We are again threatened with withdrawal from the INF Treaty

65
Something is happening. At least in Russian-American relations. More and more often I get the same question from readers. A question that has been discussed many times. Will the Americans withdraw from the Medium and Small Range Missile Treaty? Why are we silent about this event, although the US budget has already laid this way out?

We are again threatened with withdrawal from the INF Treaty




Alas, but readers are right. Indeed, on September 19, the United States Senate approved amendments to the US military budget, which officially fixed the possibility of the United States withdrawing from this treaty. We are, as usual, accused of all sins. We "hid" missiles, today we are developing short-range and medium-range ground-based missiles, we are experiencing such missiles ... In short, Russia always lies! Russia is always preparing wiles to the Western world. Russia is a paranoid who sleeps and sees how to attack the peaceful States and the West.

I read these amendments carefully enough. For the United States is quite common. Washington has allocated an additional 50 million dollars to the Pentagon. But on the condition that within 15 months US intelligence will confirm the presence of banned missiles at Russia. And then, only when providing intelligence to the US president, Trump can go to Congress with this issue. Congress will decide to withdraw from the contract and automatically allocate 50 million dollars to develop systems to counter the Russian threat! ..

It is clear that such money does not roll on the street. Yes, and I can provide intelligence to the Americans today. Under a big secret. That, I think, US intelligence officers are preparing for Trump only a year later. So, the Russians have medium-range and short-range missiles! .. And brazenly do not even hide their presence. Moreover, they apply them in ... Syria. Called ... "Caliber"!

I think some readers now have a “phase shift”. I told something unknown to you? Nothing! A contract about what? A missile with a range of shooting from 500 km to 5500 kilometers. Are "Calibers" in this framework? Come in! And now for future intelligence. Do boats put on repairs? Put. Are launchers removed? Take off! So, launchers are on the coast! Here you have a breach of contract! As it is now fashionable to write, check and checkmate Russian! I will say more, Americans also repair their boats and frigates ... With Tomahawks ...

If we throw away the irony, it turns out that both Russia and the United States really have the right to blame each other for failure to fulfill the contract. And the most incomprehensible, at first glance, they had before! The treaty on land-based missiles, and everything that is “afloat”, does not fall under the scope of these agreements! .. Why didn’t there have been any talk of withdrawing from the treaty? After all, the contract is valid with 1987 year.

In my opinion, the problem has been raised so acutely today for two reasons. Recall when the first time talking about a breach of contract? Do not believe it, but in the 2013 year! Not loud, but quite distinct. Talked and calmed down. And here again ...

So, the first reason, in my opinion, is a change in the situation in this area in other countries. First of all, in China and Iran. These countries did not sign the treaty, but they create missiles of these classes successfully. At least, when testing, the indicators are quite impressive (according to objective intelligence). And this means that the contract is valid for the United States today is no longer relevant. It is necessary to leave the previous one and try to conclude a new contract. But already with the participation of a larger number of countries.

Another reason is traditional. The Americans are confident that if they use short- and medium-range missiles from their bases in Europe, Russia will respond in exactly the same way. Simply put, Russian missiles will destroy and kill in Europe. US territory will be out of reach. The main "bzik" of Americans is this. War will be everywhere, but not on American territory.

And why? Destroyed by medium-range missiles, the Russian city is not worth the American, destroyed by long-range ballistic missiles? It is clear to everyone that after the first launch, all contracts will fly to pieces. In war as in war.

Recently, I spoke with a fairly well-informed gentleman from Germany. The man is really knowledgeable and quite sane. So, in his opinion, today the task of the Americans regarding the withdrawal from this treaty is already obvious. It is necessary to make Russia the first to leave the treaty. And then it will be Russia that will be declared the aggressor. Then the European governments will have at least some explanation for their own citizens. Explaining the deployment of new American missiles ...

Moreover, we have several times talked about the famous launchers MK-41. Those that are already deployed in Romania. Let me remind you that these installations are used to launch exactly Tomahawk attack missiles. After Russia is accused of breaking the treaty, such installations will be located throughout Europe. Beautiful course of the Americans!

Today, the world media outlets are analyzing in some detail the speech of President Trump at the UN General Assembly. And most analysts agree that Trump has proclaimed a new strategy for US foreign policy. Remember how, after beautiful words about democracy and the right of peoples to independence and freedom, Trump threatened the DPRK with destruction ... How to understand this?

Yes, nothing complicated in understanding. The whole pack must be quite democratic and independently “barking” at the command of the “master”. And those who want to "bark" on their own initiative, waiting for "sleep." That’s all. America wants to intimidate the world! Maybe I am mistaken, but it was this feeling that caused the performance of the American president. He no longer speaks of cooperation, of the allies as equal partners. He speaks about his “serfs” ... Trump put the world before the fact of open threat of the use of military force!

Naturally, the question arises about our reaction. Shut up? To pretend that we do not understand where the US president is headed? And what's the point? Everyone understands that today we, Russia, although the main, but not the only opponent of the overseas "hegemon." And our demarche will be regarded no more as a sign of weakness. If you want, cowardice.

Tear the vest on the chest and start to threaten in response? And what will it give? Except, of course, additional "points" for all Baltic presidents and Polish ministers from defense ... We perfectly see what threats turn into if they remain threats. Only the weak-minded did not laugh at the Americans with menacing aircraft carriers who flew away from Ena ...

