Military Review

“Why are we destroying the Russian land?”

116
920 years ago, 19 in October 1097, on the advice of the princes in Lyubech, the division of Russia into specific principalities was legalized. This council was preceded by a difficult epoch of Izyaslav, full of strife, trouble and blood, the internecine war of 1094-1097. and the war with the Polovtsy.


At the congress in Lyubech, heartfelt speeches were made about the structure of the world and about “almost destroying the Russian land”, and the Polovtsy “our land should be distributed”. However, despite the peace agreements reached, in the same year 1097 a new war broke out for destinies, this time in the west of Russia. The collapse of Russia was continued. The elite ambitions of the princes and the boyars eventually destroyed the empire of Rurikovich, and quite soon in historical terms it would become a relatively easy prey for the Western powers, directed by Rome, and so on. "Mongol-Tatars" (the same heirs of the continental Scythian state, like the Rus of Kiev and Vladimir).

Decomposition of the Russian state

After the death of Svyatoslav the Great (964-972), the period of decomposition of the Russian state begins. The elite ambitions of the princes, the narrow corporate interests of the boyars and merchants and the conceptual and ideological sabotage of the Byzantine version of Christianity against the background of the decline of the ancient pagan (Vedic) faith led to degradation and eventually to the disintegration and death of the Russian empire created by the works of the first Rurikovichs.

At first, Russia was stunned by the struggle of Svyatoslavich. The victory was won by Vladimir, who, in order to strengthen the princely power, first created the pantheon of gods, and then adopted the Byzantine version of Christianity. For this service, the fratricide and voluptuous owner of the harem with hundreds of concubines (where the wife of the murdered brother got into) was later called the church "holy." From this moment began a long period of the merger of Christianity and Russian paganism, which after a few centuries ended the creation of fiery Russian Orthodoxy (glory of right). But before that, the Greek missionaries, with the support of the princes and the boyars, tried to "civilize" the Rus. True, the overwhelming majority of the population adhered to paganism for several centuries, only externally accepting baptism. According to some researchers, another bloody civil war also took place in the years of Vladimir's rule in Russia - the struggle against the pagan "party". Christianity was accepted not so beautifully and voluntarily, as they later began to show, but through much blood. In addition, Vladimir to death has quarreled with the steppe (Pechenegs), with whom his father Svyatoslav had an alliance, and was forced to build a defense system on the southern approaches to Kiev.

His sons staged a new internecine war. According to the official version, it was started by Svyatopolk Okayanny (1015-1016), who killed his brothers Boris and Gleb. According to another version, the rebellion during the life of Vladimir was raised by the Prince of Novgorod Yaroslav, refusing to submit to Kiev. And Svyatopolk was the co-regent of the sick father and was preparing, along with his brothers, to crush rebellious Novgorod. After the death of Vladimir, Yaroslav and Mstislav refused to recognize Svyatopolk as a legitimate prince in Kiev. Only two brothers — Boris and Gleb — declared their loyalty to the new prince of Kiev and pledged to “honor him as their father,” and it would have been very strange for Svyatopolk to kill their allies. Jaroslav hired the Vikings to fight with the brothers and killed. The defeated Svyatopolk fled to Poland, to the father-in-law of Boleslav the Brave. In 1018, with the support of the Polish and Pecheneg troops, Svyatopolk and Boleslav marched on Kiev (How the Poles of Boleslav the Brave took Russian Kiev for the first time). The squads met on the Bug, where the Polish army, under the command of Boleslav, defeated the Novgorodians, and Yaroslav fled again to Novgorod. There he assembled a new army. Svyatopolk, quarreling with the Poles, was forced to flee again from Kiev from Yaroslav who had returned with the Vikings. He gathered an army. In the decisive battle on the Alta River, Svyatopolk suffered a decisive defeat and soon died. And the winner and his heirs - Yaroslav "the Wise" and Yaroslavichi - rewrote history in their favor, blaming all the blame for the civil war on Svyatopolk.

At the same time, Yaroslav was not the sovereign ruler of Russia for a long time. In 1023, another brother of Yaroslav, the militant Tmutarakan prince Mstislav, conquered Chernigov and the entire left bank of the Dnieper. In 1024, Mstislav defeated the troops of Yaroslav under the leadership of the Varyag Yakun under Leaves (near Chernigov). Mstislav transferred his capital to Chernigov and, sending ambassadors to Yaroslav, who fled to Novgorod, offered to divide the land along the Dnieper and stop the war: “Sit down in your Kiev, you are the elder brother, and I will have this side.” In 1026, Yaroslav, having assembled a large army, returned to Kiev, and made peace with Gorodets with his brother Mstislav, agreeing with his peaceful proposals. The brothers divided the land on the Dnieper. The left bank was reserved for Mstislav, and the right bank for Yaroslav. Yaroslav, being the Grand Duke, preferred to sit on the Novgorod table until 1036 year (the time of Mstislav's death).

Yaroslav asked the brothers to observe the "series", the order of inheritance. The elder, Grand Duke of Kiev, all were obliged to read and obey, like a father. But he also had to take care of the younger ones, to protect them. Yaroslav established a hierarchy of Russian cities and princely thrones. The first in rank is Kiev, the second is Chernigov, the third is Pereyaslavl, the fourth is Smolensk, the fifth is Vladimir-Volynsky. None of the sons remained without inheritance, each received possession according to seniority. But Russia was not divided. The younger princes submitted to the eldest, Kiev, important issues were solved together. Commons were not given to perpetual use. The Grand Duke will die, Chernigov will replace him, and the other princes will move along a kind of “ladder” (ladder) to higher “steps”. Other cities and lands were not allocated personally, but were attached to the main lands. The right bank of the Dnieper and Turovo-Pinskaya land departed to Kiev. Novgorod directly submitted to the Grand Duke. The two most important centers of Russia, Kiev and Novgorod, which determined the development of the Russian land, should have been in the same hands. Tmutarakan, other advanced outposts of Russia, lands on the Desna and Oka as far as Murom, etc., belonged to the Chernihiv table. But this order was quickly violated.

Heavy legacy Izyaslav

The Kiev table, after the death of Yaroslav, was inherited not by the strongest and most sensible of his son, like the warrior Svyatoslav or the bookshop Vsevolod. And Izyaslav - it was a weak ruler, who easily turned his wife and close. At this time, the trade-boyar, usurious (including foreigners - Khazar Jews, Greeks) top of Kiev, which enslaved the common people, sharply increased. To meet the ever-growing needs of the rich and powerful, taxes were increased, new taxes were introduced. In Kiev, predation flourished, embezzlement. The rich were nobles, boyars, merchants, Greeks, Jews, usurers, tiuny, collecting taxes. Nobles and boyars cleaned up the hands of the land and the village. The peasants, who yesterday were free community members, became dependent. The advisers suggested that the Russian Truth be edited - the laws of Russia. Laws came from ancient times, when there was no slavery and the vast majority of people were free community members. According to the Russian Truth, death was avenged by death. Now they made amendments - the blood feud and the death penalty were abolished, replaced with a money vira (fine). And if the offender can not pay, it can be sold to the same merchants, usurers. It is clear that the rich strata of the population could buy off a crime.

In the meantime, the situation on the steppe borders of Russia has dramatically worsened. In the steppe was a massacre. Polovtsi broke the Torks and Pechenegs. Those fled, some asked for Rus, becoming the "border guard". The time of the Polovtsian raids began. And Yaroslavich inside Russia themselves violated the order of the ladder. The great Prince of Kiev, Izyaslav, with his mercenary environment, removed Rostislav’s nephew (son of Vladimir Yaroslavich) from rich Novgorod. Soon Vyacheslav Yaroslavich Smolensky died. The transition began on the ladder. Igor was transferred from Vladimir-Volynsky, the fifth in rank of the city, to Smolensk. But he did not reign too long, fell ill and died. Rights to Smolensk received Rostislav. In full accordance with the ladder: when the brothers die, their sons begin to move up the stairs. At first he was the eldest, then the second-oldest, and so on. But Rostislav’s father, Vladimir, was older than Izyaslav. In this scenario, Rostislav was the fourth in line at the Kiev table! This did not suit the Grand Duke, his entourage, and Svyatoslav with Vsevolod. Rostislav walked ahead of the sons of the three main rulers of Russia. As a result, the law "edited." Like, when there was a distribution of inheritances, Vladimir was no longer alive. Therefore, Rostislav falls out of the system of a ladder. The children of the deceased brothers, Vyacheslav and Igor, were thrown out of the stairs. They became rogue princes. Smolensk and Vladimir-Volyn became the fiefdoms under the direct control of the Grand Duke and his people.

Rostislav was given Vladimir-Volynsky in feeding, but not according to the system of ladder, but from the Grand Duke's “bounty”. It is clear that Rostislav was offended. His father was the heir of Yaroslav the Wise, a favorite of Novgorod. And now his son is just a vassal of the Grand Duke, Izyaslav wanted - he gave Volyn, he wants - he will take it away, as Novgorod had previously taken away. And the descendants of Rostislav will not be able to climb the stairs, they will not be able to get Pereyaslavl, Chernigov and Kiev. Then Rostislav made an alliance with Hungary, married the daughter of the Hungarian ruler Bela. With such a father-in-law, the Volyn prince became independent from Kiev. However, in 1063, his patron Bela died. Alone Volyn was not to hold. The decisive and enterprising prince came up with one more move - he suddenly occupied Tmutarakan, which belonged to the Chernigov prince. Here he began to plan a trip to Chersonese or other Byzantine possessions. With such an inheritance, he became one of the most powerful princes of Russia and could claim the inheritance of his father. But the Greeks preventively poisoned the Russian prince.

Immediately began a new distemper. She began the independent prince of Polotsk Vseslav of Polotsk (Vseslav the Prophet), who was considered a sorcerer. Polotsk has long concealed a grudge against Kiev, even from the time when Vladimir I organized the pogrom of the Polotsk principality, killed the local prince Rogvolod, his sons, and forcibly took over his daughter Rogneda. When Rostislav brewed porridge in the south, the Polotsk prince decided that a big war would begin, the Yaroslavich brothers would be busy and would not be able to stop him. He plundered Novgorod. The brothers Yaroslavichi - Izyaslav, Svyatoslav and Vsevolod, in 1067, responded with a trip to Minsk. The city was taken by storm, the defenders killed. The townspeople were sold into slavery, Minsk burned. While Minsk was still holding, Vseslav gathered an army. In March 1067, the two armies converged on the Nemige River. The troops of the 7 days stood against each other in deep snow. Finally, Vseslav of Polotsk began a full-moon attack, and many warriors fell on both sides. The battle is described in the Word about the regiment of Igor: "... on Nemiga, sheaves are spread from the heads, beat with damasks, they put life on the current, blow the soul out of the body ...". The battle has become one of the largest and bitter internecine battles in Russia. Vseslav's troops were defeated. The prince himself was able to escape. Polotsk land was subjected to ruin. After 4 a month after the battle, Yaroslavlichi called Vseslav to negotiations, kissed the cross and promised safety, but they broke their promise - they grabbed together with two sons, took them to Kiev and imprisoned them.

“Why are we destroying the Russian land?”

Battle on Nemiga. Miniature from the Radziwill Chronicles

In the meantime, discontent with the princely government and the boyars continued to grow in Kiev. The cup of people's patience was overwhelmed by defeat from the Polovtsy. At the end of the summer of 1068, the heroic outposts reported that an enemy army was coming from the steppe. Princes Izyaslav, Svyatoslav and Vsevolod raised squads, but did not begin to gather infantry rati, so as not to waste time. They decided to meet the enemy on the far approaches, drove to the Alta River. Here, the prince's squads suffered a heavy defeat from the Polovtsy. Izyaslav and Vsevolod fled to Kiev, shut up. An avalanche of Polovtsians followed. The Russian land was not ready for the invasion, the villages were burning, the masses of people were full. Then the people of Kiev gathered the assembly and sent a message to the prince: “Here are the Polovtsi scattered throughout the land, give, prince, weapons and horses, and we will still fight them. ” However, the prince's entourage was afraid to arm the people. To know she was afraid of a popular uprising. Armed people refused. The crowd is seething. Enraged people defeated tysyatskogo court. After tysyatskogo remembered the Grand Duke. Like, why do we need such a weak and cowardly prince? They remembered that another prince, Vseslav Bryachislavich, was languishing in the dungeon and said: “Let's go, we will free our squads from the cellar”. Unfairly offended, the innocently injured Vseslav seemed a good candidate for the position of prince.

