Military Review

Battle of Kulikovo - the day of Russian glory and the collapse of Mamaia

154
8 September 1380 took place on the Battle of Kulikovo - one of the most significant and interesting battles in the Russian stories. The Kulikovo battle is considered the formal date for the liberation of Russia from the Golden Horde yoke, in honor of which the Day of Military Glory of Russia is celebrated - Victory Day of the Russian regiments in the Kulikovo battle.


Battle of Kulikovo - the day of Russian glory and the collapse of Mamaia


About the Kulikovo battle has always been written very, very much. This epochal battle has always been at the center of attention of a number of Russian historians both in the past and in our days. So far, discussions about the very course of the battle, the alignment of the Russian and Golden Horde forces, and their numbers, have not abated. The only thing that all historians agree on is in the colossal significance of the Kulikovo battle for Russian and Eurasian history in general.

The history of the Kulikovo battle is full of interesting nuances. To begin with, Mamai, often called Khan in literature, has never really been Khan of the Golden Horde. At the time of the Battle of Kulikovo, this 45-year-old Mongol warlord held the post of the Golden Horde beklyaribek - head of the administration. This high position, which in some cases guaranteed the full control of the state behind the puppet khan, Mamai got through family ties. In 1357, the post of Khan of the Golden Horde was taken by Mohammed Berdibek - the eldest son of Khan Janibek. He immediately ordered the destruction of all Batuids, descendants of the Batu Khan clan, who could be his competitors in the struggle for power in the Golden Horde. So 12 killed the descendants of Batu, among whom even the 8-month-old boy, Berdibek's younger brother, was not spared. The new Khan, according to some sources, killed him personally.

In the same year 1357, the post of the backboneback of the Golden Horde was taken by Mamai, the former governor of the Crimea and the Black Sea region, who was married to the daughter of Berdibek. Mamai was not Chingizid and could not occupy the Golden Horde throne, but this did not mean that he had no complaints about the decisive role in the political life of the Golden Horde. Moreover, the history of the Eurasian Turkic states is full of examples of how formally the second persons in management were in fact the first. Under Berdibek, Mamai felt quite at ease, turning from the governor of the Crimean and Black Sea steppes into the "prime minister" of the whole Golden Horde.

However, in August, 1359, khan-fratricide killed as a result of a palace coup, a certain Kulla (Kulp), who declared himself the eldest son of Janibek and Batuid. Beklyarbek Mamai, a relative of Berdibek, did not recognize the impostor and began fighting against him. However, as early as January 1360, Kulpa was overthrown and killed by another impostor, Nauruz Khan. The horde began troubled times. Nauruz also managed to fix it for a short time - in May or June of the same year, he was killed by the commander Khizr, a representative of the Ord-Yezhen clan, the eldest son of Juchi and the brother of Batu Khan. However, Khizra was killed in August 1361 by his own son Timur-Khoja, who proclaimed himself the new Khan. All this time Mamai acted independently, and in August 1361 of the year brought Khan Abdullah to power - miraculously survived Batuid, saved by Mamai and sent to Crimea, and then to Byzantium. In 1361, Abdullah was proclaimed Khan of the western part of Ak-Orda, which was controlled by Mamai, and in 1367, after the capture of Mamaia’s capital of the Golden Horde, he was proclaimed Khan of the Golden Horde. After the death of Abdullah in 1370, Mamai brought his 10-year-old son Bulak to the khan's throne. Tulunbek-khanum, the wife of Mamai and the daughter of the late Khan Berdibek, was proclaimed to Regents. So Mamai was able to control the Golden Horde political life, while not occupying the Khan's throne.

In relations with Russia, Mamai behaved inconsistently - he supported Dmitry Moskovsky, then Mikhail Tversky. In the end, in 1374, Mamai finally fell out with the Moscow principality. Three years later, Mamai had an active enemy from the east - young Tokhtamysh, Chingizid and the legitimate claimant to the throne of the Golden Horde. Tohtamysh was supported in his aspirations by Tamerlane, who was powerful by that time. Several times Tokhtamysh invaded the borders of the Golden Horde and, in the end, in the spring of 1378, he entered the limits of the part of the Golden Horde controlled by Mamai. In April, 1380, under the control of Tokhtamysh, turned out to be huge spaces up to the Sea of ​​Azov. Thus, the time for the actions of the Russian princes against Mamai was very appropriate. In the east of Mamaia, crowded the hordes of Tokhtamysh. Prince Dmitry responded to Mamai’s demand to increase the size of the tribute with a decisive refusal. Then Mamai agreed with the Grand Duke of Lithuania Jagiello and Oleg Ryazansky about joint actions against the Moscow principality and began to prepare for the attack of the combined forces.

Given that a significant part of the Horde supported Tokhtamysh, Mamai had not so significant forces. He made very great efforts in order to gather against Moscow the largest possible army, appealing for help to the mercenaries. The Moscow chronicle of the end of the 15th century says that eight Horde princes and all Tatar and Polovtsian (Kypchak) troops marched to Russia, as well as mercenaries - Cherkasy, Armeny (Armenians), Burtases and Fryaz (as they used to call people of Russia from southern Europe). Apparently, the very same Genoese infantry that Mamai could hire through the Genoese trading posts in the Crimea belonged to the fryz. Together with Mamai, Polish-Lithuanian troops of Prince Yagailo Olgerdovich and the army of Ryazan Prince Oleg Ivanovich marched. The number of Horde troops is estimated by modern historians in numbers from 50-60 thousand to 100-150 thousand people. on the other hand, the point of view is also expressed that at that time both Mamai and the Russian princes could not have collected more than 5-6 thousand people.



On the Russian side, the troops were about the same in strength. These were the regiments of Moscow, as well as the allies of Dmitry of Moscow - the Lithuanian princes Andrei Olgerdovich and Dmitry Olgerdovich. The troops of the Lithuanian princes arrived from Polotsk, Starodubsky and Trubchevsky counties. A regiment of Vladimir Andreevich was formed in Kolomna, which became the regiment of the right hand, and then an ambush regiment. The left flank was the Yaroslavl regiment.

The famous battle began around the 12 hours of the day 8 September 1380 of the year with the later successful textbook of Chelubey and Peresvet. Briefly need to tell about these people. The monk of the Trinity-Sergius Monastery, Alexander Peresvet, before being a monk, was a boyar, from which he mastered military skills. He decided to take part in the battle together with another monk Andrei (Rodion) Oslyably. Opponent Peresvet was the famous Horde warrior of noble birth Chelubey, or Temir-Mirza. Of course, after centuries it is impossible to establish precisely whether a noble warrior with such a name really existed in the Golden Horde. Some historians are inclined to believe that Chelubei is still a fictional figure, but in the end it makes no difference what the horde who went to fight with the Russian bogatyr called. After the death of both participants in the fight, the sentry regiment under the command of Prince Dmitry of Moscow joined the battle. Then the Vladimir and Suzdal regiments launched a counterattack against the Horde who were pushed forward, and the result of the battle was determined by the attack of the ambush regiment. Beklyarbek Mamay in a panic fled from the battlefield, leaving his army. Nevertheless, despite the defeat of Mamai, the outcome of the battle was not encouraging for the Russian troops either. Up to a third of the Russian soldiers were killed, and then the troops of the Lithuanian prince Jagiello, who did not have time to come to the aid of Mamai, began attacking the lagging carts of the Russian regiments and killing the wounded.

Mikhail Alexandrovich, one of the Moscow boyars, wrote a report on the approximate losses of the Russian troops. More than a dozen other people 500 — 70 of Dmitrovsky, 60 of Kolomna, 70 of Pereyaslavsky, 50 of Galician, 50 of Uglich, 40 — of Novgorod's 40. Losses of junior warriors were much more impressive. According to the data of the report, thousands of warriors died 40, and only thousands of warriors remained 35, however these data now seem to be very exaggerated - such a large army could hardly be gathered.



For Temnik Mamai and his power in the Golden Horde, the Kulikovo battle was the beginning of a swift end. First, Mohammed Bulak Khan, a twenty-year-old Khan of the Golden Horde and Chingizid, who legitimized Mamai’s actual dictatorship and in which the Regent’s wife consisted of Mamai, died during the battle. It was a huge loss, since Mamai, with the help of Bulak, controlled a significant part of the Horde elite. Now he was losing legitimacy in her eyes.

Secondly, Mamai hoped to quickly gather in the Crimea and the Black Sea region a new army from the Kypchak tribes, but it was ahead of Khan Tokhtamysh. In the same September, 1380, the Tokhtamysh army met with the remnants of the Mamai army on the Kalka river. The Horde nobility, who accompanied Mamaia and already knew about Bulak's death, swore to Tokhtamysh as the legitimate Khan - Chingizid. Mamai, with a few comrades-in-arms who remained loyal to him, did not even begin to fight, but fled from the battlefield. At the same time, Mamai’s harem fell into the hands of Tokhtamysh, including his wife, Regent Tulunbek-khanum. Tokhtamysh acted very cunningly and soon married the former wife of Mamai, thereby confirming even more the right to the throne of the Golden Horde.

Mamai himself was killed in the Crimea, in the area of ​​the modern Old Crimea and buried in the village of Aivazovsky (until 1945, it was called Sheikh-Mamai) near Feodosia. Interestingly, Khan Tokhtamysh acted very nobly towards his fierce opponent and buried him with military honors.

After the defeat of Mamai's troops in the Kulikov battle, a new period began in relations between Russia and the Golden Horde. Of course, it would be a great exaggeration to call the Battle of Kulikovo a battle that crushed the Golden Horde. The fragment of the Chingizid Empire collapsed due to the endless internal strife and strikes of Tamerlane’s troops, which by this time had become the main enemy of Tokhtamysh. But Prince Dmitry Donskoy did not go to Tokhtamysh for a label for reign. In 1382, Tokhtamysh embarked on a march on Moscow. 26 August 1382, Moscow surrendered to the Horde, but they did not fulfill their promise not to kill and not to rob its inhabitants and grabbed enough and shed rivers of blood in the surrendered city. On the way back, the troops of Tokhtamysh plundered a whole range of lands. However, twenty years later, Tokhtamysh lost his influence on the Golden Horde policy. He managed for a short time to seize power in the Tyumen Khanate, but then in 1406, Tokhtamysh was killed in a confrontation with Edigei, the founder of the Nogai Horde.

The significance of the Kulikovo battle is great because it showed the Russian princes and the Russian people as a whole the importance of the internal political unity of the Russian lands as a powerful factor capable of bringing a long-awaited victory over the enemy. In fact, the Kulikovo battle marked the beginning of the unification of the Russian lands around Moscow, and the Moscow principality gradually turned into the center of Russia, including thanks to the figure of its Prince Dmitry Ivanovich Donskoy, the unifier of the Russian lands. The great warriors Alexander Peresvet and Andrei Oslyablya, voevoda Dmitry Mikhailovich Bobrok-Volynsky also entered forever in Russian military history, primarily as fearless heroes who gave their lives for the independence of the Russian land from the Golden Horde. The great Sergius of Radonezh also went down in history as an example of the ideologue of Russian independence and Russian statehood. It was he who blessed Prince Dmitry, as well as the monks of Peresvet and Oslablyu to battle with the army of temnik Mamai. With the Kulikov battle, the great revival of Russian statehood began, since the Russian principalities in practice were able to convince themselves that the Horde were not invincible and acting together, it was possible to defeat the Horde forces.

