Military Review

Chasing the Luftwaffe-2. 1941 th, Willy Messerschmitt against the Soviet galaxy

480



Having analyzed the opposition of Polikarpov and Messerschmitt fighters in the first part, we proceed to the so-called “Soviet triad”, new generation aircraft that appeared at the beginning of the war and, together with the Polikarpov fighters, accepted the first strike of the Luftwaffe.

Since we are talking about aircraft operating in the 1941 year, there will be not three, but five.

Let's start with the fact that as early as 1939, the leadership of the Red Army Air Force realized the level of Soviet aircraft lagging behind the examples of fighting with Japan, and that is why a whole cohort of our aircraft designers began work on new generation aircraft.

Polikarpov Nikolay Nikolaevich
Mikoyan Artem Ivanovich
Gurevich Mikhail Iosifovich
Yakovlev Alexander Sergeevich
Lavochkin Semen Alekseevich
Gorbunov Vladimir Petrovich
Gudkov Mikhail Ivanovich

As a result, a “triad” appeared: Yak-1, MiG-1 and LaGG-3.

All three fighters have a lot in common, both purely and conceptually. It is quite characteristic that they all turned out to be much more similar to the "Messerschmitt" than the I-16. This similarity is not accidental. This is a practical rejection of the Poly-Karp model of the “speed-maneuverable” fighter embodied in the I-16.

All three aircraft were focused on speed, all are equipped with two-row water-cooled engines, all of them have elongated "sharp-nosed" fuselages with enclosed cabins, smoothly turning into garrote. The geometrical dimensions of the cars are very similar, as well as many constructive solutions, such as the landing gear cleaning scheme or the placement of gas tanks in the wing, and the water radiator under the pilot's cabin.

Unfortunately, the characteristic feature of all three fighters was the wide use of wood and plywood in them. The mass production of all-metal fighters in the right quantities was beyond the power of the USSR industry in those years. And the planes were necessary, as there was confidence in the inevitability of a future war.

In general, by the beginning of the 40s of the 20th century, the USSR was the only one in the world aviation power, which built its fighter aircraft on the basis of wood, as the main structural material. On the one hand, this simplified and reduced the cost of production, on the other hand, wood has lower specific strength and greater specific gravity than duralumin. As a result, wooden strength elements with equal strength inevitably turned out to be noticeably heavier and bulkier than duralumin ones.

Some authors of studies on this topic reproach the fact that the construction of aircraft was carried out according to the “faster, easier, cheaper” scheme. To a certain extent it is. But it was justified, because it would be unrealistic to ensure the quality of in-line production, even if it was German, American or English, in those conditions.

Too much was missing in the country. And first of all - qualified engineering personnel and workers. Alas, it is. Plus the volumes of duralumin produced were not able to satisfy the demands of the aviation industry.

Therefore, the aircraft of the new generation were wooden on 60-70%.

MiG-1

Chasing the Luftwaffe-2. 1941 th, Willy Messerschmitt against the Soviet galaxy


The prototype was the model of Polikarpov I-200, which Mikoyan and Gurevich refined and brought to mass production.

A lot has been said about this car. And mostly unflattering. Quite heavy (3 tons) aircraft with a very heavy, albeit powerful AM-35A engine (weight 830 kg). For comparison: the engine M-105P, which stood on the Yak-1 and LaGG-3, weighed 570 kg.

AM-35A was considered a high-altitude engine. Highest rated power - 1200 l. with. he gave out at altitudes of five kilometers, and the power at small and medium (to 4 km) altitudes was approximately 1100 — 1150 l. with.

It was believed that the 200 was created as a high-altitude fighter. However, there is no mention of such a target in the documents of the CB. The plane there is called a high-speed fighter, and the maximum speed is easier to achieve at high altitude, that is, where rarefied air is less resistive.

For the MiG-1, such an optimum height provided by the engine was 7500 - 8000 m, and on them he demonstrated his highest speed. On tests, the prototype was able to accelerate to 651 km / h at an altitude of 7800 meters. But, the closer to the ground, the worse its characteristics became.

Armament, too, was frankly weak. 1 × 12,7 mm BS machine gun with b / c 300 ammunition and 2 × 7,62 mm ShKAS machine gun with b / c 375 ammunition each.

All machine guns were synchronous, which did not improve combat capability. Shooting long bursts did not allow both meager ammunition and the proximity to the engine. Machine guns overheated and began to falter. To increase the ammunition did not allow the size of the engine compartment.

All were released about a hundred MiG-1. 89 machines were transferred to the flight units of the Red Army Air Force, but their service was very short.

MiG-3



In fact, this is the work on the bugs carried out with the MiG-1. Many of the shortcomings of the MiG-1 were resolved, although heavy piloting remained. A third gas tank appeared in the center section, which increased both the range and the considerable weight of the car.

Strengthened and weapons.

On the MiG-3 began to put two machine guns BC in underwing containers. To mount machine guns with ammunition directly in the wing did not allow its wooden structure with very voluminous power elements. That also did not increase the flight characteristics, the containers increased not only the mass of the car, but also its frontal resistance.


In this photo is clearly visible machine gun under the wing in the fairing.

In addition, in the first months of the war, the machine gun of the BC was not enough, and it came to the point that the underwing machine guns were removed and sent to the factory for installation on new aircraft. Pokryshkin wrote about this in “The Sky of War”. It is worth noting that until the dismantling of Pokryshkin weapons were quite enough to shoot down the Germans.

At the end of the 1941 of the year, shortly before the cessation of release, the MiG-3 weapons were nevertheless decided to be strengthened. 315 machines were built with two UBS synchronous machine guns, and 52 pieces even with two ShVAK cannons.

However, such amounts, as they say, have not done the weather.

Serial MiG-3, produced in the first half of the 1941, were a kind of compromise between more or less satisfactory flight performance and firepower.

Opponents in the face of Me-109 and Me-109F MiG-3 lost in everything. At altitudes of up to five kilometers, the MiG-3 lost both in speed and climb. According to this indicator, at low and medium altitudes, the MiG-3 was one and a half times lower than the Emil, and almost twice as far from the Friedrich. Then, when the power of the motor with the height of the "Messers" began to decline, the gap gradually reduced, but did not completely disappear until reaching a practical ceiling.

In horizontal maneuverability, the MiG-3 also lost heavily, especially the early series of cars that did not have slats. Depending on the height of the "Messerschmitt" even without deviating flaps performed turns for a few seconds faster and with a smaller radius.

Few equipment and weapons of the MiG-3 also caused a lot of complaints. The absence of the artificial horizon and gyrocompass instruments made it difficult to fly in the clouds and in the dark. The collimator sight PBP-1 was, to put it mildly, not the height of perfection. Well, machine guns placed close to the hot engine, which could not shoot in long bursts due to the risk of “burning” the barrels, did not constitute something that could be countered with the Messerschmitt weaponry of any modification.

The MiG-3 was inferior to its German opponents in almost all parameters, with the possible exception of the acceleration characteristics of the dive. At the peak, the much heavier MiG-3 picked up speed faster than the Messerschmitt, and then, due to inertia, it could make a higher and steeper slide. The generalized assessment of the fighter by combatant pilots, test assistants at the Air Force Research Institute and the aviation command as a whole was negative.

This is one of the reasons that the production of the MiG-3, having reached its peak in August 1941, then sharply declined. But the decision of the State Defense Committee about a sharp increase in the release of Il-2 attack aircraft equipped with AM-38 engines put an end to it. And these engines were manufactured by the same factory as AM-35A. In October, the production of "35-x" engines ceased in favor of "38-x", and in December, the release of the MiG-3. A total of 3278 machines were built.

Nevertheless, the MiG-3 was the most popular Soviet fighter of a new generation on the eve of the Great Patriotic War. In the first half of 1941, they were built on an 1363 instance. By June 22, in five border districts there were 917 "MiGs" (almost 22% of the total number of fighters). True, according to the reports, after two days only about 380 remained.

LaGG-3



“The Ugly Duckling,” which Lavochkin did make a swan. But about the events of 1942-43's later, but for now it is about LaGG-3.

The glider of this aircraft was almost entirely made of wood, in the most important structural elements the wood was plasticized with bakelite varnish. This material is called "delta wood".

“Delta-wood” had a much higher strength than usual wood, reluctantly burned and did not rot. But it was heavier than ordinary plywood.

Another disadvantage in the then conditions was that the chemical components of the plasticizer were not produced in the USSR, and they had to be imported. At the beginning of the war, this immediately caused great difficulties.

The armament on the first series was quite powerful, consisting of a large-caliber machine gun, the BK, which fired through the shaft of the gearbox, two synchronous machine guns, UBS, and two also synchronous ShKAS. The whole "battery" was placed under the hood. The mass of a second salvo was 2,65 kg, and by this indicator the LaGG-3 surpassed all Soviet serial fighters produced at the beginning of the war, as well as all the modifications of single-engine Messerschmitts.



Since September, 1941-th began production LaGG-3 with a motor-gun ShVAK instead of a machine gun BK. To save weight, the right-hand synchronous UBS was removed, leaving one large-caliber machine gun and two ShKAS. The weight of a second salvo dropped slightly to 2,64 kg.

But the flight performance of the LaGG-3 was, to put it mildly, not very. The heavy aircraft, which, by the way, like the Yak-1 was developed for the M-106 engine, was equipped with the M-105P.

The take-off weight of the gun LaGG-3 was equal to 3280 kg, that is, 330 kg more than the Yak-1, with the same engine in 1100 hp As a result, the plane was quite inert, slow and difficult to manage. He sluggishly reacted to the actions of the pilot, with difficulty coming out of the dive and had a tendency to break down into a corkscrew while “pulling” the handle, because of which steep turns on it were impossible. According to its flight data, the serial LaGG-3 of the sample of the second half of 1941 of the year could not be compared with the “Messerschmitt” of the F series, in many respects yielding even to the “Emil”. And he lost to the “yak” in all respects, except for firepower.

The rate of climb at the ground was only 8,5 m / s, and the maximum speed 474 km / h. At the height of 5000 m. LaGG-3 accelerated only to 549 km / h. The turn of the aircraft not equipped with slats (and on LaGG-3 they were started to be installed only from August 1942), was 24-26 seconds.

Such fighters first entered the battle in July 1941, often causing annoyance and irritation to their pilots who openly envied their colleagues on the Yak-1.

It is clear that the Yak-1 was not a “magic wand”, but the heavy and slow LaGG-3, which earned the pilots the unflattering nickname “iron”, turned out to be much worse than the “yak”.

All further история its development, up to discontinuation in 1942, was accompanied by a constant desire to reduce weight at any cost. So, starting with the 10 series, the Shkas machine guns were no longer installed on the plane, due to which the LaGG-3 lost its advantage in firepower over the yak, but it still didn’t compare with it in flight data.

On the 11 series, they abandoned their console gas tanks, sacrificing their range for the sake of ease. But it was all in vain. The “inherent” severity of the design and poor quality of production at the serial factories “ate” all the efforts of the developers.

The situation was further aggravated by the fact that, due to the cessation of imports of synthetic resins at the beginning of the war (we note that they used to come to the USSR mainly from Germany), the production of delta-wood fell sharply. Pre-war stocks quickly dried up, and from 1942, this material had to be replaced with ordinary wood. This means that the mass of the LaGG-3 glider increased even more.

The tests of one of the serial machines, armed only with a ShVAK cannon and one BS machine gun, showed the maximum speed of the entire 1942 km / h in the spring of the 539 in the spring at the Scientific Research Institute of the Air Force. For those times it was no good. Nevertheless, 1942 LaGG-2771 was released in 3 in addition to the 2463 instances built a year earlier.

Among the few positive qualities of LaGG-3, we note higher combat survivability and relatively low flammability when hit, due to the increased safety margin of the airframe and the presence of a filling gas tank with inert gas. On LaGG-3, such systems were mounted from the beginning of serial production, and they appeared on “yaks” only at the end of 1942 of the year.

In addition, already in 1941, most of the LaGG-3, in contrast to the Yak-1, was equipped with radios, and every tenth - with a transmitter, the quality of which, however, left much to be desired.

The installation of the M-105PF engine allowed only a slight increase in flight data. LaGG-3 with such a motor showed on tests the speed of 507 km / h near the ground and 566 km / h at the height of 3850 m. The take-off weight of the car with two gas tanks was 3160 kg. It became clear that in its current form, the fighter is unpromising, and with any modifications it will lose to the “yak” equipped with the same engine. In April, 1942 of the year issued an order to remove the LaGG-3 from production at the large Gorky aircraft factory number 21 and transfer this plant to the construction of the Yak-7.

Yak-1



The fighter was the first of three brethren to be tested in January 1940 of the year, and passed in subsequent modifications from beginning to end the entire war.

The Yak-1 had a mixed design, in which wood and metal were approximately equally represented. From the duralumin, only rudder and aileron frames (cladding - canvas), removable engine hoods, water radiator tunnel, wing and tail feathering, manhole covers, landing plates, as well as flaps covering the landing gear in the retracted position were made. For its time, the design of the car was very archaic.

Initially, the 26 was designed for an 1250-strong M-106 engine, but the engine builders did not manage to bring it to the required degree of reliability. Yakovlev had to install on the prototype of his fighter a less powerful, but more reliable and engine-tested M-105P engine that developed the 1110 l. with. at a height of 2000 meters and 1050 l. with. - on 4000 meters.

The same serial engine (or M-105PA of the same power) was equipped with the first serial copies of the Yak-1. Of the positive qualities of the Yak-1, which favorably distinguished it from the I-16 and Mig-3, in addition to a significant increase in flight data, it is necessary to note the good stability, lightness and ease of piloting, which made the aircraft accessible even to low-flying pilots.

Yakovlev managed to find a balance between maneuverability, stability and control, it was not without reason that before the war he specialized mainly in training and sports cars.

The YK-1 of the 1941 model of the year had a take-off weight of 2950 kg (without a radio station and equipment for night flights - about 2900 kg). Thus, even without radio communications, the aircraft turned out to be noticeably heavier than the Me-109E and F, lagging behind them in terms of power supply due to the greater weight and less powerful engine.

The speed at the height of 5000 meters was 569 km / h, on the ground no more than 450 km / h. Me-109-2 gave 575 km / h and 480 km / h, respectively.

As a result, the Yak-1 lost to the Messerschmitts in the climb rate over the entire altitude range, and to the more aerodynamic Bf 109F - also in speed, although not as fatally as the I-16. Such was the inevitable payment for simplicity and cheapness.

However, the Yak-1 turned out no worse than the German fighter, and the combat speed was also about the same.

For the first time, the Yak-1 had a lot of flaws caused by design and manufacturing defects. You can read about this (for those who like aviation history) in the book of the Y. Fighter Yak, design engineer A.T. Stepants.

There were many children's diseases, but they were gradually coped with in factories and the aircraft as a whole and its individual units became more reliable and reliable, although some defects, for example, ejection of oil from the shaft seal of the gearbox, poisoned the lives of pilots and mechanics for a long time.

But the state of the radio on the Yak-1 was at first sad. The first 1000 copies of the fighter had no radio stations at all. Only since spring 1942, the installation of radio equipment has become more or less common, and since August - mandatory.

At the same time, at the beginning, only every tenth machine had transmitters, since August 42 - every fifth, and since October - every fourth. Only receivers were placed on the rest.

The armament of the Yak-1 was similar to the Messerschmittou Me-109F - one 20-mm ShVAK motor-gun (ammunition kit - 120 shells) and two synchronous ShKAS machine guns above the engine (750 cartridges for each).

The mass of a second salvo (1,99 kg versus 1,04 in Me-109F) is due to the higher rate of fire of the Soviet weapons exceeded that of the German fighter.

By the beginning of the war, the Soviet aircraft industry launched the 425 Yak-1 fighter. 125 machines managed to arrive in the air regiments of the western border military districts, 92 of them were in combat readiness, but almost all of them were lost in the first days of the fighting.

Until the end of 1941, 856 units of the Yak-1 were built. In the autumn of the same year, its modification appeared, which received the designation Yak-7.



Yak-7 - single version of a double training fighter UTI-26. The weight and dimensions, equipment and armament of the Yak-7 was similar to that of the Yak-1, however, it was originally equipped with an M-105P engine, which, to improve the temperature regime, reduced its speed by changing the reduction from 2700 to 2350. / min

Because of this, the climb rate of the machine has noticeably deteriorated, although the other characteristics remain unchanged. The rate of climb of the Yak-7 of the 1941 model of the year was even worse than the machine gun modifications of the I-16.

On the proper competition with the Me-109F no longer talking.

The Yak-7 (aka UTI-26) was also used as a scout, as shown in the photo plane. The single rooms simply removed the second chair.

Nevertheless, it is quite possible to say that the Yak-1 was in fact the first aircraft capable of fighting the “Messers”, if not on equal footing, then not at the limit of its capabilities. Yak-1 yielded a battle both horizontally and vertically in some indicators of the "Messerschmitt", and even surpassed Me-109F in armament (power of the volley).

Subtotal. 22 June 1941, the Red Army Air Force, met with the Luftwaffe, possessing numerical superiority. German planes, being faster, lighter and more maneuverable, had not only excellent radio communications, but a ground guidance system, a more advanced, and, most importantly, tactic.

Nevertheless, to say that the Luftwaffe conquered the air, having dispersed the Red Army air force "with one hand on sleeping airfields", means to say nonsense.

And, before continuing to consider the fighters participating in the battles in the sky of World War II, we make one small retreat. And consider some points that, as it were, are not customary to cover in generally accepted history. And then we will be waiting for 1942 and 1943, the continuation of the duel “2 on 2” Yakovlev and Lavochkin against Messerschmitt and Tank.

It was then that new aircraft appeared in the arms of both countries, and the war for the sky made a new round.



Chasing the Luftwaffe. 1941 year, Polikarpov against Messerschmitt

Sources:

Shavrov V. B. The history of aircraft designs in the USSR 1938 — 1950.

Kondratyev V.V. Comparative analysis of the structures and flight data of Soviet and German fighters who took part in the Great Patriotic War.

Shunkov V.N. Luftwaffe Aviation.
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  1. tomket
    tomket 12 July 2017 07: 04
    +10
    I hope today there will be no idiotic comments, as yesterday on I-185 and Polikarpov. Although I suppose that now sofa designers personally “hit by Stalin” will run in, pour mud bucks on Yakovlev and Mikoyan, and tell how it was necessary to do everything.
    1. Nehist
      Nehist 12 July 2017 07: 14
      +11
      Well, according to Yakovlev, not everything is so simple !!! A snob was a man; according to the arrangement of devices on the control panel, combat pilots repeatedly made comments to him, he simply ignored them.
      1. tomket
        tomket 12 July 2017 07: 20
        +5
        Quote: Nehist
        Well, according to Yakovlev, not everything is so simple!

        And here is the first victim! We meet! Let’s tell us what Comrade Stalin did to you? Himself or with Lavrenty Palych? I think that you would immediately switch to the release of Su-27, a year in 35.
        1. nizhegorodec
          nizhegorodec 12 July 2017 07: 46
          +16
          Quote: tomket
          And here is the first victim! We meet!

          not, let's drool, drool to sing praises to Yakovlev, who, according to the memoirs of our veterans, knew better how to fight on his planes. Chasing the goodies?
          1. tomket
            tomket 12 July 2017 07: 54
            +4
            Quote: nizhegorodec
            not, let's drool, drool to sing praises to Yakovlev

            And why not?
            Quote: nizhegorodec
            according to the recollections of our veterans, he knew better how to fight on his planes.

            It seems to me that the aircraft designer knows better the strengths and weaknesses of his brainchild than the drill sergeant.
            1. tchoni
              tchoni 12 July 2017 08: 25
              +13
              Quote: tomket
              It seems to me that the aircraft designer knows better the strengths and weaknesses of his brainchild than the drill sergeant.

              Yeah, yeah ..... especially after the drill sergeant survived a couple of REAL battles on the brainchild of the designer in the office of the seated .... it’s more visible from the office)))))
              1. tomket
                tomket 12 July 2017 11: 41
                +2
                Quote: tchoni
                especially after the drill sergeant survived a couple of REAL battles on the brainchild of the designer in the office of the seated

                Did a couple of sorties, and so what? Master the car at the level of God? He became an extra class pilot? Can go to instructors? Or masterfully mastered all the modes?
                1. ARES623
                  ARES623 12 July 2017 22: 40
                  +10
                  Quote: tomket
                  Did a couple of sorties, and so what? Master the car at the level of God? He became an extra class pilot? Can go to instructors? Or masterfully mastered all the modes?

                  If the designer wants to make a serial fighter for taking it into service, then he simply must strive to make it convenient for a pilot of an average level and below average. Yakovlev, without a doubt, a talented designer, but at the same time he was a complex, ambitious, ambitious person, which often gave rise to conflict situations. Not averse to using his official position to promote his "brainchild". In general, among brilliant designers, fierce competition, sometimes passing norms of decency, a phenomenon rather normal than exceptional. If Lavochkin sent his aircraft under ASH-82 to the troops almost six months ago, then Sukhoi Sukhoi wiped out his entire Su-8 almost the entire war, but never reached the series. Either they didn’t give him a stand, then LII was busy, then something else. This is despite the fact that the IL-2, both in terms of flight characteristics and combat effectiveness, was far from the best ... In short, the whole galaxy of general designers was a collection of natural "wolfhounds", but at the same time brilliant, energetic, and even heroic. As for the wooden structure, not everything is transparent either. They say there was no duralumin? But under Lend-Lease we received it 290 thousand tons from the USA, 55 thousand tons from England, our production - something around 250-330 thousand tons. Given that 54606 units were built for the fighters for the war, then for them only 55 thousand tons were needed. A case is described that about 12 thousand tons of aluminum were unloaded near one of the aircraft factories and did not immediately realize that they had made a mistake with the address. Those. There was no strict control over the movement of this valuable metal. Fighters made wooden to a large extent "according to tradition," from the fact that all manufacturing technology was "sharpened" under a tree. Plus, one must keep in mind that the transfer to other technologies was failing along the “shaft”, the “shaft” was needed because there were big losses, the losses were increased by the poor qualifications of the pilots, and the lack of full-fledged radio communications. We can continue to continue the list of reasons for the backlog of our aircraft from the enemy. Still, only 20 years ago the country was in complete ruin, with an absolutely illiterate population (more than 90% were not able to read and write). In short, the start of the country was very low ... And the fact that from this start we still had wooden fighter aircraft, and the rest too - 3 five-year-olds of the continuous feat of the country, people and party-political leadership.
                  1. tomket
                    tomket 12 July 2017 23: 50
                    +1
                    Quote: ARES623
                    If the designer wants to make a serial fighter for taking it into service, then he simply must strive to make it convenient for a pilot of an average level and below average.

                    In general, Yakovlev’s aircraft were famous for their convenience and accessibility for pilots with a low level of training, many in their memoirs directly attributed this to the fact that Yakovlev had extensive experience in the design of training machines.
                    1. ARES623
                      ARES623 13 July 2017 06: 13
                      +3
                      Quote: tomket
                      In general, Yakovlev’s aircraft were famous for their convenience and accessibility for pilots with a low level of training, many in their memoirs directly attributed this to the fact that Yakovlev had extensive experience in the design of training machines.

                      I do not claim that Yakovlev made the planes too demanding on the level of quality of the pilot, but he wanted to listen to critical comments on his products from combat pilots. And Lavochkin, on the contrary, sought to communicate with them. Because Kozhedub and sat on La, and not on the Yak. Once Putin rode through the Far East in yellow viburnum, talked with truckers. And then, at a meeting with KAMAZ generals, he asked them what competitive cars were making for them. Those in response to him, they say we are doing according to GOSTs and TK, to which Putin answered (not verbatim, but in essence) - it is necessary to do so in a way that is convenient for the driver, because this is a guarantee of security for DD. I mean, sometimes designers live their own reality, and people who use these products live their own. And these realities often do not intersect. This, as they say, is a medical fact ...
                      1. tomket
                        tomket 13 July 2017 07: 30
                        +2
                        Quote: ARES623
                        Because Kozhedub and sat on La, and not on the Yak.

                        In fact, Kozhedub as he began to fight on La, and went through the whole war. I doubt that at the beginning of his flying career, we were interested in what he wants to fly on.
                      2. kugelblitz
                        kugelblitz 14 July 2017 06: 41
                        0
                        Quote: ARES623
                        but he wanted to listen to criticisms of his products from combat pilots. And Lavochkin, on the contrary, sought to communicate with them.

                        Oh, wey, what about the famous 7 control levers for engine modes and La-7 propeller pitch?
                  2. Scratchy doll
                    Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 01: 55
                    0
                    Where did they get the nonsense about the fact that 90% of the population could not read and write? Have you heard about the same parish schools?
                    1. ARES623
                      ARES623 13 July 2017 06: 02
                      +2
                      Quote: Scratchy Doll
                      Where did they get the nonsense about the fact that 90% of the population could not read and write?

                      I clarify that 75% of the illiterate population was in Russia in 1913. The figure can float from 7-12% to 37% in various provinces. There is such a book, "The Population of Russia for 100 Years. Statistical Essays." According to other sources, the literacy rate at the end of the 19th century (1888-1895) averaged 6–9%. CPS, of course, were, but the coverage of the population was very small, and the quality of education was not high. Actually, that’s why the Bolsheviks started, as they say today, a project to eradicate illiteracy. V.I. Lenin in his article “On the policy of the Ministry of Education” based on an analysis of official data for 1908, wrote: “So, 22% of schoolchildren and 4,7% of students, that is, almost, five times less ! This means that about four fifths of children and adolescents in Russia are deprived of public education !!
                      Such a wild country in which the masses of the people were so robbed in the sense of education, light and knowledge - there is not one such country in Europe except Russia. And this savagery of the masses of the people, especially the peasants, is not accidental, but inevitable with the oppression of the landowners, who seized tens and tens of millions of acres of land, and seized state power ”
                      1. Scratchy doll
                        Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 08: 03
                        0
                        Bolshevik tales. Coverage of the Christian population of the Central Jewish Church in the Russian Empire was universal, atheism in Russia was not in fashion then.
                        Peasants received land and freedom half a century before the October Revolution; Cossacks always had it.
                        The game began after the Red Terror when visiting American Trotskyists blew up churches and killed literate Russians.
                      2. FIFA from Cardiff
                        FIFA from Cardiff 26 February 2018 14: 15
                        0
                        Tipo you commie and admirers of pickled carcasses of the syphilitic Lenin in Kr. Square to catch a lie is easy and simple.
                        1 - who was the father of Lenin’s carcass, someone Ilya Nikolaevich Ulyanov
                        1869 - receives appointment to the post of inspector of public schools in the Simbirsk province.
                        1874 - Director of public schools in the Simbirsk province.
                        2 - what did this person manage in the Simbirsk province?
                        Out of 421 schools, only 89 worked, and more than a third of the teachers were not professionals, they were replaced by parish priests. Zemstvo power was demonstratively inactive. The energetic and selfless I.N. Ulyanov was able to win over the progressive circles of the province. Soon, the Simbirsk province was among the best in the field of public education. According to some data from the results of the work of Ilya Nikolaevich, the number of active public schools in the Simbirsk province exceeded 600. What kind of 6-9% are you writing to us here?

                        3 - Next, what are the costs of education in 1913?
                        I’ll answer for you more than 140 million rubles. What is 140 million rubles on specific examples.
                        148 million cost the budget of the Russian Empire the construction of 4 battleships of the type "Sevastopol"

                        Only those 4 battleships were built for 5 years from 1909 to 1914, so it turns out that the bloody tsarist regime spent on the education in 1913 the sum of the annual budget of the Russian Navy? And how much did you spend commies? So keep quiet.
                        Further, about the "robbery of the people" it’s better for you to keep silent, as many times as you commies threw your people, certainly there wasn’t any dumb king
                    2. stalkerwalker
                      stalkerwalker 13 July 2017 09: 56
                      +2
                      Quote: Scratchy Doll
                      Where did they get the nonsense about the fact that 90% of the population could not read and write?

