"Citizen", above the head

Equipment options developed tanks recent modifications with additional protection systems, which should increase their effectiveness in urban combat. However, two main issues have not been resolved - the need for a significant increase in visibility and the possibility of using a tank gun for targets located on the upper floors.

Therefore, instead of upgrading existing tanks, it would be more efficient to develop a special combat module with a gun, which has a low initial velocity of the projectile and ammunition of increased power for the destruction of all sorts of durable structures. Plus, of course, all kinds of active and passive protection systems. And this module should be placed on simple carriers in order to reduce the cost of the whole complex.

The idea is not new. The experience of the war in urban environments - the Berlin operation 1945 of the year, the storming of Grozny, the recent battles in Syria - showed the high vulnerability of tanks to the numerous threats inherent in this specific type of fighting. This is mainly shelling from various nearby shelters: from windows and from roofs of houses, from basements, sewer manholes, ruins of buildings, etc., which makes it possible to secretly use anti-tank weapons in all projections of the vehicle, including from above. Existing projects propose using T-72, T-80, T-90 standing on armament as a basis for creating a “city” tank by equipping them with additional means of passive and active protection with a bulldozer, smoke screen systems. However, such an upgrade, although it increases the security of the tank, does not eliminate its main drawbacks - poor visibility and the inability to use the gun on the upper floors of buildings and structures due to small angles of vertical guidance, from minus 6 to plus 14 degrees.

Therefore, the most promising direction for the creation of a tank for use in the built-up area is the development of a combat module installed instead of a tower of samples stored in storage. An analogue is the development of the KV-2 based on the KV-1 based on the results of the analysis of military operations in the Finnish campaign. The main purpose of the KV-2 - a breakthrough of powerful defensive fortifications such as the Mannerheim Line.

The proposed module can be equipped with a powerful large-caliber 2C9 “Nona S” type gun (120 mm) with high-explosive, concrete-breaking and thermo-barometric ammunition. Plus, it is necessary to complete the observation devices, expanding the review of the crew. The base for such a tank should be as cheap as possible given the fact that the main buyers of such machines are not very rich countries, and the additional means of protection plus a combat module cost a lot of money. It is advisable to use the T-55, T-62, and T-64 series tanks that are in storage.

The Russian army is hardly interested in a significant number of armored "citizens". Therefore, it is necessary to prepare several copies of this equipment with different equipment options and conduct their tests in real combat conditions in Syria, and then decide on the best protection and armament.

Comments

[svp67]

Therefore, the most promising direction of creating a tank for use in a built-up area is the development of a combat module installed instead of the tower of samples stored in storage.

Here is the best “Citizen”, at the moment ... he would still have a dump ahead of him and in general ...

The proposed module can be equipped with a powerful large-caliber gun type 2S9 "Nona S" (120 mm) with high-explosive fragmentation, concrete-piercing and thermobaric ammunition.

No, this gun does not have the necessary power, and most importantly, the rate of fire. Missiles mounted on BMPT with various warheads will completely replace it

[max702]

Once upon a time, everything was invented ..

[svp67]

Quote: max702

Once upon a time, everything was invented ..

Booking is not at the right level with this "invented".

[max702]

That's the problem with DZ boxes and screens!
The most important thing here is the composition of the weapons! And he is almost perfect! Finalize in accordance with current realities and all.

[svp67]

Quote: max702

That's the problem with DZ boxes and screens!

First, "hang", and then you will see what happens, but it turns out that BMPT is better in all respects.

Quote: max702

The most important thing here is the composition of the weapons! And he is almost perfect!

Alas, practice shows that no. It is difficult to use for gunners.

[max702]

Quote: svp67

Alas, practice shows that no. It is difficult to use for gunners.

Uh, what's the difficulty? can you give me more details? it seems like news came from Yemen that the composition of the BMP-3 armament was completely satisfactory for the users .. But the protection is just not there ..

[marshes]

Quote: svp67

No, this gun does not have the necessary power, and most importantly, the rate of fire. Missiles mounted on BMPT with various warheads will completely replace it

BMPT simply by theory will be quickly burned in the city. Teachings no matter how they conducted with us, BMPT users.
But the quote about 120 mm was given, it is the most significant for the city. As the possibility of application was "sucked" here, Lopatov and AVT will not be allowed to lie.

