Military Review

A few words about the orders in the American army

143
At the end of 80's, A. Borovik’s book, How I Was a Soldier in the American Army, was popular. I will not repeat, anyone can find it and read. I remember that while reading it I was struck by hazing in the American army. She was legitimized. That is, a soldier who served a longer period had the right to command a young soldier. As they say, if the mafia cannot be defeated, you need to lead it. Since 80-s have passed the order of years. What has changed in this regard?


A few words about the orders in the American army


Under the arm came the autobiographical book of the American sniper Chris Kyle. Many have probably watched the Clint Eastwood film, shot on it. The solid American fighter "Sniper" shows how American soldiers are fighting for democracy in Iraq, including the "sea lion" sniper Chris Kyle, who during his service in the special forces of the US Navy killed about 160 people.

After reading the book, I discovered that the director did not show us everything. It seems that the American censor with a caring hand cut out everything that can cast a shadow on the very most armed forces in the world.

Of course, the hazing in the marine corps, and specifically in the special forces SEAL (seals), surprised me most of all. Here is what the author writes: “Newbies who fall into the squad are subjected to“ hazing ”... Young people do all the unpleasant work. They are constantly being tested. They constantly get it. This hazing takes many forms ... During training at the site, we usually ride the bus. Driving is always "young." But it's flowers. By and large, this is not even hazing. But to strangle (not naturally to death) the “young” at the moment when he drives a bus is already hazing. ”

Quote from the book: “Once we left the bar, all the old servicemen took their places at the end of the bus. I sat in front. For some time we were driving at a fairly decent speed, when suddenly I heard behind my back: “one-two-three-four, I declare a bus war to you” ... And they began to beat me. I got out of the car with broken ribs and a fingal under the eye (or two). While I was young, my lips broke into the blood a dozen times. ”

Somehow, after the training sessions, colleagues gathered in a room at the base. “Hey, young,” the chef told me — bring me a beer and another drink from the bus. I rushed for the bottles. When I came back everyone was sitting in the chairs. Only one remained unoccupied, and it stood in the middle. I did not attach any importance to this and sat down in it ... The Chief looked at me. Suddenly a serious expression on his face was replaced by a sly smile. And then they all pounced on me. A second later, I was lying on the floor. Then I was tied to a chair and my “kangaroo trial” began (a parody of justice) ... For every crime in which I was convicted - that is, for everything that the “judges” could recall, I had to drink a portion of whiskey and coke. At some point, I was stripped and put ice in my pants. I finally disconnected. Then they painted me with a can of paint, and with a marker they depicted a rabbit from Playboy on my chest and back ... At some point my friends were concerned about my health. Then I, completely naked, was tied with a scotch to a board, taken out into the street and left in the snow for a while - to regain consciousness. When I woke up, my teeth beat off such a tap from the cold that they almost flew out of my mouth. They gave me a saline solution to stop the symptoms of alcohol poisoning, and finally brought it back to the hotel without untie it from the board. ”

Amazing fun at the US Marine Corps. True, the participant himself does not call it entertainment, and he writes that this is hazing. Corporate solidarity does not allow to take it all out. As the author writes further, it is not accepted to contact the military police, and if you want to serve, you must endure.

After a certain period of service, the author has already become a senior "demobilizer", and he himself began to take part in such "entertainment". Here, several guys who had just completed their training in the SEAL program were seconded to their unit.

“We have shaved one poor fellow. Totally. And the head and eyebrows too. And then with the help of glue from the can stuck his hair back. When the procedure was in full swing, another “young” appeared at the entrance. Are you not going to come in here? one of our officers asked him. "Young" looked and saw that his friend was beaten. “Going. This is my friend". This is your funeral, said the officer. "Young" ran into the room. We respectfully treated the fact that he came to the rescue of a friend, and surrounded him with care. Then we shaved him too, tied them together with scotch and put them both into a corner. ”

These are the customs in the US Marine Corps and, in particular, in groups of fur seals. If they have such an attitude towards each other, what to say about the military personnel of other troops. Here the author writes how he had a fight on a business trip in an army town:
“The incident happened during the exercise, when we were in the army town. I absolutely understood that I had broken my arm about that guy, but there was no chance of getting medical aid in the medical unit. If I tried to do this, the doctors immediately determined that I was drunk and had a fight. Military police would not be long in coming. Therefore, we had to endure until the next day. Being already sober, I turned to the medical unit, where I said that I had broken my hand when I hit the jammed bolt on my rifle. While the doctors were busy with my hand, I noticed in the medical unit a guy who had stitches on his jaw. The next thing I remember was when the police officers interrogated me. ”

Well, the pinnacle of bullying, is bullying officers. I, frankly, did not come across this for the entire service in our army. Lines from the book: “We also mocked the young officer. He received almost everything the same as the rest, but he did not endure it very well. He didn’t like at all that some dirty contract soldiers could mistreat him. I had the opportunity to work with excellent officers, but more often than not the officers' knowledge that “low and dirty” does not go in any way in comparison with the experience of a soldier who has many years of fighting behind his shoulders. Hazing helps remind us who is who and what looks like when shit is thrown over a fan. It also shows people around what to expect from the "young". Think for yourself who would you prefer to have behind you: the guy who came running to save his comrade, or an officer shedding tears for the reason that he was offended by dirty contract soldiers? Hazing are all "young", so they understand - not all the crap they know. In the case of an officer, she serves as a reminder that a dose of modesty will not hurt anyone. ”

But the author of the book describes the stay of the “sea lions” group on the aircraft carrier: “We were on board the aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk. During this period they had very serious problems. Several sailors, who were apparently members of street gangs in the past, constantly provoked violations of discipline. The commander of the ship called us to his place and told us what time the gangsters were doing in the gym. We went down to the simulator, the door was locked behind us, and we solved the “gangster” problem. ” This is probably the only American method to solve a gangster problem, in fact, by gangster means.

These are the "fighters for democracy throughout the world." Such relations in the army surprise me, to put it mildly. I also doubt that we have something similar in the sea or any other special forces. The author of the book treats this as something inevitable, a constant companion of military service. Somewhere trying to convey it with humor, somewhere to submit as a necessity, but in any case, this is clearly not what should be in the army team. I hope this article will be read on the Echo of Moscow, in the American Committee of Soldiers' Mothers and they will finally attend to the state of affairs with the rights of American soldiers.

By the way, the author of the book Chris Kyle, after serving in the army, organized a shooting club and taught everyone to shoot a rifle. A few years later he was shot dead in a shooting gallery by his colleague in Iraq. The reason for this is hazing or something else, история, like Clint Eastwood, is silent.
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  1. 210ox
    210ox 7 November 2017 05: 53
    +7
    And to sneeze at them .. Let this "All-metal shell" be with them at least round the clock.
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 7 November 2017 06: 00
      +8
      Quote: 210ox
      And to sneeze at them .. Let this "All-metal shell" be with them at least round the clock.

    2. Maki Avellevich
      Maki Avellevich 7 November 2017 08: 04
      14
      I don’t understand what is the point of purposefully humiliating a soldier? to get embittered humiliated ferret? such a soldier can and will be aggressively effective but will not go far in this.
      They’ll fight while the commander barks, and as soon as the soldier does not have a commander, there is no head.
      those who are humiliated show poor initiative, and when a battle is more than a carpet bombardment, oh how it is.
      nonsense.
      1. verner1967
        verner1967 7 November 2017 08: 40
        +6
        Quote: Maki Avellievich
        such a soldier can and will be aggressively effective but will not go far in this.
        They’ll fight while the commander barks, and as soon as the soldier does not have a commander, there is no head.

        If you draw parallels based on your findings, it turns out that a Soviet (Russian) soldier will fight while his "grandfather" barks. But the war in Afghanistan and Chechnya has shown that this is not so. Or will you deny bullying in the sun? Most likely it’s just a check for “lice” (which officers, by the way, pass), and the article explicitly says so. I don’t know whether this is good or bad, but if it has been practiced for more than one decade, then it probably gives its positive results
        1. CONTROL
          CONTROL 7 November 2017 10: 01
          20
          Quote: verner1967
          Or will you deny bullying in the sun? Most likely it’s just a check for “lice” (which officers, by the way, pass), and the article explicitly says so. I don’t know whether this is good or bad, but if it has been practiced for more than one decade, then probably gives its positive fruits

          ... gives, gives!
          Personally muzzled - already in civilian life, after the demobilization - "grandfathers" and "command"; and not only me - it got to the point that they changed their names, and even did plastic ...
          -----------------------------
          Violence for no reason - over "your" - has never led to anything "positive"! If you want to "let off steam" - go to the wrestling / boxing gym, play rugby ... well, in extreme cases - take part in a c-c, c-orgy ... where you don’t know, will you fuck or you ?. ..
          1. verner1967
            verner1967 7 November 2017 10: 27
            +7
            Quote: CONTROL
            Personally muzzle - already in civilian life, after the demobilization - "grandfathers" and "command"

            Did you serve in Dzerzhinka? But was there a little face in the army? I heard these stories, "after demobilization I am you" ... empty bazaars
            1. CONTROL
              CONTROL 7 November 2017 11: 21
              +2
              Quote: verner1967
              Did you serve in Dzerzhinka?
              ... empty bazaars

              In the current, by call!
              He was called up three times - for the first time as a soldier, and twice - as a reserve — an SS-sheep and a reserve officer, and in the fourth they wanted — yes age and health ... He was healthy, so the gobbles made me cautious, after all, the SS-sheep ; Yes, and the insult was more for "their" guys from the call (an aggravated sense of justice ...).
              As for the "empty bazaars" - rumors about me were creeping among the demobilization "co-workers": - one of them (being a cop in uniform) saw me on the tram - stood on the front landing, I on the back - urgently jumped out, obviously not at my stop ... he was still a bastard! I was cool unreasonably then ...
              ... then already - cooled down, did not begin to search ...
              1. AllXVahhaB
                AllXVahhaB 10 November 2017 13: 55
                0
                Quote: CONTROL
                As for the "empty bazaars" - rumors about me were creeping among the demobilization "co-workers": - one of them (being a cop in uniform) saw me on the tram - stood on the front landing, I on the back - urgently jumped out, obviously not at my stop ... he was still a bastard! I was cool unreasonably then ...

                wassat
          2. trahterist
            trahterist 7 November 2017 11: 18
            15
            Moreover, in the same Afghanistan, too zealous "grandfathers" perished under strange circumstances.
            This is not advertised, but it was the same, and in civilian life often “demobilize” people get home in a not very healthy state, I’ll notice this from my personal experience when a very mad sergeant was in intensive care, a coincidence, probably.
            Amuse yourself further with these 'empty talk'
            1. verner1967
              verner1967 7 November 2017 21: 49
              0
              Quote: trahterist
              and in peaceful life, often 'demobilized' people get home in an not very healthy state

              yeah, and the young ones are specially released with demobilization to settle accounts
              Quote: trahterist
              I’ll notice this from personal experience

              did you report these demobilization or did you yourself go on a demobilization?
              Quote: trahterist
              Amuse yourself further with these 'empty talk'

              I myself served as an emergency officer and then as an officer for 20 years, blah blah blah all this.
        2. would
          would 8 November 2017 00: 27
          +8
          But the war in Afghanistan and Chechnya has shown that this is not so.


          The war in Afghanistan and Chechnya is the war that even the “spirit” has a machine gun in its hands. And everyone wonderfully understands that this is in the part where instead of an automatic machine, he can humiliate him with a mop, and here first of all he can be very offended to put a couple of bullets at you, including in the heat of battle in the back. And then who will deal with whom? Even more intelligent people understand that you don’t even have to shoot in the back, at some point you need to not notice anything with the same effect. Especially “fun” if you set up a whole unit against yourself.

          Therefore, in hostilities that same frantic bullying does not happen, but at the same time there is not one story as those who excessively opened their hands after regretting it. Or you can recall the memoirs of General Lebed in which it is directly written how, after insults from the airborne assault, the infantry took up arms and the paratroopers had to be literally saved. And there was a dismantling of not units with one grandfather, but entire units.
          1. verner1967
            verner1967 8 November 2017 17: 53
            0
            Quote: rait
            Therefore, in hostilities the same frantic hazing does not happen,

            you know, this is all the theory, when I wrote a term paper on the psychological training of a fighter, I took a brochure in the "secret" library with an overview about the moral and political condition of the SA in Afghanistan .... I myself served urgently, but I’ve read such a thing .... not it is clear that there would be someone afraid of someone. After all, a muzzled “spirit” may, in peacetime, while preparing or on guard, sew someone or at a shooting range (as it was already), there would be a desire.
            1. would
              would 9 November 2017 02: 50
              0
              So those who served in Chechnya and Afghanistan, as I understand theorists. Because they say that. The fact that everything was not perfect there by itself, therefore, a lot was written in the brochure, but compared to the peaceful part, hazing was much less.
              1. verner1967
                verner1967 9 November 2017 07: 47
                0
                Quote: rait
                So those who served in Chechnya and Afghanistan, as I understand theorists.

                you can not build on the stories of some kind of personalities. It’s just human psychology, especially based on our Russian “Avos will carry” so constructed. Here was one example, they put video cameras in the barracks, and everyone knew about it. The first three or four days went like silk. Then, gradually (after all, there was no immediate reaction), everything returned to normal. I mean, until one really bangs the other for humiliation, everyone will act like everywhere else. And a more specific example, we have one fighter in the unit hanged himself, his three offenders in two weeks !!! planted and what, hazing is over? Yeah ...
      2. raw174
        raw174 7 November 2017 08: 57
        +5
        Quote: Maki Avellievich
        I don’t understand what is the point of purposefully humiliating a soldier?