On the other hand, it should not be forgotten that many descendants of the Golden Horde temnyk subsequently Russified and became prominent representatives of the Russian nobility. In 1380, the son of Mamaia Mansur founded a small khanate in the area of ​​the modern Sumy and Poltava regions of Ukraine. The core of its population was Polovtsian Black Sea steppes. Since the center of the Khanate was the restored city of Hlinsk, it soon received the name of the principality of Glinsky. The Glinsky family in it, dating back to Mamai and Mansur, adopted Christianity and actively manifested itself in the Lithuanian and Russian service. To another Horde temnik Yagolday, who created his own ulus in the region of the modern Kursk and Belgorod regions, the Vyazemsky family partly goes back, since one of the princes Vyazemsky was married to the temny grandfather Yagoldy. Since the battle of Kulikovo, centuries have passed and during this time the Russian, Slavic, and Turkic-Tatar populations of Russia have gained wonderful experience of positive interaction, even despite the experience of confronting each other before uniting into a single state.
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  1. Spartanez300
    Spartanez300 23 September 2017 06: 55
    13
    Whoever says anything now and somehow does not overshadow history, all the same, for us, September 8, 1380 has always been and will be the Day of Russian Military Glory. So our ancestors honor and glory for all time !!!
    1. Nicholas C.
      Nicholas C. 23 September 2017 12: 47
      15
      Quote: Author: Ilya Polonsky
      The Kulikovo battle is considered the formal date of the deliverance of Russia from the Golden Horde yoke

      After such a “statement”, the author could not write further.
      It is clear that the authors who write on historical topics on the HE are not historians, but, at best, journalists. But if you are an author, then respect your readers. Must have at least minimal knowledge of the historical period you are writing about. And if you are doing compilation, then do it at least according to the writings of historians specializing in that time period. And when you rewrite the pedia written by the pedas, you get this.
      - The period from the murder of “princes” by Berdibek, the collapse and then almost complete restoration of unity of the Jochi ulus is steadily called the Great Memorial. And do not call it otherwise.
      Quote: Author: Ilya Polonsky
      The troops of the Lithuanian princes arrived from Polotsk, Starodubsky and Trubchevsky counties.
      In the Grand Duchy of Lithuania then there was a specific system of government. Just restored principality Trubetskoye (Trubchevsk - later name) divided, like all the principalities then on, on the volost. Later, starting from the 15th century with the introduction of the Grand Duchy of the Principality, they began to be called voivodships, and volosts, as Polish influence grew, began to be called Povets in the Polish manner. When counties appeared there, thoughtful readers and authors can figure it out on their own.
      Quote: Author: Ilya Polonsky
      In a relationship with Russia Mamai behaved contradictory
      The then name is Russia. Ambassador Maximilian to Vasily III S. Herberstein in his work calls our country Russia. The name through "O", obvious polonism, was introduced during the first Romanovs during the domination of the Jesuits in Russia (up to and including Sophia). See Kostomarov N.I. How long has Little Russia started to be written by Little Russia, and Russia by Russia // Kostomarov N.I. Zemsky Sobor, Charlie, M., 1995. S. 448-455.
      Quote: Author: Ilya Polonsky
      After the defeat of Mamaia’s troops in the Battle of Kulikovo, a new period began in relations between Russia and the Golden Horde. Of course, it would be a great exaggeration to call the Battle of Kulikovo a battle that crushed the Golden Horde. The shard of the empire of Genghisides collapsed due to endless internal strife and blows of the forces of Tamerlane
      Just do not have to invent Tamerlan and the fragments. The Golden Horde began to divide (not simultaneously) into the Great Horde and other khanates much later than Tamerlane's death. Rather, this process can be associated with the death of the then powerful ally of the Golden Horde of Vitovt.
      Quote: Author: Ilya Polonsky
      In fact, the Battle of Kulikovo marked the beginning of the unification of Russian lands around Moscow
      This event happened much earlier, even under Uzbek and Ivan Kalit.
      Quote: Author: Ilya Polonsky
      On August 26, 1382, Moscow surrendered to the Horde, but they did not fulfill their promise not to kill and rob its inhabitants and plundered and spilled rivers of blood in the surrendered city. On the way back, Tokhtamysh’s troops plundered a whole series of lands. However in twenty years Tokhtamysh lost his influence on the Golden Horde policy.
      What happened in Moscow in 1382 is a separate issue. When did Tokhtamysh lose what? When the Khan’s title, and when the influence. If we write with such a temporary capture, then we also need to know about the epoch-making events that are significant, including for the further history of Russia, occurred in 1395.
      Specially did not touch the Battle of Kulikovo itself. Correcting such an “article” is impossible. It’s easier to write a new, correct one.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 23 September 2017 13: 20
        +8
        Quote: Nikolai S.
        It’s easier to write a new, correct one.

        So take it and write. What is the problem?
        1. zenion
          zenion 23 September 2017 18: 28
          0
          To take - you need to offer to give it. And without giving, you cannot take and write.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 23 September 2017 18: 31
            +4
            Quote: zenion
            need to offer it to give.

            And here it’s kind of like paying for articles. Look how Shpakovsky scribbles. wink
      2. Luga
        Luga 23 September 2017 18: 04
        +4
        Quote: Nikolai S.
        Specially did not touch the Battle of Kulikovo itself. Correcting such an “article” is impossible. It’s easier to write a new, correct one.

        In general, I agree.
        I will add a couple of kopecks to my criticism of this creation.
        The first thing I would like to say is about Prince Oleg Ivanovich Ryazansky. In the article, he was deduced by an outright traitor who came together with Mamai and Jagiello to ruin the Russian land.
        "Polish-Lithuanian troops of Prince Yagailo Olgerdovich and the army of Ryazan Prince Oleg Ivanovich marched with Mamai."
        That's what certainly wasn’t like that. I don’t know where the author grabbed such a mind, not a single source says anything about it. And they say that Oleg did not join the army of Dmitry, Jagiello went to join with Mamai, but did not have time and, having received information about the victory of the Russians, returned to his place. You can understand Jagiello - he’s in the midst of a struggle for power at home, but here he did not smile at the risk of losing the troops he needed at home to fight his brothers and uncle Keystut. He depicted a stormy activity and okay. Defeat Mamai - then it’s another matter to join the winner and it is honorable and, most importantly, safe. But what Oleg did with his squads, by the way, very numerous and combat-ready, is unknown. It is believed that, despite hostile relations with Dmitry Donskoy, he actually carried out cover for his troops from the west from a possible flank attack from Lithuania. Oleg Ivanovich, as it seems to me, a person completely underestimated by our historiography, this is one of the most capable rulers and commanders in our medieval history. This smart and energetic prince could not understand that Mamai would defeat Jagiello, his principality would also be plundered, and possibly selected, so he should choose the lesser of two evils - not having the desire to join Dmitry, with whom he was at enmity, he his troops crossed the path of Dmitry’s army and hid in the west of his principality, away from the battle, but in readiness to strike Jagailo in the rear if he decides to participate in the battle. In any case, such a reconstruction of his actions to the sources corresponds much more than his direct participation in the campaign of Mamaia. And, I think, if Oleg Ryazansky participated in the campaign of Mamai, it would have been bad for his principality after Dmitry’s victory. But no repression against Ryazan is noted.
        Next.
        "The great warriors Alexander Peresvet and Andrei Oslyabya, governor Dmitry Mikhailovich Bobrok-Volynsky also forever entered Russian military history, first of all, as fearless heroes who sacrificed their lives for the independence of Russian land from the Golden Horde."
        Peresvet, of course, died in a duel, not discussing. As for Oslyaby, there are options. There is no information about his death in the Battle of Kulikovo, but there is information about a certain monk Rodion Oslyab, who participated in various embassy events in 1389-94 in the retinue of Metropolitan Cyprian. Maybe that, or maybe not that. Well, about Bobrock - no words. He surely remained alive and well and died in his bed much later. Instead of Oslyaby and Bobrok, one could recall the many really dead soldiers, many are known by their names: Mikhail Brenko, who replaced Dmitry under the princely banner, boyars Mikula Velyaminov, Andrey Serkizov, princes Fedor and Ivan Belozersky ...
        There is something else to write about, and so something “multibukof” has turned out. Next time.
        In short, my advice to the author: you need to prepare better for the presentation of the material.
        1. The centurion
          The centurion 24 September 2017 13: 15
          0
          Quote: Luga
          Well, about Bobrok - no words.

          Words are:
          "According to many data, the legendary commander of the Ambush Regiment, voivode Bobrok Volynsky, was the ataman of the Dnieper Cherkas and went to serve the Moscow Prince Dmitry with his Cossack squad because of strife with Mamai."
          1. Luga
            Luga 24 September 2017 14: 27
            +1
            Quote: Centurion
            "According to many sources, the legendary ambush regiment commander, voivode Bobrok Volynsky, was the chieftain of the Dnieper Cherkasy

            I don’t know for what "many data". At the court of Donskoy, everyone called Dmitriy Mikhailovich Bobrok a prince. Even the unruly princes of Rurikovich who were accepted for service usually received boyar status, but not here, a special case. So the idea at the expense of the ataman of the Cossack squad, personally seems to me utter nonsense. The hypothesis that Bobrok is the grandson or great-grandson of Gedemin, the son or grandson of Lubart seems to be much more likely seems to have been called Michael in baptism.
          2. Alexey-74
            Alexey-74 26 September 2017 09: 18
            0
            The first time I hear about such data.
            1. Luga
              Luga 26 September 2017 11: 03
              0
              Quote: Alexey-74
              The first time I hear about such data.

              This is one of the hypotheses. But it seems to me much more likely than the one presented by the user Sotnik.
      3. Pravodel
        Pravodel 24 September 2017 08: 54
        +2
        I join the following comment.
        Please write the true story of the Battle of Kulikovo. This is necessary not only for you, but also for all readers and the people of Russia.
        1. The comment was deleted.
  2. moskowit
    moskowit 23 September 2017 07: 15
    +7
    Centuries have passed since the Battle of Kulikovo, and during this time the Russian, Slavic, and Turkic-Tatar populations of Russia have gained excellent experience in positive interaction, even despite the experience of confronting each other before unification into a single state.

    In 1380, the son of Mamai Mansur founded a small khanate in the region of modern Sumy and Poltava regions of Ukraine. The core of its population was Polovtsian Black Sea steppes. Since the center of the khanate became the restored city of Glinsk, it soon became known as the Principality of Glinsky. The Glinsky clan that ruled in it, dating back to Mamai and Mansur, converted to Christianity and actively manifested itself in Lithuanian and Russian service.

    To such an extent, Russian-Tatar friendship arose that the Great Russian-Tatar Kaganate was ruled by a descendant of Mamaia, Ivan the Terrible! All the same, the Eurasians Trubetskoy and Gumilyov are right ... We must look to the East, and not break through the closed "doors" of Europe, which has rejected us throughout history!
    1. Mar.Tirah
      Mar.Tirah 23 September 2017 09: 39
      +6
      But read. Igor Tischenkov

      There are a large number of facts that not only unequivocally disprove the hypothesis of the Tatar-Mongol yoke, but also say that the story was deliberately distorted, and that this was done for a very definite purpose ... But who and why deliberately distorted the story? What real events did they want to hide and why?

      If we analyze historical facts, it becomes obvious that the “Tatar-Mongol yoke” was invented in order to hide the consequences from the “baptism” of Kievan Rus. After all, this religion was not imposed in a peaceful way ... In the process of "baptism," a large part of the population of the Kiev principality was destroyed! It clearly becomes clear that the forces that stood behind the imposition of this religion subsequently fabricated history, rigging historical facts under themselves and their goals ...

      These facts are known to historians and are not secret, they are publicly available, and anyone can easily find them on the Internet. Omitting scientific research and justifications, which have already been described quite broadly, let us summarize the basic facts that refute the great lie about the "Tatar-Mongol yoke." 70-80% of the army of the "Tatar-Mongols" were Russians, the remaining 20-30% were in other small peoples of Russia, in fact, as now. This fact clearly confirms a fragment of the icon of St. Sergius of Radonezh, “Battle of Kulikovo”. It clearly shows that the same warriors are fighting on both sides. And this battle is more like a civil war than a war against a foreign conqueror. http://peshera.org/khrono/khrono-03_7.html
      1. Hantengri
        Hantengri 23 September 2017 10: 11
        +8
        Quote: Mar. Tira
        But read. Igor Tischenkov ..... http: //peshera.org/khrono/khrono-03_
        7.html

        Did another alternately gifted fall aggravate?
        1. Curious
          Curious 23 September 2017 11: 32
          +6
          Soon, the Fomenkovtsy with the Rodnovers Magi will start fighting for the right to use the version of the Mongol-Tatar yoke for their own purposes.
      2. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 23 September 2017 13: 41
        +4
        Quote: Mar. Tira
        This fact clearly confirms a fragment of the icon of St. Sergius of Radonezh, “Battle of Kulikovo”. It clearly shows that the same warriors are fighting on both sides.

        This is not proof. On the icon you can paint anything.
        Quote: Mar. Tira
        it becomes obvious that the “Tatar-Mongol yoke” was invented in order to hide the consequences from the “baptism” of Kievan Rus. After all, this religion was not imposed in a peaceful way ...

        So the people in Russia were wild barbarians. These are not my words, Jew Gundyaev.
      3. moskowit
        moskowit 23 September 2017 17: 50
        +2
        "... Speransky, Speransky ... Who is it, is it modern or what?" - (Fox "The meeting place cannot be changed."
      4. Luga
        Luga 23 September 2017 19: 09
        +2
        Quote: Mar. Tira
        The “Tatar-Mongol yoke” was invented in order to hide the consequences from the “baptism” of Kievan Rus.

        What for? Even if you accept for truth this your more than controversial thesis
        Quote: Mar. Tira
        In the process of “baptism,” a large part of the population of the Kiev principality was destroyed!
        (complete nonsense, of course, not confirmed by anything, but let's say), where does the yoke impose? From the moment of baptism to the invasion of the Mongols, it was as if not to lie, about two hundred years or so ...
        Quote: Mar. Tira
        70-80% of the army of the "Tatar-Mongols" were Russians, the remaining 20-30% were in other small peoples of Russia, in fact, as now.

