Military Review

Limit as a burning issue of the modern Russian army

80



We have long thought whether to raise this topic at all. Should I throw a spoonful of tar in a barrel of honey or add black paint to a beautiful picture of the combat training of our units? But the term “beautiful picture” itself, perhaps, is the reason.

The picture is, in fact, what all the media are going to do exercises and maneuvers. Today, two concepts should be clearly separated, for maneuvers are an exemplary show of the West-2017 type, arranged with a very transparent and definite goal, and the exercises are a daily process, let's say, within the army.

So, the picture. With BTU in the course of the next inspection of ZVO troops by the district command.



The picture is quite, the test passed with a rating of "good", which also inspires a certain optimism and confidence. What's next?

And then the fact that the picture did not fall. And left behind the scenes.

The next period of study has passed. "Army Games", "ARMY-2017", "West-2017". It all ended quite beautifully. But this is already a component of the management of the modern army and the military industrial complex, without which, obviously (but it is not clear, to be honest), today’s day is impossible.

On the other hand, from the number of sudden inspections that took place during this period, even the head was spinning. In one or the other district, parts and formations were alarmed and fulfilled various, often quite serious and complex tasks.

For the time being, we’ll set aside entertainment managers. If it is impossible without them, then it is impossible. But here, unfortunately, one clings to another.

It is clear that the equipment must be sold for a weighty dollar, and for this it must be properly advertised and shown. It is clear that it is necessary to show systematically and regularly that from the taiga and to the famous seas our army is capable of hanging anyone. The question is only in volume and quality.

And there are no complaints, it is necessary - it means it is necessary. But why due to the processes going along?

Talking with officers of various units, you catch yourself thinking that the army is really doing what it should be. Combat studies are coming. Soldiers are trained. Officers are teaching. Those who are supposed to participate in combat operations. However, this still causes concern and misunderstanding, you can hear quite wild words. Not very understandable by civilians, but familiar to any military man.

From the last: "Limit pulled up." It becomes clear why during the test for the battery of mortars (8 units) allocated as much 32 charge. You can shoot it. No, if it is hypothetical to assume that the crews practiced in advance, in the FAP, at "their" training ground, then yes. Why hypothetically? Well, simply because the “firing” ground is kind of close by and you can control it.

If we add to this the “corner of the eye” about shipped trucks with ammunition to Zapad-2017, then some things become clear.

Normal people may have a fair question: have you gone crazy there? Are there no cartridges and shells in Russia? Warehouses full of poke in the face?

Do not. We know about warehouses. But there is a difference between the ammunition allocated for the training process and the reserve in case of military actions. These are two completely different boxes. And the second is more important.

But what to do if you need to splurge? Six hundred meters in the "West" were infantrymen, watering targets on several lines. Artillery plowed the field as it would have been in actual combat use. And everything was successfully amazed.

Not surprising, by the way. For the "West" personnel were collected in all districts. And we went there as the "Army Games", the best of the best. Who does not screw up and do not miss the faces of the observers. So everything is really natural.

But back to those who did not get to the “West”. And he remained to pass the standards for inspections. And then they went not that complexity, not that window dressing, no. But it is necessary to turn out.

You remember the teachings you have attended, or you look through frames that did not fit into the picture, and you understand that here, too, “not everything is so simple”. The platoon control really controls each cartridge. And sometimes, when on the tower there are especially "harmful" inspectors, it is not a deception, but a tactical maneuver. Closer to the "eyes" puts those who are trained and can "show", and those who are neither fish nor fowl - far away, on the flank. Which is quite logical, the ammunition will burn, and the target will not hit. A platoon, company, battalion will not perform a combat mission.

Why, in the presence of three grenades for RPGs, three grenade launchers? One is truly a master. The commander is sure of it. And two are so-so. They can get, or they can pick up the parapet or shoot a mythical helicopter instead tank. And then oh how difficult it will be for the unit.

Now those who served before, smiled. The usual practice has always been. They taught everyone, but on shooting they tried to put "masters" on the most "dangerous" directions. The task itself will perform and help someone. Moreover, this is the skill of the commander in managing the battle. Use your strengths and hide from the enemy weak. The main thing was and remains - his Majesty Result!

I do not argue. So it will be. However, besides the task on specific exercises, there are others. More global and significant for the country. Strange? Does a young green lieutenant perform tasks significant for the country anywhere in Siberia or in the Far East? Not in Syria, not in the "West-2017", not in the army games. Yes, oddly enough, even in the usual distant garrison.

We are always preparing for war. The army and is intended. That's why we spend a lot of money on training soldiers and sergeants. We spend "in nowhere" from the point of view of our liberal fellow citizens. A soldier served a deadline and left. Do not drive a tank or mine the road. He went to build, study, plow the land, drive a bus in the city ...

But we understand that this is the most important element of the country's defense. This is a reserve. This is the one who in case of what will go second tier. The one who will bring victory. And these costs are nothing but a contribution to a future victory. And the lieutenant is suffering at the shooting range or shooting range with "mama's son" that's why.

But there is also a "modern" task. The one that was not in the Soviet Army.

Today, the platoon or company commander also looks at the footage. From dozens and even hundreds of conscripts look out for those from whom the Soldier can turn out. Who needs the army. And who needs the army. Remember your service. Surely everyone has such a "copy" in memory. “Balbase is terrible, but he shot like a god” or “a sapper from God, I understood mine in my gut” ...

The officers look out for future contractors.

And today, the "double basses" are the real core of the army.

But now a completely legitimate question arises, which we hear at different ranges, in different companies, from officers of different types of troops. How can you find a good tank driver if driving is limited? "Goryuchka" does not seem to be in short supply, but ...

And with gunners even worse. It’s not only in the fuel business, but the number of shots must also be thought about the resource of the barrels. And again: "shared" with the "West".

Maybe this very "tank genius" is now in the ranks. And they didn’t see him simply because he didn’t open up until the end while driving. I almost understood the power of the engine. Not "rooted" in the dimensions of the machine ...

