Military Review

"Bronze collapse" or "bronze just ended"?

106

Third parent Kronid generation of people speaking

Copper created, nothing with the generation is not similar to the former.
With spears. There were those people mighty and terrible. Loved
Terrible affair Ares, violence. Bread did not eat.
Stronger than iron was their mighty spirit. No one approach
He did not dare to them: they had great power,
And neoborny hands grew on the shoulders of powerful.
They had copper armor and copper dwellings,
Copper work done: no one knew about the iron.
A terrible power of their own hands brought them destruction.
All descended namelessly; and, no matter how terrible they were ...
Hesiod "Works and Days"
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We have completed the publication of materials on stories Minoan civilization, written, so to speak, "without delay". But the interest in the topic turned out to be so great that it became necessary to expand it and to consider several other important issues directly connected with it. In particular, this is the question of the death of the Minoan civilization of Crete, which was due to a catastrophe, the consequences of which made the island vulnerable to external invasion. However, the end of the Minoan civilization was, in fact, the end of the whole Bronze Age. Rather, these two events coincided surprisingly in time. Such coincidences in history happen all the time, but what happened there after all? There was a ... "bronze collapse" - say archaeologists and historians who call this term the transition from the Bronze Age to the Iron Age, which occurred almost simultaneously in the states of the ancient Middle East and Eastern Mediterranean (in Levant, Asia Minor and Greece). Here, the change of epochs turned out to be connected with truly catastrophic changes both in the public order and affected the loss of many technological skills and cultural traditions, such as writing. There was a destruction of all large state formations, not to mention the cities. In Europe, the period of the first "dark ages" began (in Greece they are known as the "Greek Dark Ages").


Bronze cast sword replicating earlier designs with wooden handle. (Museum of Lyon, France)

Chronologically, all these sad events took place in 1206 — 1150. BC er It was then that the invasion of the "peoples of the sea" occurred, the Mycenaean kingdom perished, the Hittite state on the territory of Anatolia and Syria, and the domination of Egypt in Syria and Canaan also ended, although the Egyptian state itself stood. Mycenaean linear writing and Luvian writing disappeared. Almost every city between Troy and Gaza was destroyed and after that, after that, it was no longer settled: for example, such cities as Hattusa, Mycenae, and Ugarit were abandoned forever.

"Bronze collapse" or "bronze just ended"?

Model of the ancient Minoan ship.

The catastrophe that took place during this period led to very serious regressive phenomena in almost all spheres of spiritual life and in the field of material culture. The art of shipbuilding, architecture and architecture, metalworking technology, weaving, and especially painting were thrown back at once centuries ago and were revived only a thousand years later, in the era of the late Greek archaic. For example, the myth of the death of King Minos in the bath as a result of boiling water supplied by the king of Sicily was considered a perfect invention even in the Hellenistic era, since in the Mediterranean only in Rome of the empire did pools appear that had separate pipes for hot and cold water. It was simply impossible to think about this before, although the Cretans knew how long ago. The palaces of Knossos and Festus in several floors and the stone houses of the townspeople, equipped with sewage systems in the cities on the island of Santorini and on the Ionian Islands, all this seemed to fall from the history and consciousness of the people of that time.


Palace in Knossos. North entrance. Reconstruction of Arthur Evans.

In every major Hittite city, a layer of destruction dating back to the end of the Bronze Age was found, and the Hittite civilization, as archeologists find it, was unable to return to the previous level that preceded this catastrophe. By the way, ancient Troy, too, was destroyed at least twice, and only then it was finally abandoned, so only the Romans built their city on the same hill.


Eight-shaped shields - painting of the palace at Knossos, Kollonad Hall.

In Cyprus, the cities of Enkomi, Kition and Sinda were captured, plundered, and then burned, and again, sometimes twice, after which people left them completely. In the city of Kokkinokremos found many treasures of metal products. But once they were found by archaeologists, this clearly indicates that the owners of these treasures did not return for them. At the same time, the “bronze collapse” in Cyprus led not to its decline, but to the opposite - to its flourishing, which then continued until the X century BC. er That is, it may very well be that Cyprus, rich in deposits of copper, has become a kind of "base" for the "peoples of the sea." And it was from him that they made their raids into the Levant, and then brought the stolen loot here.


Perhaps it looked like the warriors of the "peoples of the sea", which brought so much trouble to the civilizations of the Ancient East. Artist J. Rava.

Excavations of the city of Ugarit show that massive destruction occurred after the reign of Pharaoh Merneptah. The texts on clay tablets that were burned by the fire that raged in the ruined city speak of invasions from the sea, cities that had already been destroyed by the “peoples of the sea”. One of the texts has a message about the absence of Ugaritic fleetwho was busy patrolling the coast.


Pharaoh's sherdins fight the Philistines. Artist J. Rava.

By the time of the coup of Horemheb for Egypt, nomadic Shasu became an increasingly serious threat. Ramses II, after the epochal battle of Kadesh, began a war with them. Egypt and its heirs Egypt defended, but the cities of Ashdod, Ashkelon, Acre and Jaffa were destroyed and more than thirty years were empty.


People of the Minoan era loved to adorn themselves ...


... But what's the point in these decorations, if you have nothing to eat, or do enemies come from the sea that you cannot repel? (Heraklion Archaeological Museum, Crete)

In Crete, from the Mycenaean palaces, the catastrophe of the Bronze Age also could not survive one. In the Peloponnese, 90% of settlements were destroyed. What about people? People died! Then came the “Greek Dark Ages,” which lasted more than 400 years. Sociologists define age as the life of three generations. Since at that time life expectancy was less, it is unlikely to be a mistake to consider that century for four generations. That is, during this time, 16 generations have changed. That's how long it took to return to the previous level of culture. A new rise began only in the era of geometric ceramics.


Hydria in the style of geometry. 750 — 700 BC er (Louvre)

The indigenous population of Crete escaped from the raids of "the peoples of the sea" high in the mountains. It was difficult to get there, it was easy to defend there, but just living there was very, very uncomfortable.


