Military Review

Who needs the myth of the son of a murderer?

131
Everybody knows the picture “Ivan the Terrible and his son Ivan 16 in November 1581 of the year” from childhood, created in 1883-1885. the great Russian artist Ilya Repin. It depicts King John IV, in deep sorrow, bending over his son. The reason for the grief, according to the plot of the picture, is clear: the king, suddenly angry, suddenly fatally injured his son and heir with his own hands. History the murder of Ivan Ivanovich Ivan the Terrible so firmly entered the public consciousness that today almost no one doubts: the Russian tsar was really so bloodthirsty that he cruelly punished his own son, one can imagine how he cracked down on the population of Russia.


When work on the picture was completed, it was seen by the Chief Prosecutor of the Holy Synod, Konstantin Pobedonostsev, the main ideologist of the Russian Empire at the end of the 19th century. Pobedonostsev did not just not like the picture. The “court conservative” expressed his most decisive indignation, since he considered that the picture not only undermines the foundations of autocracy, but also contributes to the assertion of a historical myth that does not correspond to reality. Ivan the Terrible did not kill his son, Konstantin Pobedonostsev was convinced.



Ultimately, 1 April 1885, Repin's picture was banned from being shown in the Russian Empire. So for the first time censorship banned the picture - before literary works were censored. However, already 11 July 1885, the ban on the display of the picture was lifted. They say that the artist-battle artist Alexei Bogolyubov, who was close to the imperial court and had a certain influence on the authorities, applied for the work of Ilya Repin. After the censorship restrictions were lifted, the picture was able to be publicly available. Soon it became the main symbol of the myth of the Tsar, the sonic killer, which is still cultivated even in the school system of education.

What so outraged Pobedonostsev, and then the Emperor Alexander III himself in the picture? First of all, its historical unreliability. There is still no real evidence in favor of the fact that it was Ivan the Terrible who killed Prince Ivan. The cruel scene of sonicide depicted in the picture is not just the figment of the artistic imagination of Ilya Repin. As early as the 16th century, rumors about the murder of Ivan Ivanovich by his own father were widely spread in Europe precisely at the suggestion of European diplomats who worked at the Moscow court. They were interested in discrediting the Russian state by any means, including through the depiction of Tsar John the Terrible by the cruel murderer and psychopath, who raised his hand to his own son, the heir to the throne.

Who needs the myth of the son of a murderer?
- Tsarevich Ivan for a walk. Avilov M.I. 1913 year.

Tsarevich Ivan was the son of John IV and his wife Anastasia Romanova. He was born in 1554 year. Since his older brother Dmitry died in infancy in the 1553 year, even before the birth of Ivan, the latter was the eldest living son of John IV and, accordingly, the heir to the throne. Grown up Ivan accompanied Grozny in military campaigns, participated in government, in a word - gradually preparing for the role of the future king. However, historians agree that Ivan Ivanovich was not an independent political figure of Moscow Russia. In his short life, Ivan Ivanovich was married three times. Each of the marriages of the young prince could be called unsuccessful.

The first time Ivan Ivanovich married in the 1571 year, 17-years old, Evdokia Saburova - the daughter of the boyar Bogdan Yuryevich Saburov. However, already in 1572, the princess was tonsured a nun. Officially, she was tonsured because of her childlessness, however, it is more likely that Evdokia somehow angered Ivan the Terrible and he decided to get rid of her daughter-in-law, while Ivan Ivanovich himself loved Evdokia and was very unhappy with her father’s decision.

In the 1575 year, three years after Yevdokia's vows, Ivan Ivanovich married the second time - Theodosia Solova, daughter of the Ryazan boyar of the Horde origin, Mikhail Timofeevich Petrov. With Theodosia, the prince, she lived for almost four years - until 1579, but she was also a nun - also for childlessness. The latest version looks quite realistic, because in four years Theodosius never bore a heir to the prince.

Finally, in 1581, Ivan Ivanovich married Elena Sheremeteva, the daughter of the celebrated commander Ivan "The Little" Vasilyevich Sheremetev, who was killed in the siege of Revel in 1577. The girl she was beautiful, however, the king Sheremetev was unpleasant to Tsar John IV. Therefore, most likely, the prince made his own choice, and this immediately brought on a negative attitude from his father. It was Elena Sheremeteva who, according to the popular version, became the “cause” of the conflict between John IV and his son.

Jesuit Antonio Possevino in 1581 arrived in Moscow as a papal legate. An experienced 47-year-old diplomat, former secretary of the Jesuit general, Possevino was sent by the Vatican to Russia for several tasks. First, he had to persuade the Moscow Tsar to unite with the Catholic Church, and secondly, to offer Ivan the Terrible, in exchange for the union of the Orthodox and Catholic churches under the rule of the Pope, the Polish crown. It was Possevino who left a note in which he told his version of the death of Tsarevich Ivan Ivanovich, which happened just in 1581 year.

According to Possevino, Elena Sheremeteva was in her lower dress in her peace when the Grand Duke of Moscow Ivan the Terrible entered her. The monarch, who was notable for his hot temper, instantly became enraged at the appearance of the princess and severely beat her with a staff. The princess was pregnant, but the day after the beating, she had a miscarriage. At a time when Ivan the Terrible was beating the princess, his son Ivan Ivanovich rushed into the chambers and tried to stop the beatings. However, the angry king, as Possevino noted, hit his son with a staff in the temple, inflicting a mortal wound on him.

It was this version expressed by the papal legate that later formed the basis of the spreading myth about the murder of his son by Ivan the Terrible. Other Western travelers who visited Russia, for example, Heinrich Staden, who for some time was even a royal oprichnik, began to report on the death of the prince as a result of a blow by the king's baton. Whether a spy, or just a rogue, Heinrich Staden left completely Russophobic notes, which were later criticized by domestic historians as unreliable.

Meanwhile, besides the papal legate no one no longer testified not only about the death of the prince at the hands of his father, but also about the violent reasons for the death of the heir to the throne. Ivan the Terrible himself in a letter to N. R. Zakhar'in-Yuryev and A. Ya. Shelkanov, wrote that his son was seriously ill and therefore he could not come to Moscow. The Russian chronicles report the death of the prince, but nowhere does it say that he was killed or died from the consequences of his injury.

Another version paints Ivan the Terrible as a libertine who sexually harassed his daughter-in-law, and Ivan Ivanovich, outraged, entered into a conflict with his father and then the king struck him in the temple with a rod. But this version has absolutely no evidence.

However, many Russian historians subsequently took the Possevino story as a basis, although in some writings it was altered beyond recognition. For example, Nikolai Karamzin, without denying the murder of the prince by Ivan the Terrible himself, argued that Ivan Ivanovich was killed by his father during a political discussion, when he demanded that the king send an army to liberate Pskov. Then Ivan the Terrible was furious and hit the prince with a rod in the head. However, when the prince fell, the king came to the realization that he had done. He rushed to his son, cried, prayed to God for the salvation of the prince, but all was in vain. It was the version of Nikolay Karamzin that formed the basis of the artistic intention of the famous painting by Ilya Repin.

However, the Pskov Chronicle indicates that the conflict between the king and the prince because of the liberation of Pskov did take place, but in the year 1580 and was in no way connected with the death of Ivan Ivanovich. Grozny really hit his son with a rod, but did not cause him fatal injuries. Whatever it was, but on November 19, 1581, Ivan Ivanovich died at the age of 27 years in Alexandrov Sloboda (now it is the territory of the city of Alexandrov, Vladimir region). Historical sources indicate that Ivan Ivanovich died slowly, due to a severe illness that struck him, which remained uncertain.

In 1903, Russian historian Nikolai Petrovich Likhachev concluded that the prince’s illness lasted eleven days. At first she seemed easy and did not attach importance to her, but then the prince became worse. Invited healers could not save the heir to the throne, and 19 November, he died. For Ivan the Terrible, the death of his son, the heir to the throne, was a powerful blow and in many ways undermined the health of the king, who died two and a half years after the departure of Ivan Ivanovich. Ivan Ivanovich, and then his father Ivan the Terrible, was buried in the Cathedral of the Archangel.

In the 1963 year, almost 400 years after the death of Ivan Ivanovich and Ivan the Terrible, scientists organized an examination of the remains of the king and the prince. To this end, an opening of the tombs of Ivan the Terrible and Ivan Ivanovich was organized in the Archangel Cathedral in the Moscow Kremlin. The remains were given for medical forensic and medico-chemical expertise. Research data showed that in the remains of the prince, for an inexplicable reason, the mercury content was exceeded 32 times, the lead and arsenic contents were several times higher. This circumstance may indicate only one thing - the prince could have been poisoned. Then the reason for his illness and death within eleven days becomes clear.

