, deceived, but won. It is a pity that many commentators here do not want to understand what was happening then, and trying to mock about the great commander, whom we never won, is the lot of the wretched. We have not learned to respect the enemy, so we often have wars start with defeat. I remember Grachev boastfully declaring that one regiment of paratroopers would be taken by Grozny and scolded. I could not boast of appreciating the enemy, and some commentators here do not understand that we must pay tribute to the great opponents.
          1. protoss
            protoss 12 November 2017 01: 16 New
            0
            because Russian tar defeat the state created by him

            the Mongols themselves defeated their state when they split up and began to fight among themselves.
            1. Dzungar
              Dzungar 12 November 2017 06: 46 New
              +1
              If the Mongols didn’t have died, the Russians would have died too - they had nowhere to split further and got into a fight .... Only the presence of a strong external enemy made them rally and become stronger ...
      2. Gopnik
        Gopnik 11 November 2017 13: 46 New
        +1
        And where does Minin and Pozharsky and the Tatars?
        1. avt
          avt 11 November 2017 14: 37 New
          +2
          Quote: Gopnik
          And where does Minin and Pozharsky and the Tatars?

          bully Avono how running that! Learn, study and still learn!
          1. avt
            avt 11 November 2017 16: 50 New
            +1
            Quote: Gopnik
            And where does Minin and Pozharsky and the Tatars?

            By the way! Gopnik. Within
            Quote: avt
            Learn, study and still learn!

            ask
            Razvedka_Boem

            Where was born the Hero of the Great Patriotic War who called himself Alexander Matrosov. bully
            1. Razvedka_Boem
              Razvedka_Boem 11 November 2017 18: 26 New
              0
              To the captain, mana, actually

              Can you explain in Russian?
              Grandson or something you say there ..
              I understand that you consider yourself the smartest .. Well then, come down .. hmm .. to us ..
              ask
              Razvedka_Boem
              Where was born the Hero of the Great Patriotic War who called himself Alexander Matrosov. bully

              Poking at strangers is at least impolite ..
              Ahem .. Mr. switchman, why ask me something?
              In addition to allegories and hints, do you have any more arguments?
          2. Gopnik
            Gopnik 12 November 2017 17: 21 New
            0
            Are you talking about an illiterate tale that Kuzma Dmitrievich Sukhorukov was a Tatar? It's fake. Truly
            Quote: avt
            Learn, study and still learn!
      3. Weyland
        Weyland 11 November 2017 21: 27 New
        +2
        Quote: avt
        Vanya No. 4, declaring himself king and taking Kazan, he cut out, according to the testament of Genghis Khan, all who have not grown to cart checks "

        Proof, pliz? For Kazan, in fact, two branches of the khans were cut, one of which (Kasimov) was roofed by Moscow. And the Kasimov khans have always been faithful vassals of Moscow - and in the army that took Kazan, there were about half of the Kasimov Tatars. The massacre was terrible precisely because it was, in fact, a civil war - but it mainly concerned “tough guys”, and it was simply economically inexpedient to “equalize with the cart axis”!
        1. avt
          avt 11 November 2017 21: 45 New
          +1
          Quote: Weyland
          Proof, pliz? For Kazan, in fact, two branches of the khans were cut, one of which (Kasimov) was roofed by Moscow.
          One of which was headed by .. the newly-appeared, directly self-proclaimed Tsar Ivan bully(Nothing that he took this FIRST title?) What do you yourself declare
          Quote: Weyland
          And the Kasimov khans have always been faithful vassals of Moscow - and in the army,
          Just the same thing, see this picture - the Kasimovs come in Van and say - ,, however, we’ll be cut with the Kazan, “But he didn’t say to them,“ You didn’t mistake who is the king who declares war !? ” And they told him - ,, Late Vanya, the arrow has already been scored. "bully
          Quote: Weyland
          and to "equate with the cart axis" the common people was simply not economically feasible!

          Well, yes, well, yes ... it’s about knowing the Kazan then they said - the Kazan orphan wassat Economy understand ....
  3. Settlement Oparyshev
    Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 09: 28 New
    +2
    Popular even in the UK. Yes, there is a popular topic on Tartarria, which is possible. Yes, horseback riding for 5 thousand km. from the bowels of ancient Mongolia, it is impressive. Only here the cavalry of SMBudenny was accompanied by trains with food and food for the soldiers. But what Genghis Khan drove the food to is not clear.
    With Russia, you got excited too. What would Russia be, for this you need a transport system, for the quick supply of troops, means of communication, otherwise there is no power without communication.
    So, as the Great Lenin advised, study ..
    1. ando_bor
      ando_bor 11 November 2017 09: 43 New
      +3
      Quote: pp to Oparyshev
      But what feed Genghis Khan drove is not clear.

      The Mongolian horse, the basis of the logistics of the Mongols, it does not require food, and is itself food for the fighters, the Mongols won only where their horse found food, in those climatic conditions.
      And then powerful climatic changes took place, - the Mongols began to climate, they multiplied, united and flooded.
      1. Settlement Oparyshev
        Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 11: 19 New
        +1
        Impressed, this approach explains a lot. In this way, many white spots of History can be explained.
      2. Setrac
        Setrac 11 November 2017 12: 37 New
        +2
        Quote: ando_bor
        The Mongolian horse, the basis of the logistics of the Mongols, it does not require food, and is itself food for the fighters, the Mongols won only where their horse found food, in those climatic conditions.

        Donkey fighting is the path to defeat.
        1. ando_bor
          ando_bor 11 November 2017 15: 06 New
          +1
          Quote: Setrac
          Donkey fighting is the path to defeat.

          Looking where, from Pliev’s memoirs - beautiful, powerful trophy horses - everyone had a rest even in the area of ​​concentration, before the start of the Kwantung operations, despite the canopies built for them, the Russians were ill, but acclimated, the Mongols felt fine, and there was no need to feed them , - lived on the pasture, - had to learn to eat from a sack.
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 11 November 2017 15: 21 New
            +2
            Quote: ando_bor
            the Mongolians felt great, and they did not need to be fed

            The fact that they did not die does not mean that they can be fought. The mice didn’t die of starvation either, but for some reason there is no mouse cavalry.
            Quote: ando_bor
            I had to learn to eat from a sack

            What for? If they felt great on the pasture? Maybe because everything was not so beautiful? They, the Mongolian horses, didn’t feel great at the pasture, they simply died of starvation a little later than European horses used to plentiful food.
            1. ando_bor
              ando_bor 11 November 2017 19: 33 New
              0
              Quote: Setrac
              Yoshi, too, did not die of starvation, but for some reason there is no mouse cavalry.

              The Germans in Mongolia died, all of them are gone - there is no one to fight, they died not from hunger, from the heat, but the Mongols drove to Berlin.
              They taught us to feed, because in conditions of a long march and military operations it is not possible to graze horses, and there were deserts ahead, where the Mongolian did not feed.
              1. Setrac
                Setrac 11 November 2017 20: 21 New
                0
                Your thought is so subtle that it is not visible.
            2. Settlement Oparyshev
              Settlement Oparyshev 12 November 2017 12: 17 New
              0
              because the Tatar-Mongols were lodars, worse than gypsies and did not harvest hay and provisions at all. From this, horses are also dead-looking. But in battle, there is no worse Mongolian horse.
        2. Weyland
          Weyland 11 November 2017 21: 31 New
          +2
          Quote: Setrac
          Donkey fighting is the path to defeat.

          On donkeys, yes, for they are thermophilic (although in the same Sumer, where it is warm, they were harnessed to war chariots - well, the Sumerians did not have horses ...). But the Mongolian horse - on the contrary, is hardy. You actually know that Ulan Bator - the coldest the capital in the world (and Moscow now turned out to be only in 3rd place - through the efforts of Nurik, who dragged the capital of Kazakhstan into this refrigerator - Astana aka Satan)
      3. Settlement Oparyshev
        Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 12: 55 New
        +1
        And of course, in Tartaria and Muscovy, in the winter there are only two snowdrifts, the horse gets food from under the snow, but how will the warriors eat it on a knife .. new. And where can I get a cake with horse meat? You won’t take so much grain with you. even horse thieves and pastoralists do not grow cereals.
        1. ando_bor
          ando_bor 11 November 2017 14: 36 New
          0
          Quote: pp to Oparyshev
          And of course, in Tartary and Muscovy, in the winter there are only two snowdrifts a meter, a horse gets food from under the snow, and how the warriors eat it on a knife ..news.

          It should be understood that before the Mongols came to Russia, Mongolia came there, - the forests are burning, the fields are burning, - there is nothing to eat, they all fight among themselves - they are reduced, in accordance with the reduced resources, and then there are the Mongols who like this weather, and they no equal in such conditions.
        2. Dzungar
          Dzungar 11 November 2017 19: 55 New
          +3
          You come to us and you will see how our horses are with us and now they themselves graze in the fields, even in cold weather. All winter, all winter on the pasture ... They also go on fat, and this is our delicacy - arbin is called ....
          1. Settlement Oparyshev
            Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 22: 10 New
            +1
            I almost convinced that there was a hike. There was a little such incomprehension about the buckles on horse girths and arrowheads. Who forged them in large quantities? It is clear that it’s not the Mongols, but who then? How can you get out? Fun to read.
            1. Dzungar
              Dzungar 11 November 2017 22: 32 New
              +2
              An old song .... I was always surprised by stupid people (it won’t be said about you), who said, even yelled, something like this: WHERE DO THEY TAKE A TON OF IRON IMMEDIATELY ...? Can not be..!!! There was nowhere for them to take so much, and right away ... !!! My question is: is there anything that the Chinas at least one millennium BC constantly fought with nomads from the north? That is, from the territory of present-day Mongolia ... They fought, traded. This is not counting their own Mongolian blacksmithing traditions. My family is considered a blacksmith. They are Darkhans. And this does not appear yesterday - it has been preserved for centuries. The Founder of the Family is from me in TWO.ATI ONE generation, and this is at least 500 years old ... And to someone who doesn’t believe this, you can forge in the steppe, I advise you to look in YouTube forge forging organized in the field ... EASY! Well, and what do you think: for more than two millennia, it is difficult for people to acquire the necessary amount of steel and iron, despite the fact that before the invasion of Russia tens of years of wars, with abundant production, preceded ....?
              1. Settlement Oparyshev
                Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 22: 54 New
                0
                Well, it became known who else invented metallurgy. Already the second challenger. Already so much wound up. And climate disasters and autumn-winter 20-year crossings on dwarf horses feeding on experimental food and thousands of horseback riders, and even having come to Russia and robbed a village in two houses, Tatar-Mongols left loaded with prey.
                1. Dzungar
                  Dzungar 11 November 2017 23: 03 New
                  +2
                  About the invention of metallurgy by us - this is yours and ONLY thoughts. Such an inept attempt to pervert and turn upside down .... Perhaps someone will believe ...
                  1. Settlement Oparyshev
                    Settlement Oparyshev 12 November 2017 12: 21 New
                    0
                    Why are you shy? You also have the name "blacksmith" in our translation. Again, it’s my fault that the Mongol Tatars themselves ironed themselves in abundance. Apparently Genghis Khan was a good leader.
                2. Dzungar
                  Dzungar 11 November 2017 23: 06 New
                  +2
                  You have a good nickname. Immediately calls asso.ia.ii. And you read your comments, so you become sure of suspicions .... Ggg. Sorry if cho ....
                3. Dzungar
                  Dzungar 11 November 2017 23: 29 New
                  +2
                  Your conclusion from my words is unique on the one hand, on the other hand, it’s a common thing, if you know that you are dealing with a certain category of people ... They are still talking about them * at least in the forehead, that on the forehead * ... Or something about * God's dew * ...
          2. Settlement Oparyshev
            Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 23: 02 New
            0
            a normal horse needs 15 kg of different food per day, including salt. And the minimum horse seems to have enough production from under the snow, but whether she will have enough strength to go. The Chigizhan brigade moved well even if not on elephants, otherwise the elephants drink daily in a bucket of vodka .
          3. Seal
            Seal 16 November 2017 13: 53 New
            +2
            All winter, all winter on pasture ..

            What is the height of the snow cover?
            How often is nast?
            1. Dzungar
              Dzungar 23 November 2017 19: 27 New
              0
              Snow cover in open spaces - fields, steppes - cm 30, no more, or even less ... Nast happens, but this is not a problem, just more dense snow. Much worse than Jute is the death of cattle from non-feed, when an ice crust forms on the surface of the snow after a thaw. This is a disaster. But it is a very rare occurrence ... I say by what I saw
        3. Dzungar
          Dzungar 11 November 2017 22: 59 New
          +2
          For a long time, the last time they saw snowdrifts of two meters in Muscovy ....?
          1. Settlement Oparyshev
            Settlement Oparyshev 12 November 2017 12: 22 New
            +1
            I saw a long time in 1017. As I see you now.
      4. Seal
        Seal 14 November 2017 11: 12 New
        +1
        The Mongolian horse, the basis of the logistics of the Mongols, it does not require feed, and is itself food for the fighters,

        The Mongolian horse is wide-bodied, but small, bony, with a heavy hunchbacked head and small eyes. Her neck is short with a low output, her ears are short; withers low, often massive, turning into a long straight back. Average measurements of mares (cm): height at the withers 127, oblique length 134, chest circumference 154, metacarpus circumference 16,8. The weight of mares is 250-300 kg.
        At present, race horses in Mongolia are obtained by crossing local mares with thoroughbred stallions of other species.

        On the Internet, there is an impression of modern tourists from riding a Mongolian horse:

        “On a day, Mongolian horses with a rider usually walk up to 40 kilometers. Their management requires minimal skills. You need to sit on the side of the cinch and the horse is urged in Mongolian: Chu-Chu, and to customize with words - Chuh, chuh - "faster, faster." The truth is that after this she will briskly run unlikely - the Mongolian horse is stunted and rather lazy in comparison with the Arabian horses, it is worth loosening the reins a little, as it immediately stops and starts to pluck grass slowly. Most Mongolian horses by European standards are just ponies (less than 1,5 meters). But these stunted horses are very unpretentious and hardy, they can move all day, almost without stops. "

        Relative endurance is achieved by saving power, i.e. slowness. In nature, a Mongolian horse slowly walks along the steppe, pinching grass all day. Its main task for the summer is to go in for weight, prepare to survive the winter.
        The Mongolian horse, of course, requires feed. But in Mongolian conditions, where the climate is sharply continental, and winters are cold, but not very snowy, Mongolian horses with the depth of fallen snow up to 20-25 cm and in the absence of infusion can themselves get grass from under the fluffy snow.
        But if a cyclone suddenly arrives .... “Severe winters, snowstorms, and especially ice, often in the steppes, make it very difficult for horses to get food from under the snow. Under these conditions, animals turn into real skeletons by the end of winter, and many of them, especially young ones, die. ”
        What should a poor Mongolian horse do in our snowy Vladimir forests and fields, where the height of the snow cover exceeds the height of the Mongolian horse ?? Well, except that in the snow with grief, that the mountain historians drove her here, admirers of “Genghis Khan” - drown laughing laughing
        1. Dzungar
          Dzungar 23 November 2017 19: 42 New
          0
          Mongolian horses had no reason to drown in the snow. Because they walked along the same roads that the locals themselves did. Or do you think that with the onset of cold weather and snowfall in Russia all communication ceased ....? Gyyy. There was also enough fodder - the Russian peasants, every year, mowed enough hay for cattle in the winter. And this cattle was already going for food to the valiant Mongol warriors ... Everyone is well-fed and satisfied. They didn’t stop at the place, they moved on, and there was still forage, more cattle .... Everything was ready. Everything is simple. Moreover, according to one of the new versions of the history of those events, Prince Yaroslav, overwhelmed by a thirst for power and calling for the help of these very Mongols, himself provided them with fodder and food, gave them guides ... But what, are you not people or something ...? And everything human was not alien to your ancestors, including the thirst for power, betrayal, lies, deceit and all other vices of mankind .... And there weren’t many Mongols then, it turns out. Everything should have been enough for everyone ....
        2. Dzungar
          Dzungar 23 November 2017 19: 53 New
          0
          Kent, my colleague and I drove from Irkutsk to Moscow on Porsche Cayenne. At a certain point they began to overtake a convoy of the same type of trucks, of some kind of transport company. Those drove slowly, something about 80 km / h. My Kent, while driving, overtook them for a long time, wedging between these wagons. Nakone. overtook them and seemed to go far ahead, sometimes flooding for 150-160 km / h ... We decided to eat and stopped at a restaurant near the road. We got out of the car, stretched ourselves, stretched our arms, and were surprised to see this convoy of trucks rolling slowly with their former, but constant speed ... What is the point ...? To go far, it is not necessary to jump fast and hard. You just need to drive slowly but at a constant average speed. You go quietly (without straining) - you will continue. And not necessarily later ...
    2. tlauicol
      tlauicol 11 November 2017 11: 24 New
      0
      These 5 thousand kilometers they passed in 20 years
      1. Settlement Oparyshev
        Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 22: 50 New
        +1
        Yes, who would argue. We don’t know anything that happened 20 years ago, and what is happening now. But with firm confidence we describe the subtleties of events 700 years ago. Let us treat all this as fairy tales, no more.
        1. Dzungar
          Dzungar 11 November 2017 23: 32 New
          +1
          We don’t remember about minor and insignificant events a year ago .... But some people here know and remember about the * great art empire of ancient Rus * the existing horseradish knows when ....
    3. Setrac
      Setrac 11 November 2017 12: 35 New
      +2
      Quote: pp to Oparyshev
      . What would Russia be, for this we need a transport system, for the quick supply of troops, means of communication, otherwise without power there is no power.