Reliefs in the temple of Medinet Habu in Egypt. From left to right: captive "peoples of the sea" - lab, shekelesh, Canaanites and pelesets.

The Assyrians, however, were able to fend off the invasion of the fly under Tiglatpalasar I. But both Assyria and Babylon had to be very hard. In addition, Babylon also suffered - it was plundered by the Elamites led by Shutruk-Nakhunt, after which it lost its significance for a long time.


Another Egyptian relief depicting the sea battle of the Egyptians with the "peoples of the sea."

In Egypt, the "peoples of the sea" invaded through Libya. In their composition were Achaeans, Sikules, Lycians, Sherdens (or shardan - perhaps Sardinians?) And Tyrsens, after which, under Ramses III, a new attack of the Philistines (Pelasgov?), Checker (Tevkrov?), Sherdin and Danai followed.


Map of migrations of the peoples of the Mediterranean in the era of "bronze collapse." Fig. A.Shepsa

It is clear that the memory of such a terrible tragedy in the memory of people is preserved, although it was sufficiently subjected to mythologization. A number of ancient authors reported the time before this catastrophe as a lost “golden age”. For example, Hesiod wrote about the epochs of the Golden, Silver and Copper centuries, as about heroes separated from his cruel Iron Age.


Warriors at all times loved to flirt with pretty women! Artist J. Rava.

There are many points of view regarding the possible causes of "bronze collapse." These are, for example, the superpower eruption of the Hekla volcano, dated 1159 g. e., although a number of archaeologists consider it to a later time.


The area of ​​the Aegean Sea during a volcanic eruption on the island of Santorini. Fig. A.Shepsa

Harvey Weiss, a specialist in Middle Eastern archeology from Yale University, studying droughts in Greece, Turkey and the Middle East, counted it was a long-term drought, which sharply worsened the socio-economic situation of the whole region, the cause of inevitable wars and migrations. This is quite consistent with those ancient Greek sources that report a severe drought, which began shortly after the Trojan War.


Bronze daggers 2200 - 1600's. BC. (Museum of Lausanne)

A number of scientists, considering the revealing finds of many swords of the type Naue II from the south of Eastern Europe, and the Egyptian and Ugaritian reports of the invasion of the "sea peoples", see in migrations the main cause of the catastrophe that occurred. Not without reason, soon after the reign of Pharaoh Ramses II, the Egyptians built several fortresses along the Libyan coast precisely in order to resist the "sea peoples". However, what caused this migration? Primitive greed for "old" and rich nations? Was the traditional desire of the poor from the rich to “take away and divide everything” or were there any deeper, perhaps hidden reasons from us?


Mold for spearheads, approx. 1400 - 1000 BC (Somerset, County Museum)

The “iron concept” of Leonard Palmer, for example, says that since it was at this time that iron metallurgy was discovered, and it was more accessible than bronze, then the army with iron weapons able to defeat armies using bronze weapons and chariots, although iron weapons were initially of inferior quality. However, over time they began to believe that the final transition to iron tools and weapons took place already after the "Bronze Age catastrophe" ended. That is, not iron itself was the cause of the "bronze collapse."


Foundry mold for casting bronze sword, approx. 800 BC Württemberg, Stuttgart.

Could bronze production be reduced by reducing the supply of tin? Yes, it could. But why? Were exhausted tin mines or something else happened? Most likely, it was the systemic collapse that affected not only the Eastern Mediterranean. In Central Europe, too, a noticeable regression can be observed between the culture period of the burial urns of the thirteenth and twelfth centuries. BC er and later Hallstatt culture in the X — IX centuries. BC er - that is, time synchronous "Greek dark ages", which began after the collapse of the Mycenaean civilization. But then again, what caused the crisis in several systems of the then society at once?


Bronze swords from the National Museum of Copenhagen.

There is a purely military point of view of historian Robert Drews, who believes that new types of weapons and armor, in particular cast (and not forged) spear tips and long piercing-cutting swords of the Naue Type II type, which appeared in the Eastern Alps and Carpathians around 1200 before n e., led to the emergence of mass armies, supplanting the army of professional soldiers with piercing swords, rapiers. And then the bronze was completely replaced by iron (without changing the design of the sword itself). Homer often uses the word "spears" as a synonym for the word "warrior", that is, it was this weapon that at that time began to play the main role in the war.


Warriors in chariots gradually lost their former role ... Artist J. Rava.

