Military Review

Molodetskaya decline

138



At the parliamentary hearings on the topic “Patriotic education of Russian citizens:“ The Immortal Regiment ”in February of this year, deputy Nikolay Zemtsov in the report-presentation reported“ sensational ”figures of Soviet losses: nearly 42 million Soviet people died in the Great Patriotic War.

Denial of "sensation", unfortunately, was not followed either by deputies or by professional historians. At first it was understandable - in preparing and conducting the noblest action “Immortal Regiment”, there was no wish to blame Nikolai Zemtsov, one of its organizers. But then the figures cited by him began to actively use to defend the Red Army and denounce the inhumanity of its command the adherents of the thesis of the “excessive price of Victory” (Igor Chubais in the “60 Minutes” program, Pavel Gutiontov in the article “Victory makes a bill”, Boris Sokolov in various interviews and etc.). There are no public refutations of the “new” numbers of Soviet casualties in the war from Rosstat, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, or professional historians.

It turned out that the author of the “discoveries” was the creator and moderator of the Soldat.ru site, Igor Ivlev, who fruitfully engaged in search work in the Arkhangelsk region. But he in vain took up the calculations of human losses. The content of his work “The loss of the population of the USSR in 1941 – 1945. Losses of servicemen and civilians during the period of the Great Patriotic War ”shows that the author’s knowledge is insufficient for a correct assessment. Consider the main mistakes Ivleva.

The components of the sensation

The casualties (F) of the entire population of the USSR in the Great Patriotic War are calculated using the formula known in demography:
P = ΔN + P - Y ± M,
where ΔН = (НН - НК) is the decline in the population of the country;
NN (NK) - the population at the beginning (end) of the war;
P is the number of births during the war;
Y is the number of deaths at the “normal” mortality rate;
M - amendment to migration and territorial changes.

In Ivlev's calculations, the last factor is not taken into account at all, and the remaining terms of the above formula are determined with gross errors.

The population at the beginning of the war (NN) Ivlev estimated at 205 millions of people. This is refuted by the simplest demographic calculations. According to estimates, based on the January 1939 census and taking into account the subsequent increase due to new territories, the population of the USSR as of January 1940 was 193 – 195 million people. This means that, according to Ivlev's calculations, in a year and a half (from January 1940-th to the end of June 1941-th) increased by 10 – 12 million. The annual growth is equal to 7 – 8 to millions of people - 3,5 – 4 percent of the country's population. But according to official statistics and demographic calculations, it has never exceeded two percent during the entire XX century.

The error lies in the counting method. The population of the USSR at the beginning of the war (205 002 405 people) Ivlev determined by summing up the Central Directorate of National Economic Accounting (TsUNKHU) of the USSR State Plan (199 920 100 people) and Marshal of the Soviet Union Matthew Zakharov about military personnel (5 XNUMNN)

But the interpretation of the first term as the exclusively civilian population of the USSR is speculation. In 1940 and 1941, records were kept according to the census. It also includes the number of military personnel. The certificate of the head of TsUNHU Ivan Sautin dated February 10, 1939 reads: 52 people - the urban population, 376 - rural residents, 962 people were transferred in a special order to the NKVD and the People’s Commissariat of Defense (106 of them were in the army and the fleet), 2 - in remote areas of the Far North. In total - 330 000 167 people. In addition, during the control rounds, 305 people were included in the control forms, in addition to those included in the census forms. After rechecking, the final number of the population of the USSR as of January 749, 4 was determined at 452. Initially, the army and navy were supposed to be issued in a separate line for the results for the republics, territories and regions. On this occasion, a letter was sent to Vyacheslav Molotov from the people's commissars of defense and the Navy Voroshilov and Frinovsky and the chief of TsUNHU Sautin with a proposal to show the previously published official number of the army and navy in 311 people, and to distribute the difference between it and the actual results of the census of military personnel by republic , edges and areas. In the final tables, the number of military personnel is not separately indicated. It is distributed by adding the corresponding numbers to the republican, regional and regional census results.

In 1940 and 1941, the statistical offices in the regions added to the census data, which took into account military personnel, the increase over the past period after the event. Thus, the total population of the USSR was calculated. In particular, the total figure of 199,9 million people on 1 July 1941 of the year is obtained as follows. The population of the USSR at the beginning of 1939 of the year according to the census was 170,6 million, and taking into account the territories attached to 1939 – 1940-m (21,3 million) - 191,9 million. The increase in the USSR population in 1939 is 3,8 million, in 1940 is 2,8 million, in the first half of 1941, 1,4 million people. Total for the time from the census to the beginning of the war - 8 millions.



We note that Ivlev contrasts his calculations with the figure given in the book “Russia and the USSR in the Wars of the Twentieth Century” (196,7 million people), which was published in 2001 by the Provisional Scientific Team (HSC) of military historians under the leadership of Colonel-General Grigory Krivosheev. VNK was created in March 1989 by a Resolution of the Central Committee of the CPSU to clarify the losses of soldiers and civilians of the Soviet Union in the Great Patriotic War. The total population losses of the USSR were estimated by the staff of the Demography Department of the Research Institute of the USSR State Statistical Committee Andreev, Darskiy and Kharkiv (hereinafter referred to as ADH), who had been doing research in this area for many years. In connection with the work of the VNK, the leadership of the State Statistics Committee of the USSR removed the security classification from the population data stored in the Central State Archive of the National Economy of the USSR. The results of OWC in this part are published in the works of ADH.History population of the USSR: 1920 – 1959 years ”(edition of 1990 of the year) and“ Population of the Soviet Union: 1922 – 1991 ”(1993) - judging by the content of Ivlev's works, he is not familiar with these books. The authors describe in detail how the figure (26,6 of a million people) in Soviet casualties in a war was obtained. In particular, after a thorough analysis of the 1939 census, ADH concluded that the official figures are too high. In the USSR, on 1 in January, 1939 was not 170,6 million, but 168,5 million people (by the way, many demographers argue that at that date the population of the USSR was even smaller - between 167 and 168 millions). The population of the territories attached to the USSR in 1939 – 1940 years, ADH determined in 20,2 million. With their account in the USSR on January 1 1939, according to calculations ADH, there were188,7 million people. Accordingly, by the beginning of the war, the country's population due to growth (8 million) is estimated at 196,7 million, which is 8,3 million people less than the corresponding Ivlev figure.

The estimated population of the USSR at the end of the war (NK - 169,8 million on 1 July 1945-th) almost coincides with the data of ADH (170,5 million on 1 January 1946-th), obtained by shifting the ages from the 1959 census. But Ivlev rejects him. He writes: “... the state commission, ignoring or not finding the documents of the USSR State Planning Committee, used the methodically incorrect way of calculating the so-called back and forth movement from the reference indicators.” This is an incompetent, amateurish opinion. The age-shifting method (in the West, it is called the component method) was developed by the famous American demographer Pascal Welpton, who headed the United Nations Demography Division in 50. The method is considered to be one of the most effective tools for forecasting demographic processes, including the assessment of casualties during the war years. Using the age shift method, the total population of the USSR (170,5 million) was estimated on 31 December 1945 of the year and the number of generations born before 22 June 1941 of the year (159,5 million people).

Ivlev went the other way. The population of the USSR at the end of the war (169 809 524 man) he determined by summing up the data of republican statisticians (151 165 200) with the number of aircraft (12 839 800) and displaced persons (5 804 524 people). The population size at the end of the war could not be determined by the population census 1939 of the year due to uncontrolled wartime migration of people, the inability to determine the number of births and deaths in the occupied territories. Therefore, the figures given by Ivlev were obtained in the only possible way at that time - an indicative calculation of the actual urban and rural population. It is clear that the personnel of the Red Army (much of which by 1 July 1945 was outside the USSR) and displaced persons who were at that time outside the country are not covered by these calculations. Therefore, methodically counting Ivlev of the USSR population by July 1, 1945, is correct. Its accuracy is not higher than the accuracy of the ADH, since the data on the population of the RSFSR, Moldavian and Karelian-Finnish SSR are designated by the republican statistics departments as approximate or preliminary.
The number of births (R) during the war years (17,6 million people) Ivlev calculated as follows: according to the document, the CSB determined that in 1941, in the RSFSR, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Armenia, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan, 2,9 a million people were born. Then, in proportion to the population, he extrapolated this data to the entire territory of the USSR and received 4,4 for a million children in 1941. And by a simple multiplication by four, the total number of births in the USSR during the war years (from 1 July 1941-th to 1 July 1945-th) was established.

In these calculations there are three rough assumptions. Since August 1941, a number of regions of the RSFSR have been partially or fully occupied by the Germans and no information on the birth rate has been received by the CSB. Therefore, information from the archived Centrostat document cannot be considered reliable. Further, it is incorrect to distribute data on the birth rate in the territories indicated in the document over the entire territory of the USSR, since, say, the Baltic states lagged far behind the RSFSR, the Caucasian and Central Asian republics. Thirdly, one cannot extrapolate the birth rate in 1941 for the next years of the war.

Studies show the non-linear nature of changes in the birth rate in the USSR during the war. According to a number of demographers (Boris Urlanis, Alexander Kvashi, Vladimir Gelfand, etc.), in 1941, it was slightly different from the birth rate of the prewar 1940, but in 1943 was twice as low and began to grow slowly in 1944. According to the former head of the Center for Social Demography of ISPI RAS, Doctor of Economic Sciences Leonid Rybakovsky (the book “Human losses of the USSR and Russia in the Great Patriotic War, 2001), about 15 million people were born during the war. Thus, the number of Ivlev is overestimated by more than two million.

It is important to note that the inability to correctly calculate this forced the ADH to modify the algorithm for estimating the total population loss so as to exclude those born during the war. For this, ADH set the number of generations born before the war (159,5 million) at the end of the war, and the total population losses of the USSR were calculated using the formula:

P = ΔН1 - U1 + ΔUD
where: ΔН1 = (НН - НК1) is the decline in the population of the USSR from the generations born before the start of the war;
NK1 - the number at the end of the war generations born before the outbreak of war;
У1 - the number of deaths from generations born before the start of the war, with the "normal" mortality rate;
ΔUD is the excess of infant mortality during the war over infant mortality in “normal” conditions.

The number of deaths (Y) in the war (10,8 million) Ivlev received, using the same rough assumptions as in the counting of births. But his main mistake was that he counted the number of “naturally” dead, and it was necessary to count the number of dead at the “normal” mortality rate. The latter concept is much broader than “natural mortality”. In normal conditions of life of any state, except for mortality from natural causes, life is claimed by occupational injuries, murder and suicide, traffic accidents, fires, and emergency situations. In order to correctly assess the impact of war on the level of casualties, it is necessary to exclude mortality not only for natural reasons, but also for all others, except those caused by war. Therefore, the death rate of a pre-war year is taken as the “normal” level. In our demographics for the Great Patriotic War, the peaceful 1940 year was adopted as the “normal” level, when 4,2 million people died. Consequently, in four years the “normal” mortality of the USSR population would be 16,8 million, which is six million more than the “natural” loss calculated by Ivlev.

ADH counted the “normal” mortality not of the entire population of the USSR, but of the generations born before the start of the war. It turned out 11,9 million. In addition, they calculated that in the war of children died on 1,3 million more than in "normal" conditions. However, for some reason, Ivlev believes that the latter figure is an estimate of infant mortality during the war years. This is not so: it shows only “redundancy” - the excess of the number of dead children compared with pre-war.

The considered errors say that the total overstatement of the total population losses was at least 13 million people. If everything is fixed, then the total losses (P) of the population of the USSR will be equal:
P = (199,9 million - 169,8 million) + 15 million - 16,8 million = 28,3 million people.

ADH has a total loss (P) of the population of the USSR almost two million lower:
P = (196,7 million - 159,5 million) - 11,9 million + 1,3 million = 26,6 million.

The difference is mainly explained by the ADH adjustment of the population of the Soviet Union at the beginning of the war in the direction of decreasing. It should be noted that when counting losses, they estimated external migration during the war years and after it to 622 thousands of people, but in reality, as a result of emigration and post-war population movements during the territorial changes, much more citizens left the USSR. Consequently, the country's casualties in the war are less than 26,6 million people — roughly in the 23 – 25 million range.

Western Formula Account

The irretrievable losses of the Red Army, Igor Ivlev, estimates at 19,5 a million military personnel, and this cannot be considered correct, since it does not correlate with the estimates of the losses of the male population of the country. Demographer Vladimir Gelfand and ADH independently of each other, using a detailed method of age movements, got that in the USSR only 15,8 – 16,1 of a million men of military age died during the war (military and civilian: who in 1941 was 14 years and in 1946 could be 56 years). According to Ivlev's figures, 3,4 – 3,7 million more died in the Red Army during the war than all (both military and civilian) men of the Soviet Union of military age (apparently, about ten million aliens fought on the Red Army side).