[svp67]

Quote: marshes

BMPT simply theoretically quickly burned in the city

What theory? These are all words NOT STRENGTHENED BY PRACTICE.

Quote: marshes

But the quote about 120 mm resulted, it is the most significant for the city.

But not NONA ... Low projectile speed, meaning low armor penetration, low rate of fire. Modern construction does not give a chance to protect ourselves from the high-speed 30-mm shell of our automatic guns, and the fire can be quickly thrown from floor to floor without endangering your assault groups, which turned out to be a floor lower or higher.

[marshes]

Quote: svp67

What theory? These are all words NOT STRENGTHENED BY PRACTICE.

In the process of training, after all, Kazakhstan is the only BMPT operator.

Quote: svp67

But not NONA ... Low projectile speed, meaning low armor penetration, low rate of fire.

But it is not needed, work on goals and penetration, at least 500 mm of masonry, will carry the main thing. Especially when building skyscrapers where ordinary brick is filled, the wall thickness in the region of one brick is 250 mm.

Quote: svp67

. Modern construction does not give a chance to protect ourselves from the high-speed 30-mm shell of our automatic guns, and the fire can be quickly thrown from floor to floor without endangering your assault groups, which turned out to be a floor lower or higher.

Well, this is from the crafty one, just a BMPT with a hinged one, when you go to the city it will immediately lose everything. It’s easier to shoot from a dominant height.
We have the commander’s vehicles for the Sturm-S. Here is their essence., Instead of an infantry fighting vehicle.

[svp67]

Quote: marshes

In the process of training, after all, Kazakhstan is the only BMPT operator.

That the "operator" is so YES. But what is your army’s combat experience? In what year did she storm the last city? And with what technique?

[marshes]

Quote: svp67

That the "operator" is so YES. But what is your army’s combat experience? In what year did she storm the last city? And with what technique?

It’s easier to test it on the exercises than on your own skin. Two years ago, the whole former town was demolished, even the engineers disposed of it. By the way, yours were there and you stood with open mouths.

[svp67]

Quote: marshes

It’s easier to test it in exercises than in your own skin

I do not remember more than one doctrine, where "their" would be losers. In war this is not always the case. Already a huge difference.
Take at least history, the Germans, during the three years of the First World War, fighting against tanks, did not appreciate their significance and prospects. Rather, their command. To do this, it was necessary to completely replace it and lead to the management of those who directly fought against enemy tanks. But no one can call the Germans bad soldiers.

[marshes]

Quote: svp67

I do not remember more than one doctrine, where "their" would be losers. In war this is not always the case. Already a huge difference.

It’s just that your observers were shocked by the possibility of using the available weapons with us, in terms of liberating the village, ours easier to solve the 6-hour warning and then razed the town to the ground. It’s not according to the rules of warfare.

Quote: svp67

Take at least history, the Germans, during the three years of the First World War, fighting against tanks, did not appreciate their significance and prospects. Rather, their command. To do this, it was necessary to completely replace it and lead to the management of those who directly fought against enemy tanks. But no one can call the Germans bad soldiers.

We are not Germans, but Asians, by the way, someone wrote about the army, supposedly imperial. Like Dostoevsky, few people will have a resentment. Then, the most interesting NATO people were worried about waging war and prisoners of war, they started conducting trainings, but handing out memos. Yesterday, the international convention for the protection of honey. workers signed up.
Damn BARBARA after all

[svp67]

Quote: marshes

Damn BARBARA after all

Zillions - you. We - the darkness and darkness and darkness.
Try, fight with us!
Yes, we are Scythians! Yes, Asians - we,
With slanted and greedy eyes!
AA Blok

[marshes]

Quote: svp67

Zillions - you. We - the darkness and darkness and darkness.
Try, fight with us!
Yes, we are Scythians! Yes, Asians - we,
With slanted and greedy eyes!
AA Blok

Well, you round-eyed can confirm this sometimes I hear the female genital is combined with the visual, and here in Kazakhstan, when the vocabulary of curses has been exhausted. And in Moscow I heard quite often. At the beginning of 00 and in the middle, now it’s dangerous.

