Military Review

Kurdistan - the edge "beyond the mountains of grief"

68
Kurdistan - the edge "beyond the mountains of grief"No, probably, on the land of another people from all national ethnic groups with such a tragic fate as the Kurds. This is perhaps the only people who failed to achieve in the twentieth century neither the status of statehood, nor even the right to cultural self-determination.


Kurds can be considered one of the most ancient peoples in the Middle East. But unlike Armenians, Assyrians (Aisors) or Jews (Jews), the Kurds were not lucky. Only in antiquity did the Persian-Kurdish state Media exist between the Persian Gulf and the Kurdish Highlands. Even today, Armenians and Kurds coexist in these lands, despite the genocide and other tragedies of the 20th century.

On one of the peaks of the Kurdish ridge is the famous Mount Ararat, where after the Flood the Noah's Ark landed. Experts believe that the Kurdish people consists of several subethnos, differing in language, culture and religion. By origin, they are more Iranians than Arabs or Turks. In total, there are more than 40 million in the world. In Turkey there are more than 15 million. There, the Kurds constitute the second largest ethnic group for which the Turkish authorities do not recognize their national rights.

Under the terms of the Treaty of Sevres and Lausanne imposed on Turkey, after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the Kurds were granted the right to national autonomy. But promises remain promises. I had to wait for this almost 100 years. During this time, Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran managed to divide Kurdistan among themselves. Quasi-state education in the 21st century was managed to be acquired only in Iraqi Kurdistan. Many people know the lines from Mayakovsky's “Left March” “There is grief beyond the mountains - there is no end to the sunny land”. I have always associated them with the sunny country of the Kurds.

On the map of the Soviet Union, born in 1922, appeared such autonomy as “Red Kurdistan”. At the same time, in 1920, the Ararat Kurdish Republic existed in Turkish Kurdistan for three years. And in 1945, in Iran there was an attempt to proclaim the Mekhabad Republic, which existed for less than a year - from January 22 to December 16, 1946.

Among the Kurds, the idea of ​​creating an independent state has always been popular in all the territories inhabited by Kurds - in Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran. Ethnic-religious issues introduce additional difficulties in solving this problem. Some of the Kurds are Sunni and Shiite, and some preach Islam-Alevism, Yezidism and Christianity. Many Kurds withdrew from religion, adhering to the left, pro-communist views. As “infidels,” the local authorities constantly harassed and even repressed them.

IRANIAN REPRESSIONS

History The Kurdish issue has much in common with the other longest (Palestinian) conflict in the Middle East. But the Kurdish problem has broader temporal and spatial dimensions. The participants of various international scientific forums and conferences constantly reminded about this. Kurdistan becomes not so much geographical as geopolitical "apple of discord."

I also had to participate in one of the forums held at the Kurdish Parliament meeting in Oslo in 1997. At a later-organized conference, the Russian Society of Solidarity and Cooperation of the Peoples of Asia and Africa (ROSSNAA) invited Ali Kazi, the son of the executed first president of the Kurdish Meghabad Republic, Kazi Mohammed, to Moscow. Growing up without a father, Ali Kazi became a famous Kurdish scholar and public figure. He is a descendant of the first and last president of the Makhabad Republic hanged in 1947. This gave him the right to call himself the same age as the Kurdish Republic in Iran.

His father, Kazi Mohammed, could leave Mekhabad following the Soviet troops leaving Iran at that time. Incidentally, Mustafa Barzani, the founder of the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) in Iraq, did the same (in the 1946, he hurried to the aid of Mehabad from neighboring Iraq). Barzani emigrated to the Soviet Union, feeling responsible for the life of the fighters who came with him with their wives and children. Kazi Mohammed could not do that.

In the then proclaimed Iranian Azerbaijan with its capital in Tabriz, more than 30 thousand Azerbaijanis perished. Kazi did not want the Kurds to suffer the same fate. “My father,” said Ali, “having assumed all responsibility, saved thousands of his countrymen from death. The captain can not leave the sinking ship with passengers. By sacrificing himself and his relatives, his father was able to avoid such great sacrifices. ”

At that conference, much was said about the close connection between the fate of the Kurds and the peoples of the Caucasus. Therefore, I called my report at the on-site session of the “Kurdish Parliament” in Oslo: “Russia and Kurdistan are twinned with fate”. The report recalled that the beginning of the Cold War coincided with the birth of the Mekhabad Republic in Iran.

This was discussed in the preface to the collection “Kurds in the flame of war”, which I wrote. The collection includes fragments from the fundamental work of the well-known Russian Kurdish scientist Vladimir Nikitin, who lived in France, “Kurds”. The Russian scientist explained the essence of the Kurdish issue by the absence of the Kurdish state, the disunity of the Kurdish people themselves and last but not least by the competitive struggle of the great powers for their natural, primarily oil and water wealth. Something similar can happen again now, after the holding of a referendum in Iraq on the establishment of a Kurdish state.

LEFT TENDER

Kurds lived a lot before the revolution and on the territory of the Russian Empire. Most of them were in the Caucasus. The Kurds and Armenians, who suffered most during the First World War (and in the following years) from the genocidal policy pursued by Ottoman and Kemalist Turkey, could be (and later became) allies in the struggle against the common enemy, including the Caliphates banned in Russia, the terrorist organization LIH.

Both in Turkey and in Iraq and Syria, the rights of the Kurds were also limited even in the use of their native language. Not surprisingly, the prohibitions on the lifestyle of the Kurds met with a response. This largely explains the phenomenon of the leftism of the Kurds.

In 1960-ies in Turkey, on the basis of the banned Communist Party, the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) was created. After the arrest of its leader Abdullah Ocalan, she was declared terrorist. Before that, the underground Turkish Communist Party was half Kurdish. The Turkish poet Nazim Hikmet also told me about this.

