Anti-aircraft missile system "Pine"

83
Relatively recently, the prospective short-range anti-aircraft missile system “Pine” appeared and passed the necessary tests. Self-propelled vehicles of this type are intended for ground forces and are able to protect the compound from various threats from the air. Until recently, the general public had only a few photos and basic information about the prospective air defense system. Literally the other day, everyone who wanted was able to see the Pine system in action.

A few days ago at one of the video services, the official commercial of the “Pine” project was published, apparently intended for foreign potential buyers. With the help of off-screen text and some infographics, the authors of the video told viewers about the main features of the anti-aircraft complex, its capabilities and prospects. The story of the newest Russian combat vehicle was accompanied by a demonstration of driving performance and shooting. In particular, the target-simulator of a cruise missile, which was attacked by the Pine air defense missile system, was shown.



Anti-aircraft missile system "Pine"
General view of the Pine air defense missile system


The project of a promising anti-aircraft system for the ground forces was developed by JSC "Design Bureau of Precision Engineering. A.E. Nudelman. The project was based on a proposal made back in the nineties of the last century. In accordance with it, it was necessary to carry out a deep modernization of the existing Strela-10 air defense system, aimed at enhancing the main characteristics and obtaining new opportunities. Such a proposal was accepted for implementation, and later a new project was created.

The models of the perspective system have been demonstrated at various exhibitions since the end of the last decade. The full-fledged complex “Pine” was first shown to specialists in 2013 year during a conference dedicated to the development of air defense systems. In the future, the necessary tests and refinements were carried out, the results of which were used to decide on the further fate of the equipment. So, at the beginning of last year, it was announced the imminent start of procurement.


Complex at the site


Being a further development of the existing complex, the Pine system is a self-propelled combat vehicle with a full set of detection tools and rocket weapons. It is able to carry out air defense connections on the march and in positions. It provides tracking of the situation in the near zone with the possibility of the fastest possible attack and destruction of targets of various classes.

The manufacturer declared the possibility of building the SOSNA air defense system on the basis of various chassis, the choice of which is assigned to the customer. It is proposed to build complexes for the Russian army on the basis of the MT-LB multi-purpose armored vehicles. In this case, the combat module with the necessary equipment is mounted in the aft part of the roof, on the chase of the appropriate diameter. The use of such a chassis is not associated with serious difficulties, but it does provide some advantages. "Pine" on the basis of MT-LB can work in some combat formations with another modern armored vehicles, is able to overcome various obstacles and cross water obstacles by swimming.


Opto-electronic equipment unit


The combat module of the complex "Pine" is not different complex design. Its main element is a large vertical casing mounted on a flat turntable. It has all the necessary means of detection and identification, as well as launchers for missiles. The design of the module provides circular guidance of weapons and thereby simplifies the monitoring of the situation, followed by firing.

In front of the combat module is a light armored casing with rectangular contours, necessary to protect the block of optical-electronic equipment. Before the start of combat work, the top cover of the casing leans back, and the side flaps are spread apart, which allows the use of optical devices. On the roof of the module is the antenna of the radio command command system of an anti-aircraft missile. The module sides are fitted with mounts for two launchers. For pre-targeting installations are equipped with actuators that are responsible for moving in a vertical plane.

A curious feature of the Pine air defense missile system is the rejection of the use of radar detection equipment. Monitor the air situation is offered only with the help of optical-electronic systems. Also used a combined method of controlling the rocket, in which a large role is played by optical means.


Onboard Electronics Architecture


The tasks of observation, tracking and guidance are assigned to a gyrostabilized optic-electronic unit. It includes a daytime camera and a thermal imager. A separate thermal imaging device is designed to track the flying missile. Three laser devices are installed on the block: two are used as rangefinders, while the third is used as part of the rocket control system.

The signal and data from the optical-electronic systems arrive at the main digital computing device and are displayed on the screen of the operator’s console. The operator can monitor the entire surrounding space, find targets and take them to the accompaniment. Also, the operator is responsible for launching the rocket. Further product targeting processes are performed by automation without human intervention.


In motion on the landfill


The Sosna air defense missile system uses the 9М340 Sosna-R anti-aircraft missile, developed on the basis of ammunition for the existing complexes. The rocket differs in the reduced dimensions and has the combined control system. In this case, the product simultaneously carries two combat units of different types, which allows a noticeable increase in the probability of hitting the target.

Having a maximum case diameter of 130 mm, the Sosna-R rocket has a length of 2,32 m and weighs only 30,6 kg. The rocket with the transport and launch container has a length of 2,4 m with a mass of 42 kg. In flight, the rocket is capable of speeds up to 875 m / s. Air targets are hit at ranges up to 10 km and altitudes up to 5 km. The warhead of the rocket with a total mass of 7,2 kg is divided into an armor-piercing unit, which is triggered by a direct hit on the target, and a core-type fragmentation unit. Undermining is performed using a contact or laser remote fuse.


Preparation for shooting


The ammunition of the Sosna combat vehicle includes 12 9М340 missiles in transport and launch containers. Six missiles (two rows of three) are placed on each side of the launcher. TPC anti-aircraft missiles are fixed on a large frame with vertical pickup drives, having a connection with a gyroscopic stabilizer. A positive feature of the Pine air defense missile system was the ability to perform recharging without using a transport-loading machine. Relatively light missiles can be delivered to the launcher by the crew. Recharging takes about 10 minutes.

The use of a combined control system for commands from the ground made it possible to optimize the design of the rocket and obtain the highest possible combat characteristics. Immediately after launch, a rocket using a booster engine is controlled according to the radio command principle. With the help of commands from the automation, coming from the antenna of the combat module, the rocket passes the initial part of the flight and is displayed on a predetermined trajectory. Next, it "catches" the laser beam guidance system. The automation directs the beam to the calculated meeting point with a target, and the rocket independently keeps it on it throughout the entire flight. Undermining the warhead is made independently, at the command of a fuse.