[Kasym]

Bolot, brother, but you’ll not be able to raze your own settlement, which was taken hostage by the barmalei. Remember, when we smoked bearded bees in Russia or in Russia, we did not use 125 mm. 30 mm BTR or BMP guns were enough for the eyes. The BMPT also has grenade launchers that can be operated through the home. ATGM as a high-precision, work on protected firing points. A 125 mm. not only the house will be demolished, but it will not seem enough to neighbors, given the destruction of the entire infrastructure of the house. In urban combat, any "large barrel" should be considered as a firing point that needs to be equipped (with garbage to create a defensive position so that only the barrel sticks out) and moved as infantry moves. And do not stick it to the very front under attack - and with the Molotov cocktail you can throw any BTT.
. The Russian generals were probably shocked by the methods of Genghis Khan - this applies when all of us. the item is "hostile". By the way, in Afghanistan, not one aul was demolished.

[mr.Man]

Quote: svp67

Missiles mounted on BMPT with various warheads will completely replace it

BMPT is not that .. for some it only serves to support tanks and for nothing else.
They need a tank
---------------------------
- What is this?!
- Dumplings!
“But this is ravioli!”
“But first they are dumplings, and then everything else!” Well this is dumplings, Mikhalych!
- Mnda! Ravioli.

[svp67]

Quote: mr.Man

BMPT is not that .. for some

For the rest - WHAT IS BMPT AND NO ONE JUST UNDERSTANDS. Only after obtaining sufficient combat experience of their application it will be possible to draw certain conclusions, and since a single instance is now fighting, experience will accumulate VERY slowly.

[strannik1985]

Affiget, they have been developing it for about 30 years, they have been trying to sell it since the beginning of 2000, but nobody knows anything.

[svp67]

Quote: strannik1985

Affiget, they have been developing it for about 30 years, they have been trying to sell it since the beginning of 2000, but nobody knows anything.

The paradox of Russian reality. That only now they began to pay attention to it, and thanks to Syria ...

[strannik1985]

No, until Shoigu the army simply could refuse this machine.

[svp67]

Quote: strannik1985

No, until Shoigu the army simply could refuse this machine.

What did she successfully do ...

[Per se.]

Quote: svp67

WHAT IS BMPT NOT ONLY WHO DOES KNOW?

Perhaps call the car somehow easier, without this abbreviation (BMPT), for example, a support tank, it was clearer. I agree with you, Sergey, about the comment. From myself I want to add, in my humble opinion, more questions are raised by the needfulness of the BMPT, and the need for a heavy BMP. If we talk about the use of a tank base, then there is much more logic in the "heavy BMP" of tandem type, where the specialized fire component would be from BMPT (like "Terminator"), and the transport component would be from heavy BTR (based on BMO-T, or, if here use base from t-xnumx, then btr-t). Speaking of heavy armored personnel carriers, we must immediately emphasize that a person sees the most optimal landing in 55, so as to place the infantry as comfortably as possible, it takes less time to dismount (infantrymen’s readiness for combat as a combat group during disembarkation), and if they defeat Armored personnel carriers with infantry will be less casualty than in an armored bus for 6-10 people. Naturally, the BMPT, being essentially a tank, can immediately move into the first line (or ahead of its tanks), and a heavy BTR, for the second line, with its main transport function with enhanced protection. In addition, BMPT seems to be the most suitable vehicle for street fighting, especially if there are modifications to it with various weapons, and especially if it is weapons that can be reloaded in field conditions, like combat load and combat modules on airplanes. In general, it has long been known that fighting in the city is the most difficult type of combat for any equipment (and not only for equipment), therefore, speculation in defying BMPT must be taken very critically, I repeat, it is BMPT that has tank protection and specialized weapons suitable for street fighting, and no perversions with tanks and stupidity with "heavy BMP", this machine will not replace.