Expand own missiles in the European part of Russia? Again the meaning? We will play on the side of the Americans! I wrote above that the main task of the United States is precisely to unleash a war outside its territory. And medium-range missiles, not to mention small, will not reach the United States under the most favorable conditions ...

I think that the only move remains that will not only “save the face” of Russia, but also set aside the formidable “showman”. We simply must today clearly state to the Americans that we will regard the withdrawal from the treaty and the deployment of American missiles in Europe as a real military threat to Russia. With all the ensuing consequences, up to a preventive strike on the territory of the enemy.

Moreover, it is necessary to directly warn European governments, and maybe EU citizens, about the danger of deploying American missiles on their territory. Again, recall the opportunity to strike first ...

To be honest, I don’t really believe that the Americans will nevertheless break the INF Treaty. Too risky. But the fact that the speculation on this will be, I am sure. Therefore, I consider that it is necessary to work in the above areas already today. Or yesterday ... Somehow tired of looking at an idiot who swings the whole world with his extravagance.

By the way, only now, after the cadres of the visit to our president of military exercises "West 2017", I understood why Putin ignored the UNGA. The best answer to Trump on his "philosophical" speech has already been given. Without words, but understandable enough.
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  1. +1
    21 September 2017 06: 57
    Somehow I'm tired of looking at an idiot who is "rocking" the whole world with his "extravagance."


    Yes, unfortunately the world is more and more plunged into the abyss of unpredictability due to US actions around the world. what ... it’s bad when there is no second pole of power ... an imbalance ... you understand everyone is shaking with a tremor of war.
    1. +5
      21 September 2017 07: 25
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      Yes, unfortunately the world is more and more plunged into the abyss of unpredictability due to US actions around the world.

      tell it to the old senile black man M. Freeman ... wassat
    2. +2
      21 September 2017 07: 51
      There is not a pole of strength needed, here American insanity must be treated ....
      Debt is growing, financial institutions are shaking the same, the world economy is stagnating, and as they say only war (in our case, global) will write off all the costs ....
      That's just the Americans want away from themselves and preferably without nuclear ...
      1. +2
        21 September 2017 08: 31
        Insanity is treated only by digging into the grave ..
        Quote: jonht
        There is not a pole of strength needed, here American insanity must be treated ....
        Debt is growing, financial institutions are shaking the same, the world economy is stagnating, and as they say only war (in our case, global) will write off all the costs ....
        That's just the Americans want away from themselves and preferably without nuclear ...
    3. 0
      21 September 2017 09: 06
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      ... it’s bad when there is no second pole of power ... an imbalance ... you understand everyone is shaking with a tremor of war.

      ... firstly, this is not so!
      There is a new pole - the Chinese with the Russians!

      About -
      Quote: Author: Alexander Staver
      Another reason is traditional. The Americans are confident that if they use short- and medium-range missiles from their bases in Europe, Russia will respond in exactly the same way.

      ... then they were mistaken in 70xx, they are mistaken, too ...
      Many veterans of the Strategic Missile Forces remember - "a strike at the appointed time" X ", and with all the might and all potential" friends ".

      Quote: Author: Alexander Staver
      We are simply obliged today to clearly state to the Americans that the withdrawal from the treaty and the deployment of American missiles in Europe will be regarded by us as a real military threat to Russia. With all the ensuing consequences, up to a preemptive strike on enemy territory.
      Moreover, it is necessary to directly warn European governments, and maybe EU citizens, about the danger of deploying American missiles on their territory. Again, recall the opportunity to strike first ...

      everything is the same for the geyropopets, they are not sovereign and for a long time, the boss said - you need to repeat it. And what will happen to their country does not touch them.
      Auli - the majority of European leaders are childless, what are you worried about?

      PS: I recently visited an Italian from Sicily with his wife, a Russian beauty.
      They talk about their "horrors": refugee migrants descended (squeezed out from the mainland). They do not work, they receive benefits as working locals. In addition, they expropriate the "extra living space" of the locals (Hi, "new Russians" with villas in Italy and other southern countries!) ...
      I say - "What about the Italian partisans?" He answered - "We are already going to ... We would have your leader, instead of our corrupt ones ..."
    4. +1
      21 September 2017 10: 24
      everything returns to normal ... a little more, and medium-range ballistic missiles will again appear in Cuba ...
      something is not at all interesting
  2. +4
    21 September 2017 07: 28
    Well, yes, well, yes, like that of the traffic police, you can cling to a pillar too ... But is it worth it to worry so, because the answer from the Kremlin has long been prepared, the moves of the amers are provided ... Everyone knows that only for their own benefit the Americans doing something, to the detriment of the contracting party ...
  3. 0
    21 September 2017 07: 52
    It should be answered symmetrically by deploying our missiles in Cuba and Kamchatka if the United States decides to deploy its missiles at the borders of Russia. If the deployment of missiles in Cuba is impossible, then I would not rule out our preemptive strike on the position areas of US missiles in Europe.
    1. 0
      21 September 2017 08: 53
      Dear late, more than enough missiles in Kamchatka, a whole division of underwater missile carriers .... wassat
    2. 0
      21 September 2017 09: 11
      Quote: Krasnyiy komissar
      having placed our missiles in Cuba and

