Mexican warriors, eagles and jaguar warriors against the Spanish conquistadors. Who wrote us about them? (part three)

179
... until you are ignorant, will you love ignorance? ..
(Proverbs 1: 22)


Today we will deviate somewhat from the topic of studying the military affairs of the indigenous population of Central America during the years of the Spanish conquest. The reason is commonplace. Past publications again provoked a number of comments, well, let's say, containing statements that are very far from reality. Moreover, their authors did not even bother to remember that there is the Internet, and Google in it, and before you write something, you could look into them, and at least a little “get familiar” with this issue. Finally, one can turn to books, which, by the way, are also on the Internet in a generally accessible form. Among them, the simplest to learn and interesting from all points of view can be considered two: the first is “The Fall of Tenochtitlan” (Detgiz, 1956), Kinzhalova R. and “The Secret of Mayan Priests” (Evrika, 1975) Kuzmishcheva V. These are popular science publications very high level, honoring our Soviet historical science, and performed, despite all its "popularity", at a very high academic level. All this may well give an answer to the main question - “how do you know all this?”



Mexican warriors, eagles and jaguar warriors against the Spanish conquistadors. Who wrote us about them? (part three)


But books are books, but are there not secondary, but primary sources of our knowledge about those distant times that would not have been written by “deceitful Spaniards”, who only tried to fool the poor Indians and justify their own conquests?



It turns out that such sources exist and they were written by the Indians themselves, who, it turns out, had a peculiar script and were able to convey to us a lot of interesting information about their past. These are the so-called "codes". And since this is a very interesting and informative source, there is a sense in our narrative to make a “little hook” and ... get acquainted with these ancient sources of information about the life and culture of the peoples of Mesoamerica.


This is what the famous Madrid Codex looks like.

Let us begin with the fact that the Mesoamerican codes are written documents of its indigenous inhabitants - Indians, belonging both to the pre-Hispanic and early colonial periods, in which they mainly describe various historical and mythological events, describe their religious rituals, and everyday life ( For example, toll collection and litigation are considered in detail. In addition, they also contain astronomical and special fortune-telling tables and much more.


Reproduction of the “Madrid Code” at an exhibition in the museum in Copan, in Honduras.

These peculiar books are a valuable monument of Mesoamerican history and culture. They are usually called by the names of researchers, owners, or by the place where they are stored today (for example, the "Florence Codex" is stored in Florence). Many museums exhibit facsimile copies of these codes. Well, the first such Mesoamerican codex that has been translated into Russian is the “Codex Teleleriano Remensis” (2010).


Codex Feyervari-Meier. World Museum, Liverpool.

What is the reason for the name of these “books”? The word "code" (lat. Codex) means "piece of wood", in the beginning they were written on wooden tablets. In Indian codes was used paper from the bark of different types of ficus, in the Aztec language called amatl, which in Spanish turned into amath. In the classical Mayan language, it sounded like huun (or hun) - “book,” “bark,” or “clothes made from bark.”


A copy of the book “Chilam Balam” in the National Museum of History and Anthropology in Mexico City.

Make paper, as you know, can be different. The Indians, for example, tore off long bark strips from the trees and cleaned them of a thick outer layer. Then these strips were soaked in water, dried and fought off on stones or wooden boards. This is how sheets that were several meters long were obtained, and to make them smooth, they were polished with stones and grounded in gypsum. In addition, since the same Yucatan peninsula was called in Maya “the land of turkeys and deer”, that is, there were deer, some of these codes were written on reindeer skin.


Figures from the Borgia Codex depicting the heavenly patrons of one of the 20 days of the month. This is one of the oldest Mesoamerican religious and prophetic manuscripts. It is believed that it was created before the conquest of Mexico in Pueblo State before the conquest of Mexico. It is the most significant book of the Borgia manuscript group — it was in his honor that all these manuscripts got their name. In the code of 39 sheets, which are made from dressed animal skins. Sheets are in the form of a square cm 27X27 cm, and its entire length is almost 11 meters. Drawings cover pages on both sides. They filled out their 76 pages. Read the Code should be right to left. The famous Italian cardinal Stefano Borgia owned it, after which it was acquired by the Vatican library.

Brushes for writing were made of rabbit fur, and mineral colors were used.


“Vatican Codex B (3773)”

The peculiarity of the codes was that they were folded with an accordion, with a "cover" of wood or tanned leather, with ornaments made of gold and precious stones. They read them laying out an accordion sheet by sheet, or immediately expanding such a book in its entire length.

This is all that concerns the codes themselves as certain information objects. Now let's see when and where they appeared and how they fell into the hands of the Europeans. To begin with, it is not known where exactly the manuscripts of the Indians appeared on paper.

In Teotihuacan, archaeologists found stones that were dated to the 6th century AD. e., similar to those used for making paper. Mayan books written on paper spread around the end of the 9th century. In addition, such peoples as Zapotec and Toltec, already in the III c. N. er had manuscripts on paper, and books were already around 660.

The Aztecs put the production of paper on an "industrial basis", and amatl was supplied to them and the tribes conquered as a tribute, and paper was used for writing and ... the very usual clerical work. It is also known that in the city of Teshkoko there was a library with a large collection of Mayan, Zapotec and Toltec manuscripts. That is, in this regard, the Indians of Mesoamerica differed little from the same Greeks and Romans in the early stages of their development.


“Codes Bodley,” pp. 21.

When the Spaniards began to conquer America, the codes, like many other monuments of Indian culture, were destroyed without an account. Many manuscripts perished during the siege of Tenochtitlan in 1521. But since there were a lot of “books”, some of them were preserved and were sent to Spain as souvenirs and trophies. And this is not surprising. Among the Spanish nobles there were not so few literate and even educated people who were interested in the history of other nations, not to mention the fact that the codes were unusual and beautiful. And if so, then ... why not bring them to your home in Spain?


And this is what the Bodley Codepages look like. Bodleian Library, Oxford University.

But there were also such codes that were written during the colonial period, moreover, at the direct instigation of European missionaries, who believed that they would help them to convert the Indians to Christianity more effectively. These codes were made as follows: local artists, under the supervision of the Spaniards, made drawings, after which signatures and explanations were added already in Spanish or in local Indian languages, written in Latin letters, or in Latin. Thus, the monks, and especially Franciscans were different, tried to fix Indian customs and even beliefs. That is, the “illustrated encyclopedias” of local life were created, which helped the Spaniards coming to New America to get acquainted with the local culture faster and ... learn to “understand the Indians.”


"Code Selden". Bodleian Library, Oxford University.

There is a view that “the colonial codes were intended to rebuild the minds and memory of the indigenous Mesoamericans. These codes, even those created by the Aztecs themselves, represented a historical narrative from the dominant Spanish point of view. ” Most likely this is the case. That is, they could "sign" the horrors of human sacrifice in order to show - "that's what we saved you from." But ... although this is no doubt so, two things are obvious. First: this approach contributed to the preservation of Indian pictographic writing. And second, that pre-Hispanic codes have survived, that is, there is a basis for comparing and comparing their texts. It should be noted that many of the later manuscripts were based on earlier, pre-Hispanic, or even completely copied from them. Well, how much modern science knows the codes of the colonial period? About five hundred! Not a small number, is it, and there is hope that as they study the old collections of documents, their number will grow. The fact is that so far many private libraries have not been completely disassembled and even ... attics in the castles of Spain and France, where there is nothing, but the owners themselves don’t want to do this, and they don’t allow themselves researchers.


"Code Becker".

How is the modern classification of Indian manuscripts? All codes are divided into two large groups: colonial and, respectively, pre-colonial. The second classification is codes of known and unknown origin.

