Same age German "Mauser": Russian rifle 1891 of the year. Questions and answers. Chapter two

49
Chapter Two

Why was the “3 linear rifle of the 1891 model of the year” not used without a bayonet?



As a matter of fact, the chapter one could be stopped. But having learned why the three-lane was shot with a bayonet, we received a second question - why it was not envisaged to use a rifle without a bayonet. Therefore, we will not stop and refer to the 1884 “Instructions for Shooting Training”. It was valid until the “Manual ...” 1897 of the year we reviewed.

Same age German "Mauser": Russian rifle 1891 of the year. Questions and answers. Chapter two

The Shooting Training Instruction 1884 of the Year.


Open the 170 page of the specified manual. And what we see there.


But what is written there about the influence of the bayonet on the flight of a bullet.

What kind of rifle was in service with the Russian Empire in the 1884 year? In 1884, the Russian Imperial Army was armed with the “Berdan No. 2 small-caliber rifle”. It turns out that the "rifle" had to be shot exclusively with a bayonet. As you can see, in the "Manual ..." 1884 of the year there is another indication.


This is a photo of the test rifle Berdan №2. 1870 year. Experienced by her captain Gunius (standing) and Colonel Gorlov. Pay attention - a rifle with a bayonet. That is, Berdan’s rifle was originally intended to be used only with a bayonet.

But with the rifle Berdan №1 turned out somewhat more difficult. This is the first Russian rifle, which was originally designed as a breech-loading. This rifle was designed in the United States and shot without a bayonet.

But the very first tests in Russia put everything in its place. The rifle was tested, naturally, with a bayonet. Gorlov, at his discretion, chose a triangular bayonet for the rifle. But the triangular bayonet of the old design, created even for muzzle loading weapons, could not withstand the loads created by new ammunition. After that, a new, more durable tetrahedral bayonet was designed and everything fell into place. Because rifle Berdan №2, adopted in the 1870 year, has already received a new bayonet - four-sided. He, virtually unchanged, got and "3x-linear rifle sample 1891 of the year."

And how was it even earlier, before Berdan’s rifle No.2?

Before the rifle of Berdan # XXUMX in Russia, it was what military minister Dmitry Alekseevich Milyutin called "our unfortunate rifle drama."

The fact is that, thanks to the rapid development of science and technology in the second half of the 18th and the first quarter of the 19th century, the gun — the main armament of the infantryman and cavalryman — which had not changed at all for several generations, suddenly began to develop at a very rapid pace. And those who did not want to find themselves in the position of catching up had to develop, adopt and launch completely new constructions with no less speed.

And the Russian Empire during this period had a hard time. As Milutin said: "... the equipment went forward with such quick steps that before the proposed orders were tested, new requirements appeared and new orders were made."

From 1859 to 1866, the Armory Commission (previously the Committee for the Improvement of Fittings and Guns) tested more than 130 foreign and at least 20 domestic systems.

As a result, they adopted the Terry-Norman quick-fire capsule rifle reworked with the 1856 rifle of the year and were removed from service as obsolete in less than a year.

She was replaced by the Carle rifle - with the same success. And finally, in 1869, the main armament of the army was the Krnka rifle, and on navy took the Baranov rifle (it was released a little - about 10 copies). The following document speaks well about how difficult it was for an army with so many systems during the Russian-Turkish war of 000-1877.


This is a famous report by General N.P. Potocki in the Imperial Russian Technical Society.

But in all of this at the moment we are interested in the question - and how were all these weapons models shot? And they shot with a bayonet. So, like the previous samples. Because without a bayonet infantry rifles are not used. And not only infantry.


This is the Order of the Manager of the Maritime Ministry of 21 July 1870 of the year. This order determines the order of supplying the ship's commands with small arms. Attached to it is the "Instruction for learning to fire at a target with guns and pistols."

At this era of breech-rifled rifle we have exhausted. And what about a muzzle-loading, smooth-bore weapon?

Of course, we can’t talk about zeroing, as we understand it now, it’s impossible to use flint and shock-rifle guns. But after all, soldiers were trained in shooting. So there must be documents that regulate this training. Such documents are. For example, the “Instruction on shooting at the target” 1848 of the year. At this time, the Russian army is present as outdated 1808, 1826, 1828, 1839, and silicon infantry infantry models, as well as capsules of the 1845 model of the year, converted from flint, 1828 and 1839 samples.