      You didn’t see Putin’s speeches well. Russia, according to the president, is in favor of keeping nuclear arsenals at home
      1. 0
        21 September 2017 11: 39
        Russia can advocate for anything, but the "partners" will still act in their own way. Hit on the right cheek - substitute the left, but this is not our method. In our opinion - it is immediately to give in the jaw to the opponent then sral teeth.
    3. 0
      21 September 2017 09: 14
      Quote: Krasnyiy komissar
      It should be answered symmetrically

      ... inna?
      It will be different - "orbiters", 2-3x a multiple increase in the number of carriers, with the "old" number of strategic nuclear warheads (1500pcs), an unchanged number of nuclear weapons, container carriers of aka Club ...
      Well, "Boundary" in unlimited quantities outside the standings in the SNA.
      1. +1
        21 September 2017 13: 12
        What will you eat?
        1. 0
          22 September 2017 10: 46
          Quote: Sharansky
          What will you eat?


          It would seem noble that the probable descendant of the Khazars is worried about the descendants of past countrymen ...;))))))))))))))))))))
          However your the rise jokes here are inappropriate.
          For, no one will reproduce the military power of the USSR. It’s just that everything will take its course: 3,14ndos - build up missile defense,
          we are at the same pace as for the time being, to put into operation new nuclear warhead carriers, removing the old ones with a delay.
          Yankees - go broke first because the volume of uncertainty and needs (finances, resources) they will grow in a cubic dependence. At us - all technologies are known and worked out even under the Union ...
  4. +1
    21 September 2017 07: 58
    A long time ago America would have been declared an aggressor by the country and acted accordingly. Evidence of this in two encyclopedias.
  5. +2
    21 September 2017 08: 14
    Actually, it looks a lot like diverting attention from real threats. The Americans have a space drone X-37, which for years can wind circles in low orbit (about 200-300km). Its cargo compartment allows you to load a small missile with a nuclear warhead. And now the rhetorical question - what is the flying time to Moscow (or any other point in Russia, where the country's leadership is currently located) from such an orbit? I think that there are no more minutes 5-6. And if such X-37 will spin 20-30 pieces?
    1. +3
      21 September 2017 09: 14
      crying Wow ... We completely forgot about it. Only now we read periodically about launches of rockets from Plesetsk. With one interesting entry in the message: - "the launch was carried out in the interests of the Russian Defense Ministry" ... what would it be? ... feel
    2. +1
      21 September 2017 09: 23
      Quote: Siberian
      And now the rhetorical question - what is the flying time to Moscow (or any other point in Russia, where the country's leadership is currently located) from such an orbit? I think that there are no more minutes 5-6. And if such X-37 will spin 20-30 pieces?

      ... this is called the "launch of weapons into space" with the withdrawal from the Treaty on the non-militarization of space, with all that it implies!
      1. 0
        22 September 2017 03: 10
        When did the treaties stop me from suddenly attacking? Until the moment of the attack, no one will know that the weapon is placed there.
    3. 0
      21 September 2017 20: 35
      And that this could not be an ordinary satellite in the USSR, they wanted to launch orbital charges so that they would constantly fly in space and in cases of which give friends gifts
      Do not need expensive x-32 here
      1. 0
        22 September 2017 03: 16
        X-37 is more flexible in application - launched, bombed, landed on an airplane. In addition, he has the ability to maneuver in orbit. The satellites have problems with this, and their goals are highly predictable.
        1. 0
          22 September 2017 10: 29
          Quote: Siberian
          In addition, he has the ability to maneuver in orbit.

          ... Avot from this moment in more detail please ... :)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

          Maneuver with what? "Farting steam"? :)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
          For a year, how many db fuel stock?
          And if there is fuel, then any satellite can perform any maneuvers !!
        2. 0
          23 September 2017 22: 48
          And where will it land (if it survives) by plane?
  6. +2
    21 September 2017 08: 31
    Quote: Krasnyiy komissar
    It should be answered symmetrically by deploying our missiles in Cuba and Kamchatka if the United States decides to deploy its missiles at the borders of Russia. If the deployment of missiles in Cuba is impossible, then I would not rule out our preemptive strike on the position areas of US missiles in Europe.

    The idle talk about the withdrawal of the Americans from the treaty has been going on for several years, but no matter how a decade. Calculation - a check for "lice" and a banal "game on the nerves." Sorry, but the information war has not been canceled and does not cancel. She remained as she was. Each of the parties accuses the other of violating either the "letter" or the "spirit" of the contract. And both sides do not bother to present evidence. This is a game most often for the media, a game based on the ignorance of ordinary people, on which such passages are designed.

    But here is your proposal, dear - from a series of provocations with the aim of starting a war. A preemptive strike on the goals of the other side is the very incident of Bellie. But Russia does not need a war. Like other sane opponents. For here the words of Albert Einstein, which he said, answering the question of what will be used in the Third World, are more suitable than ever
    He said that what will happen in the Third - he does not know. and in the Fourth, bow and arrow.

