Military Review

German destroyer. Fear of emptiness


Viscous and stingy emptiness fills the space. An inexplicable substance with a neutron star density, not bound by time or space. Its smallest particles form patterns with such high degrees of symmetry that emptiness seems to be an artificially created, rational organism.

Theory of emptiness. Ether. The great philosophical "nothing."

What the most ingenious astrophysicists could not understand was successfully embodied in metal in 2017, at the German shipyard ThyssenKrupp.

Military super-ship with a displacement of 7200 tons, loaded with ... emptiness.

Now I will try to explain what seven thousand tons mean for a warship.

With the right approach, this would be enough to implement very serious characteristics.

Such a ship can cut a wave on 32 nodes with the aggregate power of 68 thousand hp machines. Combined power plant - two steam turbines, two diesel engines, six steam boilers. To increase survivability, EI mechanisms can be dispersed in nine watertight compartments (and in total such compartments can be 16).

Electric power requirements were provided by three turbogenerators with an aggregate power of 0,5 megawatts.

The ship had three towers of the main caliber (mass 140 tons). And in the cellars of the ammunition, 1080 sharpened pigs (based on 120 per barrel), each weighing half a centner shone dimly.

German destroyer. Fear of emptiness

GK supplemented dozens of smaller-caliber artillery systems (including the powerful “Akht-Akht”, anti-aircraft guns of caliber 88 mm). The armament of the torpedoes, the 100 mines of the barrage, the catapult and the 2 seaplane closed up.

Anything that can be used as weaponwill be used as a weapon.

- Stanislav Lem

The crew of the miracle ship consisted, in theory, of 500 sailors. In practice, 820-850 sailors, foremen, and officers were usually on board the cruiser.

Oh yes, I almost forgot.

After all this, there was a reserve load for the installation of armor. Not the thickest armor plates. But watch out! Steel products are distinguished by their massiveness.

In short: armored belt (50 mm) with two traversing bulkheads (70 mm), bevels (10 mm), passing into the internal bulkhead (15 mm). Horizontal protection - a flat armored deck 20 mm thick, covering 100 meters of the length of the hull of the ship. It is worth noting that the hull lining in the upper part of the board had a thickness of 15 mm, which contributed to the additional security of the ship. And, of course, increased the already considerable mass of the body.

The exact value of the mass of body armor will tell military historians, but even purely offhand it is obvious that we are dealing with hundreds of tons.

This is what a warship with a total displacement of seven thousand tons is. So much weapons, mechanisms and various equipment are placed within the specified displacement.

You say - bust. But how else could exist the cruiser “Konigsberg”? This is 1927 year.

Light cruiser type "K" long sunk in history. Now let's see what 7200 tons of modern ship designers spent on. The newest Bundesmarine frigate type F125 “Baden-Württemberg” (2017 year). The Germans themselves are shy of its size - in reality, the frigate is the size of a destroyer.

What the Germans have achieved in 90 years. The results are in the short table.

The hull of the frigate has a greater width and lesser elongation (8 vs. 10,4), due to the lack of the need to ensure high speed. “Chunky” hull with more complete contours contributes to better seaworthiness and, with the same displacement, has a larger internal volume.

No one is going to seriously compare the automation and resource mechanisms of ships with 90-year difference in age. I can only note that the modern frigate demonstrates the power of modern technology. According to calculations, Baden-Württemberg will spend up to 5000 hours per year at sea (60% of the time), without the need for lengthy inter-line and scheduled preventive repairs.

Requirements to ensure autonomy and range remained unchanged. Like 90 years ago, modern warships of this class have a range of ~ 4000 miles. What does this mean for their design? Due to the continuous progress and increase in the efficiency of power plants, modern ships, with the same cruising range, require less fuel.

In terms of energy, a modern ship completely “merges” to its ancestor. And the question is not whether an oversized frigate needs the speed of an 30 with more than one knot, but that IT WAS, and now it has NOT BECAME. And the mass remained.

And if this is no longer the weight of the power plant mechanisms, then what was the load reserve spent on?

Again, the Baden power plant has not only less power, but also better specific performance. Lower weight (hp / t), better efficiency and efficiency. And if this is not observed, then this means that the technical progress of 90 has been trampling down the years.

The speed fell, the power decreased, the size of the GEM and the fuel supply decreased - the displacement (VI) remained the same.

Maybe the reserve was formed designers sent for weapons?