I will say right away that in this “Instruction ...” there is no paragraph about the need to conduct training with a bayonet. But in it there is a paragraph in which the device of an aiming device for training soldiers in aiming is very detailed. This is the above device with a gun fixed on it. And the gun - with a bayonet.

Now we will summarize our research. The results are as follows.

The use of rifles without fail with a fixed bayonet in the Russian army was military-doctrinal in nature. The fact is that in the overwhelming majority of European armies, bagnets from the moment of their appearance were used mainly as defensive weapons.

In the Russian army, starting with Peter I’s “Short Ordinary Doctrine,” it was recommended to use a bayonet in the offensive actions of the troops.


In 1716, the “Military Charter” was introduced. A significant place in it was also given to the training of soldiers for bayonet fighting.

In addition, the statute stated that for any shooting, everyone must necessarily adjoin the bayonets, since after it they will certainly go to the enemy with bayonets. That is why the three-sided bayonet lasted for so long in service with the Russian army. Although the bayonet must be constantly attached, but at the same time it made it possible to load the gun safely for the shooter. These requirements are suitable only for a three-edged bayonet, which has a long neck, diverting the bayonet wedge from the muzzle to a distance that is safe for the hand when loading. In this case, the face turned to the muzzle cut should not be sharp. These requirements are well satisfied with a triangular bayonet with a flat face facing the muzzle.

Thus, the foundation of tactics was laid. And A.V. brought her to perfection. Suvorov. He, following the path already planned in the Russian army by Peter I, found a solution to the problem that turned out to be insoluble for the military art of Western Europe of his time. At first glance, the essence of his transformations in tactics was very simple, but their significance was enormous.

First of all, Suvorov understood more clearly than any of his contemporaries that the composition of the Russian army and the qualities of a Russian soldier make it possible to educate in the army the properties necessary for the most decisive form of combat for combat with melee weapons. Suvorov found further the necessary methods of educating and training troops in the indicated direction. And finally, Suvorov found the right way to use infantry trained and trained in his spirit in combat, the essence of which was that the bayonet strike was put in the forefront as the decisive act of combat.

Instead of a fire contest with a very slow, not brought, as a rule, to the impact of rapprochement, which resulted in an attack on the methods of Western European tactics, Suvorov's infantry, after a short fire training, began a non-stop forward movement, which ended necessarily with a throwing bayonets. The fire had to partly upset and demoralize the enemy, disorganize its fire and reduce its effectiveness. In addition, the smoke from the shots served as a kind of disguise for the attacker. When attacking without fire preparation, the defender, shooting more calmly, had a chance to inflict heavy casualties on the attacker, or even easily repulse the attack.

At this point, the commander’s famous phrase comes up in the memory of many: “The bullet is a fool, the bayonet is good!” I’ll dwell on it in more detail, since recently these words are sometimes used to illustrate the backwardness of the Russian army.

In the original, the words of A.V. Suvorov in “Science to win” sounds like this: “Take care of a bullet for three days, and sometimes for a whole campaign, as there is nowhere to take. Shoot rarely, aptly; Bayonet if firmly. The bullet will obmishulitsya, the bayonet will not obmishulitsya: bullet - a fool, a bayonet - well done. This fragment as a whole completely changes the understanding of the phrase that is usually illiterately snatched from the works of the commander. The commander only calls to take care of the ammunition and shoot accurately and emphasizes the importance of the ability to work with a bayonet. The era of muzzle-loading weapons made it necessary to try to shoot accurately, the importance of accurate shooting was underestimated. But - let us emphasize once again - the fire of the infantry in Suvorov played the role only of preparing the strike. Perhaps most clearly, this is stated in the order of 1794 g .: "A step backward is death, all shooting ends with bayonets."

Thus, Suvorov, without abandoning the rational use of all the properties of weapons, decisively broke with the overestimation of the gunfire that prevailed at that time.

In the future, despite changes in the tactics of the troops and armament, he did not surrender the bayonet positions in the Russian army. On the contrary, bayonet fighting along with gymnastics is becoming increasingly important in the individual training of soldiers.