    The deployment of missiles in Cuba is impossible due to the fact that Cuba is now not the same as it was in the early 60s, when there was still euphoria from the victory of the Revolution. And Russia is no longer the USSR. It is unlikely that Russia will now be able to protect Cuba. And after all, the agreement with the Americans has not been canceled. And it was next
    1. We withdraw our missiles from Cuba
    2. Americans guarantee non-aggression in Cuba
    These agreements have been in force for 55 years. Violation of them by one of the parties will lead to the fact that the second will also be free from obligations

    It is unclear why the author introduced the passage about “Caliber” - “Tomahawks”. It seems that it has already been said a million times that the treaty concerns only ground-based missiles and sea-launched missiles, as well as air-related ones. But the author probably knows better.
    1. 0
      21 September 2017 09: 17
      Quote: Old26
      to which the author introduced a passage about "Calibras" - "Tomahawks"

      A contract about what? A missile with a range of shooting from 500 km to 5500 kilometers. Are "Calibers" in this framework? Come in! And now for future intelligence. Do boats put on repairs? Put. Are launchers removed? Take off! So, launchers are on the coast! Here you have a breach of contract! As it is now fashionable to write, check and checkmate Russian! I will say more, Americans also repair their boats and frigates ... With Tomahawks ...
    2. 0
      21 September 2017 11: 42
      If the Americans begin to deploy rockets near the borders of Russia, then we need to act symmetrically or strike first. They want to fight with us - let there be a war!
      1. 0
        21 September 2017 13: 16
        but didn’t you try to live in peace?
        1. 0
          23 September 2017 07: 46
          Respected! Do you have to talk about it. As you know, the peace of Israel is based on constant readiness, delivering a preemptive strike, in order to prevent aggression against yourself beloved.
  7. 0
    21 September 2017 09: 35
    The article in the "general and general - +". But some questions, to the respected Alexander, still remain! How for example IT understand:
    - ".... We can clearly see what threats turn into if they remain threats ...." and further:
    - "... We are simply obliged today to clearly state to the Americans that the withdrawal from the treaty and the deployment of American missiles in Europe will be regarded by us as a real military threat to Russia. With all the ensuing consequences, up to a preemptive strike on enemy territory, AND THIS IS AS regard ??????
  8. +1
    21 September 2017 09: 37
    Quote: domokl
    Quote: Old26
    to which the author introduced a passage about "Calibras" - "Tomahawks"

    A contract about what? A missile with a range of shooting from 500 km to 5500 kilometers. Are "Calibers" in this framework? Come in! And now for future intelligence. Do boats put on repairs? Put. Are launchers removed? Take off! So, launchers are on the coast! Here you have a breach of contract! As it is now fashionable to write, check and checkmate Russian! I will say more, Americans also repair their boats and frigates ... With Tomahawks ...

    I repeat. The contract concerned exclusively LAND BASIS Rocket. Neither sea (their “Tomahawks” and our “Pomegranates”), nor air (their AGM-86 and our X-55) were limited to this agreement. Do not repeat the author’s stupidity
    And not worth it, dear, your nonsense about launchers on repair ships pass off as the ultimate truth. In addition, I repeat once again ESPECIALLY FOR YOU. Sea-based cruise missiles are not among the systems that were prohibited by the treaty.
  9. +1
    21 September 2017 09: 42
    It is necessary to clearly state in the new treaty that at the start of any medium-range missile from Europe a proportional response will fly to the states ...
  10. 0
    21 September 2017 09: 57
    Quote: cormorant
    It is necessary to clearly state in the new treaty that at the start of any medium-range missile from Europe a proportional response will fly to the states ...

    Such things are not prescribed in contracts. For an agreement is an agreement between countries on the observance of certain positions. And not the threat of total annihilation. Moreover, we have no right to prohibit the launch of a medium-range missile from Europe if the notification of launch has passed according to the procedure. France, too, can test such medium-range missiles (if it wants to have them) and according to the procedure will notify Russia and other countries of the launch time, and through the NOTAM system it will give a notification that some sections of the sea and airspace will be closed with xx by xx of such and such a number.
    Moreover, with a 100% guarantee there is a so-called. A “hot line” between the United States and Russia, there is probably something similar between other countries that are within reach. Such a system is needed in case of an unauthorized start.
    1. 0
      21 September 2017 11: 06
      It is true that a hotline exists. Surely exists. But short- and medium-range missiles have a short flying time. At one time, I argued with amers for a long time about the message in small print. The fact is that the Tomahawks are equipped with both conventional and nuclear warheads. And when launching a rocket, say from the Black Sea or from Romania, no one will know which warhead is installed. And the time of flight from Estonia to St. Petersburg is unlikely to be very long. Even for subsonic Tomahawks.
      The "hot line" just does not have time to work. Flight time should be significantly longer than 5-10 minutes. Preferably half an hour.
      There will be at least a chance to say "Sorry." And have time to send the same Iskanders on a one-way flight.
  11. +1
    21 September 2017 11: 00
    The article is good.
    It is clearly stated why it is impossible to withdraw from the INF Treaty. But there is a nuance. The contract clearly states that any party may unilaterally withdraw from it by simple notification for 6 months.
    The second nuance. The author does not take into account the specifics of the appearance of the Treaty. Then, million-strong rallies swept across Europe against the deployment of the Pershing. Any European (except for the Balts and Poles with Romanians) understands that withdrawing from the Treaty makes their cities a target for nuclear attacks. In this, the author is right. Americans will not violate the Treaty.
    The mention of the Caliber by the Americans is no coincidence. And there's nothing to be done. The fact is that the declared range of the Caliber was significantly lower. The real range was found after launches from the Caspian. And who knows, is this really a real radius of action or are there any more surprises? So the Americans claim that the Iskanders fly much further than the declared 480 km. But this will become known after real combat launches. Let intelligence work.
    But the fact that the Americans violate the agreement by installing the Tomahawks on land is a fact.
    So there will be many more stinks and conversations. The reality is this: Amers do not need anti-war rallies in Europe, and Russia does not need Tomahawks and Pershing on land. Everyone is waiting for the first to blink.
    1. 0
      21 September 2017 13: 19
      Quote: Bakht
      But the fact that the Americans violate the agreement by installing the Tomahawks on land is a fact.

