Military Review

Why did Peter I struggle with the term "Muscovy"

112



There is historical the myth that there was no Russia or Russia before Peter the Great was called the territory inhabited by Great Russians Muscovy, and only Peter the Great abolished this name in 1721, establishing the new name of the country - the Russian Empire.

This myth, I must say, has a long history of life in the past, and even now it is used not so much to change history, but in the context of the current political situation. Roughly speaking, this is another debate about the past, which is actually about the present.

Muscovy

In order to understand where Peter I is, what he renamed and where, you must first turn to the very term Moscovia. Originally, the name Muscovy was used by Western historians and geographers to refer to Moscow and the principality of Moscow from the 15th century. This term was used in parallel with the names "Ruthenium", "Russia" or "Rus", and did not have a negative connotation.

For example, in the XVI century, the Catholic cardinal and historian Cesare Baronio wrote: “Muscovy got its name from the name of the river and the capital located on it, being a part of Russia,” and the 17th century German historian George Horn pointed out: “Muscovites are Russian, only so by the name of the capital of their state ".

Such explanations were required first of all by the Europeans in order to avoid political confusion, since very quickly Muscovy began to be used as a propaganda name. And the efforts to spread this name was made by the Polish-Lithuanian propaganda.

The fact is that part of the Russian lands from the XIII-XIV centuries was part of the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. On the Polish maps, they were designated as “Russian Voivodship” with the capital in Lviv and, in the opinion of the Poles, these territories had no relation to Moscow now and could not have it.

Tsar of All Russia

However, in Russia, which, according to the Europeans, was “only” Muscovy, there were fundamentally different plans for this. And in 1500-1503, during the Russo-Lithuanian war, Tsar Ivan III officially took the title "Sovereign of All Russia".

On the essence, it was not just some kind of “new beautiful title”, it was a political program, concluded in one phrase. Ivan III thus declared urbi et orbi, which claims to unite all the Russian lands, and accordingly to the legitimacy of his power over these lands.

Moreover, it was from that moment that the propaganda of Muscovy, separate from Russia, intensified so much that after the conclusion of the Brest Union in 1596, even a number of Orthodox authors began to speak of “Muscovites” and “Russians” as different ethnic groups. But, again, this was the result of many years of propaganda work, the aim of which was to prove that the Moscow princes did not have a historical right to rule over all Russian lands.

However, although the very name of "Muscovy" and became widespread in Europe, but it is directly correlated, as a synonym for "Russia", and not as some kind of separate territory from Moscow. For example, the Austrian diplomat Sigismund von Herberstein in the XV century directly reported that Muscovy is the main state of Russia.

Interestingly, in Russia itself, the word Muscovy became widespread only in the 18th century, and precisely in the historical context. It, for example, was used to designate "pre-Peter the Great Russia", as something not so large-scale and not as majestic as the Russian Empire of Peter. That is, again for propaganda purposes. More Muscovy began to call all the same region of Moscow and its environs.

Muscovy again

The Renaissance of the term itself and the propaganda campaign in connection with the impossibility of the succession of Russian rulers over all Russian lands occurred in the XIX century, and again in Poland, and then everywhere in Europe. And it was then that the story of how Tsar Peter renamed the country began to form.

Then the date appears, 1721 year. By the way, somewhat deviating from the topic, it is worth noting that this myth about Muscovy again became widespread in our time. This time in Ukraine. Now "Ukraine is the real Russia, and Russia is Muscovy." However, as was said above, the entire history of Muscovy is not a polemic on the subject of history, but political propaganda.

Peter I

But back to Peter, and in the 1721 year. This year, Tsar Peter became the Emperor of All-Russia. He became them for a reason, and in the context of the fact that 30 August 1721, according to the old style, Russia and Sweden concluded the Nishtadt peace treaty, according to which our country got access to the Baltic Sea and the territory of Ingria, part of Karelia, Estonia and Livonia.

In general, this was the very “window to Europe”, which made Russia already one of the European superpowers of that time. And it was logical to raise the status of the Russian tsar to the All-Russian Emperor, which Peter underlined by changing his title.

At the same time, it is known that Russian diplomats from the time of Peter actively fought with the “double name” of our state, bringing to Europeans that the use of the term Muscovy in relation to Russia is incompetent, that Muscovy is only a small part of a huge country.

But due to the fact that propaganda myths - weapon universal and non-historical, from time to time someone remembers this story and interprets it in such a way that "before Peter, there was no Russia, and if it was, it was outside of Muscovy."

But, as we see, both Russians and many Europeans never made “Muscovy” a separate state and ethnic entity, but they considered it to be either a part of Russia or a synonym for the name of our country.
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  1. Grandfather
    Grandfather 5 November 2017 06: 11 New
    +5
    Why did Peter I struggle with the term "Muscovy"
    he fought a lot with something. an ambiguous personality. Russia brought a lot of good, and frankly harmful, from the Navy to the first tobacco factory. From the "window to Europe", to cruelty to the people.
    1. Cat
      Cat 5 November 2017 06: 52 New
      +6
      The reign of Peter I is nothing but a quasistation of contradictions. An enviable farsightedness has taken place next to obvious myopia. He bribes another in Peter, he was a passionate person, he knew how to follow a dream. His stiffness repels Peter, that for the sake of his goal he is ready to pay any price. Literally any - up to the life of his own son and heir. And again, a chain of associations - for the sake of purpose, he is ready to lay down his head, not gelling himself or his colleagues. And so on to infinity.
      For this I want to dwell only on the obvious pluses of Peter.
      After himself, he left:
      A window to Europe and a window to the Caspian.
      Fleet and regular army.
      Industry.
      Education, etc.
      1. ammunition
        ammunition 6 November 2017 03: 49 New
        +1
        Quote: Kotischa
        After himself, he left:


        And he left the name of the country - Russia.
        ----------------------
        In the first newspaper from the 1703 of the “Vedomosti” year, the country is referred to as the “Moscow Kingdom”.
        http://ptiburdukov.ru/История/на
        1. Gopnik
          Gopnik 7 November 2017 12: 55 New
          0
          The name "Russia" before Peter was
        2. rexby63
          rexby63 9 November 2017 12: 58 New
          0
          I didn’t find by your link that in the texts of the first “Vedomosti” the country would be called the “Moscow kingdom”. And all - found. Excuse me.
    2. Vend
      Vend 7 November 2017 10: 28 New
      +1
      Quote: Dead Day
      Why did Peter I struggle with the term "Muscovy"
      he fought a lot with something. an ambiguous personality. Russia brought a lot of good, and frankly harmful, from the Navy to the first tobacco factory. From the "window to Europe", to cruelty to the people.

      Like any other strong ruler of the state.
  2. bald
    bald 5 November 2017 06: 48 New
    +7
    As they just didn’t call us: "... who were called Rusich, Rosich, Rus, or Rus, dew in the first millennium AD, scientists hypothesize, make assumptions. (Auth. Not Izv.) --- Slavs, we Africa, the Slavs and the political background of the drum.
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 5 November 2017 08: 13 New
      +4
      Quote: bald
      As we were not called: ...

      Great Tartaria - Empire of Rus. V.V. Putin: people who want to devote life to their country, without knowledge of the true past of their homeland, it’s simply not possible to do this in a qualified and competent way ...


      For me, Peter 1 is, first of all, the person who stole 5508 of the years of our history and legitimized serfdom (slavery).
      1. bald
        bald 5 November 2017 08: 23 New
        0
        Quite interesting and, again, the political motive, but what else to call? After all, this is one of the small episodes of history.
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 5 November 2017 08: 25 New
          +5
          Quote: bald
          After all, this is one of the small episodes of history.

