Military Review

Patriotic dances on the graves of the Red Army soldiers - is this normal for Russia?

55



At first, we will ask an absolutely inadequate question.

How would normal Russians have reacted, I would even say, the patriots, if they saw an advertisement in their place of residence that a rock concert would take place on June 10 at the territory of the central memorial of the Great Patriotic War? Or are there rapper Pugegeymer performances?

I think that at least there would be plenty of noise. Still, there are concert venues, but there are mass graves and monuments. And one with the other should not be mixed well.

Knowledgeable people would say that such a disgrace would be more appropriate in Ukraine. There is not possible.

But the fact is that the concert was. And he seemed to be not in Ukraine, in Sevastopol. Crimea, they say, is Russia. Now, as if there are some doubts.

But let's go in order.

A museum or not a museum in Sevastopol.

Not so long ago, we talked about some of the problems of Sevastopol in terms of preserving stories. The material was quite voluminous and did not arouse much interest.

Historical Sevastopol: oddities, explanations and answers to readers' questions.

However, it turned out that we, to put it mildly, mislead the readers. And I, on behalf of myself and our correspondent, who worked in the Crimea, apologize.

There is no museum on the 35 battery of Sevastopol. Alas, documented fact.

Let's start with the fact that such a museum in general.

The museum (from the Greek. Μουσεον - house of the Muses) is an institution engaged in the collection, study, storage and display of objects: monuments of natural history, material and spiritual culture, as well as educational and promotional activities.

At first, this concept meant a collection of objects (exhibits) on art and science, then, from the 18th century, it also includes the building where the exhibits are located. Since the XIX century joined the research work carried out in museums. And since the sixties of the 20th century, the pedagogical activity of museums began (special projects for children, adolescents and adults).

What do we have on the 35 battery? And nothing.

In the register of museums of Russia such an organization is not listed. True, there is no such museum in the Ukrainian national register of museums either.

There is a local document, still Ukrainian, which, after careful reading, shows that this is not really a museum. Here he is:

Patriotic dances on the graves of the Red Army soldiers - is this normal for Russia?


A dash in the line, where the number of registered museum exhibits should be, is quite indicative. The fact is that creating a museum is not so easy. Each exhibit must be examined for historical value.

So, there are simply no historical values ​​in the so-called “museum” of the 35 battery. But there is a necropolis where burials of found remains of Soviet fighters systematically occur.

Between the mass grave and the necropolis.

As soon as it turned out that the graves were being passed with gross violations of the law, the head of one of the public organizations of Sevastopol, Elena Golubeva, sent statements to the prosecutor's office, the police and the Ministry of Defense.

To Golubeva’s inquiry about the existence of a military cemetery of the Ministry of Defense on the territory of the museum “35-I coastal battery”: “According to the centralized registration of military graves ... the necropolis of the Complex does not appear. In this regard, it is necessary to instruct the relevant local authorities to carry out the certification of military burial and send the first copy of the registration card to the Office.



Really, neither the government of Sevastopol, nor the Ministry of Defense, nor the search movement, in general, all those who participated in the annual burials since 2009, at the necropolis of the private museum "35-I coastal battery", did not know that the burials are held in the cemetery, which not listed anywhere?

It seems that the permission from the Ukrainian authorities was. And a passport memorial. But it turns out, if you look at the dates, that at first there was a necropolis, and then a memorial. But in the draft memorial about the necropolis, not a word, although according to the director of the memorial, the necropolis was included in the memorial project.

One wonders asking the question: why do we need a necropolis in the complex? Perhaps in order to bury the remains of fighters raised during the construction of the complex. But! First, on the territory of the complex there is a mass grave of soldiers of the 35 th battery of the 1941-1942 period, which at one time was included in the register of military graves.

There is a memorial cemetery of Soviet soldiers, 6 km of the Simferopol highway, pos. Dergachi. There were buried members of the defense and liberation of the city of Sevastopol (1941-44), 17 Heroes of the Soviet Union, young partisans, commanders of brigades and divisions, veterans of the Great Patriotic War.



As a result, for which the creators of the complex on the 35-th battery needed to create a new burial, it remains a mystery.

However, the organizers of this all went even further, and staged a third burial. Absolutely illegal from the point of view of jurisprudence and absolutely amoral from the universal point of view.

During the construction of the chapel on the territory of the memorial, the remains of the 6-ti fighters of the Red Army were hit by the excavator bucket. They were exhumed and solemnly, with honors, buried ... in the same place where they were found. And from above a chapel was erected, as was supposed by the project.



The testimony of the former employee of the memorial Ekaterina Eroshevich:

“They found the remains of six fighters when they dug a pit under a chapel. Three were identified, the rest of the mortal medallions were not all letters. The management of the museum did not come up with anything better than to bury them in the same place where they were found. Buried solemnly.

And then they remembered the chapel and did a terrible thing - they dug up the ground over the newly buried coffins and poured it into the resulting foundation pit. That is, now the soldiers are buried under the chapel, and next to it there is no sign of the burial. The only reminder of the people buried under the foundation was a small tablet hidden inside the chapel. And the worst thing is that, as usual, no one has filed information about the reburied soldiers. ”



It is also surprising that those who re-buried the remains did not bother to make an examination of the mortal medallions, on which not all letters remained. The practice of restoring full names in search activity has been around for a long time.

We will focus on what to look for, pick up and re-bury the remains of the fighters in those years the organization “Pivdennyi memorials of Ukraine” received the right. With the preparation of relevant documents. In fact, all those who were interested in it were doing this.