Rocket launch "Pine-R"


The developer declared the possibility of intercepting various air targets that threaten troops on the march or in positions. The Sosna-R missile is capable of hitting airplanes flying at speeds up to 300 m / s, cruise missiles at speeds up to 250 m / s and helicopters accelerating to 100 m / s. At the same time, real indicators of maximum range and altitude vary slightly depending on the type and characteristics of the target.

According to the manufacturer, the newest domestic anti-aircraft complex "Pine" is able to carry out air defense of compounds or areas, working independently or as part of batteries. Monitoring of the airspace can be done on its own, however, it is possible to obtain third-party target designation from other means of detection. The applied complex of optical electronic equipment ensures all-weather and round-the-clock combat work with sufficient efficiency. Automation is capable of shooting and hitting targets, both when working in a position and in motion.


Target hit areas


The Pine air defense missile system also has a number of other advantages directly related to the main ideas of the project in the field of surveillance equipment. The absence of radar surveillance equipment allows you to secretly monitor the situation and not unmask yourself with radiation. Observation in the optical and thermal ranges also allows you to actually get rid of the restrictions on the minimum height of detection, tracking and attack of the target. The rocket is induced using a laser beam, receiving devices for which are located on its tail section. Thus, the complex is insensitive to the means of optical or electronic suppression.

At the beginning of last year, it became known that in the foreseeable future, the advanced Sosna anti-aircraft missile system would go into service and be put into serial production. A recently published video, obviously aimed at a foreign customer, demonstrates the developer’s intention to obtain export contracts. Previously, information appeared on the possible use of developments on the Sosna air defense system in new projects. So, it was argued that the promising airborne “Ptitselov” anti-aircraft complex, designed for the Airborne Forces, would receive exactly the combat module of the “Pine” type with 9М340 missiles.

Previously KB precision engineering them. A.E. Nudelman published various information about the project "Pine". In addition, to date, photos of such a combat vehicle in various settings have become publicly available. Now everyone has the opportunity to see the new anti-aircraft complex “in dynamics”. A video published a few days ago shows how the Pine air defense missile system behaves on the tracks of landfills, how it fires at air targets and what the results of such attacks are.


On the materials of the sites:
http://npovk.ru/
http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/
http://gurkhan.blogspot.ru/
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/
83 comments
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  1. +9
    8 September 2017 06: 27
    Complexes for the Russian army are proposed to be built on the basis of MT-LB multipurpose armored vehicles.

    The chassis of the MT-LB, with all its merits, is outdated, and it is doubtful that a new short-range military air defense system should be built on this base.
    1. +3
      8 September 2017 07: 30
      Quote: Bongo
      The chassis of the MT-LB, with all its merits, is outdated, and it is doubtful that a new short-range military air defense system should be built on this base.


      The basis for the machine is the MT-LB multi-purpose lightly armored chassis, while the air defense system elements can be mounted on both wheeled and tracked chassis, it can be installed on ships and on a stationary basis on the shore, with one requirement for bearing platforms - their carrying capacity must be at least 4 tons. As examples, BMP-3, BMD-4, BTR-82.
      https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Сосна_(ЗРК)
      1. +4
        8 September 2017 08: 31
        Nonsense on the chassis of the MZKT that the torus will stand smoothness no one has not canceled
        1. AUL
          +2
          8 September 2017 10: 17
          Still, the lack of a surveillance radar is confusing.
          1. +6
            8 September 2017 12: 31
            Quote from AUL
            Still, the lack of a surveillance radar is confusing.

            The battery includes a control center with 1L122 radar - everything is tied to the Barnaul-T air defense control system.
            An optical system with a thermal imager is fully capable of automatically detecting and tracking targets in the surveillance sector of an OLS
    2. +3
      8 September 2017 11: 07
      A chassis better than MT-LB does not exist ... by the criterion of price-reliability-efficiency, no other chassis was even nearby.
      Modernization "arrow-10" money down the drain, because the modernization itself will be more expensive than buying a new car. It is necessary not to modernize but to supplement the Pine troops (if the arrow is sent for conservation, it will rot there ...)
      The fact that the "Birds" must be done with the "Pine" module is a fact .... the advantages of cost and stealth compensate for all possible shortcomings. (The information was that missiles from the tunguska would be delivered without guns).
      1. +4
        8 September 2017 13: 28
        Quote: seos
        A chassis better than MT-LB does not exist ... by the criterion of price-reliability-efficiency, no other chassis was even nearby.

        It didn’t exist ... now MT-LB is not produced, and the existing ones have largely developed a resource.
        Quote: seos
        Modernization "arrow-10" money down the drain, because the modernization itself will be more expensive than buying a new car. It is necessary not to modernize but to supplement the Pine troops (if the arrow is sent for conservation, it will rot there ...)

        The Century of Strela-10 is ending; SAMs for this complex have not been released for more than 20 years.
        Quote: seos
        The fact that the "Birds" must be done with the "Pine" module is a fact .... the advantages of cost and stealth compensate for all possible shortcomings. (The information was that missiles from the tunguska would be delivered without guns).

        From the very beginning, missiles for the Pine were designed with guidance along the "laser path".
        1. 0
          8 September 2017 23: 32
          MTLB and MTLBu produce at least 2 enterprises in Russia and their prices are very affordable, there are a lot of these machines in stock ...

