Military Review

The National Interest: Why the new Russian "subtle" submarine big problems

37
Some Russian projects in the field of underwater fleet they face certain problems that hinder timely and full implementation of all existing plans. Failures and successes in this area attract the attention of specialists and the public. In addition, Russian projects are of interest to foreign experts.


October 28: The National Interest published a new article by Sebastian Robin, entitled “Why Our New Stealth Submarines Have a Big Problem” (“Why the new Russian“ subtle ”big problem). As the name implies, the material from the headings The Buzz and Security is devoted to the peculiarities and problems of the development of Russian submarines.

The author begins his article with a reminder of recent Russian media reports. Shortly before its publication, the Russian press announced the plans of the Ministry of Defense, which envisage the construction of two Lada-type submarines (project 677). Thus, as S. Roblin reminds, the construction of two new ships will start approximately two decades after the laying of the St. Petersburg head submarine.



It is noted that in some publications on the new plans of the military department there is a delicate reservation. According to these reports, the new submarines of the 677 project will not receive an air-independent power plant (VNEU) and will be equipped with "traditional" diesel-electric systems. However, it is VNEU that is the key component of the non-nuclear submarine of the new generation.

The author recalls that a nuclear submarine can be several times more expensive than a diesel-electric ship, but it differs from it in lower noise, higher speed and unlimited navigation in a submerged position. Submarines with diesel engines, in turn, are noisier, and also require regular ascent, which leads to known risks.

Despite certain technical drawbacks, the majority of the fleets, having limited financial capabilities, operate precisely the diesel-electric submarines, both independently and as an addition to nuclear submarines. As for the relatively small range of action in a submerged position, it is not a big problem when solving the task of protecting coastal waters.

However, the development of non-nuclear submarines continues. In the nineties and two thousand years, promising air-independent power plants were introduced in the new projects, significantly increasing the capabilities of technology. Boats with such equipment can remain under water for days and weeks, although the speed of the underwater course is noticeably reduced. The main manufacturers of submarines with VNEU are Germany, France, Sweden, Japan and China. These countries are rearming their fleets, as well as building submarines for export.

S. Robin recalls that a large number of diesel-electric submarines were always present in the Russian Navy. As a consequence, it made sense to develop its own VNEU for promising submarines. In 1997, the construction of the St. Petersburg submarine of the Lada project 677 began at the Admiralty Shipyards. In the 2005 and 2006, the ships of the same type were laid, the Kronstadt and Sevastopol (later renamed the “Great Luke”).

The Lada project was supposed to be the fourth “generation” of successful submarines of the 877 “Halibus” and 636 “Varshavyanka” projects. According to the three existing projects of this family about fifty submarines were built for the fleets of Russia, China, Vietnam, Poland, Algeria and Iran. Modernized versions of such boats, built on projects 636 and 636.3, are among the quietest submarines. According to some reports, in terms of noise, 636.3 type submarines can be compared with modernized versions of atomic Los Angeles.

In December, the 2015 of the Rostov-on-Don submarine of the 636.3 project became the first representative of the Russian submarine fleet after World War II to use its weapon against the real goal. She performed a missile attack on objects in Syria.

S. Roblin points out that the authors of the Lada project 677 at one time promised to make the new submarine twice as loud as compared to Varshavyanka. The lead ship of this type, "St. Petersburg", was launched in 2004 year, but still retains the status of the test bench. This boat is smaller than the submarines of the 877 / 636 project: it has a length of 67 m with a displacement of 1765 t. Unlike the vast majority of post-war boats of the Soviet Union and Russia, it was built according to a single-hull scheme. The ship is operated by a crew of 35 people. There are eight 533-mm torpedo tubes with 18 torpedoes or missiles on board.

Other characteristic features of St. Petersburg are the Lyra hydroacoustic complex, the Litiy combat information and control system, electromagnetic radiation detection equipment, the Molniya anti-hydroacoustic coating and a seven-blade propeller with means for removing eddies.

The key innovation of the 677 project was an air-independent power plant. According to Russian press reports, such a VNEU was supposed to extract hydrogen from diesel fuel, further used by other equipment. As stated, such a scheme has certain advantages over alternative solutions, such as a Stirling engine or hydrogen fuel cells. It differs from them by less noise, due to the absence of moving parts, as well as greater safety, provided by the rejection of the need to store flammable gases. The author points out that the latter factor is of particular importance, since in recent decades fires on Soviet and Russian boats have repeatedly led to tragic consequences.

