Military Review

"They worshiped the bull!" The most developed Mediterranean civilization of the Bronze Age (part two)

78
Last time, we only slightly came into contact with the ancient Minoan civilization. Today we will look at it in more detail and, of course, we will start with chronology, which was proposed by Arthur Evans at the beginning of the 20th century, and then repeatedly specified. In his opinion, there were early, middle and late Minoan periods (the latter already coincided in time with the Mycenaean civilization on the mainland). Alternative chronology of the Minoan stories It was proposed by the Greek archaeologist N. Plato, who divided the history of the Minoan civilization into ... "palace periods."



The Sun rises over Crete, and we continue our story about his ancient Minoan civilization ...

But then Evron’s chronological bindings were clarified in the direction of their antiquity, which was associated with the discovery of objects of the Minoan culture in dated cultural layers of a number of other civilizations, particularly in Ancient Egypt. So, what is the history of the Minoan civilization (from which, incidentally, came both Greek and Roman civilizations, and all European culture in general!) Today?


Modern map of the island.

Early Minoan period (before the Bronze Age, 3650 — 2160 years. BC. E.)

The ancient people's labor tools found in Crete suggest that more than 130 thousands of years ago, Neanderthals arrived here by sea (on boats or rafts, most likely). Then, in the era of the early Neolithic, people reappear here and they are engaged in carving dwellings in the rocks, which are later used as tombs. Many such rocky caves are still today can be seen near the city of Matala.


The exposition of the Archaeological Museum in Heraklion has a lot of ceramic figurines of “goddesses with raised hands”, similar to those found in the lands of ancient Anatolia. (Heraklion Archaeological Museum, Crete)

But where, then, did the Cretans come from, if people did not live on the island until the Neolithic era? Experts note that the iconic images of the bull and the goddess “Oranta” (female figure with raised arms) were known in the east of Anatolia during the time of the ceramic Neolithic. In the IV th. BC. er cylindrical seals appeared in Arslantep, very similar to those that existed among the Minoans, and in the 3rd millennium BC. er a palace was built in Beyzesultan, the architectural features of which have a certain similarity to the Cretan palaces built later.


Goddess Oranta from the island of Crete. (Heraklion Archaeological Museum, Crete)

There is an opinion that the Minoan culture was created by the descendants of the Khalaf culture, and that in turn continued the traditions of the ancient Neolithic proto-towns of Anatolia, such as Chatal-Huyuk (about which there was a large article here), whose inhabitants, following the onslaught of the ancestors of the Sumerians ), moved to the West, and then completely moved to the island of Crete. From the Khalaf culture, they adopted the iconic labrys and stamps from steatite. True, there is one ambiguity. Khalaf culture had no navigation skills. It was a purely continental culture.


We continue to inspect the Palace of Knossos and - obviously, what a huge structure it was. Today, only a small part of it has been restored, but it also makes a very impressive impression.

The final pre-palace period (early Bronze Age, 2160 — 1900 BC)

Culture is developing rapidly. The most ancient Cretan hieroglyphic "Arkhanesk letter" appears. The tradition of stamping seals on clay arises and is widely spread, and there are no hieroglyphs on many prints. That is, not everyone was literate, but property relations “mine is mine, and yours is yours” have already developed. It is possible that this tradition was originally of Middle Eastern origin, but it could come to Crete from the territory of mainland Greece, where similar seals were already used.


In some rooms the frescoes are preserved, but of course, they are not able to convey the magnificence and the riot of colors that was here once upon a time.

Early Palace Period (1900 — 1700 years BC)

The inhabitants of the island begin to build the first palaces. Moreover, construction is underway in the central and eastern parts of the island, while in the west people still cling to the old traditions. Arkhanesky hieroglyphs (that is, from Arhaness) begin to gradually spread to the southern and eastern regions.


Apparently, the conquerors of the island, the Achaeans, were so suppressed by the grandeur of the Palace of Knossos that they did not destroy it, but simply adapted it to their needs.

Novodvortsovy period (1700 — 1425 years. BC. E.)

In 1700, something is happening in Crete, and the old palaces are destroyed, and new ones are being built in their place. In the southern part of the island (Fest), “Linear A” appears, but it displaces hieroglyphic writing not immediately, but about a century and a half later. With the disappearance of hieroglyphic writing, carved seals, however, do not go out of use, although there are no texts on them. At the same time, their iconography becomes very complex and even fanciful, as if the owners of these seals are trying to praise each other in this way.


Here is one of these frilly seals. (Heraklion Archaeological Museum, Crete)

At the same time, there are also cylindrical seals on Crete, very similar to those used by the people of Mesopotamia.