Izyaslav fled from Kiev to Poland and offered the Poles for help Cherven cities. In 1069, Boleslav marched with the army to Kiev. Kievans were ready to fight, said nothing and came to Belgorod. However, Prince Vseslav, feeling the instability of his position, left the army at Belgorod and fled to his native Polotsk. In the morning the army found out what was left without the leader and retreated to Kiev. Kievans called as peacekeepers Vsevolod and Svyatoslav. Kiev promised to surrender to the prince if he forgives the citizens and will not allow the Poles to ruin the city. The Grand Duke promised mercy, but he deceived the townspeople. He released only part of the Polish army, Boleslav remained with the other part of the army. In Kiev, the first to enter the son of the Grand Duke Mstislav, who did not give any vows. On the heads of the townspeople fell repression. And the Polish troops stationed in Kiev and the surrounding area. This caused discontent of the Russians, the Poles behaved as conquerors, did not stand on ceremony with the locals, took everything they wanted. As a result, the same story repeated as half a century ago — the Poles began to be beaten and kicked out.

The war continued with Vseslav of Polotsk. The brothers Izyaslav, seeing his "incompetence", soon came out against him themselves, when Izyaslav behind their backs began to negotiate with Vseslav. The brothers Yaroslavichi immediately went to Kiev and demanded that he leave the Kiev table. Izyaslav again fled to the West. The throne took Svyatoslav (1073-1076). Izyaslav also began to ask for help from Boleslav, then from the German Emperor Henry IV. The prince promised to recognize himself as a vassal of the Second Reich, to pay tribute if the emperor helps to occupy the Kiev table again. It got to the point that Izyaslav sent his son Yaropolk Izyaslavich to his father's father. On behalf of his father, he kissed the papal shoe, gave Russia under the authority of the "king of kings" Gregory VII, and even expressed his readiness to accept the Catholic faith. Pope in 1075, he crowned the royal crown of Yaropolk in Rome and granted him the linen of the holy throne to the Russian kingdom, the power in Kiev was to belong to Izyaslav and his son Yaropolk (For more details, see: Boleslav II the Bold and Izyaslav Yaroslavich against Kiev; How Russia planned to make "Lena of St.. Petra).

The position of Grand Duke Svyatoslav in Kiev was strong. Poland, at the direction of the papal throne, could not immediately support Izyaslav, since it was connected with the war with the Holy Roman Empire, and Russia was its ally. However, here Izyaslav lucky. In December 1076, Prince Svyatoslav Yaroslavich died suddenly. Vsevolod Yaroslavich, who occupied the Kiev table, found himself in a difficult situation. The Polovtsians again moved in the steppe. The next stage of the struggle between the Polotsk prince Vseslav Brachislavich and Yaroslavichi began. And the Polish king Boleslav immediately forgot about the alliance with Russia and how Svyatoslav helped him against the empire. He gave Izyaslav army, helped recruit mercenaries. In 1077, Izyaslav went to Kiev. Vsevolod chose to negotiate, rather than fight. Izyaslav took the Kiev table for the third time.

The third reign of Izyaslav was short-lived. The Grand Duke wisely forgot about his promise to go to Catholicism and subordinate Russia to the Roman throne. The struggle with Vseslav continued. Yaroslavichi organized two trips to Polotsk, inviting Polovtsy to help. In 1078, a new internecine war began. Their nephews, Oleg Svyatoslavich and Boris Vyacheslavich, were dissatisfied with their position against their uncles, Izyaslav and Vsevolod. Their base was the distant Tmutarakan. Connecting with Polovtsy, they broke Vsevolod on the river. Sozhitse. Vsevolod ran for help to Kiev. Izyaslav supported his brother: “If we have a part in the Russian land, then both of us. If we are deprived of her then both. I will lay down my head for you ”(and that’s what happened). Soon, the combined troops of the princes Izyaslav, his son Yaropolk, Vsevolod and his son Vladimir Monomakh spoke out against the offenders. The decisive battle on Nezhatinoy Niva happened 3 October 1078 year. Sich was angry. The rogue princes were defeated. Prince Boris died. The Grand Duke was mortally wounded in this battle.

Board of Vsevolod (1078-1093)

Great reign adopted Vsevolod. Reasonable prince tried to extinguish civil strife. He offered peace to Svyatoslavich. He was left to Tmutarakan, Oleg was offered the Murom-Ryazan principality. However, the princes refused to put up. In 1079, Oleg and his brother Roman gathered an army of representatives of the Caucasian tribes and Polovtsy, and again moved from Tmutarakan to Kiev. Vsevolod met them at Pereyaslavl. He was able to negotiate with the Polovtsian princes, who preferred to fight gold, took a ransom and turned it back. Vsevolod bribed Polovtsy, they killed Roman, and Oleg was given to the Greeks. They exiled him to the island of Rhodes, where he stayed for another fifteen years. Tmutarakan passed under the control of Kiev. According to another version, the Polovtsy were bribed by the Taman Khazars-Jews, who were tired of restless princes.

Destinations in Russia once again redistributed. The Grand Duke Vsevolod Yaroslavich did not offend the sons of the deceased brother Izyaslav - Svyatopolk left in Novgorod, Yaropolk gave Western Russia - Volyn and Turov principality. Left bank of the Dnieper gave his children. In Pereyaslavl he planted the younger son of Rostislav, Vladimir Monomakh - in Chernigov. For Monomah retained control in the Smolensk and Rostov-Suzdal principalities. Vladimir Vsevolodovich became the right hand, the main assistant of the sick father.

Vsevolod was unable to restore order and calm in Russia. Kiev trade-boyar elite accustomed to the weak prince Izyaslav, twirling them as she wanted. Vsevolod tried to promote his younger warriors, which caused discontent Kiev boyars. Yes, and the warriors themselves Vsevolod behaved not the best way. The prince could not keep track of them, in his old age he was ill, rarely left the palace, which was used by those close to him. Predatory continued. New managers vied with old, tried to get rich quickly.

There was no row in Russia. The struggle with Vseslav of Polotsk continued. At the turn of 1070-1080-ies the Polotsk prince conducted a campaign near Smolensk, plundered and burned the city. The Volga Bulgars captured Murom, made raids on the Suzdal lands. Again the tribes of the Vyatichi rose up, keeping loyalty to the old faith and having their own princes. Taking advantage of the weakness of the Kiev authorities, they generally fell away from the state. Polovtsi used the weakening of Russia, made raids. Torquay, who served the Grand Duke, seeing the weakening of the central government, revolted.

Vladimir Vsevolodovich had to put things in order with an iron hand. Now and then he raced with the squads to the north-west, then to the east, then to the south. In response, Vladimir ravaged the Polotsk land to Lukoml and Logozhsk, then conducted another expedition to Drutsk. At the beginning of the 1080-s, Vladimir Monomakh and Allied Polovtsy ruined and burned Minsk. Vseslav sat down in Polotsk, preparing for defense. But Monomakh did not go to him, and he did not become fixed in his principality. He took into account the past negative experience, when attempts to consolidate the Kiev troops in the Polotsk land led to a guerrilla war and an increase in the popularity of Vseslav among the local population. He resettled the local residents in his possessions near Suzdal and Rostov.

Monomakh visited the Oka, punished the Bulgars. He took on the hostile Polovtsy. When they went to Starodub, he broke them on the gums. Khans Asaduk and Sauk were captured. Then Vladimir made a new lightning strike and smashed the horde of Belkatgin Khan east of Novgorod-Seversky. Terrible prince-commander pacified and rebellious Torks.

At the beginning of the 1080s, two winter campaigns were conducted against the tribal alliance of Vyatichi. The fight was hard and bloody. The army of Vladimir laid siege to the capital of Vyatichi Kordno. The defense was headed by Prince Khodot and his son. Vyatichi fought back violently, went to the counter. Many brave warriors fell on both sides. The capital of the Vyatichi was taken, but Hodota left. Together with the pagan priesthood, he raised the people against the Monomakh troops. The battle was hard. Then the spit found on the stone. Vyatichi were masters of the forest war. Their militia swept away the professional squads, but the Vyatichi were strong in the forest, they set up ambushes. Skillfully used the knowledge of the area, went out from under the blow, suddenly counterattacked. Monomakh had to storm their oak fortresses, repelling the blows of detachments suddenly appearing in the forest. Along with men, as it was long accepted in Russia, women also fought. Surrounded by warriors preferred to kill themselves, not wanting to be captured. During the second campaign, Vladimir changed tactics. Instead of storming the remaining grades of Vyatichi and searching in the snowy forests of Khodot, he sought out pagan shrines. Vyatichi took an open battle, trying to protect the holy place for them. But in open battle, their militia lost to professional and better armed warriors. In one of these bloody clashes, the last prince of Khodyot Vyaticha Khodot fell, and the priests died. The resistance of the Vyatichi was broken, they resigned. Monomakh abolished the veche self-government of the Vyatichi, planted his governors. The lands of the Vyatichi entered the Chernigov principality.

And again, Vladimir did not know peace. Chased the Polovtsian troops. At the same time, the tough and victorious commander managed to be a zealous ruler, not repeating the mistakes of his father. In all cases he tried to grasp personally. Conducted unexpected inspections of cities and graveyards. He inspected the economy. He spoke with residents, the rules of the court and resolved disputes. Smolensk, completely destroyed, was rebuilt under his rule, Chernihiv was damaged after the wars and fires.



To be continued ...
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  1. Cartalon
    Cartalon 19 October 2017 06: 17
    +9
    I wish Rurikovich were surprised to learn that they have an empire that the insidious Rome wants to destroy.
    1. venaya
      venaya 19 October 2017 06: 33
      +5
      All Rurikovich just ran away from the deeds of this very treacherous Rome, from Wagria, or in other words from Varyazhskaya Rus. They fled east, to another part of the same Russia, later named Muscovy. And now, for some reason, Great Russia is called "empire" - a fashionable foreign word.
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 19 October 2017 07: 04
        11
        Quote: venaya
        Rurikovich just ran away from the deeds of this most insidious Rome,

        Yes, we didn’t run anywhere what They invented, Panimash, different tales, but believe in them laughing
        1. venaya
          venaya 19 October 2017 07: 14
          +3
          Quote: Rurikovich
          They invented, Panimash, different tales, but believe in them

          This is true about inventions. By the way, not only tales but also tales, all sorts of different stories, fiction, fiction, but why not yet invented, in general from all this chaos only the head goes around. And how not to believe, a person wants to believe in something: "either in Allah, then in ...", etc. A fairy tale - it is a fairy tale, so one must relate to it wisely.
          1. Tilkus75
            Tilkus75 19 October 2017 14: 04
            +3
            From it is the legacy of a 70 year old vacuum! Divorced unchristians of all stripes!
            1. Alex1117
              Alex1117 21 October 2017 08: 00
              +2
              And it’s nothing that during this period, as you deigned to say “vacuum”, we won the Great Patriotic War (and, accordingly, the Second World War), mastered the military and peaceful atom, launched a man into space, built orbital stations and so on . This, what do you think was done with the hands of soulless shadows? And for me - with the hands of spiritualized people.
              1. Tilkus75
                Tilkus75 23 October 2017 16: 09
                +1
                So the main thing is that to the glory of God, and not by pride! And at the expense of spirituality, you were right; she was not only the greatest self-sacrifice! Hegumen Nikon Vorobyov wrote "If the Iron Curtain Orthodoxy Ends Crashing" (maybe not literally but close in meaning)
                1. Alex1117
                  Alex1117 23 October 2017 22: 22
                  +2
                  But do you not allow self-sacrifice for the glory of the Motherland and in the name of Stalin? There is plenty of evidence that our fighters went on the attack with the cry "For the Motherland", or "For the Motherland, for Stalin." But there is no evidence that the soldiers went on the attack with the cry "For the glory of God" or "Christ is with us."
                  1. Golovan Jack
                    Golovan Jack 23 October 2017 22: 28
                    10
                    Quote: Alex1117
                    There is plenty of evidence that our fighters went on the attack with the cry "For the Motherland", or "For the Motherland, for Stalin"

                    This is a movie.
                    Grandfather said - they were attacking with an obscenity. Russian.
                    And no other way request
                    1. Alex1117
                      Alex1117 25 October 2017 21: 47
                      0
                      And so it happened. But there is a lot of evidence of the cries "For the Motherland, for Stalin." Well, then later, in the process of attack Uraaa and mat.
                      1. Burbon
                        Burbon 30 October 2017 09: 07
                        +1
                        Quote: Alex1117
                        But there is a lot of evidence of the cries "For the Motherland, for Stalin." Well, then later, in the process of attack Uraaa and mat.