        Large exclusively male team, boredom! This is one of the entertainments! ... And then, beatings - not humiliation, shaved? This is more of a joke, basically harmless, then they laugh together ...
        1. bandabas
          bandabas 7 November 2017 11: 45
          +6
          As a rule, whoever “jokes” more, he subsequently “jokes” with others to a greater extent. And with you, "harmless", "pranksters" then laughed together?
          1. raw174
            raw174 7 November 2017 12: 25
            +6
            Quote: bandabas
            And with you, "harmless", "pranksters" then laughed together?

            I served after the academy, i.e. had a higher, had a formed gray matter. In my company, hazing was normal, in the sense that there was no lawlessness, meaningless beatings, and for the "shoals" they pumped, well, they could beat it, but within reason. I didn’t particularly stand out from my appeal, they periodically pumped me and pressed a couple of times, but before leaving with the demobilization we sat behind the straw, talked, laughed, everything was human. Itself did not suffer from this, I was not interested in these traditions ... In general, many of us were after universities, maybe because of this there was no cruelty ...
            1. Nikolaevich I
              Nikolaevich I 7 November 2017 16: 59
              +3
              When I was "young" in the army, I knew "hazing" .. recourse .... but the old-timers did not commit atrocities ... it was bearable. But when we became "old people" (our call), then generally ... almost no "other", young ones, (well, sometimes. ..to avoid “borzoi” ... otherwise, it came to us from the officers for “dismissing” the young ,,!). But here it is “interesting”! Those of the “young” who ran at full speed complaining about us to the commander, the political leader, then became the hardest “pheasants, old people” and began to spread rot on the “young” from subsequent calls!
            2. wasps
              wasps 10 November 2017 14: 07
              0
              similarly!
        2. Glory1974
          7 November 2017 15: 19
          +6
          Large exclusively male team, boredom!

          There is a law in the army: If a soldier has his own time, wait for trouble. If you barely crawl to the pillow, then there is no time to engage in nonsense.
          And then, beatings - not humiliation, shaved? This is more of a joke, basically harmless, then they laugh together ...

          There is the concept of "hazing" - submission to the oldest in age, length of service, experience.
          But many people forget about the legal definition of "hazing" - that is, those that are not spelled out in the charter. And this is a violation of the law.
          If you were shaved, beaten, would you laugh?
          And there are plenty of jokes in our army team, and there are innocuous ones. And there are those for which the "pranksters" received real terms. For such as in the article, the term without any options.
          1. 406ppm2gv
            406ppm2gv 7 November 2017 21: 57
            +1
            If you barely crawl to the pillow, then there’s no time to engage in nonsense .- DFor me it was Kovrov training.
      3. brn521
        brn521 7 November 2017 09: 30
        +4
        Quote: Maki Avellievich
        I don’t understand what is the point of purposefully humiliating a soldier? to get embittered humiliated ferret?

        To format an ordinary layman into a character capable of straying into groups that effectively operate in particularly difficult or specific conditions. Humiliated ferrets are eliminated. And for the rest, a peculiar switch appears in the head, translating them into the "frostbite" mode, which also works after the demobilization.
        Quote: Maki Avellievich
        They’ll fight while the commander barks, and as soon as the soldier does not have a commander, there is no head.

        System costs. All the same, it’s not about civil defense, where the main task is to protect your family and your country. And about the mercenaries who have to carry out any task, while not really bothering to preserve their own lives, and even more so being in a legal field. The USSR, by the way, in the Case of Afghanistan tried to save money, it turned out rubbish. I still remember how they didn’t want to hire former Afghans. For a simple reason. To some Airborne Forces officer who has passed Afghanistan, the director, the jaw is turned to one side as there is nothing to do. Organized crime is Afghans. Drugs are again Afghans, both consumers and distributors.
        1. would
          would 8 November 2017 03: 42
          +6
          To format an ordinary layman into a character capable of straying into groups that effectively operate in particularly difficult or specific conditions.


          This is a very interesting opinion when it is stated that humiliation which, according to psychiatry, is inherently destructive of a person’s personality and is capable of only causing mental disorders leads to an increase in the effectiveness of actions in a group. Not a feeling of elbow, not even mutual responsibility or other methods of rallying a team, but humiliation. Moreover, humiliation leading to bitterness in relation to the humiliator ... that is, it turns out, in your opinion, out of hatred for the one who humiliated me ... will I work more effectively with him in the group? Wanting revenge on him? However. So stupid infinite hazing no one has justified.

          Actually a well-known example of "effective actions in a group"



          That is, as I understand it, in your opinion, the lack of initiative and the desire to protect a group member, complete indifference and the lack of a group in your opinion are “effective actions in a group in especially difficult or specific conditions”? In reality, if there was at least a real group here, then these grandfathers would lie and grunt in their blood in a few seconds. But right in reality, they simply wouldn’t do it like that, because in my experience such cowardly and adaptable ones. Where it is necessary to fawn and feet lick, where they can scoff. Because one member of the group will not allow to offend another member of the group and so on the list. He gave to the chest from one leg to one, became an enemy for everyone. He gave into the chest one small soldier, became an enemy for forty more, for example, like him. And no matter how cool this grandfather was, there will be more “spirits”. Actually, this is exactly what happens in the same Caucasians in the army, without such humiliation, and on the basis of ethnic affinity, they form a group that is able to effectively act against unbroken Russian units.

          But in the video, by the very humiliations that you so praise, the group was deliberately destroyed so that grandfathers could continue to do whatever they wanted. The initiative and "frostbite" is killed, and everyone takes a hit, being clearly convinced that not one of the neighbors will intercede for him. That's because the grandfathers want to have power, and for this it is necessary that none of those over whom they rule do not try to challenge this power. Moreover, I did not get into groups for this purpose.
          1. brn521
            brn521 8 November 2017 11: 26
            0
            Quote: rait
            This is a very interesting opinion when it is stated that humiliation which, according to psychiatry, is inherently destructive in relation to a person’s personality

            That’s how they break the personality, so that then, being in the new conditions, it is formatted in a new way. Through exertion, pain and suffering. These are the basics of psychology. Human social development never goes smoothly. There are several crises dedicated to a certain age through which everyone goes. Therefore, this is an established practice: if you want to really change a person, arrange a crisis for him. As the regular army appeared, formed at the call of anyone, so this thing went. Tough discipline, unjust nit-picking, unquestioning obedience, beatings and participation in them. Recall the orders in the army of the Republic of Ingushetia. This was not some tyranny, but a widespread practice. From recruits, essentially slaves in state ownership, troops were formed that were able to march in full growth, not paying attention to shelling and massive losses. And that was exactly what the army was at that time.
            Or a sailing fleet, even a merchant fleet, is an even more vivid example. Constant threat to life, hard work, primitive life, lack of law enforcement forces. As a result, what has formed has formed. The rest is eliminated.
            Quote: rait
            and is only capable of causing mental disorders

            And that too. Therefore, it is stupid to try to pass through a similar meat grinder all citizens indiscriminately. One thing to teach to fight. In normal countries they do so. Another is to turn a citizen into an unquestioningly obedient and not reasoning soldier, for whom serious military operations will no longer be a shock. These are already contract soldiers. By personal preference or from specific social strata.
            Quote: rait
            Actually a well-known example of "effective actions in a group"

            No, there is clearly a discipline problem. Started by chance, as a result of criminally cultivated stupidity. And on a large scale.
            Quote: rait
            In reality, if there was at least a real group here, then these grandfathers would lie and grunt in their blood in a few seconds.

            So the fact of the matter is that the only organized group in this scenario is grandfathers. Even if there are about a dozen new arrivals, they cannot be pulled against everyone else. Because everyone else has already been redone and drawn in. Well, again, mass education. The intelligentsia is meat that is not able to somehow organize itself and protect itself. Unlike yard.
            1. would
              would 8 November 2017 12: 28
              +3
              That’s how they break the personality, so that then, being in the new conditions, it is formatted in a new way. Through exertion, pain and suffering. These are the basics of psychology.


              These are the basics of complete professional unsuitability as a psychiatrist, psychotherapist, at worst a psychologist. The very “personality breaking”, the direct present ends with a severe mental state that can develop into a permanent mental disorder. These are the basics of psychiatry. Therefore, in no structure where combat-ready people are required do not break a person, and lately, not without reason, they have been treated very carefully. Even in the army. Carefully does not mean stroking the head and do not load. They load and how, punish and how, but at the same time they treat the person with care and no one can afford how to mock the fighter in the video. The fighter wonderfully understands how he needs to behave so as not to be punished, he has the concept of a framework while during infinite hazing they do not exist. They may mock you no matter what. Nobody wants to break their personality now, and then get a fighter with a typical consequence in the form of anxiety disorder. This is a classic consequence of systematic bullying and humiliation, an aggressive environment as such. Particularly sensitive real PTSD can grab. Right here is the real "Chechen syndrome." Few people know, but he is systematically diagnosed in people who were beaten in childhood or who were bullied in school. Not everyone, few people, usually the most nervously unstable, but diagnosed.

              In general, it is worth recalling the famous experiment with electric current. When the dogs were locked in a cage and started to be shocked, she first tried to run away. But when this happened again and again, she eventually lay down and lay blankly waiting for a new discharge. This is the same apathy that very often occurs in an aggressive environment when a person does not have the opportunity to influence his condition. He simply ceases to do anything and try to change, goes into himself as much as possible. Even after the traumatic episode is over. This is called "learned helplessness."

              Age-related crises generally do not relate to the topic of the external destructive impact on the personality that you approve of here.

              Recall the orders in the army of the Republic of Ingushetia. This was not some tyranny, but a widespread practice. From recruits, essentially slaves in state ownership, troops were formed that were able to march in full growth, not paying attention to shelling and massive losses.


              Why, there, let’s remember the Middle Ages. The army of the Republic of Ingushetia, by the way, was extremely ineffective, including because of this, and the same fleet lost in Russian-Japanese, including because all the sailors knew how to obey. He could not at least somehow replace the deceased officer, did not have his own initiative, and at the death of the officer, the combat efficiency of the ship not only drastically decreased, but essentially became near-zero. That is precisely why the army of the Republic of Ingushetia is not, and this is precisely why soldiers and so on graduated from the officers during the revolution.

              Although if you want to lose the war without even starting it, then of course an attempt to repeat an ineffective and non-modern army will perfectly fulfill this task.

              No, there is clearly a discipline problem. Started by chance, as a result of criminally cultivated stupidity. And on a large scale.


              So let's clarify ... what do you mean is hazing? And then I apparently do not really understand.

              So the fact of the matter is that the only organized group in this scenario is grandfathers. Even if there are about a dozen new arrivals, they cannot be pulled against everyone else. Because everyone else has already been redone and drawn in. Well, again, mass education. The intelligentsia is meat that is not able to somehow organize itself and protect itself. Unlike yard.


              That is, you think it is absolutely normal that of the 40 people, only two are combat-ready and are a group? And the rest, if they kill the first, you just have to give weapons? And if there is no command that will push them to just sit down and sit? But.

              As for the intelligentsia, it is immediately clear that you do not know what you are talking about. The very intelligentsia in history has organized more than once and fought back, and those same courtyards often could not organize. The question of self-organization weakly depends on which class you classify the group of individuals.
              1. brn521
                brn521 8 November 2017 15: 53
                +1
                Quote: rait
                These are the basics of complete professional unsuitability as a psychiatrist

                A character who volunteered in the front ranks of Landsknechts or pikemen. In a serious mess, the suicide bomber is definitely. And such must be scored at least a quarter of the total composition. What will the psychiatrist say about such volunteers? Is this the norm?
                Quote: rait
                Therefore, in no structure where combat-ready people are required do not break a person, and lately, not without reason, they have been treated very carefully.

                Efficient people are one thing. They are just hard workers whose work involves a certain risk. Another thing is suicide bombers. Which in a clash will definitely suffer losses and no matter what they must fulfill the task. And teenage nonsense and faith in their immortality will not work here - such characters can at any moment become aware of the realities and break down.
                Quote: rait
                So let's clarify ... what do you mean is hazing? And then I apparently do not really understand.

                Previously, it was a transfer of experience to recruits from senior employees. Now this is a form of hazing, causing serious damage to the effectiveness of the army. Where the state spits on citizens, organized crime groups appear.
                Did I initially say anything about hazing? No. But unjust punishments, petty nit-picking, setting impossible tasks - this is the standard that was millennia ago and is now. A person is knocked out from under his feet so that he begins to rebuild and quickly absorb new things. Show that he is stupid and helpless, no matter who he was before, so he must adapt and learn again. If you become a soldier, you are no longer a citizen. You have to live in the army, think in the army, and all that was in the civilian goes nowhere. Of you make a new person. By the standards of the citizen turn into a psycho, because you will have to sacrifice health and life, your own or others, no matter for what.
                Quote: rait
                A fighter understands wonderfully how he needs to behave so as not to be punished

                First he needs to become a fighter. Other tasks, different psychology, other values. From the sky it all does not fall.
                Quote: rait
                Particularly sensitive real PTSD can grab.