      The river system is an excellent transport artery. Russians are a river people, or rather a race.
    4. Dzungar
      Dzungar 11 November 2017 19: 50 New
      +2
      In 1935, the Turkmen horsemen overcame 84 km from Ashgabat to Moscow in 4300 days ... And you think 5300 km from the place of Kurultay in Eastern Mongolia, where it was decided to march to Russia and further to Europe in THOUSAND TWENTY-THREE FIVE. - FOR TWO YEARS before the invasion of Russia, before the Volga, the Mongols could not pass ...? FOR TWO YEARS ....
      1. Settlement Oparyshev
        Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 20: 22 New
        +1
        Again 25! It’s difficult to compare the Mongolian horse and the Buddenovskaya horses and other breeds. Were there any roads? Feeding and accommodation centers were arranged in the settlements. It's obvious. But in the old days there were no roads, people moved along the rivers. File: /// home / gr /% D0% 97% D0% B0% D0% B3%
        D1%80%D1%83%D0%B7%D0%BA%D0%B8/492658918.jpg
        1. Dzungar
          Dzungar 11 November 2017 21: 19 New
          +2
          Nobody bothers you to move along the rivers ... Please ... A horse is better on the steppes that stretch from Khingan to the Black Sea. Your answer very well confirms the narrowness of thinking of a resident of the forest zone, and even a modern resident of cities .... There are those who even in the forehead, even in the forehead - they don’t understand many things ...
          1. Seal
            Seal 14 November 2017 11: 22 New
            +1
            Quote: Dzungar
            Nobody bothers you to move along the rivers ... Please ...

            The length of the Moscow river along the riverbed within the city is 80 kilometers.
            The same distance in a straight line is 33 kilometers.
            The distance from Moscow to Nizhny Novgorod is 400 kilometers.
            The distance from the Moscow Southern River Station to the River Station of Nizhny Novgorod by water is 1018 kilometers.
        2. Dzungar
          Dzungar 11 November 2017 21: 27 New
          +1
          You have already been told how Budenny's horses died in the Mongolian steppes ....
        3. Dzungar
          Dzungar 11 November 2017 23: 35 New
          +1
          [media = http: //agronomam.com/konevodstvo/istoriya-
          i-xarakter-mongolskix-loshadej.html] Read about our horses ...
        4. Seal
          Seal 14 November 2017 11: 21 New
          +2
          Quote: pp to Oparyshev
          And in the old days there were no roads, they moved along the rivers


          The length of the Moscow river along the riverbed within the city is 80 kilometers.
          The same distance in a straight line is 33 kilometers.

          The distance from Moscow to Nizhny Novgorod is 400 kilometers.
          The distance from the Moscow Southern River Station to the River Station of Nizhny Novgorod by water is 1018 kilometers.
      2. Setrac
        Setrac 11 November 2017 20: 32 New
        +1
        Quote: Dzungar
        Turkmen horsemen in 1935 over 84 days covered 4300 km from Ashgabat to Moscow ...

        In 1935, the Mongols would have overcome if they were to be transported oats by echelons.
        1. Dzungar
          Dzungar 11 November 2017 21: 22 New
          +2
          Another resident of a modern city .... Yes, of course, they brought oats. Not only echelons, on steamboats along the line, were dropped from planes ....
          1. badens1111
            badens1111 11 November 2017 21: 25 New
            +1
            Quote: Dzungar
            Another resident of a modern city.

            Not ... a nomad ... tell us a tale ... snow, blizzard, snow scab ... do not dig the horses ... even the Mongolians, what will they eat :?
            Every equestrian .. two groovy. How much fodder is needed:
            1. Dzungar
              Dzungar 11 November 2017 21: 57 New
              +2
              You, the inhabitants of European cities, that you don’t tell, you still won’t believe .... And with your own eyes you are all too lazy to see it, if not in vain ... Then what is the point of trying to explain all this ...?
              1. badens1111
                badens1111 11 November 2017 22: 09 New
                +1
                Quote: Dzungar
                Sense then, what kind of attempt to explain all this ...?

                IN THIS IT IS A BUSINESS TO EXPLAIN, YOU .. NOTHING CAN.
                1. Dzungar
                  Dzungar 11 November 2017 22: 37 New
                  +1
                  If it’s immediately clear that your words are like a scream into a bottomless hole, or at least like blows to a stump (Gee Gee Gee) - then what's the point of explaining what ...? If you just piss into this hole, or shit on this stump .... I ask you not to confuse ....
                2. ando_bor
                  ando_bor 12 November 2017 08: 39 New
                  0
                  Quote: badens1111
                  IN THIS IT IS A BUSINESS TO EXPLAIN, YOU .. NOTHING CAN.

                  - How to explain higher mathematics to people who do not know simple arithmetic operations?
                  - To school, for the primer.
              2. ando_bor
                ando_bor 12 November 2017 08: 35 New
                +1
                Quote: Dzungar
                You, the inhabitants of European cities, that do not say you still do not believe ....

                Yes, they are trolling, - I saw all this with my own eyes, and how the climate changed, I see the same thing, I am a geologist with thirty years of experience, and what historical movers occurred in this case, because I am interested in history. One can say that the Mongols traveled all the way from Mongolia to Olomouc in the Czech Republic on foot, and I can clearly see how and under what conditions the Mongols did this, the Mongols weren’t "horse" - their weather, and the farmers in terrible decline, powerful climate changes undermined their resource base, in the whole history of civilization, changes were only more powerful than 1200 BC, which led to the collapse of the Bronze Age.
                1. Settlement Oparyshev
                  Settlement Oparyshev 12 November 2017 12: 25 New
                  0
                  The Mongols reached the Czech Republic !! Abaldet! ​​And the Czech Republic was then?
                  1. Mangel olys
                    12 November 2017 16: 14 New
                    +2
                    I am amazed how many he served in the army, but I haven’t seen such ensigns yet ... and the uneducated. You should at least be interested in history before being listed in a trolling agency. You only engage in fishing tolling, and even then, if you can.
                    1. Settlement Oparyshev
                      Settlement Oparyshev 12 November 2017 16: 42 New
                      0
                      Yes, you served in the Army, and the Army fell apart from such servants. But we transferred the normal Army to you, and you! ... And do not forget that they already scribbled an overcoat on me, and then only ..or you.
                      1. Mangel olys
                        12 November 2017 19: 06 New
                        +1
                        Well then, a gentleman cannot deprive the lady pleasant illusions. Farewell.
              3. Setrac
                Setrac 12 November 2017 21: 29 New
                +1
                Quote: Dzungar
                You, the inhabitants of European cities, that do not say you still do not believe ....

                so big, and already a dzungar .... Where did you see the inhabitants of cities, for example, I am a real rural resident.
        2. Dzungar
          Dzungar 11 November 2017 21: 25 New
          +1
          In the summer of 1935, an equestrian detachment departed from Ashgabat to Moscow - in thirty-eight days, thirty horsemen traveled the most difficult route with a length of 84 kilometers, including a 4300-kilometer throw through Karakum, an exhausting passage along the Ustyurt plateau, crossing the Kazakh steppes, Russian forest-steppe zones .... . Yes of course. There are railways everywhere, every 50 km at least ....
          1. badens1111
            badens1111 11 November 2017 21: 33 New
            +1
            Quote: Dzungar
            In the summer of 1935 from Ashgabat to Moscow

            Provided with power. This is a fact. .
            1. Dzungar
              Dzungar 11 November 2017 21: 59 New
              +1
              The fact in the studio is to ensure the equestrian passage of the Turkmens in 1935 with forage from the railway echelons ....
    5. protoss
      protoss 12 November 2017 01: 20 New
      +2
      maggots, why jump from Mongolia itself? By 1237, the western borders of the Mongol Empire were much closer
      1. Settlement Oparyshev
        Settlement Oparyshev 12 November 2017 12: 26 New
        +1
        I’m not worried about the results. The Mongols drove ushkuiki as they wanted, only the Mongols don’t know about it.
    6. zoolu350
      zoolu350 13 November 2017 05: 56 New
      0
      What 5000 km. and Mongolia? The bridgehead for the attack on the Volga Bulgaria was on the territory of the Ulus Dzhuchi, where the imperial troops gathered. Then the operation against the Volga Bulgaria, replenishment of the contingent and the beginning of operations against the Russian principalities from the Volga bridgehead.
  4. ando_bor
    ando_bor 11 November 2017 09: 32 New
    +2
    Genghis Khan, of course, is a great person, and therefore won the “democratic elections” when it all began, but he did not organize all these movers — these were natural, natural-historical phenomena.
  5. parusnik
    parusnik 11 November 2017 10: 59 New
    +2
    To begin with, I propose that FC Ufa be renamed to FC Genghis Khan, with this name and the champions of Russia they will become and will tear everyone in Europe ...
  6. Cartalon
    Cartalon 11 November 2017 11: 44 New
    +4
    Not an article, but a foolishness for swearing in the comments.
    1. Dzungar
      Dzungar 11 November 2017 19: 59 New
      +1
      Someone needs it ... A collision is being organized on one of the parts of history, and from different, as if, sides ... They will destroy it, then another, third ... They will destroy everything, but they won’t come up with a new one, and if they come up with, then they themselves will get confused, as happens with a lie ...
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 11 November 2017 20: 34 New
        +2
        Quote: Dzungar
        They will destroy everything, but they won’t come up with a new one, and if they come up with it, then they themselves will get confused, as it happens with a lie ...

        So already confused, because the story that you so zealously defend is originally a lie invented by the Communists, before that it was a lie invented by the Germans for the Russians.
        1. Dzungar
          Dzungar 11 November 2017 21: 30 New
          +1
          And why didn’t they mention * lie * Rashid-Ad-din ...? * Lies * of Chinese annals ...? * Lies * * The Secret Tales of the Mongols * .... It seems to me that you are seriously ill - you think that EVERYTHING LIES .... A very revealing symptom. You may not answer - EVERYTHING IS CLEAR WITH YOU
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 12 November 2017 02: 22 New
            +3
            Quote: Dzungar
            It seems to me that you are seriously ill - you think that EVERYTHING LIES ....

            Those who believe historians are seriously ill. History is an instrument of propaganda and there is not a drop of truth in it.
            Quote: Dzungar
            And why didn’t they mention * lie * Rashid-Ad-din ...? * Lies * of Chinese annals ...? * Lies * * The Secret Tales of the Mongols * ....

            Plenty of bukafa to write, laziness.
            1. Dzungar
              Dzungar 12 November 2017 06: 37 New
              +1
              There is such a principle for scouts: if there are two or more coincidences, and from completely different sources, then this is no longer a coincidence. This is already true information ... It is impossible to imagine such a strategic operation on misinformation of the world public at that time, in the Middle Ages - from China to Europe, and only in order to fool Russia, Russia ..... ..
              1. Setrac
                Setrac 12 November 2017 16: 07 New
                +3
                Quote: Dzungar
                It is impossible to imagine such a strategic operation on misinformation. And the world public at that time, in the Middle Ages - from China to Europe, and only in order to fool Russia, Russia .......

                There are several objections here.
                Firstly, then, several centuries ago, there were religious structures that spanned the whole world.
                Secondly, it was not misinformation, there was no history as such, it was written from scratch, it was false from the beginning, and they deliberately lied.
                Thirdly, not only Russia is deceived, but the whole world.

                You see, in contrast to such sciences as mathematics, physics, chemistry, where the basis of education is understanding, there is no understanding in history, you take the word for the so-called "authorities" from history without understanding how they came to certain conclusions, and No way - they have an order what should be the story.
              2. Seal
                Seal 20 November 2017 11: 18 New
                +2
                Quote: Dzungar
                There is such a principle for scouts: if there are two or more coincidences, and from completely different sources, then this is no longer a coincidence. This is already true information ... It is impossible to imagine such a strategic operation on misinformation of the world public at that time, in the Middle Ages - from China to Europe, and only in order to fool Russia, Russia ..... ..

                Why Russia? Why be fooled? Just created History.
                In fact, at the beginning, Mrs. "History" was no different from her sisters, "Geography" and "Theology." By and large, all three of these sciences could be attributed to the "fantasy" genre. Theology dealt with the question of the number of devils that could fit on the tip of the needle, about all sorts of “miracles,” “resurrection,” and immaculate conceptions. Geography fed the people with stories about the structure of the Earth, where Mount Ararat sticks out in a box on one side, because of which the Moon and the Sun alternately appear on the other sea-ocean, and in the middle - Jerusalem. Then, even when it was decided that the Earth was a bit more complicated than a box with Mount Ararat and asterisks nailed to the inside of the box, then we see pictures of a traveler reaching the horizon looking “out of the horizon”. The story in the stories also did not lag behind. What was important in all of them was that all the actions took place somewhere far away. In geography - somewhere far away in space (you wouldn’t lie about a neighboring village). Recall the textbook "India, O esteemed my teacher, is located almost at the very edge of the earth’s disk, there is a lot of gold that gold-bearing ants tirelessly extract day and night, each of which is almost the size of a dog ..." In history, it’s somewhere far in time (you can’t lie too much about yesterday, although they’re trying, damn it). And in theology - both in space and in time at the same time. And then also in general in the "third dimension" - in the afterlife.
                That is, at the infant stage of the development of society, all three of these “sciences” were in the same childhood and were closely intertwined. Then geography was more fortunate. With the development of technology, the Earth became smaller and smaller, and at some point the Earth turned out to be fully described. And Geography moved to a different, higher quality, becoming a full-fledged science. Moreover, it has grown, branched. Appeared "economic geography", "physical geography." Theology (like religion in general) - remained at the same level of belief in miracles, that prayer can stop the sunset and so on. The story was somehow between them. The history of recent centuries is already a science (although the term "science" is not very applicable in my opinion, rather, a slightly different word is needed here). But in relation to the "old" or "ancient" times, History, as it was, remains basically fiction. After all, anyone who fantasized, in principle, did not want anything bad on a universal scale. Someone wanted to defend their house (castle) from the encroachments of a neighbor and therefore invented the history of their ancient noble origin, at the same time inventing the ancient rulers who gave this castle to his ancestors. Someone, on the contrary, argued that the current owner of the castle does not have any “historical rights” because (hereinafter there is a complete flight of imagination in compiling historical evidence). I believe that at first the genealogies with equal enthusiasm led to both the "great ancients" (including "Genghis Khan") and the "saints." But in relation to those who wanted to build a pedigree for the saints, the Church was pretty cleaned up (eliminated competitors in the process of hilling the saints, including those who were especially persistent with the help of fires). But with regard to binding to the ancient great secular - the church did not bother. Moreover, she began to use this technique. As a result, in Germany it turned out that almost every monastery was regularly visited by the "ancient emperors" solely with the aim of providing the monastery with some kind of privilege or privilege. But in the end, the quantity simply turned into quality. And out of many individual fantasies about the "ancient times" that sprawling tree grew up, which should now be called the "Traditional version of the history of the development of human society." But since the cat wept (that is, it simply doesn’t) have real confirmations of the TI version, some comrades, gentlemen and gentlemen, as soon as they see something incomprehensible to them, immediately declare this thing "antique". They found prince dyged at the bottom of the sea - announced that it was an "antique ram", found a fairly modern (modern - in the sense that they had recently been used, and in some places are used now) veterinarian’s tools to fix the treatment composition on a horse’s hoof (as well and camels and cows) - all ears buzz that this is the "ancient hipposandal" in which the "ancient ancient Roman cavalry" rode. Like small children, chesslovo. Entities multiply unnecessarily.
          2. Seal
            Seal 24 November 2017 14: 24 New
            +1
            Quote: Dzungar
            And why didn’t they mention * lie * Rashid-Ad-din ...?