The most massive armament of the modern frigate is the nasal 127 mm installation Otobreda eight times lighter than one tower of the Königserg cruiser. Let me remind you that there were three such towers. And in modern frigate, in general, there is nothing more massive.

No water cannons, inflatable boats, and plastic harpoon rockets will cover the immense difference in the mass of weapons of ships of different eras.

Powerful gun barrels in mobile cradles weighing 12 tons, breech, clang chains of the ammunition supply system, drives and moving structures weighing 140 tons. There is no object for objective comparison.

Modern weapons occupy less space (compare the sweeping radius of the “Konigsberg” barrels - a dead zone where nothing can be installed) and weighs many times less than the 1920's naval guns.

Who does not believe - let him estimate the mass of the mobile launcher RAM (the mass of the air defense missile system together with missiles less than 8 tons) and compare this value with the paired anti-aircraft C / 32 caliber 88 mm (24 tons).

You, probably, think about modern means of detection and control of fire. Sonar radars, which in size and mass can (supposedly) go far beyond the bounds of reasonable. This is the desired “dark matter”, which occupies most of the VIs of a modern ship.

Well if so.

Alas, no “50-kilogram flash drives” (such a bike was encountered) and so forth. The masterpieces of military electronics made by military standards, protected from EMP, with half-kilogram plugs and the need to blow 5 fans, will not be able to compensate for the absence of at least one 140 -tonnaya tower main caliber.

I'm not talking about armor and an incredibly powerful (and long), by modern standards, powerplant - design features that "ate" a significant part of the military aircraft of the Second World War.

Now, instead of everything, the Cassidian TRS-4D radar with an active phased antenna array. (We say that the ships of past epochs did not have bulky rangefinder posts and analog calculating devices, the size of an entire room. Well, let’s skip this question, simplifying the task).

Returning to the multifunctional radar. There are no very heavy 50-kg “flash drives”. According to data provided by the developer of Airbus Defense, the radar is a compact system (these are non-rotating radar blades on 60's ships) consisting of four AFAR modules. All equipment is placed in a tower-like mast installed in front of the superstructure of the frigate.

Indirectly, the mass-dimensions of ground-based radar SAM systems, for example, 91Н6Е (С-400), placed on a mobile platform (MZKT-7930 tractor) testify to this. With incomparable radar characteristics, the domestic C-400 has twice (!) A greater detection range for aerodynamic targets.

For those who have not yet understood, the shipborne radar of Baden-Württemberg has a very modest, by modern standards, detection range, yielding in terms of energy capabilities (and therefore mass dimensions) to recognized favorites in the field of air defense.

And if the C-400, PAC-3 “Patriot” or long-range THAAD radar complexes are placed on a mobile chassis - why would a modest Caassidian TRS-4D radar suddenly weigh hundreds of tons?

It's not even Aegis.

Hydroacoustic station? Traditionally a large and heavy element of the modern ship.

Three times “ha.” On the new German frigate it is not.

Sources speak only about the anti-sabotage detection system of combat swimmers.

Maybe modern designers spend hundreds and thousands of tons on defense systems against weapons of mass destruction? Sealing, filters, deck irrigation system?

No, gentlemen. I can state with confidence that these elements do not affect the dimensions in any way. And weigh enough enough to remain imperceptible against the background of the dimensions of the ship. History knows examples when ESD systems and forced air conditioning systems were installed on ships of the late WWII period, without any noticeable influence on their design. An example is the heavy cruiser “Worcester”.

7200 tons of voids.

This is more than strange. Constructed at the turn of the millennium, the German frigates of the previous type “Saxony” (F124) had a larger crew, greater speed and carried weapons of a different scale.

Two radar. The first is APAR, a mass-dimensional analogue of the Cassidian TRS-4D, with four AFAR.
The second is a powerful decimeter S1850M with mechanical scanning (rotating antenna post) with a target detection range of ~ 1000 km.

And, in addition to the two self-defense RAM SAM systems, the 32 launch units for the “Standard-2” anti-aircraft missiles (in the future - the placement of the anti-satellite “Standard-3”) was possible. And this is a completely different opportunity. This is not “Baden-Württemberg”, whose air defense ends 9 km from the ship.

Otherwise, the “Saxony” carries the same “Mauser”, “Harpoons” and helicopters. And, by the way, is equipped with an anti-submarine anti-submarine gas.