        What kind of "scientific" research? Read, at least the names of the participants in the hostilities on the other side, or is it all a fake, a conspiracy?
        Quote: Mar. Tira
        This fact clearly confirms a fragment of the icon of St. Sergius of Radonezh, “Battle of Kulikovo”.

        written two hundred or three hundred years later in a clearly allegorical style. On icons, the Virgin is often depicted as a child inside, and a child is dressed, does this, in your opinion, mean that in ancient times some children were born directly dressed?
        Of course, the concept of yoke requires rethinking. But to deny that a different culture existed on the southern and eastern borders of Russia, a state that had the supreme sovereignty of power over Russia itself is stupid. They paid tribute to the steppe, including "tribute in blood," went for reigns to reign, complained about each other, snapped up headphones, the troops asked for reprisals against the enemies, they themselves drove them to Russia ... It is obvious that they were two different cultures - nomadic and settled, cattle-breeding and agricultural, and nomads had supreme power over the settled.
      5. The centurion
        The centurion 24 September 2017 13: 24
        +1
        Quote: Mar. Tira
        And this battle is more like a civil war.

        This was a civil war, very cruel and merciless. Moreover, the Russian ulus (Zalesskaya Horde) participated in it to a much lesser extent than the southern regions of the Horde and the Black Sea, there was a specific meat grinder. But Russia and the Battle of Kulikovo got one example. But on the whole, the Russian princes, who were not Chingizids at that time, practically did not suffer from separatism. The horde was destroyed by separatists from the Crimea (Girea khans) and Nogai and Siberian khans.
    2. Roman 11
      Roman 11 23 September 2017 14: 00
      0
      Quote: moskowit
      It is necessary to look to the East, and not break through the closed "doors" of Europe

      Yes, like we don’t have to break anywhere, just stand and look in any direction.

      Probably the thirst for the West is associated with a large population and the location of megapoles, as well as a more developed economic and transport base in the western part of the country. This is what cunning Europeans use. Much needs to be changed here, including the archaic status of the capital of the state, this symbolism has already become obsolete to God. The capital in the state, it does not have to be a large center, for example, there are countries where capitals are outside the crowded areas. And not necessarily the capital should be any one place.

      The capital, in the individual sense, is not just a control point, but should be a mobile control point. What do you think, where is it more convenient to manage the battle, from the front line or for kilometers, or tens of kilometers ?? Of course, with the forefront, there is not only everything under surveillance, but most importantly - there is a perception of the intensity of the struggle, without intermediaries and other breaks in information. Immediately there is an understanding of the opponent’s professionalism, their weakness and strength, etc.

      So the capital should be the city that is most suitable for the urgent tasks of the state at a particular moment. Now, as far as it is possible to catch such goals, the development of the Arctic and the Far East is becoming ..... therefore, there should be a capital - Khabarovsk, Yakutsk, Okhotsk, Komsomolsk-on-Amur, etc.
      Peter the 1st moved the capital quickly to secure the exit (window to Europe) to the Baltic. Therefore, I believe that it is not necessary to transfer all states of the government, the president and the government are enough, everything else is allowed by the modern operational information management.
      1. demo
        demo 23 September 2017 21: 09
        +1
        The capital, in the individual sense, is not just a control point, but should be a mobile control point. What do you think, where is it more convenient to manage the battle, from the front line or for kilometers, or tens of kilometers ?? Of course, with the forefront, there is not only everything under surveillance, but most importantly - there is a perception of the intensity of the struggle, without intermediaries and other breaks in information. Immediately there is an understanding of the opponent’s professionalism, their weakness and strength, etc.

        It's time to climb out of the trenches.
        1. Roman 11
          Roman 11 24 September 2017 17: 15
          0
          Quote: demo
          It's time to climb out of the trenches

          Well, Peter the 1st remained in the trench, and you know? I didn’t lose, an excellent city and port.
    3. g1v2
      g1v2 23 September 2017 14: 01
      +4
      At that time there was feudalism, and before the emergence of national states and, in general, the concept of a nation, there were still centuries. For those times, it was not a battle between Russians and Tatars, but a battle between the Grand Duke of the Rurikovich family, who at one time received a golden payzu from Batu Khan, against the arrogant usurper Mamaia, whose family had only silver payzu and had no rights to rule. More so, Dmitry Donskoy of the Rurikovich clan had all the rights to hang Lyuli Mamaia from a lower clan who usurped power in the Golden Horde. request
      But when Tokhtamysh from the royal family of Genghisides came to Russia, the allies of Dmitry Donskoy did not want to fight against him, since he had all the rights to the throne. He came - for a tribute that by that time Dmitry Donskoy had kept for himself for several years, without sending it to Mamay or Tokhtamysh. Tokhtamysh did not receive money, but he burned Moscow and calmed down on this. After Dmitry Donskoy recognized Tokhtamysh’s rights to the throne as Genghisid, they agreed. request
      The feudal relations of those times resemble the "game of thrones." We are talking about the relationship of the ruling houses, not peoples. Therefore, by the way, the Tatars eagerly went to the service, both to the princes, and later to the kings. They simply entered the service of a powerful feudal lord and for them it was the same as serving some Tatar murse. Moreover, the Rurikovich, as the owners of the golden payzi, stood only one notch below the Genghisides and above most other Tatar feudal lords. It was extremely honorable to serve such a powerful family. request
      1. Aposlya
        Aposlya 23 September 2017 15: 20
        +4
        Not everything is as simple as it seems. Does it not seem strange to you that even before Tokhtamysh’s campaign in Moscow, Prince Dmitri was expelled from Moscow — he quickly escaped from there, that he even abandoned his family there. I read once that it was in those days that the Moscow boyars wanted to be deprived of the Horde and the benefit of the Principality of Lithuania and it almost ended in the murder of Dmitry. It was precisely because of this that Tokhtamysh Khan came to Moscow to get even with the offenders of his vassal, Prince Dmitry. After the defeat of Moscow, Dmitry calmly sat on the throne in Moscow. If he and Tokhtamysh were enemies, the khan would never have elevated the son of Dmitry, Prince Vasily, to the throne of Moscow.
        1. Luga
          Luga 23 September 2017 17: 10
          +3
          Quote: Aposlya
          Does it not seem strange to you that even before Tokhtamysh’s campaign in Moscow, Prince Dmitri was expelled from Moscow — he quickly escaped from there, that he even left his family there.

          Quote: Aposlya
          It was precisely because of this that Tokhtamysh Khan came to Moscow to get even with the offenders of his vassal, Prince Dmitry.

          Do you really believe that?
          Then the question is: why did Dmitry run north to the forests, and not south to his ally and overlord Tokhtamysh? He would come under the walls of the city, talk with his subjects, you look, and you would save the city ... Why did Dmitry’s worst enemies, the Nizhny Novgorod princes, go to Moscow with Tokhtamysh? And where does the information about the plot come from? Who are the participants? How are you punished?
          Quote: Aposlya
          deferred from the Horde and the benefit of the Principality of Lithuania

          Do you know what was happening in Lithuania at that time? And the following happened there: Jagiello fought for power with his brothers, Keistut and Vitovt were killed in captivity, but there were enough candidates for the Lithuanian table to take at least the elder Olgerdovichs. Who would have thought of joining one? At the time, it was time to think about Lithuania joining Russia, and such plans, as far as I know, really existed - to marry Jagiello to the daughter of Dmitry Donskoy.
          So the conspiracy to join Lithuania is nonsense, sucked from a finger, I don’t know who.
          1. moskowit
            moskowit 23 September 2017 17: 55
            +1
            Then a little later, the son of Dmitry Vasily married Sofya Vitovtovna .... (Even during the reign of Dmitry ...)
      2. Luga
        Luga 23 September 2017 16: 42
        +2
        Quote: g1v2
        At that time there was feudalism, and before the emergence of national states and, in general, the concept of a nation, there were still centuries.

        I disagree categorically.
        XIV century - this is precisely the time when national states began to flourish. And the Russians were among the first to recognize themselves as a single nation precisely in this period. A little earlier - the Spaniards with their Reconquista, almost simultaneously - the Serbs, Bulgarians in the fight against the Turks, a little later - the French and the British in their centennial brawl, and even later - Italians and Germans.
        Russia was perceived by the Horde as an ulus - yes, but Russia itself did not consider itself an ulus of the Horde. It is by virtue of the awareness of their nationality, cultural, religious and linguistic unity of all Russian principalities. If there hadn’t been a Muslim coup in the Horde under Uzbek, everything could have been as you say, the essence of the process could be reduced to a “game of thrones,” but the Horde’s departure to Islam put an end to all ideas of uniting Russia and the Horde into a single ethnic group, which means relations like “who whom” and the inevitable bloody parting.
        1. Operator
          Operator 23 September 2017 17: 42
          +2
          The Russians with filthy (that of the Gentiles, that of the Muslims) could not have any common ethnic group.
          1. Luga
            Luga 23 September 2017 18: 22
            +5
            Quote: Operator
            The Russians with filthy (that of the Gentiles, that of the Muslims) could not have any common ethnic group.

            They said they cut it off ... Just like that, with a steel blade, already a chill on the skin.
            A common ethnic group with the Mordovians, Zyryans, Korels, Burtases, Udmurts, etc., was not built? But modern Tatars, Bashkirs, Kalmyks are not built into the Russian ethnos?
            OK then...
            1. Operator
              Operator 23 September 2017 18: 36
              0
              There is a difference between the filthy (Polovtsy, Khazars, Mongols, Tatars, etc.) who collected tributes from the Russian principalities for almost 250 years, and the East European national minorities (Mordvins, Zyryans, Burtases, Udmurts, etc.) who themselves were under tribute to the filthy.

              Therefore, Russians absolutely did not mix with the filthy ones (the share of the Mongolian component of C2 in the Russian genotype is at the level of 1 percent) and partially mixed with national minorities (the share of the Ugro-Finnish component of N1c1 is at the level of 10 percent).
              1. Cartalon
                Cartalon 23 September 2017 18: 47
                +1
                Before the arrival of the Mongols, it was perfectly mixed with the Polovtsy, it was clearly going to baptism, the khans were already beginning to take Russian names.
                1. Operator
                  Operator 23 September 2017 18: 53
                  0
                  This is called cultural assimilation (of the Polovtsy, of course), and not cross-breeding - in the Russian genotype, the main haplogroups of the Polovtsy (North Semitic J2 and Mongolian C2) are at the level of 1-2 percent.

                  The fact that the Russian princely elite from time to time entered into dynastic marriages with the Polovtsian khan elite is a drop in the bucket.

                  A vivid example of cultural assimilation is Hungarians whose language is Ugrofin, while the Ugrophin haplogroup N1c1 in their genotype is only 1,5%, the dominant are Aryan R1a, Celtic R1b and Illyrian haplogroup (60%).
              2. Luga
                Luga 23 September 2017 19: 37
                +3
                That is, is it all about politics? We mix with the "unfortunate comrades", with the general "oppressors" - no? Did I understand correctly?
                By the way, it seemed to me that the term "filthy" refers only to pagans (for example, "Lithuania filthy from the swamps did not come out") and did not have a negative connotation at first. The term "bezerminin", "basurman" was applied to Muslims.
                And as for
                Quote: Operator
                (the share of the Mongolian component С2 in the Russian genotype is at the level of 1 percent)
                this is because Mongolia is far and few of them, real purebred Mongols, have reached Russia. In the Horde of the Mongols there was little, and the percentage is so small.
                And further. DNA genealogy, of course, is a useful thing, and as far as I can understand, you are passionate about it and understand many issues very decently. But, in my opinion, the cultural differences and similarities of peoples, arising from close living and similar occupations, are much more important for history than genetic kinship. Roughly speaking, the Russified thoroughbred Kalmyk is more Russian than a Tajik with the corresponding “Aryan” haplogroup.
                In my opinion, if the Horde had remained “filthy,” or, moreover, adopted Orthodoxy, a cultural merger with the Steppe, would have been inevitable. And at the level of chromosomes - it does not matter.
                1. voyaka uh
                  voyaka uh 23 September 2017 19: 47
                  +2
                  Modern proponents of the theory of Aryan-Rus (representative - Operator) have a concept that it is the Aryan-Rus who brought culture, light and technology to all undeveloped peoples of Asia - all sorts of Turks, Chinese and others. Genghis Khan's empire is a bone in the throat. Therefore, against the theories of Gumilyov, they stand to death.
                  1. Operator
                    Operator 23 September 2017 20: 05
                    +1
                    No need to juggle - the Aryans brought their culture only to the Northern Semites (residents of Asia Minor, the Iranian Highlands, Hindustan, Central Asia) and the Celts (residents of Western Europe), while it was significantly influenced by local cultures.

                    The influence of the Aryans on the culture of China was a point (technology of firing ceramics and horse-drawn vehicles with war chariots).

                    The Slavic Aryans did not exert any influence on the Mongol empire, since they acted differently with it - they destroyed it in the bud (it was not worth collecting horseradish).
                  2. Velizariy
                    Velizariy 2 October 2017 09: 55
                    0
                    Quote: voyaka uh
                    Theories of Aryan-Rus

                    There is no such theory. This is a chewing gum for people hungry for antiquity and greatness, moreover, lost for unknown reasons. What proto-ukras, what these proto-vedors.
                    I really want to be ancient and special ... Some "Aryans" at one time almost 80 million people were killed, due to the fact that those "non-Aryans", These are capable of the same thing. They will simply be shown those who are to blame for the loss of their greatness, and they will rush at those like dogs drooling. I think the representatives of your people will be one of the first.
                    This is the same Nazi ravings, based on the superiority of one nation over another.
                2. Operator
                  Operator 23 September 2017 20: 20
                  0
                  Quote: Luga
                  is it all about politics?