And how can you find another specialist? Sniper, who is not allowed to shoot? Minesweeper, who once saw a combat mine in a class? A rocketman who wiped a rocket a year and had never participated in a real launch?

From television screens, from the pages of print publications, from the lips of our statesmen and the opposition, we hear about the budget deficit, about the tasks that need to be ... We clap our hands when our crews are winning at the games ... We are talking with an understanding the need to "find reserves" and the "effectiveness" of the use of available forces and means.

Winning games is great. But these are games, these are competitions of the best of the best. But after all, in the event of something, it will be necessary to win not to master athletes, and not to the pilots of aerial teams.

By the way, they are just that reserve, which in that very case will be preparing replenishment. None "Swifts" or "Russian Knights" with bombs will not send to the BR.

And what about the lieutenant or the captain from the usual part? How to be the commander of this unit? How to teach people if deficiency is everywhere? If every liter of fuel or every cartridge is registered? Not because someone can steal. Not. Just "you allocated." Limit.

The Russian army today has really changed for the better. There are many things that make us proud of her. But the old approaches to supply simply vybeshivayut, to be honest.

It is clear that the level of a platoon, company, battalion and even a regiment is not the one from which you can shout to the minister or the head of the relevant department of the Ministry of Defense. Every hare wears its ears. But it is not clear why the generals so quickly forget their own officer youth. Own platoon, company, battalion? Or do warm rooms affect memory? Strategist can not be a tactician?

But any strategic task is solved by tactics. In order to turn "front", these same companies and battalions must turn. And not on the map, but on the ground. Under enemy fire. So give the unit commanders the opportunity, we repeat, the opportunity, to make their units capable of carrying out your strategic ideas.

We repeat for the third time that in no way do we criticize all these managerial things like exhibitions and maneuvers. But we advocate that in the modern Russian army as much time and resources as possible should be devoted to combat training.

Tvardovsky in the famous "Vasily Turkin" has the lines: "Ensure, since I am worthy. And you all must understand ..."

Yes, Twardowski writes about the award for the hero. Only after all, in order for heroes to appear, you need to grow them. To train. Inspire confidence in your own strengths. Self-confidence weapons. And such confidence gives not so much theoretical as practical possession of these very weapons. Practical!

It’s a paradox, but behind the scenes comrades senior officers (from a major and above) mostly do not talk about preferences or indexing money allowances. Although it was not indexed with 2014, despite the increase in prices. And not even on the topic of really huge workload and documentation that has grown at times. And it comes to the slowness of the army system and these limits.

And here the conclusion was: the limit should not be when it comes to proper training of soldiers.

It is clear that if the army is “entered” by a man, he will sign a contract. Everything is clear here. And if not?

Those who did not go to contract service, should not become in the future "cannon fodder", fattened, but untrained. We just can not afford it today. So, taking into account that the service life today is only one year, this year must and must be used to the full extent. Drive tanks and armored vehicles, shoot, dig, run, disguise.

Learn military in a real way.

And then what limits can we talk about?
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  1. andrewkor
    andrewkor 23 October 2017 07: 28 New
    +5
    Well, I don’t know how it is now, but in my time, under the Union, the border guards, marines burned ammunition unmeasured?
    1. svp67
      svp67 23 October 2017 08: 41 New
      12
      Quote: andrewkor
      Well, I don’t know how it is now, but in my time, under the Union, the border guards, marines burned ammunition unmeasured?

      Do not tell tales. Everything has its measure. And this measure is determined by orders. You can "burn" a cart of ammunition and never teach a soldier to shoot. Practice shows that when training in shooting, the main CORRECT METHOD, a soldier, before he makes the first shot should already be READY for him, and this is achieved by methodical training. Moreover, now there are already enough computer programs that help with this. Therefore, a wolens is not a wills, but there should be a LIMIT. All the same, there is a difference between the fact that the crew hit the target - the tank, with two shells, while using up b / c or normative - three shells.
      And if you really want to, shift the burden of responsibility from the commander’s shoulders to the fighter’s shoulders, to improve their combat skills, then you’re a fighter free of charge three shells, to fulfill the standard, he did it - GOODTHY, but didn’t manage, the next three, at your expense until you complete the exercise ...
      1. NIKNN
        NIKNN 23 October 2017 17: 02 New
        +3
        Quote: svp67
        And if you really want to shift the burden of responsibility from the shoulders of the commander to the shoulders of the fighter, to improve their combat skills, then here’s the free fighter for you, three shells, to fulfill the standard, I did it - YOUNG,

        Well yes. I somehow understand the verification that a certain outfit of forces and means to fulfill the set BZ. As a test, do not learn, the exercise fits the target with an infinite amount of ammunition ... request
      2. romanru4
        romanru4 24 October 2017 16: 45 New
        +1
        Shooting from small arms "According to the Charter" have nothing to do with shooting during hostilities.
      3. Bobrovsky
        Bobrovsky 24 October 2017 18: 49 New
        0
        A friend served at one time in Hungary, and so it was in their army. Managed to hit the target the first time - well done. If you failed, then shoot again. If you again missed, then continue to shoot at your own expense, pay until you learn.
    2. Vasya Vassin
      Vasya Vassin 23 October 2017 10: 00 New
      +4
      For two years of service in the explosives, I shot about two thousand rounds of ammunition. Shooting took place almost twice a month, regularly. The results of the company showed confident, tactical exercises were conducted. I talked with the guys who served at the same time as me, some people saw the machine only on oath. Not everything is clear in our world.
      1. CTABEP
        CTABEP 23 October 2017 12: 32 New
        +4
        That's right. For my service, I shot exactly 1,5 magazines for AK - 45 rounds. But on the other hand, I’m more than sure that if I were to shoot one and a half zinc, my current accuracy would hardly have changed much.
        1. Adequate
          Adequate 23 October 2017 20: 56 New
          +3
          I agree. The limit is needed. Even from the banal, so that the cartridges do not steal. (that's the lyrics). As for the training in our company, those who didn’t fit the shooting standard ran from the shooting range behind the Urals, and those who fit did go in the back. By the second year of service everyone went in the back :) You want to live and you will learn how to shoot. I was not in a battle, I don’t know, maybe there are situations in which bursts must be fired. But in most cases, you shoot from AK single, like a rifle
        2. Alex ros
          Alex ros 24 October 2017 07: 58 New
          +3
          Quote: CTABEP
          For my service, I shot exactly 1,5 magazines for AK - 45 rounds.

