What do Junkers-88 and F-35 have in common?

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What do Junkers-88 and F-35 have in common?


History Junkers



Ju-88A-4, wingspan - 20,08 m, take-off weight - 12 tons.

But is such a story worthy of the most sinister front bomber?

Maybe we should start like this:

Junkers fall sedately
On the wing in the coup,
Hopeless howl sad
Heralds the death of the infantry.


Yes, it was a formidable plane. The length and span of his wing can be easily found in reference books. But who will answer: how did the Junkers differ from others? And why did our soldiers hate him so much?

The main combat quality of Ju.88 was not speed (Mosquito flew faster), bombing accuracy (nothing compares to Stuck), combat load (standard for all planes of its purpose), non-defensive armament (compare TTX of the supplied under the Lend-lease A-20 “Boston”), not combat survivability (the Tu-2 flight from Omsk to Moscow on one engine: the Ju.88 pilots did not dream of that). And even none of the combinations of the listed parameters.

The main advantage of the “Junkers” was a four-meter “hole” in the fuselage. In other words, an unexpectedly large bomb bay for an ordinary front-line bomber.

So what's the problem? Did not others have?

The answer is no. A bomb hole is not just a hole of arbitrary size, covered with sliding doors. This is a place of weakening the power set, in the most heavily loaded place of the fuselage. And the bigger this “hole” is, the more chances the plane has to fall apart in the air.

German engineers were able to construct a sufficiently strong structure that allowed such constructive “nuances”.



Two bomb compartments, which, if desired, turned into one grand pantheon of death.

But this is only half the story. After all, mass and volume are independent parameters.

The Ju.88 combat load mass was standard for its “weight category” (2 tons with take-off weight 12 t). In such a situation, the size of the Ju.88 bomb bay would not matter without one important and little-known detail.

“Junkers” exclusively corresponded to the concept of the use of the Luftwaffe. The Germans did not have “weave” bombs like the Soviet FAB-100. The economical descendants of the Aryans, not without reason, believed that to destroy most targets in the front-line and on the battlefield, the power of the 50-kg bombs was sufficient. Equivalent to 152-mm howitzer projectile with twice the content of explosives. The next caliber after SC.50 was immediately SC.250 (in the jargon - “Ursel”) for more serious tasks.



As a result, the huge “Junkers” bomb bay, according to the standard, was loaded twenty eight 50-kg "hotels" for the enemy infantry. A couple of “Ursel” Germans usually cling to the external holders, for more significant purposes.

As a result, Ju.88 could in one go “Cut out” several times more dispersed targets (manpower and technology) than other front-line bombers of that era.

If necessary, ammunition of other power was placed in its spacious womb - everything up to SC.1800 with the characteristic nickname Satan.



Another less significant, but also an unpleasant surprise was the method of bombing. The Germans not only created a roomy aircraft, but also taught him dive bombing. It is easy to imagine what kind of loads could withstand the remnants of the power set; what remains after the cut-out for a hole the length of a third of the fuselage.

Ju.88 was not an analogue of the legendary “Stucky”, it could attack only at limited dive angles (in theory - to 70 °). By the way, that one did not have a bomb bay at all - only the strongest power set and external bomb racks. Therefore, the Ju.87 dived almost vertically, leaving the peak with an overload of six or more “same”.

In diving 88-th also used bombs exclusively with external suspension. The Junkers did not have a mechanism for removing them outside the bomb bay (similar to the Soviet bomb ram PB-3).

In any case, all this increased the flexibility of application and increased the already high combat capabilities of Ju.88.

In addition, the semi-dive bomber was equipped with a highly sophisticated automatic for its time, allowing the crew to focus on aiming at the time of the bombing. “Junkers” automatically entered into a dive after the release of air brakes and also independently left it after dropping bombs. The automatic machine set the required mode of operation of the engines and, controlling the current overload, set the optimal curvature of the trajectory when leaving the attack.

“In!” - the finished Germanophiles and all those who are used to praise the fascist scientific genius will lift their thumbs up. Flying "Mercedes", automatics. We, Russian Vanka, do not grow to this.

And they will be wrong.

But more about this will be slightly lower.

Let us summarize what has been said.

Junkers-88 front bomber became effective weapons only thanks to the 50-kg bombs, selected as the main caliber of the Luftwaffe. In other conditions, the dimensions of the bomb compartments and bombs Ju.88 would not have significant value, because, I repeat, the weight of the combat load still remained at the level of other aircraft. And the other benefits of “Junkers” did not have.

What is this - a brilliant calculation of the Teutonic engineers? Hardly. Rather, just a coincidence. It is enough to remember the creation story and initial purpose this plane.

Born in the framework of the creation of a high-speed bomber (“shnell-bomber”), Yu-88 failed the expectations of the Luftwafli command. “Junkers” never possessed any outstanding speed qualities and did not meet customer requirements.

During the first tests of the prototype, it was possible to achieve the speed of 580 km / h. But as soon as it came to the series, the speed suddenly dropped to 100 km / h.



As a result, the Germans didn’t succeed in a “snell-bomber”. “Junkers” could not act in a combat situation, relying only on their speed qualities. Like other bombers, they needed defensive weapons and mandatory fighter cover.

Finally, the “shnell-bomber” could not be a normal dive bomber. It is excluded. For high-speed aircraft is characterized by a streamlined appearance. For a dive bomber, bad aerodynamics and maximum air resistance are required. Otherwise, it will accelerate too fast in a dive, so fast that the pilot will not have time to aim. It is no coincidence that the Ju.87 (“bast”, “piece”) had such a monstrous appearance with bulky chassis fairings. Do you think the Germans could not create a mechanism for cleaning the chassis? They did it on purpose.

The only ones who managed to build a real “shnell-bomber” were the British with their amazing “Mosquito”.

Less than 200 downed aircraft of this type (out of thousands of units released from 7,8). 97% lossless combat missions. Not bad for a wooden plane, devoid of any defensive weapons. High-speed reconnaissance bombers bombed and photographed the cities of Vaterland, without paying any attention to the aces of the Luftwaffe. Without any cover, they conducted reconnaissance over the industrial areas of the Ruhr, the Tirpitz site, and carried out courier transportation in the sky of Berlin (Moscow-London air bridge).



The very idea of ​​“shnell-bomber” originated due to the weakness of piston (and first jet) engines, in which the fighters did not have a noticeable advantage over a well-constructed bomber. The best thrust-to-weight ratio of the fighter was leveled by air resistance.

A bomber flying in a straight line could have a higher wing load (a relatively small wing compared to the size of the aircraft).

The concept of a fighter demanded the opposite. Fighters must maneuver and be able to fight each other. The less kilograms falls on each square. meter wing, the easier the wing "deploy" the aircraft. Smaller turn radius. Higher maneuverability.

“How are the wings and turns connected?” - the youngest of the readers will ask.

Airplanes change the direction of flight by creating a roll in one direction or another (the work of the ailerons). As a result, the lift decreases on the “lower” wing and increases on the raised wing. This creates a moment of power, which unfolds the aircraft.

However, we are very enthusiastic about aerodynamics. In practice, everything looked the obvious way. The creators of "Moskit" managed to build a bomber, flying faster fighters. And the creators of “Junkers” - no.

Here it is - level. Shadow Teutonic genius. Unrivaled German technology.

The speed shortage is not the last problem of Ju.88.

On the posters "Junkers" menacingly bristled with trunks in all directions. What is the reality? The number of machine guns was twice the number of crew members.

Not everyone has the art of reading subtle hints. If there are more machine guns than shooters, then only some of them can fire at a time.



As soon as the enemy fighter left the shooting zone, the “Junkers” arrow needed to roll over on the other side, make the next machine gun for firing and again catch the enemy in the sight. The problem is still the same, given the tightness of the cabin and the bulkiness of flight uniforms.

It is clear that Ju.88 is not an American “Super Fortress” with automatic remote turrets. But even with the usual turret installations, the German geniuses did not get along.

Just as affected by the lack of designers Shpitalnogo and Komaritsky, who designed the most rapid-fire aviation machine gun rifle caliber. In terms of fire density, the German MG-15 and MG-81 are never the Soviet ShKAS.

Another characteristic flaw is the layout of the Ju.88. In an effort to save space, the Germans placed the entire crew in a single, too compact cabin, on each other’s heads. Motivating the opportunity to replace the wounded member of the crew.

In practice, an anti-aircraft shell that exploded near killed the entire crew on the spot. And because of this arrangement, the arrows experienced problems with the control of the rear hemisphere. The tail point of fire at the “Junkers” was not available.

Life at the shooters Ju.88 was like a mockery. The one who had to follow the lower hemisphere, the whole flight was writhing on the bench, under the pilot's legs. He crawled to his machine gun only when an enemy appeared.

Despite the protection of the fuel tanks and the duplication of all the oil and gas systems, the combat survivability of the Ju.88 looked doubtful. A drill pilot of average qualification had almost no chance to bring a damaged aircraft on one engine. “Junkers” obstinately turned and pulled to the ground. In this case, the motors themselves had no protection.

Yes, this is not the Tu-2, which flew on one engine as if in normal mode (a record flight from Omsk to Moscow).

The most massive Luftwaffe bomber was mediocre in everything. The only thing he could do better than others was to throw small caliber bombs. Better than him, only the devil himself could.