Losses of the Red Army Ivlev determined by drawing up a balance of the Armed Forces over 1941 – 1945 years (see table). However, it has major flaws.
1. The number of people involved in the Armed Forces is defined in 37,6611 million, but this includes 2,2373 million for the second time. This is a double count. In addition, Ivlev takes mobilized from June 22 to December 31 1941, 14 million people. However, according to the General Staff Operations Directorate (from 1 in May 1942), from the beginning of the war until January 1, 1942 was mobilized less by 2,210 million - 11,790 million people.

2. Ivlev mistakenly excluded from a loss, not related to irretrievable losses, most of the military transferred to industry, local air defense and military security units (3,6146 - 0,0947 = 3,5119 million), aimed at staffing troops and NKVD (not part of the Armed Forces), special formations other departments (1,1746 million) and transferred to the manning units and parts of the Polish Army, the Czechoslovak and Romanian armies (0,2504 million). Excluding them from the loss, not related to irretrievable losses, he motivated by the fact that they remained in the ranks of the Armed Forces. This is not the case, since everyone was excluded from the lists of the Red Army. For example, those drafted into the Armed Forces, but transferred to industry as part of the workers' columns, became conscripted - fit for military service, but in reserve. This confirms the GKO Resolution of 26 July 1942 of the year No. 2100CC, where in paragraph 6 it was determined: “To oblige the people's commissariats to 20 of August, with. to transfer to the army ... b) 50 000 people of military service, eligible for military service, aged up to 45 from among those transferred to the people's commissariats as part of working convoys (Appendix No. 2 - calculation of conscription for people's commissariats) ”. Appendix No. 2 had the name "Calculation of conscription of military service, suitable for the system, from the working columns transferred to the People's Commissars". In addition, Ivlev underestimated the number of servicemen who returned from captivity after the war (0,9493 million instead of 1,550 million people, according to Viktor Zemskov).

With a double count, inaccuracies in determining the number of those called up in 1941 and the unlawful exclusion of a number of categories of servicemen from loss, not related to irretrievable losses, the balance has nothing to do with reality. When correcting errors, the number of people drawn into the Armed Forces, reduced by Ivlev, will decrease to 33,2138 million, and the total loss of the Armed Forces to the war will decrease to 20,3740 million people. When taking into account the categories of loss, which are not related to irretrievable losses, they are reduced in balance to 9,4283 million, which is comparable to the data of the military historians group published in 1993 year: 9,1684 million people (including 0,5 million designed, but captured by the Germans before their arrival) to the troops).

The 19,5 figure of the million dead Soviet soldiers is contrary to historical experience. In this situation, the Wehrmacht should have missed at least 9,5 million people. But his real losses on the Soviet-German front, according to modern German data, were less than two times less. Consequently, the irrecoverable losses of the Red Army are more than two times less than the figure of Ivlev 19,5 million, that is no more than 9,5 million people, which is again comparable with the figures of military historians. However, their data is also somewhat overestimated, since the calculations do not take into account the “normal” mortality of servicemen, and also double counting is not completely excluded. The real losses of the Red Army, apparently, did not exceed nine million people.

Street theme

Casualties remain a central theme in a multi-year western project to belittle the role of the Soviet Union in defeating fascism. But judging by the lack of reaction to Ivlev's erroneous calculations, the corresponding studies are not conducted in contemporary Russian historical science. Therefore, amateurish figures, which sometimes overestimate the losses of the Red Army on the Soviet-German front and slander the combat skills of Soviet soldiers and military leaders, are walking on the Internet.
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  1. parusnik
    parusnik 22 October 2017 07: 36 New
    +6
    relevant studies in modern Russian historical science are not conducted. That’s why amateurish numbers are walking on the Internet, sometimes inflating, sometimes several times, the losses of the Red Army on the Soviet-German front and discrediting the combat skills of Soviet soldiers and commanders.
    ..This is true ...
    1. Petrik66
      Petrik66 22 October 2017 08: 30 New
      +8
      What a brilliant, detailed and necessary comment from a sailing ship.
    2. Johns
      Johns 22 October 2017 11: 06 New
      +2
      Quote: Vladimir Litvinenko
      It turned out that the author of the "discoveries" was the creator and moderator of Soldat.ru Igor Ivlev

      The author is simply lying. The report clearly indicates the source of the figures, formerly "closed" data of the USSR State Planning Commission (for the top Soviet leadership). And its composition in the military and post-war years included the Central Statistical Administration of the USSR. Those. The main Soviet "accountant". Therefore, it was simply impossible to find more reliable data than these in the USSR. This is the most original source. Therefore, no one argues with these figures. Because arguing with them is simply stupid.
      In addition to the most stubborn, of course. They argue and will argue with everything that turns up under their arm. For the sake of the dispute itself.
      Quote: Vladimir Litvinenko
      But in vain he took up the calculations of human losses.

      This Litvinenko took in vain. Because he does not know and cannot know the real numbers. And it can only operate with “open” data from the same Central Statistical Bureau of the USSR (for shaggy people). And this data can be anything. Including adjusted to the "official" statistics, and this is simply deliberately wrong.
      This is the Bolsheviks, my friend. They also did not do such “things”. Therefore, to write a couple of "more politically correct" figures for them, it was a couple of trifles.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 22 October 2017 12: 29 New
        11
        Quote: Johns
        The report clearly indicates the source of the figures, formerly "closed" data of the USSR State Planning Commission (for the top Soviet leadership). And its composition in the military and post-war years included the Central Statistical Administration of the USSR. Those. The main Soviet "accountant".

        Considering the fact that the CSB was part of the Gosplan only until 1948, there were no opportunities to calculate the losses in the war (if the CSB did this at all). This is as if obvious to everyone except you and Ivlev :)
        Quote: Johns
        This is the most original source.

        In which there is NO loss data. Ivlev thinks them out using separate documents
        1. Johns
          Johns 22 October 2017 12: 44 New
          +2
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Considering the fact that the CSB was part of the Gosplan only until 1948, there were no opportunities to calculate the losses in the war (if the CSB did this at all).

          You are not familiar with the system of government. In particular, the USSR. Losses in the war CSB began to consider 22.06.1941/3/30. at 1945:1945 in the morning. Initially, starting in the east of the USSR. And more or less reliable total data on losses in the war were known to the leadership of the USSR in the summer of XNUMX. And by the end of XNUMX, the final loss figures were known. With a microscopic error.
          Three years to build up, and even "not enough", it is immediately clear that in this matter you are a complete layman.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          In which there is NO loss data.

          Those. all who familiarize themselves with this document acknowledge that the data on losses is indicated there. And clearly indicated. There are no objectors. Moreover, it was a huge number, both people and organizations of various kinds. And only you, without seeing the documents, claim that there is nothing there. And of course, you are right, and not everyone else.
          I already wrote above about the debaters for the sake of argument. Apparently you are one of them.
          PS. Why do you constantly drag in some Ivlev? I understand that it’s more convenient for you to argue with him than with reliable data from the Central Statistical Bureau of the USSR. So argue. But I'm not Ivlev.
          And to the numbers. voiced in the State Duma of the Russian Federation, he has nothing to do. This is just your invention. "Nimble move." The source of the data in the February report is indicated unambiguously by the USSR State Planning Commission.
          1. antivirus
            antivirus 22 October 2017 22: 33 New
            +4
            I do not go into exact calculations
            but where to rank Bandera. Poles in the Anders army (all from the western suburbs, from 39 g to the USSR), the Baltic states of the SS, Vlasovites, Khiva, Crimean Tatars on two (the same people) sides of the fighting, other Caucasians, policemen (after the liberation of territories that fell into different owls "formations" - not always in Magadan) and other enemies of the Red Army, from the group of the USSR ??????????????
            and where are the losses of the Reich allies? —these allies also killed our soldiers, or not yours (who sits on which side the identity matters)
          2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 23 October 2017 18: 19 New
            +3
            Quote: Johns
            You are not familiar with the system of government.

            What are you saying
            Quote: Johns
            In particular, the USSR. Losses in the war CSB began to consider 22.06.1941/3/30. at 1945:1945 in the morning. Initially, starting in the east of the USSR. And more or less reliable total data on losses in the war were known to the leadership of the USSR in the summer of XNUMX. And by the end of XNUMX, the final loss figures were known. With a microscopic error.

            Honestly, such ignorance even reluctant to comment. You have no idea what you are going to write about.
            In the Second World War, in principle, there were no sources from which losses could be considered at least somewhat operatively. Even the Red Army, not to mention the civilian population.
            The reports of the parts are already incomplete even by the fact that there is no and cannot be operational data on
            military units that were surrounded and ceased to exist there. In other cases, it is impossible to classify the missing - either died or captured. There is evidence of conscripted military registration and enlistment offices, but they are not complete, especially for territories that find themselves in occupation. But even if the data is there - those who arrived on the agenda of the military registration and enlistment office and got to parts of the Red Army - these are two big differences. It is no less difficult with those who returned from the war, since all the time people returned completely to the wrong place, from where they went to the front and the same applies captivity. It is extremely difficult to sort those who died in the war in battle, and who were killed in captivity. And the mass relocations of civilians, when they are voluntary, and when not so much (the same Chechnya?) And “heavis”, i.e. those who died in battle, but only fighting for the Wehrmacht? And how to take all this into account when it comes to tens of millions of people? And given the lack of computer technology that allows you to quickly process large amounts of data?
            In general, neither in 1945, nor in 1965 there could be any reliable data.
            Quote: Johns
            Those. all who read this document acknowledge that the data on losses are indicated there

            What are you familiar with? :))) Where is the document? :)))
            Quote: Johns
            And clearly indicated. There are no objectors.

            Well, do not comment on every nonsense, there doesn’t ring any comment
            Quote: Johns
            And only you, without seeing the documents, claim that there is nothing there. And of course, you are right, and not everyone else.

            Let's clarify - “everyone else” is Mr. Zemtsov, referring to some mysterious documents of the State Planning Commission and Mr. Ivlev, whose illiterate calculations are refuted by the article.
            Is it not enough for "everyone"? :)))
            Quote: Johns
            Why do you constantly drag in some Ivlev?

            It is indicated in the article.
            Quote: Johns
            I understand that it’s more convenient for you to argue with him than with reliable data from the Central Statistical Bureau of the USSR.

            Show them :))))) Can't? Did not see? That's bad luck :)))))
            Quote: Johns
            The source of the data in the February report is indicated unambiguously by the USSR State Planning Commission.

            Which could not have a priori similar figures
            1. Johns
              Johns 23 October 2017 18: 32 New
              +1
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              In general, neither in 1945, nor in 1965 there could be any reliable data.

              That's nonsense. The authorities in the USSR knew EVERY resident of the country. Where he lives and what he does. So it was arranged, this USSR. A man there just could not get lost. Because he was registered from the moment of birth until his death.
              Therefore, I repeat once again for those who are in an armored train - the current situation in terms of losses in the Kremlin was known very close to the real-time mode. A complete, at the end of 1945.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Which could not have a priori similar figures

              A person with the pace of work declared by you would have been shot in the 30s (and also in the 40s). Like a pest.
              1. chenia
                chenia 23 October 2017 19: 03 New
                +4
                I saw through your Ivlev, declare the number of natural mortality for four years of war.
              2. antivirus
                antivirus 23 October 2017 19: 34 New
                +2
                Radio Liberty started work
              3. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 23 October 2017 22: 44 New
                +4
                Quote: Johns
                That's nonsense. The authorities in the USSR knew EVERY resident of the country. Where he lives and what he does. So it was arranged, this USSR

                Yes Yes. And they knew about everyone missing, but what about? Indeed, for each draftee, three statisticians also relied on two enlisted men who kept watch over him. So everyone knew about everyone, and that they were missing, this is such a military trick, because it's secret :)))
                In short, try to turn on your head, and just think about how magically the USSR knew everything, everything ... well, at least about actually drafted into the army - especially from territories that were in occupation :))
                Quote: Johns
                Therefore, I repeat once again for those who are in an armored train - the current situation in terms of losses in the Kremlin was known very close to the real-time mode. A complete, at the end of 1945.

                Yes, do not repeat, this is the lot of parrots. Try to think about what you are repeating at least once.
                Quote: Johns
                A person with the pace of work declared by you would have been shot in the 30s (and also in the 40s). Like a pest.

                Everything can be :)) But the problem is that they will shoot me, reliable data on the losses of the Second World War before the dates indicated by me (and that, with fruitful work) will not appear.
                1. Johns
                  Johns 23 October 2017 22: 56 New
                  0
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  And they knew about everyone missing, but what about?

                  Of course they did. They knew that he was not on the Black Sea coast of the Krasnodar Territory. And if, after the war, captivity is not found, then he died. There were very few options.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  In short, try to turn on your head,

                  Whoever has pain hurts about that.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Well, at least about those actually drafted into the army - especially from territories that were in occupation :))

                  And what, there was some difference where the person was called from? You invented or subtracted somewhere?
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Yes, do not repeat, this is the lot of parrots.