An interesting approach, is not it? We do not want to bury the fighters in a mass grave - we washed down our cemetery. Actually private. We don’t want to bury it in our own - we bury it where we found it, fill it with concrete and build a chapel from above. In short, what we want, then we bring back, and no one decree to us.

And this is not just the Crimea, which seems to be ours. The scene of action is the hero-city of Sevastopol ...

Memorable date - the day of the city

The 35 battery is the only place in Sevastopol where not the day of the liberation of the city from the Nazi invaders (9 of May 1944 of the year), but the day of delivery - July 3 of 1942 is widely celebrated. Strange? Quite.

So this year's memorial day was marked by the burial at the necropolis of the museum of the remains of 93 Soviet soldiers and a concert. The first persons of the city came to the burial place - the governor’s acting governor, Dmitry Ovsyannikov, chairman of the legislative assembly Ekaterina Altabaeva, Senator from Sevastopol Olga Timofeeva, deputy commander of the Black Sea fleet Yuri Orekhovsky.

A thoughtful reader will ask: Acting as city governor, Mr. Ovsyannikov came to participate in illegal burial?

The answer will be given by the director of the museum "35-I Coastal Battery": "July 3. In the morning the government made a decision. They said there: “If it is necessary, let's do it, since we are all going here (for burial) now, let's go to the government and accept. We have all the documents, why drag it out ?! ”Valery Ivanovich means that on July 3, on the day of burial, the government of Sevastopol entered the necropolis of the 35 battery into the cemeteries registry.



And then a thoughtful reader may have more questions. Maybe it seemed to you that the director of the museum said that the governor and the first persons, gathering for burial, adopted a resolution “on the government” to legalize the cemetery? You thought it was a coincidence.

Here, the efficiency and simplicity of creating a cemetery is admired - by the government’s decision, since the preliminary elaboration of this issue has never been mentioned either in the press or on the 35 battery.

Federal Law No. 8-FZ "On Burial and Funeral Business" from 12.01.1996, and especially its Art. 16 says that the hard work of various inspections and departments should precede the decision of the executive authority of the constituent entity of the Russian Federation.

This is “Our Crimea” for you, and not what else!

Well done officials, in order not to become participants in the illegal burial, just took and realized everything they needed.

We will definitely return to the burial procedure in a separate material, this outrage is worth it. We promise.

Concert on the bones, solemnly buried

The second act of the ceremony celebrating the memorable day of July 3 continued with a big concert. As the museum director Valery Volodin said:

"Memorial evening was called" Remember to live. " The first part is minor, the second is major. First part: Symphony Orchestra of Sevastopol, choir of the ensemble “Tavria” from Simferopol, Vyacheslav Korneev accompanied by marines, Elena Shlomin, Vladimir.

Second branch: Olga Kormukhina. She was selected because she is known for patriotic Russian songs. We selected her repertoire from the one sent to us along with our production center. Everything was agreed. "

On the parade ground in front of the casemates battery settled spectators and the scene. He played a symphony orchestra, read poems, marines to a wartime song held a demonstration performance. And a memorable concert was crowned in honor of the day of the end of the defense of the city by the performance of O. Kormukhina and her husband, A. Belov (ex-member of the Gorky Park group), who made a clown on stage.

So that readers can understand the disposition, I’ll give you a scheme where the scene with Belov jumping, wheezing “We will rock you” (which means “we will shake you” in Tolstoy’s language).



We must pay tribute to the organizers of the concert - the microphones were not turned off, the singer finished foreign songs and reached the end.

This is how the director of the museum commented: “The sound is never turned off in such cases, because there is a memory concert. <…> It was impossible to turn off the sound, because it was a scandal. And at the end of the concert we were supposed to have cars of the wartime and in memory of the last volleys of the 35th battery the "forty-five" cannon should fire. Do we have to cover all this ?! And the organizer of the concert, Sergei Arbuzov, and I in military uniform - came out from the side and showed signs "stop" (arms crossed - ed.). They didn't react at all. And so until he finished himself, he did not leave the stage "

What is most surprising when Belov offered to sing instead of the audience, they happily picked up and chanted "We will rock you". Director Volodin noted that “this is because we probably achieved our goal and in the territory we had almost 50% of young people, they turned on the lanterns, jumped up, chanted - this is young people, she took it as her own. And we did not need it. We admit a mistake, make a conclusion for the future for ourselves, what to do - should I beat with a ruble? But to turn off the microphones - it does. This group cost us quite a lot. ”



A. Belov gave a comment to the local channel about geopolitics and patriotism: “Knowing your traditions and honoring history is what means not to forget your destiny on this earth ...”

He has a good purpose, there is nothing to add.

Interestingly, the journalist who posted a concert video on YouTube apologized for him, using the phrase “You’re tearing up Memenylo for Gentle May on the day of Kursk’s death, but you did the same thing”.



The concert, organized on the day of the funeral, in fact, at the cemetery, deserves one definition - blasphemy.

Perhaps there are peoples and nationalities who arrange songs and dances on the day of the funeral, but this is not in our rules or in our traditions.

It was necessary to call people in the evening for the 35 battery, it was necessary to give the last honors to our fighters, but to arrange Belov’s monkey dances in some 30-40 meters from the fresh graves — that is, excuse me, brute force. All articles.

When we see the memorials of the Great War, we do not often think that the mass grave is the grave in which real human bones lie. And the traditions, rituals associated with exhumation, burial were created for a reason, and are the result of a long way of perpetuating the feat of specific people.

