AM-17 and AMB-17 compact machines

147
In recent years, the domestic defense industry has presented a number of promising samples of small arms weapons. So, last year the small-sized MA was shown for the first time. The development of this project was continued, and on its basis two new samples were created. During the recent international military-technical forum "Army-2017", the first copies of the AM-17 and AMB-17 submachine guns were presented.

New machines were developed by Kalashnikov Concern specialists as part of the further development of ideas already implemented in previous projects. The new weapon retains certain features of the product MA, shown in the 2016 year, but it has some differences. In addition, in the framework of new projects it was proposed to use original ideas. So, the AMB-17 submachine gun is proposed to be equipped with an integrated device of silent and flameless firing, expanding the range of tasks to be solved.





According to the developer, the new AM-17 was created as a compact and light weapon for special forces. The result of this was getting the smallest possible size and weight. When the stock is folded perspective automaton has a length of about 500 mm. The mass of weapons without a magazine is about 2,5 kg. Such design features greatly simplify the transportation and use of weapons.

As in the case of the "last year" project of AI, the developers of the AM-17 submachine gun decided to move away from some of the traditional solutions used in domestic small arms projects. First of all, it affected the design of the receiver. Instead of a box with a removable lid, used on previous Soviet and Russian machines, it is proposed to use a product consisting of two large units.



The receiver of the big sizes is executed in the form of two "receivers" connected by a hinge and fixed in the working position with the help of a pin. For service elements of the receiver are disconnected and weapons "break in two." As with other systems of similar architecture, in the AM-17, the top element of the receiver is intended for mounting the barrel and some automation components with a gas engine. Its front part serves as the hook shank. The lower receiver, in turn, accommodates the details of the firing mechanism and the receiving shaft of the store. The pistol grip and trigger guard are made integral with the receiver.

The upper part, when firing experiencing significant loads, should be made of steel. A less loaded lower box assembly is proposed to be made of plastic. This approach to the materials allowed to reduce to some extent the total mass of the machine, as well as simplify its production.



It is reported that advanced weapons received automation based on a gas engine with a short piston stroke. The movable slide frame is equipped with a butterfly valve. Locking the barrel before firing is done with the help of three lugs. An interesting feature of the slide group is the placement of the reloading handle. It is fixed above the shutter and almost at the same level with it. At the same time, it is possible to withdraw the handle to any side of the weapon. To do this, in the walls of the upper receiver has a pair of longitudinal slots. Under the right slot is the ejection window.

Automatic received a rifled barrel of medium length. In the presented form, AM-17 is completed with a slotted flame arrester with horizontal windows.



Above the pistol grip is a trigger mechanism. Type USM, unfortunately, is not specified. Control of this device is carried out with the help of a flag of the fuse-translator of fire. For more convenience, the arrow machine has two such flags. They are located above the pistol grip. Depending on the position of the checkbox, it is possible to block USM, fire by singles or firing in bursts.

The AM-17 machine is designed for a domestic intermediate cartridge 5,45x39 mm. For ammunition supply is proposed to use detachable box stores of existing and future types. During the exhibition “Army-2017” the machine gun was shown with a plastic magazine on 30 cartridges, having transparent inserts to control the ammunition consumption. In its place, the store is fixed with a snap-on design.



In accordance with current trends, the new Russian machine gun provides a certain freedom of choice of sighting devices. The upper receiver unit is equipped with a standard Picatinny rail that runs along its entire length. This allows you to install any compatible sight of a particular class. Thus, the exhibition sample of the machine gun was shown with mechanical sights, and in the advertising video from the Kalashnikov concern a weapon with a collimator sight was shown.

Greater ease of use is also provided by an adjustable butt. Its basis is a tubular member pivotally attached to the receiver. Inside such a tube, the L-shaped device is movably fixed with a butt pad, having a lock for fixing in the desired position. If necessary, the butt can be folded forward-right. In the folded position butt does not interfere with shooting. Its “root” part is higher than the pistol grip, while the back plate is located under the window of the ejection of the sleeves.



It is reported that in combat status, the advanced AM-17 machine has the smallest possible dimensions and weight. The combat characteristics, however, have not yet been announced. Perhaps such information will be published in the foreseeable future.

Also, on the basis of existing developments and solutions, the Kalashnikov concern created a small-sized, silent AMB-17 machine gun. In general, it repeats the design of the "basic" AM-17, but has a number of characteristic differences. To obtain a number of new features, ammunition and automation equipment was reworked. In addition, AMB-17 received a modified trunk with additional devices.





One of the most noticeable differences of the silent automaton is another upper unit of the receiver. To install new devices, its front end has larger dimensions. In addition, there are large cracks for the supply of atmospheric air. The rest of the receiver is similar to that used in the AM-17 project.

A sharp reduction in the noise produced when firing, was obtained by means of two solutions. The first is an integrated silent shooting device. This device, characterized by relatively large dimensions, is mounted in front of the upper receiver, on top of the barrel. The task of the device is to hold hot powder gases and prevent the formation of a shock wave outside the muzzle.



The second solution, which reduced the noise of the machine gun, was to choose a different ammunition. Instead of the standard domestic intermediate cartridge, AMB-17 machine gun should use special SP-5, SP-6 and PUB-9. Cartridges 9x39 mm differ subsonic initial speed of the bullet, which further reduces the noise when shooting. To use such a cartridge sponsors had properly recycle automation design. In addition, a silent machine must be equipped with other shops. It declared the possibility of shopping on 20 and 30 cartridges.

The rest of the design of the two machines as similar as possible or identical. Like the AM-17, the special AMB-17 has a flashing receiver, USM controls of increased convenience, folding stock, etc. At the same time, a silent automaton has a slightly greater potential in terms of installing additional devices. The upper Picatinny rail covering the entire length of the receiver was supplemented with a short rail on the bottom surface of the forearm.

By its dimensions and mass, the AMB-17 machine is similar to a “normal” sample chambered for 5,45x39 mm. The mass of the product is about 2,5 kg, the length with the butt folded is about 500 mm. Unfortunately, the main technical and combat characteristics of this weapon have not yet been disclosed either. It is hoped that such information will be published in the near future.



