Military Review

Katyn tragedy: historical lessons

144
16 April 2012 The European Court of Human Rights will deliver the final verdict on the so-called Katyn case. One of the Polish radio stations referring to the lawyers of the claimants, Mr. Kaminski, reports that the ECHR meeting will be held in an open form, and therefore the whole world will finally know about the true truth regarding Katyn. In principle, one can especially not even guess what the verdict of the court will be. One can only guess what kind of a mine it is laying under the further development of the Russian Federation and its attitude to it from the international community. Russia, by the way, recognizes at the state level that the shooting of Polish officers was the work of NKVD servicemen who acted on the orders of Stalin and Beria, as even President Medvedev stated at the time.




The crux of the matter is to accuse the Soviet authorities of the 40 model of the fact that, according to their orders, on the territory of the Smolensk region alone, according to one data, about 4,5 thousands, and under another - 20 thousands of Polish soldiers. At the same time, if such a verdict is accepted (which is already beyond doubt), then, as often happens, the fault will automatically be transferred to modern Russia.

Recall that the first talk about the tragedy in the Katyn Forest, was instituted in 1943 by the Nazi occupation forces. Then the German servicemen discovered (this word could, in principle, be written in quotes) near Smolensk in the Katyn area and at the Gnezdovo station mass grave of Polish (precisely Polish) officers. This news it was immediately presented as a fact of mass extermination of Polish prisoners by representatives of the NKVD. At the same time, the Germans stated that they had conducted a thorough investigation and established that the shooting took place in the spring of 1940, which once again proves the “Stalinist trace” in this matter. The NKVD allegedly used the “Walter” and “Browning” pistols with German “Geko” bullets to produce mass executions in order to cast a shadow on the “most humane” German fascist army in the world. The Soviet Union, for obvious reasons, subjected all the conclusions of the German commission to complete obstruction.

However, in the 1944 year, when Soviet troops drove the Nazis from the territory of the Smolensk region, and an investigation into this fact was already conducted by Moscow. According to the findings of the Moscow commission, which included public figures, military experts, doctors of medical sciences and even representatives of the clergy, it turned out that, together with the Poles, the bodies of several hundred Soviet soldiers and officers rest in the huge graves of the Katyn forest. The Soviet commission pointed out that the killings of thousands of prisoners of war were committed by the Nazis in the autumn of 1941. Of course, the conclusions of the Soviet commission 1944 of the year also cannot be taken unequivocally, but our task is to approach the consideration of the so-called Katyn issue from an objective point of view, based on facts, and not unsubstantiated accusations. Have this stories too many pitfalls, but trying not to pay attention to them means trying to dissociate oneself from Russian history.

The point of view of the commission of the 1944 model of the year on the Katyn tragedy in the Soviet Union persisted for several decades, while in 1990, Mikhail Gorbachev never handed over to the Polish President Wojciech Jaruzelski the so-called “new materials” on the Katyn case, after which the whole world spoke about the crimes of Stalinism against Polish officers. What were these "new materials"? They were based on secret documents that were allegedly signed by I.V. Stalin, L.P. Beria and other high-ranking statesmen of the Soviet state. Even during the transfer of these documents into the hands of Mikhail Gorbachev, experts said that he should not be in a hurry to draw conclusions from these materials, because these documents do not give direct evidence of the shootings of the Poles by the NKVD units and need to be checked for authenticity. However, Mr. Gorbachev did not wait for the end of the examination of the documents and the further conclusions of the commission on this difficult matter, and decided to disclose a “terrible secret” about the atrocities of the Soviet regime.



In this connection, the first discrepancy arises, which indicates that it is too early to put an end to the Katyn question. Why were these secret documents surfaced in February 1990? But they, and before that, at least twice could give publicity.

The first publicity of the execution of Polish officers by the hands of Soviet security officers could appear even during the celebrated 20th Congress of the Central Committee of the CPSU, when the personality cult of J.V. Stalin was dethroned by N.S. Khrushchev. In principle, in 1956 the year Khrushchev could not only condemn Stalin’s crimes on the territory of the USSR, but also receive simply tremendous foreign policy dividends on the “disclosure of the Katyn secret”, because shortly before this, the US Congress commission also dealt with the Katyn case. But Khrushchev did not take advantage of this opportunity. Yes, and could use? Did you have these “documents” at the time? And to say that he did not know anything about the real situation at the beginning of 40's with Polish prisoners of war was naive ...

The publicity could have taken place in the initial period of Gorbachev’s power in power, but for some reason did not take place. Why did it take place in February 1990 of the year? Perhaps the secret lies in the fact that all these “new materials”, about which, strangely, nothing was known before 1990, were merely fabricated, and such systematic falsification was carried out at the end of 80, when the Soviet Union already headed for rapprochement with the West. The real “historical bombs” were needed.

By the way, this point of view can be questioned as much as you like, but there are the results of the documentation examination of the very “new materials” of the Katyn case. It turned out that the documents bearing the signatures of Stalin and other persons demanding to consider the cases of Polish prisoners of war in a special order were printed on one typewriter, and the sheets with the final signature of Beria on another. In addition, on one of the extracts of the final decision taken at the meeting of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) of March 1940, the seal with the attributes and name of the CPSU appeared in a strange way. Strange, because the Communist Party of the Soviet Union itself appeared only in 1952 year. Such inconsistencies were also announced during the so-called Round Table on the Katyn issue, organized in the State Duma in 2010.

But this is also where inconsistencies in the Katyn tragedy, in which they have recently seen only evidence of the guilt of the NKVD officers, do not end. In the materials of the cases that have already been transferred to the Polish side, and this is more than fifty volumes, there are several documents that cast doubt on the date of the mass execution near Katyn - April-May 1940 of the year. These documents are letters from Polish servicemen, which were dated in the summer and autumn of 1941, the time when Hitler's troops were already in charge of Smolensk land.

If you believe that the NKVD decided to specifically shoot the Poles from German weapons and German bullets, then why did it even need to be done? Indeed, in Moscow, at that time, they still could not have known that in a year or so, fascist Germany would attack the Soviet Union ...

The German commission, which worked at the site of the tragedy, found that the hands of the shot were tied with special cotton laces made in Germany. All this, again, suggests that the shrewd NKVD-shniki already knew that Germany would attack the USSR and, apparently, ordered not only Browns in Berlin, but also these strings to cast a shadow on Germany.
The same commission found a large amount of foliage in the fraternal (spontaneous) graves near Katyn, which obviously could not crumble from trees in April, but this indirectly confirms that the massacres of Polish and Soviet prisoners of war could have been committed in the fall of 1941.

It turns out that in the Katyn case there are a large number of questions that still do not find unequivocal answers, to be firmly convinced that shooting is the work of the NKVD. In fact, the entire evidence base, declaring the Soviet Union guilty, is built on the very documents whose authenticity is clearly in doubt. The appearance of these documents precisely in 1990, says only that the Katyn case was actually being prepared as another blow to the integrity of the USSR, which at that time was already experiencing enormous difficulties.

Now it is worth referring to the so-called eyewitness accounts. At the end of 30-x - the beginning of 40 — x, in the territory located at 400-500 meters from the place where mass shootings were subsequently carried out, the so-called government dacha was located. According to the testimony of the employees of this dacha, famous people like Voroshilov, Kaganovich and Shvernik liked to come here to rest. The documents that “declassified” in 90 explicitly state that these visits took place when there were mass executions of Polish officers in the forest under the Kozi Gory Mountains (the former name of Katyn). It turns out that high-ranking officials went to rest at the place of a giant cemetery ... They could simply not know about its existence - an argument that is difficult to take seriously. If the executions took place exactly in April-May 1940, in the immediate vicinity of the very government dacha, then it turns out that the NKVD decided to violate the unshakable instructions on the order of executions. This instruction clearly states that mass executions should be carried out in places located no closer than 10 km from cities - at night. And here - in 400 m and not even from the city, but from the place where the political elite came to fish and breathe in the fresh air. It is hard to imagine how Klim Voroshilov fished when several bulldozers worked several hundred meters from him, burying thousands of corpses in the ground. At the same time they were buried lightly. It was established that the bodies of some of the executed were barely covered with sand, and therefore the hellish smell of numerous corpses was supposed to spread through the forest. This is how the government dacha ... It all looks somehow unintelligible, taking into account the thoroughness of the NKVD’s approach to such matters.

In 1991, the former head of the NKVD, P.Soprunenko, stated that in March, 1940 had in his hands a paper with a Politburo resolution signed by Joseph Stalin about the execution of Polish officers. This is another reason to doubt the materials of the case, since it is known for certain that Comrade Soprunenko could in no way hold such a document in his hands, so his powers did not extend so far. It is difficult to suppose that this document was “given to hold” by L. Beria himself in March 1940 of the year, because just a month before Nikolay Yezhov, arrested by the ex-People's Commissar of the Interior, was shot on charges of attempting to carry out a coup d'etat. Did Beria really feel so free that he could walk around the cabinets with the secret decisions of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and give them "hold in their hands" to anyone they wish ... Naive thoughts ...

As Vyacheslav Shved says in the comments to his book The Secret of Katyn, the falsification of historical materials took place at different times and in different countries. One of the clearest examples of falsification in the United States is the accusation of Oswald that he single-handedly decided to kill President Kennedy. It was only after more than 40 years that it turned out that a multi-stage plot was plotted against a large number of characters against John Kennedy.

It is possible that the Katyn tragedy is also being tried to present in a way that benefits certain political circles. Instead of conducting a truly objective investigation and complete declassification of documentary data, the information war continues around the massacre of Polish and Soviet servicemen, which causes another blow to Russia's authority.

In this regard, it is interesting to draw attention to the recent decision of the Tverskoy Court on the suit of E.Ya. Dzhugashvili defending the honor and dignity of his grandfather I. Dzhugashvili (Stalin), accused of shooting Polish prisoners of war. Stalin's grandson requires the State Duma to remove the phrase from the parliamentary statement that the Katyn massacre took place on the direct instructions of Joseph Stalin. I note that this is the second such lawsuit to the State Duma by the grandson of Stalin (the first was dismissed by the court).

Despite the fact that the Tverskoy court dismissed the second lawsuit, its decision cannot be called unequivocal. In her final ruling, Judge Fedosova stated that “Stalin was one of the leaders of the USSR during the Katyn tragedy in September 1941 years". By these words alone, the Tverskoy court, obviously unwillingly, managed to emphasize that all the documents in the case of the executed Polish officers are possibly a crude forger, which has yet to be seriously studied, and then draw real independent conclusions on its basis. This once again suggests that whatever decision the ECHR may take, it obviously will not rely on all the historical facts of the tragedy that still causes conflicting feelings.

Of course, the shooting of thousands of Polish officers is a huge national tragedy in Poland, and this tragedy in Russia is understood by most people and share the Polish grief. And at the same time, we must not forget that in addition to Polish officers, tens of millions of other people disappeared in that big war, whose descendants also dream of a decent attitude to the memory of their fallen ancestors from the state and the public. One may exaggerate the Katyn tragedy as much as necessary, but it does not need to deliberately keep silent about thousands and thousands of other victims of the Second World War, about how today nationalist movements are actively raising their heads in the Baltic countries, to which for some reason Poland has a very warm attitude. History, as is known, does not know the subjunctive mood, so history must be treated objectively. At each historical stage of development of any state, a very controversial period can be found, and if all these historical disputes are used to escalate new conflicts, this will lead to a grandiose catastrophe that will simply crush civilization.
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  1. raptor_fallout
    raptor_fallout 27 March 2012 09: 01
    +40
    I have a different opinion about Katyn, unlike Poland, Europe and Mr. Medvedev, but I will not present it here, I shouted hoarsely about it on other sites where the trolls are the majority. I have a different question. Why the Russian Federation will not sue and accusations to European countries for World War II, I’m not talking about Germany right now; everything is clear there. I am talking about Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, and a number of countries that position themselves as fighters against fascism, but whose soldiers for some reason ended up in the ranks fascists and God knows what atrocities committed in the territory of the USSR.
    1. Dobrokhod Sergey
      Dobrokhod Sergey 27 March 2012 10: 44
      0
      What are you! Liliput loyal sons of the world bitch-shit democracy, how will they yap at those who feed them.
    2. re321
      re321 27 March 2012 12: 28
      .
      So who does the author of the article blame for the massacre of thousands of Polish officers? Something I personally did not understand his cunning idea ... WHO did it SPECIFICALLY? Everywhere we hear only INDIRECT, supposedly evidence that - this is not the NKVD .. so who ?!
      1. revnagan
        revnagan 27 March 2012 12: 53
        +17
        Quote: re321
        so who ?!
        Gestapo. What did you want to hear, citizen flying the German flag?
        1. Vasilenko Vladimir
          Vasilenko Vladimir 27 March 2012 16: 00
          +2
          absolutely not necessary
          1. predator
            predator 27 March 2012 18: 46
            +3
            my opinion is, perhaps ours shot some of the Poles, maybe the participants in the Soviet-Polish war, then in 41-42 the Germans "added" and off they went, and why the Germans made it public only in 43.
            The Lord God has already put an end to this story by "landing" the Polish croaker on the Smolensk land.
            1. Sergh
              Sergh 27 March 2012 23: 27
              +4
              Humpbacked shit everywhere, everywhere he spread his homo, it would be better if he had been crushed in Davos even then. You already begin to doubt, but the GKChP was not right in those other years.
            2. Zynaps
              Zynaps 28 March 2012 00: 39
              +4
              in fact, it was never concealed that before the war the Poles, guilty of crimes against the civilian population of Z. Ukraine and Z. Belarus, were shot. officers of the "Difenziva" security service, posadniks, representatives of the judicial and punitive bodies were arrested and shot.