                  It’s a pity that it’s impossible to attach a parrot to every person like you. So that 100 times a day you drive the truth into your head. Maybe after some time she would be hooked there. True, I do not know why.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  But here's the problem - from the fact that they will shoot me, reliable data on the losses of the Second World War before the dates indicated by me (and that, with fruitful work) will not appear.

                  I already wrote about the parrot above. Read it again, this is just for people like you.
            2. Gransasso
              Gransasso 23 October 2017 19: 23 New
              +1
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Which could not have a priori similar figures




              This person has no idea how the USSR functioned .... in a country in which everything and everything was kept ... in which it was impossible to sneeze without the help of the village council / registration / registration in the military registration and enlistment office ... in which at that time if it didn’t work where a thread-planted ... in which it was impossible to eat without grocery cards, etc., etc. ..... in such a country, this Persian offers to believe him on the word that several tens of millions of people who went there and the state couldn’t get lost no way to count for years ...... anarchy is shorter ... walk the field ... FACEPALME
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 23 October 2017 22: 55 New
                +2
                Quote: Gransasso
                This person has no idea how the USSR functioned .... in a country in which everything and everything was kept ... in which it was impossible to sneeze without the help of the village council / registration / registration in the military commissariat ...

                (heavy breath) Listen, well, already your dull ignorance has already got it. Do you even know what the registration was tied to? To the passport. And when did our universal passportization happen? officially - in 1974. What kind of "you can't sneeze" are you talking about? Before the war, the same peasants, if they needed to, quietly removed from their places and moved to the "construction sites of the century" or there simply to the cities. At the same time, registration was DESIRABLE because it gave the person certain benefits, but NOT MANDATORY, they calmly took work without registration, because industrialization and working hands were desperately needed. You are so deprived of imagination that you are unable to understand that the USSR of the 80s and the pre-war USSR in terms of accounting for people are two very big differences
                And of course you will never realize the fact that all these certificates that you remembered were handed out and copies were stored (if at all stored) at the place of issue. In the occupied territories, of course, all this went mostly to the furnace, so after the war - alas and ah. In general ... what to speak with you.
                1. Johns
                  Johns 23 October 2017 23: 14 New
                  0
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  (heavy breath)

                  Well at least not exhale. "Merry wind."
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Do you even know what the registration was tied to? To the passport.

                  Bravo! You have transcended yourself. This is one of the most sparkling nonsense, issued by you with the usual smart look.
                  Well, at least I did not tie a residence permit to a tree.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Before the war, the same peasants, if they needed to, quietly removed from their places and moved to the "construction sites of the century" or there simply to the cities.

                  Yeah! As I look, the humor session is not over. This is just the beginning. It turns out that the peasants (who in the USSR did not exist at all, were collective farmers and state farmers, and this is really a big difference) traveled around the USSR as they wanted, when they wanted and where they wanted.
                  You need to issue such sketches in KVN. Succeed greatly.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Moreover, the registration was DESIRABLE, because it gave the person well-known benefits, but it was NOT MANDATORY to work calmly and without registration

                  Even I somehow stopped thinking that this is a session of humor and laughter. It smells of medicine. You can even say, clearly rushing.
                  Not a single comedian can write such simply monstrous nonsense. It is very likely that the opponent has medical problems.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  because industrialization, and working hands were desperately needed.

                  What industrialization in the 40s? Read some book, diplomas.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  that the USSR of the 80s and the pre-war USSR in terms of accounting for people are two very big differences

                  Yes, in the 80s it was freer. But this is only from the beginning of the 70s, not earlier.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  and copies were stored (if at all stored) at the place of issue. In the occupied territories, of course, all this went mostly to the furnace, so after the war - alas and ah. In general ... what to speak with you.

                  Oh, information about the collective farmer, it turns out, was stored in the office of the collective farm. No, well, it’s already no way at all. Is he drunk or something? A person in his right mind and sober memory cannot write such a thing. Or maybe, but he is in this full zero.
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 24 October 2017 18: 41 New
                    +1
                    Well, as always - your template exploded, and to me - wipe the spray :))
                    Quote: Johns
                    It turns out that the peasants (who were not in the USSR at all, were collective farmers and state farmers, and this is really a big difference) traveled around the USSR as they wanted, when they wanted and where they wanted.

                    Firstly, the peasant, so you know, this is a general definition of rural residents involved in cultivating agricultural crops and / or raising livestock. Accordingly, there is no problem in calling the collective farmers or state farmers peasants. This time. The second - yes, the peasants moved through the pre-war USSR quite freely and non-selectively. But the administration of collective farms and state farms, think about it to prevent the peasant from leaving somewhere, the criminal was threatened.
                    You do not know one very simple thing. The USSR at that time was somewhat interested in accounting for the urban population. Therefore, universal passportization and registration were introduced for them. But for the peasant, both a passport and a residence permit were not mandatory.
                    In general, with you, as always - a lot of ambition, zero knowledge. In essence, you cannot argue anything, because you never thought about it
                2. Gransasso
                  Gransasso 23 October 2017 23: 35 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  And of course you will never realize the fact that all these certificates that you mentioned were handed out and copies were stored (if at all stored) at the place of issue




                  You have no idea what you are writing about ... the USSR territory was liberated by the summer of the 44th year basically ... what do you think all the authorities at once did when they returned — all village councils, district executive committees, military commissariats, chairmen of collective farms / state farms, district, NKVD and so on and so forth, if not by counting the subordinate population, wise guy? .... there a maximum of a week counted how many people are in the village, someone to work on a collective farm, someone under arms, someone to shoot, someone to have mercy .... you’re definitely in the USSR lived or only on an Internet walker?
                  1. Alexander Greene
                    Alexander Greene 23 October 2017 23: 59 New
                    +4
                    Quote: Gransasso
                    you just lived in the ussr or just an internet walker?

                    Johns
                    Gransasso
                    Guys, how do you come from that you know everything so "well" about the USSR?
                    1. BMP-2
                      BMP-2 24 October 2017 19: 36 New
                      +2
                      These guys will not hand over their sources of information: they are gentlemen. So to say, intelligent service! yes lol
                  2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 24 October 2017 18: 53 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Gransasso
                    You have no idea what you are writing about ... the USSR territory was liberated by the summer of the 44th year basically ... what do you think all the authorities at once did when they returned — all village councils, district executive committees, military commissariats, chairmen of collective farms / state farms, district, NKVD and so on and so forth as if not by rediscounting the subordinate population, wise guy? ...

                    Do you seriously think that they had nothing more to do? good Do you even know in what year the first post-war census took place? :))))
                    Quote: Gransasso
                    .tam for a week the maximum counted how many people in the village, someone to work on the farm, someone under arms, someone to shoot, someone to have mercy

                    Read at your leisure how much processing the results of the 1939 All-Union Census took in XNUMX :)))) And at the same time - get acquainted with how controversial its results are - underestimating on the one hand, registry - on the other.
                    And you told Jones the tales of "in a week".
                    Quote: Gransasso
                    you just lived in the ussr or just an internet walker?

                    I definitely lived in the USSR, from the 75th I was born.
                3. antivirus
                  antivirus 24 October 2017 08: 06 New
                  +2
                  every Italian and anyone judged by his country and his order - DO NOT DISPUTE WITH THEM.
                  they did not go 3-5 hours from village to village along the lanes. not meeting people-- 20 km between villages, calmly. and this is in the center of Russia. without the Urals and Siberia. and the reindeer herders finally drove to each other for weeks.

                  THEIR COUNTRIES ARE LINEARS. Along one road, everything was built and counting was carried out (census of the Wh) on the rotation of the chariot wheel, then
            3. BMP-2
              BMP-2 24 October 2017 19: 34 New
              +1
              To a person whose nickname is the name of the main negative character in the movie Outpost in the Mountains, logic is not important. He has numbers, and in general - he was prepared! .. laughing
    3. The comment was deleted.
      1. zoolu350
        zoolu350 23 October 2017 01: 25 New
        +5
        And I thought that Manstein fought, and did not walk in these places. Of course, the Slavs of the USSR paid in blood, but the French, Danes, Poles, Czechs surrendered their states without paying much.
        1. Train
          Train 23 October 2017 23: 24 New
          0
          inappropriately, there were the French that fought without disgrace, like the Poles, there are soldiers and there is a mediocre command, the French tankmen showed themselves very well
    4. Just a man
      Just a man 23 October 2017 03: 48 New
      +7
      The wave of pseudo-investigations of the losses of our Motherland is now rising in direct proportion to the success of the RF Ministry of Defense in concretizing and publishing accurate data on sites, the feat of the people, the memory of the people and other databases (Mil. Ru). To date, the study of a huge group under the leadership of Krivosheyev is simply not available today. And this group led the work taking only archival documents as the basis, and not the anti-Soviet fantasies of Solzhenitsyn, rezun and other trash. And not one "specialist" has yet to be found who would refute this data scientifically and based on historical documents. And the fact that the legion has come up here under different flags with pseudo-numbers and conclusions, you just need to score on them. They do not deserve more. And you need to understand who is practicing here in spraying feces. Some are on duty, others because of the complex (as a rule they left, they understand in their hearts that they are not losers with a rotten darling, and for their great satisfaction, if they manage to spit shit in Russia). So compatriots Russians, not our level to stoop to this dandruff.
  2. Cat
    Cat 22 October 2017 07: 47 New
    +5
    Question to the Author! The bottom line is how much!
    Just without demographic formulas, indices and other things, how much the Soviet Union lost during the years of the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945:
    1. Total -.
    2. Of these, peaceful settlement.
    3. Losses in the sun.
    Question two, the official figures of 26,7 million people - is it real data or not? If this is true (or false) why?
    Thank you in advance!
    Although for the title of the article, I personally would shame in your slippers (the author). In Russia, this is not accepted, however.
    1. Monarchist
      Monarchist 22 October 2017 11: 07 New
      +2
      I agree with you: the title is out of place, some kind of theatricality and cunning. Could be called: "Speculations with numbers" or "Once again about the losses in the Second World War"
  3. Basil50
    Basil50 22 October 2017 08: 36 New
    16
    I, the grandson of those who died on the fronts of the GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR, believe only in SOVIET STATISTICS.
    In 1945, the Germans called for boys and old men with women and even invalids to make up for losses in the army, why should I believe the Germans who declare losses of three million, plus or minus another half million?
    If we take the method of calculating losses from liberoids, then the losses of the German army need to include both Dresden and other cities, albeit not so carefully destroyed.
    1. Alekseev
      Alekseev 22 October 2017 11: 20 New
      10
      Quote: Vasily50
      If we take the method of calculating the losses of liberoids, then

      They don’t need to take anything from them, because all the “methods” serve to confirm the goals of the Methodists: they say then they were all fools, commies evil, scoops, etc.
      Well, there were some, but not all. Everything is much more complicated. yes
      The losses of troops and the population in the Great Patriotic War and without liberal speculations are enormous.
      To exaggerate them, and even more so to believe such numbers can only narrow-minded people who do not represent the scale of such numbers in practice.
      Still, such people, “doing nothing more,” I think that, for example, the military unit is completed with a cardboard box with tin soldiers, which are very easy to replace with new losses. Say, teach soldiers and commanders, provide them with weapons and all kinds of allowances, i.e. create new military formations, you can by magic.
      They do not know that with a loss of 30%, a battalion or regiment is no longer able to carry out its mission, and with a 50% loss it is considered defeated ...
      Therefore, “some civilians” do not have the question in their heads: how, if all the units suffer such great losses, the Red Army defeated the Wehrmacht and SS troops and took all the capitals of Germany and the former Austria-Hungary? Forces killed and wounded?
      And also there are no questions about who, in 10 years, restored the USSR after such a destructive war: cripples, migrant workers or able-bodied citizens who survived a truly unprecedented brutal war.
      1. antivirus
        antivirus 22 October 2017 22: 36 New
        0
        I AGREE TO YOU:
        antivirus 3 Today, 22:33
        I do not go into exact calculations
        but where to rank Bandera. Poles in the Anders army (all from the western suburbs, from 39 g to the USSR), the Baltic states of the SS, Vlasovites, Khiva, Crimean Tatars on two (the same people) sides of the fighting, other Caucasians, policemen (after the liberation of territories that fell into different owls "formations" - not always in Magadan) and other enemies of the Red Army, from the group of the USSR ??????????????
        and where are the losses of the Reich allies? —these allies also killed our soldiers, or not yours (who sits on which side the identity matters)
  4. Operator
    Operator 22 October 2017 09: 04 New
    +3
    One d.bil (Ivlev) clumsily calculated, the other d.bil (Zemtsov) presented clumsily, the third d.bil (Litvinenko) clumsily opposes am
  5. andrewkor
    andrewkor 22 October 2017 09: 11 New
    +8
    True, she is the only one: they won the war, they restored the economy, they created the social camp, the rest is from the evil one. Or the expArds vyzhivaetsya or direct order of the enemies of Russia!
  6. chenia
    chenia 22 October 2017 09: 46 New
    15
    Liberasty cannot calm down, well, the Red Army should not fight better than the Wehrmacht. If she reappeared him, then she surely filled up with corpses.
    And to increase losses, two methods are used:

    first- increase the total population of the USSR (then the difference in losses will be more significant). It really doesn’t beat with statistics (but they have an excuse-they say Sovagitprom which should not have faith), but it doesn’t hit with RI statistics (initial numbers). .