Assyrian cylindrical seal made of limestone and a plaster cast made from it depicting the worship of the god Shamash. (Louvre)

At the same time, the Minoan civilization is dealt a very strong blow by a monstrous natural cataclysm - an explosion of a volcano (which happened between 1628 and 1500 BC) on Fira Island (today Santorini Island), which resulted in a very strong earthquake, and then the same catastrophic tsunami, not to mention the layer of ash that covered fertile land. It is possible that the death of this island was the basis for the myth of the death of Atlantis.


Another Mesopotamian find on the island of Crete: a plaque with the image of the Sumerian winged deities and armed with the club of Gilgamesh. (Heraklion Archaeological Museum, Crete)

It was previously believed that this eruption led to the total destruction of the Minoan civilization, but archaeological finds in Crete proved that this was not the case, and despite the blow received, the Minoan civilization still survived and existed for at least 100 years. It proves this layer of volcanic ash is already under a number of buildings from this period.

However, this catastrophe led to the decentralization of power in Crete, and each of the Cretan cities turned into an independent political center. It is interesting that when the Egyptian sources of this period speak of "Keftiu" (that is, the Cretans), they do not mention the rulers of this island, although the rulers of other regions are mentioned in them repeatedly.

Final Palace Period (1425 — 1350 years BC)


Labrys is the main religious and state symbol of Minoan culture. (Heraklion Archaeological Museum, Crete)

Around 1450 BC. Many of the island’s palaces died in the flames of the fires. And most of them were not restored, although the palace at Knossos was not damaged. What was the cause of these fires? The invasion of the Achaeans? For example, Homer among the non-indigenous population of the island calls the Pelasgians, but it is unclear how they got to the island: together with the Achaeans or the profits themselves. It is important that the nature of the burials changes, which means that one culture is being assimilated by another and this new culture comes from mainland Greece.


The Minoans were jewelry makers. Here is this suspension, for example - well, isn't it perfection itself? (Heraklion Archaeological Museum, Crete)


Earrings, breast decoration, chased gold foil ... (Heraklion Archaeological Museum, Crete)

At the same time, along with the destruction of the palaces, the “Linear A” also disappears for some reason. And the paradox is that it was the fires that destroyed these palaces that simultaneously burned clay tablets, and thus kept this letter to our time. But then, with the Achaeans, “Linear B” appears, and the government is finally centralized. By the way, the same Minos - whose name this civilization is named - according to Greek mythology was by no means a Minoan, but ... a Greek!


"Earring with birds" was in the past and inlaid with precious stones! (Heraklion Archaeological Museum, Crete)

At the same time, many achievements of the Minoans extend to mainland Greece, that is, we can talk about both conquest and interpenetration of island and mainland cultures.

Post-palace period (1450, in Knossos 1350 — 1190 b. BC. E.)

Most scholars are inclined to believe that Knossos at that time became the political center of the new Achaean federation, but then it moved to Mycenae, and on the island, as well as on the mainland, one common Mycenaean culture was established, which united both Minoan and greek elements.


And this is already the tombstone of the era of classical Greece. Even the inexperienced eye can see style differences, isn't it? (Heraklion Archaeological Museum, Crete)

Postminoysky or subminoysky period (after 1170 BC)

In the XII century BC. er Because of the internal crisis that arose soon after the end of the Trojan War (and this often happened later, even after victorious wars!), the Mycenaean civilization and culture were destroyed during the migration of Dorian tribes from the north. The Cretan writing fell into disuse, and the last autochthonous Minoans themselves took refuge from raids from the sea in villages located high in the mountains, such as, for example, Karfi, so that their language, like the ancient Minoan cults, existed for quite a long time. Thus, the last texts in the Etheo-Cretan language, already written with the help of the Greek alphabet, refer to the 3rd century AD. BC er - that is, after a millennium after the disappearance of the great Minoan civilization.

To be continued ...
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  1. Amurets
    Amurets 24 October 2017 06: 32 New
    +2
    The ancient people's labor tools found in Crete suggest that more than 130 thousands of years ago, Neanderthals arrived here by sea (on boats or rafts, most likely). Then, in the era of the early Neolithic, people reappear here and they are engaged in carving dwellings in the rocks, which are later used as tombs. Many such rocky caves are still today can be seen near the city of Matala.

    Here you can refer to the book by Gene M. Awell and her series of books "Children of the Earth." Still, she knows what she writes.
    "Gathering material for his novels, Gene Auel visits excavations in France, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, Hungary and Germany, takes survival lessons and masters a variety of skills and crafts: how to make stone tools, make snow dwellings, process deer skins and weave grass mats. She consults with anthropologists, archaeologists, historians, ethnographers and specialists in other fields of knowledge in order to describe the world of the late Pleistocene in which her characters live in as much as possible and plausible. " Well, the book of Marie Renault "Theseus," in the chapter of Crete. Yesterday, I already wrote that M. Renault has a special look at this era and the myth of Theseus, and as for Mycenaean civilization, differs from the generally accepted one. It is clear that I am writing here, this is not historical research, but at least it is close to the facts. Thanks for the interesting story.
    1. brn521
      brn521 24 October 2017 12: 55 New
      0
      Quote: Amurets
      takes survival lessons and masters a wide variety of skills and crafts: how to make stone tools, make a home out of snow, process deer skins and weave grass mats.

