Military Review

The Pacific Fleet of Russia "with a bang" is losing the arms race in the APR. Global problems of combat sustainability

210



Delays in building a domestic aircraft carrier fleet are only a small part of the complex of problems that has been outlined recently with the pace of serial production of other types of warships of the main classes. While the two leading American shipyards, Bath Iron Works (Maine) and Ingalls Shipbuilding (located in Mississippi and owned by the Northrop Grumman Ship Systems division), almost every quarter or half year they lower the new “ Aegis "- missile control destroyer weapons “Arleigh Burke Flight III” class, our “Northern Shipyard” already 8 year “squeezes” the second in series serial model of the air defense frigate of 22350 Ave. “Admiral Kasatonov” (“Admiral Gorshkov” class). The adoption of the w / o «431» in the composition of the Federation Council is expected no earlier than by 2019 year. And this is NK main class! The Americans in service with the Navy is 64 "Arley Burke" of various modifications and 4 - during the construction phase. As for the laying of the first atomic super-destroyer Ave 23560E “Leader”, which, according to anti-missile and anti-ship capabilities, will be equivalent to two “Arley Burke”, this event will take place no earlier than the middle of 19, and therefore it can be expected to be launched to the middle 20-s, when the Americans will have more 80 destroyers, the latter of which will be equipped with promising multifunctional AMDR radar instead of the good old AN / SPY-1D (V).

The same unpleasant situation is also observed with multi-purpose nuclear submarines of the 885 "Ash" and 885M "Ash-M" ave. The fleet received only one submarine of this class K-560 "Severodvinsk". The second MAPL / PLARK, modernized under the 885M K-561 “Kazan” project and undergoing factory tests, is being prepared for adoption by the Russian Navy in the 2018 year. At this point, the US Navy is already equipped with 13 ultra low-noise Virginia-class 3-class X subunits (Block I / II / III), most of which are assigned to certain aircraft carrier strike groups and acts shoulder to shoulder with the MAPL of the previous generation of Los “Angeles.” Moreover, let's not forget that all the “blocks” of “Virginia” have lower acoustic visibility than our “Ash Trees”, which is possible due to the use of a developed water jet propulsion unit.

This performance of the propeller should be introduced on the modernized Yaseny-M (885М pr.), But the final decision in the media has not yet been leaked. The detailed architecture of the avionics, as well as the acoustic profile of the updated "Ash" is still unknown, but now it is clear that the series will be several times smaller than the American submarines. In the conditions of the immense remoteness of the fleets of the Russian Navy and their extremely complex interchangeability, the shortage of multipurpose attack submarine cruisers forms a mass of submarine and surface "gaps" in the defense of remote ocean approaches to the country. Also, the shortage of MAPL will negatively affect the massiveness of the hypothetical strike by the strategic cruise missiles 3М14Т Caliber-PL on the most important strategic objects of the US Armed Forces on their territory, which is clearly noticeable against the background of the regularly developed maritime and ground systems of the US air defense-missile defense. At the same time, the shortage situation does not focus on the main combat ships of the main classes and multi-purpose nuclear submarines alone, but also affects such a submarine component of regional importance as dezel-electric submarines, which play a primary role in reliable anti-submarine and anti-ship defense of the near sea approaches to Russia.

This problem manifested itself most strongly in the Pacific Fleet of the Russian Navy, the zone of responsibility of which includes an extremely unstable section of the military-political "fault" - the western part of the Asia-Pacific region. Despite the extremely positive background of the meeting between President of the Russian Federation V. Putin and his South Korean counterpart Moon Jae In during the Eastern Economic Forum, as well as the “breakthrough” visit of the Russian leader to Japan to meet with Shinzo Abe, there is no illusion about the “warming” of relations, equivalent to strategic partnership, because we all well know that it is Tokyo and Seoul that are deploying on their territory more and more links of the American missile defense, reconnaissance unmanned aviationas well as the US Navy. And their goal is far from blocking North Korea alone from the sea and air. Close cooperation with these states is akin to “warming the snake on the chest”: any escalation scenario in the Far Eastern region (with the participation of the PRC, DPRK or Russia) will be accompanied by the transition of Kazakhstan and Japan to the United States. Against this background, for a more or less accurate predictive analysis, it is necessary to clearly study and compare the potentials of the diesel-electric components of the submarine fleets of the parties, taking into account the fact that the main boundary of the collisions will pass within the East China, Japan and Okhotsk seas.

Currently, the Pacific Fleet of the Russian Navy is armed with 7 ultra low-noise diesel-electric submarines Ave. 877 / M "Halibut" (B-445 "Saint Nicholas the Miracle", B-394 "Nurlat", B-464 "Ust-Kamchatsk" , B-494 "Ust-Bolsheretsk", B-190 "Krasnokamensk", B-345 "Mogocha" and B-187 "Komsomolsk-on-Amur"). All these submarines were built at the shipyard No. 199. Leninsky Komsomol (now PJSC Amur Shipbuilding Plant) in the period from 1988 to 1994, which causes a noticeable deterioration of the construction nodes. This can not have a serious effect on the acoustic visibility of submarines. 2 diesel generator 4DL-42М with a total power of 2000 kW (Ave. 877) or 30DG with a total power of 3000 kW (Ave 877М) are used as a power plant on submarines. For the movement of the submarines pr. 877 / M, 5500-strong propulsion motors PG-141 / 165, rotating 6-blade propellers, are used. These units allow you to accelerate the "Halibut" to 19 - 21 node in the underwater mode. Economical (“quiet”) stroke (at a speed of 3 knots.) Is provided by the 130-strong propulsion motor PG-142 / 166. The rowing engines are powered by 240 446 battery cells located in the 2 120 series. The six-bladed propellers of the “Halibus” have a reduced rotational speed (of the order of 250 rpm), which significantly reduces the acoustic visibility of the DEPL along with various vibration-absorbing materials and shock-absorbing platforms on which DG, the main rowing and economical electric motors are installed, as well as 2 backup electric motors total power 204 hp

Despite the excellent reliability and interchangeability of the electric motors of the power plant, transmitting torque to the propeller "Paltus", it has one significant drawback - the lack of anaerobic qualities. DL-42MX or 30DG diesel generators require regular (1 times in 3-4 days) surfacing to the surface to recharge the “446 product” battery cells by operating in the RDP mode. At this point, the submarine can be extremely easily detected with the help of side-mounted AFAR-radar AN / ZPY-3 MP-RTIP patrol aircraft MQ-4C "Triton" and AN / APY-10 anti-submarine aircraft P-8A "Poseidon". Moreover, it will be easy to track it on a snorkel rising above the surface and DG exhaust gases using the MX-20i multichannel turret optical-electronic complex (the basis of the Poseidon optical intelligence) capable of obtaining 1080 - 50 - 70p - a multiple increase of any part of the sea / ocean surface.

Consequently, in a limited maritime theater of operations (length of about 400 - 450 miles) with the enemy’s established antisubmarine defense, the “Halibus” can be considered non-nuclear super low-noise submarines of the “first days of war”. Literally for the first 3 days of underwater operation (before the first need to ascend) submarines must fulfill the whole range of assigned tasks, among which are both the fight against enemy’s underwater and surface assets, and the striking of strategic cruise missiles 3М14Т on coastal objects of the enemy. The realities of modern theater of war in the area of ​​the Sea of ​​Japan and the Sea of ​​Okhotsk drive the submarine component of our Pacific Fleet into a rigid framework, providing for long-term underwater watch without ascent to the surface to avoid detection of the enemy with anti-submarine weapons.

Multipurpose nuclear submarine cruisers of the Antey Pr. 949 / AM (K-186 Omsk, K-456 Tver and K-150 Tomsk) or torpedo-perc. 971 Pr. B, ”but their acoustic secrecy is much worse than that of the diesel-electric submarine and the confrontation with even more slow-moving Virginia can end fatally. Meanwhile, in addition to the submarine component of the US Navy present in the western part of the APR, the modern and actively developing navies of the Republic of Korea and Japan present a potential threat to the Russian Pacific Fleet. The first unpleasant moment is that by the number of diesel-electric submarines the fleets of these states are exactly 5 times higher than our Pacific Fleet (37 versus 7 submarines, respectively). The second, even more alarming signal is the presence of an air-independent energy installation in most of these submarines. For example, the naval forces of South Korea are armed with 9 anaerobic Son Won - II submarines built at the shipyard of the shipbuilding company Hyndai Heavy Industries (HHI). The “Son Won-II” class is a simplified export modification of the German Type 212A DPL. The main difference between South Korean designs and the Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) is the lack of a hull demagnetization process. In this regard, the Son Won-II submarines (the export name of the Type 214) can be detected using magnetic anomaly detectors located in the magnetic-transparent tail fairing of long-range anti-submarine aircraft.

But this does not negate the anaerobic qualities of the submarines of this class. They are equipped with an advanced air-independent power plant (AIP, Air-independent propulsion) on 9 electrochemical-type hydrogen fuel cell modules with a total power of 306 kW, which in the submerged mode (at the speed of the 3 node) are able to recharge 20 silver-zinc batteries for a day elements located in 288-x sections of the 2 element. The principle of operation of an electrochemical generator consists in the chemical reaction between oxygen and hydrogen coming from shock-resistant cylinders and steel tanks in the double-hull aft of the submarine. A high level of security with a simultaneously long period of operation of the ECG lies in the method of storage. Oxygen is cooled to a liquefied state with a temperature of -144 ° C, while hydrogen is present in the hydride form (in conjunction with metals). Also, batteries can be recharged in the standard diesel-electric mode, due to the operation of the diesel-generator set MTU183V16, represented by 396 diesel engines with a total power of 2 hp. The movement of the submarine is carried out thanks to the 8475-bladed propeller, rotated by one 7-strong electric motor "Permasyn" from the company "Siemens".


Anaerobic submarines of the South Korean Navy class "Son Won-II"


The submerged range with a speed of 4 knot is 2310 km using a hydrogen-oxygen electrochemical generator; for comparison: the 877 / M Pr. 740 / M, which are in service with the TDF DEPL, have a range of “electric” stroke 3 km, which is 65 times less! The Son Won-II submarines are compact enough: with a hull length of 6,3 m and a width of 1980 m, the underwater displacement is XNUMX tons. The case is covered with sound-absorbing materials, which allows to significantly reduce the detection range through the active mode of operation of the enemy's acoustic systems. All these technical moments, together with the small size of the submarine, give even greater secrecy than the "Platusov" / "Varshavyanok".

As for the weapons control complex, its role is assigned to the ISUS-90 combat information management system (CICS). The crew working terminals with this CICS receive generalized information from the combined CSU-90 hydroacoustic complex, represented by: FAS-3-1 on-board sonar, EFS DSQS-40DG active sonar station, Nasal active transceiver EFS DSQS-21DG, and there are no short numbers, and there are no short numbers, and there are no short numbers, and there are not enough, and there is not enough, and there are no short numbers, and there are no short numbers, and there are no short numbers, and there are no short numbers, and there are no short numbers, and there are no short numbers, and there are not enough, and there is not enough, and there is not enough, and there is not enough, and there are no shortcuts, and there are not enough, and there are not enough, and there are not enough, and there are not enough, and there are not enough, and there are not enough, and there will be not enough, and there will be not enough, and there will not be any of them; ) TAS-3, GA X-Intelligence Complex AN 5039A1, EFS / Allied Signal FMS-52 Mine Detection GAS, and Passive Distance Observation GAS PRS-3-15 As you can see, the range of sonar tools is one of the richest among them Lassa NNS. Consequently, the crew can clearly record the underwater tactical situation from the near and first far zone of acoustic illumination (5 - 35 km) to the second zone of acoustic illumination (70 - 140 km). “Halibuses” not only cannot boast such an abundance of sonar sensors, but also lose to the South Korean anaerobic Sonl “Son Won-II” according to the characteristics of the main GAK. In particular, the integrated sonar complex MGK-400M Rubicon-M (“Shark Teeth”) has limitations of the instrumental range, which allow escorting surface ships at a distance of only about 80 km and submarines - 20 km; "Rubicon-M" does not have passive on-board acoustic antenna arrays, which does not allow to determine the distance to the noise-emitting objects in the passive mode. And this is not a complete list of shortcomings ..

The ISUS-90 BIU also controls the mine-rocket and torpedo armament launched from 8 nasal 533-mm torpedo tubes. The main anti-submarine armament with the ability to defeat submarines and surface ships is the DM-2A3 / 4 torpedoes with a 28 or 50 km range. But it is also possible to use the more long-range version of the DM-2A4 "Sea Hake Mod 4 ER", which during ground tests reached a range of more than 140 km. Our advanced torpedo "Physicist-2" acts at a distance of a little more than 50 km: somehow alarming all this. Each Son Won-II is able to take on board from 12 to 16 "Si Heikov", a similar number of Sub-Harpoon anti-ship missiles. "Or 36 anchor min. From all the above it can be concluded: our "halibut" can oppose the enemy only a sudden antiship strike missiles 3M54E1 "Caliber-PL", equipped with 3-Makhov maneuverable combat stage, or at the worst possible moment to hit the coastal infrastructure of strategic modifications "Caliber" 3M14T from underwater provisions. In a duel situation, however, the 877M pr. Is unlikely to easily cope with 214 Type submarines.