    second- reduce natural mortality, or even push it into the list of excess losses.
    1. Cat
      Cat 22 October 2017 14: 50 New
      +8
      In general, you are right! But the trouble is more dramatic in that the losses of the USSR have a stash ratio among military and civilians - 1 to 3 or even 1 to 4. In the following Germany, in terms of Germany’s losses, this ratio has a completely different character: 2 military per 1 civilian, or according to other sources, 3 to 1. A more terrible imbalance among the military and residents of China, but this is a different story and other figures.
      Our misfortune is due to the fact that if we take the conditional losses of fascist Germany - let them 10 million. It was fascist Germany within the borders of September 1938. And the losses of the USSR-about. 27 million, the military losses of Germany will be from 5 to 7 million, and the military losses of the Soviet Union - from 7 to 8 million troops. The data are roughly comparable given the terrible loss of manpower in the first two years of the war. But the devil is in the little things, and the little things are that the German is Ganz, not one came to the place of our Fatherland, Hungarians, Finns, Romanians, Slovaks and other enlightened Europeans fought alongside him, who try not to remember their participation in a bitch! The cumulative losses of slime bites, both on the side and against Germany, lead the denominator of losses on the eastern front to approximate equality. So the index of combat losses from the red army was always many times higher than subsequent ones from the German one. Although one must be fair to the Romanians, who suffered comparable losses both on the side of fascist Germany and against it. It is worth mentioning the Bulgarians, who fought with the Nazis honestly, and before that they tried to sit on two chairs.
      Well, and the last, how many of our prisoners returned home? If we take this indicator and compare it with the living conditions in our captivity. That the effectiveness of the red army will be obvious and undeniable.
      1. Johns
        Johns 22 October 2017 15: 27 New
        +1
        Quote: Kotischa
        27 million, the military losses of Germany will be from 5 to 7 million, and the military losses of the Soviet Union - from 7 to 8 million troops.

        The exact loss data is indicated in the February parliamentary hearings mentioned by the author on the topic “Patriotic education of Russian citizens:“ Immortal regiment ”. Based on the declassified data of the Gosplan of the USSR, the loss figures are as follows:
        - casualties of more than 19 million people.
        - casualties of the civilian population of about 23 million people.
        Total direct losses - 41 million 979 thousand people.
        These figures were not disputed by anyone and based on their source ("closed" data of the USSR State Planning Commission) they should be recognized as final and not subject to ANY doubt. Any "arguments" against them are nothing more than a crafty verbiage. Empty chatter, simply put. The highest leadership of the USSR received the most reliable information of such a plan.
        1. chenia
          chenia 22 October 2017 16: 11 New
          +6
          Quote: Johns
          Based on the declassified data of the Gosplan of the USSR, the loss figures are as follows:


          finally "declassified",. And before that, well, it was impossible at all ?.
          Listen, if someone says, “let's break up a small barn, and we’ll build a three-story mansion from these building materials,” don’t you feel the discrepancy?
          If not? I do not argue further, it is useless.

          We restored the pre-war strength in 1956, and the Germans only in 1970 (the Austrians did not reach the pre-war level at all).
          !9 million military personnel is 17,5 million men of the most childbearing age.
          Civilian population -23 million? And who restored the population (probably you know where the children come from)?
          The question is who is the most vulnerable? I think that children.
          From 1960 to 1970, the population growth of the USSR was -32 million (the largest increase) when the generation was born which was in the war for an average of 5-10 years (that is, it seems to be the most vulnerable generation, but suddenly take it and survive).

          Well, the losses do not hit, the numbers then fall out.

          Do you know the word correlation? it seems not.
          1. Johns
            Johns 22 October 2017 17: 46 New
            +1
            Quote: chenia
            Well, the losses do not hit, the numbers then fall out.

            Another one of those who “know everything better” than the main Soviet accountant, the Central Statistical Bureau of the USSR.
            The numbers are falling out because the CSO subsequently adjusted its "open data" to the official loss figure announced on March 14, 1946. I recall that in total they amounted to 7 million people. 42 million and 7 million, this is a noticeable difference. Therefore, the numbers will never converge. And above all, because of the dubious reliability of the post-war (and pre-war) official Soviet "open" figures.
            Quote: chenia
            We restored the pre-war strength in 1956

            Who told you that?
            Quote: chenia
            From 1960 to 1970, the population growth of the USSR was -32 million.

            Who told you that?
            All your “calculations” are based on the assumptions that the “open” Soviet figures are correct. And who told you that they are faithful?
            1. chenia
              chenia 22 October 2017 18: 16 New
              +3
              Quote: Johns
              All your “calculations” are based on the assumptions that the “open” Soviet figures are correct. And who told you that they are faithful?


              Well, firstly, there is a correlation with the statistics of RI (and there they also lied)
              secondly, the figures correlate with subsequent data, up to the nineties and then in already independent countries.

              А secret data crap, by the way, not officially confirmed. produces from all and previous and all subsequent data.

              Dozens of years rummaged through archives (in secret and even OM). and suddenly (well, purely by chance) found and declassified.
              You yourself are not funny. Yes, and why hide it? The population is more profitable to show than in real life.
              Remember, the liberals (at the dawn of perestroika), speaking of hiding the scale of repression, spoke of overstating the census. And extras who (supposedly real data, underestimated), repressed.
              Well this is somehow logical.

              You catch the main idea, not a loss is classified, but a large population.

              Moreover, they hide it, from the first years of the USSR and from the very beginning it did not hit the population of the Republic of Ingushetia.
              At the same time, for example, an excess decline in Ukraine in 1932-33 is shown, an increase in population growth in 1937 (due to the prohibition of abortion) is shown.
              But the final number of the population is deliberately underestimated.

              Some kind of perverse logic.
              WHAT FOR?
              1. Johns
                Johns 22 October 2017 19: 20 New
                0
                Quote: chenia
                Dozens of years rummaged through archives (in secret and even OM). and suddenly (well, purely by accident) they found and declassified.

                What kind of site?
                One does not know how the state accounting system worked in the USSR. But he writes "articles" on this subject.
                The second does not know how the privacy regime works. But he is also actively "reasoning" on this topic.
                Quote: chenia
                You yourself are not funny.

                No, I'm very sad.
                You need to go into the "flat land" community. There are many who want to deny the obvious. Here are people like you. And V. Litvinenko.
                1. chenia
                  chenia 22 October 2017 19: 53 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Johns
                  The second does not know how the privacy regime works. But he is also actively "reasoning" on this topic.


                  Well, where are we from, in the past an officer with two higher. You know better from those places, well, you yourself "secret" documents.

                  By the way, nothing officially confirmed.
                  1. Johns
                    Johns 22 October 2017 20: 35 New
                    0
                    Quote: chenia
                    officer with two senior

                    Calamburite?
                    1. chenia
                      chenia 22 October 2017 20: 43 New
                      +4
                      Quote: Johns
                      Calamburite?


                      Clearly, do not drive in. Explain laziness.
                      1. antivirus
                        antivirus 22 October 2017 22: 46 New
                        0
                        I read and wonder
                        DNIPER WILL BE THE GREAT RUSSIAN RIVER SOON
                        And the partners are all about the best Bavarian beer in the world.
                        it is the best in the world
                        in a losing country.
      2. chenia
        chenia 22 October 2017 16: 34 New
        +3
        Quote: Kotischa
        a terrible ratio among military and civilians is 1 to 3 or even 1 to 4.


        In general, I believe that civilian casualties are exaggerated. The Nazis scum clearly, but they specifically destroyed only the Jews. Shares of intimidation (for assisting partisans) yes there were. but not more than 1 million people, or even less.
        They died from hostilities, as a rule civilians were hiding or trying to get out of the combat zone. In cities like Leningrad or Stalingrad, the population really suffered seriously, but the exception is more.
        Mainly due to worsening living conditions (hunger, illness)
        But it was the military children who gave the most significant increase in the population of the USSR in the future.

        And if we take that the increase was negative (i.e., decrease), as the difference between the birth rate and natural mortality, then the loss of the civilian population will be- 8-10 million
        1. Cat
          Cat 22 October 2017 17: 08 New
          +3
          You think?
          An example of a simple slide into neighboring Belarus. For anyone, I emphasize any escortion, they will tell you that every fourth resident of the BSSR did not survive the occupation.
          Okay, let's do it simpler my friend from the service of grandfathers (chairman of the Council of Veterans of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Yekaterinburg) Kugach V.S. he recalled his childhood during the war years, as he came from western Ukraine. I got an adult guy goosebumps crawled when he told me what the Nazis did. Communicating on duty with people who survived the war, it is still necessary to wonder how the Soviet people survived in the occupied territories. If for you Soviet Jews, tsigans and others are not people, then "a flag in his hands and a drum on his neck." According to the UN alone, about a million of your compatriots died during the war years at the hands of Ukrainian nationalists. Or are they also Jews and you don’t need to count them?
          The second trouble is hunger. Even those who lived and worked in the rear endured the terrible truth about the war. The war was hungry. In Leningrad alone, we lost over a million inhabitants. What to talk about with you .......
          1. chenia
            chenia 22 October 2017 17: 42 New
            0
            Quote: Kotischa
            If for you Soviet Jews, tsigans and others are not people, then "a flag in his hands and a drum on his neck."


            Why did you break? You, so outraged, the statement of the fact that the Jews were exterminated because they are Jews. So this is not for me. Yes, Jews of the USSR (civilian population) died 1,5 million, it was a targeted destruction. The rest were subjected to executions only for assisting the partisans and as hostages.
            In Belarus, just two factors coincided (where the losses came from) - many Jews lived there (especially the western part) and it was a powerful partisan region.
            Civilians also died from hostilities.
            But most are from hunger and disease.

            I explain. that civilians are lost (8-10 million) less than military (12 million). while the dead (real people) were slightly more than 20-22 million people.

            Emigration from -1,5 to 3 million should be taken into account.
        2. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 22 October 2017 22: 00 New
          +1
          I agree with you. The approximate number of deaths at the Second World War: 14 million military personnel and 10 million civilians.
      3. Train
        Train 22 October 2017 17: 59 New
        0
        All the main tasks, with rare exceptions (Romanians in Sevastopol for example) were solved by the Germans, neither Italians nor Romanians almost everywhere, for the most part, they solved the problems. 10 million dead at the fronts ... a terrible figure ... more than 4 million were lost in captivity Now calculate the main losses by the years of the Second World War, and you will understand that the figures of the MO are a blatant lie. In the 2000s, the Germans handed us documents on prisoners of war with photos and prints as much as 5 million !!!! and they say that this is not all, so ...
        1. chenia
          chenia 22 October 2017 18: 22 New
          +1
          Quote: Zug
          as much as 5 million!


          Where is the crime? We recognize that we had 6 million in captivity. and 3,6 died there.
          And about 1 million returned from captivity.
          Many, to survive, went to Khivi (the best option), and then to the ROA. and already in the USSR did not seek to return.
          1. Train
            Train 22 October 2017 18: 31 New
            +1
            And ...? If only 4 million unfortunate people remained there, then you think that the remaining 6 died on the fronts? How many did they die near Moscow? Rzhev? Stalingrad? The Leningrad Front, and so on, more than these 6 million will be more than recruited for the release other countries ... No need to be 7 spans in the forehead that the Red Army suffered terrible losses. Historians say that they spend half their lives on calculations and archives agree that the total losses starting from 35 million! and then, as they themselves recognize, no one will ever tell you and never count ...
            1. chenia
              chenia 22 October 2017 19: 10 New
              +7
              Quote: Zug
              No need to be 7 spans in the forehead that the Red Army suffered terrible losses.


              And tried to bring down the balance
              in 1941-197 million
              in 1945-170 million
              annual growth of about-3 million (growth is fertility minus natural) mortality) - then in 1945 we should be 209 million

              Hence it waned. 209 million -170 million = 39 million (here, a shot from the Czech Republic screams about false official data). Indeed, the most intelligent liberals have realized that the population LACKS show super-huge losses.

              But 39 million take into account the unborn12-13 million (birth rate has halved), or even that 15 million

              that remains then 26 million losses. and of them 1,5-3 million emigration.