                        there was ..... and do not lie .... cinema you can not help! fool ... either mate or just a guttural scream ....
          2. Nick
            Nick 19 November 2017 19: 38
            0
            Quote: venaya
            And how not to believe, a person wants to believe in something: "now in Allah, then in ..."

            Something is not necessary. Believe in the Holy Trinity.
            The Eastern Slavs retained in their memory the remains of ancient knowledge about the origin of man and about the Creator. Although the ancient Proto-Russ Slavs had a pantheon of gods, in their ancient faith there was a concept of the main triune God - Triglav (Jav, Prav and Nav)
        2. To be or not to be
          To be or not to be 19 October 2017 15: 13
          +2
          Yeah. first orange revolutions in Russia laughing
          The intrigues of the Khazar Khaganate .. laughing laughing
          It began with Vladimir the Baptist of Rus ... the son of Prince Svetoslav ... from the key keeper of his mother, Princess Olga - a certain Maluni or Malka ...
        3. ★ VLADIMIR ★
          ★ VLADIMIR ★ 11 November 2017 20: 37
          +1
          Quote: Rurikovich
          Quote: venaya
          Rurikovich just ran away from the deeds of this most insidious Rome,

          Yes, we didn’t run anywhere what They invented, Panimash, different tales, but believe in them laughing

          )) Yes of course. They appeared in the white light at the behest of the Vatican later than all.
    2. Proxima
      Proxima 19 October 2017 21: 47
      +3
      Russian is a sacred language. "Cold" and "Hunger" are synonymous words. The general meaning of these words is a GLOBAL LACK of ENERGY in the body (of a person). Mudras were our ancestors.
  2. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 19 October 2017 07: 18
    +4
    All this nonsense is based on the Radzivilov Chronicle and the Tale of Bygone Years, which raise doubts about the authenticity. Fuel to the fire is added to the information that, when planning the celebration of the birthday of Kiev under the USSR, Ukrainian officials decently panned the age of this very Kiev in papers. So, not everything is as simple as being presented to us. No.
    Given the fact that under the Romanovs, the destruction of church books that reflected the PRESENT history of the state took a massive turn, historians have to invent history based on a small amount of source material. And to make us believe that Nizhny Novgorod got its name not because it was downstream of the Volga from the real Veliky Novgorod, but just like that, it’s so customary. And the invented Veliky Novgorod on Volkhov arose because of the confusion in the maps and whims of the Romanovs. But no one doubts that, as it is right now, although confusion in the annals leads to the idea that something is wrong here. But historians know better, they are historians laughing Therefore, Nizhny Novgorod is located downstream of the Volga from Veliky Novgorod, which is WESTERN than this place on a completely different river - Volkhov (although even the names of the rivers are consonant, which also leads to confusion request)
    1. Cartalon
      Cartalon 19 October 2017 09: 14
      +4
      Nizhny Novgorod, he is Nizhny regarding Gorodets, Mr. Veliky Novgorod has nothing to do with it
      1. Alex1117
        Alex1117 21 October 2017 15: 01
        0
        Gorodets also has nothing to do with it. If in relation to Gorodets - it would be "Lower Gorodets". However, with the fact that Novgorod on Volkhov has nothing to do with it - of course I agree.
    2. Luga
      Luga 19 October 2017 16: 18
      +5
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Therefore, Nizhny Novgorod is located downstream of the Volga from Veliky Novgorod, which is WESTERN than this place on a completely different river - Volkhov (although even the names of the rivers are consonant, which also leads to confusion)

      Something I'm confused. "West of this place" - what do you mean?
      By the way, at the time of the founding of Nizhny Novgorod (the fact that at the confluence of the Volga and the Oka River, so as not to get confused), the beginning of the 13th century, if I’m not mistaken, the "bottom" for Novgorodians (from that Novgorod on Volkhov) was the common name of the lands of Russia located along the Volga and the Dnieper. That’s why it is also “lower”, that is, located “on the bottom”.
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 19 October 2017 18: 31
        +5
        Quote: Luga
        By the way, at the time of the founding of Nizhny Novgorod (the fact that at the confluence of the Volga and the Oka River, so as not to get confused), the beginning of the 13th century, if I’m not mistaken, the "bottom" for Novgorodians (from that Novgorod on Volkhov) was the common name of the lands of Russia located along the Volga and the Dnieper. That’s why it is also “lower”, that is, located “on the bottom”.

        The official told you this explanation laughing ? Do you believe in this nonsense? But isn’t it easier and more logical to believe that THIS Veliky Novgorod was the center of Russian land in the form of a number of cities around the Yaroslav Yard, that is. modern Yaroslavl, therefore a new city that appeared DOWN along the main trade artery of the Russian land of the Volga, was called Nizhny Novgorod, which is quite logical. But where is the logic in the alleged convenience for the Novgorodians of the official interpretation of such absurdity (for officialdom), I do not understand. And ask the official historian a simple question: WHY, according to the annals of Veliky Novgorod, after Grozny transferred the capital to Moscow, only the walls were demolished (in order to deprive the city of protection and downgrade its status), but modern Veliky Novgorod on Volkhov is worthless, and Yaroslavl is in full compliance with the annals (remained only towers without walls), but also in addition they find mass graves of human remains of the times of the Middle Ages (after the pogroms), and this is not observed in the city of V. Novgorod ...
        I believe logic and common sense, not what historians tell me. And they bypass this topic, because their explanations are absurd (like the "bottom" for the Novgorodians lol )
        Personally, my opinion request hi
        PS. Just sometimes listen to common sense and you will understand many absurdities in history smile
        1. Luga
          Luga 20 October 2017 13: 03
          0
          I agree that any information needs to be evaluated through the prism of its own common sense, I always tried to do just that.
          Which tells me my common sense.
          The first one. The Novgorod Republic owned all the drains from the rivers, the Baltic Sea basin into the rivers, flowing in other directions - Usvyaty (Zap. Dvina, further Dnieper), Vyshny Volochek (Volga), Vologda (Sev. Dvina). In relation to all the lands lying on the banks of these rivers, Novgorod land was "higher", and those, respectively, were "bottom".
          The second one. Novgorod itself is much older than most cities of White Russia and Zalesye, so the assumption that the toponymy of these areas was formed under the influence of immigrants from Novgorod seems to me correct.
          The third. Novgorod, of course, as a transit point of trade was much more important than any another city in Russia, since it intercepted most of the possible lines of trade routes through eastern Europe in the meridional direction. Any other city (Smolensk, Polotsk, Kiev,) kept only one of the paths. Therefore, Novgorod was richer and stronger than each of these cities. That is why the Novgorod Republic was able to master and subjugate vast territories in the Russian North, in the Urals. Actually, and Zalesye, i.e. The Volga-Oka interfluve, was originally in the sphere of influence of Novgorod and was finally lost to them after the battle on Zhdan-mount in 1135.
          I can’t agree with your assumptions regarding Yaroslavl, if only because the same arguments would also apply to Tver and Gorodets, for example. As for Yaroslav's Court in Novgorod the Great, he was there, on the right bank of the Volkhov River, its location is described in so many sources that I personally have no doubt.
          Regarding the walls of Novgorod and Yaroslavl, unfortunately, I will not say anything. I was not specifically interested in this issue, but I do not want to invent facts. I will only note that even if everything is exactly the way you write with archaeological research (I can doubt it because I don’t know what sources you used), then even in this form your assumption about the primacy of Yaroslavl as the political center of Russia over other cities in XI- XII centuries It seems to me completely groundless. About 500 years passed between the children of Yaroslav the Wise and Ivan the Terrible, Novgorod the Great and Yaroslavl in their significance at all times until the 18th century. were completely incomparable.
          It seems to me that logic and common sense are just on my side. This, of course, if one evaluates the available facts objectively and not biased.
          Quote: Rurikovich
          after the transfer of the capital by Grozny to Moscow

