Strokes to the portrait of Admiral Rozhestvensky

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The personality of Admiral Rozhestvensky is one of the most controversial in stories domestic fleet.

Some contemporaries represented him as a victim of circumstances that fell under the Moloch of the archaic system of empire management. Soviet historians and writers described him as a despot and a petty tyrant, who, having almost dictatorial powers, was to have sole responsibility for the defeat of the Russian squadron in Tsushima. In our time, a number of “researchers” develop various conspiracy theories, making the admiral an agent of the Bolsheviks, then a minion of freemasons.



The purpose of this article is not a complete and comprehensive description of the life of this historical character, only the placement of some accents, let's say, the addition of a few strokes to the portrait written earlier.

Strokes to the portrait of Admiral Rozhestvensky

Figure 1. Vice Admiral Z.P.Rozhensky

I. Sources

Arguing about a man who died more than a hundred years ago, it is impossible not to touch on the topic of the sources on which these arguments are based.

History has preserved for us several important types of documents:

1. Orders and official correspondence of the admiral.

2. Admiral's private correspondence, letters from other participants in the campaign of the Second Pacific Squadron.

3. The testimony given by Z.P. Rozhestvensky and other officers during the investigation into the causes of the Tsushima disaster.

4. The memoirs left to us by second rank captain Semenov, mechanical engineer Kostenko, sailor Novikov and other authors.

5. Description of military operations at sea in 37-38 Meiji

Virtually every source has certain characteristic flaws associated with it, either because of the incompleteness of the events described in it, or with the bias of this description, or simply with the fallacy that occurs because of the time gap between the event itself and its description.

Anyway, we have no other sources at our disposal and will no longer appear, therefore, those mentioned above will be taken as the basis.

Ii. Admiral's career before the start of the Russian-Japanese War

Zinovy ​​Petrovich Rozhestvensky was born on October 30 (November 12 in a new style) 1848 was in the family of a military doctor.

In 1864, he passed the Maritime Cadet Corps exams and graduated from it, four years later, among the top graduates.

In 1870, he was promoted to the first officer rank of midshipman.

In 1873, Z.P. Rozhestvensky graduated with honors from the Mikhailovsky Artillery Academy and was appointed to the commission of naval artillery experiments, which was part of the Artillery Branch of the Marine Technical Committee.

Until 1877, the future admiral sailed only sporadically on the ships of the Practical Squadron of the Baltic Fleet.

This situation has changed since the beginning of the war with Turkey. Zinovy ​​Petrovich was sent to the Black Sea Fleet as a flagship artilleryman. While in this position, he made regular trips to the sea on various vessels, including the Vesta steamer, which gained national fame after an unequal battle with the Turkish battleship Fethi Buland. For his courage and valor Z.P. Rozhestvensky received another rank and orders of St. Vladimir and St. George.

However, the further development of the career of the latter-day captain-lieutenant stalled. After the end of the war, he returned to the commission at MTC and continued to work there without any promotions up to the 1883 year.

From 1883 to 1885, Zinovy ​​Petrovich commanded the Bulgarian Navy, and then returned to Russia.

Starting from the 1885 year, already in the rank of captain of the second rank, ZP Rozhdestvensky held various positions on the ships of the Baltic Fleet Practical Squadron ("Kremlin", "Herzog Edinburgh", etc.).

In the 1890 year, that is, twenty years after receiving the first officer's rank, Zinovy ​​Petrovich was first appointed commander of the ship, namely, the Rider clipper, which he soon replaced with the same type of Cruiser. Thanks to this appointment, Z.P. Rozhestvensky first came to the Far East. There, the Cruiser clipper in a squadron of four ships made the transitions from Vladivostok to Petropavlovsk and back.

In 1891, the Cruiser was returned to the Baltic. The captain of the second Rozhestvensky was expelled from him and appointed to the position of marine agent in London. Already in England he was awarded another rank.

For three years, Zinovy ​​Petrovich collected information about the British fleet, oversaw the construction of ships, their individual units and devices for the Russian fleet, and also carefully avoided communication with representatives of foreign intelligence services.

Returning to Russia, Z.P. Rozhestvensky was commanded by the cruiser “Vladimir Monomakh”, on which he first made the transition from Kronstadt to Algeria, and then to Nagasaki. In that campaign, Zinoviy Petrovich had to make a number of voyages in the Yellow Sea related to the war of Japan and China, including commanding one of the squadron detachments of the Pacific Ocean, consisting of nine ships.


Figure 2. Cruiser "Vladimir Monomah"

In 1896, Rozhestvensky returned to Russia on his ship, handed over command and transferred to the new post of head of the Artillery Training Team. In 1898, he was promoted to the rank of Rear Admiral. In 1900, Admiral Rozhestvensky was promoted to chief of the Artillery Training Detachment, and in 1903 he headed the Main Naval Headquarters, thus becoming one of the most influential people in the naval hierarchy.

Correcting precisely this post, Zinovy ​​Petrovich met the beginning of the war with Japan in January 1904. It is noteworthy that during his more than thirty-year career, he only independently commanded a warship for a little more than two years, and even less - by combining warships in a non-training environment.

Regarding the personal qualities of the admiral, the majority of the people who served with him, noted the extraordinary diligence of ZP Rozhestvensky, conscientiousness in doing things and incredible willpower. At the same time, he was afraid of his abrupt disposition and caustic, at times even rude, expressions that he did not hesitate to use in regard to his subordinates who made mistakes.

For example, what Lieutenant Vyrubov wrote about this in his letter to his father.

"You have to bother to arrange a decent existence for yourself for the summer, or even look, you will get into an artillery detachment to the ferocious Admiral Rozhestvensky, where you will not only get leave, but you also risk being swallowed by this monster."


Iii. Appointment commander squadron. The organization of the campaign. Shooting and maneuvering training

By the beginning of 1904, in the ruling circles of both Japan and Russia, the opinion was already settled that the war of these two powers was inevitable. The question was only when it starts. The Russian leadership was of the opinion that the enemy would be ready no earlier than 1905 of the year. However, Japan managed to get ahead of these forecasts due to the rigid mobilization of material and human resources and to attack our country at the beginning of 1904.

Russia was not ready for war. In particular, the navy was divided into three connections that were not connected to each other, each of which was inferior in strength to the Joint Fleet of Japan: the First Pacific Squadron in Port Arthur, the Second Squadron, which was being prepared in the Baltic ports, and a squadron of cruisers, based in Vladivostok.

Already at the start of hostilities, the Japanese fleet managed to lock up the First Squadron in the shallow internal raid of Port Arthur and thereby neutralize it.

In this regard, a meeting was held in April 1904, in which, among others, was attended by Emperor Nicholas II, Admiral Avelan, head of the nautical ministry, as well as Admiral Rozhestvensky. The latter expressed the view that it was necessary to prepare the Second Squadron as soon as possible for shipment to the Far East for joint actions with the First Squadron. This view was supported and work on the completion and testing of ships included in the squadron, was given a significant acceleration. In addition, Z.P. Rozhestvensky himself was appointed commander.


Figure 3. Corps of the EDB "Borodino" after launching

In August of the same year, a second meeting was held. It made a decision about the optimal time for sending the squadron to the campaign: immediately or after the start of 1905 navigation of the year. In favor of the second option, the following arguments were made:

1. Port Arthur most likely will not last anyway until the Second Squadron approaches. Accordingly, she will have to go to Vladivostok, the bay of which may at this time still not be cleared of ice.

2. By the spring of 1905, it would have been possible to complete the construction of the fifth battleship of the Borodino (Glory) series, as well as carry out the entire series of necessary tests on already built ships.

Proponents of the first course of action (among them was Zinovy ​​Petrovich) said that:

1. Even if Port Arthur does not survive, it will be better to join the battle with the United Fleet immediately after the fall of the fortress, until he has time to restore combat capability.

2. Already after the squadron exited from the Baltic, “exotic” cruisers will have time to join it (negotiations on their acquisition were conducted with Chile and Argentina).

3. At the time of the meeting, contracts were already concluded with coal suppliers and a large number of ships were chartered for the same purpose. Their dissolution and re-preparation would have cost the Russian treasury a considerable amount.

ZP Rozhdestvensky particularly focused on the last argument and eventually defended his point of view. Thus, the assembly decided to send the squadron, primarily on the basis of economic considerations, apparently forgetting that the miser pays twice.

It should be noted that the issue of providing their ships with fuel, Admiral Rozhestvensky generally attached decisive importance. Exhausting loading of the cardiff in the most difficult climatic conditions is vividly described in the memoirs of all the participants of the campaign without exception.

Let us pay tribute to the organizational skills of the commander: for the entire period of eight-month voyage, the squadron has never encountered a coal deficit. Moreover, according to the historical commission that studied the actions of the fleet in the Russian-Japanese war, as of the end of April 1905, about three weeks before the Tsushima battle, Zinovy ​​Petrovich had truly enormous reserves: about 14 thousand tons on auxiliary cruisers and transports of the squadron itself, 21 thousand tons on steamboats, going from Shanghai to Saigon (to the location of the squadron), 50 thousand tons on steamboats, chartered in Shanghai. At the same time, on each Borodino-type EDB, about 2 thousand tons were loaded (with a normal supply of about 800 tons), which made it possible to make a transition of at least 3,000 miles or almost 6 thousand kilometers without additional fuel intakes. Remember this value, it will be useful to us in the course of the reasoning, which will be given a little later.

Now we note such a curious fact. From the middle of 19 to the beginning of 20, world shipbuilding made an unprecedented leap forward. Literally every decade, wooden battleships, battery armored frigates, monitors, and casemate battleships alternated between each other. The latter type of ship was replaced by an armadillo with tower-barbet installations, which proved to be so successful that it became widespread in the fleets of all the leading naval powers.

Steam machines, becoming more powerful and more perfect, earned the right to become the only power plants of the ships, sending sailing equipment to the museum shelves. At the same time, ship guns, their sights, target guidance systems and fire control systems were improved. Also steadily increased the protection of ships. From the 10-tee centimeter boards of the era of wooden shipbuilding, a gradual transition was made to the Krupp's 12-inch inch armored tiles, able to withstand direct hits from the most powerful shells of the time.

At the same time, the tactics of naval battles did not keep up with technical progress.

Like a hundred, and two hundred years ago, the decisive action for the capture of the sea was to be a victory in the general battle of the linear fleets, which, lined up in parallel columns, were supposed to subject each other to the most severe shelling. The highest skill of the commander at the same time was considered the ability to put the opponent "stick over Ti", that is, to make the enemy column was on the traverse (perpendicular) of his own column. In this case, all the ships of the commander were able to beat all the artillery of one of the sides of the main vessels of the enemy. The latter, however, could only conduct a weak return fire from tank guns. This method was far from new and was successfully used by such famous naval commanders as Nelson and Ushakov.


Figure 4. Blue squad puts "wand over Ti" red

Accordingly, with a quantitatively and qualitatively equal ship composition of the two opposing squadrons, the advantage was gained by the one that made evolutions (maneuvered) better and more accurately and whose gunners fired more accurately from the guns.

Thus, Admiral Rozhestvensky, first of all, needed to concentrate on working out the above skills of the compound entrusted to him. What kind of success he was able to achieve during the eight-month voyage?

The first evolutionary teachings Zinovy ​​Petrovich conducted after the arrival of the squadron on the island of Madagascar. The squadron ships that preceded 18 thousands of kilometers from it were done exclusively in the wake column. After the war, the commander explained this by the fact that he could not waste time on training maneuvering, as he tried to move as quickly as possible to Port Arthur.

A certain amount of truth was certainly present in this explanation, but simple calculations show that to travel a path of 10 thousands of miles in length a squadron that had an average speed of the order of 8 nodes would have to spend about 1250 hours or about 52 of a day (without taking into account parking time related to coal loading, forced repairs and waiting for the resolution of the Gulsky incident). If Z.P. Rozhestvensky had dedicated to the teachings on each of these 52 days 2 hours, then arrival to Madagascar would take place only 5 days after the actual, which was hardly critical.

The results of the first training maneuvers are colorfully described in the order of the admiral, released the next day:

"For a whole hour, the 10 ships could not take their seats at the very smallest course of the lead ...".

"In the morning everyone was warned that around noon there would be a signal: suddenly turn everything to 8 points ... Nevertheless, all the commanders were confused and instead of the front they depicted a gathering of foreign ships ..."

Subsequent exercises were a little better. After the next maneuvers Rozhestvensky announced:

“The maneuvering of the squadron of 25 on January 16th was not good. The simplest turns on 2 and 3 rumba, while changing the course of the squadron in the wake of the wake, never succeeded ... ”.

"Turns" suddenly "were especially bad ...".

It is characteristic that the admiral conducted the last training maneuvers already on the day before the Tsushima battle. And they went as far as perfect. The commander even signaled his displeasure to the second and third armored units.

Based on the above, one may get the impression that the commanders of the ships that made up the compound were so hopelessly dull that, despite regular training, they could not learn anything. In reality, there were at least two circumstances, overcoming of which was beyond their competence.

1) The squadron maneuvers were carried out using flag signals, which in turn were decoded using signal books. These operations required a lot of time, which, with frequent changes of signals on the flagship, led to confusion and confusion.

In order to avoid such situations, Admiral Rozhestvensky’s headquarters should have developed a simplified signaling system that would allow them to quickly issue orders to perform certain, previously explained and worked out maneuvers.

However, this was not done, including for the following reason.

2) Admiral Rozhestvensky was a consistent supporter of one-way communication with his subordinates by sending them written orders. He rarely held meetings of junior flagships and ship commanders; he never explained his demands to anyone and did not discuss the results of the exercises.

Therefore, it is not surprising that the connection of the ships, which together passed the order of 30 thousands of kilometers, did not learn to co-ordinate joint maneuvering, which, as we shall see, led to the most serious consequences.

As for the training artillery firing, they were carried out four times. Admiral Rozhdestvensky assessed their results as poorly satisfactory.

"Yesterday's squadron shooting was extremely sluggish ..."

"Valuable 12-inch shells were thrown without any consideration ..."

"Shooting 75-mm guns was also very bad ..."

It would seem logical to assume that the squadron was completely unprepared for battle and needed numerous further training. Unfortunately, they did not follow, and for a rather prosaic reason: the stocks of practical shells, taken by ships from Russia, dried up. Their additional party was expected on the Irtysh transport, which arrived in Madagascar later than the main forces, but they were not there either. As it turned out, the shells, which were so necessary for the squadron, were sent to Vladivostok by rail, which caused the greatest indignation and anger of ZP Rozhestvensky. However, the subsequent detailed study of the correspondence between the squadron commander and the Main Naval Headquarters, which was responsible for picking up the cargo of the Irtysh, did not find any written requirements for sending practical shells to Madagascar.


Figure 5. Mine boat tows artillery shield

Admiral Rozhestvensky retained the opportunity to continue training commanders using either small-caliber guns of battleships and cruisers (shells were in abundance), or large-caliber guns mounted on auxiliary cruisers of the compound (reducing ammunition of auxiliary cruisers would not have a significant effect on the combat capability of the squadron whole). However, both of these possibilities were not used.

Iv. Strategy and tactics

When in December 1904, the ships of Admiral Rozhestvensky came to the shores of Madagascar, they were overtaken by two bleak news.

1. The first squadron ceased to exist, without causing any substantial damage to the enemy.

2. Negotiations on the acquisition of cruisers in Latin America ended in complete failure.

Thus, the initial task facing Zinovy ​​Petrovich, namely, the seizure of the sea, was significantly more complicated compared to what it seemed at the August meeting of the highest naval leadership.

Apparently, this consideration so struck the minds of the people who decided on the future fate of the Second Squadron, that they held it for two and a half months in the Nossi-Be bay in Madagascar, despite the persistent requests of the commander to continue moving forward with the aim of interacting with the ships the Japanese fleet before their guns and mechanisms, which had been worn out during the siege, were repaired.

“Having stayed here, we give the enemy time to put the main forces in full order ...”

At the end of January, 1905, these considerations have lost their relevance, but are replaced by new ones.

“Further stay in Madagascar is unthinkable. The squadron eats itself and decomposes physically and morally, ”admiral Rozhestvensky described the situation in his telegram to the 15 February 1905 Manager of the Navy Department.

The Russian ships left Nossi-Be on March 03. Zinoviy Petrovich was ordered to go to Vladivostok, along the way he was strengthened by Rear-Admiral Nebogatov's detachment, on the way from Libau to the Indian Ocean.

Aware of the complexity of the task, Admiral Rozhestvensky frankly telegraphed to the Tsar enough that "The Second Squadron ... the task of mastering the sea is no longer possible."

I believe that if Z.P. Rozhestvensky, for example, S.O. Makarov, were in place, then a resignation letter would be sent with this telegram, which this celebrated admiral would not hesitate to give, not seeing the opportunity to carry out the tasks assigned to him.

However, Zinovy ​​Petrovich abstained from sending such a petition.

The author of the book “Reckoning”, the second rank captain Semenov, explains this contradiction romantically: the admiral did not want anyone to doubt his personal courage, so he continued to lead the squadron towards inevitable death.

However, more reliable is different. By April 1905, the Russian army, which had suffered painful defeats at Liaoyan and Mukden, had been dug in near the city of Jilin and had no forces to launch a counterattack. It was quite obvious that the situation would not change as long as the enemy troops regularly receive material and human replenishment from Japan. Only the fleet was able to break this link between the islands and the mainland. Thus, the squadron of Rozhestvensky became Russia's main and only hope for a successful ending of the war. Nicholas II himself telegraphed to the commander that "All Russia looks at you with faith and strong hope." Rejecting the post, Zinovy ​​Petrovich would have placed both the tsar and the Navy Ministry in such a difficult and ambiguous position that it would undoubtedly ruin any opportunity for him to continue his career. I dare to suggest that the awareness of this particular fact kept the admiral from resigning.

The squadron of Rozhestvensky was connected with the Nebogatov detachment on April 26 of the year 1905. As Novikov-Priboy wrote: “Russia gave us everything it could. The word remains for the 2-th squadron.

Admiral Rozhestvensky, who gathered together all his strength, needed to make a strategic decision on which way to go to Vladivostok. True to himself, Zinovy ​​Petrovich did not become interested in the opinion of either the members of his staff or the junior flagships, and he single-handedly decided to take the shortest route through the Korean Strait. It is clear at the same time realizing that in this case he will definitely meet the main forces of the enemy.

After the war, the squadron commander explained that, in general, he had no choice: the supply of fuel on the ships did not allow them to go round the line along the east coast of Japan without additional coal loading, which would be difficult to do in difficult weather conditions outside equipped bases.

Now back to the size of coal reserves, which we considered somewhat higher. As already mentioned, the battleships of the Borodino type were able to pass with a reinforced coal reserve of at least 6000 kilometers. At the same time, the entire journey from Shanghai to Vladivostok around the Japanese islands would be about 4500 kilometers. Armadillos of other types and first-class cruisers had better seaworthiness and were more adapted to ocean voyages, so this distance was also quite within their power. Also, there was no doubt transports and auxiliary cruisers. Destroyers could easily do this way in tow. The weak link in this logical chain was only the light cruisers “Pearl”, “Emerald”, “Almaz” and “Svetlana”, as well as the battleships of the coastal defense of the Nebogatov detachment. However, taking into account the fact that these ships were clearly not the main striking force of the squadron, they could well have taken the risk.



It is likely that if the squadron chose this path for itself, then on the approach to Vladivostok it would be waiting for the ships of Admiral Togo. However, in this case, the Japanese, aware of the distance from their own bases, would probably have been more careful in battle. The proximity of Vladivostok should have given our sailors strength and confidence in the successful completion of navigation. In general, the Russian squadron could have a clear psychological advantage, which, however, did not happen at the behest of its commander.

So, ZP Rozhestvensky decided to take the shortest route through the eastern branch of the Korean Strait. What tactics did the admiral choose to make this breakthrough?

Before answering this question, let us recall the composition of the squadron subordinate to him:

- Borodino squadron battleships, 4 units. ("Eagle", "Suvorov", "Alexander III", "Borodino");
- battleship cruiser "Peresvet", 1 units. ("Oslyabya");
- Ironclad obsolete types, 3 units. (“Sisoy”, “Navarin”, “Nikolay I”);
- armored cruisers of obsolete types, 3 units. ("Nakhimov", "Monomah", "Donskoy");
- Coastal Armadillos, 3 units. ("Apraksin", "Senyavin", "Ushakov");
- Cruiser I rank, 2 units. ("Oleg", "Aurora");
- Cruiser rank II, 4 units. ("Svetlana", "Diamond", "Pearls", "Emerald").

In addition, 9 destroyers, 4 transport, 2 sump steamer and 2 hospital ship.

Total 37 ships.

The first thing that catches your eye is the presence of a squadron of non-combat ships in the squadron that is going to break through.

It is known that the maximum connection speed of several ships cannot exceed the maximum speed of the slowest one, reduced by an 1 node. The slowest transports in the squadron of Rozhestvensky had a maximum turn of the order of 10 nodes, so the whole connection could move no faster than with the 9 nodal speed.