The most numerous communist parties in Syria and Iraq in the Arab world were also led by the Kurds Khaled Bagdash and Mohammed Aziz. Kurd Jalal Talabani was elected the first president after the Iraq war. He was also the creator of the Democratic Union of Kurdistan (DSK), who previously competed with the KDP Mustafa Barzani. Then both parties collaborated in the composition of the general parliament of Kurdistan. But Mustafa’s son Masud Barzani headed the Kurdish autonomous region, and his nephew Nachirvan Barzani led the autonomy government. The autonomy authorities managed to temporarily establish business contacts not only with Turkey, but also with some other, including European, states. This was the case before the emergence in Iraq and Syria of the self-proclaimed “Islamic State” (ISIS, banned in Russia). First of all, it hastened to seize the oil fields of Iraq and Syria (in the area of ​​Mosul and Deir-ez-Zor).

Recall Abdullah Ocalan was sentenced to death in Turkey in 1999 year. The foreign press explained at that time the decision taken by the Kurds to temporarily cease the struggle with the desire to save the life of their leader. This may have influenced the decision of the Turkish authorities to replace the death sentence with life imprisonment. In a defensive speech for the European Court of Human Rights, prepared in imprisonment, Ocalan tried to justify the willingness of Turkish Kurds to abandon the separatist goal of the struggle. He called on four states - Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran to solve the Kurdish problem by creating a Democratic Federation of the Middle East, within whose borders the Kurds agreed to be granted the status of self-governing autonomy.

Turkey has always opposed the recognition of the Kurdish right to national self-determination. In contrast to the Iraqi Kurds, from time to time seeking internal autonomy, the Kurds in Turkey were actually excluded from the number of local national minorities. Ankara has always adhered to the “National Vow” declared by Ataturk in 1920 year in the national question, which contained the conditions of peace with the allies and the requirement of complete independence of Turkey. The Kurds were called “mountain Turks” in it. Pan-Turkism was already a special hybrid of religion and Islamism in Turkey.

It is believed that during the armed struggle of the Kurds, at least a million were killed at the hands of punishers in 1920 and 1930 in the Kurdistan Region alone. Given the total losses in the two world wars, the total population of the Kurdish population could have exceeded more than 1960 million people in the 40-s. I remember this figure well from a letter to Nikita Khrushchev from Mustafa Barzani, who in 1963 was forwarded by me through Alexey Adjubei to Moscow. The letter was written by hand in Russian with many errors and funny expressions. For example, instead of "Russia is my second fatherland," it was written: "Russia is my second father."

The Kurdish member of the Syrian parliament, Fuad Kadri, who smuggled this message from Iraq to Damascus, smiled and then explained to me the hidden meaning of these words. Somewhere in the village near Ryazan, Barzani, it turns out, had a daughter from a Russian woman. Mustafa Barzani, naturally, through his fatherhood, felt a close relationship with Russia, as his second homeland ...

The division of Kurdistan's land among several states created extremely unfavorable conditions for the realization of the right to self-determination. Nevertheless, the Kurds were able to maintain their mentality, heightened national identity, rich culture and ancient traditions.

In recent years, Turkey has sought in various ways to reduce the urgency of the Kurdish problem, preventing the emergence of independent Kurdish entities both in Turkey itself and in neighboring countries. Ankara, in agreement with the leadership of Iran, Iraq and Syria, has repeatedly taken joint military, political and diplomatic steps against the Kurds living abroad. Already in the 1980-ies between Turkey and Iraq, an agreement was reached on granting the Turkish armed forces the right to pursue Kurdish rebels in Iraqi territory to a depth of 10 – 15 km from the border. But this was not all. The Turkish army has repeatedly and previously violated the Iraqi border, attacking Kurdish settlements, strongholds in northern Iraq, going deeper into 40 and more than a kilometer. So, even before the introduction of Turkish troops in the area of ​​Mosul, there were plenty of such precedents.

After the Iraqi Kurds in 1991, using the “Desert Storm” operation, rebelled against Baghdad, the Turkish authorities decided to extend the state of emergency to much of East and Southeast Anatolia.

HARD ACTIONS OF ANKARA

Ocalan at one time proposed the idea of ​​convening a regional Kurdish peace conference with the participation of representatives of Kurdistan, the government of Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria. He suggested inviting international observers. But Öcalan’s appeals did not find a response from either the Turkish authorities or other radical Islamist organizations.

The November 2009 2002 year after the Pan-Turkic Justice and Development Party (AKP), which won the Turkish elections in Turkey, the government of Recep Erdogan found itself in a very difficult situation. At first, it promised George Bush to support the American “Desert Storm” military operation in Iraq, but did not specify whether Ankara was ready to help solve the Kurdish problem.

From time to time, a ceasefire ensued between the central authorities and Kurdish militants. But the attacks in Ankara later served as a pretext for intensifying hostilities. Mass purges were carried out in Kurdish settlements - with the killing of civilians and the arrest of any suspected of involvement in the Kurdish movement. In response, the Kurdish troops resumed attacks against the Turkish security forces, whose victims were about two hundred police and military personnel. It came to the point that the Turkish aviation and artillery attacked the positions of the PKK and self-defense units in Syrian Kurdistan. In mid-January 2016, six Turkish fighters launched airstrikes on their positions in northern Iraq. In Syria, after an incident with a Russian aircraft shot down, Moscow deployed S-400 anti-aircraft missile systems, which is why the Turks could no longer bombard the Kurdish militia.

NEW FRONT OF FIGHT

In the ethno-geographical space of historical Kurdistan, the increasing role of the geo-economic and strategic components of a very complex Middle Eastern conflict node was clearly traced. This created a threat to the state integrity of not only Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, but also Turkey itself.

The geopolitical history of present-day Kurdistan is intertwined with the struggle of coalitions fighting not only against international terrorism in the form of ISIS or Dzhebkhat al-Nusra (both organizations are banned in the Russian Federation), but also among themselves.