                      Well, not so harsh ... But the situation was awful ....
                      But according to the Great Soviet Encyclopedia, from 1918 to 1941 in the USSR, 3 829 000 people received secondary education. If we discard women who have died and are unfit for military service, then among the servicemen by 22 of June 1941 there were no more than 1,5 million people with secondary education. It is undeniable that the Soviet government did a lot. For comparison: in 1913, among the rank and file of the Russian army there were only 1480 people with secondary education. The total number of literate in the army was 604 thousand people, illiterate - 302 thousand, and illiterate - 353 thousand people. I note that it was a personnel and ethnically homogeneous army. Illiterate and poorly knowledgeable Russian of foreigners in the tsarist army did not take. So a qualitative leap in literacy for the first twenty years of the Soviet regime is evident, but we still lagged behind Germany in this regard.
                      In terms of technical literacy, there was a complete failure. It got to the point that they could not get enough drivers for trucks. And tractor drivers who mastered driving a tractor in the village (as well as its maintenance) were practically the only supplier of driver mechanics to the tank units of the Red Army, in addition to graduates of tank schools. And just in time published (not without clues from above) the cry "Girls - on the tractor!" He didn’t let the situation finally fall into the abyss. At the end of June 1941, an appeal from the famous tractor driver Pasha Angelina was published in Amurskaya Pravda with an appeal to girls and women to master a tractor and a combine harvester.
                      1. Scratchy doll
                        Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 06: 03
                        0
                        The level of education and science in the Russian Empire was higher than in any other European country.
                        The number of illiterates in the Republic of Ingushetia was less than in the USSR under Brezhnev; now in the Russian Federation their number is even greater, because the percentage of “completely degenerates” is greater.
                        Mikhailo Lomonosov with his books from the northern Russian village in the Russian capital came in what year?
                      2. avaks111
                        avaks111 16 July 2017 07: 34
                        0
                        Angelina's letter in Amur truth? She, Pasha, seems to be from Starobeshevo, Donetsk Region. Did you move to the east of the country at the end of June 41?
                  3. Danila Petrenko
                    Danila Petrenko 29 September 2021 12: 21
                    0
                    Quote: ARES623
                    Quote: tomket
                    Did a couple of sorties, and so what? Master the car at the level of God? He became an extra class pilot? Can go to instructors? Or masterfully mastered all the modes?

                    If the designer wants to make a serial fighter for taking it into service, then he simply must strive to make it convenient for a pilot of an average level and below average. Yakovlev, without a doubt, a talented designer, but at the same time he was a complex, ambitious, ambitious person, which often gave rise to conflict situations. Not averse to using his official position to promote his "brainchild". In general, among brilliant designers, fierce competition, sometimes passing norms of decency, a phenomenon rather normal than exceptional. If Lavochkin sent his aircraft under ASH-82 to the troops almost six months ago, then Sukhoi Sukhoi wiped out his entire Su-8 almost the entire war, but never reached the series. Either they didn’t give him a stand, then LII was busy, then something else. This is despite the fact that the IL-2, both in terms of flight characteristics and combat effectiveness, was far from the best ... In short, the whole galaxy of general designers was a collection of natural "wolfhounds", but at the same time brilliant, energetic, and even heroic. As for the wooden structure, not everything is transparent either. They say there was no duralumin? But under Lend-Lease we received it 290 thousand tons from the USA, 55 thousand tons from England, our production - something around 250-330 thousand tons. Given that 54606 units were built for the fighters for the war, then for them only 55 thousand tons were needed. A case is described that about 12 thousand tons of aluminum were unloaded near one of the aircraft factories and did not immediately realize that they had made a mistake with the address. Those. There was no strict control over the movement of this valuable metal. Fighters made wooden to a large extent "according to tradition," from the fact that all manufacturing technology was "sharpened" under a tree. Plus, one must keep in mind that the transfer to other technologies was failing along the “shaft”, the “shaft” was needed because there were big losses, the losses were increased by the poor qualifications of the pilots, and the lack of full-fledged radio communications. We can continue to continue the list of reasons for the backlog of our aircraft from the enemy. Still, only 20 years ago the country was in complete ruin, with an absolutely illiterate population (more than 90% were not able to read and write). In short, the start of the country was very low ... And the fact that from this start we still had wooden fighter aircraft, and the rest too - 3 five-year-olds of the continuous feat of the country, people and party-political leadership.

                    Exactly
            2. dumkopff
              dumkopff 12 July 2017 08: 33
              +9
              In the future, just go straight to quoting contemporaries. If Yakovlev, Lavochkin, Mikoyan, etc were angels, geniuses, scum, mediocrity (it must be emphasized), then let it be. But their claims must be supported by evidence. Again, an attempt to deflect any criticism by appealing to the opponent’s personality (var. “Couch aircraft designers” personally affected by Stalin) is unconstructive. Generally speaking, argumentum ad hominem is a demagogic device.
            3. avt
              avt 12 July 2017 09: 30
              +9
              Quote: tomket
              It seems to me that the aircraft designer knows better the strengths and weaknesses of his brainchild than the drill sergeant.

              But don’t have to surrender - not preference. Just look and find out how Grandfather threw the pilots at the meeting on the occasion of the disasters with Tu-104 - you do not know how to control the machine. And what ultimately came to light in Coogs?
            4. yehat
              yehat 12 July 2017 13: 40
              0
              depending on what.
        2. Andrey NM
          Andrey NM 12 July 2017 08: 44
          +15
          After new flights, Fedrovi finally led me to an aircraft designer. Alexander Sergeyevich Yakovlev sat by the burning fireplace, stirring coals with a poker. Fedrovi reported to him about me, about my flights and comments. The designer listened without ceasing to wander in the fireplace. And it seemed to me that my opinions about the car were completely uninteresting for him.
          The conversation did not work out.
          ... All day my wife and I were preparing for the departure. In the evening, someone knocked on our door. I invited. The general entered the room. He offered a hand and gave his last name: Lavochkin.
          “I decided to bother,” he said, sitting down. - I am working on a plane that will be stronger than the LA-5. I would be grateful if you look at him through the eyes of a front-line soldier.
          Semyon Alekseevich for a long time asked me about air battles, about the pilots known to him in the press, and told about his creative plans. Leaving, he invited me to the factory, where the LA-7 car was preparing for testing.


          This is a quote from Pokryshkin’s book “Sky of War”. The attitude of designers to the opinion of pilots is shown.
          1. tomket
            tomket 12 July 2017 11: 42
            0
            Quote: Andrey NM
            This is a quote from Pokryshkin’s book “Sky of War”. The attitude of designers to the opinion of pilots is shown.

            Pokryshkin was also not a model of tact. This is so, by the way.
            1. Andrey NM
              Andrey NM 12 July 2017 14: 56
              +2
              Quote: tomket
              Pokryshkin was also not a model of tact. This is so, by the way.

              So what? It's about Yakovlev.
              1. tomket
                tomket 12 July 2017 19: 00
                +1
                Quote: Andrey NM
                So what? It's about Yakovlev.

                The fact that neither Yakovlev nor Pokryshkin were sweet girls from the Institute of Noble Maidens.
        3. avt
          avt 12 July 2017 09: 28
          +17
          Quote: tomket
          And here is the first victim! We meet!

          Have Yakovlev’s memoirs been read? All three lifetime editions? Well, if briefly. That tone of presentation personally endorsed by him, ranged from the first to the third edition in approximately this order - ,, I and comrade Stalin ". ,, We are with Comrade Stalin," and in the end, "I and the leaders." God didn’t offend him by self-doubt - a medical fact. bully
          1. Amurets
            Amurets 12 July 2017 10: 17
            +2
            Quote: avt
            Have Yakovlev’s memoirs been read?

            It happened. Everything is correct. And how the character of A.S. was forged Yakovleva, well written by EG Adlel in his book "Earth and Sky. Notes of the aircraft designer", who worked for a long time in the Yakovlev Design Bureau.
          2. tomket
            tomket 12 July 2017 11: 31
            +3
            Quote: avt
            Have Yakovlev’s memoirs been read? All three lifetime editions?

            I read it in seventh grade. I won’t say what edition I’m talking about, which was in the village library.
            1. stalkerwalker
              stalkerwalker 12 July 2017 11: 35
              +3
              Quote: tomket
              I read it in seventh grade.

              I'm in the sixth. "Notes aircraft designer."
              1. tomket
                tomket 12 July 2017 13: 08
                +7
                Quote: stalkerwalker
                I'm in the sixth. "Notes aircraft designer."

                It was very informative to find out at such an age that Stalin turned out to be plowing day and night, and did not drink folk blood, as the "revelators of the Soviet era" painted then.
          3. Scratchy doll
            Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 01: 57
            0
            Quote: avt
            medical fact bully .

            was he registered, or someone else?
      2. fighter angel
        fighter angel 12 July 2017 14: 54
        +3
        I dare you to notice that the arrangement of devices on the Jacob board is quite successful, in comparison with the cabins of MiGs, LaGGs. At least an altimeter with a speed indicator is the top left of the dash, it is very convenient, and most importantly - next. The look immediately falls on them. Although the instrumentation is quite ascetic. But he was more than enough.
        1. Narak-zempo
          Narak-zempo 13 July 2017 13: 23
          0
          The question does not boil down to who is better. There is still a matter of habit, the so-called "muscle memory" (in scientific terms - dynamic stereotypes). For example, you’re used to switching the keyboard layout Shift + Ctrl, and you sat down at the computer where Shift + Alt is configured, remember that Shift must be clamped first. With fast typing, focusing on the content, all the time you will press the usual combination. Annoying and slowing down, right? And if everything is the same, but in a stressful environment, when does life depend on actions?
          The optimal solution would be to standardize the fighter’s cockpit, which was not done before the end of the war.
      3. Anuar Zhanakaev
        Anuar Zhanakaev 12 July 2017 18: 32
        +2
        And others write that on the contrary that a convenient arrangement of devices
    2. Operator
      Operator 12 July 2017 10: 15
      +3
      Quote: tomket
      sofa aircraft

      Especially for the sofa designer of tomket, Yakovlev designed the Yak-1 / Yak-3 / Yak-7 / Yak-9 surrogates adapted for mass production at bicycle factories throughout the war.

      Therefore, the most effective Soviet pilots flew on La-7 and Cobra.

      Yakovlev also showed a lack of creative potential after the war, releasing the wild designs of fighters, bombers and passenger aircraft, which have now been sent to the scrap. Yakovlev Design Bureau level - training aircraft and no more.
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 12 July 2017 10: 22
        +9
        Quote: Operator
        Yakovlev also showed a lack of creative potential after the war, releasing the wild designs of fighters, bombers and passenger aircraft, which have now been sent to the scrap. Yakovlev Design Bureau level - training aircraft and no more.

        And what, KB Lavochkina blossoms and thrives? lol
        Quote: Operator
        Throughout the war, Yakovlev designed the Yak-1 / Yak-3 / Yak-7 / Yak-9 surrogates, adapted for mass production at bicycle factories.

        “Yaks” flew, and the adversary fell from the sky.
        1. Operator
          Operator 12 July 2017 10: 27
          0
          Quote: stalkerwalker
          “Yaks” flew, and the adversary fell from the sky

          Sometimes.
          1. stalkerwalker
            stalkerwalker 12 July 2017 10: 30
            +8
            Quote: Operator
            Sometimes.

            Give statistics, perhaps, what types of machines of the Red Army Air Force were most successful in battles with the Luftwaffen ... fellow
            And so all your statements are water ....
            1. Operator
              Operator 12 July 2017 10: 33
              0
              Why do you need statistics when, at point blank range, you don’t see the performance characteristics of WWII fighters posted on all the Internet?
              1. hohol95
                hohol95 12 July 2017 15: 44
                +3
                Name only one Luftwaffe pilot who fought with 4 enemy fighters and emerged from the duel as the winner! NOT knocking down 4 or 10 or 13 by REPORT, namely, having entered into the BATTLE and STANDING ALONE against superior enemy forces!
                1. Bask
                  Bask 13 July 2017 10: 03
                  +3
                  Joachim Marcel. One fought against six South African pilots. He shot down all six. Anticipating your comments, all those shot down were recognized by the British side.
                  1. hohol95
                    hohol95 13 July 2017 16: 07
                    +2
                    The handsome man shot down 6 SAS-ovsky R-40s -
                    At the age of twenty, he graduated from one of the Luftwaffe flight schools and immediately took part in the Battle of Britain, without showing, however, significant success. As a pleasant young man, he led a hectic nightlife. Sometimes young Marcel looked so tired in the morning that he was not allowed to fly that day. As a result of such nightly adventures, he was transferred to another unit, which in April 1941 was relocated to North Africa.
                    Under the leadership of a new commander who saw hidden talent in a young officer, Marcel quickly developed his abilities as a fighter pilot. In just one September 1942, 61 British aircraft were shot down. This is a record result - more than anyone else in history, including von Richthofen. June 6, 1942 in 11 minutes, shot down 6 P-40 Tomahawk fighters. On September 1, 1942, Marseille shot down 3 aircraft for 17 sorties.
                    In total, Marseille made 388 sorties, having spent a total of 482 hours and 49 minutes in the air. Of his 158 victories, 151 are in battles in North Africa - 101 P-40 Tomahawks, 30 Hurricanes, 16 Spitfires and 4 twin-engine bombers.
                    Avalier of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds No. 4 dated September 3, 1942. Winner of the Luftwaffe Honorary Cup.
                    He died on September 30, 1942 as a result of a technical malfunction of the aircraft. In connection with the engine stopping, he had to leave his fighter. Jumping out of a smoke-filled cabin, Hans-Joachim hit his chest on the vertical stabilizer of the aircraft, which led to instant death, or caused damage, the nature of which did not allow the youngest captain of the Luftwaffe to open the parachute.
                    And so with the pilots who easily drove the British and pilots from the dominions on the deserts of North Africa on the Eastern Front -
                    On May 30, 1943, in the Shlisselburg area, Major Mitrokhin destroyed two Heinkels within 15 minutes and entered the fray with the Fw-190. The P-40K was significantly inferior in speed to the German fighter, however, it had an advantage in maneuvering horizontally. An experienced German pilot made a clear mistake by accepting a bend in bends, for which he paid. The line of a heavy machine gun hit the Fokke-Wulf motor, which, breaking out, went to the ground. Hauptman Herbert Erdmann (34 victories) from the staff staffel escaped by parachute and was captured.
                    During interrogation at the headquarters of the 13th VA, Erdmann said that “the main disappointment for him was a mistake in the battle with the outdated“ kittyhawk ”, six of which he easily shot down, fighting in Africa as part of the JG27.”
                    The German pilot somewhat calmed the track record of his opponent: Major Mitrokhin participated in battles from the first days of the war, destroying 19 aircraft and another 6 in a group with his comrades.
                    MAIN TAKE FROM THE MACHINE EVERYTHING AND STILL A LITTLE MUCH ...
                    The British and Americans did not do this - ALL ONLY ON THE INSTRUCTIONS ...
                    1. Bask
                      Bask 13 July 2017 16: 20
                      0
                      Well, of course, if confirmed, then the pilots are bad. Heinz Bar successfully fought in the battle for Britain, on the Eastern Front, in Africa, in the Reich, and believe me, he was not alone. By the way, there was also a reveler.
                      1. hohol95
                        hohol95 13 July 2017 16: 53
                        0
                        Someone is a bad pilot, someone is good! I have no doubt in the abilities of German pilots, and even in their abilities to use 100% the capabilities of their own machines all the more!
                        But in many sources describing such battles, ONE against MULTIPLE, often our pilots flew in machines that were inferior in the characteristics of Me.109 and FV-190!
            2. Scratchy doll
              Scratchy doll 12 July 2017 22: 15
              +1
              Quote: stalkerwalker
              And so all your statements are water ....

              it seems more like something "than in the eyes", but also hardiness
              On yaks, pilots shot down more than on benches, they just died on them more often.
          2. WUA 518
            WUA 518 12 July 2017 10: 35
            +11
            Quote: Operator
            Sometimes.

            So, in Yaks in the Great Patriotic War 164 pilots flew down, shooting down more than 15 enemy planes, in La - 64. On average, the pilot-ace who fought in Yak won 19,6 personal victories, or 21, total (personal + group), on La these figures will be respectively 20 and 21,6. These ratios take a slightly different form for extra-class pilots who shot down more than 30 aircraft each (only personal victories were taken into account): 20 pilots shot down Yak on Yak (on average 641), 32 aces fought on La, 15 won on average (average by 592). If we take a sample of pilots with more than 39,2 victories (personal + group), then the result will be as follows: 40 pilots who finished the war on Yaks shot down 14 aircraft (on average, 611 each), 43,6 pilots who met Victory Day on La fighters, 19 aircraft were shot down (946 on average). When calculating the average values ​​for all pilots who shot down more than 49,8 aircraft, only pilots who flew the entire war exclusively on Yakovlev fighters or on Lavochkin’s planes were taken into account. In two other cases, the sample had to be expanded. The greater number of aces pilots flying on the Yaks is explained simply: the Yaks fought since 15, La - from 1941; Yakov built about 1942, La - about 37. The average values ​​shot down for all pilots almost coincide, which means that for the average ace (forgive me the reader for such a phrase as applied to a highly qualified pilot), the difference in combat effectiveness between the Yak and La was inconsequential. In reality, the superiority of Lavochkin's fighters was only realized by such masters as Kozhedub, Evstigneev. Thus, the bet on the mass and simpler Yakovlev fighter, in general, was justified.
            1. Operator
              Operator 12 July 2017 10: 40
              +6
              There was no "bet" on a mass simple fighter - there was a low level of development of non-ferrous metallurgy, aviation industry and engine building, and they were forced to dance from it.

              In the 1941-45 years, the leadership of the USSR simply had no other choice - in other words: there is no need to pass off need as virtue.
              1. stalkerwalker
                stalkerwalker 12 July 2017 10: 56
                +10
                Quote: Operator
                There was no "bet" on a mass simple fighter - there was a low level of development of non-ferrous metallurgy, aviation industry and engine building, and they were forced to dance from it.

                And where did they come from?
                Quote: Operator
                In the 1941-45 years, the leadership of the USSR simply had no other choice - in other words: there is no need to pass off need as virtue.

                The leadership of the USSR organized the training of future pilots through the Osoviahim system, a pilot training school.
                The leadership of the USSR was aware that even with accelerated industrialization of the country, it was impossible to catch up with the level of technology and culture of production — we couldn’t type drivers for trucks in the spacecraft, but we couldn’t drive drivers.
                You can pour mud on the actions of the leadership of the USSR in the prewar and war years. Comrade Khrushchev did the same thing, forever enlisting himself in the category of villains.
              2. Falcon5555
                Falcon5555 12 July 2017 17: 11
                0
                there was a low level of development of non-ferrous metallurgy, the aviation industry, and engine building, and they were forced to dance from it.

                They say that the total bomb departure before the war (probably referring to 39) was greater than the bombing of all other countries combined. Apparently it was the armada of little useful TB-3. In the first parts of this article we read about the gigantic quantities of useless "gulls". Now - about LaGG-3 - Lacquered Guaranteed Coffin. And the radio is nowhere to be found or worse. MiG-3 - you can’t shoot from a machine gun! (The first jet, EMNIP, MiG-9 or 10 - it was impossible to shoot from cannons. Apparently the creation of non-fighter fighters is part of the corporate traditions of this design bureau. laughing ) It seems that metallurgy and everything before the war was enough, but it was necessary to more rationally allocate resources.
          3. Amurets
            Amurets 12 July 2017 11: 43
            +1
            Quote: Operator
            Sometimes.

            Yeah. Koldunov: “Soviet military and statesman, Chief Marshal of Aviation of the USSR, twice Hero of the Soviet Union; during the Great Patriotic War - one of the best Soviet aces-fighters. The most effective ace out of the number of those who fought on the Yak fighters was officially shot down. Savitsky Twice Hero of the Soviet Union. 46 personally shot down. All his life he was a fan of Yakovlev fighters.
            Twice Hero of the Soviet Union Lugansk. S.D- fought both on LaGGs and on the Yaks. 37 personally shot down and 6 in the group.
          4. tomket
            tomket 12 July 2017 13: 34
            +9
            Quote: Operator
            Sometimes.

            Yak-1, Yak-7, Yak-9, Yak-3

            1. Koldunov Alexander Ivanovich = 46 + 1
            2. Vorozheykin Arseniy Vasilievich = 45 + 1
            3. Morgunov Sergey Nikolaevich = 41 + 0
            4. Pivovarov Mikhail Evdokimovich = 40 + 1
            5. Fedorov Ivan Vasilievich = 37 + 0
            6. Stepanenko Ivan Nikiforovich = 31 + 7
            7. Lugansky Sergey Danilovich = 31 + 1
            8. Merkulov Vladimir Ivanovich = 29 + 4
            9. Romanenko Ivan Ivanovich = 29 + 3
            10.Sachkov Mikhail Ivanovich = 29 + 0

            Aerocobra

            1. Rechkalov Grigory Andreevich = 53 + 3
            2. Pokryshkin Alexander Ivanovich = 40 + 0
            3. Glinka Dmitry Borisovich = 39 + 0
            4. Gulaev Nikolay Dmitrievich = 37 + 3
            5. Babak Ivan Ilyich = 35 + 5
            6. Smirnov Alexey Semenovich = 34 + 1
            7. Komelkov Mikhail Sergeevich = 33 + 7
            8. Clubs Alexander Fedorovich = 28 + 0
            9. Glinka Boris Borisovich = 27 + 2
            10. Trud Andrey Ivanovich = 24 + 1

            La Xnumx, La Xnumx

            1. Kozhedub Ivan Nikitovich = 64 + 0
            2. Evstigneev Kirill Alekseevich = 52 + 3
            3. Skomorokhov Nikolay Mikhailovich = 43 + 1
            4. Serov Vladimir Georgievich = 37 + 4
            5. Krasnov Nikolai Fedorovich = 37 + 0
            5. Popkov Vitaliy Ivanovich = 37 + 0
            6. Glinkin Sergey Grigorievich = 30 + 1
            6. Dyachkov Alexander Alekseevich = 30 + 1
            7. Kirilyuk Victor Vasilievich = 29 + 1
            8. Artamonov Nikolay Semenovich = 28 + 9
            9. Gnido Pyotr Andreevich = 28 + 5
            10.Zelenkin Mikhail Mikhailovich = 27 + 4
            This is a list of the top ten aces by type of fighter. If you count the number of victories (without group victories), then we get from Yak-358, from Aerocobra -350 and from Lavochkin -442. Total - the aces who fought on the Yaks are neatly in second place. So your [
            Quote: Operator
            Sometimes.

            is nothing more than the opinion of a degenerate and an idle bell who did not even bother to back up his words with anything.
            1. Operator
              Operator 12 July 2017 15: 16
              +2
              You are phenomenally stupid in aviation technology and absolutely do not understand the history of WWII (how many lives of pilots Jacob were paid "second place" in the list of air victories).
              1. hohol95
                hohol95 12 July 2017 15: 46
                +2
                Then why in 1944-1945 were the Germans forced to transfer fighter pilots to bomber aircraft?
                1. Operator
                  Operator 12 July 2017 15: 52
                  0
                  What is the relationship between the performance characteristics of Soviet and German fighters, the ratio of losses of Soviet and German pilots and the retraining of German bomber pilots on fighters?

                  Hint: the U.S.-British aviation wavered the Luftwaffe bully
                  1. hohol95
                    hohol95 12 July 2017 16: 02
                    +7
                    VERY FIXED - DIVINE ...
                    The Luftwaffe was so REDUCED that it ceased to defend its native sky! And why didn’t they help from the Eastern Front in the right quantities if they had a complete “CHOCOLATE” in the east? Or didn’t have time to prepare the replenishment and process oil and coal into PETROL?
                2. Bask
                  Bask 13 July 2017 10: 11
                  +2
                  They transferred them not entirely to fighters, but to modifications FW-190 F, G (bombers. Attack aircraft). With the superiority of the allies in the air, the calculation was that dropping bombs further they would be able to conduct aerial combat. But they forgot to conduct air you need to be able to fight, but no one taught beaver pilots this.
                  1. hohol95
                    hohol95 13 July 2017 16: 14
                    0
                    From this, another question arises - where did these fighter pilots go? We began to drive regiments from the Far East and Siberia for front-line training, but in 1941-1942 they were not touched!
                    1. Bask
                      Bask 13 July 2017 16: 22
                      0
                      Well, actually the Germans fought not only in the east, back in Africa, in Europe.
                      1. hohol95
                        hohol95 13 July 2017 21: 44
                        0
                        You tell me directly, my narrow eyes opened to the size of the eyes of Japanese cartoon characters good
                        So the Italians flew not only over the sands of the north of the Black Continent, but also over the expanses of the Soviet Union !!! And pilots of Flemish and Walloon blood also flew on combat on Me and Ju (even postage stamps issued for themselves loved ones)!
                        You can ENDLESSLY PUSH WATER IN STUPE - what was already not fixed!
                        Our country had plenty of problems in abundance in peacetime, and even during the wars near the borders they tried to cover the immense, catch up, overtake, etc.
              2. tomket
                tomket 12 July 2017 19: 04
                +5
                Quote: Operator
                You are phenomenally stupid in aviation technology and absolutely do not understand the history of WWII

                Well, where am I going to you, you are apparently an academician and engineer in one bottle. Operate with a mass of sources in your head, but what’s there, they themselves apparently went through the Second World War from call to call. You have inflated arrogance and arrogance, which Yakovlev apparently did not even dream of)))) Give at least one figure, otherwise you will remain a talker of female genital organs)))))
            2. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 13 July 2017 20: 47
              +1
              Sorry, your arguments are far-fetched. Otherwise, where in your glorious thirty there is a place for Amet Khan (30 personal victories and 19 in the group. Is it because he fought on the I-153, Hurricanes, aerial cobras, various modifications of the Yaks, and does not fit in your statistics?
          5. hohol95
            hohol95 12 July 2017 15: 40
            +4
            The Yak-9DD fully justified itself as a long-range fighter, when a group of 12 aircraft of this type in August 1944 under the command of Major I.I. Ovcharenko made a non-stop flight Balti Bari (Italy) 1300 km long to provide assistance People's Liberation Army of Yugoslavia. The leader was the Boston bomber, led by an experienced test pilot at the Air Force Research Institute, M.A. Nyukhtikov. This flight and subsequent work to escort S-47 transport aircraft to the territory of Yugoslavia liberated by partisans demonstrated the high operational and flying qualities of the Yak-9DD. Over the entire period of stay in Varya, there was not a single case of aircraft breakdown or refusal, although in each sortie (and there were 155 of them) I had to cross the Adriatic Sea twice, passing over a water surface of 400 to 600 km, and land on sites of limited size located among high mountains with strong side and even fair winds. Yak-9DD at altitudes up to 3000 ... 4000 m in speed and maneuver surpassed all British and American fighters based at Bari airfield - Tempest I, Spitfire IX, P-63C-1 Kingcobra, P-40 Kittyhawk ", P-47 Thunderbolt and others, which was tested practically in training air battles. Almost all American and British fighters were high-altitude and at 3000 ... 4000 m did not shine with their qualities.
            ANY QUESTIONS?
            1. Operator
              Operator 12 July 2017 15: 47
              +1
              What a frivolous pilot Alexander Pokryshkin was, choosing the “Cobra” instead of the super-super Yak-9 laughing
              1. hohol95
                hohol95 12 July 2017 16: 15
                +3
                CHOSEN PERSONALLY AT YOUR FAVORITE FOR YOURSELF, or did you simply re-equip the regiment on P-39? Pull together Rechkalov and the Glink brothers!
                Unlike most aces of the top ten, Dmitry Glinka did not go through an instructor school, but until January 1942, when he finally got to the front, there was service in the combatant unit, several hundred sorties on an I-16 fighter.
                Dmitry received baptism of fire in the Crimea, as part of the 45th fighter regiment, equipped with Yak-1 aircraft. There he made an initiative, shooting down the Ju-88.
                In heavy battles on 4 fronts (Crimean, South, North Caucasus, Transcaucasia) from January 9 to September 19, 1942, the regiment lost 30 aircraft and 12 pilots, destroying 95 enemy aircraft. Dmitry Glinka then shot down 6 enemy vehicles.
                In May he was hit and wounded. I woke up in the arms of the foot soldiers, not remembering how I was going down with a parachute. The shell shock was so serious that doctors flatly forbade him to fly. About 2 months he spent in hospitals.
                1. Operator
                  Operator 12 July 2017 16: 28
                  +1
                  In the Air Force of the Red Army, nothing was "simply" done - the "Cobras" were given into the hands of those who wished this.