The most numerous group of codes, of course, are those that were written after colonization. Hundreds of Aztec codes have reached our days, the most famous of which are the following: "Askatitlan Codex", "Boturini Code", "Bourbon Codex", "Vatican Codex A (3738)", "Weitius Codex", "Koskattsin Codex", " The Codex Malabacciano, Codex Tudela, Codex Ixtlilchochitl, Codex Mendoza, Codex Ramirez, Codex Aubin, Codex Osuna, Codex Telleriano-Remensis, Annals Tlatelolko, Code Ueshotsinko , “The Florence Codex” and many others, for the listing of which there is simply not enough space.


Codex Rios

Maya codes, as well as other nations, are much smaller and they are named for the libraries in which they are stored. These are: “Mishtek Codex”, “Codex Grolier”, “Dresden Codex”, “Madrid Codex”, “Paris Codex”. Here are some codes of historical content: “Becker Codes I and II”, “Bodley’s Code”, “Zush-Nuttall Code”, “Colombino Code”.

There are so-called “Codes of the Borgia,” but there is no information about their origin or who they were created by. And, most surprisingly, these codes are devoted to religious topics. These are: “Borgia Code”, “Code Laud”, “Vatican Code B (3773)”, “Code of Kospi”, “Code of Rios”, “Code of Porfirio Dias” and a number of others.


Zush Code Nuttall Pg. 89. Ritual duel. Modern drawing. The prisoner, tied to the sacrificial stone for the belt, fights simultaneously with two jaguar warriors. Tears flow from the captive's eyes. Interestingly, he is armed with two sticks (or is it stone pestles for flour?), But his opponents have shields and strange weapon in the form of gloves with jaguar claws.

Now let's at least selectively get acquainted with some of these codes in more detail, in order to have an idea about their content ...

To be continued ...
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179 comments
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  1. +4
    14 August 2017 07: 31
    “The Fall of Tenochtitlan” (Detgiz, 1956), Kinzhalova R. ... An excellent book, it captures from the very beginning. Thank you, Vyacheslav, we look forward to continuing ...
    1. +3
      14 August 2017 09: 37
      How I envy those who have good old books.
      1. +6
        14 August 2017 10: 42
        I was lucky, my grandfather still collected the capital work of our Leningrad scientists Magidovich - father and son, "Essays on the History of Geographical Discoveries." Although schematically and without details, the overall picture of the actions is indicated there. Handbook so far!
        By the way, hello everyone! fellow drinks

        I returned! Is everything on the site? haven't banned anyone, hopefully for blasphemy words? wink (to moderators - this is not a mate, this is an Old Slavonic word from the word "blaspheme drinks ).
        1. +2
          14 August 2017 11: 50
          Are these such green big books with a picture of the Columbus caravel on the cover?
          1. +4
            14 August 2017 12: 15
            There were several editions, the authors supplemented them.
            I have this - in five volumes, the size is standard, on the cover of each is a ship that changes from era to era - from a Viking boat to a modern ship. I bring the cover of the 2nd volume, it is the thickest, and is dedicated to the era of the Great Geographical Discoveries - from the Columbus expedition to the middle of the 17th century.
            1. +1
              14 August 2017 15: 26
              It was this one, only I had the color green. Very interesting publication. I also read in childhood ... excitedly.
              1. +3
                14 August 2017 15: 54
                I still read with pleasure! good people tried, you can’t say anything.
                In the first volume I really liked about the Norman colonies in Greenland. They existed until the second half of the 15th century! But if Columbus and his story is a discovery for the whole world, then, according to the Magidovich, the Scandinavians sailed to their colonies in Greenland, and almost considered that it was also part of Europe. At least, they did not find anything particularly surprising, that is, they lived in a relatively familiar world!
                I am pre-Columbian America generally interesting. Even in the tales of St. Brandan (even before the Viking campaigns!) You can see references to the discovery of America.
        2. +1
          15 August 2017 20: 10
          Where, Nikolay? Good evening!
          1. +2
            16 August 2017 01: 06
            Anton, took a week off! Spent in the country. Now I am depicting a six-armed - the chief accountant on vacation. laughing
            1. +1
              16 August 2017 04: 47
              Great, especially lucky for the weather! (And of course, if the cottage is not a Komsomol construction site and not 6 hundred parts of import substitution)
              1. 0
                16 August 2017 12: 27
                6 acres, but + 3 acres of forest belt for rent. That is, the forest is right in your yard. The river is 10 minutes. We are slowly redoing the plot for ourselves - before that, the "pigs" lived. So I think what can be done with the inherited strong barn, in which the previous owners made the chicken coop - to immediately break, or try to scrape off. what according to the weather - it was stuffy, it spilled only on Sunday. There are no mushrooms! I mean, very few. Maybe lucky this weekend drinks
                1. +1
                  16 August 2017 20: 15
                  Breaking, definitely! I’m telling you as a builder! If necessary, I’ll drive up, I recommend something. Write in a personal.
      2. +2
        14 August 2017 12: 15
        Dmitry, good morning! I agree with you regarding books, but they also pose another problem. In my 1961 house, they occupied a bookcase and two shelves, and also ... in the barn, oh, how much space. Today, in a 4 = x room apartment in 2017, they occupy a full-wall wardrobe in the hall, half of the bay window here and another mezzanine in the hallway and three (!) Sofas. And also a wardrobe in my granddaughter’s room, a wardrobe in my room, a wardrobe in my daughter’s room (!) + A table and two drawers under the table where I work, and another shelf on the windowsill! And this is dust, difficulties with the search ... And this despite the fact that I throw away all the educational literature over 5 years old or give it to the library! Not in our area! Apart from the two-story house of the Tudor era, this is D. Nicolas’s own studio in the yard - 50 sq.m. where there are bookcases with books to the ceiling and 4 tables for all types of work. So you can save books, right ?!
        1. +4
          14 August 2017 12: 33
          Good morning, Vyacheslav. Our family was moving away, moving, moving in, changing territories. Many books "left" because of this. Sadness And the problem of the place concerns me too. But for the time being, I am looking for sealing options through compaction. I am against keeping books in the country, and also against going to the loggia, although everything is in the best shape there. I am happy to notice that old furniture wears out by itself, maybe the process will go and it will be possible to do everything conveniently for books! Then mom will agree to replace all the furniture! Of course, some say that you don’t need to listen to my mother, because my income is much larger. This is wrong, I think.
  2. +6
    14 August 2017 08: 18
    “Past publications again provoked a number of comments, well, let's say, containing statements that are very far from reality. Moreover, their authors did not even bother to remember that there is the Internet, and Google, and before you write something, you could and look into them, and at least a little in this matter, "shoe".
    So the “commentators” you mentioned there were “forged” in Google '.
    Earlier, the author was confronted with the expertise of his work: scientific publishers evaluated the scientific value and reliability, relevance and popularity of the topic, the originality of the form, etc. That is, all the information passed through a sieve of professional expertise. Now a similar system is the destiny of the elect.
    But in Google there is no barrier between the producer of information and the consumer. So we have the information Klondike - mountains of rock and grains of gold. And the consumer’s lack of skills to extract useful information. And in general, in most cases we are not talking about the analysis of sources.
    The basis should be laid in the form of a minimum of general knowledge and principles of information culture.
    And without this - that’s how Karamzin is on the net, and there are Rybakov, and Pavlenko is both Fomenko with Nosovsky, and Zadornov with Klesov. There are a lot of things.
    But Google does not indicate who to prefer.
    1. +2
      15 August 2017 20: 21
      Damn, well, I can, copy-paste, and, I will not go to any country described, poking around in the archives, but, I will write an article to which you can not add anything! Pure sport, nothing personal. Thanks for the support!!!
  3. 0
    14 August 2017 10: 09
    Native American codes are not books, but "funny pictures", comics - i.e. a subject of fine art, not literature.
    1. +1
      14 August 2017 10: 33
      Not all! There are also those that are RECORDED by the Mayan hieroglyphs, the Latin transcription of the Nahuatl language, and actually Latin. Pay attention to the image of the Madrid Code. Hieroglyphic text goes on each page - hieroglyphics - small ovals, circled in black.
      1. 0
        14 August 2017 11: 18
        Latin or Latin transcription are not considered - this happened under the influence of the Spaniards after the conquest.