            And, what, is it really necessary every time when it is mentioned, for example, "Gingerbread Man" - you need to clarify that this is a fairy tale?
            “... Having written several books about different subjects, I made a large number of separate lists with them. In addition, many respectable people, having read them, ordered them to make lists for themselves. On top of this, several copies of them were laid at my command in the mosque that I erected in Tabriz; in a part of the city called Rabh-er-Rashidi, with the aim that anyone who wishes could copy them to themselves ... After that, I came to want to copy all my works into one book, which would remain a memory of me, for those who will be after me; and so that they could bring equal benefits to both Arabs and Persians, I translated everything into Persian that I wrote in Persian and ordered several lists to be made from this translation, of which some were to remain separate, others were bound together ”
            . When this huge volume of the complete works of Rashid al-Din was copied to clean and bound, he ordered it to be stored in the vast building, which he designated as the place of his burial, and ordered that all who wish were allowed to make lists with it. In addition, he formally bequeathed that of the sums allocated by him for the maintenance of this building, some part should be paid annually for the correspondence of one copy of this full collection on large-format Baghdad paper, and that these copies should be sent to Muslim cities. Unfortunately, all the precautions did not bring the desired success. Most of the writings of Rashid al-Din did not reach usfalling victim to the turmoil that followed in the Persian Mongol Empire shortly after his death.
            We fix that most of the work of this author did not reach us at all. Regret was heard about this in the middle of the 19th century.
            In European libraries, only this one is the first volume. The other two either died completely, or exist somewhere in the East, abandoned. Their content is known to us only to the extent that the author himself speaks of it. The second included a description of the reign of Oljayt, and the history of all the dynasties about which only Rashid al-Din could find information, and all the peoples that were known in his time, including the Jews, Caesars, and others who before it was not expounded by any Muslim writer. Judging by this, it is unfortunate that the information gathered by Rashid al-Din in this volume may be lost forever; but even more sensitive for us should be the loss of the third volume, in which he enclosed a darkness of geographical information, which was probably more accurate and detailed, especially in relation to the internal countries of Central Asia, so familiar to his contemporaries; information that would probably save us from great work, misunderstandings and investigations about the topography of these now so few known lands. No matter how curious, perhaps, some indications of him would show us the position of the Pits but the whole space of the Mongol Empire!

            Like this. Only 1 volume out of 3
            But what is there that reached us? And there is the following:
            In the title "The story of Genghis Khan from the time of his birth from the beginning of the year of Kaka, which is the year of the pig, corresponding to the months of 547 CE (1152-1153 AD) and dating back to the month of zul-kade (Jan 28. - February 26, 1153), until the next year of Kaka, which is also the year of the pig, corresponding to the months of 562 g. (1166–1167 * A.D.) and attributable to the beginning of the month of Rabbi II ”is mentioned twice "year of the pig."
            "Year of the pig" - among Muslims ?! Incredible !!! It is unbelievable that a Muslim who was without a doubt Rashid ad-Din would defile his work by mentioning this unclean animal for Muslims as the name of the year. Well, it would be a paragraph describing the vile deeds of someone, where the use of the term “pig” as a designation of the extreme degree of indignation of a Muslim author is still permissible. But so that the Muslim so calmly use this term as a designation of the year ?? !! This is incredible !!!
            And that's not all. After all, one must not forget that the twelve-year cycle connecting every year with some animal was until recently known only in China (Chin!). Consequently, the text of the "Collection of Annals" was edited in China in the XNUMXth century; then he came to Europe, and at the beginning of the XNUMXth century from France to Russia. The question arises, why was the text of a book of some ancient Persian corrected in China?
            This question can be answered with another question: "Why in Beijing in the 60s of the twentieth century erected a monument to Genghis Khan?" The doctrine is this: all the lands where the foot of the “Chinese” Genghis Khan stepped belong to China!
            By the way, about the very name of China, as "China".
            This term as the name of China was "brought" to Europe (and to Russia) only by the British after the 17th century. So how did this English term of the 13th century get into "Persian labor of the XNUMXth century" ????

            What else is interesting? Well, for example, the fact that, by the property of the Arabic alphabet, short vowels a, and, u are omitted in words. Therefore, the scribe on the same page allowed different styles for the same word. So, that the establishment of the correct pronunciation of some Mongolian words of the XIII-XIV centuries. based on the data of the Mongolian language of our days fails.

            How does the author (Rashid ad Din) define the borders of the "Mongol Empire" ??? And he defines them with his words: “When the time came for the khanation and domination of the world, Genghis Khan, his famous family and his great successors, they pacified and subjugated to themselves all the states of the populated part of the world, consisting of Northern China and South, from India and Sinda, Maverannahr and Turkestan, Syria and Byzantium, the countries of Ases and Uruses, Circassians and Kipchaks, Kelars and Bashkirs - in short, everything that extends from east to west and from north to south. ”
            Yes, the empire is great! But, in one paragraph, we read a phrase that causes bewilderment: “However, century after century, the reliable history of the Mongols and Türks was recorded in the Mongolian language and Mongolian writing, but was not collected and put in order; in the form of separate sections, it was stored in the treasury of the khans. She was hidden and hidden from reading by unauthorized persons and even her good people: they didn’t trust anyone, fearing, and suddenly her readers would become knowledgeable and receive information about all the events recorded in it».
            Then why was all this written? How did everything become known to Rashid al-Din in the XNUMXth century? It is felt that this is a late insert, which was required to explain the subsequent misunderstandings and inconsistencies that arose when editing the work of Rashid al-Din.
            East is a delicate matter. hi
  7. saigon
    saigon 11 November 2017 12: 00 New
    +1
    Our Genius Khan Khan already turned into a kagan, and even more democratically on the kurultai chosen popularly.!
    About the Mongols, only apparently the docent did not hear, he had all the Tatars.
    But how beautifully primitive robbery is covered by the great ideals of peace and progress, and that the horde created by this type could not help robbing we are silent modestly.
    Well and somehow the assistant professor forgets that it was his ancestors of the Bulgars who were probably the first to break the great conquerors of the Lyule.
    1. Mangel olys
      11 November 2017 12: 56 New
      +1
      They tried to make us Bulgars, so that we were not Tatars, but after the decree of 1944, the pseudoscientific hysteria on the vulgarization of Tatars intensified many times. Do not believe everything that official historians write.
      1. Romey
        Romey 11 November 2017 13: 37 New
        +1
        As far as I know from ethnography, the Mongols are Mongols (the ones from the Golden Oron and the Blue Kerulen), and the Tatars and Bashkirs are the Turks, descendants of the Bulgarians, the Polovtsy and the Kipchaks.
        1. Mangel olys
          11 November 2017 14: 07 New
          0
          And the modern Mongols, the descendants of the Mongols from Oron and Kerulen? wink
          1. Dzungar
            Dzungar 11 November 2017 20: 04 New
            +1
            OF COURSE! And the language is the same, and the customs are the same. And the story is the same ....
          2. zoolu350
            zoolu350 13 November 2017 06: 04 New
            +1
            No, these are the Khalkha-Mongols, who carved the remnants of the Mongol Turks at the beginning of the Qing dynasty, for the Mongol Türks were considered the successors of the Northern Yuan dynasty, and the competitors of the new dynasty were not needed by the Manjurs.
        2. The centurion
          The centurion 11 November 2017 15: 54 New
          +2
          Quote: romey
          As far as I know from ethnography, the Mongols are Mongols (the ones from the Golden Oron and the Blue Kerulen), and the Tatars and Bashkirs are the Turks, descendants of the Bulgarians, the Polovtsy and the Kipchaks.

          “After the bloody battles of 1223, the Mongols went back to the Volga steppe, and for some time nothing was heard of them. Mongol leader Genghis Khan soon died, dividing the giant empire he created between his descendants. Grandson of Genghis Khan Batu led the western limits of the Mongolian possessions (Ulus Juchi ) and, fulfilling the precepts of his grandfather, he had to expand them as far as possible to the west. The Persian historian Rashid-ad-Din wrote about this covenant in his “Collection of Chronicles”: “Juchi, on the basis of the greatest command of Genghis Khan go to the army to conquer all the regions of the north, that is, Ibir-Sibir, Bulgar, Desht-i-Kipchak (Polovtsian steppes), Bashkird, Rus and Cherkas to Khazar Derbent, and subordinate them to their power. ”By the resolution of Kurultay 1235, which passed in the capital of the Mongolian Empire, Karokorum, an all-Mongolian Western expedition to the Atlantic coast, a campaign to the “last (extreme) sea.” was assigned to 1237. Dozens of tumens from the entire Mongolian empire were mobilized in the campaign, 14 Tsarevich-Chingizids were mobilized grandchildren and great-grandchildren of Genghis Khan. Khan Batu was appointed commander-in-chief; a veteran of the Western campaigns Subeyi was in charge of the training. The entire 1236 was spent on training camps and training. In the spring of 1237, the Mongols and the nomadic tribes under their control (in Russian history called the Tatars) concentrated on the territory of the Bashkirs who were recently subdued by Subedei. According to the Mongolian custom, they called all the allied and Mongolian peoples “Tatars”, which meant “other, alien”, i.e. not the Mongols. Indeed, in the ancient Turkic language (as well as in some modern Turkic languages) the word “tat” means a stranger, a foreigner, a stranger. The end of “ar” (er, ir) means a person, a man, a husband. This Turkic ethnonym is used in many names of peoples and tribes with the end of “ar, ir”: Tatars, Khazars, Bulgars, Avars, Madzhars, Bashkirs, etc. The Mongol custom to call all aliens in one word took root later in Russia. For many centuries, all non-Russian peoples of the south-east were also called Tatars by the Russians, and all non-Russian peoples of the West were called Germans (“not we”). "
        3. Dzungar
          Dzungar 11 November 2017 20: 03 New
          +2
          Exactly! Only from Onon ... New formations simply appeared, or those claiming it - Kazakhs, Tatars, Bashkirs. And they demand a piece of history .... And they act according to the principle: shout louder and a lot - you look with time they will agree with them ....
          1. Alex1117
            Alex1117 22 November 2017 06: 14 New
            +2
            Everything is logical. Ordinary racket. Only historical. If someone got a freebie as they called it the “Genghis Khan brand”, where you can raise big grandmothers from scratch, then it’s absolutely clear that there should have been a lot of other applicants for this freebie. And she was found. Why be offended? Need to share.
        4. Weyland
          Weyland 11 November 2017 21: 43 New
          +1
          Quote: romey
          Tatars and Bashkirs are Turks, descendants of the Bulgars, Polovtsy and Kipchaks.

          There are also many Finno-Finns mixed in. “Asian Hungarians” lived in Bashkiria.
      2. saigon
        saigon 11 November 2017 16: 02 New
        +1
        Well, of course, I would rather believe an assistant professor than a story.
        Bulgaria existed oh how long before Genghis Khan, although of course from now it is more visible.
    2. Weyland
      Weyland 11 November 2017 21: 41 New
      0
      Quote: saigon
      and even more democratic on the Kurultai chosen popularly.!

      In fact, his popular election is a well-known fact. For a moment, the Mongols at that time were at the historical stage of the so-called "military democracy"
      1. saigon
        saigon 12 November 2017 08: 12 New
        0
        Kurultay is one thing, however, the election of Chingiz, not forgotten by KAGAN, according to the author of a whole docent, suggests that he confused 600 Mongols and Turks of the Turkic Kaganate for so many years.
        These are the things in the sciences of the difference in the name of the rulers do not see associate professors that the Turks. that the Mongols, that the Uighurs are all one, the main thing is that they rode on the cones and waved their sabers.
        It is sad and sad.
  8. Bersaglieri
    Bersaglieri 11 November 2017 12: 04 New
    0
    We are waiting for a similar creative from the historians of Kazakhstan :)
    1. Romey
      Romey 11 November 2017 13: 33 New
      0
      It was already, and for a long time, already in 1992.
    2. Weyland
      Weyland 11 November 2017 21: 44 New
      0
      Quote: Bersaglieri
      We are waiting for a similar creative from the historians of Kazakhstan :)

      Yes, the Kazakhs in this regard even noted 15-20 years ago, there it is no longer fashionable! laughing
  9. Curious
    Curious 11 November 2017 12: 27 New
    +2
    Genghis Khan was recognized by UNESCO "the greatest commander of two millennia." I propose contacting this respected organization so that they also recognize him as a “citizen of the world” so as not to offend representatives of large and small modern peoples, each of whom claims to be related to a “shocker of the universe.”
    This lawsuit began not today and not yesterday.
    In 2003, Kazakhs and the Chinese clashed in earnest. An international conference "Genghis Khan and Kazakh Statehood" was convened in Alma-Ata. The Kazakhstani elite has taken up the task of "returning" to the ethnic group of its hero with a full understanding of the seriousness of this issue.
    However, the Chinese are not going to concede. In Beijing, the mausoleum of Genghis Khan was erected. The "Shaker of the Universe" was officially included in the honorary register of the great Chinese emperors.
    The Mongols also did not hit their faces in the mud. The main state award of Mongolia, the Order of Genghis Khan, was established. Magnificent celebrations were accompanied by the laying of a memorial complex in the center of Ulaanbaatar with a 20-meter sculpture of Genghis Khan and 17-meter sculptures of nine of his military leaders, tentatively worth $ 19 million. International conferences and forums were organized, a large amount of specialized literature was published.
    Now the Tatars pulled themselves up. The Kyrgyz, Yakut, Kalmyks, by the way, also participate in this process of cardinal change in historical facts. So the main battle for the red-bearded stunner, apparently, is still to come.
    1. Mangel olys
      11 November 2017 13: 00 New
      0
      You write "red-bearded", but, as I know, the Khalkha-Mongols and Chinese by nature do not have facial hair. Except for mixed marriages. How then to understand this?
      1. Curious
        Curious 11 November 2017 15: 39 New
        +1
        There are no rules without exceptions. In addition, according to the theory of Chinese medicine, a thick beard is a sign of good work of the gallbladder, and the hieroglyph designating this very organ is also “courage” ... That is, the direct associative-cultural relationship “beard” is “courage”.
        That is why in the images of ancient military heroes you can always see them as bearded, especially personalities who turned into a myth, for example, Guan-di or Guan Yu. So Genghis Khan could well have a beard. Or they added it to him. According to the canons.
      2. Dzungar
        Dzungar 11 November 2017 20: 14 New
        +1
        I am pure Mongol, Buryat-Mongol. But since my ancestors exited Dzungaria, I can be called Dzungar. So my beard will be worse than that of many Russians ... You just need to shave more often
      3. Weyland
        Weyland 11 November 2017 21: 47 New
        0
        Quote: Mangel Alys
        as I know, the Khalkha-Mongols and Chinese by nature do not have facial hair.