No one has an idea to hold a concert in the cemetery, we are wildly outraged when we learn about the Sabbaths of young people at the graves. But for some reason, the holding of concerts a few meters from the burial of the Red Army soldiers, who covered Sevastopol with their breasts, pouring graves with a solution of concrete, giving the heroes oblivion do not arouse most similar emotions and outrage. It's a pity…

Somehow it is amiss in this our Crimea, the right word ...
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  1. Olgovich
    Olgovich 22 August 2017 07: 02
    +9
    And then they remembered the chapel and did a terrible thing - they dug up the earth above the just buried coffins and poured into the foundation pit that turned out. That is, now the soldiers are buried under the chapel, and next to it there is no sign of burial. The only reminder of
    People buried under the foundation became a small tablet hidden inside the chapel.


    The chapel above the grave was previously a common practice: on the Borodino field there is a temple on the site of the death and grave of General Tuchkov, in the cemeteries those who richer arranged chapels on the graves of their relatives.

    Concrete is poured always when installing monuments to relatives.

    I don’t see anything terrible.
    And how was it necessary? request
    1. Vend
      Vend 22 August 2017 08: 59
      +6
      Perhaps there are peoples and nationalities who arrange songs and dances on the day of the funeral, but this is not in our rules or in our traditions.
      Yes you? Maybe remember the Slavic feast on the dead? Pay attention to the gravestone. Although this is a picture of Vasnetsov, he is not an artist, a historian.
      1. Mestny
        Mestny 22 August 2017 10: 05
        +3
        During a feast, they do not dance or sing. Even if you believe the artist.
        Moreover, in many places in Russia there is a tradition to commemorate the deceased directly to the cemetery - that is, all relatives come, bring food and drink - and they sit, commemorate. True, they don’t sing songs
        1. Vend
          Vend 22 August 2017 10: 15
          +2
          Quote: Mestny
          During a feast, they do not dance or sing. Even if you believe the artist.
          Moreover, in many places in Russia there is a tradition to commemorate the deceased directly to the cemetery - that is, all relatives come, bring food and drink - and they sit, commemorate. True, they don’t sing songs

          There is a term in the memorial traditions such as moaning. - ritual crying. This is a kind of song. And the war games were both songs and dances, only these are all special funeral rites. Here you can read at your leisure http://slavyanskaya-kultura.ru/slavic/slavjanskie
          -obrjady / trizna.html
          There is a lot of material in a network.
        2. Setrac
          Setrac 23 August 2017 21: 05
          0
          Quote: Mestny
          Moreover, in many places in Russia there is a tradition to commemorate the deceased directly in the cemetery.

          In Russia, there is a tradition - to burn the dead. And cemeteries are a Christian tradition - the belief that during the final judgment the souls will return to their bodies.
          1. Shaitan_by
            Shaitan_by 24 August 2017 15: 52
            0
            In different tribes in different ways. The fans of Perun burned the dead, and even then not all, and the fans of Veles buried in the ground in a wicker basket (basket).
      2. Ostromirov
        Ostromirov 22 August 2017 15: 07
        +4
        Wend!

        And what relation Red Army fightersand, from the point of view of THEIR worldview WHILE life, in its overwhelming mass of atheism, have to "pagan trisen" after their death in battle ?!

        And among the fighters under the Orthodox chapel, there may be Muslims and Jews. And this is a very delicate topic. Therefore, just like the WARRIORS who died in battles for the State, the State, without emphasizing their religious confessionality, gives them honors, respect and memory by resting their remains on the MILITARY, and not on "religious memorials."

        Why then on the territory of the memorial there is no mosque, church, Lenin’s room or synagogue nearby, but an exclusively Orthodox chapel?
        1. Vend
          Vend 22 August 2017 15: 53
          +3
          Quote: Ostromir
          Wend!
          And what relation Red Army fightersand, from the point of view of THEIR worldview WHILE life, in its overwhelming mass of atheism, have to "pagan trisen" after their death in battle ?!

          And you watch the final of the movie "Only Old Men Go to Battle".
          And the point is in the concert. If he is in memory of the heroes of the war, then it will even be symbolic and instructive.
          And in Soviet times, concerts at the opening of the monuments of the Great Patriotic War were normal.
          You know, to hear “Cranes” or “From Heroes of Bygone Days”, I wouldn’t refuse even on Mamaev Kurgan. And it doesn’t matter if these songs were performed by I. Kabzon with L. Leshchenko or K. Kinchev with Pelageya.
          1. Ostromirov
            Ostromirov 23 August 2017 10: 23
            +1
            Wend!


            It goes not about cinema, but about life.

            And in life on the 35th battery of the museum - no.
            There is no military memorial cemetery there.
            The speeches of the guides and objectivity in assessing the events of the last days of the defense of Sevastopol are absent. And there is a private shop on land leased from the State.

            And all the activities of this private shop with historical the point of view is aimed at putting into the minds of visitors of this institution the idea that the entire 250-day defense of the city is not worth a penny compared to the last 10 days and the center of ALL defense for all 250 days was precisely the 35th battery.

            With ideologicalFrom this point of view, the command of the Red Army, the command of the Sevastopol defensive area and the Supreme Headquarters are totally defamed in this private shop.

            С inadequacy by this, like, a “museum”, the laurels of the “only” and “unique” experts on the defense of Sevastopol in 1941–42, about which only they know all the “truth” and “falsehood”, are exclusively assigned to themselves.

            None of the serious historians and local historians, both in Sevastopol and throughout Russia, are in contact with this “museum”.

            A characteristic illustration is one of the "influential persons"From this museum about the memoirs of the commander of the Chapaevsky division, defending Sevastopol, said:" And what is there to read ?! The old senile has long survived from the mind! ”
            Is it symbolic and instructive?
            1. Vend
              Vend 23 August 2017 10: 59
              +1
              Quote: Ostromir

              It goes not about cinema, but about life.