          On the network on some forum the photo of the "bird-catcher" slipped through .... like it was with a radar, I don’t remember exactly ...
          1. +2
            9 September 2017 03: 53
            Quote: seos
            MTLB and MTLB produce at least 2 enterprises in Russia

            Do not confuse repair with production. No.
            1. +1
              9 September 2017 14: 46
              from the wiki: “At present, MT-LBU is being manufactured at OJSC Muromteplovoz. The cost of the MT-LBU chassis, which has undergone major repairs, is 4,5 million rubles, and the newly manufactured one is 5,8 million rubles. [5]"
              Pre-crisis prices, now cheaper ...
            2. 0
              9 September 2017 14: 50
              Here is the evidence:
              http://girtek.ru/tekhnika/mtlb.php МТ-ЛБ новый 2017 г.в.: от 2 987 000 руб
              ibid.
              http://girtek.ru/tekhnika/mtlb-u.php МТ-ЛБу новый 2017 г.в.: от 3 490 000 руб.
              1. +3
                9 September 2017 15: 43
                Quote: seos
                Here is the evidence:

                This is laughter and not evidence, we are talking about restored and redone machines taken from storage. Before the collapse of the USSR, MT-LB production was carried out in Kharkov. The Murom plant is MT-LBu and would be glad to produce it, only there are no orders for it.
                1. 0
                  9 September 2017 19: 40
                  There are orders for it! and a lot .... In the north, even bread is transported to the shops on it ...

                  And the evidence for a normal person would be enough .... I think if you don’t even believe in smelting the body, you still won’t believe it ... it’s a massive hallucination ...
                  1. +2
                    10 September 2017 02: 14
                    Quote: seos
                    There are orders for it! and a lot .... In the north, even bread is transported to the shops on it ...

                    stop How many MO RF over the past 10 years has MT-LB purchased? fool I repeat once again, restored cars are sold.
                    Quote: seos
                    And the evidence for a normal person would be enough .... I think if you don’t even believe in smelting the body, you still won’t believe it ... it’s a massive hallucination ...

                    Are you apparently a hallucination specialist? negative Intelligence gushing over the edge ... wassat
      2. 0
        24 December 2017 00: 08
        Regarding the positive qualities of MT-LB, I completely agree. And the ride is a plus for the chassis. Here is just one question: where is the MO going to take MT-LB? It was developed and built by Kharkov. If you use the MT-LB that is in the army, then another question is: what should the tractor be changed in the army for, if it is taken to Pine?
    3. 0
      9 September 2017 18: 53
      Maybe in the future they will put 25 Kurganets on the chassis - so that they have extra ammunition with them.
  2. +4
    8 September 2017 07: 51
    And how it will work in conditions of strong smoke
    1. +2
      8 September 2017 15: 19
      Quote: Ken71
      And how it will work in conditions of strong smoke

      Read carefully.
      At first, the rocket goes through a radio channel, and imagine smoke at an altitude of 2 km. Of course you can, but this is a unrealistic situation.
      1. 0
        8 September 2017 20: 44
        So there is no radar. Who is Navett
        1. +3
          8 September 2017 21: 06
          OLS induces. First, the rocket flies radio command (this is such a blister on top of the OLS), then along the laser beam.
  3. +10
    8 September 2017 08: 27
    Kirill Ryabov why didn’t you write that this complex with Belarus was being developed
    Hypersonic missiles of the complex can hit targets at ranges up to ten kilometers and are capable of destroying planes, helicopters and cruise missiles.

    The air defense system is fully automated, so it spends a minimum amount of time on hitting targets. The complex itself is the result of a deep modernization of the Strela-10М3 air defense system. Ammunition "Pines" tripled, and the range has doubled - from 5 to 10 km.

    According to RIA Novosti, Belarusian experts took part in the development of the anti-aircraft complex. As the basis for the "Pine" was selected multifunctional light armored tractor - MTLB.

    In the basic version, without radar, the Sosna air defense system has high survivability on the battlefield. During the search for a target, the complex does not radiate anything, which greatly complicates its detection.
    1. +5
      8 September 2017 09: 03
      Quote: Lex.
      Kirill Ryabov why didn’t you write that this complex with Belarus was being developed

      =======
      In fact, the complex was developed by the Tula Design Bureau named after Nudelman !!! It is this firm that is the head developer. This DOES NOT MEAN that some components and products of other developers (including Belarusian) could not be used! This is a completely PLAIN generally accepted world practice! Today, such giants as Boeing or Raytheon are NOT ABLE to do absolutely everything on their own! Yes, this is not advisable. It is strange that you do not know this !!! Very strange!
      And as for the Belarusians, then most likely they did a thermal imager .......
      1. +1
        8 September 2017 09: 15
        Well, they and their missiles are already tested anti-tank
        1. +3
          8 September 2017 10: 36
          Quote: Lex.
          Well, they and their missiles are already tested anti-tank

          Not only...



          On the basis of the Soviet Osa air defense system, specialists of the Belarusian enterprise Tetrahedr created the T38 STILET short-range air defense system, the two-stage T382 air defense systems were developed for it in the Kiev Luch design bureau.
          1. +2
            8 September 2017 13: 16
            The rocket is similar in Russian shell
            1. +1
              8 September 2017 13: 29
              Quote: Lex.
              The rocket is similar in Russian shell

              The Tunguska also uses a bicaliber two-stage rocket.
      2. +2
        8 September 2017 09: 21
        In fact, the complex was developed by the Tula Design Bureau named after Nudelman !!! It is this firm that is the head developer. It does not mean
        From Nudelman, there are only missiles; all missiles can be supplied with any Belarusian guidance system and instruments, and by the way they signed an agreement with KB Nudelman, so you don’t know
  4. +5
    8 September 2017 09: 18
    Well. A worthy replacement for the old Strela-10 complex, although it’s been at least 15 years old about this complex. It’s good that they brought
  5. +1
    8 September 2017 10: 43
    How relevant is the “pine” when a veteran adversary has been massively using guided bombs for a long time?
    1. +4
      8 September 2017 13: 31
      Quote: Großer Feldherr
      How relevant is the “pine” when a veteran adversary has been massively using guided bombs for a long time?

