"Day of shame"

134
"Day of shame"

December 7, 1941 Japanese deck aviation dealt a sudden crushing blow to the Pacific the fleet US naval base in Hawaii Pearl Harbor. At the same time, Japanese troops and the fleet attacked the British, Dutch and American possessions in the Far East and the South Seas. The war began in the Pacific.

In the USA, Pearl Harbor was called the Day of Shame. Official propaganda in the United States explained that the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor, where the main strike forces of the American Pacific Fleet were destroyed and sunk in a matter of hours, was caused by the cunning of the Japanese aggressor. The American government allegedly craved peace, and the Japanese empire, having lulled the vigilance of Washington, delivered a sudden treacherous blow.



However, when World War II ended, it became clear that in Washington they could not have been unaware of the plans of the Japanese military and political leadership to attack Pearl Harbor. Then why was Pearl Harbor possible? It is obvious that the owners of the USA were pushing Japan towards Russia-the USSR. The Japanese were supposed to attack the USSR along with Hitler's "blond beasts", or a little later. In order to crush the Soviet (Russian) civilization and the Russian globalization project, which was based on the idea of ​​social justice, with a simultaneous blow from the west and east. At the same time, the Russians, Germans and Japanese had to drain their forces in this battle of the titans. As a result, the owners of the United States and Britain poisoned and destroyed their main competitors on the planet.

Even before the start of the big war in Europe, the United States and Britain secretly encouraged and supported the aggression of militarist Japan against China. If Nazi Germany was the western cudgel of the United States and England, then Japan was eastern. The masters of the West have long understood that it is best to fight with someone else's hands, someone else's "cannon fodder." With the tacit support of the United States, Japan occupied and robbed a large part of the Middle Kingdom. At the same time, the United States profited from the delivery weapons and other products and Japan, and China. China fell into even greater financial and economic dependence on the United States. The masters of the West very far-sightedly determined that sooner or later both the territories and the loot would go to them. The plunders in China, Korea and other countries of Southeast Asia have somehow appropriated the masters of the West. In addition, the war in the Pacific allowed the United States to strengthen and consolidate its military presence in the region. Including Japan itself, which has become a huge "unsinkable US aircraft carrier" off the coast of Russia and China.

According to the US plan, after the capture and plundering of most of China, Japan was to attack the eastern part of Great Russia (USSR) with all its might, to occupy Primorye, the Far East and Siberia. The secret US plan was supported by most of the Japanese generals. However, the Japanese have guessed that they want to use them. And they decided to strike a sudden blow to the United States, although they knew about different "weight categories" - the military and economic power of the United States exceeded the potential of the Japanese Empire by an order of magnitude. In the United States, having seen that Japan is turning south, they decided to use the attack of the Japanese armed forces to create the image of a “perfidious” aggressive Japan. The Japanese empire was turned into the main culprit, the instigator, who unleashed the slaughter in the Asia-Pacific region. And the owners of the United States and England, who unleashed the war in the Asia-Pacific region, remained in the shadows.

Towards World War II

Initially, Japan’s aggression was encouraged by Britain and the United States. It was London and Washington that armed Japan and helped it to build a modern, first-class navy. Then Japan was thrown against China and the Russian Empire. During the First World War, Japan threw "bone" - allowed to seize the possession of the German Empire. The collapse of the Russian Empire and the Civil War allowed Japan to begin the seizure of Russia's Far Eastern possessions. However, the intervention failed and the Japanese, like other invaders, had to get out of Russia.

In Japan itself, despite the alliance with the Anglo-Saxons, directed against the Middle Kingdom and Russia, they saw that for domination of the Pacific Ocean, it was necessary to put an end to the colonial, predatory claims of Great Britain and the USA. The Japanese empire sooner or later had to face the United States in the struggle for hegemony in the Asia-Pacific region. The alliance with the Anglo-Saxons was justified while Japan benefited from it. At the same time, Tokyo was thinking about how to limit American influence in the Pacific and the Far East. How to expel Western colonizers from Asia and take their place. The question of which civilization, Eastern or Western, dominated the earth was decided. Thus, the battle of predators has been brewing for a long time.

The United States also believed that war with Japan was inevitable. American H. Lee already in the year 1909 in the book "The Valor of Ignorance" described the future Japanese-American war. He described how the US outposts would fall - the Philippines, Hawaii and Alaska in the hands of the Japanese. The book was very popular among Japanese officers. The book was simply translated into Japanese: “The war between Japan and America.” In 1925, the columnist for the British newspaper The Daily Telegraph published a book, The Great Pacific War. The journalist predicted a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor.

The military also believed that there would be war, and they were developing appropriate plans. Up until the second half of the 1930, the American military strategists assumed that the United States and Japan would face off against each other. For the same reason, and in the interests of maintaining military secrecy, the plan of war with Japan was encrypted as “one-color” - the plan “Orange” (“Orange”). When in 1936-1937 the axis Berlin - Rome - Tokyo arose, it was necessary to bear in mind the possibility of a coalition war. Appeared "multicolored" plans. The main plan was “Rainbow-2” (“Rainbow”). It provided for concerted action by the United States, Britain and France. The British and French were to take the front in Europe; Americans - in the Pacific. With the assumed correlation of forces and taking into account the distances, Washington believed that the Philippines and Guam would have to surrender at the first stage of the war. They will be recaptured at the final stage of the war. The Rainbow 2 Plan was approved by the United States 30 July 1939 Joint Council. In accordance with it, preparations were made for war with Japan. If necessary, changes were made to the plan.

The plan unreservedly recognized the extreme importance of Hawaii as a US naval base. The US Pacific Fleet, created by order of President W. Wilson in June 1919, was repeatedly advanced to the Hawaiian Islands in 1920 and was based in Pearl Harbor on Oahu. In 1932, the Americans themselves worked out the scenario of a naval base bombardment, which was later used by the Japanese. The Americans conducted the fleet exercises in conjunction with ground forces in Hawaii. The commander of the "aggressors" G. Yarnell with the squadron came from bases in California. At sea, he rebuilt his squadron: he left the battleships and cruisers in the rear guard, and advanced the aircraft carriers "Saratoga" and "Lexington". In Hawaii, waiting for the traditional battle, with the use of battleships, but miscalculated. Yarnell in the morning of February 7 40 miles from Hawaii raised 152 aircraft from aircraft carriers. They struck at airfields near Pearl Harbor and won complete air supremacy.

These exercises showed that naval aviation is capable of delivering a powerful blow to the fleet and the base as a whole. The lesson was clear. However, the relevant conclusions are not made. On the contrary, they read that it was an accident and the aircraft carriers would be destroyed, and the attacking aircraft would suffer heavy losses. In Japan, they also carefully studied the results of the maneuvers, but came to other conclusions. In 1936, the Japanese Naval Academy released "Research on strategy and tactics in operations against the United States." Japanese analysts concluded: "In the case of the main forces of the American fleet in Pearl Harbor, hostilities should be opened with sudden air strikes." The US military maneuvers of 1937 have confirmed this conclusion. At this time, a squadron advanced to the Hawaii, which had aircraft carrying about 400 aircraft. Again, the American airfields of Oahu were suddenly "destroyed" from the air, and the next day the "aggressor" calmly landed troops. Thus, both the Americans and the Japanese knew that the possibility of a sudden air strike exists.

The American admirals then drove their squadrons to Hawaii from naval bases in California. The arrival of the American fleet in the Hawaiian Islands usually coincided with the aggravation of the international situation. The permanent bases of the Pacific Fleet were located on the west coast of America, where the ships returned after their stay in Hawaii. When the 1 of September of the 1939 of the year began a big war in Europe, the layout of the American fleet was changed. From the beginning of 1940, the main forces of the Pacific Fleet were concentrated in Hawaii, first under the pretext of the exercises, and since May 1940, the fleet received an official order to stay at Pearl Harbor for an indefinite time. According to the command of the US armed forces, the ships in Hawaii were completely safe. Relying on Pearl Harbor, the fleet could act effectively against Japan in the event of war and exert military-political pressure on it in peacetime.

In Japan at that time there were two parties of militarists. The army command supported the war with the USSR. The Kwantung Army was aimed at the Soviet Far East and it was constantly strengthened. The fleet, on the other hand, demanded in advance to occupy the colonies of the Western powers in the South Seas in order to provide the Japanese Empire with resources for further struggle for supremacy in Asia and the Pacific. The naval command was acutely aware of the limited economic and resource potential of Japan, which determined the naval strategy. The Japanese knew that the shipyards of the country could not compete with the American shipbuilding; in the future battle they relied not on quantitative, but on qualitative superiority. The goal was to create a balanced naval force, which was based on first-class battleships. The flagship of the Japanese fleet - the battleship "Yamato" was the largest warship of its time.


Japanese battleship "Yamato"

At the end of 1930, Japan’s strategy began to change. The impetus for this was the success of aviation development. Some Japanese naval commanders came to the conclusion that the use of aircraft from aircraft carriers against warships makes it possible to gain superiority over the superior forces of the enemy. The Japanese began to build large aircraft carriers at the time. Japan received the world's best carrier-based aircraft in 1941, and the 1 th air fleet was the first major aircraft carrier strike in the world. The admirals of the Japanese linear fleet considered this a dangerous delusion, but supporters of deck aircraft were able to insist on their own.

The immediate tasks of the Pacific War in Tokyo saw the occupation of a vast area in the south and the creation of a defensive perimeter along the line connecting the Kuril and Marshall Islands, the Bismarck Archipelago, the Islands of Timor, Java, Sumatra, and Malaya and Burma. The attack on the western colonies inevitably led to war with the United States, England and Holland. If England and Holland in Japan at that time were not afraid, the United States was a serious threat. America had superiority in the economy, the armed forces and the resource base. The appearance in the theater of military operations of the strong Pacific Fleet of the United States could disrupt plans for the rapid capture of the South Seas area and lead to a delay in hostilities. As a result, Japan would be involved in a protracted war, a war of attrition. For such a war, Japan was not ready and could not withstand it. America surpassed Japan in a protracted war in all respects.

The new commander of the United Fleet, Admiral Yoroku Yamamoto, directly told the then head of government, Prince Canoe: “If they tell me to fight, then in the first six to twelve months of the war against the United States and England I will act swiftly and demonstrate a continuous chain of victories. But I must warn you: if the war lasts two or three years, I’m not sure about the ultimate victory. ” In the case of a long war with the United States, Yamamoto wrote, “it is not enough for us to take Guam and the Philippines, even Hawaii and San Francisco. We will need to take Washington and sign a peace treaty in the White House. ”

It was necessary to neutralize the American fleet. There was a question - how? The admirals of the "battleships" offered the traditional option - sea battle. Meet the American fleet on the way to Japan and give battle. However, such a scenario jeopardized plans for seizures in the main direction - the South Seas. Innovators in the naval business have offered their own version. The commander of the United Fleet, Isoroku Yamamoto, proposed simultaneously with an offensive in the south to strike at Pearl Harbor from the air.

A sudden, swift and successful attack on the main forces of the American fleet could radically change the situation in the Pacific. Yamamoto said: "When studying stories The Russian-Japanese war is the most important lesson for me - our fleet began it with a night attack on the Russians in Port Arthur. In my opinion, this is the most outstanding strategic achievement of the war. Unfortunately, we did not complete the attack and did not achieve fully satisfactory results. ” Yamamoto was determined not to repeat this mistake. The plane, which replaced the ship as the main strike vehicle of the fleet, was to help in this matter. Yamamoto and his supporters in 1930-ies made great efforts to prepare the carrier-based aircraft for the new war. By 1941, Japan had aircraft carriers, and a significant number of experienced pilots and navigators for carrier-based aircraft.

The news that the US Pacific Fleet is now permanently based at Pearl Harbor has added weight to the arguments of supporters of an air strike. In addition, from Europe came news about the successful use of naval aviation. On the night of November 11 1940, the English aircraft carrier "Illustrious" approached 170 miles to the Italian base Taranto in the Ionian Sea and lifted the torpedo bomber into 21. Navigators on a bright moonlit night successfully led the strike team to the goal. Torpedoes hit the target. Three Italian battleships were hit in the harbor of Taranto: one sank, the other two were seriously damaged and were permanently incapacitated. The lessons of Taranto have been celebrated both in the USA and in Japan.

To be continued ...
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  1. +14
    29 September 2017 06: 40
    Another set of pseudo-historical nonsense on the topic "the damned Anglo-Saxons could not sleep, they longed to destroy the USSR." This does not belong in the "History" section.
    1. +16
      29 September 2017 08: 59
      What does pseudo-history mean? This, unfortunately, is a historical fact! What can you say about the British plan of military operations against the Soviet Union, developed in the spring of 1945, Operation Unthinkable? On July 1, 1945, 47 English and American divisions without any declaration of war, supported by 10-12 German divisions, which the Allies held in Schleswig-Holstein and in southern Denmark were supposed to strike at the USSR ... And the plan for a nuclear attack on Soviet cities is Dropshot "from 1957? As I understand it, this is solely from good-neighborly feelings and deep humanity of the Anglo-Saxons !?
      And on this issue, I am deeply convinced that the Pentagon and special services, perhaps even deliberately substituting the top leadership of the United States, specifically brought to the situation that happened - this gave good dividends, plus a surge of mass patriotism and hatred of yellow-faced comrades! The American public even approved nuclear attacks on civilians, and without Pearl Harbor, this would be problematic to explain.
      1. +7
        29 September 2017 11: 22
        Quote: Finches
        What does pseudo-history mean? This, unfortunately, is a historical fact!

        These trolls, which always graze around the articles of A. Samsonov, constantly have the same song:
        Quote: Snakebyte
        Another set of pseudo-historical nonsense .. This does not belong in the "History" section.