In 2003, the son of Mustafa Barzani, Masud, visited Moscow. He discussed the development of business and cultural relations. Answering the question of what the Kurdish autonomous region in Iraq would officially become, Masood resorted to the Kurdish proverb: “There are five fingers on one hand, but the pain in each of them is one.” We decided that this hinted at the proposal of Abdullah Ocalan to create in the future in Iraq, Turkey, Iran and Syria a five-subject Federation consisting of the existing four states and a new republic of “Free Kurdistan” with a mixed population (Arabs, Kurds, Turkomans and others). Whether they all get along with each other is a big question!

Islamic groups of ISIL (as well as Junoud al-Islam, Al-Qaida of Iraq, Dzhebhat al-Nusra and other terrorist organizations banned in the Russian Federation) have always sought to paralyze the work of the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP), the Kurdistan Patriotic Union (PUK ) and the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) up to the physical elimination of their leaders.

In the conditions of the civil war in Syria, the local Kurds could not stand aside. At first they distanced themselves from the regime of Bashar al-Assad and from the opposition forces. Numerous parties and groups operating in the Kurdish areas soon merged into the Supreme Kurdish Council. Self-defense units managed to take control of a significant part of the Syrian-Turkish border.

RUSSIAN INTEREST

In my opinion (as one of the members of the Society for Solidarity and Cooperation with the Kurdish People), it’s time to resume all-round cooperation, including military, with Kurdish forces. This would enable interaction with our groups of GRU special forces, which in one way or another are already involved in Syria. The same opinion is shared by the director of the Center for the Study of the Countries of the Middle East and Central Asia, Semyon Bagdasarov.

As for the Kurds themselves, they have repeatedly expressed a desire to continue our previous cooperation. Otherwise, the Kurds can finally reorient themselves to America and Israel.

Only about 3 million Kurds live near the border with Turkey in Syria. As our Syrian friend Salman Salame told me, already in the first year of the crisis, almost all Kurds from Damascus and other regions of Syria moved there. The “National Self-Defense Forces” of the Kurdish Autonomy of Syria (UAN) numbered at least 60 thousand fighters. UAN units took key positions near the Turkish border, including the cities of Kobani, Hasake and Tel-Abyad. Syrian Kurds have their own detachments - the Peshmerga, women's battalions and brigades in which teenage girls are fighting.

The CAS units form the basis of the Kurdish Democratic Union Party (PDS) created. It interacts with the troops of the Syrian Democratic Army (ATS) and the Syrian Free Army (SSA). These formations (together with the Turkish PKK and the Peshmerga troops in Iraqi Kurdistan), unfortunately, Ankara considers as its enemies, although the United States, on the contrary, is trying to interact with them. This partly explains the aggravation of relations not only between the Kurds themselves, but also between Ankara and Washington.

It is possible that Turkey actually wanted to participate in the creation of one or another caliphate under its auspices in order to oppose the Kurds, Alawites and Shiites in neighboring Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and in Eastern Turkey.

It can be assumed that Bashar Asad, giving evasive answers to journalists' questions about solving the Kurdish problem, hoped to use it in the future as a bargaining chip in the war with the rebels and the opposition. To this end, he may have allowed the Kurds to create popular squads in the north of Syria, which complement the official law enforcement agencies. The statement of the Kurdish leaders about their consent to internal autonomy without secession from Syria also speaks in favor of this option. True, the leadership of Syria does not currently have sufficient resources to simultaneously resist Kurdish separatism and fight the rebels.

Representatives of the Kurdish parties held a meeting in Erbil in June 2016, where they called for the creation of a Kurdish federal state (KFG). By July 2017, the Kurds controlled virtually all of the areas they challenged Baghdad and Damascus in power. Not allowing the Caliphate to move north and east, the Kurds paid with their blood for the liberation of Mosul and Aleppo. They are not going to leave their lands.

Political observers believe that the proclamation of any form of the Kurdish state in these circumstances can not arrange even Washington. If the Kurds have another national autonomy in Syria, this will be a response to the creation of "buffer zones", which are created by Ankara to invade the border areas of Syria.

WILL HAVE TO CHOOSE

It may also happen that the Kurdish state recognizes only Israel (not by chance after the referendum, the residents of Erbil were jubilant, waving the flags of Kurdistan and Israel). Even the President of Turkey pointed to the duality of the situation in northern Iraq. Nevertheless, some analysts admit that the issue of the formation of the Kurdish state may again become aggravated after the defeat of the Caliphate, for example, in northern Syria. Sooner or later, the international community will have to choose between respecting and protecting the integrity of existing states and the right of nations to self-determination. It is difficult to say whether the example of Kosovo will repeat in the Middle East or the Kurds will go the other way ...

With all the intricacies of the current situation, Turkey may lose much more than Syria. In addition, Ankara may add not only a problem region in neighboring Iraq, but also in northern Syria and eastern Turkey. Over time, this could be an example for the Kurds in Iran.

By the way, it was during the “Storm in the Desert” war that the Kurds in Iraq managed to achieve real recognition of their autonomy by Baghdad.

The September 25 2017 referendum on creating a Kurdish state (for the first time in history!) With undetermined borders (especially in the Kirkuk region) can completely change the political map of the entire Middle East. The world order in this region is still very far away. Especially, if we consider the frozen Arab-Israeli conflict with the unsolved problem of Palestine, the war of terror-antiterror that was not completed there (not only with ISIS). In such circumstances, the appearance in Iraq on the border with Turkey, Iran and Syria of the Kurdish state that they do not recognize clashes with the interests of Israel and the United States. Their support in the northern Syria of the opponents of the Assad regime (not only in the battles for Deir ez-Zor, but also on the other side of the Euphrates), in particular, the Syrian Democratic Army (SDA), is not accidental.