        I did not find in the illustrations for the article "small ovals, circled in black" with hieroglyphic text.
        1. 0
          14 August 2017 11: 53
          I wrote - "Madrid Code"
        2. +4
          14 August 2017 11: 57

          In fact, these are not hieroglyphs. These are fingerprints of Native American children who leafed through comics without washing their hands after playing the sacrifice.
          1. +1
            14 August 2017 12: 07
            Where did you see the hieroglyphs - in black circles with a uniform pattern or at points with strokes, Knozorov are you our outskirts? laughing
            1. +1
              14 August 2017 12: 25

              Hieroglyphs are surrounded by white. Red - numbers. What is ticked off do not know what it is. But you remembered well about Knorozov. He has the awesome Mayan Writing book and is available online.
              1. 0
                14 August 2017 13: 26
                I read the book of Knozorov in the original.

                This I faked Curious'a, who "heard the ringing, but does not know where he is" laughing
                1. +2
                  14 August 2017 15: 07
                  I really did not know that the work of Knorozov was faked and copied. Wow. And you bothered in the original. Lucky.
                  1. 0
                    14 August 2017 17: 51
                    The original is paper, printing, hardcover, hundreds of thousands of authentic copies on tangible media.
                    1. +3
                      14 August 2017 18: 39
                      And so it was you who was lucky to read the BOOK in its original, so to speak, form. Previously, according to some reports, all people had the opportunity to read them, and in school students were even forced to read them.
                      1. 0
                        14 August 2017 21: 13
                        I'm glad that such a simple thought reached you laughing
            2. +3
              14 August 2017 12: 54
              Quote: Operator
              Where did you see the hieroglyphs - in black circles with a uniform pattern or at points with strokes, Knozorov are you our outskirts? laughing

              In the book "Secrets of the Mayan and Aztec Priests", in the books of Arguelles, and even in the old socialist children's book "In the Maze of Numbers", a translation of EXACTLY these icons is written. Point = 1, stroke = 5, and a square sign (often replaced sink) = 0! THIS --- NUMBERS !!! 20-decimal number system !!! Three sticks and one point = 16 !!! That's an example. The simplest number system invented by people !!! And moreover, positional.
              1. 0
                14 August 2017 13: 28
                Numbers are not hieroglyphs by definition.
            3. +2
              14 August 2017 12: 58
              As Mikhail Weller said, at every celebration of life, his unbeliever must necessarily be present. High mission ...
          2. +6
            14 August 2017 12: 44
            In fact, these are not hieroglyphs. These are fingerprints of Native American children who leafed through comics without washing their hands after playing the sacrifice.

            appreciated your "black" Native American humor drinks
          3. +4
            14 August 2017 18: 37
            And circles, why fingerprints circled? I saw one cave, there rock paintings circled the marker, but so that the prints circled.
    2. +4
      14 August 2017 10: 46
      I give you a link to the "tale of the Russian linguist" http://www.k2x2.info/istorija/skazka_o_russkom_li
      ngviste_rasshifrovavshem_pismennost_indeicev_maij
      a / p1.php
      it just mentions the Dresden Mayan codex or as you say wink "funny pictures".
    3. +1
      14 August 2017 11: 25
      This culture is much older than ours. And it is not known how it would have developed, if not for the malicious Spanish conquerors.
      1. +2
        14 August 2017 11: 36
        When the Sumerians mastered cuneiform writing, the Indians roamed the jungle with stone axes. They did the same thing when the Egyptians invented hieroglyphs, and the Phoenicians - the alphabet.

        I'm not talking about the invention of the wheel and horse-drawn vehicles in the 4 millennium BC. in the Balkans and the smelting of metals in Asia Minor in the 2 millennium BC, which was not in the New World from the word at all.

        All the primitive cultures of the Americas are dated by our era, i.e. at least 2-4 thousands of years younger than European and Asian. At the same time, the Indians living in the Stone Age could independently reach the level of civilizations of the Old World after a few more millennia.
        1. +2
          14 August 2017 11: 58
          Here you are completely right. They remained in the copper-stone age, while Europe and Asia have long stepped into the iron. Individual achievement? Yes there were, but in general the lag was very noticeable. Could they reach the European level and how quickly? Could most likely. But here is how fast? If we take the pace of their development and extrapolate the vector into the future from the level that the Spaniards found, we will get at least ... 500 years (minimum!), That is, a huge interval for the human community. And this if you do not take cataclysms, for example, the eruption of the same volcano Popokapetl!
          1. 0
            14 August 2017 12: 04
            The age of the Indians was stone - native copper does not count (metal centuries indicate the smelting of metals).

            As for the progress of Indian civilizations - I do not know, the Egyptians and Chinese have not mastered the alphabet, the invention of a wheel in the New World in the absence of horses is also problematic, and the Indians before firearms were like before the Moon - thousands of 5 years.
          2. +4
            14 August 2017 12: 31
            For some reason, stating that the Mesoamerica civilizations lag behind the European civilizations, no one wondered if they needed that progress. If you go a little deeper into the theory of social progress, then the conclusion suggests itself that the Mesoamerican Indians created a balanced, harmonious society, devoid of contradictions and fools. People had a Golden Age. And that progress and nafig was not needed, no matter how you look.
            Take Hegel and his Absolute Spirit or World Idea.
            According to Hegel, an absolute super-subject that sets history in motion has a special tool for this - a contradiction as a universal being structure that is present in all spheres of natural, social and spiritual being, including the content of legal reality. Due to the emergence, aggravation and resolution of countless contradictions, the movement of all forms of the existing and due in the world, society and culture is carried out.
            Based on the foregoing, there are no contradictions - there is no movement. But nowhere is it said that it is bad.
            Modern theory stresses that the basis for the development of society is the production activity of people aimed at meeting their needs.
            Moreover, human needs are not something that has been given for centuries, unchanging, they are historically formed as an objective necessity. Producing the products of his being, man also produces his needs. Moreover, a satisfied need gives rise to new needs (there is an objective nature of the law of exaltation of needs) and thereby necessitates the search for new ways and means to satisfy them.
            Maybe it's about the Indians, Bernard Shaw said: "A sane person adapts to the world, reckless persists in his attempts to adapt the world for himself. Therefore, all progress depends on reckless people."
            1. +2
              14 August 2017 15: 21
              Yes, since no one has yet proven back.
            2. +1
              16 August 2017 15: 13
              Yuval Harari considers these issues.
              in his "Brief History of Humanity" (I recommend to fans of systematization
              stories).
              About "goals in life", "happiness" as elements of the evolution of the human race.
          3. +3
            14 August 2017 14: 41
            extrapolating the vector ..... then we get at least ... 500 years (minimum!)

            once the customer wrote me the word "extrapolate" and broke my brain and tongue laughing I'm not used to such complicated phrases wink more years will work, taking into account "I'm not talking about the invention of wheels and horse-drawn vehicles"By the way, in the last picture, at first there was a feeling that two" jaguars "were beating a crying circus rider on a wheel, then he remembered that there couldn’t be any wheels. Does he (the offended one) seem to be attached to something round?
      2. 0
        14 August 2017 12: 02
        Much older than ours and the culture of Australian Aboriginal people. The result of its development is known to us! And where would they be now, if the British hadn’t come, who gave them at least something (and, by the way, do not take freedom "is something").
        1. 0
          14 August 2017 13: 37
          The antiquity of all cultures of the peoples of Asia, Europe, America and most of Africa is the same - about 60 of thousands of years when the distribution of all races of the homo sapiens species began on the planet from South China, with the exception of the Hottentots and Bushmen, carriers of the African haplogroups A, A0, A00 and A000 (differing anatomically from other races and having the antiquity of their culture 250 for thousands of years).