        These zombies believe that everything they ponder should be perceived by others as an unapproachable truth and declare any scientifically substantiated article to be a "conspiracy theory," without explaining at all what they mean by this. Apparently, A. Samsonov’s articles got them great, and in this connection I consider it my duty to help the author in every way the right to a truly scientific approach to describing the events of the past, which is difficult because of the powerful opposition, but it is urgent and urgent for all of us.
        1. +2
          29 September 2017 16: 01
          In order to crush the Soviet (Russian) civilization and the Russian project of globalization with a simultaneous blow from the west and the east, which was based on the idea of ​​social justice

          According to the US plan, after the capture and plunder of most of China, Japan had to use all forces to attack the eastern part of Great Russia (USSR

          The “truly scientific approach” to the description of historical processes is so direct and shining.
      2. +1
        29 September 2017 11: 45
        I probably agree that it is better to transfer to the "Opinions" section. But only because of the unproven Anglo-Saxon influence on Japan and enticing them on us.
      3. +9
        29 September 2017 13: 10
        Operation Unthinkable :))) Do you know anything about it at all? :)
        At the end of the war, Churchill was very afraid that the USSR would go further and not stop at taming Germany. Therefore, he invited the British and American generals to think over an operation to defend Europe now against the Soviet invasion. The Americans turned a finger at the temple and sent a descendant of the Dukes of Marlborough ... far away, the British had to obey. They just planned an attempt to confront and issued a sad verdict: the Red Army will bring the United American-Anglo-German troops from Europe forward with their feet:
        a) fast
        b) Qualitatively
        c) Not really and straining
        After this conclusion, Sir Winston yearned and did not experience more illusions about the confrontation.
        In general, there was no conspiracy there, and Churchill's banal eccentricity
        As for Dropshot - do you think we didn’t have a war plan against the USA? The military is always preparing for the worst job, it makes no sense to see a conspiracy here. We now have plans for a war with NATO, but this does not mean that we are aggressors
        1. +4
          29 September 2017 13: 26
          Do you advocate? Well, well ... I won’t enter into a discussion with you, because I don’t see any contradictions in my post - they sent Churchill somewhere or not, but the fact remains: at that time we didn’t have such plans and if we started to get clever , then the Red Army ceased to exist in that name in 1922 ... As for Churchill’s “eccentricities,” they were transformed first into the famous speech in Fulton, and then, in 1949, into the NATO bloc, which immediately included 12 countries, including the USA! hi
          1. +3
            29 September 2017 18: 06
            Quote: Finches
            Do you advocate?

            I’m rather doing it
            Quote: Finches
            I will not enter into a discussion with you, because I do not see contradictions in my post

            It’s sad. If you don’t even see contradictions here, then ...
            Churchill did not intend to attack, but he was considering events in case of violation of the USSR's previously reached agreements
            Quote: Finches
            and if they began to become clever, then the Red Army ceased to exist in a similar name in 1922 ...

            Yes. And you should know that the reduction in spacecraft did not take root, so the usual practice of Internet communication is to name the Red Army before 1946 and the SA after. But if you are going to play grammarnazism - if you please. With what fright do you call Operation "The Unthinkable" PLAN? Do you know what a plan is? This is a very serious document, or rather, the mass of documents that is formed after the staff has worked through the operation and all the necessary orders have been prepared for the commanders + a bunch of logistic calculations and so on and so forth. And in the case of Operation Unthinkable, there was no plan - Churchill outlined the task, the generals analyzed the possibility of its implementation and presented conclusions. Now, if Churchill authorized the development of the plan based on the results of these conclusions, the plan would have appeared. But he did not authorize.
            So do not confuse the plan with an analytical note.
        2. +1
          29 September 2017 13: 31
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Operation Unthinkable :))) Do you know anything about it at all? :)
          At the end of the war, Churchill was very afraid that the USSR would go further and not stop at taming Germany. Therefore, he invited the British and American generals to think over an operation to defend Europe now against the Soviet invasion. The Americans turned a finger at the temple and sent a descendant of the Dukes of Marlborough ... far away, the British had to obey. They just planned an attempt to confront and issued a sad verdict: the Red Army will bring the United American-Anglo-German troops from Europe forward with their feet:
          a) fast
          b) Qualitatively
          c) Not really and straining
          After this conclusion, Sir Winston yearned and did not experience more illusions about the confrontation.
          In general, there was no conspiracy there, and Churchill's banal eccentricity
          As for Dropshot - do you think we didn’t have a war plan against the USA? The military is always preparing for the worst job, it makes no sense to see a conspiracy here. We now have plans for a war with NATO, but this does not mean that we are aggressors




          Hello ... can you tell me a little more about ".. They just planned an attempt to confront and delivered a sad verdict: the Red Army will bring the United American-Anglo-German troops from Europe forward with their feet:
          a) fast
          b) Qualitatively
          c) Not really and straining ... "?



          Or a link ... if it’s easy
          1. +4
            29 September 2017 17: 51
            The link is very simple - the very text of the conclusion of the English general is here http://www.coldwar.ru/bases/operation-unthinkable
            . Php
            But it needs to be read between the lines, because this is the style of the staff presentation of the British generals. In short, this passage is:
            Land Campaign in Northeast Europe
            25. The ability to attract allied forces to offensive operations will be determined to a large extent by how much of them will be connected with the need to restore and protect communications in the destroyed regions of Germany.
            26. Taking this part into account, as well as the forces necessary to ensure the security of the front north to the Dresden Chemnitz line, we estimate that we receive about 47 divisions, including 14 armored divisions that can be involved in offensive operations.
            27. The Russians, in response, according to our estimates, will be able to put forth forces equivalent to 170 allied divisions, of which 0 divisions are armored. Thus, we will encounter an inequality of forces in approximately a ratio of two to one in the armored forces and four to one in the ground forces.
            28. It is difficult to assess the extent to which our advantage in tactical aviation and in command and control would help restore balance (of forces), but given their inequality indicated above, launching an offensive would be definitely a risky undertaking.

            says that there is absolutely nothing to count on allies on land and some superiority in aviation will not save them
            1. +1
              29 September 2017 18: 26
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              The link is very simple - the very text of the conclusion of the English general is here http://www.coldwar.ru/bases/operation-unthinkable
              . Php
              But it needs to be read between the lines, because this is the style of the staff presentation of the British generals. In short, this passage is:
              Land Campaign in Northeast Europe
              25. The ability to attract allied forces to offensive operations will be determined to a large extent by how much of them will be connected with the need to restore and protect communications in the destroyed regions of Germany.
              26. Taking this part into account, as well as the forces necessary to ensure the security of the front north to the Dresden Chemnitz line, we estimate that we receive about 47 divisions, including 14 armored divisions that can be involved in offensive operations.
              27. The Russians, in response, according to our estimates, will be able to put forth forces equivalent to 170 allied divisions, of which 0 divisions are armored. Thus, we will encounter an inequality of forces in approximately a ratio of two to one in the armored forces and four to one in the ground forces.
              28. It is difficult to assess the extent to which our advantage in tactical aviation and in command and control would help restore balance (of forces), but given their inequality indicated above, launching an offensive would be definitely a risky undertaking.

              says that there is absolutely nothing to count on allies on land and some superiority in aviation will not save them




              "... but given their inequality indicated above, launching an offensive would be definitely a risky undertaking. ..."



              I see that the British generals quite rightly believe that deploying an ATTACK with such a balance of power is, to put it mildly, risky ...


              From this to your conclusions that "....
              They just planned an attempt to confront and issued a sad verdict: the Red Army will bring the United American-Anglo-German troops from Europe forward with their feet:
              a) fast
              b) Qualitatively
              c) Not really and straining ... "? ..." - a rather big distance
              1. +1
                30 September 2017 00: 21
                Quote: Gransasso
                From this to your conclusions that "....

                Just a couple of decades of studying history :))) My friend, go read the documents of the British General Staff on the Second World War. Perhaps in a few years you will be able to understand what the British generals wrote about in this or that case.
                1. +2
                  30 September 2017 00: 38
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Quote: Gransasso
                  From this to your conclusions that "....

                  Just a couple of decades of studying history :))) My friend, go read the documents of the British General Staff on the Second World War. Perhaps in a few years you will be able to understand what the British generals wrote about in this or that case.



                  The demon of arrogance has infiltrated you, My friend .. and this beast is smarter than you throwing people into a puddle ...


                  I understand that you have reached the levels of Vanga, bringing to us mortals the secret thoughts of the British General Staff ... but the spacecraft of the spring 1945 sample is the last gasp ... scrubbing the bastards 17 year old child who was dressing, dressed, fed, armed allies ....

                  Which would hardly have continued to do this if they had been rocking against them ... Comrade Stalin was smarter than you in this regard and therefore didn’t really rock the boat when Europe was divided .. that they gave something and took .. no tidbits ..


                  This is not even remembering the amer atomic bombs that were ready by then ... and even hot Georgian heads could quickly sober up ...


                  But I repeat ... the Georgians were still more informed than you .. he spiritualistic sessions on deciphering the thoughts of the British could not be done .. He relied on objective reality only ..
                  1. +2
                    30 September 2017 02: 10
                    Quote: Gransasso
                    about the spacecraft of the sample of spring 1945 is the army on its last legs ... scrubbing the bastards 17-year-old child who was wearing shoes, dressed, fed, armed allies ....

                    Kruuugom! Teaching materiel, step march!
                    Honestly - after such nonsense, there’s nothing more to talk about. Have you ever read American memoirs, how in the 1945th their tankers with several hours of driving were thrown under the panzerwaffe tracks ... The Soviet army was on its last legs, yeah :)))))
                    1. +1
                      30 September 2017 02: 22
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Quote: Gransasso
                      about the spacecraft of the sample of spring 1945 is the army on its last legs ... scrubbing the bastards 17-year-old child who was wearing shoes, dressed, fed, armed allies ....

                      Kruuugom! Teaching materiel, step march!
                      Honestly - after such nonsense, there’s nothing more to talk about. Have you ever read American memoirs, how in the 1945th their tankers with several hours of driving were thrown under the panzerwaffe tracks ... The Soviet army was on its last legs, yeah :)))))




                      Yeah ... and 1 Garand for three was given out .. and a half tens of millions of men the Americans had already lost by the spring of the 45th ... and the women had given birth to new ones ...


                      Whether it’s the case of the Red Army, well-fed, contented, rested ... with an unbroken country behind ... not to fight another couple of years ....



                      Go further spiritualistic sessions .. follower of blind Bulgarian data
                      1. +3
                        30 September 2017 11: 44
                        Quote: Gransasso
                        Yeah ... and 1 Garand for three gave out ..

                        And again they trampled on post-perestroika ravings about one rifle for three.
                        Quote: Gransasso
                        a half a dozen million men Americans lost by the spring of the 45th

                        According to various (reasonable) estimates, the ratio of losses on the Eastern Front was from 2 to 3 to 3 to 4.
                        Quote: Gransasso
                        Go further spiritualistic sessions.

                        No, I’d better continue reading American memoirs :))))) Very interesting reading, I highly recommend :)))
                        And you can still read Otto Carius, he is a German, he fought on the Eastern and Western Front. His assessment - 30 Americans pose less threat than five Soviet soldiers :)
                        In short, the USSR by 1945 had an excellent and numerous army, the Americans themselves estimated that they were equipped with weapons and so on as “space”, while the USSR was able to supply this army with almost everything necessary and also had strong strategic reserves (including due to Lend-Lease). At the same time, the armies of the USA and England, which had just survived the rapid deployment only in their most combat-ready units (the divisions that fought in Africa and / or Italy) somehow corresponded to the average Soviet division. The rest are green, with novice officers and soldiers, in fact, they were grease for the trucks. Of course, if the USA had fought a couple more years, a combat-ready army would have appeared in them too, only no one would have given them these two years
                  2. +1
                    30 September 2017 20: 52
                    I adhere to the point of view of Andrei, two or three months and the SA would have washed the boots in the Atlantic, nuclear weapons were air delivery, but the sky over Europe was practically ours.
                    They shot down everything that flew (A. Pokryshkin wrote in his memoirs that he knocked out two "fortresses" due to the opening of "friendly fire")
                    Now think, if there was a batch with atomic weapons, who would have flown somewhere, would have flown?
        3. +2
          29 September 2017 13: 51
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Operation Unthinkable :))) What do you know about her at all?:) .. The Americans turned a finger at the temple and sent a descendant of the Dukes of Marlborough ... far,

          Here you forget the basic tasks of leadership of the United States in WWII! Despite the fact that A. Hitler was sponsored by absolutely all key banking houses of the USA and England and even France, each of these countries also had their own interests, in particular, the United States was economically profitable by defeating the British Empire, which they did when help from both Hitler and the USSR (which was technically helped, creating economic power from scratch, which, by the way, was the famine of the early 30s). Forgetting the particular tasks of each particular country, you get amazing conclusions that clearly do not correspond to the reality and state of the politics of that time, and it was precisely on all these contradictions that Stalin managed to play at that time in the camp of the “allies”, taking away another gift from our country , for which he is even worth respecting.
          1. +1
            29 September 2017 17: 46
            Quote: venaya
            Here you forget the basic tasks of leadership of the United States in WWII!

            Unlike supporters of all kinds of conspiracies, I remember them very well :))) I answered in the comments below on all the questions raised
            1. +4
              29 September 2017 19: 56
              Andrei, you didn’t refute the fact of the desire to destroy our country by the Anglo-Saxons, albeit at the level of an analytical note, but not a plan ... I’m glad for you that you are trying to be objective, but it doesn’t work out very well, please bring any of our plans or an analytical note on the destruction of the West, as aggressive as what I gave you an example! Just don’t think too much, because Churchill personally mentions what I wrote in his memoirs ... hi
              1. +1
                29 September 2017 20: 18
                Quote: Finches
                Andrei, you didn’t refute the fact of the desire to destroy our country by the Anglo-Saxons, albeit at the level of an analytical note, but not a plan ... I’m glad for you that you are trying to be objective, but it doesn’t work out very well, please bring any of our plans or an analytical note on the destruction of the West, as aggressive as what I gave you an example! Just don’t think too much, because Churchill personally mentions what I wrote in his memoirs ... hi




                http://inosmi.ru/russia/20150717/229147503.html
                1. +3
                  29 September 2017 21: 20
                  Thank you! And the plan is where - the code name, goals, objectives ... Confirmation with quotes from memoirs of the first persons of the state ... You would have made a link to Rezun!
                  1. +1
                    29 September 2017 21: 35
                    Quote: Finches
                    Thank you! And the plan is where - the code name, goals, objectives ... Confirmation with quotes from memoirs of the first persons of the state ... You would have made a link to Rezun!



                    Russian-white written to you, the plans of the USSR of that period are still state secrets and not declassified ... there is only a part that concerned the participation of the countries of the former Warsaw Treaty and which these countries declassified
                    1. +4
                      29 September 2017 21: 41
                      I did not expect another - Stra-a-a-ah-shnaya ta-ah-naa! laughing Secret protocols, such as declassified, but not here ....!

