Indonesia handed over the first South Korean submarine project DSME1400

According to the blog bmpd, 2 August The Indonesian Navy transferred the first diesel-electric Nagapasa submarine of the DSME1400 project, a modification of the German 209 / 1200 project, to South Korea.

Its construction was carried out in accordance with the contract from 20 December 2011 cost 1,1 billion, providing for the supply of the Indonesian Navy to the 2019 year three submarines (two - from the shipyards of South Korea, one - from the shipbuilding enterprise in Indonesia).

At the conclusion of this agreement, the Koreans were able to circumvent not only the Russian proposal to build two submarines of the 636 project (in particular through a loan), but also the original builder of the 209 / 1200 submarines - the German company Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW).

The main submarine for Indonesia, Nagapasa, was launched at the DSME facility in Okpo 3 on December 2013, and the official bookmark ceremony was held on 9 on April 2015. The launch ceremony took place on March 24 2016 of the year. Factory running trials were started in July 2016, but were delayed, requiring the elimination of a number of defects (among other things, a shortage of full speed underwater was detected), resulting in the transfer of the boat was delayed by about nine months relative to the contract period.

Comments

[Teberii]

Now the competition in the market will only increase, Koreans with their shipbuilding technologies will give odds to any country.

[soroKING]

mabud yes, but our 636 is better, it looks like diplomacy + kickbacks

[Tatyana]

Teberii
Koreans with their shipbuilding technologies will give odds to any country.

On the one hand, Russia needs to partly come to terms with this, because "You won’t jump above your head!"
And on the other hand, on the nose of TMV. And why should Russia build ON YOUR money in DEBT to other countries something about weapons?
Russia itself must now have quantitatively and qualitatively quickly increased your own submarine fleet! To catch up with the Koreans of the Russian Navy will be primarily for its own interests of protecting the national security of the Russian Federation in TMV.
Now we should talk first of all - in the very near future - about the priority of the national security of the Russian Federation over the "market"!

[hrych]

Quote: Tatiana

Now we should talk first of all - in the very near future - about the priority of the national security of the Russian Federation over the "market"!

Probably no one argues, but when at the expense of the client, we will build ourselves and they, too, are not bad. Also, after all, the construction of the boat itself is not limited to, expenses are just beginning, from staff training, repairs, spare parts, etc. And it is clear that the Koreans offered more favorable conditions. They have it cheaper than the German original, this is understandable, as Mars and Sang-Young . And since Indonesia already had only two boats, and it was the 209/1300 project, although the original German ones, the choice is clear too. Unification, crews do not need to be taught, etc. .. The same Korean spare parts are cheaper than German ones. Those. Initially, our project was hard to push through, hence such preferential conditions to get into this promising market. It's okay, leave it to ourselves

[Tatyana]

Hrych
Probably no one argues, but when at the expense of the client, we will build ourselves and they, too, are not bad.
---------------------------------
In this case, bad.
Russia gives another country a loan - say $ 1 billion for 10 years - in return receives a% of the loan, and not immediately + the whole amount! By the way, the Russian Federation had a similar deal with Venezuela. What is now in Venezuela? Change of government and bankruptcy of the country! Russia lost money there. The USA has tried.
In the event of an aggravated international situation, Russia is in pursuit of a% on the loan, which can be inflationized to nothing even earlier than in 10 years, risks in business in general losing their 10-year investment in one specific country. Instead of profit, we will receive a zilch of money, and at the same time we will lose specialists who, having gained professional experience, will leave after the crisis to work abroad.
We must first focus on our country - to strengthen our own domestic Russian market, and not external foreign, as partially done by the Chinese. There will be surpluses in Russia - then please. And so the Russian Federation can never return its money NEVER, etc.

[hrych]

Quote: Tatiana

And so the Russian Federation may not return its money, etc.

Well, we can also privatize foreign companies at home. The same car assembly shops of all foreign brands, for example, etc. But to penetrate a promising market is worth a lot. Such a giant island nation, by the way is not poor, has only 2 submarines, it is clear that the Asia-Pacific region will be the site of the next battles and Indonesia is an extremely promising submarine market. We would have built a new workshop for this project, a slipway, prepared a lot of specialists, people would have got a job now, this the credit would actually go to our shipbuilders, all this would go to strengthen the defense in the future. Before the transfer of the boats, the client would have paid. The situation worsened, the tranche didn’t pay, etc., the boats would be left to themselves.
The Russian Federation has time, thanks to ICBMs and its advantageous geographical position, conquered by its ancestors. And do not be sad, because it has not grown.