              So I wrote about life. A movie is a reflection of part of life. This is not about the museum and its leaders, but about the concert. Something went wrong. But regarding historical objectivity, it is simply not interesting to anyone. There are no passions in her. After all, it is much more pleasant to elevate Stalin with foam at the mouth or mix it with mud, yell that there was no repression or that half of the country was in camps and so on. Objectivity is boring.
              1. Ostromirov
                Ostromirov 23 August 2017 11: 26
                0
                Wend!

                Rather, it bore you somewhere - and what about Stalin, repressions? ..

                We are talking about a specific institution in which "the jamb on the jamb and jamb drives." And if you are not interested in objectivity, only in its reflection in the fantasies of filmmakers, then what are you discussing here?

                By the way, when the "museum workers" on the 35 battery arranged an exhibition at which the Nazis from the "Ziegler group" were promoted, then a certain (certain) Greig was attracted as a historical expert on the defense of Sevastopol, among whom “among others” historical "facts in published" works "- there is also the fact that Eva Brown had an illegitimate (!?) child from Stalin.

                This is not even foam from the mouth, it is feces from the brain ...
                1. Vend
                  Vend 23 August 2017 12: 45
                  +1
                  Quote: Ostromir
                  Wend!

                  Rather, it bore you somewhere - and what about Stalin, repressions? ..

                  We are talking about a specific institution in which "the jamb on the jamb and jamb drives." And if you are not interested in objectivity, only in its reflection in the fantasies of filmmakers, then what are you discussing here?

                  By the way, when the "museum workers" on the 35 battery arranged an exhibition at which the Nazis from the "Ziegler group" were promoted, then a certain (certain) Greig was attracted as a historical expert on the defense of Sevastopol, among whom “among others” historical "facts in published" works "- there is also the fact that Eva Brown had an illegitimate (!?) child from Stalin.

                  This is not even foam from the mouth, it is feces from the brain ...

                  I answered your comment. departing from the topic of the article. I will not do this from now on. Once you take aside, and then also blame your blame on others.
                  1. Ostromirov
                    Ostromirov 23 August 2017 15: 46
                    +1
                    Wend!

                    Apparently, you are not a Sevastopol and you yourself have not been to the 35th battery and you have not heard the guides speak.

                    And the essence of those speeches, in particular, is that Oktyabrsky, the commander of the Black Sea Fleet and the commander of the defense of the city, is a bastard who betrayed and abandoned everyone and everything.

                    However, in the realities of the USSR, Oktyabrsky - Hero of the Soviet Union, Honorary Citizen of the city of Sevastopol, a street in the city was named after him.

                    Does the museum have complaints about all this? No problem!.., - prove and convincethat Oktyabrsky is a devil with horns.
                    And demand - answering for your words - Removing all ranks from him and renaming the street. It will be consistent, honest and decent. And just “barking around the corner” on excursions to Oktyabrsky is vile and vile.

                    This Wend Museum is Visited Massively only in summer, visitorsand in Sevastopol and vacationersand in the Crimea.

                    NOBODY, in particular, from Sevastopol, goes - neither in autumn, nor winter, nor early spring, and indeed - in principle.

                    Because Sevastopol residents know the history of their city better than "museum professionals"From the" memorial "on the 35th battery ....
                    1. Vend
                      Vend 23 August 2017 16: 10
                      +1
                      Quote: Ostromir
                      .
                      You look at my first post and your comment. I didn’t even talk about the museum. You yourself have created a claim, now pull me into the swara.
                      1. Ostromirov
                        Ostromirov 23 August 2017 17: 39
                        0
                        Wend!

                        Swara ?!

                        If you have something to say on the merits of the article - say it.

                        You only They spoke in favor of “Hurray” in favor of “pagan trizny with elements of crying,” but in no way condemned the “dancing on the bones,” which took place on the 35th battery.

                        I repeat the question, the soldiers and commanders of the Red Army - in your understanding and understanding of the "museum workers" from the 35th battery - were some pagan organization, where during the funeral of their fallen soldiers it was NORMAL to dance with a tambourine on their graves?
    2. Ostromirov
      Ostromirov 22 August 2017 17: 09
      +2
      Olgovich!

      How to? But it’s necessary, for starters - like this

      As during the burial of soldiers under the chapel, so now - an obligatory basis for exhumation and reburial was the Act establishing the burial place. In addition, it was necessary to petition the State Interdepartmental Commission for Perpetuating the Memory of the Victims of War and Political Repression. To carry out this type of activity, the permission of the State Interdepartmental Commission, agreed with local authorities, is required.

      Now ask if this has been done ?! These soldiers can be buried only by “state people” who are given the right to exhumation and they are obliged to do this at the existing Memorial Cemetery on Dergachi, and only there, and not engage in amateur performances.

      And try to find information about the soldiers buried under the chapel in the archives of the Russian Defense Ministry. For example, Lipovsky Vladimir Efimovich is still reported missing in June 1942, while his remains were found in 2009 and buried under the chapel. Why didn’t the museum pass on information about him and others found by fighters in the Russian Defense Ministry ?!
      Since 2010, the remains of more than five hundred fighters have been buried in the museum, among which some are identified, and information about the place of their burial was not received by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation.

      If "private traders" replace the State with themselves, then this is called anarchy and a mess. This very mess is the so-called “museum” with 35 batteries.
      The question is also to the Church, as to a “structure”, where there are rules for burial in their churches: whom, how and under what conditions.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 23 August 2017 10: 24
        +3
        Quote: Ostromir
        Now ask if this has been done ?! These soldiers can be buried only by “state people” who are given the right to exhumation and they are obliged to do this at the existing Memorial Cemetery on Dergachi, and only there, and not engage in amateur performances.