It is clear that in this case, the Japanese troops, moving at a speed of 15-16 nodes, were able to maneuver in relation to our column so as to occupy any position that is most advantageous to them. What made Z.Pozhestvensky take with him into a breakthrough transports, which significantly slowed down the progress of the squadron?

“A considerable difficulty was created by ... a warning to the Main Naval Staff: not to burden the poorly equipped and equipped Vladivostok port and not to rely on a supply by the Siberian road. On the one hand, the elementary rules of tactics prescribed to go into battle lightly and, of course, not to have transports in the squadron, hampering its actions, on the other - this is a kindly warning ... ”

This explanation was offered by the author of the book “Payback”, the captain of the second rank Vladimir Semenov.

The explanation is rather ambiguous, since it is based on the assumption that Russian ships will reach Vladivostok in any case and, acting from there, may experience a shortage of coal and spare parts.

What was the basis of this paradoxical belief that a breakthrough would take place?

Here is the answer to this question, given by Admiral Rozhestvensky himself: “... by analogy with the July 28 battle, 1904 of the year had reason to consider it possible to reach Vladivostok with the loss of several ships ...”.


Figure 6. Battleships Peresvet and Victory of the First Pacific Squadron

For a number of reasons, the correctness of the analogy proposed by Zinovy ​​Petrovich is very controversial.

First of all, there were no transports in the convoy of Russian ships that left Port Arthur to Vladivostok that could restrain its progress.

Secondly, the mechanisms of the breaking through ships were not worn out, and the crews were tired of the months-long transition through the three oceans.

Because of this, the squadron of Admiral Vitgeft could develop the course to 14 nodes, which was only slightly less than the speed of the Japanese ships. Therefore, the latter were forced to fight on parallel courses, not occupying a predominant position in relation to the Russian column.

But the main thing is not even all these reservations, but the fact that the outcome of the battle in the Yellow Sea was unfavorable for the Russian squadron. After the failure of the flagship battleship Tsesarevich, it fell into pieces that did not represent a significant combat force: some ships returned separately to Port Arthur, another part disarmed in neutral ports, the cruiser Novik broke through to Sakhalin Island, where it was flooded crew after the battle with the Japanese cruisers "Tsushima" and "Chetse". Nobody reached Vladivostok.

Nevertheless, Admiral Rozhestvensky decided that this experience can, in general, be considered positive, since during the nearly three-hour battle, not a single ship died, and that there are chances of a breakthrough through the location of the main enemy forces.

He organized his squadron as follows.

He divided the twelve armored ships into three groups:

I - "Suvorov", "Alexander III", "Borodino", "Eagle".
II - Oslyabya, Navarin, Sisoi, Nakhimov.
III - “Nikolay I”, “Ushakov”, “Senyavin”, “Apraksin”.

Near the "Suvorov" also located light cruisers "Pearl" and "Emerald", and four destroyers.

On the flagship of each detachment was supposed to be an admiral - the commander of the detachment: Rozhestvensky himself - at "Suvorov", Felkersz - at Oslyab and Nebogatov - at "Nikolai."

Three days before the Tsushima battle, Rear Admiral Felkerszam died. However, for reasons of secrecy, this information was not disclosed and was not communicated even to Rear Admiral Nebogatov. The duties of the junior flagship went to the commander of the battleship Oslyabya, captain of the first rank, Baire.

In principle, this fact did not have any special significance for managing the connection, since Admiral Rozhestvensky did not give his assistants any additional powers, did not allow their troops to take independent actions and did not take into account the opinions of other admirals when making decisions about the route of the squadron and the time it left. Also Zinovy ​​Petrovich did not consider it necessary to discuss with them the plan of the upcoming battle, which he himself considered inevitable.

Instead, two directives were reported that ZP Rozhestvensky apparently considered to be exhaustive:

1. The squadron will follow to Vladivostok in the structure of the wake column.

2. When leaving the flagship, the column should continue to move after the next matelot, until it is reported to whom the command was transferred.

The detachment of cruisers under the command of Rear Admiral Enquist, along with five destroyers, was ordered to keep close to the transports and protect them from enemy cruisers.

In the event of a battle with the main forces of the Japanese, the transports would have to go a distance of about 5 miles and continue on the previously indicated course.

V. Squadron entry into the Korean Strait. Outline and the general course of the Tsushima battlefield

The squadron entered the Korean Strait on the night of 13 on May 14 of 1905. By order of the commander, warships and transports were going out with extinguished lights, but the hospital ships "Eagle" and "Kostroma" carried all the required lights.

Thanks to these lights, the Eagle, and then the entire squadron, were opened by a Japanese auxiliary cruiser, stationed in a guard chain organized by Admiral Togo.

Thus, the chance for covert penetration into the strait (which was favored by darkness and haze over the sea) was not used, which, with luck, could allow Russian ships to avoid battle and reach Vladivostok.

Subsequently, Admiral Rozhestvensky showed that he ordered hospital ships to carry lights, as international rules required. However, in reality such requirements did not exist and there was no need to risk the secrecy of the location.

After sunrise, the Russian ships discovered that they were accompanied by the cruiser Izumi. Zinovy ​​Petrovich graciously allowed him to follow a parallel course (at the same time communicating data on the structure, course and speed of our ships to his flagship), not giving the order to either fire at the battleships or drive off cruisers.

Later, several more cruisers joined the Izumi.

In 12: 05 squadron lay on the course Nord-Ost 23⁰.

In 12: 20, when Japanese scouts disappeared into the misty haze, Admiral Rozhestvensky ordered the 1 and 2 armored units to make a sequential turn to the right on 8 points (90⁰). As he explained during the post-war investigation, the plan was to rebuild all the armored units into a common front.

Leaving aside the question of what the meaning of such a rebuilding was, if it were possible to complete it, and see what happened next.

When the 1 armored unit completed the maneuver, the fog became less frequent and the Japanese cruisers became visible again. Not wanting to show his rebuilds to the enemy, the commander gave a warning signal to the 2 armored squad, and the 1 squad ordered him to make a turn to 8 points again, but now to the left.

It is quite characteristic that no attempts were made to drive away the Japanese cruisers from the squadron to a distance from which they could not observe our rebuilding, and nevertheless complete the evolution that had begun.

The result of these half-maneuvers was that the 1-th armored detachment was on the course parallel to the course of the entire squadron in the distance 10-15 cable.


Figure 7. The layout of the fleets before the battle

At 13: 15, the main forces of the United Fleet, consisting of six battleships and six armored cruisers, appeared on a head-on course. Since Admiral Rozhestvensky deliberately did not put any combat guard ahead of the squadron, their appearance was somewhat unexpected for the commander.

Realizing that starting a battle in the ranks of two columns was completely unprofitable, ZP Rozhdestvensky ordered the 1 armored detachment to increase the speed to 11 nodes and take a turn to the left, intending to put him at the head of the common wake column again. At the same time, the 2 armored detachment was ordered to stand in the wake of the 1 armored detachment.

At about the same time, Admiral Togo ordered his ships to make a turn on 16 points in order to take a course parallel to the course of our squadron.

When this maneuver was made, all Japanese 12 ships had to pass through one particular point in 15 minutes. This point was relatively easy to shoot from the Russian ships and, having developed intensive fire, inflict significant damage to the enemy.


Figure 8. Schemes of turns "sequentially" and "all at once"

However, Admiral Rozhestvensky made a different decision: around 13: 47, a “one” signal went up over the flagship of the squadron, which, in accordance with order No. 29 of 10 in January 1905, meant: “... to concentrate fire as much as possible ... ” In other words, Admiral Rozhestvensky ordered to shoot not at a fixed turning point well viewed from all his battleships, but on the Japanese flagship - the battleship Mikasa, which, having completed the turn, swiftly went ahead, making it difficult to shoot.

Due to the miscalculations made in the implementation of the maneuver of rebuilding two columns into one, the lead ship of the second armored detachment - Oslyabya - began to push the end ship of the first armored detachment - the Eagle. To avoid a collision, "Oslyabya" even turned aside and stopped the cars.

The Japanese were not slow to take advantage of the mistake of the Russian command. The enemy battleships and cruisers, barely past the turning point, opened hurricane fire at the practically stationary Oslyab. During the first twenty-five minutes of the battle, the ship received several large holes in the weakly protected nasal tip and lost more than half of the artillery. After that, the battleship, enveloped in fire, rolled out of order and, after another twenty minutes, sank.

Approximately five minutes earlier, the flagship battleship Suvorov, under the brutal fire of four leading Japanese ships, stopped listening to the rudder and began to describe the circulation to the right. Pipes and masts of it were brought down, many superstructures were destroyed, and the hull represented a giant bonfire from bow to stern.


Figure 9. EDB "Prince Suvorov"

Admiral Rozhestvensky had already received several wounds by this time and could not give orders. However, the ability to control the actions of the squadron, he lost even earlier - as soon as the ship's halyards were burned, they needed to raise the flag signals.

Thus, already forty minutes after the start of the battle, our squadron lost two of the five best battleships, and in fact lost control.

Following the order of the commander, after the failure of the Suvorov for several hours, the formation of the Russian ships was alternately headed by the battleships Emperor Alexander III and Borodino. Twice they attempted, hiding behind the misty fog and smoke of the fires, to rush northward, cutting off the stern to the enemy ships. And both times the opponent successfully stopped these attempts, skillfully maneuvering and using superiority in speed. Over and over again leaving our leading ships abreast of their columns, the Japanese fell upon them with destructive longitudinal (enfilade) fire.

Deprived of the opportunity to conduct effective response fire and having no reasonable plan of action, our squadron at that time, according to the testimony of the Japanese side, was "a few ships huddled together."

Only about seven o'clock in the evening Rear Admiral Nebogatov took command. Raising the “Follow me” signal, he took the surviving ships along the NN-Ost 23⁰ course.

In 19: 30 after hitting a few minutes Whitehead sank the battleship "Suvorov". Admiral Rozhestvensky was no longer on board - previously he and his headquarters were rescued by the “Violent” destroyer and later transferred to the other destroyer, “Poor”.

On the night of 14 on May 15, Russian ships were subjected to numerous mine attacks. It is significant that of the four ships that have been under the command of Admiral Nebogatov (the battleships of the coastal defense and the “Nicholas I”), not one was injured from these attacks. Of the four ships, whose crews were trained by Admiral Rozhestvensky, three were killed ("Sisoy the Great", "Navarin" and "Admiral Nakhimov"). The same fate would certainly have befallen the fourth ship, the Eagle, if during the day's battle it had not lost all the searchlights of combat lighting.

The next day, around 16: 30, the destroyer “Poor” was overtaken by the destroyer “Carp”. Admiral Rozhdestvensky and the ranks of his headquarters were captured by Japanese.

After returning to Russia, Zinovy ​​Petrovich was brought to trial and acquitted by him, despite pleading guilty.


Figure 10. Admiral Rozhestvensky testifies in court

Admiral died in 1909 year. The grave at the Tikhvin cemetery of St. Petersburg has not been preserved.

In conclusion, I would like to quote from the work of the military-historical commission that studied the actions of the fleet during the Russian-Japanese war.

“In the actions of the squadron commander, both in the conduct of the battle and in its preparation, it is difficult to find at least one correct action ... Admiral Rozhestvensky was a man of strong will, courageous and ardently devoted to his work ... but devoid of the slightest shadow of military talent. The march of his squadron from Petersburg to Tsushima is unprecedented in history, but in military operations, he showed not only a lack of talent, but also a complete lack of military education and combat training ... "
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  1. +6
    8 July 2017 07: 41
    After returning to Russia, Zinovy ​​Petrovich was brought to trial and acquitted by him, despite pleading guilty.
    ... At the trial, Rozhdestvensky tried his best to justify his subordinates, especially the sailors, and asked for the death penalty.
    1. Cat
      +3
      8 July 2017 08: 39
      What else was left for him to do?
      1. +12
        8 July 2017 08: 43
        He behaved decently ... did not say .. that they say that the field is also humdrum and the gate is large and the ball is square ..
  2. +7
    8 July 2017 07: 47
    1. The first squadron ceased to exist, without causing any substantial damage to the enemy.
    A strange statement by the author of this article !!! That is, the sinking of a third of the Japanese EDB is not significant ...
    1. +2
      8 July 2017 16: 44
      Quote: Nehist
      A strange statement by the author of this article !!! That is, the sinking of a third of the Japanese EDB is not significant ...

      Somewhere there is some truth, then there was a separate initiative against the capricious bosses
    2. +4
      8 July 2017 23: 17
      Let's call a spade a spade: having lost 7 EDB and 4 cruisers of the first rank, ours sank two Japanese EDB, and not with artillery, but thanks to a successful mine setting.

      The combat effectiveness of the enemy fleet suffered insignificantly from this: he continued to dominate the Sea of ​​Japan and was stronger than the second squadron that came there.
      1. +2
        8 July 2017 23: 55
        Let's!!! 2 TOE and did not. Do not talk significantly? Togo was not sure that he would be able to destroy 1 TOE that the battle itself was on the 28th and confirmed. Also, the inclusion of DBK in the line is also not from a good life, namely because of the absence of EDB. As for mine postonovok, this is normal practice and there is not so much luck, but an in-depth analysis of the movement of the Japanese squadron
        1. +1
          10 July 2017 12: 21
          I am ready to agree with the wording that 1 TOE has inflicted significantly larger damage than 2 TOE :)
          1. +1
            15 September 2017 22: 18
            Quote: Ivanchester
            I am ready to agree with the wording that 1 TOE caused significantly more damage than 2 TOE :)

            Given the ridiculousness of the damage (two destroyers), it is difficult to disagree.
        2. +1
          15 September 2017 22: 15
          Quote: Nehist
          As for mine postonovok, this is normal practice and there is not so much luck, but an in-depth analysis of the movement of the Japanese squadron

          That's just the statement, this almost became useless. It’s good that the minzag commander didn’t give a damn about the commander’s instructions and put mines right there and where it was decided - in the place of maneuvering the Japanese EDBs. And even that would not be.
      2. +1
        10 July 2017 09: 53
        According to the results of the battle in the Yellow Sea, the Japanese were forced to put the main ships for a long repair. For example, Mikasa was under repair for eight months, and came out of it shortly before the Tsushima battle. Without waiting for Nebogatov’s ships, Rozhdestvensky could have appeared at Tsushima much earlier, and the Japanese could not have assembled a squadron to fight back.
        1. +1
          10 July 2017 12: 22
          In the description of the war at sea, published by the Moscow State Marine School, it was stated that all of their ships were ready for battle in February 1905.Even if the ZPR did not expect either Dobrotvorsky or Nebogatov, he would hardly have managed to come to Tsushima before this time.
        2. 0
          10 July 2017 14: 00
          Quote: ignoto
          According to the results of the battle in the Yellow Sea, the Japanese were forced to put the main ships for a long repair.

          It is a pity that the Japanese themselves are not aware of this.
  3. +2
    8 July 2017 08: 12
    "Shaw again?" belay Already more than once this person has been exaggerated here ...
  4. +18
    8 July 2017 08: 33
    Probably not a single battle in Russian history has been studied in such detail, in detail, as Tsushima. The result is disappointing. Even the extraordinary courage of sailors and officers could not compensate for the mistakes of the leadership of the Empire and the Navy. History is made by people, not mythical "objective causes and circumstances." The defeat of the unprepared Russian squadron was expected. But it became a disaster with the personal irresponsibility of Admiral Rozhdestvensky.
    Thanks to the author for the article. One of my favorite topics. Of particular interest was the biography of Z. Rozhestvensky. The knowledge of the latter was within the limits of sufficient. But instead of will, courage, responsibility was ostentatious rudeness, rudeness of the admiral.
    ps And in our time, a harsh look, "strong phrases", a militarized flash mob often camouflage managerial insolvency.
    1. +16
      8 July 2017 08: 51
      I already quoted Klado’s phrase here: "The fleet preparing for the" highest shows "lost to the fleet which was preparing for war ..."
      1. +2
        8 July 2017 11: 16
        Quote: Monster_Fat
        I already quoted Klado’s phrase here: "The fleet preparing for the" highest shows "lost to the fleet which was preparing for war ..."

        Treasure in authority? Congratulations. I do not sympathize, apparently deserved.
        1. +1
          8 July 2017 20: 03
          In the city where I lived in Russia recently, there lived one “bum” - they called him “Uncle Petya” (I don’t even know the real name or not). So, this “bum” always rummaged at the same time in the garbage bin of our yard (the place was behind him, well, you know what I mean). It so happened that when he rummaged there, I took out the garbage from the apartment and drove to work. It was not difficult for me to say hello to him, and here he once warned me to dress warmly, because there was a severe frost. I ignored his warning, for which I paid (I won’t specify how). Since then, I always asked him: what will the weather be like during the day and tomorrow. So, in some inexplicable way, he guessed the weather during the day at 100%, and the next day his forecast was less accurate, about 70 percent. I respected him for this and always fed me a five-hut at the end of the month. This is a question about my attitude to "authorities." ... wink
          1. +3
            9 July 2017 11: 36
            Monster_Fat Yesterday, 20:03 ↑
            This is a question about my attitude to "author thetas." ...

            I'm not against. I just have a number of questions for Klado’s biography (not from the garbage can):
            1. As a fleet officer, in the ranks (the head should be, and not adrenaline in one place), during the war begins to denounce and stigmatize the army? (democratic conscience unfinished!).
            2. Departed for wrecking from the fleet, and then restored with an increase. What merit? For sowing the enemy theories of Mekhen in the heads of naval officers. By the way, Rudnev trampled once and for all.
            3. and participated in the preparations for the transition of the 2nd Pacific Squadron to the Far East. With the 2nd squadron he left on October 14 at the battleship “Prince Suvorov”, in the position of the 2nd flag captain. He himself participated, and uncle is to blame.
            4. "The purpose of the strategy in the study of war is to find the true reasons governing military phenomena, or at least get as close to them as possible. The purpose of teaching strategy is to translate the achieved approximation to the truth into the way of thinking of others. And for this, these others should receive an inner conviction that what is being taught to them is really truth or an approach closer to it. ”
            And with such pearls he bestowed cadets. "what I said is truth or so."
            Do not make yourself an idol. However, you have your own opinion.
    2. +1
      8 July 2017 15: 49
      In my opinion everything should be in moderation. Imagine a different picture: in a combat situation, the commander begins: "be so kind and turn to the side, but you can do it a little faster. You will agree it will be a fool
      1. +3
        8 July 2017 21: 19
        in a combat situation, the commander begins: "be so kind and turn to the side, and you can a little faster

        According to the memoirs of contemporaries (flag-captain Dreyer), this is exactly what Admiral Dzheliko behaved in the Battle of Jutland on the Iron Duke bridge ....
        1. 0
          9 July 2017 12: 51
          According to psychology: in a military situation, the commander’s peace means a lot, and excessive tactfulness in a combat situation is also contraindicated.
      2. +1
        15 September 2017 22: 34
        Quote: Monarchist
        Agree, it will be dope

        I agree. But you will agree that orders should be concise, accurate and understandable; the battle plan was developed, communicated to the junior commanders and understood by them (which, incidentally, must be verified), and its possible violations are foreseen to the maximum and also worked out. If, instead of a coherent plan, the directive “follow the Nord-Ost 23⁰ course” is issued, the flagship's task is to replace the sunken ship, exactingness is replaced by rudeness and neglect of subordinates (ZPR was not shy to give nicknames - sometimes very vulgar - not only to admirals, but also to ships) then also
        Agree, it will be dope
        .
        By the way, Admiral Nakhimov gathered a council of war before the Sinop battle and gave all commanders the opportunity to speak out. Maybe this was a simple tribute to tradition, but there was no doubt in his culture and tact.
  5. +3
    8 July 2017 09: 47
    The campaign of his squadron from St. Petersburg to Tsushima is unprecedented in history, but in military operations he showed not only a lack of talent, but also a complete lack of military education and combat training


    The actions of Vice Admiral Z. Rozhestvensky are not an example to follow, but there was also a shipbuilding program. The construction of the battleship "Tsesarevich" does not raise questions, but the further development and laying of ships of this type in Russia is difficult to understand.
    After a test in 1898 of lead-missile shells in England, a tactic was developed for their use against the French battleships, I think you can write against ships with a French reservation system. A description of it appeared in 1899, it is very difficult to assume that the Naval Department did not know about it. In the battle on July 28, this tactic could not play a decisive role, there was only one ship with such a reservation system. In the Tsushima battle, these ships were the basis of the fleet. In that battle, she (tactics) paid off. Responsibility for the defeat of the fleet in the Russo-Japanese War rests not only with Rozhestvensky Z.P.
    1. 0
      8 July 2017 11: 38
      Very interested. Do not share the source?
      1. +3
        8 July 2017 13: 38
        Quote: MooH
        Very interested. Do not share the source?


        The "Belleisle" experiments in the British navy. 1898; Naval constructor 1899.