[SMP]

No, this gun does not have the necessary power, and most importantly, the rate of fire. Missiles mounted on BMPT with various warheads will completely replace it

120 mm mine NONA has a high-impact almost comparable to a 152 mm howitzer landmine, I didn’t come up with it, in all the programs they talk about it, this is the first.
Second, you overlooked that 120 mm is a universal tool mine firing, that is, on a steep path, and can get into the roof for example Abrams who is hiding behind houses.

And if you create a mine correctable in flight with the principles of guidance close to Kasnopol shells, then the battery of such mortar self-propelled guns from the first salvo with four cumulative mines that can be adjusted in flight will cover any enemy tank (an interesting reduction is obtained by SMU self-propelled mortar installation ) .
I am glad that amers have no analogue of NONA.

[strannik1985]

Actually, Americans have a lot of self-propelled mortars, there is no analogue capable of direct fire, so this is not the main way of shooting.
It’s bad that we have had an epic for 30 years with the replacement of 2C12 with a self-propelled mortar.

[svp67]

Quote: SMP

The 120 mm NONA mine has a high-explosive impact almost comparable to the 152 mm howitzer high-explosive mine, this is not what I came up with, they are talking about it in all programs, this is the first.

This is true and no one will deny it. But the fact of the matter is that sometimes this is superfluous. When the assault groups move up the floors, sometimes a “layered cake” is obtained in the houses and there one must act with a “scalpel” and not with a “sledgehammer”. And on the account of the "striking elements" I assure you that flying pieces of concrete, bricks and cinder blocks will be quite deadly, and where the 30-mm power is not enough, you can add a rocket.

Quote: SMP

Second, you have lost sight of the fact that 120 mm is a universal weapon firing mines, that is, on a steep path, and will be able to get into the roof for example Abrams who is hiding behind houses.

Do you think that this "citizen" should become a "jack of all trades"? This will never happen. Battle formations will include both artillery and mortar support units.

[SMP]

Do you think that this "citizen" should become a "jack of all trades"? This will never happen. Battle formations will include both artillery and mortar support units.

No, I don’t think and I don’t argue with you, this is only an addition to both Terminator-2 and heavy APCs, such as BMO-T, (about Armata T-15 is not fate is too expensive)
Also, a self-propelled mortar installation will be able to perform the function that was performed by the Acacia self-propelled guns in Afghanistan, namely the escort of columns, only at Acacia the armor is thin and which was strengthened as best they could.
ZSU Shilka and self-propelled guns Acacia were placed in the protection of the columns performing tasks for which both were not created.

Now it’s good that they adopted Terminator-2, which will replace Shilka ZSU, but how to replace the Acacia self-propelled guns, which sprayed dushmans with shrapnel and land mines?
Just the same SMU city dweller with a 120 mm mortar NONA is capable of this, that is, not only for the city but also for fighting in the mountains and escorting convoys together with the Terminators.

[Alekseev]

Quote: SMP

The 120 mm mine of NONA has a high-explosive impact almost comparable to the 152 mm howitzer high-explosive mine, this is not what I came up with, they are talking about it in all programs, this is the first

Dear transmission ...
How can this be if a 120 mm mine weighing 16-19 kg contains up to 3 kg of explosives, and 40 kg of a 152 mm shell over 7 kg?
This is not to be equated with, although the programs say "individual civilians."

Quote: SMP

And if you create a correctable in flight mine

It has long been created, "Edge" is called.
As for the assault gun or city tank, or highly protected self-propelled guns, or BMPT, it seems that we need two options.
152-mm howitzer-gun, which has the ability to hit targets as direct fire, and located behind shelters, houses, destroy bunkers and BMPT type "Terminator" for the respective purposes.

[SMP]

As for the assault gun or city tank, or highly protected self-propelled guns, or BMPT, it seems that we need two options.
152-mm howitzer-gun, which has the ability to hit targets as direct fire, and located behind shelters, houses, destroy bunkers and BMPT type "Terminator" for the respective purposes.

Last year I watched an interview with Shamanov, personally said the Airborne Forces is working on a new 152 mm NONA mortar, so it’s still years old, and samples will appear, but we won’t know about them, unless in fifteen years they will show something.

And 120 mm is a universal mortar gun capable of firing 120 mm NATO mines, and even a bunch of ammunition, was created for deep raids in Western Europe, and the use of NATO ammunition. But the USSR mines have a high explosive effect close to 152 mm shells, will they not lie at all sources?