          Lucky. For two years of service, 12 patrons, three before the oath, and nine at the shooting range.
      2. tolancop
        tolancop 24 October 2017 00: 00 New
        0
        And I (in the mid-80s) SEVEN. It should have been 9, but it was the last and the complete set was not enough for me. This is in training. And in the troops in the next 1.5 years he didn’t shoot at all. The unit did not have its shooting range (they began to build), but they did not finish with me. Young people were "shot" every six months at the shooting range of neighbors. At the same time, ammunition was in stock, the limit was not shot for 10 years ...
      3. Gary zucker
        Gary zucker 24 October 2017 17: 43 New
        0
        I served in the rocket guard company. About once a month they gave us 3-5 shops for firing. And the rest can shoot at a half-store every six months. True, we usually resorted to the shooting range after a half-day march-throw, in the winter through the snowdrifts, in the summer in the OZK. And usually we were no longer very interested in where and how we get. But on the run to spring, all were dischargers.
      4. ando_bor
        ando_bor 25 October 2017 17: 39 New
        +2
        The son served an urgent year, in the year 12-13, in the mountain brigade, the comrade said, 3 thousand shots, not counting the idle, and from different weapons, mostly of course from his machine gun. His battalion:
    3. sibiryk
      sibiryk 24 October 2017 11: 00 New
      +1
      In my training camp, during the period from 2004 to 2007, during field exits, they shot “until I want to”, then, just as the new firing course was introduced in the troops, there were interesting exercises and enough ammunition was planned for them.
  2. Settlement Oparyshev
    Settlement Oparyshev 23 October 2017 08: 21 New
    +1
    We hope that the upper elite will read about the problem, report to the Supreme and they will do it right.
    1. okko077
      okko077 23 October 2017 23: 50 New
      +4
      Despite the fact that the problem is very important, but even more important ... The exercises generally pose cropped tasks ... Or rather, the main trick is not working out - detecting the enemy using technical means, determining the coordinates of the target and destroying it in real time, monitoring the position area using technical means and the destruction of the enemy without contact battle, the organization of interaction of detection tools and weapons in real time ....
      This is the main thing in modern warfare, no tanks, no clashes, no scouts in the first echelon .... Why, then, all the legends of the exercises already begin from the moment the enemy was discovered, how did they know where the enemy was, what means found it? This is the most important thing in modern warfare, but alas, this is neither in combat training nor in exercises ... What is our army preparing for? Again by the year 41?
      Syria shows a total inability to fight in a modern way ... Yes, the tasks are solved, but in old, outdated ways ....
  3. hohol95
    hohol95 23 October 2017 08: 42 New
    +4
    Dear authors!
    The limit on the consumption of ammunition in the army extends its roots in ...
    In one of the articles about the events on Lake Hassan (I used to read in the Rodina magazine), the phrase was quoted by a political officer of one of the rifle units in the Far East of the USSR - "You want to drop grenades (train your soldiers), and she will get this grant to the state in COW" (like that)!
    Indeed, since the days of the USSR, in some parts, ammunition and other ammunition were spent on wagons, while in other soldiers, MAXIMUM fired 30 shots for the entire service!
    1. d ^ Amir
      d ^ Amir 23 October 2017 09: 25 New
      +8
      30 shots ???? score???? go nuts !!!!!! in our shooting training ... were 9 (nine) rounds ... three single ... six bursts ..... once !!!!!!!! more firing was not planned for the whole service !!!! Signal Corps....
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 23 October 2017 09: 29 New
        +2
        So I wrote MAXIMUM! Someone had a full MINIMUM - 3 shots for the entire service !!!
      2. Lopatov
        Lopatov 23 October 2017 09: 43 New
        +3
        Quote: d ^ Amir
        9 (nine) rounds ... three single ... six bursts

        ?
        You confuse something. There are no such exercises. Minimum 12 rounds, 1st UKS.
        1. d ^ Amir
          d ^ Amir 23 October 2017 10: 14 New
          +5
          I don’t confuse anything !!!!!!!! two shootings in my whole life were ... since I still don’t remember that ... I agree that such things are difficult to forget ... and even the shooting took place not without adventure .... drove us to the line ... loaded automatic machines. ... the team "solitary fire" ... made a shot and further a massive refusal of Kalash to continue firing .... MASSIVE !!! those. everyone has!!!! the reason, of course, is not the technique ... or as the drivers say "it wasn’t the reel ...." .... when cleaning the machines they put a rag in .... well, where the gas pipe from the trunk starts .... and not removed ...
        2. CTABEP
          CTABEP 23 October 2017 12: 34 New
          +2
          Personally, he received 3 rounds before swearing an oath to shoot into a growth target. True, there is no such exercise as far as I know, but in many parts it is practiced - either for economy, or for what else.
        3. tolancop
          tolancop 24 October 2017 00: 02 New
          0
          Do not confuse. I don’t know now, but in the 80s the standard shooting was: 3 single shots, then 3 short bursts of 2 rounds. Total 9.
        4. Alex ros
          Alex ros 24 October 2017 08: 04 New
          0
          Quote: Spade
          You confuse something. There are no such exercises. Minimum 12 rounds, 1st UKS

          It doesn’t confuse, we also had three, single, and three short lines of two .91-93gg. Troops GO.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 24 October 2017 08: 20 New
            0
            Single from the machine?
            1. your1970
              your1970 29 October 2017 13: 58 New
              0
              was - 3 single and 3 short 2-3 rounds
      3. kudma
        kudma 23 October 2017 16: 43 New
        +1
        Also, for two years, only in the training, the floor of the horn and that's it.
      4. polpot
        polpot 23 October 2017 19: 33 New
        0
        A colleague, if the shooting was from AKS74U, you were not the only such signalman, but then you had to learn to use practically the entire range of weapons of a small platoon across the river
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 23 October 2017 12: 30 New
      +2
      Quote: hohol95
      In one of the articles about the events on Lake Hassan (I used to read in the Rodina magazine), the phrase was quoted by a political officer of one of the rifle units in the Far East of the USSR - "You want to drop grenades (train your soldiers), and she will get this grant to the state in COW" (like that)!