              For fans of the "trail of the NKVD" in the Katyn case, the most vulnerable part is not only the documents, but also the motives behind the shooting of the army officers of the Polish army. in the case of the Germans, everything is clear. in the case of the NKVD, a mystery. why exactly these? if there was a bunch of other Poles, of whom Anders' army, which draped towards the allies, and the newly formed Polish Army were later formed.
            3. Che
              Che 29 March 2012 08: 01
              +1
              Respect to the predator. No wonder they say God marks the hoes.
        2. Zynaps
          Zynaps 28 March 2012 00: 33
          +2
          not the Gestapo, but the SD Einsatzkommando.
      2. Vasilenko Vladimir
        Vasilenko Vladimir 27 March 2012 16: 00
        0
        Quote: re321
        INDIRECT

        and the problem is precisely this, if there were direct ones, either the Psheks would yell as they were said, or we would send them far and long
      3. HAUSER
        HAUSER 27 March 2012 22: 40
        0
        The accident ended up at the wrong time, in the wrong place. And after all, history does not teach anything. You yourself are positioning yourself as enemies of Russia, and it happened that Stalin, Beria, the NKVD are to blame.
      4. Che
        Che 29 March 2012 07: 59
        0
        The German special services worked wonderfully, and then their successors, the CIA.
    3. FIMUK
      FIMUK 27 March 2012 14: 15
      .
      Yes, there’s only one Polyakov option — the Germans shot with ours, with the permission of Stalin.
      These officers, both the Germans and the Germans interfered with-and why the military especially the officers, the country which has already been divided.
      In another way, it is impossible to explain the ropes of a bullet liner of German manufacture on the territory of the USSR in 1940.
      Plus, the current situation in Russia and Germany - Germans already weigh so much that their mother doesn’t cry from them like water off a duck's back. and here it is beneficial for Russia to show that they say we have repented here we are so democratic today.
      ..... USSR and Germany until June 1941 were accomplices.
      1. Dobrokhod Sergey
        Dobrokhod Sergey 27 March 2012 15: 31
        +8
        A lot of you walk here.
        FIMA, you are not original in accusing the cooperation of the USSR and Germany. This is generally called economic ties. Poland, by the way, did not refuse to trade with Nazi Germany, and the United States traded even when it was at war with Germany.
        You probably forgot these facts?
      2. Vasilenko Vladimir
        Vasilenko Vladimir 27 March 2012 16: 01
        +4
        Quote: FIMUK
        The USSR and Germany until June 1941 were accomplices.

        well then pshek with the Germans until September 39 accomplices
        1. Major major
          Major major 27 March 2012 21: 02
          +1
          Yes, even what!
          For some reason, none of "our" sworn friends wants to remember this.
      3. revnagan
        revnagan 27 March 2012 16: 06
        +2
        Quote: FIMUK
        In another way, it is impossible to explain the ropes of a bullet liner of German manufacture on the territory of the USSR in 1940.
        Why, the abovementioned material evidence was discovered not in 1940, but in 1943! And if they had been shot together, the Germans would have raised a fight back in 1941, immediately after the seizure of this territory, because they themselves would have known where to look! So, in 1941 there were NO TURNS IN KATYN, IT WAS NOT ANOTHER!
        1. FIMUK
          FIMUK 27 March 2012 17: 28
          -5
          and in 1940m no one was looking, they were looking at 41m and 44m
          The question is different if the Germans or Germans shot along with ours, why and for what profits does Russia take upon itself this crime? who is blocking? In my opinion, the answer is obvious it is easier to hang this sin on Stalin than to admit that Pts worked closely with the Nazis.
          1. Dobrokhod Sergey
            Dobrokhod Sergey 27 March 2012 19: 28
            0
            FIMA, let's not use verbiage, but specifically what the "cooperation" was.
            1. FIMUK
              FIMUK 28 March 2012 11: 16
              -3
              Cooperation was to partition Europe, so to speak, by agreement.
              and so that to consolidate "friendly ties" joint actions could be carried out - Katyn easily falls under such action.
              But to share, then to share it is all countries where they shared something.
              But cooperation with the regime that condemned the whole world, and even joint executions, is completely different, and we must deny it by all means, even to say that we shot the Poles.

              Threat Joint parade of the Wehrmacht and the Red Army in Brest (1939)? it's what to call
              1. Dobrokhod Sergey
                Dobrokhod Sergey 28 March 2012 15: 50
                +3
                FIMUK, heard nothing more delusional.
                The division of spheres of influence is normal practice for dominant states, which the USSR was then. An example of the division of spheres of influence: the Munich Treaty on the partition of Czechoslovakia, the Halifax-Rachinsky Pact, the Anglo-Japanese treaty on the division of spheres in Indochina.
                The League of Nations did not even condemn the actions of the USSR in Poland to return its territory, which was still stipulated by the Curzon plan. Poland at one time refused to fulfill this plan and to withdraw its troops beyond the "Curzon line".
                And the last: there was no parade in Brest in 1939. Forget this bullshit. It was an ordinary transfer of a military facility.
                1. FIMUK
                  FIMUK 28 March 2012 17: 28
                  -2
                  I could be wrong, but didn’t the Soviet Socialist Republic expel them from the League of Nations for aggression against Finland? that is, if kicked out as a league of nations, it can condemn a state that is not part of it.
                  at the expense of the parade xs but somehow it turned out to be pompous to transmit and receive the object.
                  1. Dobrokhod Sergey
                    Dobrokhod Sergey 28 March 2012 17: 57
                    0
                    Quote: FIMUK
                    I could be wrong, but didn’t the Soviet Socialist Republic expel them from the League of Nations for aggression against Finland? that is, if kicked out as a league of nations, it can condemn a state that is not part of it.
                    at the expense of the parade xs but somehow it turned out to be pompous to transmit and receive the object.

                    Yes. It would be worth looking at Wikipedia at least. This is about when and for what "kicked out" from LN.

                    About the "parade":
                    http://www.vilavi.ru/prot/100508/100508-3.shtml
                    http://wiki.redrat.ru/%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%84:%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%81%D1
                    %82%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4_%D0%B2_%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B5%D
                    1%81%D1%82%D0%B5
                    Use documents, not rumors
              2. ikrut
                ikrut 29 March 2012 00: 42
                0
                "Joint parade of the Wehrmacht and the Red Army in Brest (1939)? How to call it"
                This is called a biased worldview.
              3. Eugene
                Eugene 31 March 2012 15: 40
                0
                Comrade, ask who Churchill called the hyena of Europe. And why. And the joint parades ... It's ridiculous. Ukraine, over the years of Stalin's rule, which has increased its territory several times, is not ridiculous. Thanks to the Communists!
          2. ISO
            ISO 27 March 2012 20: 34
            0
            Ek you from the Molotov-Ribentropp pact is still sausage. As soon as this hitch on the path of the mutual destruction of the German and Russian people was formed, so the whole demo-trading world community went to Bile. Well, what if they suddenly jump off and to whom then will we sell weapons and how will we push them out of the oil-bearing zones?
          3. revnagan
            revnagan 27 March 2012 21: 21
            0
            Quote: FIMUK
            Explain the ropes of bullet casings of German production on the territory of the USSR in 1940
            Here you are talking about 1940. Or am I wrong?
            1. FIMUK
              FIMUK 28 March 2012 11: 04
              -2
              The year 1940 in this context implies that there is no other way for German ammunition to get to the places of executions in the 1940s.
              .....
              Wow, these kpppsesniki did not learn to read, but only copy-paste taken out of context smile
              1. revnagan
                revnagan 28 March 2012 15: 34
                +1
                Quote: FIMUK
                The year 1940 in this context implies that there is no other way for German ammunition to get to the places of executions in the 1940s.
                And where did you get the idea that the ammunition got there in 1940? What do you mean, mean? Who is meant? On the basis of what?
                ---------
                Oh, these reenactors, really do not know how to prove anything, but only act according to the principle, "he is d.u.a.k."
      4. loc.bejenari
        loc.bejenari 27 March 2012 19: 24
        0
        and if from Arisak, the samurai of the damned Polish girls slammed, ours and laughed, Arisak was full of Japanese spies, it would also have succumbed to Japan
        1. jamalena
          jamalena 27 March 2012 22: 26
          0
          what is this doodle? write on the human!
      5. ISO
        ISO 27 March 2012 20: 58
        +2
        After Iraq, Yugoslavia, Libya, I don’t want to democratize anything, well, just no way - I’m dark, I want to go to work in the morning and go to the store in the evening, so let anyone go to the kind, welcoming, hospitable amers.
      6. Zynaps
        Zynaps 28 March 2012 00: 46
        +3
        poCyent, if you consider yourself an expert in this field, I suggest that you sort through the points and poke your finger at the specific conclusions of the commission for the execution in Katyn, headed by Burdenko, which are fake, fraud, etc.

        if cho, I’m hinting: the conclusions of the Burdenko commission are still not officially disavowed.

        Quote: FIMUK
        The USSR and Germany until June 1941 were accomplices.


        Indeed? and that is why pilots, tankmen and saboteurs from the USSR officially fought against fascism in Spain in 1936. when already turn on the brain, expert?
        1. FIMUK
          FIMUK 28 March 2012 11: 09
          -2
          shanovny, Spain was in 1936, and here the 39-40th is the first.
          second, then they fought, but how? As well as the United States, we never fought, but the pilots Vasitsyn, Lisitsyn and other personnel assisted the friendly regimes in the air over Vietnam.
          So that shannovy expert change your tone.
          1. Zynaps
            Zynaps 28 March 2012 19: 38
            +1
            before demanding a tone change, change your brain, half-honored. The USSR was the only country that fought in Spain with specialists, and not just volunteers - loners.

            also requires an explanation of the clash between the Red Army and the Wehrmacht in 1939 near Lviv, during the withdrawal of German troops from the former Polish territory. and also clearly indicate why the USSR was the first to break off all relations with Germany in 1933, immediately after the Nazi victory.
            1. FIMUK
              FIMUK 29 March 2012 04: 10
              -2
              shanovny brain, you from what textbook to try to answer the answers to your questions?
              that's what I like-
              Every Soviet tractor is more valuable than ten foreign communists. ”
              Thus, a gap of 33g is a banal profonation and relations that have deteriorated so much that a reboot cannot be needed ... with further plans for reanimating strategic cooperation and opposing the national regime to the west.
              39 Well, so showed their serious intentions to each other, so to speak on someone else's cart, do not open your mouth ....
              .... tearing up a brainwashed opponent said
          2. Gromila78
            Gromila78 28 March 2012 20: 31
            +1
            It seems that Mr. Fima is studying history by the names of binding books, without looking inside. Little digression:
            - the demilitarization and joining of the Rhine region to Germany took place with the tacit consent of France and Britain
            - the conspiracy of the same states in the division of Czechoslovakia occurred without the participation of Czechoslovakia itself, with Hungary (Carpathian Ukraine) and Poland (the Teschinskaya oblast) participating in the partition, everyone also knows about Poland’s refusal to pass through its territory to protect Czechoslovakia
            - Soviet volunteers fought in Spain against the Nazis, France and Britain, together with Germany and Italy actually carried out the naval blockade of Spain
            - only after the final failure of the policy of "appeasement" of Germany, Britain and France gave guarantees to Poland, after which she decided that she did not threaten anything and became a very proud country
            - The USSR wanted to conclude an agreement with Britain and France, but the delegation they sent was not authorized to resolve important issues; as a result, the agreement was not signed
            - only after the failure of the negotiations between the USSR and Britain was an agreement concluded with Germany
            - after the German attack on Poland and the entry into the war of France and Britain on the Western Front, there was no fighting for several months (and during the Polish company, the Wehrmacht forces in the West were simply ridiculous)
            Conclusions: Great Britain and France did their best to direct Germany’s aggression to the east, Poland was not an innocent victim - she was an accomplice to Germany in the early stages, only after the refusal of cooperation of the “democratic countries” with the USSR we had to negotiate with Germany.
            Please, before writing anything, read at least a Wikipedia article about the Second World War.
    4. Krilion
      Krilion 27 March 2012 16: 59
      0
      Quote: raptor_fallout
      I'm not talking about Germany right now; everything is clear there. I'm talking about Romania,Bulgariathe same Poland, and a number of countries that position themselves as fighters against fascism, but whose soldiers for some reason were in the ranks of the Nazis and God knows what atrocities were committed on the territory of the USSR.


      and what kind of atrocities did the Bulgarians commit? .. the Bulgarian king only formally declared war on the USSR, the Bulgarians actually did not conduct any military actions against the Russians ...
      1. Zynaps
        Zynaps 28 March 2012 00: 49
        +5
        Bulgarians proved themselves during the war. they were not sent to fight in the USSR, but in Yugoslavia they carried out punitive expeditions against the Tito partisans with all diligence. I was in Yugoslavia (then still united) in 1988. Old Bosnian Serbs talked about the atrocities of the Bulgarians. Bulgarians in those places still do not like much.
    5. Zlyden.Zlo
      Zlyden.Zlo 28 March 2012 09: 37
      +1
      If I am not mistaken in that war against us, only the Greeks and Serbs did not participate.
  2. garnag
    garnag 27 March 2012 09: 11
    +28
    Tagged here and shit.
    1. Ty3uk
      Ty3uk 27 March 2012 10: 57
      +21
      Oh, how many more humpbacked affairs will we hiccup.
      I do not know anyone who has done more problems for our people than this nits.
    2. Vasilenko Vladimir
      Vasilenko Vladimir 27 March 2012 16: 01
      +4
      ask = where to say he didn’t
      1. Ziksura
        Ziksura 27 March 2012 19: 12
        0
        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
        ask = where to say he didn’t

        In London.
  3. Ratibor
    Ratibor 27 March 2012 09: 41
    +17
    A man with the surname Gorbachev could not do anything good but blind the "hunchback"
  4. Basilevs
    Basilevs 27 March 2012 10: 01
    +22
    Even if already 20000. And how many captured Red Army soldiers perished in Polish concentration camps in the 20s ??
    And how many lives of Russian soldiers were given for the freedom and independence of these noobs? Why does no one remind Poland of this ???
    1. neri73-r
      neri73-r 27 March 2012 10: 59
      +10
      I saw the figure of about 80000 of our soldiers and officers !!!
      1. PSih2097
        PSih2097 27 March 2012 12: 29
        +8
        from 25 to 000 Red Army men and commanders ...
        1. Indigo
          Indigo 27 March 2012 21: 45
          +4
          I draw attention to such questions:
          1. How many total Polish military were interned?
          2. Who made up the backbone of the Anders army?
          3. Is this figure comparable with those killed in Katyn?
          4. What are the criteria for filtering?
          5. The government in exile declared war on the USSR on the side of Finland - the status of internees immediately changed to the status of prisoners of war.
          And the last thing - the Poles dug up again, they dug after Smolensk and again look for traces of sapper blades and bullet holes ......
      2. revnagan
        revnagan 27 March 2012 12: 55
        +10
        And no matter how the Psheks scolded Stalin, it was he who revived Poland and returned Gdansk (Danzig) to these ungrateful ones.
    2. Dobrokhod Sergey
      Dobrokhod Sergey 27 March 2012 19: 34
      +3
      Guys, do not repeat Putin’s version that Stalin allegedly took revenge on the Poles for our fighters. Small The best memory of soldiers who died in concentration camps in Poland is the return of territories occupied by Poles.
  5. Georg Shep
    Georg Shep 27 March 2012 10: 05
    .
    The trouble is that today's Russian Federation is officially the legal successor of the Soviet-Communist system and its heritage. And this is repeatedly emphasized. If the current liberals in power condemned the Leninist-Stalinist crimes, which with their spearhead were primarily directed against Russia and the Russian People and declared their complete break with the communist past, then no one would have the right to make any claims against our country of this kind kind of.
    1. neri73-r
      neri73-r 27 March 2012 11: 05
      +28
      Naivety is not a sign of stupidity, but a purity of the soul! Claims to us will always be presented on various, mostly far-fetched, occasions! Claims were brought against the tsarist government, to the Soviet, to the post-Soviet - simply claims are made against the Russian civilization in any form that is not acceptable, the Western consumer civilization does not need !!!!!!!!!!!!!! There will always be a struggle between these civilizations, and if we want to live and be ourselves, we need to fight them.
    2. Dobrokhod Sergey
      Dobrokhod Sergey 27 March 2012 11: 39
      +26
      You live in another country, not in Russia. Your country has no history and there will be no future. My country has had, is and will have a History, because history is not a diary that can be added or rewritten. All good and bad is my Story - of my Country and I am not going to repent, for the sake of corrupt politicians.
      The Soviet period of history is one of the best in the history of Russia. And not some bastard is not entitled to make any claims against my country. Let them look for skeletons in their closets.
      1. Alone
        Alone 27 March 2012 17: 08
        +3
        Well said! good
      2. Major major
        Major major 27 March 2012 21: 20
        +2
        They themselves are skeletons in the closet. wink
    3. revnagan
      revnagan 27 March 2012 12: 57
      +3
      .
      The trouble is that today's Russian Federation is officially the legal successor of the Soviet-Communist system and its heritage. .