Naturally, the scientists tried to establish the fact that Ivan Ivanovich wounds the head. However, the skull of the heir to the royal throne was in such a poor condition due to the collapse of the bone tissue that it was impossible to find out whether Ivan Ivanovich had any injuries or not. If it were not for this circumstance, then we could have forever received reliable evidence that it was not at all the quarrel with his father that became the real cause of the young prince's death.

Thus, we see that the myth of the sonish murder of Ivan the Terrible was deliberately inflated by Western sources as another proof of the wild customs allegedly reigning in Russia. Meanwhile, real historical sources show that even during the reign of the hot-tempered Ivan the Terrible, justice in Moscow Russia was much more humane and milder than in Western countries. No death sentence could be approved without the consent of the sovereign. And very often Ivan the Terrible pardoned criminals, including those who committed serious crimes and in theory should have been executed in any case.

In addition, Ivan the Terrible was very gentle even with respect to outspoken conspirators, for example, he endured Vladimir Staritsky for a very long time — his cousin who made all kinds of intrigues and intrigues in order to eliminate Ivan the Terrible. The plot of Vladimir Staritsky was opened in 1563, but the autocrat, who was able to simply destroy the conspirator, simply deprived him of the right to live in the Kremlin and removed him from the courtyard. In 1566, Ivan the Terrible forgave Vladimir Starytsky and brought him back to court. However, Vladimir Staritsky did not appreciate the mercy of John IV and continued his conspiratorial plans. In the end, the patience of Ivan the Terrible broke. In the 1569 year, after taking Ivan the Terrible, Staritsky felt bad and soon died. For six years Ivan the Terrible tolerated the conspirator in his circle and forgave him several times. Meanwhile, one can recall how “humane” were the European states of that time, where the Holy Inquisition raged, and kings and queens led a way of life, compared to which Ivan the Terrible was just a child.

It was during the reign of John IV that the Russian state began to turn truly into a powerful state, which included in its membership the fragments of the Golden Horde - the Astrakhan and Kazan Khanates, which led successful wars against their strong opponents. Naturally, this circumstance could not come to the liking of the rulers of the countries of Western Europe and, most importantly, the Vatican. The popes, claiming a leading role in the Christian world, could not accept the fact that the Orthodox state had acquired such power. Therefore, numerous undercover games were waged against Ivan the Terrible, and since the tsar could not be eliminated with the help of intrigues, it was decided to start an “information war” against him. Ivan the Terrible appears in the notes of Western diplomats and travelers as a crazy, aggressive, depraved despot, and the myth about the murder of his own son serves only as an illustration of this line of Western sources regarding the Russian state and its ruler.
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  1. Basil50
    Basil50 20 October 2017 06: 28 New
    10
    Repin painted his picture in full conviction of the artist’s right to fiction. That's just all * the rights to fiction * for some reason against the history of RUSSIA. This applies to the literature. Today films are already being shot and also with * the right to fiction * and also necessarily as these events * are seen * in the * west *.
    1. venaya
      venaya 20 October 2017 07: 04 New
      +9
      Quote: Vasily50
      only all * rights to fiction * for some reason against the history of RUSSIA. This applies to the literature. Today, films are already being shot and also with * the right to fiction *

      Every single day, even here, on the VO website, I find on countless posts of strange "people" realizing this very "right to fiction." Everyone is trying to write some "stories" that have nothing to do with the reality known today, on the basis of all these stories, so surprisingly "science" with the amazing name "History" is usually created afterwards - it seems really just a science about bikes. This "science" is subsequently taught to indiscriminate children as a compulsory subject. That is, in the school curriculum in advance there are objects that cause hatred of both the people themselves and the state created mainly by this very people. How to get out of this vicious circle? This is a question for everyone. Hence the classic saying: "What to do?" and how to deal with it. We won’t be allowed to live in peace, I hope that many have already understood this, now all that remains is to develop an action plan to combat this phenomenon. This is a clear war, and a war both to destroy the state, and to destroy the people (peoples) living in the state. It’s worth thinking about.
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 20 October 2017 07: 23 New
        +7
        Quote: venaya
        such an amazing "science" with the amazing name "History" - it seems really just the science of bikes. This "science" is subsequently taught to indiscriminate children as a compulsory subject.

        Vyacheslav, and imagine that this has been going on for hundreds of years ..... winked
        You understand this, I understand, but the majority does not want to think, but stupidly hawks what they are presented with request
        Soon, people will be sure that the Russians bombed Japan with atomic bombs. yes People are weaned from thinking, people are weaned from reading and analyzing, an electorate is made from people request Sadly with sad
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 20 October 2017 09: 23 New
          +2
          Quote: Rurikovich
          Soon, people will be sure that the Russians bombed Japan with atomic bombs.

          Every year in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, a funeral ceremony takes place on the day of the bombing. It is broadcast on all channels. Lessons are taught at schools ... A film was made (the cartoon is very popular in Japan and must be watched by schoolchildren!) Barefoot Gene and Barefoot Gene-2. And no one there says that they are Russians. They say that they are Americans. But ... that it was a necessary step. What can I argue about. But so they say, this is their opinion. The Japanese. So do not write about what you do not know.
          1. Nicholas C.
            Nicholas C. 20 October 2017 10: 49 New
            +8
            Shpakovsky,
            Repin finished the canvas for the 300th anniversary of the death of Ivan the Terrible. Oh how!
            Repin's hand dried up after the painting was completed. And friends feared for his mental health. But the artist’s friend - Vsevolod Garshin, who posed for the picture in the role of the murdered Ivan, went crazy. Garshina began to pursue the "glass ball", at the time of a fit of madness, he rushed down the stairs.

            Judas slandering Russia should know: God is not Eroshka — punishment is inevitable.
            1. kalibr
              kalibr 20 October 2017 15: 00 New
              +3
              And how many examples to the contrary? Some kind of selective God you have. One "glass ball", the other is OK.
          2. Rurikovich
            Rurikovich 20 October 2017 19: 20 New
            +3
            Quote: kalibr
            So do not write about what you do not know.

            Vyacheslav, there is no smoke without fire. Nobody argues about the mourning ceremony in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In this case, for my part, the fact of the Japanese memory of atomic bombing is not in doubt. But then you are well aware of the aggressive media, which reformat the brains of YOUTH - just spit. Therefore, the usual disagreements without emotions can already be interpreted in their own way ...
            vlasti.net/news/90301
          3. Alexander Greene
            Alexander Greene 20 October 2017 22: 57 New
            +4
            Quote: kalibr
            And no one there says that they are Russians. They say that they are Americans. But ... that it was a necessary step.

            In the 70s of the last century in Japan from the common population, almost no one spoke English, because of hatred of the United States for nuclear bombing, but a significant part of the population spoke Russian. Today they have almost all forgotten the Russian language, everyone speaks English and justifies this terrible tragedy. This is the first step to recognizing that the bombing is the work of the USSR.
            In the USA and Europe, for example, many already believe that the USSR attacked Germany.
      2. kalibr
        kalibr 20 October 2017 09: 24 New
        +1
        Pictures with the right to fiction were ALWAYS removed!
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 20 October 2017 09: 46 New
          +3
          Quote: kalibr
          Pictures with the right to fiction were ALWAYS removed!

          The difference between fiction is how this fiction will affect our future. Or our country will be great and mighty and we will all be proud of it. Or our country will turn into a rashka, we will always try to get off our knees and repent incessantly.
          It is practically impossible to find the truth in the distant past, but from the height of the past years it is possible to judge the results of a ruler. It is necessary to use these criteria when evaluating the past - to discuss the results, and not particular ones. Otherwise, standing in the pose of an underexposed ostrich with a magnifying glass looking at the grains of sand between the claws, you may not notice how our bare butt will be in the wrong hands ...
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 20 October 2017 14: 58 New
            +3
            Everything is true Boris, but the director’s talent and his right to creative freedom should be in such a way that the grains of sand are visible and the results are obvious. For example, the same film "Alexander Nevsky", which we have examined more than once here. Who argues that these are classics of battle cinema? None! The film is highly patriotic, right? So! But, why did the Alexander never once overshadow himself with the sign of the Cross for the whole film? This is not historical and it is striking. A revolution in the USSR would not suffer from two or three “crossings,” would it?
            1. Boris55
              Boris55 20 October 2017 15: 58 New
              +2
              Quote: kalibr
              The revolution in the USSR would not suffer from two or three “crossings”,

              Two or three fingers? In the film, Alexander Nevsky smashes the cross of the carriers and you propose that he baptize himself with this very cross? In my opinion it is not logical.
              1. kalibr
                kalibr 20 October 2017 22: 24 New
                0
                That is, Alexander, being an Orthodox prince, did not overshadow himself with a sign of the cross and did not pray before the battle for the gift of victory? Do you even understand what you wrote?
                1. notingem
                  notingem 20 October 2017 22: 55 New
                  +1
                  The movie is great and that's it
                  1. Yuri EVRAZ
                    Yuri EVRAZ 21 October 2017 19: 54 New
                    +2
                    Mikhail Nikolayevich Tikhomirov (May 19 (May 31), 1893, Moscow, Russian Empire - September 2, 1965, Moscow, USSR) - Soviet Slavic historian, source historian, specialist in the history and culture of Russia of the 23.10.1953th-2th centuries. Academician of the Academy of Sciences of the USSR (04.12.1946 [XNUMX], corresponding member from XNUMX).
                    ============
                    Best Specialist in Source Studies
                    ===================================
                    "In 1938, academician Tikhomirov accused the creators of the film" Alexander Nevsky "of insufficient patriotism: supposedly" miserable, bastard Rus looks everywhere from the script writers: all nations are stronger than her, all more cultured, and only a miracle saves her from German enslavement "
                2. Alexander Greene
                  Alexander Greene 20 October 2017 23: 19 New
                  +4
                  Quote: kalibr
                  That is, Alexander, being an Orthodox prince, did not overshadow himself with a sign of the cross and did not pray before the battle for the gift of victory? Do you even understand what you wrote?