          Another thing is to what heights each of the cultures managed to rise before the era of the Great geographical discoveries.
          1. +2
            14 August 2017 15: 21
            Quote: Operator
            The antiquity of all cultures of the peoples of Asia, Europe, America and most of Africa is the same - approximately 60 thousand years when the distribution of all races of the homo sapiens species began on the planet from the region of South China ..

            There are slightly different opinions. In particular: A find in North America of a copper-containing coin / medal with images of gods with syllabic runic writing age, judging by the depth (as a result of digging a deep well), estimated at 160 thousand years. In addition, do not forget about the excavated cultures in the Lena River region, where the age already exceeds 2 million years. Well and not far from that place is culture on the Yamal Peninsula, with signs of metallurgical production. It is interesting, and where people came to southern China 60 thousand years ago, there is an assumption that from the territory of North America. The truth of the data is still not enough to clarify the full picture of the movement of human cultures and ethnic groups. Actually, the age of the African branch of humanity does not exceed the age of the northern, Siberian branch.
  4. 0
    14 August 2017 12: 06
    Curious: "This author used to face the expertise of his work: scientific publishers evaluated the scientific value and reliability, relevance and popularity of the topic, the originality of the form, etc. That is, all the information passed through a sieve of professional expertise. Now such a system is the destiny of the elect."

    Answer: now this is also there. If you are applying for a grant for the publication of a scientific monograph or a popular science publication through the RHF-RFBR.

    But, alas, not all publications in our country pass through this “channel”.
  5. +1
    14 August 2017 13: 24
    As everyone knows, ~~~ in the XNUMXth century AD, Yucatan was conquered by the Toltecs, Mishtecs, and Zapoteques under the leadership of Quetzalcoatl's "next incarnation". But after all, between the territory of the settlement of Mishteks and Sapoteks (on the one hand) and Yucatan (on the other), the Miche and Soke tribes currently live, which, incidentally, speak an independent family of languages! So, the conquerors "" passed "" through the territory of these two tribes ???????????? I don’t have any information about Mikhe and Soke --- neither in books, nor in the press, not even the simplest, nor even on the Web !!!!!!!!!!!! To this question --- deathly silence and ignoring. Maybe there will be an answer to this question.
    1. +2
      14 August 2017 14: 24
      And here.
      Wichmann, Søren, 1995, The Relationship Among the Mixe-Zoquean Languages ​​of Mexico. University of Utah Press. Salt Lake City. ISBN 0-87480-487-6
      Campbell, L., and T. Kaufman (1976), A Linguistic Look at the Olmecs, American Antiquity.
      1. +2
        14 August 2017 15: 11
        Thank you, Victor. I have found links to the first book in articles.
        1. +2
          14 August 2017 15: 30
          Dmitry, search the Internet for the Codex Tellerian-Remensis. It is laid out entirely and translated into Russian. With very interesting pictures 306 pages. Look and read, get a lot of fun!
          1. +2
            14 August 2017 19: 43
            Thank you, Vyacheslav, found, read. The drawings and explanations are just great !!
  6. +3
    14 August 2017 21: 58

    Modern reconstruction of the RITUAL FIGHT!
    The artist armed the prisoner with a wooden sword and this allowed the prisoner to plunge "EAGLE".
    1. +4
      15 August 2017 01: 29
      Alexei, you are always welcome. They are able to draw. Unlucky Eagle. At one time, Gorelik in his articles saw drawings of Indian warriors - including those from the 1st millennium A.D. Who knows, maybe V.O. Shpakovsky and get to them? I am interested in the topic of pre-Columbian America.
    2. +2
      15 August 2017 08: 26
      This is a drawing of Adam Hook from a book by John Paul and Charles M. Robinson. The picture shows the battle in which Tlauikol participated - the commander of the Tlashkoltecs. And he killed more than one eagle warrior. And EIGHT MAN, warriors of eagles and jaguars! For such incredible courage, the Aztecs offered to save his life and become their "general." But Tlauikol refused and went to the altar stone of the god Huitzilopochtli.
      1. +1
        15 August 2017 08: 59
        Strong was a WARRIOR! Brave! But these qualities of him did not protect him from captivity and DEATH, even though HEROIC on the altar ...
        That's life!
        It is in the books of Conan that even managed to lie on the sacrificial altars to defeat the enemies and their DARK GODs ...
        1. +3
          15 August 2017 09: 34
          This is in the books of Conan even managed to lie on the sacrificial altars to defeat enemies

          and in the militants GG can fill up half of the city’s bandits in half with the civilian population, and he won’t have anything for it laughing drinks
        2. +1
          15 August 2017 12: 48
          I always wondered why this is so little covered by women in all the action films and in all the drawings of what kind of women. I understand - to dance in front of the padishah ... But they go to battle like that. This is bad luck. And the nitsitniks are so small that they protect nothing and nothing!
          1. +2
            15 August 2017 12: 59
            Western publishers and readers probably thought, AND CONTINUE TO CONSIDER that since the Main character does without SUCCESS, SATELLITE HIS SATELLITES SHOULD PLEASURE EYES WITH Nude BODIES!
            IT WILL SAVE THEM FROM ANY TROUBLE ... AND THEY SHOULD BE READY TO THANK IT AT ANY MOMENT OF THE DAY OR NIGHT! SO FOR THIS EXTRA CLOTHES ... laughing

            artist Roman Papsuev - Heroes of Bylin and Tales in the New World ...
            Ours is better ...
            1. +2
              15 August 2017 13: 27
              as far as I remember, among the fans of online games there is even the concept of "armored". laughing "protection from everything" type.
              1. +2
                15 August 2017 14: 43
                A HELMET in the form of KOKOSHNIKOV did not meet in these games?
                1. +3
                  15 August 2017 14: 53
                  A HELMET in the form of KOKOSHNIKOV did not meet in these games?

                  I have never been an apologist for these activities. A friend used to be fond of - in Allods, until they banned him. negative Well to hell with it, vodka and women are nicer! drinks as well as a car (discover new places for yourself), cottage, mushrooms, barbecue, fishing drinks Yes, and the company on the "Military Review" good stolen up.
                  1. +2
                    15 August 2017 14: 56
                    For the cottage, barbecue and fishing (I’m not a mushroom picker) drinks
                    1. +3
                      15 August 2017 15: 09
                      voooot! good to each his own, and it’s wonderful! the main thing is that it fits into the norms of morality, morality, the Criminal Code and the Code of Administrative Offenses. drinks and from me a fisherman .. No. the neighbor on Friday caught a pike for a couple of kilograms, even envied with "white envy." I - so, sip a small galley, if only.
                      1. +2
                        15 August 2017 15: 14
                        I myself am still a fisherman - But sometimes a bucket of crucian carp is better than one pike! Besides cleaning the catch of course ...
                        People sometimes spend more on fishing than some on online games! This is their right! And money! If there are extra ones, let them spend it! And we catch carp and carp with a brush! drinks
                      2. +2
                        15 August 2017 15: 29
                        Article in OPINIONS - The Bundeswehr is in a panic good good good good RECOMMEND!
            2. +3
              15 August 2017 14: 57
              Ours is better ...