      But this is news. Could you tell me in more detail where they did this? And it doesn’t google in any way.
      1. 0
        21 September 2017 13: 43
        Russia has repeatedly pointed out that the Mk.41 universal vertical launch launchers used in Aegis Ashore can technically be used not only for missile defense, but (as happens in the Navy) for launching Tomahawk long-range cruise missiles.

        https://lenta.ru/news/2016/05/12/romania_bmd/
        1. 0
          21 September 2017 13: 46
          So it turns out they still did not install the Tomahawks on land. Why are you lying?
          1. +1
            21 September 2017 13: 49
            What do you mean lying? MK 41 installations are already installed. Did they tell you that the Tomahawks are not there? These systems have already been deployed in Romania and should be in Poland. And they are designed to launch Tomahawk missiles
            1. +1
              21 September 2017 13: 52
              Systems designed to launch SM-3 missiles. By your own link. The presence of Tomahawks is not mentioned anywhere. Only speculation is unknown to anyone.
              1. 0
                21 September 2017 13: 57
                From Shoigu and Gerasimov.
                Moscow Conference on International Security
                During it, the Deputy Chief of the Main Operations Directorate of the General Staff of the RF Armed Forces, Lieutenant General Viktor Poznihir, in his report spoke about a more serious threat than terrorism to Russia.
                The threat to Russia is represented by the shock potential of missile defense groups. Launchers Mark 41 Vertical Launching System (MK41) are universal, this makes it possible to place Tomahawk cruise missiles (CR) in them, instead of anti-missiles, whose firing range reaches 2,6 thousand km. Thus, only on ships equipped with missile launchers Mk41, you can install more than 1000 KR Tomahawk. The same applies to land-based missile defense launchers, in Eastern Europe they are located in Romania and Poland. And in this case, the replacement of anti-ballistic missiles with the Tomahawk missile defense system can be carried out secretly and in the shortest possible time, and as a result, objects throughout the European territory of Russia are at risk of impact.
                1. +1
                  21 September 2017 13: 59
                  Poke your finger where it says that Tomahawks Established in Eastern Europe, instead of the SM-3 missile defense. I can be completely blind. Or rather, you see what is not.
                  Quote Shoigu for example.
                  1. +1
                    21 September 2017 14: 03
                    Yesterday I read an article here on June 22, 1941. Intelligence report that "there are no German tank formations on the border." Wait.
                    But the "speculation is unknown to anyone," as you put it.
                    Russian Defense Minister spoke last year
                    Shoigu: US may host Tomahawks in Romania ...
                    Source: https://rueconomics.ru/182077-shoigu-ssha-mogut-r
                    azmestit-tomagavki-v-rumynii # from_copy
                    For some reason he is worried. You are not. Well, it's weird. Wait for the official confirmation of the Pentagon.
                    1. 0
                      21 September 2017 14: 04
                      Quote: Bakht
                      Shoigu: USA can place the Tomahawks in Romania ...

                      Russian is not your native language or you do not understand the difference between can and posted?
                      1. 0
                        21 September 2017 14: 07
                        It says Shoigu convinced". Do you know Russian well? Word convinced does it have any other meaning?
                    2. 0
                      21 September 2017 14: 14
                      Quote: Bakht
                      Americans violate the agreement by installing the Tomahawks on land - this is a fact.

                      Quote: Bakht
                      It says "Shoigu convinced." USA can place the Tomahawks in Romania ...

                      Shoigu convinced that they can post, and you claim that this is a fait accompli. So what is the meaning of the word convinced? Or do you know more than the Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation?
                      So share it. Maybe even give some sensations. And then I am lazy to read the yellow press.
                      1. +1
                        21 September 2017 14: 26
                        Do not read. Are you convinced that the Tomahawks are not there. I am convinced that they are there. Intelligence will not report anything to us. Putin, Shoigu, Gerasimov and a bunch of other people who know the topic, writes and says that these installations are for the Tomahawks.
                        I'm not going to select information here. Google the non-yellow press. In January 2017, a bill on the supply of Tomahawks to allies in Eastern Europe was submitted to the US Senate. The bill has not yet been approved. In July 2017, another Bill "On countering the Russian missile threat" was introduced. Under consideration. It is planned to allocate 4,3 billion dollars for the transfer of Tomahawk missiles to Eastern Europe. In the Pentagon's budget for 2018, it is planned to allocate $ 100 million for the additional production of Tomahawk missiles. The deadline for the ultimatum of Russia is January 1, 2019. If by this time the Iskanders were not withdrawn from Kaliningrad and the Crimea, then the ABM systems in Romania and Poland would be equipped with Tomahawks.
                        Literally, I wrote, "Americans are breaking the treaty by setting the Tomahawks on land - that's a fact." I remain in my opinion. And you can wait for official confirmation from the Pentagon. It's your right.
                        Formally, none of these bills has yet been approved. But they are. And if you take an interest in the history of the creation of these missile defense areas, then they are generally intended against Iran. We've been rubbing our glasses for five years.
                        So everything is calm in Baghdad. You can sleep well.
                    3. 0
                      21 September 2017 14: 28
                      Quote: Bakht
                      Are you convinced that the Tomahawks are not there. I am convincedwhat they are there.

