Military Review

In the "Leaders of Russia" without blat ...

48
Recently, the first deputy head of the presidential administration, Sergei Kiriyenko, announced the start of a large-scale project called “Leaders of Russia”. In essence, this is a competition held by the presidential administration. The All-Russian Competition, which ultimately (as planned by the organizers) will allow saturating the personnel reserve with promising specialists who can end up in the chair of municipal, regional and federal leaders, heads of large business projects. As Sergey Kiriyenko himself noted, it turns out to be “not due to cronyism,” but solely on the basis of achievements in his own workplace.


Sergey Kiriyenko quotes Press Service of the RANEPA (Russian Academy of National Economy and Public Administration):
We understand that all project participants, starting with participants in the regions, of course, fall into a certain pool of personnel reserve. We presume that even a person who did not make it to the Russian finals, but got to the district finals, these are already promising and talented people, motivated. Such people will get more attention at the regional level. From the winners, we will select the second stream of the Higher School of Public Administration (VSHGU) training program at the RANEPA, from the first stream of which quite a large number of people were elected president for appointments including to senior regional posts.

At the same time, it is noted that neither for the participants of the competition nor for its winners there is no strict coercion to continue their activities precisely as an official of one or another level.

In the "Leaders of Russia" without blat ...


Sergey Kiriyenko, who himself turned out to be the youngest prime minister in his time stories in modern Russia, he noted that, in fact, a “vertical elevator was opened with strong state support, where“ everything depends on the person himself ”.
This vertical elevator, as the deputy chairman of the presidential administration calls him, is in question.

The main selection is carried out on the basis of the age of the candidate for the “leaders” and his experience. Thus, an applicant for the right to call himself a representative of “leaders of Russia” should be a Russian citizen who is not older than 50 years with a management experience of at least 5 years. If the leader of Russia wants to see himself as an applicant under the age of 35 years, then the criteria for management activities are reduced to a time period - from 2 years.

What exactly is meant in this situation by management activity is not entirely clear. After all, you can manage a large enterprise, and you can own your mother-in-law, decorated by someone, for example, as an accountant in an LLC, in the staffing table of which is a 2-3 person.

On the other hand, if a person is already managing a large enterprise, then, one must assume, he has already been seen “at the top”, and therefore it is hardly essential for him to participate in some kind of competition that recognizes his merits on paper.

Here I would like to hope that the variant of management activity during registration in the competition will nevertheless be taken into account scrupulously - without formalism. By the way, we also need to talk about formalism, but a little lower. So far, about the contest "Leaders of Russia".

The official competition website it is reported that when applying before November 6 by a person who is eligible for age and management criteria, you can end up with an educational grant worth 1 million rubles, mentoring from well-known business executives and government officials, as well as enter the development program of personnel management reserve.

Among the non-governmental mentors listed on the site: director Fyodor Bondarchuk, director general of the First Channel Konstantin Ernst, general director of the All-Russian State Television and Radio Broadcasting Company Oleg Dobrodeev, general director of the Magnit retail chain Sergei Galitsky. A sort of "Star Factory" ... The producer, as such, though not yet enough.

Although why "not enough"? Among the producers of the project is quite possible to include political and economic mentors. In particular, this is Assistant to the President of Russia Andrei Belousov, Governor of the Kaliningrad Region Anton Alikhanov, Governor of the Tula Region Alexei Dumin, Chairman of the Board of Directors of Gazprom Viktor Zubkov, Chairman of the Center for Strategic Research Alexey Kudrin. Even the Minister of Defense Sergey Shoigu and the Minister of Foreign Affairs Sergey Lavrov were pleased with this list.

By and large, the competition is ambitious, the list of mentors is diverse, and therefore, in the end, something may well grow together. Already more than 40 thousands of Russian citizens have applied, feeling in themselves the leadership skills and established qualities. The contest, by the way, is free.