The new epic can be comparable to the protracted war in Afghanistan, in the Middle and Near East. Neither the Pashtunistan state in AFPAK (the region of Afghanistan-Pakistan with the Pashtun population is called this way), nor the Palestinian state in the Holy Land, nor Baluchistan or Kurdistan in Iran.

In general, the situation in the Greater Middle East resembles a well-known Russian proverb: “They pumped, swung (in this case, oil. - L.I.) and started again” ...
Author:
Originator:
http://nvo.ng.ru/gpolit/2017-10-20/8_970_kurdistan.html
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  1. Teberii
    Teberii 23 October 2017 05: 34 New
    +2
    The Americans need the Kurds, they can be used against Iran, Turkey, Syria. Confirmation of this ended with nothing Iraqi operation.
    1. To be or not to be
      To be or not to be 23 October 2017 11: 00 New
      +3
      What you sow is coming down ..
      .. "the deputy of the Turkish parliament from the Kurdish party" Peace and Democracy "says that" the Kurds played a significant role in the Armenian Genocide in 1915 in the Ottoman Empire. "
    2. xetai9977
      xetai9977 23 October 2017 11: 45 New
      +7
      Kurds are not a single people. They do not have a single language, a single alphabet, or even a single religion. Therefore, they did not succeed in creating a national state. Today, the reality is that no one will let them create their own state, since this would mean cutting at least 4 states on a living basis. And with separatism everywhere and everywhere they speak the language of weapons.
    3. eng
      eng 23 October 2017 21: 18 New
      +1
      the birth rate of the Kurds is three times higher than that of the Turks and Iranians, so in ten years they will be bigger than the Turks and already bigger than the Persians and they will have a state since all countries of the West are interested in this. Israel and Russia, too, except for their neighbors who chopped off their lands and really do not want them to return the Kurds Muslims are Sunni Shiites and 5 percent Yezidis but they are absolutely secular and tolerant never a single Kurd has blown up neighboring countries enemies for the sake of the faith of jihad, but it is religiously like fighting Turkish occupiers by Iranians
  2. Settlement Oparyshev
    Settlement Oparyshev 23 October 2017 05: 48 New
    +3
    I have nothing against the Kurds. But they repeat the mistakes of those peoples who believed America. And now all these peoples are deep ..
    The Kurds went against Iran, Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Russia, Globally P. But for the gums with the United States. Well, how long will it last?
    1. eng
      eng 23 October 2017 21: 20 New
      +1
      the Kurds did not go against their neighbors it is their neighbors who went against them and deny them their legal right to their state, even autonomy
  3. Sars
    Sars 23 October 2017 06: 40 New
    +4
    The Kurds do not have their own state. It's a shame.
    Tatars have the same thing - no. At chichenov. It’s easier to say which nations have statehood: Kazakhs, Belarusians, Koreans, Finns with Swedes. Most of all, of course, the Jews tried - it's hard to say which states are not theirs: Iran, China, North Korea.
    1. eng
      eng 23 October 2017 21: 21 New
      +1
      the Tatars have the Chechens also just have a state Chechnya contains Russia and the Kurds want to create their own state and feed themselves they have everything for this
  4. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 23 October 2017 07: 03 New
    +3
    Otherwise, the Kurds can finally reorient to America and Israel.

    The United States has already made it clear to the Kurds that they are needed only as "cannon fodder" in solving American problems. When Kurds decide their interests, the support of Americans immediately disappears. If the Kurds are friends with the head, then orientation to the United States will not be completely. Regarding Israel - when did the Jews help the Kurds?
  5. samarin1969
    samarin1969 23 October 2017 07: 07 New
    +2
    Rosneft with its contract, of course, was pleased to form a “concern” with Kurdish independence. ... For our guys in Syria - they are more likely opponents. ...
  6. Humpty
    Humpty 23 October 2017 07: 25 New
    +6
    The Kurds have something else in common with the Jews. Kurds, like Jews, often hide their nationality. If the Kurds are disguised, then usually under the Turks. They cannot understand themselves, but give them the state.
    1. eng
      eng 23 October 2017 21: 23 New
      +1
      Kurds never hide that they are Kurds Turks have called Kurds mountain Turks for 60 years, but Kurds have never called themselves anything other than Kurds and have never hidden it
      1. Humpty
        Humpty 24 October 2017 02: 11 New
        +1
        Quote: yang
        Kurds never hide that they are Kurds

        Perhaps we know very different Kurds.
        I’m like an akyn, I see this and state it.
  7. andrewkor
    andrewkor 23 October 2017 08: 02 New
    +2
    One of the most devoted patriots of the USSR, this is the journalist Karem Rush-Kurd by nationality.
  8. MARSHAL BAGRAMYAN
    MARSHAL BAGRAMYAN 23 October 2017 08: 39 New
    +5
    not the Kurdish highlands but the Armenian and their entire Kurdistan on the lands of Armenia during the genocide, the Kurds slaughtered and taken into slavery of the Armenians no less than the Turks
    1. venaya
      venaya 23 October 2017 09: 58 New
      +4
      Quote: MARSHAL BAGRAMYAN
      not the Kurdish highlands and the Armenian and all of their Kurdistan in the lands of Armenia ..

      You really try to explain to me when the Kurds appeared and when the allegedly Armenians. Let me remind you: the Kurds have only religions, and the Avestan and ancient religion of worshiping the sun god among the Yezidi Kurds. Do you know anything about this? And Armenians only have an Armenian-Gregorian Christian church. And who, in time, appeared in those places before, and why is it suddenly the lands on which they lived much earlier suddenly became Armenian?
      1. protoss
        protoss 23 October 2017 11: 50 New
        0
        what does religious diversity have to do with the antiquity of the people?
      2. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 23 October 2017 21: 59 New
        -1
        Quote: venaya
        Quote: MARSHAL BAGRAMYAN
        not the Kurdish highlands and the Armenian and all of their Kurdistan in the lands of Armenia ..