One more class of potential enemy submarines in the areas of the Sea of ​​Japan and the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, without a doubt, can be considered the Japanese “Soryu”. From March 2009 to March 2017, the Japanese Naval Forces Self-Defense Force launched 8 Soryu-class submarines, which are the basis of Japan's super-low noise anaerobic submarine fleet, along with 6 Oyasio-class submarines equipped with diesel-powered air-independent self-contained power units. Before 2021, the 3 class submarines (“Sayryu”, No. 8125 and No. 8126) must also be commissioned. In comparison with other diesel-electric submarines / ДСЭПЛ, this class has a more impressive size and displacement: length 84 m, body width - 9,1 m underwater displacement - 4200 tons. Consequently, much more internal space is allocated for weapon compartments than in the “miniature” class “Son Won-II”. So, for 6 533-mm torpedo tubes, the placement of 30 torpedoes "Type 89", or a similar number of anti-ship missiles "Sub-Harpoon" is provided. Consequently, the number of anchor and bottom mines in the arsenal of a single submarine may be of the order of 35 units.


SS-508 "Sekiryu" Japanese anaerobic submarine, commissioned on 13 in March 2017 of the year


It is well known that UGM-84D2 “Sub-Harpoon” anti-ship missiles with 280 km range have subsonic flight speeds (of the order of 900 km / h) and a “poor” list of effective anti-aircraft maneuvers during the breakthrough of the enemy’s anti-aircraft defense systems (our KZRK “Kortik” -M "," Dagger "and C-300F" Fort "with a bang intercept such slow means of air attack), but in the case of the Pacific Fleet of Russia everything is very relative. Let's take a look at the surface composition of the Pacific Fleet: among the ships capable of ensuring proper missile defense of the order, there are missile cruisers of Varyag 1164 Ave. (one 6-channel ZRSK C-300 "Osa-MA" on 2 target channels ), the destroyer "Fast" Ave 2 (956-channel ZRSK M-6 "Hurricane"), 22 large anti-submarine ship Ave 3 "Delete" (in the amount of 1155 ADMS "Dagger" on 6 target channel) and 24 corvette ave. 1 (ADMS “Redut” on 20380 - 8 target channels). As a result, the situation is such that the entire main ship structure of the Pacific Fleet can simultaneously launch short-range, medium-range and long-range anti-aircraft missiles near 12, while the Soryu Japanese submarines are able to launch 50 X-guns on our Harpoons underwater start. But this is not all, because in the coming years, Japanese tactical aviation will be able to use hundreds of 8 flywheel anti-ship missiles XASM-160, capable of breaking through the enemy's incredible naval missile defense system. Closing your eyes to this problem is extremely difficult.

While our surface fleet continues to experience a shortage of air defense ships of the main classes, the total target canalization of the ESSM alone on 4 destroyers Akizuki reaches 48 - 60 simultaneously intercepted by the use of advanced multifunctional radar FCS-3A, and there are 4 Kongo and 2 XNUMX simultaneously. "Atago" with BIUS "Aegis"! Everything is absolutely not in our favor.

So, the Soryu class submarines make a good contribution to the formation of a powerful anti-ship and anti-submarine "shield" in the Sea of ​​Japan and the Sea of ​​Okhotsk. The Stirling quad propulsion system Kawasaki Kockums V4-275R has the same high air-independent performance as the 214 type electrochemical hydrogen-oxygen generator of submarines, so that the Japanese crews can supernaturally hunt our submarines for our NKX - 2 submarines of the week for our submarines to be supernaturally hunted by our NK 3 677 XNUMX XNUMX submarines. . For our same, the Pacific Fleet has long been a unique solution to this problem - the active replenishment of the upgraded non-nuclear submarines Ave XNUMX "Lada", equipped with a fundamentally new type VNEU, working on the principle of reforming diesel fuel to produce hydrogen.

Moreover, on this submarine, an additional “rocket banquet” was installed with UVPU of a mine type on 10 units of multipurpose rocket armament, which would raise at times the impact qualities of the non-nuclear submarine component of the Russian Navy. According to statements by the Deputy Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy, Viktor Bursuk, the 677 series of the project “will be very large,” which means that it should be enough to update all the fleets of Russia. However, currently only one submarine with the standard B-585 diesel engine "St. Petersburg" is in trial operation of the Northern Fleet of the Russian Navy, and the replacement of EI with air independent is still only in our dreams and at a certain stage of development in the walls of SPMBM "Malachite" and TsKBP MT "Rubin". As for the Pacific Fleet, by the year of 2020, it will receive two new Varshavyanka Pr. 636.3, which continue to give way to South Korean and Japanese submarines.

Information sources:
http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-737.html%5B/topic-211.html
http://bastion-karpenko.ru/212a/
http://bastion-karpenko.ru/214-typ/
http://bastion-karpenko.ru/soryu/
http://roe.ru/catalog/voenno-morskoy-flot/korabelnye-radioelektronnye-sistemy/mgk-400/
http://maxpark.com/community/547/content/2565780
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  1. Same lech
    Same lech 11 September 2017 06: 25
    +77
    Evgeny Damantsev, what do you want to drag RUSSIA into the next devastating arms race ... we already passed this ...
    Still, Russia is a continental country and the tasks of the fleet of RUSSIA are completely different than those of the Americans.
    1. Wild_grey_wolf
      Wild_grey_wolf 11 September 2017 06: 35
      +44
      Quote: The same Lech
      Evgeny Damantsev, what do you want to drag RUSSIA into the next devastating arms race ... we already passed this ...
      Still, Russia is a continental country and the tasks of the fleet of RUSSIA are completely different than those of the Americans.


      The author thinks on the scale of the invasion and conquest of foreign lands.
      American thoughts and standards. Believing that this is the only true move and there can be no other.
      1. Shurik70
        Shurik70 11 September 2017 12: 38
        +17
        It’s stupid to "join the race." The one with the most powerful industry will win here.
        The Pacific Fleet is needed to guarantee that the United States is covered with a carpeted nuclear strike.
        Well, even if not carpeted, but enough to discourage the United States from starting a nuclear war.
        And that's enough. We do not need any “races”.
        1. Inok10
          Inok10 11 September 2017 19: 58
          +6
          Quote: Wild_Grey_Wolf
          The author thinks on the scale of the invasion and conquest of foreign lands.
          American thoughts and standards. Believing that this is the only true move and there can be no other.

          ... not ... the author has an attack of "Panic attack" - Russian Pacific Fleet against the entire Asia-Pacific region ... laughing ... the only question is why he took into account the “coalition” against the Russian Pacific Fleet, South Korea and Japan and threw overboard such forces as the Chinese Navy, the Vietnamese Navy, the Indonesian Navy ... and still, where is the Australian Navy? ... his conclusions are also very controversial ... but where did the aircraft of the Russian Navy suddenly go? ... Tu-142M3M, Il-38N ... a, coastal anti-ship systems "Bastion" and "Ball" ... and fighter aircraft can be of great help in the fight against surface ships ... they are carriers of anti-ship missiles , even the Su-25SM drags the X-35 and not one ... a, Long-range aviation Tu-22M3 with anti-ship missiles X-32 4000 km / h, flight altitude 40 km., range 800-1000 km. with warhead TK-56 150 kt ... what will the author bring down? ... for SM-3 too low, for SM-6 too high ... in general ... put aside the panic ... Damantsev Eugene wish not to write on Friday night ... tongue
          Quote: Shurik70
          The Pacific Fleet is needed to guarantee that the United States is covered with a carpeted nuclear strike.
          Well, even if not carpeted, but enough to discourage the United States from starting a nuclear war.

          ... true and provide coastal protection for the removal of 1000-1500 km. ... that even with such a composition the Pacific Fleet is executed, including the heterogeneous means described above, and Strategic Aviation can be connected for a solution with X-101 and X-555 to defeat the enemy’s naval base ... hi
          1. Rushnairfors
            Rushnairfors 12 September 2017 17: 54
            +5
            Monk, how many Tu22m3 can “work” and didn’t you think about the interests of Pacific Fleet? Yes x32? And where did the su25 x35 come from? Only please an authoritative answer and not a link to non-fiction or Wikipedia. The real use of this missile from an airplane, where and when, which ShAP performed the task. And how many do we have at all on the SU25x, you know? What task can they fulfill in the event of hostilities? How many fighter regiments in the Far East are capable of covering UG in case of something? How many “living” il38 and tu142 and what is their equipment capable of? (in particular, IL38, not upgraded to the short story?). We have combat regiments from the Amur Region and to Kamchatka there are fewer than fingers on our hands, and if we still take into account serviceability ....... Only 3 garrisons are equipped with new materiel and not completely, not to mention the Tu22m3 in the Far East not for a long time.
            1. Inok10
              Inok10 12 September 2017 19: 21
              +3
              Quote: Rushnairfors
              Monk, how many Tu22m3 can “work” and didn’t you think about the interests of Pacific Fleet? Yes x32?

              ... as much as the General Staff decides ... all the more so much is not required, the TK-56 is a Special Warhead with a capacity of 150 kT ...
              Quote: Rushnairfors
              And where did the su25 x35 come from? Only please an authoritative answer and not a link to non-fiction or Wikipedia.

              ... look for the TU on the Su-25SM and find AKU-58 in the list, from those ... and I’ll add to you the X-35 carriers: Ka-27, Ka-29 are helicopter and Su-24M, Su-30SM, Su-35S ... regarding the Tu-142, look for the state contract for the modernization of Taganrog, just until 2020 everyone will be M3M ... with regards to the IL-38N, the same story, everything that will be on the wing with Novella ... the rest is not commenting on traditional snot tears ...
              1. Rushnairfors
                Rushnairfors 15 September 2017 07: 28
                +3
                The monk about su25- called the kashnik in Lipetsk, he confirmed- su25 DOES NOT WORK with AKP data. Regarding the Tu22m3 and x32, this AKP is not in service, we have converted 3 sides under it, one last year after an unsuccessful landing cannot be restored. The two remaining sides, even with YaBch, are not enough to strike at AUG or KUG. AE (10-12 airborne) is planned at the LTU in the nuclear version. I don’t know about the actual launch range of x32 missiles, I didn’t fly on these planes, but a simple Tu22m3 with a PNA radar “sees” a ship type target from a range of about 200km, plus TsU and necessary calculations, actually x22n can be started up with Dp = 130-150km. That is, when launching missiles, we are guaranteed to enter the AUG air defense zone, and given that the AKP is launched in the horizon with a roll of no more than 5 °, then even the PFP is not spinning normally. So that.
                Regarding anti-submarine aviation - in Kamchatka and in Primorye all 38th junk, without Novella, the plan for modernization is good, but the plan and fact are different things, I know for sure, observing how the modernization of our materiel is going on. Therefore, there will be a short story, there will be a conversation, we are talking about today. And all these plans and promises until the 20th year to the 25th year, I don’t take them, because you have to fight today if that. Any questions, ask, with respect!
        2. eklmn
          eklmn 11 September 2017 21: 09
          +2
          “... guaranteed to cover the United States with a carpeted nuclear strike.
          Well, if not carpet, but sufficient to discourage the United States from starting a nuclear war. "

             Your logic is even more militaristic than that of the author - first cover to discourage starting a war ...
              Choking on hate?
          1. Shurik70
            Shurik70 12 September 2017 14: 21
            +2
            A criminal will not commit a crime if he knows that retribution is inevitable.
            The US will not start a nuclear war if they know that they themselves will not survive.
            Although, of course, it is likely the pre-evacuation of the "elite" somewhere in Brazil, in a secret bunker. Say, let the "superfluous" each other destroy as much as possible, and our descendants will seize the purified planet.
            1. karabas-barabas
              karabas-barabas 14 September 2017 20: 23
              0
              The US / NATO and allies are much more powerful in conventional weapons, why should they launch a nuclear attack ??
    2. Uncle lee
      Uncle lee 11 September 2017 06: 59
      +38
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      the tasks of the fleet of RUSSIA are completely different
      The main task is to protect the coast, but there is nothing to protect!
      PS But in B. Stone such a shipyard was banged! For the construction of supply vessels for oil and gas workers! And how to protect these deposits? Although there is no need to protect them - the shareholders are our "partners", that is, ENEMIES!
      1. Same lech
        Same lech 11 September 2017 07: 08
        +17
        The main task is to protect the coast, but there is nothing to protect!


        In the General Staff of RUSSIA, you know better ... probably the strategy of a future war does not include active protection of the coast. what
        All the same, under any military task or order, the necessary resources of the state are calculated and the costs are very impressive.
        Remember what enormous money was invested in the construction of border fortifications in the west of the USSR before 1941, and all this went to dust and was not needed at the most difficult moment ...
        Wehrmacht's tank columns simply went around them ... and here. what
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 11 September 2017 09: 52
          +16
          So they wanted to build an ocean fleet ...
          The Baltic Fleet was locked up with mines and nets, the Black Sea lost its base in Sevastopol and was essentially bombed by German aircraft!
          Only the Northern Fleet had room for maneuver and acted to the best of its modest forces, but could not even catch the lonely "Admiral Scheer" in its rear waters!
          1. kuz363
            kuz363 11 September 2017 12: 13
            +6
            By the way. about Sevastopol. Declassified materials where it says. that around Sevastopol many sea mines were erected by their own. In order to prevent the German Navy from approaching. In fact, it turned out that in the abandoned passages between the mines, the ships were forced to slow down and were drowned by German aircraft. Often their own ships and were blown up by mines until the 50s. Not a single German or Italian ship fell into Soviet mines! And Admiral Oktyabrsky simply threw the remaining units to death and flew away by plane with his retinue to the Caucasus!
            1. Nikolay Fedorov
              Nikolay Fedorov 11 September 2017 18: 04
              +1
              Quote: kuz363
              ... In fact, it turned out that in the abandoned passages between the mines, the ships were forced to slow down and were drowned by German planes ....

