Military Review

Great Patriotic War: a lie against the truth

70
Great Patriotic War: a lie against the truth



Reich Minister of Education and Propaganda of Germany Goebbels once said a phrase that many and many enemies of the USSR later took as the starting point in their propaganda activities, and later Russia - "the more lies, the sooner they will believe in it ...".

And away! What a lie about the Second World War, we have not heard since! .. Entire streams of historical falsification ... because of thoughtlessness, lack of understanding, from ignorance and quite consciously, deliberately. Distortion stories became the main theme in the modern information war. Western intelligence agencies, journalists who are in their care, all kinds of military "historians" and "analysts", as well as their allies inside Russia, are trying in every way to diminish the greatest feat of the peoples of the Soviet Union during the Great Patriotic War. On the "examples" sucked from the finger and frankly fabricated "documents" they "prove" that there was in fact no heroism, no courage, no achievements in the field of weapons production, but only the fear of cruel power, whose representatives drove people to slaughter, after covering the Germans with corpses.

Without blinking an eye, Western propagandists say: "The USSR was going to attack Germany and therefore the latter had to take the lead", "Stalin and Hitler are equally guilty of fomenting war", "many millions of Soviet citizens fought against Soviet power for Hitler" .. .and so on and so forth. And with each year more and more similar pseudo-historical nonsense becomes ... again, directly according to Dr. Goebbels: "a repeatedly repeated lie becomes true."

The latest “fashionable” trend in the difficult task of distorting the historical truth and diminishing the greatness of the Victory can, perhaps, be considered a large-scale falsification of data on Soviet casualties during the war. The most gracious topic for the West, because there is no uniform method of counting, many documents, both in Russia and in the West, are still in secret archives, and besides - no one bears any responsibility for inaccurate information about losses, and the figures are completely different, it seems that sometimes they are taken simply "from the ceiling." Here, for example, foreign “historians” consider the losses of Germany and include only soldiers in them, and in relation to the USSR they unite the losses of civilians and soldiers and give them away for the losses of the Red Army. At the same time, in the calculations for the same Germany, they accidentally “miss” the losses of the armies of Romania, Hungary, Italy and Finland, although in the 1941 year they, together with Germany, attacked the USSR and fought on the Soviet-German front.

Sometimes a lie turns out to be so deeply integrated into the context that only experts can recognize it, while the rest, for whom, in fact, is designed to "trick", you have to, as they say, take a word. Which of us is well versed in such purely military terms as the army, division, corps? Who can, not google, call their numerical strength? I’m sure units. And on this our ignorance lies the lie about, for example, losses in the infantry divisions of the USSR and Germany. Comparing them, they give bare figures, “forgetting” (again, as in the previous example about the allies of Germany) to explain that the size of the German infantry division for a considerable period of the war corresponded to the composition of about two Soviet infantry divisions, and German tank the corps of three divisions had about 600-700 tanks, that is, about the same as the Soviet tank army.

Meanwhile, the figure of the total losses of the USSR (in the interpretation of Western “historians” and a number of liberal media) by the autumn of 2017 had reached almost 50 million (!!!) people. Against 7 millions - for the first time sounded by Stalin in March 1946 of the year. In this case, the blame lies mainly on the Supreme Commander and the "untalented" "cruel" Soviet commanders, who were unable to competently, competently and caring for the soldiers to control the troops. And this is against the background of the victories of the Red Army that are obvious to the whole world, against the background of heroism, unparalleled valor, humanism and humanity of its soldiers and officers!

Seeing the inconsistency of their own lies about the lack of talent of the Soviet military command, propagandists from the special services immediately give the following argument that, they say, in modern Russia, everyone has long spat on the casualty figures and on the very history of the war, because "young do not care, and the old simply pity the dead. "

And this is another lie! Young people are actively interested in history, queues are lined up for the thematic exhibitions and expositions, each new domestic film about the Great Patriotic War collects full cinemas, most viewers, as you might guess, are young people. And military-historical restorations have long been transformed from a fashion trend into regular events.

It is possible that “silence”, “exaggeration” and other historical perversions are useful to someone: someone improves his rating, someone gains political points, and someone seeks to whitewash his own history, but all this definitely not about Russia, whose population remembers its history, bows to the heroism of Soviet soldiers and officers and carefully keeps the memory of the tremendous sacrifices of the Soviet people in the Great Patriotic War.
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  1. tasha
    tasha 10 November 2017 06: 32 New
    +7
    Very bad article.
    The author is trying to prove something with slogans and allegations of lies.
    1. Loess
      Loess 10 November 2017 15: 14 New
      18
      I did not find slogans in the article ... I read it twice and did not find it.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 10 November 2017 15: 46 New
        +4
        Quote: Less
        I did not find slogans in the article ... I read it twice and did not find it.

        For a start:
        Meanwhile, the figure of total losses of the USSR (in the interpretation of Western "historians" and a number of liberal media) by the fall of 2017 reached almost 50 million (!!!) people. Against 7 million - first voiced by Stalin in March 1946.

        Further, in theory, there should have been figures of losses of military personnel of the Red Army, other people's commissariats and the civilian population, cited by various researchers, and their analysis. And instead:
        At the same time, the blame lies mainly with the Supreme Commander-in-Chief and the "mediocre" "cruel" Soviet military commanders, who were unable to competently, with knowledge of the matter and concern for the soldiers, to manage the troops. And this is against the background of the victories of the Red Army that are absolutely obvious to the whole world, against the background of heroism, unparalleled valor, humanism and humanity of its soldiers and officers!