      How are we preparing the tank troops to the fire business? At present, even in 1941, it is planned to dispense 6 shells per year for one tank, and eight tasks must be completed. And besides, the inspections and commissions checking the troops check the firing training by shooting, which is spent on shells. Therefore, it turns out that there are no shells for crew training, and this is fraught with great danger.
      © Fedorenko Ya. N., Lieutenant General of Tank Forces, Head of the Main Armored Directorate of the Red Army. Materials of the meeting of senior management of the Red Army December 23-31, 1940
      And then the dances around motor resources then - this is generally a song.
      Given: the B-2 motor at the stand hardly gives out 100 engine hours. To train one T-34 crew, driving alone requires 25-26 motor hours (at least 6 hours of arrival for each crew member + exit from the park and return). The allowable consumption of the motor resources of the 1st category tank is 10-15 motor hours per year, taking into account the exercises. Spare engines for six months, the industry issued 85 pieces. Eighty-five pieces!
      So I had to pervert, conducting tactical exercises on the T-27 and killing new vehicles of the combat training park in the trash, transferring them from the 1st to the 3rd category in a couple of months.
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 23 October 2017 12: 40 New
        +2
        This is a parable ... old! Plus, I add that in some memoirs of tankers trained before 1941 it is said about firing at an enemy tank - NON-FLIGHT-MOVE-FALLING - hitting a target from the first shot DOES NOT COUNT!
        The war decreed otherwise! FIRST FILL - SURVIVED ...
        I wonder how things were with learning and limits until 1914?
        1. polpot
          polpot 23 October 2017 19: 35 New
          0
          Leskovsky "Lefty" remember it was always
          1. hohol95
            hohol95 23 October 2017 20: 46 New
            0
            In "Lefty" I remember gun trunks with brick cleaned! But I don’t recall phrases about limiting gunpowder and bullets for firing in this work!
            "- Tell the sovereign that the British do not clean their guns with a brick: even if they do not clean them with us, otherwise, God bless the war, they are not good for shooting."
    3. missuris
      missuris 23 October 2017 21: 15 New
      +1
      This store 1 is a pack of oil. or kg of chicken. 1 rgd5 is 100 grams of tnt and an iron ingot, the training will be much cheaper if you put 10 g of tnt there, and a molded plastic case.
    4. Bobrovsky
      Bobrovsky 24 October 2017 18: 57 New
      +1
      There are on the Internet the memoirs of Alexander Ilyich Shumilin, "Vanka company." Before the war, he graduated from the Supreme Council School in Moscow. For a year, the cadet relied 13 live ammunition. But they taught everyone to shoot properly. There is a completely normal training technique for shooting idle. You learn to hold the weapon correctly, and this is precisely the foundation of shooting, to aim correctly and smoothly handle the descent. The skill is periodically checked by combat shots.
      He wrote that in battle, people are in a very stressful state and almost all shoot in the direction of the enemy. Nobody is looking at the rear sight and sight.
  4. Monarchist
    Monarchist 23 October 2017 08: 56 New
    +1
    Quote: andrewkor
    Well, I don’t know how it is now, but in my time, under the Union, the border guards, marines burned ammunition unmeasured?

    There has always been a limit. My father served in the fifties and told: they were taking care of the cartridges and did not shoot the driver at all (my father was a driver), there were not even cartridges in his carbine. Perhaps in other parts it was different
  5. Lopatov
    Lopatov 23 October 2017 09: 30 New
    +6
    Only ammunition ... Because it lies on the surface. The authors did not understand.
    In real life, the main limit is the resource. By hours / kilometers and shots. Well, the limits on ammunition and fuel and lubricants are already secondary.
    I’m wondering if the resource spent on these “sudden” checks is written off? I'm afraid not. Which should make combat training difficult. For the program is “sharpened” precisely under these limits.

    How to deal with this? The answer appeared even during the USSR. Simulators
  6. Blue fox
    Blue fox 23 October 2017 09: 43 New
    +3
    Correctly raised the problem. There is really skew, one of my colleagues is currently a mine-blasting instructor, constantly complaining that in the classroom with fighters often he is mostly listened to by contract soldiers, while conscripts from the unit undergoing training are absent in the classroom, due to the limited number of combat training aids (specifically, detonating cords, which are issued at the rate of 1 per platoon and a limited number of TNT checkers, which are issued 1 x 200 for 2 people). As a result, only 10 people out of 30 can theoretically make a fire tube, place it in the right place and undermine the charge (for example, kill a tree), but in practice these operations have done even 5. I understand that this is not a typical example, one detonating cord in principle enough to show, however, in the SA and even in the worst period of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, in classes in this discipline, 100% of the personnel trained and practiced in the fire method of blasting and undermined drafts, if not 200 g, then at least 75 g.
    These training techniques are the basics of subversive work, but already at this stage we get a huge gap in the preparation of potential reservists who, in the classroom control class, just do not have time to complete all operations for a while and make such mistakes, which in reality follow torn fingers at least.
    And the fact that the conscripts get less than that goes to the training of those (mainly contract soldiers) who are preparing for demonstration classes before the inspectors or for new-fangled competitions now.
    I personally agree with the need for a limit, however, students should know what is written in the primer by default. And it turns out that, at the mention of plastite, gallant wars neigh and recall the childbearing organ from it, thanks to one lozenge, but there are no advantages and features of this explosive in comparison with a clone sword, which, however, is considered outdated and not worthy of attention since they did not see live its destructive power, do not know.
    1. Mih1974
      Mih1974 23 October 2017 20: 18 New
      +2
      It seems to me like a non-military solution to the problem - to increase the production of cheapened training ammunition. It’s not strong what the difference will be in the cost of a normal cartridge and a “training” one, but obviously there is something to “cut back” on. Especially with RPGs - there the consumable is only a propelling charge (screwed on) and the "gratan" itself can be a mass-size model. Also for tanks - instead of tungsten "scrap" and even more so uranium, you can cheap cast iron. Yes, I understand that motor resources and fuel will be spent, but it is simply necessary. Moreover, a complete solution would be to abandon the draft army. No, I am not for refusing the draft; I am for the fact that the "conscripts" would serve and study not in the Army. And in the training units, in which everything will be only educational and the task will only be in preparation for retraining in case of war. But the army should become a contract, and now they should already be taught in full and without limits.
      Also, at one time, DOSFA took upon itself the preparation, and this is the same decision. We need more accessible shooting galleries and circles for dancing, wherever they shoot for their money even before "loss of consciousness" good . Why is there a sediment cartridge for Kalash (?), Sweat has thrown all of 500 rubles and shoot at targets as much as you like.
      1. kirgiz58
        kirgiz58 23 October 2017 20: 25 New
        +1
        Quote: Mih1974
        Also for tanks - instead of tungsten "scrap" and even more so uranium, you can cheap cast iron.