          Indeed, for the universe 5508 years before Peter's history is an instant.
          1. bald
            bald 5 November 2017 08: 44 New
            +2
            Scientists historians still can not come to a consensus. Debri stories. These names went after Vyatichi. "... Vyatichi is a union of East Slavic tribes who lived in the upper and middle reaches of the Oka River in the second half of the first millennium AD." And at the expense of Tartaria, they again argue. Either from the Tatars who inhabited Siberia, or from the god Tartaros ("hell, hell, the underworld".).
            1. Boris55
              Boris55 5 November 2017 09: 08 New
              +3
              Quote: bald
              Scientists historians still can not come to a consensus.

              And for that, the same “thank you” to Petruch for destroying all pre-Christian records.
              1. bald
                bald 5 November 2017 10: 11 New
                +2
                Yes - there were a lot of fires. True, many libraries still can not find.
            2. ver_
              ver_ 6 November 2017 07: 16 New
              +4
              ..tatar, Khazarin, hozak, Cossack - equestrian warrior .. Tatars - equestrian squad- cavalry ..
              Only in 1920, Ulyanov = Lenin = Form by a resolution of the Central Executive Committee called Volga Bulgars-Tatars - (having legalized nationality - Tatar) .. Also in 1920, with the filing of Ulyanov = Blanca, a new state appeared - Mongolia .. After that, it became easy to defame historical events .. Substitute the concepts of Mogul and Mongolia .., the horse army to nationality ...
              1. bald
                bald 6 November 2017 08: 24 New
                0
                An interesting fact, I didn’t even know, thanks.
                1. ver_
                  ver_ 9 November 2017 07: 27 New
                  +1
                  In January 1920, a few years after the Bolsheviks came to power, the Politburo supported the formation of the Tatar Republic. A bit later, the All-Russian Central Executive Committee announced the Decree of May 27, 1920, in which it established a new autonomy and determined the structure of the apparatus of state power in the future republic. It was necessary to create a CEC, which was to deal with the election of deputies to the local Council and the Council of People's Commissars. - Read more on FB.ru: http://fb.ru/article/281712/tatarskaya-assr-obraz
                  ovanie-i-istoriya
              2. andj61
                andj61 7 November 2017 09: 13 New
                0
                Quote: ver_
                ..tatar, Khazarin, hozak, Cossack - equestrian warrior .. Tatars - equestrian squad- cavalry ..
                Only in 1920, Ulyanov = Lenin = Form by a resolution of the Central Executive Committee called Volga Bulgars-Tatars - (having legalized nationality - Tatar) .. Also in 1920, with the filing of Ulyanov = Blanca, a new state appeared - Mongolia .. After that, it became easy to defame historical events .. Substitute the concepts of Mogul and Mongolia .., the horse army to nationality ...

                Enchanting! But what about the song - a song about the coachman and the unclean elder of the Tatar? wink
                After all, she was long before 1920! Yes, and in the wars of Peter and Catherine and the invasion of Napoleon Tatars as light cavalry, along with the Bashkirs and Kalmyks are mentioned. And it’s just as the nationality of the soldiers, and not just as warriors.
                By the way, Lenin had nothing to do with the All-Russian Central Executive Committee - he was the chairman of the Council of People's Commissars,
                1. ver_
                  ver_ 7 November 2017 16: 03 New
                  +1
                  ..report, maybe he didn’t, but no one would have risked not fulfilling his order, in the government of Ulyanov = Blanca 85% were Jews - these are Putin’s words .. Look, my dear, when was Tataria founded and whose decree ... Broaden your horizons .. And how the Tatars tried after 91 years to return the old name ..
                2. Settlement Oparyshev
                  Settlement Oparyshev 7 November 2017 20: 57 New
                  +2
                  Lenin, according to Averchenko’s writings, could have put the CEC on the Central Committee in such a way that it got under the table with fear. PresNSK, it’s free from work or vice versa.
                3. ver_
                  ver_ 9 November 2017 05: 09 New
                  +1
                  ... just like cavalry, and not like nationality ...
          2. andj61
            andj61 6 November 2017 18: 17 New
            0
            Quote: Boris55
            Quote: bald
            After all, this is one of the small episodes of history.

            Indeed, for the universe 5508 years before Peter's history is an instant.

            And what is the relationship between these figures, which are the difference between the reckoning from the creation of the world in the Orthodox tradition and the birth of Christ to the history of Russia and the “concealment” of 5508 years of this history from the masses? And what does Peter have to do with it? By the way, the Russian Orthodox Church is still counting from the creation of the world ...
      2. Alexandra
        Alexandra 5 November 2017 09: 12 New
        +7
        Peter once again abolished slavery (servility) in Russia, equating the servants' servants and purchases with the serfs by their decrees in 1721-1722, and he did not legalize serfdom, but his father, Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich, in Sudebnik in 1649. And serfdom in fact is not slavery, because, unlike a slave, a serf peasant had the right to own property, money and means of production ..... About 5508 years of history (from the Old Testament "creation of the world") - a noble pearl. In general, controversial Your opinion, very controversial ...
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 5 November 2017 09: 24 New
          +4
          Quote: Alexander A
          And serfdom in fact is not slavery, because, unlike the slave, the serf peasant had the right to own property

          Father began, and son finished. Forms of slavery are improved to this day. Unlike the previous slaves, the current ones are transferred to self-service.

          Quote: Alexander A
          About 5508 years of history (from the Old Testament "creation of the world") - a noble pearl.

          You did not read the decree of Peter on this occasion?
          In 1699, Peter I issued a decree on calendar reform
          “On December 15, according to the old style of 7207 of the summer from the creation of the world, or 1699 of the year of the birth of Christ, throughout the Ivanovo Square in the Kremlin, heralds shouted the decree of Tsar Peter“ stop making fools of people on this day. ”This is a laudable intention for the ruler, however, to politics or the economy there, and just to the calendar. After 31 of December this year, 7207 of summer will come, wrote Great Peter, 1 of January 1700 of the year, and it, and not 1 of September, as before, should be considered the beginning of the year. "And as a sign of good beginnings and fun wish each other a Happy New Year, wish in matters of welfare and family welfare in honor of the New Year uchinyat ornaments from fir trees ... And adults drinking and massacre did not commit -.. on the other days of the missing "."


          And pay attention to the dates on the old gravestones. The so-called "transition period" used dates as old summercalculus and new - godocalculus.
          1. Alexandra
            Alexandra 5 November 2017 09: 31 New
            +6
            I read Peter’s decree, and I know a lot about his reforms. According to the translation of the calendar from the Old Testament “from the creation of the world” to the calendar “from the Nativity of Christ” generally accepted in Europe at that time, there is no “Theft of 5508 years of OUR history”. Whose story, let me ask? Is the history of the Slavs described in the Old Testament? The Old Testament calendar in Russia also existed not so long, by historical standards, only from the moment of adoption of Christianity
            1. Boris55
              Boris55 5 November 2017 09: 34 New
              0
              Quote: Alexander A
              I read Peter’s decree, and I know a lot about his reforms.