      "You are to blame for the fact that I want to eat!"
      1. Drednout
        Drednout 27 March 2012 16: 32
        +2
        Indeed, this is not a problem, but 20 years of enjoying the fruits of the so-called "empire of evil" and, despite no dancing to Western tune, the opportunity to remain enemy number 1 for a "civilized - democratic" society. It’s sickening to hear about such claims, but even more sickening is the fact that so far history has not judged fairly! Well, everything has its time.
    4. Zynaps
      Zynaps 28 March 2012 00: 54
      -3
      oh, ichto is it so eloquent here? a nedotomyka who clothed herself on an illiteracy medal for the Ice campaign from the traitor general, who arrested the sovereign, whom he swore to serve faithfully.
  6. schta
    schta 27 March 2012 10: 05
    +20
    In principle, one and every European country can shout about executed and tortured citizens whose bones rot in Russian soil.
    And Medvedev should have said the words of comrade Alexander Yaroslavich "Nevsky": "If you don't want to lie in Russian soil, stay at home!".
  7. DYMITRY
    DYMITRY 27 March 2012 10: 10
    +20
    Well, the court's decision is clear what it will be. Medved played with liberalism, with the recognition of Katyn. It's time to send all the "enlightened" gayropeans into a deep dupu with their claims, don't even pay attention to all these defenders of homosexuals and other Poles.
    The last paragraph ruined the whole article. The author may communicate with completely different people, but personally I have not met a single person who would "share the Polish grief" (c). It is enough to remember what they did with our prisoners in the 20s.
    1. Olegovich
      Olegovich 27 March 2012 10: 54
      +15
      Yes, I also think that Medved did not live up to expectations. He is not a statesman. He is a liberal. And the liberal is not smart: decisions are hasty, not thought out. It does not pull on the leader of Russia.
      1. FREGATENKAPITAN
        FREGATENKAPITAN 28 March 2012 10: 44
        +3
        .... not as party agitation , but for information ... what can we say about the Poles, etc. when we have at the very top, such a sorry canoe is happening ....
        Russian was always afraid, and therefore tried to defame, conquer, destroy .....
        Hence all the conceivable and unthinkable stories about Russia ...
        And Katyn, and the will of Peter and so on, so on
    2. Zynaps
      Zynaps 28 March 2012 01: 14
      +4
      will not be any. what Pu and Medved say is nothing more than political rhetoric. most importantly, the execution in Katyn is not officially (documented) recognized. specifically:

      1. no one disavowed the conclusions of the Burdenko commission, recognized as official since 1944
      2. Documents presented by the General Military Prosecutor’s Office did not pass a forensic examination and have the nature of falsification (paper, stamps are different, workflow rules are grossly violated, gross errors in paperwork, etc.)
      3. There are still more questions than answers in the Katyn execution case. for example, living people from the list of those executed were found in Poland. there are no personal files and sentences of convicts, etc.

      as a positive example, read the refusal of the Russian side to pay in case No. 29520/09 "Volk-Yezerskaya and others v. Russia". relatives of one of the Polish officers wanted to shake money out of the Russian Federation through the European Court of Human Rights. and were sent politely in a pedestrian erotic Memorandum signed not by anyone, but by the Representative of the Russian Federation at the ECHR - Deputy Minister of Justice of the Russian Federation G.O. Matyushkin.

      You can read and familiarize yourself with the scans of the Memorandum here: http://katyn.ru/index.php?go=News&in=view&id=20

      The most important information contained in this document is the official confirmation of the fact that the materials of criminal case No. 159 did not contain any evidence of the shooting of Polish prisoners of war in the spring of 1940. In this regard, Polish prisoners of war sent from citizens continue to be legally “missing” despite a fourteen and a half year investigation. In addition, it is noted that the "Katyn" criminal case in 1940 was instituted illegally, and the conclusion of the commission of experts of the Chief Military Prosecutor's Office of August 1990, 2 was drawn up with a large number of violations, in connection with which it was not recognized as admissible evidence in the case and information in it is unofficial. With scans of the memorandum of 1993/19.03.2010/XNUMX
      1. DYMITRY
        DYMITRY 28 March 2012 07: 59
        +1
        Quote: Zynaps
        will not be any.

        Despite the fact that I completely agree with you, and I am 100% sure that the NKVD has nothing to do with it, I am sure the court's decision will be accusatory. This is a political question, no one will even consider our evidence, it is enough for a representative of the Polish side to declare - "Wai! I swear by my mother these are Russians!" And they will believe him, no matter what the arguments of the Russian side.
        Or do you still believe in gay European "justice"?
        1. Zynaps
          Zynaps 28 March 2012 10: 55
          +2
          regardless of my belief or disbelief in European justice, judgments are made on the basis of certain documents, not the wishes of individuals. the documents handed over to the Polish side by the General Military Prosecutor's Office of the RF did not pass the examination. The Poles, apparently, also do not very much believe this whole concoction (in 95 they were even allowed to excavate in Katyn, and the Poles SUDDENLY found several shell casings from Soviet weapons, previously unnoticed by anyone). So far, the behavior of the Poles fits into the framework of "uncles, give me twenty kopecks, or else I'll throw mud!", and their position is all the more precarious because they can get hit in the head with a much more weighty club about the Red Army prisoners killed by the Pilsudchiks. the figure there is excellent - from 18 thousand (according to the Polish side) to 75 - 80 thousand (based on the number of prisoners of war who did not return to the USSR from Polish captivity).

          I’ll also add that the Russian Federation was smart enough to leave the priority of domestic legislation over all others. so in Europe they can even brush their teeth into dust - they don’t give a damn. and if the authorities had eggs, they would be engaged in active defense so as not to look in front of all the dull terpils for everything.
    3. FREGATENKAPITAN
      FREGATENKAPITAN 28 March 2012 10: 53
      0
      picture ................................................. ...............................

      ....................................... !!! For some reason, the image does not pass
      1. Major major
        Major major 28 March 2012 11: 13
        0
        And what is there in your picture?
  8. skullcap
    skullcap 27 March 2012 10: 15
    +33
    One of the Polish radio stations with reference to the lawyer of the plaintiffs, Mr. Kaminsky reports that the ECHR meeting will be held in an open form, and therefore the whole world will finally learn about the true truth regarding Katyn.
    -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
    ----------------------------
    It is clear that this will not be a search for the true truth, but another shameless provocation against Russia in line with the information war being waged against it.
    The author quite well and fully revealed the reasons why it can be confidently asserted that the killing of people in Katyn - both Polish and Soviet prisoners of war - is the work of Hitler's executioners. Perhaps even punitive battalions from Lithuania, Latvia or Estonia.
    Undoubtedly, in order to use German weapons, German cartridges and ropes in the 1940 year, it was necessary to know in advance that there would be a war, that the Germans would reach Moscow, but would not be able to win and roll back, that they would find these graves and try to use them in ideological struggle. All these “whats” say that this could not really be.
    The only thing I would like to add the author of is the following.
    My father’s village was occupied by the Nazis during the war.
    It should be noted that not everything in the pre-war Soviet Union was as hopeless as the democratic spiteful people write about it, but not as cloudless as the Soviet propaganda stated in response.
    When the German troops approached the village of my father, there were creative types who proposed to meet the German with bread and salt. However, the old people besieged them, saying that the foreigner is not going to make us better. And, indeed, after a couple of months, everyone, including creatives, joined in collecting weapons at the battlefields and organizing partisan movements.
    This I reported to the fact that in the territories occupied by the Germans there were a lot of people dissatisfied with the Soviet regime. And if the executions of the Poles were carried out by the Soviet authorities, the Germans would have learned about this on the first day of the occupation of this territory and, of course, would have used this fact to conduct an ideological war to the fullest.
    However, this did not happen. The Germans spoke about Katyn only when there was a threat of her release by the Soviet troops and, accordingly, a threat of accusing the Germans themselves of this murder.
    It was such a development of the situation that made the fascists begin to work ahead of the curve and try to blame the crime on the victorious Soviet Union.
    Well, the West (and its lackeys in the person of Poland and the Russian democrats) in its quest for world domination is capable of the lowest and dirtiest provocations.
    Given the current technology and craftsmen, if I can’t buy right away in the underpass, I will order and they will make good historical documents, a hundred of them did the Poles themselves to have leverage over neighbors, or descendants of the Atlanteans who made their way from the Pamir mountains, or, at worst, Martians during an extreme expedition.
    Very strange and incomprehensible in this situation remains the position of Medvedev. What is it? Conscious act or just not Senka hat?
    Sooner or later we will find out about it.
    1. Krilion
      Krilion 27 March 2012 11: 05
      +12
      Quote: kosopuz
      if the executions of the Poles were carried out by the Soviet authorities, the Germans would have known about this on the first day of the occupation of this territory and, of course, would have used this fact to conduct an ideological war to the fullest.


      brutally plus ...
    2. Dobrokhod Sergey
      Dobrokhod Sergey 27 March 2012 19: 51
      +3
      Quote: kosopuz
      And if the executions of the Poles were carried out by Soviet authorities, then the Germans would know about it in the first ....

      I am more than sure that this would be the first to be heard, and not in 1941, but earlier, by the Poles who organized the underground in the occupied territory by the Germans and in the newly liberated territories of Zap. Belarus and the West. Ukraine. And the fact that such clandestine organizations were an established fact.
  9. ward
    ward 27 March 2012 10: 21
    +16
    Well, let's turn on the logic ... in the 1940 year, the NKVD prepared a provocation, the success of which was achieved by the OCCUPATION of part of the USSR ... a person who conceived and implemented this in the light of the then ideas about the war would have lived very briefly ... And then everything was dismantled in Nuremberg and decided ... I think it’s preparing something like the Holocaust in Poland .. the country is a little poor, but you need to live on something ...

    The topic is painful for me .. everyone plus ... I didn’t want to say, the uncle didn’t die on time ... guarded these .... when the Germans attacked, they simply removed the guard and left ... asked for his testimony by a notary .. Refused, motive with the state we have butted ...
    1. Krilion
      Krilion 27 March 2012 11: 03
      -2
      Quote: ward
      in 1940, the NKVD prepared a provocation, the success of which was ensured by the Occupation of part of the USSR.


      please give a link how the NKVD used this "provocation" ... or was going to use it, but for some reason did not use it ...
      1. ward
        ward 27 March 2012 12: 45
        +2
        Krilion, I certainly understand that due to the fact that the Russian language is not your native language, you don’t understand .... I explain .. Since this event is highly hypothetical, it was not reflected in the information field ... In 40 years in the USSR, the doctrine was dominated by little blood, on foreign territory .. and we know examples ... people who thought they didn’t end so badly ... minus ..
  10. Heinrich ruppert
    Heinrich ruppert 27 March 2012 10: 29
    +9
    The author wrote an excellent article, put a plus. He approached the topic very correctly. Yes there was a war there were victims. Many people have died, but how many prdenzya can already be made. Who participated in this is not alive. And the question always arises. How many can not patokat children and grandchildren?
  11. itr
    itr 27 March 2012 10: 30
    +8
    Actually, these fighters were in the occupied territory and I doubt very much that they behaved decently and got what they deserved. The Poles are very greedy people from them all just bastard. With my own eyes I watched on vacation as the Pole told what their poor country is and how they all do not love and offend. And the German was still in conversation, so we both stood with our mouths open and listened. Only this dude completely forgot how Poland once terrorized all of Europe !!
    1. sas
      sas 27 March 2012 11: 19
      -3
      "Actually, these fighters were in the occupied territory and I very much doubt that they behaved decently and received what they deserved."
      Poles in the 39th occupied the Smolensk region ?! Wow, you’re the author of a sensation !!!
      Do you even understand what you wrote?
      1. itr
        itr 27 March 2012 12: 28
        +1
        Actually, western Belarus, which was allocated to them under the Riga Peace Treaty of 1921, and by the way, a piece of your country too, was captured about 600000 people, so the execution of 21000 people is very humane, I think.
        1. sas
          sas 27 March 2012 13: 24
          .
          The concept of "shooting 21000 people" and the term "humanely" somehow do not fit together. By the way, quite recently in the village of Kozelshchina, Poltava region, burials of people with characteristic holes in their turtles were found. It is known that until 1941 there was a concentration camp for "anti-Soviet elements" here. They drove people from western Ukraine, and from Poland, and from Romania and Moldova, and of course the Balts were also. According to preliminary estimates, 7-8 thousand people. The Foreign Ministries of Poland, Romania, Moldova confirm the disappearance of people without a trace. A similar story with the Putivl and Starobelsk camps. They began to investigate and were horrified - thousands of people were exterminated there! This story is only gaining momentum. The problem is that the documents that could shed light on these events are in Russia, which is not going to open them. So it's not a single Katyn. Unfortunately.
          1. Dobrokhod Sergey
            Dobrokhod Sergey 27 March 2012 14: 34
            +9
            Yeah. Now there are as many such "stories" every year, like harmelons in a yak garden in a fruitful year.
            The office of "Dr. Goebbels & Sons" writes.
            1. sas
              sas 27 March 2012 15: 38
              .
              No fucking Goebbels. There is evidence of this. Katyn also "was not." Then they admitted. In the 30s - 40s, the "comrades" have done so much that all these SS, Gestapo never dreamed of. In Babi Yar, most of the graves are from 1939. There were no Germans in Kiev then!
              1. revnagan
                revnagan 27 March 2012 16: 19
                +5
                Quote: Sas
                In Babi Yar, most of the burials - 1939
                Oh, how everything is running. And you dear, do you have at least a green idea of ​​how documents are declassified when you refer to such "evidence"? Do you think they gave an order to declassify, the stamp was removed, and read whoever wants it? Nooo, dear. Most of the documents labeled "of special importance", "top secret" or "secret", after removing the bar are destroyed. Therefore, I can say with confidence that the "evidence" that Gorby provided, and which you refer to, is 99% falsified. What? As they say, look for someone who benefits.
                1. sas
                  sas 27 March 2012 18: 03
                  -4
                  And this writing to what I wrote? Did I refer to any documents opened by Gorby? Can you bring a lot of documents to confirm your words? You may not be aware, but when the SBU needed it, it nevertheless quickly opened some of the documents regarding the events in western Ukraine and the repressions of the 30s. Historians had the opportunity to work with them. There would be a desire to open. When the need arose, Russia also opened documents on Katyn and introduced the Poles to them. So do not need lectures in secret. I understand that if they find a mass grave with clear signs of violent death (moreover, execution), then something was there, then you need to figure it out. If someone begins to hide his head in the sand, or worse, to destroy or hide evidence, certain thoughts arise.
                  1. revnagan
                    revnagan 27 March 2012 18: 45
                    +2
                    Quote: Sas
                    SBU pretty quickly opened part of the documents
                    The question is, what else was there to open? Imagine the situation: an order is received to open the document (s), and they have long been there ... But they require, at least, but calves ... So they spawned a whipped up sensation.
                  2. revnagan
                    revnagan 27 March 2012 21: 25
                    +2
                    Quote: Sas
                    And this writing to what I wrote? Did I refer to any documents opened by Gorby?
                    What are you referring to then
                    Quote: Sas
                    In Babi Yar, most of the burials were in 1939.
                    Can you bring not a lot, but at least one GENUINE document?
              2. loc.bejenari
                loc.bejenari 27 March 2012 19: 16
                0
                there is still a burial place in August 1941 - the Germans are only in Pirogovo and Hatnoy and not on Khreshchatyk
              3. Dobrokhod Sergey
                Dobrokhod Sergey 27 March 2012 20: 19
                +1
                Quote: Sas
                In Babi Yar, most of the burials were in 1939. The Germans were not in Kiev then!