[Tatyana]

hrych
The situation worsened, the tranche didn’t pay, etc., the boats would be left to themselves.

This is a risk-free risk when a loan is issued by Russia to another country for the purchase of our own weapons. You first put the submarine into operation, and the loan is still for the most part and for most of its repayment period will not yet be closed. In this case, how do you really practically take away a foreign submarine of Russian production from a foreign debtor? Well, how ?!

Well, we can also privatize foreign companies at home.

Without aggravation of international relations ?! Will not work. It’s not even worth the risk!

And do not be sad, because it has not grown.

Yes, on the contrary, I say that it has not grown together - and, most likely, thank God!

[hrych]

As a rule, at the conclusion of such a major contract, the manufacturer receives conditionally half or part of the cost of the product immediately. These funds are building the product. Phased flow of funds at the construction stage is also possible. The remainder is already paid upon transfer. As far as I understand, ours offered to start building at their own expense, i.e. assuming the risks you indicated, the main one being the stupid refusal of the customer, which is almost impossible if he has already transferred the loot, even though the boat has not yet begun to cut metal. There is a difference however. In case of failure or otherwise, the guarantee that we do not fly is the product itself, which we can resell to the other side or keep it for ourselves. That’s all the salt. It is beneficial for Indonesians that they don’t have to make money right away, and pay only for the finished product. They are under the contract devoid of risks that the manufacturer assumes. Like that. This the USSR gave without looking, if only to call yourself a Marxist. Now this is not being done, and if they gave without money, they took by barter what the state has, there are wells, factories, valuable raw materials, etc.

[Tatyana]

hrych
As a rule, at the conclusion of such a large contract, the manufacturer receives conditionally half or part of the cost of the product immediately

That's exactly CONDITION! And where did the state allocate the money to the enterprise? From the state budget! Those. from our pocket with you - the Government of the Russian Federation allocated a part of the money to the enterprise to fulfill the order. But the government removed money from social programs and it is not known when it will return and whether it will return - with big business risks in this international situation!

[hrych]

Quote: Tatiana

Those. from our pocket with you

He puts it in our pocket, i.e. salaries to dockers, allies, metallurgists, etc., they will spend loot for educators, teachers, sellers, hairdressers, etc. This is how the economy works. If the boat remains for us - it will go on defense - it is worth a lot. If it goes to the customer, then the added value of the costs spent will go to the budget. The output is profit or an increase in defense capabilities. That's the way to do it.

[Tatyana]

The company to fulfill the order will receive money in debt from the state budget. The company will be a debtor to the state while it is building. All the rest

He puts it in our pocket, i.e. salary to dockers, allies, metallurgists, etc.,. This is how the economy works.

called corporate selfishness. The state took money from some industries and transferred it to the future bankrupt.

they will spend the loot to educators, teachers, sellers, hairdressers, etc.

This is a service industry, not a manufacturing economy.
How do you not understand that in this case we are dealing with the redistribution of money into a bankrupt business for the whole country ?!
PROFIT then all over the country in this case, no and never will! We will have an economic zagibalovo. Shipbuilding worked ship - suffered losses - a hole in the state budget. What's next? The country's budget did not increase, but diminished. Where does the next money come from?
Example. A family with a skinny budget. It is necessary to arrange a son for a highly paid job. To do this, parents spent on decent clothes for their son for an interview. My son was not hired. They found him another highly paid vacancy in another company, but with a different dress code. Again, the parents spent money on expensive clothes for their son. Again, the son was not accepted for work.
My son, of course, feels good - he is welcomed in friendly clothes everywhere in expensive clothes. And the family is poor.
Put a bankrupt enterprise in the place of your son, and all the people in the country in place of the family with parents. This was the case in our country in the 90s.
Energy was buzzing, while all other sectors of the N / A fell, or even completely disappeared.
The whole country should work as a single corporation, and not be fragmented into small "corporations". Those who are inside the corporation live well, and outside, people do not have the right to redistribute income, but somehow participate in them with their labor investment. These people find themselves outside the scope of state protection. The state narrows for them like shagreen skin, and, in the end, ceases to exist. Well, I hope you understand me!