Despite the use of a number of new ideas and solutions that are not yet typical of Russian small arms, promising AM-17 and AMB-17 automata are considered as a means of filling in already existing niches. Thus, an automatic without a silencer can replace existing samples of small-sized automatic weapons used by special units. In some cases, such a replacement will lead to a noticeable increase in firepower.

The AMB-17 submachine gun, equipped with a silent and flameless device, is considered as a potential replacement for the product of the AS “Val”. Both machines use the same cartridge, but the new AMB-17 is smaller. Perhaps there is a difference in the specifications, but the information on this matter yet.

According to published information, at present there are only a few prototypes of advanced small arms. They have already been tested at the shooting range and, apparently, have already passed part of the necessary tests. According to the press service of the Kalashnikov concern, in the next 2018, two automatic machines will be submitted for state tests. After this stage of inspections, a full-scale serial production of weapons can be launched in the interests of a particular customer.



The press service also noted that the power structures of Russia had already expressed interest in promising small arms systems. AM-17 and AMB-17 may be subject to contracts with the Federal Security Service, the Federal Guard Service and the Rosgvardia. However, information about the actual signing of the agreement has, for obvious reasons, have not been published.

In recent years, the Kalashnikov concern has developed and introduced several new small arms models, including promising assault rifles. The creation of new projects and the development of existing designs continues, and their results are regularly shown at exhibitions. In the foreseeable future, all the new tests will have to pass the new small-sized automatic machines AM-17 and AMB-17. Continue to follow the news about this weapon.


On the materials of the sites:
https://kalashnikov.media/
https://tvzvezda.ru/
http://ria.ru/
http://rg.ru/
http://zonwar.ru/
http://mpopenker.livejournal.com/
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147 comments
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  1. 0
    12 September 2017 07: 18
    The video was shot from silent AMB. sad I would like to hear. And then, AM tinkles very much.
    1. +3
      12 September 2017 10: 10
      If you are talking about a jingle at 0:50, then this is not a jingle not from a shot but from a bullet hitting a target. A shot is clearly audible and after a split second a ring.
    2. +2
      12 September 2017 10: 50
      All will show state tests. A good product has turned out or not. It's too early to scold
      1. 0
        12 September 2017 12: 57
        Quote: vkl.47
        All will show state tests.

        The Warrior was not put up for the contest, which means this product is inferior to AK in advance. So you can immediately scold.)))
        1. +5
          12 September 2017 17: 06
          but what does the warrior have to do with it? This is a highly specialized weapon.
          1. +1
            12 September 2017 18: 52
            What exactly is the AM-17 narrowly specialized in? What is short? What prevents lengthening? Nothing. Short it is strictly for marketing reasons. Those. to occupy its niche and not create competition for AK.
            1. +4
              12 September 2017 19: 28
              even so))) why be shy then you can also make a machine gun from it)))
              1. +1
                12 September 2017 19: 37
                A machine gun (full-fledged) is not allowed, a machine gun needs shooting with an open shutter, a removable barrel and tape. But an ersatz like RPK-74 is quite, the receiver is steel, it will not melt.
            2. +2
              13 September 2017 10: 20
              "According to the developer, the new machine gun AM-17 was created as a compact and light weapon for special forces." - this is "Sisyphus labor".
              1. 0
                13 September 2017 13: 36
                Dear, I know without your valuable quotes that the machine, both the original and the modern reincarnation, was created compact, didn’t you try to comprehend why in this way, and not as an alternative to the AK-74, AK-12? The design hierarchy in design bureaus, the dubious reliability of short stroke piston automation, the risks associated with the extreme conservatism of the military, market positioning, aren't they?
                However, in vain I enter into a polemic with you - this is the "Sisyphean labor."
                1. +2
                  13 September 2017 13: 40
                  What kind of order it was and created .. What kind of controversy with the deity, you what. I can faint from one thought.
                2. +1
                  13 September 2017 14: 06
                  Passing
                  “there’s essentially nothing to tell you, except that the light machine gun for a rifle cartridge is an assault rifle” - all the more so since you know better than me what I want to say and what I don’t want to say.
                3. +1
                  24 September 2017 01: 02
                  By the way, it would be nice to make a full-fledged machine from AM. At least for the MTR. It would be a good analogue of SCAR-L. And based on the microwave automatic rifle. Answer SCAR-H. And SCAR-CQB is already there.
                  1. 0
                    26 February 2018 22: 35
                    Quote: Yarik Bear
                    AM full automatic

                    It is more suitable for crews of aircraft / helicopters / armored vehicles, etc. personnel - compact and lightweight - this is for fighters, for whom the machine gun is a weapon of self-defense, and not the main working tool.
        2. +1
          13 September 2017 03: 33
          The automatic machine didn’t have time for Ratnik, but since they didn’t receive anything and the “new” AK-12 is essentially an old AK-74 and its optics are not reliable, this automatic machine made using the app-lover scheme is quite capable of replacing the combined-arms version . Therefore, the state test cycle
    3. +2
      12 September 2017 12: 21
      This target is tinkling) It hits like a standard Ksenia, sort of ...
  2. +1
    12 September 2017 07: 50
    They took the old MA, who lost the contest "Ksyusha", made a plastic body kit and got a replacement "Ksyusha".
    1. +2
      12 September 2017 12: 23
      Quote: WarNoob
      and got the replacement "Ksyusha".