What is the joke? Previous generation frigates had a lower displacement than the “Baden-Württemberg”. For a whole thousand tons!

Explanation of the paradoxes

As noted, it has been noted in past articles on the unexplained loss of displacement on modern tin cans warships, the design process can easily “get lost” 7, and 8, and 15 thousand tons, wasted into the void.

And this, in no case, is a rebuke to high-class specialist designers. This is following trends aimed at optimization. fleet under decorative functions and tasks.

It is possible to place a bridge (observation deck) with all communications and workplaces for dozens of sailors at the height of a nine-story building. This is the era of digital technology, remote monitoring and high-resolution cameras.

You say - risky. The crew will not be able to lead the ship if cameras and sensors are damaged by a powerful electromagnetic pulse (EMP). A counter question - do sailors, during a nuclear explosion, sailors will stand and admire a bright flash from the bridge?

Stupidity. The bridge, turned into a viewing platform - for beauty.

A new German frigates - for service in peacetime.

From here - tall sides and superstructure. Giant hangar, walls and roof. What's inside? Inside - four inflatable boats. And a box of gas flow ducts.

“Baden-Württemberg” - the apotheosis of modern trends in shipbuilding.

At the same time, we can not exclude such a moment. Like most European ships, the “Baden-Württemberg” comes into operation constructively underloaded. If necessary, additional armament can be installed on board. The most obvious option is the reserved space for the CIP cells in the nose of the frigate. Offhand - 16 PU type Mark-41.

Of course, what has been said will not be able to cover that grand difference in armament, radar and SLA between Baden and the outdated Saxony. But, obviously, the full draft of the F125 project, in its current state, is slightly less than the declared 7000 tonnes.

As an epilogue, you can add the following: in the construction of modern ships, large reserves are hidden. At change of conditions of technical creation, designers will easily realize any wishes of the customer. As easy as they can waste 7000 tons into emptiness.
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  1. spech
    spech 11 October 2017 07: 37 New
    After all this, there was a reserve of load for the installation of armor.

    I am writing a comment and I have no doubt who the author is hi
    PS although from the first lines there were suspicions.
  2. Kenxnumx
    Kenxnumx 11 October 2017 07: 40 New
    For a long time there was no Oleg. Welcome back.
    1. ICT
      ICT 11 October 2017 08: 06 New
      Quote: Ken71
      For a long time there was no Oleg. Welcome back.

      I already crying while reading
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 11 October 2017 09: 15 New
        Quote: TIT
        I already crying while reading

        And my heart pounded wildly when you see the familiar style and speed !!! fellow
        Although he himself was not there for six months repeat
    TELEMARK 11 October 2017 07: 56 New
    Hooray! With the return, the author learned from the first sentence, I’m sure it will be reading what you need!
    1. FID
      FID 11 October 2017 09: 25 New
      Quote: TELEMARK
      I am sure that reading will be what you need!

      I apologize, not "reading", but a completely correct article!
  4. DesToeR
    DesToeR 11 October 2017 07: 58 New
    Depth, depth I'm not yours ...
    1. netslave
      netslave 11 October 2017 08: 40 New
      Kaptsov, not Lukyanenko. laughing
  5. donavi49
    donavi49 11 October 2017 08: 46 New
    O armor. It is necessary to hang armor on all. And then when the anti-ship missiles are being modernized (and there is a large reserve for increasing armor penetration) - cry. Actually, the development of aviation and anti-ship missiles led to the fact that everyone abandoned the reservation, because it was useless. Now the opposite is true in the world of competition - who has thinner. Who has less weight spent on the skin and power set. And if anyone can build a destroyer with a skin of the same thickness as the Chinese credit facility “Last Way” - this will be the achievement of a decade in the industry.

    As for this destroyer - why? It was built when the main task of the Deutchmarine was humanitarian operations, the fight against pirates, and patrolling German zones of interest.

    Therefore, the main feature of the ship are huge (for this class) - convertible area. That is, under the hospital, under the placement of refugees, under humanitarian aid, under the banquet. Another feature is 4 boats that are dumped on the move (in those very side niches). Another feature is the widespread use of non-lethal (sound, water) weapons. Another feature is the electric ship, the diesel generates electricity at an ideal operating mode (resource and fuel consumption), and the electricity drives the electric motors. Afterburner turbine is practically not used. This allowed a sharp increase in% of stay at sea, and not downtime in the port for regulations.
    1. vlad_vlad
      vlad_vlad 11 October 2017 16: 19 New
      if Mr. Kaptsov does not understand German shipbuilders / sailors, then there are 2 alternatives for explaining XNUMX:
      1. or Mr. Kaptsov is dull
      2. or German shipbuilders / sailors are dumb.