      Somehow weak. The article describes the characters abruptly:
      Then already in the era of the early Neolithic people reappear here and they are engaged in what they carve in the rocks of the dwelling

      Stone axes and bone picks.
    2. kalibr
      24 October 2017 18: 40 New
      10
      Yes, Gene Auel well done. Her series can be considered an example of a historical novel. Of course, an excess of sex is not good for him, but ... well, "she sees." But with regard to tools, food - everything is very reliable. Even a scene with the penetration of Mog-hooray into the future, where he sees huge birds flying in the sky and running strange animals, does not spoil the picture - this could be. Now, if it was written that he sees the wheels ... then, yes - nonsense.
      1. Amurets
        Amurets 24 October 2017 23: 45 New
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        Yes, Gene Auel well done. Her series can be considered an example of a historical novel.

        Yes. It's hard to argue with you here. But Marie Renault’s novel "Theseus", in its part about the victims of the Minotaur, is viewed from the perspective of "Bull Dances", the painting with which was in one of the premises of the Kiosk Palace. And the story of how Theseus went to Ariadne and what was in the cellars and labyrinth of the Kiosk Palace shows the antiquity of this building and the cataclysms that occurred on the island.
  2. XII Legion
    XII Legion 24 October 2017 06: 37 New
    20
    Interesting and quality article
    Reliance on archaeological sources is always impressive
    The author’s meticulous approach to the topic is visible
    Thank you!
    1. kalibr
      24 October 2017 07: 23 New
      16
      This is my daughter should say thank you. Materials about the Bronze Age here went one after another. And then the public domain photo ended up (public domain) and ... that’s it. Information - no photo. Well, I had to "send" her to Crete, where she not only swam, but also lugged around museums and took pictures of the necessary artifacts and signatures for me. Every day in the evening she sent me a photo by mail, and I indicated what else to remove and in which this museum hall is located. Fortunately, she also has the certificate of an international journalist and all these museum excursions cost her nothing, and it’s not so cheap, especially if you go to Heraklion and to the museum every day. And the Greeks did well. All the texts they have are not only in Greek, but also in English. It is easy to work with such information software. So if I had the salary of an English professor, I would have written much better articles, because I would have removed everything myself, climbed into the storerooms of museums, and asked experts on the spot.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. XII Legion
        XII Legion 24 October 2017 08: 23 New
        21
        Smart Your daughter - the quality of the photo is excellent
        And the author is well done - I processed everything and wrote a good article (series of articles)
        If we had the salaries of English professors - we would not just climb the storerooms, but would fly under the circus dome))
        Thanks again for the series of articles.
        Always interested in the Bronze Age
        hi
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 24 October 2017 09: 02 New
          0
          Quote: XII legion
          If we have the salaries of English professors - we’re not just

          You’ll start to write for the sake of England you look and you will have the salary of English professors laughing
          1. XII Legion
            XII Legion 24 October 2017 09: 11 New
            17
            Boris55
            You’ll start to write for the sake of England you look and you will have the salary of English professors

            Verified by personal experience or wish? lol
            By Lyubas - not at
            1. Boris55
              Boris55 24 October 2017 09: 14 New
              0
              Quote: XII legion
              Verified by personal experience or wish?

              Checked repeatedly on the Echo of Moscow, etc. laughing But they didn’t eat at the right place - then why envy the lackeys of Koshcheev? XII Legion: "... If we had the salaries of English professors - we would not just climb the storerooms, but would fly under the circus dome)) ..."
              1. XII Legion
                XII Legion 24 October 2017 09: 18 New
                19
                Checked repeatedly on Echo of Moscow

                What do you
                And who are the lackeys of Koscheev and who envy whom?
                It’s strange. I was just joking. And you are developing this nonsense.
                Well, there’s no reason to trend off-topic.
                hi wink
                1. Boris55
                  Boris55 24 October 2017 09: 20 New
                  0
                  Quote: XII legion
                  Well, there’s no reason to trend off-topic.

                  This is correct. Going personal is the last thing. hi
          2. kalibr
            24 October 2017 10: 15 New
            14
            You know, no! What does it mean to write for the sake of? They pay everyone the same for reliable information. The story that the Russians lying under the spreading cranberries drink vodka directly from under the samovar no one needs. In 2012, in England, I published the latest material on the Borodino Field 200 years later in the Battleplace magazine. The fee is 80 pounds. Standard for this magazine. And I wrote it on their order. You can’t buy Bentley with this money and you won’t go to England.
            1. Boris55
              Boris55 24 October 2017 10: 40 New
              0
              Quote: kalibr
              ... They pay everyone the same for reliable information. ... And I wrote it on their order ...