                  PS What does Dmitriy Glinka have to do with your passage about the super-duper Yak-9, who allegedly plugged his Cobra into his belt? laughing
                  1. hohol95
                    hohol95 12 July 2017 16: 43
                    +1
                    And what does Pokryshkin have to do with it?
                    At the same time, and Glinka!
                    BUT YAR-9DD was sent to BARI and they flew well there!
                    1. Operator
                      Operator 12 July 2017 16: 48
                      +1
                      Deal with the DD in the name of the modification Yak-9, then continue.
                      1. hohol95
                        hohol95 12 July 2017 16: 51
                        +2
                        I then understand, but you "hot" splash less ...
                        Didn’t live in those days - and put it SOFTLY ...
                        And then back then the mind ...
              2. Alf
                Alf 12 July 2017 22: 33
                +2
                Quote: Operator
                What a frivolous pilot Alexander Pokryshkin was, choosing the “Cobra” instead of the super-super Yak-9 laughing

                And in the 41st pilots also said, I do not want Yak or LaGG or Ishaka, give the P-40 or Hurricane? What was given, on that and fought.
                1. Operator
                  Operator 12 July 2017 23: 17
                  +1
                  What does the 1941 year have to do with it - the "aircraft-savvy" hohol95 posted a raving phrase that the Yak-9DD was doing "Cobras" and "Spitfires" in the 1944 year.
                  1. tomket
                    tomket 12 July 2017 23: 25
                    +3
                    Quote: Operator
                    What does the 1941 year have to do with it - the "aircraft-savvy" hohol95 posted a raving phrase that the Yak-9DD was doing "Cobras" and "Spitfires" in the 1944 year.

                    Excuse me, but the Normandy Neman also fought on the Cobras?
                    1. Operator
                      Operator 12 July 2017 23: 50
                      +1
                      And what, "Normandy-Neman" clearly manifested itself in the battles on the Yak-3? laughing
                      1. tomket
                        tomket 13 July 2017 00: 53
                        +5
                        Quote: Operator
                        And what, "Normandy-Neman" clearly manifested itself in the battles on the Yak-3?

                        Well, you say that those who wanted fought on the "Cobra". And the French were apparently idiots, since they had chosen an unusable plane, although they were offered a choice of everything that was.
                        Quote: Operator
                        And what, "Normandy-Neman" clearly manifested itself in the battles on the Yak-3?

                        Yes, she showed herself normally ...
                    2. Cyril732017
                      Cyril732017 29 November 2017 16: 25
                      0
                      It is difficult to say how Normandy showed herself, but Pokryshkin, being a divisional commander, chose exactly La-7 for rearmament, and only the death of Klubov during the training flight forced him to refuse rearmament with the reason that the pilots were already accustomed to Cobra, its features of piloting, takeoff and landing
              3. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 13 July 2017 21: 48
                0
                What they gave, on that they flew! And someone would try to play up "I don’t want this, I want this", penal battles, even for the heroes no one canceled. There are still supply issues, not a single head of the armament service will redraw logistics because of one pilot, even if he is at least three times ace. Another thing is that for individuals, serial models could lick to perfection. So, for example, it was with Pokryshev, under whom they made an “orthopedic” aircraft at the production site at the Yakovlev Design Bureau.
            2. mysch
              mysch 12 July 2017 22: 59
              +2
              Are you kind that you seriously think that the Yak-9 is doing spitfire? where have you read such magic? Spent flights, sleeping against la-7 and Yak .. showed that if you can still wrestle with la7 with your pet, then Yak against sleep-Corpse, in principle, and la lost sleep on bends, a spitfire with different shape of wings was good at all heights! there are no chances for la-yak to sleep LBS 42-7 series there was no chance at all — he made them with a bang — it’s been tested by us in aerial training battles. But the blast attack machine is the first and the thunderbolt with the high-altitude driver accompanying the bombers — they have another specialty kittyhook that they screwed here, then they would have turned on the donkey. Among other things, one of the r-40 pilots praised, if the pilot was at the proper level, it wasn’t a bad machine, at least this machine could stand up for itself
              1. tomket
                tomket 12 July 2017 23: 28
                +2
                Quote: mysch
                there are no chances for la-yak against sleeping LBS 42-7 series there were no chances at all - sleeping them did with a bang-checked by us in air training battles

                Can you give examples of where and when these very battles took place7 Can I take a look at the report?
                Quote: mysch
                By the way, one of the pilots of the r-40 praised - with the proper level of the pilot, the car wasn’t bad - at least this machine could stand up for itself

                One may be praised, and the rest? In general, I have nothing against P-40, but they rated it at the level of and-16, no more.
                1. mysch
                  mysch 12 July 2017 23: 38
                  +1
                  look for the information yourself — you won’t find it — there’s a flight simulator — of course far from fighting, but you can understand what sleeps and la-7 is — I’m going to sleep on you powder and life on La versus SPITFAYER exactly one and a half turns, by the way, flight simulator is not a game is a simulator so understand there that you can do it easily. I’m not sleeping in vain, he lived like almost the only fighter in Britain and went through the whole war, only modifications changed.
                  but with i-16 ento you are in vain a bad dancer ... have you heard of such a miracle as i-16 with m63 engine? this is an American motor sold to us-1000 power-dynamics as on the bollide the gas sector was out of place and almost immediately the maximum speed he could fight on equal terms with both Emil and Felix almost ... not a lot just not reaching out, according to the pilot who said this, the Beast but ... there were LITTLE them! And yet, with 25 hours of flying time, well, maybe for some more, what will you do with Felix? -Only heroic death
                  1. tomket
                    tomket 13 July 2017 00: 54
                    +3
                    Quote: mysch
                    you can, I’m sleeping on the powder and you’ll live on La against the SPITFAYER exactly one and a half turns, by the way the flight simulator is not a game, it’s a simulator

                    Oh God ..... everything is clear with you ....
                    1. Kasym
                      Kasym 13 July 2017 02: 28
                      +3
                      Yes, I agree with you, Tomket, everything is clear with this.
                      I don’t understand how the Operator was going to service a single machine in the regiment - about how the "foreigners" were distributed ?! It is easier to form units with the same type of aircraft, so that it is easier with repairs, technicians, spare parts, fuel. By the way, it was so. 153, 180, and 185 The Red Banner IAPs flew on Aircobra. The minimum squadron of foreigners - otherwise I see no reason - Stalin knew how to count money and was well versed in such things. Moreover, they were taken to the rear and retrained pilots, only then they were transplanted. hi
                      1. Kasym
                        Kasym 13 July 2017 02: 49
                        +2
                        On the other hand, the Operator is right about the possibilities of industry. Yakovlev in his book "Purpose of Life" showed it well. The unification of the Yak-1 was two or three years. And in my opinion, the best was the Yak-3. hi
                      2. Scratchy doll
                        Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 03: 09
                        0
                        What is this Operator suddenly right in? There were industry opportunities, the USSR could and could do both, but was under the tacit sanctions of the plutocracy for two critical types of raw materials and natural intermediates.
                        It is impossible to turn a powerful motor without good oil, and duralumin aircraft without imported varnish quickly deteriorated even in storage hangars.
                        This is only why Soviet aircraft were inferior to German.
                        Mosquito balsa was not supplied to the USSR either.
                    2. mysch
                      mysch 13 July 2017 07: 27
                      0
                      Well, in principle, what does not suit you? here you are in the La-5-7 simulator, I’m sleeping, everything is fast there and other characteristics correspond ... The tests were carried out after the war, with those models of spitfire that were in service with the Moscow air defense and the Moscow region, and Yak and La lost their sleep in maneuverable battles at all heights, look for the information yourself .... and more
                      Where have you seen God?
                      1. Scratchy doll
                        Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 08: 06
                        0
                        Sleeps were compared with Yak during the war. At low altitudes, any Yaku-3 aircraft lost.
                  2. Cyril732017
                    Cyril732017 29 November 2017 16: 28
                    0
                    I agree, it seems that Sergei Gorelov in an interview with Artem Drabkin said that this I-16 gave out 500 km / h and quite confidently fought with Messers on the verticals until 1943
            3. Bask
              Bask 13 July 2017 10: 20
              +1
              Why did the R-47 fly 3-4 thousand meters if it was conceived as a high-altitude escort fighter? How did you get the idea that the spitfire 9 was worse than the Yak-9DD, which frankly was a log with full refueling? cited the example of a kingcobra, which hooked the very end of the war and did not participate in battles, but was also adopted by the Soviet Air Force? By the way, why if there was such a beautiful Yak-9DD?
              1. mysch
                mysch 13 July 2017 13: 32
                0
                But I answer, this is because there is little knowledge and a lot of patriotism, Pokryshkin at one time refused to take the yak-9d and did not regret it burned down in the very first battle. After the war, training and research flights were carried out immediately on the spitfire shops-yaks with the aim of to identify weaknesses. So, according to La-7 reports, I could still be awake with sleep. Yak was losing blind. The guys don’t know that after the war we also used the FV190 of the latest version D and spitfire and kingcobra. And even mine ME109, because in the event of war we couldn’t counter American aviation at heights of more than 3 thousand and higher meters. Why is it asked to fly to FV 190 when we have such wonderful as the British called us Yakrus plywood?
                1. Cyril732017
                  Cyril732017 29 November 2017 16: 33
                  0
                  After the war, our pilot cosmonaut Beregovoi flew to Kingcobra after the war, so everything is right :)
        2. Potter
          Potter 12 July 2017 18: 55
          +2
          KB Lavochkina - NGO named after Lavochkina blossoms and thrives to this day. City-forming enterprise in Khimki, creator of satellites and space stations. In space since the mid-1950s, that’s why it’s not heard much about him.
          1. Scratchy doll
            Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 02: 52
            0
            Why did you finally leave the aircraft after the La-250? It’s good that they didn’t close at all, as it was then about the Sukhoi and Myasishchev Design Bureau.
        3. DimerVladimer
          DimerVladimer 13 July 2017 16: 00
          0
          Quote: stalkerwalker
          And what, KB Lavochkina blossoms and thrives?


          Builds Martian stations and drowns them in the ocean ...
      2. Two handed
        Two handed 12 July 2017 10: 50
        +1
        well, why, on yaks there are enough aces, for example, Vorozheykin, Koldunov, Lugansky, and Kozhedub and Pokryshkin seem to have happened to fly on yaks. The relatively small accounts of the yak pilots were caused, in general, by the fact that they were well suited for maneuvering battles on the bottoms, but they lost to benches and cobras in terms of attacks in the style of bumzum and so on. As a result, they were really not the most experienced pilots who were assigned to protect the attack aircraft, but the achievement of superiority in the air, free hunting, etc. laid down on other types of fighters.
        1. Bask
          Bask 12 July 2017 12: 16
          0
          Кожедуб-Ла-5,5ф,5фн,7.Покрышкин-Миг-3,Р-39.
          1. Amurets
            Amurets 12 July 2017 13: 26
            +1
            Quote: Bask
            Кожедуб-Ла-5,5ф,5фн,7.Покрышкин-Миг-3,Р-39.

            Pokryshkin also flew on the Yaks, in 1942, before the regiment was withdrawn for retraining on the P-39 Aerocobra.
          2. mysch
            mysch 12 July 2017 23: 03
            0
            Yak-9 42 year drove-Pokryshkin-la 5 la-5 fn um um, he said that in my mine he had a simple dviglo standing .. for these engines were produced 1 to 50 probably fn against the usual ash-82 were painfully difficult but they were picky engines and their ratio to ordinary was small
        2. hohol95
          hohol95 12 July 2017 15: 48
          0
          Do you think that sergeant graduates were sent to Italian BARI in 1944?
      3. tomket
        tomket 12 July 2017 11: 33
        +3
        Quote: Operator
        surrogates Yak-1 / Yak-3 / Yak-7 / Yak-9

        It is especially interesting to happen about the Yak-3 surrogate and the Yak-9 surrogate)))) Go on, more dirt))))
        1. mysch
          mysch 12 July 2017 23: 05
          0
          you bring yak-9 and yak 9-y-right all for only one big BUT ... these planes arrived in time for the end of the war and there weren’t so many and there were a lot of fires in yak 3 ... fragility of design and etc. although the veteran used to say that the Yak 3 was a little apart, it was an extremely high-speed car, but ... by the end of the war, only when they began to land them in excellent German cars: a surrogate in the form of pilots
          1. stalkerwalker
            stalkerwalker 12 July 2017 23: 07
            +5
            Quote: mysch
            the yak 3 was like a mansion, an extremely high-speed car was but ... by the end of the war, only when they began to put them in excellent German cars, now: a surrogate in the form of pilots

            Where is the logic? Or pilots who fought in June-July 41 on I-16 and I-153 against the Mölders squadron, stand apart?
            1. mysch
              mysch 12 July 2017 23: 44
              0
              Well, there were Yaks, by the way, our Yaks at first complained, then they just got away from it because the fate of the yak was simple: someone wrote correctly here, as if this was a silt escort machine and to accompany silts is hell, as the pilot who fought on yaks said the whole war said: this the car was created to cover silt, but it was certain death ... NOBODY AND NEVER WOULD LIKE TO FLY IN YAK: on La da! on cobra-ohhh yeah! on yaks, no !!
          2. hohol95
            hohol95 12 July 2017 23: 32
            +1
            So I then separate where 1941 and Yak-1 and, where 1944, 1945 and Yak-9 / Yak-3! And I’m not yelling at the whole forum that Yaks are surrogate planes!
            And if you think about the impossibility of shooting down Spitfaire to the Yak-e, then how then our pilots shot down the Latnings in the city of NIS in 1944! Clearly, Lightning is not Spitfire ...
            1. stalkerwalker
              stalkerwalker 12 July 2017 23: 46
              +2
              Quote: hohol95
              And if you think

              I find it unnecessary to draw parallels in temporal spatial dimensions.
            2. mysch
              mysch 13 July 2017 07: 40
              0
              Well, I don’t yell that the Yaki-surrogates. A normal pilot on Yaka fought only like that. And not only the lightings were shot down. It’s either the asses who shot down 2 mustangs on the L-7 over Germany. Two blacks nailed one on the vertical from behind and the second survived ... they mixed up the shop and FV-190 And attacked him.
              1. Scratchy doll
                Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 08: 08
                0
                It was Kozhedub, they didn’t mix anything, the “allies” decided to hunt for him.
                1. mysch
                  mysch 13 July 2017 08: 29
                  0
                  well, they piled on top of him, I don’t think that 2 blacks identified the car of the leather jacket, the nigga was interrogated and he said that they mixed up the planes because it looks like a focus and they wanted to make money and he washed them
                  1. Scratchy doll
                    Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 08: 32
                    0
                    Piled on one. Intelligence and radio interception determined for them.
                    1. mysch
                      mysch 13 July 2017 13: 36
                      0
                      According to the Negro pilot, they confused la with FV. Is that a figure of world significance?
                    2. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 13 July 2017 13: 44
                      0
                      Quote: Scratchy Doll
                      Intelligence and radio interception determined for them.

                      Yeah. E-3.
                      Identified much easier
                      1. Are there 4 motors? If not.
                      2. Are there any white stars? If not
                      Fire!
                    3. Scratchy doll
                      Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 00: 22
                      0
                      This is the top Soviet ace, who later commanded the Soviet air group in Korea. Next to which on a tip from the reconnaissance Il-12 was shot down. With Soviet red stars (not North Korean).
                      Ivan Mikitovich to Americans over Berlin then twice showed his stars on his wings dodging their attacks, they still continued to shoot him.
                      1. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 14 July 2017 05: 14
                        0
                        Quote: Scratchy Doll
                        when he twice showed his stars on wings dodging their attacks

                        It was like this: we are going on a mission, two MiG-3s are attached to us. We think flying with fighters is safer. Suddenly, the incredible happens - one of the MiGs accurately shots down the commander of our squadron and pounces on my plane. Shaking the car from wing to wing, showing our identification marks. That helped…

                        Many years later, when I was studying at the General Staff Academy, I told my fellow students about this case. Three times Hero of the Soviet Union Alexander Pokryshkin studied in our group. He asked me to repeat the story.

                        Retells again.

                        “It was me,” he declared embarrassedly and upset.

                        “Are you kidding me, Sasha?”

                        “What a joke!” At the beginning of the war, I really shot down the Su-2. There was such a terrible incident with me, I didn’t know Sukhoi’s planes, because they appeared in units before the war itself, and they looked very unusual - I thought that they were a fascist ... ”

                        Another question. At what distance did the tracks of the American wing machine guns converge?
                      2. Scratchy doll
                        Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 06: 08
                        0
                        Quote: Scratchy Doll
                        This is the top Soviet ace, who later commanded the Soviet air group in Korea. Next to which on a tip from the reconnaissance Il-12 was shot down. With Soviet red stars (not North Korean).
                        Ivan Mikitovich to Americans over Berlin then twice showed his stars on his wings dodging their attacks, they still continued to shoot him.

                        what does the next turbidity have to do with it:
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Another question. At what distance did the tracks of the American wing machine guns converge?

                        ?
                      3. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 15 July 2017 14: 24
                        0
                        Quote: Scratchy Doll
                        what does the next turbidity have to do with it:

                        That is, about the fact that the Americans, in contrast, began to shoot from 600-800 meters, and the tracks converged at 400, you do not know. Therefore, repeat the nonsense about who showed what from the distance of the tram stop.
                      4. Scratchy doll
                        Scratchy doll 15 July 2017 14: 33
                        0
                        Smart people are aware that rapprochement occurs during firing, before that the aircraft is identified - and suddenly its own.
                        Do not consider yourself more professional or smarter than Kozhedub.
                      5. Scratchy doll
                        Scratchy doll 15 July 2017 14: 45
                        0
                        Pokryshkin lagged behind those Su-2s as soon as they shook his wings, the Americans did not lag behind Kozhedub.
        2. Cyril732017
          Cyril732017 29 November 2017 16: 36
          0
          So it is, it’s not dirt, it’s a fact, it’s impossible to make the car easier, removed the fuel, ammunition ... got the Yak-3
      4. A1845
        A1845 12 July 2017 15: 25
        +1
        Quote: Operator
        Therefore, the most effective Soviet pilots flew on La-7 and Cobra.
        for which the General Designer called them "shit" laughing
      5. hohol95
        hohol95 12 July 2017 15: 36
        +1
        Would you suggest collecting Mustang at a bicycle factory?
        1. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker 12 July 2017 15: 44
          +2
          Quote: hohol95
          Would you suggest collecting Mustang at a bicycle factory?

          And today we have tobacco factories ready to switch from cigarette production to cartridge cases to 7,62 caliber cartridges. laughing
          1. hohol95
            hohol95 12 July 2017 16: 04
            +2
            NOT ALL - in our region both Soviet tobacco factories have long been CLOSED !!!
            1. Alf
              Alf 12 July 2017 22: 35
              +2
              Quote: hohol95
              NOT ALL - in our region both Soviet tobacco factories have long been CLOSED !!!

              So, they will switch to the cartridge 7,62x51.
              1. hohol95
                hohol95 12 July 2017 22: 57
                0
                7,62x51 is a NATO cartridge am
                7,62x54 is ours
                1. Alf
                  Alf 13 July 2017 21: 40
                  0
                  Quote: hohol95
                  7,62x51 is a NATO cartridge am
                  7,62x54 is ours

                  So I say so. Our tobaccos are closed, and the foreign ones continue to work. They will switch to NATO-vsky.
                  1. hohol95
                    hohol95 13 July 2017 22: 19
                    0
                    And slowly, let’s go on a samosad good
        2. Operator
          Operator 12 July 2017 16: 00
          0
          The choice in favor of the production of surrogate Yaks was made from the then level of Soviet industry.

          But from this, the Yaks do not become better than Messers, PV, Lavochkins and Cobras.
      6. fighter angel
        fighter angel 12 July 2017 15: 36
        +3
        Well, completeness to you, my friend ... The Yak-3 is quite a worthy combat vehicle, with powerful weapons (motor-gun, 2-BSa), up to 3.5-4 km complete superiority over the "mass" and "foca", including in vertical maneuver, the car is very dynamic, according to the pilots, any Yak “went for gas”, in battle - a very valuable indicator, often decisive. Yes, and the “soldier plane”, the Yak-9 of later modifications, for example - the Yak-9M, Yak-9U - are quite remarkable combat vehicles, yes, the VK-107 engine required increased attention to itself, compared to the 105th, but in the regiments where the technical staff really worked with him, the results of the combat activity were impressive. And the creative potential of Yakovlev Design Bureau made it possible to create unique machines, not a single design bureau in the USSR was so "versatile" and at the same time quite effective. Sports cars are, of course, their "hobbyhorse," but besides them there were also the Yak-12, Yak-25, Yak-28, the Yak-24 helicopter, the Yak-36 vertical plane, the Yak-38 and the Yak-141, passenger Yak- 40 and Yak-42. Quite viable normal designs, not wild at all.
        1. Operator
          Operator 12 July 2017 16: 18
          +1
          Compare Yak-3 (modestly silent about Yak-9) in terms of maneuverability and armament with La-7 and answer the question why the latter was distinguished by such a small circulation of the issue compared to the first?

          PS Look at your leisure indicators of speed, rate of climb and angular speed of a turn at an altitude of three kilometers Yak-3, ME-109 and FW-190 one year of release (we won’t remember about the second volley).
          1. mysch
            mysch 13 July 2017 07: 48
            0
            What to compare Me-109 will-Emil or Gustav from G-6, 10,14 or Karl?
        2. mysch
          mysch 12 July 2017 23: 10
          +1
          dviglo 107 was never accepted, it wasn’t brought to mind ... it's all fairy tales, stories for the night. Yak-3 and it was an extremely fast car, but if I let the simulator sit on the BF K4 (C3), I’ll wash it you on a yak like a kuru — never a yak on a vertical maneuver of Karl will not get it — maybe ideally yes and yes ... but never our planes were compared in speed with German — always more — and 25-35 km per hour, but more — it's not me said-read memories and stories of pilots. Against a good pilot on carla, yak 3 is not a tenant- As soon as I cross 3200 meters I will wash you if I don’t even, then I’ll leave at a dive at a speed of under 800 and you will chase and fall apart your cardboard yak like a wet toilet paper..
          1. Scratchy doll
            Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 01: 46
            0
            In the non-simulator, 107 was produced in series ...
            1. tomket
              tomket 13 July 2017 07: 13
              +1
              Quote: Scratchy Doll
              In the non-simulator, 107 was produced in series ...

              Actually in Korea they flew on it ....
              1. mysch
                mysch 13 July 2017 07: 50
                0
                VK 107 did not go into the series — how many pilots I didn’t re-read who flew on the Yaks — everyone flew 105 dvigle-Hispanic-Suise full comfort
              2. Scratchy doll
                Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 08: 09
                +1
                In WWII, they still flew it. We must not read the pilots but the materiel.
                1. mysch
                  mysch 13 July 2017 08: 32
                  0
                  Yes, I better read the pilots and none of them asked what dviglo they all said, the usual 107 brought back in June 45 and nothing came of it like the M-71 didn’t go into a large series, they brought it to mind .m-82 fn was delivered to the factories for kits, also 1 to 40, whether it was difficult was moody and capricious, everything was mostly La-5 and 7 was delivered with the usual ASh-82. M-82FN
                  1. Scratchy doll
                    Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 08: 36
                    0
                    They didn’t finish it, just when the Germans began to finish the cores and many jet planes appeared, the Americans began to supply oil to the USSR on which the 107th could work.
                    1. mysch
                      mysch 13 July 2017 23: 18
                      0
                      they supplied oil for cobras in the midst of war-107 the engine was never finalized and it didn’t go anywhere in large series, and it didn’t stand
                      1. Scratchy doll
                        Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 00: 28
                        0
                        Cobra oil was different. 107th has been in the series since 1942. He stood on airplanes since 1944.
                2. mysch
                  mysch 14 July 2017 15: 57
                  0
                  https://iremember.ru/
                  here-read the interview of WWII pilots there about Yaki there is a lot of good and you don’t really find one pilot who would say that on his yak 107 the engine was part of an air regiment or at least a few mentions about this engine are notoriously beautiful, which came to us under a French license, which was already considered obsolete by the beginning of WWII, I’ll send you 100 bucks, no, then will you go to me? Umora-107 motor in a large series-ASH-71 did not bring to mind, and what is this motor then? 1500 horses even if it flew ... muck .... dull
                  1. Scratchy doll
                    Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 16: 13
                    0
                    If you did not find such memories there, then this is your problem.
                    105th came from the French,
                    Nobody needs your cheese.
                    1. Bask
                      Bask 14 July 2017 18: 56
                      0
                      In the book of Drabkin, there is an interview with a veteran who fought in a regiment, in which the Yak-9 arrived with a VK-107. After two cases of spontaneous combustion of engines, the cars with these engines were removed. In order not to shake the air, give an example of what cars this engine stood for and how many hours worked without breakdowns.
                    2. Scratchy doll
                      Scratchy doll 15 July 2017 02: 16
                      +1
                      In January 1943, engines with a 50-hour resource were put into mass production.

                      On production aircraft manufactured in December 1944 and later, the bulk of the defects of the experimental and first production aircraft were eliminated.


                      [quote =Bask] After two cases of spontaneous combustion of engines, machines with these engines were removed. [/ Quote]
                      Which of these two regiments, for example?
                      The Yak-9U VK-107A (32 aircraft manufactured by the N82 plant) underwent military tests for combat use in the 163 Sedletsky Red Banner IAP (commander - Lieutenant Colonel V.M. Ukhanov) 336 Kovel Red Banner Iad Z VA from October 25 to December 25, 1944.
                      The air enemy was mainly FW-190A in the liquidation area of ​​the Baltic enemy group. During the military tests, 398 sorties were carried out with a total raid of 299 hours. The number of air battles was 26, and the result was 18. Shot down: 27 FW-190A, 1 Me-109G-2. Our losses: from fighters - two planes, from anti-aircraft fire - one, non-combat - four. The ratio of combat losses in air battles: 28: 2, and in one case, a pilot on a plane damaged in battle, flying 15 km, reached his territory and, only when the plane caught fire, was saved by parachute. The number of attacks on a downed aircraft: in ten cases - 1, in three cases - 2, in three cases - 3, in one case - 4 and in one case - 6. It is indicative that out of the 18th air battles in two battles there was equality forces, in ten - the enemy had double, in one - threefold and in one - fourfold superiority of forces.

                      The Yak-9U VK-107A was especially popular among the 42 guards. IAP, 149 Red Banner IAP and other combat units. Regiment commanders and high command said: "The plane is good!" Our enemies did not forget to pay attention to him. A German pilot who got lost and landed on our territory said: “Our command has given the order: do not enter into battle with Yak-type aircraft that do not have an antenna mast”

                      What other clever words do you know other than “Drabkin” and “shake the air”?
                      gosdepovskaya mouse owes you his piece of cheese.
                      1. Bask
                        Bask 15 July 2017 18: 30
                        0
                        Take cheese for yourself, it’s impossible for me. Diet. Where are these passages from? Please indicate. Those examples that you have given do not say anything, only refute your statements. Firstly, you probably did not notice the phrase "military tests, secondly, 299 flying hours for 32 aircraft is very, very small, thirdly, in 1944, the Bf-109G-2 did not fly well, and about the 28: 2 ratio, it’s ridiculously funny.
                      2. Scratchy doll
                        Scratchy doll 16 July 2017 11: 49
                        0
                        It’s possible, you’re just at the same time.
                        It's funny - google, did not notice the word "regiment" indicating the numbers that I had so wanted with my spontaneous anonymus before which year.
            2. mysch
              mysch 13 July 2017 13: 40
              0
              Toko was not where ...
              1. Scratchy doll
                Scratchy doll 15 July 2017 02: 19
                0
                In the dreams of the Luftwaffe, if only.
      7. Anuar Zhanakaev
        Anuar Zhanakaev 12 July 2017 18: 38
        +1
        And Vorozheykin is not an effective ace for you? And the fact that after the war did not betray anything outstanding, so excuse me as they say a "burned out" person! He pulled the strap and the designer and deputy minister. He alone was not able to construct something outstanding after the war, enough designers
      8. DimerVladimer
        DimerVladimer 13 July 2017 16: 27
        +1
        Quote: Operator
        Yakovlev also demonstrated a lack of creative potential after the war, releasing wild designs of fighters, bombers and passenger aircraft


        The civilian Yak-40 was very good

        Since 1967, the Yak-40 was regularly exhibited at foreign air shows and the aircraft was able to interest foreign buyers with its characteristics. The seller was the Soviet foreign trade association Aviaexport, which received orders for the Yak-40 from airlines from Germany (an order for 14 aircraft), Italy, France and Sweden.
        But due to the protracted certification process (in many respects due to the fact that the USSR did not allow foreign specialists to inspect aircraft production), many plans were not destined to come true.

        The certificate of airworthiness of Italy and Germany was obtained in 1972 and thus Yak-40 became the first domestic aircraftwho gained the opportunity to be exploited by companies in capitalist countries.