                      Quote: Bakht
                      Americans violate the agreement by installing Tomahawks on land - it is a fact.

                      Do you have a split personality for an hour?
                      1. +1
                        21 September 2017 14: 36
                        No. You just believe the Americans, the Tomahawks are not there. I don’t believe them and say that they are there.
                        I do not work in the General Staff or Foreign Intelligence. Just practice shows that only a very, very naive person can believe Amers.
                        I can’t prove that the Tomahawks are installed there. Can you prove that Tomahawks are NOT there?
                        The MK 41 installations are universal and deliver the Tomahawks and establish a question of a very short time. But the agreement concerned not only missiles, but also delivery vehicles. So there is a violation of the Agreement.
                    4. 0
                      21 September 2017 14: 40
                      Quote: Bakht
                      You just believe the Americans, the Tomahawks are not there. I him I do not believe and I say that they are there.

                      Quote: Bakht
                      Americans violate the agreement by installing Tomahawks on land - it is a fact.

                      the fact is when something is known reliably. But so far, all your statements were at the level of I believe, I don’t believe. Faith and facts in the Russian language are far from synonyms.
                      So provide evidence of the presence of Tomahawks in Europe. Only then and in no other way will it be considered fact. Do not be an ordinary balabol.
                      1. 0
                        21 September 2017 14: 45
                        We have already discussed everything. You can consider me a "balabol".
              2. 0
                21 September 2017 15: 45
                Quote: Sharansky
                The systems are designed to launch SM-3 rockets.

                Sorry to interfere with your argument, but here you are wrong. Installation MK 41 is designed, including for shooting Tamagavkami. They don’t even need to change anything other than a container with missiles.
                1. 0
                  21 September 2017 15: 53
                  Quote: domokl
                  There’s no need to change anything there except for a container with missiles

                  and still need to deliver a control and guidance system to launch Tomahawk.
  12. 0
    21 September 2017 14: 07
    Another reason is traditional. The Americans are confident that if they use short- and medium-range missiles from their bases in Europe, Russia will respond in exactly the same way. Simply put, Russian missiles will destroy and kill in Europe. US territory will be out of reach. The main "bzik" of Americans is this. War will be everywhere, but not on American territory.

    Then a misfire can happen. After the economy of geyropi ceases to exist, what will happen to the "green paper". It cannot be invested in the restoration of the infected area. So the whole mass is breaking back.
    . And medium-range missiles, not to mention short-range missiles, will not reach the United States under the most favorable conditions ...
    And if you look at another part of the map. Flight time to Alaska is minimal. The vast territory of Alaska is scattered in the middle of mountainous terrain and glacial fields, thereby greatly complicating the construction of electric networks, and generally normal by today's standards energy infrastructure. Many areas of Alaska are energetically isolated, and in the event of a source of electricity failure, the areas are plunged into darkness. The same applies to gas pipelines; their construction is also greatly hampered by natural conditions.
    So, if you wish, you can burn Uncle Sam bearded.
    1. 0
      21 September 2017 14: 32
      Incorrect approach. If you burn Petersburg, then this is a disaster. And if you burn down the whole of Alaska, then Uncle Sam is neither hot nor cold from this.
      The second difficulty. In any case, even the most unfavorable for Russia, the Americans will never give up control of nuclear weapons to a third party. And formally, missile defense areas are under American control. So any launch from Romania or Poland means a global war against the United States. This is what Shoigu and Putin say. And Arbatov too. Flight time cannot be measured in tens of seconds. This is a direct path to war.
      1. 0
        21 September 2017 15: 04
        Quote: Bakht
        And if you burn down the whole of Alaska, then Uncle Sam is neither hot nor cold from this.

        Alaska's population is 736. for 732 About the cost of infrastructure, you can’t talk about it, there is a considerable amount of money.
        As for Peter, it’s nice to remember the 80s. Someone, such as "tagged cattle" and K, was shaking with fear from medium-range missiles, and someone was looking for solutions. Then it didn’t get beyond laboratory simulation. Apparently in our time this project will have to be completed. In one episode of Strike Force, this topic is touched upon in passing.
        1. 0
          21 September 2017 15: 12
          I worked in Alaska. Dutch Harbor and Anchorage. And plus the coast of the Beaufort Sea. There is infrastructure there, of course. And even the city. And oil pipelines. In monetary terms, a very, very good amount. But ... nothing vital to the functioning of the state.
  13. 0
    21 September 2017 15: 22
    After an interesting debate.
    Just for information. What is the difference between Russian and American? This is already at the level of genes and a stereotype of behavior.
    Americans respond to THREATS. So it is written in their instructions. Prevent a threat and respond to a hypothetical hazard. It may be dangerous. And a preemptive strike immediately.
    The Russians are reacting to the danger itself. They miss the threat, like a frivolous thing. Until the thunder strikes! And then with heroic efforts and innumerable victims.
    To the article itself. Americans are preparing for war and preparing infrastructure and weapons systems. Accusations of violation of the INF Treaty is very serious. Based on these allegations and possible threats, ready-made weapons will be deployed on finished systems. Those notorious Tomahawks.
    While the Russians will prove that the Iskanders fly 480 km, the Americans will set up Block4 and blackmail.
    Believe the man who worked for 20 years on American principles. My task has always been to anticipate the threat and eliminate it until something happened. As my boss said: we have a very easy job. Sit in a chair and watch. Nothing else. But for this "nothing" they paid a lot of money. This is their work style.
    Dixi
  14. 0
    21 September 2017 16: 56
    Quote: Krasnyiy komissar
    If the Americans begin to deploy rockets near the borders of Russia, then we need to act symmetrically or strike first. They want to fight with us - let there be a war!