                  Who in this case needs such a historical truth? Boris 55 is right that "In the film, Alexander Nevsky smashes the cross of the carriers and you propose that he baptize himself with this very cross?"
                  You yourself write that the author has the right to fiction. And here the authors of the film showed how Alexander Nevsky assumed all responsibility for the Motherland, and if he had been shown to those who pray or were baptized, this would have achieved not the historical truth, but humiliation of Alexander, this historical truth would demonstrate that Alexander Nevsky threw off all his responsibility and transferred it to God.
                3. Boris55
                  Boris55 21 October 2017 08: 21 New
                  +1
                  Quote: kalibr
                  Do you even understand what you wrote?

                  Orthodoxy is the rule of right, and the faithful are right of the faithful, in Russia they were long before Christianity.
                  In your opinion, it turns out that as soon as in 988, Vladimir adopted Christianity in Kiev, so that all over the whole territory of Russia at the same hour renounced the faith of their ancestors and began to be baptized? laughing Do you know that today, apart from the Russian Orthodox Church, the Russian Orthodox Church is completely legal?
                  More details: http://rpsc.ru/news/interview_ura-ru_2017/
                  1. kalibr
                    kalibr 21 October 2017 12: 39 New
                    0
                    I do not care what they praised there, and what is acting now. I repeat, it is unhistorical that Alexander never once overshadowed himself with a sign of the Cross for a film and did not turn to God. This could not be by definition. And it was necessary to show this necessarily. This is our HISTORY, which is, that he does not do it on the screen - THIS IS A POLICY that has nothing to do with history. The Crusaders prayed to their god, the prince to their own. "Our God" turned out to be stronger, that's all!
                    1. Ehanatone
                      Ehanatone 21 October 2017 18: 25 New
                      +1
                      Caliber
                      And where did you get the idea that Alexander was a believer? No ...
  2. Olgovich
    Olgovich 20 October 2017 06: 44 New
    +2
    the skull of the heir to the tsar’s throne was in such poor shape due to bone decay that it was not possible to find out whether Ivan Ivanovich had any injuries or not.
    Therefore, the question of the murder-non-killing of the Tsarevich will remain open forever ....
    The fact is that the king did not protect him or did not want to protect him from poisoning his only heir, if not more ...
    1. igordok
      igordok 20 October 2017 07: 09 New
      12
      In the body of Ivan IV, they also found a bunch of "chemical impurities" incompatible with life. Most likely, both Ivanes were given poisonous impurities in scanty lobes, so that their death would look like a natural one.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 20 October 2017 08: 15 New
        +1
        Quote: igordok
        In the body of Ivan IV, they also found a bunch of "chemical impurities" incompatible with life. Most likely, both Ivanes were given poisonous impurities in scanty lobes, so that their death would look like a natural

        Terrible, allegedly, received "medicine". And in those days a lot of what was recognized as poison interfered there. On purpose or not, no one knows .... Mother of Ivan the Terrible-Elena Glinskaya and his second wife, Anastasia Romanova (mercury), died of poisoning.
        Poisoning was also fashionable in the West: free or not, it’s also a mystery, for any death of the reigning person is always beneficial to someone .....
        1. Stirbjorn
          Stirbjorn 20 October 2017 09: 02 New
          +2
          Quote: Olgovich
          and his second wife, Anastasia Romanova (mercury).

          correct first wife
        2. Cat
          Cat 20 October 2017 22: 01 New
          +2
          The era of Catherine de Medici - however!
      2. Aposlya
        Aposlya 20 October 2017 10: 33 New
        +4
        Well, judging by what Western medicine was in those days, it is quite possible that the tsar and tsarevich were simply "healed." After all, the king was a physician, the Englishman ...
    2. venaya
      venaya 20 October 2017 07: 10 New
      +6
      Quote: Olgovich
      ... the king did not protect or did not want to protect him from poisoning his only heir, if not more ...

      In order to change the Rurikovich dynasty with at least some right of succession to the throne, the enemies needed to poison about 80 representatives of the Rurikovich family. Such information was previously published, so I think it makes no sense to blame the tsar himself, this is clearly not his initiative but the initiative of countless enemies of Russia-Russia itself, as an independent state from no one.
    3. andj61
      andj61 20 October 2017 09: 33 New
      +2
      Quote: Olgovich
      The fact is that the king did not protect him or did not want to protect him from poisoning his only heir, if not more ...

      Yes, in those conditions, he could not protect him from poisoning. The stories with the incomprehensible death of the people around Ivan the Terrible are not unique - for example, his marriages were accompanied by the death of both his wives and the poisoning of the brides. A full-fledged special service could have worked against this, but the time has not yet come for the special services for protecting families of the first persons of the state.
    4. Ehanatone
      Ehanatone 21 October 2017 18: 27 New
      -1
      Olgovich
      On whose mills do you pour water!? ...
  3. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 20 October 2017 07: 16 New
    +5
    This is how history is written winked So Ivan the Terrible became a murderer, so the Tatar-Mongol "yoke" appeared, so the same Ivan IV became "Terrible" (although not the fact that it was one person), so cities and countries miraculously appear in other places, not there, where were they really request and so readable, becomes "unreadable" (Etruscan)
    Always look for who benefits. hi
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 20 October 2017 09: 17 New
      +6
      Etruscan again became Russian. Well, how much can you?
      1. venaya
        venaya 20 October 2017 09: 53 New
        +5
        Quote: kalibr
        Etruscan again became Russian. Well, how much can you?

        And how much more can you frankly lie and not admit the obvious that this is still so, in fact, no matter how they call themselves (they did not call themselves Etruscans). What is the basic purpose of such permanent lies? It can be proved that the earlier so-called "Europe" was actually ancient Russia, about which too many facts have already been collected. And still, the enemies of Russia really do not want to acknowledge the painfully obvious fact of the occupation of many parts of Russia, already called other terms, from other foreign languages.
      2. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 20 October 2017 19: 25 New
        +2
        Quote: kalibr
        Etruscan again became Russian. Well, how much can you?

        No one says that they were Russians. The question is why everyone says that they are not readable, and the Pole Fadey Volansky in the XNUMXth century read these "unreadable" inscriptions using the Slavic alphabet. Or it does not fit into officialdom and you can answer "Well, as much as possible" ???? wink
    2. andj61
      andj61 20 October 2017 09: 40 New
      +5
      Quote: Rurikovich
      This is how history is written winked So Ivan the Terrible became a murderer, so the Tatar-Mongol "yoke" appeared, so the same Ivan IV became "Terrible" (although not the fact that it was one person), so cities and countries miraculously appear in other places, not there, where were they really request and so readable, becomes "unreadable" (Etruscan)
      Always look for who benefits. hi

      Grandfather Ivan IV and his complete namesake - Ivan Vasilyevich III, also called Grozny. And often they were confused until the nickname "Terrible" was finally assigned to the grandson. But the reign of Ivan IV is divided into several periods, significantly different from each other. Indeed, it seems that different people ruled. But Ivan IV is one of the most slandered rulers of Russia. And the murder of a son is just one lie in the mass.
      1. polpot
        polpot 20 October 2017 14: 04 New
        +3
        Well, to Stalin’s slander, he’s very far there Nikitushka has tried so hard that it’s very difficult to figure out the truth and become extinct, and you say Ivan the Terrible
      2. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 20 October 2017 19: 35 New
        0
        Quote: andj61
        Grandfather Ivan IV and his complete namesake - Ivan Vasilyevich III, also called Grozny. And often they were confused until the nickname "Terrible" was finally assigned to the grandson.

        Or maybe "confused" just recently started winked ?
        Quote: andj61
        But the reign of Ivan IV is divided into several periods, significantly different from each other.

