“Hotel” from “Mad Dog”: the threat from “Javelins” in the Donbas TVD is underestimated. How to answer?

136


The last two meetings of the Trilateral Contact Group in Minsk, as well as the July telephone conference of the leaders of the Norman Four countries, confirmed the complete incapacity of all existing instruments of a political settlement of the situation in the Donbas theater of military operations. Thus, Kiev once again not only completely distanced itself from any dialogues with representatives of the republics of Novorossia regarding the ceasefire regime, but also secured good support from the US in planning the forthcoming attempt to conduct an offensive operation on several operational sectors at once. In previous works, we several times disclosed in detail the goals of bringing the strategic unmanned reconnaissance RQ-4A "Global Hawk" closer to Mariupol, all Azov territories of the Donetsk People's Republic and the northern part of the Kuban ... This is an informational part of the support of the Armed Forces of Ukraine from the White House. At the same time, based on recent events, it can be said about the imminent entry into force of a new stage of material and technical support, which will eventually lead to large-scale escalation. A positive factor in this support can be considered the “turning on the green light” for the Ministry of Defense of the DPR to carry out a counter-offensive operation with the subsequent release of the major cities of the DPR occupied by the Ukrainian militants.



We are talking about the transfer to Kiev of short-range anti-tank missile systems FGM-148 "Javelin", which the US Department of Defense proposes in its recommendation to the White House the previous week. The initiator of the provocative idea was originally the special envoy of the US administration in Ukraine, Kurt Volker, who declared the “real war” in the Donbas and the possible transfer of anti-tank weapons to the Ukrainian Armed Forces (this news, in connection with the incorrect translation, was presented in the form of a possible transfer of the “independent” main combat tanks) Naturally, the "Javelins" are not "mothballed" MBT M1A1 "Abrams", but their appearance on the line of contact may indicate significant changes in the existing tactical environment. Even the brilliant tactical victories of the People’s Militia Corps of the DPR Ministry of Defense near Krasnogorovka (2-3 km pushing back the field fortified areas of the Armed Forces) and in the Mariupol direction (moving 1 km towards Vodyany) can be quickly “canceled” against the background of the delivery of 200-250 Javelin anti-tank systems "Ukrainian junta in the amount of 50 million dollars.

In your article “Commander” “You won't scare you with“ Dart ”” author Alexander Tsiganov argues that as an asymmetric response to the provision of a couple of hundreds of “Javelins” to the Ukrainian Armed Forces, you can transfer to the armies of Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics a certain number of wearable automated control systems anti-tank units "Commander-E". The proposal is very tempting, but let's plunge into the technical parameters of this complex. Alexander very clearly described the tactical aspects of the operation of the complex: the anti-tank battery advances to certain defensive lines and begins radio engineering, optical-electronic and visual reconnaissance of infantry / tank-hazard direction using portable radar, thermal sight with laser range finder attached to the Commander-E (LCD) and binoculars. Detected by the radar infantry, armored vehicles and artillery of the Armed Forces of Ukraine will instantly be displayed on the tactical map of the computerized control terminal of the complex. In favorable meteorological conditions, the range to the objects detected by the radar can be determined with an accuracy of ± 5-10 m using a laser range finder target indicator, unfavorable (fog , dust, smoke, snow and rain) - with an accuracy of 50-80 m using radar. According to the author, the coordinates will be instantly transferred to cannon artillery (“big uncles”), which will be able to destroy very large enemy forces even before they reached the lines of the Konkurs-M, Metis-M1 and Cornet-E ATGMs, which, in fact, controls the "Commander-E."

As a result, the exhausted remnants of the enemy's motorized rifle and infantry subunits, having come close to the positions of the Armed Forces of the LDNR on 2-3 km, should be suppressed using the above ATGM, snipers and machine-gunners. It looks very believable, but not so simple! The fact is that the all-weather core of the automated Commander’s ATGM battery control complex is a portable portable radar SBR-5М Fara-BP (1Л111М) operating in the J-band of centimeter waves (frequency around 15 GHz) at 27 watts. Fara-BP is capable of detecting a human target at a distance of 3-4 km, “tank” - 6 km, “SAU” - 7 km, “PU OTRK / ZRSK” - 8-9 km. Like any other radar station, the SBR-5М is a powerful emitter during operation, and it will not be difficult to detect that by means of passive radio-electronic reconnaissance (as we know, there are passive RTR Kolchuga stations at the disposal of the Armed Forces and are preparing for the release of Kolchuga-2 "). Will be able to detect the "Faro" and more simple mobile means of DER, available from the formations of the APU.

What can happen after this is approximately clear: the coordinates of the detected Commander-E positions will be given to the battery of the nearest ACS, after which a very powerful massive artillery strike will follow. In other words, after activating the active mode of the Fara-BP radar, the Commander’s operators will have to “make legs” from a position. More or less safe operation of the calculation will be achieved only while working with a laser range finder-target designator in excellent weather conditions, when the measurement range can reach 30 km (at such a distance, not every SAU that is in service with the Armed Forces of Ukraine will reach the distance). However, this distance at the DDC can only be achieved by deploying the Commander-E automated complex at a dominant height relative to the enemy, providing a larger optical horizon. Despite the fact that Komandirsha-E is not able to completely hide its location from enemy DER vehicles, in a fleeting anti-tank battle with the help of this complex, a decent amount of enemy armored tehniks can be struck. But to call "Commander-E" asymmetric response "Javelin" can not be.

In particular, despite the less effective work in difficult meteorological conditions due to the infrared homing head, in good meteorological conditions, the FGM-148 ATGM demonstrate very good fighting qualities, which the Metis and Competition-M attached to the Commander does not have and Kornet-E. We are talking about shooting in the “shot-forgotten” mode, as well as the possibility of a quick position change due to the absence of a semi-automatic laser homing system. Moreover, a rocket with a 45-degree diving angle at a target is capable of destroying any type of tank into the weakened sections of upper-armor armor plates if the tanks are not equipped with active protection complexes (KAZ) and Relic-type tandem dynamic protection systems. Alas, the “Commander-E” from this anti-tank weapon, especially during the upcoming city battles for Volnovakha or Mariupol, is unlikely to be able to save the motorized rifle units of the People’s Militia of the DPR. It requires a qualitatively different, integrated approach.

Yes, the Commander-E complex is also needed by the republics for creating powerful anti-tank defense lines, as well as for creating assault bones, which are cleaning the occupied cities from the APU armored units. But first of all, it is necessary to think about creating individual protection for at least 1 / 3 of the tank fleet of the Armed Forces of the LDNR from the Javelin ATGM. It can be based on the KAZ Arena, whose protective ammunition intercepts FGM-148 at a distance of several meters from the tank. ATGM FGM-148 is quite possible to confuse infrared traps, because IKGSN operating in the wavelength range 8-12 microns, has a very low resolution of the matrix photodetector 64x64 element, which is much worse than GOS URVV type AIM-9X (128x128 elements ). Moreover, it is possible to reduce the efficiency of a given GOS by reducing the infrared signature of a hidden unit with a working power plant. Reducing IR-visibility can be implemented in two ways - equipping a unit with a specialized Cape masculine complex (3 -fold reduction of infrared visibility and 7 -fold ESR reduction), as well as installing a camouflage complex of handicraft production, which was described in the newspaper article "Soviet physicist". Using sheets represented by 30 layers of food foil, a similar number of layers of cellophane between the foil, and a thick-sized carriage between the sheets and the masked object, it was possible to create a screen packet that reduces the infrared signature of the masked object more than 10 times. The method is very simple and inexpensive.


Adjustable 122-mm Kitol-2M projectile


As you can see, it is quite possible to “put on blades” the operator “Javelina”. But this will be required only at the moment of close clashes with the Ukrainian militants in the vicinity of the liberated cities and in the immediate vicinity of their field fortifications. The main role before conducting offensive and counter-offensive operations by the armed forces of Novorossia on the Donbass theater will be played by the classic artillery preparation, the accuracy of which will determine the success of further actions. And accuracy can only be ensured by one thing - adjustable artillery shells and mines, the list of which includes: 152-mm shot of ZOF 75 "Centimeter-M" for ACS "Acacia", "Hyacinth-S", "Msta-S" (including towed variants "B") with a range of 18 km, 122-mm corrected projectile Kitolov-2M (for D-30 howitzers and SAU "Gvozdika") and a range of 12 km, and also 120-mm corrected mine KM-8 "Edge »With a range of 9 km (for mortars 2B11).

These precision-guided munitions can be considered the most appropriate response to the sale of the Javelin complexes to the Kiev Nazi regime, since in the very first hours of using unique Tula shells all the main artillery units of the Ukrainian Armed Forces will be eliminated from the theaters of the republics “new horizons”.