However, to the question of formalism. It is not a secret to anyone that informing about the achievements of a single person in practically any field of activity (be it a business or a public sector, including the structures of medicine, education, law enforcement agencies) is often associated with incredible amounts of paperwork. And often, in practice, it turns out that the more successful is not the person who’s success is connected with real affairs, but the one who has filled out the required papers more and more with the “achievements” of those who report. And if there are achievements not on paper, but in fact, the controlling bodies cannot check for a variety of reasons, and they do not always want to. There is a piece of paper certified by this and that, which means that everything is great - the list is recognized and hemmed - catch the response paper in the form of a certificate, category, etc. Not enough to the right level - take part in an additional (yes even remote, and even from the questionable structure of the competition), fill in another five or two pieces of paper, and now you are already a qualified specialist - five minutes later the leader of something there. Is there a job for which there is simply no time to fill out papers? - well ... then excuse me ... without clerical skills and management skills as such - another time. Fill in the tablet, put points on your successful activity, then come in ...

Now a few words about "without cronyism." It is possible, of course, to give examples of when a person, as they say, “from among the people” really reaches certain heights in leading spheres. But these, frankly, are isolated cases for our country, which is frankly sad. Besides, Sergei Kiriyenko could hardly have risked his successful career if it were not for the high status of his father - Ph.D., professor, head of the department of political science at Gorky University Vladilen Israel. Would you have become a famous director Fedor Bondarchuk without your great father? Who knows, who knows ... Some were helped by the names of their parents, others - the names and statuses of the parents of the spouses, the third - acquaintances in universities, etc.

Those who have no professors, folk artists or millionaires among their relatives and close friends who have earned their living by honest and unbearable work, according to a realistic formula for success, in our country (and not only in our) to climb the career ladder rather than fellow citizens who have it. One can argue with this, citing examples of exceptions, but the fact of the matter is that exceptions only confirm the rules. This, of course, does not mean at all that if your father is a minister or a scientist, you cannot build your own career. But in most cases, a career is built more successfully in such people. By definition...

In general, it is interesting to follow the competition, at least in order to find out who will end up on the list of “Leaders of Russia”. I would like to hope that all of them will be people worthy and able to benefit millions of other citizens.
Author:
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  1. Same lech
    Same lech 16 October 2017 07: 06
    +3
    In general, it’s interesting to follow the competition, if only to find out who will end up on the list of “Leaders of Russia”


    This is where you need to start ... otherwise it will turn out as always ... baa familiar faces ...
    and even KIRIENKO himself has a tarnished reputation after the famous default of 1998 after which the wallets and savings of our citizens have considerably lost weight.
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 16 October 2017 07: 39
      +6
      "Russian leaders" sounds like that ... abusive ... they don’t inspire something, like "stars" on TV ... their mother ...
      1. AUL
        AUL 16 October 2017 16: 12
        +2
        (HSE) RANEPA, from the first stream of which a fairly large number of people were elected by the president for appointments, including to leading regional posts.
        But I wonder how much it costs to get into this first stream?
      2. forester
        forester 17 October 2017 10: 14
        +2
        In general, the winners of the competition will be trained in a more sophisticated embezzlement than the current embezzlers and in more veiled wrecking - only kudrin in the mentors is worth
      3. Antianglosax
        Antianglosax 26 October 2017 08: 57
        +1
        Not a bad undertaking. Looks quite peppered.
    2. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 16 October 2017 07: 48
      +8
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      and KIRIENKO himself has a tarnished reputation

      However, his wet underwear does not interfere with jumping from one high post to another. And I think the reason for the rise of Kiriyenko is not in the profession of the pope, but in his surname. hi
      1. antivirus
        antivirus 16 October 2017 09: 00
        +4
        Would become a famous director Fyodor Bondarchuk without his great father? Who knows who knows..

        Balabanov with "Brother 1 and 2" became more famous and will remember longer than S Bondarchuk.
        LIVE AND REMEMBER
      2. ID90
        ID90 16 October 2017 12: 56
        +1
        Quote: Ingvar 72
        Quote: The same LYOKHA
        and KIRIENKO himself has a tarnished reputation

        However, his wet underwear does not interfere with jumping from one high post to another. And I think the reason for the rise of Kiriyenko is not in the profession of the pope, but in his surname. hi

        Professor Israel.
        are you hinting at him?
    3. aybolyt678
      aybolyt678 16 October 2017 09: 18
      +5
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      and even KIRIENKO himself has a tarnished reputation after the famous default of 1998 after which the wallets and savings of our citizens have considerably lost weight.