              Then why do we write nonsense?
              Quote: Alexander A
              According to the translation of the calendar from the Old Testament "from the creation of the world" ... The Old Testament calendar in Russia also existed

              Six thousand years ago? laughing
              1. Alexandra
                Alexandra 5 November 2017 09: 45 New
                +6
                Ah ... I get it. Are you like a local troll? A lover of snatching phrases out of context? My dear, I can smear your opinion on this issue with a thin layer on any surface, reasonably and without rolling on the person. Have a nice day
                1. SMP
                  SMP 5 November 2017 11: 07 New
                  +4
                  Alexander, Boris is not a troll, he just didn’t read the history of religions
                  1. Boris55
                    Boris55 5 November 2017 12: 01 New
                    0
                    Quote: SMP
                    Alexander, Boris is not a troll, he just didn’t read the history of religions


                    Download books in electronic form:
                    vodaspb.ru/index.php?dn=down&id=130&to=op
                    en
                  2. venaya
                    venaya 5 November 2017 14: 18 New
                    +2
                    Quote: SMP
                    .. I just didn’t read the history of religions

                    Please enlighten in such a complex and confusing question. In the book of Bockle published in Russian in 1837, he calls the figure of 50 thousand of all kinds of religions he studied. How many of them have you been able to learn?
                    1. SMP
                      SMP 6 November 2017 23: 15 New
                      +1
                      What was that? belay
                      What are you talking about? What has Buckle published in his entire life?

                      1. Before getting smart, take the trouble to add the title of the book, the initials, the publisher.
                      2. And who exactly is Bokle ?, the Christ of history? religious scholar? that is, without reference to this author, everything was lost;

                      Quote: SMP
                      .. I just didn’t read the history of religions


                      Boris is a good friend of mine, we’ve been chatting with him for more than half a year, what can you enlighten about?

                      Your statement in the days of the USSR was drawn to the expression said as pulled into a puddle.
                      No meaning, no punctuation, no connection between sentences.
                      It’s what you need to be a running victim of EG so that HU.... a dignity to write, a masterpiece, such a long time ago did not work.

                      And so ..... on one monograph of research it takes on average two days, if you trust the source 100%, if you double-check while checking with others for a week, taking into account the loading of other books.
                      Total will be an average of three days of the day for the monograph of one study, 3x50 will receive 000 days.

                      There are 365 days in a year, in ten years
                      3.65 thousand days, in fifty years we will receive
                      18 thousand 250 days,
                      for 100 years we get 36 thousand 500 days.

                      That is, if I devote even one day to one study, then I will have to spend 50 years on 000 studies.

                      venaya Yesterday, 14:18 ↑


                      I certainly understand that Putin and the Levans ruined the Russian education, but not as much?

                      request fool belay
                      Are you few other sites? Or, imagine yourself a great military strategist? Cho are rubbing on in
                      Victim of EG, pppipets this is the type ...
              2. SMP
                SMP 5 November 2017 11: 05 New
                +6
                Boris Alexander told you the full truth, the Old Believers for a very long time lived on the Old Testament calendar for 7000 years from the creation of the world.
                alas, this is a fact.
            2. venaya
              venaya 5 November 2017 14: 14 New
              +4
              Quote: Alexander A
              the translation of the calendar from the Old Testament “from the creation of the world” to the calendar “from the Nativity of Christ” generally accepted in Europe at that time is not “Theft of 5508 years of OUR history”. Whose story, let me ask? Is the history of the Slavs described in the Old Testament? The Old Testament calendar in Russia also existed not so long, by historical standards, only from the moment of adoption of Christianity

              My friend, yes, did you yourself at least a little understand what you wrote here? What else is the "Old Testament"? This term exists only from the moment of the creation of a certain “Church Slavonic language”, which God forbidden only in the XNUMXth century. Check on the calendar what you write here. By the way, what year was the Torah written in? Do you have any suggestions on this? So far, originals have been found no earlier than the XNUMXth century. And what is this term: "calendar from the Old Testament "from the creation of the world"". A more accurate and complete determination of the time on this calendar: 7526th summer from the Creation in the Star Temple. And where does God know where the new-made version of Christianity came from, written by the way at first in Hebrew. And when did this very Hebrew appear? Is it really 7526 years ago? Maybe someday you will learn to think with your own head, and not religious zombies brain brain! By the way, when the term "Slavs" appeared, the linguistics experts also call the XNUMXth century. Do you have any other data? So the calendar, if it had anything to do with Christianity, was not to this, a clear remake, but to a much earlier one, about which there were too few traces. Watch what you write here, and please be more careful, do not confuse people.
              1. Alexandra
                Alexandra 5 November 2017 17: 33 New
                +2
                I can’t keep up with your thought, alas. However, you did not bother to analyze the root cause of my post. Boris-55 expressed the idea that Peter stupidly stole 5508 years of our history, replacing the Old Testament reckoning with the new-fashioned reckoning from the birth of I. Christ. He took it, and with one stroke of the pen threw out fifty-five centuries of our history. Awesome passage, which I could not pass, alas, could not. About zombies with certain religious tales is not for me. An atheist to the marrow of bones.
                1. venaya
                  venaya 5 November 2017 21: 40 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Alexander A
                  .. Peter stupidly stole 5508 years of our history, replacing the Old Testament reckoning with the newfangled while reckoning from christmas AND.Of Christ ..

                  You still do not understand the reason for my post. Well, if you are an atheist, then why the hell do you use the newly-made terms that God forbid in the XNUMXth century, after all, this term is from Hebrew, in which all this religion is mainly written in translation from the Church Slavonic language. The original name of this calendar from the creation of the World in the Star Temple is the original - and where did you find the link to the "Old Testament" here? After all, in those distant days, there was no way in the project. This term is ancient, purely Vedic. Please note that almost all religions known today have Vedic roots in their foundations, as modern research in this area speaks about. Knowledge. I myself do not really understand how many years Russia is based on history, but either the past of Russia or the ancestors of Russia is huge, and this calendar is not the first in Russia, there were other, more ancient ones, as M. Lomonosov spoke about, for which he was sent to the death penalty, though the execution then did not pass quickly. This is a terrible thing, which is still more often ignored. So please do not name the calendar for which the 7526th summer is now "Old Testament"- this is a clear newspeak on the basis of a foreign religion. The name" From the Creation of the World in a Star Temple "will be better and more accurate - such a term is obviously Russian-language in the first place, that is, based on our Vedas, and less offends the vast past of Russia and is itself more accurate By the way, for yourself, specify in what years in the west (not in Russia) the first of "christian", so to say," Julian calendar "- I think that the answer to this question of many here will surprise and sober up immeasurably.
                2. SMP
                  SMP 6 November 2017 23: 33 New
                  0
                  In vain spend time on such people, I’m neither an atheist nor a Christian, when I studied three three years ago, I still remembered the New Testament almost by heart, the four canonical Gospels, the deeds, the epistles of the apostles, now more than half have already been forgotten, have not been opened for a long time, and this is forgotten naturally.
                  And when you start to read such clever men who didn’t even grab a pawn, you don’t pay attention, except for frank delirium.

                  The Old and New Testaments are written very complex syllable, this type at one time will not be able to master even two or three chapters, that would at least remember something, and only then understand from what he remembered.
                  For it is very hard to read. And he argues .... laughing
                  This is like Schonder from Dog’s heart))))
                  1. andj61
                    andj61 7 November 2017 08: 50 New
                    +1
                    Quote: SMP
                    In vain spend time on such people, I’m neither an atheist nor a Christian, when I studied three three years ago, I still remembered the New Testament almost by heart, the four canonical Gospels, the deeds, the epistles of the apostles, now more than half have already been forgotten, have not been opened for a long time, and this is forgotten naturally.
                    And when you start to read such clever men who didn’t even grab a pawn, you don’t pay attention, except for frank delirium.

                    The Old and New Testaments are written very complex syllable, this type at one time will not be able to master even two or three chapters, that would at least remember something, and only then understand from what he remembered.
                    For it is very hard to read. And he argues .... laughing
                    This is like Schonder from Dog’s heart))))

                    good And spelling, and stylistic and punctuation errors. Apparently, in three or four years, not only the Old and New Testaments have been weathered from your mind ... If this happens, then another five years from now - it's scary to think what will happen! what
                    And "Schonder from Dog’s Heart" is a masterpiece in general! bully hi
                    1. SMP
                      SMP 7 November 2017 10: 41 New
                      0
                      Please enlighten in such a complex and confusing question. In the book of Bockle published in Russian in 1837, he calls the figure of 50 thousand of all kinds of religions he studied. How many of them have you been able to learn?