          I don’t get it. Is this something alternative? From the time of Kalita, Moscow was the actual capital of Russia, during the time of Dmitry Donskoy it was legalized (Mamai recognized the Great reign of the Moscow homeland), then all the rulers ruled from Moscow right up to Peter I. What does Grozny have to do with it?
          1. Alex1117
            Alex1117 21 October 2017 08: 20
            +2
            What and who Novgorod the Great "intercepted"? Do you know what was the speed of the Neva on the Ivanovo rapids before carrying out hydraulic works there already during the years of Soviet power? And it’s nothing that, in your opinion, the ancient merchants on the so-called “Varangians to Greeks” trade route look like complete idiots when they, on their way to Europe, having climbed the Dnieper, reach the Western Dvina, and spit on it from the heart, go further north, through the practically non-navigable Lovat? And then they go through Lake Ladoga, the most dangerous for shipping from all lakes (in order to prevent the loss of hundreds of ships every year under Peter the Great, they began to dig a canal along the southern shore of the lake, but Peter had nowhere to go - he already started building Petersburkh), then he went down along the Neva River, they end up in the Gulf of Finland, then in the Gulf of Riga, where they actually could have been a couple of months ago, just having gone down to it along the calm navigable Western Dvina in 3-4 days, when they reached the Western Dvina in the place from where, according to the followers, the ideas of the way "from the Varangians to the Greeks" through Novgorod supposedly popped into Lovat. No, from the point of view of normal logic, Smolensk is located much more profitable than Novgorod the Great.
            1. Alex1117
              Alex1117 21 October 2017 15: 13
              +2
              No less, and even more profitable Smolensk is Polotsk. Speaking of Polotsk. I get the impression that historians who introduced the version of the Great Way from the Varangians to the Greeks through Veliky Novgorod somehow realized the difficulty of introducing it into the minds precisely because of Polotsk. Therefore, they somehow so neatly led the Russian Polotsk beyond the framework of Russian history. Like, an independent dynasty ruled there, not that it had nothing to do with Rurikovich, but split off from the "main" branch of Rurikovich - the descendants of Vladimir Krasno muzzle, because, like a son from Rogneda, it’s not like Rurikovich. Although theoretically it is his offspring that is the oldest branch of the Ruriks. Similarly, in the historical shadow stands the already mentioned Smolensk. For it also interferes with historians - supporters of the version of the Great Way from the Varangians to the Greeks through Novgorod on the Volkhov.
            2. Yura Yakovlev
              Yura Yakovlev 25 October 2017 10: 54
              +2
              In the description of the Battle of Neva, it is said that the ladok’s warden arrived in time to help Alexander Nevsky. And no one has a question. Why did Alexander come to battle earlier? After all, the path was supposed to run through Ladoga? But in those days, Novgorodians did not go to the West through Ladoga and Neva. There was a direct road along the Luga River to the Gulf of Finland. The water level in those days was 4-8 meters higher, and therefore the Luga River connected directly to Lake Ilmen through the Shelon River. Now this can be done through the Meadows - Kiba - Mshaga - Shelon. Knowing that previous water level, it is easy to assume that Lovat was navigable almost to the Dnieper, and that along the Pole River, which flows into Ilmen, one could reach Polotsk. PS Residents of Novgorod are called Novgorodians, and residents of Nizhny (Novgorod) Nizhny Novgorod. It should be clear that Nizhny is not Novgorod.
              1. Alex1117
                Alex1117 25 October 2017 23: 22
                +1
                Unfortunately, you did not indicate where you got such information from, who came to the aid of anyone. The main source of our knowledge of the Battle of Neva is the First Novgorod Chronicle of the Elder. It says that Alexander, from Novgorod and Ladoga, went to Nya and defeat by the power of St. Sophia .... No first or second. Further. Where did you get such fantastic information that
                "the water level in those days was 4-8 meters higher." Why is it higher? Why "above". Yes, if it was really 4-8 meters higher, the Gulf of Finland would be twice as much. And by the way, then the Western Dvina, in your opinion, what was it like? Neil, Cupid or the Amazon? Or just a continuation of the Gulf of Riga? Then why where to swim, if that's it, the sea?
                1. Yura Yakovlev
                  Yura Yakovlev 28 October 2017 12: 02
                  +1
                  Why do you think that if Ilmen’s level was 4 meters higher, then the level of the Baltic should be so much higher. The Volkhov River was formed by the appearance of a ravine in the area of ​​the modern settlement of Krasnofororny. Then, after the Volkhov River was formed, after the overflow of Lake Ladoga, the Neva River was formed. Excavations in the region of the Okhta River showed that the village appeared even before the Neva River appeared. Thus, it turns out that St. Petersburg is even older than the legendary Slovensk. It is possible that the inhabitants of this village gave the primary names of the Volkhov River - the Mutnaya River, and Lake Ilmen - the Moisko Lake, and told Sloven and Rus about the places where you can settle.
                  1. Alex1117
                    Alex1117 29 October 2017 05: 23
                    +1
                    Since you did not specify which of the theories you have in mind, I thought that you mean the general increase in the level of the world's oceans. And if you mean the theory that 6 thousand years ago, only Ilmen’s level was higher, but then as a result of a breakthrough it fell to the present - then I can notice that according to the official history 6 thousand years ago there were neither Greeks nor Varangians. I’ll add from myself that there was no need for the exchange of goods, especially between such remote regions. Well, the problem of the Western Dvina disappeared. If 6 thousand years ago there was a larger catchment of the rivers feeding Ilmen, then there was also a larger catchment of the rivers creating the Western Dvina. And it, too, was a deeper and wider river than today.
                    1. Yura Yakovlev
                      Yura Yakovlev 31 October 2017 12: 42
                      +2
                      I agree with you that 6000 thousand years ago there were no Greeks, and there was no need for the exchange of goods, but there were Slavs (genus R1a1) and Rus (genus I). Rus were engaged in salting, hence their name is Varangian-Rus, and the mitten is a mitten for cooking salt. Rus on Ilmen founded a village by the salt lake. But how can one explain the desire of the Slavs to the east, if there was no need for exchange of goods. I’m sure that the Zapadnaya Dvina basin was developed much earlier than the shores of Lake Ilmen, but they didn’t stop there, but continued their movement further east, and after 500 years, according to geneticists, they came from Ilmen along the Mste and Mologa rivers to the Volga, and then to the Urals, where they founded Arkaim, and not just one but several, and began to melt copper and iron there. In my opinion, everything suggests that the Slavs had knowledge and technology for smelting metals, but did not have access to raw materials in the era of the Stone Age. Without this, a dozen millennia will not be enough to learn how to get iron from swamp ore.
          2. Yura Yakovlev
            Yura Yakovlev 2 November 2017 14: 21
            0
            "Novgorod the Great and Yaroslavl in their significance at all times up to the XNUMXth century were completely incompatible."
            All disputes arise from ignorance or misunderstanding of the names. Yaroslavl, as well as Yuryev (now Tartu) were founded by Yaroslav the Wise, who was born in Novgorod, therefore Yaroslavl cannot be older than Novgorod because Yaroslav cannot be older than Novgorod in which he was born.
            Now, what does Mr. Veliky Novgorod mean? Novgorodians call the city simply Novgorod. Veliky Novgorod was understood as a territory that was influenced by the ends of Novgorod. Nerevsky - North and North-West, where Ugro-Finnish tribes and nationalities lived - Sum, Em, Izhora, Vod, Chud, Karela and others, Slavensky - South from Kiev to the Southern Urals And Ludin end - western lands. Thus, the word Veliky Novgorod meant the entire territory of Novgorod Land. By the word Mr. was meant the designation of the city as the capital of the state, the main city of Novgorod Land.
        2. andrew42
          andrew42 2 November 2017 13: 16
          0
          A beautiful version about Veliky Novgorod on the Oka. And I myself would like to believe in it. But there is one “BUT” - the VARYAGI, and all that is connected with them, namely: 1) the participation of the Varangians (Western Russians, “watching” the Baltic so to speak) in the political life of Veliky Novgorod for several centuries - this is a fact; 2) the way "from the Varangians to the Greeks" doesn’t climb through the Oka; 3) Rurik and his Varangians-Rus pillaged the citadel in Ladoga, which is also in the land of that very "northern" Novgorod - this also has no rebuttals today; 4) the city of Slovensk, based on the river Mutnaya “now recommending Volkhov”, cannot be thrown out of the annals, that is, Novgorod is “northern” - in any case, an important city, not an outback. As a result, thinking reasonably, it does not work in any way that Veliky Novgorod (where the princes of the sons imprisoned) was attached to Oka. I would like, but ... no way. Although I completely agree that the large and important cities of the Slavic tribes from ancient times were in Moscow (Moscow), and on the Oka, and even on the White Lake, in the Vologda land, because our ancestors did not run anywhere, as they have been sitting on the lands of Rassenia for thousands of years , including the "culture of battle axes," and sat. The fact that many of these cities of the great have faded and faded from memory are the fruits of the Christianization of Russia. "Survived" exclusively those where the Christians of the churches poked. Here the author rightly noted Kordno, the city of Vyatichi. What we know about him today is nothing but a flimsy mention hidden deeper than the deep. To the monks to leave a mention of the Russian cities of "non-Christians" was not only unnecessary, but generally dangerous. Today we know a lot about Voronezhets from ancient chronicles, but nothing again. But there are oral epics, and the "Hun" cities have recently been unearthed. In general, throwing Novgorod the Great to the place of Nizhny Novgorod / Yaroslavl is passionate in the debate, and in fact, generally reducing the number of ancient Slavic cultural centers.
          1. Yura Yakovlev
            Yura Yakovlev 2 November 2017 14: 42
            +1
            "In general, throwing Novgorod the Great to the place of Nizhny Novgorod / Yaroslavl is a passion in the debate, but in fact is generally a decrease in the number of ancient Slavic cultural centers." I completely agree with you. They put Nizhny above Veliky Novgorod, and they try to present the Legend of Slovene and Rus and the city of Slovensk as a fairy tale or fiction. In fact, Slovensk is exactly where it should be according to the description (On the right bank of the Volkhov River, 3,5 km south of Novgorod, at a depth of 4 meters from the surface opposite Peryn. Vasily Stepanovich Predolsky excavated it at the beginning of the twentieth century. During the excavation, he caught a cold and died.
  3. Nix1986
    Nix1986 19 October 2017 07: 22
    +1
    A typical beginning of the era of feudal fragmentation. True, Europe recovered over time, workshops began to appear, cities received freedom and heaps of benefits. We should have had the same thing, but we had the Mongols and Russia, as always, saved Europe. One can only guess how much we lagged behind in development due to the Mongol invasion and the subsequent Iga, some say 100 years, others 200. But the essence is the same, we had the same processes as in the rest of Europe, only then Russia had to be accepted again kick on yourself.
    1. venaya
      venaya 19 October 2017 08: 47
      +6
      Quote: Nix1986
      One can only guess how much we are behind in development due to the Mongol invasion and the subsequent Iga ..

      N ... yes. Indeed: only Russian women wore 80% of the pearls from all the pearls (apparently from poverty?). About "Mongol invasion"- the Mongols themselves as a nation appear that way in the XNUMXth century, although this term appeared earlier in the XNUMXth century. The term"иго"also not Nashen, not of our origin, its appearance is now attributed to the XNUMXth century, that is, after we have been credited with what should not be by definition. By the way, the term"Europe"it’s also fresh, it appeared only in the XNUMXth century. You see, what the foreigners wrote to us here couldn’t be anything, try to make sure of this by the leading and most respected historians in the historical society of the country. Since we are fully the program has been brainwashed, I don’t think it’s worthwhile to say anything about the past, it’s better to take a closer look at the materials available today. It’s better to draw conclusions later, when all the dregs and poppycock dissipate, and only then it is worth starting to draw preliminary conclusions carefully.
      1. Nix1986
        Nix1986 19 October 2017 09: 00
        +4
        Well, yes, it is clear that Ryazan, Pereyaslavl and other cities, as well as their population, have greatly benefited from the arrival of the Mongols :))) Watch less REN TV. As for the pearls of women, well, Sarmatian women were also strewed with gold trinkets, but no one even calls the Sarmatians some kind of civilization.
        1. venaya
          venaya 19 October 2017 09: 11
          +6
          What year is it: "Mongols came to Ryazan, Pereyaslavl and other cities"? In the XXth century or something, before this time, the Mongols have not yet been seen.
          Quote: Nix1986
          Well, Sarmatian women were also strewed with gold trinkets, but no one even calls the Sarmatians some kind of civilization.

          And why is that "they don’t call the Sarmatians civilization"- although simple logic suggests that it was just Russian civilization. Again, why is no one talking about this yet? You yourself, to whom you refer these same Sarmatians, can be extraterrestrials?
          1. Nix1986
            Nix1986 19 October 2017 09: 25
            +4
            You know, I have a banal conscience and respect for the ancestors who laid down their heads on Kalka, in Ryazan, Pereyaslavl and other places does not allow me to say that there was no Tatar-Mongol invasion and the yoke of the golden horde, it was all a lie, but there was peaceful trade . I have the honor, I do not want to continue this conversation.
            1. venaya
              venaya 19 October 2017 09: 38
              +5
              Quote: Nix1986
              .. to me commonplace conscience and respect for the ancestors who laid their heads on Kalka, in Ryazan, Pereyaslavl and other places does not allow us to say that there was no Tatar-Mongol invasion and the yoke of the golden horde, this is all a lie ..

              I respect the ancestors myself. But what does conscience have to do with it? I understand that you were not a participant in these battles, and how did you only find out about them, are these your sources worthy of respect. So what about the conscience of these very sources? - Personally, I myself strongly doubt that they, these sources, have any form of conscience, examples of darkness, try to check on your own. And so, with such fanaticism, you can occasionally sign up for igil, please be careful in these matters.
            2. Boris55
              Boris55 19 October 2017 11: 35
              0
              Quote: Nix1986
              ... I have a banal conscience and respect for my ancestors ...