Information sources:
http://fakty.ictv.ua/ru/ukraine/20170804-pentagon-prosyt-trampa-nadaty-ukrayini-javelin-na-50-mln-nbc/
https://tsargrad.tv/articles/komandirshu-drotikom-ne-ispugaesh_77981
http://www.russianarms.ru/forum/index.php?topic=4570.0
http://army-news.ru/2015/08/spasut-li-xuntu-1240-dzhavelinov/
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136 comments
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  1. +5
    9 August 2017 06: 17
    Still, I doubt the transfer of the Javelins to Ukraine .. And if there are supplies, some sort of sabotage may occur and the load of these ATGMs will be inoperative ..
    1. +11
      9 August 2017 07: 28
      Quote: Razvedka_Boem
      if supplies do, it could very well happen

      An effective response is always found to any action.
      200 ATGMs, at least Javelins, at least which cannot turn the tide of the armed struggle.
      Although they will require the use of measures like KAZ, Curtains, etc.
      And most importantly, the author stated at the end: the best defense against anti-tank systems is a howitzer, and other fire weapons, especially with high-precision ammunition.
      1. +21
        9 August 2017 07: 47
        Quote: Alekseev
        the best defense against anti-tank systems is a howitzer, and other fire weapons, especially with high-precision ammunition.

        The best defense against anti-tank systems is intelligence. Timely transmitting coordinates of detected targets to weapons
        1. +2
          10 August 2017 08: 49
          Quote: Spade
          The best defense against anti-tank systems is intelligence. Timely transmitting coordinates of detected targets to weapons

          But how can reconnaissance “coordinate coordinates in a timely manner ...” if the Armed Forces of Ukraine begin to use “javelins” (whose mobility is superior to that of “TOW”, “Bassoons”, “Competitions”, even “Cornets”) as nomadic ATGMs? Reconnaissance can only "constitute" the presence of "javelins" in specific units in these areas!
          1. +2
            10 August 2017 09: 06
            Quote: Nikolaevich I
            But how will intelligence be able to "timely transmit coordinates ..." if the Armed Forces of Ukraine begin to use "javelins" (whose mobility exceeds the mobility of "TOW", "Fagot", "Competitions", even "Cornets") as "wandering" ATGM?

            By means of communication 8)))
            They noticed the calculation, passed the coordinates to the "big brother".
            Reconnaissance tools capable of detecting ATGMs of this type even before their use are quite numerous. From UAVs to optics detection tools. Anti-sniper systems can detect Javelina launchers with greater efficiency than optics for sniper rifles.

            Quote: Nikolaevich I
            Reconnaissance can only "constitute" the presence of "javelins" in specific units in these areas!

            ?
            The main task of military intelligence and the main source of information is observation. And not undercover “dvizhuhi” or heroic campaigns behind enemy lines for “languages”
            1. +2
              10 August 2017 10: 29
              Quote: Spade
              Reconnaissance tools capable of detecting ATGMs of this type even before their use are quite numerous. From UAVs to optics detection tools. Anti-sniper systems can detect Javelina launchers with greater efficiency than optics for sniper rifles.

              So "javelins" are not current mobile, but also quite small! That will allow to successfully carry out covert (both from drones and from observers) moving systems! You can arrange "javelin" ambushes when the ATGMs move from position to position (with frequent changes of these), in some kind of "chumodans" like: a shell box and figs know which packages are "for anything", suitable in size! And in vain do not "shine" optics! The complex is "unpacked" and put into a combat position when information is received about the tank attack that has begun. Moreover, the "javelins" are located in the 2 (main) line of defense, and the 1 line of defense is "ostentatious" (demonstration, distracting
              and I...)
              1. 0
                10 August 2017 11: 34
                Quote: Nikolaevich I
                That will allow to successfully carry out covert (both from drones and from observers) moving systems!

                Secretly it is very difficult to do. Moving a fairly large group of servicemen to a distance of 2.5 km to the enemy is a non-trivial task. And small groups are practically guaranteed to fall into the hands of the militia.

                Quote: Nikolaevich I
                The complex is "unpacked" and put into a combat position when receiving information about the tank attack that has begun.

                Tanks travel at a speed of 30 km / h. From 2.5 to 3.5 - time for "overclocking" the equipment and cooling the GOS. During this time, the tank will travel 2.5 km.
                1. +2
                  10 August 2017 11: 45
                  Quote: Spade
                  Tanks travel at a speed of 30 km / h. From 2.5 to 3.5 - time for "overclocking" the equipment and cooling the GOS. During this time, the tank will travel 2.5 km.

                  in 2.5 - 3.5 minutes, the tank will pass accordingly ---- 1250-1750m.
                  And this is in the event that he is already riding, and does not budge.
                  Yes, by the way, Javelin’s preparation time for the shot is 30 (thirty) seconds.
                2. +1
                  10 August 2017 13: 50
                  Quote: Spade
                  Secretly it is very difficult to do. Moving a fairly large group of servicemen to a distance of 2.5 km to the enemy is a non-trivial task. And small groups are practically guaranteed to fall into the hands of the militia.

                  And why on earth do you suppose mandatory support for the calculation of ATGMs by an entire infantry battalion? In this case, a very strong small-scale microscope will not come in handy! And so it will be possible to "guess"! "Wandering" ,, Javelin ,, can move not only in the depths of defense, but also along the front ... moreover, the complexes can be located behind the front line ... (this is about the "hands of the militias")
                  Quote: Spade
                  Tanks travel at a speed of 30 km / h. From 2.5 to 3.5 - time for "overclocking" the equipment and cooling the GOS. During this time, the tank will travel 2.5 km.

                  30 km guaranteed by you? Well, you and an optimist without training! And who assured you that the "Javelin" will be put into combat position only when the tank approaches the front line at 2,5 km? Tank ba-alshoy and it is just more difficult to hide it compared to the "Javelin", and finding the same drone is much easier! And also ... "Javelin" in a stowed position only moves from position to position ... but in a position it can covertly from observation be brought into combat in any dugout, "fox hole", in a "hammer" hidden in a trench ...
      2. +2
        10 August 2017 08: 38
        Quote: Alekseev
        An effective response is always found to any action.

        Perhaps .... if there are "material prerequisites" for this! And if they are not ?? request
      3. 0
        11 August 2017 14: 08
        I can’t understand one thing: what is stopping Russia from declaring Poroshenko’s regime terrorist, and qualifying such games with Javelins as “assistance to terrorist regimes”? request There are plenty of facts, evidence and witnesses.

        I think it’s time in the information field to start calling a spade a spade: Ukraine is not a victim of aggression but an aggressor, “atoshniks” are not special operations forces, but terrorists ...
    2. +5
      9 August 2017 07: 50
      Maybe I don’t understand. But is the danger from the javelins exaggerated? On the one hand, a more modern ATGM is more dangerous for BTTs than those available to the APU. Perhaps the very fact of refusing negotiations is an escalation of the conflict. Well, the supply of weapons (if any). I agree with the author that the appearance of the Javelins will remove the ban on the supply of weapons to LDNR. But will this not lead only to a new round of war, which is possible and those who stand behind Klevo achieve it? The burden of conflict, not its outcome, is obvious. It may not be enough to supply arms alone to enforce peace. Some other measures are needed here. But which ones? I don't know what
      here you can take. until the regime in Kiev has changed, a new breeding of the parties to the conflict can only escape. Provided that peacekeepers will not sit idly by as in Yugoslavia. Maybe I'm wrong, but I see no other way.
      1. +8
        9 August 2017 09: 21
        Well, anti-tank systems there and so on were fully applied and are being applied. Here, as for me, it is necessary to read between the lines - that if they put the anti-tank systems there will also be hidden extra-budgetary deliveries of weapons. That is, it is financed not from the US budget, but from the budgets of departments interested in continuing the war.
        One thing I can say for sure is that if the mattress is put up with a weapon, the attack will be in any case - that is, for LDNR it is necessary to prepare for reflection, and the Russian Federation should not sleep and help in case of aggression that would not be like in South Ossetia with Tskhinval.
        1. The comment was deleted.
      2. +1
        9 August 2017 09: 41
        Quote: kashtak
        until the regime in Kiev has changed, a new breeding of the parties to the conflict can only escape.

        There will be no breeding
        Quote: kashtak
        But will this not lead only to a new round of war, which is possible and those who stand behind Klevo achieve it?