        I would like to recall that last time the substitution of military-historical studies of the Great Patriotic War by GlavPURovsky slogans about the invincible red army and its great contribution to victory Rezun and other revisionists were born.
        1. Loess
          Loess 10 November 2017 16: 01 New
          14
          With all due respect, these quotes are not slogans, but as for:
          Meanwhile, the total losses of the USSR (as interpreted by Western “historians” and a number of liberal media) by the fall of 2017 reached almost 50 millions (!!!) people.
          then at one time in one of the history textbooks for high school, published as it was written on the first page with the support of the Soros Foundation, I met the number 60 millions. This textbook was in my hand in the second half of the 90's ...
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 10 November 2017 17: 05 New
            +4
            Quote: Less
            With all due respect, these quotes are not slogans.

            But what is it?
            And this is against the background of the victories of the Red Army that are absolutely obvious to the whole world, against the background of heroism, unparalleled valor, humanism and humanity of its soldiers and officers!

            Quote: Less
            then at one time in one of the history textbooks for high school, published as it was written on the first page with the support of the Soros Foundation, I met the number 60 millions. This textbook was in my hand in the second half of the 90's ...

            I believe - in those days, the number of repressed in the 30s declared by the pigs sometimes approached the population of the USSR at that time. smile
            That's just to refute the unsubstantiated allegations of revisionists and liberals need figures, documents and archival files. Not statements about heroism, unparalleled prowess, humanism and humanity of soldiers and officers of the Red Army.
            1. Varyag_0711
              Varyag_0711 10 November 2017 17: 17 New
              21
              Alexey RA Today, 17: 05 ↑ New
              That's just to refute the unsubstantiated allegations of revisionists and liberals need figures, documents and archival files. And not statements about heroism, unparalleled prowess, humanism and humanity of soldiers and officers of the Red Army.
              Actually, the article is posted in the heading "Opinions", and not in the "Analytics" and the article is not about how many actually died, but about falsification. About how many died here, so many copies have already been judged that it is already sore. And you are there, where there is analytics, where are the exact numbers. Be afraid of God, even the Lord God most likely does not know the exact numbers. No need to rush to the author, he did not claim to be an exact debriefing. And you won’t know the whole truth, even though you will crawl ALL archives from Moscow to Berlin, London and Washington. Yes, they will not let you go there. So calm down already.
              1. tasha
                tasha 10 November 2017 18: 38 New
                +6
                So calm down already.

                Well, what are you like that. Disputes over the losses of our country during the Great Patriotic War do not stop. Right now I am reading a collection of articles by V.M.Safir, including on the topic of losses of the USSR armed forces (attention - in addition to other literature). It seems to me that if the author of the article had studied any materials on this issue, pathos would have been much less ..

                And the losses were enormous ... And there was no justification for the guilty ... Their hands are not on the elbow, they are all in the blood ... This is a very, very difficult topic for debate ... And hide behind the excuses that all this is the invention of liberals, the unsubstantiated allegations of the revisionists - simply not ...
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 10 November 2017 22: 31 New
                  +7
                  Quote: tasha
                  And the losses were enormous ... And there was no excuse for the guilty ... Their hands are not to the elbow, they are all in the blood ...

                  Let's cut the guilty to the last European?
                  Quote: tasha
                  And hide behind the excuses that all this is fiction liberals

                  Liberals shift the blame from those who actually killed the Russians - Germans, Hungarians, Romanians, Italians, French, Czechs, Finns and so on, to those who fought with them or led the battles.
                  1. tasha
                    tasha 11 November 2017 05: 02 New
                    +2
                    Let's cut the guilty to the last European?

                    Let's. You send money for a knife or an ax? Discard the card number ... A better photo on both sides wink

                    Liberals shift blame

                    How convenient. "This is what the liberals say ...." - and that’s all, you don’t have to think ...
                    1. Setrac
                      Setrac 11 November 2017 11: 41 New
                      +1
                      Quote: tasha
                      How convenient. "This is what the liberals say ...." - and that's all, you don’t have to think ..

                      The essence is not in the name - the enemies of our state.
                      Quote: tasha
                      Let's. Send you money for a knife or an ax

                      We need more money, we will "master" everything.
          2. Trotil42
            Trotil42 13 November 2017 20: 23 New
            +1
            In many respects we are to blame ... for the number of losses ... and I am responsible for my words ... my grandfather and great-grandfather left our family for the war .. You will never guess how many of them are dead ... three people! !! Although the great-grandfather returned from captivity ... because of the loss of 1 person ... something like that ... it’s just that the grandfather's name is distorted in the award and funeral ... and so far he is listed as twice dead .. and the great-grandfather came in 46g. after the announcement of the official results of the losses .. and still he is on the lists of the missing near Stalingrad of the Russian Ministry of Defense i.e. in irreparable loss ... although buried in 1969 ....
    2. svp67
      svp67 10 November 2017 18: 02 New
      +2
      Quote: tasha
      Very bad article.

      I support. The author of the "elephant in the china shop", not only completely unable to explain something ...
      Which of us is well versed in such purely military terms as the army, division, corps?
      And the author can tell, not by “google” how much the number of Soviet Guards Tank Regiment breakthrough MORE tank platoon heavy tank battalion? And is he capable of breaking through the defense of such a battalion, in a direct clash?
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 10 November 2017 18: 50 New
        +3
        Quote: svp67
        And a car can tell, not by “google”, how many are the numbers of the Soviet Guards Tank Regiment of breaking through MORE than a tank platoon of a heavy tank battalion?