The Rules for learning to use the bayonet and butt in combat, published in 1857, emphasized that the leaders of the classroom should focus on the individual training of each warrior. For training in bayonet combat, layouts of rifles with a “soft and pliable tip”, masks, breastplates and gloves were provided. All techniques, ultimately, worked out in full gear. At the final stage of training, it was necessary to conduct free-to-face fighting, but the methods of fighting with the butt were also set forth; in addition, there were instructions on the tactics of actions in hand-to-hand fighting with several opponents or with fighters armed with various weapons.


In 1861, new “Rules for the use of the bayonet in battle” were published, consisting of four parts, which provided for daily training sessions on bayonet fighting.


"Rules for the use of the bayonet in battle"

In 1881, new “Rules for learning to use in combat bayonet” were released, which have been in use for over 25 years. And only in 1907, it was replaced by the new “Training for bayonet fighting”.

Here you can ask the question that if the presence of a constantly sided bayonet for weapons of the 18th and 19th centuries can be explained, then how can this be explained for a rifle that was already being developed on the threshold of the 20th century.

An explanation of this can be found in the book, which served for many years as a desk for many military leaders of Russia. This is “Tactics Tutorial” written by General M.I. Dragomirovym in 1879 year. M.I. Dragomirov is the largest military theorist of the Russian Empire of the 2 half of the XIX century. His practical and scientific journalistic activities had a huge impact on all aspects of military activities, but, unfortunately, not always positive.

He expressed his vision of the development of firearms as follows: “... the bullet and the bayonet do not exclude each other, but complement each other: the first paves the way for the second. This relationship between them will always remain, no matter how far the improvement of firearms goes. ”

Authoritative sermon M.I. Dragomirova was vividly reflected in the 1904 Field Regulations and in other statutes of that time and had a considerable negative effect on the armament of the Russian army and its supply with modern technical means of combat. For example, even in the last Field Service Charter, approved in 1912, Suvorov’s “Teach a Soldier Before a Battle” survived, in which there were such “guidelines”: “He beats in battle, who is harder and bolder, and not who is stronger and more skillful” ; "Climb forward, even the front and beat"; "Do not be afraid of death"; “An enemy can be beaten either with a bayonet or with fire; of two, the choice is not difficult”; “If the enemy is close, always bayonets; if far away, first fire, and then bayonets. ”

It can not be said that the Russian army did not realize the archaic nature of the constantly attached bayonet.

Thus, the Minister of War DA Milyutin, in his diary in 1874, wrote: “the issue of replacing bayonets with hexes was again excited ... following the example of the Prussians. Three times this issue has already been discussed by persons competent: everyone unanimously gave an advantage to our bayonets and refuted the sovereign's assumptions that the bayonets adjoined the guns only at the time when the need arises to act with cold arms. And despite all the previous reports in this sense, the question is raised again for the fourth time. ”

At the beginning of the 20th century, there were two parties in the military circles of the Russian Empire. Some recognized the "bayonet" - a sign of courage, spirit, courage - and argued that, whatever the perfection of technology and the power of fire, the main thing in the war will be a man, that what matters is not a weapon, but a man with his determination, and that as a representative of this quality is the bayonet, the Suvorov aphorism “bullet is a fool, the bayonet is good,” is eternal. Others, passionate about the power of modern fire, gave an exaggerated importance to technology, denied the "bayonet", and with it the Suvorov aphorism.

M.I. Dragomirov dubbed the first "bayonets", the second - "fire worshipers." The first, led by Dragomirov himself, remained victorious.

Continuing altercations of “bayonets” and “fire worshipers” led to a vagueness of understanding the issues of “bullet” (matter) and “bayonet” (spirit), to false conclusions of the theory and, consequently, to the wrong preparation of the matter for war, to excessive enthusiasm for the moral side of preparation troops to fight to the detriment of military equipment.

As you can see, at the time of the creation of the trilinear, the bayonet positions were unshakable. They remained unshakable, by the way, until the trilinear was removed from service. Therefore, the use of 7,62-mm rifle system Mosin arr. 1891 / 30 without a bayonet also not provided.

The workers 'and peasants' Red Army not only borrowed the method of using the bayonet from the charters of the tsarist army, it introduced various improvements in it, including taking into account the experience of foreign armies.