        So this is all, a practical shot at the tanks imitates cumulative ballistics (which are harder to shoot, easier to calibrate).
        1. Mih1974
          Mih1974 23 October 2017 20: 26 New
          +1
          Well, do not go mad at them. Only at first, as I already said in the Army, to recruit only under a contract (long-term) that would be "in the horse feed". good
      2. Bobrovsky
        Bobrovsky 24 October 2017 19: 25 New
        +1
        In 1989, the cropped MSD was disbanded. By chance, I ended up at the RAV warehouse and became interested in one thing with a grooved barrel. He looked into the barrel itself, and there are strongly protruding rifling. What a thing, I ask. It turned out that this is a simulator of firing from a grenade launcher. A weakened tracer cartridge is inserted from the machine gun and the grenade launcher shoots at the target. Cheap, angry, and a hit or miss is immediately visible. And these things were lying around and lying around in warehouses, but they are not even visible in units. In the army, window dressing crushed everyone and the soldiers and fathers of the commanders. Painted borders, mowed grass, various beautiful stands are the true indicator of the condition of the unit.
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 24 October 2017 21: 29 New
          0
          They showed such "devices" in films about domestic weapons.
          And now they’re probably using such “stray” ones
  7. the47th
    the47th 23 October 2017 10: 12 New
    0
    In my opinion, they save and keep track of ammunition, not because they are not enough, but because there is a great temptation to poke a cartridge / grenade / shot for a souvenir.
    1. polpot
      polpot 23 October 2017 19: 40 New
      0
      In the Soviet army, too, cartridges and fuses were dragged into the pockets and the burst of packages is generally a separate song, it’s scary to remember after 30 years how many people could be crippled
  8. Serg65
    Serg65 23 October 2017 11: 15 New
    +2
    Quote: andrewkor
    Well, I don’t know how it is now, but in my time, under the Union, the border guards, marines burned ammunition unmeasured?

    ETOGES when such a time it was ???
  9. SMP
    SMP 23 October 2017 11: 18 New
    0
    From the last: "Limit pulled up." It becomes clear why during the test for the battery of mortars (8 units) allocated as much 32 charge. You can shoot it. No, if it is hypothetical to assume that the crews practiced in advance, in the FAP, at "their" training ground, then yes. Why hypothetically? Well, simply because the “firing” ground is kind of close by and you can control it.


    I honestly surprised ...... After all, it seems that it was not the 90s and Yeltsin was in power.

    Naturally, there shouldn’t be any lemits, some kind of nonsense, all the same, ammunition that goes out of its shelf life is constantly being accumulated in warehouses for 10-15 years and it will be disposed of.
    Or it’s time for someone to retire, or someone doesn’t take his post.
  10. Zweihander
    Zweihander 23 October 2017 11: 53 New
    +2
    Hmm, when I served about 4 years ago, ammunition was consumed in huge quantities, although the majority didn’t learn how to shoot normally, because they gave ammunition, and they didn’t learn how to shoot. Even I, with my poor eyesight, had better results in the company, most likely because I shot from both hunting and sporting weapons from childhood.
    1. CTABEP
      CTABEP 23 October 2017 12: 37 New
      +1
      So this business is known. In most parts, who knew how to shoot before the army — he learns, and who doesn’t — they don’t really show him any nifig. After all, it’s one thing to explain on the fingers (also normally not everyone can, by the way), but it’s quite another to apply this knowledge. When I have my own shotgun, and I don’t part with it for a month or two - this is one thing, and when I have 3 assault rifles to platoon, they quickly shot 12 rounds to the line and the next one is different. Here, with the same consumption of cartridges for training, the results will be very different.
    2. Dedall
      Dedall 23 October 2017 22: 09 New
      +2
      Hit the mark, dear! It’s immediately clear that they shot well. I’m still, although retired, I’m working in part, so when I ask about who shot from the replenishment before the army, the result is almost zero. Or rather, the Chechens who are now coming to the unit fired a lot. But then again, I looked at the training ground at how they shoot and takes sadness. It seems that they are only at weddings in the air scorching.
  11. Radikal
    Radikal 23 October 2017 12: 25 New
    0
    Learn military in a real way.
    And then what limits can we talk about?
    good soldier
  12. The comment was deleted.
  13. seacap
    seacap 23 October 2017 15: 28 New
    +2
    Well, I don’t know, this is the limit for the exercise, and for training firing, as you write in the application, you’ll get so much. Even in the 90s, we had 3 days at the airborne training ground per week, the fighter will shoot at the turn, until I’m sure that I will perform the CS exercise with full-time weapons, moreover, with the obligatory possibility and practical shooting from all weapons that are in service with the company and the regiment. There was no limit and restrictions on the ammunition of small arms, there was one problem, burn them, especially if half- companies in the outfit. Each ordinary should be able to confidently use all the small arms of the regiment, each sergeant plus has the skills of shooting with small-caliber artillery (ZU 23-2,2A42), the skills of the ATGM operator-gunner, each officer - all the armament of the regiment were also welcomed ( infantry, artillery weapons are limited), be able to command any unit in battle. As it was before, it is the same now. Who should be able to shoot, knows how, to whom it is not necessary, is familiar with and has skills if necessary.
    1. domokl
      domokl 23 October 2017 16: 11 New
      +1
      laughing
      Quote: seacap
      skills of the gunner-operator ATGM,