These weapons began to be used by proto-hoplites, which were now able to successfully repel the attacks of the war chariots, and this they crushed the armies of the former slave-owning states, whose military power was based precisely on the use of war chariots. As you can see, there are plenty of hypotheses, but how it was actually said, of course, no one will undertake, for a very long time it all happened!
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  1. ando_bor
    ando_bor 11 November 2017 15: 32 New
    +8
    Powerful climate changes caused the collapse of the Bronze Age.
    The transition to iron as a result of this collapse - in the surviving fragments left without bronze or its components, they began to work with iron, and worked out technologies already at the exit from the "Dark Ages", and iron was known as far back as the Bronze Age, but it was either bad or expensive due to technology imperfections.
    1. kalibr
      11 November 2017 17: 21 New
      +7
      Yes, you are right - the iron dagger in the tomb of Tutankhamun - meteorite iron.
      1. Settlement Oparyshev
        Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 23: 05 New
        +1
        Meteorite iron with the stamp of meteorite quality. Petrosyan is resting. And I don’t want to laugh at night.
        1. kalibr
          12 November 2017 08: 39 New
          +4
          Why are you an ignorant person, just marvelous. And also inform that you are related to technology. If you are an engineer, then this is a disaster for our industry. However, why be surprised. Krylov wrote a fable for some reason. The composition of the blade of the dagger of Tutankhamun indicates its origin. This is the same stigma.
          1. Settlement Oparyshev
            Settlement Oparyshev 12 November 2017 12: 00 New
            0
            Yes, but there’s nowhere to put a stigma on you either. Like a burnt “girl”
  2. parusnik
    parusnik 11 November 2017 15: 43 New
    +6
    there are plenty of hypotheses, but as it was all to say, of course, no one will undertake, for a very long time all this was!
    .. And the truth is somewhere nearby ... There are alternative versions .. it makes no sense to list everything .. One of them, they say, "the peoples of the sea" is the inhabitants of Atlantis, who after the catastrophe of their civilization, with all their might fell upon the "bronze" civilization .. There’s even a monograph by an English scientist on this subject .. By the way, it is interesting to read how a fascinating novel is from a cycle of folk history ... Unfortunately, I won’t say the author’s name and title of the work .. I don’t remember .. I have to look at the shelves more accurately .. .laziness..
    1. kalibr
      11 November 2017 17: 43 New
      +7
      Atlantis something really was, it turns out, multinational ...
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 11 November 2017 18: 45 New
        +2
        In fact of the matter... laughing But very interestingly pulls an owl on the globe ...
        1. kalibr
          11 November 2017 21: 01 New
          +4
          This is a technology, like writing articles from my material. We take two points in history. There is no direct connection between them, but it is implied. Everything is our happiness! We think about this connection and get a novel or "discovery". Atlantis is named in Timaeus and Critias. There are no other sources. The invasion of the peoples of the sea is. Where from? Unknown We take Atlantis and ... here they are, sweethearts. The easiest and most effective way to create a new reality.
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 11 November 2017 21: 34 New
            +5
            Ancient Jewish sources are called (without research, where did they come from)
            the peoples of the sea - by the Greeks. That is, the Philistines with whom the Jews fought almost three hundred
            years (without any success, by the way) - for the Jews were Greeks. In their cities
            sporting events, similar to the Olympic Games, Jewish peasant heroes like Samson ran to them in brothels for getters. The Philistines fought very skillfully, albeit with small forces, with iron weapons, and the Jews with bronze.
  3. Amurets
    Amurets 11 November 2017 16: 20 New
    +4
    There is a purely military point of view of the historian Robert Drews, who believes that new types of weapons and armor, in particular cast (rather than forged) spearheads and long pricking-chopping swords such as Naue Type II, appeared in the eastern Alps and Carpathians around 1200 BC n e., led to the emergence of mass armies

    So cast weapons, made of iron and bronze, had a quality much worse than forged.
    1. kalibr
      11 November 2017 17: 10 New
      +8
      Cast tips and swords are a quick development. Forging a long bronze sword is very difficult, almost impossible. But casting and forging is easy. Also the tips of spears and arrows. But forging from iron is easy! That is, more technologically ...
      1. BRONEVIK
        BRONEVIK 11 November 2017 19: 56 New
        16
        As I understand it, the bronze-iron antagonism was decided not in favor of bronze.
        Sorry
        Beautiful metal
      2. Weyland
        Weyland 11 November 2017 20: 36 New
        +3
        Quote: kalibr
        But forging from iron is easy! That is, more technologically ...

        Yeah ... laughing And how to melt this iron? The melting point of copper is 1089, bronze is about 1000. And iron is 1539. Do you even know in which year people learned to melt iron? In 1854m, in the Bessemer converter! True, steel is more light-melting, and cast iron is all the more difficult, but forging cast iron is very problematic (only a few craftsmen were able to do this; in fact, the highest grades of damask steel, from the point of view of the metal scientist - the so-called "inverted cast iron"). Iron was obtained in the form of a kritz — a sponge soaked in slag, and then long-term multiple forging pressed the slag (after all, not all), while losing half the iron back into the scale. You think why it was so expensive (with all the availability and low cost of ore), and why Homer called it (and only it) "metal laborious"?
        1. kalibr
          11 November 2017 20: 57 New
          +4
          Did I somewhere claim that the iron was melted to a liquid state? They melted until they got kritza, sponges, then forged. Therefore, aprons made of leather in which hot slag was sprayed. By the way, the technology was also used after 1854. The so-called pudding method. It is described in detail by J. Verne in the novel "500 Million Begumas".
          1. Weyland
            Weyland 11 November 2017 22: 09 New
            +2
            Quote: kalibr
            Did I somewhere claim that the iron was melted to a liquid state?

            You claimed that forging it was more technological. Due to slagging, the screams are by no means! Pudling is a slightly different technology (the so-called remaking kritsa) - but there was enough slag there.
          2. Settlement Oparyshev
            Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 23: 10 New
            0
            So, that’s where the aprons come from. And what can you say about the berry bronze, which is harder than a lot of iron. Was it at least not cooked in a fire?
            1. Weyland
              Weyland 12 November 2017 15: 12 New
              +1
              Quote: p-k Oparyshev
              And what can you say about berryl bronze, which is harder than a lot of iron. Is it even not cooked in a fire?

              Voiskunsky and Lukodyanov, "Very Distant Tartess"? We know, they read - it just doesn’t channel, they were not metallurgists. If I had become a fellow traveler, I might have managed to melt it, but I would hardly have become involved. “Black bronze” is tin-nickel, but the trick is that there is 12-15 percent of tin there - so it is easy to melt it, but only a few were able to forge.
  4. XII Legion
    XII Legion 11 November 2017 16: 21 New
    17
    Beautiful article in every sense!
    To the author - bow hi
  5. The comment was deleted.
    1. kalibr
      11 November 2017 17: 12 New
      +7
      You are right, it is proved that Athens was not burned. Although they lost their meaning. Perhaps they became the center ... the invaders and their inhabitants were smart enough to meet them with bread and salt? They were enslaved, they had to forget about high culture. But at least they survived ...
      1. Weyland
        Weyland 11 November 2017 22: 12 New
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        Perhaps they became the center ... the invaders and their inhabitants were smart enough to meet them with bread and salt? They were enslaved, they had to forget about high culture.

        Google "King Codr." Athens did not enslave - they peacefully agreed with the Dorians. They enslaved the rest - out of them, they got helots. The savage Dorians simply didn’t need the Athenian hi-tech - and due to the lack of demand, production went out.
    2. Weyland
      Weyland 11 November 2017 20: 41 New
      +5
      Quote: Hunter
      Why was the culture not preserved in Athens?