But at the beginning of the 1930-s, Malinovsky, head of the Red Army Directorate Directorate of the Red Army, wrote: “The experience of the war says that the bayonet fighting, and in any case readiness for it, is still very often the decisive element of the attack. The same experience testifies to the significance of casualties in hand-to-hand combat, both because of the attack of the bayonet and because of the inability to use the bayonet. ” Therefore, it is not surprising that the RKKA Infantry Battle Regulations taught the fighters: “The ultimate infantry combat mission in an offensive battle is to smash the enemy in melee. Every attacker must choose a victim in the ranks of the enemy and kill her. No one who gets in the way should be left unattended, be it running, walking, standing, sitting or lying. ... Now there is no doubt that in many attacks, and in the night ones - surely, our opponents will seek victory in the bayonet strike, and therefore we must be able to withstand this blow with our more crushing blow. The experience of the war showed that many soldiers were killed or wounded only because of the inability to use their weapons properly, especially the bayonet. Bayonet combat is the decisive factor of any attack. He should be preceded by the last opportunity shooting. The bayonet is the main weapon of the night battle. ”


Unsurprisingly, the last pre-war “Manual on small-scale business” of the NSD-38 1938 of the year differs little from the “Manual for training in shooting” of the 1897 already reviewed by us.

And what about during World War II?


Battle Regulations infantry of the Red Army. 1942 year. Considered the experience of the first, most difficult year of the war.


And this is the number of the newspaper of the Academy of the Red Army. Mv Frunze from 19 May 1942 of the year.


An editorial from this newspaper. Add to it too much and nothing.

To be continued ...
49 comments
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  1. +6
    26 May 2017 15: 28
    Therefore, it is not surprising that the Red Army Combat Charter of infantry taught the soldiers: “The ultimate combat task of an infantry in an offensive battle is to defeat the enemy in hand-to-hand combat. Every attacker must choose a victim in the ranks of the enemy and kill her. Not a single person who gets in the way should be ignored, whether it is running, walking, standing, sitting or lying. ... Now there is no doubt that in many attacks, and in the night - surely, our opponents will seek victory in a bayonet strike, and therefore we must be able to withstand this strike with our more crushing blow


    How many fighters were killed in the Second World War from machine gun fire, guided by these archaic ideas about the tactics of modern combat ...

    What bayonet will you take the Crab armored machine-gun shelter?

    No bayonet, no small arms, no grenades - only a flamethrower or a direct hit by a shell.
    Hence the gravest losses.
    1. +14
      26 May 2017 15: 35
      What bayonet will you take the Crab armored machine-gun shelter?

      I threw a smoke grenade into the shelling sector ... and how much will you see from the embrasure ... then the cartridges ran out than you will fight ... with your fists? what
      Heavy losses are always on the conscience of the commander who did not prepare the fighter and did not organize the battle correctly.
      1. 0
        26 May 2017 22: 48
        Quote: The same LYOKHA
        Heavy losses are always on the conscience of the commander who did not prepare the fighter and did not organize the battle correctly.

        Conditions: You are a commander of the platoon, for two months, chasing personnel on the KMB, and since the bachelor didn’t let the platoon out of sight, you took first place in the result.
        And then suddenly a war. Your part is delivered to the database zone. Next ORDER
        I omit the dislocations and prehistory, but, say, from the division commander
        I command you to attack such a height on the front, such a regiment, and you and your platoon in this squad.
        Problem:
        Your actions what taking into account
        Heavy losses are always on the commander’s conscience who did not prepare the fighter and did not organize the battle correctly.

        Notes. The option to die heroically is not considered a solution. And the attack must be real.
        1. +4
          27 May 2017 08: 21
          Attack at night smile having previously ascertained the firing points of the enemy and having made passages in minefields or obstacles ...
          I will set a specific task and direction for each fighter ... and I’ll also explain to people how to act in the event of an operation failure ... these were the basics laid down by ALEXANDER SUVOROV.
          1. +1
            27 May 2017 09: 20
            Quote: The same LYOKHA
            I’ll attack at night smile after first finding out the enemy firing points and making passages in minefields or obstacles ...

            Lieutenant, what the hell minefields! World War I, after all. And by all means by day, as Their High Grace ordered, sir! Yes sir! A battery of three-guns on the enemy front will shoot, but, sorry, there are not enough shells. Well, with God, my dear, Christ is with you! For Faith, Tsar and Fatherland! crying
            Do not be afraid, they will follow, they say that for the wounded officer who was taken out of the battlefield, Egoria was given wink
          2. 0
            3 January 2018 07: 56
            Quote: The same LYOKHA
            Attacking at night after first finding out the enemy firing points and making passages in minefields or barriers ...