      Yeah .. I remember. Our instructors on the simulators with their feet "Bassoons" were aiming for a goal. Just to get them was not interested. looked funny shooting ATGM. And the rest, it was. Shot "from the heart." And then swore to clean the machines. The commander did not allow to shoot from someone else ...
  14. Garri_
    Garri_ 23 October 2017 15: 36 New
    +1
    You confuse something. There are no such exercises. Minimum 12 rounds, 1st UKS. [/ Quote]

    No, you confuse it ...
    1 shooting in training - 5 rounds: 3 points and 2 stages
    2 firing in part - 8 rounds: 3 points and 5 stages
  15. Alexey Korkin
    Alexey Korkin 23 October 2017 16: 21 New
    +1
    I completely agree with the author! S
    Continuous SHOW and nothing more.
    He served under the contract in 21 brigades continuous photo and video reports and no more, combat training NO (cannon fodder) staff turnover such that I stopped remembering the names and surnames there are those who come and go on the second day to quit (but it’s not so easy ) separate topic DEAD SOULS)
    And in fact, I came across such things that I didn’t even see in the 90s even on time.
    The box will show beautifully of course, but in fact, when I signed the contract and I saw it myself -WAS A SHOCK!
    Problems with uniforms, shoes, belts, it turns out that in our country there is no skin
  16. ventel
    ventel 23 October 2017 17: 38 New
    +1
    Yes, hurray patriots and couch experts such as the Department will quickly switch your brains on that this is the vile slander of liberal scribblers. How can you believe that the Russian army is stronger than anyone else, not that the Americans or NATO do not know how to fight.
    1. kirgiz58
      kirgiz58 23 October 2017 18: 16 New
      +2
      Quote: ventel
      Yes, hurray patriots and couch experts such as the Department will quickly switch your brains on that this is the vile slander of liberal scribblers. How can you believe that the Russian army is stronger than anyone else, not that the Americans or NATO do not know how to fight.

      Why connect? Most of the speakers above are sofa experts, including the authors of the article themselves. A fighter who fired only at KMB from a machine gun is discussing some limits. In order to say something, you must at least "see in the eye" The combat training program for motorized rifle (tank) units, Rifle (tank) weaponry courses, know the procedure for spending and replenishing material assets and writing them off. And you do not know what kind of “under-expenditure” of ammunition, motor resources and fuels and lubricants are inserted deeper than over-expenditure. Overspending can always be explained to the inspector (by the same unscheduled inspections, although any commission brings with it an order for certain consumption rates in addition to those established), but you can’t explain the under expenditure in any way. belay
      1. ventel
        ventel 23 October 2017 19: 03 New
        0
        Well, what if I only shot two times in the Soviet army using 29 rounds of ammunition and in the Ukrainian army where for the first time I fired the Soviet norm at the training ground twice and the bullets were given out to everyone who served and who saw the machine gun for the first time. Now tell me which army completed the combat training program in the one where I was given one horn in two years or in the one where I shot two horns in one day. You may have served as a lieutenant abroad, as you write. Sorry, but to remove the shavings for "under expenditure" I didn’t hear this, although for six months I was the acting platoon commander.
        1. kirgiz58
          kirgiz58 23 October 2017 19: 19 New
          +4
          Quote: ventel
          Sorry, but to remove the shavings for "under expenditure" I didn’t hear this, although for six months I was the acting platoon commander.

          That's why I said that couch experts ALREADY spoke. In order to hear about "under expenditure" you need to be at least the chief of the corresponding regiment service (and only hear this). And they get for it starting with the regiment commander and above.
          And you didn’t execute the program anywhere, as it is determined not by a “shot horn,” but by performing the corresponding exercise, the number of which you cannot indicate. And I did not start the service as a “lieutenant,” but as a lieutenant as a commander of a tank platoon, and my foreign mission was in the DRA, then the Far Eastern Military District in deployed divisions. And it's not my fault if you had to serve in the brutal troops, where even machine guns are not issued. laughing
          1. ventel
            ventel 23 October 2017 20: 01 New
            0
            Well, how do I know for a simple sergeant that as a major or a polkan the chips are removed the result was still one outfit, a sports town, maintenance of equipment, drill and most importantly so that bad thoughts do not clean the charters so that I knew very well. And about the program in the Ukrainian army I was taught to shoot from any position, both independently and in a pair, to shoot at the skit using binocular vision for offset.
            1. kirgiz58
              kirgiz58 23 October 2017 20: 50 New
              +1
              Quote: ventel
              And as for the program in the Ukrainian army, I was taught to shoot from any position, either alone or in a pair, to shoot at a wagon using binocular vision for the set-off.

              And it all took "two horns"? laughing I believe her! Gunpowder itself said that the Ukrainian army is the strongest in Europe and the second after the United States in the world. laughing laughing laughing
              1. ventel
                ventel 23 October 2017 21: 13 New
                0
                You carefully read what I wrote or you need to report how many horns I shot by performing each exercise.
      2. The comment was deleted.
        1. kirgiz58
          kirgiz58 23 October 2017 20: 37 New
          +1
          Quote: krot_tank
          And reprimand at best.