                Not for long. Then he retracts, and then he himself teaches recruits. Although in fact, the most sensitive should be screened out by the medical board.
                Quote: rait
                This is called "learned helplessness."

                This is if you seek precisely this state. It's about the initial period of "education".
                Quote: rait
                Age-related crises generally do not relate to the topic of the external destructive impact on the personality that you approve of here.

                I do not approve of it. Moreover, I hate it, for it’s that neurotic too. I just do not see any alternatives. Everywhere you go, there was something like that everywhere. Or assign two sergeants to each soldier and develop a very complex educational system with an individual approach. At the same time, such a character will still lie on the embrasure with a breast only with a 50/50 chance, and even then under chemistry. Or set the required shape and knock out the soil from under your feet.
                Quote: rait
                Why, there, let’s remember the Middle Ages.

                Of course we recall. There, the required qualities were exactly the same as now, and in a more concentrated form.
                Quote: rait
                RI army by the way was extremely ineffective

                A highly controversial statement.
                Quote: rait
                the same fleet lost in Russian-Japanese

                It's about the merchant sailing fleet in general. When the crew of a sailboat could raise a rebellion, throw the captain overboard, share goods and money, and sink the ship somewhere. And nothing, coped.
                Quote: rait
                That is, you think it is absolutely normal that out of 40 people, only two are combat-ready and are a group?

                No, but what does it have to do with it? For example, who in his fists forced push-ups on fists on chopped rubble, leaving bloody spots? The bosses raised or grandfathers? Rightfully or not? Could be needed both this and that. In the same way, it is widely believed that soldiers who periodically do not beat each other's faces do not have a fighting spirit.
                Quote: rait
                As for the intelligentsia, it is immediately clear that you do not know what you are talking about. The very intelligentsia in history has organized more than once and rebuffed

                Where is she now? I about those who grew up in comfortable apartments, believe in all sorts of rubbish, they say a lot, but when it comes to a fight, they suddenly evaporate somewhere. So some unfortunate organized criminal group of six snouts and keeps a whole microdistrict under it.
                1. would
                  would 9 November 2017 02: 49
                  0
                  A character who volunteered in the front ranks of Landsknechts or pikemen.


                  In the 21st century, pikemen are used ?!

                  Not for long. Then he retracts, and then he himself teaches recruits.


                  Congratulations, you showed that you don’t understand what is at stake and it’s pointless to talk to you. You should at least read the literature before writing. PTSD is just the same for a long time and for a very long time, including often without the possibility of a complete cure. That is why those who underwent therapy after Afghanistan and Chechnya often have typical problems, gastrointestinal problems with full physical health, heart problems with the same perfect health, problems with social interaction and the most important feeling that all this is not real. That you lived in the war, but not here. That is why such people literally travel through wars. And what psychiatry still does not know about doing this, modern therapy cannot guarantee to cure a person with a PTSD patient.

                  There, the required qualities were exactly the same as now, and in a more concentrated form.


                  However! That is, right now the fighter does NOT require initiative, accountability (the armies of the Middle Ages were not controlled by the commanders), discipline (the same thing, it was almost impossible to achieve the execution of the order without a personal presence, as an example of the massacre in Jerusalem in 1099 when the crusaders killed even those who held in hands guard banners of their commanders)? No, you just have no idea what happened in the Middle Ages. Requirements even for a knight in the Middle Ages were much milder than now for a fighter, feudal fragmentation and low organization generally affected what affected the organization of the troops.

                  No, but what does it have to do with it?


                  Well, you yourself wrote that these very grandfathers are a group and that’s good!

                  A highly controversial statement.


                  So you want to say that the soldiers rebelled in the revolution just like that, from a good life and discipline?

                  Where is she now? I about those who grew up in comfortable apartments, believe in all sorts of rubbish, they say a lot, but when it comes to a fight, they suddenly evaporate somewhere. So some unfortunate organized criminal group of six snouts and keeps a whole microdistrict under it.


                  And she didn’t go anywhere. I wonderfully know many cases where the very same organized crime group was made up of the very same intellectuals, when the very same organized crime group was beaten by intellectuals, and so on.
                  https://www.ural.kp.ru/daily/26639/3658521/

                  Speaking of evaporation. I saw enough gopniks who, when detained, begin to testify against each other, run away at the first opportunity to get a snout, write a statement for the victim. Yard, absolutely yard.
                  1. brn521
                    brn521 9 November 2017 12: 41
                    +2
                    Quote: rait
                    In the 21st century, pikemen are used ?!

                    in the 21st century they use an analogue of pikemen. In the alleged large-scale conflict, there are specific calculations of which unit it is supposed to stretch before it is destroyed.
                    Quote: rait
                    Congratulations, you showed that you don’t understand what is at stake and it’s pointless to talk with you ....

                    Therefore, PTSD occurs quite rarely. Or when the differences in the environment are too large. Or, when a particular character has insufficiently effective mechanisms for protecting the psyche. Those same prisoner of war camps alone normally passed. And others have been tormented by psychosomatics all their lives.
                    Quote: rait
                    That you lived in the war, but not here.

                    All in a heap. If I develop PTSD regarding military service, then I will have nightmares for a long time, as they bring me the summons again. You can also add a convulsive and inconclusive search for a military card in a dream. Especially when you are looking for a warrior, but you find an attributed certificate. What is the desire back? The exact opposite things. Helplessness and horror.
                    And the desire to return to the barracks or back to war is evidence of a successfully transformed psyche for the desired task.
                    Quote: rait
                    armies of the Middle Ages were not controlled by commanders

                    These were not armies, but rabble. The clash of such armies was rarely a full-fledged war. From the strength of 5% of the composition was lost in battle, the rest were finished already during the flight. The army is distinguished by discipline and a clear hierarchy.
                    Quote: rait
                    it was almost impossible to get an order executed without a personal presence

                    Now the same thing.
                    Quote: rait
                    even those who held the guard banners of their commanders were killed

                    You have very poor practical knowledge. And now they would have killed. This is a known issue in serious clashes. For a soldier to effectively kill is already a serious achievement. An even greater achievement is not to kill everyone in a row. This officer should be nearby and think about what was needed and what wasn’t, and give the command to selected soldiers - corporals / sergeants in time, so that they would slap the will of the command to everyone else. Recall at least the standard problem for all recruits - saving ammo. In the WWII and WWII, the entire rifle stock released into milk at the beginning of the battle. In Afghanistan, the queue for a half-store. The usual thing. Even such simple things are driven in by long trainings, and that does not always help. And here is something incomprehensible: do not kill someone specific, be he even with some familiarity, even in a clownish outfit. This task is not for the soldiers, but for some special forces. Now, if it will be a naked woman - yes, it will shock the soldier to the giblets. Because the soldier has the simplest logic, the simplest psyche and the simplest needs. How to disable an airborne company? Distract their command with something, and in the meantime put a few boxes of vodka to this company. The result is guaranteed. Nevertheless, if we need troops, and not a mob of rabble, we will have to indiscriminately make such "unicellular" out of all the draftees. Therefore, as soon as it turns out to assemble a system that is sufficiently stable in combat conditions.
                    Quote: rait
                    initiative

                    Heresy. Did you serve in the army? Initiative and mess are almost synonymous. The initiative is shown only by order. Because how few people are capable of taking the right initiative in combat conditions. Such soldiers become corporal and sergeants.
                    Quote: rait
                    Well, you yourself wrote that these very grandfathers are a group and that’s good!

                    Where? Give proof. On your part, it was a particular video and the possibility of new arrivals to withstand the prevailing conditions. I have not been 18 years old for a long time and I have been cured of the illusions from the series that "here we are, right men, get together and finally kick our asses out of that gang." Nonsense. If we are talking about beating faces, then you need to take with you not these "right men" who live on the couch and believe in fairy tales, but specific thugs, in fact, a different gang. Because it was the case, I already felt how peppy clatter is heard behind my back and there is no one left from intelligent screaming balabol when it really starts to smell fried. Thank you, there was a really specific man who resolved, I thought I would have to take a knife, and this is clearly a deadline, regardless of the outcome. Here is such nonsense. In a real mess, you can rely only on the one who maybe you cleaned your face yesterday. And the rest are not fighters, but rams. No, of course it may be lucky and the intelligentsia will select the right one. The chance is 1 in 1000.
                    Quote: rait
                    And she didn’t go anywhere. I wonderfully know many cases where the very same organized crime group was made up of the very same intellectuals, when the very same organized crime group was beaten by intellectuals, and so on.
                    https://www.ural.kp.ru/daily/26639/3658521/

                    Single examples from the media.? I really saw the opposite. As the gopniks shook the market and they had nothing for it. Nothing at all. Gopnik. Which in the organized crime group even for the role of sixes would not have taken.
                    Quote: rait
                    I saw enough gopniks who, when detained, begin to testify against each other

                    Well yes. But the detention is far from being carried out by intellectuals. And they are interrogating too.
                    1. would
                      would 9 November 2017 14: 38
                      0
                      in the 21st century they use an analogue of pikemen. In the alleged large-scale conflict, there are specific calculations of which unit it is supposed to stretch before it is destroyed.


                      So pikemen or combat units? Because the former are only required to stand ahead with a lance, and from the latter much more. And that is why a tank platoon lives much longer than a hypothetical pikeer who will not even be taken into account.

                      All in a heap. If I develop PTSD regarding military service, then I will have nightmares for a long time, as they bring me the summons again. You can also add a convulsive and inconclusive search for a military card in a dream. Especially when you are looking for a warrior, but you find an attributed certificate. What is the desire back? The exact opposite things. Helplessness and horror.

                      And the desire to return to the barracks or back to war is evidence of a successfully transformed psyche for the desired task.


                      Just yet again, show complete ignorance of the issue. The very "transformation of the psyche for the desired task" is the PSTR. When an American who has passed Afghanistan in horror travels around a stone (because he is taught that it can be a land mine) it’s PSTR, when you jump up from the sound of cars and look for your AK, it is PSTR and so on. Difficulties in embedding back into civil society is one of the symptoms, one of the manifestations of the PSTD. Any psychiatrist who worked with war veterans will tell you this, in fact this is one of the main problems. In my experience, it is often much more important than psychosomatics.

                      These were not armies, but rabble. The clash of such armies was rarely a full-fledged war. From the strength of 5% of the composition was lost in battle, the rest were finished already during the flight. The army is distinguished by discipline and a clear hierarchy.


                      So you still decide for yourself. Either "it was rabble," or "The qualities required there were exactly the same as they are now, and in a more concentrated form."

                      Now the same thing.


                      Show complete ignorance of the issue and the fact that even the army did not serve. This is the basics. Now the exact opposite is true and the whole system is built so that the order must be executed without control by the person who gave it. Otherwise, the army as a structure is simply impossible.

                      And now they would have killed. This is a known issue in serious clashes.


                      You show again that you did not serve or even read about the military conflicts of our time. In reality, no one in their right mind and sober memory would have killed a peaceful man, simply because he was a peaceful man, and it’s impossible to think about killing a group of people in respect of whom a direct protective command order was received. The reason for this is a change in attitude towards human life and the transformation of the image of the enemy, and the very system has changed. And if there will be nothing for the crusader for killing the unfaithful, then now everyone on the list will go in all severity.

                      Nevertheless, if we need troops, and not a mob of rabble, we will have to indiscriminately make such "unicellular" out of all the draftees.


                      This is if you need a herd of stupid and uncontrolled militants, you will make such unicellular ones that "multicellular" will take out two times. Just because real combat requires intelligence, high knowledge of military science and discipline. And your unicellular rabble does not have anything listed, even according to your words they are not able to distinguish between their own and others and will kill everyone who they meet. This, incidentally, is a very good scenario for creating a guerrilla movement in an occupied country, the population itself will rise up against such a rabble.

                      Heresy. Did you serve in the army? Initiative and mess are almost synonymous. The initiative is shown only by order.


                      So, if you served, you would read books such as the "charter." In particular, the combat charter where the following is written

                      Success is always on the side of those who dare in battle, constantly showing creativity, reasonable initiativedictates his will to the enemy.

                      The initiative in battle is to strive in any setting, without waiting for directions, find the best way to complete the task, in making a bold decision and firmly implementing it.

                      The reproach deserves not the one who, in an effort to destroy the enemy did not achieve his goal, but the one who showed inaction, indecision and did not use all the possibilities to accomplish the task.

                      Combat Charter of the Airborne Forces of 1984, Chapter One, "Fundamentals of Combined Arms in the Rear of the Enemy"

                      Why I wrote it so I could write, but those who serve are already aware, and you won’t understand. Only now I remember with a kind word an 18-year-old man who, being proactive, became a battalion commander and saved a whole battalion. The Kingdom of heaven.

                      Single examples from the media.?