      "Ksenia" in the "Canaries" keeps the impact of a silent grenade launcher. MA is not a fact that will withstand. On the other hand, this grenade launcher is still not needed by anyone.
    2. +2
      13 September 2017 03: 38
      Then the selection criteria were completely different and no one paid attention to the stability of the external sighting system and MA Dragunov is still noticeably different from AM-17. The future for AM-17 or similar design a la SCAR / ACR
      1. 0
        16 September 2017 16: 22
        MA Dragunova is still noticeably different from AM-17

        I can’t say anything about the differences, because it’s unlikely that anyone of us sorted and compared these two samples, but I think that apart from plastic and Picatinny rails there is nothing new there, because even in many reference books it is indicated that MA Kalashnikov was made on the basis of MA Dragunov (for example, here http://zonwar.ru/news4/news_747_MA_Kalashnikov.ht
        ml), and the external architecture of the weapon is noticeable. And unlike these models, built on the principle of AR-15 (M-16 and others), which is slowly losing ground, the future is really for more advanced models such as SCAR, ACR, well, and here you can add the Beretta ARX-160. It is a pity that the Kalashnikov concern only cuts the development of the 70s, and does not keep up with the times and presents it to us as a gift of God. Apparently they have more marketers than designers.
        1. 0
          16 September 2017 17: 38
          It’s interesting how, and if you believe “Passing” the samples you quoted use the “dubious reliability of the short piston stroke automation” so there are no prospects :-)
          1. +2
            19 September 2017 10: 56
            As always, not everything is so simple. A short piston stroke is used for example in SVD, and it has no special problems with reliability, a long one is for example AK. The advantage of the first system is a little better balance, the second is a little better reliability. Now we need to decide who will use the weapon. If it is infantry and conscripts, then there, until the laser replaces the bullet, AK will dominate. If these are special forces, then you need such a modular weapon as SCAR, you need to fight the terrorists who seized the building - use a short barrel with a silencer and a caliber of 9x39, you need to fight a long distance - use a long barrel and a different caliber. In this case, you do not need to have five different types of weapons, but only different trunks and trigger, which are made for one with the mine store.
            1. 0
              19 September 2017 13: 03
              Yes, it was just sarcasm ... there is one “Passing” uncle who portrays an adult, although Mozart was already a genius at the age of 5, and MT Kalashnikov also made his masterpieces his gray-haired grandfather .. So according to his “authoritative” The opinion is a short move some "fi", but the real gunsmiths are not aware of this ..
  3. +4
    12 September 2017 10: 12
    An interesting tendency is looming, we are painting ideas for Americans with AP / M - series (receiver architecture, controls), they are painting with AK (gas engine, bolt group).
    1. +1
      12 September 2017 12: 53
      We stole not from the Americans, but from the Germans. And the Americans also stole from the Germans. StG-44 founder of the layout.
      1. +10
        12 September 2017 13: 19
        How much is already possible .... pass by to your favorite deutch.
        For a long time, for the thousandth time, everything was disassembled, sucked on the bones ... but no, there will surely be some kind of artiodactyl with long ears and blinders on his eyes.
      2. +3
        12 September 2017 13: 46
        And what was “fundamental” in the layout? Don’t share the secret data?
        1. +1
          12 September 2017 14: 09
          Read what people write, not what it seems to you. I wrote that the Germans were pioneers in a tipping point. For gurus who are stubborn in their opinion, they are talkative - this means that before the elements of weapons were placed in the receiver, the barrel, bolt, trigger, all in one case. The Germans used a separate layout, part of the nodes in the "apper", part in the "lover".
          1. +1
            12 September 2017 14: 23
            Very interesting, but how was the ZB-26?
            1. +3
              12 September 2017 15: 04
              Ok, ate, I'm not a ossified man, this is the first turning point. The Germans are not pioneers.
              But as a person of flexible thinking, defeat still does not recognize wink For, firstly, what is good for a machine gun is not a fact that it will be good for a machine gun, and it was the Germans who were the first to prove in practice that a break for a machine gun is buzzing. Those. anyway, the Germans are pioneers as part of assault rifles. Secondly, I was originally talking about who I borrowed from whom. Obviously, due to the fact that the StG-44 was the only assault rifle - a fracture, that both Kalashnikov and Stoner, and through them Dragunov, were repelled from the StG-44, and not from any machine gun there. Otherwise, it would be like designing a passenger car based on a heavy truck. This is not done.
              1. +4
                12 September 2017 15: 18
                Well, if it’s flexible, it’s still necessary to bend - just with ZB “the ingenious Hugo made his MKb and sculpted it, though the USM forced him to change it here, and it turned out (roughly speaking) ... And also the“ breakthrough ”was PCA - it’s easier to clean.
                1. +1
                  12 September 2017 15: 33
                  that’s where the legs grow in modern assault blasts MKb.42 (W) and MKb.42 (H).
                  here and a butterfly valve and a gas piston and an intermediate cartridge and a tipping arrangement
                  1. +3
                    12 September 2017 15: 40
                    You’d like to study the history of at least an intermediate cartridge, at least an assault rifle - everything will be in favor ...
                    1. 0
                      12 September 2017 20: 17
                      tell me laughing
                      in any case, the intermediate cartridge is only one link. but these assault rifles determined the overall appearance of modern assault rifles
                      1. 0
                        13 September 2017 09: 14
                        And what is this "overall look"?
                  2. 0
                    14 September 2017 15: 19
                    here and the butterfly valve

                    Well, tell me, at least one modification of the Germans under 7,92x33 which would have been locked by turning the shutter?
                    1. 0
                      14 September 2017 16: 47
                      The MKb -42 (W) had a rotary shutter, but the "automation" with an annular gas piston ...
                    2. 0
                      14 September 2017 22: 59
                      MKb. 42 (W) here. Search and read the rest for yourself. I’m not a nanny to wipe your snot. By the way, this is the first assault rifle in the world with a rotary lock
                      1. 0
                        15 September 2017 09: 26
                        “By the way, this is the first assault rifle in the world with a rotary bolt lock” - which is at least a controversial statement ... Yes, at least the Volmer-35?
                2. 0
                  12 September 2017 15: 38
                  Quote: mat-vey
                  Well, if it’s flexible, then you still have to bend - it’s with ZB that the ingenious Hugo sculpted his MKb

                  They were late, I immediately realized by the skew of the shutter who slammed someone, and in advance ... did not bend, but bent down, so that your throwing of an unidentified substance flew past the target wink
                  When he was a spawn, he did not consider Hugo a genius gunsmith, IMHO, judging by his biography, after his first PP (was he?) He was the manager of the company, businessman, but others designed it.
                  Quote: mat-vey
                  And also PPSh was a “breakthrough” - it’s easier to clean