      Athens resisted - but became impoverished. And in poor societies, culture is simply not affordable for anyone -
      her items automatically become luxuries. Egypt also resisted the peoples of the sea "- but to achieve this victory spent almost the entire treasury on hired troops, the result is a 500 year decline (in particular, the Suez Canal should be cleaned of sand regularly; there was no money to clear it, the canal fell asleep, transit and profits from it ceased - and the Darius the Great Channel restored already after 700 years!)
      1. kalibr
        11 November 2017 20: 53 New
        +3
        As they say - I don’t live to fat.
  6. Settlement Oparyshev
    Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 17: 06 New
    0
    so the reason for the difficulties with bronze is known to more inquisitive researchers. The reason is that they cut down all the forests. There was nothing trivial to burn the blast furnaces. The lands of Europe turned into almost a desert.
    Metallurgists argue that in order to extract bronze, iron had to be mined first. This is claimed by Comrade Sundakov. It is impossible to mine ore using a stone tool. In general, the process of copper smelting is a high-temperature process and as you can guess about it on the knee, this does not fit into my mind Arsenic bronze is the lowest melting point, but simply introducing arsenic would not help. Arsenic would simply evaporate. This is claimed by Andrey Kuptsov.
    The problem could also be in England, where tin was mined and transported by sea to Europe. Any revolution or change of power could impede the movement of tin.
    1. kalibr
      11 November 2017 17: 18 New
      10
      However, a metallographic analysis of the products reveals the presence of arsenic in bronze. Kuptsov claims, but there is arsenic. It’s strange. And the forests were cut down ... So, forging critical iron you need even more coal ... And where it was first mined for iron, and then bronze. Your Dundukov needs to go to Cyprus, where he doesn't smell of iron, but where copper and bronze were smelted. He himself saw the remains of "stoves" and sheets of copper in a museum on the northern and southern sides of Cyprus. However, this will be.
      1. Settlement Oparyshev
        Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 17: 22 New
        +1
        Come to me, I will show you the remains of the “stove” and sheets of iron. It will immediately become clear to you where the iron mining began.
        1. kalibr
          11 November 2017 17: 42 New
          +7
          I don’t have to go anywhere. There is a metallography laboratory of the Russian Academy of Sciences. There, analyzes were made of almost all significant metal finds on the territory of the Russian Federation, maps of the zones of bronze distribution over the centuries were created. All this is reflected in the 20-volume Archeology of the Russian Federation. There is nothing to add to this.
          1. Settlement Oparyshev
            Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 17: 55 New
            +1
            After scribbling a "map of the zones of bronze distribution over the centuries," archaeologists, text in the subject, only grin. You seem to be new to this business, so zealously defending the officialdom.
            1. Cat
              Cat 11 November 2017 18: 41 New
              10
              My friend "Oparyshev" can you invite me to your "guests", otherwise I’ll be happy to prepare "slippers"!
              My attitude to "science" and the people of "science" kills me. If the science is official, then this is not a small "officialdom." If Shpakovsky, then a "beginner". Vyacheslav Olegovich, Alexander Borisovich and many people with academic degrees and titles can be loved, you can not love, you can "even throw a stone," we survived this game on the site.
              But if you have a desire to do something in order for your private opinion to be considered, and yes, in the scientific world, the teacher from the department say "at present the theory proposed by Mr. Oparyshev is considered to be the main version", then at least defend the thesis.
              1. Settlement Oparyshev
                Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 19: 38 New
                0
                All we argue about is technical issues, plus life experience and adequate thinking. Unfortunately, I have a technical background and can learn when they give me knowledge, I can very well determine where unreal tales are and where the real life situation is.
                For example, all over the world, cities are located on rivers, ancient cities.
                It would be appropriate to reason that both movement and logistics were along rivers. But TI asserts that in spite of everything, all peoples traveled by land along roads. Nesurazitsa.
                Further TI does not bother to explain why the breeds of horses and cows are called like the ports on the Atlantic coast. How can this be. Berberrian, English, Andalusian, Spanish
                and I.
                There is no need to defend the dissertations; everything is already known to us.
                1. Weyland
                  Weyland 11 November 2017 21: 00 New
                  +1
                  Quote: pp to Oparyshev
                  TI argue that no matter what, all peoples moved overland along roads.

                  Yeah ... Especially in Russia - right in the wind! In summer we went by boat, in winter - on a sleigh (along the same rivers, essno!) - and that's all serious historians agree with this. The way from the Varangians to the Greeks and from the Varangians to the Persians is purely water with few drakes on the watershed (it is significant how many place names in Russia are like: Volokolamsk, Vyshny Volochek, etc.).
                  By the way, there is no doubt that the Sejm-Turbino tribes migrated exclusively along the rivers.
                  1. Settlement Oparyshev
                    Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 21: 55 New
                    0
                    Village Perevoloki near Syzran.
                  2. kalibr
                    12 November 2017 08: 27 New
                    +1
                    Yes, and that is why the finds of their burials are usually found in the sand of coastal slopes.
                    1. Settlement Oparyshev
                      Settlement Oparyshev 12 November 2017 12: 47 New
                      0
                      now I understand. The ancient old men wandered along the steppes for a long time in order to give their souls to God on the banks of the river. It is sensible of you.
                2. kalibr
                  12 November 2017 08: 29 New
                  +1
                  And the ancient city of Chatal-Huyuk is not on the river. And Jericho - the most "ancient" is also not on the river. They flew there on vimanas ...
                  1. Settlement Oparyshev
                    Settlement Oparyshev 12 November 2017 12: 03 New
                    0
                    The same as you flew. You do not know the laws of not only physics, but also the laws of logistics. You just have to fly.
                    1. kalibr
                      12 November 2017 15: 59 New
                      +1
                      And what is logistics? Is this when A + B is equal to C?
                  2. Weyland
                    Weyland 12 November 2017 15: 17 New
                    +1
                    Quote: kalibr
                    They flew there on vimanas ...

                    They went there on foot. At that time, even donkeys had not yet been domesticated, not to mention horses and camels.
      2. Weyland
        Weyland 12 November 2017 23: 07 New
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        go to Cyprus, where iron does not smell, but where copper and bronze were smelted.