                      Do you think this is a normal person wrote?


                      Monograph (from the Greek. Μόνος - “one, one” and γράφειν - “write”) is a scientific work in the form of a book with in-depth study of one topic [1] or several closely related topics [1].



                      There are 365 days in a year, if you can read one of Buckle’s research in one day, then
                      100 years, you can read only 36 thousand of his works
                      fool

                      Seriously, the Old Testament did not fundamentally study A. Nevzorov enough, I leaned on the New Testament. And I can prove it online to you

                      andj61 Today, 08:50 ↑

                      each comment is timed; if you use the network, then physically you can’t meet it.

                      I understand your sarcasm, just a serious topic on other branches can be trolled, but not on the historical events of our country.

                      For example, 7003, the first date was set
                      from the creation of the world.
                      The second date of 1586 was set
                      from the Nativity of Christ.
                      That's the whole mystery is two dates the first biblical second New Testament.
                      I’m now trying to decide where to start studying paganism because there are almost no sources, everything on the network is crap, apparently the good old libraries will have to be stormed.
      3. sabakina
        sabakina 5 November 2017 13: 07 New
        +6
        Boris55, did you live 5508 years ago? Cossack mishandled ...
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 5 November 2017 13: 11 New
          0
          Quote: sabakina
          Boris55, did you live 5508 years ago? Cossack mishandled ...

          I didn’t live a hundred years ago, so what?
          Type in the search engine: "old summercalculus on monuments. "
          1. sabakina
            sabakina 5 November 2017 13: 13 New
            +5
            The same thing was written on the fence, and there was firewood.
            1. Boris55
              Boris55 5 November 2017 13: 15 New
              0
              Quote: sabakina
              The same thing was written on the fence, and there was firewood.

              And on the gravestones (my post above) buried clergy - how? laughing
              In your opinion, and Peter did not issue a decree on the transition from summerestimates on godocalculus?

              1. sabakina
                sabakina 5 November 2017 13: 21 New
                +5
                Well, then the topic will be.
                1. Boris55
                  Boris55 5 November 2017 13: 23 New
                  0
                  Quote: sabakina
                  Well, then the topic will be.

                  Got it - I’m crawling away. wassat
                2. bald
                  bald 6 November 2017 11: 40 New
                  0
                  Hello! - How they zadobili me on this topic. After all, everyone writes from the source, but anyway, a dispute arises, just like historians do. And you just put in the subject, and even my one of the best storytellers of jokes - defused good
          2. andj61
            andj61 7 November 2017 09: 04 New
            +1
            Quote: Boris55
            Quote: sabakina
            Boris55, did you live 5508 years ago? Cossack mishandled ...

            I didn’t live a hundred years ago, so what?
            Type in the search engine: "old summercalculus on monuments. "

            In the pictures presented by you it is not at all clear what kind of monuments they are, WHEN these monuments were erected, whether they were renewed, and if the inscription did not change.
            Next - a little lower monument on the death of Boris Godunov in 1605.

            In Europe, the reckoning from the Nativity of Christ was adopted thanks to the efforts of Scaliger (died in 1609) only at the end of the 16th century - in 1582. It is unlikely that in Russia followed the decree of the pope. In addition, the inscription is clearly modern, in a modern font - without poles, feathers, etc.
    2. igordok
      igordok 5 November 2017 08: 52 New
      +2
      Quote: bald
      As we were not called:

      Just add.
      1. Boris55
        Boris55 5 November 2017 09: 06 New
        0
        Quote: igordok
        Just add.

        About Peter. It stands in a swamp and there is nothing so special that the swamp sucks it.
        1. sabakina
          sabakina 5 November 2017 13: 09 New
          +5
          For you, the whole of Russia is a swamp, and you are the first frog in that swamp.
          1. Boris55
            Boris55 5 November 2017 13: 13 New
            +1
            Quote: sabakina
            For you, the whole of Russia is a swamp, and you are the first frog in that swamp.

            Nickname matching laughing
            1. sabakina
              sabakina 5 November 2017 13: 15 New
              +5
              Like your layout.
      2. bald
        bald 6 November 2017 11: 56 New
        0
        I put a plus, but I am convinced - the question is not closed - the years do not coincide. So, personally for yourself.
  3. Olgovich
    Olgovich 5 November 2017 06: 54 New
    10
    . Now “Ukraine is a real Russia,


    And at the same time: "Ukraine is not Russia!". Poor pan-cookers - their name was "stolen" and they are now forced to be called "Ukrainians." How can they not tear the roof? Although vomiting, still .....
    1. Cat
      Cat 5 November 2017 07: 46 New
      +9
      Dear Olegovich, pity the wretched!
      What to take with them "jumpers", everything that was under the pots has already been shaken.
      By the way, to me all their jumpers cause an association with bunnies for the new year in kindergarten.
      Jump-jump, jump-jump, and ears jump-jump!
      And now the little pig from the fairy tale "Three Little Pigs" will tell the grandfather a frost poem! Petya, where is your chair? Petya, I told someone, put "half a liter" in a bag, this is not for you, but for Santa Claus!
      1. Curious
        Curious 5 November 2017 14: 14 New
        +2
        Dear Kitty! Okay Olgovich, according to your example, you can only regret him, but you, like a sane person, what happens to your sanity when the word Ukraine appears in the text?
        1. Cat
          Cat 5 November 2017 15: 29 New
          +6
          Dear Victor, answer me, please, what to do when your right arm is cut off without anesthesia?
          When you were born and grew up in a vast country, and your classmate from “Square” says kotsap, and you know that Kiev is the mother of Russian cities, and you go from here through the woods a descendant of Finno-Ugric peoples to your Tatarstan?
          When you call the service in Ukraine, and the call is ringtone march division wafen ss dead head?
          .........
          You can continue for a long time, but the realization that the brother is no longer the brother, but the right hand will cling to your throat tomorrow.
          Forgive Victor for the emotions, but he treats Ukraine as a nursery group of a kindergarten, with bunnies and a piglet, more simply! Maybe they will grow and everything will change for the better.
          R.s. Russian people are patient. From my own experience I know the patience of many. But once the thread breaks, even the metal "gets tired." Bulba talk about "some kind of Churek-stan" reaction was different. But when the right hand ...... what do you expect from us.
          1. Curious
            Curious 5 November 2017 15: 33 New
            +1
            Thanks for the answer. I’m going to jump in a saucepan, I have to correspond to the description.
            1. Cat
              Cat 6 November 2017 07: 35 New
              +3
              Victor, please do not play the "fool." With all things equal, you cannot kill my personal respect for you personally! Do not even try! But do not force people to love the people who unleashed the slaughter in the southeast of Ukraine!
              It may sound pathetic, but between me and them the blood of people who are not to blame for their Russian as their native language.
  4. parusnik
    parusnik 5 November 2017 07: 33 New
    +4
    But, as we see, both Russians and many Europeans never made “Muscovy” a separate state and ethnic entity, but they considered it to be either a part of Russia or a synonym for the name of our country.
    ... Thank God, sorted out ...
    1. Cat
      Cat 5 November 2017 08: 04 New
      +9
      Another smiled at me!
      Our modern scientists, for some reason, always take for stating the fact of the appearance of the Empire - this is a victory in the Northern War or "cutting through the window to Europe." At the same time, trying not to notice that almost from the time of Ivan IV, Russia was actually the largest state in Europe. In the future, this rule remained throughout its existence. By the way, the Russian Empire and the USSR only occasionally inferior in size to the territory of the British Empire. Russia, the Russian Empire, the USSR were originally multinational and multi-confessional states. So the decision of Peter on the adoption of the title of Emperor was not a contrast to the political slander of the Polish riffraff, but simply bringing the title in line with European standards.
      The same title of Ivan the Terrible - the Tsar, dates back to the title of Roman emperors Caesar, Caesar, etc., and not Rex in its original interpretation.
      1. Seal
        Seal 9 November 2017 16: 20 New
        0
        Quote: Kotischa
        So the decision of Peter on the adoption of the title of Emperor was not a contrast to the political slander of the Polish riffraff, but simply bringing the title in line with European standards.