And so after the experience of Syria, when they process it, they will give out some kind of assignment to the mountain, but it is too early to say.
So exchange assumptions, but also interesting.

[NIKNN]

Well, what kind of tank is it with a gun of type 2C9 "Nona C". It’s already necessary to develop something like “an armored vehicle for urban combat, such as a BMVGB or something "There will be little in common with the tank. And what doesn’t the Terminator like for these purposes?

[210ox]

I think armored vehicles are not suitable in the city. Shock-assault groups, mine clearance systems, possibly bulldozers ..

[Doliva63]

Why didn’t they bother with city tanks before, but focused on assault units (including engineering)? Because this nedotank can smash everything around, but he won’t take the house / street / city. My father said, after the liberation of Budapest, we gained such experience that we could take any city quickly and with minimal losses. He fought then just in the assault regiment.
By the way, in the 68th, when they entered Prague, part 14 of the MSD was reinforced by officers of other formations and parts of the 20 Guards OA who had experience in urban battles in the Second World War.

[andrewkor]

Let me correct you: they did not release Budapest, but took it, as the capital of the most devoted ally of Nazi Germany, and the medal from your esteemed father was "For the capture of Budapest."

[marshes]

Quote: andrewkor

They didn’t release Budapest, but took it as the capital of Germany’s most devoted ally and the medal from your esteemed father “For the capture of Budapest”.

By the way, I read memoirs, there was pretty tough resistance. If you take into account that there was no desire to level the city down, the command gave an account for their actions. Here, it is clear that they would not look like barbarians. There were very high losses. If you take into account that panzerfausts were actively used . I can’t name the book, I read in the 90s in the attire, our answer is social. networks and the Internet.

[Xscorpion]

By default, tanks are not for urban conditions, and their distance to the enemy on foot should be at least 800 meters, if closer, the battle tactics from around the corner are used, left, fired and immediately hid .. Their task is fire support of the advancing infantry, in those cases when the capacity of regular infantry fire means is insufficient, the protection of tanks is assigned to the infantry. Monitoring of all buildings in the district, reconnaissance and combat protection. All tank losses in the city are connected precisely with the problem of protecting tanks, infantry commanders or physically cannot take control of everything buildings in the district where the tank will operate, due to lack of personnel, or because of their illiteracy, when they simply do not attach importance to the importance of this event, incorrectly assess the situation, such as the tank that it will be. There was also insufficient training of tank crews to actions in the city, in particular the crew’s self-confidence that they are under reliable protection of the armor, as well as their performance of unusual functions in particular, covering the infantry with their armor, which is hiding behind them, instead of ensuring the timely detection of the enemy. And hanging tons of useless trash on the tank, inventing some new weapons is not that. The tank will cease to be a tank. Need or the right tactic or a fundamentally new armored vehicle, very slow, but highly armored from all directions, with twin automatic guns 30 mm and 122 mm from the sau.

[marshes]

Quote: Xscorpion

, with twin automatic guns 30 mm and 122 mm from the sau.

At first they came to Bahce, but it seemed a little 100, so 120 is the most. Yes, without 30k. Plus two machine guns 12,7 and 7,62 in independent turrets, you can supplement the AGS with ohms.

[max702]

at 120mm automatic loading is problematic ..
Whether this problem was solved at Vienna is not known ....

[marshes]

Quote: max702

at 120mm automatic loading is problematic ..
Whether this problem was solved at Vienna is not known ....

Yes, you don’t need automation, enough 4 loaders, with "your machine gun" and the BC to move out of the tower aft niche, so that the crew would not die heroically when undermined.

[Wolka]

Th city fence, well, there is a terminator, if necessary, a little refine for specific tasks and on the road ... and the chassis from the t-55 and t-72 are quite suitable

[Sars]

Let me say one amateurish cape: To storm a fortified city, we need specially trained units armed with specialized equipment (50 tons of armored bulldozers, 70 tons of tanks, mine clearing facilities, flamethrower tanks, etc. That is, combat units surround the city and support specialists with fire mopping up.