        There is iron in Cyprus, just deposits of a non-industrial scale (in fact, over any copper and polymetallic sulfide deposit there is a so-called "iron hat" made of brown iron ore - and the ancient Chinese already knew that under such "hats" it is necessary to search for color deposits) . Moreover, the most ancient finds of cemented and hardened steel are precisely Cyprus (Idalion city). Alexander of Macedon used the sword donated by Pumyaton, king of the Cypriot city of Kition. Demetrius Polyorket wore steel (I specifically checked from the original whether the translation was wrong) the carapace of the work of the Cypriot master Zoil - he withstood getting from the arcballists with 20 steps!
        1. kalibr
          13 November 2017 07: 01 New
          0
          Thank! You understand that you can’t know everything, so such refinements seem very valuable. Often you write on the basis of what they “say”, and double-check every word ... wow ... there isn’t enough strength or time. When I traveled to Cyprus and even took a photograph of a working copper mine, I heard all this from the guide. Of course, the tourist guide is still the source, but still they are not all the same inventing, much of the same when checking. So I trusted that "there is no iron." And apparently they didn’t write about the “hats” in the manuals.
    2. Weyland
      Weyland 11 November 2017 20: 53 New
      +5
      Quote: p-k Oparyshev
      Metallurgists argue that in order to extract bronze, iron had to be mined first. This is claimed by Comrade Sundakov. It is impossible to mine ore using a stone tool. In general, the process of copper smelting is a high-temperature process and as you can guess about it on the knee, this does not fit into my mind Arsenic bronze is the lowest melting point, but simply introducing arsenic would not help. Arsenic would simply evaporate. This is claimed by Andrey Kuptsov.

      Audible nonsense! I have never heard of these Sundakov and Kuptsov in my life (and if there were cool pros, I would have known for sure, because I myself am a pro), in ancient mines they often find not even a stone, but a horn tool, and they chopped ore quite successfully. And in terms of arsenic bronze ... In a nutshell: if you throw in a furnace a natural mineral - arsenic copper - half of the arsenic will really evaporate. and half will turn into arsenic bronze. But if you pour pieces of this mineral into molten copper, arsenic will fly off a few percent - believe my personal experience, I had to develop a technology for the disposal of such arsenic ores, the main task was to minimize the entrainment of arsenic in the gas phase. And one more thing: people learned to melt arsenic bronze about 6000 years ago - and pewter replaced it in a couple of millennia. But by the time of the “bronze collapse”, arsenic bronze was already around 500 years old, as they hadn’t - and they had completely forgotten the technology, so during the collapse due to the lack of tin they temporarily returned not to arsenic bronze, but stupidly to copper (until the iron technology spread wide enough). Perhaps this is the trick: tin bronze was more reliable than the then iron, and it would be difficult to squeeze out its iron (in China and 7 centuries after these events, weapons were made from expensive bronze, and shovels and hoes made from cheap but lousy iron!) .
      1. Settlement Oparyshev
        Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 21: 00 New
        0
        Well, everyone decided on this. The opinion of the pros is always valuable. Although all these 6000 years look like phonarism. And meet Sundakov on YouTube, which can be corrected in our concepts about metals.
        1. kalibr
          11 November 2017 22: 22 New
          +3
          We don’t get to know the Dundukovs in principle.
        2. Weyland
          Weyland 11 November 2017 22: 24 New
          +2
          Quote: p-k Oparyshev
          And meet Sundakov on YouTube, maybe something to fix in our concepts about metals.

          Serious scientists usually get to know each other not on YouTube, but at international conferences. In any case, I usually do this.
          1. Settlement Oparyshev
            Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 23: 18 New
            0
            You at your conferences have long gone away from life. We certainly cannot keep up with your flights of thought. Yes, and your whole crowd of professors do not make any comparison in terms of the volume of the World’s research, with Sundakov. So school students are no more.
            1. Weyland
              Weyland 12 November 2017 14: 51 New
              +1
              Quote: p-k Oparyshev
              And your whole crowd of professors cannot make any comparisons in terms of the volume of the study of the World, with Sundakov. So no more students.

              Well, where are we, wretched! Petrik, Fomenko, Nosovsky and Sundakov über alles! laughing
      2. kalibr
        11 November 2017 22: 36 New
        +2
        You word for word, in fact, outlined an excerpt from the book of our famous specialist E. Chernykh Metal. Man. Time. 1972 edition. Remarkable! You can blame the Soviet era for a lot, but academism in science, a sacred attitude to facts, was beyond any criticism, especially where politics was not concerned. And even then the laboratory of metallography of the Russian Academy of Sciences was (he also directed it), etc. And it would seem - so many years have passed, so the basics you can know. And now people know about some Merchant and Chest, but not about Blacks! But he expresses his opinion. That is so!
        1. Weyland
          Weyland 12 November 2017 14: 48 New
          0
          Quote: kalibr
          Chernykh E.N. Metal. Man. Time. 1972 edition.

          A lot of things are pretty outdated there - read the contemporary works of the same Chernykh hi (he, as a real scientist, is not shy about his own old mistakes and makes corrections to new works)
          1. kalibr
            12 November 2017 15: 57 New
            +1
            I just have a list of his works before my eyes. And the references to them ... It's just that this book is the first work of my level in my life and it all started with it. Therefore, its name is remembered. Others already have to watch ...
            1. Weyland
              Weyland 12 November 2017 23: 10 New
              0
              Quote: kalibr
              It's just that this book is the first work of my level in my life and it all started with it.

              I, too, from this book at one time learned a lot of useful things! drinks
    3. ando_bor
      ando_bor 11 November 2017 21: 25 New
      +1
      Quote: p-k Oparyshev
      Arsenic bronze is the lowest melting point, but simply introducing arsenic would not help. Arsenic would have simply evaporated, according to Andrey Kuptsov.