        What are these "European standards"? In France the king, in England the king, in Spain the king, in Denmark the king, in Poland the king, in Bavaria the king, in Sweden the king. There are no emperors on the Apennine Peninsula either. There is only one emperor in Europe - the Holy Roman Emperor of the German nation.

        By the way, how do you explain that everyone who was before Peter the Great (and he himself spent most of his reign) was named by his first name, but Pyotr Alekseevich himself eventually became the number one Peter the Great, his wife was called "Catherine I", grandson Peter was called "Peter II", and then they went again: "Anna Ioannovna" (and not "Anna I"), "Anna Leopoldovna" (and not "Anna II"), "Elizabeth Petrova" (and not "Elizabeth I") and only Peter Fedorovich went down in history as Peter III. Well and further behind it, too, everything is already numbered.

        Quote: Kotischa
        The same title of Ivan the Terrible - the Tsar, dates back to the title of Roman emperors Caesar, Caesar, etc., and not Rex in its original interpretation.

        Sire (French sire, English sire) - a form of appeal to the monarch in Britain and Belgium. Previously also used in France, Italy, Germany and Spain.
        The term "sire" is much closer to the term "king" than the term "Caesar".
        Well, unless of course we do not consider the Khokhlyat form "Tse Z (Ts) ar" hi
  5. Gardamir
    Gardamir 5 November 2017 08: 36 New
    +4
    winners write a story. So everyone was convinced that the archers are a weak army, and the Preobrazhensky are the very most. Only the Strelets army existed for a long time after Peter .. Yes, and if you do not take modern films. It’s not just the Swedes who transformed them.
    But Petruha was a pretty thief. Where did our calendar go? Where many letters from the alphabet disappeared. He raised the economy with shaving beards.
    1. Cat
      Cat 5 November 2017 15: 34 New
      +3
      Just stupidly in the internet read the dates of the foundation of the Ural mining plants.
      1. Gardamir
        Gardamir 5 November 2017 17: 05 New
        +1
        stupidly read in the internet
        I read how you advised "stupidly." Yes, something was being built, I'm talking about something else. Everything Russian was destroyed. It was planted western. Under Yeltsin, something was also being built, for example, gas pipelines stretching to Europe.
    2. Looking for
      Looking for 5 November 2017 18: 36 New
      +3
      Call your grandfather a father, son, grandson. And for us he is Peter the Great.
  6. Settlement Oparyshev
    Settlement Oparyshev 5 November 2017 09: 55 New
    +1
    The engraving shows Peter1 returning from Europe, suffering from tropical diseases who does not indulge in Russian and is special in boarding, while a younger man with the specialty of a carpenter was leaving.
    It is believed that even if Moscow rose, it was that it collected tithes from the surrounding Lands in favor of the Horde. Hence the attitude of Muscovites to other peoples. It has survived to this day.
    Regarding the serfs. Where are the same fortresses to which the peasants were assigned? Only traces of tens of thousands of fortresses remain. But no one writes about them. As if there were no fortresses.
    it is depressing that history is taken seriously, some tales, tales with such details that one is struck by. The battles are described, Smolensk Kutuzov, who were not even in Smolensk. England now does not particularly award the heroes of Donbass, but in 1814. richly awarded many military men of the Russian army. For whom did they fight then? For Rus, for whose Russia? Hardly. Of course, not all historians rewrite each other, there are serious logical and understandable studies. Well, okay, the main thing is and who needs it without information will stay.
    Battles Description of the battles of 1612 draw on the battles of 1812.
    1. Looking for
      Looking for 5 November 2017 18: 41 New
      +2
      By the way, what kind of fortresses are you writing about. It seems that you think that the term is serfdom came from the concept of fortress = castle. Fortification.
      1. Settlement Oparyshev
        Settlement Oparyshev 5 November 2017 22: 29 New
        0
        The historian Sidorov and others claim that in Siberia from a plane you can see the skeletons of star fortresses located in a line. It is possible that serfs were attributed to them.
        1. BMP-2
          BMP-2 6 November 2017 16: 54 New
          +2
          It’s strange. I heard about the pianist Sidorov, but about the historian ... request This is which of?
          1. Settlement Oparyshev
            Settlement Oparyshev 7 November 2017 20: 59 New
            0
            You heard about the Zionist Serdyuk, who sang a song about the inter-boundary, without an ensemble.
        2. Fkjydjckfrgh
          Fkjydjckfrgh 11 November 2017 10: 16 New
          0
          Quote: pp to Oparyshev
          The historian Sidorov and others claim that in Siberia from a plane you can see the skeletons of star fortresses located in a line. It is possible that serfs were attributed to them.

          "There were no serfs beyond the Urals" (c) fool
  7. Pancho
    Pancho 5 November 2017 12: 22 New
    +3
    Quote: pp to Oparyshev
    The engraving shows Peter1 returning from Europe, suffering from tropical diseases who does not indulge in Russian and is special in boarding, while a younger man with the specialty of a carpenter was leaving.
    It is believed that even if Moscow rose, it was that it collected tithes from the surrounding Lands in favor of the Horde. Hence the attitude of Muscovites to other peoples. It has survived to this day.
    Regarding the serfs. Where are the same fortresses to which the peasants were assigned? Only traces of tens of thousands of fortresses remain. But no one writes about them. As if there were no fortresses.
    it is depressing that history is taken seriously, some tales, tales with such details that one is struck by. The battles are described, Smolensk Kutuzov, who were not even in Smolensk. England now does not particularly award the heroes of Donbass, but in 1814. richly awarded many military men of the Russian army. For whom did they fight then? For Rus, for whose Russia? Hardly. Of course, not all historians rewrite each other, there are serious logical and understandable studies. Well, okay, the main thing is and who needs it without information will stay.
    Battles Description of the battles of 1612 draw on the battles of 1812.

    Has anyone understood any of this ?!
    1. Fedya2017
      Fedya2017 5 November 2017 13: 10 New
      +3
      Quote: Pancho
      Has anyone understood any of this ?!