        About the battleships "Borodino". In 1903, an assessment was made of the armadillos being built at that time in different countries. Considered 6 ships unfortunately the Russian project took sixth place in terms of aggregate characteristics. One reason was the French reservation system.
        A few suggestions from the representative of the RIF, an English-language publication, I quote the title and surname as it is, Captain Chernegovsky:

        " When considering, we forget that the most important part of the ship is the officers and sailors who control it. You can have the best ships, but if the crews are not trained, all the benefits are nullified. In addition, it is necessary to consider the technical capabilities of the country. Armor protection of various types has a very high cost and this should also be taken into account when evaluating a project".
        1. +1
          8 July 2017 16: 38
          Quote: 27091965i
          The "Belleisle" experiments in the British navy. 1898; Naval constructor 1899.

          Generally speaking, the EMNIP fired at him in 1901. But most importantly, the shooting showed the vulnerability of unarmored extremities. What relation could this have to Borodino, in which the freeboard had excellent protection precisely from lidditnymi shells?
          1. +2
            8 July 2017 18: 36
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Generally speaking, the EMNIP fired at him in 1901. But most importantly, the shooting showed the vulnerability of unarmored extremities. What relation could this have to Borodino, in which the freeboard had excellent protection precisely from lidditnymi shells?


            Indeed, there is a typo, unfortunately the publication year 1901 was mistaken. Thank you.

            The British believed that shells equipped with a large amount of explosive would destroy barbets and ammunition supply systems. As enemy firing decreases, shorten the distance and use armor-piercing shells as well.

            The freeboard of the battleship Borodino does not have a sufficient reservation area. Many naval engineers believed that it had one armored belt and an unprotected freeboard. This is written by contemporaries of this ship.
            1. +1
              8 July 2017 19: 25
              Quote: 27091965i
              Indeed, there is a typo, unfortunately the publication year 1901 was mistaken. Thank you.

              Always happy! hi
              Quote: 27091965i
              The British believed that shells equipped with a large amount of explosive would destroy barbets and ammunition supply systems. As enemy firing decreases, shorten the distance and use armor-piercing shells as well.

              So this assumption is common, we did the same. It’s just that armor-piercing 12-dm could not penetrate the most powerful armor even at 15 kbt, shooting at long distances with armor-piercing makes no sense
              Quote: 27091965i
              The freeboard of the battleship Borodino does not have a sufficient reservation area. Many naval engineers believed that it had one armored belt and an unprotected freeboard. This is written by contemporaries of this ship.

              Well, we know that there were 2 belts and plus an armored casemate.
              There are works of the same Vinogradov, who sat in the archives and understood old drawings (there are copies in his monograph on “Glory”) and 2 belts are clearly visible there. And indeed the description of Vinogradov should be evaluated as very reliable.
              1. 0
                8 July 2017 19: 56
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Well, we know that there were 2 belts and plus an armored casemate.


                Yes, there are two belts. Andrei's research was conducted not only in our country, with the system adopted in foreign fleets, with the exception of France, it was customary to consider these two belts as one. A lot of literature on this topic has been published (booking). There is an interesting study or consideration, you can call differently “Armor and Ship” the first edition of 1906, supplemented in 1910. It very well examines the reservation system and the interaction of shells on the armor. It is in English, but you can read it if you wish.
                It contains answers to some questions that arise during the discussion of the Navy of that period of time.
                1. +1
                  8 July 2017 21: 23
                  Quote: 27091965i
                  Yes, there are two belts. Andrey studies were conducted not only in our country, with the system adopted in foreign fleets, with the exception of France, it was customary to consider these two belts as one

                  I hear about this for the first time, and ask, if it does not bother you, to give the exact name of the book in English - I will try to dig through the Internet in search.
                  However, in relation to the discussion of this topic, it is fundamentally not the number of belts, but the height of the booked side. In this regard, Borodino-type armadillos were, if not ahead of the rest of the planet, then very close to this, having 1,98 + 1,62 = 3,6 m in height of armored belts (or armored belts, if you like) along the entire length of the side. But besides this, there was also an armored casemate of 75-mm artillery in the center of the hull, which even with a significant roll minimized the area of ​​an unarmored side immersed in water.
                  1. 0
                    9 July 2017 06: 05
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    I ask, if it does not bother you, to give the exact title of the book in English -


                    A BRIEF COMPARISON OF RECENT BATTLESHIP DESIGNS. 1901

                    Comparison of features from this edition.
              2. +1
                9 July 2017 05: 45
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                It’s just that armor-piercing 12-dm could not penetrate the most powerful armor even at 15 kbt, shooting at long distances with armor-piercing makes no sense



                This is a table for 1901, it is clear that ships with better quality armor entered service, but this is for example about 15 cable ones.
                1. 0
                  9 July 2017 18: 29
                  Thanks, google it. But I didn’t understand anything from the screenshot, alas crying
                  1. +1
                    9 July 2017 19: 58
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Thanks, google it.


                    This part of the review is on the Internet. If you wish, find the book, The Life of Sir W. White. . (The life of Sir William White). Description of life, design, consideration of various projects and the construction of warships. hi
                    1. +1
                      9 July 2017 20: 18
                      The problem is that I can read English sources only through an auto-translator. And now, after I somehow managed to read some information exactly the opposite .... in general, it’s too tough for me, alas. Which is simpler - I’ll still take a chance, and so
                      1. +1
                        10 July 2017 08: 58
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The problem is that I can read English sources only through an auto-translator.


                        An auto-translator is not suitable for this. You need to install a translator on your computer, download thematic dictionaries, and create your own dictionary during the translation process. Then you will receive almost complete translations. But they still have to be edited.
    2. +1
      10 July 2017 10: 07
      And why is the French booking system worse than the English?
      According to the French system, the waterline is completely covered, and according to the English: the belt is higher, but shorter, the extremities are not covered by a belt, or covered with a thin and very narrow one.
      The French used both casemates and towers for medium artillery, the British casemates. Cuttings booked both those and others. The remaining parts of the ships in both of them were equally affected by high-explosive shells.
      Mikasa is not an example: a single ship. Its construction overload is about 900 tons.
      Asahi and Shikishima had Harvey armor, and Fuji had bare ends.

      On the tactics of using lidditny shells.
      That is why, after Tsushima and before Jutland, the British preferred armor-piercing shells with black powder. The Germans continued to improve the armor-piercing shell. The French moved almost in the same direction: they created a universal projectile that was closer to armor-piercing. The Japanese generally found themselves without high-explosive shells for heavy naval artillery. Where did the mysterious furosiki go? Shells of one battle. Literary battle?
      1. +1
        10 July 2017 14: 09
        Quote: ignoto
        That is why, after Tsushima and before Jutland, the British preferred armor-piercing shells with black powder.

        In fact, the British preferred the semi-armor-piercing (with gunpowder or liddite)
        Quote: ignoto
        The Japanese, in general, to WWII ended up without high-explosive shells for heavy naval artillery.

        That's right, because they did not like the result of Tsushima. They came to the conclusion that they would shoot with armor-piercing - they would have won before this actually happened
        Quote: ignoto
        Where did the mysterious furosiki go?

        How - where? Mikasu was drowned :)))
      2. 0
        10 July 2017 16: 23
        Quote: ignoto
        According to the French system, the waterline is completely covered, and according to the English: the belt is higher, but shorter, the extremities are not covered by a belt, or covered with a thin and very narrow


        Experimental artillery fire carried out by the French admiral Obom with shells equipped with melinite in 1887. If you familiarize yourself with the conclusions, it becomes clear why the Dupuis de Lom cruiser appeared, why with the increase in the battle distance in the extremities the thickness of the armor belt decreased, and part of the freed weight went to increase the area for booking the side.

        Quote: ignoto
        That is why, after Tsushima and before Jutland, the British preferred armor-piercing shells with black powder.


        Because the experimental firing of shells equipped with liddite and melinite showed that they have very little chance of causing a fire on a ship than shells with black powder. This was checked again at the experimental firing of the English fleet in 1906 and, in my opinion, in 1908. In most cases, this applies to semi-armor-piercing shells.
  6. +3
    8 July 2017 09: 58
    In many studies on the Tsushima Tragedy, one of the most important components is forgotten. This is a professional quality of the personnel .... Morally strong-willed, heroism, self-sacrifice, fidelity to duty are all inherent in the Russian warrior.
    The squadron was hastily completed and people took wherever they could .... That's what Igor Bunich writes in his book, The Long Road to Calvary ...
    "... The ships were manned either by recruits of the 1904 year of the draft, or called up from the reserve, who had long forgotten the maritime business. The shortage of officers was compensated by navigators and mechanics of the merchant fleet, made into officers without exams, civilian volunteers and army artillery. On some ships there were still civilians or, as they were then called, "free" mechanics and engine drivers .... "
    1. 0
      10 July 2017 10: 09
      And the Japanese flagship eight months in repair? Did the whole team rest in the coastal carriage? After repair, one shooting ... and into battle.
      1. 0
        10 July 2017 14: 12
        Quote: ignoto
        And the Japanese flagship eight months in repair?

        Sorry, but how much time can you ... mislead people? Mikas was not in repair for 8 months.
  7. 0
    8 July 2017 12: 40
    So what is primary in defeat? Bad command, bad ships, trek through the Korean Channel?
    1. +2
      8 July 2017 15: 38
      You know Victor, here is more likely a combination of factors that led to defeat.
    2. +1
      8 July 2017 16: 52
      Quote: Victor Wolz
      So what is primary in defeat? Bad command, bad ships, trek through the Korean Channel?

      The thread of victories and defeats for one reason. Always set. It seems that in life it is everywhere who makes fewer mistakes, he won.
  8. +2
    8 July 2017 13: 59
    According to fig. 7 - the second and third detachment could be sequentially turned left to the north-west, and put a stick over the "T" from the south-west in front of the unfolding Japanese. Then the Japanese would be under the crossfire of the first detachment from the southeast and the second with the third from the southwest. Then, to our battleships, given this semicircle of the Japanese, we could increase speed, leaving the transports behind us in the south in relative safety, and try to catch up and finish off the Japanese battleships.
    1. +2
      8 July 2017 16: 44
      Quote: Falcon5555
      According to fig. 7 - the second and third detachment could be sequentially turned left to the northwest, and put a stick over the "T" from the southwest in front of the unfolding Japanese.

      it doesn’t work, and it’s not necessary - the Japanese were already very good at the beginning of the battle.
      Quote: Falcon5555
      Then the Japanese would be caught in the crossfire of the first detachment from the southeast and the second and third from the southwest

      And they would crush to dust the first armored detachment, which remained without the support of the second and third
  9. +1
    8 July 2017 15: 28
    Unfortunately, very mediocre
    Admiral Rozhestvensky retained the opportunity to continue training commanders using either small-caliber guns of battleships and cruisers (shells were in abundance), or large-caliber guns mounted on auxiliary cruisers of the compound (reducing ammunition of auxiliary cruisers would not have a significant effect on the combat capability of the squadron whole). However, both of these possibilities were not used.

    In fact, this is completely wrong. The squadron practiced barrel firing, at least 8 thousand rifle cartridges were used up (according to very well-founded assumptions), while in general Rozhestvensky drove his commandos even more intensively than the Japanese expected.
    After the war, the commander explained this by the fact that he could not spend time training in maneuvering, as he tried to move as fast as possible to Port Arthur.

    And here is how Semenov described this moment
    If the anchorage was characterized, as they said in the wardroom, "black fever" and "coal binge", then staying at sea, in any case, could not be called a rest time.
    Besides the fact that much has not yet been completed by construction or correction; in addition to the fact that day and night work was carried out in all corners of the ships — they took apart something, assembled it, fitted it, repaired it, etc. — it was necessary to train the personnel, to give him the training that he had not received in peacetime, despite the reports of "full combat readiness" and the assurance that "everything is fine" ...
    Of course, in the conditions of homelessness in which we were, the main task was to move forward, and since continuous accidents on one or another ship delayed this movement, forcing us to use our life elixir - coal, to no avail that training in maneuvering, invariably associated with a waste of time and coal, was so far impracticable. The admiral himself, who did not recognize the word "impossible", did not risk such a challenge to fate ... But everything that could be done without slowing down the squadron’s own will was done.
    The staff had to work.
    The exercises were carried out during the day (in total) for 6 hours; in the evening, officers had classes in the wardroom, and at night - sudden alarms were made.

    Or for example, the author writes
    It is likely that if the squadron chose this path for itself, then, on the approach to Vladivostok, the ships of Admiral Togo would be waiting for it.

    Only one question - why Vladivostok, and not in the Laperouse Strait? Which is only 43 km wide at its narrowest point, 94 km long, 10-20 m deep and so easily blocked by mine banks? Not the whole width, of course, but ... In general, to accept a battle in the Laperouse Strait is to beg for defeat.
    What made Z.P. Rozhestvensky bring along the transports that slowed down the squadron so significantly?

    The author only forgot to note that at speeds of 9-11 knots Nebogatov’s ships already managed to lag behind his main forces. Those. if we left, it was not the transports that were needed, but the transports along with the 3rd Pacific Squadron, and Rozhestvensky could not do this. Most importantly, even if he had left them all, his squadron speed would still have been inferior to the Japanese
    Since Admiral Rozhdestvensky did not knowingly put any combat guards ahead of the squadron, their appearance was somewhat unexpected for the commander.

    I would like to know how the author got this funny idea in every respect? What was so unexpected about the appearance of the main forces of Togo and who described the unexpectedness of the moment? :))))
    In other words, Admiral Rozhdestvensky ordered to shoot not at the fixed turning point, which was clearly visible from all his battleships, but at the flagship of the Japanese - the battleship "Mikas", which, after turning, quickly went forward, making it difficult to fire.

    The author, alas, does not understand that there was simply no signal that would allow for a certain shooting point to be carried out (in no fleet of the world, by the way). Further, it should be understood that the turning radii of the ships are different and very different from each other, therefore, in a detachment, some ships enter the U-turn earlier, others later, some describe a longer arc, others describe a shorter arc, so the “shooting point” is very arbitrary. And given the fact that shooting is generally possible only for the observed target (but not a certain point in space) and taking into account the confusion that the transmission of such a signal would cause ...
    In general, for a computer game - an excellent solution, but for life ... Rozhdestvensky would explain to the squadron what he wants from it longer than the Japanese made a U-turn.
    Well, the author (alas, it becomes a tradition) painstakingly omits everything that does not fit into the logic of his article - for example, the magnificent shooting of Russian armadillos at the Mikasa in the eyeballs of battle, etc.
    1. 0
      8 July 2017 23: 18
      Andrew, I apologize, I answered below - I did not understand the tricks of quoting: (((
      1. 0
        9 July 2017 18: 28
        Quote: Ivanchester
        answered you below - did not understand the tricks of quoting:

        Everything is very simple. Press the "reply" button under the comment you are responding to. Then, if you want to quote, select the quote text in the comment to which you respond and press the "insert quote" button - it is the far right in the comment panel, there is a pop-up hint there.
    2. 0
      10 July 2017 10: 17
      Apparently, the specialist is really similar to flux. Andrei is very professional in matters of the REV, but still cannot get rid of some already outdated dogmas.
      The speed of Japanese battleships is not higher than 15 knots, due to the "Fuji"
      The speed of armored cruisers is not higher than 15 knots, due to the "Azuma"
      The speed of the Russian battleships of the Borodino type was no less: there was no operational overload (how many times were discussed), there was no significant fouling (in the same place), the mechanisms worked fine - the Orel confidently went at 16 knots after the battle.
      1. 0
        10 July 2017 14: 21
        Quote: ignoto
        The speed of Japanese battleships is not higher than 15 knots, due to the "Fuji"

        Let's just say up to 15,5
        Quote: ignoto
        The speed of Russian battleships of the Borodino type is no less than

        Less
        Quote: ignoto
        there was no operational overload (how many times were discussed)

        But it was construction, and very serious
        Quote: ignoto
        there was no significant fouling (ibid.)

        That sure was not.
        Quote: ignoto
        the mechanisms worked fine - the “Eagle” after the battle walked confidently on 16 knots.

        ??? This is when such a miracle happened? :) But what about everyone's beloved Kostenko?
        "Eagle" did not prepare in advance to give a full stroke. Meanwhile, he could count on 16-16,5 knots only with a full exertion of forces. For a full course, it would be necessary to remove from the top most of the people from the supply of shells, from the bilge and fire division, to the aid of stokers and engine drivers. Therefore, preparing to give a full turn, it was necessary to abandon combat targets in advance, to concentrate all forces and attention on coal, a car and boilers

        What about senior officer Orla Schwede?
        I think that the most complete course, under all favorable conditions, when spending the best screening coal and replacing the tired stokers with another shift, could have given no more than 15-16 knots before getting holes and water on the decks.

        But what about the testimony of the flagship navigator of the corps of naval navigators Colonel Filippovsky
        The speed of the new type of squadron battleships could develop 13 knots, no more, especially Borodino and Eagle were in great doubt
  10. 0
    8 July 2017 15: 35
    Quote: Kotischa
    What else was left for him to do?

    If Rozhestvensky had a different character, he could have blamed everything on his subordinates: I would have been glad, but N. and T. spoiled everything
  11. +3
    8 July 2017 16: 18
    Dear comrades, who is in the know: the battle of Vesta and Fethi Boulin is fiction, in order to receive orders, I read somewhere: Vesta removed from the Turks, and the commander painted everything in reverse order, or is it a real fact?
    In my opinion, the author in his work answered the question: why? "..... he only commanded a warship and even less-formation of warships for a little over two years. He was a decent cabinet Admiral, and parquet admirals do not need decency and mind and other qualities
    1. +1
      8 July 2017 16: 42
      Quote: Monarchist
      important comrades, who knows: the battle of Vesta and Fethi Boulin - a fiction, in order to receive orders, I read somewhere: Vesta removed from the Turks, and the commander painted everything in reverse order, or is it a real fact?

      Real fact. First, the battle was advertised, and then one of the participants in the battle, someone Rozhestvensky publicly declared that there was no feat
      Quote: Monarchist
      He was a decent cabinet Admiral, and parquet admirals needed not decency and intelligence, but other qualities

      Yeah. Especially in light of the foregoing ... About such "trifles" as piloting a squadron halfway around the world and the fact that after that the head EDB of Rozhestvensky showed the best result in firing accuracy among all Russian ships of the RPE, we, of course, do not mention
      1. +2
        8 July 2017 18: 02
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Of such "trifles" as piloting a squadron halfway around the world and the fact that after that the head EDB of Rozhestvensky showed the best result in firing accuracy among all the Russian ships of the RPE, we, of course, do not mention

        And how do they compare with the Japanese?

        Is it better to shoot than the gunners from the 1st? This is with a mixed kit. Who was not there ... especially this commander Monomakh, who turned the cruiser into a chicken coop. But the gunner’s assistant was with him from God, such to the battleships at once ....

        In fact, this admiral always caused neglect. If he paid little attention to the strategy, or at least put everything on one card in this strategy - to slip past the weakened technically, physically, mentally, etc. blockade of the enemy fleet, it was necessary to put all the emphasis on tactics. Tactics in my individual presentation, the creative person is somewhat higher standing of different rules, charters, templates, etc. That is, a man is a nugget for whom these issues are not work, but art. Semenov recalled that even at the post of chief of the Moscow School, Rozhestvensky long before the war knew about its inevitability. But he didn’t do anything, I remember the detachment with Oslyaby, as he didn’t push him, he didn’t push him to Arthur before the war, and after the start it was possible to try a breakthrough in Vladik. The rush of the squadron with Navorin and Sisy was not required, and their forces could be modernized in Vladik.

        There were options for revising the main base instead of the not very successful Arthur ..... but even there the governor and his mediocrity missed time due to departmental red tape and a chronic lack of finances.
        As the head of the military school, he was obliged to visit the threatened region, put all the questions in sight, and take up close preparation for the war. Nothing was done, there was a calculation that the new battleships would succeed, and when the Japanese appeared on the theater of war, they would be scared and would not risk attacking - the first error, like the subsequent one, slip through with the 1nd squadron with small losses. In short, in the main issues (strategy) he is catching up! and in the end, she won’t be in time anywhere.
        Moreover, Zinovy ​​Petrovich did not have any experience of war, like Jessen did, he completed the squadron strangely - the naval crews of the Black Sea battleships were not involved, etc ... mistakes and shortcomings in the sea! Gunners are generally piece people, they must be selected according to the pyramid system to the main gauge of battleships, i.e. the best of the best are sorcerers who should not climb out of landfills for years. If they were taken to the 2nd squadron with the world on a thread, then what to talk about? it means not only the admiral, but we just didn’t know how or didn’t want to train snipers - gunners. And what about the campaign he wanted to put in combat training - complete nonsense, again everything in tactics - because of the different technical capabilities of the ships, their technical condition and other similar things.

        The only thing that Rozhestvensky’s meaning was at the headquarters was the position of the head of the rear, he really could organize, provide, prepare, coordinate.
        1. 0
          8 July 2017 18: 25
          Quote: Novel 11
          And how do they compare with the Japanese?

          The effectiveness of fire in Tsushima is indicated by Japanese sources - there are no others
          Quote: Novel 11
          Is it better to shoot than the gunners from the 1st?