                  And the turning point was a hunting rifle, and the turning point was a revolver, and Plato epicly generalized the man to the “two-legged without feathers”, that is, equated him to a plucked chicken.
                  1. +1
                    12 September 2017 15: 44
                    You do not need to judge others around yourself - read what people write ...
              2. +4
                12 September 2017 15: 45
                Quote: Passing by
                Those. anyway, the Germans are pioneers as part of assault rifles.
                The Germans were pioneers of the new 7,92 × 33 intermediate cartridge (and even with a huge stretch). Not even a cartridge, but the concept of its use (again with a huge stretch). From what all subsequent constructor-inventors pushed off. Of course, both ours and the Americans studied STG, but to say that STG was directly some kind of revelation ... Moreover, almost all the leading countries had their own developments in this area at that time. And the USSR / Russian Empire was probably the very first in this matter. We recall Vladimir Grigoryevich Fedorov and his experience with a 6,5 × 57 mm cartridge, and this is for a minute 1907. And besides, we recall Vasily Alekseevich Degtyarev, Roshchepeyya, Frolov, Tokarev and others. Their work on a low-pulse cartridge and weapons under it. T.ch. Mikhail Timofeevich had someone to rely on and besides Hugo Schmeisser.
                1. +2
                  12 September 2017 15: 58
                  The French are more suitable for the role of “pioneers” ... they managed to fight in World War I with “assault rifles” ...
                  1. 0
                    12 September 2017 19: 09
                    The French are more suitable for the role of "pioneers"

                    I know them Shosh, machine gun under a rifle cartridge, but about the assault rifle did not hear, enlighten.
                    1. 0
                      12 September 2017 19: 12
                      But somehow it’s not a fan of Sisyphean labor.
                      1. 0
                        12 September 2017 19: 17
                        Clearly, even though I am open to any iron arguments, there is essentially nothing to tell you, except that the light machine gun for the rifle cartridge is an assault rifle. An argument from the category about the identity of a plucked chicken and a person.
                    2. +1
                      14 September 2017 15: 27

                      This is the Riberol assault rif. 1918.
                  2. 0
                    12 September 2017 22: 19
                    Quote: mat-vey
                    The French are more suitable for the role of “pioneers” ... they managed to fight in World War I with “assault rifles” ...
                    it is, but I talked about
                    Quote: otto meer
                    concepts of its application
                    agree different things.
                    1. 0
                      13 September 2017 09: 16
                      So under the "concept" it was done - conducting automatic fire from the hands on the go (running).
                2. 0
                  12 September 2017 19: 04
                  Quote: otto meer
                  The Germans were pioneers of the new 7,92 × 33 intermediate cartridge (and even with a huge stretch). Not even a cartridge, but the concept of its application (again with a huge stretch)

                  Yeah, with a stretch, they developed a cartridge and with a stretch, they mass-produced the world's first assault rifle in the modern sense. Are you stretching too much?
                  Quote: otto meer
                  We recall Vladimir Grigoryevich Fedorov and his experience in 6,5 × 57 mm cartridge

                  What kind of intermediate cartridge is Fedorov? Is that with an energy of 3000J? Well, well, keep pulling the owl on the globe.
                  Quote: otto meer
                  T.ch. Mikhail Timofeevich had someone to rely on and besides Hugo Schmeisser.

                  Of course, he relied on many, but for some reason, the first AK-46 is in many ways similar precisely to the StG-44.
                  1. 0
                    12 September 2017 20: 21
                    rather on both products of the Germans. from Walther who didn’t pass, and from Schmeiser
                  2. +3
                    12 September 2017 23: 01
                    Quote: Passing by
                    Yeah, with a stretch, they developed a cartridge and with a stretch, they mass-produced the world's first assault rifle in the modern sense. Are you stretching too much?
                    No, not too much, get acquainted with the work of Vladimir Grigoryevich on the concept of the "medium cartridge", read Tokarev about the development of CBT, about disputes over ABT and everything will become clear to you. They are online - look.
                    Quote: Passing by
                    What kind of intermediate cartridge is Fedorov? Is that with an energy of 3000J? Well, well, keep pulling the owl on the globe.
                    To be precise for 6,5 × 50 mm - 2600 J (yes, I know this is Arisaka, but Fedorov was for him, and not for 6,5 × 57 of his 3100, and even for even less powerful options). 7,65×32 XPL (do you know what it is?) - 2600 J. 8×35 - 1800/2100. Your favorite 7,92 × 33 - 1900. And a bunch of these cartridges, incl. what is the problem?
                    Quote: Passing by
                    but for some reason, the first AK-46 is in many ways similar to the StG-44.
                    Straight siblings laughing , only which of AK = 46? well, for justice seem to be?
                    1. +2
                      13 September 2017 09: 30
                      So after Fedorov’s concept, the “assault rifle” was born after the trip to the front — you don’t need such rifles in the presence of machine guns, mortars, but you don’t drag out a machine gun during attacks and assaults, but it’s very necessary to suppress and press the enemy (the French came to the same conclusions at about the same time). And since he launched the Arisakov cartridges in St. Petersburg, the idea of ​​a “submachine gun” materialized in the remake of his automatic rifle (self-loading). The Arisak cartridge of the St. Petersburg equipment (6,5x51SR ) was just in power around 2000 J - which fits into the concept of an intermediate cartridge.
                    2. 0
                      13 September 2017 14: 08
                      Quote: otto meer
                      get acquainted with the works of Vladimir Grigorievich about the concept of "medium cartridge"

                      Ok, I have to, I have to read.
                      Quote: otto meer
                      6,5 × 50 mm

                      Rifle cartridge. Let it successfully fit into the intermediate niche. Thanks to the smallness of Nipponians, and not due to meaningful actions
                      Quote: otto meer
                      7,65 × 32 XPL

                      Dumb head bullet. You can fix it, but nevertheless, Manliher did just that.
                      Quote: otto meer
                      8 × 35

                      Protruding rim.
                      Quote: otto meer
                      Your favorite 7,92 × 33

                      Once again I was convinced that this is truly the first truly intermediate cartridge in the world. The only negative in the modern sense is the very short range of a direct shot.
                      Quote: otto meer
                      seem to be?