        In addition to Western Europe, Aviaexport came up with a proposal to Boeing to jointly sell and service the Yak-40 in North America, but there was a part of US government structures against this project and it didn’t go beyond intentions ...
        Yak-40 aircraft were purchased in 19 countries, including Italy and the Federal Republic of Germany.
      9. kugelblitz
        kugelblitz 14 July 2017 06: 53
        0
        Just La-5 (7) is a surrogate alteration of the unsuccessful LAGG, which leads its pedigree from the plywood Codron. The Yak-1 in design is very close to the I-16 and the Dutch Fokkers, the disadvantage was the lack of slats, but a plus in its low mass, low wing load and, accordingly, high maneuverability.

        After the war, Lavochkin did not make a single normal serial fighter, at the same time Yakovlev released: the Yak-23, excellent in flight performance, the Yak-25 long-range interceptor, followed by the family, it was for him that Mikulin developed the first Soviet economical turbojet engines with an axial compressor, a passenger jet Yak-40.
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 14 July 2017 08: 15
          0
          In the Soviet Union, the Yak-23 was not widely used. In the years 1949-50, several fighter regiments of the North Caucasus and Volga military districts were armed with these fighters. Since July 1950, the export of the Yak-23 to the socialist countries of Eastern Europe began, and in the USSR the next year the Yak-23 began to be replaced in parts with the MiG-15. By 1953, fighters of this type remained in service, all of them were either decommissioned or transferred to the allies in the socialist camp.
          Serial production of La-1949 began in 15, Gorky Plant No. 21 built 189, and Saratov Plant No. 292 - 46 of the planned 650 fighters. Production was stopped by a decision of May 14, 1949 on the unification of the USSR Air Force fighter fleet, in connection with which only the MiG-15 was left in the series, and the La-15 and Yak-23 were discontinued.
          1. kugelblitz
            kugelblitz 14 July 2017 08: 22
            0
            But it became widespread in the internal affairs department, while the logs liked the plane to such an extent that they were not in a hurry to write off the scrap. And they were doing chaos, such as a catastrophe with a collision with a haystack.
          2. kugelblitz
            kugelblitz 14 July 2017 08: 24
            +1
            By the way, Yakovlev also had an analogue of La-15, but they preferred a more advanced version of the Yak-50, which did not pass only because of the chassis. By the way, the afterburner came from him.
        2. hohol95
          hohol95 14 July 2017 08: 18
          0
          NGO named after S. A. Lavochkin
          Aircraft and weapons [edit
          Serial piston aircraft - LaGG-1 fighters (1939), LaGG-3 (1940), La-5 (1942), La-7 (1944), La-9 (1946), La-11 ( 1947).
          Experienced piston aircraft - fighters Gu-82 (1941), K-37 (1941), Gu-1 (1943), Diskoplan-2 (1960)
          The serial jet aircraft is the La-15 fighter (1948).
          Experienced jet aircraft - Gu-WFD fighters (March 1943, draft), La-150 (1946), La-152 (1946), La-156 (1947), La-160 (1947 .), La-168 (1948), La-174TK (1948), La-176 (1948), La-190 (1951), La-200 (1949), La- 250 (1956).
          Anti-aircraft guided missiles for air defense of Moscow, anti-aircraft guided missiles V-300 and V-500 (as part of the creation of the first domestic air defense system "Berkut" (S-25) in 1950-1955).
          Air-to-air missiles G-300 (a smaller version of the V-300 missile).
          The world's first supersonic cruise missile "The Tempest" (1956).
          Space technology (Soviet period)
          Automatic interplanetary stations
          Moon program
          Martian program
          "Venus-1" - "Venus-16" (1963-1983), Venus-1 was the first apparatus launched by man, designed to study the planets. Among other measurements, she determined the parameters of the solar wind.
          Research Spacecraft Intercosmos Series
          "Phobos" No. 1 and No. 2 (study of Mars and its satellite Phobos) 1988,
          Vega (a study of Venus and Halley's comet),
          Satellite Space 1, moving on the principle of the solar sail
          Space astrophysical observatories "Granat" (1989) and "Astron" 1983
          Space technology (modernity)
          Booster blocks
          Frigate 2000 - n. at.
          Artificial Earth satellites.
          Coupon (1997)
          "Araks" (KA No. 1 - 1997, KA No. 2 - 2002)
          "Electro-L" (2011), meteorological survey from geostationary orbit.
          Spektr-R (2011) as part of the international project of the Radio Astron radio interferometer.
          Russian automatic interplanetary station Phobos-soil (2011).
          Spacecraft MKA-FKI (PN1) "Probe-PP" (2012).
          Spacecraft MKA-FKI (PN2) RELEC-Vernov (2014).
          Promising spacecraft (in production)
          The satellites of the Electro-L satellite meteorological detachment No. 2 and No. 3, as well as their development in the high elliptical orbit of the Arktika-M spacecraft.
          X-ray space observatory "Spectrum-RG"
          Spectrum-UV spacecraft for the project "World Space Observatory - Ultraviolet".
          Family of small spacecraft MKA-FKI # 2-5.
          Spacecraft for the resumption of the Russian lunar program Luna-Glob,
          Luna Resource.
          Promising spacecraft (in development)
          Support and integration of the Exomars mission on the Russian side. The mission's goal is to fly to Mars to determine the chemical characteristics of Mars, including finding traces of life on Mars.
          Design and manufacture of a satellite for the Interheliosonde mission with the aim of flying in the direction of the Sun and studying the parameters of space in its vicinity.
          Design and manufacture of satellites for the Resonance mission.
          Development of satellites in the interests of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation.
          Yakovlev did not reorient to SPACE, unlike Lavochkin!
    3. yehat
      yehat 12 July 2017 11: 01
      +1
      Yakovlev is a very ambiguous figure. You can not ignore its role in the mass of fighter aircraft and the task of a minimum level of performance characteristics, training requirements. But on the other hand, he also squeezed many promising developments, really clamped down on the production of other machines, staffing other design bureaus. The same Yakovlev did not advertise the receipt of trophies for other designers, and generally behaved like a rare goon.
      The same Yakovlev was engaged in an outspoken muhlezh, well aware of how the performance characteristics of his aircraft would fall in combat units. In general, everything was mixed in it.
      I assess his role before the war more as negative. During the war - with a small final plus.
      1. tomket
        tomket 12 July 2017 11: 37
        +1
        Quote: yehat
        The same Yakovlev was engaged in an outspoken muhlezh, well aware of how the performance characteristics of his aircraft would fall in combat units. In general, everything was mixed in it.

        And for example Polikarpov? He is given the task not to use aluminum in the construction; he uses it much more widely than others. Everyone has negative reports on the operation of the M-71 engine, everything is fine with him, peppy reports are coming, despite a number of I-185 crashes, including with the death of the pilot.
        1. yehat
          yehat 12 July 2017 11: 56
          0
          Polikarpov ended up being right about aluminum. And precisely because I managed to make a lot of plywood. It would be better instead to change the production of TB-3, which ate the lion's share of aluminum reserves without much use.
          1. tomket
            tomket 12 July 2017 13: 37
            +1
            Quote: yehat
            Polikarpov ended up being right about aluminum.

            A designer can do anything, but industry is not a fact that he can handle it.
            Quote: yehat
            It would be better instead to change the production of TB-3, which ate the lion's share of aluminum reserves without much use.

            TB-3 was made of corrugation, and for rolling sheets, slightly different equipment was required, which was occupied for Pe-2 and attack aircraft
      2. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 12 July 2017 11: 41
        +4
        Quote: yehat
        Yakovlev is a very ambiguous figure. You can not ignore its role in the mass of fighter aircraft and the task of a minimum level of performance characteristics, training requirements. But on the other hand, he also squeezed many promising developments, really clamped down on the production of other machines, staffing other design bureaus. The same Yakovlev did not advertise the receipt of trophies for other designers, and generally behaved like a rare goon.

        The rest of the Soviet aircraft designers were white and fluffy, soft and kind? How they "pushed their elbows" can be seen in the creation of La-5. And so the good grandfather A.N. Tupolev pushed the flying equipment into combat units (the first Tu-22s). And who "ate" Myasishchev, again Yakovlev?
        1. yehat
          yehat 12 July 2017 13: 53
          0
          the first Tu-22s flew, the problem was in the negative effects on the pilots that no one had foreseen.
          1. stalkerwalker
            stalkerwalker 12 July 2017 14: 00
            +2
            Quote: yehat
            the first Tu-22 flew

            Well, at least they flew ... But a full-fledged combat vehicle did not work. V.Reshetnikov's “What was - was ...” about A. Tupolev has a lot of interesting things.
      3. fighter angel
        fighter angel 12 July 2017 16: 01
        +2
        His role (Yakovleva) before the war is positive and positive !!! A.S. becoming deputy head of the commissioned order in the NKAP, dispersed all sorts of "designers" such as Silvan, Shevchenko and Nikitin, who designed all kinds of nonsense, and the country was not armed with a modern fighter. All developments were passed through a commission led by Proform B.N. Yuryev (I must say who it is ...) for future prospects. He swept away all unnecessary, saved the strength and resources of the country. Bottom line: the emergence of a new generation of combat winged vehicles.
      4. Anuar Zhanakaev
        Anuar Zhanakaev 12 July 2017 18: 45
        +2
        Who was he pinching this? Mikron and Gurevich (this was not given to them by the oldest aircraft factory "Duks")? Lavochkin with Gudkov and Gorbunkov? Didn’t Lavochkin accidentally order his former colleague not to be allowed to enter the territory of the plant, and if it would appear to poison him with dogs? And EVERYONE honestly dealt with muzhlezh! Shops by the way, for example, the ONLY one who wrote about the breakdown from the surface of the wings of percale, for example, although it broke and Shops ached and silt
  2. igordok
    igordok 12 July 2017 08: 09
    0
    Memorial sign to the first hero pilots of the 158 IAP. Among which are Zdorovtsev S.I., Kharitonov P.T., Zhukov M.P. Applied one of the first battering rams. Immediately before the 158 war, the IAP began to relearn from I-16 to Yak-1.

    After the departure of our troops, at the airport there were several emergency, decommissioned I-16, which were massively photographed by the Germans. From these photographs one could get the impression of the mass destruction of our aircraft at the beginning of the war.
  3. tchoni
    tchoni 12 July 2017 08: 10
    +4
    I’ll tell you one clever VESTCH, the current will not be offended))))
    The USSR produced as much luminium in 39-41 as Japan. But the Japanese actually did all-metal zero, and we didn’t))))
    By the volume of production of winged metal, the USSR before the war was only two and a small groves inferior to Germany. But the Germans made all their combat aircraft (ALL KARL !!!) all-metal, and we could not afford to create all-metal fighters?
    Kind of weird. As with oil and the dollar)))) (oil falls - the dollar, ..., grows. Oil grows, the dollar, ...., the same grows. Therefore, the point is not in oil, but in .....)
    But, in general, the article resembles a copy-paste of a history textbook. A bunch of common and common truths. Boredaaaaaaa ...... I won’t be surprised if it goes on like that later)))
    1. tomket
      tomket 12 July 2017 08: 17
      +6
      Quote: tchoni
      I’ll tell you one clever VESTCH, the current will not be offended))))

      I’ll tell you one clever thing ....
      Quote: tchoni
      The USSR produced as much luminium in 39-41 as Japan. But the Japanese actually did all-metal zero, and we didn’t))))

      And we did all-metal Pe-2.
      Quote: tchoni
      By the volume of production of winged metal, the USSR before the war was only two and a small groves inferior to Germany.

      And in terms of processing? And in terms of processing quality?
      I was especially touched - TOTAL TWO TIMES))))) what a trifle))))).
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 12 July 2017 08: 59
        +3
        Also, people do not think about QUALITY OF FUEL on which our planes flew!
        1. tchoni
          tchoni 12 July 2017 09: 43
          +3
          And yet, the people do not think about the quality of our Aviation Command, which completely ignored the entire Ispugian experience in battle. Which did not affect the combat training of the lutz. nor in charters.
          Once again I repeat, but, to me, it seems to me that we are advancing on the same rake, ignoring the appearance of stealthcrews in a potential adversary in the number of goods, and building training and combat manuals of our air defense and military aviation from the patterned tactics of enemy behavior (personal IMHO, established based on the materials of the open press on conducting various kinds of exercises) /
          1. yehat
            yehat 12 July 2017 11: 08
            0
            Spanish experience is reflected. The level of individual aerobatics among the best pilots has become higher. There were more pilots who were able to pilot well and-16, which was not a simple machine. But the problem was that nothing else had changed.
            1. mysch
              mysch 13 July 2017 07: 54
              0
              It changed, sent veterans to part-order bearers, so that by their example and lessons they would improve the quality of piloting youth. And in many places the fact of the appearance and also command of the regiments of veterans of Spain and Japan (khan hin-goll) and Finland was noted
      2. tchoni
        tchoni 12 July 2017 09: 28
        0
        Quote: tomket
        And we did all-metal Pe-2.

        So, leaving that luminescence that was in the country !? be afraid to use it in fighters !? and from that they are so heavy and slow-moving, you can say, oak, it turned out)))))? -)
        1. Two handed
          Two handed 12 July 2017 11: 00
          +2
          fighters are secondary to bomber aircraft; they were created either to shoot down or defend them, so of course, given the scarcity of resources, they were primarily spent on bombers and attack aircraft. Plus, clouds of resources went to engines for the ground forces and the navy.
          1. vadim dok
            vadim dok 12 July 2017 11: 41
            +1
            The quality of the aircraft was wretched. Even in 1945, after the end of hostilities, the number of aircraft losses YAK WAS NOT DECREASED, due to catastrophes - destruction of structures.
            1. mysch
              mysch 13 July 2017 07: 56
              +1
              Yakovlev made a ballerina at the end of the war — planes came off, etc., dviga overheating and fires were frequent ...
              1. Scratchy doll
                Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 08: 21
                0
                This "ballerina" is recognized as the best piston fighter of the Second World War.
                1. mysch
                  mysch 13 July 2017 08: 37
                  +1
                  Do not write nonsense, I have not heard such ratings anywhere. Nobody wanted to fly on yaks except Yak 3-9. On the Yavkakh shops, they wanted to get into the air regiments with benches on the cobras-YES on the Yaks, nobody wanted to fly because this stuff was shoved to cover attack aircraft and pawns, and this is death. the car was good for a pilot with a low level of training — ease of control — forgave mistakes — the horizon was. Here is an 18-20 second combat turn-off Gustav G-2 20-22 SEC- where did you especially see the best?
                  1. Scratchy doll
                    Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 08: 40
                    0
                    You write nonsense. I did not hear well, Yak was on the contrary, like Messer good for aces.
                    1. mysch
                      mysch 13 July 2017 12: 05
                      0
                      depending on which yak-latest version hasn’t worked out yet, what are you going to do with a wooden plane with a mass of under 2800 and a dvigl of 1200 horses? this is ideal !!!! and half of us flew on airplanes where the declared characteristics didn’t give out wheel guards, there’s either a flashlight or something else. Build it on the ground, it could accelerate to 570 and higher — yak 750-760 is at best, according to the pilot Briton never even sleeps on the verticals did not catch up with Messer! and Yak as the “best” among you, and even more so the pilot answers the question: Germans were always higher! -they have powerful engines, the power-to-weight ratio is better — they will climb above us — they will sit on us like donkeys and they will wait, they will want to strike, but you don’t if you follow him, he will leave and so constantly! what yak is the best piston aircraft you have? what are you mocking? there’s an IL-2 attack aircraft, it’s an air simulator there, all the performance characteristics are taken into account, I’ll wash you on a carla and you won’t do anything with your yak, I tell you from personal experience of the game, even if it’s a simulator they have a dive speed of under 800 yak your like a cardboard fall apart I want if the height allows me to go down and look for me, so the Germans did. What kind of German will turn horizons with you? if his dviglo is more powerful and the thrust-weight ratio is better?
                      1. Seaman77
                        Seaman77 13 July 2017 21: 42
                        +3
                        Quote: mysch
                        there’s an IL-2 attack aircraft, it’s an air simulator there, all the performance characteristics are taken into account- I’ll wash you on the carla and you and I won’t do anything with your yak, I’m telling you from personal experience of the game

                        Based on a computer game, are you making conclusions about real machines? wassat Enough already to bear this heresy. No stimulant can ever replace reality. I used them quite a lot, and professional, and not children's games
                        where are all tth taken into account
                      2. kugelblitz
                        kugelblitz 14 July 2017 07: 03
                        +1
                        Quote: mysch
                        -they have a powerful engine-power ratio is better-

                        The IRL is actually more banal, Yak was very dangerous in a horizontal maneuver, after the next modernization, the Friedrichs became so heavy that they tried to avoid such fights. It is due to the low weight and wing load. As for weapons, I advise you to smoke about the Yak-9T with 37 mm of fluff, which carried out even one well-protected 190th from one or two. And smoke the structure, the "plywood" Yak had only a wooden wing, and even then on the part of the modifications, the fuselage has a steel truss, traction from pipes or double cable wiring. It’s going to fall apart so much for you, all the more so since the wooden allies of the Allies were not going to crumble.
          2. yehat
            yehat 12 July 2017 13: 35
            0
            as a result, they were very quickly left without bombers and without fighters and without experienced pilots
            the glory of saving!
          3. tchoni
            tchoni 13 July 2017 09: 41
            0
            Fighter, my friend, is a machine for gaining superiority in the dark. And this, dear, is the first, main and most important task of any Air Force and in any conflicts))))). So without fighters in any way. Without bombers, you can still. In the end, and on the extermination you can hang something.
            1. Two handed
              Two handed 14 July 2017 05: 26
              +2
              The main objective of the air force is to support ground forces. Without bombers, no one surrendered air superiority. For the first time, military aviation appeared as reconnaissance and bomber. I’ve made fun of anything, 25-50 kg of bombs without sighting equipment on Soviet and Japanese fighter jets ended up being a very “effective” method of fighting ground forces. And as for the Germans, Goering is still scolded for ordering to hang bombs on the Messers during the Battle of England, they say they bomb them shit, and with bombs and like fighters they completely merge spitfires. By the way, the British at that time produced Hurricanes, which were also molded from wood and rags, and didn’t give anything to all-metal semi-bomber semi-fighters.
        2. tomket
          tomket 12 July 2017 14: 27
          +1
          Quote: tchoni
          So, leaving that luminescence that was in the country !?

          a) was in insufficient quantities b) there was not enough capacity to process this same aluminum. If you are given a bar of metal, how soon will you cut a full-fledged car out of it?
        3. mysch
          mysch 13 July 2017 07: 55
          0
          There was aluminum in the country, and they themselves made and suppressed it on leasing. I didn’t transfer the entire industry immediately to metal. But I ask myself the question, why didn’t they transfer before the war?
          1. Scratchy doll
            Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 15: 29
            0
            Because varnish for duralumin was not supplied by the bourgeois in the USSR even before the war.
      3. novel66
        novel66 12 July 2017 09: 41
        +7
        so that's it! all aluminum went to bombers, which in no way could be made of wood
        1. Bormanxnumx
          Bormanxnumx 12 July 2017 11: 02
          +1
          Quote: novel xnumx
          so that's it! all aluminum went to bombers, which in no way could be made of wood

          De Havilland Mosquito looks at you bewildered wassat
          1. novel66
            novel66 12 July 2017 11: 21
            +3
            as? was it collected in the USSR?
            1. Amurets
              Amurets 12 July 2017 11: 51
              +1
              Quote: novel xnumx
              as? was it collected in the USSR?

              From wood, but in England.
              1. mark1
                mark1 12 July 2017 13: 34
                +2
                Quote: Amurets
                From wood, but in England.

                Tell me, dear, where did balsa grow in the USSR?
                1. tomket
                  tomket 12 July 2017 14: 29
                  +3
                  Quote: mark1
                  Tell me, dear, where did balsa grow in the USSR?

                  Apparently Stalin was to blame, did not plant forests, or did not change the climate to a more suitable balsa for growing)))))
                  1. stalkerwalker
                    stalkerwalker 12 July 2017 14: 31
                    +2
                    Quote: tomket
                    Apparently Stalin is to blame

                    Shaw. again?
                    belay
                    1. tomket
                      tomket 12 July 2017 14: 41
                      +4
                      Quote: stalkerwalker
                      Shaw. again?

                      The opinion began to arise that Prince Vladimir should be blamed for everything, and some of the most courageous in their views suggested blaming Rurik))) Well, the very advanced ones blamed the monk Nestor for not indicating anyone who was earlier than Rurik))))
                      1. stalkerwalker
                        stalkerwalker 12 July 2017 14: 46
                        +3
                        laughing laughing laughing
                        No comments!!!
                        good
          2. A1845
            A1845 12 July 2017 15: 20
            +1
            Quote: BORMAN82
            M
            was an interesting airplane, but it never occurred to anyone to make Lancaster from wood
            1. Bormanxnumx
              Bormanxnumx 12 July 2017 19: 34
              0
              Quote: A1845
              was an interesting airplane, but it never occurred to anyone to make Lancaster from wood

              And let's not “juggle”, since the most popular “bombing” consumer of luminium))) in the Soviet Union was not Pe-8 (theoretically analogous to Lancaster), but more modest Pe-2 (which + can be compared to Mosquito). By the way, balsa in England clearly does not belong to "domestic" plants, and "Komiriks" were successfully collected ....
              1. hohol95
                hohol95 12 July 2017 20: 09
                +1
                Some people thought and continues to believe that the Mosquito design almost saved the aviation industry from a shortage of metal, and the plane itself was supposedly absolutely safe from any difficulties with the supply of material. Of course, such considerations cannot be taken seriously: first, British industry could well provide duralumin and De Haviland; and secondly, the tree for Mosquito had to be taken from the tropics - in England, balsa does not grow!
                The natural range of the balsa tree extends from southern Mexico, capturing Central America and south of Brazil, Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador and Venezuela. The breed is also found in India and Indonesia.
                Balsa is the lightest and softest wood that has unusually high buoyancy and also provides very effective thermal and sound insulation.
                Wood easily accepts nails and screws, but because of its softness, it does not hold them well, therefore gluing is the most optimal method of bonding.
                1. A1845
                  A1845 13 July 2017 10: 49
                  0
                  Quote: hohol95
                  Of course, such considerations cannot be taken seriously.
                  undoubtedly so, especially since the manufacturing technology is incomparably more complicated than from duralumin sheets, durability, survivability, etc.
          3. Alf
            Alf 12 July 2017 22: 42
            +2
            Quote: BORMAN82
            De Havilland Mosquito looks at you bewildered

            Mossi is a wonderful aircraft, but in the structure of the Royal Air Force it was proactive, and the British made the main bet on ALL-METAL strategists such as Lancaster, Stirling, Halifax. And if Mossi did not, then the Royal Air Force would have done without him.
            1. A1845
              A1845 13 July 2017 10: 51
              0
              Quote: Alf
              he was proactive
              this is always forgotten wink
              all the more without defensive weapons
        2. Scratchy doll
          Scratchy doll 12 July 2017 22: 26
          0
          Quote: novel xnumx
          bombers that couldn’t be made of wood

          Wooden bombers are easier to do on the contrary, thrust-to-weight ratio is not so important there, which means the weight of the airplane, excuse me even the record wooden "Spruce Goose" by Howard Hughes refutes.
          1. novel66
            novel66 13 July 2017 08: 54
            +4
            apparently. American boobies did not know this; they were riveted from aluminum, and no matter what b-29 would have turned out of sequoia - a sight for sore eyes!
            1. Scratchy doll
              Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 09: 05
              0
              Pans are made of aluminum. Duncees do not know that their champion aircraft is made of wood.
              1. novel66
                novel66 13 July 2017 09: 20
                +3
                than empty, learn at least what IL-4 was made of
                1. Scratchy doll
                  Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 09: 36
                  0
                  See what the Hughes H-4 Hercules is made of and don't do it yourself.
                  Also take an interest in the thickness of the skin and the material of IL-4 and Me-109.
                  1. novel66
                    novel66 13 July 2017 09: 41
                    +1
                    apparently, civilization has come to a standstill - they stopped making wooden planes. il - 4 note on one engine it couldn’t fly normally anymore - God forbid pulling over the front line, and even if the wooden one (well, the construction is harder. fact!) would probably not have flown
                    1. Scratchy doll
                      Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 09: 48
                      0
                      Already seen what the Hughes H-4 Hercules with eight is made of?
                      ease of construction is more important for small single-engine fighters.
                      1. novel66
                        novel66 13 July 2017 09: 54
                        +1
                        you yourself write - 8 engines! 8 Karl! nothing more than a flight of the author’s imagination, honor and praise to him but in large series for the front?
                    2. Scratchy doll
                      Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 10: 27
                      0
                      It was to be built in large series for the urgent transfer of troops across the Atlantic before they began to deter nuclear weapons. I read that he is even now a record and made of spruce? The B-52 also has 8 engines each, so what? Also read what a large-scale factor is, and how much the fighter differs from the bomber in overload.
            2. A1845
              A1845 13 July 2017 10: 52
              0
              Quote: novel xnumx
              American boobies did not know this, riveted from aluminum
              where are they laughing spanked 30 fighters a day at one factory and did not know that it was too difficult
              1. novel66
                novel66 13 July 2017 10: 56
                +1
                yes, they would circular. Yes, more plywood - the charm of what kind of plane would go lol
                1. A1845
                  A1845 13 July 2017 13: 00
                  0
                  Quote: novel xnumx
                  they would be circular. yes more plywood

                  the smell of carpentry casein glue alone is worth it! laughing
                  1. novel66
                    novel66 13 July 2017 15: 28
                    +1
                    and when the plane polished and varnished is generally a beauty, such in my opinion (I could be wrong) was the first instance of lugg-1, it was also called the piano
                    1. A1845
                      A1845 13 July 2017 16: 14
                      0
                      Quote: novel xnumx
                      such in my opinion (I can be mistaken) was the first instance

                      yes, it seems to be cherry color, och beautiful winked and under this case, the Gorbunov-Gudkov mobilized a furniture factory
                      then they started riveting anywhere, without piano varnish, the speed immediately fell noticeably ..
                    2. Scratchy doll
                      Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 04: 09
                      0
                      Polished varnished was the "racially faithful" P-51. In the USA, Rockefellers from Brazil supplied varnish for duralumin. To Britain and Germany through neutral countries too. It was not supplied only to the USSR.
                      The Germans and British camouflaged their planes on top of this varnish with paint.
        3. tchoni
          tchoni 13 July 2017 10: 59
          +1
          Quote: novel xnumx
          here it is! all aluminum went to bombers, which in no way could be made of wood
          More ... Reply

          And what? from a tree bombers to do was down? Pomnitsow Englishmen and bombers and torpedo bombers obtained from the wood. And they with their help, even drowned the battleship)))
          1. novel66
            novel66 13 July 2017 15: 31
            +2
            it is possible to cast it from reinforced concrete, only the engines will have to be installed in order to fly at least somehow, but in the USSR there were problems with the engines and it was not worth overloading the structure.
            1. Scratchy doll
              Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 16: 45
              0
              Why, then, fighters overtaxed?
              Or is wood lighter than metal because it does not sink in water?
              1. novel66
                novel66 13 July 2017 18: 58
                +1
                Well, there was not enough aluminum for everything !!! Priorities were built like this. wooden structure is heavier. you bore after all, all of you Canadians are
                1. Scratchy doll
                  Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 01: 57
                  +1
                  So prioritized for the foolish. Thick alkled could be used in large bombers, it is impossible to cover fighters. Make a paper airplane out of sheet metal and it will not fly with you.
                  Without a protective varnish, duralumin rusts like this.
                2. Scratchy doll
                  Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 04: 28
                  0
                  Or gullible. Even airships were made of wood lighter than air. German Schütte Lanza. The larger the frame-truss structure, the easier it is to cut it from wood. In large bombers, in addition to a metal engine, only an extended wing spar was desirable.
          2. Spitfire
            Spitfire 11 January 2018 09: 30
            0
            Quote: tchoni
            Quote: novel xnumx
            here it is! all aluminum went to bombers, which in no way could be made of wood
            More ... Reply

            And what? from a tree bombers to do was down? Pomnitsow Englishmen and bombers and torpedo bombers obtained from the wood. And they with their help, even drowned the battleship)))


            Swordfish?
            The truss fuselage of the elements of the longitudinal set (duralumin pipes) and transverse (prefabricated duralumin frames connected by struts). The front part is covered with removable metal panels, and the back is fabric. The keel, stabilizer and rudders had a metal frame and linen sheathing. The set of consoles consisted of two spars and 24 (on the upper wing) or 20 (on the lower) ribs. Sheathing planes and ailerons - the canvas, with the exception of the center section of the upper wing, covered with duralumin.
      4. vadim dok
        vadim dok 12 July 2017 11: 35
        +2
        The amount of duralumin delivered under Lend-Lease was almost equal to or greater than that produced in the USSR.
        1. Scratchy doll
          Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 09: 08
          0
          The amount of protective primer varnish to it was only a few cans. Painting it with ordinary metal paint is a futile task.
    2. sivuch
      sivuch 12 July 2017 10: 01
      +4
      And where did these luminous factories end up in 41-42?
      By the way, in almost all countries, even the United States, there have been attempts to create cheap war machines from improvised materials
      1. kapitan281271
        kapitan281271 12 July 2017 14: 52
        0
        And where is the aluminum diesel for panthers and tigers, and where is Paton’s submachine gun "horror what Germans were backward" .................. in fact, somewhere we are somewhere !!!!!!!!!!
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 12 July 2017 20: 32
          0
          Quote: kapitan281271
          And where is the aluminum diesel for panthers and tigers

          And here, by the way, yes. The Germans made tank engines iron, and aircraft made aluminum, and here they made wooden aircraft (on a steel frame, except LaGG), and tank engines made aluminum. How is it necessary?
          1. stalkerwalker
            stalkerwalker 12 July 2017 22: 52
            +3
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            And how is it necessary?