      Actual! Yes This military complex is designed to counter primarily combat helicopters and attack aircraft.
      1. mvg
        +1
        8 September 2017 14: 23
        hi
        10 km .. strong speed limit and low speed of the rocket itself ... winked not very strong cover for the troops.
        A lot of ATGM has a longer range. As it is not very much, Strela- in Iraq shot down helicopters and attack aircraft, but it perished much more often. I know about 1 downed Apache and 2 damaged A-10s. Not enough for dozens, if not hundreds of complexes.
        1. +3
          8 September 2017 14: 41
          Quote: mvg
          10 km .. a strong speed limit and low speed of the rocket itself ... winked not very strong cover for the troops.

          Greetings!
          The 875 m / s missile speed is quite sufficient to counter helicopters and low-altitude aircraft operating at transonic speeds.
          Quote: mvg
          A lot of ATGM has a longer range.

          stop With a launch range of 10 km and a speed exceeding 2M? No.
          We do not know such serial ATGMs No. Do not forget about the guidance system. What is the likelihood of an ATGM from a contact cumulative warhead entering a plane, or at least a helicopter?
          Quote: mvg
          As it is not very much, Strela- in Iraq shot down helicopters and attack aircraft, but it perished much more often.

          "Strela-10" of the latest modifications in skillful hands and as part of a battery receiving target designation with PUs is a fairly effective weapon. Do you think if the Iraqis had a "Shell" or "Tunguska", the result would be different?
          1. mvg
            +2
            8 September 2017 15: 20
            Sergei, meant that the Apaches are now attacking from 12-16 km, not entering the Pine zone (Arrows-10).
            Apaches in the second stage of “Desert Storm” were engaged in “hunting for tanks” ....... damn, I left ((called (
            1. +4
              8 September 2017 15: 58
              Quote: mvg
              Sergey, meant that now the Apaches are attacking from 12-16 km

              Sorry, but which ATGM is used?
              1. +2
                8 September 2017 16: 10
                Quote: Bongo
                Sorry, but which ATGM is used?

                Sergey, he’s probably talking about this crap, which is still unknown when it will go into service
                1. mvg
                  +1
                  8 September 2017 21: 44
                  No, not about this crap, but about this // http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/longbow
                  /longbow.shtml //
                  Just what I was talking about, 12-16 km.
                  ...........................
                  About technology and doubt that Araps are bad warriors ...
                  And the equipment was delivered heavily “stripped down”, so that the T-62s were destroyed by the very outdated Chieftains and Centurions (83.4, 90 and 105 mm guns), even Super Shermans. And there was such a bike, you want, you will find: After devastating losses in air battles and accusations of equipment, the Russian Ases (really aces, not less than a major) arrived and ... got into a prepared air battle. The result - 4 dead and 5 aircraft on the ground, the Jews have no casualties.
                  PS: Still got off well.
                  1. +2
                    8 September 2017 22: 31
                    Quote: mvg
                    And there was such a bike, you want, you will find: After devastating losses in air battles and accusations of equipment, the Russian Ases (really aces, not less than a major) arrived and ... got into a prepared air battle. The result - 4 dead and 5 aircraft on the ground, the Jews have no casualties.

                    IN. resource for fans of tales.
                    P.S. even Sergey distributes them crying
                    1. mvg
                      0
                      8 September 2017 22: 41
                      hi
                      Dear, I'm not talking about VO. I'm talking about a real case, which the Arabs are very proud of and we ourselves recognize. By the way, after that battle, the Russian pilots recognized that the Jews are excellent pilots and strategists. One of the most trained and combat-ready units in the world, if not the most.
                      PS: And the case is really interesting.
                      And, by the way, supply the USSR with really real, uncut equipment, it remains to be seen who would win.
                      For example, the Yankees put the F-15SA to the Saudis, with avionics, which they themselves only had later. The Germans Kataru Leo2A7, and themselves - 20 pcs. Only we sell stripped-down sucks to screw up later.
                      // http://www.rusarmy.com/forum/threads/vozdushnyj-b
                      oj-vvs-sssr-i-izrailja-30-ijulja-1970-goda. 11501 /
                      //
                      1. +3
                        8 September 2017 22: 51
                        I read the tin link. The text in the pioneer campfire, should be read out. TTX and why zero, emotions over the edge.
                      2. 0
                        1 May 2020 13: 26
                        So screwed up more than once. Here was the sea Wasp. Ours had 1 daily frequency and 8 wartime "letters". The export one had 2 "Liter frequencies". What is surprising in the end.
              2. +2
                8 September 2017 16: 13
                AGM-114 Hellfire. It should be noted that this shot-and-forget missile in combination with a radar above the rotor hub allows Apache not only to attack from the above distances, but also to do it in a matter of seconds, looking slightly out of the terrain. This is his most important advantage over Russian cars, which are forced to expose themselves to air defense fire, highlighting the target for their missiles.
                1. +4
                  8 September 2017 16: 20
                  Quote: noviczok
                  AGM-114 Hellfire. It should be noted that this shot-and-forget missile in combination with a radar above the rotor hub allows Apache not only to attack from the above distances, but also to do it in a matter of seconds, looking slightly out of the terrain.

