Military Review

Medium Tank Kaplan MT (Turkey / Indonesia)

44
Right now in Turkish Istanbul is another exhibition of weapons and military equipment IDEF 2017. Within the framework of this event, Turkey and foreign countries present both already known and completely new samples of various classes and different purposes. One of the most interesting novelties of the current exhibition is a promising medium tank Kaplan MT, which appeared as a result of cooperation of military enterprises of Turkey and Indonesia.


Medium project tank Kaplan MT was developed as part of a collaboration between the Turkish company FNSS and the Indonesian PT Pindad. In the near future, a new armored vehicle may be offered to the armed forces of Indonesia. In the future, its entry into the international arms and equipment market with the aim of obtaining new contracts is not ruled out. However, for obvious reasons, while the authors of the project can only make plans regarding the future of the tank.


Medium tank Kaplan MT in preparation for the exhibition. Photo Defence-blog.com


The joint Turkish-Indonesian project Kaplan MT is another modern attempt to create and launch a medium-sized tank on the market, characterized by rather high technical and combat characteristics, but at the same time having a price acceptable to most potential buyers. In addition, certain features of the shown machine clearly indicate that it was developed taking into account the experience of local conflicts of recent decades and is intended for use in such wars.

It can be argued that the basis of the Kaplan MT project is the desire to create a new armored vehicle, devoid of the shortcomings of the main battle tanks. The appearance of the latter was formed taking into account the peculiarities of a hypothetical major war between powerful military-political blocs, as a result of which the highest characteristics and unique capabilities were obtained. However, in the context of local conflicts with numerous urban battles, etc. main tanks do not show themselves in the best way.

In light of the features of the so-called. low intensity conflicts, the main tanks are prohibitively expensive to purchase and operate, and are also not sufficiently protected from characteristic threats. The highest firepower, in turn, is often redundant due to the frequent lack of comparable targets for the enemy. Thus, a tank adapted to local conflicts should differ markedly from the armored vehicle of the main class. This problem was attempted by Turkish and Indonesian experts.

It should be noted that the project of a promising medium tank cannot be called a novelty. For the first time, information about this development was published two years ago - in May, 2015. Then the joint program was called MMWT (Modern Medium Weight Tank - "Perspective medium weight tank"). In the autumn of last year, some information, drawings and three-dimensional animation, showing the tank and its main features, were published. The first full-scale model of an armored vehicle was shown only after the opening of the IDEF 2017 exhibition.


Advertising image armored vehicles. Photo FNSS / fnss.com.tr


To obtain the required characteristics and capabilities, as well as reduce the cost of finished equipment in the Kaplan MT project, it was proposed to use the maximum number of ready-made components. Thus, the redesigned Kaplan 20 infantry fighting vehicle chassis of Turkish design, also proposed for use in some other projects, should be used as the main element of the medium tank. It is proposed to mount an existing Belgian-made combat module on the chassis, carrying barrel and missile weapons. All this allows to significantly reduce the final cost of serial equipment and thereby attract potential customers.

An interesting feature of the new project, which distinguishes it from other similar developments, is the approach to shaping the appearance of the chassis. For some reason, the designers of FNSS and PT Pindad decided to noticeably rework the body and layout of the existing BMP, rebuilding it in accordance with traditional views on the design of tanks. In the case of the Kaplan 20 BMP and other machines of the new family, the front part of the hull was given under the engine compartment, and the landing compartment was located in the stern. The promising medium tank received the aft power compartment, while the released volumes were allocated for crew accommodation and weapons.

In accordance with current requirements, promising medium tank received several levels of protection. Provision is made for the use of a hull's own booking (apparently with homogeneous protection) capable of withstanding firing of a frontal projection from small-caliber guns. On top of the hull armor, it is proposed to install additional mounted modules that increase resistance to shells and cumulative ammunition. There is mine protection in the form of bevelled side parts of the bottom. It is noteworthy that the exact protection parameters have not yet been announced.

The use of the finished hull, subjected to certain modifications, led to the preservation of the main external contours. Thus, the frontal projection of the hull is protected by two inclined armor plates of various shapes and sizes. The upper part is located under a large slope and occupies about a third of the total body length. The lower armor plate has a smaller angle of inclination and protects most of the projection. The upper frontal leaf is also a protection for developed flank niches. Behind the front of the unit are vertical sides with rectangular niches and a horizontal roof. As with the base BMP, several feed sheets are used, collected at different angles.