              Then the dead will be- 23 млн, and if you take the figure of the unborn 15 million then the figure 20-22 million[b] [/ b]. (Khrushchev’s will be the most faithful.) Then 8-10 million civilians, the rest are soldiers, and 3,6 died in captivity.

              By the way, Stalin gave the figure of 7 million dead in the FIGHT against the Nazis (meaning dead in battle ..

              Here try to refute.
              1. Train
                Train 22 October 2017 19: 17 New
                0
                Why the hell am I? calculate the loss by year !!!!!!! more than 4 in captivity died !!! - and then count !!!!!! - the total loss of more than a million near Moscow !!!!! Why do I need demography of the USSR? 600 thousand died for Poland !!! more than 300 for the Baltic states, here you have arithmetic, what 10 million red army! -This is nonsense !!!!
                I am not Liberoid and all that, but I have to face the truth and learn from mistakes!
                1. chenia
                  chenia 22 October 2017 19: 43 New
                  +4
                  Quote: Zug
                  Why the hell am I?

                  Logical.
                  Question-And what the hell got into a dispute?
                  They could have kept silent if there were no arguments.
                  1. Train
                    Train 23 October 2017 06: 30 New
                    0
                    I brought a bunch of arguments there, consider demographics from Rurik as well, generally
                2. antivirus
                  antivirus 22 October 2017 22: 52 New
                  +1
                  600 thousand died for Poland !!! more than 300 for the Baltic states, here's arithmetic-

                  maybe Silesia and Pomerania were in Poland? and where were the army hospitals during the storming of Berlin buried? maybe in Poland?
                  Or can only be counted by caps?
                  1. Train
                    Train 23 October 2017 16: 07 New
                    0
                    Yes, they are given that the MO feeds the hamsters, they don’t choke, then even the battles from 41 to 45 are counted, and then the poor people are recruited, not counting those 4 million unfortunate prisoners. For Rzhev, only different numbers died but one bloodier than the other ... Vyazma alone is what they say-they say for the Dnieper only under 350 or something they put thousands of lives ...
              2. Johns
                Johns 22 October 2017 19: 51 New
                0
                Quote: chenia
                And tried to bring down the balance
                in 1941-197 million
                in 1945-170 million

                Again the same with its "balance". But who told you that the initial figures you quoted are correct? Where did you suck them from? From a finger, I hope?
                Quote: chenia
                By the way, Stalin gave the figure of 7 million dead in the FIGHT against the Nazis (meaning dead in battle ..

                Another mythmaker sought out. They gave data on total losses. But they turned out to be in fact not 7, but 19 million people.
                Here is the phrase in the newspaper Pravda: “As a result of the German invasion, the Soviet Union irretrievably lost about seven million people in the battles with the Germans, and also thanks to the German occupation and the theft of Soviet people into German penal servitude.”
                Didn't know the truth? They knew very well. But this is "socialism", my friend. So the system worked.
                1. chenia
                  chenia 22 October 2017 20: 01 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Johns
                  Again the same with its "balance". But who told you that the initial figures you quoted are correct? Where did you suck them from? From a finger, I hope?


                  I did not understand the couple. The source data is official. And you pumped it somewhere (now grandososia is in fashion).
                  Foreign housing must be worked out.
                  1. Johns
                    Johns 22 October 2017 20: 39 New
                    0
                    Quote: chenia
                    I did not understand the couple.

                    You did not understand the couple. You do not seem to understand anything at all.
                    Quote: chenia
                    The source data is official.

                    That's the shakiness of these numbers, you did not understand.
                    Quote: chenia
                    Foreign housing must be worked out.

                    What, and Ukrainian too? Do you have any difficulties with this?
  7. Yevgeny Viktorovich
    Yevgeny Viktorovich 22 October 2017 09: 54 New
    0
    I’ll also insert my “five cents”. The “numbers” indicated in the article, such as 170 557 098, are not such. This number, consisting of NINE digits 170557098. And so the article caused a strange feeling of dissatisfaction in my brain. I would like to see numbers in the region of billions.
  8. Olgovich
    Olgovich 22 October 2017 10: 35 New
    +5
    For the title of the article
    Molodetskaya decline
    its minus right away.
    In terms of content, it would be interesting to read Ivlev’s answer: for example, the figure of the children born by the author as an axiom in the war has not been proved.
  9. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 22 October 2017 10: 42 New
    +3
    "The real losses of the Red Army, apparently, did not exceed nine million people." ///

    The author refutes in detail the figure of 19,5 million, but absolutely does not support anything
    mine - 9 million. Why? I believe that if he, like Ivlev, gives detailed
    layouts, then errors can be easily found in them.

    "The Wehrmacht should have been missing at least 9,5 million people.
    But his real losses on the Soviet-German front, according to modern German
    data were less than two times. "///

    Consequently, the author draws a startling conclusion "and the irretrievable losses of the Red Army in two
    more than once less than the figure calculated by Ivlev, 19,5 million, that is, no more than 9,5 million people "

    What is the connection? There have been wars in the world and the difference in losses between the parties in 10-20 times is easy.
    1. Glory1974
      Glory1974 22 October 2017 19: 03 New
      0
      What is the connection? There have been wars in the world and the difference in losses between the parties in 10-20 times is easy.

      Yes, I agree with you, some clumsy assumption. immediately a question arises for the competence of the author of the article.
      1. antivirus
        antivirus 22 October 2017 22: 57 New
        +1
        according to Dresden, how many aglík peacekeepers recognize the losses in the city from the bombing7 and how many according to German data?
      2. BMP-2
        BMP-2 24 October 2017 19: 56 New
        +1
        Well, actually there is a huge difference between “competence”, as possessing information and problem solving skills, and “competence”, as a set of rights and powers that define the boundaries within which a person can make decisions. Compare: “this accountant is competent” (that is, he knows his business well and can calculate without errors) and “in his competence is the question of calculating the loss and population growth” (i.e. he has the right and is obliged to count only these figures )
    2. antivirus
      antivirus 22 October 2017 22: 56 New
      +1
      antivirus 3 Today, 22:33
      I do not go into exact calculations
      but where to rank Bandera. Poles in the Anders army (all from the western suburbs, from 39 g to the USSR), the Baltic states of the SS, Vlasovites, Khiva, Crimean Tatars on two (the same people) sides of the fighting, other Caucasians, policemen (after the liberation of territories that fell into different owls "formations" - not always in Magadan) and other enemies of the Red Army, from the group of the USSR ??????????????
      and where are the losses of the Reich allies? —these allies also killed our soldiers, or not yours (who sits on which side the identity matters)
  10. Monarchist
    Monarchist 22 October 2017 11: 16 New
    +1
    Quote: andrewkor
    True, she is the only one: they won the war, they restored the economy, they created the social camp, the rest is from the evil one. Or the expArds vyzhivaetsya or direct order of the enemies of Russia!

    And there may also be such an option: show off in public, and there you look and I like some kind of zakordonnuyu fund. Those Funds don't like silly croaks in those Funds either.
  11. groks
    groks 22 October 2017 13: 03 New
    +3
    The topic has already been chewed in porridge. There is nothing to talk about.
    But it's time to overclock the workers of the frantic printer for such statements.
  12. moskowit
    moskowit 22 October 2017 13: 10 New
    +5
    But then he began to actively use the figures he cited to discredit the Red Army and expose the command of the thesis of the “excessive price of Victory” (Igor Chubais in the “60 Minutes” program, Pavel Gutiontov in the article “Victory Bills”, in various interviews and etc.). There are no public refutations of the "new" figures of the USSR’s casualties in the war either from the Federal State Statistics Service, the Russian Ministry of Defense, or professional historians.

    These grant-eaters, pouring water into the mill of all-embracing Russophobia and hatred of the country that grew them, in their dazzle, lost the ability to elementary account that any third-grader owns .... They would, these pseudo-historians, at least add up the loss numbers declared by them.
    32 million died in the camps ...
    5 million personnel army captured ...
    40 million died in the war ...
    One would like to ask, And who then defeated fascism ??? It was no one to fight .... Flaunt the eyes of the citizens of the enemies of the people ...
    They do not even distinguish such concepts as irretrievable losses and sanitary losses ...
    Any sane person, using available, well-known numbers, can determine the losses in the Great War ...
    Take the initial population of the USSR at the beginning of the war ... 170 million. It is known to all ... Divide in half, counting half the women ... It turns out 85 million, these are men ... Divide in half by the mobilization age of both children and the elderly (called up to 50 years) ... It turns out 42 million. The number is amateurish superficial, but as you can see it is close to the number of mobilization resource. As you know, during the war years, 34 million was called upon .... In the national economy, much more worked, though older people and women and adolescents ...
    But there are industries where labor of men of military age is simply necessary ...
    Now let's take two well-known numbers ... About 15 million people were awarded the medal "For Victory over Fascist Germany" ... This is almost half of the total number of those called up ... They awarded only the living, and even then not all ... It turns out about 15-17 million died. Everlasting memory! Eternal Glory!
    About 16,5 million people were awarded the medal "For Valiant Labor in the Second World War". Naturally, not all rear workers also received this award ... You can also take about 2 millions of people who were awarded the For Japan medal, half of which was the personnel of the Trans-Baikal and Far Eastern districts ...
    1. Johns
      Johns 22 October 2017 15: 39 New
      +2
      Quote: moskowit
      One would like to ask, And who then defeated fascism ???

      And in Google to request weak?
      If weak, then the Anglo-Saxons defeated fascism. They are in the summer of 1943. first landed in Sicily, and then on the Apennine peninsula, after which fascism quickly surrendered. True, then in the north of Italy the Germans made a certain second series of fascism. But even in April 1945, the Anglo-Saxons slammed it.
      Quote: moskowit
      Fan the eyes of the citizens of the enemies of the People ...

      1. What kind of people?
      2. What are the enemies?
      1. moskowit
        moskowit 22 October 2017 16: 37 New
        +5
        Personnel writing under the flag of the country armed with almost a third of the Wehrmacht during the war of the European Union, led by Nazi Germany against the USSR, engage in polemics about the losses of the Soviet People, to put it mildly, not ethically !!!
        By June 1941, the German units were almost a third equipped with Czech weapons. The Czech hands assembled a quarter of all tanks, 26 percent of trucks and 40 percent of small arms of the German army. According to the German War Economy Center, on March 31 of 1944, the Fuhrer received weapons and equipment from almost 857 billions of 13 million Reichsmarks from the shops of 866 Czech plants.

        According to German sources, in the 1944 year, the Czech Republic monthly (!) Delivered to Germany about 11 thousand pistols, 30 thousand rifles, more than 3 thousand machine guns, 15 million cartridges, about 100 self-propelled artillery pieces, 144 thousand infantry guns, 180 thousand more anti-aircraft guns shells, nearly a million shells for anti-aircraft guns, from 620 to 600 aircraft bomb wagons, 900 million signal munitions, 0,5 tons of gunpowder and 1000 thousand explosives. As for Czech labor productivity, it was not inferior to that of German workers.
        Interestingly, the main workshops of the Prague military factories stood up only on 5 of May 1945.
        In the electoral memory of the Czechs, a half-kilometer ambulance train, “a gift of the Czech people to the fighting Reich,” somehow did not “set aside”. Forgotten parcels with warm knitted gloves - “from mothers” to the Stalingrad “cauldron”, and friendly Nazi greetings from classy Czech workers, industry leaders sent to health camps for hard work for the victory of German weapons created by their skillful hands ... which kills Russians, Poles, Jews, Americans and English ...
        Incidentally, it was precisely the Skoda Plzen factories at the very end of the war that would become almost the only source of weapons for the Wehrmacht.

        So here, my dear ....
        1. Johns
          Johns 22 October 2017 17: 52 New
          0
          Quote: moskowit
          writing under the flag of a country that armed almost a third of the Wehrmacht during the war of the European Union, led by fascist Germany against the USSR, engaging in polemics about the losses of the Soviet People, to put it mildly, is not ethical !!!

          Who else will tell me what is ethical and what is not? Writing under the flag of a non-existent country? There are no arguments, so keep quiet. So it will be wiser.
          Quote: moskowit
          So here, my dear ....

          That’s what absolutely no one cares about today is what you are so verbose born of. I also give you a long list of what the USSR supplied Germany during its war with the Anglo-Saxons (started on 03.09.1939/XNUMX/XNUMX) I can roll out. And so what?
          1. moskowit
            moskowit 22 October 2017 19: 36 New
            +3
            "Aggressive beast, well, pure Pharaoh ...." V. Vysotsky ...
            Unfortunately, I do not know how to talk with deafblind ...
            So, au revoir cher ami ...
            1. Johns
              Johns 22 October 2017 20: 41 New
              0
              Quote: moskowit
              Unfortunately, I do not know how to talk with deafblind ...

