Military Review

Vitaly Sundakov: The lie of official history

344
Vitaly Sundakov: The lie of official history



Culture is a cult. And without knowing the cults of one’s own people, one’s own race, or one’s own country, without knowing it storieshow can one be called a cultured person? So I dare to say that Russian citizens do not know the history of the Russian state, Russia!
The countdown of our national culture is, at best, with the adoption of Christianity, and at worst, with the Great October ... And what was there five and a half thousand years before this continuous calendar? Even Pushkin signed the old calendar: the year is five thousand six hundred and so ...

And what happened in these five thousand six hundred years? Where are they? Where can we find out about them? What is this great Vedic culture that has given and spawned many religious, linguistic and state entities? Why can we read about Tartary, the greatest empire, in some of the “British Encyclopedia”? And the fact that its capital, Moscow, we don’t know at all? Why? Because nobody told us about it. Never anywhere else.

For example, about our greatest heroes. Let's say about Prince Svyatoslav. Alexander the Great in comparison with him is just a puppy. The greatest heroes of the world who were great not only in our territory, but also in the whole world. But, for the sake of a particular concept, ideology, religion, all this was withdrawn, corresponded, burned, destroyed ...

What can I say, in the first 20 years of the Russian Academy of Sciences, there was not a single Russian - only Germans! And none of these Germans spoke Russian! And they copied all the books! The first Russian at the Academy was Mikhail Lomonosov.

"For such" scientific "work it is necessary to disrupt" epaulets "immediately"

Traditionally, the legendary vocation of the Varyag Rurik and his reigning brothers is considered the starting point of Russian statehood. This is how a part of this phrase really sounds, and not in a distorted version of the savage Normanists: “Our land is large and rich, but there is no outfit in it. Come to reign ... ". Note: not “order”, as translated, but “attire”! So in the chronicles of the Ipatiev list.

Attire - this is statehood, flags, banners, emblems, centralized control of the prince, the dressmaker. It remains close to the modern understanding of the word - "contractor" (the organizer of a number). And “order”, another word and another meaning, is the opposite of the chaos that, according to the ideology of the Normanists, was allegedly in Russia, until the cultural Germans-Swedes came to rule it. Here is a substitute.

Scientists who cite these lines did not read the original source, but relied on the authorities of their teachers, who also did not bother to go to the library, unfold the original source and make sure with their own eyes that the word “order” is missing, but there is an outfit and a dressmaker (prince). And there is direct evidence of this: in the Russian National Library in St. Petersburg, where the original source is stored (the Laurentian collection of chronicles), none of the modern scholars have ordered this source ever again! Preserved forms of the frequency of the demand of exhibits. This fact is very well beaten in the film M. Zadornov “Rurik. Lost profits.

And after all the scientific titles are necessary! Yes, for such an error, and even its repetition from the "scientific" work to the "scientific" work, it is necessary to disrupt the epaulettes immediately. This is not just a mistake, but a diversion! In scientific activity, this mistake is equal to the complete disqualification of the title "scientist", because a person relies on hearing and authoritative opinion, and does not conduct research, does not recheck data using facts established by experience.

And who can guarantee that the rest, allegedly "scientific statements", are not obtained in the same way? Who can say with confidence that everything that is written in our textbooks is true, if lies at the heart of a lie that is so easily verified? And it lasted for centuries! Note that no eminent historian has denied this lie. No one! This means that the word “science” is not applicable to what these people were and are doing, under the banner - “Russian historical science”.

“Why does Tutankhamen have a steel dagger from his belt and there are scenes of royal psovian hunting in oak woods on it?”

Here you have learned only one fact of substitution, and I know dozens of them, because I love to read the original sources. By the way, my familiar historians also do this, not wanting to rewrite and repeat someone's fiction, generated by unknown reasons. Once you come across a similar fact and immediately begin to recheck even the seemingly obvious things. And I assure you, along the way you will make a lot of discoveries.

So I can say with absolute certainty: there is no historical science as a science in the classical sense in Russia, it is only in its infancy. Instead, there is a legend, woven from a lie generated by political motives of different eras.

Take, for example, the famous Chinese wall. Naturally, the first question arises: why the loopholes on the wall are directed to the south side, toward China, and the entrances to the wall are also located on the outer, north side? Is that an architect’s fault or what? This means that it was not China that protected this wall from those who lived north of this wall, but they were from China. And who lived north of the Chinese wall? Our ancestors.

Or, for example, how much can we talk about such absolute nonsense as the Mongol-Tatar yoke? "Mogul" is a Greek word meaning "powerful" or "great", and only one country was great at that time - Tartaria. That is how our empire used to be called. Open the British Encyclopedia - to this day it says that Tartary is the largest empire, which included the whole of Ecumene. Or take the old card and read it.

I do, say, Egypt. That is why Tutankhamun has a steel dagger from his belt, and on it there are scenes of the royal canine hunting in oak forests? This is a simple question! This has been lying here for hundreds of years! And in the storerooms are steel swords with Arabica, which were in the hands of the pharaohs. And removed them only because it is impossible to explain it. So they need to hide.

Or I have another question: why the ancient Slavic exposition has never been exhibited in the main museums of the country? Why are Japanese, Flemish, German, Italian exhibited, and the exposure of our ancient culture is not? Guide museums silently points up. But it’s not Putin who bans them, it’s the ROC, which by no means wants us to think differently than suggest we think that we, say, lived in the forest and prayed to the wheel.

"The Slavs at all times put the chambers and mansions ..."

By the way, about the life in the forest. I studied wooden architecture throughout Russia. And my questions were found simple answers. We called bets a hut or a dwelling in which it was necessary to outbid, wait out dangerous times (for example, a war or a foray of enemies). Her hut hid where? In the trees, in the woods. So there were villages. There, in the forests, stood these huts, like temporary dwellings - with moss on the roof, with turf, and so on. And the Slavs at all times put the chamber and the mansion. And this has nothing to do with material well-being.

You bring down a tree, and now in order for you to put it in a crown, you make two cups in it. That in a big tree you cut down two cups, that in a small one - why cut it in half and make the same cups? Now, when the crowns are rolled over each other, a stove is placed in the middle, which heats the entire large room. Why do you need a small room? There is no point. Even on labor costs.

We have a mighty, ancient, great story. Since we started talking about the "Mongol-Tatar yoke", here are some more examples. Alexander Nevsky with his team defeated the best army in the world - professional Teutonic knights. What did we have at that time? "Mongol-Tatar yoke". After that, the “Tatars” came to us on their bow-legged horses, and what are we, again to them, then, paying tribute? Well, isn't it funny?

This is - time. But two: if we paid them tribute for three hundred years, then where is this tribute? Well, find me at least one of our items somewhere in Mongolia or China! Third: not a single horse will come from there to here or from here to there. Any horseman knows this. And there are a huge number of such inconsistencies.

Next: if you start to get acquainted with the documents, you find endless complaints of Tatars against the Russians attacking them. Monthly. And on the robberies that the Russians arranged for them. And the Tatars wrote complaints to Moscow, Novgorod: “Appeal them! How much more will we suffer? How long will we be charged? ” And so on.

“Arab, arap is not a curly black, but a scholar”

The Tatars are our closest brothers, our light cavalry actually. Because you can’t find a single Slavic saddle or a sword with us throughout Russia. You will have Viking swords and Turk saddles. And on all shields and helmets will be Arabic tie. Only this, supporters of the official history should be overwritten or hidden.

(Russian soldiers of that era perfectly understood what was written on their weapons. Because in Russia until the XVII century several alphabets and languages ​​were used, including the so-called Arabic (that is, scientific, scientific or secret for people of illiterate or foreigners) ligature. Arabic script was a special language of Russian soldiers, knights: words were written not from left to right, but from right to left, without capital letters, with a sufficient amount of distortion. Today, many Arabic words are easily guessed by sound or even read in Russian, if you read them the other way around. For example: The Qur'an is a narok (this is a Russian covenant - see the Dahl dictionary) or ashval is a left-handed person, etc. Alexander Pushkin was one of those who noticed the amazing similarity between the Russian and Arabic languages: “We are exactly a double nut under a single shell” (A. Pushkin, “Imitation of the Arabic”).)

If you understand that in the Middle Ages all scientists were called Arabs, then you understand who the Arabs are. Because then there was no ethnography, and there were no nationalities. The same Arab, “arap” of Peter the Great, is not a curly-headed Negro, but a scientist who was under Peter I. And the Jews were called all priests, since there was no such nationality. They were the guardians of the treasure, and they were the priests. And so the treasures that they guarded, this was the first starting capital, which was simply no one to give in the collapse of the Empire.

Or take the so-called "philosopher's stone." If you know that in the Middle Ages any science was called philosophy, then you understand that the philosopher's stone is a scientific stone. Once scientific, it means not natural, but artificial. What is an artificial stone? Concrete. And when you read the sources, it says: “I will return the secret of the philosopher's stone. We will be able to erect indestructible walls and hailstones ”. Of what? From the concrete of it. From the "philosophical", that is, scientific stone. And here gold and mercury in general? What sick imagination did it come up with?
Author:
Originator:
http://www.km.ru/science-tech/2017/10/09/istoriya-drevnego-mira/811946-vitalii-sundakov-lozh-ofitsialnoi-istorii
344 comments
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  1. BABA SHURA
    BABA SHURA 12 October 2017 15: 09
    +4
    Why unclip the clips from the pipe?
    1. venaya
      venaya 12 October 2017 15: 35
      +9
      "Why decorate"- textual perception of information is often better perceived by man. There are controversial issues and they need to be more thoroughly aware. This is the nature of man.
      1. badens1111
        badens1111 12 October 2017 18: 34
        +1
        Quote: venaya
        There are controversial issues and they need to be more thoroughly aware. This is the nature of man.

        I give it.
        In the 6-7 centuries BC, the Cimmerians were conquered by the Scythians - a nomadic tribe similar in occupation, however, possessing the most powerful weapon of all time: the vertical of power. The Scythians did not start genocide, as the conquerors of that time often liked. After “dissolving” the Cimmerians in themselves, they owned their lands for almost a thousand years, until new masters, the Sarmatians, came. The Cimmerians have disappeared, however, their genes still live in millions of people in modern Europe.

        https://cont.ws/@sage/739756
    2. Vend
      Vend 12 October 2017 16: 13
      +6
      “Our land is large and plentiful, but there is no outfit in it. Come to reign ... ". Note: not “order” as they translate, but “order”! This is not just a mistake, but a sabotage!
      Thanks to Academician Likhachev.
      1. Kenxnumx
        Kenxnumx 12 October 2017 17: 43
        +2
        There is still about the officer who strongly exhibited a number. Probably they are friends with Zadornov
        1. Mavrikiy
          Mavrikiy 12 October 2017 20: 57
          +7
          Quote: Ken71
          There is still about the officer who strongly exhibited a number. Probably they are friends with Zadornov

          Che so sausages that, sweetheart. In 5 hours 16 posts baked? Or did you get the loot?
          "Who are you working for, Dunkel?"
      2. Skeptic
        Skeptic 12 October 2017 17: 54
        15
        More such articles. It is necessary that the biomass goes out of the underground so that they do not hesitate to speak out. To immediately see how it relates to him.
        1. 18rus
          18rus 16 October 2017 21: 52
          +1
          And we all laughed at the “historians of the land”, it turns out we also have a bunch of followers to boot. :-)
      3. papalazer1973
        papalazer1973 April 15 2020 23: 10
        0
        What does he have to do with it? Russian is written in white - historians do not need primary sources !!!
    3. siberalt
      siberalt 12 October 2017 18: 48
      +7
      Well, the Russian landowner Tutankhamun presented his blade and so what? laughing History, like rewriting one handwritten fable with the addition of its own, is not a science at all. But without this, you will not become either a candidate or a doctor. History can become a science, but synthetic in combination with fundamental, and irrefutable facts, verified along the entire chain of scientific knowledge. But for this it is necessary to abolish the state, as such.
      1. Sasha71
        Sasha71 13 October 2017 00: 13
        0
        siberaltthink deeply. Conceptually. And the state in its modern form is a backward instrument of violence, an outdated form of organization, without the abolition of which it is impossible to change the science that is at an impasse.
    4. Mavrikiy
      Mavrikiy 12 October 2017 20: 48
      10
      Quote: BABA SHURA
      Why unclip the clips from the pipe?

      For smart people. Smart reads and thinks, and re-reads the line, and stops. Reading is a creative process. A fan of watching cartoons .... flew into one ear, into the other ...
    5. Antianglosax
      Antianglosax 12 October 2017 21: 11
      +4
      Great person! And the right one. I listened to this video a few years ago. Very interested. Now I already have clear answers to some of these questions, but how much more to read, study!
      1. Basil50
        Basil50 13 October 2017 07: 33
        +7
        Even in the comments, the question of education did not arise. And essentially there are no questions either.
        The author is right that in RUSSIA only those who know the mythology of the Egyptians and other Greeks are considered educated. Today, Jewish mythology is being added. It’s even more difficult with culture, today the church determines the level of culture, and in the hands of the churchmen a criminal article is punished for the vulnerability of their own feelings.
    6. papalazer1973
      papalazer1973 April 15 2020 23: 07
      0
      for the convenience of copying text - today the article was very useful.
  2. Kenxnumx
    Kenxnumx 12 October 2017 15: 15
    12
    What is this nonsense. The journalist is a survivor and specialist in lullabies. Steeper expert was not found.
    1. venaya
      venaya 12 October 2017 15: 32
      18
      Quote: Ken71
      .. specialist in lullabies of civilizations. Steeper expert was not found.

      Offer your options. Here, on the VO website, there is an open discussion about why you don’t hear the opinions of your opponents, or you are so close to God that you know the ultimate truth, so to speak, the Lord himself whispered into your ears.
      1. Kenxnumx
        Kenxnumx 12 October 2017 15: 51
        +9
        This is not an opponent; this is an alternative alternative to science fiction. The historian relies on documents and special sciences such as archeology, etc.
        1. venaya
          venaya 12 October 2017 16: 23
          15
          Quote: Ken71
          .. Historian relies on documents and special sciences ..

          Where and when did you notice it. You don’t know the facts of total falsification of documents, but on the basis of many special sciences, Sundukov draws his conclusions, and they may differ from the conclusions of specialists in other fields of knowledge, here, in these matters, an open, unbiased discussion is just necessary .
          1. Kenxnumx
            Kenxnumx 12 October 2017 17: 45
            +7
            What sciences. In what sciences does this journalist understand at least. He can twist the words according to Zadornov. Of course the village is in the trees and the officer is the one that rows the row.
        2. Vend
          Vend 12 October 2017 17: 52
          +2
          Quote: Ken71
          This is not an opponent; this is an alternative alternative to science fiction. The historian relies on documents and special sciences such as archeology, etc.

          You are right, but there is interpretation and silence. Read for example the "Circle of the Earth", there is a lot of material on the Slavs, which no one mentions anywhere.
        3. Spnsr
          Spnsr 12 October 2017 19: 00
          +5
          Quote: Ken71
          This is not an opponent; this is an alternative alternative to science fiction. The historian relies on documents and special sciences such as archeology, etc.

          You do not mock please, if you say an alternative, then do not say science fiction.
          But in general,
          documents and special sciences such as archeology, etc.
          all these documents and special sciences such as archeology, etc. can be interpreted differently, and this is another interpretation of the same documents, an alternative ...
      2. badens1111
        badens1111 12 October 2017 16: 21
        +4
        Quote: venaya
        Offer your options.

        At best, the countdown of Russian culture is carried out with the adoption of Christianity, and at worst with the Great October ... ... phrase from Sundukov ... If this author of the opus does not dare, say that the history of Russia is only 25 years old according to Medvedev . what else to expect from him, in his analysis?
        A rare case when
        Quote: Ken71
        This is not an opponent; this is an alternative alternative to science fiction. The historian relies on documents and special sciences such as archeology, etc.

        You can agree with the opinion.
        1. venaya
          venaya 12 October 2017 16: 33
          +4
          Quote: badens1111
          .. this author of the opus does not dare to say that the history of Russia is only 25 years old, according to Medvedev.

          Well, young Medvedev, born in the USSR, indeed, studied according to Soviet textbooks, possibly according to the school textbook of academician M.N. Don't you know that? Read, there is a lot of "interesting" written. But Medvedev himself is the son of his father, a professor, the head of the department of Scientific Communism. So then they taught "history", why be surprised at the subsequent rout of the country. Perhaps because of this you agreed with the opinion of "Ken71", thereby at least indirectly participating in this worldwide tragedy.
          1. badens1111
            badens1111 12 October 2017 17: 10
            +4
            Quote: venaya
            school textbook of academician M.N. Pokrovsky.

            This is the one whose dubious quality calculations were rejected as early as 30?
            Quote: venaya
            But Medvedev himself is the son of his father, a professor, the head of the department of Scientific Communism. That's how they taught "history",

            Well, what he “taught”, let it remain on his conscience or whatever replaces it.
            At the expense of Pokrovsky's "textbooks ... Are you lost in time?"
            "In the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR and the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks," the decree of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks and the Council of People's Commissars of January 26, 1936 indicated that "among some of our historians, especially historians of the USSR, anti-Marxist, anti-Leninist, essentially liquidationist, anti-scientific views on historical science. The Council of People's Commissars and the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks (Bolsheviks) emphasize that these harmful tendencies and attempts to liquidate history as a science are primarily associated with the spread among some of our historians of erroneous historical views characteristic of the so-called Pokrovsky’s historical school "[19] [20]. Representatives of the" school "declared active critics of Pokrovsky during his lifetime, the young historians E. Ya. Gazganov, A. I. Lomakin and P. S. Drozdov and S. A. Piontkovsky forever against him. A year after the arrest, associates of V.I. Nevsky P.I. Anatolyev, V. 3. Zeltser, P.P. Paradizov were assigned to her [2].
            Rehabilitation of the Pokrovsky school began after the Twentieth Congress of the CPSU, that is, say thanks to Khrushchev, the spiritual father of all the changeling.
            But are you really sure that Fomenko, Sundukov and others are Truth in the last resort?
            1. fzr1000
              fzr1000 12 October 2017 17: 51
              13
              What does Fomenko have to do with it? On the territory of the Kremlin of Veliky Novgorod, treasures with Arab coins in very large numbers were found, and there were only one Norman. But according to Norman theory it should be the other way around. This is an archaeological fact.
              Only the lazy did not write about the Chinese wall. The official interpretations of history are generally not worth believing. Americans won’t destroy anyone according to their textbooks.
              1. badens1111
                badens1111 12 October 2017 18: 22
                +3
                Quote: fzr1000
                On the territory of the Kremlin of Veliky Novgorod, treasures with Arab coins in very large numbers were found, and there were only one Norman. But according to Norman theory it should be the other way around. This is an archaeological fact.