                      "Young friend, always be young! You do not rush to grow up! Be cheerful, bold, noisy! Do you need to fight? So fight!"

                      We want to conquer the Earth, so NATO is expanding to the East ... laughing
                      1. +1
                        29 September 2017 21: 49
                        Quote: Finches
                        I did not expect another - Stra-a-a-ah-shnaya ta-ah-naa! laughing Secret protocols, such as declassified, but not here ....!

                        "Young friend, always be young! You do not rush to grow up! Be cheerful, bold, noisy! Do you need to fight? So fight!"

                        We want to conquer the Earth, so NATO is expanding to the East ... laughing



                        And your intellect is not visited by such a simple idea that most of those Soviet plans are still relevant now and therefore are still kept secret?



                        Or do you seriously think that the USSR was pumping trillions of rubles into tens of thousands of nuclear warheads and their delivery vehicles and did not make plans for their use? ... maybe they thought to shy away? .. do you think the Politburo and the USSR Ministry of Defense (RF) are idiots?




                        Or do you have cognitive difficulties?
              2. +2
                30 September 2017 00: 29
                Quote: Finches
                Andrei, you didn’t refute the fact of the desire to destroy our country by the Anglo-Saxons, albeit at the level of an analytical note, but not a plan ...

                I apologize, but it was you who did not prove the desire of the Anglo-Saxons to destroy our country, at least at the level of an analytical note :)))
      4. +4
        30 September 2017 00: 37
        This historical reality is only in the imagination of illiterate authors who impose the political situation of 1945 on 1941.
        It was in the 45th USSR that controlled half of Europe and had the most powerful land army.
        And in the 41st, and even more so earlier, everyone in the USSR did not care, he was militarily set to the maximum level of Poland.
        As for Pearl Harbor, he was no provocation. There was no need to substitute the entire fleet for the sake of war. The provocations were actually planned (and it was precisely the political leadership, the fleet did not particularly like this idea), but of a much more modest scale - small ships were being prepared in the Philippines, which, under the military flag, should have been in the way of the Japanese battle groups heading to capture Indonesia. It was expected that the Japanese would drive away these ships with fire, which would give occasion to enter the war.
        This is the real story, it is documented. In contrast to similar articles, where some speculation, a little seasoned with real facts to give credibility.
        1. +2
          30 September 2017 10: 34
          I like the guys from the sect "Truth in the last resort" laughing
          1. 0
            30 September 2017 12: 37
            Since pseudo-patriots turned to individuals, then they have nothing to cover.
            1. +1
              30 September 2017 19: 47
              OK! You convinced me! The meaninglessness of our dialogue ... I will, with your permission, remain in my "pseudo-patriotic" position, and you remain in your position of unlimited love for the Anglo-Saxons and their interpretation of the history of human civilization .... hi
              1. 0
                1 October 2017 16: 44
                How convenient, anyone who calls nonsense and delirium by his name is an Anglo-Saxon lover.
                Rather, release a sequel, otherwise your followers-sectarians, for lack of reading, can also pay attention to real history. So the flock will not be lost for long.
          2. 0
            30 September 2017 13: 10
            Quote: Finches
            I like the guys from the sect "Truth in the last resort"

            You can’t imagine how glad I am for the supporters of conspiracy theories that completely ignore the scientific approach, both in terms of evidence, and in terms of banal logic :)))
            1. +1
              30 September 2017 19: 47
              And you, an Anglo-Saxon lover, convinced me the same ... hi
    2. +7
      29 September 2017 09: 26
      "This does not belong in the" History "section." ////

      The author is very consistent in this thread.
      He has a clear installation:
      "everything that has happened on planet Earth for the last 300-400 years -
      it’s an insidious war of Great Britain and the USA against Russia. "
      Therefore, it doesn’t matter if Pearl Harbor or Pearl is any other: "... this is insidious ..." (see above) winked laughing
      1. +4
        29 September 2017 09: 59
        You do not try to hide your roots with the Masons and Reptilians of the conspiracy, the author has already pointed out the subversive activities of the masters of the West during the time of Rurik and Svyatoslav.
        1. +1
          29 September 2017 11: 45
          Massons in the days of Rurik? !!!
          1. +5
            29 September 2017 13: 11
            No. In reptilian times
        2. 0
          29 September 2017 14: 58
          Quote: Cartalon
          You’re either trying to hide your roots with the Masons and Reptilians of the conspiracy.

          1. +1
            29 September 2017 17: 44
            And what did you do to him? Really sinned? A very strange reptiloid bent over. All around are gay, even shepherds and reptilians.
        3. 0
          29 September 2017 19: 24
          The hosts from Nibiru ordered us to blame everything on Great Britain and the USA in order to “hide the headquarters”, so to speak. And where do we simple Freemasons in the World Government compete with reptilians? Go explain to the dumbass Obama about something about the greatness of the plans of the insidious war ... crying
      2. +1
        29 September 2017 10: 17
        Quote: voyaka uh
        it’s an insidious war of Great Britain and the USA against Russia. "


        But we all know that these are puppets. The main puppeteer is Israel. And it doesn’t matter that at that moment he did not exist
        1. +3
          29 September 2017 13: 52
          Quote: sergo1914
          But we all know that these are puppets. The main puppeteer is Israel.

          Now the reptilians are upset! laughing
      3. +1
        29 September 2017 12: 50
        Quote: voyaka uh
        The author is very consistent in this thread.
        He has a clear installation:
        "everything that has happened on planet Earth for the last 300-400 years -
        it’s an insidious war of Great Britain and the USA against Russia. "
        Therefore, it doesn’t matter if Pearl Harbor or Pearl is any other: "... this is insidious ..." (see above)

        Do not get off! Englishwoman, Englishwoman, but the water in the tap, these are your tricks! wassat (puts on a foil hat) laughing
  2. +3
    29 September 2017 07: 09
    "Day of shame"
    What the United States should be separately "grateful" to its then president, Roosevelt, and his difficult relationship with Congress and the Senate.
  3. +6
    29 September 2017 07: 21
    Yes, there was no suddenness. Americans leaked pearl harbor. They needed a reason for war. Let me remind you that after the WWII, the Americans vowed to fight on foreign territory. Uncle Roosevelt played in the election. Therefore, in order to unleash a “righteous” war, which the American people would support, we needed a sheep to slaughter .. and it became a pearl harbor. For decades, nothing has changed. Recall September 11th. And by the way, the entry of the United States into WWI is also a big question .. who drowned someone there .. in general, the years are different, but there is only one scheme.
    1. +5
      29 September 2017 07: 31
      You yourself understand what you are writing. The Japanese hit first. This is the reason. Was the Americans ready or not this is the second time. If pearl Harbor was ready to strike and fought off after knocking down all the Japanese, then their attack would still be a pretext for war. Think a little bit.
      1. +1
        29 September 2017 08: 01
        You first read what and how. What served as a prerequisite for war, why it was so, and then think and analyze. If you can of course. if it was an isolated case, otherwise I would only list 3 for you. When the US entered the war. it is so offhand.
        Maybe you still do not let God believe in the attack of terrorists on skyscrapers? chur me.
        1. +2
          29 September 2017 08: 25
          I read a lot about this event and I think that all these conspiracy theories are stupid nonsense. There is an attack by the Japanese and disgusting logistics in passing orders from the Americans. As for the US economic pressure on Japan, this is certainly a chic occasion for a war for psychos. The Japanese diverged too much in the Pacific and the Americans entered sanctions against the obvious aggressor quite rightly.
          1. avt
            +4
            29 September 2017 09: 38
            Quote: Ken71
            The Japanese diverged too much in the Pacific and the Americans entered sanctions against the obvious aggressor quite rightly.

            bully ,, Reader a lot "will not tell us from what has been read
            Quote: Ken71
            I read a lot about this event and I think that all these conspiracy theories are stupid nonsense.

            WHEN did the USA itself impose economic sanctions against Japan and cut off in particular oil supplies? Well BEFORE the attack on the Pearl, or AFTER?
            Quote: Amurets
            "Our negotiations with Japan have virtually ceased. There is no hope that Japan will continue them ... If a war cannot be avoided ... I repeat, if war cannot be avoided, then the United States wants Japan to take the first step. .. "

            request Well said
            “Do not give sanctuary to the dogs and do not throw your pearls before the pigs, lest they trample it underfoot with their feet and, turning, do not tear you to pieces” (Matthew 7: 6).
            What is actually confirmed here and now
            Quote: Ken71
            I read a lot about this event and I think that all these conspiracy theories are stupid nonsense.

            And the result of the read
            Quote: Ken71
            Actually, the Japanese attacked.
            1. +2
              29 September 2017 09: 55
              Dear emerge from your self and articulate what you want to say. No Bible quotes possible.
            2. +5
              29 September 2017 14: 04
              I understand the desire of the current patriots to present all opponents of the United States as poor unfortunate victims - but still a measure must be taken. 30s Japan wasn’t at all a sweet, cute kawaii nyashka, but an aggressive regime, weighed down by a sense of racial superiority and ambition. "gather eight corners of the world under one roof". Leading a long and bloody war in China, condemned even by the League of Nations.
              At the time of the Japanese capture of Mukden in Geneva, the Council of the League of Nations met, in which there were representatives of Japan and China. China immediately turned to the League of Nations on the basis of Article 11 of its Charter. The League of Nations Council decided that Japanese troops should be withdrawn from Manchuria no later than November 16. Japan paid no attention to this gesture of the League of Nations.

              Quote: avt
              WHEN did the USA itself impose economic sanctions against Japan and cut off in particular oil supplies? Well BEFORE the attack on the Pearl, or AFTER?

              The USA began even after the Nanking massacre. And they consistently limited Japan to sanctions after all of her trepidations in China.
              Who made Japan so dependent on oil supplies exclusively from the Allied fields (90% of the volume of oil supplies and 80% of the tonnage of the tanker fleet)?
        2. +2
          29 September 2017 10: 43
          All conspiracy theorists have one big hole in the argument - if the US knew about the Pearl Harbor attack, then why didn't they prepare for it? Usually they answer this question that they say it was necessary for the USA to suffer a severe defeat, otherwise the people would not take a nap. Shaped nonsense, given that the heavy defeat of the fleet in Pearl Harbor could easily lead Roosevelt’s office to resign. Why did the latter carefully conceal the extent of the losses at Pearl Harbor
          1. +3
            29 September 2017 11: 08
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            All conspiracy theorists have one big hole in reasoning - if the US knew about the Pearl Harbor attack, then why didn’t they prepare To her?

            What kind of “pearls” are these? Pearl Harbor - was the main base of the U.S. Navy in the Pacific Basin, and naturally the main naval strike forces, that is, the strike aircraft carriers at that time, should have been there. And where did they go during the Japanese attack? According to my information, the last two aircraft carriers left Pearl Harbor just two days before the attack, which clearly indicates the preparation of this provocation by the US senior leadership, which included President F. Rooseveld himself. You somehow lose sight of the key points of this obvious and rather well-covered provocation necessary for introducing the United States into the war, and the people of the United States themselves clearly did not want this. Take a closer look at the movement of American aircraft carriers and try to explain the time-consuming disappearance of truly combat-ready units of the US Navy, without which your statements look clearly not convincing and clearly tendentious.
            1. 0
              29 September 2017 13: 20
              Conspiracy Theory in Action. The conclusion of aircraft carriers is just a coincidence. Moreover, the exact start date of the war became known from deep correspondence. There could be no data on Nagumo's forces there.
              1. +1
                29 September 2017 13: 33
                Quote: Ken71
                Conspiracy theory In action. The conclusion of aircraft carriers is just a coincidence. ..

                You use the term "so oftenconspiracy theory“that it can be assumed that you are a great specialist in this“ theory. ”There was one article on this subject in VO, there was a lot of useful information, read, useful. If you have additional and exhaustive data on this“ theory ” , then continue the discussion, supplement it, and finally explain more clearly what you specifically mean by this term, otherwise on this site you simply add fog to an already quite clear situation on the topic of the article.
                1. 0
                  29 September 2017 15: 06
                  And on the topic under discussion, will you say something.?
            2. +3
              29 September 2017 14: 11
              Quote: venaya
              Pearl Harbor - was the main base of the U.S. Navy in the Pacific Basin, and naturally the main naval strike forces, that is, the strike aircraft carriers at that time, should have been there.

              What are attack aircraft carriers? The main striking force of the US Navy for 1941 is battleships. And the aircraft carriers were only scouts and "counterintelligence" in the linear squadron: at all pre-war exercises, the AB conducted air reconnaissance and fought with the leading reconnaissance aircraft of the enemy. The task of the AB was the first to detect the enemy squadron and "blind" it. And then the time came for the “black boots”.
              In this case, the “conditional adversary” squadrons at these exercises acted in exactly the same way.
              Quote: venaya
              According to my information, the last two aircraft carriers left Pearl Harbor just two days before the attack, which clearly indicates the preparation of this provocation by the US senior leadership, which included President F. Rooseveld himself.

              Yeah ... and they went towards Japan. Thus increasing your chances of being destroyed.
              1. +2
                29 September 2017 14: 34
                Quote: Alexey RA
                What are attack aircraft carriers? The main striking force of the US Navy for 1941 - battleships. ..

                That "The main striking force of the US Navy for 1941 - battleships"- this is news for me, they didn’t teach me so! By the 41st year, it became obvious to the specialists of that time that artillery battleships were not the main striking force of the fleet, priority was given to aircraft carriers. Look, the same strike of the Japanese Navy against Pearl "Harbor was only fired by air, there was no artillery attack from the battleships of the Japanese Navy. Your post surprised me very much, and even then no one knew the direction of the American aircraft carriers, this information was kept in the deepest secrecy, but the Japanese aircraft carrier’s campaign In the direction of Pearl Harbor, the high American command was known from intelligence, so I read that F. Rooseveld did absolutely right based on his tasks, taking all aircraft carriers out of attack, while naturally the others were “to blame” for this case of the Japanese As always, the class work of the Propaganda and Disinformation Department of the US Armed Forces
                1. +3
                  29 September 2017 17: 12
                  Quote: venaya
                  By the 41st year, it became clear to the specialists of that time that artillery battleships were not the main striking force of the fleet, and aircraft carriers were given priority. Look, the same attack by the Japanese Navy on Pearl Harbor was carried out only by air units, no artillery attack from the battleships of the Japanese Navy was observed there.