        The burial remained in the same place as it had been for 75 years. And there are tens of thousands of such graves in Russia, and they, in the vast majority, are NOT tolerated. And God forbid that there should be at least an obelisk over them. Immediately, the memory is immortalized by the chapel.
        In my opinion, this is normal and dignified.

        The fact that formalities are not followed and the established names of the deceased are not included in the corresponding lists of MO disgrace and this must be eliminated.
        Then the state and the cards in hand, to send this noble activity in the legal direction, IMHO. hi
        1. Ostromirov
          Ostromirov 23 August 2017 10: 58
          0
          Olgovich!

          That burial place with a monument located on the territory behind the fence of this “museum”, namely, fighters who died during the explosion in the second tower on December 17, 1941 and, then, spotters buried there, who died at the height of Suzdal, is OFFICIAL (“certified” ) since the days of the USSR.

          And there are thousands of such graves throughout Russia.

          But the remains that are now being discovered and they are raised by search engines DO NOT be their private property, with which they have the right to dispose of, as they might imagine, if it is not about black diggers.

          These remains: from the point of view of identification and subsequent burial, ONLY representatives of state and not private structures can deal with, which this type of museum is.
          They have bones lying in bags there for months waiting for a convenient date to be paraded by their funerals and speculated by patriotism!
          Moreover - whose bones are still unknown: maybe the Fritz, and maybe the brothers after the dashing 90s.

          The chapel is a CULT building in general, and not a Military Memorial. "God is God, Caesar is Caesarean."

          And the most interesting thing is when the lease term for this territory expires and other owners come to the land, for example, restaurateurs or "sanatorium workers" - for which they will need UNOFFICIAL burial places of more than 400 people at their side private traders from the museum dug in his "garden"?

          What is worthy here?


          Here is the state how You speak correctlye - and it is necessary to closely study this "museum" and everything that is happening on its territory.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 23 August 2017 12: 50
            +2
            Quote: Ostromir
            But the remains that are now being discovered and raised by search engines are NOT their private property, which they have the right to dispose of.

            No, they are not. But the fact that they dig out of nothingness is wonderful! The state, without wasting effort, can only streamline and direct in a legal direction.
            Quote: Ostromir
            The chapel is a CULT building in general, and not a Military Memorial. "God is God, Caesar is Caesarean."

            Yes Yes: The Cathedral of Christ the Savior- It is a collective cenotaph of the soldiers of the Russian Imperial Army who died in the war with Napoleon, on the walls of the temple are inscribed the names of officers who fell in the Patriotic War of 1812 and the Foreign Campaigns of 1797-1806 and 1813-1814.
            Quote: Ostromir
            And the most interesting thing is when the lease term for this territory expires and other owners come to the land, for example, restaurateurs or "sanatorium workers" - for which they will need UNOFFICIAL burial places of more than 400 people at their side private traders from the museum dug in his "garden"?

            Legitimize. What is the problem? Who refuses and argues with the obvious need for this?
            1. Ostromirov
              Ostromirov 23 August 2017 15: 59
              0
              Olgovich!

              So where does the ordering and the "private office", where it is not clear who brings in incomprehensibly whose bones, which are then buried by this office, like the remains of our fighters ?!
              This bacchanalia, which lasts for years, including after 2014, is not paid any attention by state and municipal structures. The Russian Ministry of Defense says that its register on the 35th battery does not have a military memorial cemetery, but it does not pay attention to the fact that there are “buried" the remains of servicemen who died during the defense of the Fatherland. This is generally - how?

              Cenotaph is not A REAL grave in an Orthodox chapel, where the ashes of a Muslim, atheist or Jew are walled up in the basement.
              And on the walls of the chapel from the outside there are NO signs that INSIDE it, generally, someone is buried.

              And how are you imagine, Olgovich, “legitimization” of actually a private cemetery on a leased territory, if there are no private cemeteries in the Laws of the Russian Federation?

              By the way and to whom Do you appeal - legitimize?
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 24 August 2017 11: 27
                +1
                Quote: Ostromir
                Cenotaph is not a REAL grave in an Orthodox chapel

                belay Kutuzov-WHERE is buried? What about Potemkin? What about emperors? What about Moscow princes? Where are the nameplates outside the temples? And how does this compare with yours:
                Ostromirov
                The chapel is a CULT building in general, and not a Military Memorial. "God is God, Caesar is Caesar"

                Further:
                Quote: Ostromir
                So where does the ordering and the “private office” go, where it is not clear who brings in incomprehensibly whose bones, which are then buried by this office, like the remains of our fighters ?!
                This bacchanalia, which lasts for years, including after 2014, is not paid any attention by state and municipal structures. The Russian Ministry of Defense says that its register on the 35th battery does not have a military memorial cemetery, but it does not pay attention to the fact that there are “buried" the remains of servicemen who died during the defense of the Fatherland. This is generally - how?

                This is bad and wrong. But what’s being dug up is good, the state’s only left is to direct it in the right direction.
                Quote: Ostromir
                By the way, and to whom do you appeal - “legitimize”?

                I thought you were a Sevastopol hi (Sevastopol, my favorite city, built concrete goods there)
                1. Ostromirov
                  Ostromirov 24 August 2017 19: 30
                  0
                  Olgovich!

                  And what, do you have doubts about the confessional affiliation of the Emperors and doubts about this “administration” of the Orthodox Church?