                Did I deny him?
                Moreover, all this rubbish of the Normans, yes, sabotage, in fact against Russia.
                The Scandinavians called Russia, Gaidarika, the country of cities, but whoever showed the same cities to the Normans, but they are not. At least before 10-11 centuries.
                However, it is worth remembering who the text corresponded with.
                And to draw an analogy with the very recent mass sweeping of archives under Khrushchev and no less massive falsification under Yakovlev and Yeltsin, we are now reaping the benefits.
                So to study the past. It is necessary, but do not make sensations on it and invent different alternatives ..
                1. Kenxnumx
                  Kenxnumx 12 October 2017 22: 04
                  +1
                  Not cities, but fortifications. That is, villages referred by tyn. The Scandinavians themselves were not keen on such fortifications and this surprised them.
            2. passerby5
              passerby5 13 October 2017 14: 12
              0
              to your question (at least not to me): if you think about it, where is the truth? here it seems to refer to the source .... and I was taught that the mother of our ancestors drove .... where is the truth brother?
      3. passerby5
        passerby5 13 October 2017 11: 11
        +1
        strongly you him ++++++++))))
    2. antivirus
      antivirus 12 October 2017 17: 14
      +4
      HERE FROM WHOM THE UKRIANS WENT !!!!
      The Tartars needed a path to the south and the Ukrians dug up the sea. It all fits together!
    3. Ehanatone
      Ehanatone 13 October 2017 20: 12
      -1
      Ken 73
      But more specifically with the facts with links!?
      And then not FSE inflate the bills! ...
  3. venaya
    venaya 12 October 2017 15: 26
    15
    in the created Russian Academy of Sciences for the first twenty years not a single Russian was .. And no one of these did not speak Russian! And they rewrote all the books! The first Russian at the Academy was Mikhail Lomonosov. .. And after all the scientific ranks were received! .. means the word "science" is not applicableto what these people did and do, under the sign - "Russian historical science"..

    It is possible to disagree with something, with some of his position, but it is simply not possible to disagree with these words of Vitaliy Sundakov! The article is a definite plus (+)! It is advisable to continue this topic with the involvement of other authors.
    1. Kenxnumx
      Kenxnumx 12 October 2017 15: 48
      +7
      If you order yourself a little work to find out exactly which foreigners were invited first and in which specific departments you will also learn that not one of them could deal with Russian history professionally. And if you give yourself even the slightest difficulty in applying logic, then you will have a question that if the Germans rewrote our entire history, then how did Sundukov find out how it really was. He had voices or Etruscans that the Russians suggested.
      1. DV69
        DV69 12 October 2017 17: 36
        +9
        Quote: Ken71
        what specific foreigners were invited first and in which specific departments you will also learn that not one of them could deal with Russian history professionally.

        Answer my dear, what did one Miller (who Lomonosov broke his nose for such "activities" at the symposium) and Schletser?
        1. Kenxnumx
          Kenxnumx 12 October 2017 17: 58
          +4
          Miller, unlike the drunk and the Buyan Lomonosov, wound around ethnographic expeditions, as it is now called, found and published chronicles, and certainly did not rewrite Russian history, but rather was one of the founders of the scientific approach to its study. And by the way, he knew Russian. Only he was not part of the original academicians. By the way, judging by the fact that for a fight with Lomonosov, he was punished much more unknown who broke something more. So it wasn’t too foolish in Russian citizenship.
          1. DV69
            DV69 12 October 2017 18: 13
            12
            Quote: Ken71
            Miller, unlike the drunk and Buyan Lomonosov, wound on ethnographic expeditions

            I hasten to disappoint you. Unlike the “drunk” Lomonosov, Miller did not know the Russian language and did not want to learn it. He didn’t give a damn about Russian and Russian.
            So it’s not clear what kind of discoveries Miller could have made on these expeditions.

            Where did you get that Miller knew the language
            1. Kenxnumx
              Kenxnumx 12 October 2017 19: 06
              +1
              From there, he edited the Russian editions by post published in Russian, worked with the Russian archives. But why did you get that he did not know Russian, I don’t understand.
              1. DV69
                DV69 12 October 2017 19: 10
                +6
                Quote: Ken71
                From there, he edited the Russian editions by post published in Russian, worked with the Russian archives.

                Facts to the studio! Give the facts of Miller’s knowledge of the Russian language!
                No empty words
                By the way, the fact that Miller didn’t know the language was not spoken by the same Lomonosov.
                1. Kenxnumx
                  Kenxnumx 12 October 2017 19: 39
                  +2
                  You are healthy, my sir. Books in Russian; Periodicals in Russian. What else do you need. What are the facts. Moreover, that speech because of which he had a fight with Lomonosov was written and read in Russian.
                  1. Sasha71
                    Sasha71 13 October 2017 02: 46
                    +4
                    Just the speech was delivered in German. That is why Miller did not understand the pun. Lomonosov hat mir meine Nase verbrochen. )))
                  2. DV69
                    DV69 13 October 2017 09: 32
                    +2
                    You got me.
                    http://lazarev.org/ru?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fgorod.toms
                    k.ru% 2Findex-1229650366.php
                    Learn.
    2. Prosha
      Prosha 4 May 2019 17: 05
      0
      I read the comments here and I felt completely ill - you have a good argument, everything is not correct and Lomonosov at the time ... But I just remember the history and see the German Empress of Russia, but in spirit there was no more "Rusyaway" all Russians would be such a nemkoy.So probably, not nationality leads and conscience and duty. Otherwise, if you listen to you, there was no Russian science, because there were imported scientists at the beginning.
      As for Sundakov, there are a lot of them now in the era of the developing Internet, and with the development of YouTube channels and others, all silliness strives to become truth in the first instance, and the comrade not only never studied history, as many industry experts practice, but in general has the education of a talker, that is - a journalist, well, from here and all the ensuing.
  4. Thunderbolt
    Thunderbolt 12 October 2017 15: 40
    +5
    What sick imagination did it come up with?
    Loved this last line! It could be in the title of it! good
  5. Varyag77
    Varyag77 12 October 2017 15: 47
    10
    Well, Sundakov has one problem with Fomenko. The guys are talking. This is extremely annoying, because both Fomenko and Sundakov have really sensible thoughts, and let's say finds of historical inconsistencies. But developing these shoals of official history, they are so fantastic that they almost completely level their achievements
    1. knn54
      knn54 12 October 2017 17: 49
      +6
      Varangian and Co. Do not like Fomenko, Sundakov read at least Mavro Orbini (not Slovenian) "Slavic kingdom". There is a rather funny historical novel by I. Bilyk "The Sword of Ares", almost the entire circulation of which the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine ordered to seize and destroy in 1972, but not for the content, but for the quotes (in the appendix) from the REAL opuses of medieval authors. In particular, the Huns tall and bearded, live in WOODEN houses and their virgins are beautiful (not verbatim) ...
      1. Aposlya
        Aposlya 15 October 2017 13: 32
        0
        Quote: knn54
        read at least the Mavro Orbini (not Slovenian)

        How is it not a Slav? He was a Croat, i.e. the most natural Slav. And to bring this medieval "Fomenko" is not comme il faut. The same Orbini wrote that the Greeks, Avars (Huns), Germans are all Slavs! laughing
    2. Severomor
      Severomor 12 October 2017 17: 59
      +4
      Quote: Varyag77
      The guys are talking. This is extremely annoying, because both Fomenko and Sundakov have really sensible thoughts, and let's say finds of historical inconsistencies.

      I agree with you, it seems everything is folding, but "a little lie gives rise to distrust" (c)

      Third: not a single horse will get from here to here or from here to there. Any horse knows that.

      There were repeatedly disputes about Mongolian horses, so 1,5 myo of these horses came to us in the Second World War, it seems they drove herds. Came ... of course not the army and not in the saddle. Berlin came, like a family of camels. )))
      And this is despite the fact that I never believe in the so-called. tat. -mong yoke, on a winter hike of unshackled horses, along river beds, 30 000 people, 90 000 horses, without a convoy with stone throwers, etc. etc.
      1. Spnsr
        Spnsr 12 October 2017 20: 18
        +3
        Quote: Severomor
        And this is despite the fact that I never believe in the so-called. tat. -mong yoke, on a winter hike of unshackled horses, along river beds, 30 000 people, 90 000 horses, without a convoy with stone throwers, etc. etc.

        I would add here that the Mongols on the planet earth could be anyone, but not those who were appointed to be Mongols in the 20th century
        And before the formation of Mongolia as such, the population of this territory was called differently!
        1. andj61
          andj61 13 October 2017 11: 07
          +4
          Quote: SpnSr
          And before the formation of Mongolia as such, the population of this territory was called differently!

          Yes, even now they are called differently - Khalkha, and there are also a bunch of other Mongolian peoples - Buryats, Barguts, Kalmyks, Oirats, Chahars, Khorchins, Kharachins, Aruchorchins, Tumets, Jalaites, Avga, Aghnars, Baarins, Mu-Myangata, Naimans, Aohan , onnuts, durban-huhety, urats, throats, hordes, hongirats, jaruts, uzumchins, khuchits, mongors (tu) (they only have one of the self-names similar to the official "mongols" - choir, mangule, manguer kun), daurs, Dongxiang, Bao'an.
          1. Spnsr
            Spnsr 18 October 2017 23: 18
            0
            Quote: andj61
            daura

            I have an apartment on Daurskaya Street, and many of the Cossacks associate themselves with Dauria! That's just modern Mongols are not there !!! even physiologically !!!
            1. andj61
              andj61 19 October 2017 08: 22
              0
              Quote: SpnSr
              I have an apartment on Daurskaya Street, and many of the Cossacks associate themselves with Dauria! That's just modern Mongols are not there !!! even physiologically !!!

              So what? Daur is one of the Mongolian peoples. At one time - the 19th century - many Buryats, Mongols, Daurs, etc. were copied to Cossacks. So the Cossacks have something to do with them. In literature, for example, about the period of the REV or civil war, this was reflected - often Cossacks are described as real Mongoloids. But such was the policy of the Empire. Regarding toponomics, people living in the North or South Dakota in the United States for more than 99 percent have nothing to do with the Indian people ...
              1. Dzungar
                Dzungar 19 October 2017 16: 31
                +1
                In the Transbaikal Cossack army, many Buryats Cossacks served. In addition, in the Chita region there are many Russian mixed breeds and Buryats. They are called Guranas. So there is nothing particularly wrong with this when the Cossacks were described as Mongols in appearance ...
      2. Per se.
        Per se. 13 October 2017 12: 42
        +4
        Quote: Severomor
        And this is despite the fact that I never believe in the so-called. tat. -mong yoke, on a winter hike of unshackled horses, along river beds, 30 000 people, 90 000 horses, without a convoy with stone throwers, etc. etc.
        Firstly, the “kamnemety”, like other siege weapons, gathered at the siege, nobody dragged them like guns. Secondly, the Mongols did not move to the West through the tundra and taiga, but in the southern regions, the theme of Napoleonic horses “on summer tires” does not roll here. Now there are a lot of songs that there was no yoke, especially from inquisitive minds from sunny Tatarstan and our Russian brothers who are offended by this. "There was no" Genghis Khan (Chingis Khaan), "there was no" battle on the Kalka, "there was no" Mamaia and the Kulikovo battle, "there was" no empire of the Mongols and the Golden Horde, and the tribute, apparently, were "kickbacks" and writing off mythical Tatar-Mongol plundered funds from the treasury. As for the article, well, the person is entitled to his opinion. Let there be a “culture” from a “cult”, as was the “economy” from a “economy”. Russia will survive this ... It is only necessary to decide who is descended from Adam and Eve, and who, according to Darwin, from monkeys, then it will become clear, the Jews gave birth to humanity, monkeys, or both, but before which were still Russian.
        1. Severomor
          Severomor 13 October 2017 13: 17
          +2
          Quote: Per se.
          Firstly, "stone-throwers", like other siege weapons, were assembled during the siege, no one dragged them like guns

          This is understandable since moved without a wagon train, the great Chinese craftsmen from these magnificent winter forests of the Vladimir-Suzdal land made these tools.
          After uprooting the stumps, stones for tools were collected ... preferably of the same caliber .... and all this in the winter
          1. Per se.
            Per se. 13 October 2017 15: 49
            +2
            Quote: Severomor
            the great Chinese craftsmen made these guns from the most magnificent winter forest of the Vladimir-Suzdal land.
            Almost like that, dear Igor. The basis of the Mongolian army was the cavalry, with very fast movement of the Mongolian troops. They did not have any wagons in which they were carrying multimeter assault ladders, carrying piles of stones, rolling siege towers and rams, such vehicles as trebuchet or other stone-throwers. All this was done by engineers and captive slaves at the site of the siege and the alleged assault on the city. I will tell you more, even the Romans, who had infantry at the core of their army and used carriages, during the siege of Jerusalem in 70 year (from the birth of Christ), raised all trees in the vicinity to build siege equipment. As for winter in Russia, the Mongols used it to move along the channels of frozen rivers, they generally carefully chose the seasons and directions of movements most favorable for their maneuverable tactics. If a siege was started, it was a long and tedious affair (for example, according to the legend of Troy, the Greeks besieged 10 for years), so it was time to wait for the summer and plan a catapult and other “stone-throwers”. In general, thank you for your attention and your naval humor (which, perhaps, without comprehending "ground fuel oil" will still understand).
            1. Severomor
              Severomor 13 October 2017 16: 38
              +3
              Well, with Rome, it’s less clear, although of course
              Quote: Per se.
              having infantry at the base of their army and using convoys,
              they were dumb, they besieged for a long time. Whether it is the state of the nomads, which is fifty years old. Here it is learnability. In winter, cities were sieged from a week to seven days.
              By the way, I haven’t discussed you with you yet. A very important point, war-war, but you need to eat. But to be honest in two or three topics about IT)))) already existed. Good luck
            2. Ulan
              Ulan 13 October 2017 17: 41
              +4
              For some reason, they believe that Alexander the Great got with heavily armed infantry to India. They believe in Tamerlane's campaigns. They believe in the Crusades, they believe that the Roman legionaries reached England, but the Mongols could not get to Khorezm and the Caucasus, to the Volga Bulgaria and beyond.
              Rusich incidentally also reached the Volga Bulgaria.
              But the Mongols could not.
              They invented some huge carts with women, old people and children, which supposedly the Mongols carried with them.
              Probably from the film, "Ilya Muromets", where Kalin the Tsar drags a huge convoy with him on a campaign to Kiev.
              You see, Mongolian horses were unchained. And who said that? That the Mongols were so stupid that they could not forge horses, could not think of it, or adopt from neighbors? So complex siege weapons were adopted, weapons systems were adopted, but the horseshoe wasn’t smart enough?
              And then, Przhevalsky’s horses still run without horseshoes. Who mustanged the mustangs on the prairies?
              In general, a far-fetched pretext, supposedly the impossibility of moving such equestrian masses.
              The Scythians were also horsemen, didn’t they exist too? And the Arabs who conquered Spain?
              Well, everyone could, except the Mongols. Someone seems shameful that we lost to the "wild" Mongols, but the fact that we fought for a long time with the nomad Polovtsy-Kumans and were beaten by them many times does not bother them.
              So there was no Battle of Kulikovo, or is it Ataman Old Man, fought with Ataman Mama, as Fomenko claims? There was no standing on the Ugra, the Battle of Vorskla was not, the Battle of Grunwald was not, the Battle of Molodi.
              Tokhtamysh did not burn Moscow and Tamerlan did not go to Moscow.
              1. Rurikovich
                Rurikovich 13 October 2017 18: 47
                +4
                Quote: Ulan
                So there was no Battle of Kulikovo, or is it Ataman Old Man, fought with Ataman Mama, as Fomenko claims?

                Do not distort wink EMNIP.Fomenko did not claim that there was no Kulikovo battle. He claimed that she was, but only in a different place and gives his arguments yes Believe it or not is everyone's personal business. Believing officialdom or not is also a private matter. But you need to believe the arguments without "this cannot be, because this cannot be," including the brains request
                1. Ulan
                  Ulan 13 October 2017 19: 27
                  +3
                  I do not argue with this. As I do not argue with the fact that in history there are many blank spots and facts that the official history prefers not to notice.
                  1. Rurikovich
                    Rurikovich 13 October 2017 19: 53
                    0
                    Quote: Ulan
                    I don’t argue with the fact that in history there are many blank spots and facts that the official history prefers not to notice.