      but in the shops appeared legs Russian production. Sergey Kiriyenko at that time was put up as a whipping boy, the main initiator of this default was Yevgeny Primakov. By the way, default was necessary.
    4. BecmepH
      BecmepH 16 October 2017 09: 21
      +6
      and even KIRIENKO himself has a tarnished reputation after the famous default of 1998 after which the wallets and savings of our citizens have considerably lost weight.
      And take Kudrin, Gref, Nabiullina, Ernst ... But there are most of them! What will these effective liberoids teach?
      1. AA17
        AA17 16 October 2017 11: 45
        +7
        Dear, BecmepH. The competition "Leaders of Russia" should be seen as an attempt by the managing elite to renew its "blood". Apparently, the conclusion was made at the highest level - not all children of our successful top managers have management talents like themselves. More and more their wives are seen. Well, so that young people who fall from the side into the yoke of power acquire the skills and knowledge inherent in our elite, they will be “instructed by the true managers” who are listed by you as effective managers. It should be added here: Yaroslav Kuzminov, Vladimir Mau, Vladimir Potanin, Anton Siluanov, Sergey Sobyanin, Igor Shuvalov, Maxim Oreshkin, Andrey Fursenko, Victor Khristenko, etc. These people have extensive experience in developing our economy in a liberal direction. They will be able to bring up a worthy shift and pass on to their pupils their best liberal qualities. (Not enough Chubais and Dvorkovich in the role of mentors. These are very respected and worthy people.)
        1. BecmepH
          BecmepH 16 October 2017 13: 37
          +1
          Well, I’m talking about the same thing!
        2. dauria
          dauria 16 October 2017 15: 49
          +3
          They will be able to bring up a worthy shift and pass on to their pupils their best liberal qualities


          Yes, do not care about the "quality" and "professionalism." Personal (akin to servile) devotion is the only criterion for the arrangement in this system. These managers are no exception. Previously, they even dragged their own “krovinushka” along the mandatory route - a specialized university, a shift master, early. site, deputy beginning. workshop, beginning of the workshop, etc. Although he was "thieves", he received the idea of ​​production and did not confuse the grinding machine with a turning laughing
  2. aszzz888
    aszzz888 16 October 2017 07: 10
    +5
    ... watched on TV S. Kiriyenko on this project ... watched and listened, listened and did not believe ... everything was too smooth and good in his speech ... request
    1. Same lech
      Same lech 16 October 2017 07: 12
      +4
      looked and listened, listened and did not believe ... everything was too smooth and good in his speech ...


      smile SHO ... what again deceive the electorate ... they are politicians ...
      they say one thing ...
      think different ...
      doing the third ...
      1. aszzz888
        aszzz888 16 October 2017 07: 14
        +3
        The same LECHA Today, 07:12, smile SHO ... what again will deceive the electorate.smile SHO ...

        ... and again, and again ... wink
  3. Uncle lee
    Uncle lee 16 October 2017 07: 18
    +7
    Well, of course, Zubkov and Kudrin, Ernst and Galitsky will teach and show!
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 16 October 2017 08: 06
      +9
      Quote: Uncle Lee
      Well, of course, Zubkov and Kudrin, Ernst and Galitsky will teach and show!

      The casket just opens - the stupid heirs of thieves 90's need smart managers. As they say - nothing personal ..
      1. Uncle lee
        Uncle lee 16 October 2017 08: 12
        +6
        Version entitled to be!
  4. Sergey-svs
    Sergey-svs 16 October 2017 07: 20
    +8
    So, the applicant for the right to call himself a representative of the “leaders of Russia” should be a Russian citizen no older than 50 years with a minimum of 5 years of management experience.

    And after 50, that everything - life is over? is it time to die, or can only work as a watchman or janitor? negative And if this is no longer a full-fledged person, but a half-idiot, then start paying pension from 50! And explain, then what ...., in our government and in the Dumka they are sitting, to whom it’s not only fifty, but far beyond seventy! sad Or the fact that they stole and looted in the 90s makes them "superhuman," and everyone else is just dirt on their soles! am
    1. raw174
      raw174 16 October 2017 08: 17
      +5
      Quote: Sergey-svs
      And after 50, that everything - life is over? is it time to die, or can only work as a watchman or janitor?