        You really try to explain to me when the Kurds appeared and when the allegedly Armenians. Let me remind you: the Kurds have only religions, and the Avestan and ancient religion of worshiping the sun god among the Yezidi Kurds. Do you know anything about this? And Armenians only have an Armenian-Gregorian Christian church. And who, in time, appeared in those places before, and why is it suddenly the lands on which they lived much earlier suddenly became Armenian?

        The Yezidis are monotheists. For the "sun god" mistakenly take the peacock angel - Melekhtavas.
      3. Sparkling
        Sparkling wine - Dry 26 October 2017 14: 14 New
        0
        Do you at least understand anything about what to write about?
    2. Anton Yu
      Anton Yu 23 October 2017 10: 08 New
      +3
      Kurds are descendants of the Medes and they live on this territory for 6-7 thousand years, then your Armenia was not there.
      1. Bakht
        Bakht 23 October 2017 11: 02 New
        +3
        Oh, these ancient nations ... wink wink
        According to the Bible, the Lord created the Earth 6000 years ago
        1. venaya
          venaya 23 October 2017 13: 02 New
          +3
          Quote: Bakht
          According to the Bible, the Lord created the Earth ..

          Is that a religious site here? I'm talking about the antiquity of peoples, I indicated only the antiquity of their religious cultures, from which we can draw the appropriate conclusions. More than 50 thousand religions have been counted by mankind alone, and the gods there are simply unmeasured, not counted. And the name of the nation "armen" seems to have appeared only during the period of the Persian Empire, because in their language is Farsi: "ar" means "earth", and the Turkic root "men" was added, it seems later. Let us recall the "Tu (r) rk-men" an even younger nation, but of a purely Turkic-speaking origin. By the way, and where did the Armenian language come from, for some reason everyone is silent on this subject.
          1. Bakht
            Bakht 23 October 2017 13: 34 New
            +4
            It’s just that here many people rely on their religion. And then they talk about their antiquity. Actually, the self-name of the Armenians, as it seems to me, is still hai. Where and how did the Armenians, Kurds, Russians and others come from hundreds and thousands of books. From the primacy of trogoditid, to the Almighty. It is generally accepted that proto-Armenians appeared in Asia Minor 3-4 thousand years ago. They came from the Balkans. More precisely, you need to go into the directories, which is not very desirable now. The origin of the Kurds from the Medes is also a question for specialists. The written history of mankind can be limited to 2-3 thousand years ago from today. Everything else is archeology and our speculation.
            There is a good example of our knowledge of antiquity. Suppose, after a thousand years, excavations will be carried out on the territory of modern Moscow. And what will archaeologists find (unless of course they find something)? I think that they will break our time into the era of tin dishes, the era of china, the era of rocket engines and (in the circus) the era of horses. And if they also find a server from this site - they will write about the era of idiots. wink
            1. Sparkling
              Sparkling wine - Dry 26 October 2017 14: 18 New
              0
              Quote: Bakht
              And if they also find a server from this site - they will write about the era of idiots.

              A masterpiece.
        2. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 23 October 2017 22: 00 New
          -1
          Quote: Bakht
          Oh, these ancient nations ... wink wink
          According to the Bible, the Lord created the Earth 6000 years ago

          And we do not know what the Bible implied by the Year))))
      2. protoss
        protoss 23 October 2017 11: 34 New
        +1
        Well, finally, the Armenians in this region were already in the Hittite era (2 thousand BC), but the Medes (if they are considered the ancestors of the Kurds) appeared in the century in 9 BC
        In general, Iranian-speaking tribes massively arrive in the region precisely in 1 millennium BC.
        6-7 thousand years ago, these are some kind of fairy tales, such as “ancient ukrov” or “superethnos of the Rus”
        1. venaya
          venaya 23 October 2017 13: 15 New
          +2
          Quote: protoss
          .. Iranian speaking tribes ..

          You understand the name of the state "Iran" - it appeared only under A. Hitler, this is a Nazi term, the British were so entertained. Another thing is the previous name of the state: "Persia" - already clearly speaks of the Russian origin of both the term itself and the people inhabiting it, but practically it’s just southern Russia. And their language was always called "Farsi", and already as much as 2700 years old. What is the point of clipping the name of the language itself, is it not for the fact that even in its name it clearly indicates that it is simply a southern dialect of the Russian language:" Farsi "=" parsi "=" by Russian ", or simply the South Russian dialect. That's how the roots of Nazism are grown in a quiet way, for a little bit, and people try not to notice this, it’s apparently very scary to admit it.
          1. Bakht
            Bakht 23 October 2017 15: 12 New
            +2
            Deep knowledge in history
            In 1935, the first Iranian ruler from the Pahlavi dynasty - Reza sent a letter to the League of Nations asking him to use the word "Iran" (Erān) instead of the term "Persia" to name his country
            -----
            in the era of the rulers of the Sassanid dynasty (224- 652 AD), who were Zoroastrian fire-worshipers, Persia was officially called Eranshahr, i.e. Iranian empire.
            During the period of the Turkic Qajar dynasty, which ruled the country from 1795 to 1925 and preceded the last in the Persian history of the monarchist dynasty - Pahlavi, the country known in the world as Persia, however, officially everything was also called Iran. Namely “The Highest State of Iran” (Dowlat-e Eliyye-ye Irân). But in the outside world the name of the country was translated as Persia.
            Under the Pahlavi dynasty (rules from 1925 to 1979), Iran was officially named Shahanshah State of Iran (Doulat Shohanshokhi-i Iron (Persian دولت شاهنشاهی ایرا), where the title uses the ancient title of the Persian rulers "shahinshah" ("king of kings").
            Since 1979, after the fall of the monarchy, the country is officially called Islamic Republic of Iran (Persian جمهوری اسلامی ایران - Jomkhuri-ye Eslomi-ye Iron).