                      Seem to be. Once again I will clarify that the layout is similar, about the stuffing, the design (the so-called design school) I never say, it all differs dramatically. But the layout, obviously, from the StG-44, well, or from Shosh. Our design school has nothing to do with this. I don’t understand how it can be denied.
                      1. 0
                        13 September 2017 15: 56
                        Quote: Passing by
                        Once again I was convinced that this is truly the first truly intermediate cartridge in the world.
                        technically no, regarding tactical use - perhaps yes.
                        Quote: Passing by
                        Seem to be. Once again I will clarify that the layout is similar, about the stuffing, the design (the so-called design school) I never say, it all differs dramatically.
                        well you know! Landkruyzer layout is also one in one UAZ patriot. The motor is in front, two axles, a frame, etc., but the difference is still wow. And here, in addition to general architecture, everything is different.
                  3. +1
                    14 September 2017 15: 30
                    Of course, he relied on many, but for some reason, the first AK-46 is in many ways similar precisely to the StG-44.

                    Baby, and in what place? Please, in more detail, so that I can tastefully fuck you.
                    1. 0
                      14 September 2017 16: 39
                      I would also like to know .... Although ...
                3. +1
                  14 September 2017 15: 24
                  Yes, the Germans were not "pioneers" of the intermediate cartridge. The first samples of such ammunition appeared in 1918 in France and in the United States. Another conversation is that the war is over and such units were not needed. Then, in the 20s and 30s, they worked on this issue almost everywhere.
                  1. 0
                    14 September 2017 16: 43
                    Well, the Russian 6,5x51SR (St. Petersburg "Arisaka") turned out to be intermediate due to the "power" of the RI chemical industry ... Russian gunpowder was far behind Japanese and English like the whole chemical industry.
                    1. 0
                      15 September 2017 14: 57
                      Or maybe the AF had a barrel seriously shorter than the Arisaki rifle?
                      1. 0
                        15 September 2017 15: 12
                        And how does it affect that the cartridges equipped in St. Petersburg with local gunpowder?
          2. +1
            12 September 2017 15: 23
            Yeah, but PPSh and PPS also the Germans stole the idea? T.S., in advance ...)))
            1. 0
              12 September 2017 20: 22
              Well than Thompson is not an option. only these are machine guns, not assault rifles
            2. 0
              13 September 2017 00: 46
              By the way, the faculty relied heavily on just the Mp-40 and others like them. Plus domestic experience. It is rather a symbiosis of two schools. Therefore, it turned out to be the most successful.
              1. +1
                13 September 2017 00: 51
                And, by the way, for everyone arguing about the origins and forerunners: it is not so important who made this or that unit the first, the question is who made it better.
                1. 0
                  24 September 2017 01: 14
                  The origins began with a club and the indefatigable desire of men to exterminate the self-similar wassat
              2. 0
                13 September 2017 09: 33
                And about "leaning" Sudaev personally told you this?
              3. +1
                14 September 2017 15: 37
                By the way, the faculty relied heavily on just the Mp-40 and others like them.

                They didn’t even lie close.
                1. 0
                  14 September 2017 16: 35
                  No, no ... butts are similar, but they just lean, rest ...
          3. +1
            13 September 2017 03: 17
            PPSh had both an apper and a lover)))
          4. +1
            14 September 2017 15: 15
            I wrote that the Germans were pioneers in a tipping point.


            And at that time it was not a novelty.
      3. +4
        12 September 2017 18: 53
        Quote: Passing by
        We stole not from the Americans, but from the Germans. And the Americans also stole from the Germans. StG-44 founder of the layout.

        plus .. but this srach is eternal, because Rogozin said that the first to apply this scheme was M. Kalashnikov

        ps .. by the way the Germans honestly admitted that the Panther’s uniform was licked with the T34.
        AK47 grew out of AK46 and that in turn is from STG44.
        1. +3
          12 September 2017 19: 17
          And what about Kalashnikov’s carbine? It’s not fate to find out? And about the fact that Sudaev was a mentor? In the AK, the Sudaev school is climbing out of all the cracks.
          1. 0
            12 September 2017 23: 04
            Quote: mat-vey
            But what about Kalashnikov’s carbine?

            From the kid! Right word, these Germans have already overcome.
            1. +1
              14 September 2017 15: 40
              tired of it. They don’t really know Nichrome, but they’re climbing ...
              1. +1
                14 September 2017 16: 32
                In the presence of the widespread spread of broadband Internet, the idea arises that they do not want to know ...
        2. 0
          12 September 2017 20: 25
          Wasn't there armored vehicles with inclined armored plates before the t-34?
        3. +1
          14 September 2017 15: 39
          AK47 grew from AK46 and that in turn from STG44

          In which place?! They did not even lie close.
        4. 0
          3 January 2018 07: 39
          Well, yes, Rogozin is an authoritative gunsmith))
        5. 0
          26 February 2018 22: 41
          Quote: 32363
          honestly that Panther shape was licked with T34

          This is only one option from several projects. But he was inferior in manufacturability and in terms of requirements. As a result, the option with a completely different form and performance characteristics won. With the copy of the T-34, the Italians became more confused.
    2. +1
      14 September 2017 15: 10
      An interesting trend is emerging, we are trying to get ideas from American / AR - M series (receiver architecture, controls)

      Look at the structure of the teaching staff, and you will stop flogging the garbage.
      1. +1
        14 September 2017 22: 56
        Quote: Grille
        See how PPP works
        Find out first what a receiver design is, you probably heard an aper, there is a lover. Its main features. And then tell me about the receiver PPS. How connected receiver with trigger boxwhy is there such a powerful connection about interchangeability boxes even from one batch of release, not to mention different years. In the meantime
        Quote: Grille
        stop garbage flogging
        and tone down, with your buddy buddies you will talk like that.
  4. +1
    12 September 2017 10: 41
    And I always liked the OTs-14 Thunderstorm, especially a grenade launcher instead of a forend. Not without flaws, of course, all the same, 1993.
    1. +3
      12 September 2017 12: 41
      Quote: andrewkor
      And I always liked the OTs-14 Thunderstorm, especially a grenade launcher instead of a forearm.
      Monsieur knows a lot about perversions! No offense - a joke of humor drinks
    2. 0
      13 September 2017 02: 02
      So the concept did not stall, but was continued.
      1. 0
        26 February 2018 22: 42
        But didn’t they want the Thunderstorm for low reliability and insufficient ergonomics?
  5. +1
    12 September 2017 12: 13
    I think for tankers just right
    1. +2
      12 September 2017 12: 51
      Quote: Bronevick
      I think for tankers just right


      It also seemed to me that the AM-17, as a replacement for the AKS74U, was tankers, helicopter pilots, etc.
  6. 0
    12 September 2017 12: 49
    The AM-17 assault rifle is designed for the domestic intermediate cartridge of 5,45x39 mm.