        Some kind of temperamental he was with an unstable character ... repeat
        Quote: andj61
        Indeed, it seems that different people ruled.

        Or maybe REALLY it was ruled by different people ?? Such a formulation of the question is difficult to recognize, right?
        Quote: andj61
        But Ivan IV is one of the most slandered rulers of Russia.

        Although I agree. Although it was the official’s attempt to shove very diverse facts under one ruler, this ruler was too extraordinary. Either his moods at different periods of government change, then his character. no
        But the business is just to look at the problem from a different angle and try to accept completely logical and understandable explanations .... But no, no way request
  4. cedar
    cedar 20 October 2017 07: 26 New
    +7
    See at the root, dear. The Jesuits are essentially the MTR of the Vatican, the original enemy of Orthodox Russia and Russia, its kings and people. And slander, treachery and meanness are weapons of the Jesuit order, to which the main "witness" of the "Posevino" murder belonged ...
    1. saigon
      saigon 20 October 2017 16: 19 New
      +2
      But according to some sources, the concept of human rights was developed by the Jesuits!
      Such things, there is no black and white, all are half tones and all is dimly
  5. parusnik
    parusnik 20 October 2017 07: 34 New
    +9
    The image of the enemy in the person of Russia, the West was created long ago ...
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 20 October 2017 09: 16 New
      +4
      Like the image of the enemy in the face of the West ...
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 20 October 2017 11: 54 New
        +4
        Well, how did Ivan the Terrible and subsequently the Romanovs create this image ...? .. What books on this subject were released ..?
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 20 October 2017 15: 30 New
          +1
          Well, under Grozny, this was not necessary. But we made up for lost time after the 1917th.
          1. parusnik
            parusnik 20 October 2017 15: 51 New
            +6
            This means the book Nosova Dunno on the moon laughing Or what others .. Name at least one ... where the image of the enemy was created .. Shpanov doesn’t even have such works ... But you better know, you were engaged in propaganda ... wink
            1. kalibr
              kalibr 21 October 2017 13: 06 New
              0
              You are reading the Poisoned Feather cycle, why should Dunno know to drag? And yes - I really know better, I really did this for many years.
              1. parusnik
                parusnik 21 October 2017 14: 19 New
                +2
                I read and what? .. I made my conclusions after reading this cycle no more .. You, I don’t see my enemies in European nations, ordinary people are no less shit on our brains than us .. Only their brains are softer, they absorb faster .. and more than one century .. How do you pretend to the ultimate truth, who thinks differently is not with you .. When you were in Europe you weren’t surprised that they had green grass and the sky was blue, but you met Europeans who were surprised at this in Russia ...
          2. notingem
            notingem 20 October 2017 23: 32 New
            +1
            Have you visited what? Great movie Ivan the Terrible. Or again unreliable
      2. polpot
        polpot 20 October 2017 14: 06 New
        +3
        well, we are very far from the fantasy level of some bears in the streets of which
  6. parma
    parma 20 October 2017 08: 42 New
    +2
    The lack of information in the chronicles about the causes of Tsarevich’s death does not refute the fact that his father could kill him! The fact that he had been ill for a long time is also possibly a consequence of the head injury (after all, it is not indicated by what and how he was ill) ... The presence of toxins is possibly related to treatment (then treatment with what is now considered useless or poison was widespread everywhere, too, bloodletting was considered almost a panacea) .. So there are 2 ways: either leave the question open forever (by the way, the notes of the Vatican ambassador do not contradict the chronicles, and the lack of accurate data in other RUSSIAN sources can be attributed to the desire to hide the true reasons, power and politics are always dirty ) Or more and shout about the falsification of history, Europe's desire (and of course the Semites, as without them in any conspiracy theory) only to destroy the bulwark of civilization in the face of Russia.
    1. venaya
      venaya 20 October 2017 09: 04 New
      +4
      Quote: parma
      continue to shout about the falsification of history, the desire of Europe (and of course the Semites, how could without any conspiracy theory) to destroy the stronghold of the only civilization represented by Russia.

      What is your post for? As far as I understand you, just all these falsifications are on hand. See: What is the term “Europe” in your concept - have you looked at the map for a long time? Today, it seems like the then Rus-Muscovy all entered this territory under such a strange and little explainable name as "Europe". And why did you drag here some kind of "conspiracy theory" that has not yet been described. Again, the “Semites" were tied here - is this what else, rain or what? And the authorities and politics were not doused with anything - that this is yet another advertisement of the principle “anarchy is the mother of order”, that is, the lawlessness of the 90s already familiar to us in practice. By the way, why didn’t you like Russian civilization so much, as far as I’m trying to advertise you here, it most likely looks like an anti-Russian civilization.
    2. andj61
      andj61 20 October 2017 09: 45 New
      +1
      Quote: parma
      the notes of the ambassador of the Vatican do not contradict the annals, and the lack of accurate data in other RUSSIAN sources can be attributed to the desire to hide the true reasons, power and politics are always dirty

      In relation to later times - this is correct. But Ivan the Terrible never hid his own that he had anything to do with the murder of a person, atone for sin in the church, repented, noted this in his correspondence with the church hierarchs, etc. Silence in this case absolutely does not correspond to the psychotype of Grozny - he sincerely believed in God and considered it stupid to hide sins from the servants of God. hi
    3. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 20 October 2017 22: 31 New
      0
      Bravo, my unfamiliar but sober friend !!!
  7. kalibr
    kalibr 20 October 2017 09: 14 New
    +3
    "Soon she became the main symbol of the myth of the king - a son-killer, who is still cultivated even in the school system of education."
    It’s very bad that people in our country learn the history of the country from paintings, feature films, novels, and not from chronicles, and monographs. They don’t understand that art is ONE, and science is completely different! However, Pushkin noticed this when he wrote in Boris Godunov that she eats fables!
    1. polpot
      polpot 20 October 2017 14: 08 New
      0
      This drama of Pushkin is also a set of historical jokes
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 20 October 2017 15: 28 New
        0
        That is, a certain% of people do not eat fables? It's a lie?
  8. Stepan Kudinov
    Stepan Kudinov 20 October 2017 09: 25 New
    0
    The answer to the question is simple, like an egg - the Anglo-sexes had all this and the subsequent FAVORABLE !!!!!
  9. FenrirXnumx
    FenrirXnumx 20 October 2017 09: 28 New
    0
    Research data showed that in the Tsarevich’s remains for an inexplicable reason the mercury content was exceeded by 32 times, the lead and arsenic content were exceeded several times

    There, arsenic, lead, and mercury were found in all of Grozny, his mother, son, Queen Anastasia. Weakly believe that they were all poisoned by all. Most likely this was due to the fact that lead dishes were distributed, possibly water supply. Arsenic and mercury were all sorts of blush, grinding, medicine. It seems that this is widely known, why are they terrifying
    ..in the remains of the prince for inexplicable reasons, the mercury content is exceeded 32 times

    Everything is explainable.
  10. parma
    parma 20 October 2017 09: 39 New
    +1
    Quote: venaya
    Quote: parma
    continue to shout about the falsification of history, the desire of Europe (and of course the Semites, how could without any conspiracy theory) to destroy the stronghold of the only civilization represented by Russia.

    What is your post for? As far as I understand you, just all these falsifications are on hand. See: What is the term “Europe” in your concept - have you looked at the map for a long time? Today, it seems like the then Rus-Muscovy all entered this territory under such a strange and little explainable name as "Europe". And why did you drag here some kind of "conspiracy theory" that has not yet been described. Again, the “Semites" were tied here - is this what else, rain or what? And the authorities and politics were not doused with anything - that this is yet another advertisement of the principle “anarchy is the mother of order”, that is, the lawlessness of the 90s already familiar to us in practice. By the way, why didn’t you like Russian civilization so much, as far as I’m trying to advertise you here, it most likely looks like an anti-Russian civilization.

    I say that there are several theories! The generally accepted (it was written in the history textbook, which was approved by the Ministry of Education, and by the way Soviet at the time, too!) Says that it was Ivan IV who accidentally killed his son in a quarrel, I think that everyone else is demagogy .. That's what this post is for.
    About the conspiracy theory, the answer to the many comments above about how the terrible Antonio Posevino impudently lied in his letter about the cause of the Tsarevich’s death (well, how can he not lie, he does not risk anything, misleading the Pope! He went on his fictions to write, and not to observe the environment, to be so to speak the eyes and ears of the pontiff ...)
    Regarding power and politics, tell me at least one ruler in the history of mankind (which is known more than his name), who has not committed more than one sin! Before or after Grozny, were there no princes / kings / emperors killing their relatives for power or because of dissent?
    1. venaya
      venaya 20 October 2017 10: 07 New
      +4
      Quote: parma
      .. call me at least one ruler in the history of mankind .. who has not committed more than one sin!