    deployment is not war yet. In the 80s, the Americans were deployed by both Pershing and Griffon. However, no war ensued. And you have everything in two-color mode, black and white. Or war, or not. And the world is much more colorful and diverse.

    Quote: Bakht
    It is true that a hotline exists. Surely exists. But short- and medium-range missiles have a short flying time. At one time, I argued with amers for a long time about the message in small print. The fact is that the Tomahawks are equipped with both conventional and nuclear warheads. And when launching a rocket, say from the Black Sea or from Romania, no one will know which warhead is installed. And the time of flight from Estonia to St. Petersburg is unlikely to be very long. Even for subsonic Tomahawks.
    The "hot line" just does not have time to work. Flight time should be significantly longer than 5-10 minutes. Preferably half an hour.
    There will be at least a chance to say "Sorry." And have time to send the same Iskanders on a one-way flight.

    This is not about Romania or the Baltic states. launching cruise missiles from Romania is about an hour of flight. Place modern ballistic missiles in the launchers of the Mk-41 will not work. What the Americans now have, those developments in these starting elementary will not fit ..
    Yes, most likely the "hot line" when deploying a BR in the Baltic states will not play the role that the EU is intended. But the enemy should not be considered stupid. They are well aware that the deployment of missiles in Estonia, although they will give them advantages in terms of time of arrival, but any failure in the system will lead to disaster. And for them, and for us. Therefore, although it is extremely beneficial to deploy missiles in Estonia, they are unlikely to be deployed. Everyone has a sense of self-preservation

    Quote: Bakht
    The mention of the Caliber by the Americans is no coincidence. And there's nothing to be done. The fact is that the declared range of the Caliber was significantly lower. The real range was found after launches from the Caspian. And who knows, is this really a real range or are there any more surprises?

    There is such an expression: “he that has ears, let him hear”
    if our media excitedly talked about a 300 km radius and did not hear other voices, this is their problem. About TWO years before, the Commander-in-Chief of the Caspian Naval Flotilla, speaking of the launches of the Caliber, stated the following:
    1. An anti-ship missile hit a target at a range of 375 km
    2. a ship-to-ground missile hit a target at a range at a range in a thousand kilometers. At the same time, he said to a correspondent’s question that these missiles could cover targets both in the Persian Gulf zone and in the Middle East.

    But why should the media react to the statement of some admiral, the commander of not even a fleet. but a flotilla. They are with a mustache. As a result through TWO Years of launching at such a range turned out to be a sensation for the media. And all you had to do was just listen to what the experts say, not ANALmedia ethics

    Quote: Sharansky
    But this is news. Could you tell me in more detail where they did this? And it doesn’t google in any way

    But this simply does not exist. This is another informational stuffing, only from our side. They say that they can place it there, which means they have placed it. And do not even try to prove it. In the same way, they say that cruise missiles on the Iskander MAY exceed the declared 500 km in range. but here we proceed with saliva, proving that this is not so. And how is this case different from the American one? But nothing. Both that, and another UNKNOWABLE

    If our missiles in Iskander can really reach a range of 1500– 2500 km, prove it and it will be VIOLATION Russia agreement.
    If you can’t prove it and it’s only your blah blah - go to the forest. But in the same way, if we cannot prove that the missile launchers in Romania are not missile defense, but cruise missiles - the same principle applies to us - GO FOREST. Until proven, it's all your blah blah

    Quote: domokl
    Sorry to interfere with your argument, but here you are wrong. Installation MK 41 is designed, including for shooting Tamagavkami. They don’t even need to change anything other than a container with missiles.

    And it is intended for firing with the Harpoon anti-ship missiles. So what?
    1. 0
      21 September 2017 18: 11
      Quote: Old26
      And it is intended for firing with the Harpoon anti-ship missiles. So what?

      And then ... Where is the guarantee that the containers are not Tamagavki?
  15. +16
    21 September 2017 19: 09
    To be honest, I don’t really believe that the Americans will nevertheless agree to break the INF Treaty

    So exactly
  16. 0
    21 September 2017 21: 11
    Quote: domokl
    And then ... Where is the guarantee that the containers are not Tamagavki?