              Only with "ideologically correct"?
        2. Oilpartizan
          Oilpartizan 22 October 2017 21: 13 New
          0
          Under the Economic Agreement with fascist Germany, which became a logical continuation of the Molotov-Ribbentropp Pact, from September 1939 only the USSR armed the Wehrmacht, supplying food and raw materials.
          This allowed the bloodless war with Poland in Germany to “build muscle” and to continue with Stalin to continue what began in September 1939 - to divide Europe.
          Hitler attacked the Benelux and France, Stalin - the Baltic states and Romania.
          Two friends - red and brown.
          1. zoolu350
            zoolu350 23 October 2017 01: 55 New
            +2
            How can we equip the Wehrmacht with food and raw materials? Armed with tanks, guns, rifles (according to your logic, the Wehrmacht armed the Red Army from 1939 to 1941. for the supply of weapons really were).
            The Wehrmacht during the 2 weeks of the war with the Rzeczpospolita of course greatly "bleached". The owners of the Fed began to share Europe with Hitler in 1938. A bunch of brown friends. Hitler did not attack France; she was the first to declare war on him on September 3, 1939. Stalin only returned what belongs to Russia.
      2. Glory1974
        Glory1974 22 October 2017 19: 08 New
        +5
        If weak, then the Anglo-Saxons defeated fascism.

        True, neither Churchill nor Roosevelt would agree with you.
        the first said that the main part of the Nazi troops were grind on the eastern front. And the second said that the equipment and weapons supplied under Lend-Lease in the USSR are used more efficiently than in England: the enemy’s weapons are destroyed per unit of delivered weapons. Therefore, supplies to the USSR must be increased, since there is a greater economic effect.
        1. Johns
          Johns 22 October 2017 19: 59 New
          0
          Quote: glory1974
          the first said that the main part of the Nazi troops were grind on the eastern front.

          The only trouble is that the "Nazi troops" have nothing to do with the fascists. Just because fascism was in Italy. And in Germany there was Nazism. And the Nazis.
          However, there were also fascists on the Eastern Front. As well as phalangists, iron guards and other trifles. But this is just a trifle, and they are not particularly worth mentioning. And in 1943 all the fascists on the Eastern Front ended. Italy capitulated and withdrew from the war. Together with the Nazis.
          1. Glory1974
            Glory1974 22 October 2017 20: 09 New
            +6
            However, there were also fascists on the Eastern Front.

            If you were in Russia, you would know that our people do not understand shit varieties. And he lets all the invaders into fertilizers, the cardinal’s musketeers, the Nazis or the Nazis.
            By the way, in the song "Get up a huge country" there is a line: "With fascist power it is dark, with a cursed horde."
            Write also that the author of the song did not understand political parties of that time. laughing
            1. Johns
              Johns 22 October 2017 21: 09 New
              0
              Quote: glory1974
              Write also that the author of the song did not understand political parties of that time.

              Well understood. There was just one unpleasant nuisance. The fact is that before the war, the Nazis in Pravda and other Bolshevik writings were exhibited as very good guys. And especially since the fall of 1939, when the damned imperialists (i.e. the Anglo-Saxons) with the Boschs attacked these very Nazis.
              At the same time, the fascists from the time of Spain were bad boys. It may be even worse than the imperialists, i.e. Anglo-Saxons.
              So the simple Soviet propaganda said. And here 22.06.1941/03.09.1939/XNUMX such a turn. What to tell people? Sprinkle ashes on your head and say that “we were wrong, the Nazis are really bad guys”? In no case, after all, a grubby Georgian by the name of Dzhugashvili was always right, in everything and in any situation. Therefore, the Nazis smoothly and ideologically correctly did not become the Nazis at all, but the Nazi invaders. Those. bad Germans, German fascists. And as if good before German boys, the Nazis, somehow so smoothly forgotten. Just dropped out of the official vocabulary. And everything fell into place, the Germans turned from good to bad. Changing only the name. IN USSR. And the world still fought against Nazism and the Nazis. Right from XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX And also against the Nazis, the Iron Guards, and other small riffraffs who had taken to them.
              Of course, this is only an assumption. The assumption of why the whole world fought against Nazism and the Nazis. And only the Soviet Union fought against the "Nazi invaders."
              1. Glory1974
                Glory1974 22 October 2017 21: 57 New
                +3
                So the simple Soviet propaganda said.


                And again, Sir Winston Churchill disagrees with you. "The state has no permanent allies, but has permanent interests."
                Therefore, now we have no enemies, but whoever does not come to our land, he will become an adversary, no matter who he was before.
                Germans turned from good to bad. Changing only the name.

                The Germans came to 41 and became mortal enemies when they began to kill us, and not changing their name. Although before that they had joint trade. They would sit at home, no one would touch them. Such a simple psychology.
      3. Operator
        Operator 22 October 2017 19: 41 New
        +2
        Quote: Johns
        Fascism was defeated by the Anglo-Saxons .... 1. What people? 2. What are the enemies?

        Johns is a characteristic representative of the enemies of the Russian people.

        "Red Army come, restore order," is a Russian proverb.
        1. Gransasso
          Gransasso 22 October 2017 19: 54 New
          +1
          Quote: Operator
          Quote: Johns
          Fascism was defeated by the Anglo-Saxons .... 1. What people? 2. What are the enemies?

          Johns is a characteristic representative of the enemies of the Russian people.

          "Red Army come, restore order," is a Russian proverb.



          Johns, unlike you, a competent person and correctly answered the question Who defeated fascism ..... if his opponents were literate, you would know that fascism was in Italy ..... and Italy won Anglo-Saxons .....
          1. Operator
            Operator 22 October 2017 21: 01 New
            +3
            Quote: Gransasso
            Italy defeated exactly what the Anglo-Saxons

            And Berlin, therefore, took the Poles laughing

            Damn, before you taught us Soviet statutory reporting, you first learned the history of the country whose flag is located on your profile picture - Italian fascism was defeated by German National Socialism on September 8, 1943, when Germany occupied Italy from the north to the armistice south of Rome. during Operation Axis.

            Until April 17, 1945, the Germans held all of Northern Italy, putting with the device on the Anglo-Saxons, and at the same time on all the so-called Italian "Resistance" (God forgive me). The Germans began to withdraw troops from Italy only the day after the assault on Berlin by the Red Army.
            1. Gransasso
              Gransasso 22 October 2017 21: 12 New
              0
              Your knowledge of the history of Italy is even sadder than Soviet statistics ..
            2. Johns
              Johns 22 October 2017 21: 49 New
              0
              Quote: Operator
              And Berlin, therefore, took the Poles

              The Poles did not take Berlin, but a lot of them took part in his assault. And a lot of them died there. And in general, the Polish Army (Soviet satellite) was very numerous. Indeed, in Poland, after it was occupied by the Red Army, active recruitment to the Polish Army was carried out.
        2. Johns
          Johns 22 October 2017 21: 12 New
          0
          Quote: Operator
          Johns is a characteristic representative of the enemies of the Russian people.

          Really? "And who are the judges?"
          Quote: Operator
          "Red Army come, restore order," is a Russian proverb.

          Those. "come" and "move", do you think this is in Russian?
          1. Operator
            Operator 22 October 2017 21: 19 New
            +1
            Quote: Johns
            "come" and "move", do you think this is in Russian?

            Red Army, so as not to get up twice, and teach sarcasm to understand.
            1. Johns
              Johns 22 October 2017 21: 50 New
              0
              Quote: Operator
              Red Army, so as not to get up twice, and teach sarcasm to understand.

              Learn Russian. Useful.
              1. Operator
                Operator 22 October 2017 21: 57 New
                +2
                Forget Russian, learn Hebrew.
                1. Johns
                  Johns 22 October 2017 22: 46 New
                  0
                  Quote: Operator
                  Forget Russian, learn Hebrew.

                  Do you think it's time?
                  Where do you teach? Do not share the address?
                  1. Operator
                    Operator 22 October 2017 23: 50 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Johns
                    is it time?

                    Yeah - with your abilities for the arrival of the Red Army, master reading with a dictionary.
                    1. Johns
                      Johns 23 October 2017 00: 04 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Operator
                      Yeah - with your abilities for the arrival of the Red Army, master reading with a dictionary.

                      1. As soon as you give me a time machine, I will immediately begin to teach.
                      2. I will not teach Hebrew, but Yiddish. Hebrew in the days of the Red Army was not in use.
    2. antivirus
      antivirus 24 October 2017 15: 39 New
      0
      according to the data of the wounded and those who returned to duty + who died in hospitals, what proportions?
      with Germany (Austria in PM) + Hungarians + Ital + Romanians + Spaniards + other volunteers against the USSR
      how many went through hospitals?
      this is another argument against 42 or 65 million.
      in 1989 they threw "there were 140 million repressed" - for 30 years, NOBODY HAVE FOUND THEM IN HEATS AND SALES + BATH + PERSONAL CASE + PROPORTIONS OF GUARDS FROM THE NUMBER CONCLUDED IN A SPECIFIC PERIMETER.
  13. Gransasso
    Gransasso 22 October 2017 13: 14 New
    +1
    The figure of 19,5 million dead Soviet servicemen, the data of the State Planning Commission based on the calculations of the Central Statistical Bureau ... and to whom the Central Statistical Bureau submits to the administrative-bureaucratic hierarchy, has absolutely no meaning ... this is an excuse for stupid people to divert conversation from numbers to balabolism .. .


    The Central Statistical Bureau made calculations specifically for the State Planning Commission, regardless of which structure it was in ... moreover, the statistics are accurate .. not for the people .... The State Planning Commission just needed to know how many millions pairs of calico shorts of the “Kolkhoz” lineup had to be released year for example ...
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 22 October 2017 13: 35 New
      +6
      Quote: Gransasso
      .. The state plan then definitely needed to know how many millions of pairs of calico briefs of the "Kolkhoznye" lineup needed to be released on 1946 for example ...

      What could you not have come up with better? And since when have cowards considered couples?
      1. Gransasso
        Gransasso 22 October 2017 14: 10 New
        0
        Quote: mordvin xnumx
        What could you not have come up with better?



        I can shift an example for footcloths ... if it is closer and dearer to you
        1. Train
          Train 22 October 2017 18: 06 New
          +4
          it is also necessary to calculate how many Italians our tankers rammed into the ground, they say they cleaned them for more than a month, then grandfathers and grandmothers couldn’t remove them, they brought out rot
        2. Cat
          Cat 22 October 2017 20: 24 New
          +5
          Quote: Gransasso
          Quote: mordvin xnumx
          What could you not have come up with better?



          I can shift an example for footcloths ... if it is closer and dearer to you

          Do not be shy! Go to the "thong." The only trouble was that the wars of the “New Rome” were red. Therefore, when the "woe-heroes" waved their charred portions, the Red Army men did not always realize that they were surrendering! The result was logical.
          From a conversation with a WWII veteran on May 9, 2012. As part of the MPP classes with l / s.
          “There is such a stick called a“ shovel, ”there is such a nation of“ nitalyashki. ”The girls and I in August (1942) dug ditches, dugouts (events near Stalingrad) a tank and two cars drove up here. And there are“ nitaliashki children. ”Of men with we were only a lame old man, a watchman from the hospital, with a “gun rusty” weapon, and we with shovels, crowbars and coils. The watchman drove us into the ditch, and he only managed to shoot him twice, and they killed him (after the conversation I I realized that it was about a wedge heel, not a tank.) Well, the nvs girls, about 100 - 150 people, and about 15-17 people in all. So they "herods" didn’t come up with something and started to catch us and "grow strong." We first in roar, and then grabbed the shovels, how they started to knead them, they shoot at us, and we crowd them .... They put them all there, they’re about ten of our girls, and grandfather Semyon, and we all of them " death with our sticks. "We buried our and strangers in the ditch, bandaged our wounded and went towards the Volga. Only on that bank of the Volga did I understand" the enemy is nearby, the enemy is here "and another I have no choice how to go and fight.
          From the autumn of 1942 to the spring of 1945, this funny little grandmother as a nurse passed from Stalingrad to Prague !!!
          Question from the audience Roza Nikolaevna, but where did the tank go? So they left the little one, and the cars left. Today it’s all the girls behind the wheel, and then none of us all knew how to ride. We even fools threw weapons, shovels took away the good with us, and threw guns.
          So, catch your assessment of “the sons of proud Rome” from the lips of “the grandmother of God’s dandelion Rosa Nikolaevna” - “nitalyashki”, “Herods”, “strong men” and “killers”! And the grandmother was definitely fighting and knew what she was saying - from the whole "iconostasis" on her chest, the battered "two orders of the red banner" and "two medals for military services" stood out especially.
          So you can "puff" further, but the descendants of rapists and murderers have already been evaluated!
          I have the honor!
          1. Gransasso
            Gransasso 22 October 2017 20: 30 New
            0
            Is the supply of collective farm tales exhausted or amuse the impressionable audience with something else? ....
            1. Cat
              Cat 22 October 2017 21: 00 New
              +6
              Above you have already been reminded of the "manure variety" on the boot of the Appeninsky peninsula. So the fact that these are not our fathers and grandfathers at 41 came with arms in hand to sunny Italy, and you came to us in Russia. So there is more reason to love you with us than you. Although I now understand why all the neighboring countries hate you: from France to Croatia.
              And note! It was you who came to us with a "bucket of slops", and not we to you. History repeats itself!
      2. Cat
        Cat 22 October 2017 14: 55 New
        +2
        A pair of underpants?
        Yes, you were given one right advice and one dirty advice to them!
  14. Train
    Train 22 October 2017 17: 43 New
    +1
    If you just take and go over only the main milestones of the Second World War and even calculate the losses in the main operations according to the data of the Moscow Defense Ministry, you can understand that the Moscow Defense League no longer knows where it is true-the Moscow Defense Ministry juggles figures of losses from year to year as a clown with pins — this is usual for you create on the basis of army units special units that would look for the remains of soldiers .. If only in 41-45 years more than 6 million were captured and more than 4 remained there forever! -It remains that we lost about 6 million of the Red Army in the war. Count all respected Moles all the main battles and you will understand that your data-MO is a complete nonsense. Loss, as many historians from 35 and above say, or rather no one can already count, the calculation during the war and after was disgusting, as always in Russia ...
    1. Glory1974
      Glory1974 22 October 2017 19: 13 New
      +1
      MO as it gave the official loss figure at the end of the 80's, it doesn’t voice others. Then by the way, on the wave of perestroika, the commission worked for several years. Unlike any conjuncturists who consider a couple of millions there, a couple here.
      The official figure is about 8 mln. 700 thousand troops.
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 22 October 2017 22: 15 New
        +2
        The tendency is now to "equalize" the losses of the Red Army and the German Army to 1: 1.
        Under this ultimate goal - all the rigging statistics. Accordingly, the result is an overstatement of civilian casualties.
        To me (by comparison of different sources) the figures of military losses of 13-15 million and civilian losses of 9-10 million seem realistic.
        But 19 million military losses, in my opinion, are too much.
      2. Train
        Train 23 October 2017 16: 17 New
        0
        No-1 Umor serviceman ....
  15. Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene 22 October 2017 20: 06 New
    +4
    About the losses