In the aft hull of the tank Kaplan MT is proposed to place the power plant, made in the form of a single unit. It is argued that to obtain the required characteristics of the machine will have a specific power at the level of 20 hp per ton. Thus, it is planned to use engines with a capacity of at least 700 hp. Due to this, the tank will be able to reach speeds of up to 75 km / h and show a power reserve at the level of 450 km.


Advertising image armored vehicles. Photo FNSS / fnss.com.tr


The transfer of the power plant in the aft compartment demanded the appropriate refinement of the chassis. The latter, in general, retains the previous design, however, some of its elements have undergone refinement. On each side of the hull there are six support rollers of average diameter, equipped with an individual torsion bar suspension. Additional depreciation is not used. Between the third and fourth pairs of rollers there is an increased gap. In front of the hull are the guide wheels, in the stern - leading. The medium tank on display at IDEF 2017 received tracks with additional rubber pads. Chassis cover rubber-sided screens.

Basic BMP was equipped with fodder water cannons for movement on water. In connection with the growth of combat mass and other requirements for the characteristics of the tank at its base lost such equipment. Water barriers can be overcome only ford.

The new project Kaplan MT provides for the use of the Belgian CMI Cockerill 3105 combat module. This product was developed as part of the Cockerill 3000 series, distinguished by the use of a modular approach to shaping the appearance of finished samples. The numbers in the designation of the combat module indicate the caliber of the main armament - 105 mm. The tower is made habitable, but it has automated weapon service and control systems.

The combat module CMI Cockerill 3105 has an armored body of complex shape, formed by several straight panels of different sizes. There is a trapezoidal frontal part, in the central embrasure of which a pyramidal swinging mask of the gun is placed. The sides of the tower are installed with a slight inclination inward. Provision is made for the use of a relatively large forage niche, which own sides are covered with additional armor plates. In the frontal part of the turret, the cannon installation and its control systems are located, the central volume is designed to accommodate the crew, and in the stern niche there is a mechanized stacking of ammunition.

The main weapon of the Kaplan MT medium tank is the 105-mm rifled gun launcher. The gun is equipped with a developed muzzle brake and ejector. The barrel is equipped with a heat shield. The gun is compatible with all existing ammunition caliber 105 mm for various purposes. In addition, the possibility of using several types of guided missiles. The gun is equipped with an automatic loader, which supplies unitary shots from the stern battle system of the turret. All control of the instrument and the automatic loader is carried out with crew jobs.


Cockerill 3000 family of battle modules. Figure CMI / cmigroupe.com


For observation, search for targets and weapon guidance, it is proposed to use two sets of optical-electronic systems mounted on the roof of the tower. The starboard frontal part of the tower has a relatively deep niche in which one of the means of observation is located. The second is placed at the left side of the U-shaped support, providing guidance in two planes. As you can see, both devices are equipped with video cameras, thermal imagers and laser range finders.

The armored vehicle is proposed to be equipped with modern means of communication, providing data transmission and target designation. Provides for the use of navigation equipment, means of detecting laser irradiation, etc.

To the left of the gun on the same machine with it is placed a twin machine gun rifle caliber. The prototype of the tank shown on the IDEF 2017 does not have anti-aircraft armament mounted on the turret roof. Perhaps in the future, the tank will receive any additional combat module. The project proposes the use of smoke grenade launchers. The first demonstration materials showed the possibility of installing such equipment on the cheeks or sides of the tower. On the new prototype, grenade launchers are placed on the stern of the turret, under the outer armor cover.

To manage a new type of combat vehicle must be a crew of three. The workplace of the driver is placed in front of the case with a slight shift towards its center. To access the control compartment, an upper hatch is used, on which a “traditional” set of viewing devices is also placed. Because of the relatively large tower, the driver's hatch has a cover that is moved to the side. The commander and gunner are located in the fighting compartment. They have their own hatches in the roof of the tower, and must also use the existing optoelectronic and other equipment. The project proposes the use of wireless communications crew. Inhabited compartments have a collective defense system against weapons of mass destruction.