              Are you from a newcomer? Your pro grandfather before the 10-th century in Russia was not?
              1. Nix1986
                Nix1986 19 October 2017 12: 06
                +1
                And where did they get that from the newcomers ?! You yourself know so far yourself? And why this question?
            3. Alex1117
              Alex1117 21 October 2017 11: 33
              +2
              You correctly and subtly noticed that it is your "banal" conscience that does not give you something there. And my non-banal conscience does not give me the right to agree with the version that supposedly my ancestors 300 were under a certain "yoke". My (our) ancestors did not know any "yoke". Everything is elementary simple. The version of 300-400 thousand Mongol-Tatars, who allegedly attacked Russia on the winter, when daylight hours are 5-6 hours and the horses have nothing to eat, can not stand any criticism. And the version, it’s these very “Tatar-Mongols”, supposedly in fact there were 30-40 thousand people and with these forces they supposedly “enslaved” Russia - this is the brazen humiliation of my (our) ancestors.
              1. Alex1117
                Alex1117 21 October 2017 11: 57
                +1
                The West about the 300-year-old yoke and the subsequent "savagery" of Muscovites, which was the result of the "yoke", threw us into punishment for the fact that my ancestors did not go under the rule of the Roman priest. And in order for us (such "gullibles" like you) to swallow better, and even require supplements, it was decorated with various beautiful wrappers, such as a description of the heroic deeds of "Evpatiy Kolovrat", the heroic defense of Kozelsk and others.
                1. Nix1986
                  Nix1986 23 October 2017 08: 55
                  0
                  There is a category of people who, even in their impotence and diarrhea, will also blame the West. My stomach starts to ache from talking with such people. When I hear the word “the West is to blame” for me it’s a marker, as for the psychiatrist “the doctor the devils came to visit me”. A user with the nickname “Luga” below said more than exactly.
                  1. Alex1117
                    Alex1117 23 October 2017 22: 35
                    +3
                    There is a category of people who believes everything that is written in books such as school books. In principle, they are not capable of thinking. From them, normal thinking people develop heartburn on those who are not able and do not want to think. Our ancestors did not know any yoke. Found a lot of genuine documents - birch bark letters. None of them have even a hint of any yoke, of the Basques, of the Mongols, and so on. The author of the first historical collection about Russia is Gisel. Baltic German, graduated from Jesuit College. Type in any search "Gisel Synopsis" and you will be happy. And the version about the "yoke" was the first (one of the first) to be thrown by the Pole Matvey Mehovsky (16th century). His task was to show that the last bastion of civilization in eastern Europe is Poland. And then beyond it is only wild Muscovy, just freed from the yoke.
                  2. Alex1117
                    Alex1117 28 October 2017 09: 31
                    +2
                    There is a category of fortunetellers who even blame the fictional "Mongol invasion" for their impotence and diarrhea. Their eternal lamentations on the subject of “Ah, one can only guess how far we would go from the West in the treatment of impotence and diarrhea, if not for these nasty“ Mongols ”- I, as well as the masses of normal critics who were crying and lamenting for these handlers , people, cause nothing but heartburn. When I hear the expression "the Mongols who came to us are to blame for everything" is for me a marker, for a psychiatrist the expression "Doctor, the devils came to my apartment ... and all this because of them."
                    By the way, you are our fortuneteller, you yourself personally guess what? On coffee grounds? On beans?
      2. Luga
        Luga 19 October 2017 16: 48
        +3
        Quote: venaya
        About the "Mongol invasion"

        Somehow I’m already used to your statements, like to some kind of lulling background, but today something has invigorated again. You know, I was very annoyed by your categorical statements, based on don’t understand what, don’t understand how, until I realized that behind all this activity is just terry ignorance, covered as a patchwork with the most superficial knowledge in the field of pseudo-history and pseudo-linguistics. If all this is multiplied by a fierce, fanatical conviction that you are right, which, in principle, is characteristic of limited people, it is likely that what we have in your face is obtained.
        Quote: venaya
        try to make sure of this with today's leading and most respected historians in the historical society of the country.

        It would be very interesting to know who you are. Most likely our lists of such people do not have a single coincidence.
        Quote: venaya
        The term "yoke"

        Quote: venaya
        the term "Europe"

        From your posts you can see that term juggling is your favorite pastime. But I would really like for this juggling to have at least some thought. Call black itself white and red green if you want, but let normal people call a spade a spade: Germany - Germany, Prussia - Prussia, the Tatar-Mongol yoke (the period of political dependence of Russia on the nomadic steppe states) - the yoke, the Mongols - Mongols and Europe - Europe.
        1. Operator
          Operator 19 October 2017 20: 16
          +2
          Quote: Luga
          Somehow I’m already used to your statements, like to some kind of sleepy background, but today something has invigorated again

          Offend venaya - he's the only one here laughing
          1. Velizariy
            Velizariy 27 October 2017 09: 53
            0
            No, not one, still Boris55, At least two.
        2. Alex1117
          Alex1117 21 October 2017 12: 03
          +2
          The term "nomadic state" is nonsense. The state cannot be nomadic. There may be a state in which a significant part of the inhabitants is engaged in seasonal nomadic cattle breeding. That is, cattle are driven in a circle (square, oval, and so on) depending on the time of year. But at the same time there are residents living settled.
          1. Velizariy
            Velizariy 27 October 2017 10: 55
            0
            Quote: Alex1117
            The term "nomadic state" is nonsense. The state cannot be nomadic.

            Even as you can.
            Nomadic state is a term adopted in historical literature to refer to a special form of organization of power inherent in nomadic societies. The basis of such a state was not infrastructure (caravan routes and cities (settlements), centers of trade and crafts) in a certain territory (which was also not excluded), but the strategically important importance of land, the possession of which gave the basis for the existence of the state.
            Be careful with peremptory, and then at a glance showed their "knowledge" and "education."
            1. Alex1117
              Alex1117 27 October 2017 19: 31
              +2
              The use of this completely meaningless definition from the “historical literature” is much better indicative of the level of “knowledge” and “education”. But the level of cramming shows.
              1. Alex1117
                Alex1117 28 October 2017 04: 48
                +2
                Example. In the forests on the territory of partly present-day Canada, partly the United States, once lived nomadic Iroquois who possessed notables. The question is whether the Iroquois had a state. We have the same thing: Sami, Nenets, Evenki, Khanty, Mansi, Yakut, Chukchi, Koryak, Buryats, Tuvans ... they all owned land. But no one, including the “historical literature” you have taken as the standard of truth, believes that all of the above were states. While exactly the same hulk (which in the 19th century “historical literature” began to call “Mongols”), the state allegedly existed. The same with respect to various Kazakh zhuzes and the mass of other tribes.
        3. Velizariy
          Velizariy 27 October 2017 10: 25
          +1
          Quote: Luga
          If all this is multiplied by a fierce, fanatical conviction that you are right, which, in principle, is characteristic of limited people

          There is such a thing in psychiatry and psychology as obsession (lat. Obsessio - “siege”, “embracing.” The main symptom of the obsession is various and multiple obsessive ideas and thoughts. I emphasize the word “obsessive”, which means strangers, not their own, but based on their psychological, some kind of subconscious conflicts, phobias, and most importantly pride, which Dolboslavs clearly trace in their idea of ​​past greatness and world domination and genetic features (typical Nazism, by the way) and the loss of all this for the reason that they all have one, - the origin of Christianity, they have no other reasons, the rest is a consequence. If they are obsessive, alien and not their own, then the question arises: whose? Below I wrote about a friend who was Dolboslav, and so he said, only later, after recovery, the word “recovery” I write without quotes that this idea simply took hold of him and occupied his head, there was great interest in it and sometimes, even in that state, he noticed that someone kinda feeds this idea in his head t and in every possible way protects from logical understanding, and when thinking, an internal dispute arose that naturally played out and the idea occupied consciousness even more. That is, your definition of limitedness, in this case, can be interpreted as limitedness not mental, but limitedness created and maintained, which, as the example of my friend showed, disappears after recovery.
          1. Luga
            Luga 28 October 2017 15: 12
            0
            Quote: Velizariy
            That is, your definition of limitedness, in this case, can be interpreted as limited not mental, but limited created and maintained

            When I wrote about "limited people," I did not think that this term can be dissected in this way. smile hi
            I thought about what I had in mind ... You know, probably, nevertheless, in my head there was no image of "limitation" in anything concrete. Limited in something - means limited. smile
            Perhaps one should write "the degree of conviction in one's own rightness is directly proportional to the degree of limitation", this would more accurately express my thought. smile hi
          2. Alex1117
            Alex1117 30 October 2017 19: 19
            +3
            Some have "about the past greatness and world domination of their nation." Others have "about the past greatness and world domination of a foreign Mongolian nation and about the past humiliation of their nation." From the point of view of psychiatry, that one deviation, that another deviation, are one and the same. But choosing from two equivalent deviations, I cannot help but notice that that which exalts its own nation is at least pleasing to the soul. Russian soul, of course.
      3. JoJo
        JoJo 20 November 2017 23: 30
        0
        "By the way, the term" Europe "is also fresh, it appeared only in the XNUMXth century" the term and the word Europe appeared in ancient Greece to mean first the goddess of the earth, and then the region.
  4. parusnik
    parusnik 19 October 2017 07: 24
    0
    The elite ambitions of the princes and nobles eventually destroyed the empire of the Rurikovich
    ..Then RI, the USSR and now almost the same thing ...
    1. Cartalon
      Cartalon 19 October 2017 09: 19
      0
      Obviously, the princes had to abandon the rights to the tables and voluntarily go into exile, and the boyars recognize themselves as serfs.
  5. Molot1979
    Molot1979 19 October 2017 07: 36
    +8
    Another dolboslavets ... First, how did the adoption of Christianity contribute to the collapse of Russia? This connection is only in the minds of the authors who were slightly moved in paganism. Just because Christianity. It also caused decay everywhere.
    Secondly, the version of the assassination of Boris and Gleb by Yaroslav is based solely on one saga of Scandinavian origin, which was recorded 300 years after the events. It’s possible to add any kind of science fiction to the case, the benefit of alternatives in history is now a dime a dozen. In fact, Svyatopolk is no son to Vladimir (but the son of his brother Yaropolk, whom Vladimir had slaughtered in the negotiations at the time), and Gleb is not "just a prince", but just the heir to Vladimir, who was given an army for a raid against the Pechenegs. And then they could give an army only to those whom the Old Man decided to leave the throne.
    The reasons for the collapse of Russia are a wagon and a small cart. The leaf system itself, ideal in concept to maintain unity, in fact led to disintegration. The idea was gorgeous: each prince is given a chance to sit on the main throne, but he must be occupied in turn. But, as it is not difficult to understand, she would be good if the princes did not breed, like all people. As a result, the queue swelled, the chance to be the prince of Kiev fell exponentially, until finally those who stood farthest from the throne began to pursue their military strength, and then realized that it was better to have their own specific tit in their hands than the distant Kiev crane in the sky. Which ended with the Lubech Congress and the principle "everyone is holding his homeland." And there were also economic reasons for the split: the decline in the value of the trade route "from the Vikings to the Greeks." While Kiev kept this, albeit under control, something fell from all the princes. But then the First Cross happened, Europe broke through a shorter trade route to Eastern goods, the sense of unity around the trade route structure fell, and with it the need to stick together was gone. More or less unity was maintained while there was a real Polovtsian danger, but after the campaigns of Vladimir Monomakh and his son, the Polovtsy were besieged, and after the death of Mstislav the Great, the last vestiges of unity collapsed. From now on, it was supported only by the cultural affinity and position of the Church, which was so fiercely denounced by a certain Samsonov, an admirer of a certain "Vedic faith." Meanwhile, it was precisely Christianity in the form of Orthodoxy that supported the idea of ​​unification and in the end was able to break through this idea in alliance with the Principality of Moscow, which so far was not on the political map ... But where the position of the Church was weak, for example, in Volyn and in Galicia, everything went very bad there and these regions generally fell out of the Russian world.
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 19 October 2017 08: 31
      +1
      Quote: Molot1979
      ... how did the adoption of Christianity contribute to the collapse of Russia?

      At that distant time, various beliefs played the role of modern parties, striving for sole domination. As a result of the confrontation between Orthodoxy and Christianity, and the betrayal of the bored magi - Christians won.
    2. venaya
      venaya 19 October 2017 11: 19
      +4
      Quote: Molot1979
      How did the adoption of Christianity contribute to the collapse of Russia? This connection is only in the minds of the authors who were slightly moved in paganism. Just because Christianity. It also caused decay everywhere. .. just Christianity in the form of Orthodoxy supported the idea of ​​unification and in the end was able to break through this idea in alliance with the principality of Moscow ..