                  Yes - we fraternize with allies, destroy enemies.

                  Theoretically Russified Kalmyks, Tatars, etc. possible, in fact, according to genetics, their percentage in the composition of Russian extremely insignificant. The main ancestors of the Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian peoples are Aryans (R1a, 50%), Illyrians (I, 20%), Ugro-Finns (N1c1, 15%) and Celts (R1b, 5%), the rest is a trifle pot-bellied type Mongol Southern Semites (J2 and J1), Hamites (E) and Caucasians (G).

                  And this despite the fact that in the postglacial period the Hamites were the first to come to the Russian Plain (Black Sea), the Celts followed them (the Volga Region and the North Caucasus) and only then came the Aryans from the Balkans to the Russian Plain (7000 years ago), followed by the Illyrians and end ugrofinny. Caucasians originally lived in the Caucasus.

                  From the ratio of these genetic groups in the Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian peoples, we can estimate the number of peoples that have ever lived on the Russian Plain.
          2. moskowit
            moskowit 23 September 2017 21: 35
            +1
            And you, a colleague, saw a sculptural portrait of Andrei Bogolyubsky?
            1. Operator
              Operator 23 September 2017 21: 50
              0
              And to hell with him Andrei Bogolyubsky Rurikovich laughing
              1. Operator
                Operator 23 September 2017 22: 18
                0
                Moreover, the founder of the dynasty of Moscow princes and then Russian tsars was not Andrei Bogolyubsky, but his half-brother from the Slavic wife of Yuri Dolgoruky Vsevolod the Big Nest.
              2. moskowit
                moskowit 23 September 2017 22: 24
                0
                Not comme il faut, mon ami ....
            2. The centurion
              The centurion 24 September 2017 13: 49
              0
              Quote: moskowit
              And you, a colleague, saw a sculptural portrait of Andrei Bogolyubsky?

              In fact, Russian big dreamers. They came up with the fact that they are Slavs. But only a quarter of Russians (and this is a very optimistic estimate suitable only for a few western regions of the Russian Federation) can boast of the presence of the haplogroup R1a. In nature, most Russians are baptized Tatars of various kinds. Even Twardowski wrote: "The eye is narrow, the nose is plous, according to the Russian passport, our main people beyond the Volga." Russian only with great stretch can be attributed to the Slavic, it has a huge number of Turkisms. Not a single Russian understands the Slavic language, not a single Slav understands Russian, although the Slavs understand each other without translators. In relation to the portrait of A. Bogolyubsky. I like to talk with frostbitten Russian nationalists. I ask them a simple question: "Boy! And have you ever looked at yourself in the mirror?" This simple question as a rule puts them in a stupor. But, to tell the truth, there are faces of a very “Slavic” appearance. But it is rare, and upon closer examination of their family traditions, it turns out that most of them come from Poland, Belarus or Finno-Finns ..
              1. FenrirXnumx
                FenrirXnumx 24 September 2017 21: 54
                +2
                Quote: Centurion
                Not a single Russian understands the Slavic language, not a single Slavic understands Russian, although the Slavs understand each other without translators.

                Open a prayer book in Church Slavonic, which is the essence of Old Bulgarian, and you will be surprised to find that about two-thirds of the text is understandable and the language there is native and close. Especially with knowledge of the alphabet. And this language has little in common with Ukrainian or Polish, which says a lot.
                Although on the other hand it will be clear to the Russians, but not to you with Tvardovsky.
              2. Alexey-74
                Alexey-74 26 September 2017 09: 38
                0
                Read about the genetic studies of Russians, moreover, performed by Americans, Germans, Japanese, and of course our research institutes .... and about Turkic impurities in some regions of Russia - that’s understandable.
              3. Operator
                Operator 27 September 2017 00: 48
                0
                Quote: Centurion
                only a quarter of Russians (and this is a very optimistic assessment suitable only for a few western regions of the Russian Federation) can boast of the presence of the haplogroup R1a

                Are you a typical representative of the "chosen people"?

                50% of Russians are carriers of the Aryan haplogroup R1a, 20% are of the Illyrian haplogroup I, and only 15% are of the Ugrophinian haplogroup N1c1. The carriers of the remaining haplogroups as part of the Russians are 1-2% each, including the Mongolian С2.

                The Ukrainians have exactly the same haplotype structure, except for the elevated to 3-4% level of the North Semitic J2 and Mongolian С2 haplogroups (heritage of the Khazars and Polovets, respectively).

                In Belarusians, the difference from the Russians lies in the increased level of the Illyrian haplogroup I.
            3. Alexey-74
              Alexey-74 26 September 2017 09: 35
              0
              Gerasimov has already been written about this reconstruction. Gerasimov had minor inaccuracies due to the imperfection of the then restoration technique. In addition, he relied on data about his mother, the Polovtsian princess, the daughter of Khan Aepa. There were later reconstructions that are generally similar, but there are no signs of Mongoloidity in the person of Bogolyubsky
            4. Alexey-74
              Alexey-74 26 September 2017 10: 37
              0
              Here's another: Among those who persistently proved the importance of the state and the need to re-examine the skeleton of Andrei Bogolyubsky, there was Professor Viktor Zvyagin, head of the department of forensic medical identification of the Russian center for forensic medical examination. He is a participant in many well-known expertises of particular complexity, conducted on the instructions of the Government of Russia and the Prosecutor General. Including: identification of the remains of the Russian Emperor Nicholas II and members of his family, victims of the wreck of the ship "Admiral Nakhimov", research on the remains of navigator Vitus Bering, members of his crew, Admiral of the Russian Navy Fedor Ushakov ...

              “It is not news to Vladimir forensic experts that I have been following the fate of Prince Andrei’s remains for many years,” Viktor Nikolayevich said. “At the same time, I studied materials on his father, Yuri Dolgoruky, who was allegedly buried in the Kiev Pechersk Lavra.” Naturally, the skeleton of his son could be the best object to compare with the possible remains of the founder of Moscow.

              Having received support from the Yuri Dolgoruky Foundation and a blessing to study the remains of Andrei Bogolyubsky directly in the Assumption Cathedral with the Archbishop of Vladimir and Suzdal Evlogy, the scientist set to work.

              July 25, 2007 the remains of Andrei Bogolyubsky again appeared before forensic doctors. All the preliminary work in the right wing of the Assumption Cathedral with the opening of the tomb crayfish took about three days from Professor Zvyagin and his department employee Nina Narina. Six months later, in February 2008, the first research results were received at the Vladimir Bureau of Forensic Expertise on fourteen pages of typewriting. Here is the most important conclusion: "Thus, the opinion of Prof. M. M. Gerasimov (1949) about the presence of Mongoloid features of the appearance of Andrei Bogolyubsky, based on a visual analysis of craniological data, is subjective, not supported by the results of this study. Conclusions: the studied skull reliably belonged to a man of the Caucasian race with an appearance characteristic of representatives of the Middle European anthropological type. "


              The monument should be similar!

              In March, Vladimir Zvyagin specially arrived in Vladimir to meet with the sculptor Igor Chernoglazov. His project of a monument to Andrei Bogolyubsky won the city competition. But the project was created taking into account the reconstruction of Gerasimov! So historical justice required an amendment.

              The differences, in comparison with the "old" sculptural portrait, are very significant, and Professor Zvyagin commented on them:

              The eyebrows in our portrait are omitted below, the superciliary arches are medium, not so massive, the section of the eyes is horizontal, not elongated, the cheekbones are not protruding, the face as a whole is rather narrow. Well, and most importantly. At the time of M. Gerasimov, there was no method for determining the race by the skull, which is now available to any forensic expert, anthropologist. According to racial characteristics, the skull of Bogolyubsky does not belong to the Mongoloid race, but to a pure Caucasoid. Outwardly, he was a man of the Middle European type, a kind of man from the Vladimir or Yaroslavl provinces, who can be found in any crowded place ... Bogolyubsky should appear before us in the guise of a horseman - a strong, large, courageous man, tall enough for that time - in 170-172 centimeters.
          3. Rivares
            Rivares 24 September 2017 22: 20
            0
            Quote: Operator
            The Russians with filthy (that with the Gentiles, that with the Muslims)

            So the Rus themselves worshiped in those days Perun, Svarog, Dazhdbog and many other gods.
            1. Operator
              Operator 24 September 2017 22: 59
              0
              I’m not talking about Russians (people from the Rurik tribe), but about Russians / Russians - the titular people of the Russian Land, the Grand Duchy of Moscow and the Russian Kingdom.
        2. g1v2
          g1v2 23 September 2017 20: 58
          +1
          Under feudalism, it is not necessary that under the authority of one ruler there should be one ethnos. Just look at the possessions of the English kings and French feudal lords. I'm not talking about the Holy Roman Empire. And later on, the Habsburgs ruled wonderfully a bunch of the most diverse countries and peoples. The same Spaniards, Hungarians and Austrians. request Everything is tied to the ruling dynasty there. And the people subject to her did not have citizenship, but citizenship. That is, everything determined whose subject or vassal was a particular feudal lord. But naturally, religion played a central role, but everywhere in different ways. In the same Golden Horde there was no religious confrontation - there were Orthodox, Muslims and pagans. However, they were all subjects of the Genghisids. request
        3. The centurion
          The centurion 24 September 2017 13: 29
          +1
          Quote: Luga
          the departure of the Horde to Islam put an end to all the ideas of uniting Russia and the Horde in a single ethnic group

          "Khan Uzbek believed that the state interests of the Golden Horde are to get closer to the Egyptian Mamelukes, which were then ethnically close to the Tatars. He ordered all Tatars to become Muslims and made Islam the state religion of the Golden Horde. For the refusal to accept Islam, the Uzbek executed 120 relatives, cousins ​​and second cousins. As a result, the policy of Islamization in the subsequent Horde dynastic troubles became aggravated and the religious factor was also actively present. The adoption of one state religion in a multi-confessional state, of course, it accelerated its self-destruction and disintegration, because nothing separates people more than religious and ideological predilections and coercions. As a result of religious oppression of the authorities, the cause of faith began to grow from the Horde. to the Turks, Christians to Lithuania or to the Zaleskiy Horde (Russian Ulus), whose inhabitants, according to the laws of Khan Uzbek, had the right to practice Christianity. In the end, even the Metropolitan moved from Barn to Krutitsk near Moscow. In addition, there was another way out. On the territory of the Golden Horde there were places where in fact there was no power. In these "buffer" zones, the Tatars, who fled Islamization, together with representatives of other nations, organized Cossack freemen. "
  3. parusnik
    parusnik 23 September 2017 07: 16
    +8
    In relations with Russia, Mamai behaved in a contradictory way - he supported Dmitry Moskovsky, then Mikhail Tversky.
    .... Somehow it is mildly said. Intervened in the internecine struggle of the Russian principalities. He pursued a policy of "divide and conquer" so that the Russian lands would not be united ...
    1. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 23 September 2017 07: 45
      +3
      Quote: parusnik
      ..Something mildly said. Interfered in the internecine struggle of the Russian principalities. He pursued a policy of "divide and conquer" so that the Russian lands would not be united ...
      Our ancestors were able to unite nevertheless, to create the largest state in terms of area. It turns out, so far, the outside world does not accept this. Doesn't want to accept.
  4. Basil50
    Basil50 23 September 2017 07: 36
    10
    An example of how church writings become sort of historical evidence. God forbid allah Buddha to doubt. The feelings of the believer at once will be offended. You can also go to court or how to express your insult.
    Neither Peresvet nor Oslyaby could not be monks. Even the names talk about it. Dmitry Donskoy did not receive blessings from the church and from Radonezh, because of the * priest Mitya * whom the churchmen poisoned. DMITRY DONSKY transferred the command of hell to his friend to the army precisely because of the anathema of the church. In the front regiment, Dmitry Donskoy was just a warrior.
    The RUSSIAN people WITHOUT a church completed the MILITARY ACTION.
    The Church, as always tries to attribute another's feat to itself, at the same time shifting its own villainy to others.
    1. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 23 September 2017 08: 59
      +2
      I don’t know what to say to this. I am from an atheist family. BUT it seems to me that it’s not good on the bus if he is driving along a narrow, unusable road, pushing, swearing: ““ You weren’t standing here. ”“ Somehow.
    2. Basil50
      Basil50 23 September 2017 14: 49
      +5
      reptiloid
      It is a shame when someone else’s exploits are appropriated by those who are not involved in this. Moreover, the church was AGAINST the battle with Mamaia. It was not possible to appropriate the glory of the winners, and so they began to lie about Peresvet and about blessing and about the fact that nothing is done without the church. And how many lies today about the GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR. Already there are fairy tales and other blessings about the miraculous icons and a lot of things ....
      1. Aposlya
        Aposlya 23 September 2017 15: 23
        +2
        + Vasily50 According to legend, Peresvet died in a duel, but in Zadonshchina he survived .... Where is the truth?
        1. avt
          avt 23 September 2017 18: 09
          0
          Quote: Aposlya
          according to legend, Peresvet died in a duel, but in "Zadonshchina" he survived .... Where is the truth?