        Anisimov immediately remembered:
        We managed to discuss yesterday’s story with an army journalist. M * duck in lieutenant uniforms laughed when he was told how they burned a platoon of "tigers". Regiment - platoon. One after the other, having spat at a fucking correspondent under his feet, the Letekhi and higher ranks turned away so as not to see his faces, the younger lieutenants simply left the showroom in the distance.
        So, some rear guard begins to show off at the warehouse of fuel: what are you, the heroes, fighting with one German with three armies ... But what - he has no idea about the states of the units, about how the "tiger" who rolls at you looks like, - also. But there is a lot of ambition. I wonder if there is an intelligent and polite man among the front-line soldiers who will explain that a platoon of Soviet self-propelled guns is two cars, and a platoon of German tanks is five, or will it go about being spat out? And that their self-propelled regiment, when fresh, is sixteen barrels, and the German tank regiment is under one hundred and fifty armored beasts, more than one and a half of our brigade or almost like an American division ...
        1. svp67
          svp67 10 November 2017 18: 54 New
          +5
          Quote: Alexey RA
          We managed to discuss yesterday’s story with an army journalist. M * duck in lieutenant uniforms laughed when he was told how they burned a platoon of "tigers". Regiment - platoon.

          Yes, and this is so, 21 tanks or self-propelled guns versus 5 Wehrmacht “panzers”, with better optics and quality of guns and shells. Our Grandfathers HEROES and I them all and specifically their proud
  2. Vasily Krylov
    Vasily Krylov 10 November 2017 15: 52 New
    12
    There were many or few losses in that war, I don’t know. I know differently these losses hiccup to us still. Almost all the problems that we have now have roots, by and large, there, in 1945, when the best ones didn’t return and those who know how. I know what I’m talking about and never forget about it and constantly tell others. Respectfully. PS A person under whose name I write to V Oh also died in that war.
    1. 210ox
      210ox 10 November 2017 16: 04 New
      +8
      Almost all the problems that we have now have their roots, by and large, there, in 1945, when the best and those who know how didn’t return. I know what I'm talking about and never forget about it and constantly tell others .. ..Now bow to Vasily Krylov .... But! Not those bitter years hiccup us ... But how and what our leaders did next with the country .. Yes, many wonderful people died .. But a lot of wonderful people were born. And wonderful discoveries and accomplishments were made .. But the fact that the leadership of the country betrayed us to the theme of the Great Patriotic War was in no way at all. And by no means. And the problems are not connected with it .. hi
      Quote: Vasily Krylov
      There were many or few losses in that war, I don’t know. I know differently these losses hiccup to us still. Almost all the problems that we have now have roots, by and large, there, in 1945, when the best ones didn’t return and those who know how. I know what I’m talking about and never forget about it and constantly tell others. Respectfully. PS A person under whose name I write to V Oh also died in that war.
      1. Antianglosax
        Antianglosax 10 November 2017 19: 24 New
        +5
        But for some reason, it’s beneficial for the authorities to maintain such a mood. There is no need to mind, not to steer the economy! They would have hinted to "whoever needs it" (the liberal enemy is still in sight, like droppings) that it is not good to do this - we will excommunicate the dough and other goods, the dull light "dark" one. And the history textbook is the right one to do. So all the abomination that is happening is a direct connivance, and somewhere, the indulgence of our respected authorities. I’ll generally keep silent about the zombie man and SMRAD - they are precisely being driven by the most rabid enemies of Russia, so the current state spits twice on the Great Patriotic War and the truth about it. Only single enthusiasts rally people who seek to know the truth and understand it.
      2. Krabik
        Krabik 14 November 2017 14: 04 New
        0
        Just this is the point;)