      Respecting Mr. Kaptsov, I begin to worry about German mechanical engineering and Moreman's talents. or is it alternative 1?
      1. 32363
        32363 12 October 2017 00: 40 New
        Quote: vlad_vlad

        Respecting Mr. Kaptsov, I begin to worry about German mechanical engineering and Moreman's talents. or is it alternative 1?

        don’t worry, everything is in order with us and the knowledgeable Russians are well aware of this. good
  6. Serg65
    Serg65 11 October 2017 09: 06 New
    A viscous and viscous void fills the space.

    fellow With the return of Oleg, I thought it a sinful thing that you left us bully
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 11 October 2017 12: 22 New
      "All be back" ... laughing
  7. tasha
    tasha 11 October 2017 09: 12 New
    It seems to me that the comparison is not entirely appropriate.
    The Baden-Württemberg was built as a landing ship.
  8. cost 75
    cost 75 11 October 2017 09: 18 New
    Yes, I’m not confusing the author with anyone, it’s recognized from the first lines, but Oleg is right in something. It would be nice if some specialist in this topic explained what’s what.
  9. Lopatov
    Lopatov 11 October 2017 09: 39 New
    As an epilogue, you can add the following: in the construction of modern ships, large reserves are hidden. At change of conditions of technical creation, designers will easily realize any wishes of the customer. As easy as they can waste 7000 tons into emptiness.

    So is that bad? A large reserve of modernization in the face of uncertainty in the international situation.
  10. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 11 October 2017 09: 42 New
    And he rebel asks for the storm ... winked
    What to say what Nothing to say winked For "this song is endless ... Start over" laughing
    By the way, welcome Oleg hi Long time no see" drinks
    Times are changing, people are changing. Therefore, those who designed ships in the middle of the century will never understand those who are designing ships now. Different tasks for the current weapon, different views on volumes, weight ... Oleg, ALL OTHER! request It’s time to understand this. You ask the right questions that torment you - WHY SO? Yes, because life does not stand still, but moves forward yes See how aviation and tanks have changed over the same period of time! Why don't you compare them? wink Because there is nothing to compare. Today's will be stronger. So in the ships. At that time there were only conditions for conducting the battle with the weapons that were at that time. Today is different. Because the ships are different, therefore, the distribution of weight loads is different, therefore, the functions of the large volume of empty space, and therefore the speeds of the ships are those that are considered optimal for performing their tasks. Put on the “Baden-Württemberg” all the weapons reserved by the project and it will roll the “Cologne” of the 30s into a cake that he won’t even know where the threat comes from.
    And to pour from empty to empty for the past two years, bringing different ships in comparison - a sporting interest, or what? request
    But a lot of opinions have already been expressed during this time, and even people who are directly related to the shipbuilding industry have argued - but no, again the same thing laughing
    Article star, for really missed you fellow
    PS Oleg, for a long time there was no alternative with battleships fellow
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 11 October 2017 12: 32 New
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Article star, for really missed you

      laughing The VO site has become so boring that the return of Koptsov caused a storm of applause turning into a standing ovation !!! drinks
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 11 October 2017 12: 36 New
        But I wanted to ask a thread from someone about how Kaptsov is there. yes Well there was no half a year repeat
        And then bang - and joy on the face fellow fellow The answer itself drew drinks
        1. DrVintorez
          DrVintorez 11 October 2017 14: 07 New
          You can’t be without Oleg. In without Oleg like a boat without a chemist. Or a village without a fool.
  11. Snail N9
    Snail N9 11 October 2017 10: 00 New
    Well, how much can you write about what has happened since the 60s of the last century, just colossal changes in the approach to habitability, ergonomics of jobs and comfort for the crew. Now "in the West" adopted standards of habitability and comfort at times exceed those that were in the middle of the 20th century. This is precisely what led to the appearance of the article "excessive emptiness" and "excessive displacement", so unloved by the author ....
    1. Julio Jurenito
      Julio Jurenito 12 October 2017 09: 26 New
      I, however, did not understand: the task of the fleet is to serve and fight or ride in the comfort of tourists?
      1. DrVintorez
        DrVintorez 12 October 2017 17: 06 New
        the formula "staggered soldier / sailor - a good soldier / sailor" works only in peacetime so that no stupid things are done. during the military it is better to have a less rested soldier at disposal than a tired one.
  12. 75 hammer
    75 hammer 11 October 2017 10: 24 New
    And I liked the article, read it with interest. And always when I read the least I look at authorship. I myself am nostalgic for the times of iron and steam, and by the way it’s not a fact that armor in another version will not return to the fleet! It all depends on what means of destruction will be used!
  13. kig
    kig 11 October 2017 10: 55 New
    A new German frigates - for service in peacetime.