      And the first copper was not smelted to add arsenic, hydrocarbon ores were reduced, and arsenic is often present in copper ores, there is enough temperature of 700-800 degrees, - a fire in the wind. And the "greens" is hydrocarbonate ore, it got into the fire when the native copper from the "hats" was heated for mechanical processing and cleaning from the same greens - and here again, bronze.
      - Something like this, - of course simplified.
      1. Settlement Oparyshev
        Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 21: 57 New
        0
        Yeah. And all this by the method of gravity. To create copper metallurgy, looking into the fire, is akin to Newton with an apple falling on him.
        1. ando_bor
          ando_bor 12 November 2017 12: 11 New
          +1
          Quote: p-k Oparyshev
          Create copper metallurgy by looking into a bonfire

          You don’t just have to look, you need to work, people have worked with native copper for thousands of years and worked with ceramics by the time bronze was in demand among the masses. Technologies were already ready. And so always, the technological basis at the time of distribution is already known, albeit not perfect, - ceramics, copper, bronze, iron. The spread of all this did not follow the discovery, but the demand, and there the technologies were already being improved.
          1. Settlement Oparyshev
            Settlement Oparyshev 12 November 2017 12: 53 New
            0
            verbiage does not bother you. "people of thousands of years with native copper" and "by the time bronze was in demand among the masses", it is not clear who fed thousands of years of ancient metallurgists, until that time, when bronze became popular. Are you really for free now Do you live?
      2. Weyland
        Weyland 11 November 2017 22: 18 New
        +2
        Quote: ando_bor
        and arsenic in copper ores is often present, there is enough temperature of 700-800 degrees, - a bonfire in the wind.

        Only in the bonfire is the flame oxidizing, and in order to obtain copper, a reducing flame is needed. Copper received for the first time in closed crucible (most likely - as a by-product of obtaining blue glaze for ceramics. And glaze is an ancient and necessary thing, a rat gnaws unglazed ceramics for storing grain)
        1. Settlement Oparyshev
          Settlement Oparyshev 12 November 2017 12: 54 New
          0
          it’s you yourself who thought that the fire is oxidizing.
          1. Weyland
            Weyland 12 November 2017 15: 27 New
            +1
            Quote: p-k Oparyshev
            it’s you yourself who thought that the fire is oxidizing.

            A difficult case ... In fact, with minimal experience, the type of flame can be determined simply by its color - but such great scientists, for their brilliant conclusions about the presence of the eyes of a mole, "do not need some kind of miserable mole!"
  7. soldier
    soldier 11 November 2017 17: 22 New
    16
    Yeah, these peoples of the sea
    It is important that the author considered various approaches to the problem.
    Interesting thanks
  8. kalibr
    11 November 2017 18: 12 New
    +3
    Quote: p-k Oparyshev
    You are probably new to this business, so zealously defending the official

    Are you an old fart in this thread? You have articles, monographs, yes? Horses somehow, from the Bayesian canvas of 1066. Have everyone died, or were they brought by the Indians from America?
    1. Settlement Oparyshev
      Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 19: 43 New
      0
      I’m probably going to go crazy with you soon. Can’t I guess that? As soon as the big ships, with a place for feed and horses, were built, we were immediately taken to England, from the beginning I think to Spain, Morocco, Portugal. From there the main breed of horses. Everything is harosh. You need a break from you.
      1. kalibr
        11 November 2017 20: 47 New
        +3
        And on the Bayesian canvas, the ships are very small ... Do you think so? You know how, really? And about the rest - CORRECTLY, the foam of the brain must be given rest!
        1. Settlement Oparyshev
          Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 21: 03 New
          0
          If people like you, "proffesor", have not learned to write culturally, then what a profession, just like a sub-chantrap chantrap.
          1. kalibr
            11 November 2017 22: 16 New
            +3
            Nafig to us like you generally write something (although we write by heart’s kindness), there aren’t such people ... they still send me a damn thing on Proletarskaya Street. This we, proffesora, are polite to each other .Do you know what song was my favorite in childhood? When I was a boy, I wore flared pants, a straw hat in my pocket, a Finnish knife. I cut my dad, and strangled my mother, drowned my sister-gymnasium in the toilet!
            1. Cat
              Cat 11 November 2017 23: 14 New
              +4
              Vyacheslav Olegovich how to understand this "are we proffessors, are polite to each other"?
              The rest is how? Where to run, where to go !!!
              1. kalibr
                12 November 2017 08: 01 New
                +3
                To understand that ... professors are polite to everyone, and "professors" are only in a narrow circle. But as I was 60, I decided - everything is enough - I see a stupid one, so directly and I tell him - stupid. Is it bad, well, I do not presume to say. But so I decided. I have the right!
                1. Cat
                  Cat 12 November 2017 08: 27 New
                  +3
                  laughing And he - "stupid" will understand this?
                  The trouble with the “prophets” of the new era is that in search of sensation they seek precisely sensation and not truth!
                  1. kalibr
                    12 November 2017 15: 51 New
                    +1
                    It is clear that absolutely no stupid. But at least he will get a lesson. What people see who he is, they send to the bucket and, you see, the same thing - despising good manners, they will tell him. And the crap will not pass. Enough, out of politeness, we got a lot of idiots where we didn’t need to, and then - “Where is he from!” From the camel, no one pulled in time! In general, it would be great if the admins banned the day for at least three nonsense idiots. That would be a wonderful precedent !!! As you can see this - a warning ban for three days in educational whole. Think with your head before you write nonsense.
                2. Settlement Oparyshev
                  Settlement Oparyshev 12 November 2017 12: 06 New
                  0
                  So you are still a young kid, barely 60 hit! And I think. Why is he mad, the young are always like that.
                  1. kalibr
                    12 November 2017 15: 47 New
                    +1
                    "Furious" in this case is written without a soft sign! Secondly, strain the brain foam, or whatever is in the head ... "Knocked", does not mean it was yesterday. And you mean a "veteran" of mental labor, right? Profession - wall head breaker? Where other instruments do not work invite you? Very deserved head job!
                    1. Settlement Oparyshev
                      Settlement Oparyshev 12 November 2017 16: 52 New
                      0
                      Well, you didn’t come up with anything for your life, unlike me.
            2. Settlement Oparyshev
              Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 23: 21 New
              0
              Fortunately, there are few talents like you. They do not itch with a mosquito squeak.
      2. Cat
        Cat 11 November 2017 23: 17 New
        +5
        Opa to Genghis Khan, rode on the donkeys to the last sea, but military donkeys are a "thing"!
        1. Alex1117
          Alex1117 12 November 2017 08: 06 New
          +3
          Well, according to Karamzin (chapter 2, book 8), at the beginning of the reign, our Ivan the Terrible, along with his brothers Yuri Vasilyevich and Vladimir Andreyevich, rode on the greyhounds, leaving behind them .... well, in general, all sorts of bad things.
          1. kalibr
            12 November 2017 15: 43 New
            +3
            So Alexei Mikhailovich went to the relics on a donkey (doc. Order of the Grand Palace), but this did not cancel the local cavalry.
    2. Weyland
      Weyland 12 November 2017 15: 30 New
      +2
      Quote: kalibr
      Horses like, from the Bayesian canvas 1066