        What, can it lead to something else?
        Quote: kashtak
        the appearance of the javelins will lift the ban on the supply of weapons to LDN

        And who introduced such a ban when you consider that Russia has not yet recognized LDNR officially?
        Now, if he admits, there will already be a different alignment.
        1. +2
          9 August 2017 11: 04
          Quote: DenZ
          There will be no breeding

          I understand that it will not. because NATO will immediately declare our peacekeepers aggression (already tired of waiting) and the NATO pythons are more likely to support the National Bats (or whatever they are now) than they will create the world. third countries will not fit in as if it was the concern of Russia alone. but I see no other way. maybe I’m looking bad.
      3. The comment was deleted.
    3. +1
      9 August 2017 15: 22
      Quote: Razvedka_Boem
      Still, I doubt the transfer of the Javelins to Ukraine ..


      Somewhere I came across about Javelin back in 2014:
      "... In the Izyum district of the Kharkov People’s Republic, temporarily occupied by the Kiev junta, a supply convoy was destroyed that was transporting ammunition for the 1st separate tank brigade deployed in the city of Izum from the Chernihiv region. Four ammunition trucks flew into the air. Fifth but the truck was not filled with tank shells, but with American FGM-148 ATGMs Javelin ... "
      http://wh24.ru/xarkovskie-partizany-unichtozhili-
      vrazheskuyu-avtokolonnu-i-zaxvatili-mashinu-ameri
      kanskix-ptur-jhavelinjavelin /
      1. +1
        10 August 2017 08: 52
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        Somewhere I came across about Javelin back in 2014:

        Well, and the fig mention this old "fake"?
    4. 0
      9 August 2017 16: 53
      Quote: Razvedka_Boem
      Still, I doubt the transfer of the Javelins to Ukraine ..

      And in vain. Exceptional completely off the coils. They may not deliver only if there is confidence that it will immediately fall into the hands of the “enemy”.
    5. +2
      9 August 2017 18: 02
      WELL TO KURDS SAME JAWELINS ARE DELIVERED, only they don’t help much. Well put dill. Scary ALREADY CREEP. And the RF Armed Forces are just re-equipping missile units from points on the Iskanders. Well, the BCH will find a couple of dozen points in some abandoned mine. There are successful coincidences. belay I would not advise dill to play this game. Like a wolf do not feed and the elephant is still thicker. request
      1. +2
        10 August 2017 08: 56
        Quote: g1v2
        WELL TO KURDS SAME JAWELINS ARE DELIVERED,

        And here a link to the source of such information is required! It is not difficult to believe in deliveries of "TOW", but "javelins" ..... request
        1. 0
          10 August 2017 12: 21
          There were several videos of Kurds with javelins. At different times. If you wish, you will find yourself. request
    6. +3
      10 August 2017 08: 31
      Quote: Razvedka_Boem
      And if there are deliveries, some sort of sabotage may well occur and the cargo of these ATGMs will be inoperative ..

      Oh, these storytellers! Oh, these dreamers! No.
  2. +3
    9 August 2017 06: 54
    But if the "shot" javelins in Syria or Iraq will suddenly come up. With ukrovinstvo it is possible. And who will they fly to ...
    1. +3
      9 August 2017 10: 50
      Quote: alex-cn
      But if the "shot" javelins in Syria or Iraq will suddenly come up. With ukrovinstvo it is possible.

      Nothing can be ruled out. There are enough examples of the fact that Urkaina sells weapons on the right and on the left, not bothering much about the ethical side of the deal. It is entirely conceivable that some of these "crackers" will not only be in Syria and Iraq, but may suddenly show up in the hands of the militia of the LDNR.
      1. +1
        9 August 2017 11: 44
        Quote: Nyrobsky
        There are enough examples of the fact that Urkaina is selling weapons on the right and on the left, not bothering much about the ethical side of the deal.

        Please provide some examples.
        1. +1
          9 August 2017 12: 39
          Quote: Normal ok
          Please provide some examples.

          Can’t I googling myself? Well, for example ....
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezp1XXbEQlY
          1. +2
            9 August 2017 12: 57
            Quote: Nyrobsky
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezp1XXbEQlY

            reminds Chinese complexes.
            1. +1
              9 August 2017 13: 14
              Quote: Catherine II
              Quote: Nyrobsky
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezp1XXbEQlY

              reminds Chinese complexes.

              There, in the video, they are directly pointed out that the complexes are Chinese, resold by the Ukaini.
          2. +1
            9 August 2017 14: 45
            Quote: Nyrobsky
            Quote: Normal ok
            Please provide some examples.

            Can’t I googling myself? Well, for example ....
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezp1XXbEQlY

            I looked. So what? Nonsense. Joke from the category of "voosche: Ukraine sells Chinese MANPADS laughing There their "Arrow" and "Eagle" - like dirt. And the Chinese are armed with half of those countries where there is a war with igil (pah, pah, pah, forbidden .....) from there the barmalei took them.
            It was a matter of sane sources (not samples of propaganda), the information of which would be confirmed over time. And then the fake 2015, which later was not confirmed anywhere in the 2 of the year.
            1. +1
              9 August 2017 17: 32
              And tanks in Georgia? Or have you already forgotten the scandal with broken tanks in 2008?
              1. 0
                9 August 2017 20: 36
                Quote: medvedron
                And tanks in Georgia? Or have you already forgotten the scandal with broken tanks in 2008?

                Georgian weapons were sold completely legal. Georgia is not under sanctions. What do terrorists have to do with this?
            2. +2
              9 August 2017 20: 17
              Quote: Normal ok
              It was about sane sources (not propaganda patterns)

              Well, it's like stingers found at the Donetsk airport.
        2. 0
          9 August 2017 18: 41
          Yes Lord, remember the memorable = Fainu = with tanks on board. Among other things, bypassing all possible sanctions were sold
        3. 0
          10 August 2017 17: 51
          It sold to Georgia and delivered air defense calculations.
      2. +1
        9 August 2017 13: 08
        Ukrainians sold everything to the militias that they could from drones to tanks
      3. +1
        13 August 2017 02: 06
        I think that the tankers of the Israeli state will be most worried about this. they were very indignant when there were resales of ATGM cornets from Russia through Jordan if I am not mistaken or where else. And here finally the song is the most corrupted state and the army in the world will have a good anti-tank system which is in the ATO state — that is, the sale can always be attributed to military losses. Guess where the Jewels will go. And the fact that there will be a scandal in the 404th does not interest anyone there; the whole system of power and politics is built on a permanent scandal; nothing changes from this.
        Well, and no one has canceled the supply of these weapons to outbids on the world arms market, and no one knows where they will go further.
        In general, regarding the anti-tank systems in the GK in eastern Ukraine - they are used to their full potential on both sides and applied - there is no shortage - there is one thing - anti-tank systems cost money and a lot - they are small in size and expensive in the arms market and there’s always a big sell to the left the temptation of the price you yourself understand, even for the simple anti-tank systems of even Soviet production, are estimated at thousands of dollars and the more modern anti-tank systems such as cornets and Ukrainian counterparts are priced at dozens of tycoons. Jewelin starts from a few dozen or more. The ATGM is not a tank — although the tanks manage to sell it to the left — but they threw this thing into the trunk of a car and drove off where it was. I arrived in the port city and threw it off and there is a matter of smugglers' technology how to deliver where it should be.
    2. +6
      9 August 2017 11: 24
      Quote: alex-cn
      But if the "shot" javelins in Syria or Iraq will suddenly come up. With ukrovinstvo it is possible.

      With the price of a javelin shot, the temptation is great. This is what kind of nerves are needed to 50 thousand evergreens in the white light like a pretty penny ...
      1. +1
        9 August 2017 14: 16
        Quote: region58
        This is what kind of nerves are needed to 50 thousand evergreens in white light like a pretty penny
        Exactly! Then execute yourself for the rest of your life ... Sell them nafeg - health is more expensive ... laughing
  3. +1
    9 August 2017 06: 54
    Quote: Razvedka_Boem
    And if there are deliveries, some sort of sabotage may well occur and the cargo of these ATGMs will be inoperative ..

    Or end up in other hands ...
  4. +15
    9 August 2017 07: 45
    "Cape" does not help at all For GOS "Javelina" enough half a degree to capture. The available means of heat masking will not become an obstacle even more so.
    “Arena” will not help with the use of “Javelin” in the mode of impact from above from the hill. And the number of available kits is definitely not enough for "at least 1/3 of the tank fleet of the LDNR Armed Forces."
    Heat traps will not help. "Javelin" is not so imperfect ammunition to "peck" at such a trick.
    1. +2
      9 August 2017 08: 12
      Do not exaggerate? There is no protection against you from the Javelins. The same false goals, say yourself that the GOS is not the height of perfection.
      1. +7
        9 August 2017 08: 32
        Quote: kashtak
        Do not exaggerate? There is no protection against you from the Javelins.