              So I'm talking about the one - who pays, he orders the music. All storytellers from the story are on the table of contents. Some of their power, others of our enemies. As I understand it, you are one of the last. laughing
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. Mikado
                Mikado 24 October 2017 12: 51 New
                14
                Boris, read the cycle about the “three-ruler”, as well as material about churches or Russian defensive weapons, about the “Dyrenkov tank”, about the BT-SV “Turtle” and much more. hi There are a lot of articles. I don’t understand why, if an article about a foreign one is necessarily bad. what The ability to choose topics so that they are diverse and “not boring” is a hallmark of creativity.
                1. Boris55
                  Boris55 24 October 2017 13: 27 New
                  0
                  Quote: Mikado
                  I don’t understand why, if an article about a foreign one is necessarily bad.

                  I do not mean it. Let them write good articles for themselves - we will read them, but for ours, why should they be magnified?
                  1. Mikado
                    Mikado 24 October 2017 14: 00 New
                    12
                    I now flipped through the article again. Where is the exaltation? request Ordinary ancient culture, somewhat unique, for its time - a culture highly developed. hi Such articles only broaden their horizons and presentation. yes
                    1. Boris55
                      Boris55 24 October 2017 15: 18 New
                      0
                      Quote: Mikado
                      such articles only broaden their horizons and presentation.

                      And note - they expand this horizons in a positive direction for those there, thereby as if hinting at our inferiority ... yes hi
                      1. Mikado
                        Mikado 24 October 2017 16: 09 New
                        14
                        The Lord is with you! hi There was not even a hint of our inferiority. stop Here already, you know, everyone thinks out for himself. You know, we have different authors on the site. Someone writes about the "great ancient Slavs" and "mourns Alaska", someone just gives good articles. Well, what do we need now to read only one topic? Somehow consciousness will be “blocked”! hi history is interesting in its diversity! request there was different - and with us, and "them", and good and bad - everything was. yes
        2. kalibr
          24 October 2017 10: 16 New
          13
          There will be three more materials ...
      3. Boris55
        Boris55 24 October 2017 09: 00 New
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        So if I had the salary of an English professor, I would have written much better articles,

        Something from Abramovich is not that high-quality, but in general I do not observe any article laughing
        Instead of climbing and glorifying them abroad, it would be necessary to travel around Russia for more, but for this a lot of money is not necessary ...
        1. kalibr
          24 October 2017 10: 19 New
          14
          In this regard, Jacques Yves Cousteau is a model for me ... And he left 200 million to children and lived for his pleasure and benefit to mankind.
          1. Boris55
            Boris55 24 October 2017 10: 48 New
            0
            Quote: kalibr
            And the children 200 million left

            Money is not happiness and not quantity. As shown by 90, today their cart, and tomorrow manure.
            Quote: kalibr
            ... for me, the model is Jacques Yves Cousteau ...

            Jacques Yves Cousteau mainly investigated neutral waters and therefore glorified Italy in his own name. You praise other states that are often hostile to us.
            1. kalibr
              24 October 2017 12: 30 New
              10
              A state with as many nuclear weapons as Russia has cannot have states hostile to it!
            2. Cartalon
              Cartalon 24 October 2017 13: 08 New
              +6
              I wish Cousteau was surprised that Italy was glorified belay
              1. Boris55
                Boris55 24 October 2017 13: 30 New
                0
                Quote: Cartalon
                I wish Cousteau was surprised that Italy was glorified

                Who?
                "... Jacques-Yves Cousteau (fr. Jacques-Yves Cousteau; 11 June 1910, Saint-Andre-de-Kubzak, Bordeaux, France - 25 June 1997, Paris, France) - French explorer of the World Ocean, photographer, director, inventor, author of many books and films, was a member of the French Academy, commander of the Legion of Honor, known as Captain Cousteau (fr. Commandant Cousteau). Together with Emil Gagnan, he developed and tested scuba gear in 1943 in honor of Cousteau's ledge on Pluto. .. "
                1. Cartalon
                  Cartalon 24 October 2017 14: 20 New
                  +8
                  Well, yes indeed, all life has passed for the glory of Italy
                  1. kalibr
                    24 October 2017 18: 31 New
                    11
                    This is called just glitches!
  3. Rotmistr
    Rotmistr 24 October 2017 07: 01 New
    19
    I see close contacts - with Egypt, Mesopotamia, etc.
    It is a pity that such a beautiful civilization has disappeared, for whatever reason.
    Thanks to the author for recalling the origins of European civilization and cultural treasures.
    Clear and interesting hi
  4. Boris55
    Boris55 24 October 2017 08: 06 New
    0
    Quote: V. Shpakovsky
    They worshiped the bull!