              And if our mines weren’t set, then the ships would spar at the highest speeds, and no German planes would sink them !!! Did I understand your point correctly? laughing
              1. Dart2027
                Dart2027 11 September 2017 20: 33
                +2
                Quote: Nikolai Fedorov
                Did I understand your point correctly?

                Let's just say that forwarders to pass ships had to enable them to pass at sufficiently high speeds, which reduced the time that enemy aircraft could use to attack. Of course, this did not mean that there would be no loss from air raids at all, but they could be less.
              2. WapentakeLokki
                WapentakeLokki 11 September 2017 21: 40
                0
                If yes, yes, yes. You need to learn from mistakes and not step on the same rake (purely in Russian)
                1. karabas-barabas
                  karabas-barabas 14 September 2017 20: 36
                  0
                  Who are you? The people who supply those; who steps on a rake, or GSh who scatters them? hi
            2. Nikolay Fedorov
              Nikolay Fedorov 12 September 2017 15: 32
              0
              Quote: kuz363
              ... Often their own ships and were blown up by mines until the 50s ...

              Please provide information on numerous bombings of our ships on our mines in the peaceful post-war, right up to the 50s. Dates, names, first names, last names, please do not forget. laughing
          2. andj61
            andj61 11 September 2017 16: 56
            +4
            Quote: hohol95
            Only the Northern Fleet had room for maneuver and acted to the best of its modest forces, but could not even catch the lonely "Admiral Scheer" in its rear waters!

            In 1941, the Northern Fleet had 15 submarines, 8 destroyers, and 7 watchdogs (from mobilized civilian vessels). even if one imagines the meeting of the FULL fleet with the lone Admiral Scheer, then the balance would not be in favor of the fleet - unless, of course, this heavy cruiser was ambushed from submarines. So they didn’t catch the “Admiral Sheer,” but they tried to find it with the subsequent tip of the aircraft - and nothing more. Although in the Northern Fleet then there were only 116 aircraft of all types - from fighters to U-2. Given the giant water area, even to find a cruiser, the chances were minimal.
            Although he died from the action of aviation, not only ours, but the British - three hundred bombers for the cruiser under repair were fatal.
            1. hohol95
              hohol95 11 September 2017 17: 02
              +2
              All hope was for the bombing and torpedo forces of the Northern Fleet Air Force! This is the whole point! In the Baltic and the Black Sea, ships were idle! But the Northern Fleet was sorely lacking in ships!
        2. Reklastik
          Reklastik 11 September 2017 19: 36
          +1
          In the General Staff of RUSSIA know better
          Are you talking about the department of Gref-Ulyukaev-Oreshkin? laughing By this yes, by this all the bottom is seen new)))))
      2. Stas157
        Stas157 11 September 2017 07: 49
        +28
        . The Pacific Fleet of Russia "with a bang" is losing the arms race in the Asia-Pacific region.
        What an economy, such a fleet. What are the aircraft carriers? Our budget is scarce! Where is the money zing? It seems that this year an increase of 2,5% is promised, but in the past, there was a fall. Well, 2,5% is extremely small, with such an increase We will never catch up with the leading economies of the world. On the contrary, we will only lag behind. In China, an increase of 6% is already considered a crisis! For us, these 6% are the ceiling. Therefore, about the fleet - according to Senka and a hat.
        1. Sling cutter
          Sling cutter 11 September 2017 10: 36
          +16
          Quote: Stas157
          Our budget is scarce! Where is the money zing?

          The entire surplus has been withdrawn to offshore and western banks, and according to the most conservative estimates of mattresses, there are a trillion raccoons, it remains to wait a short time in January-February to publish who, how much and where are lying yes
        2. Comrade Glebov
          Comrade Glebov 11 September 2017 15: 37
          +6
          Quote: Stas157
          Therefore, about the fleet - according to Senka and a hat.

          It hurts, but true. Bringing us to the "free market" with its rules to the zugunder. Where are you, Comrade Stalin?
      3. killganoff
        killganoff 11 September 2017 10: 48
        +7
        Why defend against partners ???
        In the Kremlin, the proteges of Washington. Or do you really think that EBN in the receivers had the opportunity to appoint a real opponent of the Western world?
        1. marder7
          marder7 11 September 2017 19: 53
          +1
          Oh my God! another whiner "we are all bad! we all betrayed!" if Washington’s stasis was sitting in the Kremlin, now we would have it like in Hohland!
      4. ljuger
        ljuger 11 September 2017 11: 54
        +2
        "PARTNERS" AND "ENEMIES" CONCEPTS RELATIVE AND COMPLETELY INTERCHANGEABLE
      5. Adequate
        Adequate 11 September 2017 18: 30
        +1
        If even a small ship or submarine with calibers can cause irreparable damage to the enemy fleet. It’s worth weighing everything well. Which fleet do we need? General Staff must cope with this task
      6. Dart2027
        Dart2027 11 September 2017 20: 29
        0
        Quote: Uncle Lee
        For the construction of supply vessels for oil and gas workers

        And how do you know which ships will be built there.
    3. Finches
      Finches 11 September 2017 07: 45
      +19
      "Everything is gone, the plaster is removed, the client is leaving ..! Lelik ...!" laughing
      1. Stas157
        Stas157 11 September 2017 08: 05
        +21
        Quote: Finches
        "Everything is gone, the plaster is removed, the client is leaving ..! Lelik ...!" laughing

        Do you have better expectations from our economy? Please tell me when we catch up and overtake China, the West, America, in terms of economy? What do you think, by the time we have at least one aircraft carrier built, how many will China and the West have? What is your optimism built on? Tell me, maybe I didn’t see something?
        As a rule, the result of hatred and Uri patriotism is bitter disappointment.
        1. Serg65
          Serg65 11 September 2017 08: 16
          +23
          Quote: Stas157
          What do you think, by the time we have at least one aircraft carrier built, how many will China and the West have?

          I'm wildly sorry, why do you need aircraft carriers ???
          Quote: Stas157
          Please tell me when we catch up and overtake China, the West, America, in terms of economy?

          We will catch up and surpass China, the West and America when we invest in their opposition! The correct and proven way in the fight against competitors or you do not agree?
          1. Stas157
            Stas157 11 September 2017 08: 36
            +12
            Quote: Serg65
            I'm wildly sorry, why do you need aircraft carriers ???

            Really! You don’t need a fleet either.
            Quote: Serg65
            We will catch up and surpass China, the West and America when we invest in their opposition!

            You need to build your own economy and not look at others. After all, the USSR did not harm anyone, but developed. In the Soviet Union, GDP growth of 25% was! Under capitalism, this is hardly possible. And even more so in our monopolized, clan economy.
            1. Serg65
              Serg65 11 September 2017 08: 58
              +19
              Quote: Stas157
              Really! You don’t need a fleet either.

              laughing I beg of you! In your fleet without aircraft carriers and not a fleet already? So all the same, why do you need aircraft carriers?
              Quote: Stas157
              You need to build your own economy and not look at others

              So tell Putin how to build your economy, as I understand it, do you have a whole program on this?
              Quote: Stas157
              After all, the USSR did not harm anyone, but developed.

              And where is the USSR now? No, really, where is the country called the USSR ??? Do not tell me, with what heavy weapons did the West kill the USSR? One can argue about the economy of the USSR ad infinitum, all the more so the economy of the USSR in different historical segments is completely different. You can also argue about the development of the USSR Navy, and the role of the TAVKRs in the fate of the USSR Navy.
              What do you want to argue about?
              1. Stas157
                Stas157 11 September 2017 09: 52
                +15
                You have so many questions for me! You really don't know, and want answers? Or do you want to baffle me?)) The answers to all your questions are elementary.
                Quote: Serg65
                In your fleet without aircraft carriers and not a fleet already? So all the same, why do you need aircraft carriers?

                Then tell me, since the answer to this question is not obvious to you, if there were enough money in Russia, would we build these notorious aircraft carriers? Moreover, plans and projects are available. And yet, tell me, are there any major maritime powers in the world without aircraft carriers?
                Quote: Serg65
                So tell Putin how to build your economy, as I understand it, do you have a whole program on this?

                So Putin himself is in the know! The program is simple. Solve weaknesses. Monopolized, clan economy. Corruption. Extreme gap between rich and poor. Building roads and communications in our vast country. Import substitution. Free medicine and education. Solve the problem of 30 million below the poverty line. Raise the standard of living to the advanced Western countries ... You can list for a long time! But, you didn’t ask for this to hear the answer. Is not it?
                I’ll add from myself. The best development option in Russia is the building of socialism. But the liberal elite and Putin will never agree to this.
                Quote: Serg65
                Do not tell me, with what heavy weapons did the West kill the USSR?

                So it was not the West that killed, but the top betrayed. We destroyed the USSR ourselves, with our own hands.
                Quote: Serg65
                What do you want to argue about?
                Yes, I do not want to argue with you. You are attacking me with questions. It would not be polite to leave you unanswered.))
                1. Serg65
                  Serg65 11 September 2017 10: 49
                  +8
                  Quote: Stas157
                  You really don't know, and want answers?

                  Naturally, I want to hear your answers, besides your answers, in your opinion, are elementary!
                  Quote: Stas157
                  Then tell me, since the answer to this question is not obvious to you, if there were enough money in Russia, would we build these notorious aircraft carriers?

                  The answer depends on a few ifs:
                  If the follower and student D.F. Ustinova then we will not build.
                  If the RF Ministry of Defense does not follow up on the military-industrial complex and a group of military-industrial complex lobbyists does not appear in the ranks of the Ministry of Defense, we will not.
                  What do my answers depend on? From the history of the creation of the USSR ocean fleet!
                  Passion for the construction of TAVKRs and TAKRs led to the fact that by the 90 year of the last century the USSR Navy was left virtually without destroyers and attack missile cruisers!
                  Quote: Stas157
                  tell me, are there any major maritime powers in the world without aircraft carriers?

                  There are only five such powers, and all of them are leading the aggressive development of their Navy; moreover, they mostly need aircraft carriers to protect their transport arteries!
                  Quote: Stas157
                  The program is simple

                  The program is really simple, but for its implementation it is necessary to completely abandon the construction of the Armed Forces, their foreign policy interests, and this refusal is a stick about the spirit of the ends! Having abandoned the defense of our state and turning a blind eye to foreign policy interests, we will be forced to cave in under the West for the peaceful development of our economy, and such a cave in has not led to the development of the domestic economy, alas!
                  Quote: Stas157
                  The best development option in Russia is building socialism

                  smile Socialism is different for socialism, here in Sweden and Norway essentially socialism too! I am not against socialism!
                  Quote: Stas157
                  So it was not the West that killed, but the top betrayed. USSR

                  If not the West killed, then to whom the top sold ????
                  thank you for your responses hi
                  1. Stas157
                    Stas157 11 September 2017 12: 00
                    +5
                    Quote: Serg65
                    Passion for the construction of TAVKRs and TAKRs led to the fact that by the 90 year of the last century the USSR Navy was left virtually without destroyers and attack missile cruisers!

                    I do not agree. The United States and other Western countries have this and that. There is no need to contrast one another. It all depends on how much the economy can afford all this construction. In the USSR, in addition to the four aircraft carriers built, there were cruisers such as Orlan and Glory. Destroyers Sarych. Russia has not yet built a single ship more than a frigate. The reason is the banal lack of money.
                    Quote: Serg65
                    Socialism is different for socialism, here in Sweden and Norway essentially socialism too! I am not against socialism!

                    I agree. But our oligarchs will never even go to the Swedish version of socialism, because at the same time it is necessary to share. The gap between the rich and the poor must be sharply reduced! Does the rich need this? It’s better to take everything for yourself, judging because they are adding their billions even in a crisis.
                    Quote: Serg65
                    If the West did not kill, then to whom the top sold?

                    There was no direct sale. All the same, I do not think that Gorbachev and Yeltsin sold the country directly for money. Just the tip of us has decomposed and degraded. And the country was literally surrendered. Gorbachev for the sake of dubious fame, remember how the Western world applauded him this dove of peace! And the alcoholic Yeltsin for the sake of power.
                    1. Serg65
                      Serg65 11 September 2017 13: 18
                      +4
                      Quote: Stas157
                      In the USSR, in addition to the four aircraft carriers built, there were cruisers such as Orlan and Glory. Destroyers Sarych

                      TAVKROV was 5. In the 80's, the fleet was suffocated by the lack of modern destroyers and strike cruisers; for the price of one Orlan, it was possible to build 5 Atlantes and a dozen Sarychs. Only the Black Sea Fleet needed 6 Atlantes and 12 Sarychy! The same picture was also shown for TAVKRs, they were handed over to the fleet, and the fleet did not know what to do with them, as an anti-submarine cruiser was redundant, as an aircraft carrier - no, but money, resources and time were spent !!!!
                      Quote: Stas157
                      There was no direct sale.

                      what And the Gorbachev Foundation, I’m sorry, from what income is the house in Bavaria inherited?
                      Quote: Stas157
                      And the alcoholic Yeltsin for the sake of power.