                  And what is the ratio of the blow Japanese fleet has to position in the fleet American? Japan and the USA are different states.
                  In the prewar years, the United States conducted exercises called Fleet Problem. And the AVs acted on them exactly as I described - air reconnaissance and the fight against the conditional enemy AV, which also engaged in reconnaissance.
                  Quote: venaya
                  but the campaign of Japanese aircraft carriers in the direction of Pearl Harbor, the high American command was known from intelligence.

                  But American sources write that the Kido Butai raid on the PX missed out - due to the next code change on December 1, 1941, the radio reconnaissance "lost the picture" for a while. It was only known that “something was being prepared” - but analysts considered the main direction of the SEA strike.
                  ICH. they were right - the main blow was delivered precisely in Southeast Asia and the Philippines. And the raid on PX was an auxiliary operation.
                  1. +1
                    29 September 2017 17: 39
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    .. American sources writethat the Kido Butai intelligence raid on PX missed out - due to another code change ..

                    What American intelligence sources write is perhaps interesting, but can they write that their highly respected president has committed a state crime, that is, with the goal of forcing American society itself to change its stable public attitude and opinion about the need for military operations outside the country? This was precisely the opinion of the masses within the United States. And how do you imagine the situation with the publication of official US intelligence reports? Could they write something else in such conditions, and if someone dared to do this, then how much time after that he could live? I think that the answer to such questions is too obvious to even discuss. On this issue, so many published materials have accumulated that I am truly surprised even by the fact of discussing this issue.
                    1. +2
                      29 September 2017 18: 27
                      Quote: venaya
                      What American intelligence sources write is perhaps interesting, but can they write that their highly respected president has committed a state crime, that is, with the goal of forcing American society itself to change its stable public attitude and opinion about the need for military operations outside the country.

                      And they write about it. But only in relation to provocations in the Philippines. In addition, Kimmel recognized the provocative nature of US actions in that area.
                      Quote: venaya
                      And how do you imagine the situation with the publication of official US intelligence reports? Could they write something else in such conditions, and if someone dared to do this, then how much time after that he could live?

                      Easy. Remember how a fleet officer organized a leak on the same Tonkin incident. If the fleet had the opportunity to completely shift the responsibility from its officers to politicians, he would have done it.
                      In addition, you, apparently, do not quite imagine the level at which the case of the raid on Pearl Harbor was dug. The congressional and senate commissions alone were at least 5 pieces — moreover, during the war. And not only supporters of the FDR sat in them. And they interrogated everyone on these commissions - from commanders to ordinary officers. And the materials of these commissions are in the public domain.
                      By the way, it was during these investigations that the ugly role of the senators and congressmen came to light - they forbade conducting exercises and storing ammunition on their lands in Oahu, threatening to overstate the prices and terms of construction of naval facilities by the construction companies controlled by them. As a result, the anti-aircraft artillery of the air defense system was forced to deploy conditionally, and on the Day of Shame she had to deliver the BC to positions after the start of the raid.
                      Had something frankly provocative in PX, this would have surfaced before the 1944 elections.
            3. +3
              29 September 2017 17: 39
              In order not to produce many branches, I answer immediately to everything.
              The first one. At that time, the main striking force of the fleets were considered LINCORS. Dot.
              You weren’t taught like that? I am sorry, but I believe that there has been a banal substitution of concepts. Most likely, you were taught that by 1941 it was an aircraft carrier, and not a battleship, that became the main strength of the fleet, and this is true. It is also quite true that in 1941 a number of specialists really appreciated the priority of aircraft carriers over battleships. But one must take into account the gigantic inertia of thinking, accustomed to believing precisely in battleships (which they had already tried to doom to death with torpedoes, destroyers and submarines - without success), and therefore neither in the United States nor in Japan aircraft carriers were considered the main force of the fleet.
              That is why Pearl Harbor did not have Japanese battleships. It was not a pity to lose the aircraft carriers, and the battleships were needed for a “real war” - when the US Navy will try to conquer the Philippines, or even Japan. As for the United States, they had at the time of the PH attack in the construction of 8 battleships and 1 large aircraft carrier
              The numbers speak for themselves :) In general, I have no doubt that there were people in the USA and Japan who appreciated the capabilities of carrier-based aircraft but still did not take them seriously.
              Finally, the very idea that preparing for the attack was to “take the aircraft carriers away,” excuse me, is simply enchantingly illogical. If we assume that the Yankees knew about the blow to PX, then who prevented Kimmel and Short from getting on course? Who interfered with deploying the same aircraft carriers and getting ready for battle as it was subsequently done at Midway? Who prevented the defeat of the Japanese during the PH attack?
              The very idea that the Americans give their only (!!!) base of the Pacific Fleet to defeat along with thousands of trained sailors on battleships and other ships, hundreds of aircraft, etc. absolutely illogical. Because the United States had a bunch of territories (the same Philippines) which they could not keep in principle and which were supposed to be surrendered to Japan at the initial stage of the war. And I assure you that “the deaths of the heroic marines who covered with their breasts the main caliber of the Yamato” in the Philippines were more than enough for the nation to stand on its hind legs. To substitute the fleet and the base for defeat for this is completely unnecessary.
              Of course, the United States literally ran into a war with Japan. But what’s interesting is the fact that the USA imposed a fuel embargo on Japan FULLY EXCLUDED the Japanese attack on the USSR. You can’t fight without fuel, you know, but Samsonov, alas, does not know about this, continuing to rave about the machinations of the British. The United States put the Japanese in a hopeless situation, from which there is only one way - to attack the United States and seize island oil sources. In fact, the United States determined its entry into the war precisely at the time of the embargo.
              But why did they do it?
              By and large, the plan was this: the United States needed to intervene in the war in order to later sit at the winners table, and at the same time it was not very desirable to fight on the continent. But pushing Japan to attack, Roosevelt could:
              1) Get into the war for the most acceptable reason (we were attacked, aaaaa!!!)
              2) Without problems with the senators, lend-lising in the direction of the USSR and England, and this greatly stimulated the US industry + interfered with Hitler, who was completely uninteresting for the USA as the hegemon of Europe.
              3) Deal on the sly with the "damned macaques" and thereby turn the Pacific Ocean into an American lake.
              4) To fight with Germany, fighting with Japan - i.e. make a minimum of effort against foshists, but have all the preferences of a beaver wrestler with a donkey
              As I said above, in order to draw the American nation into the war, no PX was needed by definition. If, in the order of the game of the mind, to think about conspiracies, then for the Spanish-American, the explosion of the most shabby cruiser of the USA and the death of 266 people were enough. In WWI, there were enough 1200 civilians killed in Lusitania. And the United States in the Philippines had an entire Asian fleet consisting of three cruisers and two air transport, apart from other little things, and several divisions of ground forces - I don’t want to sacrifice! But no, according to our analysts, it was necessary to sacrifice no less than Pearl Harbor, the defeat of which, generally speaking, casts doubt on the ability of the United States to wage naval war on the Pacific Fleet, since there are other somewhat large-scale US naval bases between the Philippines and the US coast something is not available.
              In general, the US policy on the eve of the PX is absolutely logical, understandable, consistent with the interests of the USA and absolutely does not need any conspiracy drawn up against the communists or their own sailors in the PX. Accordingly, we take Occam’s razor, and ...
              1. 0
                29 September 2017 19: 30
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                It is also quite true that in 1941 a number of specialists really appreciated the priority of aircraft carriers over battleships. But one must take into account the gigantic inertia of thinking, accustomed to believing precisely in battleships (which they had already tried to doom to death with torpedoes, destroyers and submarines - without success), and therefore neither in the United States nor in Japan aircraft carriers were considered the main force of the fleet.

                Duc ... everyone likes to remember about Taranto, but few people remember about the durability of LC ABC in Crete. And also few people like to remember that without the battleships that approached, Tovi “Bismarck” could have gone to Brest.
                So in 1941 the priority of aviation in general and aircraft carrier in particular over LC was far from obvious.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                As for the United States, they had 8 battleships and 1 large aircraft carrier at the time of the PX attack in the construction

                Mistake: AB in construction was 3: the lead CV-9 "Essex" at the Newport News shipyard and a pair of CV-16 "Lexington", CV-17 "Bunker Hill" at the shipyard Bethlehem, Quincy.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Finally, the very idea that preparing for the attack was to “take the aircraft carriers away,” excuse me, is simply enchantingly illogical.

                Not just take them farther away, but send them individually to different places, but at the same time - towards Japan and with decks loaded with Marines. Apparently, it was more convenient for Nagumo to beat them. smile
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                And the United States in the Philippines had a whole Asian fleet of three cruisers and two air transport, apart from other little things, and several divisions of the ground forces - I don’t want to sacrifice!

                So in those parts of the Yankees and tried to arrange a provocation. smile
                Former chief of the US Pacific Fleet Intelligence Directorate, Rear Admiral Edwin Layton bluntly stated that the young officers were "used blindly":
                ... but both he and the Filipino volunteers, seized on the chance to put on a navy uniform, would hardly have experienced a surge of enthusiasm if they realized that they were destined for the role of fishing bait.

                This was confirmed by Admiral Hart himself, when during one of the meetings he introduced Rear Admiral Kemp Tolly as "a young man whom I somehow had to send with a one-way ticket." To the direct question: "Do you also think that our mission was a bait for the incident, for casus belli?" - Admiral Hart answered no less bluntly:
                Yes, I think that bait. And could bring evidence. But I will not do it. And you do not try either.
                © midnike
                1. +1
                  30 September 2017 00: 33
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  Mistake: AB in construction was 3: the lead CV-9 "Essex" at the Newport News shipyard and a pair of CV-16 "Lexington", CV-17 "Bunker Hill" at the shipyard Bethlehem, Quincy.

                  OK, I admit my wrong. For blame, I will accept everything, exile, hard labor, prison, BUT! I would like in July, and preferably in the Crimea :)
            4. 0
              30 September 2017 00: 49
              But the aircraft carriers at that moment were not even considered by the Japanese as the main striking force, who were the most advanced in creating large strike aircraft carrier groups. Other countries considered aircraft carriers a tool to support linear squadrons.
              And where the “carriers” “carriers” are also easy to find from open sources. The Enterprise, for example, was returning from Wake Atoll, where the Marine Corps had delivered (yes, yes, the fleet’s main striking force was used as a transport), only a storm delayed its arrival at Pearl Harbor until December 7 (apparently, the bloody Roosevelt for several months before the blow knew his exact date and weather forecast). The Hornet, which had recently entered service, was engaged in combat training during exercises, the Saratoga stuck out for repairs in San Diego.
              Although, why should a true patriot recognize this?
              1. +1
                2 October 2017 09: 51
                "Lady Lex" forgot. As of December 07.12.1941, XNUMX:
                Group TF-12, consisting of AB CV-2 Lexington, KPT CA-29 Chicago, CA-33 Portland and CA-34 Astoria and 5 EM (DD-356, DD-364, DD- 366, DD-367 and DD-368), followed to Midway Atoll and were 460 miles from it (23-30N, 170-30W).

                Frequency response, CV-2 was also used as an air transport - for the delivery of dive aircraft to Midway. Main shock force, Yes...
          2. avt
            +1
            29 September 2017 12: 46
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            All conspiracy theorists have one big hole in the argument - if the US knew about the Pearl Harbor attack, then why didn't they prepare for it?

            Quite prepared for themselves - the aircraft carriers withdrew. In general, I recommend ,, Flight through the years "Kondratiev in the light
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            conspiracy theories

            Study carefully. Oooh very interesting historical character from the center of events of that time who played tennis with Charlie Chaplin exactly before Litvinov’s visit to the USA. Yes! there is one more interesting detail noted by Walter Lord in “An Incredible Victory,” about how after, already before Midway, the Americans teased via a submarine cable — they called the japam, and they said they said something “incomprehensible” until now . They say they swore in response. But what is interesting - when the Angles returned Singapore, they sent a submarine and cut off the underwater communication cable. But neither during the abandonment of Singapore, nor after at the time of the occupation, why did NOBODY bother with such an event.
            Shaped nonsense, given that the heavy defeat of the fleet in Pearl Harbor could easily lead Roosevelt’s office to resign.
            And not once. As well as speaking for Bush’s resignation for the “twins.” They drove everything off with a turn of time - rallying the nation. Because, paradoxically in terms of scale in comparison with the personalities of Bush and Roosevelt, the country's leadership firmly held all the control levers in their hands. What again but it is confirmed by the facts of those years - when japas and submarines with balloons burned the east coast with forest fires, newspapers were forbidden to report this to the newspapers under the fear of a military tribunal and everything was suppressed as the spread of panic rumors. , just can’t. Again, an example of the DPRK in the sense of words and deeds.
            1. +1
              29 September 2017 17: 44
              Quote: avt
              Quite prepared for themselves - the aircraft carriers withdrew.

              This is not preparation, :))) In general, I set out my point of view a little more detailed - it just turns out that different people raise the same questions, copy-paste is somehow not comme il faut for the site (flood turns out) but rewrite one and the same in different words somehow, too ... drinks
              1. avt
                +2
                29 September 2017 20: 45
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                This is not preparation, :)))

                Rather, the finale is the apotheosis of the enormous amount of work that has remained on the surface. But the endgame of this game ended with the USA entering the war and sending the japs ​​to the South, Az would probably begin to unwind from an event that was unique in history - Stalin personally to Matsuoka station. Which type of travel from Berlin to Tokyo rode and braked in Moscow, drink some tea. bully So, the “surprise” of the attack on Pearl was BUT exclusively for the specifically naval and senior command not dedicated to the secrets of the Game. Again Well, after all, it’s not an impeachment to declare to Roosevelt, but the whole Kimmel’s on a ram for slaughter fat and well-fed. Yes! Here it is
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                But what’s interesting is the fact that the USA imposed a fuel embargo on Japan FULLY EXCLUDED the Japanese attack on the USSR.