    Factology is interesting. But the fact that they worshiped the bull is a junk!
    All people on earth were pagans, and for all of them there was one God. Each tribe had their own patrons of crafts. The farmers had their own, their fishermen, their hunters, and there was no enmity between them because the more the patron of this or that trade allows the tribes to grow bread, get fish, and game, the more products there will be for exchange of goods, the richer all the tribes will live.
    But then the Christians came, abolished the one God, elevated the patrons of the tribes to His rank, thereby divided people by faith and set them against each other ...
  5. Operator
    Operator 24 October 2017 09: 19 New
    +1
    Crete is not a source, but a dead end (sedimentation tank, reserve, grassland swamp) of various European civilizations, each of which was imposed on it by newcomers from outside. The Cretans were never able to create and, accordingly, replicate nothing of their own outside.
    1. Anton Yu
      Anton Yu 24 October 2017 09: 29 New
      +3
      Crete gave the Greeks a letter, what a dead end it is.
      1. Operator
        Operator 24 October 2017 10: 15 New
        +1
        The phonetic letter to all Europeans, including the Cretans (inhabitants of a small island), was given by the Phoenicians (inhabitants of the mainland).

        The language was given to the Cretans by the Arians, the bulls by the Celts, metallurgy by the Caucasians, shipbuilding by the Phoenicians.

        For several thousand years, the Cretans were able to stick only the so-called "labyrinth" - a chaotic pile of rooms, slums, but with columns.
        1. Cartalon
          Cartalon 24 October 2017 13: 06 New
          +5
          Yeah, the language was given and do not care for the brooms that before the Achaean invasion the language was not Indo-European, what the Celts had to do with the Cretan bulls and it was not clear to Crete who were Caucasians in the second millennium BC, and the Phoenicians began expansion at sea after the death of the Minoans, but otherwise you are absolutely right.
          1. kalibr
            24 October 2017 18: 26 New
            11
            I love people with a sense of humor!
          2. Operator
            Operator 24 October 2017 20: 11 New
            0
            Quote: Cartalon
            what does the Celts have to do with Cretan bulls and it was not clear to Crete who was Caucasians in the second millennium BC

            The bulls and cows were domesticated by carriers of the Celtic haplogroup R1b 8000 ago in the territory of the Eurasian Steppe Belt. Bulls and cows were introduced to Crete after the Celts invaded Europe in the 3rd millennium BC.

            Caucasians are carriers of the Caucasian haplogroup G, the aborigines of the Caucasus, the discoverers of metallurgy, who settled in the Caucasus-Balkans-Alps-Pyrenees-British Isles before the Celts invaded Europe.
            1. Cartalon
              Cartalon 24 October 2017 20: 22 New
              +1
              were the Egyptian or Sumerian bulls and cows completely wild? you are sure that no one except the Caucasians himself thought of melting metals, and the gallogroups are generally a dubious thing, everyone is so confident about them, putting forward directly opposed theses, such as the unfortunate Rurik who is reliably Scandinavian in some and Slavic in others, and on the basis of one and the same study.
              1. Operator
                Operator 24 October 2017 23: 39 New
                0
                The Celts migrated to Europe through the Caucasus, Sumer, Egypt and Gibraltar.

                The Celts, breaking away from the bulk of the migrants, became the ancestors of the Ugrians, Turkmens, Oguzes, Bashkirs, Bulgar, Armenians and Georgians (the last two peoples are mestizos). These peoples also got the cattle of the Celts.

                Arias came into contact with the Celts in the 4th millennium BC. on the Don and cattle breeding was adopted from them on the way to India and Iran.
            2. Weyland
              Weyland 24 October 2017 21: 03 New
              0
              Quote: Operator
              Caucasians - carriers of the Caucasian haplogroup G, aborigines of the Caucasus, pioneers of metallurgy

              And why are they the discoverers of metallurgy? The first metal smelted from the ore is Chatal-Hyuk, and most likely it was inhabited by carriers of the haplogroup J2. Although, according to Klesov, this could be the 1st wave of Aryans - then they migrated to the Balkans (Vinca culture) and were later driven out into the Great Steppe by erbene cannibals (which through North Africa and Gibraltar invaded Europe and on the way they genocide carriers of haplogroup I2 so successful that only a few hundred people survived)
              1. Operator
                Operator 24 October 2017 22: 09 New
                0
                The trick is that during the emergence of metallurgy in Chatal-Küyük, it was inhabited by carriers of the Caucasian haplogroup G.

                Aryans (not Aryans) came to Europe through Anatolia in the 10th millennium BC. in the midst of the Neolithic, when no one had ever practiced metallurgy. No traces of their westward migration in the form of settled Aryans were found.