              Yeah ... okay Alyonushka, but I looked at brother Ivanushka ... what kind of puddle did he get so drunk from?
              1. +2
                15 August 2017 14: 59
                Signature in the picture - 10 YEARS LATER... Question - THAN ALEENUSHA FEED BROTHER ??? WHAT ANABOLIC SILO?good
              2. +2
                15 August 2017 15: 07

                But Snegurochka - clever and beautiful - for 5 years, as she fed Lisa Partrikeevna!
                With such a Fox in the winter forest is not afraid to walk ...
                1. +4
                  15 August 2017 15: 17
                  N yes what apparently fed the same thing. The result is very clear. Question to the experts: "What was fed? What kind of secret new weapon?" wink
                  1. +2
                    15 August 2017 15: 23
                    This is by chance not the same “SECRET RUSSIAN WEAPON” from which the Bundeswehr tank-gunners can start visual hallucinations at shooting ranges? They T-34-85 and Is-2 seem to be! laughing
                    (the article in the OPINIONS about these glitches is - "The Bundeswehr is in a panic")
                    And OUR ANIMALS ARE GOING IN BENEFIT ... And the Zhenshins BEAUTIFUL BECOMING !!! good
                    1. +3
                      15 August 2017 15: 44
                      This is by chance not the same “SECRET RUSSIAN WEAPON” from which the Bundeswehr tank-gunners can start visual hallucinations at shooting ranges? They T-34-85 and Is-2 seem to be!

                      Shhh! winked We will not tell them about our national heritage - "SECRET RUSSIAN WEAPONS".
                      1. +1
                        15 August 2017 15: 46
                        drinks FOR SECRETUuuu .................. Tssssssssssssssssss laughing
                      2. +3
                        15 August 2017 17: 33
                        our secret weapon is the Belarusian partisan. And generally partisans. soldier Oops .. I blabbed, it seems .. belay
                2. +2
                  15 August 2017 15: 19
                  Awesome! What people just won’t think of!
                  1. +2
                    15 August 2017 15: 25
                    Opinion article - Bundeswehr in panic good good good
                3. +2
                  15 August 2017 21: 00
                  A specific, such a fox, wolves from the Game of Thrones are written with fear, and dragons think: “Maybe her, this Khalissi, maybe back to the hatter, is there at least a Red Book there ?!”
              3. +3
                15 August 2017 18: 14
                but I liked this one - although it has nothing to do with girls wink monumental! artist paints interestingly!
                1. +2
                  15 August 2017 18: 25
                  Oh, and the ear from this catfish, probably, mmmm good
                  1. +3
                    15 August 2017 18: 32
                    yes, probably. Soma ate only once in a lifetime. I like that he depicted him not as a fish, but as a kind of “war horse” with four legs.
                    1. +2
                      15 August 2017 18: 49
                      And what kind of armor is on the catfish! good Chivalrous? what
                      1. +1
                        16 August 2017 20: 47
                        catfish looks like a fighting cat laughing I’ll go to do the same on my mustachioed gray-striped Mikado - from foil. Joke! drinks in armor - to the esteemed Caliber. But he only deals with the real, not fantasy, in fairy tales which they just won’t come up with! wassat
                2. +3
                  15 August 2017 19: 52
                  In general, this is not as funny as it seems! These are ideas for business, for XX! century. This is a finished book for ... English and Americans: "Transformation of Russian Folklore" or "Russian Folk Tales of the Twentieth Century." Tales to rewrite to their standards of perception, and all the hero like that somehow dressed. That is, stylistically capture their imagery, merge it with ours and ... add this fantasy here. Then look for a publisher and make a book about the mysterious Russian soul. My acquaintance artist V. Korolkov, unfortunately deceased, went this way with the design of the anniversary gift edition "Ruslan and Lyudmila" and received a grant from the president, and then a book with his drawings was published in England. For 8 drawings, he received money for a vacation with his family in Sochi and a complete renovation in the "kopeck piece". For 8 !!! And if there will be ... 20-40? 90 pages of text?
                  1. +1
                    15 August 2017 21: 16
                    Yes, as one of my favorite writers of the NF says, when asked about the type of activity: "We bring hfignu to the masses."
                  2. +1
                    17 August 2017 23: 06
                    Vyacheslav Olegovich, explain to me, stupid Russian builder, what is a "European-quality repair"? How is it different from afro-repair? From Australopithecy repair?
                3. +1
                  15 August 2017 21: 02
                  Even his little shepherd reminds me of where he saw.
                  1. +2
                    16 August 2017 01: 08
                    in lampreys, most likely.
          2. +2
            15 August 2017 13: 37
            why is it that in all the action films and in all the drawings of what kind of women women are so little covered.

            Vyacheslav Olegovich, so this is a PR of pure water! The book, where the sissy is poured (a still-life, it's not some kind of silicone for you!), The main heroine directly gets into your eyes, it’s more interesting to read! Demand is greater, profit too. fellow although among us there are those who claim that it’s easier to fight with the loafer, especially if it’s equestrian - the ass doesn’t slip from the horse, squeezed the halves and chop your enemies good again, nothing restricts the movements, and you simply dodge enemy attacks. laughing EMNIP, in “The Diamond Thieves”, one character, preparing for a night outing, stripped naked and smeared with lard, which indirectly confirms the theory of “military hunger”. They can’t catch you - your hands slip, and you run between enemies and loin parts of them. fellow laughing
          3. +2
            15 August 2017 20: 50
            Well, the founder of this genre is Boris Valeggio, originally an illustrator, and indeed, often used male and female nature, and at first he photographed and then wrote. But interestingly, in nature, as a rule, he and his wife were, without noticeable exaggeration. Worthy of respect, right? And as for the level of sexuality (specifically, Valeggio), as Comrade said. Stalin, we will envy!
            1. +1
              16 August 2017 01: 08
              I wanted to mention him, you got ahead drinks
          4. +2
            16 August 2017 16: 19
            “I always wondered why this is so little covered by women in all the action films and in all the drawings of what kind” ///

            This is just understandable. A man, having seen a female naked body, freezes instead of a fight, his mouth is open ... belay
            And she him - to gnaw with a sword or spear. am "Another ... stare."
            1. +1
              16 August 2017 18: 11
              And she him - to gnaw with a sword or spear. am "Another ... stare."

              meanly wink but practical! good and if there is no sword or spear, then with the knee between the legs. angry
              1. +2
                17 August 2017 11: 35
                Why
                petty wink

                because no one forces you as the interlocutor said above
                Man, .... instead of fighting, freezes, mouth open ... belay
                1. +1
                  17 August 2017 12: 19
                  because no one forces you as the interlocutor said above

                  Then what do you recommend in such a situation? beat a naked woman? request tongue unaesthetic and not chivalrous stop drinks
                  1. +1
                    17 August 2017 12: 42
                    laughing One thing remains - to surrender to the mercy of the winner love
                    1. +2
                      17 August 2017 12: 59
                      yeah love "A woman on a ship is in trouble. Yesterday, the boatswain was pleased to be in trouble." fellow
                    2. +2
                      17 August 2017 16: 53
                      In the works of Yu. D. Petukhov, the main characters had to “defeat” the opposite sex ...
      2. +3
        15 August 2017 09: 33
        This is a drawing of Adam Hook from a book by John Paul and Charles M. Robinson.