            I agree. and even better, when on your way a crab or a lot of crab goblin with them, the flank is your best friend. the deeper the bypass the more beautiful
  2. +2
    26 May 2017 15: 42
    The bayonet at that time was important, at that time there was no body armor, and in an open battle the bayonet was necessary ....
    1. +1
      26 May 2017 23: 07
      Quote: RanXackiRan
      and in open battle the bayonet was necessary ....

      Odd, it seems to me that on such a shorter knife in hand is more practical what For that matter, in attacking the officer the three-ruler in his hands, as well as the non-AKM what Well, it happened in the WWI, but in the end it’s a knife-bayonet, when all the cartridges ran out and the weather was completely non-flying request
      1. 0
        27 May 2017 19: 51
        Of course, if you take it that way, even pieces in your hands would be more effective ... but in this life it was ... crying
      2. 0
        1 June 2017 16: 04
        Quote: perepilka
        a knife in hand is more practical on such a cow

        This is apparently a civilian combined weapon. You will not carry a knife and a firearm with you. And in combination - no problem.
        Although, there were army weapons of the same type.



        Webley Mark 6.
  3. +5
    26 May 2017 16: 07
    Now here it is
    Rapid fire small caliber Berdan rifle number 2
    perceived with great irony ... Rapid Fire ???? - this is ONE-CHARGED, small-caliber ????? and it's about 10,75 mm ... Everything is known by comparison ...
    And the bayonet was vital when it took a lot of time to reload weapons. Now the ability to own it is certainly necessary, but more necessary is the ability to hit the enemy at maximum distances, with the least ammunition consumption.
    1. +2
      26 May 2017 18: 02
      Quote: svp67
      and it's about 10,75 mm ... Everything is known by comparison ...

      That's for sure, in comparison with Berdan No. 1 it was small-caliber.
      1. +1
        27 May 2017 11: 22
        You will be surprised, but Berdan’s rifle, after number one, fired the same cartridge as Berdan, after number two.
        1. +2
          27 May 2017 15: 52
          Quote: Grille
          Berdan’s rifle after number one, fired the same cartridge as Berdan after number two.

          Berdan No. 1 was a 4,5 line caliber (at least the one that Colonel Berdan originally did), and Berdan No. 2 was 4,2.
          1. 0
            27 May 2017 17: 12
            Berdan No. 1 was a 4,5 line caliber (at least the one that Colonel Berdan originally did)

            The Spanish Berdan was the 45th caliber.
            But the Russian rifle of Berdan differed in many ways precisely to the cartridge:

            So do not carry utter nonsense. It is heavy and does not smell good ... before answering, read at least Markevich.
            1. +2
              27 May 2017 17: 20
              Quote: Grille
              The Spanish Berdan was the 45th caliber.

              Its what the Spaniards developed? Berdan developed it and it was under the .45 caliber, that is 11,43 mm. Which is clearly more than Russian 10,6, namely 4,2 lines. What is the problem? request
              Quote: Grille
              So do not carry utter nonsense. It is heavy and smells not good ..

              Do not try to look smarter than you really are. Yes
              1. 0
                28 May 2017 14: 13
                Its what the Spaniards developed? It was developed by Berdan and specifically for the .45 caliber,

                So what? But the Russian berdan was developed under the 4,2 linear cartridge. And initially very structurally very different from the Spanish. What is the problem?
                Do not try to look smarter than you really are. yes

                Well, you definitely have no chance.
    2. 0
      27 May 2017 11: 25
      perceived with great irony ... Rapid Fire ???? is about ONE-CHARGED,

      You will laugh, but yes. Compared to the same Krk rifle, she possessed a half times faster rate of fire.
  4. +2
    26 May 2017 16: 14
    Some of our comrades are eager to cling to the "backwardness of the tsarist regime", and the Red Army Charter copies one by one the instructions of tsarist Russia.
    In his youth he met an old man and he grumbled: how much time before the war they spent on training in bayonet fighting, but in the Second World War it turned out to be absolutely unnecessary.
    P
    S
    Dragomirov is known for training soldiers according to his own charters
    1. +4
      26 May 2017 17: 00
      Quote: Monarchist
      how much time before the war they spent on training in bayonet fighting, but in the Second World War it turned out to be absolutely unnecessary.
      P