The Chinese naval forces include several Yuan-type submarines equipped with a VNEU based on a Stirling engine. At the same time, Beijing announced its desire to acquire four Russian Lada. Also in the past, the Admiralty Shipyards pointed to the possibility of serial construction of a simplified non-nuclear submarine of the Amur-950 project. Among other things, such a submarine differed in displacement less than 1 thousand tons and crew, reduced to 21 person. This project attracted the attention of Morocco. In addition, it was offered to India as part of the Project 75I program.

Nevertheless, reminds the author of The National Interest, the submarine "St. Petersburg" did not cope with the tests. In November 2011 of the year, the Russian edition of Izvestia reported on certain problems. So, it turned out that the D-49 type generators used in conjunction with the main engine power 2700 hp, do not show the desired characteristics. They gave out only half of the required power. A number of other systems were also missing: torpedoes and sonar equipment were still under development. The construction of the new 677 ships has been halted. In this case, as reported, the two new buildings received most of the required equipment.

Later, Navy Commander-in-Chief Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky criticized the current state of the Lada project. He noted that in terms of energy, the most modern submarine can be compared only with ships of the Great Patriotic War, and therefore it is hardly necessary for someone.

In 2013, the ITAR-TASS edition announced the resumption of work under the 677 project. However, S. Robin thinks that actions speak more than words. For example, during the same period, the Ministry of Defense ordered six VELS of the Varshavyanka project 636.3 to re-equip the Pacific Fleet. Most experts considered this order a confirmation that Russia could not create the desired air-independent power plant. The reasons for this could be related to a lack of funding or a well-known trend, which is to announce new projects that were not destined to be implemented.

Russian officials regularly raised the topic of the VNEU and discussed the advantages of submarines with such equipment. However, over the past few years, the main financial flow has been spent on building multi-purpose nuclear submarines of the 885 Yasen project and strategic missile carriers of the Borey 955 project.

In 2014, the Russian Ministry of Defense updated plans for the “fourth generation” of non-nuclear submarines. Now it was proposed to create the required ships in the framework of the Kalina project, which provided for the use of the VNEU. Most of the information about the requirements for this project has remained secret, but some of the data is still published. It became known that a fully equipped submarine "Kalina" will be able to remain under water for up to 25 days. In this case, its power plant will be built on a modular principle. It was assumed that initially the ships will receive traditional diesel-electric systems, and then - after the completion of the relevant project - they will be replaced with air-independent ones.

Some reports mentioned that the project of the VNEU for the Kalina submarines is already being developed, but other sources did not share this optimism. According to their data, a full-fledged power unit of a fundamentally new type will appear only at the beginning of the next decade.

The author of The National Interest recalls other proposals in the field of non-nuclear submarines. So, earlier Russian experts talked about the possibility of using high-capacity lithium-ion batteries. However, to date, no country has introduced such equipment on their submarines. Japan and South Korea came close to solving this problem, but still did not cope with it to the end.

Anyway, the construction of non-nuclear submarines of the 677 "Lada" project will be continued. Submarines "Kronstadt" and "Great Luke", despite all the difficulties, will be completed. Their launch is scheduled for 2019 and 2021 years, respectively. In this case, the submarines will not receive an air-independent power plant and will be equipped with "traditional" diesel engines. The continuation of the construction of the second and third series of boats was announced last year.

In June, 2017 Navy Commander Admiral Vladimir Korolev again touched upon the plans of the military department regarding the development of diesel-electric and non-nuclear submarines. According to him, in the future two more Lads will be laid. The fourth and fifth submarines of the 677 project can receive both a diesel-electric and an air-independent energy installation. Such aspects of the project will depend on the achievements of the industry, namely the availability of ready-made VNEU, suitable for use in practice.

According to Sebastian Roblin, diesel-electric submarines "Kronstadt" received a power plant, built on the basis of mastered units. Its main elements are two diesel generator power 1250 HP. In addition, the main motor is used DL-42 horsepower 5500. Such equipment is now being installed in the new "Varshavyanka". Apparently, the next two submarines will receive this or that new equipment. For example, it may be an anti-hydroacoustic coating "Lightning". It will be able to reduce the noise of the boat, equipped with not the quietest power plant.


The article “Why Russia's New 'Stealth' Submarines Have a Big Problem”:
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/why-russias-new-stealth-submarines-have-big-problem-22941
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  1. Esoteric
    Esoteric 3 November 2017 06: 56 New
    +5
    Some Russian submarine fleet projects are faced with certain problems that impede the timely and full implementation of all existing plans.