                The Arians settled first in the Balkans (the ice age in central and eastern Europe had not yet ended), and then began to settle west and north (as the glacier retreated).
                In the 7th millennium BC the arias reached the Karelian Isthmus (becoming the first inhabitants of the Carpathians, the Baltic states, future Poland, Belarus and Ukraine) and the Rhine (becoming the second inhabitants of central Europe after the Illyrians).
                In the 6th millennium BC Arias reached the Urals and the White Sea through the forest zone, and the Don along the steppe zone, where they met with the Celts, the remnants of the migration of their main part to the south.
                1. Cartalon
                  Cartalon 24 October 2017 22: 23 New
                  0
                  How can one make such baseline statements about the events of 12 millennia ago, they found such an ax, and after thousands of kilometers and dating after +/- 500 years it’s similar, it means the culture of these same axes has moved, after 50 years they will find the remains of a pot that doesn’t look like and the whole theory will have to be redone, and according to genetics it’s impossible to judge who moved to where, it seems that in ancient times people traveled hundreds of kilometers throughout their lives.
                  1. Operator
                    Operator 24 October 2017 23: 11 New
                    0
                    Chromosomes change over time (mutate), so you can always distinguish ancestors from descendants.

                    If the bone remains of the ancestors are found in point A, and the remains of descendants are found in point B, then the hedgehog is clear in which direction the migration was going.
                    1. Cartalon
                      Cartalon 25 October 2017 06: 18 New
                      0
                      And where is the certainty that migration, and not just some kind of hassle, is often found in one burial place to have completely unrelated remains
                      1. Operator
                        Operator 25 October 2017 08: 54 New
                        0
                        In antiquity, they moved not one by one, but by clans and tribes. In addition, at the moment, tens and hundreds of burials have been found on migration routes.
          3. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 24 October 2017 22: 17 New
            +2
            Wait-stand, here for as vkazkaztsev-do not! Who, if not the ancient Armenians, poured Mount Ararat, about which he decoupled his scum Noah?!?!?
  6. kalibr
    24 October 2017 10: 09 New
    13
    Quote: Boris55
    but for this a lot of money is not needed.

    Just for Russia, money is needed even more. No one will let you into the museum at all for free, and to make high-quality photography is generally from the realm of fantasy.
    1. Mikado
      Mikado 24 October 2017 10: 31 New
      10
      Just for Russia, money is needed even more. No one will let you into the museum at all for free, and to make high-quality photography is generally from the realm of fantasy.

      perhaps I agree. Especially about photography. Lighting is often unsuccessful for photographing, some exhibits are located so that you can’t "crawl" to them - on their own. To order professional shooting costs money and time - we still have the bureaucracy, but nothing is done without a team.
      Thank you with Svetlana for your work! hi colorfully, visually - pleased!
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 24 October 2017 22: 23 New
        +1
        Yeah, and in the Russian Museum you can’t breathe loudly, without rolling the local gaddy’s grandmother, I breathed on the "imperishable" here.
        1. kalibr
          25 October 2017 07: 53 New
          11
          Here! And I shot in the Dresden Gallery freely, only without a flash. And nobody rolled up. And in the Armory opposite, they also helped when they found out why I had a photo.
    2. Boris55
      Boris55 24 October 2017 10: 56 New
      0
      Quote: kalibr
      Just for Russia, money is needed even more.

      I'm not talking about museums. I'm talking about the fact that our history, archeology is neither who nor what nor spirit. There is a birch-bark gramato, there are Kostyonki, there is Arkaim, there is the Kola Peninsula, there is a lot of things - but not gu-gu about them, but in Crete it is yeah ... All our science is aimed at banning archeology in Russia, not God forbid the Russians recognize something like this from their ancestors ... But in general, then the museums are there too ...
      1. kalibr
        24 October 2017 12: 45 New
        14
        Travel to Arkaim and make us happy with the study of how the superethnos of the Hyperborean Rus lived there. Is anyone bothering you? Nobody will be. Please take it and go! At least here on VO everything that you write will publish. And our museums are simply poor. And poor people can only earn money poorly, alas.
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Boris55
          Boris55 24 October 2017 13: 37 New
          0
          Quote: kalibr
          Travel to Arkaim and make us happy with exploration

          I am not an archaeologist, I am a military man and retired in the last century. There wouldn’t be an Internet - I wouldn’t know anything about Arkaim either, and much more about that. Someone is blocking this info ...
          Quote: kalibr
          And our museums are simply poor.