                COMPLETELY corresponds to what I am telling you, as well as the direction of the consular officer to California Kondratiev ... passing through ..... Japan bully Moreover, the last steamboat that departed from it after breaking the transport link between the USA and Japan. So, the club for conspiracy theorists with initiative drinks Even if for the time being you are not aware of it and even type of resistance. bully By the way! If you still look ... with the armed eye bully it’s work, and even more so, legalization through Nazi Germany to Sorge, whom Geheim Stats Politsay knew very well as a very specific communist after the First World War, and after all he introduced himself directly, under his own flag. ”At least think about the fact that his story was seen by Khrushchev in the Franco-Bundesian film it seems, “Who are you Dr. Sorge”, in fact, not as direct as a bayonet. And yet she had a double, and maybe a triple, legged game. By the way! At that time, Chiang Kai-shek had not only Chuikov in advisers from intelligence, but also one such Reichswehr veteran who was no more stupid than Canaris. I repeat-A raid on Pearl is really the end of the endgame of this game, when two woodcocks were hit with one shot. In addition to turning the Japs to the South, they actually forced Hitler to declare war on the USA. After all, it was he who announced it. That's it! - the mousetrap slammed shut and all the Players fell to their sides The boards were unable to draw for whom to play and the new Patria of the Big Game began with the endgame in Podsdam and with the end of the party on the battleship Missouri. Then a new game began in the changed composition of the Players.
                1. The comment was deleted.
              2. +2
                29 September 2017 21: 23
                This is not a preparation

                In my opinion, S. Pereslegin read that a command-staff war game was being held, after the war the events in Pearl Harbor were modeled. Of all the options, the most sparing for the United States was exactly what happened: the aircraft carriers left, the rest of the ships remained in the base. Those ships that would sink into the sea were restored.
                Increased combat readiness before the Japanese strike, did not play a big role in repelling the attack.
  4. +1
    29 September 2017 07: 28
    The war, the nurse of the United States .... From here you need to dance ...
    1. +2
      29 September 2017 08: 18
      Quote: parusnik
      The war, the nurse of the United States .... From here you need to dance ...

      I will not give a specific date, this is not so critical, but from the beginning of the USSR, with its industrialization, and then the wars in Europe that grew into WWII, the United States helped to survive the Great Depression. The Americans read Japanese diplomatic correspondence and do not transfer the blame only to the Pearl Harbor garrison, this garrison, the telegram from the book “The Pacific War.”

      - Well, well ... Prepare radiograms ... First of all to Manila in the Philippines, then to San Francisco ... In Pearl Harbor, last of all, nothing can happen there ... Don't waste time. Chief of General Staff Marshall conveyed a directive to the troops: "Our negotiations with Japan are actually terminated. There is no hope that Japan will continue them ... If the outbreak of war cannot be avoided ... I repeat, if war cannot be avoided, then the United States wants Japan took the first step ... "
      Marshall's directive was reinforced by Admiral Stark.
      “Consider this message as a warning about the war, he delighted the commander of the Pacific Fleet.” “Miles continued to insist. Marshall reluctantly agreed. Aggressive actions of Japan are expected in the coming days ... With the beginning of the war, your fleet is advancing to the Marshall Islands. Do not take any offensive action until Japan attacks "...
      Miles continued to insist. Marshall reluctantly agreed.
      "Okay ... Prepare radiograms ... First of all to Manila in the Philippines, then to San Francisco ... In Pearl Harbor last, nothing can happen there ... Don't waste your time."
    2. 0
      29 September 2017 08: 25
      Actually, the Japanese attacked.
      1. +3
        29 September 2017 08: 56
        Captain evidence however. Who pushed them to this? No need to consider Pearl Harbor exclusively in the context of December 7th. You need to look wider. What was BEFORE, what was AFTER, and at least a little to know about the USA in the interwar period (Between WWII and WWII), and then you will understand that the American leadership wanted to tremble to the knees, but it was low, because the American Society did not will support the war. It was not enough for the Americans to simply bring Japan to the war, so that it would attack first. They had to arrange a national catastrophe, so to speak, that the whole American people in a "single impulse" rose up against the treacherous enemy. It was necessary to stir up a society in which pacifist sentiments flourished after the WWII, it was necessary to justify why the president was breaking his campaign promise not to fight anywhere except in a defensive war in the United States. This is all you need to understand.
        You need to understand that the United States is not a banana republic, and they could not have neither intelligence, nor air intelligence, nor other ways of obtaining information. They had everything. It must be understood that having only one alleged theater of operations and being on the brink of war, they used all their intelligence capabilities. And finally, you need to understand that by the time of the attack on the pearl harbor, for example, ALL Avion carriers were absent, battleships were outdated, some “especially important people” were accidentally taken out for some reason. Etc. Some kind of stupid error type ... they allegedly confused the link of their bombers with several hundred enemy aircraft .. There are so many questions here dear Colleague that not just one article, there will not be enough books. And again, considering a longer period of US history, we will see that such "disasters" and such "villains" appear REGULARly.
        1. +2
          29 September 2017 09: 05
          What does it mean pushed. And Hitler bleated about a preventive war. Did Stalin push him? Yes, the Americans economically crushed the Japanese. But this is not an excuse. The Japanese attacked. Dot. The rest is nonsense of the aggressor’s excuses.
          1. 0
            29 September 2017 15: 03
            Colleague, if you suddenly thought that I was somehow justifying the Japanese, then you are deeply mistaken. The Japanese are still pretzel, with a lot of ambition and Wishlist. Aggressive people who consider themselves to be the navel of the Asia-Pacific region. So two rabid dogs clung to me. And in hell there are separate boilers for them. I am only for a sober assessment of the situation and the cynicism of the Americans. That's all
        2. +2
          29 September 2017 09: 09
          good Great comment, but not Shirsha need to watch. And Wider ... wink But seriously, I especially liked And again, considering a longer period of US history, we will see that such "disasters" and such "villains" appear REGULARly. hi
        3. +1
          29 September 2017 14: 19
          Quote: Varyag77
          It must be understood that having only one alleged theater of operations and being on the brink of war, they used all their intelligence capabilities.

          What is one theater? The US was preparing for war in Europe!
          A simple question - why for a war on TO 100 or more divisions? Why is the United States generally the multimillion-dollar ground forces that Roosevelt began to create back in 1938?
          Quote: Varyag77
          battleships were outdated

          Correctly. Because the new PF Pacific Fleet until the fall of 1942 (!) Did not have. All new LCs served in the Atlantic.
          Actually, this clearly shows the priorities of the theater. smile
          Quote: Varyag77
          Some kind of stupid mistake type .. supposedly confused the link of their bombers with several hundred enemy aircraft

          You saw the radar of that time? You don’t even have an IKO - just an oscilloscope screen with peaks. Moreover, the height of the peak depends not only on the size of the target but also on how the station is currently tuned (oh this wonderful procedure for turning on the UNK, when during the test only the supply voltage can go up to 20 percent .... smile ) So to determine the size of the target, it is highly desirable to compare it with another target, the size of which is known.
          1. 0
            29 September 2017 15: 05
            I meant the naval war. The war in Europe is a land war and has little to do with operations in the Pacific.
            1. 0
              29 September 2017 17: 37
              Quote: Varyag77
              I meant the naval war. The war in Europe is a land war and has little to do with operations in the Pacific.

              You tell Nimitsu about the land war in Europe, which has little to do with the war on maintenance. I suggest - between the USA and Europe there is such a small water barrier. To ensure transportation on which forces were concentrated, often better in quality than in maintenance.
              A simple example: Midway.
              AV Nimitsa go into battle without LC support - because LC do not keep pace with them and remain to cover the western coast of the Metropolis. The Pacific Fleet does not have high-speed LCs. Where are they? And they are all in the Atlantic - they guard the KOH or help the fleet of the Metropolis. The first high-speed LC came to the Pacific Fleet in the fall of 1942.
              Nimitz is forced to throw into the general battle even the unrepaired Yorktown - and at that time the Wasp cuts across the Atlantic and the Mediterranean. His at the Pacific Fleet also wait until the fall. after Midway.
              Escorted aircraft, indispensable for landing, also primarily go to the Atlantic. For the Battle of the Atlantic is much more important than the Pacific Ocean.
              And I still don’t remember how the Army Air Forces fused the vehicles that they refused to use on the ATVD: all modifications of the Cobra, including export ones, were written off for maintenance - according to the principle "on you god that we are worthless".
              1. +1
                30 September 2017 01: 26
                Quote: Alexey RA
                And I still don’t remember how the Army Air Force fused the vehicles that they refused on the ATVD: all modifications of the Cobras, including export ones, were written off as maintenance vehicles, on the principle of "on you, God, we are not worth it."
                Everything correctly and completely agrees with your comment, I just want to add a little about the marine theater of operations in North Atlanika and the transfer of our boats from Vladivostok to the Polar 1942-1943.
                I can only say one thing: WAR ON THE PACIFIC THEATER IN THE USSR JUST SILENT. And now the situation is as follows: the war on ETVD about which we know more or less enough and the war in Asia, about which we know not enough. And the theater of this war ranged from the Pacific coast of the United States to the shores of Australia. And few people know about the Atlantic convoys and battles in the North Atlantic. Even little is known about the passage through our three oceans. Book G.I. Shchedrin "On board the S-56" is widely known, but little is known about the transition of Pacific boats to the north. Who knows that the S-56 could not get to the Polar, because an unknown torpedo hit it and dodged the second piston on the ESCE. This part of the memories of the transition is very difficult to find. There is only a chapter from these memoirs: “Jump across the Atlantic” in the collection on the history of the Russian submarine fleet. "From the Abyss of Water" edited by N. Cherkashin.
                And very interesting words about the relationship between the British and the Americans: “I had to make artificial Christmas trees - from wire and painted green gauze. But then we had a really festive dinner ...
                Sriro scolded the Americans, who said he didn’t smell the war.
                - The British, who endured the bombing from the air, the evacuation of troops across the English Channel, receiving food on coupons and cards - only they can understand the difficulties experienced by the Russians. The Yankees make money in the war, and we, the British, go broke!
                This unpleasantly cut the ear.
                Ah you arshin souls! Millions of people are dying, they are killing children, but you beat the balance, debit with credit and reduce incomes with expenses? Blood Commerce! "This is one of the episodes of the war in the Atlantic, the transition of an allied convoy from the United States to the British Isles.
          2. 0
            30 September 2017 01: 45
            Quote: Alexey RA
            You saw the radar of that time? You don’t even have an IKO - just an oscilloscope screen with peaks. Moreover, the peak height depends not only on the size of the target but also on how the station is currently tuned

            Unfortunately, I did not find on the Internet photos of radar monitors of that time, such as the RUS-2 radar monitors when there was one horizontal scan on a round monitor with a bunch of pulses from both targets and locals. Although, for example, you can take pictures of monitors of German radar.
            1. 0
              30 September 2017 01: 52
              Quote: Amurets
              Although, for example, you can take pictures of monitors of German radar.

              The source of information is online.
            2. +1
              2 October 2017 10: 00
              Quote: Amurets
              Unfortunately, I did not find on the Internet photos of radar monitors of that time, such as the RUS-2 radar monitors when there was one horizontal scan on a round monitor with a bunch of pulses from both targets and locals. Although, for example, you can take pictures of monitors of German radar.

              In P-X were radar SCR-270. Here is their operator position:

              The SCR-270 operating position shows the antenna positioning controls, oscilloscope, and receiver.

              As can be seen from the description, it was the oscilloscope screen that acted as the visualization tool.
              1. 0
                2 October 2017 12: 05
                Quote: Alexey RA
                As can be seen from the description, it was the oscilloscope screen that acted as the visualization tool.

                So I don’t argue, I just didn’t find a photo with exactly what the oscilloscope’s screen looks like with beats from targets and locals. And I don’t have a scan from my old, still paternal textbook. I just found on the Internet a little and fuzzy.
  5. +1
    29 September 2017 07: 28
    The conclusion is obvious. The Anglo-Saxons are again to blame.
    1. 0
      29 September 2017 11: 50
      The Anglo-Saxons are again to blame.
      Are there anti-Semites in the world now anti-saxites have appeared?
      1. 0
        29 September 2017 13: 22
        Of course. Here most of these. And immensely respected by me, Mr. Samsonov is their leader.
  6. +3
    29 September 2017 07: 35
    I probably fell behind on my couch today, what is the eve of Pearl Harbor? The theme is neither to the village, nor to the city! Everything has already been chewed up. Unless a schoolboy looks at VO, and he, most likely, has seen enough of films. I didn’t read the heading further.
    1. +2
      29 September 2017 09: 17
      And probably after this article, a series of articles about the war in the Pacific Ocean will go .. As one Anglo-Saxon said, This is not casual ....
    2. +4
      29 September 2017 10: 20
      I think that in the end it will turn out that Pearl Harbor is part of an insidious plan to destroy the matrix known to you by the Anglo-Saxons.
      1. +3
        29 September 2017 12: 19
        Quote: Curious
        in the end, it turns out that Pearl Harbor is part of an insidious plan to destroy the Anglo-Saxons known matrix.

        already found out.
        US masters pushed Japan towards Russia-USSR. The Japanese were supposed to attack the Soviet Union along with Hitler’s “blond beasts,” or a little later. In order to crush the Soviet (Russian) civilization and the Russian globalization project with a simultaneous blow from the west and the east, which was based on the idea of ​​social justice. At the same time, the Russians, Germans and Japanese had to deplete their strength in this battle of the Titans. As a result, the owners of the United States and Britain pitted and destroyed their main competitors on the planet.

        so the Day of Shame is also part of the plan and all part of the plan, Samsonov’s all part of the plan to crush the matrix. In general, he is the center of the universe.
        It was interesting to read, skipping the propaganda lines of the "Samson" style. Although I did not see a new one. Just an interpretation of historical events ..
      2. +3
        29 September 2017 18: 07
        I think it may not be clear. With great difficulty I found the skull of a black goat. The magician promised salmonellosis. Theoretically, the comrade, together with Benjamin, should literally fulfill the popular expression “Get out onto G ...” As a hand reaches for the keyboard, it starts to come out. Now I’m working on the dysentery of one “ancient” commentator “K.” Payment after the fact. The scoundrel Benjamin is silent about his condition. As I understand it, he does not feel sorry for the starving children of the war mage.
  7. +2
    29 September 2017 10: 26
    The United States already considered the Pacific Ocean as a personal puddle. As Admiral Mahan's "marine doctrine" was then worshiped in Washington, a clash with Japan was inevitable. By the way, theories of the same Mahan adhered to in Japan)))
  8. +2
    29 September 2017 10: 32
    In some ways, the author is right. And in some ways it’s not right. The Japanese had plans for war against the Soviet Union. But not so simple. In Japan, for a long time they could not decide with whom and how to fight. Ground forces penetrated the idea of ​​a strike on the MPR and the USSR, the fleet defended the war with England and the United States on the ocean. In 1938-39, Japan received the teeth from Hassan and Khalkhin Gol. In the interministerial squabble, the hunters lost some of their positions. At the same time, the United States, which "wanted to direct Japanese aggression against the USSR," imposed an embargo on oil supplies to Japan. This alone pushed the islanders to war with the Anglo-Saxons. In addition, the famous telegram in which the Americans demanded that the yupps clear China. That's just the secretary, supposedly, made a mistake: instead of China, she drove INDO China. In principle, the Japanese would not even leave China. And even from Indochina - even more so. After all, this meant abandoning all the seizures of previous years. So after this dispatch the question of war at sea was finally resolved. The behavior of the Americans before the start of the war shows that the United States did not have any plans to incite the Japanese against the Union; In this regard, there is even a theory that Roosevelt deliberately served up the American fleet at Pearl Harbor so that his fellow citizens would not protest against the war. It’s one thing to get into the war ourselves, violating the isolationism dear to many, it’s a completely different thing if the enemies themselves attacked, moreover, suddenly and treacherously. Given that the American command openly turned on the fool before attacking the base, ignoring any attempts to prepare to repel the attack, the version is not so impossible. In addition, as if ordered, all four American aircraft carriers suddenly left Pearl Harbor on the eve of the Japanese strike.
    1. +1
      29 September 2017 13: 03
      Quote: Molot1979
      In Japan, for a long time they could not decide with whom and how to fight. Ground forces penetrated the idea of ​​a strike on the MPR and the USSR, the fleet defended the war with England and the United States on the ocean. In 1938-39, Japan received the teeth from Hassan and Khalkhin Gol. In the interministerial squabble, the hunters lost some of their positions.

