Ukrainian engine for a Turkish tank

Igor Georgiev published Article "Will Ukraine help Turkey with tanks", which sets out new data regarding Turkish-Ukrainian cooperation in the field of tank building.

Once in Western sanctions after the coup attempt in July 2016, Turkey was unable to adopt the new main battle tank Altai developed by the local company Otokar, as the engine supplies to it were blocked. The Austrian company AVL List GmbH, which created the engine for the car, expressed a categorical refusal to fulfill the contract. In this regard, Ankara’s plans to start mass production in 2017 are completely disrupted. Earlier, the Turkish army was expected to purchase 1000 vehicles, each worth $ 5,5 million (and another 500 million from 2007 was spent on development), which were designed to replace outdated American and German tanks.

According to the author of the article, 4 experienced specimens have proven themselves well in testing. The maximum speed of the 60-ton machine with the German MTU Friedrichshafen engine reached 70 km / h. Tanks showed excellent maneuverability and maneuverability.

The author of the material believes that in the conditions of the boycott declared by the West, three potential partners - Russia, Ukraine, and China - can help overcome the problem that has arisen in Turkey. The solution to this problem is extremely important, given the complex geopolitical situation that has arisen at the borders of the state.

I. Georgiev believes that the level of interaction with Russia at this stage does not allow for a transition to close military cooperation. Especially, given the distant interests of the Russian Federation, which will not sacrifice key technology for the sake of current benefits. China, having concentrated various world technologies, organized its own production of tank engines, but their quality remains a weakness.

As a result, the current situation is pushing Ankara to work with Kiev. On March 14, during the visit of Prime Minister Vladimir Groisman to Ankara, the country issued a memorandum of understanding. As the Turkish media emphasizes, the agreement provides for the future use of the technologies of the Ukrainian tank engine 6ТD-3 for the finalization of the Altai tank.

After 2 of the week, Ukroboronprom Group of Companies published information on the supply plans of “Zavod im. Malysheva "(Kharkiv) 6TD-3 engines with 1500 horsepower for the new Turkish MBT.

As evidenced by the differences in the wording, the Turks want to get the production technology of engines for their own production, while Kiev wants to sell the engines of Turkey. Previously, due to similar disagreements, negotiations with Mitsubishi broke down and the signing of an agreement with the Austrians took a very long time because Ankara demanded the transfer of the right not only to production, but also to export.

Kiev, apparently, believes that it will be possible to repeat the scenario with Pakistan. Under the 1996 contract with this country, 320 T-80UD tanks were shipped to Islamabad. Given that the Russian gas turbine engines were able to replace them with Kharkov 6TD-2 (1200 hp, the predecessor of 6TD-3). After this transaction, given the absence in Pakistan of its own production of spare parts for them, Ukraine has constant additional income from servicing tanks. Moreover, the Kharkov 6TD series engines are supplied for their own Pakistani main Al-Khalid battle tanks, developed by Islamabad in cooperation with Beijing.

As the author of the article notes, the possibility of duplicating such a deal with Ankara raises doubts: already during the implementation of the Pakistani 20 contract a year ago, we had to engage in “cannibalism”, that is, dismantle old, canned machines. Constant delays in the execution of the 2011 contract with Thailand once again testify to serious problems in the Ukrainian military industrial complex. It is possible that for this reason Bangkok refused to purchase Ukrainian armored personnel carriers BTR-3, making a bet on the vehicles of the Chinese association Norinco. In April, 2017, the Marine Corps of Indonesia, prepared a proposal to its Ministry of Defense to refuse to purchase further Ukrainian armored personnel carriers BTR-4М. In 2012, Iraq refused from the BTR-4 because of the cracks found on the bodies of the first batch, preferring the Russian BTR-82.

The author of the article concludes that Ukraine has the necessary military-industrial technologies that can become the basis for the redesign of the Turkish tank "Altai". At the same time, the progressive deindustrialization of the state makes one doubt the possibility of organizing the production of engines in Ukraine based on the existing technological solutions. In this regard, by and large, there remains the option of transferring technology to Turkey. However, the United States may prohibit the Kiev regime from cooperating with Turkey on Altai. A similar situation arose with South Korea, which, along with Turkish Otokar, participated in the development of Altai. But the South Koreans could not transfer the engine production technology.

Comments

[cniza]

In this regard, by and large there remains the option of transferring technology to Turkey.

This is the main goal of Turkey.