                  It should be noted that this decision has its drawbacks, except for the price.
                  So RADAR Longbow detects the target, then the rocket flies on inertial and GPS, and all is well until the targets move in a dense column.
                  1. +1
                    8 September 2017 16: 53
                    Could you clarify your comment a bit? This is really interesting to me. As far as I went over various articles on the Internet, when starting, the inertial system takes into account the movement of both the helicopter and the target. Or is the problem of rocket self-selection of targets in a tight column?
                    1. +3
                      8 September 2017 16: 59
                      Quote: noviczok
                      Or is the problem of rocket self-selection of targets in a tight column?

                      In self-selection of goals. Missile radar is all the same, the target is struck, what is the target, which in dense columns, and even moving ones, causes certain difficulties.
                      Quote: noviczok
                      at launch, the inertia system takes into account the movement of both the helicopter and the target

                      Honestly, I don’t really know how the inertia will take into account the speed of the target. request
                      Please explain. drinks
                      1. +1
                        8 September 2017 17: 08
                        Thanks for the answer! Unfortunately, I cannot particularly explain - not a specialist. For what I bought, for that I sell:
                        Immediately before launch, the helicopter’s onboard equipment transmits to the missile data regarding the target: the direction and distance to it, as well as the motion parameters of the helicopter and the enemy machine.

                        https://topwar.ru/19830-luchshie-v-svoem-klasse-m
                        i-28n-i-ah-64d-apache-longbow.html
                  2. 0
                    8 September 2017 23: 39
                    "RADAR Longbow detects a target" - the target should move and be well-illuminated ...
                    SAM Pine hidden complex .... this is its advantage ... Longbow does not even understand that he is under attack ...
                    1. 0
                      8 September 2017 23: 47
                      Quote: seos
                      "RADAR Longbow detects a target" - the target should move and be well-illuminated ...

                      The fact that it should reflect well is undeniable, but can't its radar distinguish motionless targets?
                      I thought that this problem was solved long ago by the RADAR developers, though I don’t know how request
              3. mvg
                0
                8 September 2017 21: 35
                Just arrived, Kyuzme. Helfire-2, for example. 12 km They promise 16 when upgrading. Link?
                // http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/longbow
                /longbow.shtml //
                1. +3
                  8 September 2017 22: 29
                  So, I will tell you a little secret, the range of the Hellfire and 20 km may be, depending on the height of the carrier. In the case of a high-altitude launch, the Earth’s conservative gravitational field adds energy to the rocket (as it turned, it’s already very pleasant wassat ).
                  In real combat conditions, helicopters for 5 km. they don’t fly at altitude, but cling to the ground, which leads to a 8–9 km Hellfire launch range.
                  And without increasing the mass of fuel on the rocket (and hence the rocket itself), the range is not particularly increased.
                  The only thing that can increase the range is the use of faster fuel, which is associated either with financial, or operational, or physical barriers.
                  Those. resume Sergey is right you are not.
                  1. mvg
                    0
                    8 September 2017 23: 03
                    I’ll also tell you a little bedtime story, though there are no gravitational fields there. request The air defense missiles at the final sections practically do not maneuver, there is not enough energy, so the declared 10 km is also a lie (passport data). PS: 2M there are few missiles for the air defense system, and the British proved it when they made their own, in my opinion, Sea Darts based on the ATGM.
                    By the way, how will they shoot at night on the optical channel for 10 km?
                    PPS: laughing That's it, I propose a movie and sleep (and I, with your permission) move away from the gravitational field a bit, I can remember physics, like I was at school and at the institute 5 hi here is the fuck)
                    1. 0
                      8 September 2017 23: 10
                      Quote: mvg
                      SAM missiles in the final sections practically do not maneuver

                      Hmm ...
                      Quote: mvg
                      By the way, how will they shoot at night on the optical channel for 10 km?

                      There are two thermal imagers ....
                      Quote: mvg
                      I can remember physics, like at school and at the institute it was 5

                      The delights of Soviet-Russian education ....
                      1. mvg
                        0
                        9 September 2017 11: 55
                        There are two thermal imagers ....

                        I want a thermal imager for 10 km, laughing , given the fact that matrices are not produced in Russia ... but French (for example, in the Sosna-U tank sight, at 3500 m)
                        The delights of Soviet-Russian education ....

                        Well, what it is. Voenmekh. Sorry, they didn’t finish the harvards ... they didn’t take recourse
          2. 0
            8 September 2017 15: 29
            Quote: Bongo
            Do you think if the Iraqis had a "Shell" or "Tunguska", the result would be different?

            Sergey, do you really believe in the fairy tale "Arabs are bad wars"?
            I grew up crying
            1. +4
              8 September 2017 15: 54
              Quote: KKND
              Sergey, do you really believe in the fairy tale "Arabs are bad wars"?
              I grew up

              Do not Cry! I once spoke with an Egyptian who spoke good Russian. He studied in the USSR and graduated from the commander of the anti-aircraft division C-125. So he told me what bad and outdated equipment we supplied them, and that is why they lost. After I realized that I was "in the subject" the Russian language almost ceased to understand. Objectively, the level of training in the Arab air defense calculations was not bad, but far from all right with discipline and motivation to perform official duties.
              Quote: KKND
              I wonder if a modern thermal imager can see her?

              Theoretically, it may also depend on the speed at which the bombing was carried out. But do not forget that the thermal imagers of mobile air defense systems are configured to detect the exhaust of a jet engine, and this is a completely different "picture".
              1. 0
                8 September 2017 16: 16
                Quote: Bongo
                I once spoke with an Egyptian who spoke good Russian.

                The Doomsday Warrior supplied good equipment, and then sucks? No.
                In Vietnam, they realized that the natives could not sit down themselves, but relied on the Arabs?
                Arabs were taught, taught, but they were able, then could not?
                Strange, right?
                They never lie so much as in hunting and war. (This is about your conversation with the Egyptian)
          3. 0
            8 September 2017 16: 27
            Quote: Bongo
            With a launch range of 10 km and a speed exceeding 2M?