          Many times better. July 28, 1904 in the battle of Shantung, which took place when Witgeft led the Russian squadron to breakthrough, 32 (or 33, one hit unreliable) shells of all calibers, including unidentified ones, fell into Japanese ships. Under Tsushima, Mikado ships suffered significantly more - according to the article by N.J. M. Campbell, "The battle of Tsushima" from the magazine Warship International (1978, part 3), ships of the first and second armored detachments (i.e. 12 armadillos and armored cruisers of the main forces) received 156 hits. The total number of hits in Japanese ships was, according to the "Surgical and medical description of the naval war between Japan and Russia." (Medical Bureau of the Maritime Department in Tokyo. - 1905. "" About 117 shells with a caliber of 120 mm and above and about the same number of smaller calibers. "That is, over 230 hits.
          Actually, an excellent litmus test is the first 15 minutes of the battle at Tsushima. Only a few ships could shoot at Mikasa (no more than six, and that is doubtful), but in a quarter of an hour they threw Togo's flagship 19 hits. 1Toe reached roughly 24 hits in Mikasu for the whole battle - and this, taking into account the fact that Mikasa walked along the line of Russian EDB for an hour and the fire of all six was concentrated on it!
          Quote: Novel 11
          In fact, this admiral always caused neglect.

          This is primarily because you did not give yourself any trouble figuring out who he was and what Rozhdestvensky was responsible for. Your comment on this evidence - you obviously confused the functional of the admiral-general and the chief of the military school. Rozhdestvensky didn’t have half the power for what you are writing about, despite the fact that on a number of questions that you raised, even “7 pounds of August meat” did not have a decisive vote
          1. +1
            8 July 2017 18: 52
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Many times better. July 28, 1904

            And what are the explanations? I have the first combat experience after all. Did they shake the nerves?
            According to Tsushima, if the quality of the shells is the same as that of the Japanese, then who knows. Then, the more so the admiral is guilty, given these facts, and before appearing in battle, he was OBLIGED to check what he would shoot at the enemy, without the crew having combat experience. How it should have been his competence, but before the battle the target ship with armored plates in the squadron should be. There they would find out the quality of their ammunition, in addition to the accuracy of shooters. From this, tactics must be chosen for battle. And given the predictable Japanese landmine, the tactics suggested itself - the hitch for a pistol shot, our armor was good, and the line-up of artillery was just done on the bow.
            He wonders why he didn’t interact with others ?, didn’t plan, did not discuss, this battle is such a line where, from a half-view, his actions should be miscalculated. The admiral, on the contrary, centralized everything in a vice.
            1. +1
              8 July 2017 21: 05
              Quote: Novel 11
              And what are the explanations? I have the first combat experience after all. Did they shake the nerves?

              What combat experience? The firing of 1903 was not completed, from the end of 1903 - in reserve, left it immediately before the war, a little shot at the very beginning (not all) - and the paragraph, to protect and not risk, only Makarov took to the exercises at sea. With the exception of this period, and before the release of July 28, 1904, the ships stood on a joke.
              In order to have something to compare - if we recall the results of the shooting of the memory cruiser “Memory of Mercury” in 1911 before standing in the armed reserve for three weeks (57%) and after it (36%), we will see a 1,58-fold decrease in accuracy . Here - almost 9 months were defended, despite the fact that at the end of 1903 there was a demobilization and a fairly decent number of old-timers left the squadron, and newcomers came in their place, and even there was a non-assembly.
              So, there was no special combat experience in the 1st TOE for its breakthrough - but there was a complete disconcerting experience. In contrast to the 2 TOE of Christmas.
              Quote: Novel 11
              Then, the more so the admiral is guilty, given these facts, and before appearing in battle, he was OBLIGED to check what he would shoot at the enemy, without the crew having combat experience

              How? Firing own battleships? By the way, the Arthurians did not at all believe that something was wrong with their shells and did not indicate this in the reports.
              Quote: Novel 11
              How it should have been his competence, but before the battle the target ship with armored plates in the squadron should be.

              neither we nor the Japanese had this.
              Quote: Novel 11
              And given the predictable Japanese landmine

              And who knew that the Japanese would be fighting precisely with land mines in Tsushima? On July 28, they used "shimose" shells, either in a very limited amount, or not their "furosiks" with a huge amount of shimose, but "reloading" the British shells, in which the space under the explosives was much more modest. With what Rozhestvensky faced in Tsushima, the Russian sailors had not encountered before and had no reason to expect such a meeting.
              Quote: Novel 11
              tactics by itself suggests itself - a hitch for a pistol shot

              Given the fact that Togo in the battle on July 28, he himself was forced to climb to the Russians for a pistol shot to stop the erupting Russian EDB? :))))
              July 28 (in short) looked like this - at first Togo tried to fight at great distances and absolutely did not succeed, and then he was forced to climb into a “clinch” from a very bad position because he had no other option to stop the Russians before dark. At the same time, with the view of the Japanese, only an accident (the death of Wittgeft) helped. According to the experience of July 28, Rozhdestvensky should have expected the Japanese to rush to the clinch, moreover, with a high degree of probability - from the very beginning of the battle. So, in theory, he did not need any special frills for this pistol shot.
              Quote: Novel 11
              He wonders why he did not interact with others ?, did not plan, did not discuss

              Why? He made a completely fair conclusion on the results of the July 28 battle. As long as the squadron maintains its formation and goes on a breakthrough, it is practically invulnerable. Accordingly, Rozhestvensky ordered that in the event of the flagship's failure, the ship was led not by the next admiral, but by the next ship (since when another admiral tries to take the lead in the ranks, confusion is possible, which happened in the battle on July 28 - Ukhtomsky, despite everything attempts, could not lead the squadron after the death of Vitgeft), and all the ship commanders were bound by order to go to Vladivostok.
              CHRISTMAS actually gave the squadron a simple and understandable plan, adhering to which, the squadron would go to Vladivostok on one condition - that the Japanese would fight with about the same efficiency as July 28.
              Those who blame Rozhdestvensky for the absence of any detailed plan of the battle somehow forget that such plans were never made by Ushakov, Togo, Nelson or other naval commanders. A naval battle is too complicated to plan ahead of time. Usually the most general directions and order are given - well, Rozhestvensky did it
          2. 0
            8 July 2017 18: 59
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Rozhdestvensky didn’t have half the power for what you are writing about, despite the fact that on a number of questions that you raised, even “7 pounds of August meat” did not have a decisive vote

            Then otaka laughing
            He didn’t scarecrow in the garden? Why then this debate about Tsushima, if he could not? hi
            1. 0
              8 July 2017 21: 07
              Quote: Novel 11
              Then otaka

              It is not even funny.
              1. 0
                8 July 2017 21: 11
                And what do you see Andrew as the cause of the disaster? Bad ships, bad leadership, bad tactics, or is it still a shimoza?
                1. 0
                  8 July 2017 21: 16
                  Maybe you had to go in two parallel columns?
                2. +1
                  8 July 2017 21: 36
                  Quote: Victor Wolz
                  And what do you see Andrew as the cause of the disaster?

                  And I them here listed in detail :)
                  1) The low squadron speed of the Russians in comparison with the Japanese (I say right away - this is not a matter of coal overload, it was not there before the battle). And this is not a question of separating the 4 latest EDBs and Olyabi into a separate detachment - even in this case they were still inferior to the Japanese. At the maneuvers of 1901-1903, the British were convinced that a superiority of 1-1,5 knots in line speed with at least a minimally comparable level of naval talent guarantees victory.
                  2) The quality of Russian shells.
                  To this, in principle, one could try to add a very early injury to Rozhestvensky himself, but I do not think that he could fundamentally change anything. In any case, the commander of “Alexander III”, the field of failure of Suvorov took, perhaps, the only right steps, but they did not lead to success (although “Asam” was kicked out of the line and “Fuji” almost exploded), but Alexander himself was seriously injured and here the battle was already lost
                  As a matter of fact, the mind games on the topic “what would happen if the Russians had in Tsushima 305 mm post-Tsushima shells arr 1907” lead to the fact that during the first 15 minutes the Mikas could well be knocked out, and Togo - killed or seriously injured. It would be very difficult to say what it would have turned out for the Japanese, who had started a dumb and stupid maneuvering (Togo loop) - but hardly anything good :)
                  That, in fact, is all. Despite the exhaustion of the long transition, the sailors fought decently (with the exception of Nebogatov's surrender) and skillfully - Rozhdestvensky still managed to put together an combat-ready squadron at the crossing.
                  1. 0
                    8 July 2017 23: 18
                    I agree with you on the issue of speed and shells. If Rozhdestvensky had the courage to send home a slow-moving junk with old short guns and auxiliary cruisers, speed would probably be faster. But the defeat was forged earlier when the unnecessary BWOs, armored cruisers Gromoboy and Bayan and armored cruisers were built, and the Japanese built Asams. Have we not seen what they are building? It would be better if instead of 9 armored cruisers we would have 5-6 armored cruisers like Azuma or Yakumo. And instead of 3 BWOs, one full-fledged battleship of the Retvisan type.
                    1. +1
                      8 July 2017 23: 57
                      Respected!! The speed of many auxiliary cruisers was comparable to the speed of the 1st-class EDB
                      1. 0
                        9 July 2017 10: 02
                        And why are former steamers without armor needed in a battle of armored forces? They are needed for the search for smuggling, inspection of ships on supply lines.
                    2. 0
                      10 July 2017 10: 27
                      Ships of Nebogatov are ships of the training detachment, with the best gunners.
                      And their shells were not defective. They left later.

                      Asam are bad ships. The fire performance is low, the reservation does not allow you to resist armadillos (on the first two harbors in general, and even very poor quality). And the speed does not allow you to get away from the armadillos or catch them.
                      It was just luck. Razpiarili. Marketing, as one hero said.
                      1. 0
                        10 July 2017 14: 23
                        Quote: ignoto
                        Ships of Nebogatov are ships of the training detachment, with the best gunners.

                        Where from? there was no permanent composition of artillerymen - they were custom and were dispersed to other ships
                      2. 0
                        10 July 2017 19: 30
                        Old armadillos and cruisers, slow with old short guns, do you think are full-fledged combat units?
                      3. +1
                        10 July 2017 19: 36
                        Are Asams Bad? perhaps this, if there is anything to compare, neither Bayan, nor Thunderbolt, nor even the armored decks could take off to compare. They became obsolete by 1906-7, but they did their job, the battle of Rurik, Varyag and the finishing off of our 2 Pacific squadron confirm this.
                  2. 0
                    10 July 2017 19: 17
                    This is exactly what happened during the simulation of tsushima with one change - NORMAL shells, the Japanese were killed about 2 TOE in 9 cases of 10.
      2. 0
        9 July 2017 13: 27
        Andrei, you’ll excuse me, but what about the Vesta fight? If Rozhdestvensky, a direct participant, doubts the feat? In this case, his rewards are also invalid? , I can not understand.
        Regarding Rozhdestvensky and his skills: during the Union, the battle itself was regarded as a disgrace to the Russian Federation and, accordingly, the admiral himself was evaluated negatively.
        Andrei, I’ll say without any flattery, I learned more on the pages of the site in 30 years (thanks to you as well)
        1. 0
          9 July 2017 18: 26
          Quote: Monarchist
          Andrei, you’ll excuse me, but what about the Vesta fight?

          A brief but accurate description is given here http://www.aif.ru/society/history/sekret_vesty_is
          toriya_zagadochnogo_podviga_russkogo_flota
          Quote: Monarchist
          Regarding Rozhdestvensky and his skills: during the Union, the battle itself was regarded as a disgrace to the Russian Federation and, accordingly, the admiral himself was evaluated negatively.

          I myself also thought for a long time :)))
  12. +1
    8 July 2017 22: 40
    What interests me most is the fact that Rozhdestvensky, being a professional artilleryman, did not pay attention to the state of artillery at the squadron ...
    1. 0
      8 July 2017 22: 48
      Quote: Taoist
      What interests me most is the fact that Rozhdestvensky, being a professional artilleryman, did not pay attention to the state of artillery at the squadron ...

      ????:))))) What is it like?:))))
      1. +1
        8 July 2017 22: 59
        And how many artillery exercises were there? Again, only the lazy did not write about problems with pyroxylin ... But is there at least some kind of reaction? And in theory, Rozhdestvensky should have known about issues with hygroscopicity ... Well, and so on ... Questions about centralized fire control of a squadron ...? But he stood at the origins of automatic fire control systems ... In general, everything is very muddy there.
        1. 0
          8 July 2017 23: 11
          Quote: Taoist
          And how many artillery exercises were there?

          Quite a lot, and more than the Japanese.
          Quote: Taoist
          Again, about the problems with pyroxylin only the lazy did not write ...

          In our time, yes. Then we were still sure that our shells are the most shells in the world
          Quote: Taoist
          And in theory, Rozhdestvensky should have known about issues with hygroscopicity ...

          Sorry, I didn’t understand what was wrong there?
          Quote: Taoist
          Questions centralized fire control squadron ...?

          Which at that time not a single fleet in the world owned? What is interesting - after - too. In the same jutland, a ship whipped against a ship, concentrating fire of a maximum of two ships on one target (with rare exceptions)
          Quote: Taoist
          But he stood at the origins of automatic fire control systems ...

          And he taught his gunners to use their materiel properly
          1. 0
            8 July 2017 23: 24
            IMHO ... does not convince. The percentage of hits contradicts ... And the only team in the whole battle to “hit on the head” ... Well, let's say ... it does not convince.
            1. 0
              9 July 2017 18: 00
              Quote: Taoist
              IMHO ... does not convince. The percentage of hits contradicts ...

              The percentage of hits actually confirms :))
              Quote: Taoist
              And the only “hit on the head" team for the entire battle

              I strongly doubt that on Suvorov there was anything to raise signals to when this team ceased to be relevant
          2. +1
            10 July 2017 10: 32
            Neither centralized fire control, nor shooting tables, nor distance measuring devices at the declared range. There was nothing under Tsushima. Perhaps the battle, if it really took place, did not happen like that, or not at all.
            1. +1
              10 July 2017 14: 33
              Quote: ignoto
              No centralized fire control

              It was, moreover, even more perfect than that of the Japanese. Moreover, the high accuracy of the Russian EDB at the beginning of the battle is precisely connected with its use - as soon as the centralized fire control was knocked out, the accuracy dropped significantly.
              Quote: ignoto
              no shooting tables

              And what happened to them? :)
              Quote: ignoto
              no declared distance measuring devices at the declared range

              Those. neither the range finders of barre and jet, nor the optical sights ... Wait a moment, I cry in three streams :))))
        2. +1
          16 September 2017 12: 02
          Quote: Taoist
          And in theory, Rozhdestvensky should have known about issues with hygroscopicity ...

          Obviously, you mean humidity, since nitrocellulose, and even under the conditions of packing in the shell of the projectile, practically does not absorb moisture from the air.
          Suppose that ZPR knew about the moisture content of pyroxylin. Even, most likely, he knew for sure, since this issue was also resolved even before the squadron left. What's next? How should he react and what to do? Humidity of explosives is a technological parameter, it is set at the production stage and is controlled at the last stage - drying. After that - everything, it is impossible to change it.
  13. +2
    8 July 2017 23: 12
    [quote = Andrey from Chelyabinsk] Unfortunately, very mediocre [/ quote]
    Andrei, I was waiting for your assessment, since I consider you to be a very knowledgeable person in a raised topic.
    Now I will answer point by point.
    [quote = Andrey from Chelyabinsk]
    In fact, this is completely wrong. The squadron practiced barrel firing, only rifle cartridges were consumed (according to very reasonable assumptions) at least 8 thousand pieces. In general, Rozhestvensky drove his commandos even more intensively than the Japanese expected. [/ Quote]
    There is no word in the article that there was no stem firing. However, the same book, “Reckoning,” points out the imperfection of this method of training gunners.
    Although Rozhestvensky had the opportunity to train the commandos of armadillos using 120-mm guns of auxiliary cruisers (since their ammunition could be spent without saving), he did not use it.

    [quote = Andrey from Chelyabinsk]
    And here as Semenov described this moment ... [/ quote]
    He writes, in fact, the same thing that Rozhdestvensky said. What is my wrong?

    [quote = Andrey from Chelyabinsk]

    Only one question - why Vladivostok, and not in the Laperouse Strait? [/ quote]
    Because Togo would have received information that the Russians took a circular path only when our squadron was already in the Laperouse Strait. Accordingly, he should have had just enough time to gather his forces on the way to Vladivostok.
    Actually, this was confirmed by the Japanese themselves during conversations with our prisoners. I will try to submit quotes later, so as not to be unfounded.

    [quote = Andrey from Chelyabinsk]
    The author only forgot to note that at speeds of 9-11 knots, Nebogatov’s ships already managed to lag behind his main forces. [/ quote]
    The author would like to note that after Nebogatov took command, he led a detachment at a speed of 12 knots and not one of his ships lagged behind. Namely, such a speed was enough for Wittgeft to avoid crossing in the July 28 battle.
    Where does the information about the lag of the 3 squad at 9-10 nodes come from?
    [quote = Andrey from Chelyabinsk]
    I would like to know how the author got this funny idea in every respect? What was so unexpected about the appearance of the main forces of Togo and who described the unexpectedness of the moment? :)))) [/ quote]
    It is not that Rozhdestvensky did not expect to meet them at all.
    Just if the ZPR knew exactly when they would appear, it would hardly have committed the evolution that led to the speedy death of the battleship Oslyabya and predetermined the outcome of the battle.

    [quote = Andrey from Chelyabinsk]
    And given the fact that sighting is generally possible only for the observed target (but not a certain point in space) ... / quote]
    Andrei, to solve this shooting problem at a certain point, it is enough to know the speed of your ship, heading angle, distance to a point and trigonometry of the 7 class. The ships had absolutely nonzero dimensions, which is why the errors in the circulations described by them are completely balanced.
    [quote = Andrey from Chelyabinsk]
    Well, the author (alas, it becomes a tradition) painstakingly omits everything that does not fit into the logic of his article - for example, the magnificent shooting of Russian battleships at the "Mikasa" in the eyeballs of the battle, etc. [/ quote]
    I, as you must have noticed, did not write at all how neither ours nor the Japanese shot. It's just that this article is not about the course of the Tsushima battle, but about Admiral Rozhdestvensky. Pointing to the fallacy of his decisions, I did not mean to say that he was the only culprit in the defeat.
    1. 0
      9 July 2017 17: 57
      Quote: Ivanchester
      There is no word in the article that there was no stem firing. However, the same book, “Reckoning,” points out the imperfection of this method of training gunners.

      Well, I have to admit my mistake - your phrase
      Admiral Rozhestvensky retained the opportunity to continue training commandants, using either small-caliber guns of armadillos and cruisers (there were a lot of shells for them)

      I took it precisely as a proposal for the organization of stem firing. Now I understand that you didn’t mean this, but shooting directly from small-caliber guns + auxiliary guns. cruisers.
      Why did this error happen? Because your proposal could not have crossed my mind. The fact is that in this way, as you propose, it is impossible to train the commandants of shooting. As you know, the very procedure of aiming and loading turret 305-mm and 152-mm guns have a number of fundamental differences from the same 47-mm bullets aimed at the target using the shoulder rest. Those. By teaching the commandant to shoot from a small-caliber gun, you will teach him this, but in a 305-mm tower, such skills will be useless.
      As for the medium-caliber artillery of auxiliary cruisers, it would theoretically be possible to try to teach the commandants of the medium-caliber artillery Oslyaby and the ships following it (the towers of the 152-mm towers of the battleships of the Borodino type still required different skills), but only with one condition - dismantling artillery on cruisers and installing it on armadillos.
      Take, for example, such an aspect of gunner training as pitching compensation. It is clear that in those years they had no idea of ​​stabilization, so the task of the gunner was not only to correctly set the scope (say, 30 kb), but also to “twist” this same scope during pitching compensating for the changing roll of the ship. It is also clear that both the rolling period and its other indicators are largely individual for each ship, therefore, such training should be carried out precisely on your ship, and not on any other.
      As for stem firing - yes, Semenov is absolutely right, such exercises can not replace full firing. But the combination of stem and conventional firing allows us to prepare excellent commandants, which we see in the Japanese fleet. In general, the Japanese fleet in Tsushima shot significantly better than under Shantung. However, in the interval between these battles, the same Mikasa participated in only one training shooting (spring 1905), on which it fired only 8 shells with a caliber of 305 mm. But on stem firing, Mikasa spent over 9 thousand rifle cartridges. If you compare these indicators with the consumption of shells of the battleship "Orel" - 40 305-mm shells and about 8 thousand rounds, it seems that Mikasa spent more rounds, but it must be borne in mind that Rozhestvensky used not only rounds for ammunition, but also small-caliber shells , and their consumption is calculated in thousands. Thus, it can be stated that Rozhdestvensky in the campaign managed to arrange no less intense teachings than Togo at home.
      At the same time, when reading your article, you get a completely different feeling: “I kind of taught, but having missed a bunch of opportunities”
      But the discussion of teaching methods in isolation from the results does not allow to draw any conclusions. At the same time, the results of the Rozhdestvensky EDB firing ... no matter how surprising it may sound, not just excellent, but perhaps they can be considered unsurpassed for our fleet - it shot much better than the 1st TOE, better than the Baltic ships in the WWI and better than the Black Sea battleships in battle at Cape Sarych.
      1. 0
        9 July 2017 17: 58
        And no worse than the Japanese in the battle of July 28. The only problem is that the Japanese shot at Tsushima even better than on July 28 ... But it is impossible to ignore the fact that Rozhestvensky exemplary prepared his gunners in very difficult (not afraid of the word - unprecedented) conditions of crossing half the world. I remind you that something similar was done by the American fleet, after Tsushima. But we must remember that any ports were open to the Americans while Rozhdestvensky was intensively driven even by neutrals.
        Quote: Ivanchester
        He writes, in fact, the same thing that Rozhdestvensky said. What is my wrong?