And if necessary, could hit and 1000-kg “Gerda”, and almost two-ton “Satan”.

Ultimately The widest range of bomb weapons and the combat flexibility of the Ju.88 proved to be the most valuable quality in front conditions.

Vanka

As of 1941, the year in the Soviet Union was a front-line bomber, on which (attention) an automatic flight system was also installed, which controlled the aircraft at the time of the attack.

Mysterious and legendary Ap 2.



Soviet designers went their own way. Instead of many small “mines” - the accuracy of the strike. As a result despite being smaller, the Ap 2 could have dropped twice the combat load in a divethan Ju.88. All this thanks to the bomb-holder PB-3, which took the bombs out of the bomb bay when diving to the target.

Ease of piloting - easy to learn for wartime sergeants. And these were not simple words. In the regiments flying on the Pe-2, 30% of the aircraft were constantly inefficient due to the broken landing gear.

The design is unified with the SB bomber. Redesigned were the nose of the fuselage and propeller group.

Unavoidable flaws, like any other technology. A matter of time and continuous improvement in design. The path along which all the famous aircraft.



Art-2, masterpiece aircraft. The team of the Arkhangelsk Design Bureau is the undisputed winner of the Constructors' Championship on the eve of the war.

On June 1, 1941, as part of the Red Army Air Force, there was already an 164 combat-capable bomber of this type. Why was the serial production of the AR-2 in favor of the more complex and less efficient Pe-2? There is no clear answer to this day. Historians agree that the Ap 2 interrupted its flight due to the lack of a clear concept of the use of the KA Air Force.

But most importantly - they could. The plane, constructively superior to its “classmate”, was a German front-line bomber Ju.88.

Conceptual successor of “Junkers”

Seven decades later, on the path, beaten Yu-88, is the next plane. F-35 “Lightning”.

The analogy is obvious. See:

Like the failed fascist “shnell-bomber”, the modern “Lightning” counts on one, promising, in theory, direction. Only this time, instead of speed, stealth.

And once again, the concept fails. One selected quality is not enough for independent action in a combat situation.

Like the “Junkers-88”, the new combat aircraft is the object of the most severe criticism. Experts describe many flaws and question the flight performance of the F-35, assessing them at best as “moderate”.

Among the positive qualities are the flight and aim complex of the new generation, full automation of the aircraft. The pilot was able to focus on aiming and target selection in battle. All other parameters and systems of the F-35 are controlled by 8 with millions of lines of program code.

After all, it is also a reference to the ideas embodied in the construction of Ju.88. The pilot released air brakes, then “Junkers” understood everything without words. The action algorithm for the attack mode was launched. The crew remained only to fly to the ground, remembering all the saints, holding the crosshair on the selected target.

But this is too little for successful actions in a combat situation.

The creators of the F-35 could not even know about the German “Junkers”. In technical terms, there is no connection between them (and there can not be). But the ideas that Americans use are confirmed by the Luftwaffe combat experience.

A combat aircraft is a structural element of the armed forces and the military-industrial complex as a whole. It can not be considered without taking into account the characteristics of its weapons.

Like Ju.88, the new “Lightning” surpasses all existing multi-role fighters in the number and variety of combinations of weapons (and in their use at the expense of advanced sighting tools). The F-35 project integrates almost all NATO aircraft munitions to destroy aerial, land and sea targets.

Finally, the amount. The Germans, realizing the military value of the Yu-88, built during the war years 15 thousands of bombers of this type. Luftwaffe “workhorse” The most massive bomber in history.

Americans with rare persistence solve the “Lightning” problems and go to the stated goal - to equip the Air Force with a single (main) type of multi-purpose aircraft. As a result, today the F-35 is becoming the most popular fighter of the 5 generation.

In this sense, it is much easier for them. All new solutions are first studied in the form of computer models. The Germans did not have computers; as a result, all the first 10 pre-series Ju.88 were defeated in plane crashes.

As you may have guessed, this article is not a story about any particular type of aircraft. This is just an attempt to rethink some well-known facts in the field of military aviation and to understand why the simple often seems difficult and difficult, on the contrary, simple.

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110 comments
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  1. +6
    23 August 2017 07: 06
    It’s not entirely clear that OLEG revealed the place of the F-35 in the American army ... what are its main tasks in the modern war ... to be a fighter of conquest in the air or to be a workhorse for everything suitable ???. what
    1. +18
      23 August 2017 11: 38
      What do Junkers-88 and F-35 have in common are both excellent cars, like it or not!
    2. +1
      23 August 2017 15: 43
      Not quite clear

      I think the author just watched the film "Cloud Atlas" and inspired the article.
      1. +5
        13 September 2017 17: 44
        Again Kaptsov lied - that surprised me especially
        Quote: Oleg Kaptsov
        Finally, the amount. The Germans, realizing the military value of the Yu-88, built during the war years 15 thousands of bombers of this type. Luftwaffe “workhorse” The most massive bomber in history.

        The author, obviously, has not heard of such a machine as the B-24 Liberator.
        Well or that
        Quote: Oleg Kaptsov
        The most massive Luftwaffe bomber was mediocre in everything. The only thing he could do better than others was to throw small caliber bombs. Better than him, only the devil himself could.

        I do not know about the progenitor of evil, but the good old IL-2 with KMB charged two hundred either fragmentation FB, or cumulative PTAB, or incendiary AF, in terms of a "universal infantry mower" (like a "tank crusher") was more terrible.
        KMB loading scheme

        Get the support! (In the photo, the Yak-9 fighter, IL-2 took one and a half times more small bombs in the KMB with a total of about 200)

        There is a hit!
  2. +12
    23 August 2017 07: 22
    There is only one conclusion - there is no universal machine, but there is a niche where it can find its place. I agree. All according to Prutkov: each person necessarily benefits, being consumed in the right place.
    It remains to determine a similar place for F-35. But the matter cannot be solved by the masses, all the more so by such an expensive mass.
  3. +13
    23 August 2017 07: 24
    It turns out a monstrous lappethorian only then to reduce speed. And why did they take their bast shoes into the fairings? By virtue of the Teutonic inconsistency. And as for lightning, he is not the only one. And one of the many others and so far does not plan to be the only one, and this one is already in three versions. And do not write about generations. Not the fifth single alive.
    1. +4
      23 August 2017 10: 21
      Quote: Ken71
      It turns out a monstrous lappethorian only then to reduce speed. And why did they take their bast shoes into the fairings? By virtue of the Teutonic inconsistency.
      of course! laughing nor did they hear anything about the brake grilles
    2. +2
      24 August 2017 22: 53
      what you confuse is the Lappteller’s U-87 “thing”, and in the U-88 article he doesn’t have any “bast shoes” either.
  4. +5
    23 August 2017 07: 58
    In terms of fire density, the German MG-15 and MG-81 are never Soviet ShKAS.

    MG-81 had a firing rate slightly inferior to ShKAS - 1600v / m. It was easier and simpler.
    1. +11
      23 August 2017 08: 09
      In, germanofily here as here

      Quote: BORMAN82
      In terms of fire density, the German MG-15 and MG-81 are never Soviet ShKAS.

      MG-81 had a firing rate slightly inferior to ShKAS - 1600v / m. It was easier and simpler.


      Borman forgot to add that by the time the MG.81 appeared, the ShKAS had already been produced for at least five years, and the relevance of aircraft machine guns of rifle caliber had decreased significantly. The Soviet attack aircraft and bombers by that time began to be equipped with 12,7 mm UBS. The Americans fired storm fire from the 50 caliber of Browning
      1. +2
        23 August 2017 09: 35
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        In, germanofily here as here

        "ShKASofily" also did not take long to wait)))
  5. +18
    23 August 2017 08: 03
    I don’t know what advantages Oleg found, but at the very beginning of the war, the Fritz began to cut him a replacement in the form of Ju-288, which failed due to engines. As a result, began to produce a hybrid Ju-188. In general, it’s fair to compare it with our Tu-2, although it has a take-off weight of a couple of tons lower, and even closer to the EP-2. And why did they start to saw it? wassat Yes, everything is simple, it is a surrogate for a heavy bomber because of the lack thereof. He is a good front-line bomber, and in the niche of application there should have been an unsuccessful He-177, which indirectly says the take-off weight is 288 as much as 22,5 tons. Speed ​​taschemta nothing to do with it. And the bomb bay too. And even the notorious versatility.

    In terms of Ar-2, this is our good old SB. A great airplane for its time. In principle, it was not even very outdated, since the fuselage in the manner of the Yak-25 allowed the design to be developed for another ten years. I also think that it was very in vain that they abandoned the Ar-2 in favor of the Pe-2, which was created on the basis of a fighter and did not have a normal bomb bay. And only Myasishchev finished at the end of the war Pe-2I.