          In Moscow. The metro station ,, Avtozavodskaya "is exactly in the temple over two graves - Peresvet and Oslyaby.
          Quote: Vasily50
          Moreover, the church was AGAINST the battle with Mamaia.

          Well, something like that. Sergius somehow hesitated initially.
          Quote: Vasily50
          DMITRY DONSKY transferred the command of hell to his friend to the army precisely because of the anathema of the church. In the front regiment, Dmitry Donskoy was just a warrior.

          But this is a really interesting fact, at that time it was ABSOLUTELY impossible for the commander, and in fact up to the century of rifled, magazine weapons and breech-loading artillery.
          Quote: Luga
          Then the question is: why did Dmitry run north to the forests, and not south to his ally and overlord Tokhtamysh?

          wassat It began to be KOSTROMA dense forest! ?? bully
      2. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid 23 September 2017 15: 41
        +2
        Vasily50! It just seems to me that the main thing is ------ in the icon from the metropolitan Hohenzollern, which I wrote about more than once (but few people understood me), and also in the fact that Nikolai2 excommunicated all the Kirillovichs from the Russian throne, .... One and the same subject cannot immediately be in 2 places ..... This is not something that is in the depths of centuries, it is that right now ------ Nazis on the icon in the Russian Federation.
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 23 September 2017 18: 12
          +3
          Quote: Reptiloid
          . One and the same subject cannot immediately be in 2 places ..... This is not something that is centuries old, it is that right now ------ Nazis on the icon in the Russian Federation.

          Understood nothing. Dim, can you explain?
          1. Reptiloid
            Reptiloid 23 September 2017 18: 48
            +1
            If Nikolay2, as some say, is a saint, forbade all Kirillovichs even to claim the Russian throne, then how can parties be different with the Hohenzollers?
            How can it be right now an icon with fascists in Russia. I advise you once again to make a request "" which icon was presented by m. Hohenzollern "". What is happening now
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 23 September 2017 18: 56
              +4
              Quote: Reptiloid
              I advise everyone once again to make a request "" which icon was presented by M. Hohenzollern "". What is happening now

              Yeah. Found.
              If I were the queen
              Says one girl,
              That’s for the whole baptized world,
              I would make a feast ... laughing
  5. midshipman
    midshipman 23 September 2017 07: 48
    +8
    Often had to drive past the Kulikovo field. In Kimovsk there was a plant that produced Tropic RSDN stations. From Moscow, he traveled by car sometimes or flew by helicopter. Once with the Customers (Heads of Departments of the Ministry of Defense of the USSR) passed this field and were surprised how so many soldiers could fight in this square. Our military opinion arose, Dmitry Donskoy then used new weapons. This was later confirmed. The Tatar horsemen could not be destroyed repeatedly when attacking the advanced units of the Russian troops. After all, these were cool archery arrows. They fell into the bird from 50 meters. But the author does not write anything about these innovations of our commander Dmitry Donskoy. The prominent commander was Bobrock. But there are no monuments to him. I have the honor.
    1. sabakina
      sabakina 23 September 2017 08: 19
      +6
      To paraphrase a quote from the movie "Watch Out for the Car":
      - Some say that there was a battle, the second that did not. Both are unprovable.
      1. Alexey-74
        Alexey-74 26 September 2017 09: 43
        0
        the battle was unambiguous, but the place of the Kulikovo battle is in question ....
    2. Cartalon
      Cartalon 23 September 2017 09: 25
      +2
      From the 14th century, the landscape could change several times, but whether this field is a question, there couldn’t be so many wars because there weren’t so many of them after 200 years from Ivan the Terrible with a maximum of 65 thousand people.
      1. Hantengri
        Hantengri 23 September 2017 10: 39
        +3
        Quote: Cartalon
        Since the 14th century, the landscape could change several times, but whether this field is a question,

        And it changed, and that field, but not quite, and so many people on it ("from 50-60 thousand to 100-150 thousand people") will not fit and there were no pawns there:
        Mikhail Rodin: When we come to Kulikovo Field now, we see a huge, even glade.

        Oleg Dvurechensky: This is an agrolandscape created by Soviet collective farmers. Which plowed fields, brought forests, leveled beams and ravines.

        But it is worthwhile to apply paleolandscape methods, which was done by the outstanding researcher Maya Pavlovna Glasko, who carried out these studies for many years with her selfless work: thousands, tens of thousands of pits, to reconstruct the scene of the battle at the end of the XNUMXth century.
        .
        Now, if we arrive at the battlefield, on Red Hill, where the column stands, we will just see huge fields. But if we try to 3D reconstruct this place, we will see the so-called platformers. These are horizontal dry long sections, free from ravine-beam mesh. These are areas where a battle was possible.

        Thanks to these studies, we have in the vast territory around the confluence of the Don and Nepryadva only three such placors, three sites free for field battle. And only one of these three sections reconstructed now has approaches both from the south and from the north. The remaining two are water-limited bags.

        And it was on this site for 12 years of work that an accumulation of things was found that illustrate the armament of XIII-XV, or even very narrowly: the end of the XIV-beginning of the XV centuries. It is about one and a half kilometers along the front, and about 4 km deep.
        .
        To study the military field, not understanding how they were built in those days, is useless. The troops were built in two flights of arrows, this is approximately 200 steps. And we began to find only in the middle. And arrowheads. But mostly - fragments of chopping weapons: battle axes, sabers. Things that relate to a belt headset, bags, Horde coins. In the open field.

        The reconstruction is consistent with the description of the medieval battle of that time: this is a cavalry collision, or, as it was called then, a souim. This is not some standing army that takes the brunt. I spent five years of work to check this version. I went to all the sites where, in our opinion, our unit stood. And only in the middle we went find. There were about 50 such fragments. This testified to the collapse of heavily armed cavalry. https://vk.com/wall-32482446_232940?offset=last&a
        mp; f = replies
        1. Operator
          Operator 23 September 2017 14: 02
          +2
          The Battle of Kulikovo took place near the source of the Nepryadva River from Lake Volovo (now reduced to a spring).

          Dumb and illiterate Russian / Soviet historians (including academics, damn it) who claimed that the battle took place at the mouth of the Nepryadva River (according to verbatim records in Russian chronicles) over 67 km from the actual battlefield, did not bother to find out what XIV century (as well as in subsequent 300 years) the source of the river was called the mouth.
          1. Hantengri
            Hantengri 23 September 2017 16: 49
            +8
            Quote: Operator
            The Battle of Kulikovo took place near the source of the Nepryadva River from Lake Volovo (now reduced to a spring).

            Archaeologists, specifically Oleg Dvurechensky, discovered Kulikovo Field, namely] in the Mouth of Nepryadva, at its merger with the Don. And there they discovered MATERIAL traces of the "DON massacre", so, according to the annals, the Battle of Kulikovo is called. But you, of course, archeology is not a decree. You can see better from the sofa !!!
            Quote: Operator
            Dumb and illiterate Russian / Soviet historians (including academics, damn it)

            РќСѓ, РґР °! laughing You alone - d'Artagnan, all in white! lol Here, therefore, they do not take off your straitjacket ... crying
            1. Operator
              Operator 23 September 2017 17: 46
              0
              It’s a matter of fact — in Uzbekistan it is more visible how in the 14 century in Russia the sources of rivers and ogas were called.

              "D. Bily", - S. Lavrov (C)
              1. Hantengri
                Hantengri 23 September 2017 18: 26
                +3
                Wai, Daragoy, such a science - archeology know? Do you know how the result of such sciences differs from your past opinions? Yuk? Tagdi Lavrov spoke tebu! laughing Chushidimi? lol
            2. avt
              avt 23 September 2017 18: 23
              +1
              Quote: HanTengri
              And there they found MATERIAL traces of the "DON slaughter"

              wassat Are you soooooooo ?! Did they find it right? Well, mass graves, because upon giving the Don THREE DAYS stood, collecting the wounded and burying the dead. Well, after a lapse of time, he built temples in the entom place. So what ? Found the foundations? bully But how interesting it is - in Moscow, like the church at the Simonov Monastery with the burial of Oslyaby and Peresvet (which, again, according to the then realities, wa-a-apche is not Moscow), and on Pererva, neither more nor less than the CATHEDRAL stands in place of the church founded by Donskoy in memory of the battle. Here are some of these pies ?? Well, if from near Kolomna Oslyabyu with Peresvet still drove and not taken to the Trinity. Again, Dmitry didn’t know where he fought the battle with Mamai and soaked the temple of memory on Pererve (and THEN during his lifetime, it’s not even not landing - not even close to Moscow Region) wassat Let me guess - Dmitry did not know for his illiteracy because
              Quote: HanTengri
              Archaeologists, specifically Oleg Dvurechensky, discovered Kulikovo Field, namely] in the Mouth of Nepryadva, at its merger with the Don.
              By the way! In Moscow, CATHEDRES are only in the Kremlin, at the summer residence of Lesha Tishayshogo in Izmailovo (which is logical, as with the Kremlin, the place of the royal residence) and .... on Pererva, and not in Kolomenskoye - another country residence of Lesha, namely at the Break! The distance, at that time, is substantial and to the overall dimensions of the then Moscow, even not lying nearby
              request bully
              Quote: mac789
              . Based on the foregoing, I can assume that the site of the Battle of Kulikovo was several kilometers west of the Memorial. Therefore, almost no artifacts were found around the memorial. It would not be bad to organize an archaeological expedition there.

              Can . it’s possible how that drunk at night was looking for a wallet that he had lost nearby in an unlit alley. Well, where Nikolasha No. 1 ordered to erect a monument of the SECOND category.
              1. Hantengri
                Hantengri 23 September 2017 18: 50
                +1
                Quote: avt
                Are you soooooooo ?! Did they find it right?

                Taki, yes! http://www.razym.ru/naukaobraz/istoriya/336386-dv
                urechenskiy-o-relikvii-donskogo-poboischa-nahodki
                -na-kulikovom-pole.html

                https://scisne.net/a-2487
              2. mac789
                mac789 23 September 2017 20: 47
                +1
                Well, firstly there is more than one monument. Secondly, too many place names coincide with the annals. Well, in the third - Schliemann ...
    3. mac789
      mac789 23 September 2017 16: 25
      +1
      I climbed onto Yandex maps. Found a memorial to the Battle of Kulikovo. That’s an interesting thing. According to the annals, Dmitry Donskoy, crossing the Don near the confluence of Nepryadva, located his army, covering the left flank with the Smolka River, and the lower river the lower Dubyak with ravine banks. So, the Smolka River is located to the right of the memorial, if you stand with your back to the Don. Yandex does not see the Nizhny Dubyak River, but there is the Dubiki River flowing into Nepryadva, and below the Dubiks along the Nepryadva River, the mouths of several ravines go to it. Perhaps one of them is the Lower Dubyak. Based on the foregoing, I can assume that the site of the Battle of Kulikovo was several kilometers west of the Memorial. Therefore, almost no artifacts were found around the memorial. It would not be bad to organize an archaeological expedition there. Yes, and there is plenty of room for hundreds of thousands of armies.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 23 September 2017 18: 18
        +3
        Quote: mac789
        It would not be bad to organize an archaeological expedition there.

        Yeah. He was in the museum on the Kulikovo field in the 80s. In addition to the sword, helmet, and chain mail, he remembered nothing. And the museum itself is one name.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Hantengri
        Hantengri 24 September 2017 18: 25
        0
        Quote: mac789
        It would not be bad to organize an archaeological expedition there.

        Yoklmn! Too lazy to get up from the couch? Hammer in Google: "Don battle" and you will be happy! 1) https://scisne.net/a-2487 2) http://www.razym.ru/naukaobraz/istoriya/336386-dv
        urechenskiy-o-relikvii-donskogo-poboischa-nahodki
        -na-kulikovom-pole.html 3) https://vk.com/wall-32482446_232940?offset=last&a
        mp; amp; amp; f = replies 4) https://oper.ru/video/view.php?t=1263
        Need more? Are these excavations not enough?
        1. mac789
          mac789 24 September 2017 21: 53
          0
          Get up from the couch is not laziness. My phone doesn’t accept your links and doesn’t allow copying. But! Today I went to my relatives, named after the mountain beer. I found a funny flat stone, measuring approximately 20 # 15cm with two drilled holes with a diameter of 1cm each. Obviously not an ax, the stone is soft. Maybe some detail of a stone age trap was loaded. Interesting. Rome was not yet, the Pyramids were not yet, and people lived and worked in my native mountains.
          P.S. Unfortunately, the site does not allow you to upload photos from your phone. hi
          1. Hantengri
            Hantengri 25 September 2017 10: 21
            0
            Quote: mac789
            But! Today I went to my relatives, named after the mountain beer.