        The fact that Rozhestvensky had other reasons to refrain from learning to maneuver besides the desire you indicated to quickly reach your destination. One of them is an extremely intensive training course - 6 hours a day + nightly alarms, which is actually a lot. And besides, from eyewitness accounts, we see that at the beginning of the journey even an ordinary wake was a problem for our sailors. Generally speaking, any training is built on the principle of "from simple to complex" and in the actions of Rozhestvensky it is quite visible. I am silent about the regular breakdowns that pursued our ships.
        You see, you grab one skill that is significant for you - in this case, maneuvering, and accuse Rozhdestvensky of not having been engaged in it from the very exit from Libava. But it’s not so - the sailors didn’t know much from Rozhdestvensky, and they had to be taught everything that he, to the best of his abilities, did.
        Quote: Ivanchester
        Because Togo would have received information that the Russians took a circular path only when our squadron was already in the Laperouse Strait. Accordingly, he should have had just enough time to gather his forces on the way to Vladivostok.

        To begin with, let's recall that the 2nd-class cruiser Novik, which went to Vladivotok bypassing Japan, was detected and intercepted ... well, well, in the Laperouse Strait, but almost there :) And they discovered it just when he followed along Japan and sent the cruiser to intercept.
        I must say that the Japanese intelligence system provided for the possibility of Russian ships moving around Japan, and therefore certain forces (intelligence, of course) were deployed there. But most importantly, there was no doubt that the Japanese would learn about the release date of our squadron from the shores of Indochina. And if Rozhdestvensky does not appear in the Tsushima Strait in due time, then he went around Japan - i.e. waiting for messages from observers in the Laperuz Strait is completely unnecessary
        Quote: Ivanchester
        Actually, this was confirmed by the Japanese themselves during conversations with our prisoners.

        The only problem is that the Japanese themselves generally told our prisoners with three boxes. For example, Semenov was told how Japanese artillerymen, in anticipation of 2 TOE during the exercises, fired 5 ammunition per gun (I didn’t know that for 305-mm Mikasa guns, the ammunition load amounted to 0,4 shells per barrel laughing )
        And so - Togo was really going to go to intercept the Russians to Laperuz and for this purpose, on the eve of the battle, he reloaded his ships with coal.
        1. 0
          9 July 2017 17: 58
          Quote: Ivanchester
          The author would like to note that after Nebogatov took command, he led a detachment at a speed of 12 knots and not one of his ships lagged behind.

          This is not entirely true. There is a lot of evidence that the 3TOE could not stand the line: this is Semenov, and von Den, and de Livron, I will give the testimony of the flagship navigator Colonel Vladimir Ivanovich Filippovsky:
          “The speed of the new type of squadron battleships could develop 13 knots, no more, especially Borodino and Oryol were in doubt, and the whole squadron couldn’t give this move either. In the battle, we had a move of 9 knots and the 3rd armored detachment delayed. ”

          The Japanese noted the same thing. And about the fact that "they gave 12 knots" ... here’s the thing, there’s no speedometer on the ships, no lag will be left at night either, therefore, in terms of speed, they were guided by the number of revolutions of the screw, since a certain amount revolutions corresponds to a certain speed. But the speed may be lower if the ship is overloaded or something else ... Therefore, we can say that the “Nikolai” gained as many revolutions as the corresponding 12 knots, but whether it was 12 knots is an open question.
          Quote: Ivanchester
          Just if the ZPR knew exactly when they would appear, it would hardly have committed the evolution that led to the speedy death of the battleship Oslyabya and predetermined the outcome of the battle.

          The evolution of ZPR actually led to the fact that instead of the classic "crossing T" and no less than a classic rout in half an hour, the Japanese were put under attack in the "loop of Togo"
          It’s not Rozhestvensky’s maneuvering that was to blame for the Oslyaby’s death, but the extremely successful hit of heavy shells for the Japanese + the (possibly) disgusting quality of the building. In fact, only 3 305 mm shells determined the death of the ship - by the way, Peresvet got 11 305 mm, another 254 mm and one either 305 mm, or 254 mm (apart from the smaller ones) and sink he was not going to.
          Strictly speaking, given the difference in speed, Rozhestvensky didn’t have a tactical solution at all to avoid defeat - crossing T was inevitable and the Togo loop is an excellent result.
          Quote: Ivanchester
          Andrei, to solve this problem of shooting at a certain point, it is enough to know the speed of your ship, heading angle, distance to the point and trigonometry of the 7th class.

          :)))) If everything were as simple as you write :))))
          The first thing to know is the RANGE to the point. And you don’t know her at all, because in order to know her, you need to have a ship at this point, measure the distance to it with a range finder, and then check this very range by shooting.
          So, at that time, we had adopted a system for shooting from a single 6-dm gun. And it has a scattering ellipse length of 40 kbt - about 270 m. And you also need to accurately determine the moment the ship passes through the point, and this is not as easy as it seems, since you are guided only by the geometrical dimensions of the ship. And for sighting, it is necessary to use exactly the moment the ship passes through the point (and it walks plus minus cables and even more) i.e. cumulative error of error - up to 650 meters! And the sighting point shifts relative to you as you move along it ...
          In general, to shoot in such conditions is very difficult - primarily because of problems with determining the exact distance to the point. And without this, the "triangle for the seventh grade" will not be decided :)))
          1. 0
            9 July 2017 17: 59
            Quote: Ivanchester
            I, as you must have noticed, did not write at all how neither ours nor the Japanese shot. It's just that this article is not about the course of the Tsushima battle, but about Admiral Rozhdestvensky.

            I’m talking about this as a key mistake in the article. Instead of analyzing the results of Rozhdestvensky’s maneuvering and shooting, and from here to draw conclusions about Rozhdestvensky as a naval commander, you undertake to judge him on the basis of the training methods that he used.
            But you are not a sailor. You have no idea how the artillerymen were taught back then (in fairness it should be said that although I myself know this much more than yours, I assess my level of knowledge as an “extremely vague idea”) Accordingly, the path chosen by you leads nowhere - in fact, you blame Rozhdestvensky for not doing what you think is right, but the problem is that “it seems right” and “is right” are fundamentally different things.
            Then let me finish the comment - it is already monstrous in size :) hi
            1. 0
              10 July 2017 10: 21
              The fact is that you postulate that Rozhestvensky had no options to solve the problem of breaking through to Vladivostok. And, based on this, the correctness or incorrectness of his decisions generally fades into the background. Roughly speaking, he could order not to open fire at all - all the same, the result was destined.

              I am deeply convinced that a solution to this (essentially intermediate) problem existed. But ZPR made mistakes that led to a well-known sad outcome. And it was them that I tried to cover in my text.
          2. 0
            10 July 2017 10: 12
            There is plenty of evidence that 3TOE did not stand up

            The fact that "Nicholas I" and 3 BWOs were pulled back, suggests that they were poorly trained in wake operation, rather than the technical impossibility to develop speeds in 9-10 nodes.
            but whether he went 12 nodes - an open question

            Similarly, any data from any source can be questioned :)))

            The evolution of ZPR actually led to the fact that instead of the classic "crossing T" and no less than a classic rout in half an hour, the Japanese were put under attack in the "loop of Togo"

            I did not quite understand your idea: if the Russians had met Togo already in the ranks of one convoy, would he have acted differently? If so, how?
            IMHO, the rebuilding that ZPR arranged under enemy fire only led to the fact that Oslyabya was forced to reduce its course to the minimum, which allowed the Japanese to quickly shoot at it. All sources claim that the three hits of large-caliber shells came precisely in the weakly protected nasal tip (how many of them were in other parts of the battleship are not exactly known, but most likely there are also many). I am sure that it is not a matter of banal bad luck, but that the Japanese managed to concentrate fire on a well-shot target and quickly destroy it.

            In general, to shoot in such conditions is very difficult - primarily because of problems with determining the exact distance to the point.

            I absolutely agree with you, but it must be taken into account that even greater difficulties lie in wait for artillerymen trying to hit a moving target that periodically changes course.
            Of course, I’m not talking about the fact that our ships could show the 100% result if they fired at the turning point, but that they would fall more often than into the retreating Mikaza EDB - no doubt.
        2. 0
          10 July 2017 09: 37
          ... at Rozhdestvensky sailors on ships did not know how much and everything had to be taught that he, to the best of his abilities, did

          So, how do you evaluate the learning outcomes (in particular, maneuvering)? ZPR itself, for example, rated them low. Semenov the day before the battle noted that the “turns” suddenly “remained a stumbling block ...”, etc.
          I do not impute to the admiral that he did not try to organize training on the campaign, but that this training was not as effective as it could be.

          Togo was really going to go to intercept the Russians to Laperuz and for this purpose, in anticipation of the battle, he reloaded his ships with coal


          I doubt very much that he was going to do this and that’s why.
          Let's say that Togo has not received reports for several days that our squadron has entered the Strait of Korea. This may mean one of the following options:
          1. The Russians plan to go along the east coast of Japan and enter the Sea of ​​Okhotsk through the Laperouse Strait.
          2. Russians keep on the open sea near the Korean Strait and plan to enter it in the near (?) Time.
          3. The Russians have already entered the Strait of Korea, have missed out on his forces and are heading for Vladivostok.

          What can the admiral of Togo do in this case?
          1. Knowing that Vladivostok will be the endpoint of any route of Russian ships, move forward to it to intercept (or overtake) ours near this city.
          2. To bet on one of the options and either continue to wait for ours in the Korea Strait, or move to Sakhalin, thereby risking to miss our squadron to Vladivostok without a fight.
          3. Divide their forces for action in all three areas (as I believe, it was the case with the interception of the cruiser Novik), dooming them to battle with superior Russian forces.

          It is pretty obvious to me that he would choose the first of the described modes of action. Don't you think so?
          1. +1
            10 July 2017 18: 23
            Quote: Ivanchester
            What can the admiral of Togo do in this case?
            1. Knowing that Vladivostok will be the endpoint of any route of Russian ships, move forward to it to intercept (or overtake) ours near this city.

            I understand your discussion, I apologize.
            And how do you see the battle at Vladivostok?

            Should it be easier than Tsushima? Geographically, like yes. There are more pluses, by the way, before the campaign, ZPR was considering the capture of the Pescadors, which would help him little. By the way, before going out, it was possible to consider more options, for example, after Laperuz and bunkering, it was possible to drift off our shore for a couple of days. After detection, go back and go to the Commander’s .... all these gestures would have little to do, but the fight with Vladik by itself is a rapprochement with a pistol shot, with great success, in addition it is the help of the base ships ..... this I repeat, it could be arranged in the 6th. True, after the breakthrough, and even before the 6th year, there are many questions, and the main one is whether the army will keep the fortress? and will it not be cut off? Judging by the behavior of the Japanese, both the army and diplomats, they are already decently bleeding. Under Mukden, even a victory, but not a triumph. And then we did not have elite units - the same Grenadier Corps, the guard. There is confidence that create a field camp and base somewhere near Chita, replacing the command and strengthening the armies with regiments like Semenovsky, we could change the situation without the participation of the fleet!

            Individually, I think that we lost the naval war strategically - by the way, before Shatung, there were 16 battleships in the RIF! 5 minutes later, Borodino and Orel entered the ranks. This is many times more than Japanese. But we didn’t succeed or didn’t want to, but maybe saved, but we didn’t collect it at the right time in the right place. If the reason was the economy, then it was necessary to remove the fleet, as it became clear that the war was on the verge. It was possible to leave the gunboats, destroyers, yes 2-3 cruisers like Monomakh, Donskoy, Kornilov ..
            1. +1
              11 July 2017 09: 48
              The situation could have changed without a fleet.
              Russia's mobilization resources are higher.
              Japan is already exhausted, but Russia is not.
              Motivation failed.

              By the way, interesting points:
              1. The Japanese were seriously considering moving the capital to Seoul.
              2. Sakhalin was called the "peninsula" - was it the so-called Korean that was meant?
              3. The four main Japanese islands are the natural conclusion to the Kuril Islands. What four islands do the Japanese have in mind when it comes to gaining sovereignty?

              Then, what was this war, the so-called Russian-Japanese? With whom, and for what?
              1. 0
                11 July 2017 12: 02
                Quote: ignoto
                Then, what was this war, the so-called Russian-Japanese? With whom, and for what?

                For Korea and Kwantung. We had an expansion there, so it seemed to the Japanese ... what was the cost of one diplomatic intervention in the outcome of Sino-Japanese, hitting the pride of the sons of Mikado to the depth ..
                1. +1
                  11 July 2017 15: 05
                  For Korea, which is actually the "Sakhalin Peninsula"?

                  Or is it a war of the collapse of a single world state?
                  Civil War ?

                  The whole "ancient" history of China and Japan is a remake. The facts are not confirmed.
                  Yes, and the REV itself is very much like the Spanish-American.
                  The question is, who wrote it off from whom?
                  USE was not on them.
                  Oh, these tales, oh, these storytellers.
                  1. +2
                    11 July 2017 20: 07
                    Quote: ignoto
                    Yes, and the REV itself is very much like the Spanish-American.
                    The question is, who wrote it off from whom?

                    When I was 13 and 14 years old, respectively (1988 and 1989), I participated in two archaeological expeditions. And I remember exactly that I participated in TWO expeditions. BUT!
                    1) In 1988, the expedition worked in the Bredinsky district. In 1989, the same thing.
                    2) In 1988, the expedition was organized at the expense of Chelyabinsk State University. In 1989, the same thing.
                    3) In 1988, the main labor force on the expedition were student historians. In 1989, the same thing.
                    4) In 1988, we traveled first by train, then by bus, and then on foot. In 1989, the same thing.
                    5) In 1988, we lived in tents on the banks of the river. In 1989, the same thing.
                    6) In 1988, the expedition dug up the sites of the Late Stone Age, mounds and searched for sites of the early Stone Age. In 1989, the same thing.
                    7) In 1988, our main instruments of labor were scrap and bayonet shovels, and we worked them for 8 hours a day. In 1989, the same thing.
                    8) In 1988, we cooked our own food at the stake. In 1989, the same thing.
                    9) In 1988, your humble servant tried to knock wedges to female students. Not lucky. In 1989, the same thing.
                    10) In 1988, no one paid money for this work, but was fed for free. In 1989, the same thing.
                    11) In 1988, your humble servant worked for a month and then returned to his hometown. In 1989, the same thing.
                    12) In 1988, after returning to the city, the first thing that my comrades and I did was ice cream (on the way home from the station). In 1989, the same thing.
                    From the point of view of the new chronology, as well as conspiracy theories, I definitely was only in ONE expedition. And the fact that I remember two is just a false memory that hypnotists - agents of the Kremlin put to me as part of the project of rewriting world history ...
          2. 0
            11 July 2017 19: 52
            Hello, Hon. Ivanchester! hi
            I'm sorry to answer late, but it didn’t work out otherwise
            Quote: Ivanchester
            The fact is that you postulate that Rozhestvensky had no options to solve the problem of breaking through to Vladivostok. And, based on this, the correctness or incorrectness of his decisions generally fades into the background. Roughly speaking, he could order not to open fire at all - all the same, the result was destined.

            Exactly
            Quote: Ivanchester
            I am deeply convinced that a solution to this (essentially intermediate) problem existed. But ZPR made mistakes that led to a well-known sad outcome.

            In this case, however, elements of a scientific approach should be applied. You see, strictly speaking, the statement "Rozhdestvensky could have avoided defeat if he had better taught his squadron to maneuver" is quite equivalent to the statement "Rozhdestvensky could have avoided defeat if he had shaved his beard before the battle." Both statements, in essence, cost nothing without an evidence base that would explain how maneuvering (or shaving a beard) could affect the final result of the battle. Thus, to justify your statement, at least you need to imagine a maneuver that could be used by Rozhdestvensky and which would save him from defeat. You do not do this. You are limited to indicating "sticks over T" and the statement
            with a quantitatively and qualitatively equal naval composition of the two warring squadrons, the advantage was gained by one of them that made evolution (maneuvering) better and more accurately and whose commandants fired more accurately from guns.

            So immediately I would like to note that your list is very incomplete. At a minimum, success also depends on the tasks that each squadron solves :))) But now I will confine myself to the fact that the Russian and Japanese squadrons were certainly not equal in either quantitative or qualitative composition, and therefore this statement cannot serve as a justification Your statement about the need for maneuvering.
            In fact (absurd as it may seem) there is reason to believe that the ability to maneuver could not help Rozhdestvensky at all, but would rather do harm.
            Quote: Ivanchester
            The fact that "Nicholas I" and 3 BWOs were pulled back, suggests that they were poorly trained in wake operation, rather than the technical impossibility to develop speeds in 9-10 nodes.

            I'm afraid your statement is logically inconsistent. So during the day 3TOE could not hold 9-10 knots due to the inability to keep in the wake, and at night, when it was essentially difficult to walk in any formation, suddenly it gained the ability to go to the wake at 12 knots? :)))
            Quote: Ivanchester
            Similarly, any data from any source can be questioned :))

            So I expose them all :)))) It’s just that we reliably know that 3TOE was lagging behind while 2TO went 10-11 knots - it is confirmed by both ours and the Japanese, which gives reason to doubt their ability to determine their own speed.
            Quote: Ivanchester
            I did not quite understand your idea: if the Russians had met Togo already in the ranks of one convoy, would he have acted differently? If so, how?

            Oh, mine gott, just don’t say that you didn’t read Chistyakov’s “A Quarter Hour for Russian Guns! :)))
            The situation is very simple. If Togo saw a wake column in front of him, he would simply put Crossing T. on it. But he saw two wake columns in front of him, and a relatively weak second detachment marched between him and the latest Rozhdestvensky EDBs. Therefore, Togo decided to disperse in counter-courses with the Russians, having shot at point-blank ships of the 2nd detachment. But due to the fact that Rozhdestvensky pushed forward the Borodino-type EDB and the Russian squadron had rather a ledge formation, the Russians needed much less to rebuild than Togo had supposed. As a result, he “shone” at short notice on counter-courses with the entire Russian squadron, which was a bit skully (especially for the BRKR). It was too late to cross T and Togo had no choice but his “loop”.
            Chistyakov is sure that Rozhestvensky did all this on purpose. I believe that - by chance, but in any case the worst thing - "crossing T" and instant defeat - the Russian squadron escaped.
            Quote: Ivanchester
            “Oslyabya” was forced to reduce the course to the minimum, which allowed the Japanese to quickly shoot at him. All sources claim that three large-caliber shells hit precisely the weakly protected nasal tip (how many of them were in other parts of the battleship are not exactly known, but most likely there are also many)

            This is most likely incorrect. An analysis of the reports suggested that no more than three heavy shells entered the ship. In any case, Oslyabya received far fewer hits than the “Relight” on July 28, but he died.
            Quote: Ivanchester
            I am sure that it is not a matter of banal bad luck, but that the Japanese managed to concentrate fire on a well-shot target and quickly destroy it.

            In fact, the Japanese battleships were far from being in the best position to shoot the Oslyab, while the medium-caliber armored personnel carriers could not inflict decisive damage to the battleship due to the low power of the ammunition. It’s enough to recall how 4 Kamchatura armored personnel carriers crashed into focus on “Russia” and “Thunderhead”, each of which was armored much worse than “Oslyaby” - and really couldn’t do anything to them.
            Quote: Ivanchester
            I absolutely agree with you, but it must be taken into account that even greater difficulties lie in wait for artillerymen trying to hit a moving target that periodically changes course.

            This is not so, because in the case of shooting at a point you shoot precisely at a moving target, but if you just need to shoot at a ship when shooting at a ship, then in the case of a point - not just at the ship, but also at a specific point.
            Quote: Ivanchester
            Of course, I’m not talking about the fact that our ships could show the 100% result if they fired at the turning point, but that they would fall more often than into the retreating Mikaza EDB - no doubt.

            Just doubtful. The fire was opened when Mikasa turned around, i.e. it would be possible to shoot well if on the third armadillo, and to concentrate seriously, well if on the fourth. Then Fuji, Nissin and Kasuga would be hit, but even 10-12 hits would not be knocked out of action.
            And Kamimura, apparently, was unfolding at another point, so I would have to shoot back with a completely unclear result.
            Quote: Ivanchester
            So, how do you evaluate the learning outcomes (in particular, maneuvering)? ZPR itself, for example, rated them low. Semenov the day before the battle noted that the “turns” suddenly “remained a stumbling block ...”, etc.

            The results are as follows: the squadron fired at 4+ (the Borodino type was excellent) and maneuvered at three with a minus.
            Quote: Ivanchester
            What can the admiral of Togo do in this case?