        is it "Osprey"? just drawings, similar in style, are found in many books from the 90s. Or is it now generally accepted to draw in a similar gamut and manner of image?
        1. +1
          15 August 2017 12: 45
          Yes, these drawings of him were first in 2 Osprey editions. Then they got into a translation book published in Russia.
  7. +4
    15 August 2017 15: 27
    hohol95,
    I do not bother - a trifle that I catch, salt and sluggish. Beer business! drinks
    1. +2
      15 August 2017 15: 40
      drinks drinks drinks drinks drinks FOR FISHING ...
      1. +1
        15 August 2017 17: 35
        and good company! drinks
  8. +4
    15 August 2017 15: 47
    hohol95,
    drinks Always for !!!
    1. +2
      15 August 2017 16: 04
      So will you be of the WISE OF WISDOM? love
      1. +4
        15 August 2017 16: 27

        Yes Yes we are from there fellow love
        1. +2
          15 August 2017 16: 48
          hi Always respected women who love the military and weapons ...
  9. +2
    15 August 2017 15: 49
    Dear Vyacheslav - sorry for deviating from the topic of discussion of the article!
    The FEMALE ADVENTURES are to blame for everything ... what drinks
    1. +3
      15 August 2017 15: 56
      as well as beer and fishing! drinks
      drinks Always for !!!

      Elena - Elena, I now prefer Belarusian beer. Yes, I don’t have aesthetics, but in St. Petersburg it is being sold with might and main - it turns out, “Alivaria” is being cooked with might and main “Baltika”.
      1. +2
        15 August 2017 16: 05
        We don’t have such a beer request
        1. +3
          15 August 2017 16: 16
          “Lida” and “Alivaria”, I feel, will soon be throughout Russia. drinks
      2. +1
        15 August 2017 21: 25
        Well, I don’t know which one you prefer, but on the subject of the dark, “Persha Brovarya” steers! Irish and Czechs cry! It’s a pity, now there is a contraband product.
        1. +2
          16 August 2017 01: 10
          not beer specials! I was in Belarus for two weeks - I liked the Belarusian. I don’t know much about the rest, and I don’t try to appreciate request
    2. +2
      15 August 2017 18: 44
      Why blame ... The main goal in human life is reproduction! Everything serves this main purpose: fashion, hardly, songs and dances, houses and cars - war, finally! Everything around it ...
      1. +2
        15 August 2017 21: 34
        Reproduction - YES! BUT YOU LOST - SAVING AND PROTECTING THE PROPERTY, ITS EDUCATION AND CARE FOR THE ELDER GENERATIONS!
        Although in many fairy tales (before) children were also thrown and taken to the forest for death, and the old people were sent "peesh to the last journey" ...
        BOY FROM FINGER with brothers PARENTS FROM HUNGER THROWN IN THE FOREST ... hi
        Tale FALSE ...
        1. 0
          18 August 2017 16: 40
          Unfortunately, not a lie.
          1. 0
            18 August 2017 20: 36
            If you take the initial versions of many tales - it is not even a FALSE. And the real TRUTH!
      2. 0
        18 August 2017 16: 33
        I sometimes think: if we proceed from the postulate that life is a disease of matter, then humanity is the main pathogen.
  10. +2
    15 August 2017 15: 59

    Jaguar warrior
    Alexey Lebedev (sano4kin); Moscow, Perm, Russia
  11. +2
    15 August 2017 16: 00

    Aztec, warrior of the Order of the Eagle
    Alexey Lebedev (sano4kin); Moscow, Perm, Russia
    1. +5
      15 August 2017 16: 59
      GOOD DAY TO ALL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      Hello, dear Elena!
      You have fun here, joking, kidding me, and I'm studying the code! I read the text, look at the pictures. I look at the weapons of the Gods, how they hide behind their skin. I also look at their rituals. I wish everyone to read this Code, carefully study the drawings in order to better understand the life of the Indians!
      Sincerely.
      1. +4
        15 August 2017 17: 20
        Dmitry, we were waiting for you! After your sweet correspondence with the Doctor the last time, when you two decided how best to cut a heart out of a living person, I realized that the priests would have turned out even to you! good drinks By the way, where is our Good Doctor? drinks
        1. +4
          15 August 2017 17: 48
          Well, in addition to what the priests do, I wrote there later about the high moral and ethical standards of life of the Indians. The death penalty for the murder of an unborn baby, both for assistants and for a woman (in this case, by stoning, after hanging by the hair, as hanged by libertines). The Aztecs ---- the followers of same-sex love were burned alive. If there were witnesses to female adultery ---- then the husband was obliged to either kill his wife and friend, or forgive the public for both. It turns out that the witnesses themselves could signal promiscuity and were trusted.
          Repentance was required. Cohabitation is also mandatory only after the marriage ritual, with the exception of widows and widowers.
          Only warriors who fell in battle, as well as those who were sacrificed to this God, and of women --- those who died in childbirth (and newborns, if they died with their mothers, too), were allowed into the uppermost paradise (to God Witsilopochtli)! These were the Indians of Mexico and Yucatan !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
          But I don’t know about the Doctor. Duty, probably.
          And now I live in the country, and I go to work in St. Petersburg.
          PS. What a wonderful Code !!! This is their whole LIFE.
          1. +3
            15 August 2017 18: 11
            The Aztecs ---- followers of same-sex love were burned alive.

            it seems that in Europe then they did the same with homosexuals. am
            Interestingly told! good grateful! hi I once read a little about Taino - the people of Hispaniola. It was less severe, it seems. True, they were the first to be rooted to the root.
            1. +1
              15 August 2017 18: 25
              We must now refresh about Haiti. And then only 2 books ----- Vinogradov and Graham Green immediately come to mind. But I forgot their names. More films about Voodoo rituals. "" Dried Heads "" (for children) and "" Heart of an Angel "" (tin)
              1. +4
                15 August 2017 18: 38
                Voodoo is already an African belief. Then not Haiti (it is associated with voodoo), but completely about Hispaniola. In the Dominican Republic, there was a TV in the room, so there was a couple of our channels - one of them for vacationers. They showed all sorts of entertainment programs, such as TV shows with TNT, but the advertisement was precisely local "chips". Including advertised and voodoo ritual. But I was more pleasant to look at nature.
                And from the Taino people were rock records in caves. It was interesting to see. Also, their "gods" are put up for sale in souvenir shops, incl. huge size - such a "god" and the aircraft can not be carried. Yes, and I did not buy for memory - the Indians, these "gods" one hell did not help. request
                1. +2
                  15 August 2017 18: 59
                  Why didn’t the gods help? This is the tale of one of the Antilles (?????) The bottom line is that the Gods were angry due to the violation of the Indians agreement between them and the Gods. They ate hummingbirds belonging to the gods. And he taught them this psychic, listening to dark forces. As a result, hummingbirds ceased to be tame, a freshwater lake, a gift from the Gods, turned into asphalt, which is still there .... Well, the whites came .... Something like this .... They take responsibility for their burdens.
                  1. +3
                    15 August 2017 19: 08
                    They ate hummingbirds