                  Or maybe you know what the “preferences” of the Red Army Mandel Isaac Yakovlevich about his burial after death were in the Orthodox chapel? Or maybe, most likely, KOMSOMOLETS and ATEIST, Lieutenant Lipovsky insisted on this?

                  No, neither you, nor “sticks” from the 35th battery and no one else knows. And as soon as we are talking about the fallen soldiers and commanders of the RED Army, and not the Imperial, then in relation to them, that is, ALL who died OUT of nationality and confessional affiliation to protect a secular, that is, not a religious state, the State LEGISLATED and determined the WHOLE ritual of their tradition the remains of the earth.

                  Do you want to challenge it? This is your right, as well as the right of others to ask those who THESE the laws of the State violates.

                  I, Olgovich, are a Sevastopol, but I don’t quite understand why already existing laws and LEGISLATIVE prescribed procedures regarding the remains of defenders not only of Sevastopol, but, in principle, should NOT be performed for the sake of some guys and girls from the “museum” on the 35th battery. Are you proposing to legalize lawlessness?
                2. Ostromirov
                  Ostromirov 24 August 2017 23: 08
                  0
                  Olgovich!

                  Kutuzov ?!

                  In Sevastopol, in the "Vladimir Cathedral on the hill", at one time the former "naval", which initially conceived as a tomb of the admirals - the ashes of 13 tsarist (Orthodox) admirals were laid to rest. And not one - Soviet.

                  Why, then, A. M. Chaly, who is the "real owner" of this, like, "museum", whose grandfather, V. Chaly, the Soviet admiral - with all the appropriate military honors buried in the cemetery of Kommunarov in Sevastopol, admits the remains of soldiers of the Soviet Red Army to be laid in concrete with unidentified confessional (or even none at all) - under the Orthodox chapel?

                  By NOT knowing that the directorate of this "museum" is doing it without his knowledge, or - consciously and deliberately?
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 25 August 2017 08: 08
                    +2
                    Quote: Ostromir
                    In Sevastopol, in the "Vladimir Cathedral on the hill", at one time the former "naval", which was originally conceived as the tomb of the admirals - the ashes of 13 tsarist (Orthodox) admirals were laid to rest

                    That is, now you yourself see that the temple above the grave is NORM, and not Caesar-Caesarean.
                    Quote: Ostromir
                    And not one - Soviet.

                    And what, in Soviet times, was the CHOICE ?! belay
                    Quote: Ostromir
                    permits to lay in concrete the remains of fighters of the Soviet Red Army of unidentified confessional (or even without such) affiliation - under the Orthodox chapel?

                    70% of the army in 1942-RUSSIAN. The rest, overwhelmingly, are also representatives of peoples professing Orthodoxy.
                    Atheists, non-atheists, speak incorrectly: religion was then poisoned quite officially.
                    Concrete is laid over ALL the remains: otherwise the monument will sag.
                    1. Ostromirov
                      Ostromirov 25 August 2017 12: 10
                      0
                      Olgovich!

                      Not a temple over the grave, but a burial in the temple. And this is not the norm, but special happening. Moreover, the decision in this case is made by the “authorities” of the church according to their canons, rules and requirements, and by MANDATORY agreement with the secular authorities, especially in a country where the church is separated from the State. And in which EVERYTHING, at first - just citizens, and only then - believers or unbelievers.

                      There was no choice ?! Olgovich, and what - he "is now" past the laws of the State? Then this is not a choice - it is a violation of existing legislation, which is more than clearly stated in the article.

                      DO NOT talk about whether an atheist is a person or a believer, it’s just INCORRECT if you bury the remains under the religious structure of any religion.

                      Olgovich!
                      I repeat once again, namely: the procedure for raising, identifying, storing and interred in the remains of soldiers who fell on the battlefields of the Great Patriotic War - STEP-BY-STEP is written LEGISLATIVE.
                      In fact, ALL points of this legislation in the “museum” on the 35th battery are violated and are being violated. The article is about this, and not about Kutuzov or Potemkin.

                      Partos said: "I fight - because I fight! " Do you argue just to argue?
                      Then the information is for you to think about, namely: at the cemetery, and the “museum” on the 35th battery was frantically written into the lists by the decision of the local authorities, so that they lag behind the “patriots” - the remains should be equipped with all the relevant norms, rules and requirements. There, in the "museum" - this is not. Leftovers - dumped into bags, and bags dumped for months in the garage.
                      The burial procedure, as long as it does not stop there and is put on stream, should be carried out EXCLUSIVELY by the structures of the city government, and not by “private museum workers”. And the city authorities MUST answer for these burials in terms of their maintenance and care for them, and not the "museum workers".
                      Do you want to challenge these claims?
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 25 August 2017 13: 32
                        +1
                        [quote = About hi stromirov] Partos said: "I fight - because I fight!". Do you argue to just argue? [/ Quote]
                        I expressed my position, I repeat:
                        1. the temple above the grave (the grave in the temple is the same — UNDER the temple) —absolutely normal, traditional (Kutuzov, Potemkin, Kornilov, Borodino, etc., etc.) and respectfully.
                        2. What the remains are looking for is wonderful. The state is obliged to direct this in a legal direction.
                        For sim, I take my leave. hi
                        Beloved Sevastopol bow and hello! hi
    3. siberalt
      siberalt 22 August 2017 18: 42
      0
      Rock is generally devilish. Here I completely agree with the author - sacrilege on the bones.
      1. medvedron
        medvedron 23 August 2017 03: 00
        +1
        Devilry is the current pop music some texts of which are worth, not to mention the appearance.
      2. Vend
        Vend 23 August 2017 09: 11
        +2
        Quote: siberalt
        Rock is generally devilish. Here I completely agree with the author - sacrilege on the bones.