          Money has long been transformed from a means of developing civilizations into a means of control. If our archaeologists and museums are not paid extra - then this is beneficial to someone.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. kalibr
            24 October 2017 18: 19 New
            11
            And why should the military be aware of Arkaim at the level of an archaeologist. That would be more than strange. In my opinion, there is even too much information about him, and not from archaeologists, but from "bakers". In addition, I am sure that your military pension is more than mine + assistant professor’s salary. So it’s not too late to start studying Arkaim, so to speak on the spot!
          3. kalibr
            24 October 2017 18: 44 New
            11
            And we all are underpaid. Not yet learned to have an effective economy with high wages.
          4. Operator
            Operator 24 October 2017 20: 35 New
            0
            Quote: Boris55
            Someone blocks this info

            Firstly, Russophobes from among professional historians - they were divorced during the Soviet Union as unreared dogs, mainly from Jews, still block the Old under the slogan of the struggle against Russian nationalism.

            Secondly, communist functionaries such as the teacher of history of the CPSU Viktor Shpakovsky (kalibr'a), for whom the history of our country began on November 7, 1917, at least in part of the Great Russians. The exception is the history of ugrofinns and Turks, supposedly indigenous peoples of Eastern Europe and supposedly affected by the alien Great Russians.

            Only now we are starting to crawl out (and even with difficulty) from a situation where the existence of the titular people of our country by local Russophobes was counted only from the XNUMXth century AD - supposedly only then the Slavs began to populate the Central Russian Plain, and before that they were sitting head over heels Polish swamps.
            1. Mikado
              Mikado 24 October 2017 21: 10 New
              +1
              Victor Shpakovsky (kalibr'a)

              Andrey, with all due respect - Vyacheslav laughing Vyacheslav Olegovich is possible - not a boy, tea. wink Not if you are over sixty - you can also "Vyacheslav" yes
              It was conducted only from the XNUMXth century AD - supposedly only then the Slavs began to populate the Central Russian Plain, and before that, from the beginning of time they were sitting head over heels in Polish swamps

              I don’t know where the Slavs sat before (I confess, I don’t know! I suspect that they didn’t even “sit” but existed quite freely, and were not “amazed at the rights and movement” - this is a pun laughing ), but this should be confirmed by: a) archeology; b) written sources. We don’t take Veles’s book into account - this is just the Russophile ravings of figlars from emigration. hi
              1. Operator
                Operator 24 October 2017 22: 25 New
                +1
                I apologize - of course, Vyacheslav.

                Do not go too far - article authors are traditionally called by their first and last names.

                Damn, what are these written sources in the days before writing? In such cases, the main method for attributing artifacts is radiocarbon analysis of material objects and DNA analysis of the Y chromosome of human bones.
            2. kalibr
              24 October 2017 21: 30 New
              11
              If you read IN, then blocking something is not visible from the word at all. However, as well as links to archaeological evidence that the Slavs built the pyramids in Egypt, discovered America, and in general were a people of nations. By the way, the Poles have a haplogroup of Slavs at the level of 50% of the actual Russians. Only with them and with us, the Germans have less. So who exactly was sitting in what swamps we do not know for sure. And that you wrote "we." What do you have to do with history? The same lover as the others. We have already talked about this. Well, love your health, but without deep generalizations and stupid accusations. And then this can be misinterpreted. There is a fable even on this score. Russian ... titular nation ...
        3. Des10
          Des10 24 October 2017 13: 40 New
          +1
          Quote: kalibr
          And poor people can only earn money poorly, alas.

          here yes, really.
          But there is some kind of wormhole.
        4. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 24 October 2017 22: 39 New
          +1
          It’s not true, many of our museums employ people who are burning professions. I met such people in Izborsk, Priyutino, Shlisselburg ... And the Greeks, with all the income from tourism and the money dumped by UNESCO, do not want to remove construction waste from the walls.
          1. kalibr
            25 October 2017 07: 50 New
            11
            Yes, burning ... knowing, but ... developed one-sidedly. I come to one museum. There is a bronze dagger. I tell them: let me take off the form, make a copy, it will lie next to it - "you can buy." You for this with the dagger 1000 p. (50 entry ticket, 100 photography). They: "How old are you?" I said ... In response extended faces and the answer - "Well, no!" Like in the parable of two brothers: O Almighty, take one eye out of me! And the salary of 7 thousand. So burn them a profession!
      2. kalibr
        24 October 2017 18: 24 New
        11
        There is a magazine ARCHEOLOGY of the Russian Federation, there is a 20-volume ARCHEOLOGY of RUSSIA. Read ... what prohibitions, what "conspiracy of archaeologists." Excavation grants are provided every year - look at the websites of the Russian State Humanitarian Fund and the Russian Federal Property Fund. Nobody interferes with anything ... It's just not your business and you are not aware of it. But these are your problems, and not the problems of Russian science at all.
      3. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 24 October 2017 22: 26 New
        +2
        Here it is not necessary about the Kola Peninsula! I was born and raised there. No fig there is no Russoproterozoic !!!
  7. The comment was deleted.
  8. Anton Yu
    Anton Yu 24 October 2017 18: 31 New
    +2
    Sense to write about Arkaim? Nobody knows who lived there and probably never will.
    1. Weyland
      Weyland 24 October 2017 21: 10 New
      +1
      Quote: Anton Yu
      Nobody knows who lived there and probably never will.