        Do you think that UV sensors appeared on the same “Armata” from the fact that there is nowhere to put money?

        Quote: kashtak
        The same false goals, say yourself that the GOS is not the height of perfection.

        I am not saying that "not the height of perfection." There are problems there in the form of a rather long "overclocking" of equipment. But to hit the target after its capture, these problems will not hurt. And the same Polish “Spikes” are deprived of these problems.

        False IR targets will not help. And what will give the command to shoot them? UV sensors or radars that aren't there?
        You can cover the armored object with a "hot" aerosol curtain "Curtains" But again, it does not contain sensors that could give a command to create it.
        1. +6
          9 August 2017 09: 02
          Shovels are not exaggerating. Weaknesses in the “dart” of course are, but they have not yet been identified. I agree with the above arguments - a strike from above was not considered by our designers as the main one.
        2. +1
          9 August 2017 10: 47
          You can borrow from aviation, such as President-S and Klen-M with laser light of the seeker.
        3. 0
          9 August 2017 11: 37
          Quote: Spade
          False IR targets will not help. And what will give the command to shoot them? UV sensors or radars that aren't there?

          in terms of brainstorming, and if false goals in advance to attend to? (place something electrically heated around that will distract you when capturing the target?) Yes, a tank with a drowned engine should have the same temperature as the surrounding one. and the disguise will be further reduced. under the awnings to drive the technique or something. so that there is additional protection on top. in any case, there is already an anti-tank missile system; is the new one really changing the situation so much?
          1. +3
            9 August 2017 13: 52
            Quote: kashtak
            in terms of brainstorming

            Do not storm anything. There are security systems. But it all comes down to sensors, which should give a command for their use. Which we have only on "Armata". This is either a radar or a UV sensor for detecting a “torch” of a rocket
            Quote: kashtak
            Yes, a tank with a drowned engine must have the same temperature as the surrounding

            No. The tank and the underlying surface both heat and cool differently. And to get those same half degrees that are needed to capture the target is not difficult.
          2. +2
            9 August 2017 13: 58
            All the measures you have listed are good in long-term defense. Then, indeed, the tank can be covered, covered, buried, but then it will not be a tank, but a fixed firing point. On the offensive or on the march, all of these measures are not acceptable. "Javelin" is able to attack both from above and direct fire, and its warhead is guaranteed to hit any projection of the tank, including the frontal one. Our tanks are defenseless against these anti-tank systems, it is time to recognize this fact and at least start to do something in this direction. Otherwise, an experienced guy with 10 units of this weapon will be able to destroy a tank company with impunity.
            1. +2
              9 August 2017 21: 55
              Quote: Brylevsky
              All the measures you have listed are good in long-term defense.

              You can add to the defense of an inflatable tank with an infrared engine simulator. And let them spend expensive missiles and report on hundreds of destroyed tanks. On the attack, no one knows how confident the javelin will be in capturing a moving, dusty maneuvering target. Mostly there is a video of shooting at stationary targets.
              1. 0
                10 August 2017 03: 27
                You can add, yes. You can go to all sorts of tricks on the principle: “To fish without fish,” but all this will be pure improvisation until each tank located in the area of ​​possible use of this ATGM is equipped with a truly effective detection and destruction system. Serial, not artisanal. Type of bed nets on the armor of tanks during the assault on Berlin. Until now, our tanks are targets for the operators of these ATGMs. A man gives a command to shoot a rocket, do you really think that a specialist will not distinguish an inflatable tank from a real one? And I do not think that the Americans adopted the ATGM, which did not go through the whole range of field tests, including shooting at moving targets. This complex took part in the war in Iraq, so he has real combat experience. You must admit that the dusty sand of the desert warmed up in the sun is not the same thing as the forest-steppe and fields of Ukraine.
              2. +1
                10 August 2017 17: 55
                It is also possible in an attack - to attach it to a tank on a rigid coupling, which will greatly reduce the likelihood of defeat.
      2. 0
        9 August 2017 12: 58
        There is no special protection from the Javelins. The “curtain” and “Arena” against it will be useless, for many reasons. And this is the tragedy of the situation ... "Javelin" immediately before the shot remembers the thermal signature of the target. Figuratively speaking, her "portrait" ... and confusing him with false thermal goals, alas, will not work out - the "portrait" of a living tank and a heat trap is too different. The same applies to the Stinger MANPADS, which also knows how to distinguish where the false target is and where the real one ... Our tanks against the Javelins are defenseless, unfortunately. Maybe Armata can do something, but where is it, this Armata? And the "Javelins" are already nearby. The only effective protection is a device that distorts the thermal image of the tank. Before the shot, the ATGM homing head will remember the distorted portrait of the target. In the event that a missile launch is detected, the device will change its operating mode and the picture from the target will already be different - a homing process may occur. Although, this is just my fantasy, not supported by absolutely nothing.
        1. +1
          9 August 2017 13: 32
          This is complete nonsense, because the AIM-9X has a much more advanced sensor and brains. And it is one hell compared to the luminous land in ideal conditions of strong contrast, led to traps. Secondly, the veils really help, they appeared even before the serial Zhdavelin. With sensors detecting an approaching rocket, there have also been no problems for a long time, it's about money and desire. You can “distort the image” in general by illuminating the head with a directed laser, no brains can help a blinded rocket. Google President-S or aka Vitebsk.
          1. +1
            9 August 2017 15: 15
            I'm already tired of repeating that the "Javelin" does not have an infrared homing head, that you poke me with the "President - C"? Well, I looked about this system on Wikipedia, for not having another available source ... and what do I see? Quote: "The system automatically detects the launch of a rocket and activates the use of passive and active interference in the INFRARED and radio ranges, which leads to disruption of the homing systems of missiles and their departure for false targets." Everything, there’s no point in reading further ... Comrade! AT Javelin ATGM has not an infrared homing head, but a thermal one! The thermal imager is there ... Do you distinguish a thermal imager from an infrared sight? And you’ll get the hell out of her infrared traps from the attack, not for that it was done so that such cardboard “fools” were carried on ...
            1. +2
              9 August 2017 17: 43
              Quote: Brylevsky
              Do you distinguish a thermal imager from an infrared sight?