    Talking about the Penguin is somehow uncomfortable. A supersonic yeroplane that does not know how to open a bomb bay on supersonic is enough to look at the wings. Its dimensions are no less dubious. Energy ratio below unity, aggravated by a single-engine layout. These are all fatal flaws, as the electronics and engines can be fixed, but not dramatically improved, otherwise you will have to essentially develop a new plane. Well, according to the promoted concept as a fighter-bomber, it is again awkward. Let's say the Strike Eagle and Su-30SM have weapons on board the operator, they carry a lot, albeit not so much as the Su-34, which is basically useful for guided weapons, allowing the pilot to focus on control and the operator on target. Because automation is not good, but control is needed. Yes, and how to aim a television-guided bonbu? Again, laser target illumination (for the Su-30SM in the near future it will be relevant with the adoption of the T-220). And do not forget about the role as a navigator, which is extremely useful in difficult flight conditions. And the fact that they say it will fly on a machine gun, while the pilot impressively aim the bomb in the window, in combat conditions, although it is too synthetic. Although of course I do not argue, it is possible, but for a front-line fighter, for which attack on ground targets is not a priority. Not a Penguin bomber, no. Just a shitty fighter trying to pretend to be.
    1. +2
      23 August 2017 12: 53
      Quote: kugelblitz
      In terms of Ar-2, this is our good old SB. A great airplane for its time.


      And what is beautiful in the Security Council besides speed - until 1937 (before the appearance of the Security Council bis)? No - if you compare with the Ju-52, then of course the SB is fine.

      The bomb load for the twin-engine bomber is minuscule - 600 kg (two to three times lower than that of the He-111 frankist aircraft - 1500 kg, Savoia-Marchetti SM.79 - 1250 kg).
      The practical range seems to be quite good, but at maximum speed it drops three times - again, for a twin-engine bomber - not a sufficiently large range. Small arms - weak (hope for speed) - at high speeds it is impossible to turn the turret (no hydraulic drive), poor visibility back.
      Bombing from the horizon - not high precision. He already in Spain by 1937 was ineffective for the above reasons.
      Especially with regard to the bomb load - to solve the problem, it was necessary to appoint either a twice as large outfit of bombers (which was not possible in Spain), or conduct repeated raids, which led to losses.
      1. +5
        23 August 2017 19: 08
        The SB of the first modifications had engines with a capacity of only 750 forces. The bis-modification with the M-103 power of 960 hp brought to overload up to 1500 kg. A Ar-2 with M-105 standard up to 1600 kg. And now the latter has already learned to dive bombing, in contrast to Henkel, who himself was created on the basis of a passenger plane, which played negatively with him later. The hawk, on the other hand, was in a different class and, again, did not know how to dive, he also cut the pax by the way. In general, it is stupid to compare incomplete 7-8 tons of SB, 10 tons of 111th and 11 tons of SM-79, while Henkel was inferior to 100 km / h at maximum speed, and 700 km range. And the concept of an extremely shrunken bomber with weak defensive weapons turned out to be tenacious, the same Mosquito, or Canberra with the Yak-28 are generally bare. The problem of the Security Council is that it appeared too early, there simply were no engines at that moment, at the same time the fuselage itself made it possible to squeeze out all 600 km / h of it. If he remained in the ranks, then he would have gained gain with guns and new engines, and indeed Pawn would have been much more useful. Therefore, I do not consider the SB obsolete, otherwise the Bf-109, which had three of the 7,9 mm machine guns, and the maximum speed is comparable to the SB, will also have to be called obsolete. By the way, the Czechs produced it under a license under the brand name Avia B.71. For me, the SB and Ar-2 were generally excellent planes, read a lot about them, collected information, they had excellent ultralight engines, a large bomb bay, completely hiding the entire load, decent range, good maneuverability that allowed hunting bombers of the enemy, protected tanks. This series was simply cut off at the wrong time, and so they could have quietly fought before Victory with a fair amount of modernization.

        1. +1
          24 August 2017 07: 59
          Is it news (or an alternative story?) That SB and Ar-2 had protected tanks? Actual practice of the 132nd regiment showed that the Ar-2 bomb load during dive bombing was 4xFAB100, with a maximum speed of 470-480. One shooter worked in the back hemisphere.
          1. +1
            24 August 2017 09: 26
            large bomb bay hiding the entire load


            The Ar-2 bombotsek did not take ALL the load into itself. At maximum load, a third of it was hung on external nodes.
    2. +3
      24 August 2017 23: 07
      Well, the fact that the author and commentators are clearly missing out on both the “German” and the “American” in real military operations need squadrons of cover fighters that counteract air defense fighters, a strike on ground air defense, then yes, they will destroy the infantry)) And if Air defense will snap, and if ground stations detect Lightning on the way and air and ground defense systems begin to counteract them? And how many air-to-air missiles will take lightning and at the same time bomb load? After all, he remains alone, without any kind of attack aircraft and other f-15/16 - according to the American version. And if it’s on an external sling, then what the hell is invisibility, and even in the active mode of the airborne radar? Well, that is, questions for comp modeling, and not at all for a short, albeit informative article bully
  6. +25
    23 August 2017 08: 39
    The concept of surprising the reader by comparing the fifth point with a finger is already degenerating in my opinion. Last time, I remember trying to convince us that the I-16 was faster than the MiG-15, now we’ve gotten up to speed with Yu-88. It turned out boring and not convincing.


    Yu-88 - "Oleg, I'm an old sick bomb carrier, why did you hesitate with me with your f-35?"
  7. +4
    23 August 2017 08: 51
    The fact that the Yu-88 was built 15k, this is actually an accident multiplied by unjustified optimism. As well as the fact that the swallow did not go into the series at the end of 43 years.
    As a result, by the end of the war they had the worst air forces, only Japan was worse.
    Both there and there, wise German generals miscalculated. In the first case, they hoped that this bomber would end the war, in the second they missed the emergence of a new generation of USSR machines (aluminum appeared in sufficient quantities) and allies (however, Merlin plus two-row scary stars).
    By the way, for some reason, the topic of SB and TB-3 as WWII bombers is little disclosed, although they managed to fight a lot.
    1. +2
      23 August 2017 10: 30
      Quote: demiurg
      topic ... TB-3 in the role of WWII bombers little disclosed

      famous scene from the movie "Living and the Dead."
  8. +2
    23 August 2017 08: 52
    Mysterious and legendary Ap 2.

    And what is mysterious and legendary about this plane? Deep modernization of SB-2bis.
    http://www.airpages.ru/ru/ar2.shtml
    1. +14
      23 August 2017 09: 29
      By the way, the crew remained the same -3 people and the fourth could not be shoved from the word in any way. It is clear that one shooter could not shoot from the upper and lower installations. Yes, and the review sectors left much to be desired - after all, the SB was once licked at high speed. Survivability also remained at the SB level. To fix all this, it was necessary to create a new aircraft, which was done.
      As for the 88th, the zwilling spark was often replaced by one MG-131, and MG-FF was put in the nose.
      And one more thing - Mosquito, with all its undoubted merits, was not a front-line bomber. , make a raid in the rear of the prison or the Gestapo headquarters - this is welcome, but bomb the fuel depot in the front line, covered by FLAKs and where fighters almost always graze - these are already classic bombers.
      1. +2
        23 August 2017 10: 35
        Quote: sivuch
        And one more thing - Mosquito, with all its obvious advantages, was not a front-line bomber.
        and in the last period it was more often used in the role of leader, rather than the actual bomber
      2. 0
        9 March 2018 08: 09
        I happened to be inside SB-2. My height is 182. And I don’t understand how the crew could fly there. The pilots of that time were real heroes by flying these airplanes. There is no place inside. No review, no convenience (not only accommodation, but defensive weapons to use), the tightness is staggering. Got on a plane and sit as climbed. All. And I climbed there in ordinary clothes, and not flying, including in winter.
  9. +6
    23 August 2017 08: 55
    Design - unified with SB bomber

    It’s not unified, and this is it, because Ar-2 is an option to upgrade the Sat into a dive. Arkhangelsky was a leading designer for high-speed SB machines and their modifications.
    The team of the Arkhangelsk Design Bureau is the undisputed owner of the Design Cup on the eve of the war.

    This is a strange statement, because on the eve of the war Arkhangelsky was subordinate to Tupolev in TsKB-29 of the NKVD - a sharashka. The independent design bureau was short-lived and it was engaged in introducing into production and modernization options for the Tupolev machine at the plant in Fili.
    1. 0
      23 August 2017 10: 38
      Quote: Engineer
      this is it, because the Ar-2 is an option to upgrade the Sat into a dive
      the same topic was with the modernization of Polikarpov's aircraft for new engines. But another trend prevailed ..
    2. +1
      23 August 2017 16: 36
      It seems to me that just Arkhangelsky didn’t end up in Sharagu, having remained at liberty, and was engaged in the modernization of the Security Council, while Tupolev worked on the “103” in TsKB-29.
  10. +7
    23 August 2017 09: 16
    What do Junkers-88 and F-35 have in common?
    Both are created in empires that were or will be crushed by the weight of their greatness, coolness and invincibility.
  11. +3
    23 August 2017 09: 22
    “Airplanes change the direction of flight by creating a roll in one direction or another (by the work of ailerons). As a result, the lift on the“ lower ”wing decreases, and on the raised wing it increases. This creates a moment of forces, which turns the plane.”
    Well, he wrote a damn, now, after all, young readers will really think that the plane is turning around with ailerons .. hehe. Maybe all the same, the ailerons for the roll, and turn around the elevator, no? And the allowable angle of attack depends on the wing area, and not just “turn” abilities.
    1. +1
      23 August 2017 10: 19
      Quote: heruv1me
      “Airplanes change the direction of flight by creating a roll in one direction or another (by the work of ailerons). As a result, the lift on the“ lower ”wing decreases, and on the raised wing it increases. This creates a moment of forces, which turns the plane.”
      Well, he wrote a damn, now, after all, young readers will really think that the plane is turning around with ailerons .. hehe. Maybe all the same, the ailerons for the roll, and turn around the elevator, no? And the allowable angle of attack depends on the wing area, and not just “turn” abilities.