            Go to the Laperuz Strait without options :)))) And if suddenly, subsequently, it turns out that the Russians nevertheless went through the Tsushima Strait (where they will be spotted instantly) - return to meet them and give battle somewhere between the Tsushima Strait and Vladivostok.
            1. 0
              11 July 2017 20: 20
              And yes, I completely forgot - 2TOE and 3TOE could not go around Japan without refueling. And with refueling ... this could not be done in principle.
              1. 0
                17 July 2017 10: 00
                I give a calculation in the text, which shows that it was really possible to do without additional loads.
                He took the data for him, among other things, from your article in which you analyzed the overload of the battleship Orel.
                The possibility of making the passage through the Laperouse Strait by 3 TOE ships is indirectly confirmed by the fact that Nebogatov planned to choose this route until he received instructions to meet with the 2 TOE in the South China Sea.
            2. 0
              12 July 2017 15: 12
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              In fact (absurd as it may seem) there is reason to believe that the ability to maneuver could not help Rozhdestvensky at all, but would rather do harm.

              I apologize for interfering, but a frequent change of course greatly affects the shooting. Of course, this depends on the speed at which it takes place, a wok fight is enough, where Jessen looped no worse than a snake in a frying pan. If not for these movements, then not only Rurik would have to be bad. There is a suspicion that Kami almost shot his ammunition and for this very reason. It was not easy, for almost the entire war, to strive to keep the fleet at the bases - 1. Save motor resources, avoid unnecessary repairs, ships on the move. 2. The ability to quickly reload ammunition and coal. Solid benefits - and this is another argument in the direction of entry through Laperouz, with a bias towards our shore. Although Togo did not plan this throw. There is a map, including his marching order, that he prepared to advance to Zugar, where Laperouse would have scanned clearly. But here, with a more balanced development of the operation, and most importantly prepared, it was possible to count on success, not luck. I emphasize that this should have been carried out no earlier than 1906, when the EQA would be in order and Glory went into operation. And besides this, there would have been the experience of submarines, destroyers, boats, and mines being transported by train .... Mines, for example, could be used to set destroyers.

              And once again about the competence of ZPR - maneuver is the main essence of tactics! Of course, without synchronism, it does not work, but the same Retvizan under Shatung - ONE, T almost sent your boasted crossing to the ballot box, there are already questions of psychology, who has stronger nerves .... Schensnovich quickly went limp, having received a splinter, but turned around in the 17th cabin on the side of Nissin! Therefore, captains and officers from the wheelhouse in close combat must be removed far away from sin, managed, you can’t do anything about it - sailors. But the admiral certainly has nothing to do on the battleships, as Makarov used to say - to the cruiser!

              Now, if you imagine a battle somewhere north of Vladivostok near the coast in 1906, if it is needed at all as the last breath of air and fits into the logic as such, then imagine, because our destroyers could also throw mine cans. Ours will know about them, the Japanese can only guess .... in any case, joining the battle at our fortress is not a joy to them, and even with submarines in positions. Given all this and considering options with these loops or lace of butterflies - how many Japanese will reconfigure the shooting? And this time, and given the "bright" time when you can work with art, there’s still a huge +, which affects accuracy, because the Japanese need to cause us more problems before dark. All these questions must be taken into account by the admiral and the fact remains - we we impose the battlefield, impose conditions (including the period of daylight) and we needed to impose the composition of forces. Rozhdestvensky did not analyze any of this, he was not a talented admiral. He grabbed onto one idea, initially dubious and without experience, lost everything as a gambler. I doubt that he studied not only Jessen lace, but also other patterns of previous companies: Sino-Japanese and American-Spanish.
              1. 0
                12 July 2017 15: 47
                Quote: Novel 11
                about competence of ZPR

                By the way, it would be interesting to consider the change of servants during the battle. Intensity, tension, physical capabilities - everything has limits, especially during a long battle, which of course affects the quality of shooting. Is there data on how often servants were rotated on our ships ..... and whether this was one of the reasons for our effectiveness in the first 15 minutes. under Tsushima?
                1. 0
                  12 July 2017 19: 20
                  Dear Roman!
                  I wouldn’t mind giving explanations on various issues, but maybe you can still sit down at the sources? :))))
                  Quote: Novel 11
                  Enough wok fight, where Jesse looped no worse than a snake in a frying pan. If not for these gestures, then not only Rurik would have been bad

                  Did you even see the maneuvering of units in that battle? Where is it "already in the frying pan"? :)))) Jessen (roughly) changed courses 10 times per battle, and the battle lasted (roughly) four hours and a quarter, so that every time after changing the course for at least 20 minutes he went smoothly. We are discussing how much Mikasa took in 15 minutes, and in much more difficult conditions
                  But in fact, this is not important, but how many hits Russia got with Thunderbolt. And they got 30-35 hits each. And, interestingly, the cruisers didn’t give a damn about it - the guns were mostly out of action due to shaking and breaking the arcs, but there was no question of drowning, or even just getting damage that threatened buoyancy.
                  Quote: Novel 11
                  There is a suspicion that Kami almost shot his ammunition and for this very reason.

                  Exclusively for you it exists
                  Quote: Novel 11
                  Solid benefits - and this is another argument in the direction of entry through Laperouz, with a bias towards our shore

                  It’s scary even to ask how this Jessen maneuvering and the proximity of Japanese bases turned your argument in favor of Laperouse
                  Quote: Novel 11
                  Although Togo did not plan this throw.

                  ??
                  Quote: Novel 11
                  There is a map, including his marching order, that he prepared to advance to Zugar, where Laperouse would have scanned clearly.

                  How does this compare with the previous statement? :)
                  Quote: Novel 11
                  I emphasize that this should have been carried out no earlier than 1906, when the EQA would be in order and Glory went into operation.

                  This emperor-emperor could not wait. If he was pleased even after Tsushima to fight before 1906, Japan would capitulate because of the inability to continue the war.
                  Quote: Novel 11
                  but the same Retwisan at Shatung - ONE, T almost sent all your vaunted crossing to the urn

                  Firstly, there was no crossing and even close, and secondly, “Retvisan” did not make much impression on the Japanese - in the sense that they continued to act as they were going and did not make any adjustments to their maneuvers
                  Quote: Novel 11
                  Now if you imagine the battle somewhere north of Vladivostok near the coast in 1906

                  And a pair of nuclear "Schuk-B" with "Kuznetsov" in cover. Roman, well, the Japanese will not delay their end to Vladivostok :))) They can intercept the Russian squadron much earlier - and they will.
                  Quote: Novel 11
                  we impose the battlefield, impose conditions (including a period of daylight) and we needed to impose the composition of forces. Rozhdestvensky didn’t analyze any of this.

                  Rozhdestvensky analyzed all this, and made quite reasonable conclusions. Of course, it’s easy for you to talk about how to give a fight in view of Vladivostok - but here is the misfortune, Rozhestvensky had no opportunity to give such a fight. Well, the Japanese did not agree, at least cry :)))
                  It was impossible to go through the Laperouse Strait. Purely theoretically, if Russian EBRs were overloaded with coal by death, they could have gone to Vladivostok at one gas station, but there is a nuance - the squadron would have been completely unworkable off the coast of Japan and if Togo had intercepted the Russians there, we would have to pay. And the squadron would crawl to Vladivostok with empty coal pits, had Togo there - would have nailed it almost without a fight. The option of loading coal on the road is very bad not only because it makes the squadron defenseless in case of an enemy appearance, but because of the crew’s great fatigue after loading - where to go into battle like this?
                  In general, Rozhdestvensky could not impose anything on the Japanese, and no one could, in his place.
                  Quote: Novel 11
                  I doubt that he studied not only Jessen lace, but also other patterns of previous companies: Sino-Japanese and American-Spanish.

                  You yourself first study the "Jessen lace", and then treat Rozhestvensky :)))) About other conflicts - well, I realized that you know nothing about them.
                  Quote: Novel 11
                  Is there data on how often servants were rotated on our ships ..... and whether this was one of the reasons for our effectiveness in the first 15 minutes. under Tsushima?

                  The rotation of servants, generally speaking, on Russian ships was practiced where possible, but in general this is done not from a good life, but from the smoke of the towers of our EDB. And rotation had no relation to accuracy (except negative). The decline in the accuracy of our EDB is directly related to the failure of the centralized fire control, which can be clearly seen from the Suvorov and Orel. The failure of the SLA was noted by the Japanese. In fact, they noted a very accurate shooting of our brigade carriers and concentrated fire on them alternately. After some time, the ship that fell under the fire sharply lost accuracy, although it fired with the same intensity. On the Eagle, this is generally obvious - the Japanese noted a drop in its accuracy approximately when, according to our data, a centralized fire control was established on the ship
                  1. +1
                    12 July 2017 20: 04
                    Dear Andrei, I always wondered why 2TE fought across Africa, and not through Suez. Did the Borodin displacement really push you through or a cunning plan?
                    1. +1
                      13 July 2017 19: 41
                      Great question, dear Victor! In fact, I did not disassemble it, it will be necessary to dig into it at my leisure. My memory tells me that one very respected person who specializes in the history of RPE once said that it was possible to carry out a Borodino-type EDB through Suez by properly unloading them, but this, alas, is all that I can say right now You question
                  2. 0
                    13 July 2017 11: 44
                    [quote = Andrey from Chelyabinsk] I kind of don't mind giving explanations on various issues, but maybe you'll still sit down at the sources? :)))) [/ quote]
                    For what and why? To speak patterns? As it is written in books ... ... can it also cram and memorize like poems? One comrade on Marx moved out, so he really speaks with his phrases. Are you only resting here ?, since your perception is book, I’ll clarify that besides studying literature, do you communicate here in other forums? You have passions - chess, women, investments .... Maybe a sport? It seems your roll in the naval theme is excessive. And these are not explanations, but your ideas, and individual ones.

                    [quote = Andrey from Chelyabinsk] Did you generally watch the maneuvering of the detachments in that battle? [/ quote]
                    You know…. I looked, and not only our schemes, Japanese and very different. And still vary.

                    [quote] Jesse (roughly) changed courses 10 times [/ quote]
                    It is unlikely. Nobody knows this, don’t even ask.

                    [quote] every time after changing the course for at least 20 minutes it went smoothly. [/ quote]
                    Then math says 3 times per hour X 4.5 = 13 - 14 turns in battle? Right?

                    [quote] But in fact, this is not important, but how many hits Russia got with Thunderbolt. And they got 30-35 hits each. And, interestingly, the cruisers didn’t give a damn about it - the guns were mostly out of action due to tremors and breaking arcs, but there was no question of drowning, or even just getting damage threatening buoyancy. [/ Quote]
                    So why is Kami behind? We almost did not answer because of problems. He had a great opportunity to get even for past flaws and our raids, with almost no shooting 2 cruisers .... Each successful next hit could be fatal for us. What is the secret? What book will you answer? Just do not about the feelings of compassion of the Japanese, it will become from them.
                    P.S. To this paragraph: the cruisers could not give a damn about it, the crew suffered great moral upheavals, especially Gromoboy, whose commander criminally held the crew according to the template at the top, because of which there were unreasonably large losses.

                    [quote] Quote: Roman 11
                    There is a suspicion that Kami almost shot his ammunition and for this very reason.

                    [quote] Exclusively for you it exists [/ quote]
                    So how was everything there? Did the Japanese tell you? Like Semenov? laughing

                    [quote] Quote: Roman 11
                    Solid benefits - and this is another argument in the direction of entry through Laperouz, with a bias towards our shore

                    It is terrible even to ask how this maneuvering of Jessen and the proximity of Japanese bases turned your argument in favor of Laperouse [/ quote]
                    This is again to your book receptivity .... Well, where did I refer to the campaign of 1905? You do not know what will be the state of our fleet and the Japanese by 1906? Laperuz elementary turned from mathematics and geography. But a frequent change of course would add + to the general piggy bank, but this is against the backdrop of floating crews. In addition, I have to repeat it again if you read inattentively - in the event that a breakthrough into the base was extremely necessary. But I am not a supporter of this breakthrough, because I do not see the point in it! If you work as a fleet, then only from a position of strength. And this is absurd, due to the lack of a tangible advantage.
                    I emphasize that to send light forces and mines to the railway base, and only then summarize their development from experience.
                    You don’t read any jumble, if a breakthrough is needed only through Laperuz, there simply cannot be other places, 99% of admirals will confirm this to you.

                    [quote] Quote: Roman 11
                    Although Togo did not plan this throw.

                    ??
                    Quote: Novel 11
                    There is a map, including his marching order, that he prepared to advance to Zugar, where Laperouse would have scanned clearly.

                    How does this compare with the previous statement? :)
                    [/ Quote]
                    Oh…. Well, I wrote it purely for you .... but again you do not like it. You are a book man))) He didn’t plan to throw to Laperuz, he planned to Zugar))))

                    [quote] Quote: Roman 11
                    I emphasize that this should have been carried out no earlier than 1906, when the EQA would be in order and Glory went into operation.

                    This emperor-emperor could not wait. If he was pleased even after Tsushima to fight before 1906, Japan would capitulate because of the inability to continue the war. [/ Quote]
                    E - no, here is the strategy, it is not so simple - our victory is not profitable for the Ango-Saxons. Could along the way come up with something tricky. Perhaps at sea they were held by our alliance with France? And yet we held almost the entire army in Europe! Is it simple?

                    [quote] Firstly, there was no crossing and even close, and secondly, “Retvisan” did not make much impression on the Japanese - in the sense that they continued to act as they intended and did not introduce any maneuvers into their maneuvers corrective [/ quote]
                    Do not la la, after his jerk he was at the center of the Japanese art, our people came to their senses after the circulation, experiencing something like a panic, because templates did not tell what to do. Retvisan quickly reduced the distance, which made it very difficult for the samurai, at vertical angles they were not at all joking and apparently were very nervous because of the fast rapprochement. Only the commander’s accidental wound corrected the situation, otherwise Nissin would have covered himself, it was an EDB with an jammed turret, the course was not complete due to the holes, the guns didn’t take everything ... Witgeft did not listen to the headquarters when he was offered to leave the front, etc.
                    1. 0
                      13 July 2017 11: 45
                      Quote: Novel 11
                      Now if you imagine the battle somewhere north of Vladivostok near the coast in 1906

                      And a pair of nuclear "Schuk-B" with "Kuznetsov" in cover. Roman, well, the Japanese will not delay their end to Vladivostok :))) They can intercept the Russian squadron much earlier - and they will.

                      I don’t understand anything, where to intercept? What are we talking about now - specifically about ZPR or the alternative version of 1906? If an alternative, then of course trusting our admirals is not short-sighted, if they managed to fail the war in this way, how much did we lose there in general? 17 linear?
                      The only ones who still had at least some hope were Chukhnin, Jessen. The rest are all sofa.
                      And if one promotes the alternative, then it’s clear that intelligence was needed there, a telegraph line was needed with Sakhalin and Kamchatka, etc.

                      Rozhdestvensky analyzed all this, and made quite reasonable conclusions. Of course, it’s easy for you to talk about how to give a fight in view of Vladivostok - but here is the misfortune, Rozhestvensky had no opportunity to give such a fight. Well, the Japanese did not agree, at least cry :)))
                      It was impossible to go through the Laperouse Strait. Purely theoretically, if Russian EBRs were overloaded with coal by death, they could have gone to Vladivostok at one gas station, but there is a nuance - the squadron would have been completely unworkable off the coast of Japan and if Togo had intercepted the Russians there, we would have to pay. And the squadron would crawl to Vladivostok with empty coal pits, had Togo there - would have nailed it almost without a fight. The option of loading coal on the road is very bad not only because it makes the squadron defenseless in case of an enemy appearance, but because of the crew’s great fatigue after loading - where to go into battle like this?
                      In general, Rozhdestvensky could not impose anything on the Japanese, and no one could, in his place.

                      And you know, it is so vague, if you take the worst - ZPR erupts in 1905, one fog and everything, it is unnoticed., Tsugaru continues to drift. If our 2 vehicles were not lit, then it is not known whether Tsushima, a masker of figs, especially in the part of painting ships, would have been.
                      Will you defend ZPR on these points, as an outstanding admiral?

                      You yourself first study the "Jessen lace", and then treat Rozhestvensky :)))) About other conflicts - well, I realized that you know nothing about them.

                      Nothing complicated - butterfly flutter.
                      And as usual, you have a book understanding, what about lace and other wars, for example, tell Yalu here? Besides the fact that you heard something there about Jessen’s movements, you didn’t understand anything. And about ZPR, there’s nothing to say, like you, long before the battle, he imagined that he knew everything ... .. theorist, then Novikov painted this connoisseur in a famous novel and I don’t think that he was mistaken, because ZPR was obviously embarrassed to appear in Russia without a fleet. Again I don’t know anything? Or you?
                      Well, I understand that you didn’t even try to read about Tsushima, I recommend starting your acquaintance with the stage of preparing for Bedov’s surrender: as the commander saved his honor with knowledge, this is even worse than Nebogatov’s, he had absolutely no chance except at the bottom, and yours had the opportunity to come to the base with Grozny.

                      And rotation had no relation to accuracy (except negative).

                      Unfortunately this is an omission .... Well, well, great experts steered.
                      1. 0
                        13 July 2017 11: 46
                        On the Eagle, this is generally obvious - the Japanese noted a drop in its accuracy approximately when, according to our data, a centralized fire control was established on the ship

                        Again 25 ... .. you see the battle in one world that you see, this nonsense is full on this topic, people also put on the basis of some replicas of eyewitnesses into a piggy bank, and like you, they rave that they know something, but in fact you are writing such nonsense, for example, ZPR you praise .... But the fact that he rushed headlong there, and even advocated for advice - a pure gamble, you are well done, but he had no chance. Although what are the chances if in such trifles as painting he is an ignoramus - it was necessary for Jessen not only to learn about lace, but also about paint.

                        One elementary episode to throw out the illusion from your head that you know something about Tsushima, and did not mislead others.
                        Watch the movie of Zapruder, there was shot the moment of the assassination of President Kennedy. If you watch this video 100 or 200 times, you have, however, as almost everyone has the idea that the bullet hits the president’s head in front of the tuple, i.e. the killer shot from a grassy hill. The very sharp throwing of the head back confirms the trajectory of the bullet ... ... it's hard to argue with this - the shots are stubborn things, besides there are so many witnesses who claimed that there were shots from there, showing the investigation about the presence of a conspiracy, i.e. version with a group of killers, as the first shots were fired from the back of the motorcade. But it wasn’t there, an autopsy, ballistic examinations, studies directly say - a bullet hit the back of the head!

                        Here everyone will start to wonder, how can they say so, because it is clearly visible that the head is cast not forward, but backward? It turns out that nerve spasms are not the same for everyone, the reaction takes place differently ... .. perhaps the vast majority would have it differently.

                        So throw away the nonsense of the Englishman, he was in chaos, what he counted there is like a pitchfork in the water and personal ideas are far from the truth. Therefore, I recommend to throw out filkin letters and go to the study of the subject, otherwise there is a feeling that you know something.
                  3. 0
                    16 July 2017 19: 04
                    In general, Rozhdestvensky could not impose anything on the Japanese, and no one could, in his place .-- This is how to look. Suppose that Zinovy ​​decided to deceive everyone and ... 2toe goes around Japan, but 3 toe remains off the coast of Yap and 2 or 3 days after the departure of Zinovia, it begins to attack coastal cities (ports) and fishing villages, then public opinion will require Togo to stop this, that is, the same German tactics in the first world to draw out a part of the fleet. Who will be forced to react and how? Without knowing what Zinovy ​​was planning, he will either have to go with the whole fleet in order to stop the disgrace (not knowing what forces are opposing him) or send part of the fleet (in which composition?) To find out. But Zinovy ​​leaves around all further. And?
            3. 0
              15 July 2017 23: 37
              Good day, Andrey!

              I could not answer you earlier, since I was on a business trip not far from your city (if you are really from Chelyabinsk :)).

              What I would like to say in essence.
              In this case, however, elements of a scientific approach should be applied.

              To the best of my ability, I applied it. I tried to list in the article what could be done, but was not done. Unfortunately, you and I do not have at hand two squadrons that would make it possible in practice to understand how important my considerations are, so that everything remains at the level of hypotheses.
              To substantiate your claim, at least you need to present a maneuver that could be used by Rozhdestvensky and which would save him from defeat

              I reason like this:
              1. It would be optimal not to go the Korean Channel at all and not have to follow for a long time in its narrow bottleneck (I’ll write about the opportunity to go through the Laperouse Strait).
              2. In the case of passing through the Korea Strait, it would be necessary to go in the formation of one wake column without leapfrog with rebuilding (I will write further about the "Quarter Hour ..."
              3. In the situation that Rozhdestvensky was in fact, it would be necessary, at about the moment the Kamimura detachment began to turn, make a turn about eight points to the left to diverge from the Japanese squadron, so that it was on a course perpendicular to ours.