Experienced Kaplan MT at IDEF 2017. Photo by Jakartagreater.com


According to the available data, a prospective Turkish-Indonesian medium tank should be little different from the already known infantry fighting vehicle Kaplan 20. At the same time, the presence of a different heavier tower, additional reservations and various modifications of the design led to an increase in the combat mass to 35 t and a corresponding change in the mobility characteristics.

To date, the company FNSS and PT Pindad managed to build only a prototype of the promising medium tank Kaplan MT, right now participating in the exhibition IDEF 2017. Probably in the near future there may be new prototypes. At what stage the project is located is unknown. Perhaps an experienced tank has already reached the landfill or will do it in the very near future. At the same time, it can be expected that during the tests and refinement the authors of the project will have to face certain difficulties. Despite a certain unification with an existing model, a new type of tank has new features and characteristics.

The newest medium tank, developed taking into account the experience of recent armed conflicts, may be of particular interest to various customers, primarily for the armies of the countries developing the project. Already there is information about the possible appearance of a contract for the supply of Kaplan MT armored vehicles to the armed forces of Indonesia. In the future, Turkey may also show its interest in this technology, as well as making every effort to update the fleet of armored vehicles of the ground forces. In the foreseeable future, the Turkish Defense Ministry intends to replace the outdated technology with newer Kaplan vehicles, which could also lead to the purchase of tanks based on such a chassis. Whether the new armored vehicle will be able to interest other foreign countries is too early to say.

The promising medium tank Kaplan MT, presented at IDEF 2017, is another attempt to solve existing problems typical of modern armed conflicts. Despite the most serious progress in the field of armored vehicles, outdated medium tanks of the middle of the last century are still widespread. Judging by the available data, they are considered as the main opponents of the newest Turkish-Indonesian tank. To combat such goals, the tank does not need a powerful smooth-bore gun and can use a smaller-caliber rifled system.


Onboard part of the car. Photo by Jakartagreater.com


Declared the use of its own and additional funds to protect the combat vehicle from both kinetic and cumulative ammunition. A curved bottom should provide enhanced protection against explosive devices. All these measures were taken in the light of the characteristic threats of the present time, due to the large proliferation of a variety of infantry anti-tank systems and mines.

A curious feature of the new project is the use of a ready-made chassis platform. Such an approach to development could be proposed not only due to the need to reduce the cost of equipment due to unification. Currently, the Turkish military is considering the Kaplan platform as the main means of upgrading the fleet of armored vehicles. An average tank based on such a chassis is fully capable of finding a place in the Turkish army, and a unified chassis will help simplify its operation.

It should be noted that the average tank Kaplan MT of the joint Turkish-Indonesian development is not something revolutionary new. The problems of the main battle tanks in the context of modern local conflicts became known a long time ago, and already many of the market participants in the armored vehicles managed to respond to such challenges. Over the past few years, a number of well-known companies from different countries have offered their options for medium-mass armored vehicles with cannon armament, capable of fighting obsolete medium tanks, but not differing in excessive cost.

Thus, entering the international market, the newest medium tank Kaplan MT will face quite tough competition. He will have to "compete" with already known samples that have been present on the market for a longer time and, as a result, have managed to attract more attention. It is also necessary to take into account that the new medium tanks - with all their advantages - have not yet received wide distribution. Despite all the expectations and the logic of the emergence of such technology, machines of this class are not in particular demand among customers. Thus, several projects will have to fight for a few orders at once - if they still appear.

Known information about the possible mass production of Kaplan MT tanks for Indonesia can be a cause for restrained optimism among developers. In this case, the car really has a chance to reach mass production and operation in the army. However, the specificity of the military equipment market is such that the new project has every chance of being lost among similar foreign developments and leading to the re-equipment of only one or two armies.


On the materials of the sites:
https://fnss.com.tr/
http://cmigroupe.com/
http://defence-blog.com/
http://monch.com/
https://jakartagreater.com/
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  1. Andrey Yuryevich
    Andrey Yuryevich 11 May 2017 06: 53
    +1
    Kaplan Medium Tank
    Kaplan, I understood the surname ... and the name Fanny ... yes
    1. The brightest
      The brightest 11 May 2017 07: 46
      0
      For whom did MT write the initials? Moischa Teyvalovich))))))))))
    2. RASKAT
      RASKAT 11 May 2017 09: 09
      +1
      And I was especially pleased with the fuel cans, right above the engine compartment.
      A couple of tracer bullets and arrived. Great idea, keep it up for Turkish designers wassat
      1. loft79
        loft79 11 May 2017 12: 17
        +2
        "pleased the fuel cans" the canisters will outweigh, and then the tank crews are not fools, march by march, battle by battle. Here interesting tanks appear medium.
        1. KaPToC
          KaPToC 11 May 2017 22: 52
          0
          Quote: loft79
          Here interesting tanks appear medium.