          Right! And then if the chairman of the commission is a darling. smile And then there is “official miss” and a party line planer: the finale is a belt for the nail. Well, the “necessary unit at the end of the month” is also calculated at times if you wish - you need to reduce a lot of paper in order to slip the soap (timetables, waybills, fuel and lubricant refueling sheets, handouts from ammunition points, instruction sheets on safety requirements, statements of firing results and this is not all). It’s easier to complete the plan. laughing
      3. your1970
        your1970 29 October 2017 14: 07 New
        0
        Quote: kirgiz58
        you can’t explain the under expenditure
        - they are called "surpluses created for embezzlement" - had displeasure to be a member of the inventory commission of the RAB service for 4 years
  17. krot_tank
    krot_tank 23 October 2017 19: 47 New
    +3
    Limit mathematical concept.
    The practical limit is preceded by a course of theoretical studies and the actual number of drugs in the classroom:
    In 2017, I brought 6 cadets of doctors at the RVDKU to competitions in firing from the PM.
    Each shot 10 times for 36 and 10 for 3. It seems a little, but against the background of the infantry is very small. But in the individual classification, medicine made pechtura. In the group event, 3rd place - only Mos VOKU and RVDKU passed us. This is due to the fact that in front of the gun they virtually worked out the theory and practice of aiming on the iron in the literal sense of the word. No medical practitioners used the standard shooting course.
    The opposite example of the troops unit 1/3 is constantly on duty. The limit is such that the unit per month, 2 days at the shooting range, simply burns the BP just to work out the resource before the combat training department. As a result, the final check is hardly satisfactory.
    We conclude that if you approach a fighter thoughtfully and almost individually, you can get higher than excellent results.
    Even if a BP carriage - without methods and approach you will teach horseradish to shoot.
  18. myobius59
    myobius59 23 October 2017 20: 12 New
    0
    Quote: andrewkor
    Well, I don’t know how it is now, but in my time, under the Union, the border guards, marines burned ammunition unmeasured?

    Do not here "la-la". He served in the border troops, 1977-1979. For more than a year, he was a castle platoon of a platoon providing a maneuvering group, and at the training center he often issued cartridges. They shot of course, but not to say that often. And the machine gun (we just had a rearmament on the AK-74) was given 12-18 rounds of ammunition, if the memory serves, I don’t remember the machine guns, SVD, RPGs, and BMP-BTRs. But not a lot. .
    For several years he "worked" in the Ministry of Internal Affairs. There are generally 3-4 times a year of shooting, 6 rounds each. 3-trial, 3-test ..
    1. Cadet
      Cadet 23 October 2017 20: 39 New
      0
      I heard at the training ground the words of a captain from another military unit - why should soldiers and sergeants shoot if they find themselves in the war and learn)))). I know one art. sergeant, served two years in the Airborne Forces, five jumps, nine rounds of ammunition shot at the firing range, another friend served in the communications regiment, shot twice or once a week, including night firing. Colleagues, retired officers (colonels,) cannot even name the main details of the PM, but they begin to wave the calendar length of service if that))))), though there are only five of them and it pleases))). Ammunition consumption and the level of firing depends on the unit commander, from personal experience, because many are afraid of various emergency situations. We have one shot when firing from the PM, pulling the trigger did not hear the shot and decided to look into the barrel and get an answer - WHY? . The firing manager managed to intercept his hand.
      1. Bobrovsky
        Bobrovsky 24 October 2017 19: 40 New
        0
        A co-worker once served as a navigator in Tartu, in the Dudaev’s division. Told the case. In their squadron, according to the plan, there were pistol exercises. The lieutenant colonel, their commander, went to the duty officer on the part and asked for a gun, he was too lazy to receive it. He gave. Everyone is sitting at the tables, and he is near the board. Comrades, he says, it’s Makarov’s pistol, it’s built that way. He told the device further - to produce a shot, it is necessary to pull the shutter off and release it, then press the shutter release. He kept the gun pointing up. Clicked a deafening shot. Everyone was stupefied, and he turned his head in the direction of his raised hand and looked in surprise at the gun, with what fright this thing fell out. Then he slowly lowered his hand with the pistol down and pressed again. Swam again, it’s good that I didn’t hit my leg. He was puzzled even more, raised the gun up and pressed again. Shot. He threw the gun to the floor, cursed obscenely and said that he would not conduct classes on this shit anymore, everyone was marching from the class. It’s good that I didn’t kill anyone by accident.
        1. Cadet
          Cadet 25 October 2017 04: 41 New
          0
          There was an almost similar case, there was only one shot at the ceiling, and before that there was so much pathos with the ability to remove the fuse with three fingers, take the bolt to the back position and fire the trigger with the three fingers, so the shot happened.
  19. myobius59
    myobius59 23 October 2017 20: 34 New
    +1
    Quote: andrewkor
    Well, I don’t know how it is now, but in my time, under the Union, the border guards, marines burned ammunition unmeasured?