              I do not distinguish, tell me how the thermal imager is arranged. How does he know the temperature, if not by infrared radiation.
              From the same Wikipedia, by the way: “The Javelin missile is equipped with an infrared homing head (IR seeker)”
              1. +1
                9 August 2017 20: 07
                Speaking specifically about the thermal imager and infrared sight, the image is drawn on the screen of the indicator device in the thermal imager using a heat sensor located at the focus of the system, transparent for the desired spectral range of wavelengths. A person does not see the target directly, and cannot see, that “optics” is not transparent, the computer draws it for him. How to perceive, and draw. As a rule, with a delay. In the IR sight, the principle is different, there are used electron-optical converters: the thermal rays emitted / reflected from the target / from the target are amplified many times, projected onto the screen and through direct optics directly enter the eye of the observer. In both cases, the target’s own heat is used, but it is recorded in different ways: in the first case, the computer “visualizes” it using a heat sensor, and in the second, the electron-optical converter converts the invisible part of the spectrum to the visible limit. But the thermal sensitivity of a thermal imager is much, much higher, especially if its thermal radiation sensor is cooled.
                On Wikipedia, yes, it says that Javelin has an ICG. But what is its sensitive element? Heat sensitive matrix! This is a thermal imager! The image from which first hits the operator’s screen when the target is captured, and then directly to the computer of the missile’s flight control system after it is shot. The key word here is image. Thus, the "IR" GOS "Javelina" has nothing to do with the IR GOS missiles of previous generations. This means that it will not work either to disrupt the homing process using countermeasures of previous generations.
                1. 0
                  10 August 2017 02: 38
                  Well, sort of figured out that guidance is still on IR. Next, how to visit the tank.
                  If the target is selected by the operator through the optical channel, and then followed by infrared, then how the operator manages it in a second (or less) of approach. And is it necessary to accompany something already? The option is doubtful.
                  If a spotter, then the joke of defeating hidden targets is lost. And in what form to transmit data to the rocket. The option is unreliable and also extremely doubtful.
                  If the GOS chooses the target itself by IR, then how does it distinguish the tank from many other sources of IR EMP. The option is possible, but not guaranteed reliable.
                  1. +1
                    10 August 2017 03: 52
                    Are you asking me a question, or are you just sharing your thoughts? The target is selected by the operator through the thermal imaging channel, a thermal imager is built into the launcher. The thermal imager searches for targets. After the target is detected and identified, the ATGM operator switches to the view from the homing missile, that is, it sees the world through the "eyes" of the missile. This indirectly confirms the fact that the GOS really "sees" the world around it, in contrast to the IR GOS of previous generations, where the target was perceived as stupid, a heat source against a contrasting background. Through the looking homing missile, the operator captures the target and gives the command to shoot. Using a heat-sensitive matrix as a heat-sensitive element, rather than a simple bolometer, makes it possible to obtain a high-quality "picture", which, in turn, allows you to create software that forms the image of the target in the "brains" of the rocket, the rocket sees a thermal portrait of the target in all of it variety. All this is written in the same Wikipedia. The source is so-so, but there is no other. It is foolish to assume that the rocket will "lead" to the heat trap - the thermal signatures of the trap and the real tank are too different.
                    1. 0
                      10 August 2017 04: 47
                      I already spied on Wikipedia, could not resist. It is written that Javelin is not so scary and works well only in Call of Duty.
                      1. +2
                        10 August 2017 05: 17
                        Please understand me correctly ... I'm not a fan of the Javelin ATGM. I don’t know something, I’m mistaken in something, they accuse me of “not knowing the material part” ... so be it. Missing knowledge can be made up. Human losses are irreplaceable ... If everything develops exactly as it develops, and deliveries go, and the first losses go, it will be bitter, very bitter ... Here, many free tips give out how to fool Javelin and assure that it will work. So I want to ask them all: are they ready to get into the tank that the Javelin fires on, so that they can practically apply their recommendations? Or "Chukchi is not a reader, Chukchi is a writer"? No, they are not ready for this. Because the "Javelin" has real experience in combat use in Iraq. Of course, the complex is not without shortcomings and limitations (and whoever does not have ours, or what?), But for the tank it is deadly. And to hope that the blind "Blind", or not to know where it got from the "President-S" tank, or difficult weather conditions will save him from destruction, this ... this is criminal. It looks like we have a serious defense gap. It seems to me. Reassure me if you can.
            2. +1
              10 August 2017 17: 57
              Hmm, thermal and IR are synonyms.
          2. 0
            9 August 2017 16: 05
            Quote: “It is possible to distort the image” by illuminating the head with a directed laser, no brains can help a blinded rocket. "Well, what wavelength do you plan to use a laser? And what wavelengths of light do thermal imagers deal with? And I haven’t heard such a thing so that, for example, a tank, in an attempt to prevent an aiming shot by itself, illuminates the thermal imaging sight of the firing tank with laser radiation, because the wavelengths are different! The laser beam will not illuminate the thermal imager because they use different frequencies of the light spectrum.
            1. +4
              9 August 2017 17: 49
              Quote: Brylevsky
              The laser beam will not illuminate the thermal imager, because they use different frequencies of the light spectrum.

              Suddenly, the laser may be infrared. Suddenly, the laser can be multi-band. Suddenly, all this was invented a long time ago.
              About how many wonderful discoveries we have: google: // 1k11, 1k17
              1. +1
                9 August 2017 20: 32
                What, joked, right? Why are you here propelled laser systems dragged? Do they have anything in service? Or, do the above-mentioned Presidential aviation systems are placed on our tanks? Look at things realistically. And the reality is that for the time being we have nothing to meet with “Javelins”. “Afghanistan” is still exotic, and with such a pace of adoption of “Armata”, it will remain so for a long time. KAZ "Arena" will not protect the tank from an attack from above, for the simple reason that it is not intended for this. "Curtain" ... Yes, all hope for its metallized aerosol clouds and burning "pills", perhaps, the GOS will blur the "picture" for the "eyes" ... but, as one respected author said above, "Curtain" "Javelin" , simply, will not see, because the "Javelin" does not radiate and does not give out anything, except for the torch of its engine and, directly, flight. What will we meet? Yes, the "budget" option: buy a pack of laser pointers of different colors on the Chinese market (different laser colors, different wavelengths!), Add an IR laser from a broken DVD-drive of the computer to it, and give them to the tank commanders. What would those, ponimash, "with directional laser radiation blinded the GOS of an approaching rocket." Cheap and cheerful.
                1. 0
                  10 August 2017 02: 40
                  The fact that a laser with the right wavelength is not a problem. The task is yes, the problem is no. It will be necessary - they will do it, even rubies for this need not be raised.
                  1. 0
                    10 August 2017 04: 01
                    Your words, yes, the Russian Defense Ministry in my ears ... you almost convinced me that everything is not so bad. What else will our “eggheads” have time to come up with something, and the military will launch it in a series. I just wish that before the start of hostilities ...
      3. 0
        9 August 2017 15: 27
        We have no protection from the Javelins. Judging by some, quite not reliable, information, only Armata has something capable of shooting down these missiles on approach. All the rest of our tanks, in a duel situation, will become just targets. How, why did it happen? Where they looked, what they thought ... is incomprehensible. For such miscalculations in the country's defense, it is necessary to shoot.
      4. +2
        10 August 2017 09: 10
        Quote: kashtak
        Do not exaggerate?

        "Means" against the "javelins" can be found. (Aerosol curtains, special complexes of "blinding" the infrared seeker with laser radiation ...); but it seems that this problem was not seriously addressed even in the RF Armed Forces .... so what can we say about equipping the VSN ?!
    2. +3
      9 August 2017 10: 51
      For some reason, more advanced aviation air-to-air pecks that things have now come to work in the optical range such as the Verba MANPADS, but there is no more primitive anti-tank one.
    3. +2
      9 August 2017 11: 21
      Quote: Spade
      Heat traps will not help. "Javelin" is not so imperfect ammunition to "peck" at such a trick.

      AIM-9X didn’t peck at the heat traps from the old Syrian SU-22. Because it was developed and tested on American traps))
      1. 0
        10 August 2017 11: 45
        And it didn’t occur to you that a rocket could, simply put, be defective? Could it be like that? I would not attribute the imperfection of the rocket to the perfection of the trap ... So Wikipedia writes that: “A new matrix infrared seeker has been installed, which forms an image of the target in the infrared range and is not sensitive to infrared traps.” I understand, I understand - the source of information is so-so, but still ... it is hard to believe that pragmatic Americans will launch a series of obviously "failed" weapons ... Where is the logic? Moreover, we are still "Enemy No. 1" for them. I am inclined to believe that the GOS missile was not working properly, or we are carefully “sucked in” a specific “misinformation”. Moreover, with the filing of the Americans themselves ...
    4. +1
      13 August 2017 02: 31
      you damn how to write fairy tales at least about this ATGM - against it for a long time since the 90s there have been means of protection and are 100% effective. all the problems in the automation of the protection process, that is, shooting the smoke screen at the right time. If a laser range finder is used on the jewel, this simplifies the task - the tank will be filled with the source of the impact.
      Regarding the same armature, there is a complex of automatic detection of anti-tank missile systems and jamming - that is, this already passed stage.
      And as for the blows from the top, throw the guys down - the cornets pierce everything for DZ - what's the difference how to hit if the charge is correct how things are with the Jewels I xs but the fact that in modern tanks, especially western ones, most of the crew is in the turret is obvious and a blow to it will lead tank failure although the mechanic driver and tank will be on track. In general, this is a dumb measure of peeps — ATGMs are usually created for certain purposes, such as BTR BMP tanks and let's say fortifications — different charges are different for controlling and capturing the target. One and the same tank will be resistant to one type of ATGM and vulnerable to another, this is obvious.
      The technique that they wiggle on the Donbas does not require the latest anti-tank systems of the latest modifications; there are no Jewish 4 chariots; there are no abrams there in the last modification of the armor; Everything that is used by both parties is perfectly cut out by Soviet-style anti-tank systems, which, as it were, were documented at the beginning of the conflict. Although most of the losses were artillery fire and MLRS.
      In general, it’s a must to understand that ATGMs are not a means of attack but a means of defense — an attack means these are MLRS howitzers and mortars — after practicing this charisma, tanks and infantry can freely go into battle, since if there were any other positions, it was clearly no longer there Jewels or Cornets - everything mixed with shit after the artillery strike.
      Well, and most importantly, it’s not worth forgetting the ATGM itself and the person doesn’t wear it - it is delivered to the position on the transopert even if by Lada but by car — all this should be worked out by intelligence. In fact, any war is a war of scouts.
    5. 0
      13 August 2017 05: 55
      Good . And the electromagnetic field created at a specific PLOT of the battle can block the operation of the control and launch system of Javelin
  5. +5
    9 August 2017 07: 51
    And accuracy can only be ensured by one thing - adjustable artillery shells and mines, the list of which includes: a 152-mm round of the ZOF 75 "Centimeter-M" for the self-propelled guns "Akatsiya", "Hyacinth-S", "Msta-S" (including towed variants “B”) with a range of 18 km, a 122 mm Kitolov-2M projectile (for D-30 howitzers and self-propelled guns “Gvozdika”) with a range of 12 km, as well as a 120-mm adjustable KM-8 “Gran” mine "With a range of 9 km (for mortars 2B11).