      How would I explain this to you: terminologically, Christianity itself is divided into several branches, more often people confuse concepts. For example, the Russian Orthodox Church (Orthodox) emerges in 1943, in a terrible war when no one cared to understand what Orthodoxy is, what Christianity is, and what the Vedic religions are. Until the end, there is no clarity about the time of the appearance of the Greek Orthodox Church - after all, no information about that time has been preserved. almost everything is destroyed. It is known that after the defeat of Byzantium, Moscow was already the "Moscow Patriarchal Church of the Greek Rite" - I note that it is also Orthodox and not Orthodox. Orthodoxy in Russia has been for centuries, a record of the XNUMXth century on Orthodoxy in Russia was recorded. Only this one the form of Orthodoxy was Vedicwhether it was Christian or not is difficult to answer, but the Greeks have nothing to do with it. In Russia before Peter, after his arrival from abroad, Greek Christianity was misunderstood, everyone used the Vedic Russian-speaking Orthodox faith, and the Greek Christians of the Moscow Patriarchate made up a fraction of a percent of the population. No one knew either the Greek language or Hebrew, in which the books of this Christianity were written, only the close associates of the king could understand something there. So what you write here is very far from reality, apparently this topic is far from you and you do not care what you wrote. Try to take a closer look at basic concepts. See: Shpakovsky ("caliber") never writes such nonsense, because he is silent, but he doesn’t dare to lie so thoroughly. But others, as it were, are allowed everything, given their total lack of competence in these matters. It would be nice for you personally to better understand the basic concepts of religions and at least their names.
      1. Monarchist
        Monarchist 19 October 2017 16: 51
        +1
        Comrade Venaya, here you tell us about Vedic Orthodoxy, otherwise I still thought that Orthodoxy is the eastern branch of Christianity
        1. venaya
          venaya 19 October 2017 17: 23
          +2
          "Eastern branch of Christianity"- unlike the western branch, the Roman Catholic Church has its own name, namely, the Greek Orthodox Church, and until now our foreign branch has the name" Russian (foreign) Orthodox Church ", that is, the Russian Orthodox Church (foreign) ", and the term" Orthodoxy "was officially introduced for the first time only during the war in 1943. Who then thought to understand the meaning of such ancient Russian words. Therefore, when reading materials about pre-Christian, especially before Rurik Rus, natural misunderstandings necessarily arise. The term itself "Orthodoxy" was recorded back in the XNUMXth century, before the official adoption of Christianity, which we recognized as Russian, but which of the Russian people in Russia adhered to this new religion is a fraction of a percent, so it was proposed to translate the scriptures into some almost Russian language called " Church Slavonic ", which was done only in the XNUMXth century. So consider how many people in Russia understood this strange Greek religion. The ovine mass as it was according to the Orthodox tradition (before the Christian sense) remained. Even under Peter I, all the old religions (Old Believers) were banned under pain of death, and a lot of people were then implanted, and the term Orthodoxy remained in the memory of people, why the "Greek Orthodox" was simply renamed the "Orthodox". Now go, explain something to people, they don’t understand, and even that ..
          1. Boris55
            Boris55 19 October 2017 20: 15
            0
            Quote: venaya
            Now go explain something to people

            So what is there to explain? The right to praise is not to praise Christ!
      2. Monarchist
        Monarchist 19 October 2017 17: 18
        +2
        Comrade Venay, here you are, and an enlightener, but I still thought: Orthodoxy is one of the "branches" of the Christianity. So it is said in the atheist’s reference book of 1975,
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. Velizariy
      Velizariy 19 October 2017 15: 18
      +6
      Quote: Molot1979
      Another dolboslav

      Here is their sea, even admins and those dolboslavs)))
      Do not sport with sick cultists! They will answer any your clever argument with rudeness and enchanting nonsense.
      And the author of this set of nonsense just again missed taking medication and the admin is publishing this too))
    5. Luga
      Luga 19 October 2017 17: 10
      +2
      Quote: Molot1979
      The reasons for the collapse of Russia are a wagon and a small cart.

      I agree. And these reasons are primarily economic, not political. Each principality at that time could exist and develop separately, without needing trade relations with its neighbors. Only Novgorod could not feed itself, but this factor has been noted only since the 12th century; during the period described, its population has not yet reached such an amount as to be dependent on food imports. The Lubech Congress simply fixed “de jure” what has long been established “de facto”.
      Quote: Molot1979
      From now on, it was supported only by the cultural proximity and position of the Church,

      Again, I agree. It was the Orthodox Church that was the spiritual bond that allowed subsequently to unite Russia again. If Russia had remained in paganism with its religious tolerance and indifference to everything, Catholics and Muslims would have pulled us apart. And so you throw the cry "For holy Russia, for Orthodox faith" and it becomes very clear to a simple person what it is necessary to fight for, who is his own and who is the enemy.
      Quote: Molot1979
      which some Samsonov so vehemently denounced

      This is his third hypostasis awake. Until he settles down, we will have fun.
      1. Alex1117
        Alex1117 21 October 2017 12: 56
        +1
        And so you throw a cry, and everything becomes clear to a simple person. And now there is such a system of "ordinary people", which includes the Slavs, Tatars, Bashkirs, Mordovians, Mari, Chuvash, Permyaks, Udmurts, Meria and so on ...... and all that is clear to them.
      2. Alex1117
        Alex1117 21 October 2017 19: 12
        +2
        They often talk about the fact that Novgorod could not feed itself, but they don’t give justifications. Why was Novgorod supposedly unable to feed itself? What, in the Novgorod gardens did not grow turnips with cabbage? In the Novgorod forests there was a poor harvest of saffron milk, and all the hares, wild boars and moose fled to Europe? Novgorod cows stopped milking, and Novgorod chickens stopped rushing? In Novgorod marshes, crop failures of cranberries? Did fish and crayfish disappear in Novgorod rivers and lakes? Why did the Swedes, Norwegians and even Icelanders feed themselves, but the Novgorodians could not?
        1. Yura Yakovlev
          Yura Yakovlev 25 October 2017 11: 13
          0
          In 1230, due to the fact that from April to October (Pokrov) it rained, and then frost hit and snow fell, a terrible famine broke out in Smolensk and Novgorod. In Novgorod, over 30 thousand people died of starvation. people, and in Smolensk about 50 thousand. This is officially reflected in the annals.
          1. Alex1117
            Alex1117 25 October 2017 23: 56
            +2
            So who could not feed themselves? Smolensk or Novgorod? And if it rained from April to October, that means the grass grew well. So, there was something to eat cows, goats, sheep, horses. So it was milk, sour cream, butter, cheese, meat. If it rained, it means a good harvest of carrots, beets, turnips, cabbage, cucumbers ..... it means there was something to feed the pigs. So in the forests and even in the fields there were mushrooms. Plenty of fish. Well, the fact that in October frost hit and snow fell - so what's so surprising about this? Snow and frost are actually supposed to be in October.
    6. Alex1117
      Alex1117 21 October 2017 12: 43
      +2
      The way from the Varangians to the Greeks and from the Greeks to the Varangians through Kiev and Novgorod is a chimera, designed to somehow support one of the most stupid versions in Christianity: the journey of a certain "Apostle Andrew" from Korsun to Rome through Kiev, Novgorod, Lake Ladoga, Finnish Gulf, Baltic .... Well, anyway, if you go from Moscow to St. Petersburg through Krasnoyarsk. For the connection of Constantinople with the Vikings, the Danube is best suited. In the Regensburg area there is now a canal connecting the Danube with the Rhine. Previously, there was a drag. Also, from the Danube by a small overland passage, you can easily go to the water systems of the Vistula, Laba (Elba), and Oder.
    7. Alex1117
      Alex1117 21 October 2017 15: 27
      +1
      There is something in this version. No wonder the Christian missionaries who spread Christianity among the warlike Indians didn’t particularly pedal such basic tenets of the Christian religion as: “hit you on the right cheek - turn the left one” and “love your enemy”. The last postulate of another year was transformed into "love your enemy killed by you." Otherwise, the Indians would simply despise this submissive religion. It is unlikely that the freedom-loving Slavs, whose custom was blood feud, immediately began to unite under the flag of the idea "hit me on the right cheek - I will substitute the left." Christianity is a religion aimed at preventing the people from speaking out against their oppression by the ruling elite. And it could be implanted among the people only in conditions of an already sufficiently strong state.
    8. Alex1117
      Alex1117 29 October 2017 08: 07
      +2
      Perhaps in no way. But the official history tells us that while the rulers of Russia were not Christians, Russia was one (toleg, Igor, Svyatoslav). And to divide it into destinies was the first ruler, Christian Vladimir.
      Again, it is possible, but not a fact, if Christianity had not been adopted, the Scandinavian or even Ottoman principle of maintaining the unity of the country could have been adopted in Russia. The Scandinavians younger brothers of the ruling king were expelled, the Ottomans destroyed. The principles are seemingly tough. But useful for the country. In the Ottoman Empire, a semblance of civil war was recorded only once, when the ruling Sultan Bayazid was captured and soon died there.
      Whose son Svyatopolk is is unknown. The chronicler with a candle was not standing by anyone. And indeed the exact number of even the so-called "legitimate" sons of Vladimir is not exactly known. And in relation to those who are of the type “known,” official science is confused - who comes from which mother.
      What the army could give only to the heir is only your guess. First, it is not known which part of the army Gleb took away. Is the whole army, is it half, a third, a quarter? Secondly, the army could lead any governor, not related to the "princes of blood."
      About the fact that the Crusades struck a short let, even to oriental goods - also purely your speculation. No influx of eastern goods into Europe after the Crusades was recorded in history. Well, except for trophies. But there are no goods — all kinds of spices.
      The path from the "Greeks to the Vikings", if there was one, then passed along the Danube. Some branches could pass along the waterways "Southern Bug - Western Bug". In extreme cases, along the Dnieper-Western Bug-Vistula waterway. In the most extreme "Dnieper-Western Dvina". But no way through Lake Ladoga.
      By the way, given that even according to your "crusader" version, eastern goods were delivered to ports of the eastern Mediterranean by land, it seems strange that everything in Europe should have been delivered exclusively by waterways.
  6. kalibr
    kalibr 19 October 2017 08: 18
    +6
    Did not find either about the superethnos of the Rus, nor the machinations of the insidious English? What happened?
    1. Mikado
      Mikado 19 October 2017 08: 51
      +4
      the machinations of insidious English?

      time is not that, Vyacheslav Olegovich. Proto-Englishmen only equipped their new economy after the campaign of William Bastard. It is necessary to wait. wink It says at the end - "to be continued" laughing
    2. Velizariy
      Velizariy 19 October 2017 15: 24
      +3
      Quote: kalibr
      I did not find about the superethnos of Russians

      You simply did not carefully read this nonsense, it is in this nonsense that the author reveals the "culprit" of lowering him and his super-ethnos of hyperruses. And openly calls him. That’s the whole point of trying this provocateur. And now all the Dolboslavs merged in ecstasy to the end.
      1. venaya
        venaya 19 October 2017 16: 41
        0
        Quote: Velizariy
        .. did not carefully read this nonsense, it is in this nonsense that the author reveals the "culprit" of lowering him and his super-ethnos of hyperruses. And openly calls him. That’s the whole point of trying this provocateur. ..

        And what is the other opinion on this? May be not too lazy to present at least one. The author is accurate, the defeat of Russia is evident (or on the face), hence all your truly provocative, venomously poisonous bile in relation to the author of the article. As I understand it, you personally don’t even have any “superethnos” at all, and you don’t even have a simple ethnos - hence the bestial, not human malice and, without any justification, vile diarrhea. I think that you should not appear in such a way on such a serious site, it is not for you, not for people with such a pronounced inferiority complex. You actually come from which country, and what are you doing here? Maybe you miss your other tiny "homeland", and by the way where is she, on this planet?
      2. Luga
        Luga 19 October 2017 17: 30
        +4
        Quote: Velizariy
        And now all the Dolboslavs merged in ecstasy to the end.