    In Russia, there are difficulties (temporary) with the adequacy of funding necessary to increase defense capability and increase the efficiency of the economy. But this refers to the political structure of the country. Therefore, the concern of overseas experts in solving Russian problems can only surprise. You will fully understand the development problems when your dollar will cease to be the "one and only" reserve currency. Therefore, all the economic successes of Russia cause you animal fear and awe ...
    1. ZVO
      ZVO 3 November 2017 11: 09 New
      14
      Quote: Esoteric

      In Russia, there are difficulties (temporary) with the adequacy of funding necessary to increase defense capability and increase the efficiency of the economy.


      In Russia, the problems are not primarily with money.
      And with a design idea.
      Which was lost in the era of collapse, which broke away from modern realities.

      No one in the Russian Federation has yet mastered the modular principles of the construction of ships that have been going on in the world for almost 40 years.
      All our buildings at cost are much more expensive than their Western counterparts.
      Indonesia and that. already as a shipbuilding country - faster and more modern than ours.

      The only thing that remains for ours is the Soviet backlogs in the construction of the sub-melt.
      In all the rest - a complete failure.

      And if only money is tricked in, we will receive prohibitively expensive products with worse performance in advance.
      1. jjj
        jjj 3 November 2017 11: 53 New
        +7
        Quote: ZVO
        All our buildings at cost are much more expensive than their Western counterparts.

        In practice, just the opposite
        1. NIKNN
          NIKNN 3 November 2017 20: 36 New
          +6
          Quote: jjj
          In practice, just the opposite

          And not only that, the whole amateur article doesn’t know from whom, At the amateur competition, he would take second place. Take at least such ingenious noise, and why then our diesel-electric submarines are called black holes? And in everything else insanity writes, anyhow write ...
      2. Setrac
        Setrac 3 November 2017 22: 10 New
        +3
        Quote: ZVO
        All our buildings at cost are much more expensive than their Western counterparts.

        How did you brainwash it, but you won’t notice right away, apparently you had in mind eastern counterparts, not western ones?
        Quote: ZVO
        Indonesia and that. already as a shipbuilding country - faster and more modern than ours.

        Demand creates supply, but let's compare the length of the railways and who is the best in this parameter, Russia or Indonesia?
        1. Usher
          Usher 5 November 2017 21: 41 New
          +3
          He is right, our projects are more expensive due to the corruption of the authorities / customers and executors.
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 5 November 2017 22: 27 New
            +1
            Quote: Usher
            He is right, our projects are more expensive due to the corruption of the authorities / customers and executors.

            More expensive than eastern counterparts, but not western.
            But not because of corruption, corruption is everywhere and Russia is far from a leader in this matter.
            1. Usher
              Usher 6 November 2017 17: 06 New
              +2
              Oh well don't, not a leader laughing Another leader. Did you even work? Do you know what rollback is? Or when the Deps in central Moscow collect tribute?
              1. Setrac
                Setrac 6 November 2017 19: 54 New
                +1
                Quote: Usher
                Did you even work?

                I worked and work, and those who are engaged in kickbacks from both sides - they do not work and steal.
                Quote: Usher
                Or when the Deps in central Moscow collect tribute?

                Do not pay, let them write a fine.
                Quote: Usher
                Another leader.

                Tambov Wolf is your leader. Russia is far from such countries as the USA, China, India.
      3. Nikolai Grek
        Nikolai Grek 4 November 2017 21: 18 New
        +4
        Quote: ZVO
        All our buildings at cost are much more expensive than their Western counterparts.

        what what what what is this nonsense ???? wassat wassat laughing laughing laughing
      4. gridasov
        gridasov 7 November 2017 23: 02 New
        0
        Absolutely right ! And it must be understood that design thought is a derivative of the work of physicists and mathematicians. who can and are able to concretize the expanded imagination of individual talents, who are able to bring a healthy thought to the first step. Therefore, money is an important attribute of progress, but it must be understood that fundamental discoveries are preceded by even more significant pre-fundamental ones, which represent the foundation of what the foundation will be and then the whole superstructure. Money is preceded by an idea and its rationale. So you need to look for a person who carries knowledge that is not subject to others
        1. Falcon5555
          Falcon5555 22 March 2018 13: 28 New
          0
          Gridasov, I guess one time: is it you - the person - the bearer of the knowledge that is not subject to others?
      5. The comment was deleted.
    2. Juborg
      Juborg 3 November 2017 12: 28 New
      +5
      Either the Yankees were chasing the 636th across the seas and oceans, led by an aircraft carrier, and somehow nothing happened. And so "problems", of course, "problems"!
    3. arkadiyssk
      arkadiyssk 3 November 2017 18: 57 New
      +3
      NI experts are not overseas. NI is a Russian publication, such a Cossack sent to America. In the form of owner Konstantin Simis. It’s time to know these things.
      1. Uryukc
        Uryukc 4 November 2017 00: 58 New
        0
        Quote: arkadiyssk
        NI experts are not overseas. NI is a Russian publication, such a Cossack sent to America.