    For the KTA, the AM-17 is already a controversial example for close combat - ammunition too ricocheted from the walls, carefully cleaning the room, without avoiding the defeat of civilians or hostages - will be problematic.

    And with the cartridge SP-5 SP-6 also for open spaces and long distances - with excess power for rooms.
    That is, the same list is situational, as for VAL and Vintorez.
    1. 0
      12 September 2017 13: 48
      Well, it would be a desire, but making a new bullet (like a well-forgotten old one) is not a problem ...
  7. +1
    12 September 2017 13: 59
    And what's new ... "The large receiver is made in the form of two" receivers "connected by a hinge and locked in position by means of a pin." ... well, back to the layout diagrams of the weapons of the 40s of the last century, everything new is forgotten old.
  8. 0
    12 September 2017 15: 06
    And the point is, there are so many Kalash in warehouses that nobody needs these weapons.
  9. +1
    12 September 2017 15: 08
    Well, if they made weapons for different ammunition, then nothing will hinder to slightly increase the barrel and make a full-size automatic carbine like AK-20 there (conditionally). And already he will go to replace the AK-74M. And also its analogue AK-21 (conditionally) chambered for 7,62x39.
    1. 0
      13 September 2017 03: 21
      Yes, it may well grow into a replacement for the main automaton, with some lengthening, since it is much better friends with optics, and the app lover scheme is generally preferable in modern conditions (you need a base for sights). Kalashnikov was a great scheme for a mechanical sight, but progress is moving forward. The most suitable new exhibition
    2. +1
      24 September 2017 01: 17
      Ak-21 is better for rifle type SCAR-H. The only question is: our three linear 7.62x54 or 308.win 7.62x51?
  10. 0
    12 September 2017 18: 50
    And in my opinion, the same Klyuha (AKSU) is only a kit for a couple of hundred $ and ... that's it. Kalash again try on the old element base ale-op focus .. and voila, a new affect not yet well then comes to you
    1. 0
      14 September 2017 07: 47
      In fact, this is the Dragunov assault rifle, better known as MA, modernized by the KK to modern requirements. So he has nothing to do with the AKS-74U, there is a completely different design.
      1. 0
        14 September 2017 14: 24
        Well, some one still has ... MA lost the Modern contest to this very AKS-74U ... So the design was the design, but there was one technical task.
        1. 0
          14 September 2017 16: 03
          Yes, but now the technical task is different. The solid bar of the picatini, the modular design and the unification with another machine, give a big bonus. In addition, the AM-17 clearly took into account the operating experience of the AKS-74U - the ventilated forend is immediately provided for in it.
          1. 0
            14 September 2017 16: 59
            Then in another way - this is a weapon for one niche, but in a modern outfit ...
            CASE - missed something, but what about unification?
  11. +2
    12 September 2017 21: 20
    But this is serious already. Great design .. noiseless. And yes .. that is exactly how the picatini bar should stand. Dead and motionless to the barrel and receiver. The only question is the mobility of an aper to a lover. Is the connection broken or not? Although how many colts ejarochnyh did not look all hang out a little but fall ..... Maybe this is not critical? It seems to me all the same the knot of the hinge is critical. Of course it is desirable that he does not hang out.
    1. +1
      14 September 2017 16: 11
      Quote: tracer
      Although how many colts ejarochnyh did not look all hang out a little but fall .....

      Well, in army poles, this is done on purpose, for compatibility with the marques of other manufacturers - the requirements of the Pendo-Tang military. Here it is completely useless. All loaded parts are located in the aper and the butt is attached to it, so that the lover mount is rigid and there is no load on the hinges, like the AR15, in which the butt is attached to the lover there. Accordingly, there will be nothing to talk about.
      1. 0
        14 September 2017 18: 37
        Class .... even more equipment pleased if so. Workmanship under the strictest control. And the device can enter legends.
  12. +3
    12 September 2017 22: 28
    1. Automatic machines are new, but by old standards: One-handed reset of the store has not been done; There is no fixed cocking handle; there is no shutter stop in the rear position.
    2. In the rest of the construction, a repetition of the constructions of the past.
    1. 0
      12 September 2017 22: 49
      Quote: John22
      1. Automatic machines are new, but by old standards: One-handed reset of the store has not been done; There is no fixed cocking handle; there is no shutter stop in the rear position.
      2. In the rest of the construction, a repetition of the constructions of the past.

      "Bicycles" and so enough. Why new?
    2. +4
      12 September 2017 23: 07
      Quote: John22
      One-hand store reset not done
      Like this? And how many hands do you unfasten the AK store?
      1. 0
        24 September 2017 01: 19
        Looks like two, and the machine under the arm clamps or puts on laughing ground and presses his foot
    3. +2
      13 September 2017 03: 27
      In the domestic school, the shutter delay was never given much significance and the transition to it will require replacing the store, which no one will do. The handle with the separation from the bolt is generally more than controversial and requires a rammer, which makes the structure heavier and more dimensional. To make the handle separately and without a rammer is a park idiocy
  13. +2
    13 September 2017 13: 23
    "An interesting feature of the bolt group was the placement of the reload handle. It is fixed above
    shutter and almost flush with it. "
    I did not understand this. As well as did not understand the need for AMB-17. If Val is working well, why change it? And AM-17, as I understand it, becomes a replacement for the AKS-74? A game of candles will cost?
    1. 0
      13 September 2017 13: 42
      At "Val" it seems the price is not comme il faut and the resource is not enough ...
      1. +2
        13 September 2017 14: 18
        Well, perhaps so ... I just do not know about the price and resource "Vala". I did not use and did not even hold in my hands
      2. +4
        13 September 2017 15: 25
        in addition to Klimovsky Val and Whirlwind, there are also Tula shorties 9A-91.
        So we just see Izhmash’s attempt to chop off a piece of the market.