            I envy white envy! That is OK. I’ll go on Friday, about five days if the weather doesn’t turn bad.
            1. mac789
              mac789 25 September 2017 12: 11
              0
              I was only half a day and was able to get out.
              1. Hantengri
                Hantengri 25 September 2017 13: 08
                0
                But with the booty! drinks
        2. mac789
          mac789 27 September 2017 13: 56
          0
          Today reached the "hands". I watched a lecture by an archaeologist. Largely disagree with the lecturer. Firstly, the distance along the front from the Russians in the most probable places is about two kilometers. Our central square measuring 500 by 300 meters easily accommodates one hundred and two hundred thousand people, and still a place remains. They really are without horses. The attack of Mamai was also not sudden. There was time for preparation. I also do not agree that the infantry could not fight with the Tatar cavalry. The infantry could not chase after it. But to repel the attack completely. The lecturer says that the infantry would be bombarded with arrows. But firstly: the infantry also had bows and, more importantly, self-arrows (require less skill than a combat bow). In addition, the Russian infantry shield is much larger than the Horde equestrian, especially in the ranks, and the Russians were very good in the ranks. An equestrian warrior, although a more mobile target than an infantryman, is also a larger one. As for the armor, the warriors and those who were richer had chain mail. The rest have hemp and bovine skin that goes to soles. Armament ... Well, axes and bastards could afford everything. And the saber is not stash with them, I checked. And Moscow princes owned an impressive arsenal to arm the militia. As for mobilization opportunities, one courtyard was equipped with several yards, plus volunteers. And even a bunch of Tatars drowned in Nepryadva after being hit by an ambush regiment. Many artifacts could be preserved there.
  6. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 23 September 2017 08: 10
    +3
    The article is interesting in describing the internal relations and personality of Mamaia. Everything else is a general word about the event.
  7. Gardamir
    Gardamir 23 September 2017 08: 18
    +8
    All this is of course interesting. At school they crammed and received fives.
    But let's say Peter changed the dating and changed twice more. Date may be inaccurate. And when you look at how diligently the current administration of Russia is rewriting a very recent history, you begin to doubt the more ancient one. In any case, the Soviet Union was not liberated by the St. George cavaliers and not under double-headed eagles.
    And in those days the invasion of the "Mongol-Tatars" was almost at the same time as the crusades of European knights. And for some reason, the khans supported the church.
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 23 September 2017 09: 25
      +3
      Quote: Gardamir
      And for some reason, the khans supported the church.

      It depends on what. The struggle was between the old faith of the ancestors and the faith that carried slavery. Aggressive Christianity was coming from Europe to Russia, which had already destroyed a good half of humanity there in the wars and bonfires of the Inquisition ... Christians won and in order to hide their atrocities over the Orthodox and Orthodox believers, they came up with a Tatar-Mongol who did not exist.
      1. Gardamir
        Gardamir 23 September 2017 09: 54
        +2
        which spawn was not.
        You just confirmed my words. It’s just that with age, time has come to think. At school, the main thing is to give the answer the teacher needs. But many after school were not interested in anything and defend their school fives with foam at the mouth.
      2. creak
        creak 23 September 2017 10: 56
        +3
        Quote: Boris55
        Aggressive Christianity came from Europe to Russia

        Well, just a masterpiece - not even every victim of the EGE is able to give such a ... fool And what religion in this case was practiced in Russia - is it really Buddhism? .... recourse When did the Orthodox cease to be Christians?
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 23 September 2017 11: 45
          +2
          Quote: ranger
          And what religion in this case was practiced in Russia - is it really Buddhism?

          Orthodoxy and faith. Some praised the right, others were true and there was no misunderstanding between them. What is the right, reality and nav described by the ancient Russian philosopher long before the birth of the prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) - an Internet to help you.
          Quote: ranger
          When did the Orthodox cease to be Christians?

          The question is fundamentally raised incorrectly. The question should be posed as follows: "When did Christianity become Orthodox?" As far as everyone knows, Vladimir accepted the Christian faith ...
          The so-called Tatar-Mongols hindered the Christianization of Russia for 300 years. It’s a pity that we lost that battle. But the war is not over, it continues to this day. Its echoes are expressed in the presence of the Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox Church.
          1. creak
            creak 23 September 2017 12: 13
            +4
            Quote: Boris55
            Orthodoxy and faith. Some praised the right, others were true and there was no misunderstanding between them. What is the right, reality and nav described by the ancient Russian philosopher long before the birth of the prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) - an Internet to help you.

            Fomenko to help you, but fire me .... hi
            1. Boris55
              Boris55 23 September 2017 12: 17
              0
              Quote: ranger
              Fomenko to help you, but fire me ....

              I'm not interested in him. hi
              1. Boris55
                Boris55 23 September 2017 13: 12
                +1
                Rule - “Ruling”, “Governing”, “That which rules” (Causal, Causal, Fiery world), one of the three components of the world. The rule is invisible, unlike Navi, which is sometimes visible, and sometimes creatures "from the other side" - Navi (Navi) appear or appear in Yav (waking).
                Reality - “Explicit”, “Manifested” (Physical; what is here in this world; “this light”), one of the three components of the world.
                Nav - “He-Yav”, “Implicit”, “Unmanifest” (Subtle world, “That Light”), one of the three components of the world.
                Rule - there is a single integral complex of laws of development of the Universe and all that exists, subject only to the One God.
                Reality - the world that people are able to feel with their senses and manifest it in their minds.
                Nav - a world that exists in nature, but not accessible to our perception.
                “Before there is Nav, after there is Nav,” says Velesova Book. “He knows what came before them, and what comes after them ...” says the Qur'an. Both that and another expression speaks of information, the indestructibility of which was asserted by M. A Bulgakov: "Manuscripts do not burn."
                And, finally, Nav (Information) through the controlling influence of the Law (Measure) materializes into reality (Matter).
                With this Triglav, Dazhbo argues that the process of Creation is controlled in nature and is carried out through the rule (management is carried out according to the measure defined by God).
                Triglav "Prav-Jav-Nav"There is nothing but an ancient analogue of the modern trinity of us"Measure-Matter-Information”, Which is the fundamental principle, a kind of foundation of the Public Safety Concept. Dazhbo managed to express in extremely generalized terms the fundamental principle of the Universe, i.e., speaking in modern language, this was the greatest philosopher of his time.
                However, someone really needs the Russians to have their own roots, not have their own written language, not have their own outstanding philosophers of antiquity, etc., and everything would start with the baptism of Russia.
                Excerpt from the book of K.P. Petrova: "Secrets of the management of humanity."
                1. Hantengri
                  Hantengri 23 September 2017 14: 00
                  +6
                  Quote: Boris55
                  “Before there is Nav, after there is Nav,” says Veles book.

                  You would have referred to Harry Potter! laughing
                  1. Boris55
                    Boris55 23 September 2017 15: 05
                    +2
                    Quote: HanTengri
                    You would have referred to Harry Potter! laughing

                    Four-headed Amun and the Holy Trinity
                    Let us turn to the primary sources.
                    In the “Book for the initial reading” by V. Vodovozov (St. Petersburg, 1878), which was intended for the self-education of “ordinary people” in Russia, in the chapter on the views on the universe of the ancient Egyptians we read:
                    “The most important caste governing everything was the caste of the clergy or priests. They also prescribed to the king (i.e., Pharaoh) how to live and what to do ... Amun was the supreme deity of the Egyptians. Four deities united in his face: the substance of which everything in the world consists - the goddess No; the spirit animating matter, or the force that makes it compose, change, act, is the god Nef; the infinite space occupied by matter is the goddess Pasht; the infinite time that seems to us with constant changes in matter is the god Sebek. Everything that is in the world, according to the teachings of the Egyptians, comes from matter through the action of an invisible force, occupies space and changes in time, and all this is mysteriously connected in a four-being, Amune. ”
                    Thus: NO - corresponds to modern substance; NEF - to force fields; PAST - to space; SEBEC - time.
                    It turns out that for more than three millennia the concept of the universe, which the priests presented to the whole society as truth, has remained unchanged and modern science uses the same ideas for us:
                    1. Matter is matter.
                    2. Spirit, now understood as “energy” (but “energy” is just a transitional form of existence of matter). Some people understand the spirit as “power” (a force field attributed to matter by dialectical materialism), as a “governing principle”, that is, information.
                    3. Space.
                    4. Time.
                    However, from another book - “The Holy Book of Thoth. The Great Arcana of the Tarot ”by V. Shmakov, engineer of communications, publication of the 1916 of the year — we learn that for the“ specially consecrated ”, for the“ chosen ones ”, another three thousand years ago was given a different view of the universe:
                    “In thirty two ways - wonderful, wise, he wrote 1A, IEBE, the Host of Israel, the God of Israel, the Living God and the Eternal King, El Shaddai, the Merciful and Forgiving, the Exalted and Abiding in eternity, His Name is exalted and holy, and He created His peace three seferim: sephar, sipur and sefer. ”Here Shmakov quotes one of the books of the Talmud“ Sepher Yetzirah ”, that is, the“ Book of Creation ”.
                    Further, in a footnote, Shmakov gives an explanation: “The first of these three terms (Sephar) should mean the numbers that alone give us the opportunity to determine the necessary purposes and relations of each (in context, perhaps: a person) and things in order to understand the purpose for which it was created, and a measure of length, and a measure of capacity, and a measure of weight, movement and harmony - all these things are controlled by numbers.
                    The second term (Sipur) expresses a word and voice, because it is a Divine word and voice, because it is a Divine Word, it is the Voice of the Living God, Who gave birth to beings under their various forms, be they external, be they internal; it should be implied in these words: “God said:“ Let there be Light ”and“ Light became. ”
                    Finally, the third term (Sepher) means scripture. The scripture of God is the fruit of creation.
                    God's Word is His Scripture, God's Thought is the Word.
                    Thus, thought, word and scripture are in God only one thing, while in man they are three. " This note V. Shmakov quotes from another book - “Cuzary”.
                    This trinity (Sephar, Sipur, Sefer) corresponds to the trinity:
                    1. Sephar - measure (form, matrix).
                    2. Sipur - information (content, what is contained in form, meaning, idea). The Lata "informatio" - explanation, exposition. 1. A message about something. 2. Information that is the object of storage, processing and transmission (dictionary of foreign words). English “in” - in Russian the preposition “in” and “form” - in Russian “the form of the subject, the figure of a person”, etc., “in the form” - in Russian “in the form”, then there is what is contained in the form.
                    3. Sefer - matter (fruits of creation, “things”, as an embodied unity of form and content).
                    In Nature, this “holy trinity” is inextricable: “So thought, word and scripture are only one thing in God ...”.

                    Excerpt from the book of K.P. Petrova: "Secrets of the management of humanity."
                    1. Boris55
                      Boris55 23 September 2017 15: 21
                      0
                      Russian ascetics certainly inherited this ancient knowledge of their Slav ancestors. And no matter how hard the distortionists of the history of our country tried to hide the truth from us, however, "there is nothing secret that would not become apparent over time." The truth still breaks out. So, for example, describing the "Life of the Monk Sergius of Radonezh ”(publication of his own printing press of the Holy Trinity St. Sergius Lavra, 1904), Archimandrite Nikon on page 172, talking about the events preceding the Battle of Kulikovo, writes:
                      “The holy elder foresaw in spirit the need to further strengthen the courage of the Grand Duke before the battle itself, and to send him the blessedness of the Mother of God prosphora and hand-written diploma, the end of which was preserved for posterity by one of our chronicles. This diploma, exhorting the Grand Duke to fight courageously for the cause of God and to remain in the undoubted hope that God will crown their cause with successful success, ended with the following saying: "so that you, gentleman, may go and help God and the Trinity."
                      Trying to somehow explain the separation of God and the Trinity by Sergius of Radonezh, the commentary gives a ridiculous frivolous interpretation that under the "Trinity" Sergius of Radonezh apparently had a "church of the Most Holy Trinity." Sergius of Radonezh was not one of those who would allow himself statements that can be interpreted by anyone as he pleases. In this case, he did not even say, but wrote: “God and the Trinity!»
                      It makes sense to think about the content and origins of the Russian proverb; "God loves the trinity!". After all, Christianity redid and adopted many images, rites and holidays of the Slavs. We will return shortly to this conversation in one of the applications.
                      Symbols of the opposition of the worldviews of the Old Russian priesthood and the ancient Egyptian priesthood are:
                      - Russian troika,
                      - Egyptian quadriga (Greek, Roman, Byzantine, now western).

                      Excerpt from the book of K.P. Petrova: "Secrets of the management of humanity."
                    2. Hantengri
                      Hantengri 23 September 2017 17: 18
                      +4
                      Quote: Boris55
                      Let us turn to the primary sources.
                      In the "Book for the initial reading" by V. Vodovozov (St. Petersburg, 1878)

                      Well ... if this is for you fountainhead lol .... a straitjacket does not press? Galoperedolchik how? Comes in well? laughing
                      But I, naive, just wanted to find out - how does the fake, under the name: "Veles book" confirms your conclusions? (hand face)!
            2. Curious
              Curious 23 September 2017 13: 00
              +3
              Fomenko is not quoted. because claims to be part of the "historical legacy".
              1. Boris55
                Boris55 23 September 2017 15: 37
                0
                Quote: Curious
                Fomenko is not quoted. because claims to be part of the "historical legacy".