                      These are single examples for you, as my practice examples are multiple. And in them some courtyards were only screaming, and at the first danger (often imaginary) they scattered, and other intellectuals became real medieval berserkers. The converse is also true. And there’s nothing to talk about grouping. Just because in reality, and not in your fantasies, social status as such does not affect a person’s personal qualities. The same "core" is either there or not, regardless of what class he or his parents belong to.
                      1. brn521
                        brn521 10 November 2017 18: 07
                        0
                        Quote: rait
                        So pikemen or combat units?

                        In any situation, there is a specific person who must maintain his composure and clearly follow orders. Despite the fact that soon he will surely be killed or crippled.
                        Quote: rait
                        Because the first ones are only required to stand forward with a lance

                        No comment.
                        Quote: rait
                        When an American past Afghanistan in horror travels around a stone

                        Then he goes around your stones, then he seeks back to Afghanistan. At the same time, he has tachycardia, gastritis, high blood pressure and insomnia. Would decide whether or not, put everything in a heap.
                        It’s a normal reaction. A man waking up a minute before the alarm rings - from the same series. Some kind of rehabilitation is needed when this business really gets in the way.
                        Quote: rait
                        Difficulties in embedding back into civil society is one of the symptoms, one of the manifestations of the PSTD.

                        Normal adaptation to changing conditions. Disorder is when a stable pathology is formed. For example, a dog was bitten by a child in childhood, and then all his life at the sight of a dog or the sounds of a barking, he feels as if he was being nibbled again. Usually this is a completely normal reaction, characteristic of almost everyone: do not stand anywhere, otherwise it will fall. Illustration - mosquito bites. Hearing a squeak - skin sensitivity immediately worsens, sometimes it seems that you feel a bite. Although there are no mosquitoes at all, this is some kind of midge curling around the ear. When only in season - this is the norm. But if all year, then pathology.
                        Quote: rait
                        So you still decide for yourself. Either "it was rabble," or

                        I cited the example of pikemen as an example of military stamina and organization. In response, you give an example of any rabble who has neither discipline nor unity of command.
                        Quote: rait
                        In reality, now no one in their right mind and sober memory would kill a peaceful man

                        During the conduct of intense hostilities there is no talk of sound mind and sober memory. More precisely, they can be saved only by specially selected and trained people. Which you can’t save for the whole army.
                        Quote: rait
                        and it’s impossible to think about killing a group of persons in respect of which a direct protective order from the command was received

                        To do this, you have to drag the soldier for a long time and tediously to carry out such an order. So that the results of such a training do not wash out the waves of adrenaline and constant stress. But why is it needed? If in combat conditions soldiers are able to open or cease fire only by order, this is a serious achievement.
                        Quote: rait
                        Show again that you didn’t serve or even read about the military conflicts of our time

                        But I have the impression that I’m arguing with the inhabitant of the moon. Or to the kraynyak with a “jacket”.
                        Quote: rait
                        This is if you need a herd of stupid and uncontrolled militants, you will make such unicellular ones that "multicellular" will take out two times.

                        "Multicellular" - units. And "unicellular" - battalions. What is the use of military specialists if they are not provided with well-trained infantry?
                        Quote: rait
                        The initiative in battle is the desire in any situation, without waiting for instructions, to find the best way to accomplish the task, in making a bold decision and firmly implementing it

                        That's right, initiative is only within the framework of the task. And from the initiative brought from the citizen, weaned completely. The man then had to recover for a year or two, for example, to start again pestering people with unsolicited advice.
                        Quote: rait
                        Only now I remember with a kind word an 18-year-old man who, being proactive, became a battalion commander and saved a whole battalion.

                        In contrast, you can bring crowds of draftees, who for the manifestation of unsolicited initiative received on the neck. Or did the entire battalion consist of such battalions?
                        Quote: rait
                        These are single examples of you.

                        Which I felt from my own experience.
                        Quote: rait
                        Just because in reality, and not in your fantasies, social status as such does not affect a person’s personal qualities.

                        Lucky for you. Where did you live your life? if you kept so naive illusions? Here we have, for example, in the city there is a "pentagon". The hostels where the factory lived did not have time to acquire apartments. Crowding, poverty, single-parent families. And so it was mothballed at the end of perestroika. Previously, people received apartments, their category grew, their salaries increased, and it was these who had a bummer. There were children grown up. So there was an area where syringes and bags of glue were lying right on the street. But what a crowd they put up in a boy showdown. Fifty people. And the animals were still there, we must cut down to finish the brawl. And the bastards, of course, as they feel the strength, they begin to bullish. Crowd back by the crowd just for fun. Well, pearl crime is from there. But the service in the Airborne Forces is ideal for them.
                        So what am I doing. From which contingent do you propose recruiting potential suicide bombers? I am a pass. I didn’t enter the university I needed, and even without a military department, so as not to fly into Chechnya. In early childhood, I heard a lot of stories from Afghans. And Afghan cripples were among the familiar parents. But for those just right, you won’t catch them like that - there would be many times more volunteers. And the organized crime group of militants was selected from just such areas.
              2. AllXVahhaB
                AllXVahhaB 10 November 2017 14: 31
                0
                Quote: rait
                As for the intelligentsia, it is immediately clear that you do not know what you are talking about. The very intelligentsia in history has organized more than once and fought back, and those same courtyards often could not organize.

                Can you give a concrete example? Yet "not once")))
                1. would
                  would 11 November 2017 03: 32
                  +1
                  What examples do you want? I brought one of the media. The rest from my memory:

                  The very first example is from the school summer camp where one gopnik decided to get the whole group. For any reason, he beat or threatened to hit, he acted like a master, and we say his slaves. Cool, very well built strong. One on one in any way. Therefore, I, from an intelligent family (and generally hyper-custody), and 5 more not at all courtyards (music school, sections, Schaub's house was at 6, etc.) whom I knew very little (we almost did not talk in the camp) decided to "talk" with the gopnik. I called him for school, and when he came we were 6 intellectuals. Do you know what happened next? The same yard gopnik who was really strong, not only fighting, but did not even talk to us, he turned around and left. He pretended to be nothing. And for the whole shift he didn’t even approach any of us. This is the question of the ascension of the courtyards and the fact that intellectuals only scream much. And a similar scenario has been in my life more than once or twice, and not only in school. In my experience, those same yard gopniks "pressed and flowed", rare cowardly insignificance. Almost immediately, the statements are rolled, and during interrogations they knock on each other. Well and periodically beat each other’s face. And among my friends there was a lyceum student, terribly smart, quite right, practicing judo. A rare intellectual under 100 kg who always stood behind his own and who, with his appearance alone, inspired us all to fight back.

                  With a kind word of my political officer, I can recall a higher education, an intellectual. He fought with the non-regulator fiercely even during the time of Private Sychev. Everyone remembers with a kind word because it really helped, when someone was scared so that he escaped from the unit, he ran to the stairwell to the political officer. Because I knew that not only would it help (and because it helped, extortionists and grandfathers were flying along the walls) so even if the situation was really serious, so de jure you never left in SOCHI.

                  And now I live in a house where there is an initiative group of residents and the group of the house itself. And when I started having problems with one neighbor (thumps, turns on loud music for 24 hours), I was not the only one to solve them, but 7 more people who were far from being courtyards. And until that moment, I did not know them, but I gathered them, many pulled themselves, including women. And the issue was resolved, perhaps cruelly, but now this neighbor does not live in the house. He is evicted with the right only to a dorm room. And all because ignoring the legally competent statements of 8 people is difficult.

                  Just a little what problems with the Criminal Code will again be more than one statement, but there will be a group of several dozen people at least. But here the yard drunks do not participate in all this, the only thing they group in is in alcohol.
                  1. AllXVahhaB
                    AllXVahhaB 12 November 2017 09: 48
                    0
                    Of course, they have written a lot, a topic of vital interest to you, apparently))) But you have described the various types of human character. What does the tilligents \ yard gradation have to do with it? Are you a chauvinist?
                    Further: it follows from the examples you described that someone organized tiligent boys (neighbors) all the time, in your examples it is you. So where is self-organization? What is the difference who and for what purpose is building this herd?
                    Quote: rait
                    And the issue was resolved, perhaps cruelly, but now this neighbor does not live in the house. He is evicted with the right only to a dorm room.

                    This is how you deprived a person of his property? For more details, can I? On the basis of what and what decision was the court made?
                    1. would
                      would 12 November 2017 10: 10
                      0
                      Of course, they have written a lot, a topic of vital interest to you, apparently))) But you have described the various types of human character. What does the tilligents \ yard gradation have to do with it? Are you a chauvinist?


                      You ask this question to the wrong person, I, unlike brn521, did not state that

                      Well, again, mass education. The intelligentsia is meat that is not able to somehow organize itself and protect itself. Unlike yard.


                      but opposed this. Ask these questions to him, who claimed that “the intelligentsia is meat”, maybe he will answer you in his manner about cases in a vacuum.

                      Further: it follows from the examples you described that someone organized tiligent boys (neighbors) all the time, in your examples it is you. So where is self-organization?


                      You apparently do not know the meaning of the word "self-organization" in relation to society. Self-organization is when direct participants in the process themselves, without interference from outside, create a group to achieve certain goals. What actually happened: I met the guys, we talked, came to the same decision together, we self-organized without a clear hierarchy (although this does not contradict self-organization, but is one of the consequences).

                      So this is for you we were a herd, but then we would meet with us and say that we would be a herd, we would very object. And I'm afraid the argument of 6 healthy foreheads would be deadly. Well, if for you it doesn’t matter what the group’s goal is (for example, there is a big difference between the organized crime groups that were created for violence and robberies and the people's squad) ... well, I don’t even know whether to say or explain something.

                      This is how you deprived a person of his property? For more details, can I? On the basis of what and what decision was the court made?


                      And the fact of the matter is that it was not his property, but state property. He was a settler from some sort of barracks living on the basis of the social rent of a dwelling. The court made such a decision on the basis of improper performance of duties as a tenant: Lack of current repairs, not a single fire in the apartment, not a few cases of flooding of neighbors from below, constant complaints of noise. All this, of course, was documented and legally confirmed for the sake of which we organized ourselves. And then it’s pointless to beat his face because it is possible to achieve the result only by killing, and it’s dangerous, I’ll hit him, his jaw with rotten teeth will fly apart, and he will roll over. Therefore, we did everything legally.

                      Housing is not his, by a court decision, on the basis of the LCD of the Russian Federation 84 and 91 (and a number of other legal acts) on the street with the right to a dormitory room. Just because this right is not possible to take away from a competent citizen. But if it had been privatized, it would have been impossible; it was impossible to evict a person from his own single dwelling.
                      1. AllXVahhaB
                        AllXVahhaB 12 November 2017 11: 51
                        0
                        Quote: rait
                        Self-organization is when direct participants in the process themselves, without interference from outside, create a group to achieve certain goals.

                        There are no such processes without Лydera!

                        Quote: rait
                        So this is for you we were a herd, but then we would meet with us and say that we would be a herd, we would very object.

                        For whom for us? Why do you always distance yourself from others? Is this a sign of the intelligentsia? And what are its symptoms? Maybe I was also an intelligent boy?;)
                        Quote: rait
                        And I'm afraid the argument of 6 healthy foreheads would be deadly.

                        Again special cases. I saw how 6 healthy intelligent foreheads stood at attention and hands at the seams, and two frail damps checked them with “plywood”. And it was not in the army ...
                        Quote: rait
                        Well, if for you it doesn’t matter what the group’s goal is (for example, there is a big difference between the organized crime groups that were created for violence and robberies and the people's squad) ... well, I don’t even know whether to say or explain something.

                        Where did I say that it makes no difference to me? I just said that in both cases organizations are built on the same principle - he is a collective and in Africa a collective ...
                        Quote: rait
                        And the fact of the matter is that it was not his property, but state property.

                        Who in our time has not privatized housing left? Did not know...
                        Quote: rait
                        And then it’s pointless to beat his face because it is possible to achieve the result only by killing, and it’s dangerous, I’ll hit him, his jaw with rotten teeth will fly apart, and he will roll over. Therefore, we did everything legally.

                        That is, instead of re-educating a person, bailing him, influencing ... You simply deprived him of housing? Somehow it’s not socialist)))
                        Signed in their own impotence ...
              3. Mikhail Matyugin
                Mikhail Matyugin 16 November 2018 02: 08
                0
                Quote: rait
                That is, you think it is absolutely normal that of the 40 people, only two are combat-ready and are a group? And the rest, if they kill the first, you just have to give weapons? And if there is no command that will push them to just sit down and sit? But.

                A very accurate formulation of the views of those who justify the manifestation of hazing as an allegedly cementing element of the soldiers
          2. Abel
            Abel 8 November 2017 13: 14
            0
            Moreover, it turns out not a group, but a flock.
          3. bk316
            bk316 10 November 2017 19: 40
            +2
            would

            You write well, but unfortunately brn521 is right in your dispute
            1. would
              would 11 November 2017 08: 29
              0
              Well, what can I say here, if you really think that a modern fighter should be stupid and uneducated as a Middle Age pike and at the same time should be so stupid and frostbitten, with a psyche killed that even a direct order should not stop him from mass slaughter of civilians , and he himself should not execute orders without the direct presence of the commander, then only God will judge you and may you and your family never meet those whom brn521 exalts as an ideal. Because this ideal is even worse than individual ISIS units, because even with their heads and order they are better. As with training.