      Bayesian tapestry - all right, this is already 1066. And the bas-reliefs with Ramses the Great on a chariot - obviously also a fake? These Fomenkivtsi are so funny ... laughing
      1. kalibr
        12 November 2017 16: 15 New
        +3
        Yes, you're right, I somehow forgot about this bas-relief. And after all, it is huge ... And what for fake it, it's not painting with an electric lamp ...
        1. Cat
          Cat 12 November 2017 20: 04 New
          +3
          To the evil of everyone, O.V. Shpakovsky personally faked, and even for a century before his birth! hi
  9. OAV09081974
    OAV09081974 11 November 2017 19: 26 New
    16
    Bronze Age is over
    But research continues with a distinguished colleague - the author of this article.
    I hope we will pay a visit, albeit in later eras, but nevertheless it’s all the same for us - semi-legendary.
    Thank you! hi
    1. kalibr
      11 November 2017 20: 48 New
      +8
      It will be about the Bronze Age in Cyprus. And maybe about several cultures of the Bronze Age.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. kalibr
          11 November 2017 22: 13 New
          +4
          Ahhh, did the turner judge the baker? Good luck!
          1. Weyland
            Weyland 12 November 2017 15: 34 New
            +2
            Quote: kalibr
            the turner undertook to judge the baker?

            A turner may have a hobby of a baker in which he can succeed. But on the contrary -
            hardly! And here the joke is precisely in the fact that bakers judge turners. As the Bulbash say, "Z kavalya pop can be - and z papa kaval will never be buddy!"
            1. kalibr
              12 November 2017 17: 09 New
              +1
              And here you are 100% right.
      2. OAV09081974
        OAV09081974 11 November 2017 21: 06 New
        17
        Excellent!
        And I thought it was the Bronze Age ended.
        Exactly, because we said that Cyprus is ahead, etc. I forgot, I apologize.
        The article is interesting and colorful. Super!
        Good luck to you with new materials!
  10. Operator
    Operator 11 November 2017 21: 08 New
    +1
    Do not confuse the “peoples of the sea” with the peoples of the land - the Dorians and the peoples of Hallstadt culture. These are completely different ethnic groups operating on different theaters of military operations (sea and land, respectively).

    The "peoples of the sea" captured exclusively coastal and island territories, the land peoples - continental. The former disappeared in history (as their strong points were separate coastal colonies), the latter remained forever (Hellenes and Celts of Europe).

    And yes, it is a mistake to say that the chariot as a combat vehicle became obsolete as far back as the 10th century BC, it was successfully used in Europe for another 400 years until the arrival of Persians with cavalry from Asia.
    1. Settlement Oparyshev
      Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 22: 01 New
      0
      Anything else you can write about the peoples of rivers and lakes, all kinds of Cossacks, but somehow it’s not completely working out. And did land people in the steppes live in weeds?
      1. kalibr
        11 November 2017 22: 41 New
        +3
        Want about the swamp people? And you don’t need to write anything. You type: Corpses in the swamps: Archaeologists are investigating. Shpakovsky V. And material with terrible pictures creeps out to you - br-r. Do not watch at night !!!
        1. Settlement Oparyshev
          Settlement Oparyshev 11 November 2017 23: 23 New
          0
          You are clearly describing your conferences.
          1. kalibr
            12 November 2017 08: 03 New
            +3
            This is an article on the Internet, what you wanted. Explain available?
      2. Cat
        Cat 11 November 2017 23: 11 New
        +5
        The peoples of the sea, the peoples of the land? Yes, it’s time for the “dear” Oparyshev to change the American flag, it is necessary to change it to Egyptian or Greek, so the first ones were mentioned in this transcription, and the last of their memory put their books in! It’s interesting, but frescoes or graffiti were preserved somewhere like pharaohs on military donkeys ......?
        1. Settlement Oparyshev
          Settlement Oparyshev 12 November 2017 12: 08 New
          0
          It will be difficult for you, you still did not have enough Ebibet, with its deposits of nitrate.
          1. kalibr
            12 November 2017 15: 40 New
            +2
            Do you want to quarrel or to let everyone notice and say, pah, what ... pinned down here? They say, believe me. It’s just that people here are polite and on Sunday they don’t feel like having a dog ...
  11. Alex1117
    Alex1117 12 November 2017 08: 25 New
    0
    It is somehow strange about the above reason for the resettlement - drought. Especially with reference to some "ancient Greek sources." As far as I remember, even at school it was taught that the Greeks memorized Homer's poems for several hundred years and passed them word of mouth until they learned to write. And there (at school) they recognized that Homer was not a contemporary of the capture of Troy. And the only, so to speak “source” describing the time after the Trojan War is the Odyssey of the same Homer. And it does not say anything about drought. Even stranger is the fact that even if you imagine that Greece and Asia Minor really had a terrible drought, it would be logical if the "peoples of the sea" moved north - to the places of today's Bulgaria, Romania, and Hungary. But for some reason they flooded into Palestine and Egypt, which even now somehow do not differ in high water levels.
    1. kalibr
      12 November 2017 15: 36 New
      +1
      You know, this phrase I took from the monograph of Elena Savostina. There were links to sources, but I did not refer to it or to them. Well, it’s very difficult to read the text with them, and I don’t see any reason to refer to a bunch of sources in popular articles. It seemed strange to you, another - different! You represent the volume of links and the number of footnotes for all words and positions. By the way, you all wrote correctly !!!!! But. There are many hypotheses, the source base is different. So if I had to do this article on science, it would be simply uninteresting to read — mentions of masses of unknown persons, works, references and references to primary sources, etc. Enough of the fact that I give links in articles on our history (cycle "Poisoned Feather"). And then, there the volume of footnotes is reduced TWO TIMES. Such is the problem. But if you want, I will pick you up literature on this particular event.
    2. Settlement Oparyshev
      Settlement Oparyshev 12 November 2017 16: 57 New
      0
      Well, kharosh laugh it. Oh, and how could drought affect the fishing and other gifts of the Aegean Sea? The people were fishing pirates. Apparently, piracy objects began to go to other areas, so the corsairs followed in their wake.
    3. Weyland
      Weyland 14 November 2017 18: 51 New
      0
      Quote: Alex1117
      It is somehow strange about the above reason for the resettlement - drought. Especially with reference to some "ancient Greek sources."