    From Wikipedia:
    Unlike frigates of the Bremen type, which were designed based on the concepts of using the fleet in the conditions of the Cold War, frigates of the F125 type will have the advanced capabilities for striking coastal targets, which are necessary for the alleged peacekeeping and peace enforcement operations. To this end, frigates are also equipped with non-lethal weapons.
  14. Kars
    Kars 11 October 2017 11: 25 New
    Cool. What else to say. Well that you do not forget the topic.
  15. Cartalon
    Cartalon 11 October 2017 12: 02 New
    In short, these pasudins are optimized for dispersal of demonstrations. am
  16. 32363
    32363 11 October 2017 12: 07 New
    we are building the frigates good
    1. ARES623
      ARES623 15 October 2017 17: 24 New
      Quote: 32363
      we are building the frigates

      In 2020, Americans will write off 11 Ticonderoga-class cruisers, stuffed with different weapons, from a 122-cell UVP, but still not protecting the freedom and independence of their homeland. It will take 30-40 years, exactly also write off this new frigate on the needles. Is it worth it to strain on its military significance? In short, the ship is good, especially for the sailors of the new European identity laughing
  17. dokusib
    dokusib 11 October 2017 12: 26 New
    A long time ago it was not visible. Welcome back!!! The boat really looks more like a yacht. A General from the National Hunt Features would have liked. To go fishing
  18. viktorch
    viktorch 11 October 2017 13: 39 New
    Why did everyone stick to the patrol frigate? Well, he indecently got sick, so what? they will build money, if a normal warship is needed, then they will build it too, since they don’t need it, there are no tasks, with whom to fight the Germans?
    1. Oleg7700
      Oleg7700 11 October 2017 14: 22 New
      Americans have long known that to attract the Germans to joint naval operations within the framework of NATO, without using the words “humanitarian”, “help”, “rescue”, “refugees”, “non-lethal”, etc. in the document. etc. - almost impossible. What are the “three-gun towers with a matte brilliant ammunition”: the traditional resource of sailors from the Northern coastal lands has been exhausted, few are attracted even to spacious cabins and a homely atmosphere despite the Bundeswehr’s positive advertisement - “Der nächste Schritt nach„ Die Rekruten “: Reality-TV aus dem Einsatz ". Israeli specialists from the Department of Advanced Arms of the Israeli Defense Ministry, together with the Germans designing the sub. boats and overhead. ships for the Navy, noted in an interview in Hebrew that the main problem of cooperation is to explain to German colleagues what real strike combat platforms are and what they are for. They say: - "they can, when the Germans are well pushed" ...
      1. viktorch
        viktorch 11 October 2017 15: 10 New
        they don’t need it now, and I don’t consider an epic feil patrolman in the displacement of a modern destroyer.
        it’s quite indicative that the Boschs do not save at all, and frigates with such a displacement are beaten that in case of such a problem they will be prevented from building not a liner frigate, but a destroyer with 10k displacement with stuffed weapons in each slot, but nothing.