        You are mistaken: about half of the Mongols are swarthy and without vegetation, and the second half is fair-skinned and densely bearded. By the way, judging by the Chinese miniatures, Genghis Khan's beards were in full swing. And the name of his clan "Borzhigin" in Mongolian means "blueokay "
    2. andrewkor
      andrewkor 11 November 2017 14: 43 New
      +2
      Altai, Altai do not forget!
    3. Dzungar
      Dzungar 11 November 2017 20: 11 New
      +3
      Kalmyks are Oirat Mongols. There are still Buryat-Mongols, and actually the Mongols — the Khalkha-Mongols and the Mongols of China .... These are all the same, who were once a single people — the Mongols of Chinggis Khan, and now they are divided, as the Russians were divided into Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians ...
      1. Curious
        Curious 11 November 2017 20: 56 New
        0
        Dear Jungar! No need to rush around the site and copy-paste Wikipedia in attempts to present yourself as an expert on the history of the Mongols. Wikipedia is not a fundamental source of information.
        Therefore, if you really have knowledge in this area, based on serious, academic sources of information, we are pleased to read it.
        In the history of the peoples who inhabited the territory of the Mongol Empire, there are still many debatable questions and there is something to write about if there is information.
        1. Dzungar
          Dzungar 11 November 2017 21: 33 New
          +1
          And what is Wikipedia ....? Yyyy Joke. I would ask you not to judge by yourself living on Wikipedia. For me, she is a prostitute of the West, and I look there EXTREMELY RARE
        2. Dzungar
          Dzungar 11 November 2017 21: 47 New
          +2
          The history of my people, common, not divided - I KNOW AND WITHOUT YOUR WIKIPEDIA .... And I don’t consider it necessary to drop here that huge layer of information. Firstly, a lot. Secondly - you are not interested. REALLY ... Because you already have your own opinion, but like a regular Wikipedia regular - it’s already difficult to change it ... And there’s no reason. It's your problem
          1. Curious
            Curious 11 November 2017 22: 58 New
            +1
            However, your comments in bold (19:35; 19:38) are Wikipedia copy-paste. Obviously this is just that rare case when you looked there.
            Regarding my life on Wikipedia - you have amused me and those who know me on the site.
            1. Dzungar
              Dzungar 11 November 2017 23: 09 New
              +2
              I don’t know what you’re talking about .... Wikipedia probably copied it from there .... Regarding your fun - it happens sometimes when people start to laugh ... laugh, that would hide a crooked grin from the truth heard ....
            2. Dzungar
              Dzungar 11 November 2017 23: 11 New
              +1
              One thing is interesting to me - how do you manage to c ... write here from four countries at once ....?
              1. Curious
                Curious 12 November 2017 00: 10 New
                +1
                You know, everyone who is familiar with the beginnings of computer science at the junior high school level is aware of the availability of VPN services. However, you, obviously, developing such qualities as rudeness and ignorance in yourself, did not get to computer science.
                By the way, rudeness is completely not in the character of the Mongols. In a word, as an object of discussion you are nobody and your name is in no way. Work on yourself, "a representative of the distinctive civilization of Central Asian nomads."
                1. Dzungar
                  Dzungar 12 November 2017 06: 28 New
                  +2
                  A certain category of debaters has this trick - to hang all kinds of sins on the opponent, and under the pretext of impossibility of communicating with such * unworthy *, having at the very * snout. .. Faced with this often, especially with the carriers of * great power *, namely - her arrogance, therefore, not surprised. You could say all that was said to me with a much better effect while standing in front of the mirror .... Bye
                  1. Curious
                    Curious 12 November 2017 13: 29 New
                    +1
                    This is not a technique or a "great power." This is an adequate reaction to your rude communication style. Return to my first comment, starting with the words "Dear Jungar" and containing constructive criticism. In response, you began to be rude and make yourself the owner of a golden payzi. Having received the corresponding answer, they were suddenly offended. What is there to be offended.
    4. Seal
      Seal 14 November 2017 11: 28 New
      +2
      Quote: Curious
      Genghis Khan was recognized by UNESCO "the greatest commander of two millennia."

      These are your fantasies. Just the Burkhan-Khaldun mountain range in northeastern Mongolia, in the vicinity of which according to legend Genghis Khan was born and was buried, was included in the UNESCO World Heritage List.
      UNESCO is not at all the body that issues certificates about whether someone was the “greatest commander”, “the great commander” or simply “the outstanding commander”.
      For such information you need in Sportloto. hi
      1. Curious
        Curious 14 November 2017 13: 47 New
        0
        Mount Burkhan-Khaldun, whose name is translated from the Mongolian language as "Sacred Willow"
        inscribed on the UNESCO World Heritage List in 2015.
        Genghis Khan was declared the Millennium Man in 2002.
        Before breaking with criticism, work with the primary sources, otherwise you will expose the President of the Republic of Buryatia as a liar.
        1. Seal
          Seal 15 November 2017 18: 32 New
          +2
          Quote: Curious
          Before breaking with criticism, work with the primary sources, otherwise you will expose the President of the Republic of Buryatia as a liar.

          Is UNESCO itself or the President of Buryatia the primary source for UNESCO? UNESCO is an official international body, all its documents are in the public domain. What does Mr. Tsydenov have to do with it?
          By the way, such a position as the President of Buryatia has not existed for 5 years. There is simply the Head of Buryatia.
          1. Curious
            Curious 15 November 2017 21: 42 New
            0
            Can’t you drop the link, where are the UNESCO documents for 2002?
            1. Seal
              Seal 16 November 2017 14: 03 New
              +2
              Hmm, so I was right in assuming that for you the primary source for UNESCO is not UNESCO itself, but the Head, of Buryatia? good
              The UNESCO publication, which contains all the reports and achievements of this organization, is the UNESCO Courier magazine. Already 10 years as it is published in Russian. But in the period of interest to us, the Russian version of the magazine was not yet. A collection of archived issues of the journal is available on the official website of UNESCO.
              The journal is published on the principle of free access under the Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 IGO license (CC-BY-SA 3.0 IGO (link is external)). Users of the contents of this publication agree to the terms of use of the UNESCO Open Access Data Warehouse.

              Good luck searching.
              I did not find anything on the official site of UNESCO that confirms your version that
              Genghis Khan was declared the Millennium Man in 2002.

              Maybe you are more lucky hi
              1. Curious
                Curious 16 November 2017 14: 42 New
                0
                And there is also a UNESCO database.
                It contains the full texts of more than 146 thousand UNESCO documents published since 1945, as well as metadata of materials from the UNESCO Library and documentation centers in field offices and UNESCO Institutes.
                I did not find this information in it either. However, it got into the network from somewhere. Question - from where? But it will become clear over time. I’m interested in something else - you are a Mongolophobe that is so stubbornly fighting with Genghis Khan?
  10. Gopnik
    Gopnik 11 November 2017 13: 49 New
    +2
    "It is no accident that Russia became the heir to the Great Mongol Empire and the successor of these ideas of Genghis Khan!"

    Russia is not the heir and successor of the Mongol Empire and Genghis Khan.
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 11 November 2017 15: 27 New
      +1
      Quote: Gopnik
      Russia is not the heir and successor of the Mongol Empire and Genghis Khan.

      A moot point! Do you know that the inhabitants of Kievan Rus called the Ryazan-Suzdal Rus - Zalesskaya Horde? Not some mythical Mongols, not Polovtsy, Pechenegs, Bulgars and others, namely the Russians called the Horde!
      1. Dzungar
        Dzungar 11 November 2017 20: 18 New
        +2
        Did Levashov tell you this ...? Or Zadornov (heaven for him) ...? Or maybe just Hinevich ...? I've heard about Zalesskaya Russia, but about the Zalesskaya Horde only from all sorts of fools .... But you are not like that ...
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 11 November 2017 20: 29 New
          +1
          Quote: Dzungar
          then Levashov told you ...? Or Zadornov (heaven for him) ...?

          Quote: Dzungar
          Or maybe just Hinevich ...?

          And who is it?
          Quote: Dzungar
          I've heard about Zalesskaya Russia, but about the Zalesskaya Horde only from all sorts of fools

          That is, you do not know what the word "horde" means in Russian?
          And the words with the same root and kindred to him: CHORD, ORDEN, ORDnung, ORDER, ORDER, PRIDE? Not aware of her?
          1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Gopnik
        Gopnik 12 November 2017 17: 24 New
        0
        No, I don’t know, because this was not. But then I am aware that there was no "Kievan Rus"
    2. The centurion
      The centurion 11 November 2017 15: 43 New
      +1
      Quote: Gopnik
      Russia is not the heir and successor of the Mongol Empire and Genghis Khan.

      This is which side to look at
      "In 1482, after the collapse of the Golden Horde, the Crimean, Nogai, Kazan, Kazak (Kazakh), Astrakhan and Siberian khanates and the Great Horde emerged. These pieces of the Horde were in constant hostility among themselves, as well as with Lithuania and the Moscow state. Even before the final disintegration of the Horde, Muscovites and Litvinians placed part of the Horde lands under their control during the inner-city strife, and the Lithuanian prince Olgerd was especially remarkable for the beginninglessness and unrest in the Horde, where by force and intellect and deception and possessions of many Russian principalities, including the territory of the Dnieper Cossacks (former black hoods) and set themselves broad goals: to end Moscow and the Golden Horde. The Dnieper Cossacks were armed forces to four themes (Tumenov) or to 40000 well-trained troops and proved to be weighty support for the policy of Prince Olgerd. And it was with 1482 that a new, three-century period of Eastern European history began - the period of the struggle for the Horde inheritance. At that time, few could have imagined that the state-of-the-art, although dynamically developing, Moscow principality would ultimately prove to be the winner in this titanic struggle. But less than a century after the collapse of the Horde, with Tsar Ivan IV the Terrible, Moscow would unite around itself all the northern Russian principalities and conquer a significant part of the Horde. At the end of the XVIII century. under Catherine II, almost the entire territory of the Golden Horde would be under Moscow authority. Having defeated the Crimea and Lithuania, the victorious grandees of the tsarina-Germans put a fat and final point in a centuries-old dispute over the Horde inheritance. Moreover, in the middle of the XX century. under Joseph Stalin, for a short time, the Muscovites would create a protectorate over the entire territory of the Great Mongol Empire, created in the 13th century. the work and genius of the Great Genghis Khan, including China. "
      1. Seal
        Seal 14 November 2017 11: 39 New
        +2
        Russia survived in many real wars. But our ancestors were not under any “yoke”. The version that Russia was under the Tatar yoke (which in the 18-19 centuries was transformed first into the "Tatar-Mongolian", then into the "Mongol-Tatar", and now many use the term "Mongolian" yoke ") was thrown to us by Catholics, revenge for the fact that our ancestors did not recognize the authority of the Pope. And so that we better swallow this main stuffing about the “300 year old yoke,” we wrapped it in a beautiful colorful wrapper from a number of “feats.” This includes the feat of the concrete Evpatiya Kolovrat ", and" Defense of Kozelsk. "Unfortunately, singing these feats, we thereby pr We extend and extend the life of this stupid version that the “Mongols” once allegedly conquered us and that we were allegedly under their “300-year-old yoke”.
        In our history, a huge number of real feats have been accomplished. We have something to chant in more than enough.
        And in relation to Evpathy Kolovrat, one must always make a reference that this feat is akin to the deeds of Heracles or Theseus. That is, from the field of heroic legends. Especially for young people. Otherwise, they can also take up the rotten idea that was born to us once at the Office of one of the Roman popes, that our Motherland could be captured by enemies for some time, but then we’ll surely get together and free ourselves, as if already once we succeeded in the "Mongol-Tatars". No, this liberal idea about the possible seizure of the homeland must be strangled in the bud. No enemy can capture our Motherland.
    3. Weyland
      Weyland 11 November 2017 21: 50 New
      0
      Quote: Gopnik
      Russia is not the heir and successor of the Mongol Empire and Genghis Khan.

      The whole empire is not. Since the capture of Kazan and Astrakhan, the successor of the Jochi ulus has been (which pretty much helped in contacts with the respective peoples). Do not forget how many Genghisides have become part of the Russian elite.
      For a moment, Ivan the Terrible on the maternal side is a descendant of Mamaia (although not a Genghisid, but still)
      1. Operator
        Operator 11 November 2017 22: 01 New
        +1
        The legal successor can only become a peaceful association of states.

        The Russian kingdom is precisely what destroyed the Kazan, Astrakhan and Siberian Khanates and the Nogai Horde. The Russian Empire destroyed the Crimean Khanate and the Central Asian remnants of the Mongol Empire. If it were not for the October Revolution, Russia would have destroyed Mongolia and Manchuria, making them Yellow Russia.

        Based on a negligible percentage of the Mongol ethnic group in the Tatars and Bashkirs, it can be said with confidence that none of the natural Genghisides was included in the Russian nobility. The loud genealogies of individual Tatar princes were sucked from the finger.
      2. Gopnik
        Gopnik 12 November 2017 17: 30 New
        0
        Quote: Weyland
        successor of ulus Jochi - is


        What was it manifested in, where was it declared ???

        Quote: Weyland
        Do not forget how many Genghisides became part of the Russian elite


        How many? Are there more Gediminids and Rurikovich?
  11. midshipman
    midshipman 11 November 2017 13: 50 New
    +1
    The first time arrived in Mongolia in 1981. It was necessary to create radio navigation chains for aviation and other units of the Army. They came with a representative of the General Staff to the Museum of Local Lore. On the front staircase hangs a huge portrait of Chyngyz Khan. We wanted to take photos with two generals. We were asked not to do this. Mongol officers took care of him. I have the honor.
    1. Dzungar
      Dzungar 11 November 2017 20: 22 New
      +1
      Please, write correctly - CHINGIS Khan, not CHINGIS Khan .... So only inventors and provocateurs from history write ...
      1. Seal
        Seal 14 November 2017 11: 41 New
        +2
        Right - Shagys.
        If western - then Batys.
        That is, Genghis Khan is just a position. More precisely, the position is Khan. And Shagys (or in our pronunciation, Chinggis) is Eastern. Just the "Eastern Khan", of which there have been thousands over the centuries. Here, another puncture is evident among professional historians. Those travelers who then brought to the European courts and court historians all the information they received when they traveled through the Turkic lands, the question “Who made the damage” from their Turkic counterparts could receive the following answers:
        1) This was done by Shagys Khan (Genghis Khan). In the understanding of the storyteller is some kind of famous Khan, whose lands were located east of those who were interviewed.
        2) This was done by Batys-Khan (Batu, Batu). This is any Khan of lands located west of those who were interviewed. Batys - Western.
    2. Operator
      Operator 11 November 2017 22: 15 New
      0
      He was in Mongolia in the early 2000s - he saw the rank and file of the Mongol army, whose tunics are tied with twine, and only GAZ-52 is available from military equipment.

      Descendants of Genghis Khan, cho.
      1. Dzungar
        Dzungar 11 November 2017 22: 53 New
        +1
        This is the result of Genghis Khan's mistake. Instead of remaining within his territory, strengthening it, developing it, he began conquest campaigns, which proved fatal to the people. The best people, the most powerful and smartest, went to a foreign land, and those who died in the battles and those who survived remained in the minority and assimilated over time .... But the worst remained in their homeland who could no longer adequately resist the expansion of China and obeyed him. He, remembering the past, took measures to ensure that the Mongols remained, figuratively speaking * in a thin body * ... Moreover, later the Mongols were between two fires - China and Russia, which also negatively affected the potential. people .... In the period from 1756-58, the Chinese people completely destroyed the Dzungaria inhabited by the Oirat Mongols, with a population close to a million. TOTALLY! And you don’t even know all about it ... You need to understand
        1. Karen
          Karen 11 November 2017 23: 44 New
          0
          The Mongolians massively settled in our region for hosting here ... Because of this, the number of the Turkic population here has increased ...
          And about Dzungaria in the film about Genghis Khan, I remembered another version ... that he wiped it off the face of the earth ... and resettled them in modern Kalmykia ... And Ilyumzhinov says that they are Chinese.
          1. Dzungar
            Dzungar 12 November 2017 00: 07 New
            +1
            I ask you not to post someone’s nonsense here ..... About how * Genghis Khan erased from the land of Dzungaria * and about Ilyumzhinov’s words about the fact that he’s China .... It's not even just nonsense, it's generally enchanting rave...
          2. Operator
            Operator 12 November 2017 00: 33 New
            0
            Quote: Karen
            Mongolians massively settled in our region for managing here

            The neighbors in the Caucasus, Azerbaijanis, the northern Semites assimilated by the Seljuks, who in turn were assimilated by the Mongols, massively settled in Armenia. The mother tongue of Azerbaijanis before assimilation by the Seljuks was Nocchi (Chechen).
            1. Karen
              Karen 12 November 2017 00: 51 New
              0
              Maybe it was.
              But they told us at school that it was from Mongolia that they settled their own ... therefore, probably, with dark skin appeared here, I think, Central Asians. Chechens, if Semites, it seems they should not be dark-skinned.
        2. Operator
          Operator 12 November 2017 00: 27 New
          0
          Quote: Dzungar
          This is the result of Genghis Khan's mistake.