      The main sources are Egyptian. But they are not talking specifically about drought, but more generally - about hunger. The "peoples of the sea," which Merneptah thrust in 1207 BC, according to him, invaded Egypt, "following the needs of his mouth."
      Judging by archeological data, the drought was in the Northern Black Sea region - it was approximately until the eighth century. BC from the steppe turned into a desert, nomadism almost ceased - and resumed only at the end of the VIII century. to R.X. (Cimmerians raids into the Middle East)
  12. kalibr
    12 November 2017 08: 34 New
    +2
    Quote: Weyland
    forge it was more technological

    What is the same product from bronze, I can’t specify “before every flea”, this is also implied, since before that it was about cast and forged products from bronze.
    1. Settlement Oparyshev
      Settlement Oparyshev 12 November 2017 12: 09 New
      0
      be simpler, or else look drunk.
      1. kalibr
        12 November 2017 15: 28 New
        +1
        Easier for whom? For the plebs? If you want simplicity, go where they discuss what kind of Americans are bad. Bad and all! Much easier. And you can interrupt and even seem reasonable. And complex words do not need to know.
  13. Serge72
    Serge72 12 November 2017 09: 02 New
    16
    The article is a definite plus ++
    Clearly
    Interestingly
    there are plenty of hypotheses, but as it was all to say, of course, no one will undertake, for a very long time all this was

    Certainly
  14. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 12 November 2017 11: 23 New
    +2
    Historians are inclined to believe that the invasion of the "peoples of the sea" was rather a relocation, not
    military raid. It is mentioned that they went along with women and children on land (the Mediterranean coast) from north to south from Asia Minor to Egypt. On the road, they captured all the cities from Aleppo to Gaza.
    They tried to conquer Egypt, but the Egyptians managed to fight back. Among the "peoples of the sea" the Greeks from the defeated Troy and the Achaean Greeks were clearly present. The culture is very similar.
    The peoples of the “sea" were probably called by the Cretans (it is necessary to swim to the island).
    But the conquest was land.
    1. Weyland
      Weyland 14 November 2017 19: 00 New
      0
      Quote: voyaka uh
      But the conquest was land.

      What about the battle of sais? Do you think the "peoples of the sea" came to unite with the Libyans through Palestine? Can you imagine the difficulties of overcoming the swampy Nile Delta? On ships, they sailed to Libya. This is already the 2nd attempt, with Ramses 3m, was by land.
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 14 November 2017 19: 09 New
        0
        I understand that the name "people of the sea" did not arise on an empty
        location. Surely, they mastered navigation perfectly.
        I wrote only that the conquering track from north to south from Asia Minor to
        They made Egypt on foot, and not by sea landing.
        I wonder if they tried to find out the genetic origin of the "people of the sea"
        over the remains of graves?
        The history of the ancient Jews was closely intertwined with the advent of the people of the sea. AND
        exit from Egypt in the "troubled times" caused by (possibly) the invasion of the "people of the sea",
        and centuries of failed battles and cultural contacts with the Philistines.
        1. Weyland
          Weyland 15 November 2017 00: 38 New
          0
          Quote: voyaka uh
          exit from Egypt in the "troubled times", caused (possibly) by the invasion of the "people of the sea", and many centuries of disastrous battles and cultural contacts with the Philistines.

          The Philistines are the “people of the sea” (most likely Pelasgians), and the indigenous people of the region are the Canaanites.
          But logic dictates the reverse course of events: The outcome occurred in 1208 BC. on the eve the first attack of the "peoples of the sea", the Lord's plans were the victory of the "peoples of the sea" and the ruin of Canaan by them - and then the Jews would come "to the ready." But the Jews, on the basis of their intelligence report, were embittered - and God was doomed to 40 years of wandering for this (actually 35 - in 1173 BC, Ramses III broke the “second wave” of the peoples of the sea, but before that they managed to tear Canaan to pieces and to pieces - after which it was already a feasible task for the Jews to conquer a ravaged country (the main problem was the fortresses, for the capture of which the Jews from all the equipment had only the “Jericho trumpets” - but just crempies. It seems that they were mainly destroyed by the “peoples of the sea”) .
  15. kalibr
    12 November 2017 16: 17 New
    +2
    Quote: p-k Oparyshev
    Opsaryshev Yesterday, 19:43 ↑
    I’m probably going to go crazy with you soon.

    That would be happiness for society. If only away from the keyboard!
    1. Settlement Oparyshev
      Settlement Oparyshev 12 November 2017 16: 58 New
      0
      Your happiness is in your brain movements. Apparently after a long stagnation.
      1. kalibr
        12 November 2017 17: 11 New
        +1
        That's cool! “Your happiness is in your brain movements” - I will insert an epigraph in one of my articles!