        if historical parallels are drawn, then it is possible to draw them between the armored fleets of the WWII, and how the ships of the Anglitz grand fleet were raked from pennants with the same displacement of the Boshevsky construction site, there is no matter what a duel of comparable pennants, then the distribution of soup to the Bosh.
        1. Oleg7700
          Oleg7700 11 October 2017 16: 40 New
          It is true that the task set by the "credit managers" is then fulfilled. The German government has a lot of money, and developers and shipbuilders use this, under the generally accepted concept of a “citizen serviceman,” who should be comfortable in the first place.
        2. The comment was deleted.
  19. Insane
    Insane 11 October 2017 13: 48 New
    And in vain, the patriots are laughing. The void can be filled with additional weapons in non-peaceful times. Germany is not a banana republic, but a country with a powerful industry. There is something to think about.
    1. arkadiyssk
      arkadiyssk 11 October 2017 21: 35 New
      May it not be filled with anything. This is a soundly designed and soundly built ship. All right. It should not be regarded as an independent combat unit of the German fleet. This is the en fleet of the Russian Federation - where each boat is intended to be a death star. You need to look at him as part of the Allied fleet of NATO. This ship will act perfectly as an auxiliary in the AUG or expeditionary group. Or independently in peacekeeping operations in peacetime. We only need to envy them that they can afford it.
  20. Curious
    Curious 11 October 2017 14: 29 New
    Kaptsov urgently needs to unite with Samsonov from the "History" section. Then the readers of the site will be able to enjoy the entertaining reading that insidious Anglo-Saxons, in order to destroy the matrix of a certain superethnos, turned the brains of everything (including their own-this is insidiousness !!!) to shipbuilders, depriving them of the ability to book ships. And now roam the seas "shadow of the forgotten ancestors" with a displacement of armadillos and the thickness of the side of Chinese cars. And the end to this abuse of military shipbuilding is not visible. And if it were not for Kaptsov in the role of the armored Monosarovar from the mysterious Shambhala, the hope of the revival of real warships would die.
    1. Days
      Days 11 October 2017 17: 36 New
      And all this joy is the ornate syllable of comrade gridasov laughing
  21. qwests
    qwests 11 October 2017 15: 18 New
    Well, when the war begins, and it begins as always in the long-term, recruitment of volunteers at the military enlistment offices begins, design bureaus and shipyards begin cutting and inventing the necessary iron.
    while the enemy will think how to advance, the German shipbuilders will invent and do everything in a year or two.
    the main thing is that the enemy would not rush to victory.
    and then they’ll show how they can “stuff” emptiness.
  22. Ilya77
    Ilya77 11 October 2017 15: 49 New
    Write more ! It is better to read Oleg than the news about the sanctions, Ukraine, Syria and Samsonov.
  23. Romario_Argo
    Romario_Argo 11 October 2017 15: 54 New
    great article. not even supplement with anything (!)
  24. bombardy corgi
    bombardy corgi 11 October 2017 19: 56 New
    It seems to me that the author does not take into account all the design features of modern ships, and it’s not even a matter of comfort, of a modern frigate or destroyer, after the war, the approaches to using constructive protection changed, instead of armor, designers began to strengthen the set of hulls, frames, stringers, etc. since the ship was supposed to withstand the shock wave of a nuclear explosion, for example, the hull and superstructure of destroyers like “Arly Burke” were designed for overpressure in an explosion of 0,5 kg / cm² (Wikipedia) it is natural that a power set makes a significant contribution to displacement ...
  25. Falcon5555
    Falcon5555 11 October 2017 23: 30 New
    A viscous and viscous thought fills the brain. An inexplicable substance that does not owe time or space, but only to read Kaptsov’s articles! Its convolutions form patterns with such high degrees of symmetry that the brain seems to be an artificially created organism. laughing
  26. Gransasso
    Gransasso 12 October 2017 02: 13 New
    The author simply did not study or did not say anything for what purpose these 4 frigates are being created ... otherwise there would have been no questions about armament or about "free spaces" ... comparing a ship created for completely different purposes with a cruiser ... at least strange
  27. Nemesis
    Nemesis 12 October 2017 02: 28 New
    Everything is much simpler. A new ship, the real armament and capabilities of which are secret, and Moscow would not hurt to think about Kaliningrad and strengthen the Baltic Fleet of the Russian Federation, in which there is nothing but one, built on the old drawings, a new, “Wise” frigate and 4 corvettes 20380
  28. Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 13 October 2017 19: 18 New
    the Germans also got the hang of cutting budgets
  29. Mista_dj
    Mista_dj 5 November 2017 18: 44 New
    Stupid jerry embezzlers!
    Macieu Kaptsov - at once brought them to clean water!
  30. mvbmvbmvb
    mvbmvbmvb 26 February 2018 14: 44 New
    Quote: kos 75
    Yes, I’m not confusing the author with anyone, it’s recognized from the first lines, but Oleg is right in something. It would be nice if some specialist in this topic explained what’s what.

    It would be nice if experts spoke out here, and not amateurs with their “it seems to me”!