      You can understand what it is about ... There is an official story - in textbooks. But there are a lot of blank spots and absurdities, because of this, the so-called alternative history began to emerge somehow. Which, trying to explain all the absurdities and misunderstandings of official history, at first shocking an unprepared person. For example, about Peter 1 ... Yes, a lot of incomprehensible things are connected with this person. There is a version that another person returned from a trip to Europe. That is, the king was replaced ... If interested, google this topic.
      1. BMP-2
        BMP-2 5 November 2017 14: 20 New
        +2
        In the context of this article, it is not entirely clear: after all, the era of information and propaganda is the 500th and XNUMXst centuries. Who needed propaganda XNUMX years ago? Whom did the then pseudo-historians try to convince? request There was no media then. As the king (king, shah, ...) commanded - so the heralds retold (a month, a year later, three - depending on the size of the empire). And who listened to them then, these "historians"? Only the narrow circle of the then elite ...
        1. the lord
          the lord 5 November 2017 14: 41 New
          +1
          But don’t remember for what reason Peter Alekseyich claimed his rights to the Gulf of Finland and some adjacent territories. starting with the assault on Noteburg? Due to their historical affiliation with the original Rusinovgorod Slovenia. How would it be justification for taking away from a neighbor the lands on which he could live for several centuries, burying many generations of his people in these lands.
          1. BMP-2
            BMP-2 5 November 2017 15: 00 New
            +1
            And, yes, it seems I recall: it was then transmitted on all TV channels and posted on YouTube ...
            1. the lord
              the lord 5 November 2017 15: 14 New
              0
              And to remember, be sure to be an eyewitness? Sometimes, "remembering" is to recall from what you read as be .... And to advocate for the elite to issue money and warriors for this campaign, the opinion of historians was very helpful. He himself didn’t blame the foolishly drunk, but he really called for "grandfathers-great-grandfathers" coffins
              1. BMP-2
                BMP-2 5 November 2017 15: 28 New
                +2
                Quote: znavel
                And to advocate for the elite to issue money and warriors for this campaign, the opinion of historians was very helpful
                So in the first comment I wrote about this. Just in the article as an explanatory reason, the emphasis is on the need even then propaganda. But propaganda is bringing an idea to the masses, and not to a narrow circle of "chosen ones." hi
                1. the lord
                  the lord 6 November 2017 13: 48 New
                  +1
                  Here I am delighted to ponder: but in that society there was enough propaganda among the "chosen ones", and it was enough to raise the blessed or dervishes to bring out the square.
                  1. BMP-2
                    BMP-2 6 November 2017 16: 42 New
                    +2
                    What a freak you! smile
                    Here, a couple of our below-signed comrades generally think that discussing the events of 500 years ago is guessing at the coffee grounds! laughing and any of our ideas about what was then society was nothing more than speculation. lol On the other hand, practice shows that people with advanced imaginations tend to have higher IQs. So, why not train this your "cold weapon" ?! wink
                    So, summarizing and developing everything previously said:
                    1) in those distant times, three main forms of power were used to control the masses: power through tradition ("the king, the prince ... you can’t argue, because his power was given to him by God, to obey power is a tradition coming from great-grandfathers-great-grandfathers .. . "), the power of power (" the king, the prince - have the right to execute and punish ") or religion (" the king, the prince - embody the will of God on earth, therefore, to go against them is to go against God ");
                    2) propaganda in our current understanding at that time was not an urgent problem for those in power, since the broad masses were controlled not by “information”, but by other forms of power;
                    3) informational impact on the masses - in those days, of course, there was also. But to explain any events by the actions of historians necessary to create "public opinion" sounds extremely unconvincing, because against the background of the three forms of power listed above, influencing this very public opinion in those days does not seem to be a difficult task. It was said, for example, "His Majesty" that the Busurmans trampled the grave of the Lord - and went on a crusade "to restore justice," Karl said that "Poltava is Sweden" - and ordinary people went "to rake their land with chestnuts out of the fire." .. Well, that is, there is no need for any additional historical research!
                    4) the need for informational influence on the blessed or dervishes arose only when the power of the king, prince was very weak, and there was a temptation to seize it. The survivals of the then "democratic" government in the form of "black rad" can still be observed on the territory of the former USSR and other union and non-union republics. In this case, indeed, the need for information is being updated that could help stir up a great deal of confusion. However, in order to declare himself False Dmitry I, False Dmitry II or the illegitimate son of Kuchma - no special historical knowledge is needed, again! laughing
                    Conclusion: without diminishing the importance of the informational influence on the masses for the implementation of the policies of the ruling class, it should be noted that the causality caused by the need for propaganda presented in the article is not justified! hi
                    1. the lord
                      the lord 6 November 2017 22: 11 New
                      0
                      You five did not understand what I wrote and attributed everything to the influence on the mob - it was managed well with the help of blessed and dervishes. It was much more important to propagandize precisely the “chosen ones”. And among them there are candidates for the throne and, therefore, people who are content with their lives. To justify for them what the hell it is necessary to rub into the Neva swamps and Karelia, when they live well under Tula - that’s why propaganda is needed. And it’s not easy - beat the muzzle, and "the coffins of the ancestors trample on the boots of the conquerors." This is where propaganda worked with the help of historians, who shocked the ancient scrolls, proving that all this is necessary. You won’t convince the "chosen ones" - you will get a riot or a coup for tyranny. How be so ....
                      1. BMP-2
                        BMP-2 6 November 2017 22: 30 New
                        +2
                        Okay, then I'll be brief:
                        1) the term "propaganda" is incorrectly used to mean exposure to a small number of people;
                        2) the role of “historians” in the context of “convincing elites” is greatly exaggerated. Elites at all times were motivated by their own benefit, and not by the moral and ethical concepts of public justice.
        2. Fedya2017
          Fedya2017 5 November 2017 18: 15 New
          +2
          Quote: BMP-2
          There was no media then.

          Nobody knows what happened 500 years ago ... All the "old Russian" annals known today were born no earlier than the 18th century, it is alleged that these are copies (lists) from documents that have not been preserved from time to time. What is the statement of scientists based on - there is no answer ...
          1. Settlement Oparyshev
            Settlement Oparyshev 5 November 2017 22: 36 New
            +1
            More precisely, the middle of the 19th century.
    2. Cat
      Cat 5 November 2017 15: 32 New
      +1
      When pulled it is "very painful"! And so "ala Oparyshev" get used to it !!!
    3. bbss
      bbss 5 November 2017 16: 17 New
      +3
      Pure nonsense about Tartaria ... Now such a sect has arisen from under-education. Zely fierce woodpeckers ...
      1. Settlement Oparyshev
        Settlement Oparyshev 5 November 2017 22: 35 New
        +2
        About Tartaria, usually mentioned in connection with the British Encyclopedia. You can add the Atlas of the Commander of the Red Army, 39, a pre-war publication, Tartaria is clearly shown there, I personally saw it. Yes, and many other publications.
        It is believed that the serpent pierced by a spear on the grave of George the Victorious is the very emblem of Tartaria.
        1. the lord
          the lord 6 November 2017 13: 46 New
          +1
          You will find a source about tartaria before the invasion of the Mongols in European mercy. And so, the tales of European under-graduates from the dark ages and no more
          1. BMP-2
            BMP-2 6 November 2017 16: 50 New
            +3
            Yes, of course they will. laughing The expression "How to get into tartarara" - obviously the same went from there! lol
          2. Settlement Oparyshev
            Settlement Oparyshev 7 November 2017 17: 12 New
            0
            For loafers such as you, is there any point in looking? No, of course. What I need I have already found.
            1. BMP-2
              BMP-2 7 November 2017 20: 22 New
              +2
              Misconceptions can hardly be considered a good find. Even against the background of an absolute belief in their correctness.
            2. the lord
              the lord 9 November 2017 23: 12 New
              0
              Those. if I searched, but didn’t find, then I am a loafer? Or maybe it's all the same, dear, you have read heresies from a sucked finger (if not worse)? and since you are here on the forum making such statements, be adequate, be responsible for the bazaar. Otherwise, your tongue is pomelo, but you are awesome. Sorry, but this is the practice of the genre.
              1. Settlement Oparyshev
                Settlement Oparyshev 10 November 2017 16: 27 New
                0
                Wow, that's what you came off, you use it, that we are all separated by monitors and rude like a seasoned mother-in-law. There may be an excuse for you if you are in bed, I have a request for you. Do not comment on my writings anymore.
    4. Curious
      Curious 5 November 2017 22: 32 New
      +2
      Yes, it's enough to read the nickname. Usually, comments under this nickname are tried to understand once or twice, then everything is clear and without reading.
  8. ver_
    ver_ 6 November 2017 11: 03 New
    0
    Quote: sabakina
    Boris55, did you live 5508 years ago? Cossack mishandled ...