                    Oh, already recognizing that history is not infallible allows you to put a star soldier
                2. Ulan
                  Ulan 13 October 2017 20: 04
                  +2
                  Fomenko wrote that this was fought by two Russian armies, the Cossack Old Man and the Cossack Mom
                  1. Rurikovich
                    Rurikovich 13 October 2017 22: 27
                    0
                    Quote: Ulan
                    Fomenko wrote that this was fought by two Russian armies, the Cossack Old Man and the Cossack Mom

                    And here you are frankly lying yes Fomenko did not write this
        2. Spnsr
          Spnsr 14 October 2017 10: 24
          +1
          Quote: Per se.
          from Adam and Eve, and who according to Darwin from monkeys,

          I admire the peremptory of your opinion! It feels like you are a direct participant in those events! And if not, then with the same peremptory one can argue that if there were Mongols, then these are not the Mongols who are called such now. And the reason they are not the Mongols at all by their own name, but they were called the Mongols in only 3 decades of the last century. And the Chinese, who created them stenobitnye guns, in no way those Chinese who are China or Chinoza.
          And it can also be argued categorically that these tools were created by artisans from the Chinese city, which was in any large city, read the Principality of Tsarstvo.
          1. Per se.
            Per se. 14 October 2017 18: 52
            +1
            Quote: SpnSr
            It seems that you are a direct participant in those events!
            God be with you, Stepan! I just expressed my opinion, nothing more, and my "peremptory" is no more than yours or someone else in the comments. If you know the witnesses of the flood or the creation of the world, share information, especially if only they here and now can express their judgment on the topic.
            1. Spnsr
              Spnsr 18 October 2017 23: 00
              +1
              Quote: Per se.
              Quote: SpnSr
              It seems that you are a direct participant in those events!
              God be with you, Stepan! I just expressed my opinion, nothing more, and my "peremptory" is no more than yours or someone else in the comments. If you know the witnesses of the flood or the creation of the world, share information, especially if only they here and now can express their judgment on the topic.

              Well then, your opinion loses any justification! especially in view of the fact that, from the 12th century to the present day, there is more often a confrontation between Russia and Western Europe, and this is at least every yoke, be it the rule of the Roans, Stalin, the Communists, or now Putin treat the Mongol Tatars as an yoke, empty!
              any government on the territory of Russia, the Russian Empire, the USSR, was interpreted as a yoke to mislead itself and its loved ones !!!
              now the Baltic countries call it acupation !!!
          2. Dzungar
            Dzungar 19 October 2017 18: 21
            +1
            If you believe it, then the current Russians are not at all the Russians that were before .... Or maybe there were none at all ...?
      3. Aposlya
        Aposlya 15 October 2017 13: 35
        0
        Quote: Severomor
        And this despite the fact that I never believe in the so-called. tat. Mong. yoke, in a winter campaign of ungrounded horses

        By the way, where does this infa about ungrounded horses come from? I don’t know how there in the 13th century the Mongols treated horses, and whether they were with them in the 13th century, but the Türks from ancient times grounded their horses.
        1. Spnsr
          Spnsr 19 October 2017 01: 05
          0
          Quote: Aposlya
          Quote: Severomor
          And this despite the fact that I never believe in the so-called. tat. Mong. yoke, in a winter campaign of ungrounded horses

          By the way, where does this infa about ungrounded horses come from? I don’t know how there in the 13th century the Mongols treated horses, and whether they were with them in the 13th century, but the Türks from ancient times grounded their horses.

          who are the turks? you probably mean the Turkic-speaking tribes?
  6. Varyag77
    Varyag77 12 October 2017 15: 54
    +9
    Quote: Ken71
    This is not an opponent; this is an alternative alternative to science fiction. The historian relies on documents and special sciences such as archeology, etc.

    Colleague You are not quite right. There are already so many archaeological finds in the world that put a big question mark on official history that there is nowhere to add. However, they are not in a hurry to rewrite history
    1. Kenxnumx
      Kenxnumx 12 October 2017 16: 01
      +3
      But I never argue. And what's more, there are different trends in official history. But anyone who is trying to say something new is based on a specific document and data from related studies. And this one has something like that. The Russians built a tower ....
      1. San Sanych
        San Sanych 12 October 2017 17: 00
        10
        the author may be overdoing something in some ways, but the fact that almost nothing is known about the pre-Christian period in the history of Russia or Russia suggests that after all someone really tried to make as little as possible aware of this period
        1. Kenxnumx
          Kenxnumx 12 October 2017 17: 30
          +2
          And little is known about the history of the Chukchi. There was no written language, however.
          1. fzr1000
            fzr1000 12 October 2017 17: 54
            +7
            Birch-bark letters from Novgorod with shopping lists on the market look at you in bewilderment.
            1. Kenxnumx
              Kenxnumx 12 October 2017 18: 09
              +1
              What a century of literacy. All 5 thousand years of alleged history of the Slavs. And so gadamot yes. I even have a piece of birch bark from the excavation site lying somewhere.
              1. the lord
                the lord 14 October 2017 07: 32
                +2
                And yet, where did the five thousand years of those indicated on the calendar go? And in vain you are so about the lack of documents from the pre-Christian era. Do you know where and how the arzhives were stored in Christian, pre-Romanov Russia? Within the walls of the Kremlin, monasteries and fortresses, in bulk, in heaps. It is easy to guess the degree of their safety, especially after sieges and assaults. And the documents sent by Peter to Vienna for analysis and classification? There was a lot of ancient things, but they weren’t rewritten when they were sent, they hoped for the Austrians, and in the end they "lost" them all. Yes, and many themselves destroyed the Russian Orthodox Church as satanic. Therefore, we do not know much, and therefore it is worth changing such an intensity of intransigence. "A piece of birch bark" is a simple material for simple muffs ...
        2. DV69
          DV69 12 October 2017 17: 39
          +7
          Quote: San Sanych
          that almost nothing is known about the pre-Christian period in the history of Russia or Russia, suggests that after all someone really tried to make as little as possible aware of this period

          I will support. For example, now in the yard is summer 7526 from the farm in the land of agriculture, tell me, where have more than 5 thousand years of our history gone?
  7. Uncle Vanya Susanin
    Uncle Vanya Susanin 12 October 2017 15: 57
    11
    “Alexander Nevsky with his retinue defeated the best army in the world - professional Teutonic knights. And what did we have at that time? The Mongol-Tatar yoke.” The Tatars then rode to us on their canine-footed horses, and we again "So we pay tribute? Well, isn't it funny?" - it’s not funny at all, the Mongols had an advanced army, for that time, and the best tactics of using light cavalry !!! "Third: not a single horse will get from here to here or from here to there. Any horse knows that. And there are a huge number of such inconsistencies." - he comes up with these inconsistencies, the Mongols raided Russia not from the territory of modern Mongolia, IMHO - vicious pseudoscientific nonsense, and an attempt to speculate on historical topics !!!
    1. venaya
      venaya 12 October 2017 16: 16
      +6
      Quote: Uncle Vanya Susanin
      .. Well, isn't it funny? "- not at all funny, the Mongols had an advanced army, for that time, and the best tactics of using light cavalry !!!

      And how do you manage to explain the fact that the Mongols themselves, as a nationality, were born only at the beginning of the XNUMXth century? You see, not a docking is much more than a single person can imagine, this should be taken into account. What you personally describe here in and of itself already includes a huge number of these non-connections. This “science” has become so overwhelmed and overwhelmed that there is no practical possibility to straighten it out at least somehow. Leading historians themselves are openly talking about this, trying to somehow rectify this situation, and they believe that this is not realistic in the near future.
      1. badens1111
        badens1111 12 October 2017 16: 25
        0
        Quote: venaya
        This “science” has become so overwhelmed and overwhelmed that there is no practical possibility to straighten it out at least somehow.

        Poking around in the epochs of very distant ones is interesting, but it is much more useful to understand one’s recent, not turning it over and not allowing one to lie to one’s past, though distant or close, then there will be no flaws in the history of the country.
      2. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 12 October 2017 16: 34
        +6
        Quote: venaya
        And how do you manage to explain the fact that the Mongols themselves, as a nationality, were born only at the beginning of the XNUMXth century?

        They won’t explain in any way laughing !!!! Because if they said that the yoke was, then it was, if they said that the Mongols "played", then the Mongols. laughing And other thoughts - HERESY laughing Because history is infallible fool
        So Fomenko and Nosovsky will also be faulty (although do not blame me, but they have sensible explanations for the inconsistencies of modern history with a wagon and a small cart yes ), and the same Sundakova (he also says very sensible things)
        And the whole point is that we all weaned off thinking logically, and we only believe what we are taught at school (ACADEMICIANS wrote books there). But ask a question for yourself: What if the whole story (well, the majority) is really fiction ??? Yeah, no matter how laughing Therefore, there is such a rejection of other points of view.
        Believe in the nonsense about the yoke, when the adversaries ripped off tithing? laughing Today you pay taxes more than a tenth and do not groan under the yoke wink
        Personally, I do not believe history almost until the beginning of the twentieth century. Since the time of the Romanovs, they have either been completely rewritten (Doromanovskaya) or written for themselves (from Peter I). hi
        1. Ingvar 72
          Ingvar 72 12 October 2017 18: 55
          +3
          Quote: Rurikovich
          Personally, I do not believe history almost until the beginning of the twentieth century.

          And then? Here, for 25 years, Stalin was first crap, then washed. (Not until the end). But Jacob Sverdlov street is one of the central in Togliatti. And even Tukhachevsky street is.
          1. Rurikovich
            Rurikovich 12 October 2017 19: 21
            +4
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            And then?

            Here at least one could ask his grandfather, but he would tell that he heard from his wink And go 200-300 years ago, believe what is written repeat
            And if today we ourselves see how history can be "drawn", then are there any doubts that they could have been painted 200-300 years ago too? what winked
            1. Ingvar 72
              Ingvar 72 12 October 2017 20: 59
              +2
              Quote: Rurikovich
              Here at least one could ask his grandfather, but he would tell that he heard from his

              Exactly. But grandfather's stories were different from official stories. Although he never scolded Stalin. drinks
              1. Rurikovich
                Rurikovich 12 October 2017 21: 34
                +1
                Quote: Ingvar 72
                But grandfather's stories were different from official stories. Although he never scolded Stalin. drinks

                Thats exactly what I mean drinks yes
        2. Spnsr
          Spnsr 13 October 2017 11: 04
          +3
          Quote: Rurikovich
          Believe in the nonsense about the yoke, when the adversaries ripped off tithing? Today you pay taxes more than a tenth and do not groan under the yoke

          That’s not the word, 13% personal income tax, + 18% VAT, here you can make a plus from 22 to 36% pension fund, + transport, property taxes, all kinds of excise taxes! Igo oshoshny wassat
          By the way, at one time the reign of Joseph Vissarionovich was also under the yoke of a shallow! wink
        3. passerby5
          passerby5 13 October 2017 14: 36
          0
          and also a film about the beginning of the reckoning fornication in the vast expanses of Ineta ... I don’t remember the authors, well, the academics studied the result too: they write in Latin a hundred years from the birth of Christ. and so there it’s like they shorten it and write it from IX and then the tricks with this point between the letters and it turns out that they attributed it for 1000 years and we live now in 1017. here it is .... I had a hypothesis to watch on the video)))
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 14 October 2017 02: 53
            0
            It could be a lunar calendar.
      3. Kenxnumx
        Kenxnumx 12 October 2017 17: 32
        0
        And what kind of historians have told you about this. Fomenko with Bushkov?
        1. Rurikovich
          Rurikovich 12 October 2017 18: 24
          +2
          Quote: Ken71
          And what kind of historians have told you about this. Fomenko with Bushkov

          Suggest others, but not those who will continue to sing this nonsense about yoke and passionarity hi
          1. Kenxnumx
            Kenxnumx 12 October 2017 18: 56
            0
            Apparently you and these are enough.
            1. Rurikovich
              Rurikovich 12 October 2017 19: 33
              +5
              Quote: Ken71
              Apparently you and these are enough.

              It’s not enough for me that officialdom cannot explain in any way the mass construction of churches and churches in Russia conquered by foreigners during the “yoke” period what request The population is peeling off sticky, its own faith is being planted .... But on the contrary, we’ll take only a tenth of it, the rest is for your life, build, develop, multiply .... Just like today fellow So today only 13-16% of the income is being torn. Yoke? nooo, "Igo" was then when only 10% took fool hi
              1. Kenxnumx
                Kenxnumx 12 October 2017 20: 09
                +2
                It was a yoke and not an occupation. They also delegated the collection of tribute to the local. Very wise. Stable income with minimal costs.
                1. Rurikovich
                  Rurikovich 13 October 2017 07: 57
                  +2
                  Quote: Ken71
                  It was a yoke and not an occupation.

                  Yeah sho you say belay The occupation and the yoke are different things ??? what The Germans in the 41st attacked. Captured - this is occupation, and the Mongols in which they attacked and captured - this is the "yoke" laughing Would you listen to yourself wink
                  If the same Germans installed such a heavy “yoke” as that of the Mongols in the 41st, it is not known how history would have turned lol
                  1. Ulan
                    Ulan 13 October 2017 17: 23
                    +2
                    The Mongols did not live in the captured Russian cities. After the raid, they went into the steppe and roamed there.
                    It’s strange not to notice such a difference.
                    1. Rurikovich
                      Rurikovich 13 October 2017 18: 51
                      +3
                      Quote: Ulan
                      The Mongols did not live in the captured Russian cities. After the raid, they went into the steppe and roamed there.

                      laughing
                      In the summer they came, they captured, in the winter a couple of thousand kilometers were piled south in the steppe, in the spring they came back to conquer wassatAnd so for 400 years .... winked Maybe the Germans had to do so in 41-45 years. - For the winter to dump in a warmer winter climate in Germany? winkYou look, and now we would live in Great Germany. Yes, the population does not steal or destroy, - this population would pay 10% of the crop and laughing
                      Itself is not funny from such "evidence" of officialdom? wink hi
                      1. Ulan
                        Ulan 13 October 2017 19: 35
                        +1
                        You remind folk wisdom - laughter for no reason, a sign ...? You did NOT provide any evidence at all to refute the fact, which everyone knows. THE MONGOLS DID NOT LIVE IN RUSSIAN SETTLEMENTS.
                        Germans, for some reason dragged.
                        Is this your way of having a discussion.? Why did the Romans miss or African tribes?
                        You invent some “facts” of your own and try to attribute them to your opponent, as for - “In the summer they came, they captured, in the winter they dumped a couple of thousand kilometers south in the steppe, in the spring they came back to conquer” .... Where are you from I saw these "thousands of kilometers"? and where is it in officialdom ?. This is purely your personal invention.
                        And all your "evidence" is such. Take and pervert what the opponent said and hehe hee and haha.
                        Ugly reception. Unworthy. Or we are having a serious conversation or it makes no sense to speak in this vein. And you behave this way in the absence of serious counterarguments.
      4. Ulan
        Ulan 13 October 2017 17: 46
        +1
        And does someone compare modern Mongols with those from the Middle Ages? It can be at best a small part, distant relatives who inherited their name.
        The Mongols are the common name of many tribes - Keraits, Merkits, etc. which are already listed here.
        The Goths, Huns, too, disappeared somewhere, but no one questions their existence and their conquests, comparable to the conquests of Genghis Khan.
        1. Spnsr
          Spnsr 19 October 2017 01: 21
          0
          Quote: Ulan
          And does someone compare modern Mongols with those from the Middle Ages? It can be at best a small part, distant relatives who inherited their name.
          The Mongols are the common name of many tribes - Keraits, Merkits, etc. which are already listed here.
          The Goths, Huns, too, disappeared somewhere, but no one questions their existence and their conquests, comparable to the conquests of Genghis Khan.

          Well, yes, as 40000000 Russians turned into ukrov, so the Scythians turned into guns of the ready Slavs of Russians, some of whom have now become Ukrainians, remaining in the rest of Europe! if you do not mind that the Poles are Slavs, Slovaks are Slovaks, Serbs are blood from Russian blood, Bulgarians are Slavs ....
      5. The comment was deleted.
        1. The comment was deleted.
    2. DV69
      DV69 12 October 2017 17: 52
      +5
      Quote: Uncle Vanya Susanin
      the Mongols raided Russia not from the territory of modern Mongolia, IMHO - vicious pseudoscientific nonsense

      I propose to look at this statement from a different angle.
      The so-called "Tatar-Mongolian" state was created by Chigiskhan. I hope you know this, Raids on Russia began his son Batu (aka Batu Khan).
      And now the question is, how did a huge state "migrate" from the Far East to actually the center of Europe in less than 25 years? Together with women, old people and children, with clockwork, pack and fighting horses, oxen, or whatever was in the Tatar carts harnessed. And the note did this with battles, in the complete absence of support from the local (enslaved) population, supply and repair bases.
      And then she suddenly stopped at the western borders of Russia, due to (according to the official version) fear of leaving freedom-loving Slavs behind. What is the rear of the nomads?
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 12 October 2017 18: 37
        +7
        Quote: DV69
        And now the question is, how did a huge state "migrate" from the Far East to actually the center of Europe in less than 25 years? Together with women, old people and children, with clockwork, pack and fighting horses, oxen, or whatever was in the Tatar carts harnessed. And the note did this with battles, in the complete absence of support from the local (enslaved) population, supply and repair bases.
        And then she suddenly stopped at the western borders of Russia, due to (according to the official version) fear of leaving freedom-loving Slavs behind. What is the rear of the nomads?

        Ohhh, darago, so you beat the sub-official good drinks
        I’ll ask one more question to which the official bodies cannot specifically give an answer!
        According to the official history of the Mongol-Tatars, Batu reached the Adriatic Sea, crushing the territories where today's Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania and the countries of the former Yugoslavia are located. And now the specific question is whether facts have been preserved in these territories that indicate precisely that they were conquered by the Mongol-Tatars. The answer is NO! But conquest is violence, plunder, and therefore dilution of indigenous peoples by aliens. Genetics deny this (at least I have not heard of such a statement) FOR THAT is the territory of the distribution of the Russian (Slavic) language. From time to time, of course, the native language has changed, but the Slavs of Eastern and Southeastern Europe understand Russian. ABOUT WHICH MONGOL TATARS A SPEECH IS GOING !!!! The conquest completely coincides with the spread of the Russian language !!! How, Karl ??? And my official gagging about the Mongol-Tatars fool laughing
        Au, champions of the official history of the "Mongol-Tatars", answer the question - why so ??? !!! fellow
        PS. Just do not weave, about the fact that the conquered peoples of Russia did this. Such peoples would quickly revolt in the distance and re-cut their “steamers,” and with the newly captured would rise uprising away from the supposedly Horde. hi
        1. DV69
          DV69 12 October 2017 18: 46
          +2
          Quote: Rurikovich
          Ohhh, darago, so you beat the sub-official

          As far as possible, Dear.
        2. Irokez
          Irokez 12 October 2017 20: 34
          +3
          Quote: Rurikovich
          ABOUT WHICH MONGOL TATARS A SPEECH IS GOING !!!! The conquest completely coincides with the spread of the Russian language !!!