      That is the question, that the greatest "sins" are attributed to the Russian rulers, the rulers of Russia, Russia, the Republic of Ingushetia, the USSR and even the Russian Federation. How painfully it all looks like a kind of outright Nazism, condemned by the Nuremberg Tribunal. Although in addition to the term "Nazism" it is possible to use other analogous terminology, it does not change the essence of the matter. And about teaching the subject "History" - you are not familiar with the textbooks ac. Pokrovsky, or today's textbooks created with the money of Soros. Do you really still live in a vacuum, is it really not clear that if so little foreign money is invested in textbooks, then you can find a grain of truth there? Everything is so clear and transparent here that I don’t want to talk about it anymore. By the way, even the very name of the subject, “History,” is surprising, is it really not clear that under such a name it’s simply pointless to search for anything truthful there. Think about it calmly and meaningfully.
      1. Boris55
        Boris55 20 October 2017 10: 29 New
        +4
        Quote: venaya
        ... even the very name of the subject is surprising - "History", is it really not clear that under such a name it’s simply pointless to look for anything even more truthful there ...

        History - from the Torah I.
        When investigating any coming, at least two witnesses are needed. This is due to some features of our brain - it cannot be focused on one thing for a long time and this is correct - otherwise we would not survive.
        The revelations of this or that saint are being drawn in to us, as though they had personally written them under the dictation of God himself. Nestor for many is true in the last resort, although his story of temporary years has three different interpretations ...
        In fairy tales, tales and epics much more truth than in all the works of scientists magnifying their masters.
  11. bober1982
    bober1982 20 October 2017 09: 47 New
    +3
    Repin is called the great Russian artist, but this great one has repeatedly provoked scandals because of his art.
    His famous painting "Barge Haulers on the Volga" was completely untrue, and caused a fair outrage, and the picture was sent to an exhibition in Vienna.
    The country rolled into the abyss, the picture was acquired by Grand Duke Vladimir Alexandrovich (uncle of the last Russian tsar)
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 20 October 2017 10: 35 New
      0
      Quote: bober1982
      His famous painting "Barge Haulers on the Volga" was completely untrue

      This is how to look at her. In my opinion it was even very consistent.
      About the painting "Barge Haulers on the Volga" and symbolism in it: http://www.artola.com.ua/burlaki-na-volge/
      1. bober1982
        bober1982 20 October 2017 10: 59 New
        +1
        I was not too lazy, I followed the link, as expected - one dregs was written ........ he writes "Barge Haulers on the Volga", which reflects the ideas of mobility and deep internal symbolism, ........ looking for impressive characters.
        In the same way, Repin wrote about the murder of Ivan by Ivan the Terrible, and there are characters, and deep symbolism.
        Quote: Boris55
        This is how to look at her.

        And here I agree, what impression the foreigners had about Russia, it is not difficult to guess.
        About burlak work, at the time of writing the picture, you can talk a lot, but do not want to be distracted from the topic, I repeat once again - Repin had a poor idea of ​​what it was.
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 20 October 2017 11: 10 New
          0
          Quote: bober1982
          About burlak work. .. Repin had a poor idea of ​​what it was.

          The picture is not at all about the barge haulers and their work, however, like the topic under discussion hi
          1. bober1982
            bober1982 20 October 2017 11: 41 New
            +1
            I agree, and my respect to you.
      2. kalibr
        kalibr 20 October 2017 15: 14 New
        +1
        My article was about this here. The picture showed an exceptional case, not the typical work of the barge haulers.
        1. bober1982
          bober1982 20 October 2017 18: 02 New
          0
          Quote: kalibr
          not the typical work of barge haulers.

          Thus, they dragged them aground, and even at the time of painting, burlak work was a rarity.
      3. notingem
        notingem 20 October 2017 23: 39 New
        0
        From the point of view of the owners is not reliable. But from the side of the barge haulers
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 21 October 2017 13: 02 New
          +2
          There is a 1927 Shubin book, Volga and Volga Shipping, and it seems to be on the Web. There, all the nuances of the work of the barge haulers are described in detail. Yes, it’s hard, in the fresh air it’s generally hard to work physically. But ... this is a special case in the picture! US statistics say their policeman takes out a gun to fire once every 17 years. But watch their movies, they only do that they are scorched by them. Private and general are concepts that must be shared!
          1. notingem
            notingem 21 October 2017 14: 26 New
            0
            I agree. Art and documentaries have become confused
    2. Ivan Tartugai
      Ivan Tartugai 20 October 2017 11: 55 New
      +1
      Quote: bober1982
      Repin is called great Russian artist

      In addition, Ilya Efimovich is an artist kindly treated by power. And if he proceeded to write the painting “Ivan the Terrible and his son Ivan on November 16, 1581”, then he surely thought of it as power, namely, as the Romanovs, more precisely Holstein-Gottorp perceive his works. Well, the Holstein-Gottorps were taken positively, since the picture discredits the Rurik dynasty, the picture represents Russian rulers inadequate psychopathscompared to which the kings of Holstein-Gottorp civilized Europeans, Germans.
      1. bober1982
        bober1982 20 October 2017 12: 21 New
        +1
        I don’t even know what to say. The country began to plunge into madness, including power, and Ilya Yefimovich should be given hands.
        1. Ivan Tartugai
          Ivan Tartugai 20 October 2017 17: 23 New
          +1
          Quote: bober1982
          deal I had to give Ilya Efimovich.

          But who will give hands to Yefimich.
          He felt very subtle conjuncture. I didn’t have a single conflict situation with the authorities, I always knew how to negotiate with the people I needed. It’s not without reason that Repin’s contemporary artist Binder in his diary wrote about Repin: “... this folding soul, can take on any form. ” A similar opinion about Ilya Efimovich was his student, AP Ostroumova-Lebedev.
          Probably Pobedonostsev was the only senior person with whom Repin had a conflict over the painting "Ivan the Terrible and his son Ivan on November 16, 1581," but Ilya Efimovich emerged victorious from it. Yes, and when writing the painting "Anniversary meeting of the State Council" recouped on it.
          So that Ilya Efimovich knew when and with whom to swing his arms, and when to hide them away.
  12. Ivan Tartugai
    Ivan Tartugai 20 October 2017 10: 00 New
    +4
    Quote from the article:
    However, the skull of the heir to the royal throne was in so poor condition due to the breakdown of bone tissue, it was not possible to find out whether Ivan Ivanovich had injuries or not.

    Here is this information about so poor condition of the skull Tsarevich Ivan Ivanovich appeared relatively recently, maybe 5-6 years ago. Since 1963, i.e. almost fifty years, the condition of the skull was satisfactory, at least about so poor condition Tsarevich’s skull was not written. The skull of Ivan the Terrible himself was generally suitable for research, and the famous MM Gerasimov created a sculptural portrait of the tsar.
    Tsarevich Ivan and Ivan the Terrible were buried almost simultaneously, and nearby, and their burials were kept in the same conditions.
    Looks and now there are very large forces that are making significant efforts to support and maintain the myth of the murder of Ivan the Terrible by his son Ivan.
  13. parma
    parma 20 October 2017 10: 00 New
    0
    Quote: andj61
    Quote: parma
    the notes of the ambassador of the Vatican do not contradict the annals, and the lack of accurate data in other RUSSIAN sources can be attributed to the desire to hide the true reasons, power and politics are always dirty

    In relation to later times - this is correct. But Ivan the Terrible never hid his own that he had anything to do with the murder of a person, atone for sin in the church, repented, noted this in his correspondence with the church hierarchs, etc. Silence in this case absolutely does not correspond to the psychotype of Grozny - he sincerely believed in God and considered it stupid to hide sins from the servants of God. hi

    Yes, but then the memoirs didn’t write much either .... Yes, and they couldn’t reach us .... I would agree that the ambassador is lying in his notes if at least they wrote in one source that he died from typhoid / cholera, but no matter what, not just dead! But as they say, criticize suggest ...
  14. 27091965
    27091965 20 October 2017 10: 15 New
    0
    and since the tsar could not be eliminated by intrigue, it was decided to launch an “information war” against him. Ivan the Terrible appears in the notes of Western diplomats and travelers as a crazy, aggressive, depraved despot,


    It’s impossible to call Ivan the Terrible Saints, but perhaps the boyars also had a hand in myths about his madness. His struggle with the “voivodship feeding” devastating entire regions, with the custom of “localism” in which he was appointed to important state and military posts by “nobility of the clan”, did not add to his popularity among the boyars. They (the boyars) were constantly at odds with each other and often went on treason for their own benefit. The methods of persuasion in these cases were useless. And so there were rumors about the madness of the king.
  15. Curious
    Curious 20 October 2017 10: 40 New
    +7
    An interesting picture emerges from the comments of some commentators.
    The first one. There was no Europe. It was an ancient Russia.
    The second one. Ancient enemies came from somewhere (from where - it is not yet clear, because according to the first point, Russia was almost everywhere) and drove Russia out of what is now called Europe.
    The third. These ancient enemies in Russia did what they wanted - changed the ruling dynasties, overthrew and placed rulers, destroyed entire layers of historical documents for hundreds (or even thousands) of years, and instead created new ones, rewrote the history of Russia as they wanted, stopped economic development
    Fourth. Ancient enemies continue their subversive activities, constantly improving their insidious methods.
    Fifth. Resistance to this vile activity is clearly insufficient, since the true history is known only to a narrow circle of dedicated Prometheus and the power of their torches is not enough to disperse the darkness of ignorance into which the ancient enemies plunged the people. But Prometheus does not give up. The fight goes on.
    1. venaya
      venaya 20 October 2017 11: 32 New
      +2
      Quote: Curious
      There was no Europe. It was ancient Russia.