      No, it’s just after 50 to START to learn late, and by the age of 50 a person is already defined in life, he has reached his height, lives for his pleasure and works too, and if not, if he worked all his life without achieving anything, then how did he let power? For me, then you need to lower the bar to forty ... I always try on myself and my loved ones, so my father was conditionally sentenced in the 90s, he had to leave work, but he was not lost, he was engaged in beekeeping, as it turned out, like case, now it contains an apiary and sells honey, i.e. to adulthood I found myself, I think so with most. And those who are from the current managers, and they are over 50, so they will not leave their settled and equipped place.
      PS there are many letters, I wrote, but I think they understood my idea.
  5. The comment was deleted.
  6. Gormenghast
    Gormenghast 16 October 2017 08: 12
    +2
    Any initiative from kinder surprise looks suspicious.
    1. aybolyt678
      aybolyt678 16 October 2017 09: 21
      +3
      Quote: Gormengast
      Any initiative from kinder surprise looks suspicious.

      who did not understand the meaning of default 98 does not understand anything in the economy
  7. tasha
    tasha 16 October 2017 08: 21
    +6
    Good start. It is high time.
    Regarding the objections of “all familiar faces ...” I can only answer - What is stopping all familiar faces from taking important posts now? And why then selection?

    I filed an application. Wait for me at the head of your regions :)
    Another question - will they give a jacket and a Mauser? wink
    1. Mestny
      Mestny 16 October 2017 13: 16
      +1
      Mauser is irrelevant now.
      They’ll give an iPhone.
  8. Olfred
    Olfred 16 October 2017 08: 24
    +7
    who is extreme ?! I am behind you! wassat
    “Vertical elevator with strong state support
    yeah, and with horizontal capabilities ... One gets the feeling that somewhere I've already seen something like this! I remembered - the forum "Seliger - ?? gg" was once, naked propaganda for young people about the benefits of their country’s work, talented kids, athletes and other colors of the nation. Here along the way the feed places are already occupied, in spite of what is said: “no cronyism”, but in our country it has never been otherwise ... No, well, they will put you in charge of the caretakers - the manager! hi
    1. raw174
      raw174 16 October 2017 14: 03
      +3
      Quote: OlfRed
      forum "Seliger - ?? gg" was once

      I was too. In the "Patriotic shift", mainly Military patriotic clubs, etc. Yes, propaganda, then this is the state. an event, it would be strange to gather young people and harass their country ... Personally, I learned something from there, because talked with interesting people, shook hands with the Hero of the Russian Federation, Veteran of the joint venture "Alpha", a participant in the operation in Beslan, this, for me personally, is a reason for pride.
      1. Olfred
        Olfred 16 October 2017 17: 37
        +3
        I was back in 2008 (art parade), then Putin himself arrived, though they all dispersed idly staggering and I personally saw him from 200 meters laughing . . . And so the idea is very good - famous personalities (artists, economists, etc.) come to share their experience. Unless the elite get there, I was just lucky. But you can’t go far on naked propaganda, as practice shows - things are needed (good)! hi
        1. raw174
          raw174 17 October 2017 07: 05
          +3
          Quote: OlfRed
          Putin himself then arrived, though all the idly staggering dispersed and personally I saw him from 200 meters

          He also came to us, I was at a meeting, sat 15 meters away)))
          Quote: OlfRed
          Unless the elite get there, I was just lucky.

          Me too, I helped the guys in the patriotic club work with children (went on hikes, set up camps, etc.)
          Quote: OlfRed
          But on bare propaganda you still can’t get far

          Well, yes, I agree, we need systematic work. And with the same military-patriotic upbringing, it does not go systematically, like arrhythmia, then we all rush to work, then it fades ...
  9. aybolyt678
    aybolyt678 16 October 2017 09: 27
    +1
    Generally the right initiative. Nowadays it is extremely difficult to find the right frames. Basically, IBDeshniki who do not know how to delve into the intricacies of the assigned business. The intelligentsia, which knows how to work, educate others, enriching them, has disappeared from the surrounding life, as a class, as an obligatory layer of society.
  10. andrewkor
    andrewkor 16 October 2017 09: 40
    +3
    "Fresh tradition, but hard to believe!" Classic for all time.
  11. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 16 October 2017 09: 58
    +2
    and even KIRIENKO himself has a tarnished reputation after the famous default of 1998