      Is it a banter or do you really think that the plane is turning at the helm?
      1. 0
        23 August 2017 10: 37
        And banter and not banter, of course, when the wings are tilted by ailerons, part of the lift force created by them deviates to the side, and we compensate for the loss of height by the elevator. But, if we are talking about a combat aircraft and the need to make an energetic U-turn, will the pilot really make a steady turn, no, he will put the aircraft almost on the knife and pull the Rus with all the dope.
      2. The comment was deleted.
        1. 0
          23 August 2017 10: 53
          Do not write nonsense. The elevator is used only to increase the angle of attack. The established turn can be performed without it.
          1. 0
            23 August 2017 11: 02
            What is it like? With a crazy power margin? It still won’t work.
            1. 0
              23 August 2017 11: 16
              I did not write about the CORRECT established turn (although here, in my opinion, there are options).
          2. +1
            23 August 2017 12: 10
            Do not write nonsense. The elevator is used only to increase the angle of attack. The established turn can be performed without it.

            Rather, without a rudder, perform a turn, than without a RV and ailerons. :) Take a look at
            1. 0
              23 August 2017 12: 27
              Truth? Can you describe the technique of performing a turn?
              1. 0
                23 August 2017 16: 53
                For a classic aerodynamic design, or for a wing aircraft? In any case, in the turn you will have to maintain the angle of attack to create overload. How and what will you do without the elevator?
      3. +2
        23 August 2017 11: 41
        The aircraft is driven by roll ailerons, pitch by elevator, in the direction rudder. And it unfolds a combination of steering effects. And there are several ways to turn around. But maneuverability is not a reversal. Maneuverability is disposable overload.
      4. +1
        23 August 2017 18: 59
        When to stand on a knife and the rudder is only for parry. If you don’t have your own plane, I advise you to try any flight simulator better of course IL-2
    2. 0
      23 August 2017 10: 41
      Quote: heruv1me
      Well, damn it
      yeah .. to draw where the vector of power is directed was laziness, I had to write this ..
    3. +4
      23 August 2017 12: 07
      Well, he wrote a damn, now, after all, young readers will really think that the plane is turning around with ailerons .. hehe. Maybe all the same, the ailerons for the roll, and turn around the elevator, no? And the allowable angle of attack depends on the wing area, and not just “turn” abilities ..

      Generally true. With the exception of one, the “permissible angle of attack” does not depend on the wing area. No way. Depends on the wing profile and flight speed. The lift force depends on the wing area, angle of attack, air density and speed. Zhukovsky's formula to help!
      1. 0
        23 August 2017 13: 22
        Oh, Doublet, hello from the 72nd!
        The angle of attack affects the lift of the wing, being in direct proportion with it, respectively, the maximum angle of attack cannot be unrelated to the area of ​​the wing
        1. 0
          23 August 2017 13: 36
          No wonder they came up with slats, the effect of which is to increase the permissible angle of attack, and due to what?
          1. 0
            23 August 2017 15: 35
            You are poorly taught in the 72nd. wink
            Υ = Cy * p * V * V * S / 2 - the lifting force of the wing. Where in this formula is the dependence of the angle of attack on the area? Su, - it depends on the angle of attack, but this is an empirical coefficient, determined experimentally for a given wing profile. Slats slow the development of stall flow from the wing while increasing the angle of attack over Alpha crit. But the wing area here is again out of business.
    4. 0
      23 August 2017 19: 11
      I would advise you to start by looking at the plane, since in aerodynamics you rummage much less than the author. Pass the re-examination - welcome to VO
  12. +2
    23 August 2017 09: 55
    The beginning is intriguing, but at the end zilch. I wanted some conclusions, conclusions - there is simply no operative part in the article. Sorry.
  13. +1
    23 August 2017 10: 26
    And what is so outstanding about being able to carry 28 50 kg bombs? The same He-111 could carry up to 32 of these bombs. What is Boston’s defensive armament that is far superior to that of the Ju-88?
    Further, even reading is not interesting.
  14. +5
    23 August 2017 10: 31
    A small military episode, not about Yu-88, most likely about Yu-87B or D:
    Memoirs

    "... Cool Fritz bombed!
    Our howitzers stood on a hill under a low hillock to the right of a frail grove. There were swamps around, and besides this place to put the guns so that the Germans could not see them from the ground, there was nowhere ... The trenches with guns were masked with masks, and fresh greenery was thrown on top. But all the same, four equidistant mounds spoke to the observer from the sky about the artificiality of objects.
    Early in the morning, a “frame” appeared in the sky - a German two-body reconnaissance aircraft, appeared early in the morning, when various targets reveal themselves most clearly in the rays of the rising sun ...
    ... I was the senior on the battery, that is, the officer who is responsible for the guns, calculations, accuracy and is the deputy commander of the battery ...
    ... As soon as we sat down between the beds of the guns, we adjusted the pots on our knees, and some already brought spoons to our mouths, a roar of terrible power came from above, and the yellow-bellied Junkers jumped out from behind the grove to our left at a small height "- he had already dropped bombs and, emerging from the peak, turned up. The whistle of falling bombs drowned in an infernal howl of a motor, the roar of the plane deafened us, and before we could come to our senses, a meter from us, at the right wheel of the howitzer, a bomb crashed into the ground almost under a gun carriage. The whole trench, along with the cannon, shuddered and seemed to have jumped from a powerful blow, the cannon nearly fell over, the soil went beneath us, in horror we opened our mouths, froze in anticipation ... - everyone managed to imagine how the howitzer flies upside down as it sweeps up the explosive wave of those sitting near the firemen and, as a result, remains a huge funnel, from the high bulk edges of which only the beds of howitzers and the arms and legs of the gunners stick out ...
    But there was no explosion. Falling almost on the gun, the bomb did not explode.
    - Quickly to the ditches! - my team rang out, there was a chance that the bomb was a timed one.
    Not having time to recover, the battery men rushed headlong into the roving mustache, and then I jumped. Two ... three minutes passed ... - there is still no explosion. How to understand this? ... Sliding along the rough walls of the well, the beam abuts against the surface of dirty water, half a meter not reaching the edges of the dent. The unexploded bomb itself disappeared into the swamp soil.
    “Are you alive there?” - they shout to us from the second gun. - Our bomb fell under a howitzer and did not explode, there are no losses.
    I’m going to see what happened to the other three howitzers. That they are intact, and so it can be seen for one and a half hundred meters, but it’s interesting where the bombs fell. Going around all the gun trenches, I saw the same thing: near the wheel of each howitzer there was a hole the size of a bucket - and nothing more.
    - How precisely the "frame" spotted us!
    - And on the tip of the Junkers, like potatoes in the holes, he dropped bombs! - discuss batteries what happened.
    “You have to bomb it so accurately!” - admires Sergeant Brailko, the commander of the fourth gun. - Literally put a bomb under each howitzer. What an ace!
    “If they exploded, there would have been such funnels,” the gunner Osetsky spread his hands to the sides, “and the batteries were gone!”
    I am also amazed: each of the four bombs fell exactly under the wheel of the howitzer intended for her. But these conversations for the glory of the German pilot do not need us: they will certainly convey it, you won’t get into trouble.
    “I bombed it well, as it should be, but why not a single bomb exploded, that’s the question!” - I take my soldiers away from unnecessary conversation.
    - Maybe the swamp soil worked like a shock absorber?
    - What does the shock absorber have to do with it, they should explode as soon as they touch the soil.
    “It's all about the fuse, guys,” I explain, “if there were normal fuses, the whole battery would fly up into the air ...”
    - Imagine how the German pilot was grieving when he looked back. Looking for explosions, but no explosions!
    - Lucky for us. For the first time in the entire war, I see that out of four bombs, not one explodes.
    Indeed, we are all lucky, otherwise there would be nothing left of us. But - our happiness ... "
    episode from the memoirs of Mikhin Pyotr Alekseevich
    "Gunners, Stalin gave the order!"
    Here is an episode of military luck ...
    1. +5
      23 August 2017 11: 15
      The Lapporteurs bombed very accurately. The problem was to dial
      for them pilots. When exiting a steep peak, overload was
      such that both the pilot and the shooter (they sat back to back) lost
      for a second consciousness. Many pilots after several sorties
      could not stand it and switched to other aircraft.
      They recruited, of course, only volunteers. And only such
      pitching-athletes-psychos like Rudel lingered on and flew the whole war on the U-87.
      1. +2
        23 August 2017 12: 31
        .... and suffered greater losses than fighters.
      2. +2
        23 August 2017 13: 16
        Quote: voyaka uh
        The problem was to dial
        for them pilots. When exiting a steep peak, overload was
        such that both the pilot and the shooter (they sat back to back) lost
        for a second consciousness.