      And why didn’t you like this quite logical statement? After all, it is based on numerous developments of today in various fields of science, as well as information still stored on the sources still not destroyed, and there are many more. By the way, where did this very term “Europe” come from, why is it so often promoted, moreover, financially well-off sources (the term “information” does not apply here). By the way, the use of this very term for the first time was recorded only in the XNUMXth century, if there is a friend infa, please provide. I think I don’t want to answer all these and other facts, which clearly says it speaks of your bias. This does not surprise me, considering all your previous posts on this subject. I would say: The truth is burning your eyes. I do not find any other explanation. Can you explain your behavior, please listen with pleasure.
      1. Curious
        Curious 20 October 2017 11: 58 New
        +2
        Dear venaya! Discussions with you and various explanations are not included in my plans, since the role of Donin does not appeal to me.
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 20 October 2017 15: 10 New
          +1
          And for some reason I didn’t write about the power of the “ancient enemies”. Limited to Europe ... And it would be necessary to explain about the deaf-eared and oakiness of our ancestors. Not people, but solid people, right ... And then what the hell with these in general to fight and something to change them. They would have burned everything, no one would have farted. And it’s time for all ancient Prometheus to drown the enemies in need!
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 20 October 2017 23: 09 New
      +3
      1. Exactly, Middle-earth.
      2. What does it mean - “from somewhere” ?! The stump is clear - from the West! Elves are damned!
      3. They kept honest the people of the Orthodox Orcs in a black body!
      4. And do not say, books are written, films are shot
      5. The Sarumans have not yet transferred to Holy Russia!
      1. notingem
        notingem 20 October 2017 23: 50 New
        +2
        Was Caligula Tambovsky?
    3. notingem
      notingem 20 October 2017 23: 45 New
      +1
      Pancake. The main thing is that while the seas have not yet dug
      1. Curious
        Curious 21 October 2017 00: 12 New
        +3
        Considering that the cunning ancient Ukrainians staked out the warm Black Sea, the White version remains.
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 21 October 2017 12: 57 New
          0
          The Slavs are SUPERETONOS, but you belittle ... take higher - the whole SILENT OCEAN! Remember the song, an echo of hoary antiquity - "And in the Pacific Ocean, you have finished your campaign!"
          1. Curious
            Curious 21 October 2017 13: 16 New
            +1
            No, in my opinion, it’s better not to tie a song to this murky affair. She still has her own life. The basis of the "March of the Siberian Regiment" by Gilyarovsky, written in 1915. Then it was still a misfortune about superethnos that did not suffer so much.
            Then, on its basis was the “March of the Drozdov Regiment,” the Makhnovist anthem, and only after that was the “March of the Far Eastern partisans.”
            French, German, Spanish, Serbian, Greek, Chinese and Ukrainian, Armenian versions of the song are written.
            So I suggest the White Sea so far.
            1. notingem
              notingem 21 October 2017 14: 55 New
              +2
              I agree. Let the White Sea be. It's even cooler. You see, we are writing a true and reliable world history. Let them try to refute
  16. parma
    parma 20 October 2017 10: 52 New
    +4
    Quote: Curious
    An interesting picture emerges from the comments of some commentators.
    The first one. There was no Europe. It was an ancient Russia.
    The second one. Ancient enemies came from somewhere (from where - it is not yet clear, because according to the first point, Russia was almost everywhere) and drove Russia out of what is now called Europe.
    The third. These ancient enemies in Russia did what they wanted - changed the ruling dynasties, overthrew and placed rulers, destroyed entire layers of historical documents for hundreds (or even thousands) of years, and instead created new ones, rewrote the history of Russia as they wanted, stopped economic development
    Fourth. Ancient enemies continue their subversive activities, constantly improving their insidious methods.
    Fifth. Resistance to this vile activity is clearly insufficient, since the true history is known only to a narrow circle of dedicated Prometheus and the power of their torches is not enough to disperse the darkness of ignorance into which the ancient enemies plunged the people. But Prometheus does not give up. The fight goes on.

    Here I am about the same wink History is a fait accompli, there are things that we know and don’t know ... And either we are forced to agree with what we know, or the demagogy about EXPRESSION begins .. After all, we need to build a theory on facts, and not consider facts that correspond to the developed theory .. .
    1. Gardamir
      Gardamir 20 October 2017 11: 26 New
      +4
      History is a fait accompli ... REMEMBER .... build a theory on facts, rather than consider facts corresponding to a developed theory ...

      So the facts say that the holy polar explorer Kolchak, fought with the surging hordes of the Bolsheviks. But then he did not succeed. A little later, the Americans with the help of St. George cavaliers destroyed the dictators of Hitler, Stalin and Saddam Hussein. Although some historians are inclined that there was only one person, Stalin Hussein. In order to destroy these dictators, Yugoslavia had to be bombed. only then did America's faithful ally Boris Yeltsin replace dictatorship with blessed democracy.
      Isn’t it in this vein that the facts are now shuffling us?
    2. venaya
      venaya 20 October 2017 12: 11 New
      +2
      Quote: parma
      History is a fait accompli there are things which we know and about which we do not know.

      So write about those facts that are fairly reliably known. There is nothing superfluous to invent here. Thank you at least for the fact that you acknowledge the facts about which so far do not know or know an insufficient number of people. Then you never need to exclude the financial factor, it plays a role here, and the role is not small, I would even say decisive. Hence the corresponding conclusions.
  17. parma
    parma 20 October 2017 11: 39 New
    +2
    Quote: venaya
    Quote: parma
    .. call me at least one ruler in the history of mankind .. who has not committed more than one sin!

    That is the question, that the greatest "sins" are attributed to the Russian rulers, the rulers of Russia, Russia, the Republic of Ingushetia, the USSR and even the Russian Federation. How painfully it all looks like a kind of outright Nazism, condemned by the Nuremberg Tribunal. Although in addition to the term "Nazism" it is possible to use other analogous terminology, it does not change the essence of the matter. And about teaching the subject "History" - you are not familiar with the textbooks ac. Pokrovsky, or today's textbooks created with the money of Soros. Do you really still live in a vacuum, is it really not clear that if so little foreign money is invested in textbooks, then you can find a grain of truth there? Everything is so clear and transparent here that I don’t want to talk about it anymore. By the way, even the very name of the subject, “History,” is surprising, is it really not clear that under such a name it’s simply pointless to search for anything truthful there. Think about it calmly and meaningfully.

    Um ... Only Russia means the largest? well ... I won’t talk about characters from Germany or Japan of the 20th century, it’s corny ... Let’s never heard about Vlad 3 (nicknamed Tepesh or Dracul)? ... There was such a prince in the Balkans ... So they say about him that he was hundreds of times worse than Grozny ... But no, he is from the Balkans, a Slav ... You will now change your point of view from Russia, RI, the USSR and the Russian Federation to all Slavs, they say only us, they consider the Slavs to be bad ... Maybe the capture of Jerusalem by the crusaders during the 1st crusade? No, it doesn’t, there were no kings in the campaign, there was a Prince of England, the son of William, but he never became a king, so the massacre in the city does not fit, we are looking for the rulers of higher order, and the counts and harrows are not account, they can be killers ... We don’t take Arab rulers either, they are the ancestors of the broads from ISIS (Forbidden in the Russian Federation), they have it by nature ... Hmm, maybe the Byzantines who overthrew their relatives and blinded them? But no, it’s the descendants of the Romans, and even those art and gods are terrible by Christian standards ... Can they take the generals of Alexander the Great (sometimes called great) and the dynasties of diadochs founded by them on the fragments of his creation? No, too ... Far away ... There are few facts and they can be manipulated 20 times ... Well, you convinced me .. This is a worldwide conspiracy ...
    PS: Do not take this message as an insult, it’s funny for you that I agree with the generally accepted story, and it’s funny for me how you invent your own (you invent it) ...
    1. venaya
      venaya 20 October 2017 12: 16 New
      +2
      Quote: parma
      It’s funny to you that I agree with the generally accepted story,

      Apparently, I myself am not included in the number of your particular community, so I’ll ask you not to insult everyone absolutely. Believe and know - completely different things and mix and mix them in no way. Try to understand this difference yourself.
  18. parma
    parma 20 October 2017 13: 11 New
    +2
    Quote: venaya
    Quote: parma
    It’s funny to you that I agree with the generally accepted story,

    Apparently, I myself am not included in the number of your particular community, so I’ll ask you not to insult everyone absolutely. Believe and know - completely different things and mix and mix them in no way. Try to understand this difference yourself.