            And what does Hitler have to do with it? The name Persia was introduced not by the British, but by the Greeks.
            1. venaya
              venaya 23 October 2017 15: 48 New
              +1
              Quote: Bakht
              The name Persia was introduced not by the British, but by the Greeks.

              Explain then why their language is still called not Iranian (Aryan, in dialect) but Farsi, that is, the language of the Persians. And further: "Until 1935, modern Iran was officially called Persia."And the fact that it was once an advanced agricultural (Aryan) culture, yes, I agree with this, and perhaps that’s why they could call themselves (cool) farmers. But the trouble, the origin of the Persians themselves and their culture is northern, from the genus R1a1 , haplotype Z-93, hence the culture of fire-worshipers and their initial self-name is not surprising first name. There are a lot of dialects. Tajiks (descendants of Daj-God’s grandchildren) and a representative of the higher castes of India belong to this genus. the north has come, which has been written about everywhere. So it’s better to use the term “Farsi” for Russian, so as not to confuse anyone. And yes, the double name and, as it were, “Rus” (in dialect), and as if land users ( Aryans, in dialect.) So I think that I, too, for my part, am right, it depends more and more on which belfry to look at.
              1. Bakht
                Bakht 23 October 2017 16: 56 New
                +4
                I think that the ancient Persians or Aryans, had no idea about halogen groups. I have such a suspicion.
                Parsi is a small area in the south of a large country. In the time of Alexander the Great, the name Persia passed to the whole country. But the country has always been called Iran. That is, the country of the Aryans.
                Linking a halogen group and a religion is something new. Arias of India are not fire worshipers, are they?
                The country has always been Iran (that is, the country of the Aryans). The name Persia is the self-name of a small group, which the ancient Greeks transferred to the whole country. That's all. The error (zigzag) of the story corrected by Shah Reza Pahlavi.
                1. venaya
                  venaya 23 October 2017 18: 12 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Bakht
                  ancient Persians or Aryans, had no idea about halogen groups

                  Yes, do not care about this newspeak in the form of the word "halogen", there is a beautiful ancient word "genus", completely replacing it in the sense. And they could fully remember their births, there was such an opportunity because the forms of writing were invented fairly well, and as a rule, Russians. Here you confuse fundamental concepts such as ethnicity and origin and the predominant type of activity (occupation for obtaining "daily bread"). Rus is a concept of a clan, an ethnos. Arias are a form of activity, in this case farming ("ar" = land), the Russians could be engaged in cattle breeding, then they can be called "scotlans" = scotchman, (Scotland = pasture for livestock) while they are still ethnically pure Russians. Arias in the form of work can be both Russes and immigrants from Arabia who replaced them, that is, they are still farmers, only an ethnic group or a kind is already different. Here you have the same confusion as your protoss counterpart:
                  Quote: protoss
                  6-7 thousand years ago, these are some kind of fairy tales, such as “ancient ukrov” or “superethnos of the Rus”

                  here he, like many, confused an ethnos with labor specialization: "Ukrainian" - apparently = Ukrainian, that is, a guard of the country's edge, district, etc. The fact is that "Ukraine" - in Russian, means the concept of "borderland" = a strip of land on the edge of (country). This is a labor specialty and not an ethnic group or gender. Yes, I myself didn’t even write when the age of the Rus clan = 6-7 thousand years. There are publications from various sources that say that the genus R1a1 of the Z-280 group, attributed to the Rus, is 5 thousand years old, others write about the age of the genus "R1a" in 21-24 thousand years (which corresponds exactly to the description of the age of the Rus genus in the Veles book "), the genus" P "- already 60 thousand years - so it’s in genetics, in culture: the goddess" Makosh "- 100 thousand years old, and the written language is even more, better to say nothing. But a man is zombified by a dull education, hence he uses sensations and not knowledge of the subject. So I advise you to more accurately determine the difference in the concepts of "labor specialization" and "ethnic origin or gender" and the calendar date of 7526 years, then everything will go wrong in your head, all these contradictions will disappear.
                  1. Bakht
                    Bakht 23 October 2017 18: 39 New
                    +2
                    This is not for average minds. That is not for me. I looked at some literature. Well, a man cannot be a know-it-all. And he found out that the arias come from the word noble. But not the earth. For Buddhists, this signifies a saint. So your constructions somehow do not have a solid foundation.
                    1. venaya
                      venaya 23 October 2017 19: 33 New
                      +1
                      "constructions somehow do not have a solid foundation" - My constructions just have a fundamental basis in the study of languages ​​not by the translation method, but on the principles of understanding in the constructions of all languages. Example: according to your "aryk" method, it turns out to be a "latrine for noble holy people", but for me it’s just a "ditch". Further: "Agra-ary" is, in your opinion, a "crafted saint nobleman", and in my opinion, "a person engaged in cutting crookedly dug ditches to obtain a larger crop," that is, an expert in agriculture. And lastly: "Mount Ararat", the earth on earth sanctified by the sun God "Ra". And what happens according to your method? So do not rush to conclusions, to know everything is really not possible, but you can know a lot. So your method has already been vividly described in the literature: "Do not read the Bolshevik newspapers, this does not contribute to digestion." A solid foundation is determined by solid knowledge of the subject, in this case, knowledge in fundamental linguistics. Maybe someday and study it.
                      1. Bakht
                        Bakht 23 October 2017 20: 28 New
                        +3
                        What you write does not make any sense. Your links to the Veles book (fake by common opinion), some parallels with obscure words. The Scots were dragged, although these are just Scottish tribes and have nothing to do with cattle breeding. My chief Scot would have laughed long and hard at your fabrications. You have some kind of mystical mess of words in your head.
                        This is not interesting to me for the simple reason that it is all a set of simple sounds. Your advice can be returned to you "do not read mystical literature" and everything will be clear to you.
                        And then, I always did not like this method of conducting a discussion. Attribute to me words that I did not say and then refute them. I did not say anything about the aryk or the agrarian. This is all your speculation.
                        I'm not going to persuade anyone, much less to teach. live in your fantasy world - happiness to you.
                        It all started with Iran and are returning to Iran. This is the ancient and main name of the country. Without any mysticism. And the Greeks invented Persia and Europeans replicated.
                  2. Karen
                    Karen 23 October 2017 19: 04 New
                    0
                    "Arias are a form of activity, in this case farming ("ar" = land),"
                    Vyacheslav, maybe you should look into the Armenian dictionary?
                    Ari - a man, a man of a masculine gender.
                    Ariabar - courageously.
                    1. protoss
                      protoss 23 October 2017 19: 41 New
                      +2
                      don’t pull the owl on the globe, we can agree on anything like that. in Turkic, for example, "man, man" will be "Adam." Let’s then write the Bible to the Turks, let’s say that the Bible is there, in general, the origin of the human race.
                      1. Bakht
                        Bakht 23 October 2017 20: 32 New
                        +1
                        Yes, how dare you. wink Everyone has long known that the first person was an Armenian. After all, he descended from monkeys. wink
                        People have no idea what linguistics has such a term is “false friends of a translator”. When consonant words in different languages ​​mean completely different concepts. But you can’t explain this to some here. They have their own inner world. And it is very different from the real one.
                    2. venaya
                      venaya 23 October 2017 20: 03 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Karen
                      Ari is a man, a man of manhood.
                      Ariabar - courageously.