        The same Khrushchev showed himself in the Second World War far from the best side, and after he became head of state.
    2. antivirus
      antivirus 10 November 2017 16: 22 New
      +4
      for a year, auto giants issued "winter car options for Russia."
      and the failures in demography - EVERYTHING FROM STALIN AND WWII AND NOT A SINGLE LINE ABOUT YEGORKA AND BORKA. already these have gone down in history. GDP is also not responsible for gypsies and other peasants? 3 waves of fertility decline from the Second World War have already passed.
      we live by inertia, without national slogans and goals!
      1. Vasily Krylov
        Vasily Krylov 11 November 2017 01: 13 New
        +3
        Recently I re-read “The Rubanyuk Family”, the novel was written right after the war, in hot pursuit. I recommend it. In my opinion, the questions raised in the remarks are answered in my short note. The best die first. And there would be no Mishka with a spot, nor Borka and Yegorkov’s grandfather Arkady would have strangled himself. Something like that. Regards.
  3. parusnik
    parusnik 10 November 2017 16: 18 New
    +3
    Without batting an eye, Western propagandists say:
    ... Why refer to "theirs" .. we have a lot of our own ... They work hand in hand ..
  4. The comment was deleted.
    1. Varyag_0711
      Varyag_0711 10 November 2017 17: 28 New
      21
      Well, I can’t understand why the Great Patriotic War, if it started and ended not in our native land, but in the occupied territories.
      Oh how? This is in what occupied territories the Great Patriotic War began, huh? Enlighten us orphans?
      On September 1, 1939, the official beginning of World War II, in which the USSR took an active part directly from September, was not defending itself somehow, but attacking its neighbors - Poland, Finland, Romania, the Baltic states ...
      Everything is masterpiece and masterpiece ... laughing laughing laughing In principle, everything is clear with you, a liberal is the mildest definition. The trouble with our liberals is that for some reason they forget that in Finland, Poland, the Baltic states, Romania, and then also Japan, we took our own territories occupied before that from us.
      And yes, in your "authoritative" opinion, we ourselves are the aggressors. The article is about you and falsifiers like you.
      Excuse me, is your name not Sytin, not Chubais, not Amanuel? Aw, you hto?
      1. Just a man
        Just a man 10 November 2017 17: 40 New
        +5
        The worst thing is that they live in this russophobic world invented by them. Cosmopolitans who live where their asses are warmer and Western "values" closer, including same-sex marriage
      2. mat-vey
        mat-vey 10 November 2017 18: 28 New
        +4
        These are standard fairy tales .. so on goebels about which it is more often to repeat a lie ... It’s good that at least about who forged a sword to Hitler didn’t sound and thanks for that ...
      3. Alexey Pishenkov
        Alexey Pishenkov 10 November 2017 18: 52 New
        +2
        Dear Varyag, first of all, for your attention, you are a fat deuce with a minus, since my name and surname are written right at the very beginning and I do not consider it necessary to hide them under different names of either a ship or a hired soldier. If you also carefully study history, then the depth of knowledge can, in principle, be imagined.
        Secondly, I dare to assure you, it’s just my views that are very far from liberalism, at least in your understanding of it. Thirdly, for you, Sirs, how you christened yourself, I’ll enlighten at your request, if you haven’t heard about this before: military operations on the morning of 22.06.1941/1939/1939 German troops began against units of the Red Army and the NKVD located on the territory of the so-called Western Belarus - two years before as a result of an armed conflict of the territory of Poland occupied by the USSR, this action in 1940 was carried out in full cooperation with the German Wehrmacht, at the end of the defeat of Poland, at a meeting, the commanders of the two armies that entered Poland from the west and east were massively stinging hands to each other, congratulated on the victory of a common enemy, etc. Someone may like it, maybe not, but in accordance with all international agreements that were in force at the beginning of World War II, the borders that the Soviet troops crossed in the western direction in XNUMX and XNUMX were in no way controversial, it was officially established territories of sovereign states. The fact that they didn’t suit someone was another matter ... The Second World War ended well, not in the USSR, didn’t the fatherland mean it, or else argue with that too?
        Also, I generally, in principle, against some speculation on the topic that someone has a historical right for something, etc., etc. - the USSR itself recognized and signed these borders at one time. All. Basta. And you know, you can say that someone like Alaska should be because we sold it without thinking, or we are obliged to return Kaliningrad (Königsberg) to the Germans, and to order the Indians to return to Britain - they left the crown without asking. ... In the world, maps have changed so many times that in this way you can reach anything ...
        By the way, I’m sorry that you, because of your carelessness, didn’t understand my main idea, because I didn’t christen our country as an aggressor and did not reproach anything, and I didn’t doubt the great victory in World War II - if you read it again, ATTENTIVELY, this is about the fact that it is precisely the uneducated patriots who are trying to present more and more beautifully and cleanly that in the end, without realizing it, they discredit ... this is the problem ...
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 10 November 2017 21: 39 New
          13
          Quote: Alexey Pishenkov
          Also, I generally, in principle, against some speculation on the topic that someone has a historical right for something, etc., etc. - the USSR itself recognized and signed these borders at one time. All. Basta.

          What wonderful characterizes the value of your "research" of those not so distant times.
          Your "Basta!" comes from the following postulates:
          1) In your understanding, there is a certain “right” international law, acting in accordance with
          Quote: Alexey Pishenkov
          about all international agreements in force at the beginning of World War II

          2) The actions of the USSR, contrary to the "right" international law, are declared illegal and incorrect by you. And although you veil it with a stream of consciousness, the implication is obvious - the USSR was wrong in these actions, and we must admit it. Repent and obey :)
          In principle, the position seemed to have the right to life, but the misfortune was that there was no “right international law” before WWII. It did not exist for a very long time, and here, in principle, one can argue about whether this was even the most international law after World War I in Europe?
          What does international law say about the Versailles peace treaty? And about his violation by Germany? And what about the guarantors of Versailles, England and France, who generally had the full right and even the duty to bring the lost German sheep to the stall of the Versailles agreements? Ah, I completely forgot, League of Nations .... which silently looked at the trampling of that very “right” world law, which is so sweet to your heart.
          "Why do we consider the Second World War since 1941, if the evil and coherent USSR attacked a small, miserable Finland? This is a violation of international law!" - you exclaim. Fine! But nothing that the "Europeans" violated not only international, but generally any concept of law, by signing the Munich Agreement in 1938? Sanctioned the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia? So what are you attracting WWII to 1939? What would you, such a connoisseur of international law, not declare the beginning of World War II the year 1938, indicate that it began in Munich, and call Daladier, Chamberlain, Hitler and Mussolini who signed the Munich Agreement its initiators?
          Why are you, instead of saying - after the main European countries did not give a damn about the concept of international law, after the USSR was refused an anti-fascist alliance, after offers of military assistance to Poland were ignored and when it became clear that no right was left in Europe, and only brute force rules the ball - then yes, the USSR ... what? Stopped complying with international law? :))))
          And this is a very big question :)) For example, in the case of Poland, the USSR did not violate any international law, because it entered its troops when the state of Poland as a subject of international law ceased to exist and all previously signed agreements with it automatically (according to the same international right) canceled.
          But what is this sadness to you? You will lie (let's call a spade a spade) a people who do not know history too well about international laws that the USSR allegedly violated.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. badens1111
            badens1111 11 November 2017 14: 25 New
            +2
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            which the USSR allegedly violated.