    I completely agree. Therefore, he was surprised to see how he, with "Komsomol" enthusiasm, told that now it would be possible to break into leaders without family ties, cronyism in the bureaucracy, etc. The initiative is certainly good, if only it did not work out according to Chernomyrdin.
  12. Galleon
    Galleon 16 October 2017 10: 41
    +8
    Looking at today's Russia, I often and with longing recalled the brilliant Stalinist move to recruit post-war diplomatic personnel, when the Soviet Union needed bright charismatic diplomats capable of fulfilling the interests of the USSR in the changing Western world. Stalin ordered the recruitment of diplomats ... from engineers of successful evacuated factories. People who were able to inspire and mobilize workers for the hard work under the open sky in the field, to live in dugouts - were capable of much, if not all. From this cohort came Dobrynin (ambassador to the USA), and Vinogradov (ambassador to France under C. de Gaulle), and others.
    And here’s Putin’s appeal. Surprisingly open and bold.
    Success to the participants! Let them work for us and for our benefit.
  13. Snail N9
    Snail N9 16 October 2017 10: 49
    +5
    Lord, what nonsense. "Leaders of Russia" in the "competition". In the USSR, a person became a leader automatically when he coped with his duties and could do even more. People automatically moved up because "attention"! the country was constantly evolving — new enterprises and infrastructure were being built, and there was always room to put one’s hands and head — there were a lot of empty seats both below and above, and now the country is not developing very much, it’s rather slowly stagnating — places for putting hands and heads all smaller and smaller, and in order to break through to the top it is necessary to push others elbows, which clearly develops intriguing and other not the best qualities. Therefore, now the “leader” is not the one who works with his head — a creative person who gives all his strength and knowledge to the cause, but rather a skilled intriguer who knows how to feel “conjuncture” and who can protect his “warm” place ...
    1. raw174
      raw174 16 October 2017 14: 10
      +5
      Quote: Snail N9
      In the USSR, a person became a leader automatically,

      Yes, everything was fine and chocolate there, everything was the best, everything was the best, but for some reason it collapsed ... Oh yes, two or three people destroyed the best system in the world (this is how the collapse of the USSR is always explained). And the shitty capitalist model, as it rotted and rots, only they live better now and then ...
  14. ivagulin
    ivagulin 16 October 2017 11: 06
    +2
    Yes, damn it on achievements will look well. In our state institution, the skimmer became the boss only because his dad was the boss, and in order to achieve this, I had to go around half the country, turn gray, and then after the institute I immediately shift the deputy head of the paper, and then oops and in the ladies, don’t tell my slippers
    1. Galleon
      Galleon 16 October 2017 11: 48
      +3
      In order not to talk about your slippers in vain, you should familiarize yourself with the requirements for candidates for participation in the competition. In these requirements, in particular, reference is also made to work experience in managerial positions. VO site is watched by a lot of experienced and competent people. I think we will all be happy if one of us through this competition receives new prospects and participation in the “sovereign affair”.
      Your hands haven’t reached your government office yet, there would be time to plug large holes.
      1. ivagulin
        ivagulin 16 October 2017 11: 57
        +1
        respected just consists of small institutions (the entire structure of the state should be built), a few large people will not be drawn from the general paralysis of power and development of the country, which is now unfortunately observed
        1. Galleon
          Galleon 16 October 2017 12: 06
          +2
          I know about this program only from the media. The media talked about the replacement of governor posts. Finding sovereign people in such posts is a piece of work. Caring for small institutions is an important matter, of course, but a competent leader in his place will take care of small institutions: whom he will take away, whom he will force to work, whom he will support, like that of your boy with no experience.
          I don’t know if the authorities have paralysis, but honestly, I don’t know. Law enforcement officers work, public utilities work as they can, transport works. Oh, we would have to find candidates for the government: the Prime Minister, the Ministry of Finance, the Central Bank, the Ministry of Economy! ..
          1. ivagulin
            ivagulin 16 October 2017 12: 19
            +1
            Moscow region - public transport, public service — all the proceeds earned are sent to Moscow, as a result, I constantly watch the broken buses on the highway, but I don’t even want to talk about the public service
          2. Krabik
            Krabik 20 October 2017 15: 33
            0
            This is how the shield looks in our entrance and this is Moscow:


            But here we have a voltage in the network:


            So for communal services I would not rush%)
  15. Winged 38
    Winged 38 16 October 2017 11: 18
    +1
    Quote: rotmistr60
    and even KIRIENKO himself has a tarnished reputation after the famous default of 1998

    I completely agree. Therefore, he was surprised to see how he, with "Komsomol" enthusiasm, told that now it would be possible to break into leaders without family ties, cronyism in the bureaucracy, etc. The initiative is certainly good, if only it did not work out according to Chernomyrdin.