[novel66]

wash themselves, where you yourself know who went through a Jew has nothing to do, the Pakistani script suits them more

[The black]

If the Turks want to close their project of "people's tank" then Ukraine is the most reliable partner

[cniza]

Quote: Black

If the Turks want to close their project of "people's tank" then Ukraine is the most reliable partner

In vain you are so, well, at least something they can do.

[drunkram]

repair 6TD-2 or 6TD-3 is the maximum that they can

nothing but technology transfer for this cooperation can go

[yehat]

Yes they can. Soon the whole of Kiev will be painted in yellow-blue colors.
it remains only to repaint the clothes and skin - everything is in one style and then happiness will come in Ukrainian. I am only interested in one thing - how is yellow-blue fat?

[Atalychek]

Yellow blue mouth

[210ox]

The lesson of Thailand did not teach the Turks ...

Quote: Black

If the Turks want to close their project of "people's tank" then Ukraine is the most reliable partner

[xetai9977]

And a wonderful goal! This is what countries that care about their defense industry should do

[The black]

Well, I think that the Turks will sell the issue of technology transfer to Ukraine. Those simply have nowhere to go. But they will not sell the Duc, they will buy some dill official.

[Zulu_S]

Quote: Black

Well, I think that the Turks will sell the issue of technology transfer to Ukraine

The Washington regional committee will say “down”, and both will wash themselves. Yu Koreans zapetili, and Ukraine even more so!

[Alexey RA]

Quote: xetai9977

And a wonderful goal! This is what countries that care about their defense industry should do

Countries that care about their defense industry should look for normal engines for themselves. And not unique and unparalleled worldwide push-pull opposer, heir to this one:

[svp67]

Quote: Alexey RA

Countries that care about their defense industry should look for normal engines for themselves. And not a unique and not having analogue in the world push-pull opposer, the heir of this:

Do you know that it burns? It is not the engine that is burning, but the heater, due to the driver’s mess, who did not make sure that the fuel valve was turned off and did not purge before starting the heater ...

[Alexey RA]

Quote: svp67

Do you know that it burns?

In the know, in the know. I also read Murakhovsky.

According to the instructions, at an air temperature above +5 - +8 ° С there should not be any problems with the engine starting - we start the starter-generator. If the temperature is lower, then we turn on the autonomous flare heating system, if it is below zero, we call for the help of oil injection. Together, these systems, again, according to the documents, should provide cold start at temperatures up to -20 ° C, and since 1984 even up to -25 ° C.
In practice, an experienced T-64 driver must have the ability of a meteorologist and fortuneteller at the same time, and therefore begins to think about startup problems when the air temperature is below about + 10 ° C. If high humidity is observed at this temperature, the engine from the “bare” starter may not start. The tank, which is in storage, and in previous days the temperature was noticeably lower - almost certainly will not start. But if the weather is dry, almost certainly it will start.
High humidity, along with low temperature and lack of air, is one of the main enemies of 5TDF and, accordingly, T-64 driver mechanics. He really does not like the two-stroke engine of high humidity and in every way refuses to start if it is damp and cold outside. The meanness of life is that it is this combination that is characteristic of gloomy German weather. And there is one hitch.
If the nasty dampness and low temperature occurred during the official winter period of operation, then there are no special problems. In this case, the standards allow time for the system to warm up with a heater. Even a two-stroke engine with hot coolant and warm oil starts up almost briskly.
The trouble is if the alarm is played on a wet and cold night during the summer period of operation. It is required to start the engines immediately, without preliminary heating by the built-in heater, because the norm does not provide for this. Naturally, the senior driver in these conditions always gives the command to turn on electric torch heating and always use oil injection, as it is written in the TOIE.
The drafters of the TO-TEE TO-64 apparently thought that having read their work, the mechanical driver would limit himself to these recommendations. But the company’s senior mechanic is grated kalach (and they don’t put others in this position). He knows that if at least one tank does not start up independently, then the ZKV company will be dripping on his brains for a very long time, remembering a mistake in place and out of place. If then this tank is not started by external means, then the senior mechanic’s driver will definitely have a vacation, and he will go on a demobilization with the last plane.
From these considerations, the senior driver makes a simple and unambiguous conclusion: PERE is better than NEDO. And he shows all the drivers three fingers with a fan. This means: flare heating, double oil injection, air intake.
The driver mechanics, with an unbroken hand, press the starter button, press twice on the oil injection switch, and then on the air release lever. Compressed air rushes under tremendous pressure into the cylinders, where it meets sprayed oil. Any student will say that such a hellish mixture inevitably gives an explosion. Correctly! If you stand next to the tank at this moment, you get the impression that a big mine exploded inside the car: a loud pop is heard, the body shudders, a long tongue of flame breaks out of the ejector. If something (or someone) is behind the ejector, then this object (or person) is littered with a continuous layer of oil, densely seasoned with soot.
Needless to say, the method of starting a barbaric and healthy engine is not conducive. However, the task has been completed, all tanks are roaring with engines, mechvody - on horseback. Once this barbarism hiccups to someone else. But the current mechvody for a long time will be in the civilian with a smile to leaf through the demobilization album. Unfortunately, neither the T-64 designers, nor the TOIE drafters even thought about such realities of the Soviet Army.