    Of all the above, only "Centimeter-M" is correctable. The rest are manageable.
  6. +5
    9 August 2017 10: 09
    It is clear that the Javelins are not a super-weapon, however, it is impossible not to reckon with them and when they receive their APU, in my opinion, it’s easier to prepare operators than DNR artillerymen who can work with guided and adjusted ammunition. And this means, if we discard the winds, etc., that the task is non-trivial and unsolvable in a short period of time, therefore, preparation for the delivery of anti-tank systems should be started now, based on the availability of existing forces and means. At the stage of defense against alleged APU attacks, equipping and improving positions, including reserve and false ones, and developing a warning system for ATGM attacks and maneuvering equipment from one shelter to another, as well as reconnaissance and targeting of possible ATGM launch sites with the allocation of special fire weapons for work only for ATGM operators.
    At the stage of the counterattack, to work out measures for the interaction of infantry and armored vehicles, building battle formations and artillery support, again with the allocation of special forces and equipment for work on anti-tank systems.
  7. +5
    9 August 2017 10: 23
    There will be an aggravation of the situation and an increase in these ... F
  8. 0
    9 August 2017 10: 23
    And also the maximum range of the FGM-148 is 2 kilometers, you can simply not approach this range.
    1. +1
      9 August 2017 13: 17
      Yes. But how do you discover a disguised ATRA calculation? Properly prepared anti-tank ambush will not leave tankers any chance ...
      1. +1
        13 August 2017 02: 33
        anti-sniper tools have optics detection. such hefty optics as on jewel are found at a sufficiently large distance.
    2. 0
      9 August 2017 13: 19
      when the mountain does not go to the Magomed Magomed goes to the mountain
  9. +2
    9 August 2017 10: 42
    I don’t see this miracle weapon directly helping to radically change the situation in local conflicts in the Middle East. In general, he specializes in tanks like kakbe, and how he will be on fortifications and infantry is another question. It offers some too smart options, but in fact there is a banal missile with an infrared seeker, which they have already learned to deceive in aviation. The problem is solved, by the way on Armata if anyone does not know, there are cameras on the tower similar to helicopter ones, on command of which there is shooting traps. Here, in principle, you can also equip old tanks with LDNR forces using kits based on helicopter and sensors.

    1. +1
      9 August 2017 14: 24
      This is not a "banal" rocket with infrared seeker. Do you understand the difference between infrared and thermal sight? So, in “Javelin” the homing head is thermal. It’s impossible to confuse her with infrared traps used in aviation and grenades used in the Shtor. In addition, as I said above, the missile of this complex before the shot remembers the thermal portrait of the target being attacked - it is all the more useless to use any traps, because the thermal radiation spectrum of each tank is unique, like human faces. The rocket remembers this “face” and during its flight constantly compares what it “sees” with what “should be”. The idea, in general, is not new and has long been tested on other types of military missiles, in particular, one of the Iskander versions. So, GOS “Javelina” must somehow be “misled”, organize some kind of "masquerade", something like all these "Lip", "Bulk carriers" and others, or shoot it down on approach. Only it still needs to be discovered by something. And give the target designation in time. And accept and bring down. Distance, 2 km ... seconds! It turns out that an air defense system and / or radar should be installed on the tank, with an accompanying control system in order to aim the anti-aircraft tower machine gun ... absurdity?
      1. +1
        10 August 2017 09: 44
        Quote: Brylevsky
        It turns out that an air defense system and / or radar should be installed on the tank, with an accompanying control system in order to aim the anti-aircraft tower machine gun ... absurdity?

        Well, why so soon .... absurdity ?! The "Great Shaves" experienced the same "anti-aircraft machine-gun" KAZ ... and, about the "Armata", the anti-tank "machine gun" was mentioned against anti-tank ammunition ...
        1. 0
          10 August 2017 11: 26
          Tested yes. Ours also experienced something similar. Now I do not remember, but laziness rummaging through books. There we had some kind of multi-barrel machine gun that would create a high density of fire and increase the likelihood of defeat ... there was a corresponding SLA with a locator. I don’t remember why this idea was then abandoned. Maybe they thought that in the first tank duel this expensive “toy” would be blown away from the cannon by a dog, and the ammunition of a multi-barreled, fast-firing machine gun took up a lot of space and had a fair weight ... we like to brag about the low weight of our tanks. .. "so many tons easier than that ...". I won’t say anything about “Armata”, because I don’t know anything about her. I don’t even know if we have it in service. Does he have at least one military unit? I only saw him at the Victory Parade on TV ... and that he really can there, only real combat operations will show. I ask no offense. From the T-64, too, at first were delighted. It ended up being never exported due to low engine reliability.
          1. +1
            10 August 2017 12: 42
            Quote: Brylevsky
            I ask no offense

            So there is no reason for resentment! About "Armata", in general, it is better to remain silent (wait) until the "clarification" of all situations ("rumors") associated with this device. The mention of the “Almaty” anti-aircraft machine gun as a component of the “PRO” tank, I was very surprised myself ... But, perhaps, it’s not worth rejecting the idea of ​​a “machine-gun” KAZ ... there are many examples in history when a certain idea is at a certain temporary the (technological) stage was declared insolvent (even absurd); but it was successfully resolved later (at another time, with new technologies).
      2. 0
        10 August 2017 18: 01
        > Do you understand the difference between infrared and thermal sight?
        No.
        > the thermal radiation spectrum of each tank is unique
        Because it changes continuously, with changes in temperature. I just walked past the object and it became unrecognizable.
      3. 0
        12 August 2017 00: 17
        The longer I read the panicky praise of Javelin in this thread, the more it seems to me “in my heart” that this is all a dummy.
        The "image" that this rocket remembers is removed by a sensor with a resolution of 64 * 64 pixels! What will she "remember" there? The fact that she generally takes the hell out of the target in many weather conditions has been said more than once.
        The fact that she can "confuse everything" too.
        Range rocket - 2,5 km. Mass warhead, etc. not really great - hopes for an “attack from above”.
        The system of "dynamic image change" on Armata stands - they wrote about it. A distributed engine exhaust system or the like is used. Something like that.
        As regards the struggle against this scourge of ordinary "cast-iron" tanks on the battlefield - well ... But is it much easier if something else flies - for example, a "crowbar" from the same distance or the same Cornet? Apparently, Javelins are really not a very useful thing. Personally, I would prefer a system like Cornet D on the Tiger for about the same money (!) - it’s easier to just be out of the reach of snipers and tank guns than to guess will fly into your forehead in a minute and more than capturing a target with powerful optics and not breathing a bullet from a sniper or not?
        1. 0
          12 August 2017 00: 18
          Well, I especially note that the price of Javelin is approximately equal to the price of that very rusty T-72. And the chances of not living up to a meeting with the tank are not small.
  10. +2
    9 August 2017 11: 13
    Only massive fire from 152-240 mm guns along the entire line of fire. We'll have to remember Comrade Voronov. 300 trunks per km of breakthrough front.
    1. 0
      9 August 2017 12: 47
      Quote: Music
      Only massive fire from 152-240 mm guns along the entire line of fire. We'll have to remember Comrade Voronov. 300 trunks per km of breakthrough front.

      Or the battle of Borodino - recalled the grandmother’s girl’s dream ....
  11. 0
    9 August 2017 11: 30
    You described the methods of counteraction that involve the use of modern Russian technology in the Donbass, which is hardly possible, for a number of reasons ...
  12. +3
    9 August 2017 11: 50
    The best remedy against the Javelins is the Ukrainian ensigns who live by the commandment: "Serve while your hands are on!". Thus, soon the Javelins can enter the armament of New Russia
  13. +9
    9 August 2017 12: 11
    The most correct would be the placement on social networks of a proposal to buy militias of serviceable "Javelins" for about 5 bucks. Settlement on the spot in cash or on any card of any bank. Only 10 million greenery, and NO ONE of this shell will not fly anywhere laughing
  14. 0
    9 August 2017 12: 15
    Buy Javelins from Khokhlyat ensigns!
    1. 0
      11 August 2017 01: 41
      Yes they will buy the same as drones
  15. 0
    9 August 2017 12: 26
    Let B-2 instead of sawn down TU-160 put :)
  16. +2
    9 August 2017 12: 29
    In general, they are not supplied with javelins:
    A contract for the supply of 100 PSRL-1 launchers worth $ 554.
    Contract Date: November 11, 2016.
    Delivery Date: April 8, 2017.