        Z.Y. The video with the next "practical" shooter really delivered - he would have grasped the arrester with his finger - he could have got a tactical grasp! bully
        1. +3
          13 September 2017 18: 18
          Quote: psiho117
          Z.Y. The video with the next "practical" shooter really delivered - he would have grasped the arrester with his finger - he could have got a tactical grasp!
          At 0:30 the movement with firing is also impressive - leg by foot - the style of "drunken monkey with a gun." Just go on the side and don’t show off, but no - it’s also “not tactical”!
          1. +2
            13 September 2017 18: 25
            Quote: otto meer
            style "drunk monkey with a gun."


            So I'm not the only one to see it :)
        2. +1
          18 September 2017 05: 43
          I also pay attention, he drew a little brush to himself, I didn’t shoot it ... I’ll explain .. the grip so hollow is fashionable western trends. Fashion from there. Well, in ours they like to show off so that "go to Nevsky all in varnish." Although it’s a fucking grip if you don’t let the kilometer turn, even if you let the vseravno dolbutny.
    2. 0
      14 September 2017 18: 40
      It can be seen that you are well acquainted with the work on BSL but small arms are clearly not your thing.
      1. 0
        14 September 2017 23: 01
        Quote: tracer
        you are well acquainted with work on BSL
        Her, we are more MPL-50.
        Quote: tracer
        but small arms are clearly not your thing.
        But where are we, in contrast to such luminaries ...
        1. 0
          18 September 2017 05: 45
          In shooting sports, the "rifle" has been counting service for 31 years. Are you enough?
          1. +1
            18 September 2017 11: 40
            Quote: tracer
            Are you enough?
            Enough for what? If in order for you to convince me that it is necessary to move like this - shooting foot by foot, then no.
  14. +2
    13 September 2017 18: 29


    I wonder what kind of Kalashnikov assault rifle is meant?
    1. +2
      13 September 2017 19: 49
      So it’s kind of like 5.45 shops are all between themselves brothers. In any case, that would be "no matter how" this is not met. Always accepted from all and red and black of all kinds. But if it’s about the joint venture, then yes - the slip came out.
  15. 0
    13 September 2017 21: 11
    Modern Ksenia. Operation will show better worse or just look different. Purely visually I saw one big minus. The fuse box is very subtle. Would it be convenient to switch fingers that are tired and swollen from work?
    1. +2
      14 September 2017 18: 54
      Yes, the machine is good, no words. You know how armchair expert weapons differ from those who even simply understand "what is this about?" Especially for lovers of “hang-ups” with collimator sights. When you run as fast as you can and not a dybog who shoots you, you hear the bullets whistle, jump from the run to the ground or asphalt or concrete with glass broken and you need to fire ... So now imagine the state of the arrow. PULSE, BLOOD PRESSURE, RESPIRATION ........ HELMET ON THE DUSTY EYES ..and What? Hey, where are the fans of collimator sights? And also the orthopedic arms of the front handles? .. Well, if at all you get to that side, this is already a plus, “rested” and run on as long as you want. Who knows, in fact, what this weapon is for and what it is that it rarely gives out "advice on a cosmic scale and cosmic same stupidity" in the weapon theme. The remaining "experts" are more than enough ..
      1. +1
        14 September 2017 23: 12
        Quote: tracer
        Hey, where are the fans of collimator sights? And also the orthopedic arms of the front handles? ..
        Well, for example, here is one of these
        Quote: tracer
        lovers of "hanging" with collimator sights.

        1. 0
          18 September 2017 05: 49
          If you train in the middle, then it’s normal, although it does not give any advantages. But visually reduce the picture by the sight of the shooter. About batteries, do not forget to change it. And another piece of advice ... "learn the mate part"
          1. +2
            18 September 2017 12: 04
            Quote: tracer
            If you are training in the middle, then it’s normal
            You, my friend, will decide whether or not the full-time “sample”, including the collimator, is universal evil, or
            Quote: tracer
            normal, although it does not give any advantages.
            Although at the expense of advantages I can bet much, but this does not cancel the ability to work on mechanics.
            And after this
            Quote: tracer
            About batteries, do not forget to change it.
            give such advice
            Quote: tracer
            "learn mate part"
            it’s just how shameful you should be. At least take an interest in how much one single battery there is enough.
            So far it’s unconvincing, and in places it’s just a pity, especially
            Quote: tracer
            Although it’s a fucking grip if you don’t let the kilometer turn, even if you let the vseravno dolbutny.
            why? why do you think so? or is it just God's opinion of shooting sports that is not negotiable?
            PS: yes, and stop poking, you and I did not drink from one brother.
      2. +2
        7 October 2017 04: 09
        Hey, where are the fans of collimator sights? And also the orthopedic arms of the front handles? ..

        although he does not give any advantages. But visually reduce the picture by the sight of the shooter.


        "But the men don’t know!"




        But thanks for the fact that you, "experts", you will open your eyes to the operating military, the special forces of the Russian Guard and the Central Special Forces of the Federal Security Service, as well as separately to the special forces "Alpha" that they are categorically mistaken. lol
  16. 0
    14 September 2017 07: 06
    Quote: bunta

    I wonder what kind of Kalashnikov assault rifle is meant?

    5,45x39 of course. Under 9x39 they tried to make the AK-9, but it didn’t go beyond the demonstrator. So under 9h39 there are no Kalash.
    1. +1
      14 September 2017 07: 15
      I'm not talking about that. Why is the word "Kalashnikov" in quotation marks?
      1. 0
        14 September 2017 07: 31
        Because the Kalashnikov concern.
  17. +1
    14 September 2017 08: 23
    Quote: Chever
    "Bicycles" and so enough. Why new?