          If the disappearance of the Mongols as a self-sufficient nation is the result of Genghis Khan's mistake, then why hang portraits of the one who brought the nation to such a state?
          1. Dzungar
            Dzungar 12 November 2017 06: 09 New
            +1
            This is just my personal opinion. It should be noted that the Mongols in their current form appeared after the unification of all the Mongol-speaking peoples of Genghis Khan. Only we owe him the appearance of ourselves as a na ... ... Therefore, he is considered among the Mongols by O. O. the Founder of na, and this is VERY MUCH .... About the * disappearance of the Mongols as a self-sufficient na ... you certainly bent ... With the same success, one can say about anyone, it will already be DURY ... Do not allow frivolous statements. There are more than 10 million of us in total. And the settlement territory is more than large, and all that is on it. Leave us alone, China, Russia and the West - and everything will be fine with us. In * the disappearance of the Mongols as in the USA * as you said, but really - in the presence of problems now, the Mongols are guilty not only of the wrong actions of Genghis Khan and his Genghisides, but to a much greater extent the policy of their powerful neighbors, who pulled the weakened people ....
            1. Operator
              Operator 12 November 2017 12: 57 New
              +1
              “Leave us alone,” - late, my friend: the Mongols will be pressed by the neighbors until they are completely destroyed (say thank you to the “father of the Mongols”).
  12. ver_
    ver_ 11 November 2017 15: 16 New
    +1
    Quote: Serg65
    Many medieval documents proving that Genghis Khan was a Tatar

    what I understand that this is one of the chapters of the modern history of Tatarstan and Bashkiria ???

    . Tatars = Khazars = Khozaki = Kozaki -Kazaki-horse squad = cavalry .. the uninvited guest is worse than the Tatar (tax collector-tribute) -the horse warriors were engaged ..
    Nationality Tatar appeared in 1920 by a decree of the CEC on the instructions of Ulyanov = Lenin = Blanca
    In January 1920, a few years after the Bolsheviks came to power, the Politburo supported the formation of the Tatar Republic. A bit later, the All-Russian Central Executive Committee announced the Decree of May 27, 1920, in which it established a new autonomy and determined the structure of the apparatus of state power in the future republic. It was necessary to create a CEC, which was to deal with the election of deputies to the local Council and the Council of People's Commissars. - Read more on FB.ru: http://fb.ru/article/281712/tatarskaya-assr-obraz Also in 1920, Mongolia was formed with the active participation in this * event * Ulyanov = Lenin Blanca ... This is the source from where * legs * grow Fake about the Tatar-Mongol invasion of Russia in the 13th century ...
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 11 November 2017 15: 28 New
      +2
      Quote: ver_
      Nationality Tatar appeared in 1920 by a decree of the CEC on the instructions of Ulyanov = Lenin = Blanca

      They managed to make the Tatars a nation, the Cossacks - half, although they did not guess the archers, otherwise there would be such a nation in Russia - SAGITTARIUS.
      Although ... maybe not in time?
    2. Ural resident
      Ural resident 11 November 2017 17: 25 New
      0
      You put this in discussions about the October Revolution and the Bolsheviks, otherwise they are just saints.
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 12 November 2017 16: 08 New
        0
        Quote: A resident of the Urals
        You put this in discussions about the October Revolution and the Bolsheviks, otherwise they are just saints.

        If I go there, or God forbid a topic about Russophobe Zadorny, I will be banned for life.
  13. ver_
    ver_ 11 November 2017 15: 52 New
    +1
    .. Genghis Khan = Caesar Khan. Caesar - the eldest son of Vsevolod - Yuri-George Dolgoruky. The second son is the youngest
    Yaroslav-John
    The title Khan from Khan Aeneas Rurik Varyag the Trojan for all his descendants ..
    Genghis Khan - Yuri Dolgoruky (Jurgen)
    Khan Batuy - Yaroslav Vsevolodovich = Ivan Kalif = Ivan Kalita = John Prosviter .. He founded the Vatican .. (Rome was founded by 2 brothers)
    Khan Berke = Alexander Nevsky = Alexander the Great = Simeon the Proud ..
    Khan Tokhtamysh = Dmitry Donskoy = Constantine the Great ..- founded Constantinople .. Applied wooden guns in the Battle of Kulikovo ...- development of the church of St. Sergius of Radonezh ..
    Khan Mamai - Velyaminov-uncle Dmitry Donskoy ..
    1. Dzungar
      Dzungar 11 November 2017 20: 23 New
      +3
      How it all starts ....
      1. Romey
        Romey 11 November 2017 20: 58 New
        +3
        Even more. Fomenkovism is not treated.
        1. ver_
          ver_ 12 November 2017 12: 59 New
          +1
          ... judge no higher than the boot ..
      2. Seal
        Seal 14 November 2017 11: 37 New
        +2
        You have to understand that "Genghis Khan" is just a position. More precisely, the position is Khan. And Shagys or Chinggis is East. Just the "Eastern Khan", of which there have been thousands over the centuries. Here, another puncture is evident among professional historians. Those travelers who then brought to the European courts and court historians all the information they received when they traveled through the Turkic lands, the question “Who caused this or that destruction” from their Turkic counterparts could receive the following answers:
        1) This was done by Shagys Khan (Genghis Khan). In the understanding of the storyteller is some kind of famous Khan, whose lands were located east of those who were interviewed.
        2) This was done by Batys-Khan (Batu, Batu). This is any Khan of lands located west of those who were interviewed. Batys - Western.
  14. ver_
    ver_ 11 November 2017 16: 21 New
    +1
    Quote: Setrac
    Quote: ver_
    Nationality Tatar appeared in 1920 by a decree of the CEC on the instructions of Ulyanov = Lenin = Blanca

    They managed to make the Tatars a nation, the Cossacks - half, although they did not guess the archers, otherwise there would be such a nation in Russia - SAGITTARIUS.
    Although ... maybe not in time?

    ... a nation that does not know the past, will not have a future .. This was what * affectionate grandfather * with the nickname Lenin wanted to do ... -
  15. Karen
    Karen 11 November 2017 17: 06 New
    0
    No wonder why Genghis Khan is red-haired - according to the local customs they could steal the wife of the enemy, impregnate and release / return back, as a warning.
    ______
    When in our area the Mongols exterminated the village with the inhabitants, they also killed the dogs ... I can’t understand if there were so many of them, or what? After all, Rome, on the contrary, demanded from us a certain number of dogs in annual tribute.
    1. Weyland
      Weyland 11 November 2017 21: 57 New
      0
      Quote: Karen
      according to the local customs, they could steal the wife of the enemy, impregnate and release / return back, for edification.

      Actually, the whole Genghis Khan clan was fair-haired. And its name "Borzhigin" is translated as "blue-eyed". Aryans climbed far (by the way, among the Altaians, about half are Aryans). And the brown-haired, gray-and green-eyed are also full of Manchu, Nanai, and Udege. In Fadeev’s book “The Last of the Udege,” one Udege says that the White Guards do not distinguish them from the Chinese, although it is easy to distinguish by the color of their eyes: “the eyes of the Chinese are still (like) the earth, the Udege’s is still (like) the grass”
  16. ver_
    ver_ 11 November 2017 17: 26 New
    0
    Quote: Karen
    No wonder why Genghis Khan is red-haired - according to the local customs they could steal the wife of the enemy, impregnate and release / return back, as a warning.
    ______
    When in our area the Mongols exterminated the village with the inhabitants, they also killed the dogs ... I can’t understand if there were so many of them, or what? After all, Rome, on the contrary, demanded from us a certain number of dogs in annual tribute.

    ..that when the Mongols attacked your village? ..
    1. Karen
      Karen 11 November 2017 17: 48 New
      0
      since 1222, I already wrote about their first invasion.
  17. ver_
    ver_ 11 November 2017 18: 06 New
    +1
    Quote: Karen
    since 1222, I already wrote about their first invasion.

    ..but you * eternal Jew * if you remember this ..
  18. Dzungar
    Dzungar 11 November 2017 19: 31 New
    +2
    The Russians write that * there were no Mongols at all ... *. And Genghis Khan, if he was, he was actually Yaroslav the Wise .... The Türks write that Genghis Khan was, but he was Shingys Khan - Kazakh (Tatar, Turk) .... The Chinese also consider Chingis Khan to be their own, how his descendants founded one of the Chinese dynasties ... Some * rabid * Alans believe that Genghis Khan was Alan, Ossetian, I mean ... I would suggest that you all come together and solve this question: Was Genghis Khan and the Mongols and the Mongol invasion ...? And if he was - then who he and they were ...? And then tell us, the Mongols, .... BUT, I know that you are more likely to bite each other than you can do it ...
    1. Karen
      Karen 11 November 2017 20: 23 New
      0
      Andrey, bargaining is inappropriate here :)
      At that time, much was recorded in our country - from this we must start in search of the truth ...
      1. Dzungar
        Dzungar 11 November 2017 23: 18 New
        +1
        I don’t understand - what does Armenia have to do with it ...? excuse me
        1. Karen
          Karen 11 November 2017 23: 26 New
          0
          As a source of documented information about those times.
          1. Dzungar
            Dzungar 12 November 2017 00: 09 New
            +1
            Tell me about these sources ... If they are the same as * Genghis Khan erased Dzungaria * and * Ilyumzhinov - a whale * .... THAT IS NOT NECESSARY .... I do not need bredyatins
            1. Karen
              Karen 12 November 2017 00: 40 New
              0
              Just that?
              About information from 13c. we have a documentary record.
              And I wrote about Dzungaria - from the movie.
              About the words of Ilyumzhinov - I watched on TV. And he said that they (Kalmyks) are Chinese, from China. What is wrong with Kalmyks? They are not from the Dzungaria? Are they not jungars?
              1. Dzungar
                Dzungar 12 November 2017 07: 00 New
                +1
                Ilyumzhinov could not say such a thing. This is either what you’re called * drive *, or some kind of crap from somewhere you are tearing apart. Kalmyks are Oirat Mongols. After 1630, by mutual agreement, one of the Oirat tribes - the Torguds, the ancestors of the Kalmyks, migrated to the Volga, the other - Khoshuts, moved to Lake Kukunor in the territory of modern China. And on the territory of Dzungaria, and this is the territory of modern Western Mongolia and the northern part of Sin.zyan, the indigenous Oirat Mongols remained - the Hoyts, Olets and Choros, who made up the people of Dzungaria. Thus, Dzungaria as a state was finally formed after 1630 and after more than a century of hostility and wars with China and its satellites was completely destroyed by the Sino-Manchu troops in the period from 1756-58 ... Part of the small remains of the Dzungars went to Kalmyks, partly went to their ancestral homeland - the territory of the current Irkutsk region, partly remained in China and Altai ...
                1. Karen
                  Karen 12 November 2017 09: 20 New
                  0
                  Noted.
                  What captivity did Temujin rescue his wife from? This is when he was kept in a cell by the ruler of the enemies.
                  _____
                  According to our documents, the king of Armenian Cilicia went to Karakoram for a military alliance ... against the local orthodox neighbors.
    2. Seal
      Seal 14 November 2017 10: 59 New
      +3
      In 1799, a version of the Tatar invasion was already "established" in Russian historiography, so to speak. However, with the Mongols in 1799, everything was far from so clear.


      As you can see, our ancestors considered the "Mongols" to be exiles from China.
    3. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 14 November 2017 12: 57 New
      0
      Hunnu (Xiongnu), like, were the ancestors of the Mongols?
      From the second century BC, they began to “butt” with the Chinese.
    4. Seal
      Seal 20 November 2017 13: 13 New
      +1
      Therefore, there are so many of them (Genghis Khan) that it is just a designation of “eastern khan” or khan from the east, khan of lands located east of the observer. Eastern - it is the essence of "sunny", as the sun rises in the East.
      But so are batyskhans. For you, Dzungar, any Kazakh khan - Batys Khan (Baty Khan, Batu Khan) - since his lands are located in the West of yours.
      In turn, for the Kazakhs, any of our Russian tsars is also Batys Khan (Baty Khan, Batu Khan), since our lands were located west of the Kazakh nomads. It goes without saying that both the Polish and French kings, both for you and for the Kazakhs, are also Batys-khans (Khans of Batu, Batu-khan).
  19. Dzungar
    Dzungar 11 November 2017 19: 35 New
    +2
    A number of researchers (N. Ts. Munkuev) note that the ethnonym "Mongol" is first found in Chinese
    sources of "Tszyu Tang shu" ("The Old History of the Tang Dynasty", compiled in 945) in the form of "man-u shi-wei" -
    “Shivei Mongols,” and in “Xin Tang Shu” (“New History of the [Tang Dynasty],”
    compiled in 1045-1060)
    in the form of "man-wa bu" -
    The tribe of man-wah. In various Khitan and
    XNUMXth century Chinese sources for these tribes were also used
    names of mang-ku, manguli, manguzi, mangu go.
    For reference....
  20. Dzungar
    Dzungar 11 November 2017 19: 38 New
    +3
    Protomongolian tribes living in Central Asia for millennia BC e., created the so-called culture of tiled graves.

    In 209 BC e. King Mode founded the state of Hunnu (209
    BC e. to the XNUMXnd century AD e.) on the Mongolian plateau. Mongolian scientists attribute
    Hunnu to the protomongols. The Protomongolian state of Xianbi (93–234), North Wei (386–534), the Juan Khanate (330–555), Khitan (907–1125), and the Karakite Khanate (1125–1218) existed until the XNUMXth century.

    For the first time the ethnonym of the Mongols (men-gu, men-gu-li, men-va) is found
    in historical chronicles of the Tang era (7-10 centuries.
    Presumably the initial place of settlement of the Pramongol tribes was the interfluve of the Argun and Onon rivers,
    where in the VIII century they migrated to Three Rivers (the pool
    rivers Onon, Kerulen and Tuul).

    Iakinf Bichurin, a well-known orientalist of the XNUMXth century, having studied the ancient Chinese chronicle, wrote that the ethnonym Mongol appeared at the beginning of the XNUMXth century.
    n e., and the history of the Mongolian peoples (protomongols) begins no later than the XXV century. BC e.
    He also wrote that the ancient Mongols were known to the Chinese over the course of the 20th century under various names: Hunnu, Wuhan, Syanbi, Juan, Dulga, Oyhor, Syeyanto, Khitan.
    In the XII century, the state formation of the Mongols of the Three Rivers was formed - the ulus Hamag Mongol ("All Mongols"). The first ruler of the state was Khabul Khan, who united, according to the “Secret Tale of the Mongols”, 27 tribes
    nirun-Mongols (“actually the Mongols”), the dominant among which were the clans of Chiad-Borjigins and Taijiuts.
    In addition to these Mongols, there were tribes of the Darlekin-Mongols ("Mongols in general") that were not members of the Hamag Mongol association and wandered in the areas adjacent to the Three Rivers.
    You also need to learn new. Did anyone know in those days about some Bashkirs and Tatars .....?
    1. Romey
      Romey 11 November 2017 21: 00 New
      0
      As far as I remember, in Russia the Mongols were called moals or mungals ...
      1. Dzungar
        Dzungar 11 November 2017 21: 40 New
        +1
        The similarity of words is very large, they themselves must see perfectly .... This is not for you from the words Zalesskaya Rus to derive the words Zalesskaya Horde .... Although for someone crazy there is nothing complicated
    2. Mangel olys
      11 November 2017 21: 18 New
      0
      How everything is running! And the "Secret History of the Mongols", written by the Chinese, is something!
      1. Dzungar
        Dzungar 11 November 2017 22: 04 New
        +1
        If this is so, IF IT IS MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE ... A centuries-old enemy will not embellish .... With this in mind, the contents of the CONFIDENTAL STORY is a very truthful work ...
    3. ver_
      ver_ 12 November 2017 08: 49 New
      +1
      ..not a Mongol, but a Mughal ..
  21. Operator
    Operator 11 November 2017 21: 16 New
    +1
    To hell in the "History" section publish Bashkir view?
  22. Weyland
    Weyland 11 November 2017 21: 19 New
    0
    Damn ... claims to Genghis Khan, except for the Chinese and Kazakhs, now Kazan Tatars began to present (despite the fact that the Kazan Tatars are a real "hodgepodge" of a dozen haplotypes, they practically have no "Mongolian" haplogroup C!). And as for the "Tatar name" ... Yes, in the Tatar smith - Timmer. And in Mongolian - temerch. laughing Super proof!
    1. Dzungar
      Dzungar 11 November 2017 22: 09 New
      +1
      We DO NOT have tёmerch ... We have DARKHAN, not only as a blacksmith, but also one of the names of shamans-BOO. There are simply shamans-BOO, and there are shamans-BOO-Darkhan, since it is believed that Darkhan not only owns the art of Fire and Metal, but also knows how to speak with Spirits ... But not every darkhan is a Shaman-BOO
    2. Mangel olys
      12 November 2017 07: 49 New
      0
      You are our expert! You comrade Dung ... Dzhungar clearly answered.
  23. Mangel olys
    12 November 2017 07: 43 New
    +2
    Quote: Dzungar
    If this is so, IF IT IS MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE ... A centuries-old enemy will not embellish .... With this in mind, the contents of the CONFIDENTAL STORY is a very truthful work ...