        Devilry speak?
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxF7GLd8QcA АЛИСА "Небо славян"
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y36BqK5xcd0 чёрный кофе деревянные церкви Руси
  2. Gardamir
    Gardamir 22 August 2017 07: 26
    +1
    What did you want? Business!
  3. VAZ2106
    VAZ2106 22 August 2017 07: 45
    0
    fully support
  4. Serg65
    Serg65 22 August 2017 08: 24
    +14
    As soon as it turned out that the graves were being passed with gross violations of the law, the head of one of the public organizations of Sevastopol, Elena Golubeva, sent statements to the prosecutor's office, the police and the Ministry of Defense.

    Interesting oil painting !!!! Until the 2003 year, as everyone did not give a damn about the memory of the fallen, from 2003 to 2017, people who cared for the decency of the complex also showed themselves poorly. Now what has changed? What required these people to be so active? Interest? Then what is the interest?
    This is “Our Crimea” for you, and not what else!

    Mr. Skomorokhov, please tell me, but “Nevsky Piglet” where children still play football with skulls, “Mamaev Kurgan”, where hundreds of thousands of our fighters were erected at the stadium, and all the forgotten Rzhev forests and swamps are “Our Crimea”? Probably not "Our", there are no tidbits there as in Sevastopol!
    Yes, in Sevastopol, anywhere in the world, dig into the remnants of our soldiers! Ahhhh activists, the Mekenzew Mountains, Balaklava, Lyubimovka, Baydar Gate are waiting for you so much !!!!
    In one I agree, play rock and sing dances in such places
    1. AlexKP
      AlexKP 22 August 2017 08: 40
      +3
      Since ancient times, the Slavs sang songs, danced, organized a feast and war games during burial. Trizna is called.
      "The purpose of the tripod was to drive away evil forces from the living. In modern Russian, the word tripod is mainly used as part of phraseologism to commit a tripod and is understood mainly as a feast in honor of the deceased, a wake.

      In addition to the commemoration, the trip included a ritual of washing the deceased, dressing (dressing in the best clothes, jewelry), a ritual vigil by the body of the deceased, which could be accompanied by ritual fun, and burning the corpse on a special platform called the steal. The Slavic pagans often encountered the usual burial, without burning, but it became overwhelming only after the spread of Christianity. "
      1. Serg65
        Serg65 22 August 2017 10: 11
        +2
        Quote: AlexKP
        Since ancient times, the Slavs sang songs, danced, organized a feast and war games during burial. Trizna is called.

        On the parade ground at the entrance to the battery casemates were spectators and the stage. He played a symphony orchestra, read poetry, the Marines performed a demonstration under a war song

        This was a trisen !!!
        A memorial concert in honor of the end of the city’s defense was crowned by a speech by O. Kormukhina and her husband, A. Belov (ex-member of the Gorky Park group), who staged a clowning on stage.

        And this is from the evil one and here I completely agree with Roman !!!
      2. Setrac
        Setrac 23 August 2017 21: 08
        0
        Quote: AlexKP
        Since ancient times, the Slavs sang songs, danced, organized a feast and war games during burial. Trizna is called.

        Amendment - not during burial, but during the burning of the dead.
        1. AlexKP
          AlexKP 24 August 2017 08: 18
          +1
          If you carefully read the comment
          “In addition to the commemoration, the trizny included the ritual of washing the deceased, dressing (dressing in the best clothes, jewelry), a ritual vigil by the body of the deceased, which could be accompanied by ritual fun, and burning the corpse on a special platform called steal. Slavic pagans often met and the usual burial, without burning, but it became overwhelming only after the spread of Christianity. "
    2. Fotoceva62
      Fotoceva62 22 August 2017 09: 02
      +7
      There is a museum with 35 batteries and this is a full-fledged museum. The concert is not on the grave, but on the territory that you will agree two big differences.
      I like Sevastopoltsu the background of these sucked from the finger
      libel is understandable ... There is no museum of defense? Wipe your eyes and see, but you have different goals. I am ashamed gentlemen, although what I'm talking about ...
      Sevastopol is one big memorial, and every year the remains of the defenders of the Motherland are raised here, but the city lives and relying on a glorious past directed toward the future.
      1. Ostromirov
        Ostromirov 22 August 2017 15: 17
        +1
        Fotoceva62!

        Museum, you say? About the defenders of the motherland?

        But how do you comment on the fact that at the exhibition about “those who went into immortality” in this museum portraits of fascists from the “Ziegler group” were shown and their military way to destroy Soviet citizens was described?

        If you are a Sevastopol, then you should be ashamed to praise such an abomination performed by the “museum” on the 35th battery.
        1. The comment was deleted.
    3. ARES623
      ARES623 22 August 2017 09: 44
      +5
      Quote: Serg65
      In one I agree, play rock and sing dances in such places

      Remember the Red Square in Moscow. Nothing, that there are also dozens of graves from different eras, moreover, "iconic" faces? And there, whatever it is arranged - festivities, and parades, and concerts, and many, and often ...
      1. Serg65
        Serg65 22 August 2017 10: 15
        +3
        Quote: ARES623
        Remember the Red Square in Moscow.