                      "But I, I, I’m all in a family!" bully
                      1. Alexey RA
                        Alexey RA 11 September 2017 14: 44
                        +5
                        Quote: Serg65
                        In the 80s, the fleet was suffocated by the lack of modern destroyers and strike cruisers; for the price of one Orlan, 5 Atlantes and a dozen Sarychs could be built.

                        There is one subtle point - the pace of construction of ships in the USSR was determined by no means just money. You remember the history of the appearance of KTU at Sarych. Or the saga of "daggers" at 1155. So you need to look not at the price of "Orlan", but at the production of power plants and missile weapons.

                        And most importantly - what next do these destroyers and strike cruisers do? Say, in the event of the beginning of the usual phase of the war? what
                        Heroically die, unable to provide for their air defense systems sane anti-aircraft missile defense from the adversary’s anti-ship missiles, which they will bullet due to the radio horizon and who will go to our ships for PMV?
                        Or try to pinpoint the adversary’s AUG with their long-range anti-ship missiles, without having a sane TsU for them? Because the entire range of our RKR is tied to airplanes and RC helicopters. who live poorly in the AUG air defense zone, but not for long.
                        According to the mind, it was necessary to build 1144 or 1153 instead of 1160. But for this we need a second "slipway 0" in St. Petersburg.
                        Quote: Serg65
                        The same picture was also shown for TAVKRs, they were handed over to the fleet, and the fleet did not know what to do with them, as an anti-submarine cruiser was redundant, as an aircraft carrier - no, but money, resources and time were spent !!!!

                        Say thanks to comrades Ustinov and Amelko. Which, in a voluntaristic manner, did not push for the fleet what the Navy needed and the usefulness of which was proved by the experience of other fleets, but another Kurchevshchina-Bekaurovshchina, asymmetric answer adversary. Which as a result turned into wasted money - a cross between a pre-armed man armed with "attack mast defense", with a missile cruiser armed like four times smaller" Glory. "
                2. Airman
                  Airman 11 September 2017 10: 59
                  +2
                  I agree with you on everything, except for one thing: we do not need aircraft carrier groups, because this is an attack weapon, but why do not we attack. We need to save our own. There, in the early 90's, how much territory acquired by the ancestral pros-rally!
                  1. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA 11 September 2017 15: 28
                    +6
                    Quote: Povshnik
                    I agree with you on everything, except for one thing: we do not need aircraft carrier groups, because these are weapons of attack, but we don’t need to attack.

                    It was for defense that our admirals from the 50s demanded AB. For their AB were the only way to ensure the air defense of our ship groups, even when working on defense at the borders. Coastal aviation either did not have time to approach, or demanded the construction of a prohibitive number of airfields (and based on them the corresponding number of air regiments).
                    Floating airdromes could respond quickly to changes in the configuration and strength of the opposing group - they could be moved to tactically advantageous positions and massaged. That is, in comparison with stationary ones, they were required many times less.
                3. raw174
                  raw174 11 September 2017 14: 57
                  +3
                  Quote: Stas157
                  Then tell me, since the answer to this question is not obvious to you, if there were enough money in Russia, would we build these notorious aircraft carriers? Moreover, plans and projects are available. And yet, tell me, are there any major maritime powers in the world without aircraft carriers?

                  I apologize for wedging. In economics, yes, we are not in the best position, it’s difficult and all that, but I don’t agree with you in the Navy, the Russian Federation does not need aircraft carriers, because this is an attack weapon, it depends on the development strategy of the Armed Forces as a whole. We have a defensive strategy, therefore we do not need a powerful offensive weapon, we need a deterrent weapon, i.e. VKS. In general, in my opinion, Russia is more likely to be at war with aliens than with the USA. War is possible only when the United States finds a way to block our strategic missile forces with a 150% probability. But even to imagine a purely hypothetical attack from the United States, you don’t think that they will triumph with a blow from the sea, well, you can clear the coastline, but not 1000 kilometers in depth ... But with the help of sea landing you can conquer the bridgehead, but to advance deep into the country a more powerful group of ground forces is needed ... The attack on the Russian Federation from the west, from Europe, as before, is most likely ... but I repeat, this is hypothetically, there will be no big war, only local conflicts. Even a blow to North Korea, from the United States, is practically impossible.
              2. Sling cutter
                Sling cutter 11 September 2017 10: 24
                +12
                Quote: Serg65
                Do not tell me, with what heavy weapons did the West kill the USSR?

                People people
                If there is a devil in the world, then he is not a goat-legged stag, but he is a dragon with three heads, and these heads are - cowardice, greed, betrayal. And if one bites a person, then the other two will eat him to the ground. (C) "Era of Mercy"
            2. north
              north 11 September 2017 11: 25
              +4
              And how many of these 25% of home registrations were taken away, forgotten already, this is worse than theft, money for goods paid, but no goods. I came to the store with that kind of money, the shelves were empty, the goods were on paper, and not on store shelves (exaggerated).
              1. marder7
                marder7 11 September 2017 20: 00
                +1
                what do you mean? wanted to buy a destroyer? bully
          2. seos
            seos 11 September 2017 09: 16
            +2
            An aircraft carrier is a true "leader of the fleet", an air wing is capable of detecting an enemy fleet at giant distances and sinking it. Who has an aircraft carrier is right!
            A helicopter carrier can replace an aircraft carrier, it is easier to use but the range of the wing is less. The helicopter carrier is cheaper and its operating costs are lower.
            We have created unique deck-mounted tilt helicopters, but there is not a single helicopter carrier - this is the problem.
            None of our design bureaus can create an inexpensive helicopter carrier project, they only get monsters at a cost of 2 billion apiece ... here the government does not build them ...
            1. Serg65
              Serg65 11 September 2017 11: 20
              +7
              Quote: seos
              Aircraft carrier is a true "leader of the fleet", an aircraft wing is capable of detecting an enemy fleet at gigantic distances

              A space satellite can not only detect an enemy fleet at a gigantic distance, but also record the exit of this fleet from its bases! Maybe someone has spy satellites and that is right?
              1. seos
                seos 11 September 2017 11: 57
                +2
                If global kneading begins, all satellites will be lowered to the ground within 24 hours ...
                We have so many ways to launch satellites and systems ... our enemies have the same methods ...
                1. Serg65
                  Serg65 11 September 2017 12: 00
                  +2
                  Quote: seos
                  If global kneading begins, all satellites will be lowered to the ground within 24 hours ...

                  laughing If the satellites are lowered to the ground, then the missiles should be immediately thrown overboard and the old proven artillery battle will begin, and then the grandmother said for two wink
                2. Setrac
                  Setrac 11 September 2017 15: 42
                  0
                  Quote: seos
                  If global kneading begins, all satellites will be lowered to the ground within 24 hours ...

                  If global kneading begins - the fleet and cruise missiles will not be needed at all, the Strategic Missile Forces will decide everything, the surface fleet - a weapon of local war - is essentially a relic of the Second World War.
                  1. seos
                    seos 13 September 2017 13: 18
                    0
                    Russian high-precision weapons have a satellite guidance system of secondary importance, just the accuracy of the missiles will decrease ... Well, free-falling bombs with satellite guidance will fail ....
            2. north
              north 11 September 2017 11: 34
              0
              An aircraft carrier is an offensive weapon. And it’s a pity to lose such a miracle. Of course, when the means are not limited, from the word at all, you can have such luxury. And if the means are tight, you can fight off the “mosquito” fleet, with the same calibers. As in The Japanese war, the Japanese with their torpedo boats, were smashed by Russian battleships. A bunch of ants, an elephant will fill up.
              1. seos
                seos 11 September 2017 12: 00
                +2
                Guns and torpedoes used to decide ... these days have passed ... the mosquito fleet will not be able to detect the enemy first and will receive a massive missile strike.
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 11 September 2017 15: 43
                  0
                  Quote: seos
                  Guns and torpedoes used to decide ... these days have passed ... the mosquito fleet will not be able to detect the enemy first and will receive a massive missile strike.

                  You are absolutely wrong, maybe on your shores.
                2. marder7
                  marder7 11 September 2017 20: 04
                  +1
                  Guns and torpedoes used to decide ... these days have passed ... the mosquito fleet will not be able to detect the enemy first and will receive a massive missile strike.

                  this is precisely what the mosquito fleet is doing — it inflicts massive missile strikes and does this regularly over the past year.
            3. raw174
              raw174 11 September 2017 15: 02
              +4
              Quote: seos
              An aircraft carrier is a true "leader of the fleet", an air wing is capable of detecting an enemy fleet at giant distances and sinking it. Who has an aircraft carrier is right!

              NO! Who has an aircraft carrier is the AGGRESSOR! Its air wing is practically powerless against coastal defense (in comparable classes and years of arming) and the air wing of the coast. In the battle fleet-coast, the coast will come out victorious, again, if it is not the coast of a third world country with archers on the walls of the bastions ...
          3. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 11 September 2017 11: 26
            +9
            Quote: Serg65
            I'm wildly sorry, why do you need aircraft carriers ???

            What do you mean why? To dictate your adamant will to the rest of the world community. © smile
            Seriously, now the Pacific Fleet (and the rest of the fleets) need not think about AB, but about minesweepers. Because now even a Virginia pair can calmly neutralize our SSBNs in Vilyuchinsk - by firing (directly from neutral waters) self-transporting mines on approaches to the base.
            1. Serg65
              Serg65 11 September 2017 11: 39
              +6
              hi Welcome Alex!
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Seriously, now the Pacific Fleet (and the rest of the fleets) need not think about AB, but about minesweepers. Because now even a Virginia pair can calmly neutralize our SSBNs in Vilyuchinsk - by firing (directly from neutral waters) self-transporting mines on approaches to the base.

              I agree, there must be at least a hundred minesweepers, because mines can be put not only near Avacha Bay, but also at the mouth of the Amur River, in the Tatar Strait, and crossing the state border is no longer a daunting task.
          4. karabas-barabas
            karabas-barabas 14 September 2017 20: 50
            0
            Quote: Serg65
            We will catch up and surpass China, the West and America when we invest in their opposition! The correct and proven way in the fight against competitors or you do not agree?

            Stupid had not heard anything .., call.
            1. Serg65
              Serg65 15 September 2017 06: 11
              +2
              Quote: karabas-barabas
              Stupid had not heard anything .., call.

              laughing What is there to be afraid of in Sweden?
              Ancient Chinese wisdom says:
              "NO SUN!", Which means:
              "Be serene like a lotus flower at the foot of the temple of truth."
        2. Alena767
          Alena767 11 September 2017 09: 15
          +6
          Indeed, how to become richer than a swindler and a burglar on a global scale (sga)? Rob and take this robber. How can you try to overtake a swindler? And the public debt is already over 20 trillion. and printing unsecured green candy wrappers how to get ahead of them?
          The volume of industrial production at PPP of the USA is 3860bn. RF 1340bn. China 9082. Per capita, respectively 11825, 9351, 6542. Without financial manipulation and services
          1. seos
            seos 11 September 2017 12: 01
            0
            The fact of the matter is that the enemy is already within us ....
        3. Setrac
          Setrac 11 September 2017 15: 39
          0
          Quote: Stas157
          Please tell me when we catch up and overtake China, the West, America, in terms of economy?

          When we give birth to Russians no less.
        4. Finches
          Finches 11 September 2017 20: 26
          +1
          Stas157

          After the 90s - I have a current situation, even under the conditions of international sanctions, it causes optimism! If you want to return to the times when you did not pay your salary for years - then answer me the question - who are you for?
    4. seos
      seos 11 September 2017 09: 03
      +16
      1) The Pacific Fleet is rather weak, moreover, it is spread over different ports and is technically very outdated ...
      2) Russia is protected not by the fleet (secondary element), but by nuclear weapons and aviation (primary elements)
      3) Thanks to our powerful economy and great economists, we don’t have money for the army .. and we have to save on everything.
      4) There is no clear doctrine for the development of the fleet, admirals agree to any ships if they appear .... they will offer whoremen - all admirals will yell that these are very useful ships and the fleet needs them ....
      Our command needs to create clear plans for the development of the army and navy, to procure and develop effective equipment - now this is not done .... All departments are trying to suck out as much money as possible from the budget for any often unnecessary means ...
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 11 September 2017 13: 18
        +6
        Quote: seos
        2) Russia is protected not by the fleet (secondary element), but by nuclear weapons and aviation (primary elements)

        Ahem ... hesitate to ask - and the SSBNs relate to nuclear weapons or to aviation? wink
        The Navy is the second largest Nuclear component of the "nuclear triad."
        Therefore, the fleet will still have to build. But its main task at this stage should be the defense of the SSBN bases and approaches to them, the SSBN position areas and the transition routes to these areas.
    5. NEXUS
      NEXUS 11 September 2017 10: 08
      +4
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      Evgeny Damantsev, what do you want to drag RUSSIA into yet another devastating arms race ...