              This ideal that you support and you are able to "fight" only with civilians, entering cities and carving out all living things (which brn521 so ardently supports) and ingloriously dying in a collision even with poorly trained modern units. Syria itself proves this.
              1. AllXVahhaB
                AllXVahhaB 12 November 2017 09: 52
                0
                Quote: rait
                if you really think that a modern fighter should be dumb and uneducated as a Middle Age pike and at the same time should be so dumb and frostbitten, with a psyche killed that even a direct order should not stop him from mass slaughter of the civilian population, but he himself should not execute orders without the direct presence of the commander

                What does anyone have to do with it? There is a real state of affairs! Well, in life like that! Like or dislike ... Have you taken part in real hostilities?
                1. would
                  would 12 November 2017 10: 12
                  +1
                  That is, you claim that you and your squad will personally break into the church and cut all the women and children inside, ignoring the direct command of the command, specifically do not even touch this church? And specifically to indicate this, your command issued women and children the combat banners of your forces? Well, as claimed by brn521 who wrote that since the Crusaders acted, they will act now. Is it like this in your life, I understood correctly?
                  1. AllXVahhaB
                    AllXVahhaB 12 November 2017 11: 58
                    0
                    Quote: rait
                    That is, you claim that you and your squad will personally break into the church and cut all the women and children inside, ignoring the direct command of the command, specifically do not even touch this church? And specifically to indicate this, your command issued women and children the combat banners of your forces? Well, as claimed by brn521 who wrote that since the Crusaders acted, they will act now. Is it like this in your life, I understood correctly?

                    Well, as I understand it, you did not take part in real hostilities ...
                    And what does the crusaders have to do with it? Look at the history of the 20th century! Nanjing massacre, Volyn massacre, concentration camps, genocide ...
                    It’s convenient on the couch to talk about the beautiful. When the real scribe comes, all civilizational-intellectual husk flies at once!
                    1. would
                      would 12 November 2017 12: 37
                      0
                      About how they ran away from the question, already sparkling heels are visible.

                      But now I had a question: And in what “hostilities” and on which side did you take part in that you cut out the civilians of the captured city and support it so ardently? For obvious reasons, the Russian Armed Forces did not participate in this because they are not a gang. Are you from ISIS? From the "free" Ichkeria? And yes, they are much justified in "flaking husks." But our guys, including those from Grozny and Afghanistan, do not support this, and one whole colonel, despite all the awards, was demoted to a private, was deprived of awards and was sent to prison for the murder of a Chechen girl. One girl. And something even from his lips, the one who killed the girl, we did not hear anything about "on the couch reasoning about the beautiful" and other excuses. He, the killer, directly always said that he had killed and that he was guilty.

                      I think you will run away from this question headlong.
                      1. AllXVahhaB
                        AllXVahhaB 12 November 2017 13: 31
                        0
                        Quote: rait
                        About how they ran away from the question, already sparkling heels are visible.

                        In my opinion, you run away from the question of participation)))
                        Quote: rait
                        But now I had a question: And in what “hostilities” and on which side did you take part in that you cut out the civilians of the captured city and support it so ardently? For obvious reasons, the Russian Armed Forces did not participate in this.

                        I was born in a country that was larger than the Russian Federation. And not on the territory of the RSFSR. And on the right side. Believe me ...
                        Quote: rait
                        Are you from ISIS?

                        No, I’m not from ISIS and I have no relation to the Iblis state.
                        Quote: rait
                        But our guys, including those who entered Grozny and Afghanistan

                        Have you ever entered somewhere? What would be responsible for someone? Another butor ...
                        Quote: rait
                        in spite of all the awards, one whole colonel was demoted to a private, deprived of awards and was sent to prison for the murder of a Chechen girl. One girl. And something even from his lips, the one who killed the girl, we did not hear anything about "on the couch reasoning about the beautiful" and other excuses. He, the killer, directly always said that he had killed and that he was guilty.

                        Budanov is not an exception, this is the RULE, or rather the routine of real combat! In REAL, and not from books from which, most likely, you draw your ideas about the war ...
                        Quote: rait
                        I think you will run away from this question headlong.

                        From which one?
                      2. AllXVahhaB
                        AllXVahhaB 12 November 2017 13: 36
                        0
                        Quote: rait
                        that the civilian population of the captured city was slaughtered and support it so ardently?

                        I did not take part in the massacre of civilians and I do not support this. No need to ascribe to me your fantasies ...
      4. Akuzenka
        Akuzenka 7 November 2017 11: 00
        +4
        Domination, reproduction, nutrition - animal instincts. Collectivism and ability is divided - human. Well, what to do if individualism encourages animal instincts. Nothing, just wait for each other to be devoured, shoot. And what civilization is barbaric? Of course Anglo-Saxon, with no options.
        1. brn521
          brn521 8 November 2017 11: 38
          0
          Quote: AKuzenka
          Collectivism and ability is divided - human.

          Bees, ants, termites.
          Quote: AKuzenka
          Well, what to do if individualism encourages animal instincts.

          Domination is no longer individualism, but work in society. Reproduction - even more so. Two individuals, then society.
          Quote: AKuzenka
          Well, what to do if individualism encourages animal instincts. Nothing, just wait for each other to be devoured, shoot.

          Rather, they will form a gang group, and they will not eat each other, but someone who is weaker than them.
          Quote: AKuzenka
          And what civilization is barbaric? Of course Anglo-Saxon, with no options.

          So ours is even worse than barbaric. Since we are not eating, but eating us. It was not we who organized the IMF and the WTO and not our corporations became country-national. What is the use of the most beautiful civilization if it is not able to defend and support itself?
        2. AllXVahhaB
          AllXVahhaB 12 November 2017 09: 53
          0
          Quote: AKuzenka
          Collectivism and ability is divided - human.

          That is, the herd of sheep is not guided by animal instincts?
      5. creak
        creak 7 November 2017 11: 16
        +3
        It is interesting, but what does the author know about the service in our Army, as much as about the American? Can the author make a comparison with our army service based on his own experience, without quoting or retelling American books and films ...
        Something, because we ourselves had a chance to learn and understand - the article, in its one-sidedness and lack of deliberation, is very similar to the lectures of not the most literate political leaders scourging the many vices of the American military, reading out the editorial from Red Star
        On the site, after all, for the most part, they are not conscripts — first-year-olds and white-ticketers who know the Army from films and books — and times have changed a bit ...
        1. Glory1974
          7 November 2017 14: 58
          +2
          But what does the author know about service in our Army, as much as about the American?

          I know more about my own, about the American only from books and films. Well, according to the stories of comrades, who came across them.
          Can the author make a comparison with our army service based on my own experience,

          of course it is possible. But it seems to me that everyone knows our hazing, after reading a book you can compare it yourself.
          the article, in its one-sidedness and lack of balance, is very similar to the lectures of not the most literate political leaders

          the goal was not set to compare The goal was to share information about "likely friends"

          The point is that if in our army all the time they are struggling with hazing, they are trying to legitimize it in the American one. That is completely different approaches.
          1. creak
            creak 7 November 2017 17: 20
            +1
            Quote: glory1974
            The point is that if in our army all the time they are struggling with hazing, in American try to legitimize it. That is, completely different approaches. I know more about my own, about the American only from books and films.

            The fact is that no one is trying to legalize bullying anywhere - they will make up. an adequate idea of ​​the likely enemy in books and films will not work ... And when the book and cinema ideas of the enemy on the field are broken up into harsh reality - this is fraught with very serious consequences - the 1941 tragedy confirms this ....
            Only a thorough study of the likely enemy and an adequate, balanced assessment of his strengths and weaknesses gives a chance to defeat him ...
            At one time, I was lucky to learn from professionals who understood this - life and service confirmed this truth ...
            And the learning process, at first glance, can be tough and even cruel - more sweat - less blood ...
            As one sergeant major once said: "Soldiers, I am an alchemist - from such green shit as you forge steel bayonets" - and you won’t do this with white gloves.
            1. Glory1974
              7 November 2017 20: 31
              +2
              The fact is that no one is trying to legalize bullying anywhere

              This is precisely what is at stake. Read Borovik. At West Point, a senior student is entitled to command a junior student. At "fur seals" experienced contract soldiers beat the face of young officers so that they do not forget about politeness.
              Only a thorough study of the likely enemy and an adequate, balanced assessment of his strengths and weaknesses gives a chance to defeat him ...

              Therefore, we study by all possible sources
              And the learning process, at first glance, can be tough and even cruel - more sweat - less blood

              If you sweat when your older comrades beat you, will this help in battle? Talk about hazing, not about combat training.
              1. Setrac
                Setrac 7 November 2017 21: 22
                +1
                Quote: glory1974
                If you sweat when your older comrades beat you, will this help in battle?

                It’s also training if he can drive a bus no matter what. And when they kick you in the gym, does that mean normal? And how are the maroon berets the same maroon berets earn, and I note, they go for it voluntarily.
                1. Maki Avellevich
                  Maki Avellevich 8 November 2017 07: 29
                  +2
                  Quote: Setrac
                  Quote: glory1974
                  If you sweat when your older comrades beat you, will this help in battle?
                  It’s also training if he can drive a bus no matter what. And when they kick you in the gym, does that mean normal? And how are the maroon berets the same maroon berets earn, and I note, they go for it voluntarily.


                  I watched a couple of times the American soldiers in Israel, they are here.
                  having observed, I came to the conclusion that the average co-factor of the intelligentsia
                  approximately 80-90. approximately.
                  physically healthy but rather infantile, not fully developed personalities.
                  from personal experience, the waist of a person in battle is often lost and cannot effectively resist the enemy. and for some in the infantry, this seems to be no exception, but the rule, since they select a certain contingent there and then further and exacerbate it with a kind of preparation.
              2. verner1967
                verner1967 7 November 2017 22: 00
                0
                Quote: glory1974
                If you sweat when your older comrades beat you, will this help in battle? Talk about hazing, not about combat training.

                when the grandfather kicks the young man, that he would run faster on the cross-country or when the older cadet forces the younger student to push up on the floor, if he does not know the TTD of the enemy BMP well, is it military training or hazing?
                1. Glory1974
                  8 November 2017 20: 10
                  0
                  when the grandfather kicks the young man, that he would run faster on the cross-country or when the older cadet forces the younger student to push up on the floor, if he does not know the TTD of the enemy BMP well, is it military training or hazing?

                  This is a combat training with hazing elements. At what military training can be without hazing.
                  1. verner1967
                    verner1967 9 November 2017 07: 49
                    0
                    Quote: glory1974
                    This is a combat training with hazing elements.

                    I ask you about specific kicks and push-ups, without elements.
                    Quote: glory1974
                    At what military training can be without hazing.

                    only among draftees, without a “moral incentive,” is it just not effective.
                    1. Glory1974
                      9 November 2017 12: 38
                      0
                      I ask you about specific kicks and push-ups, without elements.

                      In my practice, there was a case when, in order to increase combat training
                      "pierced plywood" young and he died of cardiac arrest. Therefore, you can certainly kick in a soft place, because it is safer. But in any case, this is an article.
                      If there is a summary approved by the commander, and push-ups are carried out in the classroom, this is study. If at night and without a plan-summary - hazing.
                      only among draftees, without a “moral incentive,” is it just not effective.

                      In pedagogy, the main task is motivation for study. Among different categories of students, different motivation. The charter and orders painted motivation for the military. You can discuss whether it is effective or not, but not otherwise provided. Everything that goes beyond is hazing.
                      1. AllXVahhaB
                        AllXVahhaB 12 November 2017 12: 03
                        0
                        Quote: glory1974
                        In pedagogy, the main task is motivation for study.

                        That is, the main task of pedagogy is pedagogy itself? belay
                        And I thought - the result ...
          2. Setrac
            Setrac 7 November 2017 21: 20
            +1
            Quote: glory1974
            The point is that if in our army all the time they are struggling with hazing, they are trying to legitimize it in the American one. That is completely different approaches.

            They are also fighting corruption in the same way - by legitimizing it.
      6. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 7 November 2017 14: 53
        +1
        Quote: Maki Avellevich
        I don’t understand what is the point of purposefully humiliating a soldier? to get embittered humiliated ferret? such a soldier can and will be aggressively effective but will not go far in this.
        They’ll fight while the commander barks, and as soon as the soldier does not have a commander, there is no head.
        those who are humiliated show poor initiative, and when a battle is more than a carpet bombardment, oh how it is.
        nonsense.

        Come on ... each army has its own traditions ... the Americans are fighting well
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 7 November 2017 21: 23
          0
          Quote: Krasnodar
          Come on ... each army has its own traditions ... the Americans are fighting well

          Let's just say this - at an average level. They crush with numbers - this is how Americans fight.
          1. verner1967
            verner1967 7 November 2017 22: 01
            +2
            Quote: Setrac
            They crush with numbers - this is how Americans fight.

            crush the number is ours, Americans have always fought with technology, people were cherished.
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 7 November 2017 22: 37
              +2
              Quote: verner1967
              crush the number is ours, Americans have always fought with technology, people were cherished.