            Great answer.
            I wonder how, with what knowledge, people like Pishenkov will be talking about some kind of international law, if it is right, DOESN’T EXIST now.
            The U.S. decided to bomb Serbia, they bombed, Gaddafi decided to kill Europe, they killed, they wanted to commit a bloody nightmare in Syria, raising ISIS there, they did ... and this seems like some kind of right that the Union allegedly violated, regaining what Poland had occupied. .
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 11 November 2017 17: 40 New
              +3
              Quote: badens1111
              I wonder how, with what knowledge, people like Pishenkov will be talking about some kind of international law, if it is right, DOESN’T EXIST now.

              Since this is not the first time I have been talking with such figures, I can quite responsibly declare: the intelligentsia :)))))) That is, in these people worship of the West is simply sewn at some genetic level. As a result - there is absolutely no critical thinking about European politics of those years - people do not fully point out what England and France have done. In the last topic where we talked, you probably noticed that I was not at all a supporter of the idea of ​​a global conspiracy against the USSR and Russia, but the British and French, and without any conspiracy, pushed the world to a terrible war in the history of mankind.
              By the way, Pishenkov is not so bad - half of the people who share his views exploded with indignation, splashing everything around at the stage of reminding myths of US history. Pishenkov is at least ready to admit it :))))
              And international law ... Here, as always - as long as there are two poles (for example, the USSR and the USA after WWII) - there is international law (with reservations, of course, but there are), there are no two poles - international law ends abruptly
              Incidentally, this is natural - any law is nothing, without a force that is ready to force others to comply with this law.
              1. badens1111
                badens1111 11 November 2017 20: 10 New
                +2
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Since this is not the first time I have been talking with such figures here, I can quite responsibly declare: the intelligentsia :))))))

                Thank you, you're right .. I would add a rotten intelligentsia.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Incidentally, this is natural - any law is nothing, without a force that is ready to force others to comply with this law.

                Conclusion? It’s simple, all the slobbering intelligentsia proposing to change guns for butter, for the sake of their wonderful dreams .. in the fields, get bread and butter from milk.
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 11 November 2017 20: 50 New
                  +2
                  Quote: badens1111
                  Thank you, you're right .. I would add a rotten intelligentsia.

                  With all due respect: “rotten intelligentsia” is “butter oil” :))))))) Let's just say “rot” and “intelligentsia” are synonyms :)))
                  1. badens1111
                    badens1111 11 November 2017 21: 10 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    "rot" and "intelligentsia" are synonyms :)))

                    Just .. YES!)))) drinks
        2. Setrac
          Setrac 10 November 2017 22: 39 New
          +4
          Quote: Alexey Pishenkov
          congratulated on the victory of the common enemy, etc.

          You see, dear, if the Third Reich is our enemy, this does not mean that Poland, at war with it, is our friend! They are both our enemies both then and now.
          Quote: Alexey Pishenkov
          located on the territory of the so-called Western Belarus

          Why so-called? It is quite a part of Belarus. Google the "Curzon line" - go for the clever ... maybe.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 11 November 2017 14: 02 New
            +4
            It is a pity that they deleted the comment of our "friend" that he addressed to me. Not that I would expect much from him, but it was interesting that he had an objection :)
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 11 November 2017 15: 15 New
              +1
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              It is a pity that they deleted the comment of our "friend" that he addressed to me. Not that I would expect much from him, but it was interesting that he had an objection :)

              The volumetric response was
              1. badens1111
                badens1111 11 November 2017 20: 11 New
                0
                Quote: Setrac
                The volumetric response was

                Very stupid and very offensive.
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 11 November 2017 20: 19 New
                  +1
                  Quote: badens1111
                  Very stupid and very offensive.

                  But we did not expect anything else from the enemy.
                2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 11 November 2017 20: 51 New
                  +1
                  Quote: badens1111
                  Very stupid and very offensive.