                    not all, then ate hummingbirds. Personally, I saw the one and only. Yes, tiny, I saw literally a matter of seconds, but I remember it.
              2. +2
                15 August 2017 18: 50
                Dmitry - specially for you I’ll make material about the heads. True, do not exact ... About what is, I will write about that. The whole topic of "dried heads" to take it is necessary to write a book ...
                1. 0
                  18 August 2017 11: 09
                  "Ring behind the barbed wire" George Sviridov
                  Karl Koch, commandant of the concentration camp Buchenwald Standartenfuhrer, sat at the massive black oak desk covered in green cloth. Behind him in a gilded frame hung a huge portrait of Hitler. On the table, next to the bronze writing set, on a round metal stand was a small, fist-sized human head. She was reduced by special treatment. Gauvin even knew who she belonged to. His name was Schneigel. He was killed last year for complaining to the camp commandant twice. Koch said to him in exasperation: “What the hell are you looking at my eyes?” Do you like to hang around in front of me? I can help you with this! ” And a month later, the dried head of the prisoner began to decorate the office of the colonel of the SS division “Dead Head”.
          2. +3
            15 August 2017 18: 32
            And now, Dmitry, the question ... Why was only this one transferred and so late. Where were our scientists and historical science before, when "everything was for the good of man"? Why just now? The translation was made in 2010, by the way.
            1. +1
              15 August 2017 19: 17
              So the book, Vyacheslav was published in Kiev, as well as a number of other books on the Indian theme. In Russian !! In general, there are good books at home in Russian after the collapse of the USSR, also published in Belarus and the Baltic states. Profit, trade? Why not before? Probably some kind of high fee for using their art objects? Indeed, in Soviet books there are only photos from our museums. I recently got a book, "Riddles of Ancient America. The forbidden collections of Ecuador, Peru, Mexico, USA "". The author of Zhukov. Codecs there, in my opinion, are not, but impressive.
              1. +1
                15 August 2017 19: 37
                I do not know either. But the topic interested me. I will try to get from here a photocopy of some code as a whole. For example, “The History of Tlashkala” - I really like it, well, something very interesting and rare, but that there was a Spanish text. Why not give it a try. And ... something was thought, but not whether to fly to Mexico next year, to see it all yourself, climb the pyramids. It will be necessary to think over this question.
      2. +3
        15 August 2017 18: 28
        Whoa! Words are not a boy, but a husband! I, too, when I got to this code for two days, studied it, it is so interesting. And I was surprised by the attitude of the Spaniards. Yes, pagans, yes their gods are demons. But we will write them all down, study them and we will speak with the Indians in their language! We will understand them! No wonder, apparently, they seized so much land, and then held for so many years. And then their experience was taken over by the British. The people of Tlashkalans were promised a tax-free existence for the union, and they kept their word! That is, they burned and crushed someone, and someone ... everything they wanted to give! Cortes issued an order: "No one should offend an ally, take away his prey!" And severely punished those who offended the Tlashkalans.
        1. +4
          15 August 2017 18: 52
          And severely punished those who offended the Tlashkalans.

          they were the main allies, if not mistaken. Even the "bulk of the troops" - so they were lifted up by the Aztec sacrifices.
          But we will write them all down, study them and we will speak with the Indians in their language!

          with the founding of the Jesuit Order, monks with an insinuating voice were sent to where troops could not be sent.
          Vyacheslav Olegovich, it seems to me, on Hispaniola, whose millionth population was plagued by root for half a century, the Spaniards did not ask questions about the Indian gods. True, there the Indians were, as I understand it, "teddy bears - pacifists," compared to the Aztecs. And the role of the island, as a confined space, played a role. And with the Aztecs - yes, it was necessary to behave differently.
          When searching for Eldorado, the Germans behaved even more extravagantly - but genetically, they probably behave this way with the “untimers”. Ambrosius Ehinger, "cruel of cruel", I remember, brought the Chibchi to mass suicides.
          1. +3
            15 August 2017 19: 32
            The island is not the mainland, the Indians there were not suitable for the Aztecs as a sole. In the code of Tellerian-Remensis referred to here at the end, the Spaniard writes how Indians treat old people correctly, and how badly, we Spaniards are Christians! What you need to take it from them !!! So a differentiated approach has taken place. My fellow graduate student worked ... as an "adviser" in Yemen under the USSR. And he told how they treated our engineers and British engineers. Ours were "on the board." But they did not speak Arabic. And they often did not obey. The Englishman spoke Arabic, always shaved, walked in a white suit and did not pull out a stuck truck with workers. He commanded without raising his voice, and obeyed him implicitly!
            1. +1
              15 August 2017 21: 24
              Englishman - OWNER! Russian - FRIEND! A friend can and DO NOT LISTEN!
              But in the city of Volzhsky in the 90s, Italian engineers at the beginning of the construction of the facility did not listen to the advice of Russian (Soviet) engineers and workers - WHITE BONE AND BLUE BLOOD ... But, as the deadlines for putting the OBJECT in hand came close - what drilling holes - Vladimir ignite the burner - BURN THE HOLE ... That's ALL THEIR PONTS ...
              1. 0
                15 August 2017 22: 29
                In retaliation, we should advise Russian engineers building objects in Italy not to listen to local advice)
                1. +1
                  15 August 2017 22: 56
                  Laughter and grimaces - IT'S GOOD! BUT in moderation!
                  They knew about penalties for failure to meet the deadlines for commissioning
                  For this reason, they did not give a damn about their own construction rules! AT THIS ITALIANS WAS ONLY ENGINEERS -
                  ASIANS - PAKISTANS, VIETNAMS, ETC. WAS WORKERS
                  Plus RUSSIAN SUB-CONTRACTORS from different cities!
                  1. +1
                    15 August 2017 23: 13
                    But seriously - if Russian (Soviet) engineers were cooler than Italian, then why were Italians invited to Russia at all?
                    1. +1
                      15 August 2017 23: 46
                      Why did they turn to FIAT about AvtoVAZ? It was necessary to...
                      But at first the Europeans bend their fingers, and when it smells fried and threatens to hit them in the pocket, THEIR IMMEDIATELY BECOME CONSCIOUS AND FRIENDLY!
                      1. 0
                        16 August 2017 00: 02
                        And why was it necessary? If the Soviets are cooler than the Italian, then why not entrust everything to the Soviets, huh? Here the Italians of the Soviet / Russian do not call plants to themselves
            2. +2
              16 August 2017 01: 29
              The island is not the mainland, the Indians there were not suitable for the Aztecs as a sole.

              I talked about this. They didn’t really know how to fight, and you’ll run the hell out of this island, and they all perfectly understood this.
              He commanded without raising his voice, and obeyed him implicitly!