[hrych]

Traitors of the USSR, such as Kathdafi, ignoring USSR debts, imposed dough in the Western economy (including, in fact, our money) in the form of bank accounts, blocks of shares, set up oil refineries there and so on. Thought it would save him, but this was the reason for his disposal , because they decided to privatize, the Russian Federation is also in business because it closed its eyes to the execution of a traitor. The same thing happened with Saddam, as we lost debt and closed our eyes to the US military, we pressed Zap. Kurnu (as powerful as 40 Siberian wells).
Now the Saudis have signed an arms supercontract with the United States, they will list the loot now, and they will receive weapons later. But we know that they will receive the maximum first batch, and then they will be "forgiven" this money for the CA project will also be completed. In fact, the Russian Federation proposed to the Indonesians, where the money-goods is stupid, to avoid such risks.

[Tatyana]

hrych
Such risks were actually avoided, and the RF proposed to the Indonesians.

The Indenoisans did not take advantage - that means they have something against us "stone in the bosom." As the saying goes, someone else's soul - the darkness!
Therefore, Russia has nothing to regret. You just need the Russian Federation to continue to bend its line in the policy of protecting Russian national interests, not to stop there and draw the right conclusions.

[hrych]

Quote: Tatiana

Not taken advantage of the Indenoisans

They considered that they already knew the product, and also felt that they had a trade surplus with the Koreans and would agree. And the Russian Federation, as a trading partner, is very far away. And access to the arms market also promised us to establish other economic ties ...
The main consumers of Indonesian exports are, as of 2010, Japan (15,9% of the total), China (9,9%), the USA (9,3%), Singapore (8,8%), the Republic of Korea ( 7%), India (6,4%), Malaysia (5,8%).
Most of the imports come from Singapore (16,1%), China (14,5%), Japan (10,2%), the USA (7,3%), Malaysia (5,8%), and the Republic of Korea (4,9, 4,8%), Thailand (XNUMX%)

[Tatyana]

hrych
They considered that they already knew the product, and also considered that they have a trade surplus with the Koreans and agree.

Yes, for Indonesia itself, this really reduces its business risks when purchasing submarines from Koreans compared to Russia. They acted correctly on the principle of "Business! And nothing but business!"

And the Russian Federation, as a trading partner, is very far away. Yes and access to the arms market also promised us to establish other economic ties ...

This is the Indonesian “pebble in the bosom” for Russia, which could also be bombarded with “kickbacks” in Indonesia, for example, the very same American partners of South Korea.

[Teberii]

This doesn’t mean that you bought it, let it be at least gold. The market dictates its rules. Relations play an important role, Korea is closer to Indonesia.

[Monster_Fat]

There are no kickbacks there. It’s just that Korea’s are stupidly cheaper and ours do boats like this, even for "export", which then, our specialists "debugging" sit on them for years to fix everything there ....

[soroKING]

have you come across? or heard somewhere?

[jjj]

Here another is more important. When building a head boat, it can be a lot of trouble, because this is the first embodiment of the ideas of designers and shipbuilders' skills in metal. This project has been worked out and run in for many years. By the way, although it’s already an old project, at one time it was quite working and not hemorrhoids in operation. But, as it turned out, Korean reincarnation did not work. This is said openly, the boat does not meet the declared characteristics.
In military affairs, if you can’t do it yourself, it’s better to buy from a real manufacturer. And then drown

[Evgeniy667b]

Tatyana,
You are absolutely right dear! Russia instead. in order to squander resources to anybody who beckons with money, it is necessary to build up your military power in metal as quickly as possible! What your opponent thinks in the dialogue-Hryballegedly having built an export product, we thereby provide another product for ourselves - a deep illusion! Yes, there were developments commissioned by a foreign client, say the Pantsir air defense system, but this is a drop in the bucket. Money goes like water in the sand, there is no use in it. This is tantamount to comparing salary and coven. Taxes and deductions to the PF are paid from the Salary, but no from the shabashka, everything diverges. It seems that there was money, but in fact it is not. So, it’s better to have a real submarine, but for yourself, and not for corrupt third countries, such as Indians