      According to the research of Klesov (according to the haplotype), Indo-Aryans (in the sense that the Arians came to India from Arkaim, and, for example, the more western group of Aryans came to Iran)
      1. kalibr
        24 October 2017 21: 41 New
        11
        This is not about that. And about the area. They are not comparable! Up to 100000 people could live in Knossos, and what is Arkaim - so ... a tiny village. 800-900 people. This is excavation data. Compare 800-900, even a thousand and 100.000 thousand! On the Internet, by the way, everything is there. Plans, and schemes, and photos from the air and reconstruction of buildings. It is easy to calculate that the entire Arkaim is smaller than the bathrooms in Knossos. Is its discovery valuable? Of course, valuable. A lot of interesting things are connected with the area where it is located. But in my opinion Knossos and the other palaces of Crete are simply more interesting. There is nothing to be particularly excited about in Arkaim. That's all.
        1. Operator
          Operator 24 October 2017 22: 38 New
          0
          Quote: kalibr
          Up to 100000 people could live in Knossos

          Yes, yes, yes, 100, no less laughing


          Here in hell to write articles without knowing basic things about the described object?
          1. Operator
            Operator 24 October 2017 23: 16 New
            0
            The size of Knossos is 130x180 meters, while the "palace" complex is as palace as a food warehouse (greetings from Arkaim)

            http://www.tocrete.com/heraklion/sights/605
            1. kalibr
              25 October 2017 07: 41 New
              12
              Yes, I know how big it is. But this is only the palace itself. I never wrote that 100000 lived in the palace. It was a city. And it’s very big. And I know what area was uncovered in Arkaim and examined by archaeologists. The beautiful murals in the food warehouse are a clear degradation, of course. It’s a pity, they just do not exist at all in Arkaim.
              But this is a reconstruction of Arkaim itself (without surrounding settlements). You have already given the plan of the Knossos palace. Compare in scale ...
              1. Operator
                Operator 25 October 2017 09: 06 New
                0
                Do you understand the term "architectural-planning solution" (which is present among the Aryans and absent among the Cretans)?
                If during the excavation of Arkaim no wall paintings on plaster were found, this first of all means that in our latitudes (unlike the Mediterranean) there is a transition of air temperature through zero, after which the plaster crumbles into dust in unheated rooms.

                "Neighboring settlements" is a Country of cities (dozens of only found hillforts), the whole Chelyabinsk region with a hook.

                It should be borne in mind that the Chelyabinsk arias were nomadic people and the settlements were centers of tribal nobility, the main part of the tribes lived in vezhas (linen tents) and grazed horses, cows, sheep and goats year-round.

                The total number of Chelyabinsk Aryans was sufficient to conquer the territories of future Kazakhstan, Central Asia, Iran and India, while the current number of descendants of Aryans in the same India is estimated at 15 percent.

                Compared to the Country of Cities, the whole of Crete at the same time is just a pot-bellied little thing.
                1. kalibr
                  25 October 2017 13: 06 New
                  +8
                  It is clear that the natural-geographical factor in the early stages of development is dominant. In some ways your nomads were higher, in some ways settled Cretans.
                  Something only I did not understand. There was a crossing through 0, but cattle grazed year-round. Is it in Siberia all year round?
                  1. Operator
                    Operator 25 October 2017 14: 27 New
                    0
                    Arias could well paint the walls of their buildings in Arkaim. They remained until the buildings were heated.

                    After the departure of the Aryans from Arkaim and the transition of air temperature through zero, the plaster, along with wall paintings, fell off the walls and was defragmented to a state of dust.

                    Over 4 thousand years, the temperature has passed through zero in the South Urals region at least 8 thousand times, in the Crete region - not once.

                    But the artwork made of bronze and ceramics in Arkaim preserved

                    1. Operator
                      Operator 25 October 2017 14: 43 New
                      0
                      Bronze weapons from Arkaim

                      1. kalibr
                        25 October 2017 19: 15 New
                        +1
                        Where is the gold? The degree of development of technology of the Bronze Age does not show weapons, but jewelry.
                    2. kalibr
                      25 October 2017 19: 30 New
                      +2
                      About 0, I already understood. It remains to understand how they grazed cattle at these latitudes all year round?
  9. ICT
    ICT 24 October 2017 21: 32 New
    0
    To be continued ...


    photo of the c-300 complex, can I ask?
  10. kalibr
    24 October 2017 22: 25 New
    +8
    Quote: TIT
    photo of the c-300 complex, can I ask?

    And what is the connection of Crete with the S-300, you can ask?
    1. Cartalon
      Cartalon 25 October 2017 06: 24 New
      +1
      He stands there like Cyprus from Crete guards the Turks