      Not everything is so simple. ©
      It is not worth presenting IJA as a single monolith. In fact, for the most part, the “Kwantungs", who simply had nothing to do, were in favor of the war with the USSR. smile
      The expeditionary forces in China, in turn, advocated that all efforts be concentrated on the conquest of China.
      And there was also the Metropolis - GS IJA. In which they understood that the war with the USSR would require a lot of effort, without giving practically anything in return, that the war in China would not be completed in the near future, and that the stranglehold of the US-British embargo (which began in 1938 )
      Quote: Molot1979
      In addition, the famous telegram in which the Americans demanded that the yupps clear China. That's just the secretary, supposedly, made a mistake: instead of China, she drove INDO China.

      On the contrary: the Americans wanted to demand that the Japanese leave IndoChina, but instead demanded in the document to clear China. For which Japan fought the last 40 years. laughing
      Quote: Molot1979
      In this regard, there is even a theory that Roosevelt deliberately served up the American fleet at Pearl Harbor so that his fellow citizens would not protest against the war. It’s one thing to get into the war ourselves, violating the isolationism dear to many, it’s a completely different thing if the enemies themselves attacked, moreover, suddenly and treacherously.

      They did not substitute Pearl Harbor, but the Philippines. American forces there were planned to be slaughtered: it was explicitly written in WPO46: the Asian fleet would not receive any reinforcements, the army would retreat to Bataan and wait for the fleet to concentrate, build up strength and launch an offensive (that is, at least a year).
      Quote: Molot1979
      Given that the American command openly turned on the fool before attacking the base, ignoring any attempts to prepare to repel the attack, the version is not so impossible.

      You just don’t know: Short and Kimmel regularly bombarded Washington with demands to allow them to increase their combat readiness. And they also regularly received an answer: negotiations are underway between Japan and the United States, an increase in the combat readiness of the fleet and the army can disrupt them, in short, "not succumb to provocations." With great difficulty, the army and navy succeeded in knocking out of Washington permission to transfer forces in PX to a lower degree of combat readiness. Which, unfortunately, provided mainly protection against sabotage.
      So the blame for the low readiness of the PX to attack lies with Washington. For an officer (especially in peacetime) does only what he has permission from his superiors.
      Quote: Molot1979
      In addition, as if ordered, all four American aircraft carriers suddenly left Pearl Harbor on the eve of the Japanese strike.

      Trim sturgeon. © smile
      At the Pacific Fleet there was only 3 AB. Of these, "Lady Sarah" was traditionally under repair (the lucky lady, by some miracle, went to repair before each large batch). So in the ranks were only "Lady Lex" and "Big E". They were contracted for emergency reinforcement of the advanced bases - for the aircraft did not reach them under their own power.
      And it is still unclear what was more dangerous: to stand in the harbor or go side by side to the Japanese on the same Wake.
      1. +1
        29 September 2017 13: 29
        Well, this is particular. China - Indochina, all the same, japas would never go to either one or the other. Americans could gain such advantages at the cost of a difficult war. But not before. In the same way, there is no big difference whether the Americans planned to set up the Harbor, or the Philippines. Anyway, after all, something was substituted under attack. And pissed off both points. Finally, the Kwantungs are the land explorers that I spoke of. I just didn’t specify it, because among other land commanders they had supporters.
        What was more dangerous - history judged. Everything that could sink was drowned in the Harbor, and the aircraft carriers did not even scratch. Which had far-reaching consequences.
        1. +1
          29 September 2017 13: 52
          What did Admiral Halsey (commander of the AUG "Big E") do when he learned about the Japanese attack on the base (he was just going there)? Reconnaissance planes were lifted from an aircraft carrier with an order to search for an enemy squadron. And also ordered to prepare to strike at this very squadron. What did his immediate superior, Kimmel, order to poke around and not look for a meeting with the Japanese? They say it’s not for this that we sent you from PX on the eve of the Japanese attack, so that you climb into the battle? No!
          At the same time, neither Halsey nor Kimmel knew that Nagumo was moving away from Hawaii in full steam. It was assumed that he was somewhere nearby and a second attack was not ruled out. What would happen if Enterprise could detect and attack the Nagumo group? Without options, this would end with the sinking of "Big E".
          All this does not fit with the fact that the aircraft carriers were specially sent from PX for their safety in the expected attack.
          1. +1
            29 September 2017 18: 56
            Quote: Aviaded
            What did Admiral Halsey (commander of the AUG "Big E") do when he learned about the Japanese attack on the base (he was just going there)? Reconnaissance planes were lifted from an aircraft carrier with an order to search for an enemy squadron.

            In fact, reconnaissance aircraft with Big E in the amount of 18 airborne took off early in the morning, even before the raid - as part of the standard practice of returning the AB to the base: searching in the bow of the KM for a distance of 150 miles and then landing on the coastal airfield. By the way, these scouts were always envied - they were the first on the shore. This time they got right into the thick of the battle.
            The 9 scouts who survived the fire of the Japanese and their anti-aircraft defense were able to re-take off from the base only at 10:30.
            For the second time, with Big E, the planes took off only at 17 p.m. - 00 “wildcats” for the escort of the “evening strike group”.
        2. +1
          29 September 2017 14: 45
          Quote: Molot1979
          Well, this is particular. China - Indochina, all the same, japas would never go to either one or the other.

          In Indochina - pray and go. They finally left the same Dutch colonies in Southeast Asia - when the USA loomed behind the Dutch administration.
          But to leave China without war - never.
          Quote: Molot1979
          Likewise, it makes little difference whether the Americans planned to set up the Harbor, or the Philippines. Anyway, after all, something was substituted under attack.

          Uh, no - there is a difference. The Philippines is one thing with their “colonial American army,” for which MacArthur unsuccessfully sought reinforcements. And the other is the main base of the fleet with the main forces of the fleet - battleships.
          For the US to enter the war, the fact of the attack was important. Substituting the Pacific Fleet core for this was completely unnecessary.
  9. +5
    29 September 2017 10: 58
    Great article! I’ll try to sketch out the theses of another article on a similar topic:

    1. Stalin tried to push Hitler to aggression on the side of Western Europe. To eliminate a dangerous geopolitical competitor. That is why the USSR concluded the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact. And also a trade agreement, according to which he supplied strategic materials to Germany up to 22 January 1941.
    2. Stalin was looking for a cause for war with Germany. However, he needed to expose himself as a victim, and Hitler as an aggressor. That is why he "merged" Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltic states. And the Wehrmacht admitted almost to the outskirts of Moscow. Now no one doubted who the aggressor was.
    3. At the command-and-staff games, games between the years 40-41 and in the spring of 1941 it was determined how the “western” ahead of the “eastern” in deployment could defeat the USSR in border battles. However, Stalin forbade to draw any conclusions from the results of the games and to take any measures that could “frighten off” Hitler (see paragraph 2).
    4. Stalin could not have been unaware of the impending German attack on the USSR. There have been numerous intelligence reports on this subject. However, Stalin ignored all intelligence reports (see paragraph 3). Therefore, he did not bring the troops into full combat readiness. Moreover, he ordered "not to succumb to provocations."

    Well, something like that. Now you need to put a factual “meat” on these theses and you get an excellent article.
    ---------------------
    Rave? Of course nonsense !!!
    But the article under discussion is written just in that vein. Where from in a number of generally correct historical facts wrong conclusions are made. Yes, on December 7, 1941, the Americans read the Japanese diplomatic (and not military !!!) code, however, it was clear from the dispatches of the Japanese Foreign Ministry that there would be a war. But how it will begin, and even more so that there is not a word about preparing a strike on Hawaii. With all the maneuvering results, the Americans considered it unlikely that the Japanese aircraft carrier strike force could cross the ocean undetected and strike at Pearl Harbor. The actions of sabotage groups were considered more likely. From them they built a defense. Already after the attack on Pearl Harbor, the Japanese managed to take by surprise many of the objects of Americans and British in the Asia-Pacific region. They also framed?
    1. +1
      29 September 2017 13: 32
      Quote: Aviaded
      The actions of sabotage groups were considered more likely. From them they built a defense.

      In PX, everything was much more complicated: Short and Kimmel were by no means considered the actions of sabotage groups more likely. They asked the Metropolis for permission to transfer the army and navy into combat readiness, in which it would be possible to repel a full-fledged attack.
      Actually, all the pre-war time on Oahu were air defense exercises to repel enemy aircraft carrier raids. Even the beginning of the Japanese raid was regarded by many as regular exercises. But between the exercises, the army and navy returned back to peacetime - and Short and Kimmel tried to get permission for increased combat readiness not only during the exercises, but all the time.
      Washington, after repeated requests, allowed to transfer the forces of the army and navy - but only to the lowest degree of combat readiness. Which was sharpened to protect only from sabotage.
      So the whole situation with "protection against sabotage" on Oahu was not due to the fact that the command of the army and navy in PX was mostly afraid of saboteurs. And the fact that they were allowed to go to the degree of combat readiness, which provided only protection from saboteurs. Which was done. And the transfer to a higher degree of combat readiness - as requested by the command of the army and navy in Oahu - Washington banned.
  10. +1
    29 September 2017 12: 10
    But Yamato, after all, is a beautiful ship.
  11. +1
    29 September 2017 12: 12
    “Multicolor” plans appeared. The main plan was Rainbow-2 (Rainbow). It provided for concerted action by the United States, Britain and France. The British and French were to take over the front in Europe; Americans in the Pacific. Given the proposed balance of forces and taking into account distances, Washington believed that the Philippines and Guam would have to surrender at the first stage of the war. They will be recaptured at the final stage of the war. The Rainbow-2 Plan was approved by the Joint Council of the US Army and Navy on July 30, 1939. In accordance with it, preparations were made for a war with Japan. If necessary, the plan was amended.

    That's only trouble, sadness - this plan is already out of date by 1941. According to the pre-war plans (the same WPO46 - the plan for the Pacific Fleet) for the United States, the main theater was the European theater, the main enemy - Germany, the primary task - the withdrawal of the weakest axis from Italy - Italy.
    What happened? And the ABC-1 conference took place, at which warring Britain and the neutral USA coordinated their military plans. And it was the decisions of this conference that formed the basis of American pre-war planning — direct links to ABC-1 are in the texts of the plans.
  12. +2
    29 September 2017 12: 15
    Kaaak? How can I publish such bullshit ???
    where does the author get this from? What sources or data is supported by this?
    Even before the start of the great war in Europe, the United States and England secretly encouraged and supported the aggression of militaristic Japan against China. If Nazi Germany was the western club of the USA and England, then Japan was eastern. The masters of the West have long understood that it is best to fight with the wrong hands, someone else's "cannon fodder." With the tacit support of the United States, Japan occupied and robbed a significant part of the Middle Kingdom. At the same time, the United States profited from the supply of weapons and other goods to both Japan and China.
    pure inventions. this is not an article but an agitation
    1. +3
      29 September 2017 13: 25
      The author sees this! Like any creative person, he has the right. Someone shows genitals from the stage, someone writes historical articles. That's how they see and work.
    2. +1
      29 September 2017 15: 00
      Especially cool statement
      Even before the start of the great war in Europe, the United States and England secretly encouraged and supported the aggression of militaristic Japan against China.

      It looks against the backdrop of American arms supplies to that very China. And also against the backdrop of American "volunteers." smile

      EMNIP, in 1941 Roosevelt took an unprecedented step altogether - he allowed the acting officers of the US Armed Forces to leave for "volunteers" (without dismissal).
      1. +1
        29 September 2017 15: 09
        Quote: Alexey RA
        in 1941 Roosevelt generally took an unprecedented step - he allowed the current officers of the US Armed Forces leaving to "volunteers" (without dismissal).

        Here is one of the most striking examples of the general strategic task of the United States - to kindle the flames of war outside the United States around the world, carrying "chestnuts" from the flames of wars. Here, the task of helping specific "allies" did not stand at all, only specifically its own economic interest and nothing else.
  13. +3
    29 September 2017 12: 21
    War is inevitable. But the attack is always sudden.
    (alteration from Isoroku Yamamoto)
  14. 0
    29 September 2017 13: 53
    not bad written ...
  15. +1
    29 September 2017 15: 14
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Correctly. Because the new PF Pacific Fleet until the fall of 1942 (!) Did not have. All new LCs served in the Atlantic.

    Yes, quit. You will not deny that the Americans saw their solution to their interests in the Pacific Ocean as their main task (or at least their first priority), and all the rest for later.
    And even more so, I hope you will not deny that when the Allies started the database in Europe, they no longer really needed their help. You can endlessly debate over their relevance to victory, but I can not be convinced that the Americans once again jumped to the section of the pie. As for the war with Japan, they perfectly understood that the USSR was not an assistant here. We do not have a fleet. Therefore, they counted on their own strength. As for the priority on LC Atlantic and the Pacific, we must see. offhand I do not remember.
    1. +1
      29 September 2017 19: 09
      Quote: Varyag77
      Yes, quit. You will not deny that the Americans saw their solution to their interests in the Pacific Ocean as their main task (or at least their first priority), and all the rest for later.