            See the answer in 1945.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 12 July 2017 23: 36
              0
              Quote: stalkerwalker
              See the answer in 1945.

              And what was special there in the 45th? A conference that confirmed that every single decision made in the USSR was correct? Starting from which year, right from the 17th?
              1. stalkerwalker
                stalkerwalker 12 July 2017 23: 43
                +2
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                Starting from which year, right from 17?

                Do not trifle. Start with Rurik ...
                lol
    3. Rakti-kali
      Rakti-kali 12 July 2017 13: 35
      +2
      Quote: tchoni
      The USSR produced as much luminium in 39-41 as Japan. But the Japanese actually did all-metal zero, and we didn’t))))

      And how much aluminum did Japan need to produce tank engines? And when did the pilot's armor protection appear on the all-metal Raiden? And the protected gas tanks?
    4. Alf
      Alf 12 July 2017 22: 39
      0
      Quote: tchoni
      By the volume of production of winged metal, the USSR before the war was only two and a small groves inferior to Germany. But the Germans made all their combat aircraft (ALL KARL !!!) all-metal, and we could not afford to create all-metal fighters?

      And how much aluminum did the Germans put into the production of crankcases for diesel engines for tanks?
      1. mysch
        mysch 12 July 2017 23: 22
        0
        why do they need diesel engines? - according to statistics from the time of the war, our specialists came to the conclusion, by the way, the information from the article from this site burned T-34 diesel more often than German gasoline, just as willingly and quickly came to the conclusion that more often
    5. mysch
      mysch 12 July 2017 23: 20
      0
      the industry was backward, there I read about super varnish for aluminum, but it wasn’t pancake, we bought it somewhere ... I don’t remember exactly one of the reasons, and even transfer all the plants from wood to aluminum ... where all the carpenters then put it (((strange of course, the Japanese did duralumin on Ki-s84 cars, which was worth it, it’s lucky that the Germans didn’t have such a car .. would they give us about them .... 2 thousand with a hook dviglo .. methanol injection into cylinders ... diving up to 800 and incredibly fabulous climb - just phenomenal ... there were few of them and the guys were young to create this machine in 13 months !!!
  4. hohol95
    hohol95 12 July 2017 08: 19
    +3
    article by V. Dymich
    Cheerful hunt in the East
    On June 22, 1941, at one thirty minutes in the morning, Staffelkapitan 5 / JG54 Hubert Mutterich with a mug of steaming coffee in one hand and a cigarette in the other approached the Messerschmitt of his deputy Joachim Wandel. “Don't be sad,“ Dwarf, ”he said to a thoughtful comrade. “The hunt will be fun!”
    Nevertheless, exactly one month after the outbreak of the war, the commander of the Grunherz Major Trautloft signed an order for the squadron, which, in particular, said: “One cannot welcome the enthusiasm of some of our comrades for maneuvering battles with“ rats (I-16) ”and“ Ivans (MiG-3). ” Knightly fights are not for the East. We must just win. ”
    This order did not appear from scratch: by July 22, 37 pilots of 112 squadrons were killed or missing, and there was no tendency to reduce losses.
    Staffelcapitan 5 / JG54 Hubert "Hubs" Mutterich undoubtedly expressed the opinion of the squadron leadership, wittily stating: “Do not drive the“ rat ”into a corner, because in this case it only has one thing left - to cling to your throat!”
  5. AKC
    AKC 12 July 2017 09: 31
    +6
    When you read articles. then there is a feeling that the Messer is an uber weapon that has no shortcomings and which is perfect !!!! About 5 I-000 and I-16, 153 “MIGs”, 917 Yak-125s against thousands with a small Me-1! And these are only fighters !!! you need to remember not only German super messers, but also destroyers of the German allies, of course they don’t have such weapons removed, but trained pilots, radio communications, and mastered planes. What are the reasons for this defeat of Soviet aviation? I understand that the reasons are as follows: The planes are old, the pilots are inexperienced, there is no radio communication, the weapons are weak, and the new planes are imperfect, and not mastered !!!! ALL. And Soviet aviation is disappearing. Dissolves !!!
    Here in the article are the numbers for the MiGs. By June 22, in five border districts there were 917 “Mig” (almost 22% of the total number of fighters). True, according to the reports, after two days only 380 remained.
    Where did the 537 aircraft go ????
    Probably due to undeveloped, lack of radio communications, weak weapons were lost. I wonder how many of them were shot down and thrown !!!
    And I think that the reason for this defeat both in the Air Force and in other troops is simple !!! And it does not consist in the fact that some type of equipment in some millimeters, kilometers exceeded the other. And it consists in the fact that for the most part people for the most part did not want to fight. Therefore, they escaped, leaving serviceable equipment, or surrendered (the number of prisoners in this period is astounding). But when the Germans showed what the new order is, and the Soviet people began to fight not for the CPSU and Stalin, but simply for their future and their children!
    The author mentions the lack of engineers !! And where did the qualified engineering staff go? Maybe Comrade Stalin plagued them? and in their place he put the level of Mikoyan (take an interest in his education) or Lavochkin (take an interest in how many planes he designed before the LAGG), Probably the concept of blat in the Union was worse than now, but how to explain the appearance of such aircraft constructors.
    When the author writes about the number of Soviet combat-ready aircraft, then for justice it is necessary to write about the number of enemy combat-ready aircraft !!
    But in general. all that is written in the article. It can be applied to any aircraft, and also prove its backwardness and non-compliance with the requirements of the time. For example, the FV-190 was bad at the turn, it was gaining height poorly. Only a good dive !!! Thunderbolt was good at altitude, and near the ground an iron !! Etc.
    Now I will ask the urapatriots who like to belittle the contribution of the Allies to the fight against the Nazis !! What would the Luftwaffe do with the Red Army Air Force if it were not for the struggle with the Allies? If those were German planes. who were involved in the west, were thrown to the east and engaged closely with Soviet aircraft ???
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 12 July 2017 11: 01
      +7
      Quote: AKC
      Here in the article are the numbers for the MiGs. By June 22, in five border districts there were 917 “Mig” (almost 22% of the total number of fighters). True, according to the reports, after two days only 380 remained.
      Where did the 537 aircraft go ???? Probably due to undeveloped, lack of radio communications, weak weapons were lost. I wonder how many of them were shot down and thrown !!!
      And I think that the reason for this defeat both in the Air Force and in other troops is simple !!! And it does not consist in the fact that some type of equipment in some millimeters, kilometers exceeded the other. And it consists in the fact that for the most part people for the most part did not want to fight.

      Everything is much simpler - most of the MiG-3 simply did not have combat-ready crews. The equipment was supplied in part, the equipment was not mastered by the pilots. Because according to the plan, the retraining was supposed to be completed in the fall.
      As of June 01.06.1941, 77, 1 crews were trained on the 196 MiG-845. At 3 MiG-322 - only XNUMX.
      Quote: AKC
      The author mentions the lack of engineers !! And where did the qualified engineering staff go?

      And were they? Where from? Really from tsarist Russia with its aircraft industry, which built aircraft with imported or captured aircraft engines? smile
      Where to get their qualified engineering personnel in a country where the elimination of illiteracy continued until the outbreak of war? Where in the early 30s, 80-90% of cadets of military schools had only primary education (and these are not just people from the street - these are specially selected personnel)? Where did Junkers have to be attracted to create at least some aviation industry base?
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 12 July 2017 20: 35
        +2
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Where to get their qualified engineering personnel in a country where the elimination of illiteracy continued until the outbreak of war? Where in the early 30s, 80-90% of cadets of military schools had only primary education (and these are not just people from the street - these are specially selected personnel)? Where did Junkers have to be attracted to create at least some aviation industry base?

        How is Japan doing with all this? I emphasize that I am not talking about the state of industry, but solely about assessing the design of the aircraft.
        By the way, what about the elimination of illiteracy in Finland? How did this affect the actions of Finnish aviation?
      2. Scratchy doll
        Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 02: 16
        +1
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Where to get their qualified engineering personnel in a country where the elimination of illiteracy continued until the outbreak of war? Where in the early 30s, 80-90% of cadets of military schools had only primary education (and these are not just people from the street - these are specially selected personnel)? Where did Junkers have to be attracted to create at least some aviation industry base?

        Most of the Russian aviation industry, represented by intelligentsia in the Red Terror (when the literate Bolsheviks were killing), was lucky to escape to emigration. Sikorsky and Kartveli for example.
        the presence of corns on their hands was no guarantee of surviving, they destroyed everything to the ground, and then ... the Tukhachevsky ran along a familiar path to copy someone else's to Junkers.
    2. faiver
      faiver 12 July 2017 11: 02
      +6
      Write the sweetest nonsense - “for the majority of people, for the most part, they did not want to fight”? those. for the power that taught them to read and write? gave a job? And so on and so forth? I do not say that power was ideal, but people went to war for their country.
      "where did the qualified engineering staff go?" - Yes, they haven’t gone anywhere, they have arisen, studied and gained experience, it is impossible in 15 years to grow a superengineering school with a high level of technical culture, even buying modern technologies ...
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 12 July 2017 11: 52
        +6
        Quote: faiver
        Delirium write dear

        "... How many of them fell into this abyss ...", read by the Solonins, Necrits with rezunami, and then appearing here with "invaluable information."
      2. mysch
        mysch 13 July 2017 08: 15
        +1
        and not hotels — they left in large numbers — they ran away — there was no motivation — she later began to appear — as people began to find out what the Germans were doing in the territories
        1. faiver
          faiver 13 July 2017 09: 43
          0
          would you go to the cutter to the portal ...
          1. mysch
            mysch 13 July 2017 12: 13
            +1
            And you in the madhouse, from where in the occupied territories when they were liberated took almost half a million draftees, who were taken to the army for the second time? what have they been doing there since they were 41? These are former Red Army soldiers who were called up again after the liberation of the territories! what-all directly unconscious to the women on the stove hit? -and this off.data! I suppose there were more! the Germans transferred in 2005 cases of prisoners of war with fingerprints and the like for 5 million people !!!! not everyone says it !!! Do you even recognize the numbers?
            1. faiver
              faiver 13 July 2017 12: 53
              0
              Only after you....
    3. kapitan281271
      kapitan281271 12 July 2017 14: 46
      +2
      In a previous article, he recalled the memories of a certain Albert Kösselring who writes practically about the Luftwaffe disaster in the first months of the eastern company, and that the losses were not commensurate with more than the entire company in the west, including the battle for Britain, so that you don’t have to have as much ash on your head
      1. faiver
        faiver 12 July 2017 15: 53
        +1
        during the first week of the war, the Germans lost about 450 aircraft, and from 22 June to 31 December 41, the Germans lost combat losses on the eastern front - 3827 aircraft, this is more than 80% of Luftwaffe combat losses ...
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 12 July 2017 20: 29
          0
          Quote: faiver
          total from June 22 to December 31, 41 years, the military losses of the Germans on the eastern front - 3827 aircraft

          Such a figure has not yet been seen. Even Glavpur (Soviet aviation in the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945 in numbers) claimed 4200 German cars, but commonAnd not fighting losses.
          1. faiver
            faiver 12 July 2017 20: 32
            0
            this is the data of the Germans and it was combat losses ...
            http://maxpark.com/community/2039/content/2119655
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 12 July 2017 21: 13
              +1
              Quote: faiver
              this is the data of the Germans and it was combat losses ...

              And is the comrade Starley bpv who wrote this absurdity a German? By the way, are you sure that he understands the word "combat"?

              Are you also banned in the calculator? Are the weekly summaries for the 41st year listed on your link able to be folded?
          2. mysch
            mysch 12 July 2017 23: 25
            0
            they didn’t have that much ... hee hee hee there wasn’t
            3500 lost and even a tether remains ... are you sick there where are the tsyfirs you take?
            1. faiver
              faiver 13 July 2017 06: 59
              +1
              the Germans in more than 41 year produced more than 12 thousand different planes plus planes produced earlier, so relax and smoke aside
              and giggle further ....
              1. mysch
                mysch 13 July 2017 08: 21
                +1
                and the proportion of fighters then what was there? you’re talking nonsense .. take transporters - bombers were generally a priority - they bombed a lot and loved this business. scouts, etc. etc. For 41 years, do you know the loss of crews after the air war over Britain? Now imagine if everyone who drowned in the English Channel began to fly with us? Here we wouldn’t think enough and sickly at all - 23 thousand crews were not counted as a result of the battles over Britain .... here you’re koumekaite .. and they also fought in Africa, they have air defense over Germany. Since 43, Italy, since 44 France, at least you are the cutest! their scale and ours! and in the west everyone flew high, but everything was low and we had to adapt the same planes for one front and another. If we fought with the Germans 1vs 1 they would have crusted such bones to us would not have collected
                1. Scratchy doll
                  Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 09: 21
                  0
                  He fought with them fighting almost one on one USSR over the Kuban, only then there were attempts to begin daytime high-altitude raids.
                  1. mysch
                    mysch 13 July 2017 13: 14
                    +1
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTvb2TNqFY0&l
                    ist = PLu_fS5J5vx6dOKfChymJEfoAWDVUtiBEp & index =
                    16
                    Nobody was killed there near Kuban, the Germans were bombing us there, given our numerical superiority in Germany fighters — they bombed from 40 to 45, and what difference would it ever be, how would you feel when bombs fall on you day and day? and who dropped so many bombers to the ground? -how many crews defended Germany there? in general, see the program - there the experts tell by the day how it was and who hee hee hee whom he had laid. They have 3 fronts, do we have one difference? or how? they fought for 6 years we are incomplete 4 years the difference is damn there? how many countries did they keep in occupation? transfer? and everywhere, one way or another, both air defense and pilots and fighter jets are needed — you do not compare the wretched eastern front and their fronts where the English have spitfayers, the Americans have mustangs, etc., etc. and for each species it was necessary to oppose something !!!!!
                    1. hohol95
                      hohol95 13 July 2017 16: 28
                      +1
                      You forgot that the USSR had one active front from the northern outskirts to the Caucasus mountains, and two "sleeping" ones - Transcaucasia - the possibility of Turkey entering the war (significant events in Iran) + the Far East with pressure from Japan! There it was also necessary to keep troops and military equipment!
                      1. mysch
                        mysch 13 July 2017 19: 40
                        0
                        Well, we had a non-aggression agreement with Turkey, which by the way, despite Hitler, didn’t violate the complaints, and with Japan, too, the troops took them from there to Moscow already in the fall of 41. The front is large, but not 2-3 and the Germans sprayed their forces where more than ours. I don’t remember how many fighters I had to keep in anti-aircraft defense only in Germany, but I remember that a lot. Plus, we must take into account the fact that the troops were present in many occupied countries with an active party movement — Greece, Yugoslavia, Poland also went to partisans and still we are a partisan country. countries, how much control you need, count and be surprised ... so ...
                      2. Scratchy doll
                        Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 02: 00
                        +1
                        There is nothing to explain. 4 out of 5 Germans were killed on the eastern front. In the Kuban, the Luftwaffe lost 60% of aces at once.
                2. faiver
                  faiver 13 July 2017 09: 42
                  0
                  including fighters 3744pcs., plus 2746pcs in 40, bombers 2852pcs in 40 and 3373pcs in 41, what’s unrealistic? 971 scouts in 40 and 1079 pcs. in 41 year
              2. Bask
                Bask 13 July 2017 10: 40
                0
                The Germans have never produced so many planes.
                1. faiver
                  faiver 13 July 2017 11: 12
                  +1
                  those. 113,5 of thousands of aircraft from 39 to 45, did I invent this myself? laughing
                  1. Bask
                    Bask 13 July 2017 11: 48
                    0
                    Not necessarily, it’s just that you are happy with a figure that gives you the right to think that the Soviet Air Force won air superiority in the 41st, and not in the 44th and not at the cost of losses and mistakes, but with the skill of poorly trained pilots.
                    1. faiver
                      faiver 13 July 2017 12: 30
                      0
                      with my fantasies it’s for you to reason :) I’m going to prove to you that black is white and vice versa I’m not going to
                      only our combat losses in 41 a year 3-4 times more than the Germans ...
                      1. Bask
                        Bask 13 July 2017 12: 47
                        +2
                        And I don’t have to prove anything, unlike you, I’m not writing that the Germans on the Eastern Front lost 3827 aircraft in six months, and this despite the fact that the Germans never had so many planes on the Eastern Front, and of all types. so many victories in December of the 41st Luftwaffe would simply not have happened.
                    2. faiver
                      faiver 13 July 2017 12: 33
                      0
                      with my fantasies it’s for you to reason :) I’m going to prove to you that black is white and vice versa I’m not going to
                      only our combat losses in 41 a year 3-4 times more than the Germans ...
                    3. faiver
                      faiver 13 July 2017 12: 36
                      0
                      with my fantasies it’s for you to reason :) I’m going to prove to you that black is white and vice versa I’m not going to
                      only our combat losses in 41 a year 3-4 times more than the Germans ...
      2. mysch
        mysch 13 July 2017 12: 16
        0
        I don’t remember that smiling All said such a thing ... in the battle for Britain and after the Germans didn’t get a few thousand crews ... experienced pilots ... what if they all flew with us? and take it from Italy from France from Africa. .. during all the years of WWII, if only then they would have been up there, yes ... how many more forces were deployed by the air defense forces to protect Germany itself? do you feel the difference we had one front, and they have up to 4 different years
        In I gave-Rezun resting laughing
        1. Scratchy doll
          Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 04: 04
          0
          Issued by someone from Pavlov’s headquarters concentrating aviation at the main airfields two days before the German attack. Otherwise, they would not have a chance, even if they had collected everything.
    4. Scratchy doll
      Scratchy doll 12 July 2017 22: 29
      0
      Quote: AKC
      Where did the 537 aircraft go ????

      nowhere, a large (very large) part of Soviet aviation was destroyed at airfields from which even anti-aircraft guns had been taken "to firing" the day before. The author apparently preferred this in the comments to the previous part not to notice and rewrite the story in a new way.
    5. Alf
      Alf 12 July 2017 22: 46
      0
      Quote: AKC
      Maybe Comrade Stalin plagued them

      Absolutely right! Personally shot.
    6. mysch
      mysch 13 July 2017 08: 06
      0
      I then asked about the Luftwaffe planes on the western fronts and the lion's share of them in Germany, what they had to keep in order to protect the Allied aircraft from raids (and Germany was bombed to the entire depth of the territory and started right from the age of 40 !!!) and I had to defuse a lot pilots and cars to protect the territory of the Reich!
      I wrote about it and mixed me here with dirt quickly and loudly. German industry did not work in paradise conditions — factories bombed cities — and not 20 planes each and bombed with hundreds of cars in formations. Our factories that were exported were at least not treated with bombs from the top. For me, it would be hard if it weren’t for me not to work with caution that they could sprinkle good from above at any time
      1. Scratchy doll
        Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 08: 18
        0
        Quote: mysch
        I wrote about it and mixed me here with dirt quickly and loudly

        and done right. Since the fall of 1943, raids began when the Luftwaffe was already defeated in the Kuban.
        Bombers and night fighters are very different from front-line fighters, as are their pilots.
        1. mysch
          mysch 13 July 2017 12: 20
          +1
          In the Kuban smashed? Whom? Did Pokryshkin tell you this? -Here at leisure, look at the material, there the people of Kuban are sorting your regiments-3 historians-marvel at the defeat-scream
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTvb2TNqFY0&l
          ist = PLu_fS5J5vx6dOKfChymJEfoAWDVUtiBEp & index =
          16
          1. Scratchy doll
            Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 02: 02
            0
            me - yes, Pokryshkin, in Odessa, personally.
            Do not they have cheese from the shelf stole?
      2. Scratchy doll
        Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 09: 15
        +1
        Escort fighters for these "formations" appeared only in 1944.
        For the first time, our exported plants without walls and roofs were covered with snow and rain, and constantly frost hit the workers on both sides, from which you could not hide in a bomb shelter.
        German plants were not bombed, the allies destroyed the civilian population in the residential sector.
        1. mysch
          mysch 13 July 2017 12: 24
          +1
          Everything was bombed, bearing factories, aircraft engine factories — what thwarted the output of a new engine — THEY BOMBED ALL the more so in the future sectors of responsibility of the USSR. Why else did all the factories carry underground to the Germans — nothing to burrow into the ground? and the lack of cover for bombers, which makes optional protection from these same bombers? who then drove these bombers to the ground since 40? are you sick and who flew in Africa? in England before, in Italy? in Malta? in France? you do not compare the incomparable - I’d better work in a factory without a roof - because a bomb will strike any roof!
          1. Scratchy doll
            Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 02: 03
            +1
            A raid on bearing plants in Schweinfurt and Regensburg was unsuccessful. Even after the Kuban.
  6. unknown
    unknown 12 July 2017 09: 37
    +3
    The Germans, oddly enough, it was Mig who was rated above all.

    Our designers did not interfere with the absence of duralumin, but the lack of powerful engines and high-octane fuel. It is enough to recall the history of the same Me-109. And the story of Spitfire is even clearer and more conclusive.

    A bit of assembly technology, from memories. At one time I was acquainted with one outstanding person. During the war years, he did not get to the front, by sight. He worked on the assembly of fighters. He told me that the harmfulness was such that ... the "balls" were inflated like soccer balls ...
    1. mysch
      mysch 13 July 2017 08: 23
      0
      By the way, I remembered ... Yes, you are right, Germans Migg appreciated well, by the way, and they were afraid of donkeys especially if they were piloted by experienced pilots
      1. kugelblitz
        kugelblitz 14 July 2017 07: 10
        0
        And our pilots FW 190 did not appreciate! wassat
    2. kugelblitz
      kugelblitz 14 July 2017 07: 13
      0
      The MiG-3 was appreciated because of its good speed at altitude, like an interceptor of bombers. As for the front-line, the Yak-9T with a 37 mm gun was most feared.
  7. novel66
    novel66 12 July 2017 09: 39
    +4
    Thank you article, comparative analysis. backed up by factual material is always interesting to read
  8. Ruby
    Ruby 12 July 2017 10: 03
    +1
    Quote: tchoni
    I’ll tell you one clever VESTCH, the current will not be offended))))
    The USSR produced as much luminium in 39-41 as Japan. But the Japanese actually did all-metal zero, and we didn’t))))
    By the volume of production of winged metal, the USSR before the war was only two and a small groves inferior to Germany. But the Germans made all their combat aircraft (ALL KARL !!!) all-metal, and we could not afford to create all-metal fighters?
    Kind of weird. As with oil and the dollar)))) (oil falls - the dollar, ..., grows. Oil grows, the dollar, ...., the same grows. Therefore, the point is not in oil, but in .....)
    But, in general, the article resembles a copy-paste of a history textbook. A bunch of common and common truths. Boredaaaaaaa ...... I won’t be surprised if it goes on like that later)))

    In fact, the main deposits of raw materials for aluminum production in the pre-war USSR in Ukraine were. What probably happened to them in the 41st year is probably not necessary.
    A lot of aluminum went to the production of tank diesel engines.
    If it weren’t for the supplies of the allies, which allowed us to alleviate aluminum hunger to some extent, we still need to see how many tanks the USSR would release, and how the same Yak3 and La7 would eventually come out.
    We are very fond of counting the number of tanks and planes that came in on land lend, but somehow they forget about raw materials, machine tools, fuel ....
    1. Scratchy doll
      Scratchy doll 12 July 2017 22: 40
      +2
      Soviet fighter aircraft was wooden before the Second World War.
      Deposits of protective varnish for duralumin were in Brazil. For the operation of fighters with thin duralumin lining, such a varnish is necessary, because duralumin is not aluminum, it quickly rusts. TB-3 bombers could be made without him, from a thick corrugated sheet. The Rockefeller clan owned Brazilian plantations of raw materials for the production of this varnish.
      For the operation of powerful high-speed aircraft engines, high-quality natural engine oil is also required. Corresponding oil fields suitable for the production of this oil were owned by the same Rockefeller Standard Oil.
      Deliveries of both of these to the USSR were banned by the world's backstage. To the Nazis, to reduce the number of Russians, all this was supplied on the contrary. The war itself was the revenge of the USSR for the mass executions of its Trotskyist sadistic degenerates and other pests and enemies of the people during the Stalin purges that happened before it.
      World industry then also depended on deposits of rubber and helium. The latter was also available only in the USA, and was not even supplied to their beloved Nazi female dogs, because of this the Hindenburg airship in Lakehurst burned so beautifully.
  9. A1845
    A1845 12 July 2017 10: 28
    0
    The sequel was a bit disappointing. I would like to see the analysis and personal assessment of the author. We have already read the official versions ..
  10. The comment was deleted.
  11. OneMoreDay
    OneMoreDay 12 July 2017 11: 12
    +1
    Very weak. Where we want to show "how bad", climb is given there (LaGG), and where it is not necessary (Yak), there is only an estimated judgment: "they say it is worse .. but not catastrophic" (this is not an author’s quote, if that .. )
    Losing Yak to Messer 5km / h, and LaGGa Yaku - 20 km / h? Well, yes, the numbers seem to be more different. But why then in the first part to declare:
    There is no point in comparing, for example, the maximum speeds obtained as a result of tests under favorable conditions, if the combat speeds of the aircraft differed significantly from them. And the difference reached from 30 to 70 km / h.

    And even more so in the "dog dump" the speed will be completely different.
    It’s also not clear why the MiG has frankly weak weapons (and this is bad, it’s just horrible "1 × 12,7 mm BS machine gun with 300 rounds of ammunition and 2 × 7,62 mm ShKAS machine gun with 375 rounds of ammunition on each" ), but Yak seems to have nothing, although according to the data given it differs by a 20mm gun? Or the same, mentioned in the first part, Me-109F-2 with a 15mm MG-151/15 cannon?
    Or is it about ammunition? Well then, you have to write about the limited ammunition.
    Total: (regardless of fanaticism and awareness, and judging by the article) two bad fighters, one better, but worse than German, and fragmentary data are presented that seem to confirm this point of view. But why is such a rate of climb bad? - Ah, yes !, one and a half to two times lower than that of the Messer (and what about Yak?); why such weapons are bad, and the rest is not found in the article
    1. yehat
      yehat 12 July 2017 12: 46
      0
      the armament was weak for 2 reasons for 3 reasons - weak rifle training and really not excessive - Mig-XNUMX repeatedly went to ram, completely firing ammunition
      Especially often this happened when intercepting a partially armored he-111 - to bring down it with machine gun weapons was not easy.
      1. OneMoreDay
        OneMoreDay 12 July 2017 13: 29
        0
        In fact, I am quite familiar with the topic, and my questions to the author of the article are exclusive. Because: saying "a", you must say "b". And observe common principles in evaluations. If the MiG has weak weapons, then why is a similar Me109-F2 weapon enough? I have my own opinion on this “why,” but I don’t know if the author has it.
        1. yehat
          yehat 12 July 2017 13: 32
          0
          bf-109 still had a half-gun half-machine gun
          and the stock of cartridges for rifle-caliber machine guns was radical.
          Finally, to shoot SB-1, DB3 requires less effort
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 12 July 2017 13: 54
        +1
        Quote: yehat
        the armament was weak for 2 reasons for 3 reasons - weak rifle training and really not excessive - Mig-XNUMX repeatedly went to ram, completely firing ammunition

        EMNIP, the problem was that to install normal weapons on the MiG would have to dodge. The AM-35 engine selected for the machine did not allow the installation of a motor gun (the competitors did not have such problems - the M-105 mated perfectly with a cannon firing through the shaft).
        And the car had to be handed over quickly - otherwise there were chances to fly past the order. So they armed the MiG-1 with what could be delivered without much perversion.
        1. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker 12 July 2017 14: 21
          +4
          Quote: Alexey RA
          the problem was that for the installation of normal weapons on the MiG would have to dodge. The AM-35 engine selected for the machine did not allow the installation of a motor gun (the competitors did not have such problems - the M-105 mated perfectly with a cannon firing through the shaft).