    What kind of enemy is this? These are yours, almost relatives. Well, if you recall the medieval Chinese organization White Lotus, which fought precisely with the Tatars, replaced all Tatar and destroyed all records of the Tatar, then everything is obvious.

    Here is a brief history of the creation of Mongolia:
    In 1911, the Xinhai Revolution took place in China, destroying the Qing Empire.
    In 1911, a national revolution took place in Mongolia. At the head of the proclaimed 1 of December 1911 of the year of the Mongolian state was Bogdo-khan (Bogdo-gegan VIII). Under the Kyakhta Treaty of 1915, Mongolia was recognized as autonomy within the Republic of China. In 1919, the country was occupied by the Chinese, and autonomy was liquidated by General Xu Shucheng. In 1921, the division of the Russian general R.F. von Ungern-Sternberg, together with the Mongols, drove the Chinese out of the capital of Mongolia - Urga. In the summer of 1921, the troops of the RSFSR, the Far Eastern Republic and the Red Mongols inflicted a number of defeats on Ungern. In Urga, a People’s Government was created, the power of Bogd-Gegan was limited. After his death in 1924, Mongolia was declared a People's Republic.

    Until the end of World War II, the only state that recognized the independence of Mongolia was the USSR. The threat of reunification of Inner and Outer Mongolia forced China to accept a referendum on recognition of the status quo and independence of the Mongolian People’s Republic. The referendum took place on October 20 of 1945 of the year, and (according to official figures) 99,99% of voters on the lists voted for independence. After the creation of the PRC, both countries mutually recognized one another on October 6 of 1949 of the year. After the recognition of independence by China, other states recognized Mongolia. China several times raised the question of the "return" of Outer Mongolia, but received a categorical refusal from the USSR.

    As you can see, Mongolia is a former part of the Chinese empire. Artificially created country. Can anyone give examples, were there any references to this territory as Mongolia before the beginning of the 19th century?
    1. ver_
      ver_ 12 November 2017 12: 54 New
      +1
      ..this is an analogue of Tataria ..
  24. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 12 November 2017 15: 37 New
    +1
    A good or evil Genghis empire would be subjective, for some how.
    But the fact that it was huge in size - no doubt. And lasted
    quite a long time, which indicates a certain economic system
    and military-political organization.
  25. Karen
    Karen 12 November 2017 18: 30 New
    0
    Moderators, but it was impossible to apply the ban on Andrei (Dzhungar) with a delay?
    The discussion went as one-sided :)
  26. ver_
    ver_ 13 November 2017 07: 06 New
    0
    Quote: Setrac
    Quote: Gopnik
    Russia is not the heir and successor of the Mongol Empire and Genghis Khan.

    A moot point! Do you know that the inhabitants of Kievan Rus called the Ryazan-Suzdal Rus - Zalesskaya Horde? Not some mythical Mongols, not Polovtsy, Pechenegs, Bulgars and others, namely the Russians called the Horde!

    ..orda - military order - army ..
    1. Seal
      Seal 14 November 2017 09: 29 New
      +2
      Do you know that the inhabitants of Kievan Rus called the Ryazan-Suzdal Rus - Zalesskaya Horde? Not some mythical Mongols, not Polovtsy, Pechenegs, Bulgars and others, namely the Russians called the Horde!

      Yes, in general, this is far from a fact.
      This is now all sorts of Bandera so cast out.
  27. Seal
    Seal 14 November 2017 09: 27 New
    +2
    About "Genghis Khan". The Turks, well, take, for example, the Kazakhs, as a basis for orientation in space, the directions for sunrise and sunset are taken. In the Kazakh language, sunrise is shygys, sunset is batys. Hence the East-Shygys, and the West-Batys. The main holy direction of the Turks (Kazakhs) was and remains the "East". If you face east, then on the right (in the Kazakh language “right side” - “he”) will be Ontustik-South, and on the left (in the Kazakh language - “sol”), respectively, Soltustik-North. In this regard, everything that is located to the west of the steppe for the Kazakhs had the prefix "batu", and to the east - "shygys." From here the ruler of any Turk (Kazakhs) western from the habitat was called Batu-Khan (Batu). And the one who ruled east - well, for example, China - was Shygys Khan (in our pronunciation, Genghis Khan). That is, all of these Batu, Batu, Batys and Shagysy (Genghis) could be (and were, after all in the West is full of all kinds of “Karls”) the names of both specific people and common names for all khans-rulers of these areas and territories. By the way, Genghis Khan is simply any “Solar Khan” or “Eastern Khan” and in the language of a number of Volga non-Turkic peoples. The Volga peoples most likely adopted this term, well, among the Tatars, for example.
    That is, one must understand that "Genghis Khan" is a position. More precisely, the position is Khan. And Shagys or Chinggis is East. Just the "Eastern Khan", of which there have been thousands over the centuries. Here, another puncture is evident among professional historians. Those travelers who then brought to the European courts and court historians all the information they received when they traveled through the Turkic lands, the question “Who made the damage” from their Turkic counterparts could receive the following answers:
    1) This was done by Shagys Khan (Genghis Khan). In the understanding of the storyteller is some kind of famous Khan, whose lands were located east of those who were interviewed.
    2) This was done by Batys-Khan (Batu, Batu). This is any Khan of lands located west of those who were interviewed. Batys - Western.
    Maybe even names were called, such as Genghis Khan Roll of Wallpaper or Genghis Khan Kirdyk Nadoev. But since the last (proper names) components were inconstant - only the first invariably constant part was remembered - CHINGIS KHAN. Since the East was and remains the main holy direction among the Turks (Kazakhs), it goes without saying that now every second in Asia is a descendant of one or another Genghis Khan (Genghisid). If the Turks would have been in the main holy direction not the East, but the West - then every second Kazakh or other Turk would now be someone like "Batyzid." Well, apparently, since the Turks were attacked by the Turks from the south (deserts and mountains) and from the north (Siberian swamps, the Arctic Ocean), not less than that, the Turkic-speaking storytellers put all the main complaints against Genghis Khan and Batu- Khan. " But European historians, having gathered such a lot of complaints against Genghis Khan and Batu Khan and stupidly not realizing that they (well, those travelers who later brought all this information to European courts and court historians), the locals were simply talking about their local showdowns with some eastern or western neighbors for 300-400 years, and believing that “Genghis Khan” and “Batu Khan” are the names of specific people decided that only great people could commit such large-scale acts. And being honestly mistaken, historians began to sculpt the myth of the “Great Genghis Khan” and his grandson “Batu Khan” (which historians sent to the very west).
    1. Dzungar
      Dzungar 24 November 2017 12: 19 New
      0
      You were Russian, Tatar, or Bulgarian you were. Now also a Kazakh .... But it was impossible to say everything from the profile of some Kazakh ...? Such a puncture, such a puncture .... After all, you are so close to failure .... The Kazakhs themselves are aware of these very considerations of yours ....? You are our multi-worker ... An organization with good funding, you probably have a lot of people working on the topic - all the peoples who are close to the topic have pulled things up, they have come up with something for everyone, and now they will be happy about the new one, and will be worn with it like a rag on a stick ... How Russians rush now with the Slavic-Aryan Vedas written by a Jew, Hinevich, and representing a wild compilation of Russian fairy tales, Scandinavian sagas, and various nonsense of different passers-by ...
  28. Seal
    Seal 14 November 2017 09: 32 New
    +2
    Quote: midshipman
    On the front staircase hangs a huge portrait of Chyngyz Khan.

    Intravital ?? laughing laughing laughing
  29. Seal
    Seal 14 November 2017 10: 55 New
    +2
    Quote: voyaka uh
    But what she was

    just in doubt.
  30. Seal
    Seal 14 November 2017 11: 34 New
    +2
    Quote: romey
    As far as I remember, in Russia the Mongols were called moals or mungals ...


    Not one of the birch bark letters ever contains the words: "Mongol", "moal"; Mungal "Tatar"; Mongol-Tatar "," Tatar-Mongol "," Baskak "," Khan, "Great Khan", "Horde", "yoke", "Batu" and so on. Our ancestors did not know about any “yoke”.

    When Moscow declared itself the Third Rome, the First Rome was very offended by us. And he began to invent all kinds of fables about us. For example, the "Tatar yoke" is an invention of Poles Catholics, who also had the goal of proving that Poland was the last outpost of civilization in Eastern Europe. Then, when during the Napoleonic forces, Europeans saw real Tatars in Europe and Paris, they were very surprised. How so ? Tatars are exactly the same Europeans as they are !!! And European historians quickly began to transform the "Tatar yoke" first into the Tatar-Mongolian, then into the "Mongol-Tatar". And now even often we ourselves are limited to one “Mongolian”. And one of the peoples most remote from Europe, the people of the Khalkha, was appointed to the post of "Mongols".
    Likewise, when the Swedes had to designate the rights to “Kemsku parish”, the Swede Peter Petreus created the theory that the Vikings, who are Swedes, were called to rule in Russia once. And so the word "Mongol" in Turkic means the Eternal country "Mangi el". The Millennium Reich, for example, was also the “Deutschland Mangi el” (Germanic Mongols). Well, our medieval liberals, who even then looked to the West with admiration, unanimously picked up these theories, that yes, here we are, blue-legged, 300 years under the yoke. And before that, they could not figure it out among themselves - the Varangians had to call overseas to rule us. Ugh ..
  31. Seal
    Seal 14 November 2017 11: 36 New
    +2
    Quote: Karen
    According to our documents, the king of Armenian Cilicia went to Karakorum

    And, what, in documents the route of movement of your "king" is precisely indicated, as well as the exact or at least approximate location of the "Karakorum"?
    1. Karen
      Karen 14 November 2017 21: 27 New
      0
      Sergey Petrovich, why is it in quotation marks designated our Cilician king? Recognition of the right to reign was confirmed by all our neighbors. The crown for our Cilician kings was sent not only from Byzantium.
      There will definitely be documented evidence of relations with the Karakorum ... if not in the Matenadaran, then in the Cilician Church Archive. And in the Vatican - no doubt !!! Their intelligence reports of those times will uniquely clarify the situation in the region and relations with the Karakorum ...
      1. Seal
        Seal 15 November 2017 18: 38 New
        +2
        If only because the term TZAR it is hardly called.
        Well, then everything, as usual:
        Recognition of the right to reign was confirmed by all our neighbors.
        What exactly confirmed? Again verbally? Or was there something in writing but was lost?
        The crown for our Cilician kings was sent not only from Byzantium.

        Who specifically sent the crown when, who was sent to transmit the crown ???
        There is at least one person who wrote in his memoirs: “I was given the great honor of delivering the crown to the Tsar of Cilicia. I went on such a day ..”?
        Or there may be a cover letter: “My brother, the son of the Sun and the husband of the Moon, accept as a sign of respect this modest crown, which was specially made for you by my jeweler Konstantin Popandopulo. Your brother Bazileus is such and such.”

        There will definitely be documented evidence of relations with the Karakorum ... if not in the Matenadaran, then in the Cilician Church Archive. And in the Vatican - no doubt !!!

        Excuse me, is that in all that you listed - did you yourself find at least one genuine "intelligence"?
        1. Karen
          Karen 15 November 2017 20: 21 New
          0
          According to intelligence reports. - I meant only the Vatican ... They lit up this a lot in our region ... let's call it their analytical notes, which does not change anything. They showed our archives important to our historians ... Personally, I could calmly study the archives of the Vatican when my friend there was an entrance to the holy of holies ... he seems to be going to return there in a couple of years, then I’ll ask again.
          ____
          Apparently, I have to go to my historian friends to answer your questions about Cilicia, it’s not difficult for me ...
          1. Seal
            Seal 16 November 2017 14: 14 New
            +2
            Quote: Karen
            Apparently, I have to go to my historian friends to answer your questions about Cilicia, it’s not difficult for me ...

            I have always been admired by the faith of individuals in the "historians." Like: "historians know" or "you need to ask historians." In fact, such a belief had some semblance of meaning even 30-40 years ago. But with the development of the INTERNET, especially after the decision of UNESCO, obliging world museums and other storages to digitize and freely distribute the most ancient copies of archival documents, this belief has become similar to the belief of preschool children that "Mom (or dad) knows everything "
            In fact, that history, that geography is one and the same thing. But for some reason it doesn’t occur to anyone to turn to geographers for any questions. Type:

            “Karen, where is this or that island located?”
            “I don’t know, but I have a familiar geographer, I have to go and ask him.”

            In fact, anyone can visit at least the NASA website, at least with the help of Google or with the help of something else to independently explore at least the entire planet. For everyone knows that geeks have nothing in the zagashniks to not be published on maps.
            But as regards history, the mass of people believes that historians have some zagashniks in which they hide something important from all "not initiated into historians" and use it exclusively themselves drinks
            1. Karen
              Karen 16 November 2017 20: 34 New
              0
              Sergei Petrovich, nothing surprising :) I, when he told a hereditary physicist about an article from the Investigative Practice sometime in the 56th year, that neutron irradiation of the prisoner's hair was carried out to determine Napoleon’s poisoning, he “attacked” with a rebuke the instruction that I had to turn to physicists :)
              And so almost always :)
              In this article, there were two more stories: about a possible chain mail under Dantes clothes and about the angle of the bullet’s entrance to Lermontov, which was explained by a “parallel” shot of a certain dragoon.
              So, historians have to turn to historians :)
  32. Operator
    Operator 14 November 2017 20: 44 New
    0
    Mangel olys,
    Tatar is one of the dialects of the Mongolian language.

    Language assimilation, however (such as the use of English by African Americans).
  33. Mangel olys
    15 November 2017 14: 38 New
    0
    Mangel olys,
    So, after conducting a short blitz interview, we can confidently state the fact that this comrade does not understand molecular genealogy, history, as science does not recognize. And very fond of science fiction. Have a nice swim, homo sapiens!
    1. Operator
      Operator 15 November 2017 15: 21 New
      0
      You care about the Tatars and the Mongols - you are the Bashkirs, it is quite possible that the carrier of the dominant Celtic haplogroup R1b, i.e. a direct descendant of the Bulgars.
  34. The comment was deleted.
  35. Seal
    Seal 20 November 2017 11: 21 New
    +1
    Quote: Curious
    I’m interested in something else - you are a Mongolophobe that is so stubbornly fighting with Genghis Khan?