                All books and other materials published by the USSR VP NOT are copyrighted and distributed freely. Everyone has the right to use them at their discretion.
                1. Curious
                  Curious 23 September 2017 15: 58
                  +1
                  And where does the USSR VP?
                  1. Boris55
                    Boris55 23 September 2017 16: 46
                    0
                    Quote: Curious
                    And where does the USSR VP?

                    Book of General K.P. Petrova: "Secrets of the management of mankind" was written based on the materials of the Internal Predictor (proofreader) of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
                    1. Curious
                      Curious 23 September 2017 19: 36
                      +1
                      "The book of General KP Petrov:" Secrets of the management of mankind "is based on the materials of the Inner Predictor (proofreader) of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" under the influence of hard gamma radiation and toxic vapors of heptyl.
                      1. Boris55
                        Boris55 23 September 2017 21: 00
                        0
                        Quote: Curious
                        under the influence of hard gamma radiation and toxic vapors of heptyl.

                        Oooooh, how you got so excited. Listen to the song, maybe let it go laughing
                    2. Thunderbolt
                      Thunderbolt 23 September 2017 22: 02
                      +1
                      Quote: Boris55
                      Book of General K.P. Petrova: "Secrets of the management of mankind" was written based on the materials of the Internal Predictor (proofreader) of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

                      Petrov’s book “Secrets of the management of humanity, or the Secrets of globalization” in two volumes is included in Federal List of Extremist Materials, Number 1463. The decision was confirmed on appeal in 2015.
                      1. Boris55
                        Boris55 24 September 2017 08: 17
                        0
                        Quote: Thunderbolt
                        Book of Petrov "Secrets of the management of humanity, or the Secrets of globalization"

                        The bourgeois defend their bourgeoisie by all means available to them. The next day, after making Pktrov’s two-volume volume on the list of extremist materials, Putin said the following:
            3. Gardamir
              Gardamir 23 September 2017 15: 22
              +2
              Fomenko to help you, but fire me.
              You are like a fan, you haven’t seen the works of Fomenko, but you condemn.
              1. creak
                creak 23 September 2017 16: 46
                +2
                Quote: Gardamir
                You are like a fan, you haven’t seen the works of Fomenko, but you condemn.

                I had a dubious pleasure to get acquainted with his views - I am not his fan, but there is no condemnation in my comment ..
                You, as Fomenko, conjecture what was not ....
    2. Molot1979
      Molot1979 23 September 2017 10: 11
      +5
      Khans supported any church. Jae is not Christian. This has been the case since the time of Genghis-henna, who knew something about the administration and did not consider it necessary to dragon his subjects once again. Therefore, in Central Asia, in China, in Russia, the Mongols first of all established fruitful cooperation with the local clergy. It is neither bad nor good, it was just that. But the clergy and had no other choice.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 23 September 2017 10: 59
        +4
        Moreover, many Mongols professed Nestorian Christianity.
    3. Nicholas C.
      Nicholas C. 23 September 2017 14: 52
      +3
      Quote: Gardamir
      The Soviet Union was not liberated by the cavaliers of St. George

      You-belolentochnikam with your propaganda is not here. (Belolentochnikov’s flag is also probably white so that he’s immediately captured). My father liberated the USSR and half of Europe under this ribbon, and someone under those nearby.
      1. Gardamir
        Gardamir 23 September 2017 15: 20
        0
        My father liberated the USSR
        If you do not lie? And you are lying! You and your kind are the haters of Russia. Firstly, despite the outward similarity, the George Crosses and the Order of Glory are not the same thing. Secondly, you and others like you are pushing into the consciousness that the symbol of valor can be worn by anyone, anywhere and anytime.
        1. Nicholas C.
          Nicholas C. 23 September 2017 16: 41
          +3
          In my opinion, only scoundrels lie. Especially disgusting when they lie from abroad, hiding behind a red flag. Because in Russia everybody knows that wearing the St. George ribbon is strictly regulated. About this you can read, for example, here: https://news.mail.ru/society/29639734/
          The theme of the St. George ribbon was actively used in the USSR. I lived in those days and remember them well. Here you can see some postcards: evesnewyear.com/den-pobedyi-9-maya/strannyie-sove
          tskie-otkryitki-s-9-maya.html


          My father went to the partisans at 15. Then he fought in Batov’s 65th army, participated in the Berlin operation, ended the war at the age of 18 on the Baltic coast near Rostock. how ALL combatants received a medal on the St. George ribbon. In each of our families there is such a tape. Well, the descendants fought from the SS division "Galichina", the descendants of the police do not have such a tape. So they hate our Russian characters, in Jesuit, as is customary, lie, pretending to be one of us. You can kill yourself from hatred, and we wore and will wear the St. George ribbon.
          1. Gardamir
            Gardamir 23 September 2017 17: 28
            +1
            when they lie from abroad, hiding behind a red flag.
            or is it not about me or is this your first lie!
            The theme of the St. George ribbon was actively used in the USSR. I lived in those days and remember them well.
            that is, the word guards is deeply disgusting to you?
            Russian characters
            brought by a German and similar to the Saxon flag.
            You betray the memory of your father, who went to battle under the Red Banner. My father for the liberation of Zaporozhye was awarded the Red Star. So I was and is Soviet, and you Russians can spit on the history of the motherland, you can only express contempt.
            1. Cartalon
              Cartalon 23 September 2017 19: 54
              +1
              As your contempt is of little concern, we will figure out how to relate to our history.
            2. Nicholas C.
              Nicholas C. 23 September 2017 21: 37
              +1
              Quote: Gardamir
              to you Russians spitting in the history of the motherland, one can express only contempt.

              That’s all cleared up. Employees of the junta ministry of truth teach us Russians to love their homeland. And we have one homeland. Including my grandfather, who fought for his homeland back in the Great War, and for his father, who fought in the Great Patriotic War. And the tapes are one.
              It would be disgusting that the Ukrainian propagandist betrayed his father and now forbids wearing the St. George ribbon. But I just know the situation there, and I know that the Jesuit cannot be trusted - not a word at all. For Russia at all times, trust in the Jesuits ended in oceans of blood. There is only one goal - to sow discord, to pit everyone with everyone, including Communists with those who hold different points of view. In their Ukraine, they not only tear down St. George’s tapes (which they call Colorado tapes from A. Nevzorov’s filing), beating pregnant women, deep old people, children, priests, but they also burn people alive. They did the same thing during their service to Hitler. I just remind you that now in Ukraine the heroes are traitors and Hitler officers, such as Shukhevych. Those thinking differently in power and, especially, in propaganda are not there.
              PS. The propagandist Kovtun also says that his father fought for something there.
              1. Gardamir
                Gardamir 23 September 2017 21: 59
                +1
                us Russians
                that is, RUSSIAN you no longer pronounce?
                that his father fought for something there.
                are you to yourself
                Now in Russia, heroes are traitors and Nazi officers, such as
                Kolchak, Mannerheim, Solzhenitsyn.
                And what are you all capitalist sixes, if you don’t like a person, do you write to Ukrainians? No need to fight a fictional shadow, do not win. Sam-from I am Vyatka and my father is a ottel, but if you heard a rumor about the city of Zaporozhye, this is our Soviet city.
                For stubborn Russians. Repeat and tremble. Russian, Soviet Union, Red, Guard, Stalin!
                1. Kenxnumx
                  Kenxnumx 23 September 2017 22: 51
                  +2
                  And who, as a result, has longer hot Estonian guys?
          2. Kenxnumx
            Kenxnumx 23 September 2017 20: 00
            +3
            For Soviet awards and banners, the ribbon was regulated as guards.
  8. Kenxnumx
    Kenxnumx 23 September 2017 11: 28
    +3
    Dmitry, as a representative of the Golden Horde, punished the usurper Mamaia.
  9. Some kind of compote
    Some kind of compote 23 September 2017 11: 40
    17
    Kulikova battle - the day of the Military Glory of Russia.
    The author - well done that remembered
    And doubly well done - that he wrote good
  10. Operator
    Operator 23 September 2017 11: 47
    +1
    Not an article, but historical dementia - in reality, after the Battle of Kulikovo, the Russians completely poured into the toilet the Kazan, Astrakhan, Siberian and Crimean Khanates, hordes of all kinds of Nogais, Kalmyks, Bashkirs, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Buryats, Tungus, Yakuts, Chukchi, etc. And at the same time, the Glinsky, Yusupovs and other Horde disadvantages.

    The stub of the former Mongol empire, actually Mongolia, still exists, but is located between the hammer (China) and the anvil (Russia).
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 25 September 2017 12: 03
      +2
      "completely merged into the toilet Kazan, Astrakhan, Siberian and Crimean Khanates ..." ///

      Only the Tatars did not know about it, and a couple of times (unknowingly) took
      Moscow ... lol
      1. Operator
        Operator 25 September 2017 21: 29
        0
        In your wet dreams laughing
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 26 September 2017 18: 24
          +1
          Khan Tokhtamysh in 1382, Khan Devlet-Girey in 1572 (under Ivan the Terrible).
          1. Operator
            Operator 27 September 2017 01: 03
            0
            What do you smoke - what kind of 1382 year is it? I pointed out the period under review: the merging into the toilet of the Kazan (1552 year) and Astrakhan (1556 year) khanates.

            The Crimean Tatar Khan Devlet-Girey in the 1571 year (and not in the 1572) was never able to take the city of Moscow itself - the Kremlin, China, the city and the White City, protected by fortress walls at that time. Only the suburban villages suffered from the raid of the Crimean Tatars

            1. Velizariy
              Velizariy 2 October 2017 10: 10
              0
              Quote: Operator
              in the reality after the battle of Kulikovo Russians completely poured into the toilet the Kazan, Astrakhan, Siberian and Crimean Khanates, hordes of all sorts of legs

              This is what you indicated, not the exact time period, but the capture of Berlin in 1945 also happened after the Battle of Kulikovo.
              Quote: voyaka uh
              Khan Devlet-Giray in 1572 (under Ivan the Terrible).

              They didn’t take it, but the very fact of the existence of forces going to Moscow is important, i.e. advancing, and not pouring down the toilet under the blows of the Aryans.)))
              PS Usually Aryans hyperboreans, super-Russians, and other similar elves deny the Battle of Kulikovo. There they have Mamai, either a Cossack, a Pagan Aryan, or some other representative of the elves, but ONLY NOT a TATAR and in some cases NOT a MONGOL, but here the Tatars are fully recognized and the Astrakhan, Crimean and other khanates had their territories! But what about the Aryans from the North Pole to South Africa, who brought "light" to the Sims, but forgot to enlighten the Tatars first ?!
              Or do the Aryans recognize, and the Hyperboreans with the elves deny?
  11. moskowit
    moskowit 23 September 2017 11: 48
    0
    In 1357, the post of Khan of the Golden Horde was taken by Mohammed Berdibek

    And in 1964, the POST of the CPSU Secretary General was taken by Leonid Brezhnev ...
    As the word "Post" is not very "mounted" with the word Khan .....
    1. Curious
      Curious 23 September 2017 13: 03
      +4
      Why not mounted. "The entire Tatar-Mongolian people unanimously expressed their feeling of deep and complete satisfaction regarding the election to the post of khan ..."
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 23 September 2017 13: 17
        +5
        (Long, prolonged applause, turning into a standing ovation. Everyone stands up.)
      2. moskowit
        moskowit 23 September 2017 20: 54
        0
        This is in Kazan recently, so what ???
  12. Svyatoslav
    Svyatoslav 23 September 2017 11: 54
    +2
    Look at the S-Tube performance of Andrei Sinelnikov, "Versions of the Battle of Kulikovo." I believe that everything is stated in it reasonably and reliably.
    All other versions are just shit from the Russian Orthodox Church. By the way, the main enemy in the country for the Russian people, led by Gundyaev.
    1. Curious
      Curious 23 September 2017 13: 37
      +4
      It is clear that any geologist, of whom Sinelnikov is, in history is a cut above any historian. "In the depths of Siberian ores," he dug up arguments and threw falsified historians off the pedestal.
  13. The comment was deleted.
  14. Looking for
    Looking for 23 September 2017 16: 15
    +1
    Everyone imagines himself a strategist, seeing the battle from the side. Damn, I despise all the local idiots here. Historians are shitty. You don’t need to slander the old ones. And think about the current one.
  15. ver_
    ver_ 23 September 2017 17: 17
    +1
    Quote: mordvin xnumx
    Quote: Nikolai S.
    It’s easier to write a new, correct one.

    So take it and write. What is the problem?