                  AND! Well, you don’t get used to it :))) When such leaders end their argument (and, as a matter of fact, they didn’t start), insults begin :)
      4. karabas86
        karabas86 10 November 2017 21: 11 New
        +4
        He is just a stupid person who studied in Soros textbooks.
    2. Just a man
      Just a man 10 November 2017 17: 34 New
      +5
      You yourself would poke in your shit, as you put it in your opus. In your commentary, there is only one lie, condensed miscarriages of Western lies and a la rezunov. I don’t even want to answer you with facts and assessments about your nonsense.
      1. Alexey Pishenkov
        Alexey Pishenkov 10 November 2017 19: 00 New
        +2
        ... but you still try the facts, if you certainly have them ...
    3. captain
      captain 10 November 2017 17: 35 New
      +2
      Dear Alexey Pishenkov. I do not agree with you for example; "..., tales of Panfilov’s." Panfilov’s division played a large role in the defensive battle near Moscow. They were called "Panfilov". But about 28 Panfilovites and dozens of tanks they stopped, including 18 wrecked ones, this of course lies. It turns out that the Germans (and there were about 40 tanks) were advancing at the front of the 400 m and waiting for them to run up to and set fire to. The person who wrote this article apparently was never in the trenches. He was a political journalist and God was his judge, because thanks to him, a soldier who sided with the Germans also received the Hero of the Soviet Union. There is such an interesting book; "Military personnel during the Great Patriotic War (or 2-th World War, sorry I do not remember, but if you need the exact name, write in a personal, I will find)." The author is Army General Beloborodov. The vulture was "Top Secret" at the time. At the academy, Frunze was at 1983-85gg on duty subscription. So there is an interesting figure: we lost one million officers of irreparable losses. Around 600 thousand com. platoons and company. Political workers of all ranks 92. thousand irretrievable losses; dead, wounded, shot, convicted and not returning to service, deserters, missing. This is more than the Germans and their allies, by the way they fought not only with us. But this does not mean that our officers were cowards or stupid. Platoon commanders raised our attack, I emphasize, platoon commanders. In the most severe cases, the company. The Germans were a little different.
      1. mat-vey
        mat-vey 10 November 2017 18: 31 New
        +3
        My grandfather fought with Panfilov’s in a tank company assigned to them .. after the war they lured him to Kazakhstan - the doctors advised me to change the climate due to wounds and burns (it burned in a tank on Kursk) ...
      2. Alexey Pishenkov
        Alexey Pishenkov 10 November 2017 19: 07 New
        +4
        Thanks for the adequate feedback,
        Incidentally, I, by the way, the feat of the Panfilov’s division itself, of all the fighters in Moscow, and indeed the USSR in the war, didn’t cast doubt on and do not intend to. I’m just talking about the fact that such pseudo-patriotic attempts to embellish everything and everything are rather a disservice, on the basis of obvious false blunders, presented as truth, then there is the possibility of discrediting and everything else ... it was the main idea, which some "active patriots "just did not understand ...
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 10 November 2017 22: 42 New
          +5
          Quote: Alexey Pishenkov
          Incidentally, I, by the way, the feat of the Panfilov’s division itself, of all the fighters in Moscow, and indeed the USSR in the war, didn’t cast doubt on and do not intend to.

          Quote: Alexey Pishenkov
          so why, for example, fairy tales about Panfilov’s?

          Well, you generally lie, ban forever.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. badens1111
            badens1111 11 November 2017 14: 26 New
            0
            Quote: Setrac
            Well, you generally lie, ban forever.

            You are right.
            For such spiteful words that this Aleksey Pishenkov was talking about, it really should be done.
    4. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 10 November 2017 18: 22 New
      13
      What is this stream of mutilated consciousness?
      Quote: Alexey Pishenkov
      The problem is that we ourselves started this distortion (that is, the USSR) and, moreover, from the very beginning of the war itself, not to mention what happened after it.

      Study at your leisure the official history of WWII of the same USA. And then their REAL story. The number of outright fraud surpasses every limit. So what? You will see a lot of “truth-fighters” in the USA ... well, for example, telling Americans about how their young guys with experience of 5-8 hours of driving a tank burned in battles with fire, water and copper pipes of the Panzerwaffe in 1944?
      What did not hear? Reason did not write about this? What a shame ... laughing
      Of course, the history of the Second World War contains a fair amount of myths. The origin of these myths is more than understandable - someone wrote something wrong (as was the case with the same Panfilov’s), and voila! Please shave. And yes, in the end, everyone knows about the feat of 28 Panfilov’s (whose existence is extremely doubtful), but about the exploits of the Panfilov’s division, which successfully fought with three German divisions (None of the English, American, Polish, French or other fought against the Wehrmacht another division) is much less known to people.
      This is normal. In fact, despite all the fraud of the United States, their soldiers nevertheless fought against fascism, helped us by Lend-Lease, and all of this did a good deed that we will not forget. They then did a good deed and have every right to be proud of this moment in their history. And that their officialdom does not focus on either the concentration camps for the Japanese, or the drunk Fredendall, who sowed black when the Germans tore his troops in pieces in the Kasserin aisle - that’s understandable. Well, someone cares that the famous photograph of raising the flag over Iwo Jima, which has become almost the emblem of the US Marine Corps, is actually a production shot that the photographer took after all the fights (the soldiers posed for him)
      And what’s interesting. Not that the United States hid these facts - if there is a desire to roll up our sleeves and delve into history - everything will be found. But they DO NOT FIND them, and for the general public they seem to not exist ... why? Because the same Americans (before) knew perfectly well - to educate the younger generation, instilling in it patriotism, we need an understandable and consistent story, and the fact that half is omitted there and the other half is distorted - who considers them to you? :)))
      And what about us? But nothing. It would seem - hunting to debunk a myth, getting to the truth - roll up your sleeves, sit in the archives, work as you should - and when not once, but twenty-seven times you will check and make sure that it's a myth anyway - tell us about it and present evidence.
      So no! "True lovers", clutching at any nonsense (of the same rezun) happily yell at every intersection "here she is - a homespun and humble truth, repent to Herods!" The fact that instead of some myths they pile up others, many times worse, is unknown to them.
      Well, at least this
      Quote: Alexey Pishenkov
      Well, I can’t understand why the Great Patriotic War, if it started and ended not in our native land, but in the occupied territories. On September 1, 1939, the official beginning of World War II, in which the USSR took an active part right from September, was attacking its neighbors - Poland, Finland, Romania, the Baltic states ... but the war is somehow not considered World, and Patriotic and begins on June 22, 1941 ... And before that, what happened? ..