          The 1941 report of the Western Front Air Force headquarters explicitly stated that the small arms of the new aircraft gave a large number of failures. Regarding Mikoyan's fighters, it was noted: “On the MiG-3 aircraft in the first series, the power heads were poorly fitted to the ShKAS machine guns, the power sleeves to the heads and synchronous transmission was not worked out.” Together with problems with the 12,7-mm BS, the unfinished feed to the 7,62-mm ShKAS made the MiG a “dove of peace”.
          As of mid-May 1941, the 9th SAD had not yet begun to study the combat use of MiGs. When the military training began, they presented many unpleasant surprises. The unimportant aerobatic qualities of the new fighters were exacerbated by deficiencies in weapons. In the same report by P. G. Begma it was noted: “When shooting BS machine guns in the months of April-May of this year, most machine guns did not fire at all at various factory defects. ” The MiG still had 7,62 mm ShKAS machine guns, but not everything was in order with them. So even before the war, the report on the state of the 9th SAD stated as a serious drawback of the new materiel: “The machine gun installations of ShKAS were not debugged by factory No. 1, as a result, the machine guns did not fire or give continuous delays.
          The memorandum of the head of the 3rd department of the ZapOVO P. G. Begma to the Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Belarus (P.) P. K. Ponomarenko of June 17, 1941 stated:
          “Fighter aviation regiments of the 9th mixed aviation division - 41, 124, 126 and 129 received 240 MiG-1 and MiG-3 aircraft for rearmament.
          In the process of mastering the MiG-1 - MiG-3 aircraft as of 12.6.41, there were 53 flight accidents. As a result of these accidents, 10 aircraft are completely destroyed and cannot be repaired, 5 require factory repairs and 38 aircraft require major repairs in aircraft workshops. A total of 53 aircraft were disabled.
          Due to various factory defects of the aircraft and the engine, over 100 aircraft are temporarily unsuitable for operation. Thus, at present, on all regiments of 9 mixed air divisions there are serviceable 85–90 aircraft for 206 pilots flying on MiG-1 and MiG-3 planes ”
  12. kapitan281271
    kapitan281271 12 July 2017 11: 42
    +4
    I didn’t understand something. The author is a relative of the “Mr.” Yakovlev, what nonsense, I especially liked about vertical maneuverability almost like the Me-109, but it’s just that you open memoirs well, for example, Vorozheykin and read “the main thing is to impose a battle on the horizontal lines for the mesers on the vertical corpse "and as far as I remember when defending the sky of Moscow where it is necessary to say directly the second London the Germans didn’t succeed at all miserable MiGs worked and even when forming the air units from the testers, it was suggested to choose any model of the car as somehow" miserable " the best pilots of the country chose MiGs, why this is evidently poorly versed in technology.
    1. tomket
      tomket 12 July 2017 14: 31
      0
      Quote: kapitan281271
      Testers were asked to choose any model of the car, somehow "miserable" The "worthless" best pilots of the country chose MiGs, which is why it is clearly poorly versed in technology.

      And we all drill pilots were level - a test? Do you remember Zimin? Which - a good pilot on the MiG automatically became weak.
      1. kapitan281271
        kapitan281271 12 July 2017 15: 32
        +1
        Yes, about the testers, I wrote only because the trained people chose a better model, I understand that the designers and command of the Air Force had to focus on the insufficient training of our pilots, by the way recently, I think many people saw this video, where the restored MiG-3 I piloted one of our test pilots, (I don’t remember my last name), because after aerobatics I spoke out in the sense that the maneuverability of the MiG-3 was a revelation to him, and he flew both the Yak-3 and the donkey on the gustav "he said only that at low altitudes both horizontal and vertical maneuverability is not inferior to bad at any altitudes, it only tells the pilot a certain legend, the only thing is that this machine requires a higher pilot qualification in order to get everything from this machine, what she can do.
  13. yehat
    yehat 12 July 2017 12: 10
    +2
    Lugg-3 was better than his reputation. The plane was hindered by 3 things - poor communication, low qualification of average pilots and lack of experience in piloting from energy conservation, as well as the current charter, which simply prevented the aircraft from being used effectively. With competent piloting, the Lagg-3 could compete seriously with the bf-109 f2 / f4. For example, Galchenko proved it.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 12 July 2017 13: 50
      +2
      Quote: yehat
      Lugg-3 was better than his reputation. The plane was hindered by 3 things - poor communication, low qualification of average pilots and lack of experience in piloting from energy conservation, as well as the current charter, which simply prevented the aircraft from being used effectively.

      All this has been superimposed on a decrease in the quality of military vehicles:
      The pursuit of the fulfillment and overfulfillment of the plan in the conditions when many low-skilled women and teenagers worked in factories negatively affected the quality of equipment. As a result, a high accident rate was recorded. According to the Air Force, from June to October 1942, 18 disasters occurred in a non-combat environment, with six cases of destruction of the wings, and eight of the two-shouldered flap control lever; add here six breakdowns, one emergency landing and 77 downtime of military vehicles due to malfunction of the material part.

      And also - the low level of training of technicians in the units: open hatches, oil not replaced at the right time, incorrectly adjusted flaps often ate up to 25-35 km / h of speed.
      1. yehat
        yehat 12 July 2017 14: 04
        +1
        from the service of the Yak-1 suffered much more.
        the average drill machine had a speed loss of 40-70 mph.
        somehow they don’t write about it, but with such indicators the yak-1 was about the same iron as the i-16.
        1. mysch
          mysch 13 July 2017 12: 39
          0
          I didn’t hear about the iron, but I heard about the absence of cab lights, wheel covers - guards and much more — they lost in speed up to 30 and more, as they used to say, it’s not so important, it was important to see on time, jump on time, so that the lantern doesn’t jam and the maximum speed and fighting different things, in principle, if the Germans forced the Germans to the horizon, then the only thing missing was that the German would not go to the horizon if he was not forced to. Yak is good on the horizon but who will fight with him when the Germans were stronger in the vertical and the height is speed maneuver fire as said pokryshkin amateur boom zoom on cobra
          1. yehat
            yehat 17 July 2017 13: 29
            +1
            with the vertical, the Germans were not as good as it seems
            bf-109 had fuel for 45 minutes of flight
            it take off, gain altitude of about 4-5 km along the way, search for 10 minutes, make one approach to the target, and return. They did not always have time to take a comfortable position. In vertical combat, fuel is consumed with a bang. A protracted battle often led to the bf-109 falling somewhere elementary due to fuel or a broken radiator.
            Nowotny (German ace) described his typical battle as a one-off short attack attack.
            And we caught a lot of our carelessness: about 40% of losses in the air - crashed cars when they return home.
  14. xomaNN
    xomaNN 12 July 2017 12: 42
    0
    Useful stuff. And it showed very clearly that the technological lag of the USSR in the production of chain mail-aluminum deliberately doomed the 1941 aircraft to the lagging ones ... Well, imperfect aircraft engines could not pull overweight planes.
    Aviaas could have won on such aircraft, but the main backbone of pilots in 1941 was inexperienced
    1. A1845
      A1845 12 July 2017 15: 08
      +1
      Quote: xomaNN
      And it very convexly showed that the technological lag of the USSR in the production of chain mail-aluminum deliberately doomed the 1941 aircraft to lagging ...

      oh? were there problems with the release of the Pe-2?
      1. mysch
        mysch 13 July 2017 12: 43
        0
        But ne-2 was like ME-110 ... it was originally planned as a heavy escort fighter, but then it was decided that he didn’t dig into the navel and was converted into a dive-pilot, it didn’t matter and therefore the pawns basically dived from a gentle or even carpet on the areas. seldom when bombs were thrown at the peak, although I didn’t hear anything derogatory about a pawn-who flew on it — they said that the plane took good bombs a little and the beautiful machine could withstand up to 8 hours of overload, its wings were bent and didn’t fly
        1. yehat
          yehat 17 July 2017 13: 38
          0
          The Pe-2 flew much faster than the bf110e. Especially the first unarmed modifications.
          And as for the claims to the plane - the shooter had to be very strong - had to be turned over by a machine gun, when diving the plane received very high loads - the crew had to be very physically strong. When servicing electric drives, the low qualification of the ground personnel affected - there were a lot of complaints about the service, and the combat readiness of the fleet was low.
          Also, the aiming equipment was very mediocre - it was difficult for a pawn to hit from horizontal bombing and even more difficult to dive.
          there were some claims to altitude and payload. Although in my opinion, the survival of the aircraft and independence from fighter cover offset the low load.
          As far as I read, by the end of the war only 2 squadrons in the northwestern direction were bombed from a dive - the rest were thrown only from the horizon.
  15. gla172
    gla172 12 July 2017 13: 26
    0
    "" "" ......... In the 50s. last century, a group of former Nazi military leaders wrote a generally good book, "World War 1939-1945." Among its authors were Lieutenant General Dietmar, Major General von Butlar, Colonel General von Rendulic, Field Marshal von Rundstedt, Lieutenant General Zimmerman, cavalry general Westphal and many others.
    In the third part of this book, entitled “War in the Air,” written by retired colonel Grefdoret, it is stated that by June 21, 1941, 61 aviation groups were prepared for war with Russia, which included 1830 aircraft, of which about 1280 were combat-ready . Since the same author further declares that from June 22 to July 5, the Luftwaffe lost 807 aircraft on the Eastern Front, and from 6 July to 19 July, one of two. Either the author deliberately understates the number of German aviation (which is quite obvious, since the Luftwaffe air group in the state did not rely on 477, but at least 30 aircraft), or takes into account only fighters and bombers, since it is not clear what the Luftwaffe flew after July 40 .. ...... "" "" "" "
    1. yehat
      yehat 12 July 2017 13: 39
      0
      By June 22, a third of the fleet consisted of outdated or even civilian aircraft, which they planned to use only in the early days - like the he-51 and others. And the authors, I think, did not take these machines into account at all, but they appear in losses.
    2. mysch
      mysch 13 July 2017 12: 44
      0
      they inflated the losses — the Germans did not have such enormous losses at the beginning of the war on the eastern front. land — yes — by September the Wehrmacht’s losses reached the level of World War I
  16. Curious
    Curious 12 July 2017 14: 48
    +5
    The author is stubbornly trying to create a fundamental study based on three sources, two of which are the modern “historical remake” of compiler masters far from aviation. Let us leave this to the conscience of the author and turn to the estimates of the one who directly encountered Soviet aircraft in the sky of the Great Patriotic War - the Germans.
    A qualified person will help us in this.
    WALTER SCHWABEDISSEN, a participant in the First World War. In 1933, as part of a group of officers of the General Staff of the Wehrmacht, he was transferred to the Luftwaffe. Before the outbreak of World War II, he served for two years at the Ministry of Aviation in the training department, a year at the Military Academy. Then he headed the territorial aviation commands of the Luftwaffe. At the beginning of the war, Major General Walter Schwabedissen commanded the anti-aircraft artillery corps, the 2nd fighter air division of the 12th air corps, later became the commander of German troops in the Netherlands. In late 1944, Schwabedissen headed the personnel department of the Hungarian Air Force and led it until the end of the war.
    In 1960, in the journal of the Institute of the US Air Force No. 175, his study "Analysis of the actions of Soviet aviation in 1941-1945" was published. When the translation came out in 2001, the phrase "Stalin's Falcons" was added to the title in accordance with the spirit of the times.
    Let's start with an assessment of the prewar aircraft industry.
    "After a trip to the Soviet Union in 1936, the French aircraft manufacturer Louis Charles Breguet came to the following estimates:
    “Steelmaking plants and power plants were well equipped; unconditionally capable engineers work there. In general, it seems that using the labor of ten times more workers than France, the Soviet aviation industry produces 20 times more aircraft.
    The efforts of the Soviets in mass production are unthinkable. Conveyor production was organized, as in our automobile plants. Workers work in three shifts. ”

    French aircraft manufacturer Henry Potes says the same thing. French experts estimate that in 1937, 370000 people were employed in the Soviet aviation industry, and the annual output in 1936 amounted to 7000 aircraft and 40000 aircraft engines.
    In April 1941, Lieutenant Colonel (now retired Lieutenant General) Heinrich Aschenbrenner, then the German Air Force Attache in Moscow, invited a number of Luftwaffe engineers to tour Soviet aircraft factories. The reports submitted by the engineers upon their return gave the Luftwaffe an opportunity to look at the Soviet aviation industry from the inside. In the trip, which lasted from April 7 to 16, ten German engineers took part with the attache. They visited the Experimental Institute of Aeronautics in Moscow, the fighter plant and the engine plant in Moscow, two engine plants in Rybinsk (Shcherbakov), the aircraft plant in Fili and the engine plant in Molotov {51}, in the Urals. Each of these plants was a giant enterprise, employing up to 30000 people in each of the three shifts.
    The visit summary report, among other things, emphasized:
    1. Factories are almost completely independent of external suppliers.
    2. The work is well organized, everything is thought out to the smallest detail.
    3. The equipment is modern, in good condition.
    4. High skill level, hard work towards the frugality of Soviet workers.
    Another interesting feature was that up to 50% of the workers were women who performed work that only skilled men trusted in other countries, and that the quality of the final products was excellent.
    Although it can be assumed that the best plants showed the German commission, it was to be expected that the rest of the plants were at a very acceptable level. "
    As you can see, not everything is so bad. There is potential.
    Now, back in 1943, when the Germans had already summarized and analyzed information about new Soviet fighters.
    "In 1942-1943, Soviet fighter aircraft made a big breakthrough in their development. Modern aircraft, and especially those delivered by the allies that the Germans had to deal with, were well armed and equipped. In fighter aircraft, exclusively single-engine vehicles equipped with machine guns and one or two guns.
    Luftwaffe officers note that the obsolete types of I-153 and I-16 aircraft were withdrawn from service already in 1942. Since then, the Germans have only encountered new Yak, MiG and LaGG aircraft, and since 1943, Hurricane aircraft , “Spitfire”, “Tomahawk”, “Kittyhawk”, “Aerocobra” and even with some modifications of “Lightning”, which were supplied as part of the Lend-Lease allies.
    Among Soviet aircraft, La-5, Yak-7 and Yak-9 were considered the most advanced, not inferior to the German Bf 109F and Bf 109G fighters, as well as the more advanced Fw 190. The La-5 had a smaller turn radius and was not inferior in horizontal speed German fighters, which had an advantage only in diving speed. LaGG-3 and Yak-9 in their characteristics and weapons were also close to the Bf 109 and, along with La-5, were the most popular fighter aircraft among Soviet pilots. MiG-3 could not stand the competition and was gradually withdrawn from service.
    Significant progress was also made in the armament of fighter aircraft: 7,62 mm machine guns were replaced by 12,7 mm; the number of fighters equipped with 20 mm guns increased significantly, and the Yak-9 sometimes even had 37 mm guns. The quality and power of the explosives with which the aircraft shells were equipped was high enough, which aroused natural concern among German pilots.
    Thus, German specialists noted a significant increase in Soviet fighter aircraft both in quantitative and qualitative terms, in terms of their characteristics, Russian fighters were practically equal to German ones, supplies of allied fighters increased, aircraft armament was decisively strengthened, however, on-board equipment remained quite low. level. "
    I will say right away that the author sometimes makes mistakes on airplanes supplied by the Allies, as the American twin-engine fighter R-38 Lightning was not delivered to the Soviet Union. But we are interested in evaluating Soviet aircraft.
    As for the recommendations on aerial combat with German fighters, analysis of their strengths and weaknesses and features set forth in the book "Fighter Aviation Tactics" issued by the Red Army Air Force command in 1943, everything is here, http://wio.ru/tacftr /ww2p1.htm, otherwise the volume of the comment becomes too heavy.
    1. yehat
      yehat 17 July 2017 13: 48
      +1
      about the factories shown - both were built with the participation of the Germans, with German equipment
      and even specialists from the Reich came to establish production itself at the finished factory.
      other plants were sharply inferior in equipment.
      That is why Yakovlev, who seized the plant in MSC, was able to maintain a decent level of quality for his aircraft. The rest were less fortunate - for example, Lagg-3 was assembled with a noticeable loss of quality. The claims to factories in solar republics were especially great
  17. A1845
    A1845 12 July 2017 15: 00
    +1
    Quote: yehat
    at the moment the weapons were weak for 2 reasons - weak rifle training and really not excessive

    the main reason - nothing could be thrust into the collapse of the BMV-6 (AM-34) cylinders
  18. A1845
    A1845 12 July 2017 15: 03
    0
    Quote: Curious
    As you can see, not everything is so bad

    and Comrade Stalin didn’t plan to make it bad
    created the aviation industry - did not skimp
  19. 52
    52 12 July 2017 15: 05
    +1
    Delusional article. LaGG-3 of the 66th series when they stopped releasing? Eh, Author, learn the materiel.
  20. Kostya Shakhnazarov
    Kostya Shakhnazarov 12 July 2017 15: 12
    +1
    Quote: WUA 518
    Quote: Operator
    Sometimes.

    So, in Yaks in the Great Patriotic War 164 pilots flew down, shooting down more than 15 enemy planes, in La - 64. On average, the pilot-ace who fought in Yak won 19,6 personal victories, or 21, total (personal + group), on La these numbers will be respectively 20 and 21,6. ...


    good afternoon. Very constructive comment. However, I allow myself to note that it may turn out to be, however, not transparent enough.
    You are here, if I understood correctly, you forgot to take into account that the Yaks flew longer actually, which, perhaps, not very significantly, but according to the logic of things, theoretically provided not only a larger number of aces (as you did not apply to notice), but and more shot down for those who fought longer - since 1941.
    Also, Yaki and their pilots could account for significantly more sorties and so on.
    On the whole, Pokryshkin did not like Yak for his lack of armament, which could also leave a mark on performance. No wonder that by the end of the war, quite ambitious decisions appeared on Yakovlev’s planes in terms of arming with large-caliber weapons.
  21. Kostya Shakhnazarov
    Kostya Shakhnazarov 12 July 2017 15: 34
    +1
    Quote: Operator
    Quote: tomket
    sofa aircraft

    Especially for the sofa designer of tomket, Yakovlev designed the Yak-1 / Yak-3 / Yak-7 / Yak-9 surrogates adapted for mass production at bicycle factories throughout the war.
    Therefore, the most effective Soviet pilots flew on La-7 and Cobra.
    Yakovlev also showed a lack of creative potential after the war, releasing the wild designs of fighters, bombers and passenger aircraft, which have now been sent to the scrap. Yakovlev Design Bureau level - training aircraft and no more.


    in general, on the topic of comparison, there is the fact that all these aircraft, including the Yak, took their rightful place over the battlefields. For example: with all the shortcomings, Yak was good, for example, in the role of defender of attack aircraft (represented mainly by the Il-2 attack aircraft). “Lavochkin” was less suitable for this role, with greater effectiveness in attacking actions.
    1. Operator
      Operator 12 July 2017 15: 41
      0
      Yaks were suitable only for one thing - mass production at former bicycle factories with workmanship at the level of the crashing of the airplanes of every fourth aircraft (see the accident situation after 9 on May 1945, when Stalin forbade Yakov to fly).

      Without exception, all types of fighters of the Red Army Air Force should and could cover the work of bombers and attack aircraft.
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 12 July 2017 16: 07
        +2

        In general, Soviet planes did not fly at the expense of engines, but MAKHA WINGS ...
  22. kapitan281271
    kapitan281271 12 July 2017 15: 46
    0
    https://youtu.be/_wTZjYGyl-4
  23. hohol95
    hohol95 12 July 2017 15: 57
    0
    Of course, I understand that the main rivals for air supremacy were Me.109 and Me.110, but I think it is not right to hush up the role of the Romanian IAR 80

    There were fewer, but they flew ...
    1. yehat
      yehat 12 July 2017 17: 26
      0
      Yes, they flew, only accident rate on take-off - landing was off the scale
      According to statistics, half of the bf-109 cars are lost during landing. Mostly - chassis damage
      So Messer was a model of reliability and manageability compared to IAR 80
      1. WUA 518
        WUA 518 12 July 2017 18: 22
        0
        Quote: yehat
        Mostly - chassis damage

        Yes, there is not only the chassis.
  24. The comment was deleted.
  25. kapitan281271
    kapitan281271 12 July 2017 16: 04
    +1
    aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
    1. kapitan281271
      kapitan281271 12 July 2017 16: 21
      +1
      In this video, in my opinion, all myths about the MiG-3 are debunked
      ....... "At all altitudes on bends there is a huge advantage in maneuverability even over the I-16" .... correspondent, "this is a sensation"
      ...... "on 7Z on the MiG-3 you can work on the Messerschmitt this is no longer possible"
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 12 July 2017 20: 59
        0
        Quote: kapitan281271
        and 7Zh on the MiG-3 you can work on the Messerschmitt is no longer possible

        Actually, offline they beat a muzzle for such a muhlezh. About 7ZH it is said on 10.10. And not about the MiG-3
        1. kapitan281271
          kapitan281271 13 July 2017 08: 39
          0
          .... "at 7zh Pokryshkin can still safely pilot on the Messerschmitt this has not happened" .... 10.51
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 13 July 2017 22: 50
            0
            Quote: kapitan281271
            Pokryshkin can still safely pilot

            Oh, it turns out the MiG-3 got lost, and it's not about planes. Are you talking to people who have no traffic, listen to the video?
  26. Operator
    Operator 12 July 2017 16: 58
    0
    hohol95,
    Then learn the materiel - what is DD and why planes with this prefix were always inferior to front-line fighters (so as not to write in VO h.nyu about "Spitfire" and "Cobra").
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 12 July 2017 19: 30
      +3
      If you go to the person before your x..No MY still grow and grow ...
      Judging by the known facts, the first, true training battle, took place in April 1944. A guest of 152 GIAP, Colonel of the US Air Force Bowent on Kingcobra, and on our side Hero of the Soviet Union Major SD D Lugansky on Yak-9, who easily knocked an American down easily, came in the tail! They landed, joked laughed and of course drank well, for the Victory!
      In the autumn of the same year, at the air base in Bari, our pilot V Shatsky from the Soviet air group in Italy on the Yak-1944DD in the demonstration battle "beat" the American pilot on the Mustang. The frustrated U.S. Air Force command immediately sent the publicly disgraced loser home to the States to train. Apparently, they simply did not understand that the Yak-9 was not a “gift” for the enemy!
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 12 July 2017 20: 53
        +2
        Quote: hohol95
        our pilot V Shatsky from the Soviet air group in Italy on the Yak-9DD in the demonstration battle "beat" the American pilot on the Mustang

        And how did he climb to the height where the Mustangs flew? Or was it Mutsang walking at the height of the torpedo bombers, where the Corsairs were supposed to work?
        Quote: hohol95
        US Air Force Colonel Bownt on Kingcobra

        Is Kingcobra a fighter? Low heights?
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 12 July 2017 22: 19
          0
          No! A kingcobra is just a flying cart with a 37mm cannon!
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 12 July 2017 23: 24
            0
            Quote: hohol95
            A kingcobra is just a flying cart with a 37mm cannon!

            Well, the weight of the Su-2 is not much different. The engine, however, is more powerful.
      2. nizhegorodec
        nizhegorodec 12 July 2017 21: 39
        0
        Quote: hohol95
        In the autumn of the same year, at the air base in Bari, our pilot V Shatsky from the Soviet air group in Italy on the Yak-1944DD in the demonstration battle "beat" the American pilot on the Mustang.

        The success of our pilot pleases of course, but this is a cheating, an unrecharged Yak at his crown height in the appointed place. And they would try in a real battle, where who is higher, that winner, but over the entire range of heights ...
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 12 July 2017 22: 18
          +3
          The air battle over Nis - a military clash of American and Soviet troops over Nis on November 7, 1944, one of several dozen documented episodes of World War II, classified as fire in their own way. American troops mistakenly attacked a Soviet transport convoy, killing 34 soldiers and officers (according to a report by the Deputy Chief of the General Staff of the Red Army, General Alexei Antonov). During a retaliatory air attack, Soviet pilots led by Alexander Koldunov shot down 2 to 7 enemy aircraft. Despite the incident, the leadership of the United States and the USSR decided not to make it public, and the command of the US Army apologized to the Soviet troops for the perfect oversight.
          The Americans, despite the fact that the command of the Mediterranean Air Force of the USA already knew that there were no German troops near Nis, mistakenly mistook the Soviet soldiers for the German and opened heavy fire, starting firing with cannons, machine guns, attacking with missiles and bombs. As a result of the air raid 34 people were killed, including the commander of the 6th Guards Rifle Corps of the Guard, Lieutenant General Kotov. 39 people were injured, and 20 vehicles with cargo were burned.

          Soviet troops initially decided that they were attacked by German "frames" - Fw-189, similar in shape to the American P-38 Lightning, but then they saw white stars on planes, and not German crosses at all. Waving banners, Soviet soldiers tried to convince the Americans that they mistakenly fired upon them, but the pilots did not notice or did not want to notice signs from the ground. Soviet aircraft were raised in alarm.

          The first alarming sounds were heard by soldiers of the 707th assault aviation regiment (the future Hero of the Soviet Union Nikolai Shmelev was also a witness), who listened to the speech of the deputy commander for political training, Lieutenant Colonel Sivuda. On alert, the 866th IAP was raised, and air defense forces also began shelling from the Nish airfield. Anti-aircraft gunners managed to bring down one American plane, which fell a kilometer north of the airfield.

          At 13:00, the Yak-9 and Yak-3 planes from the 866th IAP flew into the air and headed toward the Americans. The deputy commander of the regiment Dmitry Syrtsov gave orders not to attack the Americans, but to convince them to leave their positions, but after one of the Yaks was shot down, Soviet planes entered into battle with the Americans. Having removed the chassis, the fighters gained maximum speed near the ground and climbed up with a candle. Two American planes were shot down by the first attack, and soon the ace of Alexander Koldunov arrived in time to help the link. The Americans, dropping bombs, tried to defend themselves, but after intensified attacks headed towards Nis. On the way, one of the Soviet aircraft fired a third Lightning from a 37 mm gun, but was shot down from another machine gun.

          Only when Senior Lieutenant Surnev N.G. flew up to the leading "Lightning" and gestured to the pilot of that plane that they were Soviet soldiers, not German, the Americans decided to go south. After escorting them to the top of the mountain, Soviet aircraft turned back. One of the Americans whose plane was shot down was picked up by Soviet soldiers and taken to the airfield, where they soon decided to send him to the headquarters of the 17th Air Army.