        That’s why the Ju-87 was equipped with a dive deduction automatic.
        Rudel does not look like a psycho - a prudent, cold-blooded pilot - yes.
        To incapacitate a T-34 brigade by shooting it with an MTO from 45mm Ju-87G cannons - only a very cold-blooded son of a bitch is capable of this!
        -
        1. +6
          23 August 2017 13: 46
          Yes, and it’s also called Hans Christian Ruddel.
        2. +4
          23 August 2017 15: 22
          In one, you are unconditionally right. Poodle-Moodle is definitely a FOOT SON! He is a liar, what the world has not seen! You have a mistake - there were no mention of 45 mm guns on the Yu-87G! There were 37 mm Flak-18 guns. And about the “destruction of the T-34 tank brigade,” as you say, please read: “... At the same time, a sub-caliber projectile for VK VK, having an initial velocity of about 3.7 m / s when shooting in the air (according to the SRI SC ), from a distance of up to 1170 m he could penetrate Soviet tank armor up to 400 mm thick at an angle of 52 °. The armor-piercing projectile from the ammunition for this gun could not boast of such a result - from 0 m at an angle of 400 ° the projectile could penetrate only 0 mm armor and the "thirty-four" of all types were not affected by attacks from any direction ... It would seem The Ju40G-87 is an effective means of hitting the Soviet “thirty-fours.” In reality, everything turned out to be slightly different. An analysis of the booking scheme of the Soviet T-1-34 medium tank and the capabilities of the German gun VK 76 shows that at planning angles of Ju3.7G-87 it is about 1-5 ╟ a caliber projectile for a cannon could penetrate the 10 mm armor of the thirty-four turret only when firing from a distance of not more than 52 m, and 180-mm side armor - no more than 40 m. However, the effective firing time was 400 seconds and 1,3 sec respectively (minimum permissible height for maneuver at the exit of 4,4-15 m, ceasefire distance of about 20 m). That is, only one shell could be "effective" when a tower was hit, and a maximum of two shells when a side was hit. But getting into the vulnerable parts of the tank, given their small areas, even with one shot, is not as easy as it seems. At the same time, one or two hits with penetration of armor, as you know, is not enough to reliably disable the tank ..... "
          In language, in the case of the "cold-blooded Moodle" you can destroy all the armored forces of the Red Army in general ... At that, you don’t have to turn over the bags!
          1. +6
            23 August 2017 15: 25
            And with the T-34-85 it was still more difficult to look: "... The defeat of the T-34-85 tank, which had enhanced armor, was not ensured at an attack from the side (side - 45 mm, turret - 75 mm) at any distance When attacking from behind, the defeat of T-34-85 was possible only if the projectile hit the rear of the turret (armor thickness 52 mm) from distances up to 400 m. Supervisory armor and armor of the roof of the tower of the Soviet “thirty-four” of all types were hit by a caliber projectile to VK 3.7 cannon when firing from 300 m only at diving angles of at least 30╟. At planning angles of up to 10╟ shooting from any distance yielded continuous ricochets. Estimates show that in real combat conditions the likelihood of a medium-sized Soviet T-34 tank being hit in one go when firing with VC 3.7 cannon shells (side attack, planning angle 5-10╟, firing range 300 -400 m), in the best “scenario”, it could not exceed 0,02-0,03, which means that to guarantee the defeat of the Soviet “thirty-four” on the battlefield, an outfit of forces of fifty Ju87G was required ... "As for moodle and the like there is a good source ("Pieces of the Stunt pilot" - not counting) -O.Rastrenin "Luftwaffe attack aircraft - myths and reality." I advise you to read, many eyes will open.
          2. +2
            23 August 2017 15: 33
            “a caliber projectile for a cannon could penetrate the 52 mm armor of the thirty-four tower” ///

            They fired from the attack aircraft not in the forehead of the tower, but in the engine compartment from above, going behind.
            By the way, there were light machine guns on the Laptezhniki that recorded hits (or misses).
            Therefore, Rudel did not have to "roll his tongue." He simply handed over the film for inspection to officers, and they decided how much he knocked out.
            Neither colleagues nor officers loved him precisely for arrogance, ardent fanaticism-Nazism and
            contempt for the rest of the pilots for the fact that they could not (physically) make several sorties per day, like him.
            1. +4
              23 August 2017 16: 00
              Moodle fell into barrels with a solarium, attached to the aft of the tank, the solarium began to smoke, FKP recorded "smoking" thirty-fours - Moodle was written a "victory" ... And the tank crew threw off the smoking tank or put out it and successfully went into battle! Where is the "victory of the Moodle" here? Well, as for the large number of sorties, since almost 44 years old, almost all “panzer and backlash” waffes have been sitting on amphitamins ... A tranquilizer is a drug with a hallucinogenic effect that relieves fatigue! Here you have it all .... to the penny! Details- Oleg Rastrenin "Luftwaffe attack aircraft. Myths and reality."
              1. +3
                23 August 2017 17: 27
                "got into barrels with solarium, attached to the stern of the tank,
                the solarium began to smoke, the FKP recorded "smoking" thirty-fours - Mudel wrote "victory" ////

                The solarium did not start to smoke, but to burn.
                And that a burning diesel fuel from a tank pierced by a shell is not dangerous for the tank?
                She can not drain into the motor? In "Myths" such cases were not considered?
                1. +5
                  24 August 2017 05: 28
                  Quote: voyaka uh
                  The solarium did not start to smoke, but burned. And that a burning diesel fuel from a tank pierced by a shell is not dangerous for the tank? It can not drain into the engine?

                  Well, how can I tell you ... She could drain on the armor to the rinks and tracks, because additional tanks were below the MTO shutters.

                  But the paint - yes, as if spoiled ...
                  In the memoirs of some of our tankmen (if I’m not mistaken, on the Su-76) just such a case is described.
                  And a good analysis here: http://www.soldiering.ru/avia/airplane/ww2/battle
                  -plane.php
            2. +5
              23 August 2017 16: 09
              Quote: voyaka uh
              Therefore, Rudel did not have to "roll his tongue." He just handed over the film to the officers for verification, and they decided how much he knocked out

              Well, something I did not see kilometers of footage of the destruction of hundreds of t-34, I wonder why?
              1. +5
                23 August 2017 16: 45
                These kilometers of Rudel and Hartman films - Russian barbarians burned in the bonfires during the preparation of WHEAT Porridge!
              2. Alf
                +4
                23 August 2017 21: 36
                Quote: tomket
                Well, something I did not see kilometers of footage of the destruction of hundreds of t-34, I wonder why?

                The films mysteriously disappeared. Like a hartman's 2nd flight book.
                1. +1
                  24 August 2017 09: 28
                  Yes Yes! That was all !!! And now, after all the “disappearances,” they also began to believe in the word! And the hartman and the poodle .... As in the English club: "We have the gentlemen BELIEVE A WORD ...".
              3. +2
                23 August 2017 22: 44
                There are not many German films preserved. English and American - full.
                This is understandable. The Germans retreated and no one carried the old films with them.
                Their main goal, by the way, was not to record who shot down how much, but to appear on the evening air regiments for disassembling the firing (did not hit, hit, hit but did not shoot down) and as a training manual on tactics.
                1. +1
                  23 August 2017 23: 24
                  Quote: voyaka uh
                  This is understandable. The Germans retreated and no one carried the old films with them.
                  Their main goal was, by the way, not to record who shot down how much, but to appear on evening flying regiments for disassembling firing (did not hit, hit, hit but did not shoot down) and as a training manual on tactics

                  There is no evidence, solid excuses. Who are you justifying? Fascist?
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                    1. +4
                      24 August 2017 11: 15
                      If my grandmother would have had a reason, she would be a grandfather! And opuses such as “pilot of the Stuki”, “blond knight of the Reich”, “I beat the Stalinist falcons” - are written under the dictation of the Anglo-Saxons and Amers, with the money of the CIA and the State Department, who took “patronage” of the former “Nazis” and turned them into ideological weapons by outright lies in some places. Experts and those who at least have some ideas on this topic laughed and criticized these “memoirs” from the very beginning. But young people with their fragile brains and principles, all of this "swallowed", the result: now we are reaping the benefits ...
                    2. +3
                      24 August 2017 11: 31
                      Quote: voyaka uh
                      What kind of childish approach? Enemies - always lie, their own - always tell the truth.

                      You see what the matter is, I personally trust more reports on the tests of these same pieces, when for one hundred sorties they achieved one hit in the captured KV-1, somewhere in the area of ​​the seam of the tower, and two shells in the rear of the t-34. The test is recognized as successful and fairy tales go on, as Rudel destroys the T-34 with the first shell, with the tower detached from the latter. Yeah, schach. Maybe you are a naive Chukchi guy who believes hunting stories, but not all the same gullible ones.
                      Quote: voyaka uh
                      And I would have to give him 250 Heroes of the Soviet Union.
                      (for 10 sorties they were given on ILs, and he had 2500 sorties).