      I will. Just as I will. The Americans, their first task, saw the weakening of Europe and putting it under their control. Therefore, the main theater for them was European.
      That is why in all their plans it was spelled out that ETVD is a priority.
      Why should the US crush Japan in the first place? All the same, until 1943, even after all her victories, she could not particularly threaten the States with anything, and after 1943 Japan rolled up with any development of events. Because 1 new “Essex” in 2 months, Japan will not be able to fend off anything.
      Quote: Varyag77
      And even more so, I hope you will not deny that when the allies started the database in Europe, they didn’t really need their help

      So no one doubts that the Allies defended their interests in Europe.
      I will even say more - the interests of the USA and VBR did not coincide at all. At least the Yankees slept and saw the collapse of the British colonial system and the opening of new markets. Actually, the United States showed its attitude to the colonial policy of the British Empire in 1956 during the crisis in Egypt - when the United States and the USSR opposed Britain and France. smile
      1. +1
        30 September 2017 02: 28
        Quote: Alexey RA
        I will even say more - the interests of the USA and VBR did not coincide at all. At least the Yankees slept and saw the collapse of the British colonial system and the opening of new markets.

        When I read the story of the creation of the B-36 bomber, it was there that the Americans were very afraid of the defeat of Great Britain and the capture of the British Isles by the Germans. The Americans needed these islands as a bridgehead and an airfield for strategic aviation.
        "The start of work on the B-36 marked a major turn in US foreign policy. The isolationism that prevailed in the 1930s suggested that US interests lie mainly within the Western Hemisphere and that ocean spaces reliably protect America from possible aggression. Europe, the Second World War, the catastrophic fall of France and the difficult martial law of England forced to reconsider this position. December 30, 1940 F. Roosevelt, just elected US President for a third term, said in a radio address to his compatriots: "... we can’t avoid danger by climbing into bed and pulling a blanket over his head ... If England doesn’t stand it, then we all in America will live at gunpoint ... We must become a great arsenal of democracy. ”Decisive measures followed: in 2,5 , 11 months a law was adopted on Lend-Lease, a month later, on April 1941, XNUMX, Roosevelt cabled Churchill about a significant expansion to the east, called the US security zone in the Atlantic. " V. Ilyin. "Bombers."
  16. +3
    29 September 2017 16: 07
    It's simple - from 1933 to 1939, the aggression vector of the Japanese Empire was directed to the east (China) and north (USSR). As a result, the controlled territory of Japan expanded from the Japanese islands and the Korean Peninsula to Manchuria and the coastal regions of China. As a bonus, the Japanese received an ore-metallurgical base.

    In the 1939-40 years after the victory of the Red Army on Khalkhin Gol, the conclusion of the Soviet-German non-aggression pact, the withdrawal of France and Holland from Southeast Asia and the weakening of Britain (following the initial WWII period), Japan sharply changed the vector of aggression from north to south, which was a completely objective solution:
    - the geopolitical opponents there suddenly disappeared;
    - It was in Southeast Asia that there were oil fields vital for the Japanese military machine.

    In the north (in the USSR), Japan did not shine, except for the forest. Therefore, the Japanese leadership made the absolutely right choice in this situation.

    On the other hand, the United States during this period planned to enter the fray for world domination, as their geopolitical rivals, they saw Germany, the USSR, Japan and the British Empire. Of these four countries, it was more convenient in 1941 to destroy Germany and Japan, as well as ricochet Britain. The USSR in the US plans was an alternative to Germany - as Senator Harry Truman (who had a reputation as an overly straightforward man) said in 1941: "If the USSR wins, we must help Germany, if on the contrary, the USSR."

    In connection with the heavy defeat of the Red Army in 1941, the US leadership decided to side with the coalition of Britain and the USSR. To overcome pacifist sentiment in American society, it was decided to provoke Japan to a preemptive strike on the US armed forces. Therefore, all intelligence reports about the preparation of Japan attack on Pearl Harbor put the president of the United States under the cloth. The only thing that was done was the withdrawal from attack of American aircraft carriers, while the battleships were put under attack.

    On the part of the USSR, measures were taken to channel Japanese aggression towards the United States - in October 1941, a special agent was sent to the United States as part of the USSR NKGB operation “Snow” (personally supervised by I. Stalin) to communicate with the assistant adviser to the US Treasury Secretary, who acted as expert for President Roosevelt. The assistant with the submission of the NKGB formulated for Roosevelt an algorithm of actions to provoke a war with Japan.

    Anglo-Saxons compared with Stalin [Putin] - small children laughing
  17. +3
    29 September 2017 21: 52
    Gransasso,
    No, I’ve been serving in the army for 25 years ... Having passed from an ordinary post to the command of a separate unit. A little bit in the subject, whom and how we wanted or want to destroy! Operational plans to counter aggression - yes, preventive strikes - yes, but NEVER the USSR or Russia set a goal to destroy the West .... That is the difference between our military plans and strategies! For this, I allow myself to finish our dialogue. However, thanks for opposing! hi
  18. +1
    30 September 2017 06: 47
    Quote: Alexey RA
    I will. Just as I will. The Americans, their first task, saw the weakening of Europe and putting it under their control. Therefore, the main theater for them was European.
    That is why in all their plans it was spelled out that ETVD is a priority.
    Why should the US crush Japan in the first place? All the same, until 1943, even after all her victories, she could not particularly threaten the States with anything, and after 1943 Japan rolled up with any development of events. Because 1 new “Essex” in 2 months, Japan will not be able to fend off anything.

    Colleague You are now reasoning from the point of view of a person who knows "how it all ended." And in 41, the United States had no idea about this. And if you don’t remember, then I’ll remind you of “If Germany wins, we will help the USSR, if the USSR is Germany, then.” at the first stage of the war, it seemed that everything ... the USSR lost the United States and stood on our side. The fact that Amers are interested in Europe is not a question, but I strongly doubt that at that time they could seriously count on their strength as a decisive factor in Europe. They are not fools. There are no ground troops in Europe. Germany is extremely strong and its army is highly professional. Yes, they generally did not shine in Europe. And if the USSR suddenly stopped at its border and did not go further, then not a single British-American soldier would set foot on the shore of continental Europe. And the Americans were well aware that Europe is just their Wishlist, which before the implementation as before China in a famous position. But in the Pacific Ocean, they played the first violin, and therefore had the opportunity to implement their aggressive plans. And by the way, there is a high probability that having started the war the first they would be placed on a par with the Axis countries as an aggressor, and not at all as allies.
    1. +1
      2 October 2017 11: 43
      Quote: Varyag77
      Colleague You are now reasoning from the point of view of a person who knows "how it all ended." And in 41, the United States had no idea about this.

      I argue from the point of view of a person who has become acquainted with pre-war American military plans. In which the priorities of the theater of war are clearly spelled out.
      Quote: Varyag77
      The fact that Amers are interested in Europe is not a question, but I strongly doubt that at that time they could seriously count on their strength as a decisive factor in Europe. They are not fools. There are no ground troops in Europe. Germany is extremely strong and its army is highly professional. Yes, they generally did not shine in Europe.

      And what's the use of Germany from its professional army if Britain is separated from the occupied territory by the Canal? wink
      The US strategy is simple:
      1. At any cost to help Britain restore its armed forces and prevent the exit of "Runway No. 1" from the war. Even at the cost of slowing down the creation of their own army. On the question of priorities: at the beginning of 1941, the high command of the US Army and Navy with great difficulty managed to persuade the FDR to give Britain only half of its military output. And not all - as it happened with the released B-17. The FDR then agreed - and immediately removed from the arsenals 20% of the 75 mm guns that the army had in service. Reassuring the army, that the seized will be offset by supplies ... 1942.
      2. At the time of the formation of their own ground forces to help Britain with air forces. Namely, to deploy an air army on the Islands and begin systematic bombing of Germany. A survey of future USAAF-based locations in Britain began in March 1941. More than six months before the United States entered the war.
      3. After completing the formation of the army and escort forces of the navy, the United States proceeds to the ground phase of the operation, with Italy as the primary goal to withdraw from the war.

      The presence or absence of the Eastern Front in this case does not play a special role - for in the absence of war with the USSR, Germany will be forced to reduce its army (as planned by the Germans) - in order to build a fleet for landing on the Islands, and in order to avoid starvation Germany. For the grave food situation in the Reich in 1941 is even mentioned by Halder.
      Quote: Varyag77
      And if the USSR suddenly stopped at its border and did not go further, then not a single British-American soldier would set foot on the shore of continental Europe.

      Mwa ha ha ... when the USSR reached its pre-war border, the American soldier had already trodden the land of continental Europe for six months now. laughing
  19. +2
    30 September 2017 15: 54
    An article of low damage. But her discussion is much more interesting. And some are much more literate. Although there are enough of those who forgot about the article on the fly and started on the principle of "not very smart himself"
  20. +1
    30 September 2017 15: 57
    Andrey from Chelyabinsk,


    Yeah ... if "a couple of decades of studying history" give such results in the form of this stream of consciousness .. then you would be better at raising agriculture ... at least some sense ...
    1. 0
      30 September 2017 17: 10
      Quote: Gransasso
      Yeah ... if "a couple of decades of studying history" give such results in the form of this stream of consciousness

      My friend, apart from aha and okh, nothing was said about this “discussion” from you. I understand that my mention of the fact that the Red Army (well, more precisely, KA) would have carried out the army of "high elves", that is, the Anglo-Americans led to your butthert once or twice, but why should it be so obvious? Why rave about the "armed English and American weapons of the Soviet army"? Google banned you, or what?
      1. +2
        30 September 2017 17: 33
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: Gransasso
        Yeah ... if "a couple of decades of studying history" give such results in the form of this stream of consciousness

        My friend, apart from aha and okh, nothing was said about this “discussion” from you. I understand that my mention of the fact that the Red Army (well, more precisely, KA) would have carried out the army of "high elves", that is, the Anglo-Americans led to your butthert once or twice, but why should it be so obvious?



        This is not a fact ... these are just illiterate conjectures of an Internet-couch analytega ...



        Why rave about the "armed English and American weapons of the Soviet army"? Google banned you, or what?



        And the facts ... they are different facts ... one and a half tens of millions of killed men only ... millions of wounded and crippled ... a destroyed country ... the army that they wore, they dressed, they fed, the allies armed ... or direct deliveries ... or deliveries of everything and all-raw materials, machine tools, processing plants, fuel, transport, etc., etc. .... a country whose economy has long held on the inhuman labor of women and adolescents, which has already called on arms 17 summer boys .. an army without a fleet, with less than mediocre aviation

        This army with a destroyed country behind it was supposedly in one fell swoop to easily and easily defeat the Americans in the 45th ??? ... a country with an incomparably higher economy long ago transferred to the rails of war, with a mobilized army and an almost unaffected mobility reserve. ..and with atomic bombs in addition ..

        Seriously .. drop the keyboard and go do something useful thread ...


        1. +1
          30 September 2017 19: 43
          Quote: Gransasso
          And the facts ... they are different facts ... one and a half tens of millions of killed men only ... millions of wounded and crippled ...

          Let's start from the beginning - where did you get this? Here you declare a fact in your opinion. Justify it, be nice :)
          Quote: Gransasso
          the army that they put on clothes fed fed the allies armed ... either by direct deliveries .. or by the supply of everything and everything-raw materials, machine tools, processing plants, fuel, transport, etc., etc. ...

          Unlike you, I studied Lend-Lease in the closest way :) So it’s not a question - tell us about the specific gravity of the machines delivered under Lend-Lease in the total mass of the machine park in the USSR. And I laugh :)
          Quote: Gransasso
          a country whose economy has long held on the inhuman labor of women and adolescents

          Can you confirm with numbers? Come on, don’t give up - there were so many people employed in the economy, so many teenagers out of them :)
          Quote: Gransasso
          This army with a destroyed country behind it was supposedly in one fell swoop to easily and easily defeat the Americans in the 45th ???.

          This army in 1944 easily rolled into the mud the forces of the Wehrmacht, immeasurably surpassing everything that they encountered and on which the allied armies in Europe were stuck.
          In general, move on from erotic fantasies to numbers.
          1. +1
            30 September 2017 22: 04
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Quote: Gransasso
            And the facts ... they are different facts ... one and a half tens of millions of killed men only ... millions of wounded and crippled ...

            Let's start from the beginning - where did you get this? Here you declare a fact in your opinion. Justify it, be nice :)
            Quote: Gransasso
            the army that they put on clothes fed fed the allies armed ... either by direct deliveries .. or by the supply of everything and everything-raw materials, machine tools, processing plants, fuel, transport, etc., etc. ...

            Unlike you, I studied Lend-Lease in the closest way :) So it’s not a question - tell us about the specific gravity of the machines delivered under Lend-Lease in the total mass of the machine park in the USSR. And I laugh :)
            Quote: Gransasso
            a country whose economy has long held on the inhuman labor of women and adolescents

            Can you confirm with numbers? Come on, don’t give up - there were so many people employed in the economy, so many teenagers out of them :)
            Quote: Gransasso
            This army with a destroyed country behind it was supposedly in one fell swoop to easily and easily defeat the Americans in the 45th ???.

            This army in 1944 easily rolled into the mud the forces of the Wehrmacht, immeasurably surpassing everything that they encountered and on which the allied armies in Europe were stuck.
            In general, move on from erotic fantasies to numbers.




            How tired you are, illiterate idiots trying to put Amer high-tech machines into the number of soviet workbenches for files so that it turns out% patriotic ....



            "... At a hearing, the co-chairman of the Immortal Regiment of Russia State Duma deputy Nikolai Zemtsov presented the report" The documentary basis of the People's Project "Establishing the Fates of Missing Defenders of the Fatherland", in which studies were conducted of population decline that changed the idea of ​​the extent of the USSR’s losses in World War II.

            “The total population decline of the USSR in 1941-1945 was more than 52 million 812 thousand people,” Zemtsov said, referring to the declassified data of the USSR State Planning Commission. - Of these, irretrievable losses as a result of the action of war factors - more than 19 million military personnel and about 23 million civilians. The total natural mortality of military personnel and civilians over this period could have amounted to more than 10 million 833 thousand people (including 5 million 760 thousand - children who died before the age of four). "Irretrievable losses of the population of the USSR as a result of the action of war factors amounted to almost 42 million people ..."