    Elementary logic. deploying cruise missiles with a range of 1600 km on the territory of Romania, and not on the border with Ukraine to take a closer look, but on the border with Bulgaria - well, it’s very clever. Even taking into account that the rocket will fly exclusively in a straight line, it will invade the territory of Russia to a depth of half a kilometer. Moreover, all major targets, such as missile bases, airfields, army and district headquarters will be OUT of reach. Well, the enemy should not be considered a complete idiot.
    What's in the launchers CAN to be deployed cruise missiles - does not mean that they DEPLOYED. Moreover, this base is under our close attention. Or do you think that 24 interceptors can be replaced with winged cruise missiles with a wave of the hand? Yes, so that the enemy did not notice anything?

    I repeat. We are with the Americans at the level of the media and bodies such as Congress / Duma butting for quite some time. Each time blaming the enemy for breaking something. then the "letters" of the contract, then the "spirit" of the contract.
    in particular, our accusations at the level of people exposed by the authorities, deputies and some military men are as follows

    1. The Americans in violation of the Treaty have created medium-range missiles.
    At the same time, sometimes forgetting to add that these are target missiles. And they were created as part of the articles of the treaty. That is, without violations. But the last thing they try not to say

    2. The Americans, in violation of the treaty, deployed cruise missile launchers in Europe. .
    Nowhere in the contract is the Mk-41 launcher mentioned. There is only a mention of missile launchers Griffonrockets Pershing-1B и Pershing 2 from the American side and missile launchers Temp-S, Oka, R-12, R-14 и RC-55 from our side. All launchers specified in the Agreement are destroyed. Yes, purely theoretical launcher Mk-41 can be used to launch other types of missiles - Asrok, Standard, Harpoon, Tomahawk and some other little things.
    But place ballistic missiles in them, which some of our "specialists" consider almost ready-made medium-range missiles no longer possible. Theoretically, only the Tomahawks. But these are only “opportunities”, not reality

    3. The Americans blame us. that we, in violation of the contract, created the Border Guard. Motivating this by the fact that she allegedly flew to a range of 2000 km, and this is the range of medium-range missiles. Accusation NOT ONLY due to the fact that during the tests it flew over 5600 km, and this, according to all documents, the range of an intercontinental missile. Their Trident also flew to a range of 2600 km, but this did not become a medium-range missile

    4. The Americans accuse us of creating a ground-based cruise missile with a range of more than 500 km. In particular, this is due to the fact that many of our deputies, a number of retirees and a huge number of Internet users are already talking about it choking. that cruise missile R-500 (9M728) It has a range of 2500 km and with this rocket we will cover the whole of Europe without leaving our borders. RAVE and most importantly UNPREDICTABLE. Nevertheless, it is voiced as what is POSSIBLY (approximately the same as the placement of Tomahawks in the Mk-41 launcher is possible. But as long as WILL NOT BE proved, this fact will not be a violation.

    5. The Americans accuse us of creating a ground-based cruise missile with a range of about 5000 km. They even give the index of this rocket - 9М729. At the urgent request of the Russian side to provide facts, telemetry, etc., proving that this is so, it should MAINTENANCE type "But we know that you know that you violated the contract by creating this rocket." At the same time, the American side does not bother to prove where at least this missile is deployed. That is, again, boltology

    These are only the most famous mutual reproaches expressed by both sides, and PROOF. You can blame, if you have something to show as evidence. If you have nothing to present, this is a usual idle talk, stuffing, information warfare, but not a violation of the contract by the parties. You can also mention the CLAB container system based on railway platforms and cars. Yet again. While there are no deployed these systems - this is just talk, but not a violation of the INF Treaty
  17. +1
    22 September 2017 02: 49
    With all the ensuing consequences, up to a preemptive strike on enemy territory.
    Russia will never strike a preemptive strike in response to the deployment of missiles. Missiles have already been deployed in Europe and Turkey. In response, there was only an attempt to deploy their missiles in Cuba.
    And in the USA they know very well that such a threat does not exist. Whether they will cancel the INF Treaty will be decided in Washington based solely on their own interests, and Russia will not be able to influence this in any way. All that Russia can in this situation is to prepare retaliatory measures to deploy its own medium and shorter range missiles.
    Naturally, the answer may not be symmetrical but not striking.
    Of course, if missiles are deployed at our borders, the tension will increase sharply due to the too short flight time of these missiles, we will have to increase the combat readiness of the Strategic Missile Forces and reduce the reaction speed to a minimum.
  18. 0
    22 September 2017 03: 40
    Quote: Krasnyiy komissar
    It should be answered symmetrically by deploying our missiles in Cuba and Kamchatka if the United States decides to deploy its missiles at the borders of Russia. If the deployment of missiles in Cuba is impossible, then I would not rule out our preemptive strike on the position areas of US missiles in Europe.

    ... there is no need to exclude it .. Do you really think that if we * cover * their bases in Europe there will be * a vigorous war * - they will wipe themselves off with a wet striped rag and that's all ... well, they will scream like a cut pig, and they’ll go to the same horseradish .. to 3 world-developing countries .. with a torn economy ...
  19. 0
    23 September 2017 02: 35
    Damned Americans! We are GOD's chosen people! Putin 20! 8
  20. 3vs
    0
    24 September 2017 08: 24
    For a preemptive strike there must be absolutely accurate data on targets.
    The priority is the destruction of targets and the nomination of an ultimatum to the Saxon about the withdrawal of military bases from Europe.