              Where does our number come from? are you kidding me?
              Numerical superiority can be expressed not only in the number of people, but also in the number of equipment, in the greater consumption of ammunition - also numerical superiority.
              1. verner1967
                verner1967 7 November 2017 23: 12
                0
                Quote: Setrac
                Where does our number come from?

                I'm talking about people, with technology we have trouble ....
                Quote: Setrac
                They crush with numbers - this is how Americans fight.

                Well, according to the charter, but how else is it necessary?
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 7 November 2017 23: 22
                  +4
                  Quote: verner1967
                  I'm talking about people, with technology we have trouble ....

                  And I, too - so where did the Russians get the number to fill up with someone? Maybe there are more Russians than Chinese? Or more than Americans? Perhaps more than Europeans? So where is the number from?
                  1. AllXVahhaB
                    AllXVahhaB 12 November 2017 12: 06
                    0
                    Quote: Setrac
                    And I, too - so where did the Russians get the number to fill up with someone? Maybe there are more Russians than Chinese? Or more than Americans? Perhaps more than Europeans? So where is the number from?

                    We are darkness! And our army !!! laughing
        2. Maki Avellevich
          Maki Avellevich 9 November 2017 08: 12
          0
          Quote: Krasnodar
          Come on ... each army has its own traditions ... the Americans are fighting well


          no worse comment than "not bad"
      7. 73bor
        73bor 7 November 2017 23: 02
        0
        The whole system of educating a soldier in the West is based on reckless execution of orders, you don’t have to go far, look “Soldier Jane” - the most frostbitten, devoid of individuality “mankurts” survive, a heap of identical bolts and nuts can never be compared with even the most simple mechanism!
        1. would
          would 8 November 2017 06: 39
          +2
          That moment when as a source is used art movie...

          And these same people are laughing at the Americans who are building their opinions about Russia on the basis of other feature films where they constantly consume vodka and walk the bears in the streets!
      8. Mih1974
        Mih1974 8 November 2017 01: 42
        +2
        Well, what is the nonsense? Actually described “successful” battles are such “fighters” that are engaged, for the most part, in the destruction with particular cruelty of the civilian population. And when they are stocked with a motivated opponent, they become angry (literally) and drape. throwing their own on the battlefield, and even more so from other units. To stand to death like the Russians is NEVER, they scamper and surrender at the first serious threat. This is a full-time army consisting ONLY of kov. negative
        1. AllXVahhaB
          AllXVahhaB 12 November 2017 12: 11
          0
          Quote: Mih1974
          Standing to Death Like Russians - NEVER,

          Let's not exaggerate! Why did so many prisoners of war come in 41? Where does the Vlasov Army come from? Where are the Cossack units of the SS? Or was it not the Russians?
      9. bodzu
        bodzu 12 November 2017 15: 31
        0
        I agree . Therefore, the US Army is a flock of goblins.
      10. tracer
        tracer 13 November 2017 17: 22
        0
        That is exactly how soldiers are brought up in the American and Cadadian army. Not a step without an order. Initiatives are zero thoughts too.
    3. Finches
      Finches 7 November 2017 09: 40
      +3
      Nobody has canceled bullying in the army ... even in the American! laughing
    4. siberalt
      siberalt 7 November 2017 12: 45
      10
      Today is the 100th of the Great Socialist October Revolution, which turned the world upside down. And we are about American orders in their army. Happy Comrade Day, which our liberals are trying to take from the people! drinks
  2. Uncle lee
    Uncle lee 7 November 2017 06: 32
    +6
    Long time ago I read about the orders in the US Army - "Worms" is called .....
  3. verner1967
    verner1967 7 November 2017 06: 49
    10
    Several sailors, apparently former members of street gangs in the past, constantly provoked discipline violations. The commander of the ship called us to his place and informed us at what time the bandits were engaged in the gym. We went down to the simulator, the door locked behind us, and we solved the "gangster" problem. " This is probably exclusively an American method, to solve the gangster problem, in fact, gangster ways.
    condemn, sir? I remember that an article was published on the VO how Dagi put things in order in the garrison, very many, under the approving hooting of the others, suggested connecting special forces to the case (in fact, I was for it), and now I condemn ....
    1. Glory1974
      7 November 2017 15: 04
      +4
      very many, under the approving hooting of the others, suggested connecting special forces to the case (in fact, I was for it), and now we condemn ....

      when the laws do not work, it is necessary to do so.
      When the guardhouse was canceled in the army at the end of the 90's, the last restraining factor on the soldier disappeared, and accordingly the number of officers condemned for scuffles increased sharply.
      If earlier it was possible to declare a soldier a certain number of days of arrest, they did not go to his service life, and you could hold up a demobilization for a month, which they really did not like. After this, there was one way to fight: hang up the cradles.
      Thus, if in our army it was the absence of law. In the American, what is this? Also lack of law and reform?
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 7 November 2017 16: 37
        +2
        Quote: glory1974
        it was possible to delay the demobilization for a month, which they really did not like

        For a month ? Hee hee! In our unit, it somehow happened that the "demobilization" (drivers!) Were "detained" for half a year ... until the next call! Sent to the "virgin lands"! Of course, not all ... but having "special merits" before the command.
      2. verner1967
        verner1967 7 November 2017 19: 04
        0
        Quote: glory1974
        What is it in American? Also lack of law and reform?

        and what do you do with the gang on an aircraft carrier in a campaign by law?
        1. Glory1974
          7 November 2017 20: 35
          0
          and what do you do with the gang on an aircraft carrier in a campaign by law?

          there is a military police. They closed the guardhouse, and upon arrival at the port under court.
          Although the traditions of the English fleet do not pay attention to what is happening under the deck. But if he didn’t go on duty, they could hang.
          1. verner1967
            verner1967 7 November 2017 21: 52
            0
            Quote: glory1974
            Although in the tradition of the English fleet

            actually a story about the American Navy, okay
            Quote: glory1974
            there is a military police. They closed the guardhouse, and upon arrival at the port under court.

            and who will drag the service for them, they did not go on a yacht cruise, although they were bandits, but specialists in their craft. And so, you look, and they will become brave Morichmen.
            1. Glory1974
              8 November 2017 20: 16
              0
              actually a story about the American Navy, okay

              American as the heir to English.
              who will drag the service for them, they did not go on a yacht cruise, although they were bandits, but specialists in their craft. And so, you look, and they will become brave Morichmen.

              I do not think that they dragged the service for themselves. probably forced someone.
              But if you legitimize their "activity", give a title, a position so that they themselves do not officially work, then they may well become Morimans.
              1. verner1967
                verner1967 9 November 2017 07: 54
                0
                Quote: glory1974
                American as the heir to English.

                that's never an heir)))
                Quote: glory1974
                I do not think that they dragged the service for themselves. probably forced someone.

                it is if you wash the floors or peel the potatoes, but this is ours, they don’t do it there, but to serve the plane or to sit on the “remote control” is hardly
                1. Glory1974
                  9 November 2017 12: 44
                  0
                  they are there specialists do not do it, but to serve the plane or to sit on the "remote control" is hardly

                  so deeply did not delve deeper, but I admit that you can stand on guard for "grandfather" in any service lol
  4. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 7 November 2017 07: 17
    10
    A. Borovik’s book was read with interest in due time. And "hazing" in the American army has been since the emergence of this army and has flourished to this day. Politicians and generals have a headache not about bullying, but about decent service in this army of various sexual minorities, which in turn are subjected to even greater abuse. A vicious circle that should not bother us at all. The moral collapse in the enemy army is only at hand.
  5. Velizariy
    Velizariy 7 November 2017 08: 34
    +1
    And if a solger burst out laughing at the moment when the sergeant has a mug like in severe constipation, what will happen? Will the soldiers be disheartened? And then he will condemn them in a place with a pentagon))) What does the funny screaming serge of a sergeant symbolize?
  6. Stirbjorn
    Stirbjorn 7 November 2017 09: 19
    +2
    In the USA, the call is canceled, so that the recruits know what they are going to
    1. akims
      akims 7 November 2017 10: 17
      +5
      This is not so, in recruiting offices they will tell you how everything is great and wonderful, a lot of money, the ability to travel, etc. Zamanuha, in a word.
      The reality is very different.
      1. Mikhail Matyugin
        Mikhail Matyugin 16 November 2018 02: 17
        0
        Quote: akims
        This is not so, in recruiting offices they will tell you how everything is great and wonderful, a lot of money, the ability to travel, etc. Zamanuha, in a word.
        The reality is very different.

        It doesn't matter, one way or another, but this is not a call, but a voluntary recruitment, and no one is forcibly pulled there. Although their propaganda machine works with a bang, I must admit ...
  7. MoJloT
    MoJloT 7 November 2017 10: 02
    0
    We went along the same pioneer camp.
  8. Alex_59
    Alex_59 7 November 2017 10: 47
    +4
    I read somewhere the memoirs of a Russian German who fell into the German army after emigrating to the 90 years. It is forbidden to touch a soldier with his hands - only yell, and then carefully. Otherwise, a violation of rights. I also remember that somehow on the march, their non-starter began to scream, urging the soldiers "faster, the Russians are attacking, they are catching up." Then Unter remembered that there was a “Russian” German in the ranks - and after the last time he came to apologize, saying that I shouted it in the park, etc. So that the soldier also did not file a cart for him intolerance of Russian emigrants. As a result, the Germans liked the service “our” - he sent everyone to the forest, slept a lot and rested. I do not know the truth or not, but it is believable.
    1. Karlos13
      Karlos13 7 November 2017 12: 19
      +1
      these memories
      https://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/83/895265.html
    2. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 7 November 2017 15: 02
      0
      Quote: Alex_59
      I read somewhere the memoirs of a Russian German who fell into the German army after emigrating to the 90 years. It is forbidden to touch a soldier with his hands - only yell, and then carefully. Otherwise, a violation of rights. I also remember that somehow on the march, their non-starter began to scream, urging the soldiers "faster, the Russians are attacking, they are catching up." Then Unter remembered that there was a “Russian” German in the ranks - and after the last time he came to apologize, saying that I shouted it in the park, etc. So that the soldier also did not file a cart for him intolerance of Russian emigrants. As a result, the Germans liked the service “our” - he sent everyone to the forest, slept a lot and rested. I do not know the truth or not, but it is believable.

      He lived in Germany for six months. You can believe him, not only one person told me something like that either.
  9. Tsoy
    Tsoy 7 November 2017 11: 16
    +4
    in the US Marine Corps and, in particular, in the seals


    And why drag in the ILC? SEAL seems to be a completely different category and include them in marines a priori tupizm.

    By the way, the author of the book Chris Kyle, after serving in the army, organized a shooting club and taught everyone to shoot a rifle. A few years later he was shot dead in a shooting gallery by his colleague in Iraq. The reason for this is hazing or something else, the story, like Clint Eastwood, is silent.


    Continuing to pull the horse on the globe. Kayla killed a mentally unstable veteran with TCP. His mind was not shaken by jokes, but by the war in Iraq.

    The very promise of the article is rotten. Another attempt to show what they are bastards? Well, in any team, even in the civilian world, there is an element of seniority. It is simply in human nature.
    1. Glory1974
      7 November 2017 15: 09
      +1
      And why drag in the ILC? SEAL seems to be a completely different category and include them in marines a priori tupizm.

      Both the ILC and SEAL are, as it were, one type of armed forces, namely the Navy.
      Continuing to pull the horse on the globe. Kayla killed a mentally unstable veteran with TCP. His mind was not shaken by jokes, but by the war in Iraq.

      not a horse, but an owl trying to pull. laughing
      But seriously, why would a psycho kill his colleague who could have saved his life? The sources say "veteran", but no details where he served, with whom, for which he killed, no. What makes my version worse?
      1. Tsoy
        Tsoy 7 November 2017 15: 50
        0
        not a horse, but an owl trying to pull.


        No, for some time I have an owl in space, and a horse on a globe laughing laughing

        But seriously, why would a psycho kill his colleague who could have saved his life? The sources say "veteran", but no details where he served, with whom, for which he killed, no. What makes my version worse?


        Well, he did not save his life. Just tried to help adapt to a peaceful life. Ray, some kind of there served in the ILC and did not intersect with Kyle. He killed by his own words, guided by "could not trust them, and therefore killed them before they could kill him." Madman, what to take with him.
      2. verner1967
        verner1967 7 November 2017 19: 00
        0
        Quote: glory1974
        Both the ILC and SEAL are, as it were, one type of armed forces, namely the Navy.

        laughing ILCs would be very surprised, even offended by such a comparison. The US Armed Forces consist of four types of Air Force, Navy, Ground Forces and ILC. Do not confuse with our sun.
        1. Glory1974
          7 November 2017 20: 24
          0
          ILCs would be very surprised, even offended by such a comparison.