            Well, only 9M120 is the closest.
          4. mvg
            +1
            8 September 2017 21: 53
            1. The speed in 2M is not enough, if you shoot "catch up", the plane will simply leave ...
            2. That's just for ATGM speed is not the most important, I think. The main thing is to reach the target and capture it. 300 m / s, all above the speed of the tank wink , unlike the F-15SE attack aircraft, which simply picks up speed and leaves.
            3. If the "Arrow" remained intact, after Toporov and a stray helicopter stepped right on it, then yes, there is a chance of shooting down ... which happened ... But, as it was very sluggish .. Apaches fell badly. Yes, and 2 spaced engines .. increase the chances. Out of 33 damaged, only 1 fell.
            1. +1
              8 September 2017 22: 41
              Quote: mvg
              Out of 33 damaged, only 1 fell

              More in detail as 33 damaged by a rocket of 40 kg. flew away and how did the Afghan dushmans manage to bring down the Rooks by the “Stinger” without speaking about the “Crocodiles”?
              1. mvg
                0
                9 September 2017 22: 24
                Both the Su-25 and Mi-24 have engines located nearby. In contrast, say from the A-10 or Apache. One rocket - both engines. Rocket with thermal GOS .. I think everything is obvious. The Ka-52 corrects this error .. like the Mi-28. Look at the photos of cars.
                There were cases when the A-10 flew without a single engine at all.
                About 33 and one fallen, well, do not be lazy, find yourself .. This is just a statistic of losses in the Bure ..
                PS: By the way, pilots, in case of failure of one engine, in combat conditions, prefer to jump.
                1. 0
                  9 September 2017 22: 33
                  Listen, confess you are a professional military man and troll a sofa expert?
                  Already got from Seryoga troll me angry
                  1. 0
                    9 September 2017 22: 43
                    Quote: KKND
                    Already got from Seryoga troll me

                    I won’t tell you, I don’t like informers myself, if that.
                2. 0
                  31 December 2018 08: 52
                  Su-25 engines nearby? I’ll buy stronger glasses :-)
                  1. mvg
                    0
                    5 January 2019 23: 04
                    I’ll buy stronger glasses :-)

                    Not worth it ...))) But Thunderbolt is still more profitable ... Maximum spaced, and wings closed from the ground ...
                    PS: There was a variant of the Su-25 with one PD-10 engine, instead of two R-195s. It was intended for export, as R-195 is an unfortunate option.
                    https://www.aviaport.ru/conferences/43021/
      2. 0
        8 September 2017 15: 24
        Quote: Bongo
        Relevant

        Hello, hello. You have no data on how much the temperature of the bomb’s body falls from a great height (10-15 km.) When it flies near the ground (1 km)?
        I wonder if a modern thermal imager can see her?
  6. +3
    8 September 2017 10: 46
    In fact, it is in the same niche as Derevation - i.e. an inexpensive and non-weather supplement to Tunguska (which still has plenty of reserves for modernization) or the Shell, if it is nevertheless pushed into the NE.
    Pine has the advantage in range and ceiling (although it is still unclear whether 10/5 km is enough to shoot at the carriers of the TSA), ZAK has universality and survivability
  7. 0
    8 September 2017 12: 09
    It is necessary to add thermal AGSN to the rocket, if there is a breakdown of tracking on the target from the main control module, then the rocket itself will be able to hit the target
    1. +2
      8 September 2017 15: 30
      And to make the cost of the complex even higher ...
      1. +1
        9 September 2017 00: 30
        Quote: KKND
        And to make the cost of the complex even higher ...