    What are you attached to Kiriyenko? You can judge a person by his deeds. Where has he worked for the past 10 years? What is now with this organization and what place does it occupy in the world? And actually, how much time then, in 98, he headed the government?
    IMHO.
  16. Sotskiy
    Sotskiy 16 October 2017 11: 55
    +2
    Another extension of the engine life of the spent “engine” of the capitalist system by replacing individual “spare parts”?
    The “engine” of a fundamentally new modification needs to be installed (the system must be changed), and not the life of the “heap of scrap metal” not prolonged.
    The efficiency of the liberal economy in my opinion has clearly proved this.
  17. SCHWERIN
    SCHWERIN 16 October 2017 12: 33
    +2
    This song is from the age of 91. What already was not: both incubators and calls for youth to go up from G. Pavlovsky - the chief p. Technologist of the country. The result - the children and wives of cones occupied the entire field.
    No economy - no social. elevators, there is an economy - there are elevators.
  18. Alex_59
    Alex_59 16 October 2017 12: 37
    +3
    So, the applicant for the right to call himself a representative of the “leaders of Russia” must be a Russian citizen no older than 50 years with a management experience of at least 5 years. If the applicant wants to see himself as the leader of Russia under the age of 35 years, then the criteria for managerial activity are reduced to a time interval - from 2 years.
    Strange conditions. If you are 35 years old and have been successfully managing something for more than 5 years, then why do you need a contest? And so all is well. I doubt that Rogozin’s son needs him - Alexei, UAC vice president, 34 of the year. And if you do not successfully manage? For example, PI in humans. And the documentary entrepreneur is not all successful, because how else can small businesses survive? Taxes must be minimized.
    The competition would make sense just to identify leadership qualities among those who are not yet a leader, but have a desire to change things for the better and most importantly are ready to work, study, bear responsibility for this, even if to the detriment of some part their well-being. It doesn’t matter what age or management experience.
    I would go now. I'd like to change a lot for the better. Affect. But I'm an IP. laughing
  19. Mestny
    Mestny 16 October 2017 13: 22
    0
    Quote: Snail N9
    Lord, what nonsense. "Leaders of Russia" in the "competition". In the USSR, a person became a leader automatically when he coped with his duties and could do even more. People automatically moved up because "attention"! the country was constantly developing, new enterprises were being built,

    Automatically? Nothing like this. It was necessary to be still in an ideological cage - that is: to become an active Komsomol member, then a party member, activist, and so on. And only then, in the case of abilities in this direction, they opened up dearly to good, easy study, and to positions (read, to the steps of the social ladder). What could you become without being an active member of the party? A master at the factory? The foreman? - And even then not every team. And from the head of the workshop and above - if there were non-partisan ones, then they were as rare as good beef in Soviet stores.
  20. andrej-shironov
    andrej-shironov 16 October 2017 17: 55
    +1
    Oh my God! Well, what are we arguing about? Management crisis in Russia, this is a SYSTEM crisis! And since it is systemic, then it cannot be solved by any social elevators alone! It’s like trying to transplant one person’s kidney from another and hoping at the same time that if you are lucky and everything will take root! The management system itself, built by the neoliberals of the Yeltsin sourdough, will reject honest managers! Just because they will not be smeared! It is necessary to change the management system in Russia itself, and under it to conduct training, socialization of managerial personnel! But this is not the most important thing. It is necessary to change the socio-economic system in Russia. Because modern officials go to work exclusively for the posts that feed them, through bribes, administrative resources to their business, etc.
  21. nikvic46
    nikvic46 17 October 2017 11: 08
    +1
    I fear that the selection of a change in the future elite will not occur in innovative qualities, but in the likeness of the famous jury.
    We don’t like innovators. It’s better to go on a “rutted track”. But abroad they adore them.