        And we regularly see GlavRed at Solovyov. And what's the point? According to their articles, it is clear that they are not our Cossacks at all.
        1. Mooh
          Mooh 31 July 2018 19: 56 New
          0
          I don’t know whose Cossacks they are, but judging by the translations and paraphrases of their publications regularly published on VO, they are rare and they suck out their articles at best from the finger, and even worse.
          Sivkov with Damantsev against their background are the monsters of knowledge and the geniuses of propaganda.
    4. The comment was deleted.
  2. Uncle lee
    Uncle lee 3 November 2017 07: 27 New
    +5
    Quote: Grandfather is caste
    Will this article be tomorrow?
    It will be! How are we without a black hole? drinks

    My answer yesterday!
  3. Sofa Analyst
    Sofa Analyst 3 November 2017 08: 13 New
    13
    Submarines with diesel engines, in turn, are noisier (after this phrase you can no longer read because it becomes clear that the author does not understand anything about what he writes, because you can find out a little google that if the submarine is on batteries, then everything is just the opposite)
    1. Hard Rock
      Hard Rock 3 November 2017 09: 35 New
      +5
      I completely agree with you, another "analyst" who is raving ... It's like Dushenov, also one "iksperd" wrote about the invincibility of American aircraft carriers.
    2. Poppy
      Poppy 3 November 2017 11: 27 New
      +1
      Well, that surprised me too.
  4. 27091965
    27091965 3 November 2017 09: 31 New
    +4
    “Why the new Russian“ subtle ”submarine has big problems”


    " An incident was reported in which a Song class submarine surfaced no more than 5 miles from the USS Kitty Hawk. The submarine went unnoticed by the aircraft carrier and the accompanying warships until it surfaced.
    When asked by the Americans why the Chinese submarine sailed within a radius of 5 miles from the connection. The Chinese responded with a statement that the Song-class submarine (Type 039), which appeared on October 27, 2006 next to the USS Kitty Hawk, was there "by accident" and did not interfere with the movement of the junction
    ."

    A submarine with a well-trained crew poses a great threat to the enemy. Despite the fact that it does not have an air-independent power plant.
  5. Dashout
    Dashout 3 November 2017 10: 35 New
    +5
    A key innovation of the 677 project was an air-independent power plant. According to Russian press reports, such a VNEU was supposed to produce hydrogen from diesel fuel, then used by other equipment.

    A very interesting and necessary solution, but how will it look on a submarine? We take hydrogen from the hydrocarbon mixture, and carbon? drop overboard? maybe .. In a civilian, there are no problems: hydrogen for electricity generation, and a high-carbon mixture concentrate for composites. This is generally a future form of oil use. But on submarines .... Although ..., the complete absence of internal combustion engines and an electric motor, noiselessness, probably, everything will be paid back
    1. jjj
      jjj 3 November 2017 11: 55 New
      +2
      In general, we initially developed "hydrogen batteries". Much has been said about this. Then silence fell sharply. So something happened
      1. NordOst16
        NordOst16 3 November 2017 15: 13 New
        +2
        There were a lot of yelling from the Angara launch vehicle, then silence. I think that they saw through the budget and quietly try to lower the ends into the water
        1. arkadiyssk
          arkadiyssk 3 November 2017 18: 59 New
          +2
          Well, it’s just that the engineers working on the Proton from Moscow somehow don’t want to move to Omsk to collect the Angara. Therefore, a lot of difficulties with the launch of production.
          1. NordOst16
            NordOst16 3 November 2017 21: 10 New
            +1
            A lot of problems with cost and, as I read, with quality.
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. NordOst16
                NordOst16 24 March 2018 16: 44 New
                0
                Well, it’s right, more a city - more appetites.
  6. Poppy
    Poppy 3 November 2017 11: 27 New
    +2
    As far as I know, these are diesel-electrics that are quieter than atomic ones, and not vice versa.
  7. The comment was deleted.
  8. asr55
    asr55 4 November 2017 02: 26 New
    +2
    Quote: NIKNN
    Quote: jjj
    In practice, just the opposite

    And not only that, the whole amateur article doesn’t know from whom, At the amateur competition, he would take second place. Take at least such ingenious noise, and why then our diesel-electric submarines are called black holes? And in everything else insanity writes, anyhow write ...