              what to say .. we are Russians. We are, soul wide open. From the point of view of psychology, the Englishman behaved implicitly - especially from the point of view of local Aborigines. Emotions prevail in us, in them (the Englishman) - calculation, although for all these Egyptians they are us ...
              Yes, excuse me, in addition, we found someone to help. Soyuznichki, damn it, which so far "can’t get off the palm," and who will always have problems because of their mentality .. negative What, am I wrong? right! my personal thoughts.
      3. +2
        15 August 2017 21: 29
        This is of course GREAT - but there was news today in the world news! Found in Britain a CAVE with BONES - VERY MUCH for them ... Very much, and the victims died of natural causes! BUT WERE EATED !!! Moreover, from the remains of animal bones, they realized that there was no hunger - RITUAL EATING! IN BRITAIN ... EUROPEAN STILL HAVE TO UNDERSTAND AND UNDERSTAND ...
        good
        1. +1
          15 August 2017 23: 18
          A few thousand years ago, there were still no modern British or Russian there. There were Indo-European tribes - our common ancestors. And they themselves practiced ritual cannibalism. Memories of him remained in Russian folklore, for example, where the baba-yaga (shaman) has people
        2. 0
          16 August 2017 14: 33
          Well, they’ve been doing it FOR LONG TIME!
          1. 0
            16 August 2017 16: 01
            VERY LONG TIME - BUT "RITUAL EATING" OF RUSSIA AND IN THE 21ST CENTURY good
    2. +4
      15 August 2017 18: 20
      Cool figures. The author is a master!
      1. +2
        15 August 2017 18: 37
        The price is about ... 000 rubles! laughing I got to the site where they were selling but I didn’t remember the price recourse
        1. +3
          15 August 2017 18: 55
          Of course expensive, especially painted. My Tankmaster produced a set of Russian horsemen of the 12th century in a scale of 1:72, painted 5 figures in a set. So it cost $ 50 in 1998, and in bulk when ordering 10 boxes a minimum of 25. Manual painting. Black horses, in apples, salty, bay, warriors with red shields, very beautiful .... But here the scale is clearly 54 mm, i.e. initially more expensive ...
          1. +2
            16 August 2017 05: 06
            Not very expensive for the beginning of the 98th, and very expensive for the end.
            1. 0
              16 August 2017 12: 12
              yeah, to the point. Queues at exchangers ...
              1. +1
                16 August 2017 20: 30
                Wrong word, Nikolai! At the beginning of the 99th I found out what "blockade soldering" is, the circumstances were like this.
                1. +2
                  16 August 2017 20: 51
                  oh, damn it, sympathize .. but the experience is such that for life later. And you’ll break a horseradish. soldier the main thing is that everything is good now! drinks
                  1. +1
                    17 August 2017 19: 09
                    Oh well him! Such an experience!
  12. +3
    15 August 2017 19: 53
    Quote: kalibr
    ... something was thought, but not whether to fly to Mexico next year, to see it all myself, climb the pyramids. It will be necessary to think over this question.
    You can combine the trip with any Mayan holiday !!!!!! Good luck with this. I have a working time. Goodbye.
    1. +3
      15 August 2017 20: 55
      Here it will be necessary not to combine, but to choose "out of season", so that it would be as cheap as possible!
      1. +1
        15 August 2017 22: 33
        July-August is the most it. In Mexico it is still too hot these months for the North American neighbors, because they do not go these months. Local prices, respectively, are slightly lower.
        However, these seasonal fluctuations in tourist flow do not greatly affect the price of air travel. And the cost of an air ticket for flying across the ocean will make up the bulk of your expenses
      2. +1
        16 August 2017 07: 33
        Quote: kalibr
        Here it will be necessary not to combine, but to choose "out of season", so that it would be as cheap as possible!
        Anyway, I think it’s better to combine it with the holiday, because people from all over the world come by interest. And there may be the necessary acquaintances and profitable. Tom has a personal observation.
        1. +2
          16 August 2017 12: 19
          expensive .. very expensive .. (at least the Dominican Republic. Mexico is not in the know). Yes, and fly 12 hours, or even more. You will be without smoke laughing
  13. +1
    16 August 2017 00: 09
    Arakius,
    They UKRAINIAN CALL FOR YOURSELF ... And the Italians are furious about this!
    However, the ITALIANS ARE NOT BUILDING A NUCLEAR STATION IN IRAN! They called to build factories for the production of what they themselves did not produce! And if FIAT would rest on price, then in the USSR there would be a Renault plant, and it would produce a FRONT-DRIVE MODEL ... Renault 16!
    1. +2
      16 August 2017 01: 18
      And if FIAT would rest on price, then in the USSR there would be a Renault plant

      Alexei, you are not far from the truth. Now AvtoVAZ is under the fifth Renault. He had Logan himself, now Megan, his girlfriend had Duster. What to say? Satisfied! good
      Somehow we are not lucky with the auto industry. what Almost all factories producing cars, except for Russo-Balt, were created with the participation of foreigners .. Truth!
      1. +1
        16 August 2017 05: 21
        I didn’t have enough money for something not bad, even for Largus, and I basically needed a “one-volume car”, so I bought Kalina. And you know - I am satisfied! And the model, from beginning to end, is Russian.
        1. +1
          16 August 2017 09: 32
          I believe! drinks as I understand it, the French have improved the quality.
          1. +1
            16 August 2017 20: 48
            No-no-no, the Logan 2 is equipped with ZMZ engines, and the Largus is less than 102 hp. it makes no sense to buy (French engine). I'm not talking about the Thracian boxes. So, "everything is ours and the face is in the blood."
            1. 0
              17 August 2017 12: 44
              and the Largus is less than 102 hp. it makes no sense to buy (French engine).

              My "Logan" was in the poorest configuration. Yes, he’s a stylish engine just right, probably - it’s not so scary to overtake drinks
              "Logan 2" is equipped with engines "ZMZ"

              French engine, probably? what
              1. +1
                17 August 2017 18: 46
                Yes, on the first "Logan" engines were frank. But, on the second put ZMZ.
    2. +1
      16 August 2017 05: 31
      And who told you that Italians know how to build nuclear power plants ?! At the moment, Italy has not had nuclear power for a quarter of a century.
      1. +2
        16 August 2017 16: 04
        Nuclear power plants cannot, but they built INDEZIT (ARISTON) - we did not know how to make washing machines and refrigerators in the USSR! My mother-in-law still has an INDEZIT refrigerator of the late 90's, with a MATSUSHITA compressor!
        In Italy, Indesit absorbed the company ARDO and it disappeared - the competitor simply ate ...
        1. 0
          17 August 2017 18: 54
          Here's what to answer you, I do not know, you are trying to compare the Russian (Soviet sredmash) with the Italian light industry. These categories are incommensurable, even in dynamics, over the past 50 years.
          1. 0
            17 August 2017 22: 04
            I'm not trying to compare anything! hi
            1. 0
              17 August 2017 22: 17
              Then why the previous post?
              1. 0
                17 August 2017 22: 22
                I argued a bit with Arakius - you got involved in the argument a bit! Ordinary disputes - they could, could not, wanted or not ... hi
                1. 0
                  17 August 2017 23: 21
                  Sorry, I got into the topic. Himself a child of a nuclear reactor and, in the axes, I understand. The Italians, in my understanding, are associated with nuclear energy in the same way as with the development of Antarctica.
  14. +3
    17 August 2017 11: 31
    Mikado,
    And so you tried with armor? belay
    1. +3
      17 August 2017 12: 47
      yes, yes, yes, I would add - to lie on all possible surfaces, and leave a mountain of wool there.
      I come from vacation on Monday - the closet is open, a sweater is thrown out of it (the fly didn’t sit, the cleanest one, the output sweater - go to the theater!), It is all covered with a thick layer of wool - I have a very fluffy cat, even scratching it every day. There was a lay, more than one day! For .. the fluffy orange ..
      1. +3
        17 August 2017 12: 59
        "The bed was, and not one day! For .. fluffy ..ranzka .."

        He is excusable Yes He really missed, and there the smell of his own winked
        1. +3
          17 August 2017 13: 05
          missed you. He really misses you. As I call it - "social cat". love
          1. +2
            17 August 2017 18: 17
            Cats, in general, are very vulnerable creatures, it is difficult with them, unlike dogs. Everything is simple there, or you are a dog, or you are prey. He managed to prove that you are the Great Dog God; you are right always and in everything. True, there are some infections, in the sense of breed, in the sense of mine, ..... well, nothing, grow up, grow wiser.
            1. 0
              17 August 2017 19: 24
              and you have to negotiate with the cat .... laughing this is not a dog, he comes only when he wants to. I had never been a catman before I met him. And what kind of breed? don't want to - don't answer drinks
              1. +2
                17 August 2017 20: 45
                Why hide, Labrador, a very "social" breed, (our answer to Chamberlain) laughing . He eats what he finds, crap where he wants, loves all who get it. Hippie, damn it! Sometimes I think the glory of labs as the best search engines for drugs and explosives is due to the fact that they want to eat it! For that it is very loyal and patriotic!

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