    The ideological war against socialism continues in order to diminish the significance of the Victory of the Soviet people in the Great Patriotic War, another dances of blood began, and the number of its victims continues to be revised, of course, upward.

    So the deputy of the State Duma of Russia Zemtsov said that the total population decline of the USSR in 1941–1945 was more than 52 million 812 thousand people, referring to the declassified data of the USSR State Planning Committee.

    It is interesting to what declassified data of the USSR State Planning Commission Zemtsov refers ?! The State Planning Committee of the USSR except, as the data of the Statistical Office of the Narkhoz of the USSR, has no other data, and cannot be. The figure is 52 million 812 thousand people, this figure invented by the State Duma deputy Zemtsov, and not by the Statistical Office of the USSR.
    We make elementary calculations. According to the Central Statistical Office, the population of the USSR
    as of January 1, 1940 amounted to 191,7 million people,
    as of January 1, 1950 amounted to 178,5 million people.
    Before and after the war, according to statistics, the number of inhabitants of the USSR on average increased by 3 million.
    Therefore, we consider
    in 1941, the population was 191,7 million + 3 million = 194,7 million people.
    We consider the increase in population for 1946-1949. 3 million x 4 years = 12 million
    from here we get that
    in 1945, in the USSR, the population was 178,5 million - 12 million = 166,5 million people.
    Thus, the total population decline in the USSR during the war years from 1941 to 1945 is
    194,7 million -166,5 million = 28,2 million people

    28 million !!! And not 52 million.
    1. Gransasso
      Gransasso 22 October 2017 20: 42 New
      0
      Quote: Alexander Green
      We make elementary calculations. According to the Central Statistical Office, the population of the USSR
      as of January 1, 1940 amounted to 191,7 million people,
      as of January 1, 1950 amounted to 178,5 million people.
      Before and after the war, according to statistics, the number of inhabitants of the USSR on average increased by 3 million.
      Therefore, we consider
      in 1941, the population was 191,7 million + 3 million = 194,7 million people.



      You are engaged in filka’s diploma ... if only because after January 1, 1940 the Baltic States and Moldova joined the USSR ... where is it reflected in your clumsy mathematics? .... and why January 1, 1940? ... and not January 1 1941 for example ... what, did the CSB only work every five years? .... and so that is, the CSB archives where there are exact numbers and not your cheating with applied arithmetic ...




      According to the Central Administration of National Economic Accounting of the USSR State Planning Commission, as of July 1, 1941, the country had a civilian population of 199.920.100 * people. (RGAE-1562-20-241-80ob). In addition, 5.082.305 people served in the USSR Armed Forces. (publication of the Marshal of the Soviet Union M.V. Zakharov in 1968 based on documents: TsAMO RF-15A-2245-83-1, 25, I draw attention to the canceled neck "Secret" on the title page of the book of the marshal). The USSR Armed Forces included the number of the Workers 'and Peasants' Red Army, Navy, troops of the NKVD of the USSR and paramilitary groups of other people's commissariats, which were on the balance of the People’s Commissariat of Defense. The military personnel of the USSR Armed Forces were not included in the civilian population of the USSR, shown by the regional departments of the State Planning Commission. They were extraterritorial and tied to military districts and fleets, deployed in several regions each. The regional bodies of the Gosplan carried out accounting only for civilians, and the Red Army, RKVMF, NKVD - according to their contingents, in addition to the information of the Gosplan. The territorial subdivisions of NPOs, NKVMF, NKVD did not submit current reports for each 1st day of the month to the bodies of the USSR State Planning Committee. This is an axiom. The reverse point of view is the cornerstone of the lie that has been replicated for 27 years. See a special post on this subject, including documents from the 1939 census. Also see postscript in part 5 of the article. It gives a very revealing calculation, disavowing speculation about the inclusion of the personnel of the USSR Armed Forces in the information of the State Planning Committee of the USSR on 01.07.1941/01.07.1945/XNUMX and XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX.

      The total number of USSR citizens at the beginning of the war was 205.002.405, and not 196,7 million, according to the state commission. Having underestimated the population of the USSR, the commission underestimated its overall decrease. Even if you remove the size of the USSR Armed Forces, then in this case the population of the USSR is 3,22 million people. more commission data after "moves".

      Copies of documents:

      The statement of the population of the regions of all republics and the entire USSR as of 01.01.1941/01.07.1941/01.08.1941, 01.10.1941/1562/20 241/80/2 and 3/XNUMX/XNUMX (RGAEob) - in the statement there are only XNUMX sheets of A format with revolutions, below final


      According to the USSR State Planning Committee, the civilian population July 1, 1945 - 151.165.200 people.

      Sources:
      RGAE-1562-20-564, l. 46, 47, 47ob
      RGAE-1562-20-565, l. 116, 239
      RGAE-1562-20-566, l. 13, 14, 40, 41, 57, 81, 98, 99, 125
      RGAE-1562-20-567, l. 61, 130ob, 161, 181, 204
      RGAE-1562-20-568, l. 98, 207 (copies of documents below are placed alphabetically in the Latin name of the scan).

      .
      Now do math ... and argue with the archives ...
      1. Johns
        Johns 22 October 2017 22: 02 New
        0
        Quote: Gransasso
        Total citizens of the USSR at the beginning of the war - 205.002.405 people.

        Quote: Gransasso
        According to the USSR State Planning Committee, the civilian population as of July 1, 1945 was 151.165.200.

        We consider: 205.002.405 - 151.165.200 = 53 837 205 people. According to all the same declassified data, the total population decline of the USSR in 1941-45. amounted to more than 52 million 812 thousand people. The numbers more or less converge.
        But it's not that. The fact is that among those who participated in the hearings, there are no objections to the figures given at the hearings. But people of all kinds participated in them. So, the presented documents of the USSR State Planning Commission did not cause any doubts. Unlike the "experts" of this site.
        A quarter of the country's population. It's just some kind of PPC. Where is that medieval plague? Some are now writing, "We can repeat." Do they even understand what they intend to repeat?
        1. Glory1974
          Glory1974 22 October 2017 22: 28 New
          +4
          The fact is that among those who participated in the hearings, there are no objections to the figures given at the hearings.

          Because you are tormented to answer all conjunctuaries. There are official figures of Moscow Region, no one has officially denied them. Pseudo-scientific calculations of a million there, two here from the works of the Sokolov-Pershanin-Rezunov can be composed in dozens every day.
          The commission considered for several years, several dozen people worked, and one refutes everything. On what basis?
          1. Johns
            Johns 22 October 2017 23: 18 New
            0
            Quote: glory1974
            Because you are tormented to answer all conjunctuaries.

            You do not understand the scale of the event. This is not some kind of "scientist re-calculated everything correctly." This is a completely official event with a wide range of participants, held in a state authority (State Duma of the Russian Federation). If something with the original sources were not there, they would have long ago denied everything, but this did not happen.
            Quote: glory1974
            no one has officially denied them.

            The fact of the matter is that they have disproved. In February of this year. At those very hearings.
            Quote: glory1974
            Pseudo-scientific calculations of a million there, two here from the works of the Sokolov-Pershanin-Rezunov can be composed in dozens every day.

            This is an incorrect example for comparison. I wrote about this to you above.
            Quote: glory1974
            The commission considered for several years, several dozen people worked, and one refutes everything.

            Not one person, but one document or package of documents.
            Quote: glory1974
            On what basis?

            Based on documents of the State Planning Commission of the USSR. What is not clear?
        2. Gransasso
          Gransasso 22 October 2017 22: 48 New
          0
          Quote: Johns
          We consider: 205.002.405 - 151.165.200 = 53 837 205 people. According to all the same declassified data, the total population decline of the USSR in 1941-45. amounted to more than 52 million 812 thousand people. The numbers more or less converge.



          Hello. 151 million armies are not included in 1.07.45 million civilians as of 12.

          But these 12 million are “compensated” by the birth rate for these years. In the period from 41 to 45, approximately 17 million child mortality were born over the same period, approximately 5 million.


          So a decrease of approximately 50 million over the years of the war remains
          1. Johns
            Johns 22 October 2017 23: 20 New
            0
            Quote: Gransasso
            as of 1.07.45, 12 million armies are not included.

            Yes, I forgot to take them into account.
            It seems like I had to read about more than 6 million in the army. But this figure is offhand. I won’t give a tooth.
            1. Gransasso
              Gransasso 22 October 2017 23: 47 New
              0
              Quote: Johns
              Yes, I forgot to take them into account.



              The Central Archive of the Ministry of Defense of Russia contains roll-call reports of irreparable losses from military units from the front and military registration and enlistment offices at the place of recruitment of non-returning soldiers.

              They contain the names of specific 19,8 million people. - dead, dead, missing.

              As of July 1, 1945, the official number of the USSR Armed Forces is known (12,8398 million), commissions for injuries to the disabled (3,4651 million), soldiers who returned from captivity (0,9493 million who were not returned to the USSR Armed Forces), specialists transferred to industry (0,09473 million), convicted persons (0,4366 million), undetected deserters from the troops (0,2124 million), as well as defectors from the West (0,25 million).
              Only 18,25 million people.

              If you believe the official number of 34,5 million people who were in the war "under arms", it turns out that 16,25 million people are not registered in living counts for this date.

              Of these, 8,7 million people. - official irretrievable losses of the USSR Armed Forces.

              The difference of 7,55 million people as of July 1, 1945 is absent in the official number of losses of military personnel.
              1. Glory1974
                Glory1974 23 October 2017 20: 19 New
                +1
                The central archive of the Ministry of Defense of Russia is stored roll call reports of irreparable loss from military units from the front and military registration and enlistment offices at the place of conscription of not returning soldiers.

                You're lying! if you saw these reports, you would know that only officers were given by name. Private and sergeants were served in quantity. Therefore, a priori, there cannot and could not be a list of names!
          2. chenia
            chenia 22 October 2017 23: 27 New
            +2
            Quote: Gransasso
            So a decrease of approximately 50 million over the years of the war remains


            In view of natural mortality 14-15 million and unborn (birth rate decline) 9 млн.I agree.

            Total 50-24 = 26 million All right. Sami and answered. Bravo.
            1. Gransasso
              Gransasso 22 October 2017 23: 35 New
              0
              Quote: chenia
              Given the natural mortality rate of 14-15 million and unborn (birth rate decline) 9 million agree




              And where did you get these numbers? ....
              1. chenia
                chenia 22 October 2017 23: 58 New
                +2
                Quote: Gransasso
                And where did you get these numbers? ...