          What is needed is an average platform, such as armata, only easier, easier, cheaper, for infantry divisions, such as to be released in thousands a year.
      2. k_ply
        k_ply 11 May 2017 14: 53
        +4
        Quote: RASKAT
        And I was especially pleased with the fuel cans, right above the engine compartment.
        A couple of tracer bullets and arrived. Great idea, keep it up for Turkish designers wassat

        Not even incendiary, but a tracer bullet to light DT? Bravo! It's like a Bengal fire to a salaru. The ignition temperature of not the liquid itself, but the heated vapor should be at least 200 ° C, BUT and this at atm. pressure in the medium (combustion chamber) up to 3,0 MPa or 30 kgf / m². Have you seen fuel barrels in the stern of tanks, even on the T-34? Hammer in the search engine.
        1. iConst
          iConst 11 May 2017 18: 18
          +1
          Quote: k_ply
          Quote: RASKAT
          And I was especially pleased with the fuel cans, right above the engine compartment.
          A couple of tracer bullets and arrived. Great idea, keep it up for Turkish designers wassat

          Not even incendiary, but a tracer bullet to light DT? Bravo! It's like a Bengal fire to a salaru. The ignition temperature of not the liquid itself, but the heated vapor should be at least 200 ° C, BUT and this at atm. pressure in the medium (combustion chamber) up to 3,0 MPa or 30 kgf / m². Have you seen fuel barrels in the stern of tanks, even on the T-34? Hammer in the search engine.

          When an armor-piercing bullet or projectile hits a metal, it’s not like 200 degrees, there is a sheaf of white sparks with a temperature of a thousand degrees. And the place of contact glows bright scarlet. So the solarium in these conditions burns "with a bang."

          External fuel tanks were filled only on marches - to increase the distance of the transition. We went into battle with the "dry".
          1. jonhr
            jonhr 11 May 2017 22: 15
            +2
            refuse solarium? laughing
          2. k_ply
            k_ply 12 May 2017 11: 08
            +1
            Quote: iConst
            When an armor-piercing bullet or projectile hits a metal, it’s not like 200 degrees, there is a sheaf of white sparks with a temperature of a thousand degrees. AND the spot shines bright scarlet. So the solarium in these conditions burns "with a bang."

            Colorfully about the effects of the cumulative jet on the armor - tank kirdyk. Well, where is the participation of solariums, where is its original role in the destruction of the tank? And what about tracers (!) Or bullets with heat-strengthened cores (I see no difference)? There is no involvement of external canisters with d / t (possibly nylon). Those. they simply clung to the aforementioned t ° of ignition of d / t vapor (not liquid), lowering atmospheric conditions (pressure in a hot chamber saturated with air). It was not just that the Bengal fire was mentioned (t burning 1100 °). And diesels have glow plugs (t up to 1000-1300 °), but no! they heat the air in the cylinders, but do not ignite d / t. I repeat - the liquid itself will not burn!
            You can only create a number of conditions simply to start burning d / t vapors, otherwise the resulting fuel will not burn. A solarium can burn, it can participate in a fire, it can even intensify the flame with its vapors released during heating, but it will not be the root cause of the destruction of the tank, unless the fire is artificially "creaked".
            In normal combat conditions, even with an overcoat (forgotten) in advance on the tank and coniferous branches for camouflage, fire and the subsequent explosion with the destruction of the tank, do not wait, it will not. You do not know the conditions of combustion and detonation d / t. That is not gasoline, and the Molotov Cocktail appeared at one time for a reason.