              So during the day 3TOE could not keep 9-10 ties because of the inability to keep in the wake, and at night, when it was essentially difficult to walk in any formation, suddenly gained the ability to go into the wake on 12 nodes? :)))

              Obviously, only Nikolai did not go well in the wake. When he became the leader, everything returned to normal. :)))
              That at night the detachment maintained the speed of the 12-13 knots is confirmed, among other things, by the testimony of the senior officer of the Eagle. I hope that this EDB and the person who commanded it after the commander was injured will be relieved of your suspicions of inability to determine the speed of the ship.
              An analysis of the reports suggested that no more than three heavy shells entered the ship.

              If by "heavy shells" you mean 12 inches, then your point of view is probably true. However, taking into account the fact that Oslyabyu simultaneously fired at 8 ships and only 2 of them carried 12-inch guns, then 8-inch shells hit it, most likely, several times more. And the reason for this was the ease with which Japanese gunners could point their guns at a sedentary target.

              The fire was opened when Mikasa turned around, i.e. it would be possible to shoot well if on the third armadillo, and to concentrate seriously, well if on the fourth. Then Fuji, Nissin and Kasuga would have been hit, but even with 10-12 hits they would not have been knocked out.
              And Kamimura, apparently, was unfolding at another point, so I would have to shoot back with a completely unclear result.


              If your reasoning is correct, and according to the Kamimura detachment, they would shoot in the same way, then in the first fifteen minutes of the battle, three Japanese EDBs and three BRKR would receive 60-72 hits, that is, 40-50% of what they actually got for a many-hour battle. I think this is a good statistic.
              Note that these are six of the eight ships that focused their fire on the Oslyab. Perhaps, having received so many hits, they would have fired less efficiently and could not have put our ship out of action so quickly. Maybe “Suvorov” would not get as much as it was in a real battle. And, therefore, the balance of power would not have changed so dramatically already forty minutes after the start of the battle.

              maneuvered by three with a minus.


              And this is after a joint voyage lasting more than six months. Anyway ZPR - flawless? :)

              Go to the Laperouse Strait without options :))))


              Well, whether they will pinpoint or not, the question is, in general, controversial (He didn’t know that Rozhdestvensky would order hospital courts to unmask the squadron).
              But even in this case, there remained a significant risk for him to miss the narrow-minded Russian squadron somewhere in the vast expanses of the Sea of ​​Japan (He also did not know that Rozhestvensky did not mind when the enemy cruiser was watching his formation).
              So I have no doubt that our adversary would have moved to Vladivostok, this would have been much more logical.
            4. 0
              17 July 2017 09: 53
              Oh, mine gott, just don’t say that you didn’t read Chistyakov’s “A Quarter Hour for Russian Guns! :)))

              Honestly not read feel
              But filling that gap was not so difficult.
              I did not quite understand on the basis of what sources the author wrote it and made its conclusions.
              I got the impression that apart from the "Reckoning" and "Tsushima" nothing was taken into account. Here are just a couple of the most egregious absurdities:
              1. The author assumes that the Russians did not have to send sentinel vessels ahead of the main forces, since they had the opportunity to determine the distance to the Japanese, "evaluating the intensity of the spark signal." This is despite the fact that a few weeks before Tsushima ZPR issued an order denouncing the inability of most squadron ships to use the radio even to receive broadcasts from their own!
              2. The separation of the first armored detachment, its acceleration relative to other forces and subsequent integration into a common column were called the ingenious decision of the Russian admiral, forcing Togo to make a "loop". However, the testimony given by the ZPR itself, which clearly stated that it was planning to rebuild the first detachment to the front, but did not want to do this under the supervision of enemy cruisers, is completely inconsistent with this assumption.

              On the issue we are discussing with you, the following is said: "to complete the carefully prepared sticks over the T, the Japanese only had to make one movement - turn right on a course converging with the Russian at an angle of the order of 60 degrees."
              What would prevent our ship from doing a counter-maneuver (for example, turning right to diverge from the Togo column on the opposite courses) is not clear to me.
              1. 0
                17 July 2017 21: 46
                Greetings, dear Ivanchester!
                Quote: Ivanchester
                It would be optimal not to go the Korean Channel at all and not have to follow for a long time in its narrow bottleneck

                The only alternative is to go with Laperuz from its 42 km (in the narrowest part, near Tsusimsky - 180 km) where the Japanese could easily throw mines (depths of 20-40 m) Strictly speaking, if you could go there at all, it would be better behind a trawling cow. I do not argue that the Strait of Korea is not well designed to break through the squadron. Just Laperuz is not better :)))
                Quote: Ivanchester
                In the case of passing through the Korea Strait, one should go in the formation of one wake column without leapfrog with rebuilding

                So crossing T is all.
                Quote: Ivanchester
                In the situation that Rozhdestvensky was in fact, it would be necessary, at about the moment the Kamimura detachment began to turn, make a turn about eight points to the left to diverge from the Japanese squadron, so that it was on a course perpendicular to ours.

                As an option - yes, it was possible, but there are 2 nuances - after turning to the left, only the ships that turned can shoot at the Japanese and our position advantage is destroyed, and after that Togo makes a second turn to the left and puts you in a cross. But most importantly, such a maneuver was quite accessible to our squadron, as it knew how to follow the lead ship 2TOE. In other words, for what you propose there was no need to improve the art of maneuvering beyond what was.
                Quote: Ivanchester
                Obviously, only Nikolai did not go well in the wake. When he became the leader, everything returned to normal. :)))

                Excuse me, noble sir? :)))))
                Quote: Ivanchester
                The fact that at night the detachment maintained a speed of 12-13 knots is confirmed, among other things, by the testimony of a senior Orel officer

                Really? Could you quote this place? Kostenko - yes, he wrote about 13 nodes, but the Swede?
                Quote: Ivanchester
                If you mean "heavy shells" 12-inch, then your point of view is probably true.

                I’m talking about them
                Quote: Ivanchester
                However, taking into account the fact that Oslyabyu simultaneously fired at 8 ships and only 2 of them carried 12 inch guns, then 8 inch shells landed in it, most likely several times more.

                Easily, 6-10 shells 203-mm could well catch. But this would not affect the fighting capacity of Oslaby
                1. 0
                  17 July 2017 21: 46
                  Quote: Ivanchester
                  If your reasoning is correct, and according to the Kamimura detachment, they would shoot in the same way, then in the first fifteen minutes of the battle, three Japanese EDBs and three BRKR would receive 60-72 hits, that is, 40-50% of what they actually got for a many-hour battle. I think this is a good statistic.

                  Excuse me, I didn’t understand your calculation at all :))) After all, the Japanese didn’t turn in such a way as I understand (although in fact the plot of the battle is a complete mystery) Kamimura turned before Togo completed the turn and didn’t going to the wake of the 1st combat unit. So, shelling 1 EDB and 2 BRKR of the 1st detachment, and then another 3 BRKR of Kamimura will not work.
                  Yes, it was also physically impossible — it would be possible to transmit such a signal only in one case — if Rozhdestvensky had agreed in advance with the ship’s commanders that some flag was “to strike at the turning point of the 1st combat detachment” and some other the flag is "to hit the turning point of the 2nd combat detachment." But to prepare such signals in advance is absurd, but an attempt to transmit them in the usual manner would lead to the fact that ships 2 and 3TOE would start firing after the Japanese rebuilding (dial the signal, raise, wait until the squadron ships rehearse, dialing the same signal and only after that command "execute")
                  Quote: Ivanchester
                  And this is after a joint voyage lasting more than six months. Anyway ZPR - flawless? :)

                  Sorry, but I'm afraid that you are a little downplaying the tasks before him. Rozhdestvensky had to teach the squadron a lot. He taught as much as he could, and I must say, he greatly succeeded in a number of aspects of combat training. But, I repeat, such a transition is very difficult in itself, but for some reason you’re doing nothing, expect the admiral to not only lead the squadron halfway around the world (the USA did something similar after it, but all ports were open to them) but in the process, he will also make combat and political training out of subordinate students Excuse me, just imagine that you are an instructor, they gave you recruits of average physical training and sent you on a hike - 20 km or more a day on impassable roads, food - at the foot, dinner at the stake ... You’ll be killed there (like anyone on Your place) - one rubbish callus rubbed, the second - he burned his boots near the fire when dried, there are no spare ones, the third tent wasn’t dug up normally, at night it rain, it got wet and it got cold, the fourth one was almost cut with an ax when the firewood chopped, the fifth fire he can’t, because he doesn’t know how, the sixth, when trying to cook pasta in a naval way, mixed salt and sugar with sugar, why the rest they want to beat him with their feet and all sorts of other things ....
                  And yet you bring this group to the end point. We haven’t lost anyone, the guys are all taught how to live, they are vigorous, cheerful, well-fed and happy ... You are wiping up sweat, and they say to you: “Why didn’t you, my dear man, have taught their ballet along the way? It could have been a couple of hours by the fire before the lights out ... "
                  In general, like any analogy, it is slightly taut, but essentially true.
                  1. 0
                    17 July 2017 21: 47
                    Quote: Ivanchester
                    Well, whether they will pinpoint or not, the question is, in general, controversial (He didn’t know that Rozhdestvensky would order hospital courts to unmask the squadron).

                    Day squadron spotted without options
                    Quote: Ivanchester
                    But even in this case, there remained a significant risk for him to miss the narrow-minded Russian squadron somewhere in the vast expanses of the Sea of ​​Japan (He also did not know that Rozhestvensky did not mind when the enemy cruiser was watching his formation).

                    And what could he do? :) Send the cruiser Enquist "to the last and decisive"?
                    In fact, the “Izumi” was worth the attack, it could have been sunk - there was no sense in this, but it would have lifted the mood, and it’s not the last thing in battle. But when the detachments of cruisers appeared, it was no longer possible to drive them away.
                    Quote: Ivanchester
                    Here are just a couple of the most glaring absurdities

                    In fact, there are not as many absurdities as it might seem. For example, you write
                    Quote: Ivanchester
                    The author assumes that the Russians did not have to send sentinel vessels ahead of the main forces, since they had the opportunity to determine the distance to the Japanese, "evaluating the intensity of the spark signal." This is despite the fact that a few weeks before Tsushima ZPR issued an order denouncing the inability of most squadron ships to use the radio even to receive broadcasts from their own!

                    True, but it was enough to have ONE ship with experienced radio operators and a good radio station to make such a feat possible :)))
                    Quote: Ivanchester
                    However, the testimony given by the ZPR itself, which clearly stated that it planned to rebuild the first detachment to the front, but did not want to do this under the supervision of enemy cruisers, is completely inconsistent with this assumption.

                    True, but not quite - Rozhdestvensky really was going to rebuild the 1st detachment with a front line, but the maneuver failed, nevertheless the admiral did not change anything.
                    But I told you already - I do not share Chistyakov’s version in that Rozhestvensky set a conscious trap. However, I do not completely rule out (and even am sure) that these rebuildings of Rozhetvensky ultimately led to the Togo Loop.
                    Quote: Ivanchester
                    What would prevent our ship from doing a counter-maneuver (for example, turning right to diverge from the Togo column on the opposite courses) is not clear to me.

                    (shrugging) If you are not convinced by all three years of British maneuvers .... The British admirals have been unable to fend off crossing T even once. Despite the fact that the EMNIP for the third time the admiral came across for crossing, who had previously set up the crossing himself twice.
                    1. 0
                      20 July 2017 11: 22
                      Day squadron spotted without options

                      I dare to suggest that if ours were moving at least 200 km from the Japanese islands, they would hardly have been spotted. Do not forget that Togo's affordable sentinel vessels were concentrated near Tsushima. Yes

                      And what could he do? :)

                      No, the last and decisive is not our method! No.
                      You just had to shell them with the EDB and force them to retreat to a distance exceeding 60 kb. As I understand it, this would be enough for the enemy cruisers to lose the ability to properly monitor the actions of our squadron.

                      True, but it was enough to have ONE ship with experienced radio operators and a good radio station to make such a feat possible :)))


                      I agree, one is enough. It’s just to convince ZPR that this is the very ship that would be the task :) And it would be difficult to transfer messages from this ship to the flagship about the estimated distance to the Japanese. At least, apparently, they did not use the radio for this, because "the Japanese were chatting, Rozhdestvensky was listening" lol

                      If you are not convinced by all three years of British maneuvers ...

                      Andrey, please remind me where these maneuvers are described. I read about them exactly, but I forgot - I would like to refresh my memory.
                2. 0
                  20 July 2017 11: 11
                  Just Laperuz is not better :)))

                  No, it’s significantly better:
                  1) The width of the Laperouse Strait is really 42 km. The width of the eastern arm of the Korea Strait in the narrowest part between the islands of Tsushima and Iko is 49 km. In fact, there is no difference. But at the same time, the squadron that passed Laperouse’s throat immediately gets the opportunity to get lost in the expanses of an approximately 300-kilometer space between Sakhalin and the mainland, and in the case of the Korean Strait, it is forced to walk a distance of about 110 kilometers (or more 5 hours) in a relatively narrow corridor at a speed of 10 nodes). Accordingly, it is much easier to intercept it.
                  2) In the Laperouse Strait, not only the Japanese could make mine installations, but also ours (by the forces of the Vladivostok destroyers, for example). With a fortunate set of circumstances, if the enemy really went there to intercept our squadron, it would have been possible to inflict tangible damage on him, like the Germans in the Gulf of Finland, when they lost seven ESMs in one night.
                  Could you quote this place?

                  Please :)
                  The phrase is taken from that part of his testimony in which he explains why the “Eagle” did not try to get away from the enemy on May 15 and surrendered.
                  In addition, at high speed, the battleship carries a large breaker on the ram, and above the armor belt, there were already several large holes in the nose, through which, even at night, at 12 - 13 nodes, the battleship took a lot of water into the bow compartment of the battery deck.

                  Easily, 6-10 shells 203-mm could well catch. But this would not affect the fighting capacity of Oslaby

                  I believe that even the 15-20 eight-inch could get. Most likely, it was their hits that disabled one of the GK towers and caused severe fires on the ship. And that means that even if he had not sunk due to holes in the bow, he would have been very quickly disabled like Suvorov.
                  1. 0
                    22 July 2017 19: 19
                    Greetings, dear Ivanchester!
                    I will be brief
                    Quote: Ivanchester
                    I dare to suggest that if ours were moving at least 200 km from the Japanese islands, they would hardly be spotted.

                    Probably yes. But, firstly, it’s impossible to get to such a route at one gas station for sure, and secondly, all this still does not make sense, because Russian ships will be spotted on the way to Laperuza during the passage of the Kuril Islands.
                    Quote: Ivanchester
                    Do not forget that Togo's affordable sentinel vessels were concentrated near Tsushima

                    As far as I remember - not only. A surveillance system, including auxiliaries and coastal surveillance, has taken place in the Laperouse region
                    Quote: Ivanchester
                    You just had to shell them with the EDB and force them to retreat to a distance exceeding 60 kb. As I understand it, this would be enough for the enemy cruisers to lose the ability to properly monitor the actions of our squadron.

                    Excuse me generously, but this is exactly what Rozhdestvensky did :))))) He drove the Japanese cruisers to about 70 kb :)))
                    Quote: Ivanchester
                    At least, apparently, they did not use the radio for this, because "the Japanese were chatting, Rozhdestvensky was listening"

                    I completely agree, I do not think that Rozhestvensky used radio intelligence. At least I haven’t seen such data
                    Quote: Ivanchester
                    Andrey, please remind me where these maneuvers are described. I read about them exactly, but I forgot - I would like to refresh my memory.

                    This is bad. Before the death of the removable disk (I ran into a bad virus), I had links to the British periodical, where it is described, but now I can only offer Sazonov’s essay "Tsushima and the fact of speed", you can watch it here http://brummel.borda.ru/ ? 1-10-0-00000043-000-0-0-
                    1176122524
                    Quote: Ivanchester
                    The width of the Laperouse Strait is indeed 42 km. The width of the eastern arm of the Korea Strait in the narrowest part between the islands of Tsushima and Iko is 49 km. In fact, there is no difference.

                    There is - in Tsushima at least a mine cannot be set, in addition there is still a little space between Tsushima and Korea :)))
                    Quote: Ivanchester
                    But at the same time, the squadron that passed Laperouse’s throat immediately gets the opportunity to get lost in the open spaces of the approximately 300-kilometer space between Sakhalin and the mainland

                    Not this way. Squadron following the Tsushima Strait is not too difficult to detect, but just as easy to find a squadron in the Kuril Islands and (leaving the Tsugaru Strait, where Togo EMNIP was going to bore the main forces) to block the exit from Laperouse
                    Quote: Ivanchester
                    Not only the Japanese, but also ours (by the forces of the Vladivostok destroyers, for example) could make mine installations in the Laperouse Strait.

                    And add chances to sink our armadillos? Why don't you love them so much? Not only can the Japanese throw mines, so will we exacerbate ours?
                    And Togo, by the way, there is no particular reason to climb into the strait - he can easily meet Russians at the exit from it
                    And by the way - how are you going to drive our license plate destroyers with mines to Laperouse? :) From Vladivostok? How many kilometers are there one way? :)
                    Quote: Ivanchester
                    The phrase is taken from that part of his testimony in which he explains why the “Eagle” did not try to get away from the enemy on May 15 and surrendered.

                    Thank you!
                    Quote: Ivanchester
                    I believe that even 15-20 eight-inch could get.

                    It is completely excluded. The accuracy of the shooting of 203-mm cannons of Japanese cruisers during the whole war was completely unimaginable and was many times lower than 305-mm fire, and in order to reach 20 hits it was necessary to demonstrate just super-precision.
  14. +1
    9 July 2017 22: 21
    Friends, now explain to me how a man whose "maritime qualification" was hardly equivalent to the lieutenant’s could get a third of the Empire’s fleet in command? AS?!!!
    1. +1
      10 July 2017 16: 54
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      how could a man whose "maritime qualification" hardly corresponded to the lieutenant's qualification be able to take a third of the Empire’s fleet into command? AS?!!!

      An excellent question, I was racking my brains at one time ..... But alas, one can regret that such metamorphoses could have occurred not only under the decrepit autocracy. One trick with Frinovsky is worth it, though it can be attributed to Stalin's humor, but still.
      1. +1
        10 July 2017 21: 31
        That is, Rozhdestvensky is Russian Paulus? "And come on, brother, shoot"
  15. The comment was deleted.
  16. 0
    13 July 2017 21: 55
    Quote: Novel 11
    For what and why? To speak patterns? As the books say

    Novel, sources must be read for two reasons. Firstly, in order not to smack nonsense in the comments (it hurts!), And secondly, to avoid the epic landing in a puddle that just happened to you. Roman, I’m ready to pay you 500 bucks for a book that sets out the history of the REV as I do :))))) And if you read the sources, you would know that.
    Quote: Novel 11
    Are you only resting here ?, since your perception is book, I’ll clarify that besides studying literature, do you communicate here in other forums? You have passions - chess, women, investments .... Maybe a sport? It seems your roll in the naval theme is excessive.

    Roman, as a psychologist, you are even more mediocre than as a historian, although here it is extremely difficult to surpass you. Of course, I am far from telling you my biography, but you are communicating with a very successful top manager, a happy family man and father of three children. And yes, in spite of all this, I still find time to read sources on topics that interest me :)))
    Quote: Novel 11
    It is unlikely. Nobody knows this, don’t even ask.

    Roman, if nobody knows this, then what are you lying on your blue eye about Jessen "fluttering like a butterfly"? You do not read the sources, but claim that no one knows (!) Nevertheless assure me that Jessen was constantly changing course? (!!!) How do you know this? Have you received divine revelation after the third bottle?
    Quote: Novel 11
    Then math says 3 times per hour X 4.5 = 13 - 14 turns in battle? Right?

    Math is silent and looks at you reproachfully. In your opinion, a course change up to 180 degrees occurs in a second?
    4 hours 15 minutes the battle went = 255 minutes, 10 changes of course — one change of 25,5 minutes, counting 5,5 minutes per turn (which is a lot), we have at least 20 minutes without maneuvering in the same course after EVERY turn.
    Quote: Novel 11
    So why is Kami behind?

    Shells were over
    Quote: Novel 11
    What is the secret? What book will you answer? Just do not about the feelings of compassion of the Japanese, it will become from them.

    Yeah, the Secret of the Boarded Up Attic ... Kamimura spent almost the entire ammunition load but could not cause significant damage to Russia and the Thunder. Realizing that even having completely spent the BC, he still would not achieve anything, and fearing that his small armored cruisers could not deal with Rurik, he preferred a tit in his hand to a duck under the bed - he stopped the pursuit of Jessen and went to finish off Rurik. And Jesse could no longer defend Rurik - and so he fought so much time together against four and lost heavily in artillery.
    1. 0
      13 July 2017 21: 55
      Quote: Novel 11
      To this paragraph: the cruisers were far from spitting on it, the crew suffered great moral upheavals

      We are talking about cruisers, not about crews of cruisers. I understand that you are fluttering a butterfly from one topic to another, so I remind you that, generally speaking, I gave you an example of the stability of Russia and Gromoboy in response to your stories about how the cruisers Kamimura sank Oslyabya.
      Quote: Novel 11
      This is again to your book receptivity .... Well, where did I refer to the campaign of 1905? You do not know what will be the state of our fleet and the Japanese by 1906?