        "At the end" you, as I understand it, specifically wrote separately ... Well, I agree.
        laughing
        Inspired.
        Samsonov is dedicated to the third hypostasis.
        "Great Russian superethnos
        We need to save immediately
        Take the Vedic fortress
        To spite the most insidious enemies
        Drive into the coffin w ... in burry
        And the Anglo-Saxons, finally! "
        ... And now all the Dolboslavs
        Merged in ecstasy - at the end.
        1. Mikado
          Mikado 20 October 2017 11: 47
          +4
          Michael, did you write it yourself? Applause, however! good
          1. Luga
            Luga 20 October 2017 13: 13
            +2
            Quote: Mikado
            Michael, did you write it yourself? Applause, however! good

            Thank you. hi But I was not alone. I was inspired in a good way by Velizariy, in all other senses - the "Dolboslavs" named by him.
            1. Mikado
              Mikado 20 October 2017 13: 21
              +3
              but it turned out really good for you. good This is how a person, under the influence of emotions from reading, receives inspiration, and the creative process is completed. hi drinks
        2. Velizariy
          Velizariy 27 October 2017 10: 01
          +2
          Quote: Luga
          specially written separately

          Well, you know how their idols on the temples look and look like. In addition to the Dolboslavs, they have one more name ...
    3. Operator
      Operator 19 October 2017 20: 20
      +2
      Quote: kalibr
      I did not find about the superethnos of Russians

      Poorly searched - now it goes through the column "Scythian Power" laughing
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 19 October 2017 21: 02
        +1
        Oh Lord, your blows are strong! So it's called now, here it is ...
  7. Romey
    Romey 19 October 2017 14: 26
    +3
    “From this moment began a long period of the merger of Christianity with Russian paganism, which, after several centuries, completed the creation of fiery Russian Orthodoxy (the glories of the Rights).”

    After this paragraph, I stopped reading this opus. Fomenkovism lives and wins.
  8. Monarchist
    Monarchist 19 October 2017 16: 38
    +1
    Quote: Tilkus75
    From it is the legacy of a 70 year old vacuum! Divorced unchristians of all stripes!

    Perhaps I agree: remember how many centuries ago Orthodoxy was established in our country, and now look: Adventists, Baptists, some evangelists, lessons, aumsenrica (a couple of years ago there was information about them in the media. And Satanists first appeared in the seventies ("The investigation led "Kanevsky).
    Under the emperor: Adventists, Baptists were banned, Stalin preferred traditional religions: Islam and Christianity, and at the beginning of the sixties Baptists were allowed, Adventists were allowed twenty years later, and with the "red nose" they were allowed all Satanists, astrals (they are dictated by everything at the astral level) Jehovah's Witnesses, and how many divorced the "gods and the Virgin" divorced. God forgive me for remembering all evil
    1. venaya
      venaya 19 October 2017 16: 58
      +1
      Quote: Monarchist
      .. remember how many centuries ago Orthodoxy was established in our country. ..

      This is an interesting topic, maybe you shouldn't talk about it, but just take a closer look at it from all sides. Why does no one want to remember that the Russian Orthodox Church arose only in 1943? But did there exist a certain Orthodox church in the Republic of Ingushetia, like Peter the Great forbade all non-Christian (non-Avramic persuasion) concessions. Or is it not so? So still: "how many centuries ago Orthodoxy was established in our country"is there any sober answer to this? I think that under the term" Orthodoxy "different people imagine anything, not bothering with the true deep meaning of this word. I think that the level of zombies of the bulk of people has long gone beyond all limits!
  9. Monarchist
    Monarchist 19 October 2017 16: 43
    +4
    Quote: Velizariy
    Quote: Molot1979
    Another dolboslav

    Here is their sea, even admins and those dolboslavs)))
    Do not sport with sick cultists! They will answer any your clever argument with rudeness and enchanting nonsense.
    And the author of this set of nonsense just again missed taking medication and the admin is publishing this too))

    You please, make sure that they took the medicine. The Lord will reward you for your Christian kindness
    1. Velizariy
      Velizariy 27 October 2017 09: 34
      0
      Quote: Monarchist
      they took medicine

      No! No! No kidding! It passes, is treated! I met and personally knew such a dolboslav, the Aryan to the core, very ancient and, most importantly, a terrible hater of the whole Orthodox ... Although a friend, I constantly tried to hurt and humiliate me by the fact that they, as they say, give myself to deceive and I believe in what no normal person will believe. True, he did not drink medicine, at least he did not tell. Once he fell ill ... and the medicine didn’t help him and he turned for help to his ancient hyperaic gods and their other Dolboslav practice, but ... he felt incomparably worse, clearly began to notice in his conversation that he had begun to “become inflamed in places” "psyche. There were skin and bones from him, gray-green skin, skin on his hands cracked to bleeding wounds. And then, as he says, he turned to Christ, who was hated before him, to the one whom he had blasphemed and everything connected with Him ... He went into the Temple in a cold and snowstorm and repented, simultaneously frightening with his appearance the tormented "Buchenwald", before that hated by fierce hatred, father ... Two and three months later he ceased to be that "Buchenwald man, a smile beamed on him.
      And what is important! He, as the apostle Paul from the persecutor, became a Christian, observes all fasts and teaches me not to "mow" from Wednesday and Friday. According to this, God is strong, I note, the Christian God, to change any dolbloslav.
      1. Alex1117
        Alex1117 28 October 2017 05: 04
        +1
        Representatives of each religion can tell such incredible stories of incredible numbers. A mullah can tell how one day a Christian emancipated into a mosque in a cold and a blizzard against him in a mosque ... And there is no more zealous Muslim than that former Christian. A Buddhist lama can tell the same thing about a Christian and a Muslim who, in a cold and blizzard, crawled on stones and mud for three days and nights in his mountain datsan in order to finally fall to the roots of truth and there are no more successful Buddhists now than they are . The same is Hare Krishnas, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and so on. By the way, I believe that the Rodnovers can also give a mass of examples about the arrogant Orthodox who came to them. Unless the Jews can tell anything like this - not that policy of principles.
        1. Velizariy
          Velizariy 30 October 2017 11: 55
          0
          Quote: Alex1117
          By the way, I believe that the Rodnovers can also give a mass of examples about the Orthodox believers who came to them.

          Of the completely succumbed))) Orthodox means not only going to church, but also knowledge and PERSONAL communion with God and such an Orthodox, I emphasize not just being baptized and going to church, but knowing his faith and knowing God will NEVER come to a mullah, much less to these hyperaic idiots member-worshipers.
          1. Alex1117
            Alex1117 1 November 2017 06: 21
            +1
            Yes, yes, you are right! There are some - "personally communicating." And among them there is someone whom, according to their assurances, God chose to transmit information about the methods of "saving the soul" to all mankind. Here they sometimes creep out in the area of ​​various metro stations. Again, there are those who, after "personal communication with God," refuse to receive a TIN, refuse to receive a blood transfusion, even to their critically ill children. And all with links to the "special information" obtained in the course of "personal communication" with God. Well, or referring to a neighbor who claims that he "personally communicated with God" and in the course of communication, God "forbade receiving a TIN" and asked all Orthodox to warn about this.
            1. Velizariy
              Velizariy 1 November 2017 08: 43
              0
              Quote: Alex1117
              crawl around various metro stations

              Stop making people and other grannies on benches climb out of the subway as sources of your knowledge. And the fact that there he poured about a blood transfusion and stuff - the Orthodox do not.
              1. Seal
                Seal 1 November 2017 10: 35
                +1
                Additive by TIN.
                From the site ORTHODOX.RU
                Section: SINODAL BOGOSLOVSKY COMMISSION ON THE PROBLEM OF INN
                "The Orthodox, accepting the TIN, becomes an apostate at the same time, and consciously stigmatized him as the Christ seller .. The path of the faithful after their shepherd Christ, through Golgotha ​​to the Kingdom of Heaven. The path of the infidels behind the false shepherds (wolves in sheep's clothing), lentil stew, silver pieces, earthly blessings of the prince of this world into fiery hell "[(Coding - a semblance of an apocalyptic press. Kiev, 1998, p. 59). (Opening address // Orthodoxy or death! Journalistic almanac. Issue 15. The penultimate choice. M. 2000, p. 4) http://www.sinor.ru/~oprichnik/st11.htm]

                The absence of a clearly expressed general church point of view leads to the fact that many people are now perplexed and even confused, believe in ridiculous rumors and the above-mentioned insanities. Some, succumbing to panic and under the influence of unreasonable confessors, quit their job, sell houses and apartments, and go into forests or mountains. This is the reality of our days. Ordinary laymen and monks were the victims of our disagreements. Archpastors, elders, famous priests make completely opposite judgments. In one famous monastery they don’t receive communion, and in another, no less famous monastery, they are excommunicated for refusing to enter the TIN.

                It is imperative for us to overcome the spirit of separation, mistrust and alienation, avoiding mutual condemnation and intolerance. Those who have different points of view need to come to terms with one another, get away from extremes and find a basis for developing a church-wide point of view, which the most famous elders, confessors, viceroys of stavropegic monasteries could agree with, and which could become the basis of a special message from the Holy Patriarch or the decision of the Holy Synod .

                It is even more necessary now to achieve from state power providing their Orthodox citizens with a reasonable and acceptable alternative to TIN and other types of computer control.


                Hegumen of the Transfiguration of Valaam
                stavropegic monastery
                Archimandrite Pankratius
              2. Alex1117
                Alex1117 1 November 2017 22: 03
                0
                And why ? Do you have them, Orthodox of the second (or third?) Grade? Yes, it is quite possible that a significant part of them, so to speak, are not in themselves. But it is precisely in Orthodoxy that they especially listen to holy fools. Fools, of course, are not drawn to saints in Orthodoxy. But in the category of "blessed" - these clicks are quite pulling. And bliss is pretty cool, isn't it? By the way, in fact, what category of Orthodox do you consider yourself to be - professing primary Orthodoxy or Nikonians?
                1. Velizariy
                  Velizariy 2 November 2017 08: 28
                  0
                  Quote: Alex1117
                  to those professing Orthodoxy or to the Nikonians

                  Learn the original topic, and study the difference and the causes of the split, you can learn something.
                  Quote: Alex1117
                  that a significant part of them, so to speak, are not in themselves