    PSRL-1 (manual anti-tank grenade launcher) is an upgraded version of the Russian anti-tank RPG-7 hand grenade launcher. AirTronic USA launched mass production of these weapons in 2016.
    1. +2
      9 August 2017 14: 04
      Quote: Max Golovanovo
      In general, they are not supplied with javelins:

      Duc, as required to prove, because "hto give them something?" Well, what mattresses have as their favorite child - igiloids, but they only use the “Tou” without disdaining “Cornets” and RPGs. A year and a half ago there was infa that, it seems, the Java Kurds flashed, and that is not a fact. And here it’s for some kind of freebie freeloaders ... No, it’s not a ride, especially since there is simply no point, because a lot of money will go away ... in general, they will leave somewhere without returning.
    2. 0
      10 August 2017 10: 46
      I heard the same thing that Amerzotka copied the reliable and cheap RPG-7, for deliveries to banana republics. cheap and cheerful ....
  17. +2
    9 August 2017 12: 31
    I propose to shift the thoughts into a practical economic plane. Someone from the commentators wrote about the cost of one complex of 50 thousand dollars, but I came across other figures. 80 is a fired missile, the complex as a whole (with launchers and other) from 125. Why would it suddenly become so generous after delivering the Hammers on plastic wheels? ))) Something that has been mothballed for ten years in the reserve - maybe they will. What it’s time to pay for disposal already. Generous Scrooge - he is so ...
  18. +1
    9 August 2017 12: 33
    20% of the Javelins will be inoperative, 40% will be sold by the same DPR, and the remaining 40% will be brutally drunk by the commanders of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Here is such a statistic. laughing
  19. 0
    9 August 2017 12: 44
    No Javelin is capable of making a difference in favor of the Armed Forces. The militia, in contrast, will immediately have effective weapons from Russia.
  20. 0
    9 August 2017 12: 56
    Well, they will burn the 404th as well as fifty rusty T-72s with miners, then, as usual, they will sell half of the Javellins, and half will prosrut. None of this will change.
  21. 0
    9 August 2017 12: 58
    Well! Specialists know what to do. It remains to be done, as soon as immediately!
    It is also useful for developing skills. Alas, she learns to kill, so that you don’t get hurt!
    This is the world.
  22. 0
    9 August 2017 13: 48
    After US supplies, this weapon will appear in the Donbass, and exporters of "democracy" understand this well. If deliveries begin they will be minimal - political.
  23. 0
    9 August 2017 14: 09
    Quote: NOVERU
    when the mountain does not go to the Magomed Magomed goes to the mountain
    - infantry and snipers
  24. +1
    9 August 2017 14: 10
    There is only one answer - to deliver MANPADS to the spirits in Afghanistan.
    1. 0
      10 August 2017 10: 44
      What would then cover drug trafficking ?! very stupid ...
  25. +2
    9 August 2017 14: 28
    There is a profane question - did anyone actually see this miraculous complex in action in combat conditions? Well, yes, it’s just a spectacular shooting at a tank at a training ground, which is stuffed with explosives and explodes for some reason even before a rocket hits, but in a real battle? In Syria, the "opposition" hits the TOW armored vehicles, not the "Javelins," although it is very strange that the Yankees did not provide their "super complex" for testing.
    So such a modest question - is this javelin not just an advertised scarecrow and does it really have the characteristics that they talk about?
  26. 0
    9 August 2017 15: 04
    Quote: Spade
    Quote: kashtak
    in terms of brainstorming

    Do not storm anything. There are security systems. But it all comes down to sensors, which should give a command for their use. Which we have only on "Armata". This is either a radar or a UV sensor for detecting a “torch” of a rocket
    Quote: kashtak
    Yes, a tank with a drowned engine must have the same temperature as the surrounding

    No. The tank and the underlying surface both heat and cool differently. And to get those same half degrees that are needed to capture the target is not difficult.

    So are there sensors or are they not? if not, it means either storming or fighting without tanks. although something tells me that you're still thickening. and not so scary. about the same "Cornet" some say for sure and without a chance, while others simply will not get.
  27. +3
    9 August 2017 15: 41
    What nonsense with these javelins ?? Well, what's the difference if you put 200 Javiks or 200 Competitions ?? "Shot-forgot" is a principle for children who have fun in such a curiosity. But how will this create an advantage ?? Well, for example, if instead of the Javelins they put up Competitions, is there less danger for the militia or something ?? What kind of kindergarten ?!
    1. 0
      9 August 2017 23: 09
      contests are cheaper, belching is not that ...
  28. 0
    9 August 2017 17: 23
    I read the comments ..
    Firstly, not the fact that the Javelins will come.
    The second - even if they come, after a couple of dozens of destroyed tanks, they will find protection. After all, in fact, they will beat Russia. In any case, it is better to find out what these Javelins can do in a local conflict. Yes, this is pure practice. Without humanity. But in war, what does it look like?
    You do not.
    1. 0
      9 August 2017 23: 14
      There is an old principle ... We ... have, but we are growing stronger ... the coefficient of resilience ... will increase ... and we will come up with an ingenious squiggle ...
    2. 0
      10 August 2017 10: 43
      Syria has already shown the javelins in all its beauty - yes, this is serious, BUT it is not fatal ...
      1. 0
        10 August 2017 12: 07
        I wonder where infa? Can you give a reference? About "TOW" in the know, but about this ghoul in Syria I hear for the first time ...
  29. +1
    9 August 2017 17: 30
    the method of struggle is very simple - to open a safe purchase of complexes with imitation of battle for the excuse of the selling side and all and yes, do not shrink in price
  30. The comment was deleted.
  31. 0
    9 August 2017 18: 47
    Quote: Mountain Shooter
    The most correct would be the placement on social networks of a proposal to buy militias of serviceable "Javelins" for about 5 bucks. Settlement on the spot in cash or on any card of any bank. Only 10 million greenery, and NO ONE of this shell will not fly anywhere
    1. 0
      9 August 2017 18: 47
      apparently it will be so
  32. +1
    9 August 2017 19: 49
    the dart is good because it fired and forgot generally very expensive but a good system can’t be said for anything
    1. 0
      10 August 2017 10: 41
      For banana republics or dung type Ukraine - just awesome!
  33. +2
    9 August 2017 21: 38
    Quote: Brylevsky
    This is not a "banal" rocket with infrared seeker. Do you understand the difference between infrared and thermal sight? So, in “Javelin” the homing head is thermal. It’s impossible to confuse her with infrared traps used in aviation and grenades used in the Shtor. In addition, as I said above, the missile of this complex before the shot remembers the thermal portrait of the target being attacked - it is all the more useless to use any traps, because the thermal radiation spectrum of each tank is unique, like human faces. The rocket remembers this “face” and during its flight constantly compares what it “sees” with what “should be”. The idea, in general, is not new and has long been tested on other types of military missiles, in particular, one of the Iskander versions. So, GOS “Javelina” must somehow be “misled”, organize some kind of "masquerade", something like all these "Lip", "Bulk carriers" and others, or shoot it down on approach. Only it still needs to be discovered by something. And give the target designation in time. And accept and bring down. Distance, 2 km ... seconds! It turns out that an air defense system and / or radar should be installed on the tank, with an accompanying control system in order to aim the anti-aircraft tower machine gun ... absurdity?