    Do not "la la". He served in the Border Troops 1977-1979. About a year was the platoon’s lock of a platoon providing a maneuverable group, and at the training center he often issued cartridges. Shot. Of course, but I will not say that often. And on the machine (they just re-equipped on the AK-74, they shot themselves), issued from 9 to 18 rounds for firing. For machine guns, SVD,, RPGs, and other BMP-BTRs I no longer remember, but also not a lot. After firing on "saved" ammunition, officers liked to hang out. Several shops were planted. .
    For several years he "worked" in the Ministry of Internal Affairs. There, firing from the PM was 3-4 times a year for 6 rounds. 3-test, 3-test.
  20. Glory1974
    Glory1974 23 October 2017 21: 34 New
    0
    The correct article. This problem has probably been in the army since its foundation. If there is money in the state, the limit is increased. no money - limit is reduced. From the end of the 80 to the present, there were several such slides. Therefore, someone fired "unmeasured", but mostly "one horn" for the entire service.
    Under these limits and combat training programs are cut, and shooting courses. This is the trouble. How to solve it there are options: both shooting with a separate barrel, and simulators. But the most important thing, as many wrote here: is the methodology of combat training. And we have this technique at the level of the beginning of the 90's, when the collapse went and young lieutenants began to serve, who now became generals, but did not see another.
    In general, you give science to the troops.
  21. Dedall
    Dedall 23 October 2017 22: 35 New
    +1
    Everything is sad in this world, gentlemen! And I have already written more than once what to say about combat training in modern troops, as a system for preparing a soldier for combat operations, then it does not exist. There are half-educated lieutenants who are trying to portray something they saw in their military bursa. And for some reason, they perceive the shooting as the top of combat training. And the famous "flash on the left" is perceived only as a mockery of a military man. But they didn’t even hear about the “by cars” command and did not suspect that this should be followed by the development of standards for loading into the car. Or vice versa on command "to battle". there is even a standard for loading the wounded into an ambulance. And if all of them trained, then after the last time there would be no desire to smoke anasha and other things. The soldier would just fall on the bed and the others would be up to rise.
    It all starts with the command, and when I somehow asked about the availability of private combat training plans for the services, it turned out that no one had ever heard of such a thing. Moreover, many of their majors did not know the number of types of combat training. And the topic of military medical training closest to me is reduced to a five-minute express-display of posters before the start of the training period. So why be surprised when a soldier, accidentally shooting a leg of his colleague, does not put a tourniquet on him to stop the bleeding, but runs to the first-aid post and calls the doctor to do it. And so it is everywhere, gentlemen.
    1. ventel
      ventel 23 October 2017 23: 15 New
      0
      Yes, this was still practiced in the SA. We had an unfortunate event. After the lieutenant colonel, medical services called for him to give a lecture to us for an hour, though he didn’t show that we needed to make posters. I had to test the training in the Ukrainian army as a wounded soldier which co-workers practiced as a tourniquet to impose, what to do with pneumotorex as a tire to impose and more.
  22. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 23 October 2017 23: 46 New
    0
    Many letters and little use. In short, it was impossible to communicate the idea that there is a global window dressing, and there is a specific military training of the troops, for which the expenditure of the BC is limited? Or are the authors paid for the number of lines?
  23. seacap
    seacap 24 October 2017 16: 15 New
    0
    Quote: ventel
    Well, yes, what if I only shot two times in the Soviet army after spending 29 rounds

    So, by the type of troops and military specialty, you did not need sniper skills, if there is no such need, then there is no need to spend money. So, for example, in the air defense, 1-3 training sessions were held during the training period, there is no need anymore, the pvoshnik has other weapons and other requirements for it.
  24. seacap
    seacap 24 October 2017 16: 33 New
    0
    Quote: ventel
    Ukrainian army taught me to shoot from any position

    Rambo, child snotty crying, damn it, just as I look at the peasants of miners and hard workers, it seems that they learned better in the Red Army what the cool specialists from Langley were the valiant APU. I remember that they cooked Georgians, only we, in due time, their students could not be caught and caught in order to look at least how cool they were.
    1. ventel
      ventel 24 October 2017 20: 32 New
      0
      You’re a child. You better remember Grozny 94 how many guys you put, and after all commanded and prepared the guys like you, we are the strongest, and when we washed our faces with blood, we remembered that a soldier should be taught to fight and not to learn to charter and work with a broom. You watch TV and there you they can just tell any fairy tale, and you believe, because you believed that the miners brought tanks, howitzers, MLRS and ammunition from the mines. I also remember that on the second day the general who led the operation wounded in Moscow.
  25. Sedoy
    Sedoy 25 October 2017 13: 10 New
    +1
    in the seventies of the last century, we did not spare cartridges ...
    shots for the BMP were given through time, it's true
    pturs generally gave 8 pieces to two companies of operators in training, I never saw them in the troops even once - they were standing then they say like one Lada, at that time you can believe it ...

    as for today's spending on the so-called "reserve" - ​​it is 100% of the headstock in the void ...
    in a year you can never make a soldier, especially on modern technology ...
    in my time, they became a real squad leader only after a year and a half of service and regular exercises (moreover, 2 times a year at the army level), not to mention the mandatory 2 shooting ranges per week ...
    those. confidently independently to command and even replace the platoon could only be six months from two years of service ...
    the same thing applied to specialists somehow as a mechanic and operator-gunner ..
    somehow we had exercises in the mountains-in the forests (Transcaucasia), so the mechanics of the grandfathers drove along the donkey paths for the first time, were shocked by adrenaline ...
    refused to fall trees on the way - until you give a flag to the headset ... :)

    so, in a year you cook shit, not warriors ...
  26. Rock616
    Rock616 25 October 2017 17: 49 New
    0
    I largely agree with the author, but how are you going to provide all this if the limit is not indicated (highlighted)? request
  27. your1970
    your1970 29 October 2017 14: 00 New
    +1
    Quote: hohol95
    some memoirs of tankers trained before 1941 say about shooting at an enemy tank - NON-FLY-MOVE-HIT — hit on the target from the first shot DOES NOT COUNT!
    - proof if not difficult about not counting
  28. Massik
    Massik 12 February 2018 13: 49 New
    +1
    Quite normal limits. If you teach by instruction with the elaboration of all stages, only a completely cross-eyed one will miss. We have so far "idle" the trunk does not stop twitching, in general they did not let them shoot. You can’t run up on the parapet in 7 seconds and take the target on the sight, go my plates in the dining room, next time you will learn. They burned 15 rounds per person for at least two weeks. What is the use of spending shots if the trained grenade launcher cannot hold more than half a minute on the shoulder.
    All this has been painted and tested for a long time, but not everywhere is it being properly implemented.
  29. Jerk
    Jerk 15 March 2018 13: 45 New
    0
    This is the point. But here the problem is even deeper - the current urgency - generally NVP. Trite to shoot in a year - you will not teach. It’s just that even safety precautions with weapons in the gut will not have time to grow in - it will not have time in a trite.
    The term now is NVP. And from it only they are recruiting an army, conscripts are NOT an army.
    In general, the above is correctly written - at first they teach idle. Moreover, EVERYWHERE, even shooters-athletes, on whom they did not spare ammunition in principle, then we each burned in one training session, how many companies would not burn during the week in exercises))) Exaggerated, of course ... repeat