      Yes, actually, the “old man” is absolutely right. Bayonet attacks during the Second World War were extremely rare. The Germans acted stereotypically: brutal bombing, shelling, then a tank attack with motorized infantry. In the case of strong fire resistance, rollback and new art preparation and bombing. And so on until the bloodlessness of the resilient. Pockets of stubborn resistance circumvented and surrounded. By 1942, ours, too, did not run with a bayonet to the advantage in fortified positions, shouting cheers. Used the same tactics. And then, already in 1943, tank armies were launched. What kind of bayonet attack is it?
      1. +1
        26 May 2017 18: 03
        Very normal. The psychological aspect is not taken into account. It’s very scary when a crowd of evil Russians with spears runs at you, and from the cold store there is at best a knife and a shovel. In such an environment, it’s often not only that the machine gun stops firing, but even the fail-safe Mauser 98 misfires misfire.
        1. PPD
          +5
          26 May 2017 21: 11
          A new word in weapons business!
          The misfire turns out to be from fear !! ??? wassat
          Quote: MooH
          when a crowd of vicious Russians with spears is running at you, but there’s a ....

          in this case, the machine gun helps, and the veterans after such attacks remember - after one battle from the platoon there were 6, after another from the company 3.
          Yelninskaya and Rzhev-Sychiv operations as a good example.
          1. 0
            26 May 2017 22: 09
            Quote: PPD
            A new word in weapons business!
            The misfire turns out to be from fear !! ???

            Yes, just spit. With fear, not only misfires happen (for example, on the “most reliable AK in the world” they manage to accompany the bolt frame on the back stroke), but also throw grenades, forgetting to pull out the ring.

            Quote: PPD
            in this case, the machine gun helps

            And on their own and on someone else's machine gun? Also a way out. No pity? Although the women still give birth ...
            1. PPD
              0
              27 May 2017 10: 26
              Knock it off your head for a healthy one. Counter attack was not considered.
              At the memories of veterans, I look you do not care.
              The main thing is I.
              However, if a misfire of feelings occurs, they say in this case it is better not to smile. Like YES YES. Frightened misfire occurred. fool
              1. 0
                27 May 2017 13: 29
                Quote: PPD
                Knock it off your head for a healthy one. Counter attack was not considered.

                Why not considered ???
                We are now discussing hand-to-hand combat and a bayonet on a rifle. Everything is under consideration. And battles in settlements, and passage through trench lines, and forest, and ravines
                1. PPD
                  0
                  29 May 2017 08: 41
                  As practice has shown during battles in the conditions described by you, PPSh, as they say now, taxis. And another addition about the sighting.
                  For some reason, even a respected author in the description began with Suvorov. But after all, 100 years before Mosinki practically. those. thinking practically has not changed. The main bayonet, and shooting is nonsense. negative And if you look at things more broadly? Shooting point-blank before hitting with a bayonet requires such an accurate shooting, yeah, without it, a bullet with a bayonet at 3 meters goes almost 90 grams to the left. There is no need to shoot with a bayonet. To attach a bayonet is a thing that does not require a couple of hours, and deviation does not play a significant role.
  5. +1
    26 May 2017 17: 34
    There was no magazine rifle in close combat, so a bayonet was necessary. Well, since there was training in bayonet fighting, then psychological training was based on it. So everything is correct.
    1. +6
      26 May 2017 17: 50
      I support. Fencing + bayonet fighting are important and even necessary elements of psychological preparation. My wife's great-grandfather, before the revolution, taught fencing in Gatchina, studied in Warsaw. In 1918 he was nearly shot by the Reds at st. Povorino on the way home. One of their students saved - the red boss, who advised him to go away. I ran to Pishpek. During the war in Ashgabat, he taught bayonet fighting to cadets of the infantry school. He died during the famous earthquake. In Soviet times, fencing competitions in his memory were held in Ashgabat. I think that he made a significant contribution to the victory.
  6. +1
    26 May 2017 18: 56
    In the brochure "Rifle and its use" when disassembling and assembling indicated manipulations with a bayonet. It turns out in normal condition the rifle should be with an attached bayonet.
    https://yadi.sk/i/IFRNH7F83JZ92P
    1. +4
      26 May 2017 19: 08
      You read the first part of the article. Remember the last paragraph. “I think that the facts considered are quite enough to make the following conclusion. The infantry and dragoon rifles were shooting with a bayonet not because they cannot be shot without a bayonet, but because without a bayonet these rifles were simply not provided. In case of need for some reason, to use a rifle without a bayonet, it was just necessary to bring it to normal combat, but without a bayonet. By the way, the sniper version of the rifle was shot without a bayonet. "
      True, there is no link to your book, but to collect all the literature on the "three-line" is unrealistic. For bayonet manipulation, I have a link to this book.