          What are you talking about my friend. What is the distribution of the Russian language. Or did you mean Slavic which is akin to Sanskrit and both of which are descendants of the older Slavic or Sanskrit language?
          Of course, here too, a substitution occurred because Eurohistorians planted a cult of the Indo-European language from India to Europe and calculated that there is much in common in the Euro-language and Sanskrit, which means that there was once a language common to all the peoples of Eurasia.
          And the substitution is that the “Old Slavonic” or “Sanskrit” is not officially mentioned in any way, which is actually the same thing, but it was cunningly called “Indo-European”. But we are not stupid people, and we understand that all Indo-European languages ​​are our "Ancient Slavic" on which we still speak and even swear, but the language has naturally changed a lot.
          Etruscan inscriptions in Italy are readable only in Slavic, and the Europeans beat with a heel in the chest: - "Etruscan is not readable." And it was the Pole who could begin to read them, for the Slav is like us.
          So, it can be said with confidence that the Mongol-Tatar Igo did not carry the language with it to the occupied countries. How can you bring what was so.
          But it was necessary to drive the roots of the Slavs into dugouts, caves and trees, creating wild and primitive people out of them, and they came up with the Tatar-Mongol, holding all these Aborigines in check. By the way, the Mongols somehow don’t even know much that they have such a great history and for some reason the Tatars resist to recognize such a past. Where is the documentation in the Tatar or Mongolian language, where is this archive or fragments thereof in the vast and great.
          But no, the Tatar-Mongolian Igo is very consonant with the Tartar-Mogul Yoke, and if you carefully think over and translate the fame, we get the Great Tartar Order, and this is the Great Tartary - the Empire was once divided throughout Eurasia. And the language was the main Slavic, and the Vedic culture (this is not a religion, but a worldview about the structure of the world). That is, these are some Aryans who have a world understanding of the world and even the universe, and who adhered to these views were called like Aryans (this is one of the versions about the Aryans).
          Well, before that there was Hyperborea, but that's another story (although it’s more correct to say not a story like I FROM THE TORAH, but simply BE.)
          1. Rurikovich
            Rurikovich 12 October 2017 21: 03
            +2
            Quote: Irokez
            What are you talking about my friend. What is the distribution of the Russian language. Or did you mean Slavic which is akin to Sanskrit and both of which are descendants of the older Slavic or Sanskrit language?

            Yes, let the Slavic - the essence of this does not change, that the MONGO-TATAR IGO is a myth.
            And so I do not argue with you request
            And about the "Etruscan is not readable" laughing generally agree 100% yes Everything is read if prejudices are discarded.
          2. venaya
            venaya 12 October 2017 21: 53
            +3
            Quote: Irokez
            Here, a substitution occurred because Eurohistorians planted a cult of the Indo-European language from India to Europe and calculated that there is much in common in the Euro-language and Sanskrit, which means that there was once a language common to all the peoples of Eurasia.
            And the substitution is that the “Old Slavonic” or “Sanskrit” is not officially mentioned in any way, which is actually the same thing, but it was cunningly called “Indo-European”. But we are not stupid people, and we understand that all Indo-European languages ​​are our "Ancient Slavic" on which we still speak and even swear, but the language has naturally changed a lot.
            Etruscan inscriptions in Italy are readable only in Slavonic ..

            I almost completely agree with you. with the exception of an element such as the terminology used. See: the terms "Europe", "Slavs", "Indo-European language", "Ancient Slavic language" - all could be born only in the 16th century. Themselves "Etruscan" called themselves Slovenes (races), that is, if people caught in their native Slovenian language, then more precisely, this language is called Slovenian. The meaning of the word "ind" is not completely clear, and "Europe" is either the west (in Latin), then the east (in the rest, Aramaic), and then it was introduced from the 16th century. These cranks are “historians” and so confuse everything so that no one can figure out anything, so if we are more accurate in terms, it will be easier to explain the mass of existing substitutions of many concepts. I believe that if you throw out all these alien words from your vocabulary, then the essence of many substitutions of unfortunate “historians” will become more clear. This is my suggestion and I think that your post would be more accurate when using native Russians (and not by newspeak - Slavic) words.
        3. BecmepH
          BecmepH 13 October 2017 10: 47
          0
          ABOUT WHICH MONGOL TATARS A SPEECH IS GOING !!!!
          There were, they were. These were the legionnaires. Our territories were large. Their strengths were not enough to protect the land. So we hired the Tatar-Mongols to guard our lands. And you, yoke, yoke ... Joke, if that. And then gobble up with giblets))))
          1. Spnsr
            Spnsr 13 October 2017 12: 15
            +1
            Quote: BecmepH
            There were, they were. These were the legionnaires. Our territories were large. Their strengths were not enough to protect the land. So we hired the Tatar-Mongols to guard our lands

            Or it could be that tithe of blood that was collected from the entire population and with which the army was formed and which was later called the Cossacks, and, permissible by other peoples of the former Russian Empire, the USSR!
        4. Ulan
          Ulan 13 October 2017 17: 26
          +1
          You don’t know that the Mongols left Europe? What did they stop the campaign and what events happened?
          What material trace could they leave there after a short raid?
          1. Rurikovich
            Rurikovich 13 October 2017 18: 58
            +2
            Quote: Ulan
            What material trace could they leave there after a short raid?

            And in Russia, what trace did they leave ?????? For 4 centuries, the population should have mixed more than half with the genotype of the locality they came from. Toka official says Genghis Khan banned incest laughing You yourself even believe in such an explanation, that would be for 4 eyelids, with no one, and this is subject to complete domination laughing With any seizure, the imposition of one’s order and religion takes place. life, etc. But no, the Russians were allowed to leave everything, even new churches were built and Orthodoxy developed wink Strange yoke what
            I personally don’t believe in him. This is common sense and logic. And what you believe - your business hi
            1. Ulan
              Ulan 13 October 2017 19: 40
              +2
              Why did they have to mix? They explained to you a hundred times, and you continue to be nonsense.
              The Mongols behaved this way in ALL the conquered lands, tolerance was noted by all European authors. The same Plan Carpini.
              Again, I believe, I do not believe. Do you have more solid evidence?
              But to you a fact- Tokhtamysh after the capture of Moscow, remained in it? No.
              And you - I believe, I do not believe. In this vein, it is not interesting to talk. I could also answer, I do not believe. But I do not want to go down to this level and I will not.
              Either provide strong evidence of your words, or it is not interesting to me. It is interesting to talk to knowledgeable people, and not to those who just want to chat.
      2. Ulan
        Ulan 13 October 2017 17: 28
        +1
        The state did not move anywhere. There were no bulky convoys especially with women, old people and children and could not be with the army.
    3. fzr1000
      fzr1000 12 October 2017 17: 56
      0
      On the Kulikovo Field, one “advanced” army defeated another. How to explain it?
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 12 October 2017 18: 47
        +3
        Quote: fzr1000
        On the Kulikovo Field, one “advanced” army defeated another. How to explain it?

        So these are still trifles - after the ever-memorable Battle of Kulikovo, the “yoke” continued for another 100 years! laughing Marasmus fool
        1. andj61
          andj61 13 October 2017 11: 20
          +1
          Quote: Rurikovich
          Quote: fzr1000
          On the Kulikovo Field, one “advanced” army defeated another. How to explain it?

          So these are still trifles - after the ever-memorable Battle of Kulikovo, the “yoke” continued for another 100 years! laughing Marasmus fool

          Yes, there is a showdown within one country. Momai rebelled against Tokhtamysh, Tokhtamysh went to the Volga region to collect an army, and Dmitry opposed the usurper on the side of the legitimate king! bully
          True, after the victory over Mamaia, Dmitry also refused to pay the tribute (taxes!) To the legal king, for which Tokhtamysh burned Moscow in 1382.
        2. Ulan
          Ulan 13 October 2017 17: 51
          +1
          Amazing “knowledge” of history. That is, are you sure that Dm.Donskoy defeated the whole horde? And not only a part of it subordinate to the beclarbek Mamay?
          And the fact that the troops subordinate to Tokhtamysh remained untouched, you certainly do not know.
          They burned Moscow afterwards.
      2. Spnsr
        Spnsr 13 October 2017 12: 30
        +1
        Quote: fzr1000
        On the Kulikovo Field, one “advanced” army defeated another. How to explain it?

        Or is this another round of confrontation between east and west, a hundred years after Nevsky and Baty stopped the expansion of the west to the east!?!
      3. Ulan
        Ulan 13 October 2017 17: 52
        +1
        What is the question? Why do not you have such a question about the battle of Grunwald, where there were also two advanced armies?
    4. siberalt
      siberalt 12 October 2017 19: 05
      +5
      For 300 years, the Mongolian boys of Genghis Khan were circumcised so that they would not even leave a trace in Russia, and literate Mongols, for this, cut off their tongues and cut off their fingers! laughing
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 12 October 2017 19: 25
        +3
        Quote: siberalt
        For 300 years, the Mongolian boys of Genghis Khan were circumcised so that they would not even leave a trace in Russia, and literate Mongols, for this, cut off their tongues and cut off their fingers! laughing

        good Just look, so that these thoughts do not fall on the pages of textbooks in an attempt to officialdom explain the absence of any connection with today's Mongols, who did not hear anything about any Genghis Khan and their conquest of the world laughing
        1. Ulan
          Ulan 13 October 2017 17: 56
          +1
          Did not hear? That is, a giant monument to Genghis Khan, in the current Mongolia put Martians?
          Have you heard anything about Khan Kuchuk, who was Genghiside?
          1. Rurikovich
            Rurikovich 13 October 2017 19: 07
            +1
            Quote: Ulan
            have you heard? That is, a giant monument to Genghis Khan, in the current Mongolia put Martians?

            When did they post him and on what basis? Not recently, and based on the official version wink Go Mongols are pleasantly surprised that even once they owned the world laughing
            I am laughing lol
            1. Ulan
              Ulan 13 October 2017 19: 44
              +1
              Me too. The question was that the modern Mongols did not hear about Genghis Khan. It turns out they heard. Laugh further. But laughter is not proof, but protection, when there is nothing to answer.
              Keep laughing.
              It would be very interesting to see if historians in their discussions did not cite facts and laughed in turn. How far, then historical science would have stepped. lol
              1. Rurikovich
                Rurikovich 13 October 2017 20: 46
                0
                Quote: Ulan
                It would be very interesting to see if historians in their discussions did not cite facts and laugh in turn.

                Well, what do they peck at mathematicians when they bring their arguments and a priori refuse even to verify their evidence. Prove that they are wrong and business wink
                And about how historians defend their opinions, as an alternative, see the docfilm of “The Revelation of the Pyramids”. the French took off. So to broaden your horizons hi
    5. Dimachrus
      Dimachrus 12 October 2017 19: 36
      +1
      But at the same time - do not tell me when writing appeared among the Mongols?
      ..... the Mongols raided Russia not from the territory of modern Mongolia
      And from what territory were the raids made?
      And is there evidence of the "advanced army" of the Mongols? Its further development? And where did all this power go ??? And what interested our steppe pastoralists in our land ???
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 12 October 2017 19: 50
        +2
        Quote: Dimachrus
        And what interested our steppe pastoralists in our land

        Gumilyov gives an answer to this question in the form of “passionarity” invented by him - they just wanted to and they captured yes This "passionarity" is called upon by the official to explain things that cannot be explained by logical explanations and common sense yes
        like this: they wanted, they came, they conquered, they walked up and disappeared, the passionarity weathered wassat
      2. Ulan
        Ulan 13 October 2017 18: 01
        +2
        I will ask you questions too. Where did the gains of the Roman Empire go? Where did the conquests of Alexander of Macedon go? Where did his empire go?
        Is this miserable Macedonia his empire?
        But how could they defeat gigantic Persia and reach India?
        But for some reason you believe in it.
        And where did the Scythians go? Their empire was also huge.
        From the Mongols, even the present Mongolia has remained, but from the Scythians ?.
        And where did the Polovtsy-Kumans go? And where did the Khazars go, but Byzantium? What remains of Byzantium?
        And here are the Goths and their vast empire. Where are the artifacts, where are the cities, where is the written language?
        But the Huns, also no cities, no artifacts, no writing.
        But no one questions their existence and their campaigns.
        1. Rurikovich
          Rurikovich 13 October 2017 19: 17
          +1
          Quote: Ulan
          But no one questions their existence and their campaigns.

          Personally, I expose belay I have my own opinion in accordance with my thoughts yes And therefore, I do not argue with you, but set out my vision. Do you still believe that Schliemann Troy discovered? I do not, because Schliemann was an ordinary rogue and made loot on "archaeological" discoveries.
          You know that Egypt was "discovered" by the French under Napoleon. Before that, the Egyptians themselves did not know that they were 5000 years old. laughing . And where according to the Bible was the promised land you know? According to the Bible in Palestine. But the descriptions in the Bible are VERY different from the real Palestine (I re-read it myself about five times). So either the Bible is lying (and the Bible cannot lie by definition belay ) or historians lie. I believe more in the lies of historians, for the Bible was written before yes This is just a little of my preference. repeat

          And I’ll advise you to read less officialdom, and look more at other versions as well - maybe there is REALLY true among them, and not the one that you are being brought in hi
          Then answer your questions that you asked me smile
          1. Ulan
            Ulan 13 October 2017 19: 49
            +1
            That is, you have no answers. Perfectly. I don’t know about Troy; many historians doubt that Schliemann dug out Troy.
            The French did not “discover” Egypt; it existed before them.
            You are apparently the only one who does not know that those "Egyptians" (Mamelukes) who fought with Napoleon have nothing to do with Egypt from the time of the Pharaohs.
            These are the conquerors who came to this land much later.
            I am ashamed not to know this. However, you are not alone, Mr. Zyuganov is in solidarity with you, you also do not know that the current Egyptians have nothing to do with the pyramids and sphinxes.
            1. Rurikovich
              Rurikovich 13 October 2017 20: 42
              +1
              Quote: Ulan
              The French did not “discover” Egypt; it existed before them.

              Even Egyptologists themselves admit that all dynasties and their years of rule are based on conjectures without evidence. And the technology for building the pyramids in Giza does not correspond to the technology of the ancient Egyptians, and therefore they are far-fetched, but you know that these are ONLY tombs, as historians say so?
              Quote: Ulan
              The French did not “discover” Egypt; it existed before them.

              The French informed the Egyptians that they were ancient laughing The Egyptians themselves did not know wink
              Quote: Ulan
              I don’t know about Troy; many historians doubt that Schliemann dug out Troy.

              But officially Troy. What prevents historians from recognizing that this is not so? Bone?
              1. the lord
                the lord 14 October 2017 08: 06
                0
                Do not smack nonsense about the French. With Egypt, a lot of information is connected even from the Hellenes. Although the facts of greater antiquity, the French could again discover the French. This sometimes happens when rabid fanatics align the achievements of science with their religious teachings. And then in enlightened times, people again decipher the murals and manuscripts. And the Egyptians from the time of Napoleon could well not know about the antiquity of their country. because they were Arabs, not Egyptians. And the Copts could also know this because they were already only the descendants of the ancient Egyptians. devoid of past greatness and glory
                Regarding Troy and Shlimanak, official science only officially assumes that it is Troy. By the simple understanding that it would hardly have been possible to be near two large cities, the enmity of one of them would have necessarily destroyed. The level of consumption in those days could not allow them to be so close. Therefore, according to common sense, this is most likely Troy. But there is no clear evidence of this.
                About Palestine and its descriptions in the bible is unclear. Do you mean describing it as land in which "milk and honey"? Duck in the same bible all the stories of the Canaanite period all the time begin with that. that the Jews are either under the yoke of the Phoenicians, or are starving, or a terrible pestilence overtakes them. So-so promised land, even according to the stories of the Jews themselves. I see no contradictions
            2. Rurikovich
              Rurikovich 13 October 2017 22: 30
              +1
              Quote: Ulan
              I am ashamed not to know this. However, you are not alone, Mr. Zyuganov is in solidarity with you, you also do not know that the current Egyptians have nothing to do with the pyramids and sphinxes.

              And what, Boris, didn’t answer about the Bible? Or do historians even have no consensus? There were no disasters in 2000 lands in those lands, so that the climate would change wink
    6. Spnsr
      Spnsr 12 October 2017 20: 40
      +2
      Quote: Uncle Vanya Susanin
      the Mongols had an advanced army, for that time, and the best tactics of using light cavalry

      The only question is whether they were the Mongols who are called the Mongols now, or are they still those who are now called Cossacks and who are still at the beginning of the last century, and in the middle they terrified the enemy!
      But for one reason or another thrown into the margins of history!
  8. pupsik
    pupsik 12 October 2017 16: 32
    +3
    Annoying such pseudo-historians, and trivial Natsik.
    1. The Great Wall of China was built, but not a single large stone city in Russia existed until the 10th century. Is funny Highly.
    2. Hitler was also upset that German tribes lived in dugouts in the woods, while the ancient Romans already created giant stone cities. And where are the Italians now, and who are the Germans now? And these are 2 big differences.