                      Thank you, this is clearly a complete coincidence with the basics of linguistics, because on earth hard work, that is, only for men, a woman is obliged to work around the house, work is easier, not for real men. "Aribar" is simply a derivative of the "hard work of the farmer," that is, courageous labor for men. Further:
                      Quote: protoss
                      "man, man" will be "adam." let's write the bible to the Turks

                      Great! Hence the conclusion: where did the language "Hebrew" come from - as usual a mixture of different languages ​​and Turkic and other dialects of very ancient Russian. Thank you, 100% coincidence with theory. In Hebrew: Adam = "man", "Eve" = "life" (woman = giving life), "Gospel" = biography. Thanks for the tips.
        2. Anton Yu
          Anton Yu 23 October 2017 17: 52 New
          +1
          On 9 BC historians point out, and archaeologists and geneticists point to the much earlier appearance of the Medes. And as for the Armenians, it is not necessary to equate modern Armenians with the ancient. Modern Armenians are ordinary Jews who have arrogated to themselves a strange name.
          1. protoss
            protoss 23 October 2017 19: 35 New
            +2
            Quote: Anton Yu
            do not equate modern Armenians with the ancient.

            Well, the present Greeks are not quite Dorians and Achaeans and Italians are not ancient Romans, etc. etc.
            centuries and millennia is not a pound of raisins for you.
          2. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 23 October 2017 22: 05 New
            -1
            Quote: Anton Yu
            On 9 BC historians point out, and archaeologists and geneticists point to the much earlier appearance of the Medes. And as for the Armenians, it is not necessary to equate modern Armenians with the ancient. Modern Armenians are ordinary Jews who have arrogated to themselves a strange name.

            Well, why ordinary .., if Jews, it’s very peculiar)))))))))
          3. Sparkling
            Sparkling wine - Dry 26 October 2017 14: 28 New
            +1
            Quote: Anton Yu
            Modern Armenians are ordinary Jews who have arrogated to themselves a strange name.

            And this is super. What can’t you find in VO ..
    3. protoss
      protoss 23 October 2017 11: 35 New
      0
      which does not stop many Armenians from drowning for the Kurds
  9. Semenov
    Semenov 23 October 2017 12: 25 New
    +1
    The Melting Pot did not melt one united nation. Kurds - puppets in the hands of the strong, give them weapons, the promise of territories - and can be used against anyone.
  10. padded jacket
    padded jacket 23 October 2017 15: 05 New
    +1
    Russia has declared that it is for the integrity of the Iraqi state so independent Kurdistan will have to “wait”
    Press conference of the Foreign Ministers of Russia and Iraq
  11. Disorder
    Disorder 23 October 2017 15: 57 New
    +1
    No, probably, on the land of another people from all national ethnic groups with such a tragic fate as the Kurds. This is perhaps the only people who failed to achieve in the twentieth century neither the status of statehood, nor even the right to cultural self-determination.

    Say it to the North American Indians.
  12. Karen
    Karen 23 October 2017 17: 30 New
    0
    As far as I remember from the last century :), i.e. I read it a long time ago and don’t remember where ... That Kurds from the Persian Gulf region, from where they were resettled to Sinai, and then the Arabs came to us.
    The Persians, by the way, themselves came to power somewhere in 225 +/- 2 AD. Before that, Mary ruled (Marastan we called that country)
    They had states ... Khlat on the shore of the lake. Wang, still in the Ganja area.
    Do not forget about the most famous Kurd in the history of Saleh ad Din ..
    1. protoss
      protoss 23 October 2017 19: 56 New
      0
      before the Persians "dominated" maгand, these are just the very Medes whose descendants consider themselves Kurds. it was only in the 7-6 centuries BC, then the power passed to the Persians. in 225 AD the Persians restored their kingdom after several centuries of foreign (Greeks, Parthians) rule.
      Kurds themselves from the Persian Gulf region in this way do not work, because the mussel is much more north - the current Iranian Azerbaijan, northern Iraq, eastern Anatolia.
      about salah ad-din - it is surprising how tenacious this fable turned out to be about its Kurdish origin.
      Saladin made a career in the Seljuk emirate of zengids (nuraddin zengi, a group whose name was actively manifested in the current civil war in Syria), his army consisted of the same Turkmens, and subsequently replenished with Mamelukes of Kypchak origin, which eventually seized power in Egypt.
      the version of his Kurdish origin seems dubious to me. I don’t quite understand why the Turkmen emirs should accept some Kurds, albeit of noble origin, into their circle. and the only lifetime portrait of a saladin (the author of the “Arab da Vinci” al Jazari) captured not a monobrow Kurd, but quite a Mongoloid.
      1. antivirus
        antivirus 23 October 2017 20: 36 New
        0
        rifle gives rise to power. before that - a saber and a sword.
        Power creates people, etc.
        The people (tribe and clan) form the area of ​​residence, then the state.
        NOBODY WILL PROVE ANYTHING. PROCESSES WERE PARALLEL AND AT DIFFERENT SPEEDS.
        KNOWING YOUR OWN KNOWLEDGE (YOUR BRAIN AND THE EXISTING LIBRARY) IS NOT THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD
  13. Karen
    Karen 23 October 2017 18: 26 New
    +1
    Quote: Anton Yu
    On 9 BC historians point out, and archaeologists and geneticists point to the much earlier appearance of the Medes. And as for the Armenians, it is not necessary to equate modern Armenians with the ancient. Modern Armenians are ordinary Jews who have arrogated to themselves a strange name.