        When I began to read the article, it was immediately Red Square and came to my memory!
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 22 August 2017 11: 24
        +4
        You can also about Marsovo cladbishte field in St. Petersburg to remember - with festivals and concerts.
        1. Paranoid50
          Paranoid50 22 August 2017 16: 54
          +1
          Quote: Alexey RA
          You can also remember about the Martian cemetery field in St. Petersburg - with festivals and concerts

          So, on Mars weddings are constantly played. No, it’s not the laying of flowers at the monuments, as it was in the USSR, namely, guzhban with champagne, brides, and blue guests. And by the way, mountains today. authorities excluded Marsovo from the list of Hyde Parks. Some "Protestants" have already staged a rally at Smolny.
    4. BAI
      BAI 22 August 2017 15: 41
      0
      Ahhhh activists, the Mekenzew Mountains, Balaklava, Lyubimovka, Baydar Gate are waiting for you so much !!!!

      Meat boron and Vyazma are not indicated. Uman is already Ukraine.
  5. baudolino
    baudolino 22 August 2017 08: 42
    +3
    Since the Bolsheviks introduced the tradition of arranging burials wherever they fall, the question of the rules in this matter remains open. On Red Square, which has become part of the burial ground, you can give a concert.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 22 August 2017 11: 25
      +6
      This began before the Bolsheviks - the victims of the February Revolution were buried on the Field of Mars.


      Procession beginning at 9 o’clock. 30 minutes. ended well after midnight. At least 800 thousand people passed by mass graves on the Field of Mars. The presence of members of the Provisional Committee of the State Duma, the Provisional Government, and deputies of the Petrograd Council emphasized the special, nationwide nature of the event. Military and naval minister A.I. Guchkov, accompanied by the commander of the Petrograd Military District, General L.G. Kornilov arrived at the Field of Mars at 10 o’clock. The minister knelt before the graves and crossed himself.
  6. Curious
    Curious 22 August 2017 14: 49
    +2
    “Let’s recall everyone by name
    We will remember our grief.
    It is necessary - not dead!
    It must be alive .... "
    The remains of Russian soldiers of World War II ... 1812 are still found in Lithuanian forests.
    In total, the Ministry of Defense of Russia recorded about 32 thousand military burials, which number more than 7 million people. About 2 million 600 thousand are known by name. It remains about 4 million 600 thousand.
    According to the data published by the Russian Foreign Ministry, the names of less than ... 5,5 million of those who were buried abroad are more than 1 million.
    According to the Ministry of Defense, 19 military graves were certified in Russia, in which 044 people were buried, of which 3 were buried - “unknown soldiers”. At the same time, about 076% of burials have not yet been certified.
    So maybe in Sevastopol is also not the most critical situation? Maybe so often about Sevastopol is not worth it?
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 22 August 2017 15: 11
      +3
      Quote: Curious
      So maybe in Sevastopol is also not the most critical situation? Maybe so often about Sevastopol is not worth it?

      laughing Well, how not worth it? The resort area, the people on the 35 th rush unmeasured! Such a tidbit and you say it’s not worth it !!!!!
      1. Curious
        Curious 22 August 2017 15: 15
        0
        I did not want to offend anyone with suspicions, but experience suggests that if someone lights Crimean stars, someone really likes them.
  7. BAI
    BAI 22 August 2017 15: 37
    0
    also educational and popularizing activities.

    If you approach from this point of view of museums in Russia - a few.
  8. Vend
    Vend 23 August 2017 17: 49
    0
    Ostromirov,
    I have already spoken out in essence. What he considered necessary, he said.
  9. Bort radist
    Bort radist 24 August 2017 06: 53
    +1
    In the morning I got the good news that now it’s very rare. Many representatives of the oldest profession are looking only ........
    An interesting incident occurred during the NATO Noble Jump rapid reaction exercises held this year in Romania. The Bulgarian contingent of soldiers, led by their officers, flatly refused to shoot at targets that resembled Russian soldiers.

    The similarity of targets with the Russian army could have been admitted unintentionally - targets were made from billboards and did not repaint. However, the Bulgarians still refused to open fire on targets, the identification marks on which, in their opinion, resembled Russian ones.

    Totally here - https://tsargrad.tv/news/bratushki-pomnjat-bolgar
    skie-soldaty-otkazalis-streljat-po-russkim-na-uch
    enijah-nato_81582? utm_referrer = https% 3A% 2F% 2Fzen.
    yandex.com
    1. Bort radist
      Bort radist 24 August 2017 06: 58
      0
      And in pursuit - At the Universiade our FOOTBALLERS !!! beat the USA with a score of 8: 0. fellow
      http://news.sportbox.ru/universiade/spbnews_NI773
      148_Sbornaja_Rossii_uchinila_razgrom_SShA_na_Univ
      ersiade? utm_referrer = https% 3A% 2F% 2Fzen.yandex.com
  10. Overlock
    Overlock 24 August 2017 09: 44
    0
    But next to Red Square is also a necropolis. And they hold music competitions, performances by artists, etc.
  11. Overlock
    Overlock 24 August 2017 09: 47
    0
    Quote: BAI
    Meat boron and Vyazma are not indicated.

    On Meat Bor, a power line was also made. Bones of a soldier with bulldozers. And this is "no one is forgotten?"
  12. Konstantin Yu
    Konstantin Yu 24 August 2017 17: 21
    0
    Was recently at the 35th .. looked .. Thank you for saving, but not much left. As I understand it, the receivers of scrap metal in Sevastopol didn’t bathe from where the cutting was, some cut it, others paid ... in general, like everywhere else. It was rushed that the 35th guides possess "secret knowledge", and only THEY know how everything was and where the fate of Moscow really was decided.
    Intrigued .. prompted to study the Chronicle of Defense http://www.e-reading.club/bookreader.php/141990/V
    aneev _-_ Sevastopol% 27_1941_1942._Hronika_geroiche
    skoii_oborony._Kniga_1_% 2830.10.1941_02.01.1942% 2
    9.html