[svp67]

Quote: Alexey RA

I also read Murakhovsky

I will not dispute, but from my own experience I will tell. He served in the GSVG regiment to cover the border, so we were often raised on alert. The tanks were T-64A, with a sight TPD-K1. So, here we are, not shy about using both heaters and oil injection, there weren’t torch heaters on them, so somehow we started up without them. Yes, the heater was used at temperatures below +10. To understand a little bit like this, here's a video

One thing I will say is that give me the fur during the second oil injection, the engine started faster ...

[the villain]

Quote: xetai9977

This is what countries that care about their defense industry should do

Initially, they had to muddle their engine, it may not be cheaper, but more reliable.
For countries cherishing their military-industrial complex, this military-industrial complex should completely protect the needs of its army. But the Turks, in my opinion, gave a blunder here, and at the exit they have a situation when:
And today, not all tank engines can be built, or rather, not only everything, few can do it

[Olegovi4]

Quote: Villain

not only everything, few can

but a link to the afftor of this masterpiece, or at least a photo needs to be attached)))

[Cxnumx]

Quote: cniza

This is the main goal of Turkey.

you might think that Ukraine will entrust someone to supply))) someone waiting for "strongholds" will not wait?)

[Incvizitor]

No one will be able to conclude serious, long-term contracts with 404, because soon the People’s Republic of Hungary will appear and will have to negotiate with its authorities, the factories are there.

[The leader of the Redskins]

I think if Ankara does not make concessions, then the Altai project will have to be frozen. Ukraine does not need another competitor in the arms market (China is enough). As for the engine, you can not argue - like everyone else, their own advantages, their own shortcomings.

[rotmistr60]

Ukraine does not need another competitor in the arms market

So far, Ukraine has made good marks on the "black market" of weapons. It’s not good to sell something legally. Either the products are not high-quality, then the contracts are broken, and sometimes a simple scammer.

[Lostcoast]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

Ukraine does not need another competitor in the arms market (China is enough)

Is this sarcasm I hope?

[core]

apparently they still agree with China, Ukraine is not an independent state, they will not be allowed to transfer technology, it’s not just sanctions against Turkey, it’s sabotage, Europeans and Americans do not want to lose the market of NATO’s largest army. German Leo has a very narrow market, and somewhere else, old modifications of abrams should be put in place. Altai will be ruined to the last.

[kapitan92]

Quote: core

apparently still agree with China, Ukraine is not an independent state, they will not be allowed to transfer technology,

Turks will solve all problems with the junta. The mattresses did not yet understand who they contacted. It is enough to recall how many technologies were transferred (sold) to China, the DPRK, including in the field of rocket science and aviation.

Quote: core

Altai will be ruined to the last.

Wait and see. Erdogash Kalach grated. Sultan however.

[scary]

There are some hopes that Ukraine will still be able to supply engines. Against this, of course, is the failure with the "Bastions", where it was the tank nomenclature, and not the Bether one. Although in the tank, in addition to the engine, there are still many difficulties that could lead to such a slow pace of production. And the “for” is that the BTR-4 was a modification of this particular family of engines, 3TD, and for all the design features there were no particular complaints about it. The engine itself is pretty good. Despite the fact that it is 2-stroke, it eats a lot of oil, but it is not all countries that can produce such units with 40 tons of fuel each. Moreover, it will be guaranteed to produce 1350 hp. in the most difficult conditions. In the tanks of the Soviet school, this engine is more than sufficient, it gives specific power on a par with the Abrams.

[Lostcoast]

Quote: engy

scary

... President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko approved the NSDC decision on the expansion of anti-Russian sanctions. Now Yandex, Vkontakte, and Odnoklassniki will block Yandex.