      If you're an eccentric, EVEN YOU are unable to figure it out - what kind of story do you undertake to write about?
      1. mat-vey
        mat-vey 10 November 2017 18: 45 New
        +9
        But what sort of thing is there - if the Poles, taking advantage of the difficulties in the country, chopped off part of the territories, then they need it - they can ... and return back - all aggression, although it seems like Curzon did not work in the USSR leadership ...
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 10 November 2017 19: 05 New
        +6
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        You will see a lot of “right-wing fighters” in the USA ... well, for example, telling the Americans how their young guys with experience of 5-8 hours of driving a tank burned in battles with fire, water and copper pipes of the Panzerwaffe in 1944?

        Or how their tanks crossed the minefield by trawling their own tracks. The first one in the column was blown up - the next one takes his place, and so on until the next blast. 3-4 tanks pass along the cleared path, grinding the soil into plasticine, the next tanks begin to bind - and you need to make a new passage, in the same way.
        Because the minesweeper tank burns out at the very beginning of the minefield, and you cannot interrupt the attack.
        Of the 64 vehicles, 48 ​​were lost in half an hour of such an attack.
      3. The comment was deleted.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 10 November 2017 20: 22 New
          +4
          Quote: Alexey Pishenkov
          If you're curious about the story and what I'm writing about it,

          I have already read in the comments. In the bookstore, I prefer to buy slightly different books - Churchill, Bradley, Overmans, Rolf, Mitchem Jr., Zhukov, Popel, Isaev, Yakovlev, Drabkin, Manstein, Tippelskirch, Mullegheim-Rehberg, Muller-Hillebrand, Carrier, Muller, Muller, Mayder, , many other authors unknown to you
          Quote: Alexey Pishenkov
          I do not impose an opinion on the name of the war and do not pass on YOU with anyone, we are not friends, friends, kind of like ...

          That’s for sure, I don’t count among your friends
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 10 November 2017 21: 41 New
              +5
              Quote: Alexey Pishenkov
              It’s a pity that Churchill and Halder died, otherwise you could have argued with them too

              If you read both, you would know that they confirm my point of view, not yours. But you are clearly not even descended to the six-volume Second World War descendant of the Dukes of Marlborough. And he writes about the pre-war policy of the USSR in a completely different way than you do, and constantly indicates that the actions of the USSR in the period 1939-41 are a consequence of the completely inadequate policy of England and France.
        2. Setrac
          Setrac 10 November 2017 22: 58 New
          +5
          Quote: Alexey Pishenkov
          lying and embellishment of history is a disservice to pseudo-patriots of their country

          Crap all these your arguments, ALL countries of the world have written a new story for themselves, beautiful, false and do not bother, and only for some reason we have to write our story with shit?
          Quote: Alexey Pishenkov
          and, of course, help her opponents to denigrate and discredit.

          How? You are trying to tighten your eyes on oppa.
          1. The comment was deleted.
        3. Grim Reaper
          Grim Reaper 11 November 2017 00: 38 New
          +5
          Quote: Alexey Pishenkov
          ... you were so struck by the classification and the name of the war that the main topic was not understood - lying and embellishing history is a disservice to pseudo-patriots in your country and, of course, helping its opponents to denigrate and discredit.
          I do not impose an opinion on the name of the war and do not pass on YOU with anyone, we are not friends, friends, kind of like ...
          My article and answer concerned the USSR and the Great Patriotic War, so what about the US Army here? I don’t understand. And the fact that the distortion of history is generally a standard thing throughout the world, no one argues, was just discussed in the article of the USSR ...
          If you are interested about the story and what I write about it, I recommend visiting any normal bookstore and familiarizing yourself with my writings on this subject ...


          Alexei! Everything is very simple. As I already wrote. I repeat. We won! And therefore we have every right to write our own story.

          Who are the heroes?
          Soldiers of the victorious side!
          And the loser?
          Fooled at best
          his government ....
          (C) Terry Pratchett.

          Questions?
          1. The comment was deleted.
      4. Glory1974
        Glory1974 10 November 2017 22: 16 New
        +4
        If you're an eccentric, EVEN YOU are unable to figure it out - what kind of story do you undertake to write about?

        Thanks, well said. I support you at 100%
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 11 November 2017 17: 22 New
          +1
          And thank you! drinks
    5. Cossack 471
      Cossack 471 10 November 2017 21: 05 New
      +6
      Americans cleaned their territory of Indians and do not suffer about this. Frenchmen celebrate prison day. the English put the Chinese on drugs. millions died and nothing. And how frightening we must sprinkle ash on our heads. Our story is ours. Oh, what it is. no worse than others. We have nothing to be ashamed of
    6. Setrac
      Setrac 10 November 2017 22: 34 New
      +3
      Quote: Alexey Pishenkov
      The problem is that we ourselves are the distortion (that is, the USSR)

      You have a mistake here, you must write Czechoslovakia correctly, you are not our man, not ours.
      1. The comment was deleted.
    7. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter 11 November 2017 03: 18 New
      +5
      Quote: Alexey Pishenkov
      No war can do without dirt, meanness, betrayal, cruelty and simply stupid mistakes and unnecessary victims, and all parties involved (