  7. 0
    26 May 2017 19: 30
    But really it was impossible to think of re-shooting a rifle without a bayonet? Or shoot with the bayonet folded, not in a combat position.
    1. +6
      26 May 2017 19: 35
      If you have not read the first part, read at least the previous comment, it contains the last paragraph of the first article.
      "... the considered facts are quite enough to make the following conclusion. The infantry and dragoon rifles were shooting with a bayonet not because they cannot be shot without a bayonet, but because without a bayonet these rifles were simply not provided. If necessary, In some circumstances, to use a rifle without a bayonet, it was just necessary to bring it to normal combat, but without a bayonet. By the way, the sniper version of the rifle was shot without a bayonet. "
      1. 0
        27 May 2017 19: 59
        According to some laws of balistic with an attached bayonet, the mosquito has higher accuracy. The sniper version of the mosquito did not provide for a bayonet and, accordingly, was not equipped with a bayonet.
        1. +1
          27 May 2017 22: 22
          The bayonet does not affect the accuracy, only on the STP. Wait for the article to continue.
      2. 0
        28 May 2017 19: 46
        Quote: Curious
        If necessary, for some reason, use a rifle without a bayonet, it was just necessary to bring it to a normal battle, but without a bayonet.

        It seems that there were amendment tables. At least on the SCS. I could be wrong. He served a long time, and in the technical part. Shooting was not particularly given attention.
        Quote: iouris
        In Soviet times, fencing competitions in his memory were held in Ashgabat. I think that he made a significant contribution to the victory.

        Bright memory!
        Now few people know, but until the 60s the USSR championships in fencing on rifles were held.
        And, how our battalion commander "rotated" a carbine! Song! Only he stabbed, and already the butt flies to the head! He handed something to us.
  8. +6
    27 May 2017 00: 17
    To destroy all enemy infantry with artillery fire was unrealistic. It is also unlikely that getting stuck in the enemy’s head or running into the head of a parapet, is also unlikely to be fired from a store rifle in the enemy’s trench, most likely once if the shutter was turned over while running and foolishly didn’t let the whole store go before that. In close combat, reloading a three-ruler was most likely a dangerous waste of time - at that moment, it was just that you could get a bayonet under the rib, a shovel in the neck or a butt on the head. So without hand-to-hand combat in the offensive can not do.
    All the time, in such cases, I remember "On the Western Front Without Change," E.M. Remark There was one very interesting phrase: "Recently, we have become fashionable to go on the attack without a rifle - with grenades and a shovel." She very eloquently shows the effectiveness of fire from a rifle in the offensive and the role of knives. Even today, in the era of automatic weapons, no one in any army trained in hand-to-hand combat, although, of course, his role is now much lower.
    1. +4
      27 May 2017 15: 10


      Today is also relevant.
      1. 0
        28 May 2017 20: 22
        Quote: Silvio
        Today is also relevant.

        A hundred years ago?
        Quote: Dekabrev
        "Recently, we have become fashionable to go on the attack without a rifle - with grenades and a shovel"

        In the trench, in the room, understandable. And how against cavalry? No bayonet in any way.
        1. 0
          28 May 2017 21: 14
          Quote: There was a mammoth
          In the trench, in the room, understandable. And how against cavalry? No bayonet in any way.

          With the beginning of the mass use of machine guns, the importance of bayonet fighting decreased sharply. This Napoleon came out alive from the Berezina thanks to the bayonet strike of his guard. Against cavalry, the ability to shoot to defeat a moving target will be more effective. I think the bayonet was designed to be stabbed if the cartridges ran out - when it makes no sense to surrender, they tear to pieces. Then, in the SA, these weapons were PM for tankers and mechvods of combat vehicles. They didn’t teach to shoot from it, but to shoot themselves if it is not possible to get out of a burning car, just right.