In short, the glory of Ukraine ...

[svp67]

Quote: engy

The engine itself is pretty good. Despite the fact that it is 2-stroke, it eats a lot of oil, but it is not all countries that can produce such units with 40 tons of fuel each.

Yes, far from all countries can produce tank engines, but they have long abandoned two-stroke engines, the last to be the British, who switched to four-stroke engines as more reliable.

[scary]

Yes, 4-stroke ones are more comfortable and economical, but if we look at modern tanks, then gas turbine ones are used. These engines give more power, which is quite relevant for NATO tanks - their tanks are heavier. Today 6TD is the most powerful tank diesel engine. Gas turbines have a problem; this is air purification for the air supply system. At one time, the 5TD also had a similar problem (all the same aerotechnologies), but then this problem was solved by installing a cyclone apparatus as a cleaning step. That helped. Why Kharkov refused in the 90s from gas turbine internal combustion engines that it did not give such reliability. Had the USSR been forced to deal with this problem, but it did not grow together.

[svp67]

Quote: engy

Today 6TD is the most powerful engine of tank diesel engines.

You are sure? And what power is German MB 873, Finnish V8X 1500, Russian 12H360?

Quote: engy

Gas turbines have a problem; this is air purification for the air supply system.

This is a problem for all tank engines, for four-stroke diesel engines it is less complicated, but with regard to two-stroke engines, it is almost the same as that of a gas turbine engine

Quote: engy

Why Kharkov refused in the 90s from gas turbine internal combustion engines that it did not give such reliability.

No, he refused for a completely different reason, then he would have had to CLOSE his motor design bureau and work on Klimov's design bureau, and the Malaysites would have had a LOT of work pushing their engine into the T-80. I will say more that for the production of gas turbine engines already at the Malyshev engine plant, EVERYTHING was READY. They managed to convince only that the 6TD, with the same power as the gas turbine engine, namely 1200 hp, was more economical and used cheaper fuel. And the fact that GTE is more reliable than other engines, so I can say FULLY.

[Lostcoast]

Quote: svp67

svp67 from push-pull all have long been abandoned

even the Japanese, for which fans of two-stroke engines on their new Type-10 tank put a 4-stroke engine.

[scary]

I won’t say anything about drinking, I don’t know. Why did the Malovites have to push their engines with difficulty when there was no Union anymore. We proceeded solely from utilitarian things. Finnish and German ICEs are still expensive, I think, although yes, they are, but the Russian ICE, I see, is quite new. How he will show himself is not yet clear.

[Lostcoast]

Quote: engy

but the Russian ICE, I see, is quite new. How he will show himself is not yet clear.

But what's not clear? See the “B” series motors themselves have stepped over 1000 and are mass-produced and sold. Under them are objects above the roof. And the X-shaped ones are no longer an experiment and not experiments, but rather well-adopted threshers. It’s worth comparing with bending Kharkiv? If the Turkologists buy ukromto, then about 6td it will be possible to speak not in the museum and in the past tense.

[svp67]

Quote: engy

Why did the Malovites have to push their engines with difficulty when there was no Union anymore.

6TD was created in the USSR in the mid-80s.

Quote: engy

Russian ICE, I see, is quite new.

Alas, but he is already more than 20 years old, by the way, he has already been tested and run in civilian cars a long time ago

[scary]

Kharkiv did not like this engine. It was necessary to modify it, as I have already indicated. The Kharkiv Design Bureau was not in danger. Rather, he was handed over with the right to make changes, so local designers would have been in the case anyway. As for the new engines - in any case, the 6TD still has a niche in 6-7 years. Yes, after the “Almaty” tank building revived around the world, so the last limits of applicability of the old developments have already become visible. Even 5-6 years ago this was not noticeable.

[svp67]

Quote: engy

The Kharkiv Design Bureau was not in danger.

He was threatened with a significant reduction, and, accordingly, a decrease in cash for the entire Malyshev plant.

Quote: engy

Rather, he was transferred with the right to make changes,

Not in this case. GTE engine is not their topic.

[scary]

In Soviet Union? Abbreviations? Yes, God is with you.

[svp67]

Quote: engy

In Soviet Union? Abbreviations? Yes, God is with you.