    To write is not a problem .. But there was no Mongol invasion. Mongolia was founded in 1920. Tatars as a nationality appeared the same in 1920 by the decision of the CEC - the renaming of the Volga Bulgars into the Tatars. Behind these two events is Ulyanov = Lenin = Blank. A fake about the invasion was created by * historians *-Jews as directed by Lenin .. For this * event * they received good bonuses ... If the people do not know their past, they have no future ...
    Tatar = Khazarin = Hozak = Cossack - equestrian warrior .. Tatars - equestrian squad or cavalry ..
    The historians of Ulyanov = Blanca carried out the substitution of concepts.
    Mogul is one of the names of Russia in antiquity and Mongolia, the model of 1920, is two big differences, but very convenient for defamation = cheating - not everyone will pay attention to this ..
    As well as the fact that all the descendants of Rurik carried the title of Khan ..
    Khan Mamai - the uncle of Khan Tokhtamysh = Dmitry Donskoy .. The Kulikovo battle - this is a quarrel between relatives for power over the Horde - the army ... and therefore for the Throne ..
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 23 September 2017 18: 28
      +4
      Quote: ver_
      Tatars as a nationality appeared the same in 1920 by the decision of the CEC -

      But Ivan the Terrible who fought with?
      Quote: ver_
      Tatar = Khazarin = Hozak = Cossack - equestrian warrior.

      With the Cossacks, it turns out.
      Quote: ver_
      Mogul is one of the names of Russia in antiquity

      We are not very identical.
      Quote: ver_
      Khan Mamai - uncle of Khan Tokhtamysh = Dmitry Donskoy ..

      Uff ... Well, I don’t know what to say.
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 25 September 2017 12: 00
        +2
        "And Ivan the Terrible who fought with?" ////

        With the decision of the Central Executive Committee of 1920. The king disagreed with this decision! am
        And Genghis Khan was invented by Jews who smoked rubbish in Smolny in 1917 belay .

        You will never get bored with Fomenkovites. Why I love them! laughing
        1. Velizariy
          Velizariy 2 October 2017 10: 17
          0
          Quote: voyaka uh
          You will never get bored with Fomenkovites. Why I love them!

          It’s fun for you, the Zionists have created these hyperarians and we want to laugh!)))
      2. Velizariy
        Velizariy 2 October 2017 10: 15
        0
        Quote: Mordvin 3
        Quote: ver_
        Khan Mamai - uncle of Khan Tokhtamysh = Dmitry Donskoy ..

        Uff ... Well, I don’t know what to say.

        C'mon))) The man just did not have time to exhale)))) Above the same Superrus-Aryan, he recognized the Tatars and Nogais, and even the Chukchi, and most importantly - the Battle of Kulikovo ...! And this representative, probably the hyperborean, has disowned ...
  16. Karen
    Karen 23 September 2017 17: 59
    +1
    Quote: Operator

    The stub of the former Mongol empire, actually Mongolia, still exists, but is located between the hammer (China) and the anvil (Russia).

    Not quite so ... Genghis Khan's descendant Nursultan Nazarbayev in every possible way takes care of the state of his grandfather, and helps, including - and the people. And if you add to this the violent activity of the Yankees (to discourage the Chinese and Russians), then they have no reason to worry.
    1. Operator
      Operator 23 September 2017 18: 46
      0
      In the 2000's, for several years I was the representative of the Russian Federation as part of a joint Russian-Mongolian enterprise. The Mongols explicitly stated that the attempt by the Mongol government to equidistant from Russia and China in the 1990s was a huge mistake, followed by China’s creeping annexation of Mongolia’s economy.

      Therefore, for 20 years, the Mongols again sharply became friends with Russia as the sole guarantor of their sovereignty.

      Mongolia has no access to the sea, its only neighbors are China and Russia. No foreign power can help Mongolia if it pursues anti-Russian and / or anti-Chinese policies.
  17. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 23 September 2017 18: 03
    +1
    I read the version of Konstantin Kolontaev (Sevastopol historian) that the Genoese colonies in Crimea appeared after all the Genoese infantry were killed in the mummy campaign, so Mamaia had to pay off the territory of Crimea with Genoa. And regarding the number of troops: on the 600-anniversary of the battle (1980 g) there was a lot of material on this subject, the maximum number was estimated at 5-8 thousand on each side. The argument was that it was impossible to control a large number of troops with the help of messengers and without control of execution in the form of, at least, telescopes. The maximum number of controlled troops on the battlefield was achieved only in the era of the Napoleonic Wars, (60-70 thousand on each side). Spyglasses, thanks to Galileo, were already there.
    1. Cartalon
      Cartalon 23 September 2017 19: 01
      +1
      Wow, now I understand why the armies were divided into all sorts: divisions, tumens and legions, now, probably, this disgrace can be abandoned.
  18. ver_
    ver_ 24 September 2017 01: 51
    +1
    Quote: mordvin xnumx
    Quote: ver_
    Tatars as a nationality appeared the same in 1920 by the decision of the CEC -

    But Ivan the Terrible who fought with?
    Quote: ver_
    Tatar = Khazarin = Hozak = Cossack - equestrian warrior.

    With the Cossacks, it turns out.
    Quote: ver_
    Mogul is one of the names of Russia in antiquity

    We are not very identical.
    Quote: ver_
    Khan Mamai - uncle of Khan Tokhtamysh = Dmitry Donskoy ..

    Uff ... Well, I don’t know what to say.

    .. Different peoples at different times called Russia in different ways: Ruthenia is a country of military people, Mogul is a great country, Scythia, the Country of Huns, the Country of the Gardariks, Tartar .... Barbaras .. Putin said that the right of succession was poorly spelled out, which entailed civil strife, including the Battle of Kulikovo ...
    The first campaign of the Huns in Europe - the campaign of the brothers Ivan Kalita = Yaroslav Vsevolodovich = Khan Batu and George Vsevolodovich = Caesar Khan (first-born eldest son) = Genghis Khan and the founding of Rome ... The reason is the planting of another faith - Jewish Christianity ..
    1. Velizariy
      Velizariy 2 October 2017 10: 28
      0
      Quote: ver_
      Scythia, Country of Huns

      And the fact that they existed at the same time is nothing, and the fact that the Huns did not have a country, this nomadic people?
      Quote: ver_
      Genghis Khan and the foundation of Rome ... The reason is the planting of another's faith - Jewish Christianity ..

      Rome fought Christianity for 300 years, and before that it simply destroyed the Jewish state, after which, in fact, it was only re-formed in 1947 ... What a long, long time before Ivan Kalita, who actually was born 1000 years after the last the campaign of the Huns in Europe, wrote one historian ... the work is excellent, called "... - here is hated by all, without exception, the Aryans, the word ... of antiquity.
  19. Maki Avellevich
    Maki Avellevich 24 September 2017 06: 31
    0
    on the other hand, the point of view is expressed that at that time both Mamai and the Russian princes could not have gathered more than 5-6 thousand people.


    I can’t believe it.
  20. Bakht
    Bakht 25 September 2017 01: 55
    0
    The article is good and there are a lot of comments.
    The Battle of Kulikovo laid the BEGINNING of the creation of the Russian state. But completely Russia became independent after 100 years. In 1480, under Ivan III after "standing on the Ugra"
    The origin of the Glinsky is also interesting. This is an old story and quite interesting. But the fact is that Uroshchich Clay was granted to a descendant of Mamaia and subsequently Elena Glinskaya became the second wife of Vasily III. And the mother of Ivan IV. The same Vasilyevich and Grozny.
    As V. Vysotsky wrote
    "Russian, I am on the passport.
    Only Russian in the family,
    My great-grandfather - Samarin, -
    If anyone came to me,
    So that one is Tatar "
  21. ver_
    ver_ 25 September 2017 09: 37
    0
    Quote: Ken71
    Dmitry, as a representative of the Golden Horde, punished the usurper Mamaia.

    ... yes, hell knows her: .. in those days, the throne was transferred from brother to brother .. After George, the Throne * went * to Yaroslav ... And how was things going on in the future? Nevsky had no children. And his brother Andrei Nevsky executed for treason on the orders of 0ts - Yaroslav ... There was a branch of Ivan the Red - the third son of Yaroslav .. Khan Mamai = Velyaminov ... Khan Tokhtamysh - Dmitry Donskoy ... Which of them is not up to us to decide. History made its choice .. You can’t throw the words out of the song .. And the Mongol invasion is a fake .. For what the Jews did it - I already wrote ... Lenin = Blank gave Finland freedom. Gave the coast of the Caspian Sea to Iran (the Caspian Sea was the inland sea of ​​Russia), created Ukraine .. and made national entities ..- this for the collapse of the Slavic state ...
    1. Luga
      Luga 25 September 2017 15: 19
      +2
      Quote: ver_
      There is a branch of Ivan the Red - the third son of Yaroslav .. Khan Mamai = Velyaminov ... Khan Tokhtamysh - Dmitry Donskoy ... Which of them is not for us to decide.

      Give someone a medicine already! Tormented by the same!
  22. ver_
    ver_ 25 September 2017 12: 41
    0
    Quote: Vasily50
    An example of how church writings become sort of historical evidence. God forbid allah Buddha to doubt. The feelings of the believer at once will be offended. You can also go to court or how to express your insult.
    Neither Peresvet nor Oslyaby could not be monks. Even the names talk about it. Dmitry Donskoy did not receive blessings from the church and from Radonezh, because of the * priest Mitya * whom the churchmen poisoned. DMITRY DONSKY transferred the command of hell to his friend to the army precisely because of the anathema of the church. In the front regiment, Dmitry Donskoy was just a warrior.
    The RUSSIAN people WITHOUT a church completed the MILITARY ACTION.
    The Church, as always tries to attribute another's feat to itself, at the same time shifting its own villainy to others.

    ... for the first time in history, Dmitry Donskoy used wooden guns on a sandpit - the development of them, and the gunpowder belongs to the Church .. This means that Sergius of Radonezh and the Church chose Donskoy ... The Chinese did not invent gunpowder .. they conscientiously wrote it to themselves when they falsified its history in the 17th century ... The roar of guns brought confusion into the army of Khan Mamai ...
  23. ver_
    ver_ 26 September 2017 04: 54
    0
    Quote: Luga
    Quote: ver_
    There is a branch of Ivan the Red - the third son of Yaroslav .. Khan Mamai = Velyaminov ... Khan Tokhtamysh - Dmitry Donskoy ... Which of them is not for us to decide.

    Give someone a medicine already! Tormented by the same!

    ... Ukrainians have learned ..
    1. Velizariy
      Velizariy 2 October 2017 10: 30
      0
      Quote: ver_
      ... Ukrainians have learned ..

      Avoid taking medicine?
  24. ver_
    ver_ 2 October 2017 11: 02
    0
    Quote: Velizariy
    Quote: ver_
    ... Ukrainians have learned ..

    Avoid taking medicine?

    ... inadequacy and lack of analytical thinking ..
  25. ver_
    ver_ 2 October 2017 11: 22
    0
    Quote: Velizariy
    Quote: ver_
    Scythia, Country of Huns

    And the fact that they existed at the same time is nothing, and the fact that the Huns did not have a country, this nomadic people?
    Quote: ver_
    Genghis Khan and the foundation of Rome ... The reason is the planting of another's faith - Jewish Christianity ..

    Rome fought Christianity for 300 years, and before that it simply destroyed the Jewish state, after which, in fact, it was only re-formed in 1947 ... What a long, long time before Ivan Kalita, who actually was born 1000 years after the last the campaign of the Huns in Europe, wrote one historian ... the work is excellent, called "... - here is hated by all, without exception, the Aryans, the word ... of antiquity.

    ... Jesus Christ =
    Quote: Molot1979
    Khans supported any church. Jae is not Christian. This has been the case since the time of Genghis-henna, who knew something about the administration and did not consider it necessary to dragon his subjects once again. Therefore, in Central Asia, in China, in Russia, the Mongols first of all established fruitful cooperation with the local clergy. It is neither bad nor good, it was just that. But the clergy and had no other choice.

    ... for the gifted - well, there were no Mongols in either the 13th or 14th century from the word in general ... The year Mongolia was founded in 1920 .., and the fake about their invasion was written no earlier than 1920 .. this and the goat fershtein. .
  26. ver_
    ver_ 2 October 2017 13: 06
    0
    Quote: Velizariy
    Quote: ver_
    ... Ukrainians have learned ..

    Avoid taking medicine?

    ... no be obstinate by yourself do not spoil ..
  27. ver_
    ver_ 3 October 2017 01: 40
    0
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    Moreover, many Mongols professed Nestorian Christianity.

    ... for the gifted - Mongolia was founded in 1920 - you have all the brahms beguiled ... Only in 1920 did the Mongols appear ..
  28. ver_
    ver_ 3 October 2017 07: 06
    0
    Quote: voyaka uh
    "And Ivan the Terrible who fought with?" ////

    With the decision of the Central Executive Committee of 1920. The king disagreed with this decision! am
    And Genghis Khan was invented by Jews who smoked rubbish in Smolny in 1917 belay .

    You will never get bored with Fomenkovites. Why I love them! laughing

    ... Ivan the Terrible fought with the Bulgarian kingdom ..