                If you consider that conceived until 22.07.41/6/700. all were born, that is, about 800 million (with a loss of up to a year 3-45 thousand is not the excess, but the natural mortality of infants of that time) and the birth rate fell by half to 16 million (and here I do not agree that the birth rate fell more) then by 17 it will be 24-25 million .. and it should be 9 million, that’s a shortfall of XNUMX million.

                And natural mortality - (I also reduced-3.7 million. There are about 4,2 million). yes for 4 years.
                And then think for yourself.

                And most importantly, if you take your data as true, then the CSB should lie (distort numbers) from 20 years to 90.

                And then in RI with statistics, too, everything is wrong.
                1. Gransasso
                  Gransasso 23 October 2017 00: 42 New
                  0
                  Quote: chenia
                  If you consider that conceived until 22.07.41/6/700. all were born, that is, about 800 million (with a loss of up to a year XNUMX thousand - this is not excessive, but the natural mortality of infants of that time) and a drop in the birth rate




                  You are operating numbers from the ceiling ... have never seen the original certificate from the CSB with data on fertility / mortality for that period .. is it true? ...

                  Fertility was lower in the USSR then ... and infant mortality was higher ...


                  Specifically for 1941 ... 4.4 million newborns ..

                  Child mortality:


                  in just 1 year in 1941, the mortality rate of children under the age of 4 years amounted to 1,44 million. It will not be superfluous to say as a reference that at least 1 million people died under the age of 1941 year in 0,84 ., and under the age of 14 years inclusive - 1,586 million.

                  Pay attention to textual calculations of fertility and natural mortality following copies of relevant documents:
                  1. Gransasso
                    Gransasso 23 October 2017 01: 02 New
                    0
                    The total NATURAL mortality (including child mortality) in the USSR for 1941-2.700.000 people. Here project this data for 4 years .. and count.


                    Over 4 years, the natural mortality rate is 10-11 million.a "shortage of 1.07.45-50 million ...
                    1. chenia
                      chenia 23 October 2017 09: 34 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Gransasso
                      for 1941-2.700.000


                      Second nonsense, where do you get the numbers?
                  2. chenia
                    chenia 23 October 2017 09: 32 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Gransasso
                    Specifically for 1941 ... 4.4 million newborns.


                    Further you can not continue connoisseur.
        3. zoolu350
          zoolu350 23 October 2017 02: 15 New
          0
          Of course they understand. But now the attitude towards you will be not as "the unfortunate Slav brothers captured by Hitler" (in fact, you were then faithful slaves of Hitler), but as the slaves of the owners of the Fed. Therefore, no more "savings" of your cities due to the lives of Soviet people. First, "processing" their SBN, and then stripping. Changing shoes in the air will no longer work.
        4. Alexander Greene
          Alexander Greene 23 October 2017 17: 43 New
          +2
          Quote: Johns
          But it's not that. The fact is that among those who participated in the hearings, there are no objections to the figures given at the hearings.

          Why didn't you mind?
          Firstly, perhaps everyone was dumbfounded by such a blatant lie.
          Secondly, apparently there was not one among the listeners who could or would like to object to the liar.
      2. chenia
        chenia 22 October 2017 22: 42 New
        0
        Quote: Gransasso
        Now do math ... and argue with the archives ...


        This is bullshit. Complete and absolute falsification.

        Then give out declassified how many of us were in 1990 (as I understand it, the census data of 60,70,80, 90 and XNUMX do not correspond to the voiced data) otherwise it does not fit ..
        1. Gransasso
          Gransasso 22 October 2017 22: 54 New
          0
          Quote: chenia
          This is bullshit. Complete and absolute falsification.


          And who, I’m embarrassed to ask, has the archives of the State Planning Commission and the Central Statistical Administration of the USSR been falsified.?



          The CSB provided population data every 1st day of every month of every year ...


          Do you seriously think that in the tightly centralized USSR from January 1, 1940 to January 1, 1950 for 10 years no one kept a record of the population, but played like numbers by eye?
    2. Oilpartizan
      Oilpartizan 22 October 2017 21: 36 New
      0
      In the Gulag, the same population census?
      The deported peoples are also taken into account?
      5 million prisoners in 1941-42, who became in one part "traitors" and completely perished in agony in captivity?
      Their families, multiplied by a minimum of three, officially recognized as ChSVN - who counted them from the links and camps of the NKVD?
      1. chenia
        chenia 22 October 2017 22: 20 New
        +3
        Quote: Oilpartizan
        In the Gulag, the same population census?


        What for? Lists from the boss, updated with each batch or weekly. Here the most accurate data, as in the army.


        Quote: Oilpartizan
        Deported peoples are also considered


        But this is at the end of the war. and also taken into account, almost surname.

        Quote: Oilpartizan
        5 million prisoners in 1941-42, who became in one part "traitors" and completely perished in agony in captivity?


        About a million returned, and 1,5 million unfortunately (at least as a heavi), but fought on the other side.

        Quote: Oilpartizan
        Their families, multiplied by a minimum of three, officially recognized as ChSVN - who counted them from the links and camps of the NKVD?


        Then the prisoners were returned to duty (after verification), but to persecute family members? And besides the top command staff (such information could be obtained), the rest were missing at that time.
  16. Oilpartizan
    Oilpartizan 22 October 2017 21: 30 New
    0
    Read the comments.
    The attempts of some forum "historians" to do what the official authorities in the USSR / Russia did not bother to write a historical work about WW2, where they simply counted their killed soldiers and officers, are simply ridiculous.
    And you can not wait for such a historical work, which was written by ALL countries - participants on opposite sides of the front.
    It will never appear in Russia because documents related to the pre-war cooperation of the USSR and Germany, including the joint division of Europe, will not be declassified.
    Therefore, it does not matter five million more or less calculated losses, if even on their land these unfortunate people still whiten bones along the Meat Forest.
    "The war is not over until the last soldier is buried."
    Here Russia is still fighting.
    1. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene 22 October 2017 23: 38 New
      +4
      quote = Oilpartizan] Therefore, it does not matter five million more or less calculated losses, [/ quote]
      If such a team of "excesses" appeared on the site, then someone needs this. It really does not matter to you: five million there, five here. Worthy students of Solzhenitsyn. Therefore, I trust Krivosheev’s research more.
  17. Servla
    Servla 23 October 2017 01: 22 New
    0
    How many people died ... incomprehensible to the mind - 26 million.
  18. pin_code
    pin_code 23 October 2017 06: 32 New
    +1
    Quote: Johns
    And above all, because of the dubious reliability of the post-war (and pre-war) official Soviet "open" figures.

    It seems that some directly took and laid out not dubious figures. so let's reinforce your true numbers, but if there’s nothing, then goodbye :)
  19. Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene 23 October 2017 22: 34 New
    +4
    About losses in the Second World War

    the USSR
    By the beginning of the war in the army and navy and other departments - 4901,8 thousand people.
    During the war, 29574,9 thousand were called up, mobilized.
    Total: 34476,7 thousand

    Irreversible loss of the USSR Armed Forces
    5226,8 thousand were killed and died of wounds at the stages of evacuation
    Died from wounds in hospitals - 1102,8 thousand.
    Died from diseases, died as a result of accidents, sentenced to death (non-combat losses) - 555,5 thousand
    Missing, captured - 4559,0 thousand.
    Total irretrievable losses - 11444,1 thousand (33,2% of the total number of troops)

    He returned from captivity - 1836 thousand (40% of those captured)
    It was called up on the liberated territory and sent to the troops from among the servicemen who had previously been surrounded or missing - 939,7 thousand.
    Total irretrievable demographic losses - 8668,4 thousand (25,1% of the total number of troops)

    Germany
    In total, during the years of the war, 1 thousand were drawn into the armed forces of Germany, taking into account those who served before March 1939, 21107.

    Irreversible loss of life of the armed forces of Germany and the army of its allies on the Soviet-German front from 22.6.1941 to 9.5.1945 (thousand people)
    Killed, died of wounds and diseases, missing, non-combat losses - 4273,0 thousand
    Captured - 4376,3 thousand
    Total irretrievable losses - 8649,3 thousand.

    (including Germany - 7181,1 (thousand 34,0% of the total number of troops of Germany))
    3572,6 thousand returned from captivity (82% of those captured)
    Total irretrievable demographic losses - 5076,7 thousand.
    (including Germany - 4270,7 thousand (20,2% of the total number of troops))

    As you can see, the irretrievable losses of the troops of Germany and its allies were also huge (8,6 million people), not to mention their complete defeat and surrender. Plus, it is necessary to take into account 1,59 million soldiers and officers of the Wehrmacht, who surrendered after May 9, 1945 only before the Soviet Army.
    The ratio of the irretrievable losses of the troops of the USSR and Germany (with allies)
    Deadweight loss: 1,32: 1
    Permanent demographic loss: 1,71: 1

    The difference can be explained by the fact that fewer prisoners of war returned from 2 from fascist captivity than from ours (40% vs. 82%), which is not surprising, given the goals of the Nazis to enslave and destroy the Russians.

    http://sokol14.livejournal.com/68141.html
    1. Johns
      Johns 23 October 2017 22: 58 New
      0
      Wow. He knows arithmetic. This is a big plus.
      The big minus is that logic is not available to him. And common sense.
      1. Alexander Greene
        Alexander Greene 24 October 2017 01: 22 New
        +3
        Quote: Johns
        Wow. He knows arithmetic. This is a big plus.
        The big minus is that logic is not available to him. And common sense.


        Dear, this is neither logic, nor common sense, and there is nothing to say, one deception. You apparently did not serve in the army and do not imagine a lot of people at least 1000 people, so you are so easily juggled with numbers - 5 million here, 5 million there. At the same time, in the most arrogant way, falsify:

        I quote: “Johns We consider: 205.002.405 - 151.165.200 = 53 837 205 people. According to all the same declassified data, the total population decline of the USSR in 1941-45. amounted to more than 52 million 812 thousand people. The numbers more or less converge. "

        Firstly, you overestimate the population before the war, you say that in the USSR there were 205 thousand people on June 1, 1941 before the war, although all documents and studies cite figures from 191 million to 197 million (together with the Baltic, Western Ukraine and Moldova.

        Secondly, the figure of 151 million 169 thousand is just the size of the civilian population, to which we need to add another 12 million military personnel. Total will be 163 million. 169 thousand. But this figure is also incorrect. To verify this, it is enough to trace the dynamics of population growth after the war.

        There is a number in the public domain that no one has ever denied anywhere:
        as of January 1950, there were 178 million 600 thousand people in the USSR.

        If we count the difference in population from July 1945 to January 1950, we get 178 million 600 thousand - 163 million 169 thousand = 15 million 431 thousand

        At that time, according to ZAKSov, the annual population growth in the USSR was as follows.
        For the six months of 1945 - 900 thousand
        1946 - 2207 thousand
        1947 - 1810 thousand
        1948 - 2272 thousand
        1949 = 3287 thousand

        Total: the population of the USSR from 1945 to January 1950 actually increased 10 million 474 thousand
        This is where another 5 million pop up that you juggle. 15 million 431 thousand - 10 million 474 thousand

        So stop braining the readers of the forum.
  20. Koshnitsa
    Koshnitsa 25 October 2017 12: 35 New
    -1
    Quote: Alexander Green
    Total irretrievable demographic losses - 8668,4 thousand (25,1% of the total number of troops)

    Most of those who went to war with her did not return. Everyone knows that. Otherwise, these figures cannot be called a mockery of the memory of the fallen.
    1. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene 25 October 2017 17: 42 New
      +2
      Quote: Koshnitsa
      Most of those who went to war with her did not return. Everyone knows that. Otherwise, these figures cannot be called a mockery of the memory of the fallen.

      I didn’t understand what numbers you have in mind: those that the author of the article and I brought, or those that the free “masons” dumped on us under the Italian and Czech flags?
  21. victor50
    victor50 27 February 2018 16: 48 New
    0
    I have been interested in this issue for a long time, I read a lot of one and the other side. Not just out of curiosity: I ran into the issue of losses, trying to find information about a missing grandfather. I studied the reports of losses for different periods, already just trying to figure out for myself what links the authors can believe, where the lie is known. The question is not simple. I really wanted to believe in the study of the Krivosheev group about the irretrievable losses of military personnel, but so far a personal study of the issue does not allow this. So far I am inclined to believe that significantly more than 8 million people died in the military. In each region, including, apparently, in the former republics of the USSR, there are Books of Memory where all those called up and not returning from the war are listed by name, apparently these Books are compiled on the basis of courtyard detours conducted in 1946. Reading them is scary! Why can’t you name the total number of people whose information is contained in these books? There will probably be some mistakes caused by various circumstances, the introduction of one person in different Books. But how many mistakes will there be? Thousands? Tens of thousands? But it will not be millions (and even sometimes more than 10 million) of the difference in the number of irretrievable losses of aircraft. I do not understand why this is not done? Maybe someone knows, will explain?