    The problem is that it’s just not enough. I explain the situation. AKS-74U was produced in Tula from 79 to 94 years. Since then, it has never been produced anywhere, and Soviet reserves remained not only in Russia, but also in the republics of the former USSR. So today Ksyuh’s reserves are coming to an end, because for 23 years not a single new barrel has been released, and there were also complaints about the AKS-74U. So the Russian Guard and the Ministry of Internal Affairs are now interested in a new shortened assault rifle under the 5,45x39 cartridge, taking into account modern requirements. As for weapons under the 9x39 cartridge, we have a lot of samples for it, but there is no normal machine gun. I will explain in more detail. After the creation of the BCC, it was logically decided that under the 9x39 cartridge it would be nice to stir up the machine too. They made Val, but that's just it is not an automatic machine. He inherited a high price from Vintorez and some "tender" nodes. Accordingly, handling shaft requires careful. But in a combat situation, this is not always possible. So now, Val is considered a silent carbine for accurate shooting with the possibility of automatic fire, and in this capacity, consumers are quite happy. BUT! An automatic machine is still needed, but the 9A-91, VSK-94, OTs-11, Tiss, OTs-14 Thunderstorm, and SR-3M Whirlwind did not meet expectations. So a submachine gun chambered for 9x39 is also required, and not what is, but what is needed. Well, if there is demand, then there is supply.
    1. +1
      15 September 2017 12: 25
      Quote: OQtagooi
      and 9A-91, VSK-94, OTs-11, Tiss, OTs-14 Thunderstorm, and SR-3M Whirlwind did not meet expectations

      Well, why - they all justified. Rarely, what small arms come from the 90s, have gained as high popularity as this family under 9h39.
      But time passed, and now the time comes for new models, with high ergonomics and the ability to hang all the relevant whistles and farts.
      Although, if the Tulaks had fussed, they could well have revived their 9A-91 family ... They would have made a new plastic body kit with slats, a little bit of shamanism on the trigger, perhaps they added a ZZ - and, against the background of their enthusiasm for modularity and multi-caliber, it could have fired.
      This in the 90s, the idea of ​​4 different calibers based on one automatic was too new, and there was no money - and now this is the trend bully
      1. 0
        15 September 2017 18: 04
        Quote: psiho117
        Although, if the Tulaks fussed, they could well have revived their 9A-91 family ...

        VSK-94 was just made on the basis of 9A-91, but the results were worse than Val’s, not to mention BCC. So he was not accidentally buried; there were no prospects there. Although there were no special claims to VSK-94 either.
        Quote: psiho117
        Rarely, what small arms come from the 90s, have gained as high popularity as this family under 9h39.

        This popularity quickly ended as soon as the user found out how much the ammunition cost. :) An attempt to produce a cheaper cartridge in the form of PAB-9 failed miserably. As a result, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, instead of the Yew trees, which they praised very much for testing, purchased the AK-105, which can be considered compact with a stretch. But where to go then, if there is simply no better option?
    2. 0
      25 September 2017 21: 43
      That is, the shaft is a screw cutter with a folding butt?
  18. +1
    14 September 2017 09: 43
    Quote: Passing by
    Once again convinced that this is truly the first truly intermediate cartridge in the world

    The Italians back in 1921-1923 created 7,35x32.
    1. 0
      14 September 2017 14: 26
      Yes, there were a lot of them, the same Germans-breaking bookmarks to stir up ...
  19. +1
    15 September 2017 07: 26
    Quote: Passing by
    dubious reliability of short stroke automation

    Simonov's self-loading Karabiner strongly disagrees with you. :) Do not forget that a system with a short stroke of the piston works the worse, the longer the barrel, and accordingly the rod transfers energy from the piston to the bolt group. So the ideal option for its use is short-barreled assault rifles and carbines, which actually takes place in the case of AM-17 and AMB-17. Here, it works without complaints, moreover, it allows to unify the design for the machine with a long barrel of 200-220 mm (AM-17) and 60-80mm (AMB-17). And it is the use of automation with a short piston stroke that does not make it possible to make a full-size automatic machine for an intermediate cartridge on the basis of AM-17. Although it is possible, an automaton with a similar modular design will appear. But it will be a barrel made on the automation of a microwave - Chukavin sniper rifle. Here on its basis, making a full-sized machine is not a problem.
    1. 0
      18 September 2017 05: 53
      Quote: OQtagooi
      it works the worse, the longer the barrel, and accordingly the rod transfers energy from the piston to the bolt group.

      Strange statement .... How does the piston stroke depend on the length of the barrel? Despite the fact that the pressure in the barrel in the area of ​​the gas outlet is constant, have you come up with a new physics?
      1. 0
        10 October 2017 10: 37
        A gas piston in SVD also does not work))))? And in SCAR, ACR, NK and even a bunch of other modern and not quite modern designs? In saigas and boars of smooth-bore?
        1. 0
          13 October 2017 08: 56
          Quote: Michael HORNET
          A gas piston in SVD

          Very strange. The diameter of the gas outlet and the length of the barrel ... Well, tell me how the gas regulator affects the length of the barrel. Do you understand what you wrote? Campaign comments "OQtagooi" have not even read.
  20. 0
    15 September 2017 08: 36
    Quote: mat-vey
    missed something, but what about unification?

    Well, they probably missed the point that AM-17 and AMB-17 are different machines. AM-17 is a compact machine for an intermediate cartridge, with a barrel of 200-220 mm, with automation based on a short piston stroke and gas extraction from the barrel, and AMB-17 is a full-size machine for a 9x39 “silent” cartridge, with a barrel 60 -80mm, with automation based on the short stroke of the piston and gas extraction from the expansion chamber of the muffler, as on the BCC and Valais.
    1. 0
      18 September 2017 05: 42
      Quote: OQtagooi
      the selection of gases from the expansion chamber of the muffler, both on the BCC and Valais.

      Dear, are you confusing anything? The selection of gases from this weapon is carried out according to the standard scheme, from the bore. Yes, the length of the threaded part of the barrel is also 200 mm., But not 60-80 mm in any way ... Study the materiel.
  21. 0
    15 September 2017 12: 55
    mat-vey,
    it’s strange that Kalashnikov was not the first to apply, was it? laughing
    1. 0
      15 September 2017 15: 13
      jonhr
      Mr. stupidity.
  22. 0
    2 October 2017 18: 55
    Well I do not know. Two very similar, but nonetheless excellent in the insides of the machine, with personal cartridges ....
  23. 0
    11 February 2019 16: 50
    The AM-17 assault rifle is designed for domestic intermediate cartridge 5,45x39 mm.
    Did I miss something? Where can I see such an interesting munition?
  24. Kaw
    -1
    18 December 2019 22: 11
    But what if this machine has a slightly longer barrel and is used as a combined arms weapon? There will be a carbine M-4. Unlike all AKs, this one is partially made of plastic and much lighter.

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