    So what, that the Slavs lived in the woods, so what is it that prevents normal healing? (This didn’t stop the Germans)
    1. venaya
      venaya 12 October 2017 17: 41
      +8
      Quote: pupsik
      .. trivial Natsik

      "They built the Great Wall of China, but not a single large stone city in Russia existed until the 10th century. Is funny“- That's really“ funny. ”Think for yourself, with your own head: only God forbid they began to build the Great Wall of China in the 2nd century, and before that they built them ... a bunch. For example, in 1941, near Kiev, on The Stalin’s lines were stopped for a long time by the Nazis, only this line itself rested on an older, same Chinese wall. And how many of them were built on Ancient, large Doryurik Rus? Only this wall is at least 1300 years older than the current Chinese in China, not counting many others. So they almost all self-destructed, in Moscow they really destroyed it, it seems that only Simonovsky shaft remained. The concept of “Germans" or "Italians" is striking. Is it when they were born? Italy in 1861, "Nemetchina "(on the site of Vagriya, Varyazhskaya Rus, Porussia, etc.) - in 1871, it is noteworthy that both of their capitals also have Russian roots, even linguistically. The current" Italians "appeared on the Apennines in the 12th century, and in your opinion, the "Germans", so there lived 5 - 7 thousand for years, only for some reason they spoke and wrote Russian, and they began to Germanize them under Martin Luther (90th century), having imposed a foreign (Turkic) language, a couple of new religions (Catholicism, Protestantism) plus a stupid inferior alphabet. And the amazing thing is that in Pomerania 1% of ethnic ethnic groups of the genus "R1aXNUMX" are more than anywhere else. So figure it out - who are the "Germans" when and where did they all come from. So what about Nazism so in “historical science” is just over the edge, constantly some strange “nations” appear. It’s just worth dealing with this, it’s about Nazism and who the Nazis really are, maybe they are the ones who create these very nations. Think about it.
    2. DV69
      DV69 12 October 2017 18: 02
      +8
      Quote: pupsik
      They built the Great Wall of China, but not a single large stone city in Russia existed until the 10th century. Is funny Highly.

      Lying. The Scandinavians called Russia Hradarica, due to the fact that as early as 7 in AD in Russia there were more than 100 cities, which exceeded the total number of cities in Europe.
      It was built from wood due to the presence of a large amount of forest and its cheapness.
  9. AleBors
    AleBors 12 October 2017 16: 33
    +1
    The last line of the article reflects the main idea ..
    An unpleasant association arises in the neighbors ... They, too, are all "great" ones there ...
  10. Varyag77
    Varyag77 12 October 2017 16: 33
    +1
    Quote: Ken71
    But I never argue. And what's more, there are different trends in official history. But anyone who is trying to say something new is based on a specific document and data from related studies. And this one has something like that. The Russians built a tower ....

    By the way, about the tower .. there’s a pretty fierce draw by the ears. No questions. But let's say his look at the hunt for mammoths sounds very believable. And in my opinion he is absolutely right here. And the funny thing is that it lies on the surface, but no one pays attention to such obvious stupidity
  11. Varyag77
    Varyag77 12 October 2017 16: 36
    +2
    Quote: Uncle Vanya Susanin
    “Alexander Nevsky with his retinue defeated the best army in the world - professional Teutonic knights. And what did we have at that time? The Mongol-Tatar yoke.” The Tatars then rode to us on their canine-footed horses, and we again "So we pay tribute? Well, isn't it funny?" - it’s not funny at all, the Mongols had an advanced army, for that time, and the best tactics of using light cavalry !!! "Third: not a single horse will get from here to here or from here to there. Any horse knows that. And there are a huge number of such inconsistencies." - he comes up with these inconsistencies, the Mongols raided Russia not from the territory of modern Mongolia, IMHO - vicious pseudoscientific nonsense, and an attempt to speculate on historical topics !!!

    And where did the Mongols raid? Especially the first, under the leadership of Uncle Batu? Just the topic of the Mongol Tatars is really so awkward, at least in its current form, that there are much more questions than sane answers
    1. Thunderbolt
      Thunderbolt 12 October 2017 17: 12
      +1
      Quote: Varyag77
      And where did the Mongols raid? Especially the first, under the leadership of Uncle Batu?

      So they drove the Polovtsy and occupied their steppes. Find the "Polovtsian steppes" and you will be happy. Even like this: subjugated all the lands south of the Russian principalities.
      1. DV69
        DV69 12 October 2017 18: 04
        +1
        Quote: Thunderbolt
        So they drove the Polovtsy and occupied their steppes

        And how did they get into the steppes from Mongolia?
        1. Thunderbolt
          Thunderbolt 12 October 2017 18: 28
          +2
          After the conquest of China and Middle Asia, they also fell upon Russia. They reached the lands of modern Czechia (according to documents), so there is nothing strange about this.
          1. DV69
            DV69 12 October 2017 18: 31
            +2
            Quote: Thunderbolt
            After the conquest of China and Middle Asia, they also fell upon Russia. They reached the lands of modern Czechia (according to documents), so there is nothing strange about this.

            Over what period of time has all this happened? In the complete absence of expensive and other infrastructure.
            1. Thunderbolt
              Thunderbolt 13 October 2017 00: 02
              0
              Quote: DV69
              Over what period of time has all this happened? In the complete absence of expensive and other infrastructure.

              Historians know this well for what. The fact is that their campaigns left traces in the annals of Europeans, Arabs, and especially Chinese. Here, by comparing data from different (and independent) sources, a harmonious picture emerges. But the thing is that you Do not trust official science. true science builds its version of the past on material artifacts and makes hypotheses from them. Yes, I don’t argue, over time new details and facts are discovered and historical versions are corrected. But I would not say that it is very significant. As a rule main base always remains unchanged.And on, what does this person leaning in pseudo-Slavic clothes lean against the backdrop of pseudo-Slavic household items? All the evidence of the millennia-old history of the Great Ruses was destroyed by the evil "German scientists" and he can only suck out the tales about TYARYAMA in which they livedlol I will answer your simple question:
              The nomadic peoples of the steppe were very mobile, perpetual movement was their way of life. Their equestrian army moved even faster in a military campaign. Faster, much faster than their opponents, it moved. And this was the basis of their military art not only directly on the battlefield (tactics), but also during accelerated marches (the so-called daytime transitions between nights) (part of the strategy). And how fast could these marches give you an idea here are such interesting facts:
              Vyacheslav Dolbe

              Horses of steppe breeds: physical characteristics, features, black fish and feed.
              According to historical sources and the latest data.

              (A textbook compilation of documentary evidence)

              ........ Medieval authors more or less recorded only a qualitative picture. But to understand the specifics of the existence of the nomadic horse army, accurate quantitative data are also required, such as the daily mileage of horses, speed, and the influence of weather conditions in winter. Such data can only be contained in observations and experimental studies of the XNUMXth — XNUMXth centuries,
              Here are brief descriptions of the existing native breeds of horses of interest to us according to the book [Horse breeding] and other sources. From the descriptions selected data of interest to us. In parentheses is the height at the withers, average measurements.

              Breeds of horses of the steppe group

              Mongolian (127 cm) [Horse breeding. P.148] The smallest among the steppe breeds. The weight of mares is 250-300 kg. It is well suited for the use of low-water pastures and shade-litter. With small growth, it is less suitable for harnessing, except, perhaps, for use in a double harness.
              They are characterized by endurance while riding; [b] they are free for many days to pass 70-80 km per day.

              Mongolian horses influenced horse breeding in Eastern Siberia, Altai and Kazakhstan; they are found in the Buryat Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic and in the Chita region.
              Buryat (Transbaikal) (130-133 cm) [Horse breeding. Page 150] [TSB] close to Mongolian in origin. The smallest horse of Siberia, has a massive physique. Live weight of 300-350 kg. Well adapted to year-round herd keeping on sparse grass in a sharply continental climate.
              The horses of South Kazakhstan, which is in contact with the republics of Central Asia, have long been mixed with the eastern breeds of riding horses - Karabair, Akhal-Teke and some others. In Western Kazakhstan, there is a type of Kazakh horse called "jabe", especially capable of fattening. <...>

              A horse capable of withstanding the most severe winter frosts and prolonged periods of malnutrition. <...> extremely well adapted to heat, drought in summer and ice, snowstorms and frost in winter <...>

              Between the Aral and Caspian seas, the so-called Adaev horse is widespread, which is the result of the impact of Turkmen (Iomud) horses on the Kazakh breed.

              Under the saddle and pack, the Kazakh horse is extremely hardy and tireless, able to walk a day, eating only pasture food, 80-90 km. Not having great agility at short distances, she shows outstanding results in long-distance runs. So, in 1948, several Adaev horses under riders per day passed 298 km. Kazakh horses in a pair and triple harness can take 4,5-5 hours. run 60-70 km. In 1948, a pair of Kazakh geldings in a harness passed in a day 292 km, and they were not savvy, which indicates the strength of the hooves of steppe horses.
              1. DV69
                DV69 13 October 2017 09: 51
                +1
                Quote: Thunderbolt
                The nomadic peoples of the steppe were very mobile, perpetual movement was their way of life.

                Well yes. Perpetual motion. How many days in a row do you think can walk 70 km? What about the rider? And with the wagon train, in which draft animals are harnessed, and which carries families?
                And where will the horses eat in the winter, when they have snow on their chests?
                And forests on the way, and rivers.
                Do not simplify.
                1. Thunderbolt
                  Thunderbolt 13 October 2017 11: 51
                  0
                  Quote: DV69
                  How many days in a row do you think can walk 70 km?

                  They took herds not infinitely long and on a military campaign). It’s ridiculously simple about the river, go down a little from your "Golden Horsun" and open at least the Red Army Statutes, there are also about providing forage on marches and you’ll learn about the order of changing the leading vanguards when overcoming the virgin snow. In general, if you were more or less interested in real history, you wouldn’t ask such children's questions, because 1.) Nomads did not come from the war as flat as a table, and the terrain and climatic conditions were severe and varied.
                  2.) There is nothing strange in winter military campaigns and in the annals, if you can do this with a specialist, you can dig up a mountain of references that were cut in Russia in the winter. Answers to all your questions are in my passage, but you don’t need to. This will destroy your theory that the "Great Rus" nightmares Eurasia at that time, and not compact nomadic peoples from the steppes found.)))
                  1. Spnsr
                    Spnsr 13 October 2017 12: 41
                    +1
                    Quote: Thunderbolt
                    at least open the Charter of the Red Army, there is also information about overcoming water barriers and about providing forage on marches and about the procedure for changing the leading vanguards in overcoming virgin snow.

                    So leave this to those who made up the Red Army's mounted army, and do not drag the Mongols who were still absent here during the Red Army! The Mongols who were called the Mongols in the third dec, the last years of the last century !!!
                    1. Thunderbolt
                      Thunderbolt 13 October 2017 13: 28
                      0
                      So it’s not the Red Army that matters, but the very foundations of the cavalry business, which has changed only in details over so many centuries, but the principles are the same as hundreds of years ago.
                      Quote: SpnSr
                      The Mongols who were called the Mongols in the third dec, the last years of the last century !!!
                      Then let's first the mention of the "Mongols" dated to the 3rd decade of the 20th century.)))
                      1. Ulan
                        Ulan 13 October 2017 18: 17
                        +2
                        You don’t prove anything to them. They have very superficial knowledge at the level of gossip, for example, they constantly say that the Mongols dragged along huge clumsy carts with mothers, nannies, babies, harems, etc.
                        and where did they get this nonsense, they are silent like a fish on ice.
                      2. Spnsr
                        Spnsr 18 October 2017 22: 40
                        0
                        Quote: Thunderbolt
                        So it’s not the Red Army that matters, but the very foundations of the cavalry business, which has changed only in details over so many centuries, but the principles are the same as hundreds of years ago.
                        Quote: SpnSr
                        The Mongols who were called the Mongols in the third dec, the last years of the last century !!!
                        Then let's first the mention of the "Mongols" dated to the 3rd decade of the 20th century.)))

                        Well, if you think, then let's date all the Cossacks that terrified Berlin and Paris by the Mongols!
                        if anything!!!
                  2. DV69
                    DV69 13 October 2017 16: 02
                    +1
                    Quote: Thunderbolt
                    For an infinitely long time and on a military campaign, they took not herds, but herds).

                    And then they delivered their families by air from the territory of modern Mongolia to the South Russian steppes?
                    Did you sit in the saddle yourself? 70 km per day! Try half drive.
                    Quote: Thunderbolt
                    Quote: DV69
                    How many days in a row do you think can walk 70 km?

                    They took herds not infinitely long and on a military campaign). It’s ridiculously simple about the river, go down a little from your "Golden Horsun" and open at least the Red Army Statutes, there are also about providing forage on marches and you’ll learn about the order of changing the leading vanguards when overcoming the virgin snow. In general, if you were more or less interested in real history, you wouldn’t ask such children's questions, because 1.) Nomads did not come from the war as flat as a table, and the terrain and climatic conditions were severe and varied.
                    2.) There is nothing strange in winter military campaigns and in the annals, if you can do this with a specialist, you can dig up a mountain of references that were cut in Russia in the winter. Answers to all your questions are in my passage, but you don’t need to. This will destroy your theory that the "Great Rus" nightmares Eurasia at that time, and not compact nomadic peoples from the steppes found.)))

                    In what year did the charter of the Red Army write? What a supply of forage in the absence of roads. That you go down to earth!
                    Still refer to the charter of motorized rifle units of the Armed Forces of Russia.
                    1. Thunderbolt
                      Thunderbolt 13 October 2017 17: 14
                      0
                      Quote: DV69
                      And then they delivered their families by air from the territory of modern Mongolia to the South Russian steppes?

                      And why are you moving away from the topic? What does the family have to do with it, if we are talking about fighting efficiency, I clearly stated that they drove herds instead of children and wives! Mongolia is a HIGH BET, and I started from the startanuli. The capital of the Golden Horde and all this later.
                      Quote: DV69
                      Did you sit in the saddle yourself? 70 km per day! Try half drive.

                      Quote: DV69
                      In what year did the charter of the Red Army write? What a supply of forage in the absence of roads. That you go down to earth!

                      My grandfather was a groom and he always had his horses when I came for the summer. Therefore, I don’t see any reason for the rider to be afraid of a water barrier from the word AT ALL!))) Have you read “clever” thoughts in dubious little books and do not want to agree that there are no problems at all, but there is a lie sucked from the finger and empty libel on the official science!
                      So:
                      1.) I introduced you to the remote endurance of steppe horse breeds and their undemanding for forage.
                      2.) As for speed, it was not in vain that I asked you to study the Charter of the cavalry first, but no, you’re climbing right away))) But it’s very vain! That’s where you would learn about the norm of the forced march (100 km per day, but not more than 3 days). If the Red Army is not like, then here are the facts from the cavalry experience of the Russian Empire:
                      In pre-revolutionary Russia, runs were one of the most common types of army competitions. A remarkable example of the endurance of a local Amur horse was shown in the race of 1890, completed by the Cossack centurion Peshkov, who traveled 8862 km on the Serko gelding from Blagoveshchensk on the Amur to St. Petersburg in 193 days. In 1895, another Cossack officer on the run from St. Petersburg to Chita covered 7009 km in 112 days. In 1899, Cornet Aseev rode on horseback from Luben (Poltava province) to Paris. For the run, he used two mares, on which he rode alternately. On average, they covered about 88 km per day, and 110 km were covered in the last crossing directly in front of Paris.
                      1. DV69
                        DV69 13 October 2017 18: 46
                        +1
                        Bet in Mongolia. Good. How much is from Mongolia to the Kalki River? In kilometers
                      2. Spnsr
                        Spnsr 19 October 2017 00: 48
                        0
                        Quote: Thunderbolt
                        very vain! It was there that you would learn about the norm of the forced march (100 km per day, but no more than 3 days). If the Red Army is not like, then here are the facts from the cavalry experience of the Russian Empire:

                        so I say, very in vain!
                        leave Caesar Caesar!
                        that is, the basis of the Red Army and the cavalry corps (), to those who composed it! and do not attribute cattle breeders here !!!
                    2. Spnsr
                      Spnsr 19 October 2017 00: 31
                      0

                      my grandfather!
                      these troops still calmed the British influence in Central Asia!
                      they are, Turkestan in the Russian Empire, and the beginning of the Turkestan military district, and modern Central Asia!
                  3. Ulan
                    Ulan 13 October 2017 18: 09
                    +2
                    Mongolian tribes hunted in the winter, so they used to fight in the winter and in the Mongolian (Transbaikal steppes) winters were very severe.
                    Mongol tribes wandered and hunted there in the forest-steppe areas, and there the forest was not at all a wonder for them.
                    1. ver_
                      ver_ 24 October 2017 12: 24
                      0
                      ... they had neither iron nor blacksmiths, nor blacksmiths — only in the 17th century they learned * to work * with silver ..
                    2. Dzungar
                      Dzungar 24 October 2017 14: 41
                      +1
                      All is correct. My ancestors, Oirats, before they came to the arm of Genghis Khan 800 years ago, lived in the territory of the current Irkutsk region. Genghis Khan sent his eldest son, Jochi, to conquer the northern forest Mongols, just like the Oirats, but they themselves came to meet him, led by Kutuka beki. Because of what they used the special location of Genghis Khan. Western Mongolia was not crowded after the defeat of the Naimans by Genghis Khan, and he identified her as the place of residence of the Oirat. The sons of Kutuk beks became the son-in-law of Genghis Khan ...
                2. passerby5
                  passerby5 13 October 2017 15: 53
                  +2
                  really. it’s straight across the steppes. and how to approach our Bashkiria or there to the Volga-forest north of Samara more and more. after so many years of cutting down. there is only a riverbank. but as to Moscow, there’s a lot of swamps ... in a day they passed 280 .... if only for a week, you can believe ... and so ... they died on the second day)))
              2. ver_
                ver_ 13 October 2017 16: 37
                +1
                ... fresh tradition, but hard to believe ..
                1. Ulan
                  Ulan 13 October 2017 18: 20
                  +2
                  Faith, the concept is intangible. Do you have facts?
                  "I do not believe" is not proof.
    2. Spnsr
      Spnsr 12 October 2017 20: 53
      +1
      Quote: Varyag77
      where did the Mongols raid? Especially the first, under the leadership of Uncle Batu? Just the topic of the Mongol Tatars is really so awkward, at least in its current form, that there are much more questions than sane answers

      And the most interesting question! First, Nevsky stops the western conquerors, and then Batu invades the west simultaneously clearing Kiev. It painfully reminds a lot of the events of subsequent centuries in the confrontation between the territory now called Russia and the West!
      1. Ulan
        Ulan 13 October 2017 18: 21
        +2
        "Reminds" or there are facts. who prove it?
        1. Spnsr
          Spnsr 19 October 2017 00: 57
          0
          your question has literally the same question!
          May yours not panim, not Russian adnaka!
          and what, the official history does not give any evidence to such a fact of confrontation between east and west? or you intentionally do not observe them ???
          Quote: Ulan

          1
          Ulan October 13, 2017 18:21 ↑
          "Reminds" or there are facts. who prove it
  12. antivirus
    antivirus 12 October 2017 17: 06
    0
    But, for the sake of this or that concept, ideology, religion, all this was confiscated, corresponded, burned, destroyed ...
    FIRST, IT WAS NECESSARY TO KIND WITH ASIA - EVERYTHING SEEKED THE ROOTS OF CHINGHIZIDES, ASIA WEAKED AND BECOME SEARCHING (AND FINDING) RELATED IN EUROPE (VIKINGS? VARIANS? AND DR. POLISH)

    FOLLOWING WILL BE QINSIAN AND BRAHMAN?
  13. Varyag77
    Varyag77 12 October 2017 17: 26
    +3
    Quote: Thunderbolt
    Quote: Varyag77
    And where did the Mongols raid? Especially the first, under the leadership of Uncle Batu?