          The Internet claims the opposite: "The organizational structure of the Navy has not been changed throughout the US and is divided into two combat forces: the fleet and the Marine Corps, which also have a reserve. Acting jointly, these structures, however, have their own separate command."
          As far as I know, both marines and sailors say that they "serve in the navy."
          1. verner1967
            verner1967 7 November 2017 21: 57
            0
            Quote: glory1974
            Acting together, these structures
            it would be strange if they worked together with aviation, for example.
            Quote: glory1974
            these structures, however, have their own separate command

            here the dog rummaged, the key phrase, however. I’ll tell you more, they even hold their own contests for armaments and supplies, as equal species, independent of each other. Strange of course, but it is a fact.
            1. Glory1974
              8 November 2017 20: 24
              0
              here the dog rummaged, the key phrase, however.

              probably this is the whole point. They have an Anglo-Saxon type of army. We have Prussian. Therefore, significant differences in the organizational structure.
              1. verner1967
                verner1967 9 November 2017 07: 51
                0
                Quote: glory1974
                Therefore, significant differences in the organizational structure.

                and I did not compare our structures, I only talked about amers
                1. Glory1974
                  9 November 2017 12: 42
                  0
                  and I did not compare our structures, I only talked about amers

                  I also talk about them. I indicate why we will not come to a consensus. Therefore, I continue to assert that despite the fact that they have their own commands and they independently order equipment, they are still part of the Navy.
          2. Tsoy
            Tsoy 8 November 2017 14: 57
            0
            As far as I know, both marines and sailors say that they "serve in the navy."


            Yep And although SEAL are naval ranks, but administratively obey SOCOM. Separate command.
    2. Mih1974
      Mih1974 8 November 2017 01: 57
      +1
      Why do we need to “tell” what bastards they are? We’ll know it so well. negative .Like their army was the gathering of infants and geeks - so from year to year new confirmations.
  10. lukewarm
    lukewarm 7 November 2017 12: 19
    +7
    Beautiful article))) Especially the ending. Unexpected.
    Or this
    I hope this article will be read on Echo of Moscow, in the American Committee of Soldiers' Mothers, and will finally be concerned about the state of affairs with the rights of American soldiers.

    You can’t say better. There are spots in the sun of world democracy.
  11. Ingvar0401
    Ingvar0401 7 November 2017 13: 07
    +3
    He served on the ship for twenty years, found another time of three-year-olds. We also had hazing, but everything was within reason. The case when the "grandfather" with a height of 167 cm "punched a starling" from a jar of a young one with a height of 193 cm is memorable ...
  12. SMP
    SMP 7 November 2017 14: 31
    0
    I didn’t even read it, just because I don’t believe randomly written ones.
    1. Glory1974
      7 November 2017 15: 11
      +1
      I didn’t even read it, just because I don’t believe randomly written ones.

      did not quite understand the comment. Do you not believe the American sniper?
      1. myobius59
        myobius59 8 November 2017 10: 38
        +1
        Well no. He does not believe himself.
        He from those who did not see, did not read, does not know, - But condemns.
  13. Sedoi zmei
    Sedoi zmei 7 November 2017 14: 39
    +4
    He served urgent in the 80s ... I will not say where, I will only say that abroad. Hazing flourished "in full"! And it suited everyone! Why? Yes, because the officer camp was outside the military unit. Naturally, all the officers wanted to leave home from the location as soon as possible, and the “grandfathers” were in charge of the whole part at that time! You can tell them she kept on! Everything is simple! )) I do not know how it is now ... But then bullying in the SA flourished absolutely everywhere! What can I say about the American army ...
  14. Bosch
    Bosch 7 November 2017 14: 45
    +2
    The American army can fight with the weak and unarmed, but a strong opponent is contraindicated.
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 7 November 2017 15: 05
      +2
      Quote: Bosch
      The American army can fight with the weak and unarmed, but a strong opponent is contraindicated.

      So the Japanese infantry (not the worst) and the Germans seemed to be doing.
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 7 November 2017 21: 27
        0
        Quote: Krasnodar
        Yes, and the Germans seemed to be doing.

        When did they have time?
        The Germans "made" them in full.
        1. verner1967
          verner1967 7 November 2017 22: 03
          +1
          Quote: Setrac
          The Germans "made" them in full.

          Where? The ardennes? Temporary success, the Germans did ours, solid boilers in the 41st and drap in the 42nd to the Volga, nevertheless we are in Berlin, and the Americans are on the Elbe.
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 7 November 2017 22: 39
            +2
            Quote: verner1967
            de? The ardennes? Temporary success, the Germans did ours, solid boilers in the 41st and drap in the 42nd to the Volga, nevertheless we are in Berlin, and the Americans are on the Elbe.

            But ours defeated the elite, while the Americans defeated the Hitler Youth and Volksturm — that is, the elderly and children.
            Figuratively speaking, while a Russian soldier fought with a German soldier, three American soldiers fought with one German teenager and managed to lose.
            1. verner1967
              verner1967 7 November 2017 23: 17
              0
              Quote: Setrac
              three American soldiers fought with one German teenager and managed to lose.

              what are they losing half of Europe have passed? accordingly, the Germans replayed themselves so that they rolled back to the Elbe. laughing
              Quote: Setrac
              and the Americans - the Hitler Youth and Volksturm - that is, the elderly and children.

              do not repeat these ideological cliches
              Quote: Setrac
              Hitler Youth and Volksturm

              were on both sides of Berlin, as were the cadre troops. And do not forget at the same time that the Americans almost single-handedly jerked the Japs.
              1. Setrac
                Setrac 7 November 2017 23: 25
                +3
                Quote: verner1967
                do not repeat these ideological cliches

                Not all propaganda is false. Germans removed divisions from the western direction in order to direct them against the Russians, 90% of the Wehrmacht was defeated by the Red Army.
                Quote: verner1967
                And do not forget at the same time that the Americans almost single-handedly jerked the Japs.

                And the millionth Kwantung army?
                1. verner1967
                  verner1967 9 November 2017 08: 05
                  0
                  Quote: Setrac
                  90% of the Wehrmacht was defeated by the Red Army.

                  yes write immediately 100%)))) in general, then all historians including and Soviet converge 75%
                  Quote: Setrac
                  And the millionth Kwantung army?

                  I already answered one, but you at least read the literature. There, after all, the situation for the Japs was even worse than that of the Germans in the west
                  1. Setrac
                    Setrac 9 November 2017 18: 44
                    0
                    Quote: verner1967
                    yes write immediately 100%)))) in general, then all historians including and Soviet converge 75%

                    75% is with the fleet and aviation, the Wehrmacht is 90% threshed by the Red Army.
                    1. verner1967
                      verner1967 9 November 2017 19: 07
                      0
                      Quote: Setrac
                      The Wehrmacht is 90% threshed by the Red Army.

                      stop chanting mantras
                      According to these data, the demographic losses of the German Armed Forces in all theaters of war in 1939-1945 amounted to 5,318 million people who died (including the loss of Volkssturm, police and paramilitary forces), including on the Eastern Front - until 31.12.1944/1,607/1,135. 1945 million were killed, died of wounds, non-combat losses, and 533 million were reported missing. Losses in undivided 697 (according to Overmans, two-thirds of them were on the Eastern Front) amounted to 361 thousand killed and died from wounds, non-combat losses, and XNUMX thousand missing people declared dead, losses in captivity amounted to XNUMX thousand people .
                      add and make up the percentage of the amounts received. Did you study arithmetic at school? According to my estimates, barely 50% passes, and if you add aviation and navy to the scales, then from your slogans there will be no trace. I would like to add, preceding your statement on the allies of Germany, Romania put forward the largest allied contingent from among the countries - German satellites 267 727 people, if we add to them more or less significant allies Hungary, Italy and Finland, then there will hardly be 400 thousand people, if we assume that they’ve put them all, then even 75% won’t be typed, but we won’t count them, because we’ll have to count these same allies on the western front (Italy), and also the Pacific Theater ...
                      1. Setrac
                        Setrac 9 November 2017 21: 16
                        +1
                        Quote: verner1967
                        stop chanting mantras

                        Mantras for those who believe in German propaganda. They lost three million only in the first year. An army of five and a half million people does not stop the offensive having lost TOTAL 200000, according to German propaganda, the army stops the offensive having lost up to 70%, that is, only in the first year the Germans lost up to 3.5 million, otherwise they would have won the war in the first year.
                        Quote: verner1967
                        Romania put forward the largest allied contingent from among the countries - German satellites of 267 people, if we add to them more or less significant allies Hungary, Italy and Finland, then there will hardly be 727 thousand people

                        Apparently you do not know, at the beginning of the war with the USSR, 5.5 million bayonets were concentrated near the western border of the USSR, of which 4.2 were Wehrmacht and 1.3 million bayonets were allies and satellites of the Third Reich.
                        Quote: verner1967
                        assuming

                        You will learn a better story, you will know and not assume.
                        Quote: verner1967
                        According to these data, the demographic losses of the German Armed Forces in all theaters of operations

                        According to whose data?
              2. Mih1974
                Mih1974 8 November 2017 02: 04
                +4
                Shikoko shikoko japosek they killed? Huh? So stick your writings to yourself (there) and shut up.
                This is the Soviet Union in a few weeks, the Mellion land army of the Japanese who sat in tight defense, including on the stone islands of the Kuril ridge - multiplied by zero !! Hitler’s generals turned on like a fan in the thunder, like the Soviet army twelve main blows - dared the Japanese soldier.
                Smelly American pedrils - hundreds of thousands of tons of bombs and shells dumped on the defending Japanese and then suffered losses that often exceeded the Japanese. The Soviet troops almost without support - they picked out the japs, while incurring simply insignificant losses against the background of the Americans !! good
                Actually Vietnam and Korea perfectly showed what the "American soldier" is worth. negative
                1. Glory1974
                  8 November 2017 20: 21
                  0
                  This is the USSR for several weeks, the millionth land army of the Japanese seated in tough defense, including on the stone islands of the Kuril ridge - multiplied by zero !!

                  Yes, this is probably one of the greatest operations of Soviet military art. By 45, we learned how to fight properly.
                2. verner1967
                  verner1967 9 November 2017 08: 02
                  0
                  Quote: Mih1974
                  Shikoko shikoko japosek they killed?

                  Well, did they kill Shikoko? In the sense of the USSR?
                  Quote: Mih1974
                  This is the Soviet Union in a few weeks, the Mellion land army of the Japanese who sat in tight defense, including on the stone islands of the Kuril ridge - multiplied by zero !!

                  Learn to read and write, millionth, and why not one and a half millionth, as they wrote in books? From that army, memories remained alone to the 45th. In one I agree, it’s about Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands, there really was an army sitting there, not a reserve of the second category, but what is the scale?
                  Quote: Mih1974
                  Soviet troops with almost no support

                  without any support? There were practically no fights, read the literature. The most outstanding thing in this operation was the performance of multi-day marches and overcoming of a difficult geographical and climatic area. Here, no doubt, the operation was carried out brilliantly.
                  Quote: Mih1974
                  Actually Vietnam and Korea perfectly showed what the "American soldier" is worth.

                  and what did they show? Look at how many Chinese fought and how much they put. The Americans left Vietnam just like ours from Afghanistan, by order.
  15. valerei
    valerei 7 November 2017 19: 09
    +5
    Quote: ranger
    And the learning process, at first glance, can be tough and even cruel - more sweat - less blood ...