            Enlighten yourself .. when you master, in about 20 years, come again and pokalyakayu about the rest
            1. 0
              1 October 2017 02: 07
              Quote: Gransasso
              How tired you are, illiterate idiots trying to put Amer high-tech machines into the number of soviet workbenches for files so that it turns out% patriotic ....

              Oh-oh :) Well, you slept, honey. Because during the industrialization of the USSR, the massively bought machine tools (and even turnkey factories) just from the USA and other Western countries :))) For example, even in 1932, we produced machine tools only 40% of the total revenue, and the rest - bought. And do you know who was the main supplier at that time? Germany. And you called her machines "file stands"? laughing
              But here's the thing - a huge number of machine tools produced in the USSR in those years) had exactly the same American or European roots - what to do, the science of the USSR then took the first steps, we created the machine tool industry and did not shy away from using best practices, buying it for hard currency. And you didn’t know. In general, my friend, you don’t know anything about history, and everything in your poor head is messed up - the lag as a machine tool park has been outlined much later, it’s already post-war and post-Stalin.
              Quote: Gransasso
              At the hearing, the co-chairman of the Immortal Regiment of Russia State Duma deputy Nikolai Zemtsov presented the report “The documentary basis of the People’s project“ Establishing the Fates of Missing Defenders of the Fatherland ”, in the framework of which studies were conducted of population decline that changed the idea of ​​the scale of the USSR’s losses in World War II

              Yes, and at the same time managed to refer to the Gosplan, which showed his complete unfamiliarity with the subject, which he took up to discuss - because at that time the statistics had nothing to do with the Gosplan :)))
              In general, one alternatively gifted blurted out - without documents, without links, and the other (which you) picked up this game, joyfully giggling :) Well, I give a certificate - I didn’t deal with the State Planning Committee, at least cry, therefore no “declassified data” about losses he cannot have it. The blooper is simply breathtaking - any person who is at least slightly familiar with history understands this and will immediately make a conclusion about the “value” of Mr. Zemtsov’s words :)
              But where do you understand this? :) You're confused even in your own numbers - at first itchy about 15 million, now suddenly it's already 19 :)
              1. +1
                1 October 2017 02: 45
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Quote: Gransasso
                How tired you are, illiterate idiots trying to put Amer high-tech machines into the number of soviet workbenches for files so that it turns out% patriotic ....

                Oh-oh :) Well, you slept, honey. Because during the industrialization of the USSR, the massively bought machine tools (and even turnkey factories) just from the USA and other Western countries :))) For example, even in 1932, we produced machine tools only 40% of the total revenue, and the rest - bought. And do you know who was the main supplier at that time? Germany. And you called her machines "file stands"? laughing
                But here's the thing - a huge number of machine tools produced in the USSR in those years) had exactly the same American or European roots - what to do, the science of the USSR then took the first steps, we created the machine tool industry and did not shy away from using best practices, buying it for hard currency. And you didn’t know. In general, my friend, you don’t know anything about history, and everything in your poor head is messed up - the lag as a machine tool park has been outlined much later, it’s already post-war and post-Stalin.
                Quote: Gransasso
                At the hearing, the co-chairman of the Immortal Regiment of Russia State Duma deputy Nikolai Zemtsov presented the report “The documentary basis of the People’s project“ Establishing the Fates of Missing Defenders of the Fatherland ”, in the framework of which studies were conducted of population decline that changed the idea of ​​the scale of the USSR’s losses in World War II

                Yes, and at the same time managed to refer to the Gosplan, which showed his complete unfamiliarity with the subject, which he took up to discuss - because at that time the statistics had nothing to do with the Gosplan :)))
                In general, one alternatively gifted blurted out - without documents, without links, and the other (which you) picked up this game, joyfully giggling :) Well, I give a certificate - I didn’t deal with the State Planning Committee, at least cry, therefore no “declassified data” about losses he cannot have it. The blooper is simply breathtaking - any person who is at least slightly familiar with history understands this and will immediately make a conclusion about the “value” of Mr. Zemtsov’s words :)
                But where do you understand this? :) You're confused even in your own numbers - at first itchy about 15 million, now suddenly it's already 19 :)



                You can’t calm down in any way, dearie. And every time your multibuffery becomes more senseless and hysterical .....



                Well, exert your half-conviction and think ... in what condition was the USSR machine-tool fleet, let’s say so by the 42-43rd year ... after a decade since the accomplishment of the main builder of communism, Comrade Kan ... after two five-year years of godless exploitation by illiterate the staff ... who drove the PLAN..and you didn’t have any original spare parts or stops there for preventive repairs, etc. ... and then evacuation ... disassembled, loaded, unloaded somewhere in a clean field ... do you even have an idea of ​​the real state materiel? ... or just know how to curl ...


                In terms of numbers ... you have a campaign of cognitive dissonance ... strain the second half-gyrus and think ... who else but the State Planning Commission knows the numbers, including the population, in a country with a strictly centralized economy? .. to whom did the statistics go? .. Fitch or Moody or something?
                1. +1
                  1 October 2017 03: 30
                  Quote: Gransasso
                  ... do you even approximately imagine the real state of the materiel? ...

                  I can perfectly imagine. Unlike you, I saw German machines live - the technology of the 40s of the production is quite operational in the 21st century. And do not tell me about the operation of machines - you seem to have not even seen them in the picture.
                  And yes, deliveries continued even after the 32nd year, naturally, simply in relatively smaller quantities.
                  Quote: Gransasso
                  ..and you don’t have any original spare parts or stops there for carrying out preventive repairs, etc.

                  No, my friend, there were repairs and spare parts. You just don’t know about it. you generally know very little, your knowledge is replaced by fantasies gleaned from the tabloid ... not even literature. 90s Press
                  Quote: Gransasso
                  By the numbers ... you have a campaign of cognitive dissonance ... strain the second half-gyrus and think ... who else but the Gosplan should know the numbers

                  Yes, yes, to whom but to the State Planning Commission :)))) You, a miracle, do not even know what the State Planning Commission is, what functions were within its competence, and which were not. It seems to you that the State Planning Commission is such ... such ... which in the USSR knew ffse. You do not know that the Central Statistical Office dealt with population issues (I generally doubt that you at least know anything about the CSB) and that since 1948 the CSB was withdrawn from the State Planning Commission and directly subordinated to the Council of Ministers. Of course, even if you knew this, it wouldn’t be within your brains to realize that in 1948 there could not be any complete statistics on the losses of the Second World War.
                  The whole joke is that Mr. Zemtsov is appealing to some “secret documents of the State Planning Committee”, while if he REALLY worked with documents on this issue, he would know that they were formed in the CSB, which was not related to the State Planning Commission .
                  However, it will never reach you :)
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                    1. 0
                      1 October 2017 10: 44
                      Quote: Gransasso
                      http://soldat.ru/news/1064.html

                      So the mysterious "documents of the State Planning Commission" turned into a very specific "source" - I..Ivlev’s book "Washed with Blood" :)))))
                      In which the author is a little crazy, pulls an owl on the globe, counting the losses from the books of memory, which is completely wrong - they are not the ultimate truth, especially since for the most part their data is simply false.
                      This is obvious, if only from the example of the Armenian SSR from the tables given by Ivlev - according to Mr. Ivlev, Armenians mobilized as much as 43,5% of the TOTAL POPULATION :) in the population :)))))))
                      I’ll tell you so, in order to broaden my horizons, today in Russia there are men ... no, not of draft age, but of WORKING age, that is, from 16-59 years old they make up only 31,6% of the total population. http://www.statdata.ru/nasel_pol_vozr i.e. in order to call on 43,5% of the population in Armenia, it was necessary to put under arms not only ALL men from 16 to 59 years old, but also 40% of the total number of women of the same age!
                      Of course, this is enchanting nonsense, and in order to justify it somehow, Ivlev begins dancing with tambourines with respect to Gosplan figures, which he seems to have to rely on - he overestimates the population of the USSR by July 1941 (with the argument "I’m brushing like that") and etc.
                      Thus, Ivlev is not “documents of the State Planning Commission”, but just one of the many publicists writing on the topic of the USSR military losses and his data on “research” do not pull
                      Quote: Gransasso
                      and even all the math there..debet / credit

                      Learn not just to read the numbers, but to THINK about them :) Compare and reflect. Understand that until you read 8-10 sources on one issue, did not compare the polar points of view, did not analyze the pros and cons of existing versions of the same event, you can say nothing about this event.
                      For example, you didn’t read Krivosheev, so you don’t see the banal lies of Ivlev - he writes about
                      As of July 1, 1945, the official number of the USSR Armed Forces is known (12,8398 million), commissioned by injuries to the disabled (3,4651 million), soldiers who returned from captivity (0,9493 million who were not returned to the USSR Armed Forces), specialists transferred to industry (0,09473 million), convicted persons (0,4366 million), undetected deserters from the troops (0,2124 million), as well as defectors from the West (0,25 million). Only 18,25 million people.

                      While, for example, according to Krivosheev (and he is official), the number transferred to industry is not 0,09 million, but 3,6 million, etc.
                      And yes, exert yourself and master the quoting :))) Why do you copy-paste my entire comment? Unable to figure out one button? I am not surprised:)
                      1. The comment was deleted.
  21. The comment was deleted.
    1. +4
      30 September 2017 17: 40
      Not bad set out.
      Japan was simply forced to take such a step. And the Philippines, as a "bait", was too unattractive. No, their capture was planned initially, but the threat on the flank in the form of Hawaii and the US Navy was "more interesting" for the attack and gave the illusion of eliminating this threat.
      In general, around December 7th and its eve, so many versions and assumptions have been put forward that you are amazed
  22. 0
    1 October 2017 12: 47
    Quote: Gransasso
    About 300 Armenians were mobilized from the Armenian SSR, which amounted to 000–20% of the total population (in 23 the population of the Arm. SSR was 1940), more than 1.370.000 were called up from other republics of the USSR, i.e., a total of 200.000. and about 500.000 were mobilized from the Diaspora’s Armenians - eventually 100.000.

    Did you understand what you wrote? You just wrote a death sentence to Ivlev (although you yourself clearly did not understand this)
    The fact is that Ivlev paints those called up on a territorial basis (i.e., based on the data of the military registration and enlistment offices), you have just cited data on a NATIONAL basis. Those. 300 thousand people were called up from the territory of Armenia, about the same number of Armenians from other territories, but they (naturally!) were taken into account in those called up from the territories from which they were called up. And Ivlev’s column “called up from the Armenian SSR” includes 600 thousand, i.e. ALL called including and from other republics. He trivially mixed the two methods - he had 300 thousand Armenians counted twice - once from the Armenian SSR, the second time - in those called from other republics
    Quote: Gransasso
    the simple thought is that the number of those called up in the same Armenia is for 4 years of war .. but not on 22.06.41

    For reference - taking into account the Hitler Youth and Volkssturm (that is, just driving men from 14 to 60 years old), the Germans mobilized 21% of the pre-war strength :)))
    1. +1
      1 October 2017 13: 29
      This once again proves that you didn’t even look at the documents ... in this particular case, we are talking about the books of Memory .. and in Armenia, this takes into account exactly the Armenians, regardless of where they called from ..


      Do not suck grandmother .. learn materiel ... a fan of Krivosheev damn
      1. +2
        1 October 2017 14: 36
        Quote: Gransasso
        This once again proves that you didn’t even look at the documents ... in this particular case, we are talking about the books of Memory .. and in Armenia, this takes into account exactly the Armenians, regardless of where they called from

        Right. Therefore, a double account was formed, since one and the same person can be taken into account both by nationality in one book and by place of residence in another. In addition, there are many other problems in their preparation - i.e. for example, if a person does not have documents that he returned from the war, they can easily write him to the dead, while he could simply return to another territory, or the documents were simply lost. In addition, not all called up to the armed forces served in them
        1. +1
          1 October 2017 16: 04
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Quote: Gransasso
          This once again proves that you didn’t even look at the documents ... in this particular case, we are talking about the books of Memory .. and in Armenia, this takes into account exactly the Armenians, regardless of where they called from

          Right. Therefore, a double account was formed, since one and the same person can be taken into account both by nationality in one book and by place of residence in another. In addition, there are many other problems in their preparation - i.e. for example, if a person does not have documents that he returned from the war, they can easily write him to the dead, while he could simply return to another territory, or the documents were simply lost. In addition, not all called up to the armed forces served in them




          Of course this could be .. and it was
          1. +1
            1 October 2017 16: 27
            But not with 15 million souls ... the scale is not the same ..


            As you can see, it’s enough to set aside arrogance and a mentoring tone ... and the "secret" documents of which in "nature cannot be" - all of a sudden they become the most real and not secret at all ... there would be a desire ..... but these numbers are not trending now with the mainstream ... they fought no worse than the adversary and the losses were almost 1: 1 ...


            These figures from this study are much more documented than awkward mistakes and frank fakes of Krivosheev ... but to discuss in this forum format all the columns of all those documents does not seem like a serious occupation ...


            Then a good weekend .. and I apologize for the harshness hi
  23. 0
    1 November 2017 15: 56
    Then why was Pearl Harbor possible?


    Are real causes interesting, not speculative conclusions from a pseudo-historical article?

    I recommend (if you are too lazy to read documentary sources), the events and causes of the attack are available and detailed in the BBC documentary The Truth About Pearl Harbor 1 and 2 series / Pearl Harbor: The Truth (2016) recently shown on the History channel
    http://dokonlin.ru/video/pravda-o-pyorl-harbore-1
    -serija-pearl-ha.html 1 episode
    http://dokonlin.ru/video/pravda-o-pyorl-harbore-2
    -serija-pearl-ha.html 2 episode

    The film partially examines the causes of the Japanese attack and the preceding events that led to the Japanese attack on the United States.
    This part of the story is well studied by historians and is found in translated sources, but there are unknown historical moments in the film that will not be of interest to a wide circle of military history buffs.

    By the way, how not surprising, the film will make you think about the reasons for the surprise attack on the USSR.
    Even when the US headquarters gene had much more information about the Japanese attack, but did not bring it to the commanders in the field, including to the commander of the Navy, Pearl Harbor, which led to this greatest disaster of the US Navy.