                      Excuse me, is it really Yefimov who made the 222 sortie on Il-2 20 multiple hero of the Soviet Union? Your stupidity is sometimes very surprising. And what is noteworthy, a Jew stands up for an ardent Nazi. Wonderful things are your Lord .....
                      1. 0
                        24 August 2017 13: 42
                        I joked about 250, of course. And about 10 - google it,
                        there was such a period at the end of 41. To inspire the pilots.
            3. +2
              23 August 2017 16: 13
              So 2 armored trains are ATTRIBUTED to him - however, in MEMOIRS he writes only about the bombing of the tunnel in which the armored train was hiding!
              Or did his memory fail?
              BUT he didn’t forget about this episode -
              “I am again lucky in the first days of May. I am going to meet with Field Marshal Scherner, but I want to drop by the road to the Luftwaffe headquarters in Hermanstadtel Castle, about seventy-five kilometers from us. I am flying there on the Storch and I see that the castle is surrounded by tall trees. In the center there is a park, on the territory of which I can, it seems to me, land. With me on the plane is the faithful Fridolin. Landing takes place safely, after a short stop in order to take some cards, we again take off towards tall trees, gaining height. "Storch" slowly picks up speed, in order to facilitate take-off, I release the flaps right in front of the forest edge. But the plane cannot rise above the highest trees. I pull the handle toward me, but we don’t have enough speed. It is useless to pull on, the nose of the plane seems to be filled with heaviness. I hear some terrible crack. Now I have completely broken the stump, if not worse. Then everything suddenly subsides. Am I lying on the ground? No, I'm sitting in the cockpit, and Fridolin is next to me. We are stuck in a fork in the branches at the very top of a huge tree and swinging back and forth cheerfully. ”
              The Luftwaffe headquarters was forced to call the local fire brigade, which carefully, like a ripe pear, removed the best German ace from the tree.
              And yet, as you see, courage in war is a very practical thing, but Rudel’s luck has, I repeat, some sort of mysticism. Over 30 times him shot down and never a bullet hit the right place - in Rudel’s head!
          3. The comment was deleted.
            1. 0
              April 9 2020 09: 44
              "... The report of General Khokhlov on the defeat of Soviet tanks by captured anti-tank battalions, it is indicated there for the BB 37mm anti-tank vehicle beater is 700m for the side and tower, while the power of the flask is much greater ..."

              FACT TO STUDIO!
              THE REPORT ITSELF, "General Ukrainian" LET'S SHOW!
              AND THIS IF YOU SHOW YOU THIS DOCUMENT YOURSELF, THEN THEN YOU CAN SAY ABOUT SOMETHING NEXT.
              FOR A LONG LASKED ON OLD ARTICLES "IN" TO FIND AND COOL A BULLET, AND WHAT THE FOOD OF THE STATE DEPARTMENT?

              "... 37-mm anti-tank gun PaK.36, sub-caliber:
              75-mm sheet along the normal showed the durability limit of 180 m, the limit of penetration through the 120 m.
              The 45-mm sheet along the normal showed the rear strength limit of 440 meters, the through-penetration limit of 350 meters, at an angle of 30 degrees from the normal 200 and 150 meters, respectively ... "

              THIS IS YOUR Naked Nonsense!
              PROVE DOCUMENTS!
              THESE, WITH PRINTS AND SIGNATURES OF GENERALS OF THE MAIN ARTILLERY MANAGEMENT OF THE RKKA, AND NOT CONCEPTED IN THE BALTIC CENTER OF ANTI-RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA!
              UNDERSTAND NO?
              PRESENT THESE PRESENT!
              mudel-pudel-complete Nazi brehlo!
        3. +3
          23 August 2017 15: 26
          At Piece G, shown in the figure, the dive angle was limited to 10 degrees. The cold-blooded son of a bitch at the same time did not experience six-fold overloads. When D stepped on Marat at Stuck, then yes, the automatic output machine probably worked, and it was getting dark in Rudel’s eyes.
        4. +2
          23 August 2017 16: 07
          37mm guns - not at all 45mm
          On Hs129 they put 50mm.
        5. Alf
          +2
          23 August 2017 21: 34
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          To incapacitate a T-34 brigade by shooting it with an MTO from 45mm Ju-87G cannons - only a very cold-blooded son of a bitch is capable of this!

          1. According to his tales.
          2. There were no 87 mm guns on the Ju-45G, and 37 mm were on it.
          Teach materiel.
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          Rudel does not look like a psycho -

          He looks like a storyteller.
          1. +1
            23 August 2017 22: 11
            It’s now easy to declare anyone who someone doesn’t like to be a storyteller.
            Both Hartman and Rudel. (And who doesn’t like ace Kozhedub - and him too)
            And no evidence is required. All myths and lies. Because "I want it so"
    2. +1
      24 August 2017 23: 14
      That is, our aviation was completely absent from this sector of the front. This is sad. And the fact that almost any WWII bomber and now all the infantry without air defense and air cover can be destroyed so is it really a revelation ??
  15. +3
    23 August 2017 10: 45
    It seems that the author was inspired by the methodology of the famous historian Professor Medinsky. It turned out freshly.
  16. +1
    23 August 2017 11: 51
    I agree, this time some nonsense without the slightest hint of specificity, documentation and facts.
  17. +2
    23 August 2017 11: 53
    The concept of a fighter demanded the opposite. Fighters must maneuver and be able to fight each other. The less kilograms falls on each square. meter wing, the easier the wing "deploy" the aircraft. Smaller turn radius. Higher maneuverability.
    “How are the wings and turns connected?” - the youngest of the readers will ask.
    Airplanes change the direction of flight by creating a roll in one direction or another (the work of the ailerons). As a result, the lift decreases on the “lower” wing and increases on the raised wing. This creates a moment of power, which unfolds the aircraft.

    To undertake to write about aviation, one must at least a little understand it. After reading this nonsense article minus. Teach materiel, Oleg, before teaching youth.




    And where does the 30% infantry figure come from due to a broken chassis? From the ceiling for a red word? Efficiency is determined not only by the mass of the combat load.
    Ar-2: (http://pro-samolet.ru/samolety-sssr-ww2/bomberdi
    r / 79-bombardir-ar2? start = 1)
    At the beginning of 1941, Ar-2 aircraft entered service with the 27 IAP of the Moscow Military District. Previously, the regiment operated fighter I-14, I-15 and I-16 in five squadrons. Pilots of some squadrons took part in the Soviet-Finnish war 1939-40. By the time of rearmament, the regiment was based at the Central Airfield of Moscow, consisted of three squadrons, its commander was Lt. Col. P.K. Demidov. In February 1941, the 2 Squadron (commander I.I. Voronin), as part of the 11 crews, began retraining for the Ar-2 dive bomber, while the main goal was to practice diving flights.
    23 June 1941 Propulsion 2-I squadron 27 IAP in full force flew to the Western Front in order to counter the advance of enemy mechanized columns. It was based at the Borisov airfield in Belarus, the first blow to German troops was inflicted in the vicinity of the village of Vileyka. In total, the squadron performed 89 sorties, of which 41 - to dive. Prior to the withdrawal of 15 reorganization, people of the squadron's flight crew died and went missing
    Thus, at least 5 aircraft were lost. Total - 18 sorties to lose.
    Pe-2: (http://www.airwiki.org/history/av2ww/soviet/su2/
    su2.html)
    Interesting statistics are given at the end of 1941 in the final summary of the 66 Air Division. Although the command of the compound had many complaints about the leadership of the 288 go-cart for the poor organization of combat work, the poor preparation of pilots and navigators (in one of the first sorties, due to an error in piloting, Lieutenant Gil’s crew crashed and crashed), the regiment suffered relatively less losses than the parts of the division on the Pe-2 and SB. Major Artamonov, the commander of the 288 bap, noted that some Su-2 were returning to their airfield with up to a hundred holes.
    A type Number of sorties Combat losses Departures for one loss
    Pe-2 1288 40 32
    Sat 180 22 8
    Su-2 785 11 71
    No comment.
    1. +2
      23 August 2017 13: 03
      And in vain without comment. In such comparisons, you need to look not only missed, but also scored goals. And here even the periods of hostilities are different - in one case the summer of the 41st, in another - the end of the year
      1. +1
        23 August 2017 13: 29
        Comments for you. wink About the puck right.
        The period is similar - the time of the reign of the Luftwaffe. Ar-2. A squadron of 11 aircraft completed 89 sorties. in terms of a regiment of four squadrons in the state of the 41st 356 sorties and all. Retracted to the rear. The battle cycle is over. With an average loss of 1 aircraft for 18 sorties. He attributed to the enemy about 8090 kg of bombs per plane at (well, let it be, although unlikely!) 1000kg load. SB (the same Ar-2 from the point of view of survivability) was able to make 180 sorties in total, half a regiment was lost, during the reporting period each plane had about 2250 kg of delivered bombs with a standard load of 600 kg. Pe-2 for the same period. 1288 sorties (seven times more than the SB), when loading 400 kg for each plane of the regiment, 10730 kg of delivered bombs fall. 4,7 times more than that of the SB and with 4 times less combat loss per flight. We draw conclusions about the effectiveness.
        1. +2
          23 August 2017 13: 56
          Nope, not similar. Summer 41 years-i.e. Soviet pilots simply did not know how to fight, had not yet learned. Yes, and the German fighter geshwaders did not have time to suffer losses.
          By the way, in 41 (and in 42-43), Soviet pilots practically didn’t use dive on pawns.
          Yes, and as it is written correctly, it is necessary to take into account not only combat losses. On the Ar-2 pilots at least did not coffin on the landings.
          1. +1
            23 August 2017 14: 15
            And how did you learn one by winter? wink
            Do you have comparative data on flight accidents during landing for Ar-2 and Pe-2 for one landing made in combat conditions? Where is the confidence that for Ar-2 this indicator is better? Oleg Kaptsov said?
            1. +1
              23 August 2017 14: 42
              How do you respond, in your style or substance?
              Of course, by the winter, someone had learned, but someone hadn’t.
              And as for the flight accidents, do you think Oleg Kaptsov himself invented them? He, of course, sometimes has a flight of fancy, but he obviously subtracted it either from Perov-Rastrenin or from Shavrov, or from another source. Do you want me to do some research?
              1. +1
                23 August 2017 14: 56
                Of course, by the winter, someone had learned, but someone hadn’t

                "there were many claims to the leadership of the 288th BAP for the poor organization of combat work, poor training of pilots and navigators "- the pilots of this division did not quite learn, judging by the quote. The statistics given in the table for the pilots of this division, for one period.