      Whether you want to admit it or not, but the arms race is on and we are participating in it too. New weapons development, export, purchase by our Defense Ministry of the new for our army and navy, modernization of the old, etc. ... is this not an arms race? Asymmetric answers are also answers that do not contradict this very arms race. Another question is that we do not make ourselves monkeyy and do not try to keep up with the United States, as the Union did, where it overtaxed.
      1. Serg65
        Serg65 11 September 2017 11: 23
        +5
        Quote: NEXUS
        Another question is that we do not make ourselves monkeyy and do not try to keep up with the United States, as the Union did, where it overtaxed.

        good I completely agree!!! Desire Schaub was yak with them, and ruined us!
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 11 September 2017 14: 55
          +4
          Quote: Serg65
          I completely agree!!! Desire Schaub was yak with them, and ruined us!

          The desire "shaob yak with them" is nothing else. But if there was a desire to answer asymmetrically, “anyhow they’re not like them” - then, in general, write is gone. The fleet wants AB, several types of AB were designed for the fleet - MO says no, get TAVKR with KVVP. One TAVKR, second, third, fourth, in the fifth and sixth fleet still succeeds in convincing the MO that we need normal airplanes (from the experience of the first four), and the seventh ... seventh is a slightly redesigned atomic AB project, which was proposed in 70- x and was indignantly rejected. The result - plus 20 years of lag (if the USSR had survived) and actually thrown out people's money. went to the construction of 1143.1-1143.4. smile
          And the Union was torn because it was very fond of building various military glands, traditionally scoring on issues of basing and maintenance. As a result, some ships were written off directly at the exit from the repair plants - because the turn for their repair came at the same time as the decommissioning time.
          1. Serg65
            Serg65 11 September 2017 14: 59
            +2
            Quote: Alexey RA
            As a result, some ships were written off directly at the exit from the repair plants - because the turn for their repair came at the same time as the decommissioning time.

            True truth, my friend! The same Kutuzov was under repair and modernization for several years, after leaving the repair a year later he stood in reserve, although the 5-I OpESk had indiscreet views on him.
      2. seos
        seos 11 September 2017 12: 08
        0
        Well, with this interpretation, there is also a way out ... you just need to develop commercially successful military directions ... and the army will feed the country, and not vice versa ...
        For example: submarines are quite expensive goods ... they all want to buy them, but not everyone can afford it .... you can develop and put into production inexpensive submarines of small sizes (such as Scandinavian ones). We need the same submarines, we have many reservoirs in which even the "Vashravyanka" is crowded ...
        Tanks are now well sold out ... We must develop unmanned means for them there is a demand. etc.
    6. antivirus
      antivirus 11 September 2017 10: 21
      +2
      For 25 or even 30 years we have been living in the conditions of a “sanitary cordon” in the west- in Europe.
      What could be different in Asia?
      we failed in the 30s of the 20th century.
      teach history-- "Clouds walk gloomily at the border ..." and Karatsup.
      we can and the whole of the East, to Baikal "peacefully" transfer to the trust, for 199 years.
      there would be no discussion of increasing birth rates within the borders of the former Grand Prince of Moscow (15th century) and the relocation of "sovereigns" to the East
    7. igorj 51
      igorj 51 11 September 2017 12: 17
      +1
      Evgeny Damantsev, what do you want to drag RUSSIA into the next devastating arms race ... we already passed this ...

      And what do you want to turn a blind eye to all those shortcomings that Damantsev described and at the same time continue to believe that your Pacific Fleet is the very best .. And on occasion, of course, heaps up everything and everything to Americans, Japanese, South Koreans combined ..? Is it too expensive to pay if something is so careless .. And for greed, if you feel sorry for the money in your fleet, then you have to pay something much more expensive and valuable .. Napoleon Bonaparte also said: “People who don’t want to feed his army, will feed someone else's ".. well, so in relation to the fleet it is justified in the same way. And do not justify the fact that supposedly Russia is a continental power, and therefore it does not need a strong fleet ... That's something like that.
    8. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 11 September 2017 12: 17
      +7
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      Still, Russia is a continental country and the tasks of the fleet of RUSSIA are completely different than those of the Americans.

      I didn’t want to get into fruitless discussions ... But I’ll say a few words.
      1. At the main naval parade 2017 in St. Petersburg, the Supreme clearly identified Russia as a great naval power. Who does not agree with this - please contact the President of the Russian Federation for clarification.
      2. No need to prepare for past wars! The era of GZO with the Central Administration from Cosmos, cyber and drones comes .... Therefore, the forms of maintaining the database will change.
      3. You cannot be strong everywhere. One must be strong at critical points where the "success of a hopeless cause!"
      4. The main attention in the 2018-2025 GPV is nevertheless given to the strategic nuclear forces, including the strategic nuclear forces. And general forces are being built as far as possible ...
      5. The author against us gathered in the APR all: the USA, Kazakhstan, Japan ... But about the PRC, the DPRK somehow forgot ... And if the Pacific Fleet does not climb into this mess at all, then what? DF-21D Won't Stoke AVM Striped?
      6. The future of the fleet is in its balance. Therefore, both UDC and AVM with EMN will be, but only when the problem with MSNS and NMD is solved.
      So, "do not give in to panic, in an orderly escape!" Or in other words: the situation is unpleasant, but not hopeless, as presented by the author. Although it must be admitted that the problem is raised correctly. The region is declared a zone of accelerated development. This will fully affect the Pacific Fleet.
      IMHO.
    9. RASKAT
      RASKAT 11 September 2017 13: 21
      +4
      The author is clearly cunning, forgetting that boats for the Pacific Fleet are still under construction, by the twentieth year, or so, we will have 5 deeply modernized boats 971 pr, 5 boats 949A, 3 boats 885M and about 13 boats 887 and 636.3 projects. This amount is enough to drown half of the ships of the Asia-Pacific region. And this is only a submarine fleet, excluding our surface fleet and naval aviation.
      1. Grandfather
        Grandfather 11 September 2017 13: 46
        +2
        Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
        I didn’t want to get into fruitless discussions ... But I’ll say a few words.

        I didn’t want to get into this canoe that I’ve inflated ... but ... KAA’s REDUCE comment moved ... REDAIL is right, everything needs to be done sequentially, rushing to lose, a lot has been destroyed, from scratch we start, if not worse, they steal, yes they’ll plant ... the consequences of the 90s, they will go around for a long time, the AUG is not yet within the means, the mosquito fleet is apparently an interim solution for the time being, small ships will not be superfluous afterwards, the country is big with us. but so far. submariners, this is our chance to "survive", I do not pour water on the mill "BOIL" and "RUDOLFA", I just say what I think. what do you say, sub-melts? drinks
        1. Boa kaa
          Boa kaa 12 September 2017 16: 42
          +2
          Quote: Dead Day
          what do you say, sub-melts?

          There are two sides to this issue: Carriers and weapons; it is they who make up the weapons system together with the crews.
          By carriers (AVM, KR, EM, Fr, Krv) we are inferior to the enemy. For weapons - no. Especially with the advent of Zircons a huge step forward will be made. The way out of the imbalance is underwater platforms, as the most promising, less expensive, secretive, etc. If 855M is armed with zircon, then this will be a very dangerous weapon system. But the question arises from the command center for over-the-horizon ranges, ensuring the combat stability of the SSGN from the enemy’s AV PLO and much more ...
          So, there is only one way out - the Fleet balanced by types of units and types of forces.
          Yours faithfully, hi
    10. Juborg
      Juborg 11 September 2017 15: 29
      +2
      Evgeny Damantsev is either a dreamer or provocateur; no other thoughts come to his mind. It is time to learn to measure their desires with real opportunities. The article, its essence at the level of the school essay, where the troubled mind of the scribbler went into a rage. You need my friend to the "Napoleons". laughing hi
    11. Comrade Glebov
      Comrade Glebov 11 September 2017 15: 34
      +2
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      Evgeny Damantsev, what do you want to drag RUSSIA into the next devastating arms race ... we already passed this ...

      There is one ancient, but classical, immortal constant for any state that claims to be truly independent: "si vis pacem para bellum". If you want peace, get ready for war. They attack those who are rich (in resources, land, etc.), but less powerful than the alleged aggressor. Russia is a rich country, despite the fact that the population, to be honest, does not live very mildly. And this means that as enemies and invaders went into our lands before, they will continue to do so. Just give the weakness, and then wait for the new Genghis Khan-Napoleon-Hitlers to visit you. The author is right when he points out that in an important area we are losing a lot. Let's hope that those who are formally responsible for our security not only realize this, but also prepare measures (rather than half measures) to solve this problem.
    12. Litvinov
      Litvinov 11 September 2017 18: 23
      +2
      I totally agree! Russia does not need to frighten the rebel colonies with an aircraft carrier fleet. For self-defense, it is enough to have the means to inflict unacceptable damage to the enemy. But the Russian Federation has such funds.
    13. nycsson
      nycsson 11 September 2017 20: 40
      +1
      I don’t even know how to call you. I would write, but banned. Your bleeding is designed for stupid sheep. Like, we don’t need a strong fleet. am
    14. nickname7
      nickname7 13 September 2017 08: 13
      0
      But of course, it’s bad to go to extremes, but a small fleet backward in technology is bad and a two-fold superiority of the fleet is also bad, you need a middle ground - a small but superior or equal technology fleet.
  2. aszzz888
    aszzz888 11 September 2017 07: 02
    0
    While the two leading US shipyards, Bath Iron Works (Maine) and Ingalls Shipbuilding (located in Mississippi and owned by the Northrop Grumman Ship Systems division), almost every quarter or half year they lower the new “ Aegis "is the destroyer of the" Arleigh Burke Flight III "class missile control, n

    ... it is not very correct and correct to compare our defense budget and the meritikos ...
    1. Stas157
      Stas157 11 September 2017 08: 20
      +7
      Quote: aszzz888
      it’s not very correct and correct to compare our defense budget, and mericatos ...

      If we want to give up, then yes. And if we want to compete, confront, respond to challenges, speak on an equal footing, and be independent, then comparing it is simply critical.
      1. Grandfather
        Grandfather 11 September 2017 13: 52
        +3
        Quote: Stas157
        Quote: aszzz888
        it’s not very correct and correct to compare our defense budget, and mericatos ...

        If we want to give up, then yes. And if we want to compete, confront, respond to challenges, speak on an equal footing, and be independent, then comparing it is simply critical.

        would like to give up, would give up in the 90s ... but the sense of self-preservation apparently prevailed ... everything is strange in this world ... the outback lives out of politics, everything turns out in Moscow, a couple of thousand came out, they decided how to live the whole country, and dispersed ... not a damn thing to themselves, "revolution" .... but everyone dissolves .... the remaining millions ... democracy .....
        1. Stas157
          Stas157 11 September 2017 17: 39
          +3
          Quote: Dead Day
          ..deep lives outside of politics it turns out, everything is decided in Moscow, it turned out a couple of thousand, they decided how to live the whole country, and dispersed ... not a damn thing to itself, "revolution" .... but everyone dissolves ....

          That's for sure! About the global changes in the country, the revolution, the whole country learns on television. So in Ukraine it happened exactly the same with Maidan.
  3. Nix1986
    Nix1986 11 September 2017 07: 07
    +4
    Someone in childhood obviously didn’t play enough in soldiers. And where to get the money to create such a fleet? And besides the fleet, the creation and maintenance of the basing and disposal infrastructure, the creation of universities, because we do not release officers in such numbers, and all this for the same money, if not more than creating the fleet itself.
    1. seos
      seos 11 September 2017 09: 17
      +4
      If you put things in order in the country, then the money will appear ...
      1. Nix1986
        Nix1986 11 September 2017 09: 54
        +2
        If you put things in order in the country, then only Galina Mikhailovna will remain of the officials from window No. 8 of the Federal Tax Service No. 24.
      2. Setrac
        Setrac 11 September 2017 15: 48
        0
        Quote: seos
        If you put things in order in the country, then the money will appear ...