    As I understand it personally, you know how everything was (well, and it will probably be?) In fact to the smallest detail ... Apparently they personally treated both the tsarevich and the tsar himself ... And apparently just lead, mercury and arsenic ...
    Well, since my point of view contradicts yours, but I don’t have a desire to arrange virtual battles for true faith here, I propose to stop the pointless discussion and increase the number of unnecessary comments ....
    I will continue to vegetate in unreasonable ignorance like a sheep (according to your point of view), and you will continue to believe that neither medieval Europe nor the Roman Empire ever existed, there was only one, boundless Russia, destroyed and scolded by the Anglo-Martian-Saxons from another dimension, rewriting history (according to my point of view) ... Just don’t say that the ancient sea was not dug by the hands of the ancient Rus-ss, but the ancient Rus, otherwise you will never achieve the truth ....
    1. Luga
      Luga 20 October 2017 14: 16 New
      0
      Quote: parma
      Well, since my point of view contradicts yours, but I don’t have a desire to arrange virtual battles for true faith here, I propose to stop the pointless discussion and increase the number of unnecessary comments ....

      Dear parma, I assure you, the discussion was not meaningless, if only because sensible people see from its materials that they are not alone. Perhaps what you wrote will be the last straw for someone and finally turn (or return) him to the path of logic and common sense from the path of some unscientific obscurantism, along which your opponents of today are trying to lead us all away. Please accept my sincere thanks and support.
      The more comments like yours, the greater the chance, sanity will triumph over ignorance and stupidity. hi
  19. kalibr
    kalibr 20 October 2017 15: 05 New
    +1
    Quote: venaya
    already too many facts. And still, the enemies of Russia really do not want to admit the painfully obvious fact of the occupation of many parts of Russia, already called other terms, from other, foreign languages.

    You know, but 90% of Russians on ... that we were once perhaps great and powerful, more than the Sun above the clouds. And me too ... It is important for me that now we are sitting with the most natural wealth ... and that we have an average pension of 14 thousand wooden. and in Germany - 1000 euros for men, and 500 for women. This is important. And the past ... but there was no past at all. I do not remember!!! But you never know what they say and write. The whole world is a complex of my and your sensations. Brad delirium and all! We will rest in the Lord and ... there will be no peace!
    1. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene 20 October 2017 23: 49 New
      +3
      Quote: kalibr
      And the past ... but there was no past at all. I do not remember!!! But you never know what they say and write. The whole world is a complex of my and your sensations. Brad delirium and all!

      When the former materialists started talking, yes - they are now idealists.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 21 October 2017 12: 54 New
        0
        Materialism is good, of course. Why are pensions small?
        1. Alexander Greene
          Alexander Greene 21 October 2017 13: 35 New
          +1
          Quote: kalibr
          Why are pensions small?

          Why do idealists need a pension?
          How do you write? - "The whole world is a complex of my and your sensations. Brad of the brain and all!". So pensions are just sensations or even nonsense.
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 21 October 2017 22: 22 New
            0
            That's it, and the delirium of my brain wants them to be larger. And why bother him? Let him rave on. Such nonsense suits me. More - not less! But to answer the question with a question is a bad manner. However, you do not expect anything else from losers.
            1. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene 21 October 2017 23: 59 New
              0
              Quote: kalibr
              But to answer the question with a question is a bad manner.

              And how else to answer stupid questions? What are you? Little? Do not know why such pensions?
              1. kalibr
                kalibr 22 October 2017 16: 00 New
                0
                I would like to hear from a smart!
  20. kalibr
    kalibr 20 October 2017 15: 07 New
    0
    Quote: venaya
    Quote: parma
    History is a fait accompli there are things which we know and about which we do not know.

    So write about those facts that are fairly reliably known. There is nothing superfluous to invent here. Thank you at least for the fact that you acknowledge the facts about which so far do not know or know an insufficient number of people. Then you never need to exclude the financial factor, it plays a role here, and the role is not small, I would even say decisive. Hence the corresponding conclusions.

    You already wrote about the suitcase with pounds, which I received in England from the Mi-6. It remains to report this to the Penza FSB in order to nip, so to speak ...
  21. kalibr
    kalibr 20 October 2017 15: 17 New
    0
    Quote: venaya
    today's textbooks created with Soros money.

    What today's textbook of which author and in what subject was created with the money of Soros? Only specifically! And which ones are used at school today?
  22. kalibr
    kalibr 20 October 2017 15: 25 New
    +3
    Quote: Ivan Tartugay
    Looks and now there are very large forces that are making significant efforts to support and maintain the myth of the murder of Ivan the Terrible by his son Ivan.

    Huge forces. It is very important that it was 500 back. Without this, rockets will not fly and there will be no money. But it’s strange, to all rich people whom I knew and I know, this ... doesn’t care. One barefoot with foam at the mouth tears the gate - we were great, but we were deceived. Rejoice that you were ... at least some consolation for imbeciles.
    1. Curious
      Curious 20 October 2017 16: 49 New
      +2
      "But it’s strange, to all rich people whom I knew and I know, this ... doesn’t give a damn.".
      About the rich you know - there is another reason. They have neither the time nor the strength. It just seems that being rich is a fun and exciting process of buying yachts, airplanes and football clubs, interspersed with fun picnics and hunting games in the redeemed protected forests. Where there!
      Being rich is hard, everyday work, exhausting all the strength.
      To begin with, "All major modern states have been acquired in the most dishonest way." Therefore, there is a constant fear of being taken away one way or another. Any change in the political climate could lead to the fact that the owner of factories, newspapers, steamboats and Tyumen oil fields tomorrow already sews slippers in a strict-security colony and learns that “chervonets” is not only money, but also a unit of time. even fleeing to the almighty Anglo-Saxons, the rich cannot feel safe, as experience shows. And the closer to eternity, the more gnawing thoughts about the impossibility of taking with you everything acquired by overwork.
      What reasoning is there about past greatness. For higher matters one must be free from all this. There Diogenes lived in a barrel - so what a philosopher he was.
      1. Ivan Tartugai
        Ivan Tartugai 20 October 2017 17: 54 New
        +1
        Quote: Curious
        there is a constant fear of being taken away one way or another.

        Yes, understandably, factories, newspapers, steamboats and Tyumen oil fields, although stolen, but wealthy people, got used to them so quickly, as if they had all earned their labor by the sweat of their faces. And here, once all was taken away, either power, or their own thieves, who yesterday were just friends. Yes, and even spoiled the face, and even generally with “mournful” faces, the legs of yesterday’s rich man are carried forward.
      2. kalibr
        kalibr 21 October 2017 12: 46 New
        0
        How they work, I saw ...
    2. Ivan Tartugai
      Ivan Tartugai 20 October 2017 17: 42 New
      +2
      Quote: kalibr
      But it’s strange, to all rich people whom I knew and I know, this ... doesn’t care.

      All the rich people you know and know You have been deceived and deceived.
      They just pretended for you and pretend that they "don't care ... about it."
      Or do you think that “one barefoot with foam at the mouth breaks the gates” and orders Lungin a libel movie about Ivan the Terrible?
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 21 October 2017 12: 49 New
        0
        Quote: Ivan Tartugay
        All rich people whom you knew and know, were deceived and deceived.

        Why, one question? What is the benefit? They are therefore rich because they know the value of money, and they know how to count it. And do not do stupid things. Why would they lie in vain and without money? For the love of lies? This is ridiculous ... On the contrary, they know that I, like the doctor, need to tell the truth in everything. Then there will be more grandmas!
        1. Ivan Tartugai
          Ivan Tartugai 21 October 2017 14: 37 New
          +1
          Quote: kalibr
          Why do they lying in vain and without money?

          If the rich, or rather, stealing their fortunes, do not lie, cheat, then they will not have money.
          As they stop lying and cheating, the next day their stolen state will begin to decline and after a short period of time, they will become like everyone else, i.e. make money for living, on his daily bread, in the sweat of his face and exactly only his own and not someone else's.
          So thieves lie not in vain, but for money.
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 21 October 2017 22: 17 New
            0
            Oh Lord, another patient on his head.
    3. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene 20 October 2017 23: 53 New
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      Huge forces. It is very important that it was 500 back. Without this, rockets will not fly and there will be no money. But it’s strange, to all rich people whom I knew and I know, this ... doesn’t care.