    ... not everything is so simple and unambiguous ... Biblical Methuselah lived for 969 years .. goat fershtein. that the number of years according to the Lunar Calendar .. Which corresponds to 80.5 years according to the solar calendar, is one solar year = 12 lunar years (months). Agriculture demanded just a monthly bill — anyone could count for months — the full moon, the waning, the rising ... and according to when and what to plant, harvest, celebrate .. The exact date of Christ's birth is 1152 - the date is set using Astronomy and mathematical apparatus .. In nature, we have 2-17 from the birth of Christ ... It is not known when they started using the solar calendar and stopped using the lunar calendar ... Therefore, we have what we have ...
    1. the lord
      the lord 6 November 2017 13: 53 New
      +1
      There, among the nova’s pedigree, among the long-livers there was a man who lived for only 90 years, and this is pink childhood according to the lunar calendar — how could he leave such children? That's where the true miracle is! So the binding to the lunar calendar is far-fetched. In addition, the peasants just have a lunar calendar as a year - in FIG not necessary - the crop did not grow in a month ....
      1. ver_
        ver_ 6 November 2017 17: 44 New
        +1
        ..and now sort it out, my dear, you ours, when the Bible was written and from which fright the monks came up with these opuses ... The volcano that destroyed Garden and Gomoru erupted in 1648 - there is an obelisk with this date .. the Bible * sends * us to deep khe ... antiquity .. and if there is a brain, think why these feints * to the holy fathers * ..and stop mowing under the fool ..
        1. andj61
          andj61 6 November 2017 18: 00 New
          0
          Quote: ver_
          ..and now sort it out, my dear, you ours, when the Bible was written and from which fright the monks came up with these opuses ... The volcano that destroyed Garden and Gomoru erupted in 1648 - there is an obelisk with this date .. the Bible * sends * us to deep khe ... antiquity .. and if there is a brain, think why these feints * to the holy fathers * ..and stop mowing under the fool ..

          I wonder where did you find that in the area of ​​the Dead Sea there is a volcano, and even erupting in 1648? But both Sodom and Gomorrah, according to legend, were there! In Europe, not counting Iceland, there are only two active volcanoes and both in Italy ...
          There is no doubt that the dating of events, especially biblical ones, is doubtful. This dating was carried out by the astrologer and numerologist Scaliger (and Pettavius ​​who joined him) in the late 16th and early 17th centuries. Carried out using the latest achievements of astrology and numerology. The church accepted its dating, and after 100 years the dating became generally recognized, although great scientists, Newton, for example, did not agree with Scaliger.
          1. ver_
            ver_ 6 November 2017 18: 23 New
            0
            ..even pearls have been preserved that deteriorate without sunlight ...- excavations have shown this ..
            1. the lord
              the lord 6 November 2017 22: 55 New
              0
              And the fact that pearls are generally formed in conditions when there is no sunlight at all does not bother you?
          2. ver_
            ver_ 9 November 2017 12: 23 New
            0
            ..This is Italy, gracious sovereign, and why the hell did the Jews * slaughter * the area of ​​the dead sea - ask them ..
        2. the lord
          the lord 6 November 2017 23: 02 New
          0
          You will not throw off a photo with this obelisk? It’s just that there are copies of the bible of the 6th-8th centuries and everything seems to be the same as in the modern one. So, sodom with a gomorrah did not happen in 1648 for sure. Otherwise, the authors can be called predictors very strong, because they called the city. And already in 1648 such cities there would have been known throughout the Mediterranean. And this is also France and Spain, and the Italian principalities. Late Renaissance or even after it time)))))
  9. the lord
    the lord 6 November 2017 22: 52 New
    0
    BMP-2,
    Alas, the history of people is a history of mistakes .... Few could observe the benefit of observing. An example of this, the crusaders, the dull-headed knights, the Romans, the Christians sent to Palestine for nafig useless Palestine, where there is far from "honey and milk." Almost none of them has gained profit. Even the Templars only predators drew attention to themselves.
    And by the "chosen ones" he meant the boyars and later the nobility. But there were still a considerable number of them. And the merchants often connected to military campaigns ...
  10. ver_
    ver_ 7 November 2017 03: 30 New
    0
    ..even pearls have been preserved that deteriorate without sunlight ...- excavations have shown this ..
    Quote: Seeker
    Call your grandfather a father, son, grandson. And for us he is Peter the Great.

    ... do not sign for everyone .., and do not judge him by fiction .. - the same was kind ..
  11. ver_
    ver_ 7 November 2017 16: 18 New
    0
    Quote: Seeker
    Call your grandfather a father, son, grandson. And for us he is Peter the Great.

    ... issue a decree ..
  12. ver_
    ver_ 7 November 2017 16: 24 New
    0
    Quote: znavel
    And the fact that pearls are generally formed in conditions when there is no sunlight at all does not bother you?

    ... who doesn’t let you see the rule of storing pearls, by the way about the birds, even the cartoon was that the pearls were exposed to the sun ....
  13. ver_
    ver_ 7 November 2017 18: 16 New
    0
    Quote: znavel
    You will find a source about tartaria before the invasion of the Mongols in European mercy. And so, the tales of European under-graduates from the dark ages and no more

    ... for the gifted: Mongolia was founded in 1920 .. Search for help to help you .. The Mongol invasion of the Tatars to Russia is a fake created after 1920 ..- learn the mat. part..
  14. ver_
    ver_ 9 November 2017 12: 32 New
    0
    Quote: znavel
    You will not throw off a photo with this obelisk? It’s just that there are copies of the bible of the 6th-8th centuries and everything seems to be the same as in the modern one. So, sodom with a gomorrah did not happen in 1648 for sure. Otherwise, the authors can be called predictors very strong, because they called the city. And already in 1648 such cities there would have been known throughout the Mediterranean. And this is also France and Spain, and the Italian principalities. Late Renaissance or even after it time)))))

    ... a bit of memory failed - in 1631 - the stela stands .. FACT 6:
    Another confirmation that the city was filled up much later than the official date is the medieval stele, on which the true date of the eruption of Vesuvius is written. This is a stele located fifteen kilometers from Naples. It describes the eruption of Vesuvius on December 16, 1631 and lists the dead cities, including Pompeii and Herculano. Officially, the inscriptions on this monument are not considered by historians as evidence of the existence of Pompeii, until the seventeenth century. Such a mention on a stele in the seventeenth century categorically contradicts the traditional version of history, because it is believed that, as Pompeii fell asleep in 79, no one has remembered this city since 1700
    1. the lord
      the lord 9 November 2017 23: 06 New
      0
      Yeah, it’s interesting, not funny ... but about Gommora and Sodom, answer what thread?
      Pompeii was lost in the chronicles due to the migration of peoples, when barbarians began to pace around Italy as if at home and more and more came. Plus the change of not only political, but also religious regimes, plus an attitude to the chronicle and to the statistical component of science (libraries were burned and pseudoscience and all kinds of crooks from science developed). The example is fundamentally incorrect.
      Next try: ...
      1. ver_
        ver_ 10 November 2017 08: 24 New
        0
        https://pandoraopen.ru/2016-09-05/gibel-pompei-da
        tirovana-neverno /
        1. the lord
          the lord 11 November 2017 03: 23 New
          0
          Well, on your next attempt to talk about Pompeii, ignoring Sodom and Gomorrah, I searched the forums for discussion of this problem and won’t find it, in my opinion, thoroughly enough, although you need to study it a little longer to understand everything, but it’s upheld here right to the 79th year:
          Our local leader launched an attack on the TSSI forum and even tried to refute 14 points of evidence of the dating of the death of ancient cities.