        Do not put things in order, but one person cannot do as much as ten. Our defeat is not inherent in industry and economics, but in maternity hospitals, in the selfishness of our people who do not want to give birth to children.
  4. Russian jacket
    Russian jacket 11 September 2017 07: 08
    +3
    Everything is gone, chief .... The author's panic cry ... hi
    1. seos
      seos 11 September 2017 09: 18
      +1
      Everything described is true .... only here is the meaning of this article in one sentence could be accommodated.
  5. VadimSt
    VadimSt 11 September 2017 07: 23
    +6
    It’s hard to understand the authors who constantly stir up passions! The analysis of articles from open sources, I don’t know how professional, is one thing, it’s another thing to draw a certain, critical “line” and declare - everything is gone.
    Wherever you look, the critical statements of analysts and strategists are all around - everything is wrong, everything is in ruin, all thieves are around, democracy is canceled, there are no technologies, intellectuals have fled, the working class has died out, industry has collapsed, instead of roads there is a rut, and so on. The question arises: - "How specifically, these critical assessments contribute to the development and well-being of the country, or is it just the popularization of your own name?
    One side is to discuss problems, the other is to try to criticize everything and everyone!
    1. Monarchist
      Monarchist 11 September 2017 09: 01
      +2
      To you +! Correctly noticed: some have similar criticism. This is some kind of masochism or worse: conscious bullying — don’t even think about competing with the mattress.
    2. seos
      seos 11 September 2017 09: 30
      +13
      Because any thinking person sees what is happening in the country ...
      In the Far East, for example, Primorsky Krai - for 10 years the region’s protege Moscow criminal authority Darkin ruled the region, the region has been completely looted, law enforcement agencies do not work, the laws of the Russian Federation do not apply in the courts (court decisions are passed on the basis of decisions and are confirmed in higher instances), prosecution tries .. sends and does not accept applications, corruption flourishes ... People flee en masse from the region to more prosperous areas of the country.
      In the fleet - it has rotted .... most of the ships are not combat ready .. the air defense of the region is destroyed, the military airfields are abandoned (already collapsed) ....
      After the devastation of the 90s, the devastation of the 2000s came and completely finished off the region.
      1. Greenwood
        Greenwood 11 September 2017 09: 48
        +2
        Quote: seos
        Primorsky Krai - 10 years the region was ruled by a protege of Moscow criminal authority Darkin
        Darkin people chose. But the current Miklushevsky was really appointed by Moscow, and in my opinion corruption and the extent of theft in the region exceeded those under Darkin at times.
      2. hohol95
        hohol95 11 September 2017 10: 03
        0
        How do you still love to escalate the situation with the Hedgehog.
      3. killganoff
        killganoff 11 September 2017 11: 14
        +1
        Quote: seos
        Because any thinking person sees what is happening in the country ...
        In the Far East, for example, Primorsky Krai - for 10 years the region’s protege Moscow criminal authority Darkin ruled the region, the region has been completely looted, law enforcement agencies do not work, the laws of the Russian Federation do not apply in the courts (court decisions are passed on the basis of decisions and are confirmed in higher instances), prosecution tries .. sends and does not accept applications, corruption flourishes ... People flee en masse from the region to more prosperous areas of the country.
        In the fleet - it has rotted .... most of the ships are not combat ready .. the air defense of the region is destroyed, the military airfields are abandoned (already collapsed) ....
        After the devastation of the 90s, the devastation of the 2000s came and completely finished off the region.

        This is not only in the Far East, it is all over the country, the exception is the "Caucasian" autonomy, there are generally their own laws, and taxation.
        1. seos
          seos 11 September 2017 12: 12
          0
          The fact of the matter is that the Far East has its own laws that are different from the Russian ones ... All this motive with free land has been started only to completely transfer the land to thieves' bureaucratic paws ... As you can see, immigrants it never will be ...
      4. Sadam
        Sadam 11 September 2017 20: 06
        0
        Most of the damage was done by his predecessor Nazdratenko - he transferred the civilian fishing fleet to offshore and was successfully transferred to Moscow in the Ministry of Fisheries for an increase))))
  6. Cxnumx
    Cxnumx 11 September 2017 08: 05
    +4
    when I read that we are "catastrophically behind" in the number of this and that, and urgently need to do something about it (that is, "catch up"), I want to ask the authors of these: will you? food stamps? or skin from aircraft carriers? it seems that the arms race was not a few decades ago, but a couple of centuries at least - they already forgot how it was.
    1. Soho
      Soho 11 September 2017 08: 13
      +8
      I want to ask the authors of such

      and for some of our opposition figures, the principle is this: first shout “the army has collapsed, the fleet has sunk, the planes are falling, something needs to be done!”. And then with no less force: “Why should we spend billions on the army, it’s better to give pregnant pensioners who are dying of hunger!”
      1. seos
        seos 11 September 2017 09: 46
        +2
        Opposition in the 2 country is liberal and patriotic - these statements refer to different oppositions.
        1. jjj
          jjj 11 September 2017 10: 57
          0
          Quote: seos
          Opposition in the 2 country is liberal and patriotic - these statements refer to different oppositions.

          But the owner of these "oppositions" is one
  7. Neputin
    Neputin 11 September 2017 08: 12
    +12
    It is a predictable reaction to an objective article. Now, if Damantsev wrote that our Pacific Fleet is the best in the world and would “tear” everyone here, they would be drooling with delight. The author describes the real situation of a possible confrontation between the dynamically developing fleets of the Asia-Pacific countries and our Pacific Fleet, which is more than 50% just rubbish. I'm not talking about quantity. And the fact that in the military shipbuilding we have a permanent catastrophe, only a blind or paid and pro-government troll does not see this. Gorshkov was laid in 2006. What year is it now? "It's just some shame ..." ("Dog Heart" Bulgakov).
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 11 September 2017 08: 22
      +8
      Quote: Neputin
      "It's just some shame ..."

      Shame to do nothing - this is a shame !!!
      Quote: Neputin
      The author describes the real situation of a possible confrontation between the dynamically developing and fleets of the Asia-Pacific countries and our Pacific Fleet

      Those. do you, like the author, really think that in a future war the ships will fight against ships in classic battles ??? Jutland battle 2 off the coast of Kamchatka ???
      1. Neputin
        Neputin 11 September 2017 08: 40
        +11
        So we don’t do anything. Calculate that the problem with the gas turbine for frigates has just arisen? Yes, they’ve been talking about this for 17 years. In 2000, 6 billion rubles were allocated to create a test bench for domestic gas turbines based on Rybinsk. It took a short 16 years and ... oh, a wonderful miracle and marvelous marvelous - the stand was finally built. Is that a spaceport? Even then, it was clear that relations with Ukraine were collapsing to hell, and it was necessary to establish our own production of both gas turbines and helicopter engines and rocket technology. But everyone sat and scratched their scrotum, calculating profits from expensive oil. Have a good time. Now oil is cheap, there is nowhere to take money, but problems must be solved. Only now in much worse conditions and with greater costs. Why are all these Rogozins and the company sitting in righteousness and getting crazy money? To analyze the situation and plan your actions for the future. And they do not see beyond their underpants. Regarding the last question. What do you think, how ships will fight in classic battles. Probably using rockets. Well, calculate their number and correlate with the capabilities of the air defense fleet. There is not much mind.
        1. Serg65
          Serg65 11 September 2017 10: 08
          +5
          Quote: Neputin
          Calculate that the problem with the gas turbine for frigates has just arisen?

          But is it not destined to look at the problem from all sides? Or so cry hunting ???
          Under the Union, about 40 plants took part in the creation of gas turbines, half of them were located on the territory of the Ukrainian SSR, and part of the remaining 20 with a plus was partly in almost all republics of the USSR. So explain to me how to make gas turbines from the air? At the beginning of the 2000, the question arose of what to do? To postpone the construction of ships until the launch of the entire technological chain of gas turbine production or, without waiting for it, to begin building these ships based on gas turbines of Ukrainian production? Naturally, we chose the second option, which allowed us to accelerate the saturation of the fleet with new ships.
          Quote: Neputin
          Even then, it was clear that relations with Ukraine were collapsing to hell, and it was necessary to establish our own production of both gas turbines and helicopter engines and rocket technology. But everyone sat and scratched the scrotum,

          I’m wondering how it happened that in the 13 year it was planned to smoothly replace the 15 units from the 700 year from the 102 components and taking into account the well-known events, it was possible to replace the 57 units? Those. combed turnips much earlier (taking into account the establishment of their production)?
          Quote: Neputin
          What do you think, how ships will fight in classic battles. Probably using rockets.

          My friend. in order to shoot a rocket, you need someone who directs the rocket, and here we have a problem with the adversary, so the whole struggle will be for the source of target designations! Bullet (shell) d.ura, and a bayonet (rocket) well done, as Comrade Suvorov used to say laughing
          Quote: Neputin
          calculate their number and correlate with the capabilities of the air defense of the fleet.

          what And when will I take it, can I take into account the stationary missile and aviation air defense systems of the fleet?
          1. Neputin
            Neputin 11 September 2017 11: 04
            +6
            Here I agree with you - we can cover the coastline (probably). And there is probably a certain understanding of this in the leadership of the Navy. Hence the construction of RTOs and diesel-electric submarines. But if we are so far focused on the construction of the coastal fleet and are technologically preparing for large ships, why should there be pompous words about “demonstrating the flag” and so on. I am not critical and not spiteful, but the pace of our OSK is somewhat annoying, you see.
            And about GTU this is a lesson to us. Critical production needs to be developed on the territory, which under no circumstances can not split. But who would have thought then. Yes, and we are good - raised the industrial production of "fraternal peoples."
            1. Serg65
              Serg65 11 September 2017 11: 30
              +3
              Quote: Neputin
              why then pompous words about the "demonstration of the flag"

              At all times, the “flag demonstration" was a military component of the work of diplomats wink
              Quote: Neputin
              the pace of our OSK is somewhat annoying, agree.

              And they annoy me, but as a production worker, I try to look soberly at this problem laughing sometimes it turns out, especially when you pass by the ruins of the defense plants of my city.
        2. Setrac
          Setrac 11 September 2017 16: 11
          0
          Quote: Neputin
          What do you think, how ships will fight in classic battles. Probably using rockets. Well, calculate their number and correlate with the capabilities of the air defense fleet. There is not much mind.

          And you count the battle range of these same missiles. In a classic battle, enemy ships simply will not be able to approach the distance of the battle with their missiles.
    2. Cxnumx
      Cxnumx 11 September 2017 08: 34
      +2
      It is a predictable reaction to an objective article. Now, if Damantsev wrote that our Pacific Fleet is the best in the world and would “tear” everyone here, they would be drooling with delight.
      you, in my opinion, were mistaken with the site - there are not very many haters here. at the same time, I would really like to see a figure, i.e. how much money you need to pour into the construction of the fleet, which will be an ala clone of the USA (1 aircraft carrier for 1 aircraft carrier, destroyer for a destroyer, etc.) and how much money will be required to pour into its contents annually. estimate so (purely speculative), a few hundred trillion rubles? and second - where to get these space grandmas? The USA can simply print them in the right quantities, and we? Well then, let's remember that we have fewer aircraft, and cruise missiles, and much more. let's pour all the money into the army. wow! and we’ll go to Moscow for sausages, just like my parents went, and talking about buying electronics is fantastic.
      1. FID
        FID 11 September 2017 08: 48
        +7
        Quote: K0
        wow! and we’ll go to Moscow for sausages, just like my parents went.

        I apologize for the sausages you will travel to the United States, and your grandchildren also ...
        1. Cxnumx
          Cxnumx 11 September 2017 09: 32
          +1
          Quote: SSI
          I apologize for the sausages you will travel to the United States, and your grandchildren also ...

          if we start the arms race again by count, instead of other decisions, no doubt. but you are too optimistic with trips to the USA, money at such expenses (like during a race) is not enough even to go to a sanatorium, in which there is not a damn thing besides mud baths and walks along the pine forest.
          1. Antokha
            Antokha 11 September 2017 15: 26
            +1
            Americans do not need our people. They are tired of repeating to the world that there are too many people, we must somehow starve them. Most likely, we won’t go to either Moscow or the United States, but we will make sausages out of us for the amusement of the Koreans at the suggestion of the Americans. I am sure that the Americans will try our meat in the truest sense of the word. If we let them win, what they always and all the time want, and work tirelessly in this direction. And if in order for them not to defeat us, we need an arms race, then there will be such a race. Racing in order to win them. Do not feel the strength? It doesn’t matter, there are tons of other things, no less important. For example, agriculture and cattle breeding so that riders do not die of hunger. Sew shoes, drive trolleybuses. Not everyone is destined and necessary to be engineers of the military-industrial complex.
  8. Serg65
    Serg65 11 September 2017 08: 12
    +12
    When reading the article I felt a strange feeling ... as if I were reading the symbiosis of Kaptsov and Sivkov, but Kaptsov did not allow such blunders ..
    serial sample air defense frigate 22350 Ave. “Admiral Kasatonov”

    Moreover, let's not forget that all Virginia “blocks” have lower acoustic visibility than our Ash trees, which is possible due to the use of a developed water-jet propulsion.


    Or have the water cannons changed or am I behind life?
    Further more, I came to the conclusion that the author has little idea of ​​the development concept of the Russian Navy and flies somewhere in his fantasies wassat
    1. Neputin
      Neputin 11 September 2017 08: 42
      +2
      You correctly noticed it. The author has little idea of ​​the development concept of the Russian Navy. This is because this very concept is absent in principle.
    2. Antokha
      Antokha 11 September 2017 15: 30
      0
      And could you objectively argue with the author in an article of a similar format? For example, I'm interested in the fleet, but I'm an ignoramus. I still do not understand the difference between a frigate and a destroyer, well, and all these abbreviations ... I think I'm not alone here. The author tried to clearly state his point of view, you say that there is a lot of ... nonsense. Would you like to describe your vision?
    3. IS-80_RVGK2
      IS-80_RVGK2 11 September 2017 17: 25
      +1
      Quote: Serg65
      Further more, I came to the conclusion that the author has little idea of ​​the development concept of the Russian Navy and flies somewhere in his fantasies

      Well, Damantsev cannot be an analyst; one has to compose fairy tales. smile
  9. Homer_J_Simpson
    Homer_J_Simpson 11 September 2017 08: 12
    +6
    Funny approach: "the characteristics of the boats in the media have not yet leaked, but it is already clear that they are worse than the Americans"! What is it like?
  10. Sivasa
    Sivasa 11 September 2017 08: 30
    +5
    It is impossible without consequences, yielding at times economically, competing on equal terms with leading countries.
    USSR tried. The result is known. The lag of the Russian fleet (let's consider it politically correct only quantitatively) is just a consequence of the economic and demographic lag. If you do not change anything, it will increase.
    1. Neputin
      Neputin 11 September 2017 08: 44
      +4
      Well, develop the economy, and not your own wallet, who does not give them. We can not compete with Japan or South Korea. Shame and shame. Soon we will be measured with Lesotho pussy.
    2. Stas157
      Stas157 11 September 2017 08: 54
      +9
      Quote: Sivasa
      It is impossible without consequences, yielding at times economically, competing on equal terms with leading countries.
      USSR tried. The result is known.