                And as for the flight accidents, do you think Oleg Kaptsov himself invented them? He, of course, sometimes has a flight of fancy, but he obviously subtracted it either from Perov-Rastrenin or from Shavrov, or from another source. Do you want me to do some research?

                In my style essentially. Obviously, Oleg subtracted from some source? So obvious that he didn’t invent this stupid thing?
                I quote Oleg: "In the regiments flying on the Pe-2, 30% of the planes were constantly unfit due to broken landing gear."Precisely because of the broken down racks? Exactly 30%? In all the regiments flying on the Pe-2?"
                But the table given by me shows that for the same period, the regiment on the Pe-2 made 1288 sorties, and the regiment on the SB of the same division only 180. Why? Due to the fact that 30% of pawns were funny because of broken racks?
          2. +2
            23 August 2017 16: 23
            Andrei Sukhorukov asked T.P. Punev a few questions.
            “A.S. You said that many Pe-2 pilots were afraid. Why's that?
            T.P. When you have only 5 - 15 hours of flying time on a bomber, it is very difficult to tame such a fast and powerful beast as the Pe-2. Hence the fear.
            A.S. Timofey Panteleevich, how complicated was the Pe-2 to manage?
            TPMashina is unusually light. The Pe-2 found the optimal, I would say, excellent relationship between ease of control and stability. And it went steadily, and reacted to the rudders instantly. Incredibly balanced aircraft.
            Pe-2 was a new step in Soviet aviation. He was unusually electrified. Everything was done with electricity: cleaning and releasing the chassis, brake flaps, trim tabs, flaps; in general, everything that was previously done with cable drives. Therefore, the steering effort was minimal.
            On landing, however, with a decrease in speed he had to be kept very carefully.
            A.S. Timofei Panteleevich, how true, in your opinion, are the veterans' stories about the disgusting landing characteristics of the Pe-2 ("goat", etc.), which (characteristics), in their words, "... killed more crews than Fritz"?
            T.P. Fly must be able to! Do not know how to fly, do not blather!
            What do I want to tell you ... After the war, I was in Kazan at the grave of Petlyakov. And there were different inscriptions on the monument, and not the most pleasant ones as well. Swearing, speaking directly. I declare: Petlyakov did not deserve this abuse! Pe-2 - a great car!
            When landing, many pilots fell down on the “fourth U-turn”, when the speed was minimal and if the foot was slightly passed on the pedals, then - fuy! - already in the ground. It was, but ... when the anti-aircraft gun hits on a combat course (and it shoots according to certain mathematical laws), I have to give something to this mathematical science as a counterweight. I have to maneuver. So, when the anti-aircraft gun hits, then you put your foot in the pawn, and it slides away from the anti-aircraft fire with a sharp slip, and here for some reason no one broke.
    2. +1
      23 August 2017 13: 24
      Quote: Dooplet11
      Type Number of sorties Combat losses Departures per loss
      Pe-2 1288 40 32
      Sat 180 22 8
      Su-2 785 11 71
      No comment.


      You can only compare conditionally on one sector of the front, at the same time, because the Luftwaffe and air defense fighter forces are distributed unevenly along the fronts.

      In addition, the Su-2s worked along the front line, which meant small arms or MZA, the Pe-2s worked near the rear - which implies interception by fighters, the ZA and MZA fires - completely different tasks and completely different opposition - the loss comparison is not correct, from the word - absolutely.

      ".... the attitude of the leadership towards the Sukhoi machine has changed significantly in a negative direction. It has become the opinion that the BB-1 as a type will not find wide application in a future war. The military was well aware of the defenselessness of the Polish light single-engine Karas bombers before the attacks of German fighters Later it became known that the British “Battles” (closest to BB-1 in terms of design and purpose), which were considered quite modern on the eve of the war, suffered extremely heavy losses in the May battles of 1940 in France. and that the largest factories "Austin" in Coventry switched to the production of four-engine bombers, stopping the construction of "Battle."
      http://www.airwar.ru/enc/bww2/su2.html
      1. +1
        23 August 2017 13: 44
        I agree. In our context, the Su-2 is generally behind the scenes, so you should compare the Pe-2 and SB. The front section is one, the goals and methods of processing them are identical. We can say that Ar-2 is better than SB. But in what and how much? In survivability? No, similar. In bomb loading? Well, we will recalculate per tonne of cargo and get 3750kg for each aircraft for the period. Less than Pawns?
    3. +1
      23 August 2017 13: 39
      Quote: Dooplet11
      Type Number of sorties Combat losses Departures per loss
      Pe-2 1288 40 32
      Sat 180 22 8
      Su-2 785 11 71


      from Brovar, where the 29st bap was based on July 211, a telegram was received from an engineer of the Byaz regiment with a request to urgently send 42 sets of armor for installation on the Su-2 in the field. The military engineer believed that it was better to put armored plates in the form of an apron on the movable ring of the turret. According to the regiment's headquarters, combat losses by this time amounted to 2 pilots and 23 navigators. (According to other sources, during the two months of the war, 211 pilots and 4 navigators died in the 14st BAP, not counting the pilots who did not return from the combat mission.)

      By the beginning of August 1941, the Podolsk factory manufactured 100 sets of armor according to the scheme of the chief designer, and the factory in Mariupol - 10 sets according to the variant of Kharkov citizens; factory brigades urgently went to the front to strengthen the protection of already issued aircraft. On August 9, the situation with the reservation of the Su-2 crew was considered by the government. GKO Decision No. 441 demanded from August 15 to produce all aircraft with navigator armor in the form of 8,5 mm sheets of cemented steel. To maintain alignment and payload, a radio station and a radio half-pass were removed from the car. The same decree GKO ordered the People’s Commissariat of the shipbuilding industry to immediately provide serial production of Su-2 aircraft with armored plates from the Mariupol plant named after Ilyich.
    4. +1
      23 August 2017 13: 58
      For the whole of 1942, German fighters and anti-aircraft guns shot down 64 Su-2s, of which eight amounted to the irretrievable losses of the 8th Air Army during the defensive period of the Battle of Stalingrad. On average, each Su-270 managed to complete 2 sorties in the 80th bad before being canceled in July - August, and the Pe-2 only 20 (the 221st bad operating here on the Bostons lost in June - July 1942 d. one plane for every 19 sorties).
      Of course, it would be an exaggeration to say that Sukhoi’s planes are several times better than pawns or Bostons. We must not forget that among the flight crews of the 52nd and other regiments on the Su-2, many aviators who had excellent training and experience in flying from before the war remained.
      The documents noted that well-trained crews found small, well-camouflaged targets, such as, for example, pontoon crossings drowned several tens of centimeters under water, delivered well-aimed strikes and avoided pursuing enemy fighters on a shaver. In other cases, on the contrary, single bombers climbed to a height of up to 8000 m. An entry in the military logbook of the 270th bad reads that "at these altitudes the German fighters did not catch up with Su-2 aircraft and attacked only on oncoming and intersecting courses." This fact can be explained by the crews' rich experience, their ability to disguise themselves as clouds, and the insignificant activity of the Luftwaffe fighter aircraft at high altitudes in the summer of 1942 - because the maximum speed of Bf109F and Bfl09G was still at least 100 km / h more than Su-2 M-82.
      http://www.airwar.ru/enc/bww2/su2.html
      1. +1
        23 August 2017 14: 08
        Dear DimerVladimer! The information from you on the Su-2 is certainly interesting! But this plane got to my post insofar as it simply appeared in the table of the original source. I gave the table to illustrate the comparative effectiveness of Ap (SB) and Pe. This pair was compared by Oleg Kaptsov.
  18. +3
    23 August 2017 15: 04
    Poor owls ...
    "Mixed into a bunch of bombs, buzzing ..." (c)
  19. +3
    23 August 2017 15: 14
    Here, I found a suitable source
    http://coollib.com/b/127899/read
    Aviation and astronautics 2003 07 (fb2)
    PEROV V.I., RASTRENIN O.V.
    UNKNOWN AR-2
    To be continued. Beginning in A&C No. 2,3,4 / 2003
    The main thing. The Ar-2 had excellent takeoff and landing qualities and was more accessible than the Pe-2 for the development of wartime by young sergeants. As you know, the Pe-2 completely did not tolerate high alignment - in this case, the chassis was guaranteed to break. Broken down on the landing "pawns" accounted for up to 30% of faulty vehicles in units.
    So Kaptsov is not to blame
    1. +7
      23 August 2017 15: 50
      Now compare:
      "In the regiments flying on the Pe-2, 30% of the planes were constantly unfit due to broken landing gear racks." - Kaptsov.
      "Broken down on landing" pawns "accounted for up to 30% of faulty vehicles in units." -AiK
      I decipher: According to Kaptsov in all regiments flying on Pe-2 30% of all aircraft constantly were funny because of the broken landing gear. By A&K in regiments armed with pawns, out of fault aircraft (how much is a percentage of serviceable?) up to a third had broken racks. A third of all constantly and sometimes up to a third of faulty ones - is there a difference in quantity? Very freely Kaptsov interprets the A&C data. But he is not to blame. Such an interpreter! feel
      And the fact that a pawn is stricter on landing than Ar does not make it a less efficient plane.
      In addition, if we compare the number of malfunctioning aircraft with respect to serviceable aircraft, then this should be correlated with the number of departures per malfunction.
      1. +2
        23 August 2017 16: 28
        In fact, it does. For example, because because of the difficulty of piloting, young pilots were limited by the value of BN. But in general, I don’t know, there probably isn’t an unequivocal answer that it was necessary to let out. Even now, looking from the sofa, the answer is not obvious.
        1. +1
          23 August 2017 17: 04
          Actually, does
          In relation to the Ar-2? The strictness of piloting ON LANDING when the BN is already reset? Here above the hohol95 interview Puneva cited. Read, entertaining.
        2. +2
          24 August 2017 12: 24
          Actually, it does. For example, because of the difficulty of piloting young pilots ...