    So they drove the Polovtsy and occupied their steppes. Find the "Polovtsian steppes" and you will be happy. Even like this: subjugated all the lands south of the Russian principalities.

    Well no. Will not be. Where did they make their first trip? Here it is. The number of them? It seems that my uncle wrote about 300 thousand. I did not know that another uncle (from the west) would write that the warrior Genghis Khan had 3 horses. And 300 thousand. Turned into one million horses. Seriously? In the winter, did these deers spend a million horses? Without roads in a completely different climatic and geographical zone have they done so much? This tale is cooler than about Koshchei the Immortal
    1. Ulan
      Ulan 13 October 2017 18: 26
      +2
      Where do you get your knowledge from? From a school textbook 50 years ago?
      For so many years, have you bothered to read anything new?
      Well, for example, other "uncles" have written a lot of interesting things on this topic for a long time.
      And how do you imagine the march of the Mongol army?
      Is the endless column of Mongolian horsemen moving along one road?
      Respected. you at least read something else on the subject except the school textbook and find out. that for a long time historians haven’t been operating with this figure of 300 thousand, and fairy tales have not told for a long time that 150 thousand Mongol-Tatars and 100 thousand Russian troops converged on Kulikovo Field, and you spend too much time on these numbers.
  14. parusnik
    parusnik 12 October 2017 17: 27
    +1
    Clearly, historical fantasy .. Berger in Saxony comes out trying to get concrete, but in the end porcelain turned out ...
    1. venaya
      venaya 12 October 2017 18: 18
      +3
      Quote: parusnik
      Clear historical fantasy..

      Yes, it’s already further than what is being taught in the form of “history,” there’s simply nowhere to go further, it more and more resembles “Notes from a madhouse”, not otherwise!
  15. Varyag77
    Varyag77 12 October 2017 17: 33
    +1
    Quote: antivirus
    But, for the sake of this or that concept, ideology, religion, all this was confiscated, corresponded, burned, destroyed ...
    FIRST, IT WAS NECESSARY TO KIND WITH ASIA - EVERYTHING SEEKED THE ROOTS OF CHINGHIZIDES, ASIA WEAKED AND BECOME SEARCHING (AND FINDING) RELATED IN EUROPE (VIKINGS? VARIANS? AND DR. POLISH)

    FOLLOWING WILL BE QINSIAN AND BRAHMAN?

    A colleague, despite the immortal lines "Yes, we are Scythians, but we are Asians." We have no relation to Asia. We are 100% Europeans. By culture, by tradition, by art. If you want on the mentality and worldview. And I have a big doubt that we were looking for "kinship in Asia." The marriages of the great princes must be perceived as marriages, and nothing more. Dad cares about daughter. In the same Europe is full of examples of dynastic marriages, between deadly enemies. One, as they say, does not interfere with the other.
    The marriage of Mstislav to Kotyan’s daughter did not affect Russia in any way. The girl adopted the Christian faith with all the consequences. This did not at all prevent the Lyuli from dumping the particularly greyhound Polovtsian hordes. laughing
    1. DV69
      DV69 12 October 2017 18: 07
      +1
      Quote: Varyag77
      A colleague, in spite of the immortal lines "Yes, we are Scythians, and we are Asians." We have no relation to Asia.

      Here I do not agree. Even Herodotus describing the customs of the Scythians and Slavs emphasized their identity. He also spoke of a single language.
      So all the same, we are Scythians, in some way.
      1. venaya
        venaya 12 October 2017 19: 07
        +3
        Quote: DV69
        .. still we Scythians, somewhat.

        And here the fun begins: prof. A. Klyosov calls the genus "R1a1" of the haplotype "Z280", which is 5 thousand years old, and he calls the Scythians (the term Greek, not self-name) the same genus "R1a1", already the haplotype "Z-93" and relatives, which just just 4 thousand years old, that is, millennia younger and which themselves came out of the genus from the haplotype "Z-280". How can we say that we are “Scythians”, while ak is the other way around, that is, “Scythians” are descendants of the Rus and nothing else. That is, the classics were clearly mistaken in confusing the birthright of the Rus and "Scythians".
        1. DV69
          DV69 12 October 2017 19: 12
          +2
          Quote: venaya
          That is, the classics were clearly mistaken in confusing the birthright of the Rus and "Scythians".

          I do not argue, but in fact we are one people
      2. FenrirXnumx
        FenrirXnumx 13 October 2017 15: 58
        +1
        Quote: DV69
        Even Herodotus describing the customs of the Scythians and Slavs emphasized their identity.

        It is especially interesting at the same time that Herodotus did not mention any Slavs and could not mention them, since there simply didn’t exist at that time. As they say - "You are lying, but do not lie" laughing
        There is a feeling that many here in the comments under this article from the madhouse pee.
        1. DV69
          DV69 13 October 2017 16: 32
          0
          Quote: Fenrir48
          It is especially interesting at the same time that Herodotus did not mention any Slavs and could not mention them, since there simply didn’t exist at that time. As they say - "You are lying, but do not lie"

          http://yandex.ru/clck/jsredir?from=yandex.ru%3Bse
          arch%2F%3Bweb%3B%3B&text=&etext=1573.5xZM
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          TKckTK-_KTwYxNfsK6jdXXgzSdze7Sy1ycFDrEKE-IFL0q5Ux
          1QcGemRBY-ncWVomYf4okbtZnb1KEbTOR & data = UlNrNm
          k5WktYejR0eWJFYk1LdmtxckgybllHTFVQdkVWREdUd1d2Vkp
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          pQKZS7nwLOkZllNIO2PsBxT1e3iWo-JW9UekmK8SXw_GN1pLB
          JdM7S2eTnGrlzo, & l10n = ru & cts = 1507901538952
          & mc = 3.1701348924281954 & bu = uniq15078997264
          10396068
          1. FenrirXnumx
            FenrirXnumx 13 October 2017 21: 03
            0
            The link does not open with me. Yes, you do not work, comrade, I read Herodotus - he does not have a word about any Slavs. Another thing is that he mentions the tribes that your sore imagination takes for the Slavs. Well - this is your fantasy, but Herodotus has nothing to do with it.
            PS: Do not be late for dinner, otherwise the orderlies will remove everything wink
            1. DV69
              DV69 13 October 2017 21: 58
              +1
              Quote: Fenrir48
              Another thing is that he mentions the tribes that your sore imagination takes for the Slavs.

              And what tribes does Herodotus mention? And who else lived in the territory that Russia now occupies? You will not prompt
              1. FenrirXnumx
                FenrirXnumx 13 October 2017 23: 03
                0
                Budins, Issedons, fissagets, Argippei bald from birth, one-eyed people - Arimaspians, Scythians-farmers, etc. etc.
                1. venaya
                  venaya 13 October 2017 23: 41
                  +1
                  Quote: Fenrir48
                  .. Scythians, farmers, etc. etc.

                  The term "farmers"even in today's Russian language agr-арui. Yesali consider that the term "Scythians"- is of Greek origin, that is, it’s not the people’s self-name, but it was practically impossible to distinguish the" Scythians "from the Rus (Slovenes) or the Slavs (as it is now fashionable to call them). Note for yourself that the Greeks in their terminology they didn’t always use the self-name of the peoples, but called them in their own way, and other peoples did the same, for example: “Etruscan”, “Sumerians”, etc. If we take this into account, then everything falls into place, it is important for us to know who exactly, what peoples and what kind lived in those places at that time and in what language (dialect) were spoken, I think that for today this will be quite enough.
                2. the lord
                  the lord 14 October 2017 08: 26
                  +1
                  I was especially pleased about the one-eyed arimaslov, what is it like reading and asserting that Herodotus is at least somewhat credible. All these wretched scholars from Hellas and Rome. and the Arabs, too. so confused the matter that it would be better not to write at all. No self-names, no local names of geographical objects, all a notion. It was lucky only to those who showed themselves in their field of activity earlier than these "scientists" took up. Here the Scythians were lucky, but under them many other peoples, possibly even at war with them, were attributed.
                  1. FenrirXnumx
                    FenrirXnumx 14 October 2017 10: 29
                    0
                    Quote: znavel
                    argue that Herodotus is at least somewhat credible.

                    I have never written that Herodotus is authority for me. A comrade from above wrote that Herodotus mentioned something about the Slavs, and brought him the names of the tribes that this historian really mentioned.
                    To the honor of Herodotus, he was critical of information and did not believe in the existence of arimasp. Unlike you, blessed ones, believers in everything that the soul desires.
                    1. the lord
                      the lord 14 October 2017 14: 08
                      +1
                      Yeah, he was critical. but described, very scientific. As they say, I haven’t seen it, but I condemn it))). They and you can- you just do everything through "prisms" .... However, genetics. all the more so dna genealogy is an exact science
    2. the lord
      the lord 14 October 2017 08: 20
      0
      How miserable is it to measure everything with respect to Asia or Europe. The Greeks actually allocated another part of the world - Scythia. Here we relate to Knei, and Celtic and Asia are a matter of geopolitics
  16. Varyag77
    Varyag77 12 October 2017 17: 43
    +1
    Quote: DV69
    Quote: Ken71
    what specific foreigners were invited first and in which specific departments you will also learn that not one of them could deal with Russian history professionally.

    Answer my dear, what did one Miller (who Lomonosov broke his nose for such "activities" at the symposium) and Schletser?

    Absolutely true Colleague. And then they also sent to prison for such an abuse of the Western luminary. But Mikhailo Lomonosov from Pomors e mine. And he didn’t do it like that. What an honor and praise to him for centuries.
  17. Varyag77
    Varyag77 12 October 2017 18: 40
    0
    Quote: knn54
    Varangian and Co. Do not like Fomenko, Sundakov read at least Mavro Orbini (not Slovenian) "Slavic kingdom". There is a rather funny historical novel by I. Bilyk "The Sword of Ares", almost the entire circulation of which the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine ordered to seize and destroy in 1972, but not for the content, but for the quotes (in the appendix) from the REAL opuses of medieval authors. In particular, the Huns tall and bearded, live in WOODEN houses and their virgins are beautiful (not verbatim) ...

    Well, I read Orbini. So what?
  18. ver_
    ver_ 12 October 2017 18: 58
    0
    Quote: DV69
    Quote: San Sanych
    that almost nothing is known about the pre-Christian period in the history of Russia or Russia, suggests that after all someone really tried to make as little as possible aware of this period

    I will support. For example, now in the yard is summer 7526 from the farm in the land of agriculture, tell me, where have more than 5 thousand years of our history gone?

    ... this is all the cunning of the Church .. The biblical Masufail (I can change the name) lived for about 900 years .. This is impossible .. Divide 900 by 12 = 75 years - This is 900 years according to the lunar calendar .. In one year, 12 months. A month is a lunar year. In ancient times, the lunar calendar was used. Because it’s easy to fix the full moon, the waning of the month and the birth of it ..
    1. DV69
      DV69 12 October 2017 19: 14
      +1
      Quote: ver_
      this is all the cunning of the Church ..

      Which church? Christianity is less than the Slavic calendar! Who is cunning?
      1. Kenxnumx
        Kenxnumx 12 October 2017 20: 04
        +1
        And what a Slavic calendar. So round from south america yeah
        1. DV69
          DV69 13 October 2017 09: 41
          +1
          Quote: Ken71
          And what a Slavic calendar. So round from south america yeah

          No Slavic calendar is from the creation of the world. Ignoramus.
        2. the lord
          the lord 14 October 2017 08: 31
          0
          Well, you don’t have to make fun of it so rudely - the calendar exists, according to it the ROC is trying to live, and its reckoning for 7 thousand years draws
    2. the lord
      the lord 14 October 2017 08: 30
      0
      Yours about methuselah might have been a ride, but there are some who are listed there (right now I won’t look too lazy, but he is) they attribute to someone about 90 years old, and he manages to continue to become a father and continue the clan .... Here is such a knee from a young maniac)) )))
  19. Varyag77
    Varyag77 12 October 2017 19: 05
    0
    Quote: DV69
    Quote: Varyag77
    A colleague, in spite of the immortal lines "Yes, we are Scythians, and we are Asians." We have no relation to Asia.

    Here I do not agree. Even Herodotus describing the customs of the Scythians and Slavs emphasized their identity. He also spoke of a single language.
    So all the same, we are Scythians, in some way.

    It’s clear about the Scythians. What did Herodotus write about the Slavs? It seems to me nothing. He didn’t even know such a word
    1. venaya
      venaya 12 October 2017 19: 29
      +1
      Quote: Varyag77
      It’s clear about the Scythians. What did Herodotus write about the Slavs? It seems to me nothing. He didn’t even know such a word

      What he could write about the "Slavs" when such a word did not exist yet, therefore he did not know. He could call “Scythians” anyone, including the Russians, it wasn’t a principle for him, and the Slavs introduced the term only from the 16th century, comes from the Latin “fusion” falconEtruscan rams, that is, admirers of the sun god (Ra, Yara) with the face of a falcon and a human body, are everywhere present. So he simply used "his" language, not paying any attention to the self-names of the clans themselves, hence all these misunderstandings.
  20. Varyag77
    Varyag77 12 October 2017 19: 39
    +1
    Quote: knn54
    In particular, the Huns are tall and bearded, live in WOODEN houses and their virgins are beautiful (not verbatim) ...

    Well, these are exactly the Slavs. Who else. The truth is. the rest were ugly and lived in glass sheds.
  21. Varyag77
    Varyag77 12 October 2017 19: 41
    0
    Quote: venaya
    Quote: Varyag77
    It’s clear about the Scythians. What did Herodotus write about the Slavs? It seems to me nothing. He didn’t even know such a word

    What he could write about the "Slavs" when such a word did not exist yet, therefore he did not know. He could call “Scythians” anyone, including the Russians, it wasn’t a principle for him, and the Slavs introduced the term only from the 16th century, comes from the Latin “fusion” falconEtruscan rams, that is, admirers of the sun god (Ra, Yara) with the face of a falcon and a human body, are everywhere present. So he simply used "his" language, not paying any attention to the self-names of the clans themselves, hence all these misunderstandings.

    The main thing here is to add IMHO. Since there are no options as they say.
  22. Varyag77
    Varyag77 12 October 2017 19: 43
    0
    Quote: Thunderbolt
    After the conquest of China and Middle Asia, they also fell upon Russia. They reached the lands of modern Czechia (according to documents), so there is nothing strange about this.

    Colleague, can you confirm with reference to the document and its dating that the Mongol Tatars reached the Czech Republic? And then the public is interested.
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 12 October 2017 19: 53
      +2
      Quote: Varyag77
      can with reference to the document and its dating confirm that the Mongol-Tatars reached the Czech Republic? And then the public is interested.


      Official request
      And everything coincides with the spread of the Russian language repeat
      1. siberalt
        siberalt 12 October 2017 22: 38
        +1
        The same arrows could be put in the period 1944-45, and so what? laughing And in the First World War they reached Paris. But what have the mothers to do with it, if all these roads are trodden by the Russians? belay
        1. Thunderbolt
          Thunderbolt 13 October 2017 01: 59
          +2
          Quote: Varyag77
          Colleague, can you confirm with reference to the document and its dating that the Mongol Tatars reached the Czech Republic? And then the public is interested.

          And you, "colleague", do not provide video recordings from surveillance cameras of Czech towns that robbed hordes from the east under the command of the Mongol military leaders? lol
          as rumor has come to be known and [as] rumored, their immeasurable army is advancing, having been divided into three parts by bearing parts, for the Lord indulges their destructive designs. After all, one [part was] sent against the 68 Pluktenov and entered Poland; sovereign, that land fell from the battle they had committed 69, and then all that kingdom was ruined by them. The second [part] invaded within bohemia and was stopped thanks to the courageous rebuff rendered by him to the king of this country. The third [part] raced across Hungary, approaching the borders of Austriahttp: //www.vostlit.info/Texts/rus/Matthew_
          Par / frametext1.htm
        2. Rurikovich
          Rurikovich 13 October 2017 08: 00
          +1
          Quote: siberalt
          But what have the mothers to do with it, if all these roads are trodden by the Russians?

          It is this, upart, explain, with their "yoke" laughing
          1. Ulan
            Ulan 13 October 2017 18: 34
            +2
            Yes, we believe that Adam and Eve were undoubtedly Russian. Only Ukrainians don’t talk about this, they will be offended.
            It’s not clear how you differ from Bebik. I hope soon one of you will say that the Russians dug up the Arctic Ocean. We’ll forget about stealing tanks.
            1. Rurikovich
              Rurikovich 13 October 2017 19: 21
              +1
              Quote: Ulan
              It’s not clear how you differ from Bebik. I hope soon one of you will say that the Russians dug up the Arctic Ocean. We’ll forget about stealing tanks.