          Since I am sure that such figures should be taken to clean water (and before that they poked into the puddle made by them (c) Andreas), I suggest that those present pay attention to carefully monitor the machinations of this dishonest ahem ... comrade.

          So, in favor of dating 79 year:

          1) written tradition (more than 20 ancient sources mentioning Pompeii and Herculaneum before the eruption, and marking their death). The deaths of Pompeii and Herculaneum are also reported by many later authors.

          Andreas> All of these sources are based on one thing, namely Dion Cassius. Pliny the Younger writes nothing about Pompeii.

          Lies # 1. Above, ancient authors are voiced, who wrote before Dion Cassius about the dead cities in 79g.
          - Pliny the Younger
          - Station
          - Suetonius
          - Marcial
          - Marcus Aurelius
          - Tertullian

          2) numismatics (all coins no later than 79 years old).

          Andreas> No coins from Pompeii exist in the public domain! Neither the Neapolitan Historical Museum, nor the Internet.

          Lie number 2. There are coins on the Internet

          [IMG]
          gold coin with head of Nero, 54-68 CE
          found in Herculaneum; he wears a laurel wreath and sideburns
          Naples, National Archaeological Museum (? Stories from an Eruption? Exhibit). Credits: Barbara McManus, 2003
          Keywords: aureus
          ***
          [IMG]
          gold coin with facing portraits of Nero and Agrippina the Younger on obverse, 54 CE
          The legend reads? Agrippina Augusta, wife of the Divine Claudius, mother of Nero Caesar? (AGRIPP. AVG. DIVI CLAVD. NERONIS CAES. MATER). This coin was found among the victims at Herculaneum.
          Naples, National Archaeological Museum (? Stories from an Eruption? Exhibit). Credits: Barbara McManus, 2003
          Keywords: aureus
          ***
          [IMG]
          ***
          [IMG]

          3) epigraphy (a huge number of wall inscriptions), including indicating emperors and other famous personalities.

          Andreas> There is a description of these epigraphies in the literature, most without photographs.

          That is, on this point, the defeat has already been recognized

          4) art and cultural studies -

          Andreas> Subjective concepts. Their chronological linkage is carried out from today, mostly on the basis of literary works, and not historical documents.

          Lie number 3. Please pay attention - a person does not even understand what is at stake.
          The only thing we can agree with is that the countdown comes from today and from our current knowledge.

          5) archaeological stratigraphy.

          Andreas> Neither Pompeii nor Rome has any archaeological stratigraphy. In Rome there is an “antique” Via Appia that runs flush with modern asphalt and a forum filled with 4-6 meters of rubbish, debris from earthquake-victim buildings and flood products from the banks of the Tiber. Pompeii was covered with ashes. But maybe the "Cassian" Pompeii should be looked deeper?

          Lie number 4. There is archaeological stratigraphy, and ongoing excavations have been shown more than once.
          http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/pompeii/hi
          story.html

          6) volcanological stratigraphy - as a result of the study of layers of pyroclastic deposits and lava flows, they are all identified and mapped. Layer 79, the most powerful Pliniev eruption in 2000, is clearly distinguished.

          Andreas> Really? And he was tied to the year 79, on the basis of romantic letters of Pliny the Younger to Tacitus, or two lines of Dion Cassius? And where did the layer of 1631 go, a no less powerful eruption, moreover, described in detail by contemporaries? I saw all this "stratigraphy" in Pompeii and Herculaneum with my own eyes. It is fully correlated with descriptions of the eruption of 1631.

          Lie number 5. Moreover, multiple. Nothing is tied. Checked by various methods. Stratigraphy corresponds to the description of Pliny the Younger. But no witnesses to the eruption of 1631. - the difference between their descriptions and stratigraphy is significant.

          7) archaeomagnetic method (all layers of the eruption of Vesuvius are dated)
          8) dendrochronology (dozens of cuts)
          9 a) RU method (multiple dating of dissimilar materials)
          b) High-precision RU measurement of the sequences of saw rings from Herculaneum with comparison of fluctuations with a calibration curve (wiggle matching).
          10) uranium-thorium method
          11) Potassium-Argon method (two different laboratories).

          Andreas> All of the above dating methods have proven to be bankrupt, needing to calibrate one method to another, no less controversial. Any laboratory of RU analysis requires you to approximately indicate the time period of the expected result. Otherwise, you may get embarrassed.

          Lie number 6. All of the above methods are consistent and correspond to the declared errors.
          Many methods, such as dendrochronology, do not need any calibration at all.

          12) Traces of the eruption of Vesuvius were found in the ice cores of the Greenland ice and are directly dated to the current year by counting the layers directly to the accuracy of the year.

          Andreas> Or maybe not Vesuvius, are there many volcanoes on the planet?

          This type of objection is this. It looks very much like excuse. Obviously, there are no objections.
          The traces of the eruption are determined not only by the number of the ice layer, but also by the chemical composition and the ratio of isotopes.

          13) The lifetime of Pliny the eldest, who died during the eruption, is astronomically dated by the solar eclipse described by him (unambiguous accurate dating), as well as approximately by the stellar agricultural calendar he described with the times of rising and falling of stars.

          Andreas> There are so many tolerances in your “unambiguous exact dating” that it seems to be “unambiguous” to few.

          Also excuse. It seems to be ambiguous dating only to novochrons, for it buries their constructions. No real objections

          14) Ceramic artifacts of this time (brick, dishes) are dated by the thermoluminescent method.

          Andreas> The thermoluminescent method is highly dependent on external conditions, even on sunlight, not to mention the high temperatures of the pyroclastic assault, and, like all other physical dating methods, is dependent on the initial and corrective calibrations.

          Lie number 7. For the method, the influence of high temperature at the time of the eruption is not too important. For the interval after it is measured to the present. Naturally, there is no talk of any calibration in this method.
          http://kasparovchess.crestbook.com/viewtopic.php?
          pid = 56900 # p56900
          http://kasparovchess.crestbook.com/viewtopic.php?
          pid = 57021 # p57021
          http://kasparovchess.crestbook.com/viewtopic.php?
          pid = 57125 # p57125
          [---]
          In the bottom line, we have already recognized defeat at some points, and the desire to fool people at others.
          Almost all issues have already been discussed here at the guest COP.
          Therefore, the answers in the form, as was done at the TSSI forum, clearly indicate the dishonesty of the respondent
  15. ver_
    ver_ 12 November 2017 10: 47 New
    0
    Quote: znavel
    Yeah, it’s interesting, not funny ... but about Gommora and Sodom, answer what thread?
    Pompeii was lost in the chronicles due to the migration of peoples, when barbarians began to pace around Italy as if at home and more and more came. Plus the change of not only political, but also religious regimes, plus an attitude to the chronicle and to the statistical component of science (libraries were burned and pseudoscience and all kinds of crooks from science developed). The example is fundamentally incorrect.
    Next try: ...

    ... what the heck are barbarians when the eruption blundered 30 years before the birth of Tsar Peter-1672 ....
  16. ver_
    ver_ 17 November 2017 03: 13 New
    0
    Quote: znavel
    You will find a source about tartaria before the invasion of the Mongols in European mercy. And so, the tales of European under-graduates from the dark ages and no more

    ... talking about the invasion of the Mongols in Europe-it's like talking about the invasion of the USSR in Europe in the 13th century ..