                Well, it’s clear that there were no Germans, but there was Sas. Documents in the studio. Damn, what a habit the NKVD had - to carry out executions almost in the city.
                1. loc.bejenari
                  loc.bejenari 28 March 2012 00: 01
                  -3
                  Babi Yar in 1941 - Outback
                  and now in Kiev in the city limits at a distance of 3 kilometers from Khreshchatyk is full of overgrown spring
                  Shot by the way right on Khreshchatyk - in the modern October Palace - exactly 500 meters from the post office
                  buried mainly in Bykovna - there, and performed
          2. ward
            ward 27 March 2012 16: 31
            +5
            The uncle told ... They contained it very comfortably ... Even the newspapers were in Polish .... Later he began to understand a little Polish ... They said such things ... once a friend saved them dragged ... Hamili ... But the Germans didn’t you’ll get sick ... Three went away, killing the escort .... went to the post office for parcels !!!! We were caught ... a month in a punishment cell then on general regime and more ... Someone constantly came from the Red Cross ... They spoke Polish and English, and also Kokowski ... So everyone who needs everything knows everything. .. The order was not to open fire ...
            1. FIMUK
              FIMUK 28 March 2012 11: 37
              -2
              you got sick of it with your uncle, this is not proof, but fables from 1939 ...
              with all due respect to your uncle.
      2. revnagan
        revnagan 27 March 2012 16: 45
        +1
        Quote: Sas
        Poles in the 39th occupied the Smolensk region ?! Wow, you’re the author of a sensation !!!
        Actually, the conversation is about Katyn ...
  12. Krilion
    Krilion 27 March 2012 11: 01
    0
    By the way, at the state level, Russia admits that the shooting of Polish officers is the work of the NKVD military personnel acting on the orders of Stalin and Beria, which even President Medvedev once declared.

    only it’s not necessary to confuse all of Russia with the statements of some kind of underdeveloped moron ... so far no one has been able to clearly explain why the hands of the Poles were tied with a German rope and why they were shot from German weapons ...
  13. AlexxxNik
    AlexxxNik 27 March 2012 11: 18
    +8
    the position with the Poles is understandable, maybe the thread will burn out, but not burn out, we just make a noise, we can understand the same thing about our Khrushchev-Gorbachev-Yakovlev, Poland was a member of the Warsaw Pact and not the most calm, but on the contrary, they sweetened the pill, especially they were all internationalists (cosmopolitans), so dousing their people and their ancestors did not really touch them. But Medvedev’s position is not clear to me, for this it’s what kind of use this is, and on what basis, he imagines himself to be more informed than the Supreme Court of the USSR
  14. vostok
    vostok 27 March 2012 11: 20
    +11
    After the First World War, almost 30 thousand Russian prisoners of war were shot by the Poles, who will be responsible for this? And if you recall the Time of Troubles with the chechkhdor false Dmitry when thousands of Russians died, so let the Poles not blather.
    1. Pacifist
      Pacifist 27 March 2012 11: 26
      +13
      You still forgot to mention that there were concentration camps in Poland where Russian soldiers were kept under conditions that the Germans didn’t even dream of with their Dachhau and Auschwitz ... Do not want to answer for this? And probably it’s worth presenting an account to shut up.
  15. Brother Sarych
    Brother Sarych 27 March 2012 11: 46
    +9
    Instead of barking at the Poles so that they buried their tails in the nearest bushes, they began to conduct some extremely strange conversations, even starting with the marked traitor, and continue "worthily" with EBN and those who replaced him evil dwarfs ...
    A prepostany story, and it will continue. unfortunately ...
    1. Drednout
      Drednout 27 March 2012 16: 38
      +5
      It’s a sin to say, but the story with Tuška and the Polish elite becomes like justice. God forgive me!
  16. PSih2097
    PSih2097 27 March 2012 12: 37
    +4
    Along the way, the Poles check the strength of the policy of the Russian Federation, at the same time the liberals of the local bottling will be able to shout about the moral duty to the poor Poles ... and then you look, the lawsuits of all those who have ever offended will go rampant. The Baltic states - for the occupation, Ukraine - for the famine, Scandinavia - for sunken transports with raw materials for the Reich, etc.
  17. ward
    ward 27 March 2012 12: 52
    +4
    That's all the Russians behave badly on vacation ... Turkey ... the Grand Ring Hotel ... 15 of the Polish miners drank three bars completely ... at night was awakened by the clink of bottles and staff comments passing reinforcement from a nearby hotel ... In the morning they told everything ...
  18. Prorox
    Prorox 27 March 2012 12: 58
    +5
    I can only assume that the archive is not fully declassified, which in itself is strange if Russia “admitted guilt,” as some say. Why hide the remnants of the materials, like we are told the issue in the case has been resolved, there is a fact of the crime, the victim has been established, the accused has somehow been determined and the decision of their court will be swift with understandable consequences. Why is the leadership of our country so calm, knowing about the consequences and claims from the Poles, and the claims will not go to the grandmother.
    Was it possible to calculate such a reaction of "civilized" countries in the case and the decision of the European Court of Human Rights as a court of last instance, I think so. Knowing that to be in non-declassified archives (in contrast to this court) and the recognition of Judas marked (for the West, as an indisputable authority).
    I don’t want to engage in conspiracy theories, but according to the author’s stated about the presence of falsification of documents, someone needed concrete accusations of the USSR (these figures are not marked by Stalin, but throughout the Soviet period, as an integral and significant part of the historical Russian Empire) in the aftermath of Russia, we can also assume those who are trying to resist the rupture of our history and tearing pieces out of it, as you please.
    It is difficult to imagine such a blunder of the NKVD, despite the fact that German intelligence (SD, Abwehr, the Gestapo) was unable to organize and carry out more than one operation that deserved attention for all the time of its existence, but provocations similar to the Polish case were realized under frantic speeches Goebbels.
    We didn’t live normally with Poland and in the next few centuries we will not have illusions. History does not have to be loved, but it is obligatory to know and draw conclusions.
  19. Kievan
    Kievan 27 March 2012 13: 21
    .
    I don’t understand what are the Poles and Gorbachev accused of here? Is it they who shot those Poles? These are your beloved Stalin and Beria decided to shoot in a quiet how many thousands of people there. Just send them to cut the forest north or where else could they not? Bloodthirsty didn’t allow? It was necessary to shoot everyone in the back of the head and bury in the Smolensk region, and not beyond the Urals. Probably saved on transportation? But of course the Poles are to blame, because they remember the dead ....

    Threat And do not be offended by the Poles and Europeans. In the European territories that were not part of the Horde Uluses, a completely different mentality in people and
    attitude to human life. These stupid rotting Western barbarians rush about with human life and the memory of this life as a written sack. But we know that if the Master (Khan) decided to kill people, then it was necessary and there was nothing to remember about it. Pity the wretched Poles, they are not given to understand this.

    ZYY I have not heard about the desire of the authorities of the Russian Federation and ordinary people to equip the graves of the Red Army soldiers who died in Poland. Everyone can see ...
    1. dmb
      dmb 27 March 2012 14: 09
      +7
      Quote: Kievite
      In the European territories that were not part of the Horde Uluses, a completely different mentality in people and
      Who would doubt it, and all the stories about the atrocities of the Germans and Hungarians are commons inventions. Goebbels is resting.
      1. Kievan
        Kievan 27 March 2012 14: 43
        .
        ...
        Quote: dmb
        Who would doubt it, and all the stories about the atrocities of the Germans and Hungarians are commons inventions. Goebbels is resting.

        Sorry, did not specify. This of course applies to their citizens or, at worst, just Europeans. Yes, the Germans and Hungarians looked at the Slavs in the same way as the Slavs look at Chechens or Tajiks with all the ensuing consequences.

        And of course, looking at what kind of atrocities you are talking about. If about the Jews then this is one thing, but if about the Red Army prisoners who died of starvation, another. Nobody prevented Stalin from signing a convention on prisoners of war, and by the way, the lives of these soldiers are also on his conscience. How many of the 3 million prisoners survived. It was a pity for him to feed normally 100 thousand captive Germans?
        1. sas
          sas 27 March 2012 15: 42
          .
          "How many of the 3 million prisoners survived" - many of the survivors after the liberation regretted that they survived ... Comrade Stalin had no prisoners, Comrade Stalin had traitors.
          1. Dobrokhod Sergey
            Dobrokhod Sergey 28 March 2012 17: 05
            +1
            Quote: Sas
            Comrade Stalin had no prisoners; Comrade Stalin had traitors.

            Did you come up with it or read it again with the liberals?
        2. dmb
          dmb 27 March 2012 16: 22
          +9
          I am Russian. And I look at Chechens and Tajiks as well as at Russians and Ukrainians. If he is a bastard, Bandera, Vlasov or Dudaev. that place is in the same place. where Goebbels.
          1. Kievan
            Kievan 27 March 2012 20: 38
            -4
            Would your daughter be married to a Tajik or a Chechen? Would gladly babysit Uzbeks or blacks with their grandchildren?

            Threat I hate two things: racism and blacks. (joke)
        3. revnagan
          revnagan 27 March 2012 16: 28
          +5
          Quote: Kievite
          It was a pity for him to feed normally 100 thousand captive Germans?
          Look for the answer of Field Marshal Paulus to the American correspondent to the question about the nutrition of German prisoners in Russia. It began like this: “Calm down the German mothers.” I don’t remember exactly, I will not quote, but if I try approximately, you will grasp at the inaccuracy and on this basis will defame my argument. Look for yourself in the book of V.S. Pikul.
          1. FIMUK
            FIMUK 28 March 2012 11: 43
            -2
            It is interesting to read General Vlasov’s interview with Russian mothers *)) the argument is shabby
        4. Drednout
          Drednout 27 March 2012 16: 57
          +3
          But the Nazis were sorry to feed 10 million Jews, oh yes !!! Moses did not sign the Geneva Convention!
          Those. as soon as Stalin signed the convention, the sovtsy would immediately turn into sweet darlings.
        5. Vadim555
          Vadim555 27 March 2012 19: 38
          -1
          Quote: Kievite
          How many of the 3 million prisoners survived. It was a pity for him to feed normally 100 thousand captive Germans?

          ...............................
          http://army.armor.kiev.ua/hist/paeknem-plen.shtml
          http://blog.i.ua/user/688739/654879/
          1. Kievan
            Kievan 27 March 2012 20: 47
            0
            Unfortunately, we can only rely on official statistics. And for the first time I hear about the plague of the Germans in the allied captivity. Just read too well and was free there. And after the capitulation, the Germans in "captivity" came only to check in, eat and sleep.
            1. Dobrokhod Sergey
              Dobrokhod Sergey 28 March 2012 17: 10
              0
              Quote: Kievite
              And after the surrender, the Germans in "captivity" came only to check in, eat and sleep.

              Right. The allies were preparing them for the implementation of Operation Unthinkable, scheduled for July 1.
              That’s the truth: no matter how much you feed the wolf, he looks into the forest.
        6. de_monSher
          de_monSher 28 March 2012 02: 28
          +5
          .. to eat. Of course, it is a sin to think so, but if you say so, when this ... art of Gorbachev dies, I’ll come to his grave, and I’ll take the most rotten moonshine, and breathe a sigh of relief - the air will become cleaner. I fantasized so many things that it takes my breath away. And, do not try here to think that it is Russian nationalism or Great Russian chauvinism that speaks in me. I am Uzbek. And I know for sure that only thanks to this used condom, I lost two years in the mountains of Tajikistan, in their civil war. And, for me, this is exactly what is, not indirect, but direct evidence that Gorby, mr-ah-zh - Katyn, invented it. How he "invented" all the wars that swept through the former USSR after his betrayal ... look ...
        7. Dobrokhod Sergey
          Dobrokhod Sergey 28 March 2012 19: 51
          0
          To comply with the Convention, it was enough that it was signed by one of the parties to the military conflict. This is stated in the Convention.
          Teach materiel.
    2. Dobrokhod Sergey
      Dobrokhod Sergey 27 March 2012 15: 07
      +6
      You still forgot to write that the bloodthirsty Stalin ordered every day for dinner to fry one Pole.
      About philanthropic Europeans, you also probably do not know very much. You may recall the Inquisition and how many lives the true faith cost, or the massacre of the Huguenots, the philanthropic Europeans loved the lives of their fellow citizens so much that they organized Crusades in order to take other peoples' lives.
      Or maybe he forgot how the Poles built a "comfortable resort" "Beryoza-Kartuzsky" "boarding house" for their Kresovians.
      1. sas
        sas 27 March 2012 15: 47
        -9
        "Maybe you remember the Inquisition and how many lives cost the true faith, or the massacre of the Huguenots, the humane Europeans loved the life of their fellow citizens so much that they organized the Crusades in order to take the lives of other peoples." - you forgot about the time frame. Between the Middle Ages and the 20th century a certain period of time has passed, sufficient to develop and reach a different level of development. Apparently not everyone used this time productively ...
        1. revnagan
          revnagan 27 March 2012 16: 35
          +8
          Quote: Sas
          Between the Middle Ages and the 20th century. a certain period of time has passed, sufficient to develop and reach a different level of development.
          Yeah, Auschwitz, Majdanek, Dachau are not the 20th century, and they were not arranged by civilized Europeans. Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki ... Oh, and the last two seem to be out of topic, there were no "white" people there. We drove on. ..Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya. Wow, I have already climbed into the 21st century! Well, we will not remember Vietnam, there were not white people there either ...
          1. ISO
            ISO 27 March 2012 21: 25
            +2
            Yes, you cling to a lobotomized one. Fuck knows what the ancestors actually did. But now, to see the level of development among the general people in Aabsche has gone wild: for example: A song about how an American soldier should bomb Baghdad in the Stone Age, but there weren’t enough songs for Yugoslavia with Libya, so they quickly scattered from far away to utter poverty. But it is very humane - the losses among the personnel of the democratizers are minimal. I hope that the NATO team will soon begin a turn in the other direction, and it seems that according to the plans of the Pentagon after Iran, we are in line for democratization and humanization.
          2. Dobrokhod Sergey
            Dobrokhod Sergey 28 March 2012 17: 16
            0
            Quote: revnagan
            ..... Hiroshima, Nagasaki ... Oh, but the last two seem out of the question, there were no "white" people

            There were. There was a prisoner of war camp for American soldiers. Therefore, along with Japanese citizens there, American soldiers-prisoners of war were burnt there.
        2. Drednout
          Drednout 27 March 2012 17: 03
          +4
          Okay, let's see another gap - WMDs on Ypres were the Mongoloids allowed? In Yugoslavia, more recently, general philanthropy has triumphed. Or there was no bombing of Orthodox churches in the most civilized (after America of course) part of the world.
        3. ward
          ward 27 March 2012 22: 08
          +3
          Alas, in Europe women are so scary why, but because, as witches, they burned all the beauties in their time .... We didn’t burn them .... we were so wild ...
    3. Drednout
      Drednout 27 March 2012 16: 51
      +7
      Quote: Kievite
      In the European territories that were not part of the Horde Uluses, a completely different mentality in people and
      attitude to human life

      Undoubtedly! In these territories, even before the 19th century, inclusive, slop was poured on people's heads from windows and it was in the order of things. In one night, they slaughtered as many Huguenots as Ivan the Terrible, along with the entire oprichnina, did not destroy. You can go on about the "correct western civilization" indefinitely.
      So let them stick their garbage tongues in ... you know where.
      Our "beloved" Stalin and Beria made the whole ball shit ... and now only the lazy will not throw mud at them. But the fact of the matter is that they are Ours and only We can judge them, if We want it. And you will take care of your Mazepa, who sold Ukraine to three different rulers, but lost, betting on the Swede. By the way, now you have almost a piece of their flag.
      1. ward
        ward 27 March 2012 22: 10
        +5
        Don’t touch Vanya ... In the whole history, along with the capture of Kazan, this murderer killed 2000 people, in Paris they killed 10 more times ... and these people forbid us to pick their nose ...
    4. skullcap
      skullcap 27 March 2012 17: 43
      +8
      Kiev Today, 13: 21
      And do not be offended by the Poles and Europeans. In the European territories that were not part of the Horde Uluses, a completely different mentality among people and attitude to human life.
      -------------------------------------------------- ----
      Here you plunged before the Mongol invasion and go on stream of generally accepted Western historiography, which continuously repeats the mantra of shame and meaninglessness of vassal dependence on the Mongol empire and at the same time positively evaluates vassal dependence on the Vatican empires such as Charles the Great.