      Those. Do you believe that by 1906, Russian EDBs mysteriously increased their range by a factor of one and a half? By pike command, at your request?
      Quote: Novel 11
      You don’t read any jumble, if a breakthrough is needed only through Laperuz, there simply cannot be other places, 99% of admirals will confirm this to you.

      Have you ever talked with one about this topic? :)))) Or again a divine revelation? :)
      Quote: Novel 11
      Oh…. Well, I wrote it purely for you .... but again you do not like it. You are a book man))) He didn’t plan to throw to Laperuz, he planned to Zugar))))

      Togo was planning a throw to the Laperouse Strait. At the same time, in anticipation of the Russians in the strait, he was going to place the main forces at Tsugaru.
      Quote: Novel 11
      Do not la la, after his jerk he was at the center of the Japanese art, our people came to their senses after the circulation, experiencing something like a panic, because templates did not tell what to do. Retvisan quickly reduced the distance, which made it very difficult for the samurai, at vertical angles they weren’t joking at all and apparently were very nervous because of the fast rapprochement. Only a random wound of the commander corrected the situation, otherwise Nissin would have covered himself

      Absolutely illiterate lies from the first to the last word. The materiel with maneuvering schemes is here https://topwar.ru/103661-boy-v-zheltom-more-28-iy
      ulya-1904-g-chast-11-a-byla-li-panika.html
      Quote: Novel 11
      And you know, it’s so vague if you take the worst - ZPR breaks through in 1905, one fog and that's it

      What "one fog"? :)))))) Do you know the speed of the Russian squadron? And the length of the strait? Those. if you mean "one fog per week" - then yes, you're right :)))))
      Quote: Novel 11
      masker of figs, especially in the part of painting ships.

      Roman, do you even know what reasons Rozhestvensky did? :))) No? And why am I not surprised :)))
      I give you a hint - this decision of Rozhestvensky was ABSOLUTELY LOGIC and directly followed from the analysis of the experience of battles of the Russian-Japanese war. True, in the end, it turned out to be erroneous.
      Let’s answer a simple question, Roman. I believe in you :))))))))
      1. 0
        13 July 2017 21: 55
        Quote: Novel 11
        Will you defend ZPR on these points, as an outstanding admiral?

        Novel, the words "paragraph" and "delirium" are not synonyms. You are not even able to understand that morning follows night and Rozhdestvensky MORNING in any case was in sight. And after this day another night passed and then a new morning, and after it the day during which it could still be discovered and destroyed.
        Quote: Novel 11
        What about lace and other wars for you, for example, tell Yalu here?

        No need :)))) Roman, you are making 4 mistakes in each word in the description of the battle of Shantung, where do you want Yala? :))))
        Quote: Novel 11
        then Novikov painted this connoisseur in a famous novel and I don’t think that he was mistaken, because ZPR was obviously embarrassed to appear in Russia without a fleet

        Roman, are you out of your mind? What nonsense are you talking about? You do not know that after the captivity, Rozhdestvensky REFUSED to sail in a roundabout way to Russia (which allowed him to come directly to St. Petersburg) and traveled across Russia, including rioting areas (strikes on the railway), openly risking his life, because no one could to know how the rebellious people will react to the admiral who loses to Tsushima?
        Quote: Novel 11
        Well, I understand that you didn’t even try to read about Tsushima, I recommend starting your acquaintance with the stage of preparing for Bedov’s surrender: as the commander saved his honor with knowledge, this is even worse than Nebogatov’s

        Enchanting nonsense. Have you ever read anything besides Novikov about Tsushima? :))))
        You are even unable to understand that Novikov was not at Bedovoy. And that everything written by him about Bedovoy is a fantasy of a battalion who spent the whole battle in the infirmary. And he has a million of such fantasies (for example, about the officers kneeling in the Suvorov’s wheelhouse. Almost no one escaped from the Suvorov — did Novikov tell the staff officers about this? :)))
        You reproach me for being a book man and I don’t understand anything in this life. I have a suggestion - let me smash you with a mount on my stomach (this is the shell shock that Shchensnovich received) and then you will command ... no, not an armadillo going to the enemy’s ram, but ... well, a motor boat , whether. And then let’s break the skull with the same mount so that the fragments go inside (Japanese doctors did not dare to remove them for 2 months, fearing the death of Rozhestvensky) and in this state you will save your honor and dignity by telling us how you about this mount the knee was broken and the crowd of gopniks who kept her dispersed. Confirm your thesis with a personal (and not a book) example, a barzo is simpler.
        Novikov in his military science fiction novel is lying, and he is lying all the time: this is a lie about the damp pyroxylin, which he, for the sake of persuasion, put into Krylov’s mouth (who never said anything like that and couldn’t say anything) and about the death sentences on the squadron (Rozhdestvensky not approved a single) and much more. But he even had an incentive, and you what?
        Quote: Novel 11
        you see a battle in one world that you see, this nonsense on this topic is full, people also, on the basis of some replicas of eyewitnesses, put it in a piggy bank, and like you, they are delirious that they know something, but in fact you compose such nonsense

        Of course, only you alone, having read off Novikov, see the Absolute Truth. After the third bottle.
        1. 0
          15 July 2017 12: 03
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Novel, sources must be read for two reasons. Firstly, in order not to smack nonsense in the comments (it hurts!), And secondly, to avoid the epic landing in a puddle that just happened to you. Roman, I’m ready to pay you 500 bucks for a book that sets out the history of the REV as I do :))))) And if you read the sources, you would know that.

          What a puddle? Uh What sources are you talking about? Description of the historical commission of the fleet in Russian-Japanese? Meiji? Maybe Kravchenko - Through three Oceans or the same Kostenko - On the Eagle in Tsushima? Even you refer to the sources as “ornate”, I remember a couple of years ago in the discussion you argued that Kostenko messed up Orel there with overweight, something suspicious calculations ... .. this is an individual right, of course, which ones to trust and which ones to reject because of antipathies . But there are also reinforced concrete ones on faith, which, if you don’t check, are impeccable, and if under a microscope, it’s exactly the opposite - Zapruder’s film is evidence of that ... .. so your sources of mud are solid. But you read, read as much as possible, there are so many more white spots, not a single Lenin library will fit in their boundless shores. There are specially trained agile guys who exist in this world specifically for people like you, they can write a lot, they have hypotheses for a single life.
          It would be better to express my opinion more modestly on specific questions, because I didn’t ask about the sources, if they were amiss, because not your brains alone, but the usual questions .... You can say everyday, with a soul. And then boil on the site, a kind of super-expert in the country I don’t know, I know everything, I know everything, I understand everything that you know nothing, because I read sources, but you didn’t read, because only I could read them .... But in reality, all your sources are fiction, like the Zapruder film, that is, visually they are, but the essence is turned around 180 degrees there. But on the film, the experts proved that the picture is diverging from the truth, but according to the sources it’s so convenient, no one can change or test anything ... .. well, he counted the Englishman there less or more hits, maybe he was drunk, or maybe the Japanese treated the rum to more accurately described )) and then some fanatic in 100 years will reread with awe or learn by heart in ecstasy of insight into the truth.
          And for the 500th bucks, since you are such an altruist, list in an orphanage, I assure you, in this difficult time, there are a lot of strong people who need support. Children will be grateful to you.

          Roman, as a psychologist, you are even more mediocre than as a historian, although here it is extremely difficult to surpass you. Of course, I am far from telling you my biography, but you are communicating with a very successful top manager, a happy family man and father of three children. And yes, in spite of all this, I still find time to read sources on topics that interest me :)))


          Here is a splinter in you, or is it really so ... The first time I meet, you are sorry, nothing so personal, but you really are looking for some hidden meaning or a catch in some issues, maybe they really say that our mind is a generator of evil? Not related to psychology, why do I need a shortcut? Is it not possible to ask a little wider than the naval theme? As for the rest of the answer, I am happy for you and I will try in the future to do nothing of the sort, otherwise suspect hypnosis or some other heresy.

          Roman, if nobody knows this, then what are you lying on your blue eye about Jessen "fluttering like a butterfly"? You do not read the sources, but claim that no one knows (!) Nevertheless assure me that Jessen was constantly changing course? (!!!) How do you know this? Have you received divine revelation after the third bottle?

          This is your perception, it is more likely a matter of print communication, hence there may still be such discrepancies, sometimes a comma smears logic, it is not always possible to prescribe intonation, etc., sound communication is easier.
          Nobody knows about the exact amount, no need to make noise. The fact that you blurted out 10 turns is about nothing ... Jessen himself in the battle was guided more by impulses, self-preservation instincts. Nobody, by itself, will not be considered in such a web, ... ... will get together.
          1. 0
            15 July 2017 12: 08
            Math is silent and looks at you reproachfully. In your opinion, a course change up to 180 degrees occurs in a second?
            4 hours 15 minutes the battle went = 255 minutes, 10 changes of course — one change of 25,5 minutes, counting 5,5 minutes per turn (which is a lot), we have at least 20 minutes without maneuvering in the same course after EVERY turn.

            For God's sake, they believed, why should I convince you then? I wondered about 4,5 hours under the battle, i.e. 15 minutes more ... and why did you decide what exactly 13-14 of my calculated? Or 10 stretched for the whole battle?
            And why is it exactly 4,15 minutes?
            Waterloo often starts at 11.35, according to the generally accepted opinion, because Wellington's headquarters general took a watch from his pocket with the first shot of a French gun and noted the time. But then there were other memories, and 11.20, and some of the French even claimed that the battle began in the first hour. However, this does not mean that someone deviating from the generally accepted principle does not “know” or “read” about the battle? The same goes for the soldiers, they drag the whole burden on the hump, but it is unlikely that they will argue that the staff did not participate in the battle, just because they didn’t engage in hand-to-hand combat with the enemies, but rode around the rear, delivering orders, or doing other work? This is probably wild for you, because if you think that if you know something, then by all means, you know, I don’t agree ... ... when you see an approaching tornado, you don’t need to know how many points it is, 9.9 or 10! This is stupid, right? And to read about hurricanes of this category is not necessary hundreds of books in order to know their general meaning and consider yourself a super-synoptic or someone else. You are trying to measure something there, 4.15, 4.22. What for? What kind of freak, or unloading from work? Maybe the second?
            It is enough to know according to general data - the battle was long, more than 4 hours, the Russian detachment very often changed course, that's all .... And then ZPR was obliged then to meet with Jessen and torture for a week without a hitch how was the matter ... .. Now take a look at a fragment of these arts:



            I remind you that, generally speaking, I gave you an example of the stability of Russia and Gromoboy in response to your stories about how the cruisers Kamimura sank Oslyabya
            .
            Et why tales? Sources are not the bible. In your opinion, after the reversal, how many Japanese sent more than 10 shells? ” Well, let 6 units make a volley, then transfer the fire to Suvorov = 24 shells. How much could this six shoot time and when fell on board Oslyabya? In any case, the contribution of the armored cruisers is decisive, they prevented from resisting the flow of water, even if larger shells hit the underwater part.

            Those. Do you believe that by 1906, Russian EDBs mysteriously increased their range by a factor of one and a half? By pike command, at your request?

            No, by 1906 it was possible to prepare well. I didn’t have to run headlong because of the ill-considered and, according to the ZPR, who had influenced the premature exit of contracts with German coal miners.
            There were already successful acceptance of coal on the go at Retvisan, there were opportunities to ponder the route, it was not difficult to increase the number of floating rear. It was quite possible to organize a simulation of a breakthrough, but actually capture the Pescadors as a base base, pre-grabbing more mines and a few paratroopers. And do not miss that until 1906 we have light forces, experience will be. In addition, Laperuz will by that time become less secretive, but we are aware that Sakhalin fell after Tsushima. Now it’s hard for me to say what it was possible to stop the choice, for this you need to know how much and what? Otherwise, fortune-telling is like with a ZPR campaign, when he clung to shabby foundations - for example, to catch it before the fall of Arthur ... .. he was lucky, but if the latest EDB had died out in a storm in Madagascar?
            1. 0
              15 July 2017 12: 15
              Have you ever talked with one about this topic? :)))) Or again a divine revelation? :)


              Those who want to count on a longer continuation will choose a less risky path.
              And why did you decide that after Laperouse you can’t bunker? Sources?
              You just need to dwell on one thing and consider in detail, there are many variations for Laperuz, weather conditions are more complicated there, fogs. There are parking places from the Kuril Islands to the Komandorsky, Petropavlovsk right there - it's all in case of clear weather, and just a waiting place, respite. There were cases when the Japanese arrested English merchants for trying to transport coal to Vladik, but it is much easier to deliver fuel to the North .... The bays for coal depots can be settled with foreigners, of course it will become known to Togo and when our squadron first appears, he will find that we have gone to these points, but then we need to boldly go through Tsusimsky, with the calculation of access to the approaches to Vladik in the night so that the battle is fleeting. Our task is to slip through Tsushima in the morning, leaving a minimum of light for the next day, under the inevitable battle. And there the wok and destroyers will arrive in time and minefields with submarines are close.
              But then again, if intelligence by destroyers determines the presence of Japanese in the North!

              Togo was planning a throw to the Laperouse Strait. At the same time, in anticipation of the Russians in the strait, he was going to place the main forces at Tsugaru.


              Who cares? He acted on the inner triangle Tsushima - Vladik – Tsugaru .... After discovering ours in Laperuse or at the entrance / exit, it was necessary to calculate where to intercept with the calculation of the full daylight hours for the battle. If he rushes from Tsugaru to meet, he will cross with us in the evening or even in the dark, in case of our discovery in the morning. Here he does not make sense to rush around, he just needs 2 answers South or North and at what time of the day they are found. Moreover, Tsushima is one thing, but Vladik’s completely different ... .. Although his decision to give the battle as far as possible from the fortress is obvious, but, I repeat, the difference in the night is too likely for him, and therefore not profitable, in addition, he spends much more more valuable than Tsushima’s fuel, and Fuji’s slow-moving boat will probably be out of work if the courses are not kept …… .. so there are more disadvantages from running to Laperuz. And then, despite the fact that ours will not change course for DELIVERY, and this can be done off our coast, especially in the wind, 2-3 hours before dark and early in the morning. At least one additional load after Laperuz is required, I think it is reasonable to carry out it in the evening after leaving the strait and further, based on the weather for about 2 hours with the onset of dawn, if the patrol confirms cleanliness on the horizon and is understandable on the radio, because when the Japanese are close and the first contacts An intensive radio exchange of their intelligence with the main forces will follow.

              Absolutely illiterate lies from the first to the last word. Materiel with maneuvering schemes here


              Lies? I forgot that the commander wasn’t wounded, but was shell-shocked by a fragment, but that doesn’t change anything, because was the reason for the hitch and the missed time of the battering ram ... .. the rest of your imagination draws some terrible details, based on the reason of the same commission (one source), but besides it you still selectly come up - the commander of Caesar could have lied ... ... allow, and why suddenly others could not embellish the report for the commission? And why suddenly Retvisan in 15-17 cables turned, and not 20-25? You have his route there, but that doesn’t mean that it was exactly like that? And you didn’t notice that of Retvisan .... ?, but because of the smoke you couldn’t see it. ) Where did the flagship of the blind-eyed admiral shoot at these moments 2 12 "?

              What "one fog"? :)))))) Do you know the speed of the Russian squadron? And the length of the strait? Those. if you mean "one fog per week" - then yes, you're right :)))))

              The speed is 8-9, fogs for those latitudes are more frequent and longer than in the south of Korea, and taking into account the appearance in the evening before the strait, you can slip through. By the way, the patrols in those places were not very saturated, the wok's campaign in front of Tsushima revealed the presence of several schooners near Tsugaru. ZPR and here did not catch the moment when it was worth organizing a connection with the actions of the ships of the base, especially reconnaissance destroyers. Was it impossible to check the presence of the Japanese before the breakthrough from the north? I think it is possible, and long before him.

              Roman, do you even know what reasons Rozhestvensky did? :))) No? And why am I not surprised :)))
              I give you a hint - this decision of Rozhestvensky was ABSOLUTELY LOGIC and directly followed from the analysis of the experience of battles of the Russian-Japanese war. True, in the end, it turned out to be erroneous.


              Well, again! ZPR is adequate, ZPR is logical, and what is lost is not to blame .... It happened so. You have a direct spiritual connection with ZPR, you catch his every thought. It’s all gray that can “wrongly” suffer defeats in grandiose battles, but ZPR is a different matter, it makes mistakes exclusively intellectual)))), outstanding, well, just the genius of defeats. No, in fact, no offense - Andrei, let me now call you Tsushima? I apologize, you probably shoveled the mountains of waste paper in this area, and really bow and respect for your meticulous work on the site. But let me ask a question - why do you whitewash the black raven Tsushima ?, you know that from and before it was an adventure.
              1. 0
                15 July 2017 12: 25
                You are not even able to understand that night follows morning and Christmas Eve in the morning


                Well, where do we understand? You and your Zealous are only capable of this, the results are still impressive ....

                No need :)))) Roman, you are making 4 mistakes in each word in the description of the battle of Shantung, where do you want Yala? :))))


                Damn, 2nd grade, found something to complain about .... Not serious for the connoisseur (((.
                He always called him that, with a Russian accent.

                Roman, are you out of your mind? What nonsense are you talking about? You do not know that after the captivity, Rozhdestvensky REFUSED to sail in a roundabout way to Russia (which allowed him to come directly to St. Petersburg) and traveled across Russia, including rioting areas (strikes on the railway), openly risking his life, because no one could to know how the rebellious people will react to the admiral who loses to Tsushima?


                Yes, yes, in his. However, you used the word AFTER there. And Novikov described in time. And then, in the topic about Shatung, you do not trust Ivanov, that way the Japanese shell affected the memory. And what, after the cure, Rozhestvensky could not simply "drive"? He then asked for execution in court. And there, importantly, he argued that his actions from the moment of transfer to the destroyer would be considered adequate, i.e. after the wound, he already returned to himself and gave an account of what was happening, but certainly not 100%.
                So what is your interpretation of the scene of the departure of Grozny and the remaining Bedovoy, with white rags ... ..hat he has exhausted his combat effectiveness?

                Enchanting nonsense. Have you ever read anything besides Novikov about Tsushima? :))))
                You are even unable to understand that Novikov was not at Bedovoy. And that everything written by him about Bedovoy is a fantasy of a battalion who spent the whole battle in the infirmary.


                I admit, Novikov, from the point of view of truth, is not a prophet, well, again, he himself laid out in detail all the rehearsals of his own, without the irony of an ingenious creation and his attitude to him more, not as documents or memoirs, but as a novel - a literary, artistic work. He invented something, for example, the collective image of the stoker Baklanov, emnip. He conveyed much from the words of others, so Borodino's illustration is a photocopy of the only sailor who survived.

                And he has a million of such fantasies (for example, about officers kneeling in the Suvorov cabin. Almost no one escaped from Suvorov — did Novikov tell the headquarters about this? :)))

                Kneeling is possible and fiction, especially officers .... And as for those who survived from Suvorov, I don’t remember exactly now, but like Semenov voiced something about a dozen, headquarters + - maybe more .... I’m not sure that he accurately recorded - he himself was wounded, I admit that the rank and file were also clerks, messengers or mountaineers there, in general, it is possible.

                I have a suggestion - let me smash you with a mount on my stomach (this is the shell shock that Shchensnovich received) and then you will command ... no, not an armadillo going to the enemy’s ram, but ... well, a motor boat , whether. And then let’s break the skull with the same mount so that the fragments go inside (the Japanese doctors did not dare to remove them for 2 months, fearing the death of Rozhestvensky) and in this state you will save your honor and dignity by telling us how you about this mount the knee was broken and the crowd of gopniks who kept her dispersed. Confirm your thesis with a personal (and not a book) example, a barzo is simpler.


                It can be seen that Tsushima poked you well, just rush at me with mounts ... ..
                Do you propose to become a kamikaze? On a motor boat? )))) Great idea!! Somehow I do not want to. Can anyone else? )))) Do you agree? Together we will be more fun, the main thing is more explosives. wink

                Of course, only you alone, having read off Novikov, see the Absolute Truth. After the third bottle.


                And with the bottles you part. negative
  17. 0
    20 September 2017 19: 10
    interesting armadillo the Japanese failed
    1. 0
      April 6 2018 15: 05
      And what kind of publication do you have?
      The ship in the bottom photo is not even remotely similar to the Suvorov)))
      1. 0
        April 6 2018 23: 32
        The path to Tsushima Konstantin Sarkisov Aurora publishing house.
        1. +1
          April 7 2018 18: 27
          Found a funny post dedicated to your illustration.
          https://vanchez.livejournal.com/71642.html
          lol
          1. 0
            April 7 2018 19: 04
            laughing unfortunately transmitted over the Internet, but if the editor is a woman, it still explains something.
  18. +1
    3 February 2018 12: 39
    Good article, balanced, impartial. At first, the author cited sources and often provides extracts from them, makes it possible to evaluate them himself and draw conclusions.
    Some authors tend to aggressively impose their opinions, use only those or only those fragments of sources that may be in favor of this very opinion. And such authors are probably the majority.
    I would like to hope to see more articles by respected Ivan Loginov.