    Mdaaaaaaaa !!! This is the application !!!! What does the modern Mongols have to do with it? Once (about 200 years ago) white people began to inspire these children of nature (hulk) and, as a result, they suggested that they supposedly had a "great ancestor" who conquered half the world. They, the hulk, agreed that they were the Mongols and that they had a great ancestor. Well, who will refuse to have a great ancestor? They would offer the post of “those same Mongols,” for example, the Yakuts — the Yakuts would also agree.
    And now what are their claims (to the hulk-Mongols) claims? Claims that they believed white people and now skim the cream of the global brand Genghis Khan?
    I fight to ensure that there are as few unproven and antilogical myths in history as possible. And far from more than one Genghis Khan. Just this mythological character is the most convex. There, the author of the article and you even declared him "a man of the millennium." Only the author of the article related the announcement to the year 2000, and you - to the year 2002.
    And if someone perceives this as "Mongolophobia" - these are his personal problems of his brain.
    1. Dzungar
      Dzungar 20 November 2017 12: 37 New
      +1
      I am inclined to think that one of these * white people * imagines himself exceptional, and decided that in his story there CANNOT be such a country. like a Mongol yoke. And if so, then all sorts of reasons and hints must be destroyed, including the history of the Mongol itself. And he doesn’t give a shit that all this is described in detail both in the Mongols and in China, Europe, the Arabs and the Persians. All of them have it described, only they * have great and exceptional Russians * this is a lie, and in general this could not be ...
      1. Seal
        Seal 24 November 2017 10: 55 New
        +1
        You can incline to anything. Even to what responsibility of the Criminal Code was previously provided for. But in order to be so perverted to see in the expression: “These people of nature (the hulk) once (200 years ago), white people began to inspire, and in the end they suggested that they supposedly had a“ great ancestor ”who conquered half the world. They, the hulk, agreed that they were the Mongols and they had a great ancestor. Well, who would refuse to have a great ancestor? They would offer the post of those very Mongols, for example, the Yakuts - the Yakuts would also agree "some kind of" superiority " - it needs to be very rich in imagination. Although it is precisely this wealth that you are successfully proving here.
        In fact, the obvious cannot be denied. Namely, it cannot be denied that the West succeeded in imposing its version of history on the whole world. And the whole history of the West is built on the Old Testament, in which the representatives of one nationality, so beloved by you, as I understand from your answer about the Young Turks, play the main role.
        The hulk is a normal and peaceful people. Never in my life did he seek to win anyone. For centuries, peacefully grazed your cattle, and if you contacted someone, it was only with the surrounding tribes and China. And he did not bother at all about his place in World History.
        The West, out of this peaceful people, the hulk made the bloody monster of the "Mongols", supposedly conquering half the world, destroying hundreds of cities, destroying hundreds of thousands of people and so on. Films appear throughout which the blood of the victims of the Mongol invasion is pouring from the screen.
        In response, other films appear in which the blood of the "conquerors" themselves is pouring just as profusely.
        You also do your bit in support of this bloody myth. And at the same time, oddly enough, consider yourself a "fighter for the friendship of peoples." Well ... this intricate mental path of yours can only be attributed to what you have reported about yourself. Namely, about the concussion you received.
        Try to recover and .... live your own mind, and not continue to live along with the West.
        1. Dzungar
          Dzungar 24 November 2017 16: 35 New
          0
          About how the Khalkha-Mongols were appointed Mongols, I heard in different places just the day before yesterday. Nobody ever stuttered about this anywhere .... Someone rivets manuals on an industrial scale in one place and spreads it all at once on all channels at once .... You just have to tally monkeys on them at every corner without really understanding the meaning written with tenacity worthy of another application. If everyone together would start digging a pit under the sea, then probably in the near future you would have succeeded. How did your brothers Slavs in extreme times ....
        2. Dzungar
          Dzungar 24 November 2017 16: 49 New
          0
          What is especially funny, you can yell at a great distance from these Khalkha-Mongols. But to come to them and tell them all this with your entire shobola, even in full force there will not be enough spirit .... Since in the first place you will be scared. Secondly, it may not even reach your discovery of their * real * history, but most likely it will come to a tragic realization of your own wrongness ..... It is easy to yell in the unattainable distance from those to whom your cries are actually addressed. And from the side to look at this your theatrical action is ridiculous to contempt for you. It's like a little dog barking (hold me seven) from behind the fence, being confident in its inaccessibility .....
    2. Dzungar
      Dzungar 20 November 2017 12: 49 New
      +1
      In the Russian villages, with absolute illiteracy even a century ago, no one had any idea about Rurik, Yaroslav the Wise, Monomakh, etc. ... Yes, and now many of the Russians do not know about them and do not want to, and in general they do not care for everything ... They don’t even know who Lenin and Stalin are, given the seemingly universal literacy and recent events. What can I say if the Mongolian arats were 300 years old, and 100 years ago, someone might not have known what happened 500 or 700 years ago ... Well, the entire Genealogy of Genghis Khan and his Chingizid children is available, as well as a description of all their affairs. Go to Ulaanbaatar and they will tell you everything in detail there. And the fact that you do not know about it, which means you declare that this was not, is not a problem for the Mongols. This is your personal problem ...
  36. Seal
    Seal 20 November 2017 11: 46 New
    +1
    Quote: Karen
    then he “attacked” with a rebuke-instruction that I had to turn to physicists :)

    You see. He did not ask for reproaches that he had to turn to historians. For he understood the worthlessness of such treatment.
    About Dantes and Martynov.
    Well, would you turn to historians, so what?
    If the historian is a fan of the conspiracy - he would undertake to prove that Dantes was in chain mail.
    And if the historian would be a fan of Dantes - it is the other way around that Pushkin was in chain mail.

    You have to think with your own head. What, was chain mail sold in every corner in St. Petersburg in 1830? No, of course, it had to be ordered. And the rumor that one of the famous people orders chain mail would immediately spread throughout the city. In addition, the seconds would certainly notice that one of the duelists was walking very hard (after all, by the time of the duel, he had to wear chain mail in the morning so that no one could see how he was putting on her, and chain mail was heavy clothing) and leaves traces in the snow deeper than it should.
    And, the most interesting thing is that chain mail in general does not really protect against arrows and bullets. A solid metal bib (breastplate) is much more effective.

    Historians about Martynov and Lermontov will not help either. For only their personal thoughts will be expressed. And speculation.
    1. Karen
      Karen 20 November 2017 14: 35 New
      0
      I see ... I only see that I had to write completely about the debate of the parties :)
      The physicist said that they would show the pros and cons of a neutral bombardment of hair. :)
      And according to History, we got dissent: he was fixated on the fact that, according to the rules of the duels of those times, the seconds had to check the presence / absence of metal objects under the clothes of the duelists. I assumed that during duels between the “noble” this rule could be rejected with disgust ... And who, apart from historians, will answer me on such a statement of the question? Not literary scholars!
      By the way, after his shot, Pushkin exclaimed: “I hit !!!”, but Dantes did not present his button to the court. And by “chain mail” to think with your own head - the article says which of Dantes’s relatives disappeared at night, no one knows where.
      And according to Lermontov, Martynov claimed to the end of his life that he was not the one who killed him.
  37. Seal
    Seal 20 November 2017 13: 16 New
    +2
    Quote: Dzungar
    Iakinf Bichurin, a well-known orientalist of the XNUMXth century, having studied the ancient Chinese chronicle, wrote that the ethnonym Mongol appeared at the beginning of the XNUMXth century.

    I. Bichurin never wrote that he was holding in his hands the "ancient Chinese chronicle of the XNUMXth century." Yes, this is impossible. Entropy has not yet been canceled.
    I. Bichurin has the right to his personal opinion.
  38. khalkaman
    khalkaman 20 November 2017 14: 41 New
    +1
    Clarification - The Golden Horde was founded by the grandson of Genghis Khan - Batu. I am surprised that the article was written by a scientific peasant - he calls himself an assistant professor. Pseudoscience however.
  39. Seal
    Seal 20 November 2017 14: 50 New
    +2
    Quote: ando_bor
    Looking where, from Pliev’s memoirs - beautiful, powerful trophy horses - everyone had a rest even in the area of ​​concentration, before the start of the Kwantung operations, despite the canopies built for them, the Russians were ill, but acclimated, the Mongols felt fine, and there was no need to feed them , - lived on the pasture, - had to learn to eat from a sack.

    Could you give an exact quote from I.Pliev’s memoirs?

    Well, like this for example: From Pliev’s memoirs:
    Among other worries, the condition of the equestrian staff was of particular concern to me. Even during my first stay in Mongolia, I noticed that the cavalry units usually had two sets [20] of horses. When one set was under constant saddle alert, the second was kept in herds, on pasture. And so all year round, in summer and winter.
    In wartime, a second set of horses moved at the distance of one passage from the troops. After several days of intense fighting, tired horses were replaced simultaneously throughout the regiment or division. This provided the Mongol cavalry with high tactical mobility. And the horses themselves had excellent marching qualities. The low Mongolian horse has a strong build and short strong legs with small strong hooves. He is able to make daily hundred-kilometer transitions for several days in a row.
    Probably all taken together: the possibility of frequent change of horses, their high marching qualities, unpretentiousness - and this led to simplified care for the horse-drawn stock in the Mongolian army. Horses were kept in herds. There were no stables. Hoof trimming was rare, and, which was especially worrying, horses were not forged at all. But the operation provided for such a high rate of attack that, with all the endurance, the forged Mongolian horses could "sit" on their front legs.
    After consulting, we decided to organize forging. They gave the order, and the work began to boil.
    At the same time, it was necessary to train the Mongolian horses in a hitching post and in a new forage - hay and oats. After all, we had to act in the desert, and there is no pasture there.
    At first, the horses refused oats, but then they figured out what's what, and ate it for a sweet soul.
    ..........
    My main concern was whether the 59th Soviet and 8th Mongolian divisions would be able to cover several tens of kilometers of the most difficult mountain path in a night and suddenly appear before Jaehe at dawn. [127]
    The continuous advance of the last day extremely exhausted the soldiers. It exhausted the horses. Even unpretentious and so hardy Mongolian horses began to take. Nevertheless, the commanders had to be ordered to further develop the offensive.
  40. Seal
    Seal 21 November 2017 15: 01 New
    +2
    Quote: Dzungar
    no one had any idea about Rurik

    Well, let's say I still have no idea who Rurik is. No, I'm not talking about that literary character. But I have no idea if this character has a real prototype. Most likely it doesn’t. Or has many prototypes. Like that same Genghis Khan.
    By the way, Catherine II was sure that Moscow was founded by Daniel Nevsky’s son at the end of the XNUMXth century, and not by Yuri Dolgoruky, that the Vikings came from the Don and came to Scandinavia from Russia, etc.

    Well, the entire Genealogy of Genghis Khan and his children of Genghisides is available, as well as a description of all their affairs. Go to Ulaanbaatar and they will tell you everything in detail there. And the fact that you don’t know about it,

    Oh oh Yes, I still know how they will tell and show ..... show where "Genghis Khan was standing here", "Genghis Khan was sitting on this carpet", "This petrified piece .... well, here, at this very place, Genghis Khan emptied his stomach after a hearty dinner. " laughing
    It goes without saying that it would be a sin for modern Mongols not to make money on such a well-promoted brand. Since he himself ... The West gave !!!
    But seriously, for starters the question will arise - where did the firewood come from? After all, all the inscriptions are no more than 100 years old. The “oldest” ones are most likely made by order of Baron Ungern, who wanted to become the founder of the new great Yellow Empire. There are no “archives” from the “Genghis Khan Empire”. Although we all, and especially you “know” (and you so “know”), that the “Great Mongol Khans” clothed all their laws in the form of so-called Khan labels, the so-called payzi. And these khan labels, judging by the "annals", were many. Here, they tell us, genuine monuments to the great Mongol - Tatar conquerors. But let's see what we know about them today. It is believed that during the Mongol - Tatar yoke in Russia many documents written in Russian remained - these are the treaties of the princes and private correspondence in birch bark letters, etc. It must be assumed that the Mongol texts are no less, because they were from the central government and had to be protected especially carefully. And what do we have in reality?
    We have two or three khan labels found in the nineteenth century. And not in state archives, but in private historical collections.
    For example, the well-known payza khan Tokhtamysh was discovered only in 1834, among the securities that were once in the archives of Krakow, but at that time were, for some reason, in the hands of the Polish historian Narushevich. He took the documents home from the state archive, so to speak for homework, and did not return it. It happens just like a schoolboy who forgot to return a book to the library at the time.
    Regarding this payzi, Prince Obolensky wrote:
    "This document allows you to positively answer the question of what alphabet the ancient Khan payzi were written for the Grand Dukes of Russia ... Of the payzz known to us, this is the second such."
    It is also known that the Tokhtamysh label is "written down by diverse Mongolian letters in the form of infinitely motley letters, making them completely dissimilar to the already published Timur-Kutluya label."
    There were only two supposedly Mongol khan labels.
    Others, later from the Crimean khans, were already in Polish, Tatar, Italian and Arabic.
    In this case, both decrees of the same time. Because Tokhtamysh and Timur are Kutluk contemporaries. But they wrote their khan's initials, it turns out, in a completely different language and writing. This is strange. It cannot be that within ten years, the writing in the hypothetical Mongolian language has completely and completely changed? With all this, it is known that writing in specific languages ​​changes slowly over the centuries.
    And that is characteristic, both Mongolian khan labels were found in the West. And where are similar payzi from the Russian archives? This question came to mind after the discovery of the label of Khan Tokhtamysh to Prince Obolensky.
    He wrote: “The discovery of the Tokhtamyshev label prompted me to use various efforts in searching for the original Khan times of the Golden Horde of labels in order to resolve the painful question of many of our historians and Orientalists about whether the originals of such documents are in the Central Archive of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Moscow. Unfortunately, the effect of all the searches was the complete conviction that all other original labels - payzi from the time of the Mongol - Tatar yoke, perhaps more interesting ones died in the fire. "
    If shorter and more prosaic, we get the following. In the official Russian archives for some reason there are no traces of labels in the Mongolian language. There are two labels of Tokhtamysh and Timur, which were found - but not by us, but in the West and for some reason under suspicious circumstances, in private and not in state archives, and scribbled in different letters. This suggests that we are faced with a fake. Therefore, the letters are different. Counterfeiters did not agree with each other.
    Here is what professor at Kazan University Kovalevsky writes about this:
    “Among the artifacts of the ancient Mongolian culture since the time of the Genghis Khanov can be recognized a few words on stone, recently interpreted by Schmitt, letters from the Persian kings Argun and Uldzeit to the French king, also interpreted by Schmitt in a pamphlet published by him in St. Petersburg in 1824 ... Europe still knows one type of manuscript is Mongol, written in Mongolian letters in the Tatar language, for example, the Persian translation of the novel Bakhtiyar - Name. The letter itself for a long time remained uncertain in relation to any people. Finally, a number of Orientalist orientalists decided that the letter was East Turkic or Uyghur. That is, it belongs to the Turkestan Uyghurs, who, although they are considered Turks, but in ancient times it was a Tatar tribe. ”
    It turns out that the Great Mongol Empire retained only a few modest epithets. One inscription on the rock, several letters and a novel. Honestly a bit. Moreover, the novel is actually written in Tatar, not Mongolian! Only letters, according to historians, are Mongolian orientalists.
    Yes, and all these rare texts, it turns out, are translated by the same person - a certain type of Schmitt, or maybe Smith, which is basically the same.
    For some reason, the Turks are the descendants of the Mongol conquerors! And only historians know that the Turks were undoubtedly the Mongols. Turks don’t think so.
    By the way, one should not forget that territorially present Mongolia was part of China. But what happens in China since 1722, after the Manchu rulers came to power:
    “The Manchu rulers, imitating the Chinese dynasties, formed a special committee to compile the history of the preceding Ming dynasty. The political goal of such a story was to show the historical inevitability of the fall of the previous dynasty and its replacement with a new one. The opposition could not reconcile with such an interpretation of the history of the fallen dynasty ... Therefore, “private” stories of the Minsk dynasty appeared. ” The authorities, as usual, resorted to repression. We read further: “Books disagreeable to the government were seized, and those guilty of their concealment were subjected to severe penalties. So, between 1774 and 1782. seizures were carried out 34 times. Since 1722, collection of all printed books ever published in China has been undertaken. The collection lasted 20 years. In this way, a huge library for those times was formed of 172626 volumes (10 titles). 223 people were involved in the analysis and processing of the material. A few years later, 360 names were released in the new edition, and the remaining 3457 names were described in a detailed annotated catalog. In fact, it was a grandiose operation to seize books ... and no less grandiose operation to falsify texts. In unreleased new editions, all undesirable places were seized; even the names of the books changed
    (This is not what I came up with. It was written in World History in 10 volumes, USSR Academy of Sciences. Isn't that an eloquent quote?)
    So where then come from what you invite me to come to see?
    1. Dzungar
      Dzungar 21 November 2017 16: 43 New
      0
      Your verbosity is like the vanity of a liar and his fear that they will not believe him. And rightly so ... But it’s just a senseless wrangle from somewhere. A, a set of words .... What was written in the 14th century, from Tokhtamysh, from Timur — had nothing to do with the Mongols. These were already separate states and with an overwhelming predominance of Turks and Muslims. What happened there - I’m not really interested anymore .... Your pearls about where Chinggis Khan could have poked around are just petty dirty tricks and buffoonery of a petty lover to get into the Internet ... Next - * Turks are descendants of the Mongols. Turks don’t think so ... Or they think ... * Have you ever read your writings ...? A bunch of words of letters dumped into one shapeless bunch .... In short, if Genghis Khan was a shocker of the universe, then you are an air shocker ... Be proud ....
      1. Seal
        Seal 23 November 2017 13: 22 New
        +2
        Is it difficult to part from childhood with a familiar fairy tale?
  41. Dzungar
    Dzungar 21 November 2017 16: 49 New
    0
    One thing is not clear - what relation can revision of books in China and their correspondence to the history of the Mongols ...? Apparently, some pees
    ..... bols it is a priori considered a rewriting of the history of the Mongols, or even spelling anew .... The brains of these fussy boys are amazingly arranged
    1. Seal
      Seal 23 November 2017 12: 07 New
      +2
      They wrote to you in Russian in black and white that the territory that is now called Mongolia was part of China.
      It is all early if you wrote that you do not understand how: "And what did the decrees of the Russian emperors in the 19th century have to Ukrainian Kiev?"
      Do you even understand what you write? Apparently, the children's teasers from which you still came out, so captivated you that you do not understand.
      1. Dzungar
        Dzungar 23 November 2017 18: 56 New
        0
        The people would tell you - your stupid predictions of a brake that doesn’t enter your bazaar itself ... And you would have done it correctly, otherwise you won’t be able to explain something to the idiots .... Mongolia has NEVER entered into China. It was controlled by China, but formally remained independent .... ALWAYS. Unlike your Ukrainian Kiev ....
  42. Dzungar
    Dzungar 21 November 2017 16: 59 New
    0
    And further. Fear of seeing everything with your own eyes and staying with your broken arguments and thoughts is a long-standing fear of humanity. He is present in the majority here, who loudly argue about the absence of any Mongol empire 800 or less years ago ... I will not expel this fear. May he stay with you
    1. Seal
      Seal 23 November 2017 12: 40 New
      +2
      Quote: Dzungar
      And further. Fear of seeing everything with your own eyes and staying with your broken arguments and thoughts is a long-standing fear of humanity. He is present in the majority here, who loudly argue about the absence of any Mongol empire 800 or less years ago ... I will not expel this fear. May he stay with you