      Meanwhile, if we consider this issue impartially, we will see:

      - the creation of Western empires was accompanied not only by the extermination of part of the population, its robbery and driven away from the land, occupation of cities, but also by forced catholicization, translation into another - Latin script (the Czechs, who had already received the Cyrillic alphabet from Cyril and Methodius were forced to change it to Latin), forced a change in spiritual life and culture, which, in line with the Western historical concept, introduced subjugated peoples into “true” civilization. Many of them, unable to withstand such an introduction, disappeared from the face of Europe, which became the "grave of backgammon" (Prussians, Venets, rugs and many others).

      - the political and economic oppression of the Mongols over Russia had its own characteristics that distinguished it from the invading traditions of the West, purposely erasing the culture of the conquered peoples and turning the surviving population into mankurts.

      In Russia there was no Mongol slavery, which Western grant-eaters of all times and peoples tirelessly write about. In Russia there was a “tribute”, which of all types of dependence brought a minimum of precisely slave relations, as was the case in the West, starting with the cradles of Western democracy - ancient Greece and Rome, which in combination were models of a classic slave-owning society, to which the eastern satraps were mired by democrats - like walking to the moon.

      Mongol nomads with huge herds could not live either in cities or in Russian forests, they returned to the steppes, and ultimately they left the collection of tribute to the local authorities. Therefore, in Russia, the national order of princely possession was preserved.

      Alexander Nevsky understood this difference; therefore, he was canonized by grateful descendants.
      The brilliant Daniil of Galitsky did not comprehend this, went on a rapprochement with the West and, as a result, only half a century after his death, his entire Fatherland was completely captured, catholicized, all traces of the Russian and Orthodox erased. And the direct descendants of Russian people from Chervona Rus also turned into Galician mankurts, most of all in life who hate everything Russian, including their ancestors, their language, culture and faith.

      So, if we summarize all of the above, it turns out that the big slaves are the units of Western civilization. This is evidenced by the attitude of members of these different civilizations to human life, which you also touched on. You can read truly objective material about this at the link

      http://monarhist.net/newspaper/article/71/130

      The whole nuance is that the slaves of the shameful Western civilization by their sophisticated masters held a lobotomy, as a result of which these slaves sincerely consider themselves the most free people. But as Goethe wrote on this occasion:
      "No slavery is more hopeless in the world,
      than the slavery of those slaves
      who thinks himself
      free from the shackles. "

      Here is such a dope.

      P.S. Excuse me, but honestly: are you really a Kievite, not a Westerner?
      1. Igarr
        Igarr 27 March 2012 20: 49
        +7
        But he, the Kievite, does not understand ..
        blows into his tin pipe .. and all things.
        Stalin was greedy to transport the Poles to the Urals? ... I've never met a greater neurasthenia.
        Stalin peoples in the mountains (!) - for a day (I explain - 24 hours) collected and exported ....... for 2-3- thousand km.
        And here - a proud gentry .. the number of 20 thousand - 30 thousand (would agree at least .. how much) - the toad is strangling, taken out of the Urals and peeped there?
        Nonsense ... nonsense ..

        And why do our ... leaders ... recognize all kinds of shoes? There’s a mystery for me ... unless ...
      2. Kievan
        Kievan 27 March 2012 22: 38
        -4
        I'll start from the end:
        Quote: kosopuz
        The whole nuance is that the slaves of the shameful Western civilization by their sophisticated masters held a lobotomy, as a result of which these slaves sincerely consider themselves the most free people. But as Goethe wrote on this occasion:
        "No slavery is more hopeless in the world,
        than the slavery of those slaves
        who thinks himself
        free from the shackles. "

        I absolutely agree with Goethe and you. But only in a philosophical-abstract sense. The practical difference between Western slavery and our local,
        expressed in the treatment of Breivik in Sweden and the unfortunate victim of rape with a bottle in the police department in Tatarstan. It is also clearly visible in relation to veterans and graves of soldiers with them and with us. Millions of immigrants who left for the West chose this very illusion of freedom, since here we have no illusions even among children.

        Otherwise, I do not agree with you, but there is no time to write. Primary:
        Quote: kosopuz
        In Russia there was no Mongol slavery, which Western grant-eaters of all times and peoples tirelessly write about. In Russia there was a “tribute”, which of all types of dependence brought a minimum of precisely slave relations, as was the case in the West, starting with the cradle of Western democracy - ancient Greece and Rome,

        Between Greece and Rome and Russia 1000 years. Invalid comparison.
        If the Mongols did not pay tribute, they plundered the cities and led the Slavs into real slavery, and all through whose lands they went to the non-payer .... And in what way did the Moscow princes get the label of the Grand Duke read better from Russian historians, otherwise if I write I think that Russophobe.
        Quote: kosopuz
        Alexander Nevsky understood this difference; therefore, he was canonized by grateful descendants.
        The brilliant Daniil of Galitsky did not comprehend this, went on a rapprochement with the West and, as a result, only half a century after his death, his entire Fatherland was completely captured, catholicized, all traces of the Russian and Orthodox erased.

        Alesksander Nevsky, the named son of the Mongol khan and his descendants, led Russia along the Moscow-Asian route, defeating and destroying Novgorod Novgorod.
        Regarding Catholicization: Western Ukraine is mostly Orthodox and only administratively subordinate to the Pope. You will not argue that from this they will go to hell?

        For anyone who reads Russian history beyond the school curriculum of Soviet / Russian textbooks, the difference in attitude towards people and life here and in Europe is obvious. And I do not claim that here is Mordor, and there are Elves. Everywhere there were wars, revolutions, famines, massacres, but the difference is visible and it is very significant. There, man is not a slave, not God or a king.

        And whatever you consider me a Westerner, read Kostomarov's "Russian history" better - he certainly was not a Westerner and his publication was passed by the tsarist censorship. So he is definitely not an agent of the State Department.

        Today I came across a text not a lot off topic but next: I didn’t fit into the message and threw comments for you below.
        1. Vadim555
          Vadim555 27 March 2012 23: 51
          +1
          Quote: Kievite
          Between Greece and Rome and Russia 1000 years. Invalid comparison.

          Everything may not be what it looks from the outside.

          In what century did Jesus Christ live?
          http://x-file.pp.ua/publ/neizvedannoe/v_kakom_veke_zhil_iisus_khristos/7-1-0-785
          1. de_monSher
            de_monSher 28 March 2012 05: 17
            0
            Oh ... *)))))))) Fomenko ... wow, his "new chronology", someone still takes it seriously ... = laughing = ... hmm ...
    5. ward
      ward 27 March 2012 22: 04
      +2
      Yes, the army of Krayov taught you not much to love ... In vain, in vain they shot everyone ... you should have left a little for you ... They would have shown you how to remove skin from a living person and that would have lived for another four hours ... the fact of violence in Kolomyia over the Ukrainian otchetili ... exposition in 1978 in the museum of local history ...
      1. Igarr
        Igarr 28 March 2012 00: 10
        +3
        Kievite, well, you are our dear ... dearest comrade!
        when will you learn to answer - to specific questions, problems ..

        and not to make their own - in response ..
        Alexander Nevsky is the son of a Mongol ... GOOD ... let him four times be the son of a shotgun, a syphilitic Yakut .... what does this bring to our conversation?

        I do not agree with us - well, then don’t speak at all.
        Than some kind of nonsense to carry .. "For anyone who has read Russian history outside the school curriculum of Soviet / Russian textbooks, the difference in attitude to man and life here and in Europe is obvious. And I do not claim that here is Mordor, and there are Elves. there were wars, revolutions, famine, massacres, but the difference is visible and it is very significant. There, a person is not a slave, not God's and not royal "
        Mordor? ... Elves? ...
        what is it about???
        1. Kievan
          Kievan 28 March 2012 01: 17
          -5
          Quote: Igarr
          What does this bring to our conversation?

          Judging by your post, you didn’t learn to read and you didn’t have any luck with culture. You have beguiled something, we have no conversation.
  20. Vadim555
    Vadim555 27 March 2012 13: 56
    +3
    How did they get the cat-headed with Katyn.
    Cleaned out YouTube From practically all videos about Katyn, {censorship-censorship-censorship} is being prepared for "presets".

    Major forgery of secret documents in state archives
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRJzkIAKarQ&feature=player_embedded#
    Katyn. Strange documents
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMPOFVaksUg&feature=related

    Yu.I. Mukhin. Katyn detective
    http://lib.ru/MUHIN_YU/katyn.txt

    "Berenhalle" - the answer to Katyn
    http://info.rodnik-k.info/readarticle.php?article_id=988


    Katyn Katyn Mukhin Katyn Detective Part_1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A3i8OX8znc
    (if you search, you can download the whole movie)
  21. taseka
    taseka 27 March 2012 14: 01
    +6
    In 20, almost 165 thousand Red Army soldiers from the Tukhachevsky Army were captured, returned from captivity around 55tys. people, about 25 thousand entered voluntarily into various military formations - the rest were destroyed there by hunger and disease, this is approximately - 85 thousand people
    Ineta data:As a result of the Polish-Soviet war of the 1919 — 1920's, tens of thousands of soldiers of the Red Army were captured. The data on both the total number of captured Red Army soldiers and those who died in the camps are contradictory. Polish researchers estimate the total number of captured Red Army soldiers in 80 000 — 110 000 people, of which the deaths of 16 thousand people [1] are considered documented. Soviet and Russian sources provide estimates in 157 — 165 of thousands of Soviet prisoners of war and up to 80 of thousands of those killed from [2] [3]. The largest camps where the Red Army was held were a large camp in Strzalkow, Schipyurno (Polish. Szczypiorno), four camps in the Brest Fortress, a camp in Tucholi.

    1. sas
      sas 27 March 2012 15: 51
      -8
      And the valiant Red Army soldiers were captured as a result of the Polish aggression against the young Soviet state, defending their homeland .... under the walls of Warsaw ....
      1. revnagan
        revnagan 27 March 2012 16: 40
        +7
        Quote: Sas
        And the valiant Red Army soldiers were captured as a result of the Polish aggression against the young Soviet state, defending their homeland .... under the walls of Warsaw ....
        Well, I’m saying that everything was started. I had to study history at school, and not run to smoke in the toilet. Then we drove the Poles from Kiev, along with the Petliurites, and drove them to Warsaw, so there is some truth in your words.
        1. sas
          sas 27 March 2012 17: 44
          -6
          I do not smoke and I do not advise you. Maybe you didn't know, but near Warsaw the Bolsheviks didn’t stop themselves, they were stopped. If not stopped, they would have gone further. Or do you think they drove the "damned Poles and traitors to the Petliurites" to Warsaw and returned home? Do not make me laugh.
          1. Svist
            Svist 27 March 2012 18: 14
            +4
            Quote: Sas
            Maybe you didn’t know, but near Warsaw the Nichrome Bolsheviks didn’t stop themselves, they were stopped. If they had not stopped, they would have gone further.

            So who, after all, was the aggressor?
          2. revnagan
            revnagan 27 March 2012 18: 57
            +2
            Quote: Sas
            near Warsaw, the Nichrome Bolsheviks did not stop themselves, they were stopped
            And I did not say that they themselves stopped. Yes, the Poles stopped. The offensive was exhausted, and the resources to support it were no longer. As a result, many of our soldiers were captured by the Poles, who kept them in death camps and were sadistic Destroyed.No after all, it is known, as it comes around, and otliknetsya.A in Katyn, the Poles were simply shot, and it has not yet been proven that this was done by the "Soviets." And about how Stalin "took revenge" on the Poles, see. my post is above.
            1. ISO
              ISO 27 March 2012 21: 36
              +2
              They were not stopped by the Poles, but by the Polish Bundists (Jews), according to Trotsky’s plan, they had to support the promotion of the Tukhly, and instead they stupidly waggled carts with ghost and cartridges. And there was a burdock commander with a bare ass, although the cowardly gentry and without cartridges with one sword could not be dispersed.
  22. Nechai
    Nechai 27 March 2012 15: 03
    +11
    Quote: re321
    WHO SPECIALLY did this?

    Quote: revnagan
    The Gestapo

    The Poles were shot at in abandoned camps near Smolensk by the servicemen of the communications regiment, "serving" the headquarters of Gr. Ariy "Center". Under the command of one of the battalions of this regiment. For which he was immediately promoted in rank and position. The Poles employed in the construction of roads, by today's standards, were in the position of "chemists". Attuned to the USSR, to put it mildly, unfriendly. So they were left to the dear and adored Germans. The Gestapo and the bent-footed one immediately began to play out this story for their own purposes.
    Quote: Georg Shep
    no one would have the right to make any claims of this kind against our country.

    Yes Yes! All who should have been forgiven the USSR, got a depressing imbalance. In a compartment with loans, humpback and ebony hung a noose. Fortunately managed to slip out of it. Correctly in the comments there was an assumption - to oblige to pay for the alleged Polish Holocaust.
    Quote: DYMITRY
    The bear played in liberalism, with the recognition of Katyn.