      You, dear, have bitten a bit ....
      Remember, the winner always writes the truth about the war!
      And why and who needs the prada about what cowards my grandfather burned in a tank near Kursk, and my second grandfather died the death of the brave near Berlin on April 26, 1945!
      Since childhood, I was brought up by a cousin of my grandfather, an attack pilot, who started the war in July 41st and ended in Berlin, but he lost his eye and had no children because he was wounded in the groin area.
      But he succeeded in flying at least on Po-2 in the mail from January 45th.
      It was he who instilled in me a love of aviation, and when I “didn’t enter,” he urgently sent me to Uncle Vasya’s troops!) Do you really need the 40th Army?
      I think not, as long as we are still alive and everyone will tear their throats for their heroism, but how it really looked.
      And our grandfathers and their dust is better not to touch, they have long been ANGELS!
      but deal with yourself, so this is the first thing
  5. Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 10 November 2017 18: 23 New
    +1
    As has been discussed more than once.
    First you need to see the irretrievable military losses from demographic losses and to compare the military art of the reverses only on the basis of military losses.
    Irrevocable military losses should be considered: those who died from all causes, were captured during the fighting and during the surrender of the military personnel of the parties. Since the surrender of one of the parties is the extreme result of military action.
    So the German and their satellite irretrievable losses are all the mobilization of military personnel with the exception of demobilization for the needs of the economy.
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 10 November 2017 18: 37 New
      +3
      So they still blame the Soviet Union for the Germans atrocities-Natsik people mowed-burned, and our grandfathers are to blame for the losses ..and with prisoners the same madhouse ...
  6. Eurodav
    Eurodav 10 November 2017 22: 21 New
    +2
    Author, you are sick!
    "... Which of us is well versed in such purely military terms as the army, division, corps? Who can, without google, name their strength? I’m sure, units ..."
    This is VO and people here understand such trifles, the question is, why did you get here?
  7. Grim Reaper
    Grim Reaper 11 November 2017 00: 51 New
    +1
    Quote: Alexey Pishenkov

    If you are interested about the story and what I write about it, I recommend visiting any normal bookstore and familiarizing yourself with my writings on this subject ...

    SW Alexei. For many years, like any normal bookstore, it’s located on the root tracker and if you like the book, the reader goes to the author’s site and transfers the money. However, technology.
    Well, if you didn’t like it ...
    There will be time to come, look.
  8. demiurg
    demiurg 11 November 2017 06: 20 New
    +3
    Why is anyone so much puffed by the victory of the USSR in 45? Every second mention of the USSR in the Second World War, is it Kharkov, Vyazma, the summer of 41 years? Why does no one want to remember the assault on Berlin, the liberation of Belarus (namely Belarus, it became Belarus after 91 years), Balaton?
    1. badens1111
      badens1111 11 November 2017 20: 12 New
      0
      Quote: demiurg
      Why does no one want to remember the assault on Berlin, the liberation of Belarus (namely Belarus, it became Belarus after 91 years), Balaton?

      Teaches those who have prepared-
      Quote: demiurg
      Kharkov, Vyazma, summer 41 years
  9. turbris
    turbris 11 November 2017 22: 09 New
    +1
    I think that the time has come, it is necessary to declassify all archives and on their basis to analyze the history of the Second World War, without politics, based only on archival data. Each conclusion must be confirmed by an appropriate document, maybe then there will be less than any speculation for the sake of politicians.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 14 November 2017 08: 36 New
      0
      Of course! But they are closed to the mass user until 2045. Until now, for example, the data on the specific composition of criminal offenses that the soldiers and officers of the Red Army committed during the Second World War have not been declassified, although the total number is known. And therefore it is impossible to repulse the allegations of rape of 2 million Germans. You can read Stalin’s correspondence with Churchill, but you can’t transcripts of his conversations with Patriarch Alexy !!!
  10. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 13 November 2017 17: 49 New
    0

    In response to lies and lies ...
  11. dimann271
    dimann271 13 November 2017 20: 38 New
    +1
    Again, perhaps, to reach Berlin? Don’t worry, WE will go further! Who did not hide, WE are not to blame!
  12. kalibr
    kalibr 14 November 2017 08: 33 New
    0
    Disgusting article! There is nothing ... nothing! Today it’s not enough to say - "they are bad." It is necessary to indicate specifically where, on which page, in the work of which author this or that distortion of reality is allowed. That's how to "shoot at the squares" is about nothing. Today in the West there is a mass of books on specific battles - for example, the Battle of Stalingrad, the Battle of Kursk, there is a book "Soviet Marines against the German" (!), "In memory of the Soviet sniper ..." (I forgot which one, but the name itself was engraved in memory - "In memory of the Soviet sniper ...".) The last book was published in England and the author is an Englishman. Now, if the author "did not crush the toad," and did not try to "cut the dough" in an easy way, he would have taken a couple of books, read and specifically pointed out errors and rigging of facts. That would be valuable. It could have been published “there” and said, what are you, buddy, lying like a dog ?! But no - "did not read, but condemn." Baby talk thickly seasoned with patriotic verbiage. We have already passed this in the USSR. Then the 91st happened ...
  13. kalibr
    kalibr 14 November 2017 08: 42 New
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    You will see a lot of “right-wing fighters” in the USA ... well, for example, telling the Americans how their young guys with experience of 5-8 hours of driving a tank burned in battles with fire, water and copper pipes of the Panzerwaffe in 1944?

    Imagine this in the book S. Pledges "Patton vs. Tiger"
  14. Asachi
    Asachi 15 November 2017 12: 14 New
    0
    Fine!!!