    Maybe you should read from the story?
    We basically sent Jews (a million) to Byzantium and Bulgaria (and this after a terrible pogrom of 500000 souls). And before that, the Persians periodically took them from us.
    1. Anton Yu
      Anton Yu 23 October 2017 20: 20 New
      0
      Read whose story? Armenian. Do not make me laugh. I was born in the USSR and I remember very well how in those years, Armenians competed with neighbors who had an ancient history. Then the history of ancient Armenia was invented. People appeared on the Armenian Highlands 3-4 thousand years ago. Who can prove that they were Armenians? None. On the territory of the Russian Federation there are cities that are 20-40 thousand years old or more, but no one says that Russians lived there.
      1. Sparkling
        Sparkling wine - Dry 26 October 2017 14: 34 New
        +1
        Quote: Anton Yu
        People appeared on the Armenian Highlands 3-4 thousand years ago.

        Quote: Anton Yu
        Who can prove that they were Armenians?

        Maybe the logic?
        1. Anton Yu
          Anton Yu 26 October 2017 21: 53 New
          0
          What logic can be in the Armenian pseudo-history?
          1. Sparkling
            Sparkling wine - Dry 30 October 2017 12: 28 New
            0
            Armenophobia is also xenophibia.
  14. The comment was deleted.
  15. Karen
    Karen 23 October 2017 21: 40 New
    0
    Bakht,
    You have already gone beyond what is permitted and behave like a monkey.
    1. Bakht
      Bakht 23 October 2017 22: 06 New
      0
      And what is the inadmissibility? What attributed the birthright to the Armenians? You don’t have to deal with nonsense and everything will be fine.
    2. Bakht
      Bakht 23 October 2017 22: 20 New
      0
      Oh, these ancient nations. Straight from the monkeys. Yet 500 thousand years
      1. Karen
        Karen 23 October 2017 22: 32 New
        0
        Bakhtiyar, you are definitely a monkey ... from a tribe or ak-koyunlu or kara-koyunlu.
        1. Bakht
          Bakht 23 October 2017 22: 45 New
          0
          Note, I did not go over to the personality. All claims are not to me. Contact Prokopenko.
          And you also need to be able to swear. But for this, you need to have intelligence just above the baseboard.
          1. Karen
            Karen 23 October 2017 22: 56 New
            0
            You understand what you deserve for your form of writing. You also deserve curses above seven floors ... I do not swear yet, then it will depend on your form of communication ...
            1. Bakht
              Bakht 23 October 2017 23: 03 New
              0
              I don’t communicate with you at all. Sometimes I write on topics that interest me. With you personally, there can be no communication. Well, I do not argue with the closet ... Dubov.
              1. Karen
                Karen 23 October 2017 23: 06 New
                0
                A ram is from a tribe or black rams or white rams.
                1. Bakht
                  Bakht 23 October 2017 23: 13 New
                  0
                  I already heard that. You repeat. Lack of imagination?
                  For example, I always knew that Darwin was right. And taking into account the oldest nation on earth, I now know for sure your halogen group. That is, your ancestors are known. And mind you, it's just that I linked the two statements. The origin of man and who was the first man. Nothing about you personally.
                  1. Karen
                    Karen 23 October 2017 23: 22 New
                    0
                    So I tell you about the form of your letter ...
                    If you don’t even say a word about you, this does not change the information about your famous ancestors ... clarifying the color, white or black, it doesn’t matter ... the essence is important.
                    1. Bakht
                      Bakht 23 October 2017 23: 28 New
                      0
                      Uninteresting with you. You can’t even swear. All around the rams you walk. What a day today is so unlucky. There was no one smart to talk to.
                      1. Karen
                        Karen 23 October 2017 23: 37 New
                        0
                        Yes, Bakhtiyar, I walk a lot around your sheep ... I also know very well the habits.
                        There are people in whose memory only good memories have been preserved.
  16. Bakht
    Bakht 23 October 2017 23: 42 New
    0
    Karen,
    No, still not interesting
    I hope you are not as stupid as you look here. But, Lord, why do you look that way? .....
    1. Karen
      Karen 23 October 2017 23: 52 New
      0
      Bakhtiyar,
      Well, why do you expose yourself as cunning ... you know, this can sometimes play a cruel joke ...
      1. Bakht
        Bakht 23 October 2017 23: 54 New
        0
        No, the opponent did not work out of you. Different weight categories. But still the boring day was a bit successful.
        Learn to argue - come.
        1. Sparkling
          Sparkling wine - Dry 26 October 2017 14: 40 New
          +1
          Xenophobia (from the Greek. Ξένος - stranger + φόβος - fear) - fear or hatred of someone or something else; the perception of someone else as dangerous and hostile. Raised to the rank of worldview, it can cause hostility on the principle of national, religious or social division of people [1].