        Almost all MANPADS have thermal homing for the target, and this, incidentally, is the cheapest “manual” air defense system. And by the way, if a plane or helicopter breaks through the barrier and strikes, then I think that the losses, both financial and human, will be several orders of magnitude higher than the installation of thermal AGSN on missiles
  8. +7
    8 September 2017 14: 08
    If you squeeze 95% of the water that the author uses in his work, we get the remainder:
    Sosna anti-aircraft missile system is designed to destroy almost all air attack weapons, including WTO type cruise missiles and guided missiles, in the area of ​​responsibility: in range - up to 10 km; in height - up to 5 km.
    It is characterized by the following.
    deployment of missile weapons with a launcher on one combat vehicle, means for detecting and tracking targets, missile control devices in flight, united by a single optoelectronic weapon control system (OESU);
    the use of missile weapons, consisting of 12 high-speed high-precision missiles Sosna-R, placed on launchers, a small mass of which made it possible to exclude the transport-loading machine from the complex;
    the use of missile launcher combat equipment of the optimal configuration, which made it possible to sharply increase the impact efficiency by increasing the mass of separated warheads and the use of a non-contact contact laser fuse with a continuous circular radiation pattern with adaptive blasting time;
    the use of a specially developed original multi-channel automatic high-precision, almost all-weather and all-day OESU;
    the use of a combined missile weapon control system - a radio command system at the launch site, after separating the engine and launching the rocket to the line of sight - tele-orientation in the laser beam;
    providing the ability to detect targets autonomously using OESU with a sector review and in the mode of obtaining automated target designation.
    Technical specifications
    Armament 12 pcs. SAM "Sosna-R"
    Rocket mass in flight / in TPK, kg 28/38
    Caliber before and after rocket separation 130 / 72
    Maximum rocket speed, m/s 900
    Maximum overload, g 40
    Combined guidance system
    Autonomous and centralized operating modes
  9. +6
    8 September 2017 23: 08
    The author of this article very superficially knows the product that he is trying to describe. He didn’t even bother to read the article about the Sosna air defense system on Wikipedia and did not read the photo of the air defense system on the website of A.E. Nudelman Design Bureau of Precision Engineering. And yet, the video shown has long been on the Internet, only in Spanish. It is the “age” of the video that explains that the prototype has a command line unit on it. It has long been “cut out” as an appendix (once again, I remind you of Wikipedia and the site of the design bureau itself). So if there are any radio emissions left in the air defense system, then it is only an NRZ and a radio station. However, being in an ambush, it is not necessary to include the NRH (or only at the last moment), and you can have a connection through the wire.
    In the materials of the design bureau at the Army 2017 exhibition, one could see that the control panel has a completely different, much more convenient appearance. However, the Nudelmanites do not hide that he is not the final version. This is probably what is meant when Wikipedia writes that improvements will be made to the series. However, probably not only the remote control. Still, the air defense system was developed and tested as much as 12 years! Surely a lot is outdated.
    Another false statement is the distribution of tasks between the operator and the computer. In the Sosna air defense system, arbitrary combinations of this distribution are allowed. From "everything the operator does" to "everything the computer does." Another thing is that the operator must monitor the operation of the computer and be ready to intervene in any process in the presence of interference, etc. .. And it’s better for the person to press the START button, especially at the training ground.
    Since there is no radio line in the car, it was removed from the missiles. After the descent, the rocket flies without control, but is soon "picked up" by the control laser beam.
    Speed ​​limits, depending on the type of target - this is a clear mess of the author of the article. It’s just that the figures (probably outdated) show zones for typical targets and their typical speeds. For missiles there is no difference which particular target flies at a speed of 500 m / s. The main thing is that the optics detect it in time (it is better - long before the border of the affected area 10 km), and then - the start and start of the beam. Another thing is if the target does not fly radially on the SAM. Here the laws of mathematics come into force, the design features of SAM and the behavior of the target itself. Obviously, the higher the target’s speed, the more difficult it is to hit it at high altitude or when it deviates horizontally (the so-called “parameter”). And yet, firing at counter targets is the most important difference between Pine and its predecessor and MANPADS. Those usually shoot at catch-up, but if the target wanted to destroy the concealed tank (located in front), then they cannot save it. You can advertise a range of fire from MANPADS for 6-7 km for a long time, but this is good for vehicles flying past (or, more precisely, already flying away), and the air-to-ground missile will not fly past, it will fulfill its task before the MANPADS aim and “capture” target.
    Reasoning about turning "Pine" into "Birds" is amateurism. If the combat module "Pines" put on another carrier, incl. BMD, it will still be "Pine", even if it is taught to parachute. New name means NEW product. Typically, the development of air defense systems is determined by a missile. Perhaps there will be a radar or more sophisticated optics. If the generals want to give the "Pine" on BMD for a new air defense system, it will be just a swindle.

    What else do I want to say.
    Nudelman Design Bureau is located in Moscow, and not in Tula, as someone thinks.
    MTLB, of course, are old, but their dofiga, and they are cheap.
    Wikipedia says that it is recommended to use the KP Build-M1-2. By the way, looking at Barnaul with its 1L122 is very sad. I saw the performance characteristics of this radar on the last "Max". Not impressive. In a real battle, she has nothing to do.
    In conservation, the products do not really rot. Although the replacement of any gum will certainly require. In warehouses there are both Arrows-10 and Shilka. Still, they were made MASSIVE. And no one canceled the overhaul of the broken-down machines.
    SAM for Strel-10 is still not released (the element base is probably out of date). But they are also dofiga. Used to make a cheap target. However, if anyone needs it, no one bothers to develop a new (or almost new) SAM for the old air defense systems.
    Clouds, fog, smoke - all this is an obstacle for optics. But the enemy also does not see ground targets (after all, these are Ground Forces, they are mobile, coordinates quickly become obsolete). If the enemy turns on the airborne radar, then either it will be suppressed by electronic warfare, or its position will be detected by RTR. But Pine in this case is offside.
    Talk about working together with Belarus is some kind of nonsense. Two years ago, an interview with the director of the design bureau flashed that this was supposed in the future, but Sosna was already at the exit. In any case, only the Saratov factory is officially considered a serious co-author of the air defense system.
    To destroy a radial oncoming target, the value of the speed of SAM does not play a role (I repeat, you just need to find it in time). And the main task of Sosny (as earlier with Strela-10 and Shilka) is to cover tanks or armored personnel carriers that go ahead of it.
    Of course, if the enemy knows where the Pine is, he will not fly closer than 10 km. But will he always know about her location? It’s nice to bring down a “turntable” or “lionfish,” but it’s worth spending a missile launcher to save the tank from an air missile. I draw your attention: the main thing is not to destroy the enemy, but to save your own. And if the enemy gape, he was unlucky.
    “Derivation” - to replace “Shilka” (we’ll keep silent about “Tunguska”, there are not very many of them). "Pine" it complements, but does not compete.
    1. 0
      8 September 2017 23: 31
      Quote: volka
      It has long been “cut out” as an appendix (once again, I remind you of Wikipedia and the site of the design bureau itself)

      https://www.kbtochmash.ru/productions-service/def
      ence / Pine.html
      Are my eyes lying to me? About the "Wiki" is not necessary.
      Quote: volka
      And yet, firing at counter targets is the most important difference between Pine and its predecessor and MANPADS.

      Arrow-1,10 just shot at the oncoming ones.
      Quote: volka
      Clouds, fog, smoke - all this is an obstacle for optics. But the enemy also does not see ground targets

      It has long been invented by the thermal imager. Yes, and there are radars on airplanes.
      Quote: volka
      If the enemy turns on the airborne radar, then either it will be suppressed by electronic warfare, or its position will be detected by RTR.