      Well, yes, only everyone is tinkering in the past and looking for their noble roots.
  23. kalibr
    kalibr 20 October 2017 15: 26 New
    +1
    Quote: Luga
    sane people see from her materials - they are not alone.

    But alas, there are a lot of imbitsilov too!
  24. kalibr
    kalibr 20 October 2017 15: 32 New
    +2
    Quote: venaya
    It can be proved that the earlier so-called "Europe" was actually ancient Russia, about which too many facts have already been collected.

    What for? Why would anyone prove it? The main thing is who pays to whom and for what and who lives like that! They are lying? Yes, and let it be! But they live well. We are not the time, but for some reason in the ... hole. Why's that?
  25. Yuri Guliy
    Yuri Guliy 20 October 2017 15: 33 New
    +2
    Official history has always been a dependent employee of customers of convenient history, so on October 20, the Presidium of the Higher Attestation Commission retained the title of Doctor of Historical Sciences for the Minister of Culture Medinsky, despite the recommendation of the Expert Council of the Higher Attestation Commission on History to deprive Medinsky of a Doctor of Science degree.
    1. ICT
      ICT 20 October 2017 21: 27 New
      +1
      Quote: Yuri Guliy
      The official story has always been a dependent employee of convenient history customers

      well, they don’t seem to remember
  26. Bersaglieri
    Bersaglieri 20 October 2017 21: 30 New
    0
    "... the skull of the heir to the royal throne was in such poor shape due to decay of bone tissue, ...." is another confirmation of poisoning by arsenic compounds and / or salts of heavy metals. Usually, the skulls and main bones of the skeleton last for a very long time.
  27. avaks111
    avaks111 21 October 2017 06: 35 New
    0
    The painting “Tsarevich for a walk” shows well that a river flowed at the site of the present Red Square or there was a moat with water ... The Kremlin was then surrounded on all sides by water!
    1. Bersaglieri
      Bersaglieri 21 October 2017 20: 56 New
      +1
      Hmm, don’t you know that it was so? Then they buried the ditch (Alexander Garden there now) and the Neglinka river was hidden in pipes (now Neglinnaya Street). It was in the second half of the 19th century.
  28. kalibr
    kalibr 21 October 2017 12: 42 New
    0
    Quote: Alexander Green
    And here the authors of the film showed how Alexander Nevsky assumed all responsibility for the Motherland, and if he had been shown to those praying or baptized, this would have achieved not the historical truth, but humiliation of Alexander, because this historical truth would demonstrate that Alexander Nevsky threw off all his responsibility and transferred it to God.

    Only a patient can write this on his head!
    1. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene 21 October 2017 13: 37 New
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      Only a patient can write this on his head!

      The idealists do not understand this.
  29. kalibr
    kalibr 21 October 2017 12: 45 New
    0
    Quote: Alexander Green
    only everyone picks

    Who's everyone? Fragrant grandmothers in my archive in Penza? They know that they were not standing next to the nobles, they just wondered where they were from. Regularly curse with those from whom the archive can not breathe ... And no one is looking for the nobility. People are interested in truth without embellishment, from old yellow documents that no one ever cheated on to please parties and governments.
    1. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene 21 October 2017 13: 43 New
      +2
      Quote: kalibr
      People are interested in truth without embellishment, from old yellow documents that no one ever cheated on to please parties and governments.

      You will say too. The current nouveau riche people, as soon as they steal a lot of money, immediately want something for the soul to show their significance, they begin: some go to power, others look for noble roots, others buy dissertations, others buy nobility
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 21 October 2017 22: 13 New
        0
        I have not met the nouveau riche in our archive. And they did not meet those hired. He specifically asked. Because I would understand these old and not only old women, if they worked for someone for money. And they work for themselves. They are interested in what ... the Novomudilov Church was christened their great-great-grandmother-peasant.
        1. Alexander Greene
          Alexander Greene 22 October 2017 00: 10 New
          +2
          Quote: kalibr
          I have not met the nouveau riche in our archive. And they did not meet those hired. He specifically asked.

          And what can be found in your Penza archive? Only old newspapers that you addicted to comment.
  30. kalibr
    kalibr 21 October 2017 13: 13 New
    0
    Quote: Alexander Green
    almost no one spoke the ordinary population in English, because of hatred of the United States for nuclear bombing, but a significant part of the population spoke Russian.

    Why are you so raving, scary? Where is it from? The Japanese language is difficult to learn. There are VERY many letters and sounds in it that are not in Japanese! In Japanese, there are no of the following Russian sounds: consonants - v, f, l, f, h, c, w, w; vowels - e, s. And what for, and where did a SIGNIFICANT PART of the population learn Russian? Not before that they were !!! No need to lie like that!
    But English was borrowed very actively. By 1950, many working English terms had entered Japanese. There is my book about Japanese advertising and it is written in detail about this and what words were borrowed. Not Russian, English.
    1. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene 21 October 2017 14: 13 New
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      Why are you so raving, scary? Where is it from? The Japanese language is difficult to learn.


      Well, why are you so immediately and "rave." You have not seen much and do not know much.
      Firstly, in the 70s. the former soldiers of the Kwantung Army were still alive, who were in our captivity and worked here in Siberia sometime before the beginning of the 50s. And there were about a million of them.
      Secondly, the sailors of the Far Eastern, Kamchatka and Primorsky shipping companies of the country regularly went to all seaports of Japan, and all the merchants spoke with them in Russian.
      Thirdly, in Japan in all major cities in the 70s. the Japan-USSR Friendship Societies worked, which promoted and taught the Russian language to everyone.
      In 1974, I was lucky enough to be a guest of a branch of such a society in Kobe, I still remember their chairman, Grandma Hayashi-san, and keep the badge that she gave me.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 21 October 2017 22: 07 New
        0
        And Japan was from 45 to 50 under the occupation of the US Army, and then there were a bunch of bases where the Japanese worked and the entire Pacific fleet of the USA stood and camped there, and Japanese whores served their sailors. And there, all the military equipment of the US Army was repaired in Korea. And the Japanese learned English to work for the Yankees. So one thing is worth the other, right? And from whom did they buy technology? We have? They bought wood and ore from us. You buy a book and see how many words in advertising borrowed from the Americans, and how many with us? Our language is difficult for them. Hard! English is easier. Fewer sounds they cannot make. And whose language is more profitable to learn? Poor and sick or healthy and rich? And all sorts of idiotic communist grandmothers, they are everywhere. Both here and in Japan. My daughter met one such in Cyprus ...
        1. Alexander Greene
          Alexander Greene 22 October 2017 00: 07 New
          +2
          Quote: kalibr
          You buy a book and see how many words in advertising borrowed from the Americans, and how many with us? Our language is difficult for them. Hard! English is easier.

          It’s difficult, it’s easy, I visited Japan from 1972 to 1977 regularly 1-2 times a year, and which ordinary people I didn’t try to speak English with, no one understood or didn’t want to speak, and almost everyone answered in Russian . Talk to the old Far Eastern sailors, they will confirm my words.
          Moreover, were there really more whores in Japan than the soldiers of the Kwantung Army?
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 22 October 2017 08: 27 New
            0
            Well, in 72-77 I ​​could not be not only in Japan, but even in Egypt - tourists from the USSR to “such countries” (Japan was not on the list at all!) Were allowed in only after 25 years! But I understood what you mean. Knowledge of language by prisoners at the household level. It’s enough to know 20 words. By this criterion, I know Japanese, Polish, Czech, and even French. But only this is not knowledge of the language. A level of 200 words is generally considered sufficient for everyday communication, but this does not mean that a person "knows the language." We have different evaluation criteria in you. And I don’t know about whores, you know better, I wasn’t there. At that time I was taught how to make the builders of communism from peasant children.
            But now everyone knows English. My co-author lived in Japan, she now has her own language center in Penza and she is very knowledgeable about what and how. The prisoners died, and that’s all ... It's funny that in Japan you should not scold Hollywood cinema, just do not. For them, this is an example of art, and the one who scolds sucks. It is clear that this concerns the opinion of the lower classes. But so many university students think!
            1. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene 22 October 2017 20: 28 New
              +1
              Quote: kalibr
              A level of 200 words is generally considered sufficient for everyday communication, but this does not mean that a person "knows the language."

              So, the vast majority of Japanese people at that time did not have a level of knowledge of English even in 200 words. Everywhere, including in Tokyo, to find out how to get where you need it, it was impossible to learn in English, but in Russian everything was very decently explained.
        2. Jääkorppi
          Jääkorppi 23 November 2017 08: 56 New
          0
          What did you mean? When did the Americans withdraw their bases from Japan?
  31. Jääkorppi
    Jääkorppi 23 November 2017 08: 55 New
    0
    Ivan the Terrible, like any patriot and defender of the state integrity of Russia, provokes the burning hatred of our "geopolitical partners"!