    The "proofs" he disseminated — how much it is necessary to take the people of Russia for fuckers !!! A whipped-up fake, for him - a lawyer, only a mother, crush, etc., are incontestable evidence. / For anyone familiar with document management in the USSR, this is striking. Why didn't you show the reverse side of the "document" pages, especially the last one? So the "bubble" would immediately burst. / The testimony of the Gestapo agents is true. And the Poles who collaborated with the authorities are a lie ... Mr. Acting President, this begs the question, which country's interests are you defending? That's just about the truth blah, blah do not. Mr. Churchill said: "History is politics thrown back into the past." So there are groans about our bloodthirstiness. Well, and only the courts will make judgments "fair". Repeatedly had the "luck" to be convinced. As soon as the size of the arrogant appetite is settled (this is not a medical diagnosis in KVD, this is a property of character), they will endure it.
  23. wk
    wk 27 March 2012 15: 41
    +7
    what have we reached !!!!!, HOW? can be the success of GEELSOVSKAYA !!! prapogands to consider as historical evidence ... I can hardly restrain myself from swear words ... and why do they forget the tragedy of the Red Army in Polish captivity, which is inappropriate to prove fake and ... why the Warsaw campaign, which was organized against the Polish occupation of Soviet Ukraine and was aimed at Moscow, now represent the war of conquest "world revolution" .... but read the history and historians, and not bawlers detractors !!!
    1. sas
      sas 27 March 2012 16: 29
      .
      That's it: read historians, not party workers ...
      1. loc.bejenari
        loc.bejenari 27 March 2012 18: 40
        .
        why should they read them? I read their nonsense and laugh
  24. Samuraj
    Samuraj 27 March 2012 15: 48
    0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW_Z7CBTP3E
  25. Samuraj
    Samuraj 27 March 2012 15: 49
    +2
    Just watch the video at the link below!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW_Z7CBTP3E
  26. Bat1stuta
    Bat1stuta 27 March 2012 15: 50
    +4
    in the course of the Poles, the ideology of existence is this: Russophobia and how to spoil Russia. pah, it would be better if they were simply destroyed during the war. so many of ours were killed liberating Poland, and these devils spit on us ... am
  27. PSih2097
    PSih2097 27 March 2012 15: 52
    0
    And to be honest, the mention of Katyn and Poles is already beginning to get out, I already wrote my point of view on this issue that year. It doesn’t matter who shot, the main thing is that they were shot for the case ... but it was in Poland in the 20s ...
  28. Strabo
    Strabo 27 March 2012 15: 56
    +6
    You can argue hoarse on this and other similar issues, look for inconsistencies and other things. Toothlessness of Russia on this issue is surprising. Why Americans do not show murders and executions in other regions. Why? Why Russia continues to be afraid of everyone and everything. Close the question, file counterclaims and the destruction of 120 Red Army soldiers in the same Poland. The whole world knows about Katyn and nothing about the mass death in the Russian camps. Believe the numbers are incompatible. What is stupidity or political correctness ?. The monument to the Poles stands at the place of execution, and at the place of death of Russians in Poland, even flowers are forbidden. Accustomed to lie to their people and be afraid to firmly raise the issue with others.
    1. Krilion
      Krilion 27 March 2012 17: 07
      +1
      Quote: Strabo
      Why Russia continues to be afraid of everyone and everything. Close the question, file counterclaims and the destruction of 120 Red Army soldiers in the same Poland. The whole world knows about Katyn and nothing about the mass death in the Russian camps.


      the deo is that Russia has no policy of systematically defending its image and interests in such "fights in the backyard" ... there are no corresponding plans, there are no people who would be engaged in this .. the entire PR machine is focused entirely only for internal Russian squabbles and rotting of their own people ..
  29. ward
    ward 27 March 2012 16: 34
    +2
    God sees everything ... And they will answer for everything ... It's just horror what a stupid nation ... Already this way and that they hinted ... they don’t understand ...
  30. JackTheRipper
    JackTheRipper 27 March 2012 16: 43
    +14
    Carcass flew in the clouds
    It carried an infection in itself.
    Dancing flew on the coffins
    One hundred villains at once.

    One hundred people have one schiza:
    From the word "Russian" vomiting.
    Russia is scolded by their mouths
    In a Russian plane.

    Our prime minister plaintively requested:
    “I'm sorry, we ask you very much”
    Those who spared no energy
    The country reviles him.

    What year they eat
    Only carrion
    They rush to a new feast
    At a new feast in Katyn.

    Smerdela on fangs
    Called dung flies.
    Carcass flew in the clouds
    And in her, another hundred carcasses.

    They flew to open again
    Everything that has already decayed long ago
    So that again, like a shouted scream,
    Putting a snout into the graves ...

    Cowardly and powerless power
    She will be empty forever.
    But our heaven and earth
    Shame will not be allowed.

    The plane crashed to the ground
    Cook the hell with pitchforks!
    The one who burst the graves–
    He lay down in the mass grave.

    What does this flight teach us?
    The answer is very simple:
    If the enemy comes to us with Katyn,
    Himself from Katyn will die.

    We have a simple answer to everything,
    Indeed, in Truth our strength.
    It doesn't matter if there is a god or not
    After all, her name is Russia.

    (c) not known
    1. ward
      ward 28 March 2012 21: 31
      0
      Yes, you are my friend’s poet ... Plus ..
  31. Alexmos
    Alexmos 27 March 2012 16: 54
    +2
    Here's how to immediately about a straw in someone else's eye and a straw in his memory is recalled. Let me remind you that Poland is currently accused of leaving its territories under CIA prisons, in which citizens of other countries were illegally detained and brutally tortured. Once again I repeat this is not the 40s of the last century, but today's reality

    Ex-head of Polish intelligence Zbigniew Siemitkowski has been charged with organizing a secret center in Poland where the CIA held prisoners suspected of terrorism.

    “I refused to testify at the prosecutor’s office and will do so at every stage of the case, including in court,” said Gazeta Wyborcza and the television program Panorama Sementkovsky, who is now a teacher at the university. He explains his silence with the interests of state security.

    The hype around the topic of “Polish prisons” by the CIA did not rise for the first time. In May last year, Jerzy Mierzewski from the Warsaw Appeals Office was suspended from the case. This happened at the moment when he managed to collect materials that give reason to put before the State Tribunal of politicians the Union of Democratic Left Forces (SLD), which gave their consent to too far cooperation with the CIA.
  32. skullcap
    skullcap 27 March 2012 18: 04
    +4
    Since the conversation flowed smoothly into the discussion of the centuries-old Polish Russophobia, I think it worthwhile to recall the period under discussion from an unbiased point of view.

    The Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact, at least on the part of the USSR, was inevitable and fair in those historical conditions.
    I want to recall that Poland, together with fascist Germany, participated in the criminal division of democratic Czechoslovakia. Polish leaders made plans to participate in the division of the Soviet Union as an ally of the criminal fascist regime. And it was not their merit that Hitler decided that it would be more convenient for him to have Poland as an occupied governor-general, and not as a rotten ally.

    And Stalin was simply forced to agree to the aforementioned pact, since he saw perfectly where the democrats were bending in collusion with the Nazis, and his duty was to defend the interests of his country, and at the same time he defended the interests of the whole world. Especially the Poles.

    For some reason, I just can’t understand the inadequate attitude of the Poles to this treaty and personally to Comrade Stalin. After all, what would happen if Stalin began to play nobility, and did not follow the Polish example, when Poland shared Czechoslovakia with Hitler? And would not go to meet the aspirations of the Baltic peoples for joining the USSR?

    Then the border between the USSR and Germany would go 600 kilometers closer to Moscow, and to Leningrad from now sovereign Estonia there would be only 150 kilometers — a maximum of two days for German tanks. Then Leningrad would be captured in the early days of the war. The troops of the North group, freed, would take part in the assault on Moscow, which would not be guaranteed to resist the united enemy groups.

    It is difficult to say how the fate of the Russian people resettled beyond the Arkhangelsk-Astrakhan line would have developed under such a development of events, but the fate of the Polish people would have been decided by the Nazis according to their plan completely and completely.
    In this case, no one would have had problems with Poland now. This is Russia - a “prison of peoples” (although in reality it is a hostel with all its joys and inconveniences), and Europe is a cemetery of peoples. Until now, I can’t find a complete list of carved peoples living in Europe (similar to Prussians, Wends, etc.). It would be: there is a people - there are problems, there is no people - there are no problems.

    In fairness: the Poles to Stalin for the fact that he saved their people, monuments should be erected throughout the country (I’m silent about the return to them of the lost Polish lands, which the Poles themselves have waved their hand for a long time). Such is the ungrateful people.
  33. malera
    malera 27 March 2012 18: 30
    -2
    Quote: Ty3uk
    Oh, how many more humpbacked affairs will we hiccup. I don’t know anyone who has done more problems for our people than this nits.

    Guess the letter PU.
    Gorbachev began. Putin finished. Kneeling. And the pro-Kremlin thought obediently approved.
    Polish officers near Katyn were shot by direct order of Stalin and other Soviet leaders - this is stated in the State Duma statement
    The Poles did not particularly bow when they tortured about 100 thousand captured Soviet soldiers in 1920-21









    quote = Ty3uk] Oh, how many more humpbacked affairs will we hiccup. I don’t know anyone who has done more problems for our people than this nits.

    And you say Gorbachev.
  34. loc.bejenari
    loc.bejenari 27 March 2012 19: 06
    -7
    Well, how could such nonsense be written, and in the name of what?
    well, let’s say, as they write in this nonsense, in Katyn the Germans for some reason shot the Polish military personnel who had been captured by the Soviet troops before, and then by a miraculous event, the whole camp found themselves at the NFZ
    and then there was a need for them to shoot a bullet in the back of their head - although half of them would most likely be called up to the Wehrmacht as residents of territories attached to the Reich or to the SS as Volksdeuchi (and there were enough of them in Poland)
    where is the logic?
    Well, with Katyn it’s clear here, Idiot to prove that white is white is useless
    But what about the executed Polish officers and guards in the Kharkiv region and in the Starobelsky district - which was not occupied
    and the burial of the Poles in Bykovna near Kiev, interspersed with local repressed -here is that -type Germans specially tucked up with insidious plans
    Yes, when they needed to do something, they were perfectly able to exhume and burn under 100 shot Babrei Yar’s Jews.
    By the way, there’s a very interesting moment on the graves of allegedly shot Soviet Soviet prisoners of war (for some reason with shrapnel wounds)
    During the defense of Kiev in August September 1941, when the front was stabilized and the dead were buried and not buried like dogs in craters, every day a car came to collect the dead and collected in an unknown direction, and there weren’t any military graves, and now they don’t exist - where did about 30 killed near Kiev go?
    I don’t understand-until now, fighters are being raised in the fields-but anyway-where did the bulk of the order of 5000 dead after the stabilization of the front
    and it turns out that the Germans massively shot our prisoners of war (for some reason, mostly with explosive and explosive injuries) and buried not far from the Babi Yar -so they tried to give out their own burial places for the atrocities of the NFZ in the post-war period, then they really understood that something was wrong, and they safely erased the topic
    By the way, about the German ammunition used for execution - if the NFZ in Crimea was killed from Arisaki - this is what the Japanese killed him)))))
    1. Brother Sarych
      Brother Sarych 28 March 2012 08: 00
      +2
      Everything is clear with Katyn - the Germans shot ...
      No one denies that some Poles were shot according to the verdicts of the court - about three thousand people, they were shot quite deservedly, but some fell into one pile ...
      And about Kiev and Babi Yar, you generally carry some crap ...
  35. rexby63
    rexby63 27 March 2012 20: 08
    +3
    My opinion is that there’s nothing even to discuss the ravings of Goebbels followers
  36. moskal
    moskal 27 March 2012 20: 16
    0
    ... the ugly brainchild of a Versailles conspiracy. It seems that he was right!
  37. Goldmitro
    Goldmitro 27 March 2012 20: 18
    +4
    I would like to hope that this marked Judas Gorbach and his hangers-on, who committed "perestroika" lawlessness, and, calling things by their proper names, deliberately and purposefully ruining the Great Country to please the West, will be brought (the sooner the better) to account for the betrayal. Before he came to power for such cases in the USSR they were put up against the wall! But there are healthy forces in today's Russia! WHY, with so many obvious falsification in the Katyn affair, not create a new authoritative commission, at least on a voluntary basis, and consider THIS CASE again with the publication of the "WHITE BOOK" based on its results ??? It is necessary, at least in this matter, finally, to put an END to this politically correct LIE flowing for the sake of specific pimpous ruinous interests, as a result of which Russia is endlessly MIXED WITH SHIT !!!
  38. moskal
    moskal 27 March 2012 20: 22
    +3
    ... the ugly brainchild of the Versailles Conspiracy Surrender, fucking was right!
  39. Ascetic
    Ascetic 27 March 2012 20: 26
    +9
    Yuri MUKHIN
    KATYN SYNDROME