          If in the same perspective, as Kaptsov considers, to consider a pair of He-51 / Bf-109, then Mess will be an ineffective machine compared to Heinkel, it will be difficult to take off and land, and with a broken chassis, one third will be chained to the airfield. laughing
    2. +1
      23 August 2017 16: 13
      Thank you very much, by the way, for the source. It well illustrates the depth of analysis by Oleg Kaptsov of the source material.
    3. +1
      23 August 2017 16: 28

      There is also a BOOK about SB and Ar-2.
  20. +1
    23 August 2017 15: 21
    About f35: It’s impossible to create a universal strike aircraft if the enemy has developed air defense. This rule was verified experimentally by war, trial and error. Three directions of military aircraft: fighter aircraft, bombers and attack aircraft. A separate song is transport carriers. Waiting for this bastard is oblivion.
  21. +1
    23 August 2017 15: 42
    Well, he fully performed his function. That is also affected by a well-chosen caliber of bombs.
  22. +2
    23 August 2017 16: 24
    https://ok.ru/nashiioni/topic/62415494078536
    Pe-2 - VIEW FROM THE CABIN. Retired Colonel, 1st Class Military Pilot A. M. Artemyev
    This is not for discussion. Just interesting (in my opinion) information about the practice of dive bombing
  23. 0
    23 August 2017 17: 36
    Quote: A1845
    Quote: demiurg
    topic ... TB-3 in the role of WWII bombers little disclosed

    famous scene from the movie "Living and the Dead."

    Movie as an argument?
  24. +1
    23 August 2017 18: 00
    What the article is not clear about, a lot of parallels and draws. The author did not mention that the U88 was the workhorse of the Luftwaffe. Not only one aircraft of the Second World War had such multifunctionality. 15000 aircraft, the most massive twin-engine aircraft of the time of the war.
  25. +3
    23 August 2017 18: 10
    It would be better if the author booked some kind of Zamvolt or conducted an analysis of the combat stability of the Bismarck battleship under the fire of the railgun.
    On the night of July 23-24, 1941, the Ju-88A-6 4D + DH from I./KG-30 got lost during a raid on Birkenhead. The crew mistakenly mistook the Bristol Channel for the English Channel and, experiencing a lack of fuel, landed at the nearest airfield, which turned out to be the RAF Lalsgate-Bott airfield, next to Whiston-super-Marie. The pilot landed well on the released chassis, providing RAF representatives with a working Ju-88 bomber.
    In the British Air Force, the aircraft received registration "EE205". The bomber passed assessment tests in Duxford, after which the aircraft entered the 1426th link (of enemy aircraft) at the Colliveston base. Here he was until January 1945, the show disbanded the 1426th link. Then the car was handed over to the Central Aviation Organization in Tengmir, then - the 47th repair unit in Siland to prepare for museum storage. The further fate of the aircraft has not been clarified.
    A detailed report on comprehensive testing of the aircraft for those interested - http://www.airpages.ru/lw/ju88_2.shtml.
    I will allow myself to cite only a small fragment.
    From the article. "Finally, the “bomb bomber” could not be a normal dive bomber. This is out of the question. For high-speed aircraft, a streamlined appearance is characteristic. For a dive pilot, poor aerodynamics and maximum air resistance are required. Otherwise, it will accelerate too quickly in a dive, so quickly that the pilot does not have time to aim. It is no coincidence that Ju.87 (“bast”, “thing”) had such a monstrous appearance with bulky fairings of the chassis. Do you think the Germans could not create a mechanism for cleaning the chassis? They did it on purpose. "
    First, in order not to weaken its construction, Polman decided to abandon the cutouts for cleaning the chassis and made it fixed. And to improve the aerodynamics of the car chassis were enclosed in fairings.
    And secondly, here's what the dive tests showed.
    "The aircraft quickly accelerates during a dive. The brake flaps are easy to release and very effective. When diving at an angle of 60 degrees, the instrument speed never exceeded 426 km. H, the airplane control was kept at all times, which allowed adjusting the aiming. The output from the dive is carried out automatically."
    But one of these articles draws on knowledge.
    1. +2
      23 August 2017 18: 49
      There are myth destroyers. And there are their creators. Oleg, it seems, from the last. laughing
  26. -1
    23 August 2017 22: 06
    Quote: Dooplet11
    There are myth destroyers. And there are their creators. Oleg, it seems, from the last. laughing

    A lot of honor, balabolu.
  27. +1
    24 August 2017 06: 08
    Funny article. And a funny comparison of the Yu-88 with competitors.
    1. The bomb load of the Yu-88 - three tons. THREE. And Pe-2 - 600 kg is normal. The twin-engine Americans have 800 kg.
    2. The speed of the Yu-88 - 480 km.h. The Pe-2 had 480 km / h. There were no 540 km shown in the tests. Myasishchev had to carry out a major modernization in order to increase the speed to 1943 km by 534. By 1943!
    3. The Germans had high-speed bombers. The same Yu-88S flew faster than Mosquito. And the Yu-188 was no worse than the Tu-2.
    4. The discussion of who is better: Pe-2 or Ar-2 has been going on for a long time. Many experts believe that Ar-2. And the Pe-2 is generally an unsuccessful car. It would be better to bring the SBB.
    1. +3
      24 August 2017 07: 17
      4. - Unfortunately, for discussion it is already not possible to find all those documents and the grounds on which the T-bills made decisions on adoption or removal from service. But it should be noted that unsuccessful, or not fit into the concept of the application were withdrawn from service in favor of the successful. And there are examples when the shots were again put on the conveyor (Tu-2, Il-4, Ep-2, ZIS-2). I think if Ar-2 would be so good, and Pe-2 so unsuccessful, then restarting at 22 plant would not be a problem. There is equipment, frames too. It can be seen that many experts do not take into account what GKO took into account in the pair Ar-2 / Pe-2.
    2. Alf
      +3
      24 August 2017 21: 28
      Quote: ignoto
      3. The Germans had high-speed bombers. The same Yu-88S flew faster than Mosquito. And the Yu-188 was no worse than the Tu-2.

      In October 1943, the Luftwaffe ordered 70 Ju 88S-3 bombers, and then another 146 aircraft of this type. However, by March 1944, only the first contract was completed, and the second had to be abandoned due to a lack of production capacities reoriented to the mass production of fighter jets. However, in the second quarter, Lufthansa repair plants converted a batch of 88 damaged Ju 3A-30 bombers into the Ju 88S-4. In July 1944, the KG30 had 26 Ju 88S-3, and in December 1944, 57 Ju planes 88S-3 were in service with I and II / LG1.

      100 Yu-88S is, of course, to hell, especially when compared with 6000 Mossi ... The British did not notice him.
      Quote: ignoto
      1. The bomb load of the Yu-88 - three tons. THREE.

      In overload, it is really 1500-1800 kg. In addition, 3 tons is when the target is within sight.
      Quote: ignoto
      And Pe-2 - 600 kg is normal.

      PE-2 lifted 1200 kg without much strain.
      Quote: ignoto
      The twin-engine Americans have 800 kg.

      908, not 800. These are indicators of Mitchell, who from Britain went to France. When the shoulder contracted, both B-25 and B-26 dragged 1362 kg each.
      Quote: ignoto
      It would be better to bring the SBB.

      SBB was only good with the M-107, but it wasn’t there. PE-2 with 107 also showed excellent data.
      Quote: ignoto
      Many experts believe that the Ar-2

      Which experts are sofa or fought?
      1. The comment was deleted.
  28. +1
    25 August 2017 02: 38
    throw small caliber bombs

    when you look at the picture of our attacks in Syria, the effect is certainly impressive, but ... very often they do not show continuation. And in the sequel - after the explosion, scattering living terrorists. Almost from the center of the blast.
    Such picture bombing may be suitable for advertising. But the Germans, with their small bombs, mowed everything: people and equipment.
    Therefore, our bombing in Syria for the second year ... the end and the edge is not visible.
  29. +2
    12 November 2017 18: 00
    The only thing that is common between Ju-88 and F-35 is that they are airplanes controlled by Chegovek and that both of these airplanes had the ability to strike strikes at ground and surface targets. the differences between these planes are no less, if not more than common.

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