            PS: Also, their specialists hang fuel cans on their diesel jeeps and buggies - "here they are stupid!"
      3. Grukhin
        Grukhin 12 May 2017 14: 55
        0
        These are canisters from crayfish, and the turks always do not burn diluted with them. drinks
    3. xetai9977
      xetai9977 11 May 2017 09: 24
      +3
      Kaplan in Turkish Leopard. As for the tank, it has its own niche of application. In counter-guerrilla warfare, the use of main tanks is too prudent. Turkish tank seems to have to compete with a similar Chinese tank
      1. spravochnik
        spravochnik 11 May 2017 11: 50
        0
        Quote: xetai9977
        Kaplan in Turkish Leopard. As for the tank, it has its own niche of application. In counterguerrilla warfare, the use of main tanks too prudent. Turkish tank seems to have to compete with a similar Chinese tank

        Not TOO FULL, but TOO WELL.
      2. CTABEP
        CTABEP 11 May 2017 21: 54
        0
        Use a tank in a counterguerrilla war that will break through into any projection from any RPG? IMHO, not a cake. Although nothing has been written about armor protection, DZ is not visible, and the ability to shove normal combined armor into this mass is doubtful.
    4. evil partisan
      evil partisan 11 May 2017 10: 43
      +1
      Quote: Andrey Yurievich
      Kaplan, I understood the name ... and the name is Fanny.
      Those. she reincarnated into a tank, so it turns out what. I didn’t know that during reincarnation the gender changes sad
      Hi, retirement! drinks
      1. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 11 May 2017 18: 51
        +2
        I, excuse me, may not be in the topic, but the first association with the name is childhood memory. There was a fool in the city - a long, dumb, mentally retarded man, whom everyone called Borya Kaplan ...
  2. tchoni
    tchoni 11 May 2017 08: 21
    +1
    It would be necessary to stir up the same heresy at the base of the Kurgan. And the old PT76 will be replaced and exported. There is a chassis, it remains to adapt the tower from the octopus to it.
    1. Pivot
      Pivot 11 May 2017 14: 33
      +1
      We have a BMP3 PT76 replacement is not bad
      1. tchoni
        tchoni 12 May 2017 08: 56
        0
        BMP 3 unfortunately, the PT76 does not replace. But only complements. In addition, the car is very controversial. Genosses from the emirates, who were trying to call a car in battle with an infernal meat grinder or a mass grave, were trying to call it.
        1. gallville
          gallville 13 May 2017 22: 58
          0
          Quote: tchoni
          BMP 3 unfortunately, the PT76 does not replace. But only complements.

          What is this expressed in? In armament, the BMP-3 is noticeably better than the PT-76.
          Quote: tchoni
          In addition, the car is very controversial.

          Inconsistent primarily because of the vertical loading mechanism of melon-y. In the presence of cardboard armor.
          In general, the replacement pt-76 is an octopus-sd. Although the concept of the pt-76 showed insolvency back in Vietnam.
          1. Zaurbek
            Zaurbek 14 May 2017 09: 38
            0
            ..a in Israel has shown viability.
            1. gallville
              gallville 14 May 2017 19: 34
              0
              In Israel, they showed the BTR-50 themselves. PT-76 there were insofar as. One-time crossing the river. With guidance crossing for a full-fledged BTT.
          2. Blackgrifon
            Blackgrifon 14 May 2017 13: 27
            +1
            Quote: gallville
            general replacement pt-76 is an octopus-sd

            Octopus-SD is NOT a replacement for the PT-76. The Airborne Forces ordered a light tank to fight against enemy tanks (they were turned into self-propelled guns due to the specifics of the control functionality), and the ground forces wanted to have a light armored unit as a replacement for rapiers.

            In Vietnam, the PT-76 just showed its viability. As in India and in Israel. It is only necessary to study the material in detail.
            1. gallville
              gallville 14 May 2017 19: 40
              0
              Quote: Blackgrifon
              Octopus-SD is NOT a replacement for the PT-76.

              This is the closest in ideology.
              Quote: Blackgrifon
              The Airborne Forces ordered a light tank to deal with enemy tanks (they were turned into self-propelled guns due to the features of the control functionality)

              And who else to order a light tank? MP RF which has 8.5 thousand hp for all 5 fleets?
              Quote: Blackgrifon
              and the ground forces wanted to have a light armored unit as a replacement for rapiers.

              There is no octopus in NE, nor are there substitutes for rapiers. In no form at the moment. Because it just doesn't make sense. SV has enough means of destruction. Rapier is a light firearm.
              Quote: Blackgrifon
              In Vietnam, the PT-76 just showed its viability. As in India and in Israel. It is only necessary to study the material in detail.