    History of Katyn
    On September 1, 1939, Hitlerite Germany began a war with Poland, whose army, instead of defending its homeland, began to scatter in different directions. As a result, after the defeat of Poland, 300 thousand soldiers and officers crossed the borders of Hungary, Romania, Lithuania, and Latvia. The Soviet Union, which had moved its army towards the German, to occupy Western Ukraine and Western Belarus, got 3,5 million Polish troops. Naturally, the question was: what to do with them? The old Polish government simply fled to Romania, without signing either surrender or any kind of peace treaty in the Germans; a new so-called "government in exile" was sitting in England. As a result, the officially neutral USSR fell into a very difficult situation: if you transfer the Polish military in the country to the Germans, that is, return them to the territory of occupied Poland, this would be an unfriendly act towards England and France, supporting the "Polish government in exile." If they are expelled to any other border, that is, to give them a chance to get to Britain or France, this will be an unfriendly step towards Germany.
    A solution acceptable to the rank and file of the Polish army was quickly found. The soldier was sent to work in the national economy of the USSR; moreover, the government did everything to settle and become Soviet citizens. The situation was more complicated with the officers. According to international law, the command staff could not be forced to work, and Polish officers demanded that they fulfill their right. Thus, the USSR had to support 12000 loafers at its own expense.
    In this situation, the government of the Soviet Union acted in the only possible way. Polish officers were convicted as enemies of the USSR. Now they as prisoners could be forced to work, and after a couple of years, having been amnestied, sent to the territory of occupied Poland not as prisoners of war or internees, which cannot be done during the war, but as prisoners who have served their sentences. The full implementation of this plan was hindered by the German attack on our country on June 22, 1941.
    At this moment, Polish officers were held in camps near Smolensk. A month after the start of the war, this city was surrounded by parts of the Wehrmacht. The guards of the camps tried to get the Poles out of their encirclement, but only a few went into the country with it, while the bulk remained to wait for the Germans, hoping to calmly sit out the world war now in German captivity.
    However, these bright hopes of the Polish lords with officer shoulder straps on their shoulders did not come true. The Germans dealt with them quickly and cruelly, simply shooting them in the Katyn forest and other convenient places for this in the Smolensk region.
    This is what, according to genuine archival documents, looks like the history of Katyn, which today was thoroughly deceived and declared false. Instead, in the early 90s, as the official efforts of democratic circles led by Gorbachev, a version was adopted about the barbaric execution of Polish officers by the Soviet secret services.
    The creators of falsification
    They began to falsify the Katyn affair not at the time of perestroika, but during the Second World War. The idea to blame the execution of the Poles of the USSR belongs to the Third Reich propaganda ministry. After the crushing defeat of the Wehrmacht near Stalingrad for Germans, the question arose no longer of victory over the USSR, but about the preservation of Nazi Germany itself and its influence at least in Western Europe. To do this, it was necessary to frighten the Europeans with the coming invasion of the Bolshevik hordes, rallying them thereby to repulse the Soviet Union. So they decided in Goebbels’s department to arrange a propaganda show from the Katyn burials.
    Preparation for it was short-lived. The graves were opened, corpses were removed, bodies were added to them from other places of execution, then documents with dates later than May 1940 were removed from the pockets of dead Poles. After that, the dead were again buried and again removed from the ditches in the presence of a specially created commission, which soon announced through the media that the USSR was to blame for the execution of the Poles.
    Due to the fact that the propaganda action was being prepared by specialists of the Ministry of Propaganda in a hurry, the Germans' assertion that the officers were killed by the Soviet secret services did not hold water. Firstly, the burial was located on the territory of the pioneer camp, which worked until July 1941, so to shoot 4,5 people in such a crowded place in 1940 was unthinkable. Secondly, they did not find a single shell from the Soviet small arms in the graves, but the German shells were in bulk there.
    Thirdly, the Germans did not guess to tie the hands of those killed by the Soviet hemp cord instead of a synthetic German cord.
    Neither, and fourthly, in photocopies of documents published by German newspapers from the pockets of the deceased did the papers with dates later than 1940 come across.
    The Soviet Union, and this is quite natural, did not admit his guilt, and already in 1944, after the liberation of Smolensk region, he organized the work of the allied commission in Katyn, which unequivocally recognized that the Poles were shot by the Germans.
    After that, the Katyn affair in the Soviet Union was forgotten for many years. Once again, it surfaced only in the second half of the 1980s, when Gorbachev came to power. The so-called democratic circles that supported him initiated a review of the execution near Katyn. First, the data collected by the US Congress Commission, allegedly unambiguously testifying to the guilt of the USSR in the murder of Polish officers, were made public. In fact, these were documents fabricated by the Germans back in 1943. However, the fact of their publication turned out to be enough for Gorbachev to revise the Katyn story. Crowds of democratic historians like D. A. Volkogonov rushed to previously closed archives.
    Ignoring the documents that testified that the court of the Special Conference at the NKVD sentenced Polish officers to imprisonment periods of 3 to 8 years in the Gulag camps in Smolensk region, the revisionists said: by the decision of this meeting of the regiments, they had been shot. There was hype in the press, which led to the fact that in 1990 the chief military prosecutor of the USSR, Katusev, assembled an investigation team, which supposedly had to figure out the Katyn case. In reality, while fulfilling the political order of the authorities, she practically falsified it. Investigators ignored all documents proving the innocence of the USSR, and filled in the files of the case, in fact, with their own fabrications proving his guilt.
    However, even before the end of the work of the investigative team, Gorbachev, back in April 1990, declared to the whole world that the USSR was taking the blame for the shooting of the Poles near Katyn. This proves once again: the investigation was ordered and its result was known in advance. Only in 1992 did the investigative team finish its work by issuing a conclusion to the mountain, so long-awaited for Gorbachev, who had already retired: the Poles were shot by Soviet special services by decision of the Special Meeting. The main evidence was hundreds of genuine documents showing that the affairs of Polish officers were examined by this body. However, not a single genuine verdict was presented to the public, and this is natural: A special meeting assigned the Poles only terms of imprisonment. Moreover, he had no right to pronounce death sentences until November 1941. And it turned out: referring to the fact that the Poles were engaged in a special meeting of the NKVD of the USSR, the investigating team, without suspecting it, proved the USSR's innocence of the execution of Polish officers.
    1. Ascetic
      Ascetic 27 March 2012 20: 31
      +10
      The trial of the CPSU
      The next act of the Katyn case was the trial of the CPSU, which took place in the summer and autumn of 1992. One of the points of accusation put forward by the Democrats against the party was the shooting near Katyn. However, it did not make sense to justify it with the results of the work of the investigation team. It was necessary to find documentary evidence of the guilt of the USSR, and therefore the party, in the murder of Polish officers. Due to the lack of such, the authorities led by Yeltsin did not find anything better than falsifying the papers they needed. There is reason to believe that the case was assigned to the team of the chief archivist of Russia R. Pihoye. Through the efforts of this brigade, the version of the Katyn events has again undergone changes. Now it looked like this: they say that the Politburo of the CPSU (B.) First wanted to consider the affairs of the Poles at the Special Meeting, and at the beginning of March 1940 changed its mind and decided to entrust the execution of firing sentences to the "special trios."
      To confirm this, 5 false documents were fabricated. According to them, the Katyn case looked like this: In March 1940, the People's Commissar of the NKVD L.P. Beria allegedly wrote a letter to the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks with a proposal to create a kind of "troika" and entrust it to all Polish officers who are in prison in the USSR death sentences. The Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU (B.) Allegedly decided to do so. Accordingly, in April-May 1940, the Poles were taken out of three officer prisoner-of-war camps: one batch of 4 thousand people was sent to a pioneer camp near Smolensk, and they were shot and buried on its territory; the second batch of 6 thousand people - in the administrative building of the NKVD in Kalinin, where they were shot, and the corpses were transported and buried near Kalinin; the third batch of 4 thousand people - in the administrative building of the NKVD in Kharkov, where they were shot, and the corpses were buried near Kharkov.
      All five documents confirming such a course of events were first published in the trial of the CPSU, and not in the form of originals, but in the form of photocopies. Despite the fact that the party’s defenders showed themselves in the middle during the trial, even they immediately doubted the authenticity of these papers. F. Rudinsky had doubts about the authenticity of Beria's note to Stalin dated March 5, 1940. The signatures on it only vaguely resembled the signatures of Stalin, Voroshilov, Molotov, Mikoyan. Y. Slobodkin supported his colleague and drew attention to the fact that the protocol of the Politburo meeting, where Beria’s proposals for the execution of the Poles were discussed, was listed as No. 144, and the previous meeting as No. 136. The meetings were always numbered in order, therefore, the document submitted, be it he should have been number 137. Moreover, Beria’s note is dated March 5, and the minutes of the Politburo meeting are dated the same number. This simply could not be, because even if the note had managed to get to Stalin on the same day, it could be at the discussion in the Politburo only a few days later.
      Another document did not stand up to criticism - an extract from the protocol of the Politburo, on which a decision was made to destroy the accounts of the executed Poles sent to the chairman of the KGB Shelepin in 1959 Khrushchev. This extract is printed on the letterhead of the Central Committee of the CPSU (B.), And in 1959 the Communist Party was already called the CPSU. That is, the falsifiers did not know when the name of the CPSU (b) was changed to the CPSU, and they fabricated a document supposedly from the late 50s on a letterhead of the 30s. It is impossible to take seriously such “documents” seriously, it was obvious even to the unfortunate falsifiers themselves. It was no longer possible to remake them, bringing them to a more or less plausible look, because these papers were lit up at the trial of the CPSU. There was only one way out: to refer to them without showing. This is what happened.
      Since the fall of 1992, when I first learned about the existence of these "documents", I tried in vain to find them in printed form. Only two years later I succeeded. My friends gave me the collection “Military Archives of Russia”, the first issue in 1993. This issue remained the only one, moreover, its circulation appeared in free sale only in 1999, when the story with fakes that surfaced during the trial of the CPSU was deeply forgotten.
      Among the authentic documents in this collection were also published Katyn fakes, though not all, but only three out of five: “a letter to Beria to Stalin”, “extract from the protocol of the Politburo” and “letter from Shelepin Khrushchev with the draft resolution of the Politburo”. Naturally, in the publication the documents were given not in a facsimile image, but in reprint. Only fragments that were selected in such a way that the bloopers that emerged in the court were not visible were facsimilely reproduced.
      In about the same form, fakes were published in the journal Voprosy istorii (No. 1, 1993). However, it is completely wrong to think that subscribers received it in January of the ninety-third. In the output of the journal it is printed that this number is signed on the seal of 22.XII.93. In other words, he could not be published before the beginning of 1994. From conversations with library workers, I was able to find out: “Questions of History” No. 1 for 1993, came to them at the beginning of 1995! All these oddities with the publication of Katyn "documents" quite eloquently testify to their falsity. I came to this conclusion in my book “Katyn Detective,” published in 1995. The conjecture expressed by me then was fully confirmed when I finally managed to get photocopies of these papers.
      Just one document
      In order for the reader to become aware of the falsity of the Katyn case’s documentary base, we’ll analyze only one document: a letter from the chairman of the State Security Committee, A. N. Shelepin Khrushchev, with a draft resolution on the destruction of the accounting files of executed Polish officers. The letter was executed not on the KGB letterhead (apparently, the falsifiers, already taught by bitter experience, were again afraid to confuse the CPSU (b) with the CPSU), but on plain paper by hand and contains the following text: “Top secret to Comrade Khrushchev N. S.
      Since 1940, the State Security Committee under the Council of Ministers of the USSR has kept records and other materials on the captured and interned officers, gendarmes, policemen, besiegers, landowners, etc. people of the former bourgeois Poland who were shot in the same year. In total, according to the decisions of the special troop of the NKVD of the USSR, 21.857 people were shot, of whom: 4.421 people in the Katyn forest (Smolensk region), 3.820 people in the Starobelsky camp, 6.311 people in the Ostashkovsky camp (Kalinin region) and 7.3305 people were shot in other camps and prisons in Western Ukraine and Western Belarus.
      The entire operation to liquidate these persons was carried out on the basis of the Decree of the Central Committee of the CPSU of March 5, 1940. All of them were sentenced to capital punishment in accounting cases instituted against them as prisoners of war and internees in 1939.
      Since the operation was carried out, that is, since 1940, no certificates have been issued to anyone about these cases, and all cases in the amount of 21.957 are stored in a sealed room.
      For the Soviet authorities, all these matters are of neither operational interest nor historical value. They can hardly be of real interest to our Polish friends. On the contrary, any unforeseen accident can lead to the disclosure of the operation carried out with all the consequences undesirable for our state. Moreover, with regard to those shot in the Katyn Forest, there is an official version, confirmed by an investigation of the Commission carried out on the initiative of the Soviet authorities in 1944, entitled: "A Special Commission for the Establishment and Investigation of the Shooting of Polish Officers of War by Nazi invaders in the Katyn Forest."
      According to the conclusions of this commission, all Poles eliminated there are considered to be destroyed by the German invaders. The materials of the investigation at that time were widely covered in the Soviet and foreign press. The conclusions of the commission are firmly entrenched in international public opinion. Based on the foregoing, it seems advisable to destroy all accounting cases against persons shot in 1940 by the above-mentioned operation.
      1. Ascetic
        Ascetic 27 March 2012 20: 33
        +12
        For the execution of requests that may be on the line of the CPSU Central Committee or the Soviet government, one can leave the minutes of the meetings of the troika of the NKVD of the USSR, which condemned these persons to be shot, and acts on the enforcement of the decisions of the troika.
        These documents are insignificant in volume and can be stored in a special folder. The draft resolution of the Central Committee of the CPSU is attached.
        Chairman of the USSR State Security Committee under the Council of Ministers of the USSR A. Shelepin March 3, 1959, N-632-Sh. "
        At the top of the document is the stamp “Special Folder”, from which we can conclude that this paper was stored in the Central Committee. There is a signature. Similar to Shelepin’s signature, and on the upper right there is a clear stamp “To be returned. 0680. - March 9, 1965. 6th sector in the Central Committee of the CPSU. Common department". At the end of the page is a completely vague stamp with the number “9485” and handwritten notes “-59” and “20 III 65”. Now let's think about the meaning of the stamps on the letter! It turns out that the letter from the chairman of the KGB Shelepin to the first secretary of the Central Committee Khrushchev went 6 years and 6 days! This is a clear sign of an inept fake. This “document” was presented in the 90s to the then still living Shelepin, who immediately poked his face with these stamps by the prosecutor’s employee, Lieutenant Colonel of Justice Yablokov. He did not find anything better than to turn to one of the falsifiers Korotkov for clarification. Not knowing what to answer, this gentleman redirected the prosecutor to his deputy Stepanov, who gave a completely crazy explanation. In practice, the KGB allegedly there was a procedure for the production of especially important documents in a single copy, in handwritten form. Such papers could not be registered for a long time and kept in the safes of the Central Committee employees. In this particular case, in the safe of the head of the general department of Raspberry. In connection with his resignation from this position in 1965 on March 9 of this year, the document was registered in the current paperwork under number 0680, and on March 20 under number 9485 it was submitted to the Central Committee archives.
        Unfortunately for Stepanov, I have to note: this letter is the only example of such a practice. Moreover, the document has an outgoing number (N-632-Ш), which means that it was sent to the Central Committee through the secretariat of the KGB, and he accordingly came to the secretariat of the Central Committee. Here he would have to be registered and put an incoming number, which for some reason is not. It turns out that no one saw the letters of Shelepin in the Central Committee until March 9, 1965! But this could not be! There can only be one explanation for all this: counterfeiters, falsifying the Central Committee’s stamp, mixed up the numbers with 5 and 9 places, and the nine were also turned upside down, and that happened instead of 1959 - 1965. Already after this “document” was published in reprinted form, in order to somehow explain such a strange date, they added one more serial number from the bottom of the hand - 9485 and the number 20 III 65, which should have confirmed Stepanov’s ridiculous version.
        The text of the letter is not faultless. It states that in 1959, 3820 registration files of Polish officers were stored in the archive, destroyed in the Starobelsky camp near Katyn. However, back in 1990, the media published an act (obviously also false) about the burning of these cases on October 25, 1940! Where did these things come from in the fifty-ninth?
        It is easy to see that there is no need to talk about the authenticity of the documents of the Katyn case. After a careful analysis of other archival papers related to Katyn, I counted more than 40 signs of their falsity.
        Today it is completely clear to me that there is no evidence of guilt of the USSR in the execution of Polish officers in the Smolensk region in nature. It’s also obvious to me: the real culprits of the Katyn tragedy are Germans and partly Polish officers themselves, who refused to leave with the guards of the camps in the rear of the Red Army. They apparently thought that they would be better off under the Germanic. What came of this is well known: the Germans killed the ditches in the Katyn Forest with the corpses of these same Poles!
        I am absolutely convinced: a huge number of "sensational documents", extracted from secret archives in the last 20 years and defaming the history of our country, are as cheap fakes as the "incontrovertible evidence" considered by me in this article on the Katyn case.
        1. revnagan
          revnagan 27 March 2012 21: 46
          +4
          Thank you very much, dear Ascetic, for the detailed fuck off. But I want to say to the Kiev citizen and SAS, well, have you eaten?
          1. Kievan
            Kievan 28 March 2012 03: 08
            -5
            Quote: revnagan
            Thank you very much, dear Ascetic, for the detailed fuck off. But I want to say to the Kiev citizen and SAS, well, have you eaten?

            Like you, I, as probably the vast majority, have not seen any documents on the Katyn case. My point is simple as the corner of the house - Gorbachev, Yeltsin, Putin, Medvedev and everything else the top leadership of the USSR / RF in their right mind and sober memory did not take such a thing on the country. And if they took it, then they were sure. Putin certainly didn’t get on his knees if there were doubts.

            Threat In Lviv prisons before the retreat of the NKVD shot several thousand people. They shot just everyone without trial or investigation. Doesn’t resemble anything?
  40. malera
    malera 27 March 2012 20: 45
    0
    Quote: Strabo
    Toothlessness of Russia on this issue is surprising. Why Americans do not show murders and executions in other regions. Why? Why Russia continues to be afraid of everyone and everything.

    What is there to be surprised. Remember where the Kremlin stores government money. Remembered? That's right, in the USA.
    Remember where friends of the Kremlin and close associates store stolen money with exorbitant labor. Right, in western banks.
    Here is the answer.
    1. Major major
      Major major 27 March 2012 21: 33
      +3
      It is possible, and quite, that they also admit some kind of lawsuit about the "illegal" attack on the peacekeeping U-2 Powers - over time.
    2. Igarr
      Igarr 27 March 2012 21: 52
      +2
      Aw. well done, ah, smart ...
      I admit, right. Store ... and yes ... where? do you know exactly what is there?
      Like in that fairy tale ... where three heads had to be cut down ... for someone.
      Here, malera, you chopped off three heads ... and I, a miracle of mind, died ... (we cross for the third time, well, this is good, in my opinion).


      Now, count up the option ...
      In December 2012, after the expiration of the Fed's term of office for printing "green" candy wrappers, not backed by ANYTHING ..
      Russia will present for execution - payment obligations ... whom?
      Fed? ..., States ...? .... EU?
      who and what .. will do?