      Great. Now your phobia is clear. You are scared. This is your fear. But fearing to admit it, you attribute your fear to others.
      Are you afraid that you are knocking out the soil that you are accustomed to consider unshakable from childhood. Moreover, you are very offended by the fact that you have taken away your favorite fairy tale from your childhood, with which you are already so close that you cannot imagine your existence without it. Hence your hysteria and attempts to drag me into the transition to swearing.
      Fear is peculiar to weak people.
      Many weak people find protection from fear in religion. Religion gives them protection in the form of faith. Beliefs that there is a certain super-being "god". Beliefs that this super-being sees everything, that God will punish whoever needs to be, who needs to be punished. Even if "in the next world, but he will punish."
      Many people go to various religions, because they simply do not have the mental ability to perceive such a concept that: "The Universe is infinite and limitless." This infinity and infinity makes them fear.
      But, I repeat, they find solace in religion and in the fact that they "know for sure"how it was created (God created, and the name of God is chosen by everyone according to his taste) and life on earth developed." So to speak, “a precisely known past” gives them (you) the opportunity to somehow cope with their animal fear of the unknown future, of the infinity and infinity of the Universe.
      And any attempts to deprive them (you) of historical illusions they (you) perceive extremely painfully. For your fear speaks in you.
      But I, unlike you, calmly relate to the fact that we never (well, before the invention of the "Time Machine") will never know what actually happened before the 16th century AD. Moreover, we see the 16th century itself only as vague fragments.
      The theory does not scare me that history can be multivariate. Since really, having nothing documented about the time before the 16th century and having little about the 16th century itself, you can have millions of speculative options for how human society developed. I am quite ready to admit that one of the millionth versions may be “the Mongol conquest of the half-world under the leadership of Genghis Khan.” Why not ? After all, in the end, there is a possibility that a monkey planted behind a typewriter accidentally prints the novel “War and Peace” by L.N. Tolstoy or the Bible. Let it be one multi-trillionth fraction of a unit - but there is still a probability.
      So the fear is not really mine. Fear is in you. Having an unpredictable future, you are terribly afraid to admit that the past (until a certain period when everything began to be more or less documented and these documents have reached our time) is no less unknown than the future.
      That is why you are fighting to the death for your children's tales. For your fear does not allow you to get rid of these illusions.
      1. Dzungar
        Dzungar 23 November 2017 18: 23 New
        0
        Nakone. then you have the opportunity to speak out about your real fears, describe them in detail, and lighten your soul ... BUT TO PREPARE THEM FOR ANOTHER ... Brilliant! Sumptuously! You are just smart! And to us pagans and Buddhists, who rely primarily on themselves, and on the help of the spirits of their ancestors, whom we know by name in more than TWO, ATI generations, which are at least 500 years old, and according to the good and 700 years of the memory of the Family, and the Spirits of Elements and Places - ready to fight for our future as our distant ancestors - the Hunnu Warriors, the Genghis Khan Warriors, the Jungar Warriors, and when it is decided - to accept it with dignity, whatever it may be ... That's what it was, is and will be. And not your religions, philosophies, dreams, and other countless fantasies, in which you yourself are already confused to such an extent that you DO NOT already believe in anything .... And this is already very bad for you
  43. Dzungar
    Dzungar 22 November 2017 15: 17 New
    0
    What is interesting - How does the West tread Russia and Russians, including in history, trying to deprive it of the past, and therefore the future, SAME AND RUSSIAN, I hope their small part * COMES * with weaker peoples, trying to knock them out of their history is under their feet, and therefore also - to deprive of the future ... It's like in that saying - every slave dreams of his own slave ... Perhaps there is another option here - those who are from the West in Russia are treading Russia and Russians, THE SAME THE MOST LI.A AND THE ORGANIZATION, AND FROM LI, AND RUSSIA hitting these weaker peoples, sowing hostility between them and discord ... One remarkable point is that in every discussion concerning history, namely, the history of the Middle Ages of Russia, there are individuals who are no longer involved in discussions except in this particular subject. And despite the different profiles, they demonstrate one common syllable .....
  44. Seal
    Seal 23 November 2017 12: 47 New
    +2
    Quote: Dzungar
    How does the West oppress Russia and Russians, including in history, trying to deprive it of the past,

    The West is treading Russia, trying to deprive us of the past that we ourselves have begun to create from some not so distant historical standards. And it frustrates because the West itself is used to the fact that for several centuries we regularly ate everything supposedly "our past", which we had been preparing for centuries in the Vatican’s kitchens. And the West does not understand why we ceased to perceive him (the West) as a Great Teacher. But in you, apparently, such an admiration for the West sits genetically that you are ready to fight to the death for any pseudo-historical fantasies created in the Vatican cuisine. Including for "Genghis Khan."
  45. Seal
    Seal 23 November 2017 13: 19 New
    +2
    Quote: Karen
    And who, apart from historians, will answer me to such a statement of the question? Not literary scholars!

    Do you think that historians will say something to you? Neither you, nor I, nor historians, nor literary critics, nor police officers, nor chemists or physicists participated in those duels, did you? Dueling in the era of Nicholas I was forbidden and therefore they and their details were carefully hidden. In fact, they were, so to speak, intimate affairs. Therefore, such details about whether any of the participants in this or that duel, for example, chain mail or cuirasses, could only be the participants themselves, for example, in their subsequent memoirs. But as far as I (we all) know, none of the surviving participants in the duels admitted that he acted against the rules. That is, acted honestly. True, if the participants in the duels were therefore either writers, these confessions could have been disguised by them in various literary works. And here, by the way, the field of activity is for literary scholars who you rejected, and not for historians. Historians can make their assumptions only on the basis of the assumptions of literary scholars that, according to their (literary critics) opinion, this or that author did not reflect his fiction, but nevertheless included some of of your own life.
    1. Karen
      Karen 23 November 2017 13: 33 New
      0
      Maybe you should look in the church archives? :) and what, maybe they did the confession on their deathbed :)
  46. Seal
    Seal 23 November 2017 15: 25 New
    +2
    Quote: Karen
    maybe they made confessions on their deathbed :)

    If confessions would be made so to speak “publicly” - then this would have been known for a long time.
    If only to the priest - then this already refers to the "last confession." It is very doubtful that the priest would violate the secrets of confession and retell to someone what he heard from the dying man. And even more so, it is doubtful that the priest would write down the secrets of the confessions and transmit them to certain “church archives”.
    In addition, everything that deserved attention that was in the “church archives” in the Soviet era was transferred to the state archives.
    1. Karen
      Karen 23 November 2017 18: 46 New
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      The clergy, as representatives of a structured system, I think, were obliged to convey the secrets of confession "up". :)
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  48. Dzungar
    Dzungar 23 November 2017 18: 03 New
    0
    Quote: Seal
    which we ourselves began to create from some not so distant by historical standards pores.

    Keyword * create *, Freud clause. Do not restore, do not recreate ... A - CREATE YOURSELF YOURSELF, that is, re-create, you have to come up with .... What other questions might be ...?
    1. Seal
      Seal 23 November 2017 18: 48 New
      +2
      Quote: Dzungar
      Keyword * create *, Freud clause.

      And do not hope. Exactly create. And we began to create our own history somewhere from the end of the 16th century - the beginning of the 17th century. Then something became more or less documented by us. And everything that was before this, especially before the 15th century, was written for us. There are no documents.
      1. Dzungar
        Dzungar 23 November 2017 19: 15 New
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        Judging by your many lamentations, much was written for you much later ... Therefore, you are now * creating * your story again - THINKING OUT. And for this you need, as already mentioned by someone above, to take away a piece of it from someone ....
  49. Dzungar
    Dzungar 23 November 2017 18: 07 New
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    Quote: Seal
    And the West does not understand why we ceased to perceive him (the West) as a Great Teacher.

    For some reason, I always thought that the Russians had never seen in the West * the Great Teacher * .... Again, a reservation of the sent from the West * Cossack * inventing the history of the Russians anew .... But in fact, an enemy called by fictions of all kinds to sow discord and enmity between the peoples of Russia
    1. Seal
      Seal 23 November 2017 19: 10 New
      +2
      For some reason I always thought that the Russians had never seen in the West * the Great Teacher *.

      Well, in your confession that you "thought" it - nothing surprising. All your comments prove this is your quality. hi
      On the very grandfather, the fact that in our history the notorious “Tatar-Mongol yoke”, as well as the “calling of the Varangians” have almost firmly entrenched, is precisely the result of respectful attention to the teachings of the West. angry
      When Moscow sent the Pope on his erotic journey with his claims to the right to be “the spiritual leader and teacher of Russia,” and declared herself the Third Rome - The First Rome was very offended by us. And he began to invent all kinds of fables about us. For example, the "Tatar yoke" is an invention of Poles Catholics, who also had the goal of proving that Poland was the last outpost of civilization in Eastern Europe. Then, when during the Napoleonic forces, Europeans saw real Tatars in Europe and Paris and were surprised that the Tatars - exactly the same Europeans as themselves - European historians quickly began to transform the "Tatar yoke" first into the Tatar-Mongolian, then into " Mongol-Tatar ", and now often even we ourselves are limited to one" Mongolian ". And the "Khalkha" nationality was appointed to the post of "Mongols".
      Likewise, when the Swedes had to designate their "rights" to the "Kemsku parish" - the Swede Peter Petreus created the theory that once upon a time the Vikings, who are Swedes, were called to rule in Russia. And so the word "Mongol" in Turkic means the Eternal country "Mangi el". The Millennium Reich, for example, was also the “Deutschland Mangi el” (Germanic Mongols). Well, our liberalists, who already looked at the West with admiration, unanimously picked up these theories, that yes, here we are, silver-footed, 300 years under the yoke. Before that, they couldn’t understand each other - the Varangians had to call overseas to rule us. Ugh .. None of the birch bark letters ever contains the words: "Tatar", "Mongol", "Mongol-Tatar", "Tatar-Mongol", Baskak "," Khan, "Great Khan", "Horde", " yoke "," Batu "and so on. But the current liberals, relying on Karamzin, spit in the souls of our ancestors, and did not suspect that they were" under the yoke. "These liberals, those on duty, these cheap things, ready to sell for any currency , in fact, are traitors to the Russian people, because day and night they inspire and inspire this idiotic fantasy about the "Tatar-Mongol yoke", like, dear Russians, nothing it’s okay that we were once “conquered by wild nomads”, it only benefited us. It’s okay that we were conquered, because in the end we did it ... So now there’s nothing wrong with us for a while, the West and the NATO bloc will take custody of it ..... it will only benefit us, as once the supposedly "notorious" Mongol-Tatar yoke "supposedly benefited. Well, we’ll sit for 200- 300 under Western control, they inspire, so we’ll only become smarter and better.
      Ugh on you with your ideas about the "Tatar-Mongol yoke" again.
      We, Slavs - Russians never gave our land to anyone. No Mongol Tatars. And we will not give it to anyone. And do not hope.

      When, I can say the same thing about Turkey. When the Ottomans began to beat the European Catholics left and right, the Vatican, in order to substantiate the theoretical basis of the struggle against the Ottomans, came up with the idea that they, the Ottomans, came to Europe "from the depths of Asia." And so successfully introduced this version into the minds of humanity that now the former Ottomans themselves are sure that they came from the depths of Asia. At the same time, the West for some reason forgets that the current capital of Turkey, Ankara, was founded not by anyone, but by the Celts (Galatians) who migrated to the Anatolian Peninsula. Which historians have 12 separate clans (clans), which is very suspiciously looks like 12 tribes of Israel. And they forget that in the 15th century almost the entire Ottoman Empire was located in Europe, on the Balkan Peninsula. It was from there, from the Balkan Peninsula, that the Turkish conquests began. In order to explain how it happened - historians have to come up with some kind of nonsense. However, as I already said, we also have a lot of liberal pi ......... in, stupidly believing and brazenly promoting this belief in the "Mongol-Tatar yoke."

      Quote: Dzungar
      But in fact, an enemy called by fictions of all kinds to sow discord and enmity between the peoples of Russia

      Again, I can state with satisfaction that you again betrayed your treacherous designs. In fact, it’s you, inspiring everyone here that we once had bloody battles with the Tatars and Mongols and propagandizing that they were these, these ugly Mongols and Tatars who, Russians, kept us under the yoke for 300 years (which a priori considered as a call to avenge vile oppressors .. well, for the death of the oppressors themselves - to avenge their descendants) - just incite hostility and sow discord between the peoples of Russia (Slavs and Tatars), and between Russia and present-day Mongolia, which actually not at all at business.
  50. Dzungar
    Dzungar 23 November 2017 19: 10 New
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    Quote: Seal
    But in you, apparently, such a worship of the West sits genetically,

    I repeat my post - I CAN ONLY HOMERICALLY CLICK IN ANSWER TO THESE YOUR WORDS ... As above words filled exclusively with idiocy. We never had any admiration before you, especially before some West .... But you definitely had it, judging by your words or a reservation - the West as the Great Teacher ....