    You’re my God, it turns out that thermal imagers and infrared sights are two different things ... But the men didn’t know ... This is an illiterate description of the image intensifier from several posts above, the surprise is to relate to amplifiers of the visible range, to NVD, in simple terms, and not to thermal imaging matrices and homing heads, which, as the century of scientific and technological progress tells us, are divided only into cooled and not cooled. Some image intensifiers are really capable of clinging to the near infrared spectrum, with active illumination with an infrared headlamp, but they have nothing to do with infrared seeker. No more than a camera in your phone that can see the IR diode in the TV remote. Learn the materiel. . "Unique face", those thermal signature of the target changes from elementary progas, a shot from a gun or just moving out of the shade in the sun, and if Javelin is so uniquely vigilant that he is able to see and remember from a couple of kilometers a "unique thermal picture" with a half-degree step, , to counteract it, it’s enough just once a few seconds to press on the gas pedal, giving a cloud of exhaust and heating the intake manifold and the MTO cover, thereby changing and violating this picture, a fighter who will simultaneously let out a gas stream from the hatch from carbon dioxide fire extinguisher, completely and irreversibly violating this "unique picture", and driving crazy smart brains of the rocket in general I am silent. This phrase doesn’t bother, no - Before starting the shooters in the overview mode through the GOS with the help of a frame adjustable in height and width, it selects the target ?
    Everything is much simpler - there is a heat source on which the GOS missiles clings. Even in the open description of the complex there is a phrase - At dawn and dusk, when the background temperature changes rapidly, about 1 hour conditions may exist when it is impossible to capture the target . The only thing that is true from all this stream of consciousness is the lack of sensors ... And then, dear, you are cunning, because the CLU is equipped with a laser range finder that automatically triggers the Curtain, the question is, how much old junk will be sent, if at all.
    1. +1
      10 August 2017 04: 27
      I am not a specialist, so I will not enter into a dispute with you. Have knowledge not yet available to me? Great. If everything is as simple as you say, and an anti-tank missile can really be confused with a simple "gazovka" or moving the tank into the shadows, then I am calm for our tanks. But if those measures that you listed above do not work, then you will have the deepest contempt from me. Because, despite all your knowledge, you have made the wrong recommendations. Now it remains only to wait for supplies to assess the correctness of your conclusions. And something tells me ... something tells me that in your conclusions you will not be quite right ...
      1. 0
        27 February 2018 06: 54
        For the most part, this is irony. Because in real life, with respect to the realities of the armies of the Russian Federation and the USA, and not the Papuans, who were planted by several Javelins to destroy the T-55, which, together due to complete tenacity and a critical level of wear, are like one javelin, this will look completely different . Do not want to read BUSV, read at least Melnikov Biryukov Fighting with tanks. WIMO USSR 1967. Since then, nothing has fundamentally changed. Here is an excerpt.
        The offensive begins, as a rule, by delivering a sudden nuclear strike against the enemy in combination with powerful fire raids of all artillery and mortars of the division and air strikes. Immediately after nuclear strikes, tank battalions of the brigades of the first echelon of the division attack the enemy quickly, trying to go to the flank, to the rear and, in cooperation with motorized infantry, destroy their firing positions and reserves in the depths of defense on the move.
        To develop an offensive in the depths of the enemy’s defense, the commanders of divisions and corps can use: nuclear ammunition, artillery fire and air strikes, tactical airborne assault forces, second echelons and reserves, as well as decisive maneuver by parts of the first echelon to the direction where the highest and fastest possible the rate of advance behind enemy lines. It is advisable to get around well-prepared anti-tank lines or areas from the flanks. If this is not possible, it is recommended that these strongholds be destroyed in advance with a nuclear strike so as not to slow down the pace of attack.

        Mass destruction of tanks is carried out through single, group and massive nuclear strikes.
        Single nuclear strikes, depending on the power of the nuclear munition, will be used to destroy the respective tank units (units). A nuclear projectile of an ultra-small (low) power can defeat a tank platoon (company), and medium power - a tank company (battalion).
        A group nuclear strike, also depending on the power of missiles and bombs, can inflict significant losses on tanks of a tank battalion, tank or motorized infantry brigade, and even a division.
        A massive nuclear strike of dozens of nuclear munitions is capable of inflicting a decisive defeat on a tank group of several armored or mechanized (motorized infantry) divisions and thwarting their advance. The use of a larger number of medium and large-caliber nuclear weapons in a massive strike can lead to the defeat of large tank groups and paralyze the actions of army corps and field armies of the enemy. This method of mass (group) destruction of tanks, or rather entire tank units, formations and associations with their tanks, nuclear attack weapons and all other means, is decisive.
        A massive attack by missile forces and aviation in anticipation of a head-on battle can lead to the defeat of the main tank group of the enemy before the start of head-on battles and thus predetermine the fate of the head-on battle.
        When the enemy prepares a counterattack, the advancing troops with massive nuclear strikes can destroy his tank group and frustrate the counterattack.
        In defense, as a result of a mass (group) defeat of tanks during counter-preparation, it is possible to defeat enemy tank forces even in the areas of their concentration or at the time of advancement and deployment and thereby disrupt its attack. Thus, a massive (group) defeat of enemy tanks by nuclear weapons Prior to joining the battle, its main strike group is the highest form of activity, ensures the achievement of a decisive goal - victory as soon as possible with the least expenditure of human and material resources.

        So tell us how a fighter who accidentally survives after all this performance will use a high-tech, electronically-loaded ATGM with infrared seeker?
        Welcome to the real world...
    2. +1
      10 August 2017 14: 06
      laser rangefinder is an option, it is not needed for guiding a rocket, fighters with a complex (without a pipe) very often use it for simple observation - a very successful thing turned out.
      about the inability to capture the target at dawn and dusk - you wrote about stationary targets, fortification bunkers.
      you expose yourself as a specialist at this twisting fact for what UTB? or you are not a specialist how do you writhe yourself or are you just a liar?
  34. 0
    9 August 2017 22: 21
    We are talking about the transfer to Kiev of short-range anti-tank missile systems FGM-148 "Javelin", which the US Department of Defense offers in its recommendation to the White House last week.

    Well, get to know this infection better. Here, the good old tricks of the times of the Afghan war may come up. Created in 1982, the station of optical-electronic interference SOEP-V1A (product L-166 or Lipa) saved not a single side. There is nothing complicated there. A heating element (nichrome spiral or xenon lamp) and a system of rotating lenses, which created a pulsed stream around the helicopter, continuously moving infrared rays, causing the tracking system of the rocket to swing. Of course, for a tank it needs to be hired, but the principle is clear. The Achilles heel of the Linden were dead zones, there would be no dead zones on the tank.
  35. 0
    9 August 2017 23: 03
    I didn’t understand one thing ... Javelinov, it seems like, so far, no, but the headhead is already serious ... so is there a boy?
  36. The comment was deleted.
  37. +1
    10 August 2017 03: 25
    the igilovites also have what!
  38. 0
    10 August 2017 10: 40
    Something the Javelins didn’t turn the tide of the war in Syria, and there the Amerzot got a lot of them!
  39. 0
    10 August 2017 12: 11
    Though you argue, even though there are no javelins in the deserts of Syria and Iraq, they have shown themselves well. But no one has tried to shoot them at the tanks hiding in the green)))
  40. 0
    10 August 2017 13: 45
    There can be no doubt that shipments of the "Javelins" and other types of weapons will be available. Trump wants it or not, but he will have to authorize the supply of offensive weapons to Ukraine so that Congress lags behind him. Judging by the article, the Komandirsha-E optical-electronic warfare complex, as well as other systems, can only weaken the threat from American ATGMs and not eliminate them. In this situation, all hope remains for intelligence - when. where and how many complexes will be delivered. where it is located, how it is guarded. Well, then our saboteurs come into action. A couple of "Javelins" I think it would not be superfluous to grab our experts for study. And destroy the rest of the complexes and do so in the future to prevent the latest weapons from falling into the hands of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    1. 0
      10 August 2017 17: 51
      I would like to speak out about the capture of weapons. In my opinion, there is no need to wait for the start of hostilities with its use. I think you can legally buy products through shell companies. Javelin is exported to a number of countries. What is the matter to the Americans, where, for example, 2 pieces from a batch of 200 units that Jordan bought, say, have disappeared. Well, they sold and sold ... they received money for the contract, everyone is happy. Further, Jordan itself will decide what to do with these complexes. What if she wants to sell some of them? Just like them, the “Muslim brothers" from the North Caucasus. In the ranks of which there will be people financially interested in transferring smuggling complexes to representatives of the Russian Defense Ministry. Fantasy, of course ... but the "black market" of weapons really exists.
  41. +1
    10 August 2017 15: 21
    Story on Facebook:
    “It’s scary to even think how the Russian Federation will respond to deliveries to the fascists in 404“ lethal weapons. ”I wonder about the options and anticipate how our enemies will tremble in horror:
    1 formidable silence
    2. formidable concern
    3. Additional investments in US bonds
    4. Sanctions of North Korea
    5. Combinations of two or more of the above.
    And we will not allow killing Russians anywhere in the world! (with)"
  42. 0
    10 August 2017 15: 37
    https://youtu.be/-wwMpoxdJwo тут сравнение
  43. 0
    10 August 2017 18: 40
    We will respond by eliminating the ukrokhunta without looking back at the USA! And all the problems will gradually "resolve"!
  44. 0
    11 August 2017 01: 40
    Yes, they will immediately begin to sell to Donbass residents, if they are suitable
  45. 0
    11 August 2017 15: 51
    Quote: BMP-2
    what prevents Russia from declaring Poroshenko's regime terrorist

    Nothing interferes. Only the rest of the countries seem to be sideways. Do you see a different opinion about the conflict in Europe?
  46. 0
    11 August 2017 15: 58
    Quote: Razvedka_Boem
    after a couple of dozens of burned tanks, they will find protection.

    And it will be too late. Can you imagine what it means to “seek protection” in an offensive?
    We need to think now, to install KAZ. The economy is now hundreds of thousands in the future we will receive losses of millions

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