      Become in a pose - krevedko?
  41. killganoff
    killganoff 27 March 2012 21: 38
    +4
    Government-traitors of the people and the Fatherland.
    Management specifically works to worsen the perception of Russia and its significance in world history. Soon we will be accused of unleashing the Second World War.
    The Japanese already believe that bombs were dropped on Soviet aircraft from Hirasima and Nagasaki.
    "vodka + bear + felt boots + cattle + Dimabilan = Russia." - a turn of the Post-Soviet space.
  42. panzer
    panzer 27 March 2012 22: 12
    +3
    I read that there is a picture in Polish history textbooks: Russian grenadiers saluting Suvorov with bayonets with impaled babies. Proven historical fake invented by the Poles in revenge for the suppressed uprising. But they are in no hurry to remove this "Illustration" from the textbooks. What do Polish children think about when leafing through this book? Someone really wants to quarrel with us, so that Russia has no friends, relatives or neighbors ...
  43. ward
    ward 27 March 2012 22: 19
    +5
    We got a word of honor with this Katyn ... It’s IMPOSSIBLE to prove to a Pole ... As a person of royal blood, ALL Poles SUCH AS Polish kings gained their fame as the first European morons ... Sincerely sure that EVERYTHING is only for them ... Bright an example is their president ... Died himself, ditched people ... and who is to blame ... of course our dispatchers .... I am not a racist ... but at one time communication with them led to the idea that some are not so were wrong ...
  44. Kievan
    Kievan 27 March 2012 22: 51
    -6
    for skullcap

    this is about the place of Alexander Nevsky and Danila Galitsky in the history of Russia. The text is not mine.

    About two different peoples. Nevertheless, in relation to the Russians to the Ukrainians, to Ukraine, there is something key, fateful for us Russians. For Ukrainians, Russia is also significant, but only as a repulsion point, helping to realize its own, Ukrainian, otherness. For Russians, Ukraine, on the contrary, is a point of constant attraction, jealous attention, an object of absorption as something “primordially own” and alteration in its own image and likeness. Nothing irritates the Russians more than the obvious differences with the Ukrainians in language, mentality, culture, and historical experience. If Russians recognize these differences, it is only at the level of differences, say, between the Vladimir and Ryazan regions, but not at the level of relations between two different peoples. There is an opinion that Russia without Ukraine is imperfect in the imperial plan. Brzezinski said something in the same spirit, and not only he. This thought is true. But the point is not so much in the economic and geopolitical significance of Ukraine for Moscow. The fact is that the traditional Russian attitude towards Ukraine, in essence, is based on the Russian imperial consciousness, thanks to which the Russian empire, albeit in a truncated form, still exists. I emphasize: it is the attitude towards Ukraine - not towards the Baltic States, not towards the Caucasus - that is decisive for the Russian imperial consciousness. As soon as the Russians discover that Ukrainians are REALLY a different nation, the Russian imperial myth will collapse, and the empire will inevitably end with it. I must say that in words the Russians are always ready to admit that Ukrainians are a people, but attention! - "brotherly people." Behind this crafty formula lies the firm conviction that we, Russians and Ukrainians, are ONE people called to live in the same state with the capital in Moscow. Speaking of the “brotherly Ukrainian people”, most Russians perceive the Ukrainian language and Ukraine itself as an annoying historical misunderstanding, a historical dislocation that arose due to the harmful influence of Lithuania and Poland. And at the same time, the Russians do not ask themselves: maybe they themselves are a dislocation? Historically, just we Russians are dislocated. Tatar people dislocated us. As far back as the XNUMXth century, two opposing historical vectors were outlined that determined the further formation of the Ukrainian and Russian peoples. The first vector is the fight against the Horde in alliance with Europe, the second is the fight against Europe in alliance with the Horde. They personified respectively in the personalities of Daniil Galitsky and Alexander Nevsky. The first vector is natural and logical in cultural and historical terms. The second vector is the deepest perversion with far-reaching consequences: cultural, state, historical, psychological, moral. And if King Daniel is an iconic figure of Ukraine, then the adopted Khan's son Alexander Nevsky is an iconic figure of Russia, her “name". This is the source of current Russian-Ukrainian relations. After that, talking about the "two fraternal peoples" is not necessary. Civilizational hostility is already predetermined by these two historical figures. They can be called people-forming. As far as Daniil Galitsky is unlike Alexander Nevsky, so are Ukrainians unlike Russians - in their attitude to law, freedom, property. If Ukrainian self-consciousness has historically gravitated toward Europe, then traditional Russian self-consciousness perceives Europe with a greater or lesser degree of hostility, mistrust and envy, the reverse side of which is the messianic arrogance and revealing pathos in relation to the “rotten West”. Europe for Russians is a “lost paradise", from where they were torn out by the Tatar lasso. It was the conflict between the original European nature and the imposed Asianism of history and statehood that determined the Russian psychotype, all its complexes and phobias. All Russian neuroses - from drunkenness to Bolshevism - are from here. Having lost Europe, the Russians didn’t just want to forget it — they decided to hate it, having loved their historical misfortune, all this Asianism imposed on them by fate. This psychological and mental perversion is called Russian patriotism. Ukraine, thanks to Lithuania and - yes, yes! - the Commonwealth, retained its involvement in Europe, preserved as Russia in the true sense of the term. And we were reborn in Muscovy, having lost the original civilizational identity. And this is precisely the subject of our Russian, or rather Muscovite jealousy, defining our attitude towards Ukraine. Even at Pereyaslav Rada (1654), at the notorious “reunion,” I must say, very forced by the Cossacks, two different peoples met, speaking different languages. Few people know that in Pereyaslavl Cossacks, agreeing to swear an oath to the Moscow Tsar, insisted that he, in turn, swore allegiance to the Cossacks in respect of their liberties. That is, the Cossacks claimed to be carriers of a typically WESTERN legal culture. Of course, this aroused the indignation of the Moscow side, which stated that "it wasn’t for us to have the kings give the oath to the subjects, and your lords will be respected by the Emperor." It seems that the Cossacks did not have much faith in Moscow: the four regiments to the tsar in Pereyaslavl never swore allegiance ... As Russia “respected” Cossack liberties, it is well known that it tried its best to eliminate the Ukrainian “historical misunderstanding”. Soon after the Pereyaslavskaya Rada, the Moscowization of Ukraine began: the imposition of the voivode, the curtailment of city self-government, the oppression of the Cossacks, the promotion of denunciation, etc. In 1662, the Little Russian order was created, which was directly subordinate to the tsar. Through him, the king confirmed the applicants for hetmanism, planted the governor in Ukrainian cities, built fortresses in Ukraine, directed the actions of Moscow and Cossack troops. In addition, this department oversaw the activities of the hetman and controlled all contacts of Ukrainians with Muscovy. The Kremlin did not even recall the Pereyaslav agreements. Then there was indicative genocide in Baturin (1708) - the response of Peter the Great to the attempt by the hetman Mazepa to defend the remnants of the sovereignty of Ukraine. Then followed the two extermination of the Zaporizhzhya Sich - Peter and, finally, Catherine.

    continuation

    And more recently, during the time of Viktor Yushchenko, we saw how Moscow struggled with the Ukrainian “historical misunderstanding” by manipulating Gazprom stubs. Of course, the Cossacks in the seventeenth century should not have entered into such an acute confrontation with the Poles, who in a civilizational sense were much closer to the Cossacks than the Muscovites, despite their Orthodoxy. In turn, the proud Poles needed to understand that only Moscow would benefit from their conflict with the Cossacks. Of course, federal and legal reform of the Commonwealth was required, consisting of only two entities - Poland and Lithuania. It was required to recognize the third subject - Ukraine (Russia). This happened at the conclusion of the Gadyach Union (1658). But, alas, it’s too late: the Cossacks' hatred of the “Poles” was already too great, and the project failed. If it had arisen earlier - and Ukraine would have every chance to exist today as a full-fledged European state. And our, Russian, fate would have been different, since without Ukraine Russia would hardly have turned into a monstrous empire, which in the end was born out of Bolshevism. Muscovy would inevitably become part of a more civilized and strong neighbor. And we, Russians, would now live in Europe, without behind the Gulag and other vile historical experience. And the very history of Europe would be different ... So, "two fraternal peoples." But, as we see, in the final analysis, the cultural and historical genesis of Russians and Ukrainians are completely different, even opposite. We, Russians, of course, are brothers to Ukrainians, but brothers who have undergone some unpleasant mutation. We are dangerous, as if we carry some kind of destructive infection within us, and therefore we who instinctively shun all those who live to the west: Ukrainians, Baltic states, and now Belarusians. But China is leaning closer and closer to us ... Along with the idea of ​​“two brotherly people”, there is a completely rabid cheers-patriotic “concept” of the “triune Russian people”, supposedly consisting of Great Russians, Little Russians and Belarusians. This mythologem falls apart at the first careful examination. Linguistic affinity? I am sure that most of the adherents of the idea of ​​the “triune Russian people” will not be able to understand most of the colloquial phrases in Ukrainian. The linguistic differences between Russians and Ukrainians are obvious and significant. Their languages ​​are, of course, related, but, say, the Serbian language is also very related to Russian, but it doesn’t occur to any normal people to consider Serbs and Russians as one people. By the way, the Serbs and Croats have the same language in general, but these peoples, despite the common Slavic root, are by no means fraternal, but civilizationally multidirectional. They will say: they were divided by religion. Well, let's take the Serbs and Montenegrins - one language, one faith. Differences between them are hundreds of times smaller than between Russians and Ukrainians. Nevertheless, despite the great-power desire of Serbia to consider Montenegro as its continuation - no more! - Montenegrins consider themselves a separate people with their own history and culture. I will not go into details here, but probably few people know that around 1920-26. Montenegrins fought a guerrilla national liberation war against the Serbian army that occupied Montenegro under the pretext of fraternal assistance.
    1. skullcap
      skullcap 28 March 2012 13: 07
      +4
      Everything written is a lie of the Russophobe mowing down as Russian. The lie is sophisticated and multi-level and, apparently, well-paid. To fully reveal it, each message must be answered with an article.
      For lack of such an opportunity - only about some moments of gross lies.

      1. Ukraine, thanks to Lithuania and - yes, yes! - the Commonwealth, retained its involvement in Europe, preserved as Russia in the true sense of the term. And we were reborn in Muscovy, having lost the original civilizational identity. Muscovy would inevitably become part of a more civilized and strong neighbor.
      -------------------------------------------------- -----
      A typical example of zombie people using Orwell’s Newspeak, such as: “Peace is war, war is peace”.
      This is precisely the statement that Russia, as a working cattle, remained under the Vatican, and Moscow Russia, which retained its independence, lost itself because it did not degenerate into Europeans.
      Here, incidentally, it will be more accurate to say that this central and northern Europe was reborn under the influence of the Vatican onslaught from southern Europe, changing everything: language, faith, culture, history, even its historical names. And who did not give up - was destroyed.

      2. And we, Russians, would now live in Europe without having behind the gulag and other vile historical experience
      --------
      How is the experience of the Tellerhof, Majdanek or Auschwitz more attractive than the Gulag?
      In this case, neither Russian, especially Ukrainians, most likely would simply not have existed. I'm not talking about the Baltic states. If they would have recalled them now, then along with the Prussians.

      3. take the Serbs and Montenegrins
      ----------------
      I have twice rested in Montenegro. Not many, but the Montenegrins speak Russian. When I asked why they separated from the Serbs, especially with Albanians at their side, they replied that this was done not by the people, but by traitors from the government and intellectuals who did not want to work as a people.
      That is, the situation is absolutely analogous to the situation in all parts of Russia: Small, White and Great, where there are also a lot of Judas of various kinds.

      4. All Russian neuroses - from drunkenness to Bolshevism ...
      ----------
      There are many materials that Russia was infected by drunkenness from the West, and to say that Bolshevism is a Russian phenomenon is generally beyond both ignorance and conscience.
      The science of the dictatorship of the proletariat was not created in Russia, and there were practically no Russians among practitioners (look at the national composition of the leading party and state bodies for this period). If they were Russians by origin, then they were fanatical Westerners (zombies, mankurts or orcs - as anyone understands), who hated and annihilated everything Russian and all Russians. And their wives and them, by the way, were also non-Russians.
      So there is no need for Western crimes, even though they occurred in Russia, to hang on the Russians.

      As always - everything written about Russia in the West (or the western fifth column) is a vile libel of an unsuccessful robber on his failed victim.
  45. wk
    wk 27 March 2012 23: 20
    +1
    Details from the respected historian Yu. Zhukov
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=L38cCzpBluY
  46. Mad robot
    Mad robot 28 March 2012 00: 27
    +2
    And I didn’t even doubt that this was a falsification, the paper ropes with which the Poles were bound immediately came to mind (they were German, they were not carried out in the Union).
  47. phantom359
    phantom359 28 March 2012 00: 39
    +5
    These are really golden words - the winner writes the story. NATO officials believe that they won, so they turn everything upside down. Even Psheks, who were never normal warriors, stick in their five cents. Why, then, does nobody remember the thousands of destroyed Red Army soldiers in Polish captivity? How did the psheks practice saber and lance attacks on prisoners? And some 50 years ago they were glad crazy that the barbarians freed them from civilized and cultured Germans.
  48. killganoff
    killganoff 28 March 2012 08: 57
    -1
    Here we are all discussing how they want to divide us all and distort history, but nobody is going to do anything ... Generations leave and come, the situation only worsens over the years, the werewolves sitting in the Kremlin are doing their job.
    And it’s not only the story is revised, the present is rendered worthless to posterity .. In recent years, how much devotedly: Yugoslavia, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria ...
  49. Nechai
    Nechai 28 March 2012 16: 00
    0
    Quote: Kievite
    My point is simple as the corner of the house - Gorbachev, Yeltsin, Putin, Medvedev and everything else the top leadership of the USSR / RF in their right mind and sober memory did not take such a thing on the country. And if they took it, it means they were sure

    And who asked them. They will, will not "take this" - called himself a load - get into the back. Russia is just beginning to restore, at times timidly and cautiously, its complete sovereignty in domestic and foreign policy.
    The reason for the killing of Polish officers is most likely simple and banal. The Teutons near the headquarters of the Army Group Center, unexpectedly and unwittingly, suddenly discover such a mass of gentry. The Germans have fresh memories of how in 1939, within one and a half to two months, the policy of the Polish state changed dramatically and the attitude towards the German population in Poland crossed all reasonable boundaries, as the "green" whistle sounded from London. And here, moreover, and spent almost two years under the influence of communist propaganda and filtered by the security organs of the USSR cadres. And not at all shot. Contained practically in the position of internees in / employees. As a reserve, of course, in case of an alliance with limes. The Wehrmacht filter system, although already tuned, is working with tension. And there is no one to deal with them and not when. And so there are no people and no problem. When in Berlin they learned about such a radical independent solution of the "Polish question", they realized that it was possible to fish in the muddy water. Try to drive a wedge into the anti-Hitler coalition.
  50. orient
    orient 28 March 2012 18: 05
    +1
    Kievan,
    Quote: Kievite
    Linguistic affinity? I am sure that most of the adherents of the idea of ​​the “triune Russian people” will not be able to understand most of the colloquial phrases in Ukrainian. The linguistic differences between Russians and Ukrainians are obvious and significant. Their languages ​​are, of course, related, but, say, the Serbian language is also very related to Russian

    I came across as a publication in some newspaper about how the text of the ancient KIEV letter was translated into modern Ukrainian and Russian languages. The result is very close to Russian, it is easy to trace not only the identity of many words, but also the closeness of the general perception of what is written. There is nothing similar to Ukrainian, there is no common sense at all, Polish, Tatar and other sources are clearly visible in the origin of many Ukrainian words. Academician Tolochko lives in Kiev, who is able to explain this fact to a "Kievite" ... a "Kievite", contact if you want to understand ... And what amazes me in such "Kievites" is the desire in our time to look only for differences between Russians and Ukrainians instead of looking for similarities. Or does history teach nothing?