          The second attack occurred quite quickly: about 40 Lightnings flew over the mountain range and again attacked Soviet soldiers. However, the pilots quickly flew towards the Americans and showed them their identification marks, after which the Americans quickly left the battlefield. In the direction of some pilots, Soviet pilots were forced to make several warning shots from guns and bursts of machine guns.
          Americans report four downed Soviet planes and two downed American Lightnings (Lieutenant Brewer No. 44-24035 and Lieutenant Coulson No. 43-28662 shot down in an air battle, both pilots killed, Captain King No. 44-24392 made an emergency landing after an anti-aircraft fire ) According to the report of the participant of the battle, the American pilot Kara, from four to five Soviet aircraft were shot down. The victims of the air raid are indicated from 31 to 37 people. According to some reports, Clarence Edvinson for such an incident was suspended from flying at the European theater of operations.
          According to the report of the deputy chief of the General Staff of the Red Army, Alexei Antonov, the Soviet troops lost two aircraft: the second lieutenant Shipul, shot down by the Americans, and the lieutenant Krivonogih, shot down by mistake by Soviet aircraft, were killed. According to the report of the headquarters of IAP 866, three planes and two pilots were lost (Lieutenant Shipuly was killed, Lieutenant Krivonogih was shot down by his anti-aircraft artillery and died, Lieutenant Zhestovsky was shot down by Lightning and survived), while five Lightning were shot down (three fell and two “ smoke and leave with a decline "). As a result of an air raid in the first case, 12 people were killed, including the commander of the 6th Guards Rifle Corps, Grigory Kotov. As a result, 34 people are listed as victims, including General Stepanov, father of pilot Viktor Stepanov, led by Alexander Koldunov.
          The battle witness was an airfield engineer Dragoslav Dimich, who after the war claimed that about 30 aircraft flew near Nis, among which were B-25 Mitchell bombers. The Americans very accurately bombed the head of the column, in response to which 9 Yak-3 planes took off from the airfield, one of which was immediately shot down. Another witness to the battle was the political instructor of the Yugoslav army, Yoko Dretzun, who counted as many as seven downed American aircraft: five P-38 Lightning fighters and two B-25 Mitchell bombers. According to him, 14 American pilots died. Among the dead from the Soviet side was a young pilot from Moscow, who lived in the house of Dimich. On the same day, both American and Soviet pilots were buried near the airfield.
          1. Operator
            Operator 12 July 2017 23: 33
            0
            Before posting other people's quotes (without attribution), it would be nice to study the materiel and find out how the P-38 differs from the P-51 laughing
          2. Scratchy doll
            Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 02: 31
            +1
            This was not a mistake, a good date was chosen to "congratulate."
          3. Bask
            Bask 13 July 2017 10: 56
            0
            Well, honestly enough already about this battle of the Yak-9 with P-38. In my opinion, I called you an article in "Aviation and Cosmonautics" in which everything is described about this battle. In short, ours did not start a battle, but they tried to point out to the Allies an error showing the stars on the fuselage. Only after the Americans shot down one yak a battle ensued in which they shot down three Yak-9s (taking into account the already shot down) and one P-38, one Soviet pilot died.
        2. Scratchy doll
          Scratchy doll 12 July 2017 22: 54
          0
          No cheating, for a fight you need to meet at some height. The best WW2 aircraft by all professionals in the west is recognized as the Yak-3.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 12 July 2017 23: 34
            +1
            Quote: Scratchy Doll
            No cheating, for a fight you need to meet at some height. The best WW2 aircraft by all professionals in the west is recognized as the Yak-3.

            Drop dead message. Which of the "professionals in the West" do you know?
            1. Scratchy doll
              Scratchy doll 12 July 2017 23: 54
              0
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Drop dead message. Which of the "professionals in the West" do you know?

              Google ... P-51 in it praises only shkolota, even for knowing about his English engine "Merlin". As he finds out, he immediately stops praising. By P-38 Ara Bonk and even more sympathy.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 13 July 2017 00: 22
                +1
                Quote: Scratchy Doll
                Google ..

                The most famous professional. In Russian dialed a request?
                Quote: Scratchy Doll
                even knowing about his English engine "Merlin"

                How to tell you ... Are you sure that Merlin from Derby and Merlin from Trafford Park are one and the same English motor? I'm not talking about Detroit.
                By the way, about the Yak-3. And why is it better, for example, CW-21 of the 1938 model year? In terms of dogfight?
                Or Corsair, since I’ve got a speech?
                By the way. Personally, I am not very enthusiastic about the activities of the Americans in aviation, with the exception of strategists. Forces worked. Yes, they have almost everything.
                1. Scratchy doll
                  Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 01: 42
                  0
                  Should have been in Hebrew?
                  For some reason I’m sure that the native English engines were better than their American counterparts. What should have been Yak-3 worse, with its sports and weight culture?
                  1. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 13 July 2017 08: 41
                    +1
                    Quote: Scratchy Doll
                    Should have been in Hebrew?

                    In the language you speak. In particular, you understand the meaning of the words “all,” “professionals,” and “west.”
                    Quote: Scratchy Doll
                    For some reason I’m sure that the native English motors were better than their American counterparts.

                    1. Open your mind to the example of Packard’s 9th model.
                    2. Expand your thoughts on the example of factories in Crew and Old Trafford.
                    Quote: Scratchy Doll
                    What should have been Yak-3 worse, with its sports and weight culture?

                    Why was the main anti-Japanese aircraft F6F, and not the CW-21?
                    1. Scratchy doll
                      Scratchy doll 13 July 2017 08: 48
                      0
                      Which of what was written here in Russian was not understood?
                      Best of all with the example of Whittle and Pegasus, with the piston it was the same.
                      1. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 13 July 2017 13: 31
                        +1
                        Quote: Scratchy Doll
                        Which of what was written here in Russian was not understood?

                        Well no. It is understandable that starting with "all the professionals in the west", you instantly switched to shkolota in google. It is characteristic, by the way, that you have not demonstrated anything on any of the issues raised except the opinion of shkolota.
                        Quote: Scratchy Doll
                        Whittle and Pegasus

                        And what does this have to do with wartime aircraft?
                        Quote: Scratchy Doll
                        piston was the same.

                        Tell me about the double nines of those years. In particular, the opinion of Polikarpov is interesting.
                    2. Scratchy doll
                      Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 02: 10
                      0
                      He was familiar with American, English, Israeli and Soviet aces.
                      American shkolota usually switches to me. You show her next opinion here.
                      More interesting is the percentage of crashed / released American AV-8B with English engines and their American licensed copies.
                      1. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 14 July 2017 04: 51
                        +1
                        Quote: Scratchy Doll
                        He was familiar with American, English, Israeli and Soviet aces.

                        Grandfather, it’s very sad, but the Internet is such a place - it is full of 3,14 blowers. So no, here you will have to demonstrate knowledge on the topic, and you can tell your grandchildren about your acquaintances.
                        Quote: Scratchy Doll
                        You show her next opinion here.

                        On "you", grandfather, with Brezhnev Yeltsin was customary to communicate in Fido, and now in Tinder. In the rest of the Internet, this is done mainly by underage b-lo. By the way, it is as poorly versed in texture as you are. Coincidence? I don’t think so.
                        Quote: Scratchy Doll
                        Interesting percentage of crashed / issued American AV-8B

                        In decent places, Grandpa, they banyat for trying to get off the conversation about WWII on the AV-8B. But specifically here you will not be offended, do not worry.
                    3. Scratchy doll
                      Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 05: 23
                      0
                      You jumped from the racing-sports Yak-3 to something else.
                      Already looked at the percentage of American disasters and you burst? In the story with the Pegasus for the Harriers, American dependence on British engines reached an even greater apotheosis than with the Merlins for the Mustangs before.
              2. mysch
                mysch 13 July 2017 23: 39
                +1
                our pilot, flying on p-51, said that it was a wonderful car ... personally, for me, it’s a duck anyway, but the words of the pilot of his pilot were worth a lot.
                1. Scratchy doll
                  Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 02: 15
                  0
                  very wonderful for what? One engine drove half of the B-17 bomb load.
                  1. mysch
                    mysch 15 July 2017 17: 18
                    0
                    Do you understand what you wrote?
                    1. Scratchy doll
                      Scratchy doll 16 July 2017 12: 06
                      0
                      About P-47 wrote. P-51 "Mare" as a non-escort fighter was even worse than him.
          2. Bask
            Bask 13 July 2017 11: 09
            +1
            Of course, no. Compare aircraft with different performance characteristics. It is interesting, what would happen to the yak at an altitude of 7 to 10 thousand meters. Probably TROUBLE !!! Barkhorn called the R-51 and Yak-9 when asked about the best Allied fighter. Or is it not a professional?
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 14 July 2017 05: 02
              0
              Quote: mysch
              this is a wonderful car ... personally, for me, duck is all the same, but the words of the pilot of his piloting are worth a lot.

              They do not cost anything. Po-2 is also a wonderful car, I assure you.
              Quote: Bask
              When asked about the best Allied fighter, Barkhorn called the R-51 and Yak-9

              One more. Well, Herr Barkhorn was a polite person, he didn’t send right away on to Google with such questions.
              What does the word “best” mean in this phrase?
              1. Bask
                Bask 14 July 2017 12: 54
                0
                Listen dear, change your tone please! I certainly do not pretend to know everything, but have been interested in aviation for a long time and, unlike you, I do not pretend to be the most intelligent. Maybe Barkhorn said this out of politeness, I don’t know (you probably know better, I probably knew him personally , since you are so categorical and with such aplomb make such statements). I’m inclined to think that he had in mind for fights at heights above 6 thousand meters Mustang is good, at medium and small Yak-9. This was his personal opinion, but still expert.
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 15 July 2017 04: 55
                  0
                  Quote: Bask
                  so categorically and with such aplomb make such statements

                  Actually, I'm making the same statement as a parrot. And it seems to me so banal that the reluctance to understand it causes genuine surprise. Again:
                  1. Yak-9 and Mustang - these are different planes, they are neither better nor worse. Like, for example, Stuart is no better and no worse than Pershing.
                  2. Mustang - a much more technically advanced machine than the Yak-9. Accordingly, if desired, the Americans could build (and began to build at the end of the 44th) machines, totally superior to the Yak-9 at the heights of attack aircraft. But the USSR at the heights of strategists could not do anything. Generally.
                  1. Scratchy doll
                    Scratchy doll 15 July 2017 05: 12
                    0
                    These are fighter planes. Yak-3 and Yak-9U killed everything, even Sleeps with Messer, Mustang all the more.
                    Mustang is technically more complex, but totally more sophisticated Yak.
                    If an “inconceivable” war had happened, the Americans would have nothing to oppose to a bunch of Jacob and Ilov, the Red Army Air Force, in turn, would have knocked out the boxes of their bombers with conventional non-high-altitude fighters with boosters (like the Argus engine with V-1).
                    When it became clear in provocations and training battles, this war therefore did not happen.
                    1. mysch
                      mysch 15 July 2017 17: 26
                      0
                      this is an epicrisis: a doctor in the studio !!! -IS ILL
                      1. Scratchy doll
                        Scratchy doll 16 July 2017 11: 51
                        0
                        Is there a veterinarian you also need to earn?
                        There were fighter bombers of special construction only with anti-aircraft missiles.
                        Eisenhower hesitated after an ultimatum in the summer of 1945 withdrew from the territory of the Soviet zone of occupation as pretty.
                      2. Scratchy doll
                        Scratchy doll 16 July 2017 12: 38
                        0
                        Machines with anti-tank engines were in service before the mass production of the MiG-15
                        It would be like later in Korea, where the F-86 could not cover the B-29 raids. Only in full force, and for Americans without options. Because at a low altitude in Europe in 1945, the P-51 Yakam was inferior. In the Korean War, using the superiority of the F-86 at low altitudes, they could continue to use at least tactical aircraft.
                  2. Bask
                    Bask 15 July 2017 18: 41
                    0
                    Kindly poke my nose where I wrote at least a word that the Yak-9 is better than the P-51. Unlike some comrades who write that Mustang flew thanks to varnish, I understand that Mustang flew thanks to a powerful engine, at altitudes higher 6 thousand meters had good maneuverability due to the laminar wing had a more perfect sight K-14. Well, and all that is so different that it's just too lazy to write.
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 15 July 2017 23: 05
                      0
                      Quote: Bask
                      Unlike some comrades who write that Mustang flew

                      Mattresses all lie, he never flew. Mustang is an American horse, horses do not fly. This is Kubrick filmed in Hollywood, called Columbia Pictures wassat
                      Quote: Bask
                      Please kindly poke my nose where I wrote at least a word that the Yak-9 is better than the P-51

                      It’s not a matter of whether the Yak-9 is better or worse, but in the category “better”, and even with reference to the enemy’s opinion.
                      The cobra was better than Thunder. Thunder was better than Cobra. Both that, and another - the truth. And these are not memoirs, but official conclusions. Do you know these stories, or need clarification?
                      1. Bask
                        Bask 16 July 2017 09: 29
                        0
                        Good. Come on, up to 3-4 thousand meters was preferable to the Yak, above the P-51.
                      2. Scratchy doll
                        Scratchy doll 16 July 2017 11: 53
                        0
                        Even higher is the Me-262, which is not a fighter at all.
                      3. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 16 July 2017 12: 49
                        0
                        Quote: Bask
                        Let’s say, up to 3-4 thousand meters, the Yak was higher, above the P-51.

                        am
                        Strictly speaking, Herr Barkhorn said the opposite. He said that at the height, the Yak would be better, and below - the Mustang. Better for a German.
                        Great again
                        1. Was the Yak-3/9 / La-7 significantly better than Cobra? If so, why did the Guards IAP fly on the cobras? If not, why was the 323rd wing of the air corps in Italy transplanted from cobras to thanders?
                        2. Suppose Aiki learned from the fakap in Normandy when the Liberators were engaged in ground support, and instructed you to form normal tactical aviation immediately. For cars, HMV, there can be no options: only double-vaspi, only F4U, only A-26. Herr Barkhorn, what do you say?
                      4. Scratchy doll
                        Scratchy doll 16 July 2017 13: 30
                        0
                        1. Kozhedub flew to La, not to Cobra. For a shorter period, he shot down more than Pokryshkin on Cobra. From Bari flew on the Yak-9.
                        The cobra was a defective stormtrooper going to the USSR in LL, they could be changed in the west to P-47 for convenience with supplies.
                        2. Fond of spiritualism?
        3. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 12 July 2017 23: 33
          +1
          Quote: nizhegorodec
          And they would try in a real battle, where who is higher, that winner, but over the entire range of heights ...

          The Americans had different fighters. Specifically, Mustang (probably talking about D) is an escort machine for high-altitude bombers. Its maximum take-off weight is 5,5 tons, against 3 for the Yak-9. For a mid-altitude ride, there were others cars. Basically - the fleet and ILC.
          1. hohol95
            hohol95 12 July 2017 23: 45
            +1
            And there was a lot of Navy and ILC in the territory of Europe?
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 12 July 2017 23: 47
              +1
              Quote: hohol95
              And there was a lot of Navy and ILC in the territory of Europe?

              Virtually none at all. And in FIG it is there? Shoot down allies?

              If suddenly it will be strongly necessary, and Spitov will be enough with a slide.
              1. hohol95
                hohol95 12 July 2017 23: 51
                +2
                Spitfayers and other Tempestas are great bantan shelves!
                And what did their overseas friends use at the European theater of war?
                Mustangs and Thunderbolts, Lightnings, possibly Kingcobras! If there are additions, complete the list.
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 12 July 2017 23: 58
                  +1
                  Quote: hohol95
                  Mustangs and Lightnings, possibly Kingcobras! If there are additions, complete the list.

                  The Americans had practically no 63s. 51st B / C and D for escort, 47th old series for attack. 38th were, but in Europe they are out of place.
                  What’s the question?
                  1. hohol95
                    hohol95 13 July 2017 00: 07
                    +1
                    And what was the phrase about the fleet and the Marine Corps?
                    On a European theater of operations, Soviet pilots could only encounter the models of American fighters described above!
                    And why did you decide that Lightnings were out of place in Europe?
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 13 July 2017 00: 35
                      +1
                      Quote: hohol95
                      And what was the phrase about the fleet and the Marine Corps?

                      Moreover, torpedo bombers, and dive bombers, fly (relatively to the Fortresses) low. There were other fighters for their protection.
                      Quote: hohol95
                      And why did you decide that Lightnings were out of place in Europe?

                      Since flying over the Reich during the day is not for Yamamotu to shoot over the ocean. You can break off hard.
                      Quote: hohol95
                      On a European theater of operations, Soviet pilots could only encounter the models of American fighters described above!

                      I understand that this is hard to believe now, but the above-described models on the European theater of war fought with German cars, not Soviet ones. And the German pilots crawled toward them for 10 km, because it was there that there was a big beautiful battle box with democracy.
                      It would be necessary for the Allies to strengthen the lower floor - they would have found something, I assure you.
                      1. hohol95
                        hohol95 13 July 2017 08: 07
                        +2
                        Here you are "persistent" what ...
                        Or, the "random" collisions of American aviation with the Soviet one at the end of 1944 and the beginning of 1945 are not examples of possible variants of events during a direct collision of the allies with the USSR after "crushing the Nazi HYDRA". And all these "accidental" clashes were probing our Air Force for "lice."
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 13 July 2017 08: 50
                        +1
                        Quote: hohol95
                        all of these "random" clashes were probing our Air Force for "lice."

                        You are absolutely right. And the Halsey planes shot down over PX were a rehearsal of the civil war, probably.
          2. tomket
            tomket 13 July 2017 01: 00
            +4
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            There were other cars available for mid-altitude cruising. Basically - the fleet and ILC.

            Is this a Hellcat for small and medium altitude cruising? 6 tons of horseradish? Or a corsair with the same weight?
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 13 July 2017 08: 12
              +1
              Quote: tomket
              This is a Hellket for small and medium altitude cruising

              No. It is for verticals. And Zero tried to spin.
              Quote: tomket
              Or a corsair with the same weight?

              Similarly.
              By the way, how to watch the weight of a fighter? In kg? Or, for example, in kg / sq.m. and kg / hp?
        4. fighter angel
          fighter angel 13 July 2017 14: 21
          +2
          No, dear ... Just the opposite! The Mustang was waiting for the soaring Shatsky, having a clear ADVANTAGE.
  27. Glory1974
    Glory1974 13 July 2017 00: 47
    +2
    Pokryshkin said in his interview that he loved the AeroCobra plane for its powerful weapons. Cannon 1 * 37 mm, 2 * 20 mm, several large-caliber machine guns. His words: "I redid all the weapons on one trigger. Go to the fritz, press the trigger, it falls apart. Beauty!"
    None of our aces have ever crashed our planes.
    1. Bask
      Bask 13 July 2017 11: 03
      +1
      There were no twenty twenty-millimeter guns on the Cobra.
      1. Glory1974
        Glory1974 13 July 2017 13: 15
        0
        There were no twenty twenty-millimeter guns on the Cobra.


        Maybe there weren't two, but one was definitely.
        from the wiki:
        weaponry
        Cannon:
        1 × 37 mm M4 gun with 30 cartridges or
        1 × 20 mm M1 gun with 60 cartridges (D-1, D-2)
        2 × 12,7 mm M2 machine guns according to 270 pat. (on D-2 by 200) each in the nose of the fuselage
        4 × 7,62 mm machine guns according to 1000 pat. everyone in the wing
        1. Bask
          Bask 13 July 2017 15: 28
          0
          It was on the modification of the R-400 and not American, but Spanish-syuza and only in the British.
  28. Operator
    Operator 13 July 2017 01: 09
    0
    tomket,
    Not only did everyone have the opportunity to choose the technique on which they could fight: in 1944-45, Kozhedub and Pokryshkin had such an opportunity - and they made their choice against the surrogate Yak-3, not to mention the Yak-9.
    1. tomket
      tomket 13 July 2017 07: 41
      +2
      Quote: Operator
      in 1944-45, Kozhedub and Pokryshkin had such an opportunity - and they made their choice against the surrogate Yak-3, not to mention the Yak-9.

      A reference in the memoirs of Kozhedub, where he makes a choice between Yak, La and Cobra.
      1. Operator
        Operator 13 July 2017 10: 33
        0
        I’m talking about the fact that Kozhedub and Pokryshkin did not choose Yak-3, and not about reflecting this fact in official officious propaganda.
        1. tomket
          tomket 13 July 2017 11: 02
          +1
          Quote: Operator
          I'm talking about the fact that Kozhedub and Pokryshkin didn’t choose Yak-3,

          Well, bring this fact.
          1. Operator
            Operator 13 July 2017 11: 11
            0
            How about perceiving reality? What do you think these two pilots flew on? laughing
  29. Glory1974
    Glory1974 13 July 2017 01: 37
    +3
    This photo captures eight people - the heroes of the Soviet Union, who destroyed 20 full Luftwaffe squadrons of Germany.








    1th row from left to right:
    Twice Hero of the Soviet Union fighter pilot Dmitry Borisovich Glinka (about 300 sorties and 50 personally shot down enemy planes),
    Three times Hero of the Soviet Union fighter pilot Ivan Nikitovich Kozhedub (the best ally of the allies of the Second World War, 330 sorties and 62 personally shot down enemy aircraft),
    Twice Hero of the Soviet Union fighter pilot Pavel Yakovlevich Golovachev (385 sorties and 26 personally shot down enemy planes).
    2th row from left to right:
    Twice Hero of the Soviet Union fighter pilot Vitaliy Ivanovich Popkov (325 sorties and 41 downed enemy aircraft in person and 1 in the group),
    Twice Hero of the Soviet Union fighter pilot Andrei Yegorovich Borovykh (475 sorties and 32 shot down enemy planes personally and 14 in the group).
    3th row from left to right:
    Twice Hero of the Soviet Union attack pilot Alexander Nikolayevich Efimov (222 sorties, 1 shot down enemy aircraft personally and 6 in the group, during the attack, crashed and burned 9 trains, 47 tanks, 28 aircraft and many other enemy equipment),
    Twice Hero of the Soviet Union, ground attack pilot Anatoly Konstantinovich Nedbaylo (219 sorties, 5 shot down enemy planes personally, during the attack, destroyed 17 planes, burned 30 vehicles, 16 tanks and SPGs, crashed ten railway cars, crushed XN artillery batteries and XNN XNN ),
    Twice Hero of the Soviet Union attack pilot Vasily Ilyich Mykhlik (188 sorties, inflicted heavy damage on the enemy in manpower and equipment).
    Source: pressa.tv
  30. Andrey NM
    Andrey NM 13 July 2017 05: 40
    +3
    tomket, right now I don’t remember the source, if in principle, I’ll find it. When the French began to master Yaki, one of the commanders of the “Normandy” had the opportunity to fly on the “Lavochkin”. He was delighted, even tried to petition for a “transplant” of them from Jacob to La, but they did not give it. Well, we must take into account that the French did not immediately start fighting on the Yak-3, it was already in the process that they were rearmed with the Yak-1 and Yak-9. Normandy-Neman was formed in 1942, if memory serves, and in general began to fight almost from the middle of 1943. Then the Yak-3 was not there, and the La-5FN had just appeared.
    1. tomket
      tomket 13 July 2017 07: 28
      +2
      Quote: Andrey NM
      He was delighted, even tried to petition for a "transplant" of them from Jacob to La, but they did not give

      There, one of the commanders was for a transfer to La, the other for Yak, the Jacob party defeated.
      1. unknown
        unknown 13 July 2017 10: 01
        0
        There was information, now I don’t remember the source that Normandy started with Thunderbolts.
        1. kugelblitz
          kugelblitz 14 July 2017 07: 24
          0
          It was easier for the French to transfer to Yak, since the prototype engine was familiar to the technicians, as well as the piloting technique was close to the Devatines. And the nightmare with 7 arms of La Ruda played.
  31. Bask
    Bask 13 July 2017 12: 12
    +1
    I just re-read the article about the Yak-9 and R-38 combat ("Aviation and Cosmonautics" 11/2013 "," Fighting with Frames on November 7, 1944 ". I apologize for the fraud for the losses in this battle. I had an air battle three Yak-9s (modifications: 2 Yak-9t and 1Yak-9m) and two P-38Ls were shot down. Two of our pilots died (Jr. Viktor Viktor Shipulya, L Dmitry Dmitry Krivonogih), one was wounded (L- t. Zhestovsky) .Another P-38 was shot down from the ground during the attack of the 886-IAP airfield, the pilot made an emergency landing near the airfield and received severe burns, was saved by a Serbian peasant. Americans killed in aerial combat died. led by Krasyukov, who had flown to Yak-3, did not participate in the battle, as he received an order to pull them away from the airfield without entering into battle with the Allies. During the attack on the Soviet column, the commander of the 6th Guards Corps, General Kotov, and 34 soldiers were killed. Anyone interested in the details, read the article, everything is described in detail in it.
  32. fighter angel
    fighter angel 13 July 2017 13: 57
    +2
    Quote: mysch
    Are you kind that you seriously think that the Yak-9 is doing spitfire? where have you read such magic? Spent flights, sleeping against la-7 and Yak .. showed that if you can still wrestle with la7 with your pet, then Yak against sleep-Corpse, in principle, and la lost sleep on bends, a spitfire with different shape of wings was good at all heights! there are no chances for la-yak to sleep LBS 42-7 series there was no chance at all — he made them with a bang — it’s been tested by us in aerial training battles. But the blast attack machine is the first and the thunderbolt with the high-altitude driver accompanying the bombers — they have another specialty kittyhook that they screwed here, then they would have turned on the donkey. Among other things, one of the r-40 pilots praised, if the pilot was at the proper level, it wasn’t a bad machine, at least this machine could stand up for itself

    On this occasion, I will bring you a fact: "Normandy" was returning to France and met at one of the intermediate airfields with fellow countrymen, "free France" pilots who fought on Spitfire, Mk9. We decided to conduct a demonstration air battle - Yak-3 against Spitfire Mk9, R. Marki flew on Yak. This duel after a series of dizzying maneuvers, according to the COMMON OPINION of BOTH SIDES, ENDED THE TOTAL VICTORY OF YAK-3 !!! Another example: the captain Shatsky’s duel in Bari on the Yak-9D against Mustang is also the YAKA unquestioning victory, despite the fact that Mustang had the advantage at the beginning of the fight, already in the air !!! And Savitsky’s “fight” against a pair of Tempest ??? And a reprimand from Georgy Konstantinovich for this "victory" ???? So do not idealize Spitf - he is not so good ...
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 13 July 2017 22: 17
      +1
      Quote: fighter angel
      So don't idealize Spitf

      Suppose, for a moment, that your stories are true, and not just regular hunting stories. Then one of three.
      1. Either all training fights of any yaks with anyone were in favor of the yaks.
      2. Or you have only been transferred stories in one direction, and all the rest - not translated.
      3. Or all the "demonstration fights" described by you took place on the horizontals, low speeds and heights, while "in life" fought on the verticals and maximum speeds and heights (naturally, only those who could afford it).
      Which option would you bet money on?
      1. Scratchy doll
        Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 05: 51
        +1
        All training fights with the Yak-3 were in favor of the Jacob. With the Yak-9, not all but most. Therefore, the Yankees hunt quickly disappeared with the Yaks.
        Translations of this from English and French to Russian are.
        Get together at those heights and regimes that would have to fight.
      2. fighter angel
        fighter angel 14 July 2017 09: 27
        +1
        Yaks, and specifically Yak-3 and Yak-9 of later modifications, were intended for battles at altitudes from 0 to 3-4 km, in this range they were superior to ANY OPPONENT !!! Including the vertical maneuver! Yakovlev achieved his goal - a "corridor" for the actions of IL-2 and Peshek from Tu-2, from the ground to 3-4 km. has been completely cleared! Where to put the money is your business ...
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 15 July 2017 14: 02
          0
          Quote: Scratchy Doll
          Therefore, the Yankees hunt quickly disappeared with the Yaks.

          Quote: Scratchy Doll
          Get together at those heights and regimes that would have to fight.

          Quote: fighter angel
          exceeded ANY OPPONENT

          I agree with the latter in a relaxed form. To the typical enemy of the 45th year - all the same fock and messers - they were no longer significantly inferior in air combat. Subject to the remaining circumstances of the 45th year.
          And now a question for connoisseurs (there is no need to worry about the sketchidol).
          At 44, Americans figured out a little how fighter, and issued overdose orders for two new main models.
          1. What are they rearming?
          2. Are there any results of meetings of these vehicles with the Yak-3/9 / La-7?
          1. Scratchy doll
            Scratchy doll 15 July 2017 15: 02
            0
            Any enemy and ally Yak-3 was superior. Yak-9 with M-107 excelled qualitatively.
            Decks are always inferior to aerodrome aircraft. The Americans did not understand much even with what db Jet Saber. It was heavier than the MiG-15 for a whole loaded gazelle.
            Tell the world while I look.
  33. fighter angel
    fighter angel 13 July 2017 14: 18
    +1
    Quote: yehat
    Lugg-3 was better than his reputation. The plane was hindered by 3 things - poor communication, low qualification of average pilots and lack of experience in piloting from energy conservation, as well as the current charter, which simply prevented the aircraft from being used effectively. With competent piloting, the Lagg-3 could compete seriously with the bf-109 f2 / f4. For example, Galchenko proved it.