      The result is known. We were the second superpower. We were afraid, reckoned with us, and nobody built around military bases around! Once the United States tried to deploy missiles in Turkey - the Caribbean crisis at once! And now, at best, the asymmetric answer is the movement of weapons on its own territory.
      The fact that the USSR collapsed was not because of an arms race, but because of the betrayal of the rotten top. In fact, you are expressing not your own, but the liberal idea that - We lost to the West in the arms race!
    3. max702
      max702 11 September 2017 14: 35
      +2
      Quote: Sivasa

      0
      Sivasa Today, 08:30 New
      It is impossible without consequences, yielding at times economically, competing on equal terms with leading countries.
      USSR tried. The result is known. The lag of the Russian fleet (let's consider it politically correct only quantitatively) is just a consequence of the economic and demographic lag. If you do not change anything, it will increase.

      For some reason everyone forgets the reason for all this mess ... But everything is simple, we lost the fighting on the internal front .. Yes, as a result of betrayal and mishandled Cossacks, but this is the enemy’s troops and databases, we were destroyed from the inside, and continue to be destroyed, key points under the control of a probable adversary (finances, economics, mass media, education) from the supply of the same adversary are appointed mediocre agents of influence are pushed, extremely unprofitable projects are lobbied and much more .. Therefore, this situation in the country .. Until the heel is cleared I and the sixth column about something seriously global are out of the question .. VVP is trying to do something, but here the Augean stables he got just epic proportions. and the "partners" do not sleep .. It is difficult to fight the world bourgeoisie, it is difficult and deadly ..
      1. seos
        seos 13 September 2017 13: 35
        +1
        The problem is not in the 5th and 6th column, the problem is with those managers who are in charge now. Every first official is a thief, and work in the state. the service comes because of money and good opportunities ... If our elite keeps money in the USA and not only their own but also budget ones, then what can we talk about ... In which countries do their children study and live? In the event of war, they will be on whose side? will save the people or their savings and children?
        Moreover, the USSR was betrayed not by the 5th column, but by the very top of the power ... The 5th column without its people in the leadership is not capable of doing anything.
    4. Antokha
      Antokha 11 September 2017 15: 37
      +1
      Repeat enemy agitation. Lived in the USSR? Do you know a lot about his economy and the causes of a problem in his economy? Do you know how problems in the economy were connected with the prevailing doctrine, and how simple / difficult it would be to align the jambs? Do you know how they really lived in the USA at that time, not from films? You can’t write off the entire economy simply because our jeans were not sold.
      And what are you doing to overcome the demographic gap? How many children do you have planned?
      1. Sivasa
        Sivasa 11 September 2017 16: 26
        +1
        He lived in the USSR. Every day faced with its economy. "Bushel per barrel" familiar formula?

        Two kids. And that is the limit. Very hard.
  11. Monarchist
    Monarchist 11 September 2017 08: 51
    +2
    Quote: Serg65
    Quote: Stas157
    What do you think, by the time we have at least one aircraft carrier built, how many will China and the West have?

    I'm wildly sorry, why do you need aircraft carriers ???
    Quote: Stas157
    Please tell me when we catch up and overtake China, the West, America, in terms of economy?

    We will catch up and surpass China, the West and America when we invest in their opposition! The correct and proven way in the fight against competitors or you do not agree?

    Perhaps you are right: we need to adopt some methods from our "well-wishers."
    To get hold of a couple of American Kasyans and Anal, but what a budget it is necessary to contain such ogloedov!
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 11 September 2017 10: 16
      +3
      Quote: Monarchist
      this is what a budget is needed to contain such ogloedov!

      laughing When the Americans counted the money invested in the collapse of the USSR, they already wept with tears of happiness! It cost many times less than an aircraft carrier wink
    2. Odysseus
      Odysseus 11 September 2017 11: 56
      +3
      Quote: Monarchist
      To get hold of a couple of American Kasyans and Anal, but what a budget it is necessary to contain such ogloedov!

      It’s not expensive, but it won’t work. The Americans are very tough on protecting their internal space. Look, the classic American imperialist Trump, who only spoke about the need for good relations with Russia, is being recorded as a “Russian agent”!
      If a real “Russian agent” appears, he will be immediately arrested and sentenced to 15 years, not even for politics, but will find drugs from him or find out that he raped 15 American grandmothers, etc.
      We cannot defend our information space in the same way because we are much lower than the West in the capitalist food chain. Not the American oligarchs withdraw money to us, but ours to them, well, etc. Hence the fawning before the pro-Western opposition. (which is absolutely not observed before the nationalist or socialist opposition).
  12. Disorder
    Disorder 11 September 2017 09: 47
    +2
    The delays in building the domestic aircraft carrier fleet are only a small part of the complex of problems that has emerged recently with the rates of mass production of other types of warships of the main classes.

    I just didn’t read further. Well, Russia does not need as many aircraft carriers as Tanu.
  13. Paul zewike
    Paul zewike 11 September 2017 10: 35
    +3
    Well, build 80 destroyers. And will we keep them for loans? Not a canopy hat - a large fleet. We do not have a worldwide printing press. So what is rich ....
    1. KBR109
      KBR109 11 September 2017 10: 49
      +3
      The author lives in a geopolitical game and does not intend to reckon with the country's economic capabilities. And it is completely not rosy. And it’s not clear whether, in principle, a radical improvement is possible under conditions when the Central Bank of the Russian Federation is a derivative of the US Federal Reserve. When 75% of the GDP in offshore on private accounts and the lives of our elite children are from school and then see TAM.
    2. rexby63
      rexby63 11 September 2017 11: 02
      +8
      For 80 destroyers, it is necessary to have more than 2 thousand officers and at least 20 thousand foremen and midshipmen. Do not tell me, "what women give birth to them"? And most importantly, which "fathers" will bring them up? Even for the currently operating ships and submarines, there is a catastrophic shortage of l / s, but here everyone is shaking with “wise men,” they promise some “challenges” to the states. It's funny ..
  14. Nitarius
    Nitarius 11 September 2017 10: 51
    +2
    author alarmist! It’s necessary to work and not to write horror stories
  15. kos2910
    kos2910 11 September 2017 10: 53
    +3
    I don’t understand why panic? Of course, the Pacific Fleet loses to the likely enemy. Is it really our task to wage colonial wars far from our shores? All this armada is afraid to land on the continent, and even need to break through the coastal defense. This year they planned to close the perimeter of the air defense - this is more important. Of course, the Pacific Fleet needs to be modernized, but without hysteria and excesses.
  16. Music
    Music 11 September 2017 10: 58
    +3
    Of course, our fleet is able to launch nuclear missiles at the enemy and die. No more!
  17. A. Privalov
    A. Privalov 11 September 2017 11: 01
    +2
    "Everything is gone! Gypsum is removed, the client is leaving!" (C)

    I don’t know why, but I wasn’t surprised when my fellow soldier wrote to me that a retired major, a former school military instructor, is compiling lists of locals who are ready to dig ditches to protect against NATO tanks near Chelyabinsk and Yekaterinburg.
  18. serezhasoldatow
    serezhasoldatow 11 September 2017 11: 02
    +1
    "Chief, it’s horrible!" I didn’t even finish reading it. Everyone has their own opinion, but you should not impose on others.
  19. The comment was deleted.
  20. Dart
    Dart 11 September 2017 11: 03
    +1
    Yeah .... the degree of libero and Svidomo in the comments just rolls over ... experts, by the foot.
  21. Mikhail Anokhin
    Mikhail Anokhin 11 September 2017 11: 17
    +1
    The analysis is good!
    The question is different: How many times do you need to kill a person to recognize him dead?
    Getting involved in an arms race, as called for by the author, is a meaningless undertaking!
    It is important to bring to the cities of the adversary a dozen, another thermonuclear charges.
    Bring to the knowledge of the adversary that this will be done as soon as!
    This very cools the heads of those who wish Armageddon.
  22. Mikhail Zubkov
    Mikhail Zubkov 11 September 2017 11: 29
    0
    Each warship on the Pacific Theater is twice as expensive for the Russian Federation as for the enemy. He has developed infrastructure there over decades (if not centuries) - ports, bases, personnel of sailors, including many generations and with housing, training and repair networks, mobilization and medical resources. We will not succeed in catching them in the naval sphere in the coming decades. Russia will be able to equalize the chances of the sea only from space, where we are still ahead of even the United States. In the Arctic - they will not be able to catch up with us, this is our theater. From this, one must build a strategy and develop the necessary weapons. Despite the fact that the author is right with respect to our apparent technological lag in a number of positions in military shipbuilding. Here on this topic you need to write loudly!
    1. Radius
      Radius 11 September 2017 15: 58
      +1
      For a ruble of investments in the Tax Code, 3 rubles should be invested in the base infrastructure.
  23. kuz363
    kuz363 11 September 2017 12: 05
    +3
    Warriors are still in the clouds. Left without pants and barefoot, there is grass from the roadsides, but the fleet must be built! And what to protect with such a fleet - the poor population? But is he needed such as in the USA, which in any case can not be caught up?
    1. Sivasa
      Sivasa 11 September 2017 15: 09
      +1
      Hush! Wake up the Patriots!
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 11 September 2017 20: 45
        0
        they woke me up as a patriot ..... we don’t need either aircraft carriers or destroyers ......, we need more apl, minesweepers, small corvettes, air and ground means, that’s what we need
  24. Odysseus
    Odysseus 11 September 2017 12: 10
    +2
    The Pacific Fleet is not that it is losing the arms race, it is not participating in it (the only surface combat ship built after 1991 is the Perfect Corvette).
    We have now de facto adopted a strictly defensive military doctrine that presumes only the protection of our own coast, and in the case of large-scale aggression, the use of weapons of mass destruction.
    In this theater of operations, the most real threat from Japan looks to the Kuril and Sakhalin. And here the fleet's task is primarily to ensure the submarine's exit to interrupt Japanese trade (and Japan is an island and depends on external supply), and, if necessary, Kyrgyz strike on industrial facilities and nuclear power plants in Japan itself.
  25. Kadimich
    Kadimich 11 September 2017 12: 30
    +2
    Problems in the minds of militarists feeding on the state budget: how to create the appearance of the global problem "ALL against Russia" ...
  26. lady.endzhi
    lady.endzhi 11 September 2017 12: 30
    0
    There are new developments, and already launched. Or do you think the author will be immediately informed to you?
    1. seos
      seos 13 September 2017 13: 41
      0
      Let me guess - nanolinors are invisible?
  27. Fonmeg
    Fonmeg 11 September 2017 12: 37
    0
    It seems Russia’s time to give up! This is precisely the motive of this article. You need to shake the rich wallets and return the money from the aggressor (USA) and invest at least in the defense marine complex!
  28. Evgenii Xolod
    Evgenii Xolod 11 September 2017 13: 04
    0
    If tomorrow morning is expected to "peace in ruin" then yes all is sad. Radiation, the destruction of everything and all bows with arrows (well, in the sense of Kalash))))). And so they build as we can, what we can afford, so few countries have experienced reforms. Builds well. Slowly and God forbid build up. So set aside the panic. And to whom it seems to show a flag.
  29. BORIS YAGUDIN
    BORIS YAGUDIN 11 September 2017 13: 06
    +2
    Some loner thinks ... He considers the launcher a missile. Up to 200 missiles of different destruction ranges can be on one ship ... But Japanese aviation will not at all be able to get close to the area of ​​use of its missiles. generally writes some kind of, to put it mildly, dvoechnik ...
  30. Ru_Na
    Ru_Na 11 September 2017 13: 51
    +1
    The author, you don’t seem to have fully realized that Russia is primarily a continental power and the basis of our Armed Forces is the ground forces, the fleet is essentially auxiliary and designed to protect our maritime borders, hence the decision to build frigates and corvettes. We are not going as the United States to export its "democracy" around the world, therefore, the tasks that are assigned to our fleet are different.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 11 September 2017 15: 19
      +4
      Quote: Ru_Na
      The author, you do not seem to have fully realized that Russia is primarily a continental power and the basis of our armed forces is the ground forces, while the fleet is essentially auxiliary and is designed to protect our maritime borders

      The basis of our aircraft are Strategic Missile Forces. And the fleet in this aspect is an integral part of the "nuclear deterrence forces." Therefore, the main task of the Navy, in short, is to provide 30 minutes for the SSBN's life (launch detection - re-verification - communication of information to decision makers - decision to launch - passage of the launch order to the executors - verification - launch operations cycle).
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 11 September 2017 20: 41
        0
        not only, it is also necessary that the apl are returned to the bases after the strike
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 12 September 2017 12: 34
          +1
          Quote: vladimir1155
          not only, it is also necessary that the apl are returned to the bases after the strike

          This is if it will be where to return. Because if it came to the exchange of nuclear strikes, then the Navy will be on the list of priority goals. Who, being in a sober mind and sound memory, will give the enemy the opportunity to load the “second BC” SLBM into the mines of the SSBN / SSBN? smile
          1. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 12 September 2017 22: 52
            0
            never say never especially about underground shelters pl, for example, no one knows how many apl
  31. ksv36
    ksv36 11 September 2017 14: 19
    0
    for the 8th year our Severnaya Verf shipyard has been “squeezing” the second serial prototype of the air defense frigate, project 22350 Admiral Kasatonov (class Admiral Gorshkov). The adoption of the b / n "431" in the Federation Council is expected no earlier than by 2019

    What do you want? Since 1991, everyone collapsed. We are just rising and there are already successes, and what will happen next - only the heart rejoices.
  32. Serg65
    Serg65 11 September 2017 14: 53
    +3
    Alexey RA,
    Quote: Alexey RA
    So you need to look not at the price of Orlan, but at the production of power plants and rocket weapons.

    laughing Alexei, civilians understand more in terms of money, and your saga about KTU, daggers and slipways zero is little understood by people dreaming of aircraft carriers!
    Say thanks to comrades Ustinov and Amelko

    Rather, probably Ustinov and Gorshkov! Amelko, on the contrary, voted against the TAVKRs with all his feet. for which he paid with the filing of Akhromeev.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 11 September 2017 15: 43
      +2
      Quote: Serg65
      Rather, probably Ustinov and Gorshkov! Amelko, on the contrary, voted against the TAVKRs with all his feet. for which he paid with the filing of Akhromeev.