              So in detail the weakly armored pt-76s without impressive weapons did not bring any benefit. Even the Americans initially using their Sheridans eventually abandoned this approach.
              1. Blackgrifon
                Blackgrifon 14 May 2017 22: 12
                0
                Quote: gallville
                So in detail the weakly armored pt-76s without impressive weapons did not bring any benefit.

                Strange, why are Vietnam and Indonesia still not written off? It is just according to all the literature that, with proper use, the PT-76 allowed to reduce losses. Another thing is that Vietnam did not have a lot of them, and then medium tanks began to supply them.

                Quote: gallville
                There is no octopus in NE, nor are there substitutes for rapiers. In no form at the moment. Because it just doesn't make sense. SV has enough means of destruction. Rapier is a light firearm.

                The rapier must be transported, transported and the calculation is covered only by a shield. The idea was to replace Rapiers with Octopus-SD. Now, it seems, they have changed their minds.
                Quote: gallville
                And who else to order a light tank? MP RF which has 8.5 thousand hp for all 5 fleets?

                Airborne, marines, "mountain" units - a lot to whom.
                By the way, the marines now seem to not even have a BMP - only the BTR-80 / 82A. And as it was urgently needed to build a base in Syria, it was the Marines who sent it. Giving them a dozen T-90s.
                1. gallville
                  gallville 14 May 2017 23: 02
                  0
                  Quote: Blackgrifon
                  Strange, why are Vietnam and Indonesia still not written off?

                  Well, you found an example =)) Vietnam has the T-55 in service, so now put them in service? Indonesia island state. By the way, they are slowly buying up the BMP-3F. How strange PT-76 they are not interested.
                  Quote: Blackgrifon
                  The rapier must be transported, transported and the calculation is covered only by a shield.

                  Rapier is a light firearm. Can be freely transferred by helicopter. This is her main advantage. By the way, like the weight of the BC.
                  Quote: Blackgrifon
                  The idea was to replace Rapiers with Octopus-SD. Now, it seems, they have changed their minds.

                  For the first time I hear. First of all, is SV tight with 2a46? Each brigade has 41 tanks. Secondly, what is the logic of changing 100mm to 120mm different niches?
                  Thirdly, you probably mixed up the D-30 (which remained only in the Airborne Forces) who decided to change to Gvozdiki / Hosta. There, the replacement of towed howitzers with self-propelled.
                  Quote: Blackgrifon
                  Airborne, marines, "mountain" units - a lot to whom.

                  The main thing would be really. A tank without armor is not a tank. PT funds and so enough.
                  Other means add to the specified power according to the situation. Airborne aviation, attached tanks, marines tanks / ships / aviation, mountain helicopters and those same tanks.
                  Quote: Blackgrifon
                  By the way, the marines now seem to not even have a BMP - only the BTR-80 / 82A. And as it was urgently needed to build a base in Syria, it was the Marines who sent it. Giving them a dozen T-90s.

                  Well, they took the t-80 from them. Now they attach it. And yet yes bmp3f never dreamed of. Some parts even on the BTR-82 are not rich, they go to MTLB. (those in the Far East).
                  But the point is not this light tank is a very specific thing with dubious use due to the presence of serious fire weapons at the BMP. Even the PT-76 against the background of the BMP-1 looked doubtful.
                  1. Blackgrifon
                    Blackgrifon 15 May 2017 14: 20
                    0
                    Quote: gallville
                    Indonesia island state. By the way, they are slowly buying up the BMP-3F. How strange PT-76 they are not interested.

                    Which still uses them and upgrades them precisely because of this.
                    Quote: gallville
                    For the first time I hear. First of all, is SV tight with 2a46? Each brigade has 41 tanks. Secondly, what is the logic of changing 100mm to 120mm different niches?
                    Thirdly, you probably mixed up the D-30 (which remained only in the Airborne Forces) who decided to change to Gvozdiki / Hosta. There, the replacement of towed howitzers with self-propelled.

                    Well no. Just in a long time, it was directly indicated in all literature and in the media that the SV wanted to replace the old anti-tank towed Rapiers with the Octopus-SD. The 100s have less armor penetration and new guided projectiles are not suitable for it - time is running out and the old PT guns need to be changed. And since towed PT-gun is considered a morally obsolete concept and they want to replace them with modern technology.
                    Quote: gallville
                    The main thing would be really. A tank without armor is not a tank.