              This is a certain period of our history, no one among Ukrainians disputes the Black Sea and disputes with Adam laughing
              1. Ulan
                Ulan 13 October 2017 19: 52
                +1
                Fu ... well, thank God it's relieved from my heart.
                Now I am for ancient ukrov, completely calm. lol
  23. Varyag77
    Varyag77 12 October 2017 19: 49
    0
    Quote: Rurikovich
    Quote: DV69
    And now the question is, how did a huge state "migrate" from the Far East to actually the center of Europe in less than 25 years? Together with women, old people and children, with clockwork, pack and fighting horses, oxen, or whatever was in the Tatar carts harnessed. And the note did this with battles, in the complete absence of support from the local (enslaved) population, supply and repair bases.
    And then she suddenly stopped at the western borders of Russia, due to (according to the official version) fear of leaving freedom-loving Slavs behind. What is the rear of the nomads?

    Ohhh, darago, so you beat the sub-official good drinks
    I’ll ask one more question to which the official bodies cannot specifically give an answer!
    According to the official history of the Mongol-Tatars, Batu reached the Adriatic Sea, crushing the territories where today's Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania and the countries of the former Yugoslavia are located. And now the specific question is whether facts have been preserved in these territories that indicate precisely that they were conquered by the Mongol-Tatars. The answer is NO! But conquest is violence, plunder, and therefore dilution of indigenous peoples by aliens. Genetics deny this (at least I have not heard of such a statement) FOR THAT is the territory of the distribution of the Russian (Slavic) language. From time to time, of course, the native language has changed, but the Slavs of Eastern and Southeastern Europe understand Russian. ABOUT WHICH MONGOL TATARS A SPEECH IS GOING !!!! The conquest completely coincides with the spread of the Russian language !!! How, Karl ??? And my official gagging about the Mongol-Tatars fool laughing
    Au, champions of the official history of the "Mongol-Tatars", answer the question - why so ??? !!! fellow
    PS. Just do not weave, about the fact that the conquered peoples of Russia did this. Such peoples would quickly revolt in the distance and re-cut their “steamers,” and with the newly captured would rise uprising away from the supposedly Horde. hi

    As for the lack of genetic traces, the explanation is oddly enough. And he should be known, if you talk about the Mongol-Tatars. It is extremely simple. Genghis Khan forbade incest under pain of the death penalty. And the discipline in his troops was, God forbid.
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 12 October 2017 20: 04
      +5
      Quote: Varyag77
      It is extremely simple. Genghis Khan forbade incest under pain of the death penalty.

      laughing I beg of you laughing laughing
      Do you believe in this nonsense? Or believe it because official history thinks so? wink It turns out that Genghis Khan has a homie .... sorry, sodomy flourished. Or one half of the army made sure that the second did not go left fool laughing
      Turn on your brains and start thinking with them. Then maybe simple things will become clear yes Everywhere throughout history there has been incest; various "igi" and conquests with campaigns are traced there, and the 400 years yoke in Russia are special laughing One, over there, came up with passionarity, while others generally speak about the prohibition of incest, in all seriousness ... winked
      Or maybe everything is simple - there was no yoke and that’s all ... But there was an ordinary Russian state with a normal tithe tax on the army, with the construction of churches, with the suppression of separatism and small presumptuous princedoms within the country. Only then all of this was called "IGOM" and they began to pervert with evidence of their innocence ....
      Huh?
      Or is it impossible? Taboo from historians?
      1. Ulan
        Ulan 13 October 2017 18: 39
        +1
        Here's an awesome proof - "and you believe that?"
        Are there any other arguments? Can you read Genghis Khan's "Iass" ?.
        Maybe you are very young and do not know that not every sexual contact ends in conception?
        Maybe you do not know that the Mongols did not live in Russian settlements, and after the raid and robbery, they immediately left for the steppes?
        And in Europe they did not stay, but interrupted the campaign and the reasons are known. But not for you.
        All your arguments are hee hee, haha ​​and rumors and gossip.
        Have you read serious works on this topic? For example, on the complex of weapons did Mikhail Gorelik read?
        Or did you have enough of Fomenki's fantasies?
        1. Rurikovich
          Rurikovich 13 October 2017 19: 24
          +2
          Quote: Ulan
          Here's an awesome proof - "and you believe that?"
          Are there any other arguments? Can you read Genghis Khan's "Iass" ?.
          Maybe you are very young and do not know that not every sexual contact ends in conception?
          Maybe you do not know that the Mongols did not live in Russian settlements, and after the raid and robbery, they immediately left for the steppes?
          And in Europe they did not stay, but interrupted the campaign and the reasons are known. But not for you.
          All your arguments are hee hee, haha ​​and rumors and gossip.
          Have you read serious works on this topic? For example, on the complex of weapons did Mikhail Gorelik read?
          Or did you have enough of Fomenki's fantasies?

          To each his own request Then the last century is already being corresponded, and you want me to believe in what happened 700 years ago? lol I only believe in what my mind tells me to believe wink And you believe Gorelik, I don’t give you request
          1. Ulan
            Ulan 13 October 2017 19: 59
            +1
            Those. knowledge, facts, documents, you ignore and only believe in what your mind generates.
            Well, it's easier, look at the ceiling and wait for your mind to tell you.
            Well, not bad either.
            Gorelik is a well-known historian specializing in the history of weapons, armor, their use, origin, etc., like Kipichnikov. Ancient and medieval times in the East.
            In particular, the Mongol army. And not only. The same armies, Siberian peoples, Persians, etc.
            You always confuse faith and facts, which are given on the basis of a huge array of studies.
    2. the lord
      the lord 14 October 2017 08: 41
      0
      Excuse me, but you can’t believe this as usual, but why forbid your warriors to rest as much as they like after the battle. why show such squeamishness, when on the contrary, the Mongols were much uglier than the Europeans. But their presence did not appear because it was short-lived, and not every time the woman will suffer. And secondly. there is such a thing as human midwives in human society, and the custom of throwing hastards under the gates of monasteries, where they then spent their time as monks in monks.
    3. Sergej1972
      Sergej1972 16 October 2017 01: 34
      0
      Incest is the sexual intercourse between relatives. And nothing else.
  24. Varyag77
    Varyag77 12 October 2017 19: 50
    0
    Quote: DV69
    Quote: pupsik
    They built the Great Wall of China, but not a single large stone city in Russia existed until the 10th century. Is funny Highly.

    Lying. The Scandinavians called Russia Hradarica, due to the fact that as early as 7 in AD in Russia there were more than 100 cities, which exceeded the total number of cities in Europe.
    It was built from wood due to the presence of a large amount of forest and its cheapness.

    Where is this written? that in the 7th century in Russia there were more than 100 cities. What is the sacred record? Where do you get all this from?
    1. Kenxnumx
      Kenxnumx 12 October 2017 20: 02
      +1
      He somewhere read that so Gardariki is translated. Only the number incorrectly remembered and did not understand what is meant.
  25. Varyag77
    Varyag77 12 October 2017 20: 03
    0
    Quote: Rurikovich
    Quote: Varyag77
    can with reference to the document and its dating confirm that the Mongol-Tatars reached the Czech Republic? And then the public is interested.


    Official request
    And everything coincides with the spread of the Russian language repeat

    Well, I’m apparently not very. I don’t understand where the text is. I do not see the name of the annals and the term Mongol-Tatars
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 12 October 2017 20: 17
      +2
      Quote: Varyag77
      I don’t understand where the text is.

      You do not know letters, we are not able to read al ??? belay Trouble winked
      Campaigns of "MONGOLS" to Western Europe. - prayed at the top
      Or do we not believe cards from textbooks? And they are drawn on the basis of officialdom yes
      Quote: Varyag77
      I do not see the name of the annals and the term Mongol-Tatars

      Turn off the back wink
      1. SMP
        SMP 12 October 2017 20: 50
        +1
        Work with him through a proxy. such ..... lol vision doesn’t protect the poor all day in front of the monitor. Too lazy to look for a photo of the USA Army Nerga, in front of the monitor a comment wassat ..... ((( I am a Crimean daughter of an officer )))) laughing
  26. Varyag77
    Varyag77 12 October 2017 20: 41
    +1
    Quote: Rurikovich
    Quote: Varyag77
    I don’t understand where the text is.

    You do not know letters, we are not able to read al ??? belay Trouble winked
    Campaigns of "MONGOLS" to Western Europe. - prayed at the top
    Or do we not believe cards from textbooks? And they are drawn on the basis of officialdom yes
    Quote: Varyag77
    I do not see the name of the annals and the term Mongol-Tatars

    Turn off the back wink

    And here is the back or front? I asked you to indicate a written source which indicates the invasion of the Mongol-Tatars in Europe. Just after all? Leading you to the conclusion that perhaps this invasion itself was not possible, or if it was, then the “Tatar-Mongols” could not be indicated because this term appeared only in the 16th century. And you tell me here the distribution cards of the Russian language. As they say without comment. Compare apparently not fate. Because it is strange to read how a person gives out a thought to the mountain, to which I actually let him down. L-Logic.
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 12 October 2017 21: 11
      +1
      Quote: Varyag77
      I asked you to indicate a written source which indicates the invasion of the Mongol-Tatars in Europe

      XXI century in the yard - "google" on a computer, or laziness? There you can read the evening about the intricacies of Batu’s campaign at Europu in 1240-43, even from Chinese sources. I would also understand that there is no computer and asked for a letter lol I don’t have enough nerves to paint wink hi So Claud’s arm and go soldier
      Quote: Varyag77
      or if it was then "Tatar-Mongols" cannot be indicated because this term appeared only in the 16th century

      Eeee, Daragoy, Melka swam lol take it closer - exactly in the Mullerev version of the story commissioned by the Romanovs tongue
      Quote: Varyag77
      And you tell me here the distribution cards of the Russian language.

      And what belay , namesake, compare data laziness? To put the spread of the Russian (okay, Slavic) language on Batu’s campaign at Europu and get a tracing-paper of one from the other, is not enough desire ??? lol
  27. SMP
    SMP 12 October 2017 20: 43
    0
    Take, for example, the famous Chinese wall. Naturally, the first question arises: why are the loopholes on the wall directed southward, towards China, and the entrances to the wall are also located on the outer, northern side? Is this an architect's mistake or what? So, it was not China that defended itself against this wall from those who lived north of this wall, but they — from China.


    The Great Wall of China - a separation wall with a length of almost 9000 km (total length 21,2 thousand km)
    Photos with a compass in the studio....... That is, every (one hundred) 100 km.

    What can’t you do for the sake of science? Truth? Only 210 photos with the image of a compass and a wall,
    I haven’t been to China, but I can assume that there are insignificant sections covering the entrance to some gorge, etc. that is, a separate section of 5-30 km. can be directed anywhere and to the south and north and to the west and east. And this can be speculated, this is just my personal guess.
    Site, grid coordinates, where photographs were taken on which the compass was photographed as evidence and part of the wall with loopholes, and business. 200-300-400 photos
    1. passerby5
      passerby5 13 October 2017 16: 40
      0
      somehow here about 9000tysch-hardly fit. where they can be placed, and already 21 thousand. China can be surrounded in 4 circles. what is there from satellites esche interesting to see?
  28. Varyag77
    Varyag77 12 October 2017 20: 52
    0
    Quote: SMP
    (((I am a Crimean daughter of an officer))))

    Hello. I am Yaroslavets. Russian officer.
    1. SMP
      SMP 12 October 2017 21: 26
      0
      USA Army NERG, in front of the monitor typing comment

      laughing
      Hello. I am Yaroslavets. Russian officer.


      you who the joker greeted laughing laughing
      Do not save your sight at all? laughing
      with a black USA Amia or the great-granddaughter of a Crimean woman laughing
      damn well, you are waiting today ... I'll go have a cup of tea, otherwise it’s not spelled .. wassat
      Maybe some thread scientific ... historical ... science self-sketching ))))
  29. SMP
    SMP 12 October 2017 21: 01
    +1
    Quote: siberalt
    For 300 years, the Mongolian boys of Genghis Khan were circumcised so that they would not even leave a trace in Russia, and literate Mongols, for this, cut off their tongues and cut off their fingers! laughing



    laughing laughing laughing laughing good

    + 100... thanks neighing ...
  30. Varyag77
    Varyag77 12 October 2017 22: 01
    0
    Quote: SMP
    USA Army NERG, in front of the monitor typing comment

    laughing
    Hello. I am Yaroslavets. Russian officer.


    you who the joker greeted laughing laughing
    Do not save your sight at all? laughing
    with a black USA Amia or the great-granddaughter of a Crimean woman laughing
    damn well, you are waiting today ... I'll go have a cup of tea, otherwise it’s not spelled .. wassat
    Maybe some thread scientific ... historical ... science self-sketching ))))

    Go head to fly. Petrosyan
  31. sergo1914
    sergo1914 12 October 2017 22: 14
    +1
    What is yelling? They arranged a bazaar. We must ask the GDP. As he says, so it was. Tea specialist. Amphora found.
  32. Varyag77
    Varyag77 12 October 2017 22: 31
    0
    Quote: Rurikovich
    Quote: Varyag77
    I asked you to indicate a written source which indicates the invasion of the Mongol-Tatars in Europe

    XXI century in the yard - "google" on a computer, or laziness? There you can read the evening about the intricacies of Batu’s campaign at Europu in 1240-43, even from Chinese sources. I would also understand that there is no computer and asked for a letter lol I don’t have enough nerves to paint wink hi So Claud’s arm and go soldier
    Quote: Varyag77
    or if it was then "Tatar-Mongols" cannot be indicated because this term appeared only in the 16th century

    Eeee, Daragoy, Melka swam lol take it closer - exactly in the Mullerev version of the story commissioned by the Romanovs tongue
    Quote: Varyag77
    And you tell me here the distribution cards of the Russian language.

    And what belay , namesake, compare data laziness? To put the spread of the Russian (okay, Slavic) language on Batu’s campaign at Europu and get a tracing-paper of one from the other, is not enough desire ??? lol

    I understand that reading comments is generally too lazy. The case is difficult, but treatable. We read my comments from the first, analyze, compare, draw a conclusion. Profit If it’s difficult to contact, I will explain. To lead the discussion in the key of the opponent, I look in the book and I see a fig, there is no desire. An argument is boring for the sake of argument. We read and delve into what we read. If at all possible.
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 13 October 2017 08: 11
      +2
      I’m what you propose to read and analyze on the topic of the so-called “Mongol-Tatar yoke” at school yes It’s more interesting for me to discuss adequate things with new introductory things than to transfer from empty to empty officialdom wink

      Battle of Legnica. 14th century miniature.
      Mongols on the left yes Question WHERE DO YOU SEE MONGOLS? And on the flag is also the face of a typically Slavic type. Purely all the typical Russian peasants, these "Mongols" what
      That’s what they’d think a little. Can you sing official explanations again? repeat
      1. Ulan
        Ulan 13 October 2017 18: 47
        +1
        Dear, how can you depict “Mongol faces” in miniature? Do you seriously think that the artist was drawing from nature?
        Dear complex of armor Rusich and Mongols outwardly very similar.
        Read specialized literature.
        The same chain mail, the same spheroconic helmets, greaves, bracers, etc.
        Russian equestrian warriors, unlike the European ones, were armed with a bow and arrows, as were the Mongols.
        So the similarity in miniature does not mean anything.
        Only that they are warriors from the East.
        With the same success they can be passed off as Armenian soldiers or Arabs.
        1. Rurikovich
          Rurikovich 13 October 2017 19: 36
          +2
          Quote: Ulan
          Dear complex of armor Rusich and Mongols outwardly very similar.


          Quote: Ulan
          The same chain mail, the same spheroconic helmets, greaves, bracers, etc.

          Quote: Ulan
          Russian equestrian warriors, unlike the European ones, were armed with a bow and arrows, as were the Mongols.


          Quote: Ulan
          only that these are warriors from the East.

          Can it be accepted there because all the same, it was not the Mongols who were in the East, but the Russians? Or does officialdom not allow? Oh yes, this is HERESY - this cannot be, because these were the Mongols ...
          The Mongols and beards were released to themselves, and under the Russian saints they are fighting on the flags ...
          Funny laughing
          1. the lord
            the lord 14 October 2017 08: 51
            0
            And what kind of saint is there on the flag? Someone does not pull on the face of the savior, but the European miniature, they seem to know him ...
            As if officialdom to any rebel across the throat. but here they could have tried to portray the fight with the Mongols, but since the artists there were like the “scientists” there, they could just draw the Slavs more familiar to them from the east. As you know, Christ in China on icons acquires Asian features ...
            Tales of tartaria also began in those days and with the same evidence base, based on external similarities.
            1. Rurikovich
              Rurikovich 14 October 2017 08: 59
              0
              Quote: znavel
              As if officialdom to any rebel across the throat. but here they could have tried to portray the fight with the Mongols, but since the artists there were like the “scientists” there, they could just draw the Slavs more familiar to them from the east. As you know, Christ in China on icons acquires Asian features ...

              Aha. Only those “artists” lived much closer in time to the described events than you and I did, and therefore, in common sense, they knew better than you what the “Mongols” really looked like. Or it is not taken as evidence wink
              1. the lord
                the lord 14 October 2017 09: 21
                0
                No, it’s not accepted - there no one demanded authenticity - they could easily work under tracing paper from past "works". Science in those days was the tenth thing, and the client is satisfied, what else is needed?
                1. Rurikovich
                  Rurikovich 14 October 2017 09: 26
                  0
                  Quote: znavel
                  No, it’s not accepted - there no one demanded authenticity - they could easily work under tracing paper from past "works". Science in those days was the tenth thing, and the client is satisfied, what else is needed?