          I heard that in the Israeli army they do not use a bayonet in close combat and they do not attach it to a rifle. After hitting a bayonet in the stomach, you still have to shoot to pull the bayonet back.
          1. +3
            28 May 2017 21: 25
            Quote: Silvio
            I think the bayonet was designed to be stabbed if the cartridges ran out

            Quote: Silvio
            They didn’t teach to shoot from it, but to shoot themselves if it is not possible to get out of a burning car, just right.

            And the signalmen had a wire, you can hang yourself .. So, right?
          2. 0
            28 May 2017 21: 28
            Quote: Silvio
            With the beginning of the mass use of machine guns, the importance of bayonet fighting decreased sharply.

            By itself. The value of hand-to-hand combat is now completely different, which was even in the Patriotic War. In Stalingrad, the father said, first of all, to throw a grenade, and then diagonally from a machine gun, not from a rifle. But, we are talking about weapons of the 1891 model. And the needle bayonet is somewhat different from the knife bayonet. Yes, and the cavalry is a very mobile species. It is fast approaching.
            Quote: Silvio
            I think the bayonet was designed to stab them

            belay Tea, we are not Japanese.
  9. +6
    27 May 2017 05: 28
    This is a photo of the test rifle Berdan №2. 1870 year. Experienced by her captain Gunius (standing) and Colonel Gorlov. Pay attention - a rifle with a bayonet. That is, Berdan’s rifle was originally intended to be used only with a bayonet.

    Well, everything is fine, the article is excellent, but it would be better to leave the photo without a signature. The signature only misleads the reader ...
    There is no captain at all, but a non-commissioned officer of long service in full dress. Or a senior non-commissioned officer or sergeant major, judging by the width of the galun in pursuit. What non-commissioned non-commissioned officer, says non-commissioned officer galun on the collar. What an extra urgent corner chevron on the left sleeve. On the chest to the right of the 2 awards of the mark "For Accurate Shooting" of the 1 and 2 degrees. Introduced in 1879 year. So the photo was taken no earlier than this year ...
    I publish a photo for comparison and example ...
    1. +1
      27 May 2017 20: 17
      Dear Muscovite! The fact that you are interested in uniformology, I still remember from my articles about the Order of St. George, so your comment could not be left unanswered.
      Frankly, although I always try to verify the information, I did not do such an examination, since for me the main thing was - a rifle and a device for shooting it.
      I could not find out the authorship of the photograph. Two facts are not in doubt - it really is Berdan’s rifle No. 2 and A.G. Gorlov.


      The first photo is from the article, the second is from the collection of portraits of the Imperial Main Apartment.
      Photos K.I. I did not find Gunius separately, not very then, in such ranks were photographed.
      Photo and signature to it is available on almost all weapons sites, including the site of the Kalashnikov concern. So if he misled the reader, then by 30%.
      If anyone has information on this photo - I will be grateful.
      1. +1
        27 May 2017 20: 35
        Thank you .... Photo ,. exposed by you, I see for the first time. If my comment seemed too harsh to you, I humbly ask you to forgive me. Always happy to help, so that I know. Sincerely, Nikolai Ivanovich ...
        1. +2
          27 May 2017 20: 45
          No complaints, I myself am too emotional in the comments, but this applies solely to the issue of discussion. It’s just that your comments interested me, so I’ll try to find the "sources" of the photo, if there is one somewhere.
  10. 0
    28 May 2017 16: 20
    But did you know, lovers of anything interesting, that Mosin was engaged in the construction to buy his wife? And yet I bought for the whole premium.
  11. 0
    28 May 2017 17: 48
    1. To the question of the constant finding of the bayonet on the rifle.
    My grandfather told me that when they drove 1941 in the summer to the front and in the front line, when German air raids were forced to jump out of the cars, there were cases when soldiers were wounded when they stumbled upon the bayonets of other soldiers. After that, everyone was ordered to remove bayonets from rifles.
    2. Does anyone know, have anything changed in the statutes / manuals after adopting the carbine ob.1944 with a folding bayonet?
    1. 0
      29 May 2017 11: 52
      Quote: Slug_BDMP
      Does anyone know if something has changed in the charters / instructions after adopting the carbine rifle of 1944 with a folding bayonet?

      This is all right. I've completely forgotten whether there are any standards for AKM when shooting with a bayonet and without a bayonet. What amendments to aim to introduce?
    2. 0
      31 May 2017 20: 51
      In the stowed position, the bayonet was attached so that it was rather difficult to get injured.

      And so fastened in a fighting position.