    Absolutely at "10". Andrei Kulagin, 249 IAP, subsequently 163 Guards and Infantry Aviation Regiments, 26 personal shot down, all captured on LaGG-3. And there were Grigoriev and Alelyukhin ... also on LaGGs.
  34. fighter angel
    fighter angel 13 July 2017 14: 26
    0
    Quote: mysch
    In the Kuban smashed? Whom? Did Pokryshkin tell you this? -Here at leisure, look at the material, there the people of Kuban are sorting your regiments-3 historians-marvel at the defeat-scream
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTvb2TNqFY0&l
    ist = PLu_fS5J5vx6dOKfChymJEfoAWDVUtiBEp & index =
    16

    You offer Zefirova ... With his obvious bias towards the enemy ... There is no faith in him. There are more objective sources, and this Zefirov is out of date ... He hasn’t got anything new lately.
    1. Bask
      Bask 13 July 2017 15: 35
      +1
      I can suggest reading Khazanov or Rastrenin, or they are also in the direction of the enemy. There are also articles in magazines on this topic that indicate the superiority of Soviet aviation in quantity, but not in the air. After the same Kuban, the Kursk Bulge and again the superiority in quantity over the enemy but not in the air
      1. fighter angel
        fighter angel 13 July 2017 16: 32
        +2
        It’s incomprehensible to listen to something, but how did we win the war in the air, at what stage? I don’t know what kind of work you are hinting to me if the archives of the Ministry of Defense and the Air Force in particular are not open and declassified to the end. Even now. The exact loss figures for us and for them on the Kursk Bulge, do you know, for example? Or, again, “there”, in Europe and beyond a large puddle they know better than us? For example, there is a source claiming that in the air battle over the Kuban the loss ratio was 1 to 1.2 and in our favor ... But you prefer to consider that “from there” our history is better known, and they always tell the truth and nothing but the truth ?
        1. Bask
          Bask 13 July 2017 18: 43
          +1
          The book "Aviation in the Battle of Kursk. The failure of the operation" Citadel "by Khazanov D. Comparison of losses according to the reports of the warring parties. That is, for example, the Germans declared on Day N that they shot down 5 Soviet aircraft. They take Soviet reports of losses on this day and on this sector of the front they’re also comparing. Also the other way. In the magazines Aviation and Cosmonautics, Aviation and Time, Aviamaster there are a lot of articles on this subject. Andrei Sokolov “Falcons washed with blood.” All this is modern Russian literature, all contain references to the TsAMO or reports of the quartermaster general, to the memories of our pilots.
          That is, it costs so much to want and read. I prefer to turn on my head and think about what I'm reading. When the author writes that the German pilots had a raid on the main plane (on which he will fight) 200 hours apart from the raid on training aircraft, and Soviet pilot 20-30 hours of a general raid (without firing, without flying to fly over), I think a lot of intelligence is not necessary to understand who is better. I have nothing against Soviet pilots and treat them with respect. If you are satisfied with the truth that the Soviet Air Force surpassed the Luftwaffe throughout the war quantitatively could not gain superiority until the 44th, well this is your personal opinion and I am not going to change it.
          Regarding Western sources. The same Schwabedissen in his analysis speaks normally of Soviet pilots. But you need everyone to say that the Soviet pilots are the very best, and the rest are so close. For me, both British and American and Soviet and German pilots These are young guys who did their duty, risking their lives every day and more than once. After the war, more than 70 years passed and the veterans of this war reconciled long ago. So maybe it’s enough to react so fiercely when they say that the Soviet pilots were not the most skilled. Yes, there were pilots who were not inferior to the German ones, but mostly they were poorly trained young guys who paid for their experience with blood and sometimes life.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 13 July 2017 22: 20
            0
            Quote: Bask
            were not the most skilled.

            Skillful, inept are empty words. But trained - not trained - these are numbers.
            1. Bask
              Bask 14 July 2017 12: 59
              0
              I indicated the hours of raids of German and Soviet pilots, pointed to the training scheme. You need the numbers of the percentage of trained, not trained, look.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 15 July 2017 04: 33
                0
                Quote: Bask
                You need percentage numbers

                No, I don’t need anything from you.
                I would like to emphasize that if we are talking about aviation on both sides, this is a conversation about training standards. As soon as we start talking about skill - that is, individual quality - we immediately go into writing. Kozhedub, Hartmann, that’s all. Occupation is popular, but empty.
                1. Bask
                  Bask 15 July 2017 18: 45
                  0
                  I agree!!!
          2. fighter angel
            fighter angel 14 July 2017 10: 06
            +2
            And regarding the authors, Zefirov, with his allegations that in the Kuban the Red Army Air Force from Yakov had Yak-1, model 41, “with garrot” and a small number of Yak-7B, as a historian, for one place, and to the “museum”, as they say, no offense ... Apparently he didn’t know that in the winter of 42 near Stalingrad the Yak-9 and Yak-1B fought. And as for Khazanov, I personally prefer Rastrenin, his last work, “Luftwaffe Stormtroopers. Myths and Reality,” where the “Poodle-Moodle phenomenon” is debunked in detail, is laid out and reasoned in detail. Or else Viktor Bakursky, in A&C, is also much more impartial, more competent and believable than Zefirov and Khazanov. My personal opinion. I will stay with him. You have not convinced me.
            1. Bask
              Bask 14 July 2017 13: 15
              0
              Remain, it’s your personal business. But the examples you cite once again prove your selectivity. In the same journal, Aviation and Cosmonautics, there are a bunch of articles of impartial, competent and credible ones. For example, “Forgotten Battle of General Ionov” Mikhail Timin, “June 22, 1941 .-Victory Day of the 67th IAP of the heroic regiment that did not become the Guards "Timin," The Battle of the Orans.
              1. fighter angel
                fighter angel 14 July 2017 14: 35
                +1
                You have no doubt, Timin’s articles have been read by me, comprehended, I respect the author, I wrote impartially, honestly, BASED on ACTUAL MATERIAL. I look forward to his next work with interest. As for the aforementioned authors, Khazanov and especially Zefirov, in my opinion, the huge excess and bias towards the Luftwaffe is too obvious. Therefore, I ignore them and the like.
                1. Bask
                  Bask 14 July 2017 16: 06
                  0
                  As I already told you, I respect normal and adequate opinions. Well, as for Khazanov and Zefirov, I do it for everyone. I myself am not particularly impressed with Zefirov, but his book on the Knights of the Knight's Cross is interesting and has no alternative.
  35. fighter angel
    fighter angel 13 July 2017 14: 39
    +3
    Quote: mysch
    VK 107 did not go into the series — how many pilots I didn’t re-read who flew on the Yaks — everyone flew 105 dvigle-Hispanic-Suise full comfort

    Well, how can I tell you ... From the second half of 1944 on the Yak-9u with the VK-107 SUCCESSFULLY FLYED AND WAR: 42 Guards, 149 IAP, 163 IAP ... and this is just the beginning! So the VK-107 went into production, and how it went !!!
  36. fighter angel
    fighter angel 13 July 2017 14: 53
    +2
    Quote: mysch
    Well, in principle, what does not suit you? here you are in the La-5-7 simulator, I’m sleeping, everything is fast there and other characteristics correspond ... The tests were carried out after the war, with those models of spitfire that were in service with the Moscow air defense and the Moscow region, and Yak and La lost their sleep in maneuverable battles at all heights, look for the information yourself .... and more
    Where have you seen God?

    Respected!!! Oh, since about the simulator, your Spitf is not suitable for Yaku and soles. On turns, even if I’m on a simple Yak-9- I WILL DO YOU! Earth eat. Spitf is very poor in rate of climb, a military U-turn makes it much worse, unstable in flight, even worse than Ishachok, and wing armament - accuracy of hits below the baseboard. The wing is overloaded, and it just “plays”, so it falls like drunk on steep turns, the angular speed of the roll is great, it takes too long to turn. By the way, that’s why the Foka 190 scared the English! Spitf couldn’t flip over so quickly and switch from turn to turn, in the FV-190 battle dictated conditions to Spitf, and not vice versa. Well, purely in ergonomics, the cabin is very cramped, it is very difficult to leave it. The Ispano guns - if the whole B / C in the Foku or the Syden (do we know this?) Shove, that's not a fact that you will fill up !!! And the machine guns 7.9, although there will even be 6 or 8 pieces, are absolutely useless rattles. That’s if you walk through the simulators ...
  37. fighter angel
    fighter angel 13 July 2017 15: 41
    +2
    Quote: mysch
    Yakovlev made a ballerina at the end of the war — planes came off, etc., dviga overheating and fires were frequent ...

    Well, come on, dear amateur of simulators (I could be wrong, if that, excuse me ...) understand in order. Firstly, there was no Yak with the name "ballerina". So Yak was never called pilots, respectively, and you should not "drive" here to think up. Second: Yakov’s planes didn’t come off (unless supersonic, of course, was accelerated) - it was about breaking the skin from the plane. A manufacturing defect — on a paint-and-varnish plant, one plant wanted to save money — it didn’t work. It was eliminated in a few weeks. Overheating of the engines - on the 105th they were not there if the radiator flaps worked correctly. Overheating took place on VK-107, but if the technical personnel and the flight personnel correctly operated the equipment, in accordance with the guidelines, there were NO PROBLEMS! And with the fires, you are probably confusing Yaki with the early FV-190s, so they “burned” and not bad at the very beginning of operation.
  38. fighter angel
    fighter angel 13 July 2017 15: 44
    +1
    Quote: ignoto
    There was information, now I don’t remember the source that Normandy started with Thunderbolts.

    Something from an unknown area ... They wanted to transplant them to IL-2, it’s a known fact, to make the ShAE, since at first the French had "not really ..."
  39. hohol95
    hohol95 13 July 2017 16: 43
    +2
    Cherry nine,
    Why Americans shot their own planes is a question of their eternal passion to shoot at everything that moves ...
    Our anti-aircraft gunners and pilots did the same and shot down their own bombers, fighters.
    But the raids on the territory liberated by the Red Army - a clear probing of the capabilities of the Soviet Air Force.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 13 July 2017 22: 29
      0
      Quote: hohol95
      Why did the Americans shoot their own planes?

      Quote: hohol95
      But the raids on the territory

      Well, that is, so their fingers on the trigger trigger itch all the time, but as soon as they see the Soviet, they immediately become directly zerg with the supermind. No one mows, no one confuses anything.
      Well, OK.
      Quote: hohol95
      But the raids on the territory liberated by the Red Army

      And there was no one except the spacecraft in this area already? What did she forget then?
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 13 July 2017 22: 49
        0
        Four “panthers” of the 150th SS Panzer Brigade were to play a rather unusual role during the offensive in the Ardennes. This brigade, commanded by SS Obersturmbannfuhrer Otto Skorzeny, was intended to conduct combat and sabotage operations in the rear of the allied forces. Soldiers who knew English were recruited into it, they were armed with captured weapons, equipped with captured vehicles and were dressed in American military uniforms. The Panthers were refitted in such a way that they looked like American M10 tank destroyers. However, the cunning plan of the Germans quickly failed. They did not take into account, as the British said, "the Yankees' stupid habit of shooting anywhere and whatever." On February 21, 1945, the fake M10 stumbled upon the military guard of the 120th American Infantry Division. Private Francis Currey, not paying any attention to the white stars on the sides of military vehicles, set fire to the first tank with a bazooka shot, and fired the rest with gun grenades. The crews left the damaged tanks. The “Shermans” who approached soon finished off these “Trojan horses”. As a result, Private Francis Currey was awarded the Medal of Honor.
      2. hohol95
        hohol95 13 July 2017 22: 55
        +1
        The shelling of their own equipment, especially armored ground, was quite common - on the Kursk Bullet Panther knocked out a TIGER. In the literature, a lot of such examples!
        And the pilots “sinned” this, especially if they knew about the enemy’s trophy equipment in their own country -
        On November 2, the link, which included Kostylev and Kaberov, intercepted in the area of ​​the Sommers island and destroyed the Finnish Security Council (a Soviet-made bomber that Finland received as a trophy). Later, Kostylev, flying with Kaberov, mistakenly shot down his I-153 fighter, controlled by Lieutenant Colonel Biskup, the chief of staff, who survived by a lucky chance - pilots out of habit took him for a Finnish pilot.
        And what did the valiant British forget at Wheeler-Bocage? Released or stopped on cider?
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 14 July 2017 05: 11
          +1
          Quote: hohol95
          They did not take into account, as the British said, "the Yankees' stupid habit of shooting anywhere and whatever

          Wow, you know the story of Panther Skorzeny. That is, shooting at white stars is from a "stupid habit", and at red stars is, like, reconnaissance in battle, secret order Rockefeller Donovan? And intelligence by single kamikaze?
          1. Scratchy doll
            Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 05: 56
            0
            Single was Kozhedub, whom the Americans tried to fill up when flying not in their area of ​​responsibility.
          2. hohol95
            hohol95 14 July 2017 08: 31
            +2
            On October 1950, 16.17, at 80 p.m. local time, two American F-49C Shooting Star fighters from XNUMX FBGs invaded Soviet airspace and, after diving nearly a hundred kilometers, attacked the Soviet military field airfield Sukhaya Rechka.
            And this, too, was an attack of solitary kamikaze? Wrong 3 bast shoes on the map ...
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 15 July 2017 04: 22
              0
              Quote: hohol95
              Wrong 3 bast shoes on the map ...

              Quote: hohol95
              almost a hundred kilometers

              That is, at 7-10 minutes of summer in Shootingstar.
              Quote: hohol95
              was this also an attack of single kamikaze?

              It was a navigation mistake. Such was the position of G. Truman И government of the USSR.
              Of course, after 20 years, different military pensioners began to tell that they did not agree with Comrade Stalin on this issue, but I would still take his opinion in this particular case as a basis.
              1. Scratchy doll
                Scratchy doll 15 July 2017 04: 35
                0
                Position for the public. There are no such navigational errors. Before the strike, the plan of the target is always studied, and the terrain of it.
                About the planned attack on IL-12, "your exclusivity" when will it respond?
  40. hohol95
    hohol95 13 July 2017 21: 56
    +2
    mysch,
    In the summer of 1940, the people's commissar of defense, Marshal Tymoshenko wrote to Stalin: “The Soviet Union needs to be ready to fight on two fronts: in the west against Germany, supported by Italy, Hungary, Romania and Finland, and in the east against Japan as an open enemy or an enemy holding the position of armed neutrality, always able to go into an open clash. "
    The Japanese against the USSR at any time, not counting the powerful fleet, could throw 50 divisions, over 1000 tanks and 3000 aircraft into battle. Our country had to prepare for a major war on two fronts, in the east and west at the same time.
    One of the border guards at the outpost in the Primorsky Territory recalled the everyday life of 1941: “The Japanese behaved aggressively. In daylight, we didn’t show up at the border - we’ll certainly fire ... ”
    A similar situation persisted throughout the years of World War II. For example, in 1942 alone, in Primorye alone, over 500 sabotage sorties and crossings of the land border of the USSR by groups and units of Japanese troops were recorded.
    As of June 1941, the Far Eastern Front totaled 432 thousand soldiers, 27 thousand machine guns, almost 5 thousand guns, 4 thousand mortars, almost 3 thousand light tanks and 1940 aircraft (another 1053 aircraft were in service with the Pacific Fleet and the Amur River Flotilla), 20 thousand trucks , 8 thousand tractors and 84 thousand horses. Since the danger in the West was considered paramount, the Far East received a minimum of new weapons - for example, in 1941 there was not a single new KV and T-34 tank.
    New sea mines were primarily used in the Baltic and the Black Sea, so the Far East had to defend themselves with royal mines produced in 1908-1914. Some of them, due to their long storage periods, were rusted and broken by storms, for example, by 1943, only 10% of the mines delivered at the beginning of the war had survived on the approaches to Vladivostok.
    In the cities of Primorye and the Khabarovsk Territory, all basements of stone buildings at the crossroads of streets were converted into anti-tank and machine-gun pillboxes. Throughout the war, until 1945, bomb shelters were also prepared in the Far East, only 2303 were built in Vladivostok, and 7129 in the Khabarovsk Territory, which made it possible to hide 57% of the total population from possible bombing.
    The likelihood of a Japanese attack decreased only in 1943, when Tokyo not only got involved in a grueling war against the United States in the Pacific Islands, but also finally became convinced that Hitler was not able to defeat the forces of the USSR in the west.
    Therefore, until the end of 1942, during the period of the greatest threat of attack from Japan, all formations and units of the first echelon of Soviet troops in the Far East were brought to wartime states and were not located in barracks, but in previously opened and prepared trenches. At night, 50% of soldiers and commanders were on duty at combat positions.
    Despite daily combat training, the Far Eastern troops ate at the “third rear norm”, that is, they actually lived from hand to mouth.
    Valentin Gayeva, then a lieutenant of the Soviet army, recalled the formation of a new infantry brigade near the village of Hanko, Primorsky Territory in 1942: “They issued very long rifles with a bayonet. Moreover, these were old Mosin rifles of the 1891 model, on the butts of many of them the imperial monogram was knocked out ... The third rear norm. It was supposed to be 650 grams of bread per day, but so many have never been given. You always feel hungry. Fortunately, we stood in the hills, so we managed to get extra rations, hunted birds, although most of the goats were shot. So it was possible to survive ... The mood was fighting. All soldiers and commanders asked for the front. We carefully prepared the soldiers, conducted a lot of tactics classes, the soldiers often shot at targets. In addition, night marches were organized, march-throws were carried out daily in full calculation ... ”
    By mid-1942, in the Far East, 92% of young people aged 18–20 years were called up for military service in the USSR. In total, 517 thousand people were mobilized during the years of the war in the Khabarovsk Territory and Primorye - half of all workers in industry and agriculture who worked before the war went to the front to defend the Fatherland.
    Here so quietly and calmly lived in the Far East ...
    Just like in occupied Denmark, Holland, Luxembourg ...
  41. hohol95
    hohol95 13 July 2017 22: 15
    +2
    mysch,
    About Turkey -
    At the same time, rumors about territorial claims and the threat of Turkey from the Soviet Union were actively exaggerated in Ankara [38]. Turkey’s turn from pro-British to pro-German was executed four days before the start of World War II on June 18, 1941 by the conclusion of an agreement on friendship and non-aggression with Germany, signed by Turkish Foreign Minister Sarajoglu and German Ambassador to Ankara von Papen.
    With the outbreak of World War II, the Turkish government officially declared its neutrality in the conflict, but at the same time carried out a partial mobilization in the provinces bordering the territory of the Soviet Union. In addition, people over 60 years old and reserve officers over 65 years old were called up for military service. Some historians attribute these actions to the need to fill the shortage of military units in the eastern provinces caused by the displacement of the 40th army in the region of Thrace. Be that as it may, these actions aroused serious concern in Moscow. Stalin in the summer and autumn of 1941 repeatedly declared that he was not sure of maintaining Turkish neutrality.
    At the Moscow talks in September 1941, Lord Beaverbrook even proposed to encourage Turkey for maintaining its neutrality, but Stalin, not being sure that Turkey would not enter the war on the side of Germany in the future, rejected this proposal.
    Separate concern in the Soviet Union was caused by the visit of the Turkish military delegation to the Eastern Front in the fall of 1941, led by the head of the military academy, General Ali Fuad Erden.
    The situation with Turkey became especially tense in the summer of 1942, after the start of the German offensive on Stalingrad and the Caucasus. Mobilization was carried out in Turkey; its armed forces reached a force of 1. With the beginning of the German offensive, about 000 of them were transferred by Turks to the Soviet-Turkish border in the Batumi region. In total, from July 000, against the Soviet Transcaucasian Front (re-formed on May 750, 000), the Turkish army deployed 1942 army corps, 1 infantry divisions, of which 1942 divisions arrived during July, 4 cavalry divisions and one motorized rifle brigade. According to other sources, the Turkish group at the border at that time numbered about 16 divisions. At the same time, the number of Soviet troops on the border did not exceed 7 thousand (2 armies), and most of them were infantry divisions. According to the widespread belief in Soviet historiography, the Turkish government was ready to enter the war on the side of Germany immediately after the fall of Stalingrad. But the counterattack of the Red Army on the Soviet-German front, which began to curtail these plans.
    After the defeat of German troops near Stalingrad and the landing of British-American troops in North Africa in November 1942, Turkey’s entry into the war on the Axis side was no longer raised. On the contrary, the allies of the anti-Hitler coalition began to make efforts for Turkey to enter the war against Germany in the spring of 1943. At the same time, Churchill attached special importance to the early entry of Turkey into the war. The Turkish theater of operations made it possible to postpone the opening of the Second Front to the Balkans and thereby cut off this region from the advancing Red Army.
    Such was quiet Turkey - QUIET, like the UKRAINIAN NIGHT IN WHICH LIQUE SHOULD BE TURNED OUT ...
  42. hohol95
    hohol95 13 July 2017 22: 23
    0

    We finish the dispute with the words of I. STALIN - PILOTS LIKE YAKI MORE!
  43. mysch
    mysch 13 July 2017 23: 23
    0
    Seaman77,
    Quote: Seaman77
    Quote: mysch
    there’s an IL-2 attack aircraft, it’s an air simulator there, all the performance characteristics are taken into account- I’ll wash you on the carla and you and I won’t do anything with your yak, I’m telling you from personal experience of the game

    Based on a computer game, are you making conclusions about real machines? wassat Enough already to bear this heresy. No stimulant can ever replace reality. I used them quite a lot, and professional, and not children's games
    where are all tth taken into account

    can’t, but give an idea completely and vividly, so to speak, see why not? The simulator is being developed for that and it is quite possible to simulate a battle, why not?
    1. Scratchy doll
      Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 04: 34
      0
      If it is made correctly, there are no such toys.
  44. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 14 July 2017 06: 09
    +1
    Scratchy Doll,
    Balabol .. I would answer yes moderators do not allow.
    1. Scratchy doll
      Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 07: 03
      0
      While they seem to allow you. Although you have nothing to answer.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 14 July 2017 07: 08
        +1
        Quote: Scratchy Doll
        While they seem to allow you. Although you have nothing to answer.

        What did you mean to say that?
        1. Scratchy doll
          Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 07: 16
          0
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          What did you mean to say that?

          Like you were going to something?
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 14 July 2017 07: 21
            +1
            Quote: Scratchy Doll
            Like you were going to something?

            What is the fright? Not. request
            1. Scratchy doll
              Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 09: 19
              0
              Quote: Mordvin 3
              What is the fright? Not. request

              About what, if now you’re not afraid of them?
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 14 July 2017 10: 39
                +1
                Quote: Scratchy Doll
                at least, now you’re not afraid of them?

                No, I am not afraid. I was called a Shaman.
                1. Scratchy doll
                  Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 11: 39
                  0
                  What other valuable information can you share?
                  1. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 14 July 2017 11: 43
                    +1
                    Quote: Scratchy Doll
                    What other valuable information can you share?

                    No. He was never a drum.
                    1. Scratchy doll
                      Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 12: 13
                      0
                      Who would doubt that. Drum, balabol - meager vocabulary.
                      1. Mordvin 3
                        Mordvin 3 14 July 2017 12: 20
                        +1
                        Quote: Scratchy Doll
                        Who would doubt that. Drum, balabol - meager vocabulary.

                        You Dostoevsky put it? Or according to Tolstov? And I can according to Pushkin ... And better - according to Gogol feel
                      2. Scratchy doll
                        Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 14: 47
                        0
                        In general - you can do everything ... you don’t need to quote a lot of classics.
  45. kugelblitz
    kugelblitz 14 July 2017 07: 52
    +1
    Legends and myths spawned commentators, however, the author of the article distinguished himself. About Yak already said ten times, I do not want to repeat myself, I’ll add only if you look at the design of the plane, then the myths crumble to smithereens. The tenacious drive of tubular traction control (like on the Su-25 !!!), the steel truss of the fuselage, I would argue about the wooden wing, the motor is ultralight by the way - 500 with a penny against 800 kg 109th. The lack of slats upset, but experienced pilots knew how to balance a stable Yak at control at a stall speed, all the more so as it came out of a corkscrew very easily, due to which they fought with a vertical maneuver. Some Yak-9T grief commentators and fans of imported wunderwaffles somehow forget.

    By the way, Messer fans sometimes suspend, forgetting about the much better Mackey MC.205 with the same engine, not to mention the little-known even more severe Re.2005, the latter was a particularly fierce fighter, tearing your Mustangs and Spitfires to shreds. Sagittario inherited outstanding maneuverability from the Re.2000, had an extremely compressed fuselage with a minimal midship, well-developed plumage, Messer was a clumsy boom compared to him. I love this plane, along with the Yak-3, my favorite WWII fighter.

  46. ARES623
    ARES623 14 July 2017 08: 52
    +1
    Quote: kugelblitz
    Oh, wey, what about the famous 7 control levers for engine modes and La-7 propeller pitch?

    Such at that time was the level of our production, technological and financial capabilities. We and in the T-34 had very spartan conditions ... They already had, they had. But, as one of the representatives of the NATO countries said, one of the main advantages of the Russians is a very low level of needs (not literally, but in fact).
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 15 July 2017 03: 49
      0
      Quote: ARES623
      one of the main advantages of the Russians is a very low level of needs

      This applies to all third world countries.
      In which, in particular, they do not know that weapons are an instrument. It owes to be comfortable.
  47. ARES623
    ARES623 14 July 2017 09: 10
    +4
    Scratchy Doll,
    Quote: Scratchy Doll
    The level of education and science in the Russian Empire was higher than in any other European country.
    The number of illiterates in the Republic of Ingushetia was less than in the USSR under Brezhnev; now in the Russian Federation their number is even greater, because the percentage of “completely degenerates” is greater.

    You probably live on the Moon (Mars) and read local publications. There is another version: in the period after the Second World War, when the Cold War began, in order to discredit the transformations and achievements achieved by the USSR, the Western special services launched a campaign to exaggerate the level of development of the Republic of Ingushetia until 1917, and disinformation was spread that under the USSR there were special and did not have. Only then did I have a question to Scratchy Doll: if the level of education in RI is higher than in any European country, then how did we manage to lag behind in almost all areas of production and agriculture. It turns out that the most literate people in Europe could not create either the auto industry, or the aviation industry, or the production of communications equipment, and much more? Or did we buy fokers, German cannons, American cars (along with factories) for some other reason? You, dear, Western propagandist, troll, paid trash on this resource. Reading you, I agree with your thesis about "completely degenerates", somehow clearly. I think so... am
    1. Scratchy doll
      Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 11: 47
      0
      And the aircraft industry was its own and the auto industry, and then educated Russian immigrants raised the aircraft to the United States.
      Europe bought food in Russia in spite of the fact that European lands are more fertile and the climate is better. Russia's lag was only in volumes of iron production because coal and iron ore deposits were far from each other.
      You are probably still stuck in a red corner in an embrace with a maxim machine gun in a wet state.
      1. ARES623
        ARES623 14 July 2017 13: 07
        +2
        Quote: Scratchy Doll
        And the aircraft industry was its own and the auto industry, and then educated Russian immigrants raised the aircraft to the United States.

        No need to talk about Sikorsky. What are the pair of aircraft (cars) that were produced by the industrial series.
        Quote: Scratchy Doll
        Europe bought food in Russia despite the fact that European lands are more fertile and the climate is better,

        Large landowners sold food abroad, despite the fact that the peasantry of Russia in the most massive part of clean bread did not see their life. For grain, Russian supplies covered their needs by 10-13%. The military department noted at the call in 1914 that 75% of the draft contingent (which is mainly peasantry 90% or even more) first tried meat in army canteens. The yield in Russia for grain among prosperous landowners averaged about 70 pounds per tithing, among the middle peasants 45–50 pounds, abroad (FR, Germany, etc.) 120–170 pounds per tithe.
        You are here carrying nonsense propaganda, probably intentionally. And if out of ignorance, I recommend reading no longer Rezunov, but someone from specialist researchers. They are freely available. Look, and you will find .... But to deliberately lie is a sin ...
        1. Scratchy doll
          Scratchy doll 14 July 2017 14: 45
          +1
          About the Russian American Kartveli and his P-47 30 years later than the era of steampunk and airships PMV is also not necessary? Yablochkova and Zvorykina?
          Despite the fact that mass rickets were in Germany, not in Russia, illiteracy and poverty in Britain despite colonialism and the robbery of 1/4 of the world.
          Even the poor in Russia ate meat at least 4 times a year, they would honor their own Gorky-Peshkov.
          1. ARES623
            ARES623 14 July 2017 23: 14
            +2
            Quote: Scratchy Doll
            Despite the fact that mass rickets were in Germany, not in Russia, illiteracy and poverty in Britain despite colonialism and the robbery of 1/4 of the world.
            Even the poor in Russia ate meat at least 4 times a year, they would honor their own Gorky-Peshkov.

            I will not provide data on rickets in the Republic of Ingushetia, because I don’t have it. But I note that Mr. Peshkov was never a sociologist, a specialist in agriculture, but he was an “engineer of human souls,” which does not imply deep research bases on this issue. He is a writer, prose writer, with a creative outlook on life in the country. The circle of his communication is very wide, but not all-encompassing. In short, it is not the most reliable source. There are many others who, together, create a more