                  Are you talking about the Orthodox or about getting out of the subway?
                  1. Alex1117
                    Alex1117 3 November 2017 07: 37
                    +1
                    Judging by your rude answers, your tram "poking" - you yourself have clearly shown who you can call that. Are you "Orthodox" ours?
                  2. Alex1117
                    Alex1117 3 November 2017 08: 19
                    +1
                    By the way, why is it so municipal for you where the Orthodox gets out of, from the subway or from a Mercedes? Or is it for you the one from the metro a priori less Orthodox than the one from Mercedes? Apparently, we must assume that if the Bentley stops nearby, then the same one that just got out of the Mercedes will instantly lose some of its Orthodoxy? Well, and one that is just from the subway, you will probably go into the category of "pagans", so hi
                    But what about the "blessed beggars in spirit"? But the poor in spirit - this is how there are those whoopers who are a little (or decently) not in themselves. To you, if you call yourself "Orthodox" you need to listen first. Well, or in the second, after the patriarch. And you do not even recognize them for the Orthodox. How so ? However, those who choose their own claims nicknames, this often happens. Do not like those with claims nicknames, competitors. yes
                    1. Velizariy
                      Velizariy 3 November 2017 08: 49
                      0
                      Are you still on you? some ignoramus is a prolific enchanting delirium and the women’s fables are asking for respect?)))
                      Quote: Alex1117
                      But the poor in spirit - this is how they are

                      who does not boast and doesn’t think of himself that he is highly spiritual, even if he is on Bentley and the second after the Patriarch ... A beggar is eager to fill himself with the Spirit of God, he can be both on Bentley and on the Cossack or even a pedestrian.
                      And to think that the "poor in spirit" are poor in the subway or the retarded can only be a retarded ignoramus, it’s just incomprehensible to one how to be so stupid as to think so))))))))))))
                      1. Alex1117
                        Alex1117 3 November 2017 10: 20
                        0
                        About 30 years ago, a classic political officer would have turned out of you. And you would give out pearls of the type: "And you, (name) do not believe in the all-conquering ideas of scientific atheism and still require respect for yourself ??? !!!! Yes, I’m pissing you .... !!!!!!! .
  10. Operator
    Operator 19 October 2017 20: 08
    +1
    Author:
    - Scythians, Sarmatians and Saks were Iranian-speaking, Mongol-Tatars - Turkic-speaking, therefore, no legacy can be discussed;
    - in nature there was no "Scythian power" as such (state formation), instead of it there were tribal unions of Scythians, Sarmatians and Saks;
    - the Slavs are the heirs of the direct descendants of the Aryans, and not the Scythians (northern Semites J2 with a small admixture of Aryan R1a - the legacy of the nomadic Aryans who passed through them);
    - the Mongols have the Aryan R1a at the level of 1 percent, the Tatars at the level of 20 percent, while their haplotype is a hodgepodge

    1. polpot
      polpot 20 October 2017 00: 31
      +1
      Hitler in hell spins the Aryan Slavs for which he fought for something and ran
  11. Zlatogorka
    Zlatogorka 20 October 2017 05: 10
    0
    There was no ancient Russia and Kievan Rus as a state. Such ideas are the result of falsification of national history over the past 800 years.
    It was the ancient state of Slavia https://myi-slavyane.blogspot.ru/2016/11/Gosudars
    tvennoe-ustrojstvo-federalizm-narodovlastie-sovet
    y.html
    And Russia is the Vikings, a hired army in Slavia. https://myi-slavyane.blogspot.ru/2016/12/
    1. Operator
      Operator 20 October 2017 18: 59
      0
      In all annals the state of the Rurikovich is designated either as the Russian Land or as Russia.
      1. Zlatogorka
        Zlatogorka 20 October 2017 21: 46
        0
        The Slavs in the days of the Rurikovich did not call their lands Russian, did not call the Khazars. But the Rus or the Khazars immediately called the land Russian, if they collected tribute - a fee for serving as a mercenary army or for not robbing.
        The chroniclers fed themselves from the hands of the Russians (the tithe of the collected tribute, deducted by the Rus of the Byzantine church, whose faith was accepted at that time only by the Rus, and not the Slavs) and wrote, in accordance with the charter of their church, considered the whole world and world order, from the point of view of the Old Testament under this describing only the deeds of the princes and not mentioning the actual life of the Slavs in those days. Therefore, we do not know anything about Veche and the state of Slavia.
        But even in the same annals of Nestor it is said (until this moment, Nestor does not speak of Russia, but speaks only of Slavs):
        "In the year 6360 (852), indicator 15, when Michael began to reign, the Russian land began to be nicknamed. We learned about this because at the same time Russia came to Constantinople, as it is written in the Greek chronicle." Pichem wrote Nestor annals almost 250 years after 852 years (the years of Nestor's life 1056-1114). That is, the concepts that have been historically substituted and the point of view of Nestor is not Slavic-centric, but the point of view of the apostate and traitor, who joined religion that was alien to the Slavs in those days, an alien worldview and counting the time from the reign of the Byzantine emperor Michael (drunkard). The Russians called themselves Rus, the nickname given to them by the Finns and used by the Slavs. They declared themselves Rus in their campaigns. They could even call the Slavic lands Russian on the basis of receiving tribute from the Slavic lands.
        The chronicler looked at what was happening from the perspective of the Rus. It should be noted that only those sources that whitewashed the princes survived, therefore our people are deprived of their true history.
        1. Operator
          Operator 20 October 2017 22: 18
          0
          Our people are called Russians.
      2. Alex1117
        Alex1117 21 October 2017 12: 50
        +1
        The "chronicle" is essentially one. Moreover, it is unknown by whom and it is not known when it was written. Without a beginning and without an end, largely lost. The so-called "Chronicler Nestor" is a mythological figure. From that very “chronicle” there are various lists (copies). That's all.
  12. Alexander Voronkov
    Alexander Voronkov 25 October 2017 18: 19
    +1
    Izya - and in Ancient Rus Izya.
  13. Alex1117
    Alex1117 28 October 2017 04: 50
    +2
    Supplement for Belisarius on "nomadic states" .. Example. In the forests on the territory of partly present-day Canada, partly the United States, once lived nomadic Iroquois who possessed notables. The question is whether the Iroquois had a state. We have the same thing: Sami, Nenets, Evenki, Khanty, Mansi, Yakut, Chukchi, Koryak, Buryats, Tuvans ... they all owned land. But no one, including the “historical literature” you have taken as the standard of truth, believes that all of the above were states. While exactly the same hulk (which in the 19th century “historical literature” began to call “Mongols”), the state allegedly existed. The same with respect to various Kazakh zhuzes and the mass of other tribes.
  14. Seal
    Seal 31 October 2017 13: 19
    0
    Quote: Yura Yakovlev
    But how can one explain the desire of the Slavs to the east, if there was no need for exchange of goods.

    Intervening. Somewhere since the time of Ermak, we have been continuously going to the East. We got to the Pacific Ocean. Is it really just for the sake of the need for exchange of goods?
  15. Seal
    Seal 1 November 2017 10: 24
    +1
    Quote: Burbon
    there was ..... and do not lie .... cinema you can not help! ... either mate or just a guttural scream ....


    To your misfortune, Mr. Burbon and others who deny the cries of "For the Homeland, for Stalin" some information resources were worried about collecting evidence of the surviving war veterans.

    Eye of the Planet. 21-12-2012 11:51:XNUMX
    For the motherland! For Stalin! - what living witnesses say - war veterans.
    Fortunately, many more veterans are still alive. And, fortunately, there are people who want to know the truth and ask different questions to these veterans. They do interviews, post them on the Internet. Let’s see what live witnesses say - war veterans.
    1. Sysenko Alexander Stepanovich
    - As I understand from your story, in the battles for the height of 905 you had to rise to the attack. Tell me: how did you feel? Did they shout “For the Motherland!” For Stalin "?
    - I have had to get up to attack more than once. What was the feeling? Only one thing: ours takes. They thought: if it’s necessary, then it’s necessary. And about the screams "For the Motherland, For Stalin!" - this was as much as you want. All the time with these names went into battle.
    2. Dementiev Nikolay Ivanovich
    - What was your attitude to Stalin, the party?
    - We were convinced that we would win, while Stalin had a very good attitude. And when they went on the attack, we always shouted: "For Stalin! For the Motherland! Forward!" Near Odessa, we shouted: “Half-a-half! For the Motherland, for Stalin, go ahead!”
    3. Ivanov Alexey Petrovich
    “So this woman, when she heard such conversations, jumped out of the house and started shouting straight at the running infantrymen:“ Where are you running so and so! Who are you throwing wounded comrades at? ” And it was so unexpected that everyone stopped, and as if a current ran along the human chain. some kind of captain, well done, correctly orientated himself, shouted: "For the Motherland, for Stalin!", and everyone immediately turned around and went back to the heights. "
    4. Kinyaev Alexander Petrovich
    -A few questions about your short stay at the front. When you were attacking under the White Church, what were your feelings? “For the motherland, for Stalin” shouted?
    - With this exclamation, it all started. When after when we ate porridge, we were lined up, they gave us weapons and led us on the attack, someone shouted: “For the Motherland! For Stalin !" And how everyone ran forward after that! I had only one thought in my head: “If only not to fall behind, how not to fall behind.” Such was the rise because of this. And there was absolutely no fear. Nothing! Do you understand? Stalin was very fond of.
    5.Derevyankin Nikolay Andreevich
    -Did you shout “For Stalin!”?
    -Shouted
    . It turns out to be a tradition. Rather, in the tsarist army they also shouted. Only one word: there “For the Tsar!”, And here “For Stalin!” When, I somehow ... They showed ... I say: "Duck, we yelled the same thing." Only one word was changed. How is it ... "For faith ..." In general, the last word of the "king" we began to shout "For Stalin!" And more, of course, obscenities ...
    6. Baldin Alexander Fedorovich
    “Well, what were you fighting for?”
    - For Mother Russia, for the Motherland, for Stalin, forward. So on the tower it was written in white, white: "For the Motherland, for Stalin!"
    .......
    75. Mamutov Amza Amzaevich
    - How do you feel about Stalin, the party?
    - During the war, Stalin was a law for me, I shouted: “Forward! For the motherland! For Stalin !" I fled with these words in my time into battle. I do not blame Stalin for anything; I was a member of the party. But I can’t figure out why I risk my life on the fronts, and my relatives are being expelled from Crimea. My father was also a party man, although he was an ordinary collective farmer. But it was not Stalin’s business, others were ill-smokers.
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  17. myobius59
    myobius59 12 November 2017 00: 59
    0
    Maybe I’m not right, but what I have always been interested and amusing about is such stories about "the affairs of bygone days, the legends of old times distant."
    After all, scientists can’t agree on what happened 100-200 years ago. but accurate to the day, they can tell what and how it was 1000-2000 years ago.
    Who can explain this paradox? After all, according to those documents. reached us, all those events can be interpreted in the same way as the predictions of Nostradamus. and other prophets. Namely, a couple of kilometers in one direction and as many in the other.
    Who is writing these historical scripts?
    Recently I read that during the Christianization of Russia, for several centuries (it didn’t go away quickly), nearly 10 million pagan ancestors who did not want to be baptized died. Where did this figure come from? Of course. it’s not without blood. as it is written in the article, but taking into account that population, all the same it’s probably an exaggeration.
    And so it is about the other events of that era. Some regular assistant professor sits and composes a "story". to get a professor.
    1. Serg nik
      Serg nik 17 November 2017 13: 03
      +1
      According to archaeological excavations, the number of abandoned settlements in the first century after the adoption of Christianity amounted to 29% of the number investigated. Which significantly exceeds the indicator of "neighboring" periods. The method of "demographic loss" never gives the exact number of victims, but can be used for comparative analysis. The Petrine era - the population decline is also about 30%, the “reforms” of the 1990s also demonstrate a similar indicator. It seems to some a mere coincidence that in these historical eras in Russia they tried to introduce "foreign values."
  18. Siao
    Siao 15 November 2017 17: 31
    0
    The author writes:
    and then adopted the Byzantine version of Christianity.
    so after all, the separation of churches occurred as if only in 1054, and the "Byzantine" empire was then called a Roman one, like, where's the catch?
  19. The comment was deleted.
  20. taxamata
    taxamata 21 November 2017 17: 25
    0
    Yes, and they themselves destroyed, the staircase system is fatal.
    the author missed that after the death of Vsevolod (father)
    Vladimir Monomakh (son) did not succeed Kiev at all. waiting in line
    The staircase system worked for the first two generations.
    and then the princes divorced 4 dozen or more,
    and with each generation the number doubled.
    (Like princes in Saudi Arabia. Now there are already thousands, and dynasties are only a hundred years old)
    one upstairs died — move the rest to
    I’m sitting, for example, in Kozelsk and waiting for the table to be vacated in Smolensk,
    Why should I equip Kozelsk
    if I move in a couple of years to Smolensk or Chernihiv
    I don’t remember, but it seems after the monomakh, the inheritance system has become from father to son
    and the feud fragmentation at that time was almost the whole of Europe
  21. Seraphimamur
    Seraphimamur 15 March 2018 09: 40
    0
    Our Russians have strong millennial traditions, and we are still recklessly killing our blood brothers: today Donbass.