    In the aftermath contest, the after-party Kiril Ryabov would be the chairman of the jury.
  9. asr55
    asr55 4 November 2017 02: 34 New
    +2
    The article was sprinkled on another one of course. For after, I inform you. that on Project 636.3 pl, there is no need to surfaced to replenish the air supply and charge the batteries. Learn the mate part, dear Kirill Ryabov. I think there should not be such fakes on military review.
    1. Eflintuk
      Eflintuk 4 November 2017 12: 05 New
      +1
      Are you talking about raising the RDP (PVP) in the periscope position? Well, so I want to disappoint you - in modern times, it's like surfacing - i.e. loss of stealth combat patrol.
  10. Awaz
    Awaz 5 November 2017 16: 35 New
    0
    Duc, dear experts, tell me, the text is the real state of things or still a dummy. I somehow did not understand. However, the phrase "a well-known trend, which is the announcement of new projects that are not destined to be implemented." I understand very well. In the USSR, it would never have occurred to anyone to brag about what is missing from the media.
    And yet, why the submarine fleet does not use the "best practices Mask" in terms of batteries)))? Either the batteries in his wrong system, or he himself announces too much of what will never happen)))
  11. Indifferent
    Indifferent 6 November 2017 13: 00 New
    +1
    I think you should not confuse boats from the time of the Patriotic War and modern diesel engines with Caliber rockets. They absolutely do not have to go far, force the boundaries of anti-aircraft defense and chase aircraft carriers. The main thing for her is to get target designation and that’s it! The missile itself will catch up without the participation of the boat itself. For us, the main thing is to deploy these boats in aircraft-hazardous directions and wait, at times floating up, to blow compartments through a diesel engine and a compressor. Carriers appeared, pulled on them and that’s all, the task is completed. Soon they will be able to shoot a thousand kilometers from the enemy. They are not in danger. And they cope with the atomic adversary easily. I also found this when the Varshavyanki just started patrolling. So whether these air-independent and very expensive installations are really needed is a big question.
  12. gridasov
    gridasov 7 November 2017 23: 03 New
    0
    Quote: ZVO
    Quote: Esoteric

    In Russia, there are difficulties (temporary) with the adequacy of funding necessary to increase defense capability and increase the efficiency of the economy.


    In Russia, the problems are not primarily with money.
    And with a design idea.
    Which was lost in the era of collapse, which broke away from modern realities.

    No one in the Russian Federation has yet mastered the modular principles of the construction of ships that have been going on in the world for almost 40 years.
    All our buildings at cost are much more expensive than their Western counterparts.
    Indonesia and that. already as a shipbuilding country - faster and more modern than ours.

    The only thing that remains for ours is the Soviet backlogs in the construction of the sub-melt.
    In all the rest - a complete failure.

    And if only money is tricked in, we will receive prohibitively expensive products with worse performance in advance.

    Absolutely right ! And it must be understood that design thought is a derivative of the work of physicists and mathematicians. who can and are able to concretize the expanded imagination of individual talents, who are able to bring a healthy thought to the first step. Therefore, money is an important attribute of progress, but it must be understood that fundamental discoveries are preceded by even more significant pre-fundamental ones, which represent the foundation of what the foundation will be and then the whole superstructure. Money is preceded by an idea and its rationale. So you need to look for a person who carries knowledge that is not subject to others
  13. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 9 November 2017 16: 27 New
    0
    Quote: Usher
    Oh well don't, not a leader laughing Another leader. Did you even work? Do you know what rollback is? Or when the Deps in central Moscow collect tribute?

    The Turk is asked: "How much will you build a hotel? For 1 million rubles." Ours: “For 3 million!” How so? Here are the Turks for one, and you for three? Everything is right! Million to me, million to you, Million Turk to build ... drinks
  14. vnord
    vnord 11 January 2018 11: 12 New
    0
    Difficulties that arose with the development of a new power development, in my opinion, arose because our engineers went the other way. By producing hydrogen from diesel on board a boat. And Yaroslavna was crying that the Germans made hydrogen-powered boats in a series (but they get hydrogen from plants on the shore). By looking in the internet for our 60 years old boats operating on hydrogen, the so-called "lighters"