      Will the air defense force crush?
      Summary: The 60s ended a long time ago.
      1. +2
        8 September 2017 23: 53
        Do not believe Vika - trust KB itself. By the way, on the layout of the air defense system, exhibited at Army 2017, this block was not there either.
        I don’t know about Strela-1, but Strela-10 can shoot at counterproponents only theoretically. Like MANPADS, she does not have time to see and capture the target.
        If the plane sees through the fog with the help of a thermal imager, then it will also be visible, and even better. In this case, we return to the duel "the plane is an inconspicuous SAM", and I put on the latter. And it’s already written about airborne radars: turn them on, air guards, give RTR a gift in order to better detect your location.
        Since the 60s are long over, you should not belittle the capabilities of modern electronic warfare equipment. They work quite selectively in both frequency and direction. In eastern Ukraine, air gangsters were immediately “blinded” and “disconnected” from navigation systems.
        1. +1
          9 September 2017 00: 03
          Quote: volka
          And it’s already written about airborne radars: turn them on, air guards, give RTR a gift in order to better detect your location.

          Isn't it easier to spot a plane with a radar than steaming with radio triangulation?
          In addition, the aircraft is a moving target and location will not give much.
          Hint: it’s almost impossible to launch an anti-radar missile on radar radar from a fighter-bomber aircraft.
          1. 0
            9 September 2017 00: 20
            Simpler does not mean better. In modern warfare, both aviation and their antipodes (air defense systems) are trying to the last to maintain secrecy. The plane turned on the radar - he reported about himself, he was spotted and instructed to turn on the radar of air defense systems. If you see at any parades, exercises, etc., that the CP or combat vehicle is traveling with the radar turned on (it turns beautifully !!!) - this is a window dress for tourists or generals. In battle, this will only happen.
            If weather conditions make it possible to do without a radar, use only optics and RTR.
    2. 0
      8 September 2017 23: 53
      At 57 mm anti-aircraft guns, everything is still sad .... without a guided projectile, nothing good will come of it ... The Italians have such a shell from the beginning of the 90s ....
      According to the speed of the SAM, the higher the speed, the faster the fuel burns out and this reduces the combat range ... ideally, you need to have 2 missiles - a low-speed extended range and a high-speed ....
      The rocket speed is this, most likely due to the guidance method .... the target should not have time to escape from under the blow, because it must be highlighted with a laser ..
      1. 0
        9 September 2017 00: 28
        The maximum speed of missiles is limited by the fuel supply, i.e. mass and dimensions of the SAM itself. Fuel burned out, the rear section fell off, and then missiles fly by inertia. Speed, of course, gradually drops. Obviously. that you can’t catch up with a high-speed target. It's a pity, but not scary, because undercover troops this goal is no longer threatening.
  10. +1
    9 September 2017 00: 51
    I rummaged through the network. I found a number of crazy quotes.
    "Hypersonic missiles of the complex ..." Hyper - these are speeds of 5-6 Mach, and not about three.
    “Belarusian experts took part in the development ...” - he already wrote what was written there about something in the future, and the air defense system was already tested.
    “In the basic version, without radar” - for the first time I “hear” about some non-basic version. Maybe there were some ideas 12 years ago? I think that since then there have already been so many other ideas that they were already overgrown with past. Although it’s interesting, is there a non-export version of this SAM in the blanket?

    And there was also a commercial in Russian. For example, https://salda.ws/video.php?id=7JM7YFQoQro.
  11. 0
    10 September 2017 22: 05
    Quote: seos
    At 57 mm anti-aircraft guns, everything is still sad .... without a guided projectile, nothing good will come of it ... The Italians have such a shell from the beginning of the 90s ....
    According to the speed of the SAM, the higher the speed, the faster the fuel burns out and this reduces the combat range ... ideally, you need to have 2 missiles - a low-speed extended range and a high-speed ....
    The rocket speed is this, most likely due to the guidance method .... the target should not have time to escape from under the blow, because it must be highlighted with a laser ..

    Nudelman has long had such a controllable anti-aircraft 57 mm. a shell, but Nudelman has no money for it ..
    1. 0
      13 September 2017 01: 01
      It’s better to create an automated, paired 30 mm ZUSHKu.
  12. 0
    14 September 2017 00: 48
    I’m honestly don’t understand at all what kind of pine tree need a "pine" beech? Is there armor? And why else .... I understand you need to spend money so that for every garbage there is antifigna. To kill with one bullet? Well cut it too. They can’t choose what they need? That anger takes from all this .....
  13. 0
    2 October 2017 22: 05
    Quote: KKND
    imagine smoke at an altitude of 2 km. Of course you can, but this is a unrealistic situation.

    In general, dipole reflectors have been used for several years. And it’s even easier to smoke, let’s say integrate it into a heat trap. Or alternate between thermal and reflective elements. This is KAZ ARENA only on an airplane
  14. +1
    2 October 2017 22: 13
    Quote: Dante
    what kind of pine need a "pine" beech is? Is there armor? And why else .... I understand you need to spend money so that for every garbage there is antifigna. To kill with one bullet?

    No, each rocket costs differently and by the way it’s unlikely that it will be possible to shoot with a beech on a helicopter. In short, a 10 km rocket costs two times less than 40 for example and four than 100. three times cheaper than the Torah, for example, it is justified
  15. 0
    5 October 2017 01: 19
    Kiryusha R.!
    This is called - "you look at the book you see a fig."
    Vmax of goals of 300 m / s is an absolutely small and shameful value, and, of course, it does not in any way correspond to “Pine” (for which this figure is MUCH more). Where you took it, the schedule of the affected area is given in acc. Vc values, but this is nothing more than the values ​​for DGZP and parameter for given speeds (which, I repeat, MUCH higher - already with their values ​​DGZP and BGZP and parameter)