Yes, in the Soviet Union and reduction. The situation with the three main tanks was completely UNACCEPTABLE. As a single was chosen T-80U. They were going to put it on stream at all plants. Even then categorically there was not enough money.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: engy

Yes, 4-stroke ones are more comfortable and economical, but if we look at modern tanks, then gas turbine ones are used. These engines give more power, which is quite relevant for NATO tanks - their tanks are heavier.

GTE also has enough shortcomings. It is not for nothing that the Yankees regularly raise the issue of installing on the “Abrams” during the modernization of the diesel engine (German).

[svp67]

Quote: Alexey RA

It is not for nothing that the Yankees regularly raise the issue of installing on the “Abrams” during the modernization of the diesel engine (German).

And just as often reject this idea ...

[d.gksueyjd]

engy - The question is how this engine will work at an altitude of for example 1000m and how much real power it will have.

[scary]

This is such data that I will not say for sure. During the Indo-Pakistani conflict in 1999-2000. in mountainous conditions, Pakistani T-84 tanks in this sense looked better than Indian T-90s. Those engines claimed 1200 hp. 1350 h.p. it is also a stable indicator without all kinds of tricks. 1500 h.p. - This is a novelty, of course, you need to look here.

[Tolstoevsky]

so they need

[Lostcoast]

This time perhaps I agree

[pvv113]

However, the US may prohibit the Kiev regime cooperation with Turkey

Normal colonial policy

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

It is not clear that a country like Turkey is not able to make ICE ?!

[Lostcoast]

Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan

It is not clear that a country like Turkey is not able to make ICE ?!

What such When was Turkey an engineering and technical power? They are now just starting to catch up, copywriting as early as China ...

[LEK]

Turkey already has engines at 275 and 400 hp. By 2020, there will be 600, 800 and 1000 hp according to plan.
Havelsan said the engine with a power of at least 1500 hp will be ready no earlier than 2026.
But Turkey does not want to wait ...

[Lostcoast]

Quote: LEK

Turkey already has engines at 275 and 400 hp

Yes, for the truck, the motors and the BTR-BMP can be pulled in. And about

Quote: LEK

By 2020, there will be 600, 800 and 1000 hp according to plan.

I doubt very much for tanks.
Maybe by 2026 they will save MTU-1500 from leopard2, the benefit is available

[LEK]

Turkey already has engines at 275 and 400 hp. By 2020, there will be 600, 800 and 1000 hp according to plan.
Havelsan said the engine with a power of at least 1500 hp will be ready no earlier than 2026.
But Turkey does not want to wait ...

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan

It is not clear that a country like Turkey is not able to make ICE ?!

Heh heh heh ... even the Yankees planned a German engine for their "diesel abram".

[A1845]

can't believe
West refuses Turkey, and "offal" will help?
rather break all ties at a loss, as usual, just to get another handout

[samoletil18]

It would be more correct to write that the West and the Ukrainian leadership are doing everything to ensure that in the event of reconciliation between Russia and Ukraine, only the bare field without black soil would remain in the latter.

[tekinoral]

The West does not refuse, the Turks want to have their own, the first 250 tanks will be MTU

[Zaurbek]

The West just refuses. Technology does not transmit. It sells finished MTUs only for Turkish tanks, and for those sold to the side it blocks the supply ...

[andrewkor]

It was called "Altai" - buy a diesel Barnaultransmash !! In I turned down the slogan, what it is !!!

[Dart2027]

And it will be funny if in the end the engines are bought from us.

[Moby_by]

Ukrainians must set a condition, in return to gain access to the development of Altai. Turkey is a great option for cooperation. Thanks to such cooperation, Ukraine will be able to create a modern tank.

[d.gksueyjd]

I do not understand why only Turkey 2-stroke diesel engines in a mountainous country? It is more profitable for Turkey to buy normal turbocharged diesel engines, which are less powerful, but more predictable when used in mountainous areas.

[Olegovi4]

not an article, but continuous contradictions.
Altai "cooler" deutscheopard ?!
started with engines and continued with armor problems? how does it fit together, y-mine ?!

[d.gksueyjd]

In a mountainous country, gas turbine engines will work more efficiently than diesel engines and Ukraine has a chance to "cram" the products of a dying "sitora", in which case the transaction will be mutually beneficial.

[Großer feldherr]

given the long-term interests of the Russian Federation, which will not sacrifice key technology for the sake of current benefits.

How does the phrase sound strongly against the background of sales of the most advanced technology to China and the S400 to Turks

[Zulu_S]

Sell ​​TECHNOLOGY, not TECHNOLOGY! There is a difference?