    There is such a quote: "I would be glad to serve - to be sick sick." If you have a pithecanthropus, but who has served for a year, throws dirty footcloths and orders them to be washed, then how is that? More sweat or less? Less blood or more? And what can this pithecanthropus teach young? One he can break, and the other embittered to lawlessness. But, it seems, it’s good if you become embittered, such as a good fighter, but this anger will necessarily pour out on the neighbor, and not on the likely enemy, because the neighbor is close, and the probable adversary is where? In short: - where the officer does not work, there is lawlessness, with all the ensuing consequences.
  16. Captain Nemo
    Captain Nemo 7 November 2017 20: 19
    +1
    I have always been interested in the question of how many “old men” in Afghanistan and Chechnya died from the “stray bullet”, abusing the spirits with which they later had to go to the “fighting” ....
    1. Black5Raven
      Black5Raven 7 November 2017 22: 46
      0
      No less than in Vietnam they died from "friendly fire and hand grenades." Quite a few
  17. Archon
    Archon 8 November 2017 02: 30
    +4
    my opinion. Remove hazing from the entire army for good. It can be left only to the very elite to some extent, but even that is undesirable.
    Difficult conditions can be provided with the beyond training of the entire team in difficult conditions and this will really unite the team. And offensive bullying on the contrary will set against each other. How can you be sure of a person who mocks you for a year? He just wants to destroy himself, purely on the animal. And such cases occur from time to time when an ordinary shoots out his colleagues and kills himself from despair. What assessment can there be? Either that this is a weak person, the psycho went crazy, or the person saw the enemy in his colleagues and destroyed the enemy, and then in order not to surrender to the enemy state, he took his own life. If you replace these grandfathers with a real enemy, then it turns out that such actions are a feat, and in the case of bullying - stupidity and idiocy.
    In the end, the Great Patriotic War, our ancestors won not by hazing, but by fortitude, love of the motherland, skill and cohesion.
    1. myobius59
      myobius59 8 November 2017 10: 46
      +3
      This is unrealistic. Hazing is FAVORABLE to the officers. Moreover, they strongly support and stimulate it. Where officers come to work in order to work, not relax and have fun, there is no hazing, or it runs in a "very easy form"
      To lazy officers, hazing is precisely the topic, all that they must do is for them "grandfathers".
      Therefore, it is necessary to begin with the fact that the officer staff FULFILL YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES.
      Until this is done, hazing will not go anywhere.
  18. Vasily Shlykov
    Vasily Shlykov 8 November 2017 16: 44
    0
    what hazing is this child’s fun in our construction battalion was entertained by putting cotton wool soaked in gasoline into the sleeping person’s toes and setting it on fire that was hazing, the man remained crippled
  19. Signalman17
    Signalman17 9 November 2017 06: 24
    0
    full-time country - full-time army, it’s even difficult to call this army a bunch of idiots and a sadyug !!!
  20. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 9 November 2017 18: 28
    0
    It was the one to whom he broke his jaw. Our grandfathers also have fun, for example, they put stools on the leg ... In my time, the division commander in Chebarkul was not given a general for two young self-arrows. He himself observed the pattern of issuing cowards and T-shirts after washing the platoon with a sergeant. It was a complete arctic fox! The young people asked in a whisper about us: what the hell is this in 1968 uniform? These are generally animals, students from fees! drinks
  21. Nic
    Nic 9 November 2017 19: 00
    +2
    I had a chance to read the best descriptions of hazing from the Russian classics in the description of the methods of "educating yard" landowners. The internal logic of such a "collective" is well shown in Lord of the Flies - it is a distraught kindergarten. Have you ever raised a dog or circled a horse? Is it possible to “educate” him by hazing methods? This person can still bear it, and the poor animal will simply turn into a trembling rag. Even in prison, this does not happen. Although the descriptions of the orders in the colonies for youngsters are often almost identical to hazing in the army. So what happens - are soldiers juvenile delinquents? And, say (purely as a clear example), the Finnish soldiers in the Second World War were good because they beat each other worse than the "damned red commissars"? There are many historical descriptions of the education and training of soldiers in real combat conditions - the severity and even cruelty of such methods does not at all equal bullying and humiliation. Although this happens, it’s not because of the need for training, but because of the conditions of the collective (for example, slaveholding or serfdom). As for the "civil society", the infantilization of its members leads to their loss of ability, and the humanization of funds for the education of someone else - even their own children, even indoor dogs. And if such a need arises, then in a fit of impotence, they sometimes simply kill the foster children, claiming that otherwise they will run and yap and poop around the room.
    As for the "cool grandfathers," I have never seen any equality between the ability of a given individual to mock his subordinates, and the ability to serve and command, rather the exact opposite. It's like working in the field - the most hardy and strongest and most reliable guys have nothing to do with the Schwarzeneggers and Grandfathers. In this sense, the old Soviet film Two in the Sands was recalled. Not a masterpiece of course, but it nevertheless shows quite accurately that the steepness for the Prison for youngsters (or for the temptation of women is also a popular measure nowadays) and the steepness in the wild are two different things. Let me give you an example with pirates - on the Internet it is not difficult to find a real prototype of Robinson Crusoe, who would not be a sailor Selkirk. Pirates landing on an island uninhabited or inhabited by aborigines almost always ended in the massacre and disappearance of gallant murderers, but skillful educated and, say, “god-fearing” people were able to build a rational and fair society both on uninhabited islands and even in Japanese concentration camps (to the best of of their capabilities) for the monkey is strong in the cage, and murderers .. well, you know. By the way, I recently listened here for the sake of interest Treasure Island in English - no romance for pirates - rather contempt and even pity. Well, also, “Teacher drank the globe” - how a real team is built, and not a flock of captive dogs, is very well shown in the book and completely distorted in the film, and THIS says a lot about the modern “ambivalent” state of mind in Russian society in general , and not just in the army!
  22. would
    would 11 November 2017 03: 10
    0
    brn521,

    In general, ignorance continues further

    No comment.


    Naturally, “without comment” because the medieval pikemen were required only to keep the system, be able to walk in it, keep the peak ahead. Well, they will also obey the commander who alone must understand what is happening. The simplest skills are possible, and when the commander dies, they will run away. They simply cannot exist as a unit because even a step was taken solely by order. And now, give everyone the knowledge of complex technical equipment, and much more complicated tactics of action (now you know that they are not standing in a dense box or a line in the middle of the field, it is fraught) and initiative on the battlefield, first aid skills and much more. But you do not know therefore compare.

    Then he goes around your stones, then he seeks back to Afghanistan. At the same time, he has tachycardia, gastritis, high blood pressure and insomnia. Would decide whether or not, put everything in a heap.


    Naturally, it’s you who are putting everything in a heap without even reading Wikipedia, I’m already silent about profile articles. Therefore, you are not aware that the symptoms of PSTD are extensive, but not all are found at once, and secondly ... yes. VERY often this happens. A person has a bunch of psychosomatics, and he is drawn back to war. I personally know a bunch of these. Is it logical? Yes, but mental illness obeys its logic.

    I cited the example of pikemen as an example of military stamina and organization. In response, you give an example of any rabble who has neither discipline nor unity of command.


    Already contradict yourself, then like this, then medieval armies

    These were not armies, but rabble. The clash of such armies was rarely a full-fledged war. From the strength of 5% of the composition was lost in battle, the rest were finished already during the flight.


    At the same time, you consider your native army a rare rabble of scumbags, which means that you don’t know anything at all

    To do this, you have to drag the soldier for a long time and tediously to carry out such an order. So that the results of such a training do not wash out the waves of adrenaline and constant stress. But why is it needed? If in combat conditions soldiers are able to open or cease fire only by order, this is a serious achievement.


    That is, in your opinion, so that the current Russian conscript bursting into the building does not kill women and children there like a crusader ... do you need to drag them for a long time? No comments. Chechnya, Afghanistan, Syria have shown that there are few such scumbags without brakes in the army even in the war, and that is why the Russian Army cannot be blamed for mass war crimes.

    "Multicellular" - units. And "unicellular" - battalions. What is the use of military specialists if they are not provided with well-trained infantry?


    Such that well-trained infantry is not capable of effectively conducting hostilities. Exactly they are suicide bombers, all they can do now is die. That is why in the modern army there is no drill as a system, I’m telling you as a servant.

    Lucky for you. Where did you live your life? if you kept so naive illusions? Here we have, for example, in the city there is a "pentagon"


    At the same time, of course, you don’t know what “social status” is and instead give an example of life in a natural ghetto, which are 2 big differences. You can be a worker and at the same time be an intimate agent, but you can be a worker and at the same time be a gopnik. But you apparently have very little experience due to your small age and have met with a small number of people.

    That's right, initiative is only within the framework of the task.


    A little earlier

    Heresy. Did you serve in the army? Initiative and mess are almost synonymous. The initiative is shown only by order.


    They realized that they were sleeping on the fact that they did not serve and sharply wrote another. Typically

    And the solution to your near-zero knowledge and fantasies is simple

    I am a pass. I didn’t enter the university I needed, and even without a military department, so as not to fly into Chechnya.


    That is, the one who has slanted out at a university at the fifth point while the others have served everyone here tells what the army should be.
  23. would
    would 12 November 2017 12: 49
    0
    AllXVahhaB,

    There are no such processes without a Leader!


    For you, as a person, apparently having no corresponding experience of life does not exist. In reality, to solve a simple and short-term task, a team can be built without clear hierarchical ties and subordination, without leaders and leadership. It’s just that all this is not needed. Moreover, the presence of a leader just does not contradict self-organization, I tell you this as a person who has been a participant more than once and a witness of how the leader was chosen, wisely, by all those involved, and not appointed from outside. Not to say that it would always be successful, but at least no less successful than when appointed from the outside. This, by the way, is the basics of the basics that are now taking place in schools on social studies.

    Again special cases. I saw how 6 healthy intelligent foreheads stood at attention and hands at the seams, and two frail damps checked them with “plywood”. And it was not in the army ...


    If you read the discussion, you would see my message and the following lines there

    Just because in reality, and not in your fantasies, social status as such does not affect a person’s personal qualities. The same "core" is either there or not, regardless of what class he or his parents belong to.


    But why read? After all, you can just get in and without understanding the discussion, try to participate in it.

    Where did I say that it makes no difference to me?


    Your words

    Who cares who for what purpose is building this herd?


    That is, based on the question, the difference is not clear to you. As I see it, it is still not clear.

    For whom for us? Why do you always distance yourself from others? Is this a sign of the intelligentsia?


    If you are unable to understand a simple sentence, then talking about something is pointless. If you do not understand, read it again and do not ask questions out of place. Well, if you still do not understand ... well, what else can I say.

    That is, instead of re-educating a person, bailing him, influencing ... You simply deprived him of housing? Somehow it’s not socialist)))
    Signed in their own impotence ...


    This is a very interesting opinion that an adult and capable person can be "re-educated, bail, influence" despite the fact that you are nobody and he can not even let you into the apartment. How old are you? Because everything that you write is full of children's idealism and lack of basic life experience. Well, I admit, I am powerless in tasks that I did not set for myself and as a result I did not fulfill. Especially in the tasks given by a child who does not understand the foundations of society. One way or another, I hope that you are not powerless and not hypocritical, and you bail every drunk, let him go home and successfully influence him. And then somehow it will turn out badly if you only write much.
    1. AllXVahhaB
      AllXVahhaB 12 November 2017 13: 57
      0
      Quote: rait
      as a person who has repeatedly been a participant and a witness of how the leader was chosen, wisely, all those involved, and not appointed from the outside.

      You are talking nonsense. Leaders are not elected or appointed! They become leaders themselves !!! The psychological warehouse is different!
      I get the impression, do not blame me that you do not live in the real world, but in what you invented ...
      Quote: rait
      That is, based on the question, the difference is not clear to you. As I see it, it is still not clear.

      I’m developing: for me there is a difference! Otherwise, I would not be on the side on which I am. But in principle, the organization of groups there is no difference! Is the idea clear?
      Quote: rait
      If you are unable to understand a simple sentence, then talking about something is pointless.

      And what do you continue the dialogue with? Or is it a monologue? Or as Ranevskaya said there, about something there "for eternity")))
      Quote: rait
      This is a very interesting opinion that an adult and capable person can be "re-educated, bail, influence" despite the fact that you are nobody and he can not even let you into the apartment. How old are you? Because everything that you write is full of children's idealism and lack of basic life experience. Well, I admit, I am powerless in tasks that I did not set for myself and as a result I did not fulfill. Especially in the tasks given by a child who does not understand the foundations of society. One way or another, I hope that you are not powerless and not hypocritical, and you bail every drunk, let him go home and successfully influence him. And then somehow it will turn out badly if you only write much.

      Actually it was a joke. But since you did not understand ... And how violently reacted))) So you suffer from childish infantilism ... yes
      1. would
        would 13 November 2017 02: 54
        0
        Wow, however, they ran away from their answer to the question! lol

        I did not take part in the massacre of civilians and I do not support this. No need to ascribe to me your fantasies ...


        A little higher, the words brn fully supported

        even those who held the guard banners of their commanders were killed
        You have very poor practical knowledge. And now they would have killed.


        What does anyone have to do with it? There is a real state of affairs! Well, in life like that!


        So the conversation who in life supports the massacres of the civilian population about anything is no longer possible. And with those who refuse their words as if nothing had happened even more so. Because he is either a potential ISIS who believes in his ideals, or a troll.

        Budanov is not an exception, this is the RULE, or rather the routine of real combat! In REAL, and not from books from which, most likely, you draw your ideas about the war ...


        Again, there are only two options from this replica:

        1. In real life, this is in your fantasies (which is most likely)
        2. You lied that you didn’t slaughter the civilian population and already in real life participated in the massacre and warmly support it, you think is right.

        Because no other option was given, the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation and the SA didn’t just do not participate in such things, but fought with them, so you could only know how it was “in real life” on the other side. Among the Mujahideen or ISIS who were engaged in this.

        However, you will run away from it headlong because you cannot adequately answer. You will either lie so that it will be visible to everyone, deny your own words again, or just as it was and before that you will not answer directly.

        Actually it was a joke. But since you did not understand ... And how violently reacted))) So you suffer from childish infantilism ...


        You look really bad after answering your remark? Need to somehow make excuses? At your service is "he d urak", say that the opponent is "d q urak", turn the arrows and everything will pass! The best communication courses in kindergarten only here! laughing
        1. Sedoi zmei
          Sedoi zmei 16 November 2017 09: 22
          0
          Quote: rait
          Because no other option was given, the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation and the SA didn’t just not participate in such things, but fought with them

          I’ll tell you a secret - when during the day, pretending to be white sheep, at night he takes AKMs and knives from the wells and goes to “cut the infidels” - orders to “completely clean out” were given more than once!
          1. would
            would 16 November 2017 12: 28
            0
            And this is not a secret, and this was done not at all at the level of the massacre, but in a tough and organized manner. In the military. And not always, but only for especially overgrown.
    2. AllXVahhaB
      AllXVahhaB 12 November 2017 14: 03
      0
      Here's another question: did you even serve on an emergency?
      Just do not go away from the answer ...
  24. Glory1974
    12 November 2017 16: 36
    0
    AllXVahhaB,
    That is, the main task of pedagogy is pedagogy itself? belay
    And I thought - the result

    You are not thinking correctly. Pedagogy is a process of training and education.
    And for an individual to want to learn and be educated, there is an incentive. The result of pedagogy (pedagogical influences) is a trained and educated individual. In the process, a number of tasks are solved to achieve the result.