                  How simple it is for you — today you have declared contemporaries of those events liars and ignoramuses. This is the trouble of official history - to customize the facts. Therefore, alternative motivators will continue to appear, because history cannot give an adequate answer to just questions hi
                  1. the lord
                    the lord 14 October 2017 14: 21
                    0
                    And what reliability does the miniature give you? After all, this is a subjective object in the transfer of information precisely in terms of the description of participants. The fact itself was, but painted according to albeit unspoken, but "canons". There is no way to note the authenticity and scrupulousness of this document in terms of descriptiveness. In terms of attitude to official history, one can look for contradictions and inconsistencies. And, perhaps . it will be possible to review some periods, especially in lands far from Rome, Constantinople and the Mediterranean in general. But to rush with a saber at everything that is collected and stated, refuting pictures, rumors, albeit set out in books, speculations such as "how could they." Here, proceedings are also needed in terms of experiments on the technical side of the issue, archeology, the search for and publication or appearance of the same world. uncomfortable facts .... And the fact that you can’t refute it in terms of fact, you have to endure, since both sides can be equally wrong. After all, history is often the history of precisely human errors. not accurate and accurate calculations that led to victory.
  33. yarema vishneveckiy
    yarema vishneveckiy 12 October 2017 23: 17
    0
    The article as a laxmus clearly defines who else is adequate))) It surprises me how any stuffed animal can, otherwise it can write any nonsense, carry complete nonsense and someone else likes it .... Maybe the author is just a mentally ill person .. ???? Then it explains a lot ...
  34. seacap
    seacap 12 October 2017 23: 49
    +1
    We already have several generations of schoolchildren who know the history from the textbooks of Soros, thanks to our (rather than ours) ministers with their reforms aimed at the complete destruction of the country, so that we are ahead of our now violent, seemingly, neighboring brothers. This is only the Black Sea they didn’t dare to shave it earlier. The Academy of Sciences was crushed to the root, what kind of history is there, there is commerce, the market and the distribution of the titles of all kinds of sciences, relatives and who are richer in warning, including history we can not see for a long time, as well as everything else. the groundwork is already coming to an end, the designers and scientists of the old school are already dying, and something new has not been heard, most likely a long time ago overseas. We do not need creative personalities, we need a consumer (lumpen, to be more precise). And what’s the most annoying thing the minister who committed the most important crime against his homeland and people (after the combine and the foreman, of course) still eats sweetly and sleeps softly, and not with a kyle in the slaughter. That's because of such complete irresponsibility, mutual responsibility, permissiveness, to us good luck not to see, and all that is on the screen and pages is blah blah blah.
  35. ver_
    ver_ 13 October 2017 03: 50
    +1
    Quote: DV69
    Quote: ver_
    this is all the cunning of the Church ..

    Which church? Christianity is less than the Slavic calendar! Who is cunning?

    ... Christ - this from the pectoral cross - the rune preserved .. Christ - the Slavs ... Watched the * heaven * for centuries - priests, priests, astronomers ... - what the hell difference is what these people were called? This was necessary first of all in * agriculture * - when to sow, when to harvest, when to celebrate an event, when to pay tribute tax. The time was always taken ...
  36. ver_
    ver_ 13 October 2017 03: 59
    0
    Quote: DV69
    Quote: Uncle Vanya Susanin
    the Mongols raided Russia not from the territory of modern Mongolia, IMHO - vicious pseudoscientific nonsense

    I propose to look at this statement from a different angle.
    The so-called "Tatar-Mongolian" state was created by Chigiskhan. I hope you know this, Raids on Russia began his son Batu (aka Batu Khan).
    And now the question is, how did a huge state "migrate" from the Far East to actually the center of Europe in less than 25 years? Together with women, old people and children, with clockwork, pack and fighting horses, oxen, or whatever was in the Tatar carts harnessed. And the note did this with battles, in the complete absence of support from the local (enslaved) population, supply and repair bases.
    And then she suddenly stopped at the western borders of Russia, due to (according to the official version) fear of leaving freedom-loving Slavs behind. What is the rear of the nomads?

    ... A fake about the Tatar-Mongol invasion of Russia was created in 1920 by the government of Mr. Ulyanov = Blanca by order of his Kormchi ... This government was 85% Jewish, voiced by V. Putin ..
    1. DV69
      DV69 13 October 2017 10: 03
      0
      Quote: ver_
      . A fake about the Tatar-Mongol invasion of Russia was created in 1920 by the government of Mr. Ulyanov = Blanca by order of his Kormchi ... This government was 85% Jewish, voiced by V. Putin ..

      Come already from here. Troll.
      1. ver_
        ver_ 13 October 2017 16: 20
        0
        ... there’s nothing to blame for the mirror, since the face is crooked .. - a proverb ..
        1. DV69
          DV69 13 October 2017 18: 49
          0
          Is that you mirror?
  37. ver_
    ver_ 13 October 2017 04: 20
    +1
    Quote: Varyag77
    Quote: Rurikovich
    Quote: Varyag77
    I don’t understand where the text is.

    You do not know letters, we are not able to read al ??? belay Trouble winked
    Campaigns of "MONGOLS" to Western Europe. - prayed at the top
    Or do we not believe cards from textbooks? And they are drawn on the basis of officialdom yes
    Quote: Varyag77
    I do not see the name of the annals and the term Mongol-Tatars

    Turn off the back wink

    And here is the back or front? I asked you to indicate a written source which indicates the invasion of the Mongol-Tatars in Europe. Just after all? Leading you to the conclusion that perhaps this invasion itself was not possible, or if it was, then the “Tatar-Mongols” could not be indicated because this term appeared only in the 16th century. And you tell me here the distribution cards of the Russian language. As they say without comment. Compare apparently not fate. Because it is strange to read how a person gives out a thought to the mountain, to which I actually let him down. L-Logic.

    ,,, Mongolia was founded in 1920 ... This term -Mongolo-Tatar- could not appear in the 16th century .. This is a fake ...
  38. ver_
    ver_ 13 October 2017 04: 32
    0
    Quote: DV69
    Quote: Varyag77
    A colleague, in spite of the immortal lines "Yes, we are Scythians, and we are Asians." We have no relation to Asia.

    Here I do not agree. Even Herodotus describing the customs of the Scythians and Slavs emphasized their identity. He also spoke of a single language.
    So all the same, we are Scythians, in some way.

    ..the excavations of the Skiva barrows in Mongolia show the burial of the Europeans .. The Scythians left that territory in the 14th century due to climate change - desertification ..
    1. Ulan
      Ulan 13 October 2017 18: 49
      +1
      Ski or ski? lol
  39. Moon rover xnumx
    Moon rover xnumx 13 October 2017 05: 38
    0
    The winner writes the story ...
  40. kaban7
    kaban7 13 October 2017 09: 36
    +2
    "History - Science or Fiction" - a series of films made based on the works of academician Fomenko. He places the entire chronology of the world in its place. And this article is a confirmation of this, as well as the Zadornov film.
    1. passerby5
      passerby5 13 October 2017 16: 53
      0
      here I am about these films and wrote. maybe it puts it in its place .... but when it was already arranged with us earlier, it’s more likely you can say just nafig everything nafig flips and scatters. who to believe now ..... go get drunk and see all of them. I listened, like I heard you and and nafig
  41. brn521
    brn521 13 October 2017 10: 41
    +1
    Quote: DV69
    It was built from wood due to the presence of a large amount of forest and its cheapness.

    They built it from wood because it tolerates temperature differences much better than limestone and other soft building stone.
    1. Ulan
      Ulan 13 October 2017 18: 49
      +1
      In addition, wood is easier to warm than stone.
  42. ver_
    ver_ 13 October 2017 12: 14
    +1
    Quote: DV69
    Quote: ver_
    . A fake about the Tatar-Mongol invasion of Russia was created in 1920 by the government of Mr. Ulyanov = Blanca by order of his Kormchi ... This government was 85% Jewish, voiced by V. Putin ..

    Come already from here. Troll.

    ..discover, my dear, search .. Mongolia was founded in 1920 with the active participation of Russia, and the Volga Bulgars were renamed by the decree of the CEC to Tatars in 1920 .. it’s just as exact as what Lenya Bronstein * was persuaded * ice ax ...
    1. Ulan
      Ulan 13 October 2017 18: 51
      +2
      And Poland was created in the 1920th year, by the Treaty of Versailles.
      "Iron logic.
  43. ver_
    ver_ 13 October 2017 12: 21
    0
    Quote: Varyag77
    Quote: Uncle Vanya Susanin
    “Alexander Nevsky with his retinue defeated the best army in the world - professional Teutonic knights. And what did we have at that time? The Mongol-Tatar yoke.” The Tatars then rode to us on their canine-footed horses, and we again "So we pay tribute? Well, isn't it funny?" - it’s not funny at all, the Mongols had an advanced army, for that time, and the best tactics of using light cavalry !!! "Third: not a single horse will get from here to here or from here to there. Any horse knows that. And there are a huge number of such inconsistencies." - he comes up with these inconsistencies, the Mongols raided Russia not from the territory of modern Mongolia, IMHO - vicious pseudoscientific nonsense, and an attempt to speculate on historical topics !!!

    And where did the Mongols raid? Especially the first, under the leadership of Uncle Batu? Just the topic of the Mongol Tatars is really so awkward, at least in its current form, that there are much more questions than sane answers

    ... the second campaign was led by Batu, when his older brother Caesar died ..
  44. Dzungar
    Dzungar 13 October 2017 12: 30
    +2
    Greetings to all those present. Usually I just read TopVar, not considering it necessary to register and insert something from myself into discussions. Although sometimes I really wanted to ... But now something decided to register and participate anyway, because the topic relates directly to the history of my people ...
  45. Dzungar
    Dzungar 13 October 2017 12: 33
    +1
    What Sundakov is talking about constantly comes across in discussions both on social networks and on sites like this. And come across precisely in such a statement, and without any changes and additions
  46. Dzungar
    Dzungar 13 October 2017 12: 40
    +1
    What Sundakov is talking about constantly comes across in discussions both on social networks and on sites like this. And without any additions from myself and any corrections in the text and meaning, as if simply copied, or simply reprinted. As happens with foolish people. As if they were reading this, and not being able to more deeply comprehend what they read, or just to be critical of it - they simply distort the read. And then they defend all this with foam on their lips, but they are not able to imagine something reasoned, they begin to turn to personalities and insult, which once again confirms the intellectual level of these adherents and neophytes of the “great Tatar Empire and ancient Rus”
  47. ver_
    ver_ 13 October 2017 13: 07
    0
    Quote: DV69
    Quote: ver_
    . A fake about the Tatar-Mongol invasion of Russia was created in 1920 by the government of Mr. Ulyanov = Blanca by order of his Kormchi ... This government was 85% Jewish, voiced by V. Putin ..

    Come already from here. Troll.

    .... there is such a proverb in Russia * there is nothing to blame for the mirror, since the face is crooked * ...
  48. ver_
    ver_ 13 October 2017 13: 16
    +1
    Quote: Rurikovich
    I’m what you propose to read and analyze on the topic of the so-called “Mongol-Tatar yoke” at school yes It’s more interesting for me to discuss adequate things with new introductory things than to transfer from empty to empty officialdom wink

    Battle of Legnica. 14th century miniature.
    Mongols on the left yes Question WHERE DO YOU SEE MONGOLS? And on the flag is also the face of a typically Slavic type. Purely all the typical Russian peasants, these "Mongols" what
    That’s what they’d think a little. Can you sing official explanations again? repeat

    ... the concept of Mughal is easily replaced by Mongols, which were not there ..
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 13 October 2017 15: 07
      +1
      Quote: ver_
      ... the concept of Mughal is easily replaced by Mongols, which were not there ..

      So all the fuss because of this and goes! fellow They came up with a fairy tale and stupidly believe in its reality yes But why change something if academicians receive titles for their "labors" laughing So today we have the Mongols, whose traces are not there and the "yoke" of which is very wrong laughing
      1. venaya
        venaya 13 October 2017 20: 09
        +1
        Quote: Rurikovich
        They came up with a fairy tale and stupidly believe in its reality

        So all religions are based on tales and tales. And the "History" is worse? The same tale for which these obviously religious fanatics of the "historian" (such as Daesh or ISIS and countless similar ones) are ready to kill indiscriminately, to destroy the cultural heritage of not their, but even their ancestors. Look at how many examples of this are, then you will understand what those people who often call themselves historians represent. I’m not talking about everyone, there really is a small number of outstanding ones, but as a rule these most outstanding ones are sent to the fire, to death, like M. Lomonosov, and all their works are mercilessly destroyed "penny", nothing, often not even a trace. I have before my eyes that there is still a living example of such an “approach”, and today I see in reality how stifling rebellious “upstarts” are strangled, despite the fact that many famous figures of today still refer to his works. Everything is more complicated than at first glance it seems, someone is profiting a lot from this science, more than at first glance you can imagine.
  49. ver_
    ver_ 13 October 2017 16: 03
    +1
    Quote: kaban7
    "History - Science or Fiction" - a series of films made based on the works of academician Fomenko. He places the entire chronology of the world in its place. And this article is a confirmation of this, as well as the Zadornov film.

    ... a dime a dozen stupefied by traditional history .. They have no reason to act on them .. they at least _ _ _ in the eyes - anyway - God's dew .. - they are insane like zombies ...
    1. Ulan
      Ulan 13 October 2017 18: 55
      +1
      And what are the "reasons"? Mughal Mongols? Are atamans ottoman and so on?
      Better I will believe in the official version, at least serious facts are considered there, and not this nonsense.
      Read Shpakovsky, that's how historical facts should be considered, and not rave.
      1. venaya
        venaya 13 October 2017 19: 40
        +2
        Quote: Ulan
        .. Shpakovsky read - that's how historical facts should be considered, and not rave.

        You are generally in the mind !!! I didn’t understand something, they haven’t yet been put in prison, because for the fact that he wrote here in any country that respects its own laws, he would have been threatened with a term, moreover, a real one. It may be to you in PM to send what he messed up here, because for such posts I personally will really be seated, and I think for a long time. Regarding the nonsense that he writes here, such as the "German nation" in the 10th century - this is how to understand, because this is pure Nazi propaganda of the 20s of the 20th century, even Hitler did not come to power then and he was already prepared for him Nazi foundation for his crazy ideas. Maybe you advertise such Nazi propaganda as an example of how to write? I am sorry for you, very sorry. You do not understand people at all!
      2. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 13 October 2017 19: 40
        +1
        Quote: Ulan
        And what are the "reasons"? Mughal Mongols? Are atamans ottoman and so on?

        But sho, it's hard to change the mind wink
        It is useless to argue with you, and I will not argue. Remain in your own, official, and I will believe in what I believe hi
        Just answer the question - why is the coin of the times of Dmitry Donskoy minted on one side by Dmitry Donskoy and Tokhtamysh on the other?
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 13 October 2017 19: 50
          +3
          Quote: Rurikovich
          Just answer the question - why is the coin of the times of Dmitry Donskoy minted on one side by Dmitry Donskoy and Tokhtamysh on the other?

          And what kind of coin is this? I saw with Peter where the ruble, Russian, made of pure silver was minted. "
          1. Rurikovich
            Rurikovich 13 October 2017 20: 33
            0
            There is one, in my opinion, in the Hermitage. Minted after the Battle of Kulikovo. The official says that having defeated Mamaia, Donskoi minted a coin in order to confirm his allegiance to Tokhtamysh! Consequently, “Dmitry Donskoy” was minted on one side and “Tokhtamysh Khan, on the other side, may there be days of his debts." Something like that. From my point of view - nonsense. If you defeated half of Tokhtamysh’s troops, then why would he admit allegiance? fool This is the same if Napoleon would break (hypothetically) Kutuzov at Borodino, mint a coin (in honor of the victory) with him on one side, and Alexander 1 on the other, because Alexander still has a polar army and Napoleon did not completely smashed laughing
            Our story is generally a muddy thing, especially the yoke. Yes, and a lot of evidence that it was possible at that time there was bilingualism in Russia because of the size of the country and the diversity of the population. That’s why the Ivan the Terrible’s bell tower in the Kremlin has inscriptions in Arabic, and in Russian armor, and on weapons, and the names were double - in Russian and in Arabic. Officials pretend that these are signs of a yoke, but common sense tells me that all the same bilingualism and any ruler always minted coins with only one name - his own. request
            1. the lord
              the lord 14 October 2017 09: 06
              0
              And the fact that the troops of the rebel mom, who rebelled against Tokhtamysh, were defeated, do not fit? In you and a coin with a confession of allegiance ..
              About the Arabic script on weapons, I heard about the same thing on the bell tower and double names, nothing like that. There is an explanation about weapons - the best saber weapons were produced in three places - Damascus, Dagestan and Russia. And the Arabs had the custom of decorating weapons with extracts from the Koran. Ours believed that this helps during the battle and repeated everything that they saw on the weapons of famous soldiers from the east.
  50. Varyag77
    Varyag77 13 October 2017 16: 41
    0
    Quote: Rurikovich
    I’m what you propose to read and analyze on the topic of the so-called “Mongol-Tatar yoke” at school yes It’s more interesting for me to discuss adequate things with new introductory things than to transfer from empty to empty officialdom wink

    Battle of Legnica. 14th century miniature.
    Mongols on the left yes Question WHERE DO YOU SEE MONGOLS? And on the flag is also the face of a typically Slavic type. Purely all the typical Russian peasants, these "Mongols" what
    That’s what they’d think a little. Can you sing official explanations again? repeat

    Sorry, but you really are not adequate. Have you definitely read my comments? I think no. Because if you really read, you would understand that I DO NOT BELIEVE IN TATAR_MONGOLSKY. Do you understand? I DO NOT BELIEVE. e mine then. I admit that something was happening at that time, but obviously not what was written in the official history. I have my own thoughts on this.
    but official history about the yoke, I NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Well, you can read like that laughing
    1. ver_
      ver_ 13 October 2017 17: 13
      +1
      ... you hell that you will prove to the humanities - they have in their brain the general line of officialdom instead of convolutions, they don’t have analytical thinking .. Even the official birth date of Mongolia -1920 means nothing to them. This is the wildest idiocy .. They are not able to draw conclusions, this breed of officials -to follow instructions without thinking -the head -always right by definition ...
    2. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 13 October 2017 17: 26
      0
      Quote: Varyag77
      You definitely read my comments

      Half belay
      Quote: Varyag77
      I don’t believe in TATAR_MONGOL

      It’s necessary to speak so bluntly as I do, and not to spin around the bush laughing
      Quote: Varyag77
      I have my own thoughts about this.

      But this is welcome drinks hi