      If Amelko simply voted against TAVKR, pushing the same “Khalzans” - there would be nothing else.
      But uv. Maureen wrote that it was precisely because of Amelko’s requirements that the displacement of the future 11435 was reduced by 10 tons. And it was precisely at the filing of Amelko in the early 000s that all work on catapults and catapult take-off planes was stopped, so that 80 lost the catapult originally planned for him.
  33. Jaros81
    Jaros81 11 September 2017 15: 13
    +1
    The author is a stupid person? Virginia carries 12 missile axes, Ash to 40 Gauges ... The maximum diving depth at Ash is 600 meters versus 1600 feet at Virginia. 10 torpedo tubes versus 4. I do not see any degradation.
  34. Santor
    Santor 11 September 2017 15: 14
    +1
    How many couch warriors and malicious snickers flocked to Damantsev’s article .... In principle, you could get by with a couple - three paragraphs ... But he always pushed a bunch of useless (instantly forgotten and not digestible) information into the article so that it looked impressive, filled up with numbers , often taken from the ceiling - I will not disassemble the article, I had enough links to the source, where did these digits come from.

    You just had to write - Putin merged everything, plundered everything and took it abroad ... We don’t catch up with the USA and therefore we have to bow to our legs and become cancer again with our pants down, putting a jar of petroleum jelly-s on the fawn.
  35. f4b2
    f4b2 11 September 2017 15: 41
    0
    Japan is an island nation.
    And he clearly and clearly understands how many units of BB with special equipment will turn it
    in the excellent, luminous at night, lunar surface.
    If their politicians forgot about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, incinerated by Tokyo's "ordinary" bombs ... then the military, I am sure, remember well.
  36. Radius
    Radius 11 September 2017 15: 43
    0
    In-depth analysis of the situation. hi According to fragmented data, he assumed that the situation was sad, but it turned out that everything was much worse. It remains to hope for a fighting spirit. Thanks to the author.
  37. 3 Gradient
    3 Gradient 11 September 2017 15: 47
    +1
    Quote: The same Lech
    Evgeny Damantsev, what do you want to drag RUSSIA into the next devastating arms race ... we already passed this ...
    Still, Russia is a continental country and the tasks of the fleet of RUSSIA are completely different than those of the Americans.

    I wanted to write ... But, dear Lech.
    He said the main thing.
    We do for the fleet ...
    What can ... There is still health and education ...
    According to the residual principle ..
  38. Cynic
    Cynic 11 September 2017 16: 25
    +1
    It turns out we are already participating in races ...
    I wonder what else?
  39. Vadmir
    Vadmir 11 September 2017 17: 23
    +1
    A major war with the United States will inevitably lead to an exchange of global nuclear strikes, so why prepare for war with them without using nuclear weapons, let them know that in the event of a war with Russia, we will simply destroy them. The arms race is useless to us, in a conflict with the United States, our fleet should only provide the opportunity for strategic boats to go on combat duty.
    We must be prepared for a war with the United States (nuclear), but the likelihood of such a war is extremely small, but the likelihood of local wars is high.
    Therefore, our fleet must be ready to participate in a local war, have one AAG per NF and Pacific Fleet, landing ships, including helicopter carriers and a sufficient number of frigates for their protection.
    We must have a fleet capable of defending Russia's interests anywhere in the world’s oceans, in a local war, but it should not compete with the United States in the number of ships, the United States is not a country with which we can fight using the fleet, for the United States we have nuclear missiles.
  40. java1124
    java1124 11 September 2017 17: 58
    +1
    Without their army, Sossics are fed mattresses at will. Without carriers and submarines there is no balanced fleet, no nuclear triad Want to live pay ...
  41. SergF123
    SergF123 11 September 2017 18: 00
    +1
    Another observational observation - the Russian fleet is small and wretched, and foreign ships are simply handsome! Some kind of nonsense, Ships are needed to carry out their tasks - ours are defense, not an attack - because even the USSR did not create full-fledged AUGs, but limited itself to Carrier Cruisers, and this is not about money, but expediency ..... It won’t succeed You - Western singers in the arms race to draw Russia - do not try Zhenya!
  42. bald
    bald 11 September 2017 18: 19
    0
    Why catch unnecessary horror. With a surface fleet, it seems like I agree (and who is to blame and where do they look when making ships for other states?), But in fact? Yes, do not let the torpedo go right on target, Tear it at a certain height from the water, at least 50 tons, at least 100 km from the enemy’s aircraft carrier group, are they interested in going to the toilet? He scatters the whole flotilla like candy wrappers. The same rocket. So is there any point in building them, in large quantities. Two pieces and the Pacific Ocean - will be quiet. Everything has long been calculated by scientific developers.
  43. The comment was deleted.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 11 September 2017 19: 19
      +4
      Quote: java1124
      Ships are needed to carry out their tasks - ours are protection, not attack - therefore, even the USSR did not create full-fledged AUGs, but limited itself to aircraft-carrying cruisers, and this is not about money, but expediency

      Take an interest in the history of the creation of TAVKR. There was no sense of expediency there - just one high-ranking official did not like aircraft carriers and loved Yakovlev’s verticals. The fleet back in the early 70s, together with shipbuilders and aviators, developed projects and a program for the construction of full-fledged nuclear ABs with catapult aircraft. Ustinov put an end to this program and ordered to continue building ships that could not even cover themselves with their KVVP aviation. But then, with a displacement of the aircraft carrier, they carried rocket weapons four times smaller than the RRC.
      ... at the suggestion of D.F. Ustinov, as an alternative to the proposal of the SME, MAP, Navy and Air Force on the construction of a series of three AB pr. 1986 until 1160 in the fall of 1973, it was decided to create instead of them modernized anti-submarine cruisers (RCC) type "Kiev", starting in 1975 the construction of the third ship of this type
      At the insistence of the new Minister of Defense D.F.Ustinov, in 1977-1978. decisions were made to terminate the work begun on technical ave. 1153 and to continue the construction of anti-ship missiles (then reclassified to heavy aircraft carriers-TAKR) of the Kiev type. In 1978, instead of the lead cruiser of pr. 1153, the fourth ship of the Kiev type was laid down (on pr. 1143 M, then 1143 A, 11434), designed to base the Yak-41 VTOL aircraft. The fifth TAKR was to be built on a new project 11435 with ejection aircraft (types MiG-29K, Su-25K, Su-27K) and VTOL Yak-41. The development of the MiG-23K aircraft also stopped, and the construction of the Nitka ground complex, which was launched to ensure the creation of Project 1153 ships, continued in the interests of creating a new TAKR and aircraft for it.

      ICh, as a result, instead of TAVKR, I still had to build a normal AB 11437. But they did not have time to finish it.
      Quote: java1124
      A young man inappropriately ask about the USSR for Admirals Kuznetsov and Gorshkov.

      Mwa ha ha! Both Kuznetsov and Gorshkov demanded for the fleet aircraft carriers. Project 71, project 72, project 85, project 1160, project 1153 - that's all the fleet wanted.
      At first, the fleet had to fight shipbuilders. The pre-war projects of AB were simply thrown out by the NKSP unilaterally from the already agreed plan - and the fleet swallowed. After the war, the fleet was able to consistently negotiate with shipbuilders (butom was the second pusher AB except Gorshkov), aviators and aircraft builders. The technical decision on the possibility, necessity and feasibility of building a new AB was made. But the political decision is no.
      After consideration by the Presidium of the NTS of the Ministry of Industry and the joint NTS of the Ministry of Industry, Minaviaprom, the Navy and the Air Force (with the participation of the leadership of all defense industries, whose enterprises were involved in the creation of the AB, the development of avant-projects for the ship, aircraft, aviation and other weapons for it) was recommended for further design version of the atomic multipurpose aircraft with a displacement of about 80 tons, which had optimal combat and economic performance, with catapult take-off aircraft (fighter Su-000 type, anti-submarine type P-27) and Ka-42 type helicopters with a total number of shipborne aircraft (LAC) of up to 27 aircraft, the Granit anti-ship missile system (SCRC), anti-aircraft fire weapons and electronic weapons.
      However, in addition to confirming the necessity and expediency of the Navy and the Air Force, and industry - the technical feasibility of creating AB and naval aviation catapult take-offs for the construction of such ships, it was necessary to make a political decision at the highest level, for which the country's leadership was unprepared.

      All quotes are from A. Morin. "Heavy aircraft carrier of the project 11435 Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov."
      For reference: Morin A.B. - chief designer of the nuclear aircraft carrier advance project, deputy chief designer of a number of projects of heavy aircraft-carrying cruisers.
  44. java1124
    java1124 11 September 2017 19: 05
    +1
    The avaricious pays twice, since 1985 atomic carriers supporting the deployment of SSBNs have entered the USSR doctrine. Av Ulyanovsk is the first-born ... There is no need for 12 aircraft carriers, just as much ... ... Where to deliver forces in 2-5 years The aircraft carrier lasts 50 years, you will have to like it or not. There is no reception against scrap if there is no other scrap
  45. ff.ffffff2015
    ff.ffffff2015 11 September 2017 19: 25
    +1
    In 2012, the POD submarine, floating up next to the statue of liberty in New York, put a fat cross on the American army as a whole, the United States is not able to fight against a country that can respond.
    1. kig
      kig 13 September 2017 03: 36
      +2
      This is some kind of mysterious story. I searched in Google, Yandex, yachts - nowhere did I find a clear mention that the boats had surfaced and exactly opposite in the statue of Liberty. American newspapers would not have missed such a chance, and certainly there would have been photographs - but there is nothing of the sort. There are only references that our boats were spotted in the Gulf of Mexico and generally near the borders of neutral waters. If you have a link to this particular incident, throw a pliz.
    2. ketchow
      ketchow 14 September 2017 12: 20
      +1
      Quote: ff.ffffff2015
      In 2012, the POD submarine, floating up next to the statue of liberty in New York, put a fat cross on the American army as a whole, the United States is not able to fight against a country that can respond.

      This is a fairytale.
  46. java1124
    java1124 11 September 2017 19: 52
    +1
    No need to find out who is cooler. USA is very serious guys, you need to deal with them with brains and willpower ... Your grandfathers and fathers could ... now you prove it, and we will take care. You will have to build and manage
  47. Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 11 September 2017 20: 36
    0
    everything is very tendentious, for example, air independence is not in itself an end in itself, more important is acoustic nemeinost ... well, ah, about the lack of destroyers that no one needs destroyers, the leader shows that the author superficially approaches the topic
  48. Berkut24
    Berkut24 11 September 2017 20: 54
    +2
    Consequently, in a limited naval theater of operations (about 400-450 miles long) with an established anti-submarine defense of the enemy, the Halibuts can be considered non-nuclear ultra-low-noise submarines of the "first days of the war".

    First days? I heard right? Everything that moves by sea will be relevant only the first hours. in the Far East, it would never occur to anyone to try our fleet on the tooth, for everyone knows that a country with a small fleet and a large arsenal of nuclear weapons will hit the ball with the guarantee that it will solve the problem within an hour.
  49. java1124
    java1124 11 September 2017 21: 35
    0
    Since 1945, no one has used a nuclear club, only aircraft carriers carried the countries to smithereens
  50. seacap
    seacap 11 September 2017 21: 58
    0
    Nobody will plan and will not conduct the 2nd Normandy (op. Overlord) in modern conditions, there are no crazy people even among our partners (it’s a pity, of course, but there is a competent and stubborn enemy). The destroyers are more “imprisoned” in missile defense and air defense, to create a shield from a retaliatory strike, universal launchers can also be equipped with shock missiles for a lightning fast global strike (the last “trick” of the MO partners). Expeditionary landing, if planned, is completely suppressed. On our side, there are still enough strike and PLO components. With PLO we have at all times Bloem were t.ch.nad this and we have to work and rabotayut.No particularly critical, reason to cry that all is lost, nothing at this time does not ukazyvaet.100 years ago they have already landed in Vladivostok and Murmansk, what end?