                    Just, it seems, it was precisely because of the armor (and money) that the SV and MP refused the Sprut-SD. The armored unit with a protection level lower than that of the BMP is not comme il faut.
                    BMP-1 and the PT-76 were buried :) Another thing is that with current trends (cost growth, weight, the need to transfer to a long distance and new technologies) the concept of a relatively cheap light / medium tank with anti-missile and RPG protection systems with equal or close firepower with MBT looks very interesting.

                    Quote: gallville
                    go to mtlb. (those in the Far East).

                    Did not know. Shitty ...
                    1. gallville
                      gallville 16 May 2017 17: 00
                      0
                      Quote: Blackgrifon
                      Which still uses them and upgrades them precisely because of this.

                      Honestly, I did not hear about serial modernization. I know there were proposals for installing a 57mm gun. But these are projects of the Russian Federation.
                      Quote: Blackgrifon
                      Well no. Just in a long time, it was directly indicated in all literature and in the media that the SV wanted to replace the old anti-tank towed Rapiers with the Octopus-SD.

                      Maybe somewhere indicated. But the current staff of the brigades clearly show the replacement of the D-30 with cloves 1 to 1.
                      The rapier was left for speed of transfer. This is more likely not a Fri means, but a means of amplification in difficult terrain.
                      Quote: Blackgrifon
                      Just, it seems, it was precisely because of the armor (and money) that the SV and MP refused the Sprut-SD. The armored unit with a protection level lower than that of the BMP is not comme il faut.

                      Yes, it's not even comme il faut. Octopus in armament and suo copy of the t-90. In the presence of t-90 why sv and mp octopus?
                      Quote: Blackgrifon
                      BMP-1 and the PT-76 were buried :) Another thing is that with current trends (cost growth, weight, the need to transfer to a long distance and new technologies) the concept of a relatively cheap light / medium tank with anti-missile and RPG protection systems with equal or close firepower with MBT looks very interesting.

                      This is probably true for Western countries where they weigh about 70 tons. Soviet concept of tanks weighing less than 50t. eliminates all the advantages of a light tank.
                      Quote: Blackgrifon
                      Did not know. Sucks.

                      It is what it is. With MP as with the fleet is very tight. Admirals submariners have a poor understanding of what to do by surface forces, including MP. Permanent gestures with over-the-horizon landing of publications on the subject of efv for the mp of the Russian Federation and so on. Although objectively under the order of bmd-4m for the airborne forces, it would be possible to knock out bmp-3f for the MP. The problem is with the armored personnel carrier based on bmp-3. Welded on top of the armor removed the module called armored personnel carrier. Although there is an excellent modification of the Dragoons with a front engine. They removed the combat module and the armored personnel carrier is ready.
                      1. Blackgrifon
                        Blackgrifon 16 May 2017 18: 10
                        0
                        Quote: gallville
                        Yes, it's not even comme il faut. Octopus in armament and suo copy of the t-90. In the presence of t-90 why sv and mp octopus?

                        As I understand it, for the same purposes as the foil, but at least with some kind of armor and greater mobility. In fact, we can conclude that they wanted a light, cheap and mobile fire support vehicle with heavy weapons.
                        Quote: gallville
                        Permanent gestures with over-the-horizon landing of publications on the subject of efv for the mp of the Russian Federation and so on. Although objectively under the order of bmd-4m for the airborne forces, it would be possible to knock out bmp-3f for the MP.

                        In terms of over-horizon landing, the requirements are not at all clear. Our MPs have built their entire history for short-range throwing (the entire MT base, ships, equipment and training have been summed up for this), but the Airborne Forces have long since become an analog of the expeditionary forces. But as they used light armored vehicles (they didn’t have time to give them light tanks in the USSR), everything remained. Only now BMD-4M they began to arrive (but without a set of additional armor) and attached several T-72 companies (which, however, are inferior in strategic mobility to other units of the landing).

                        Quote: gallville
                        Honestly, I did not hear about serial modernization. I know there were proposals for installing a 57mm gun. But these are projects of the Russian Federation.

                        90 mm gun and communication devices. The gun, like, is Belgian. Modernization was carried out directly in Indonesia.

                        Quote: gallville
                        This is probably true for Western countries where they weigh about 70 tons. Soviet concept of tanks weighing less than 50t. eliminates all the advantages of a light tank.

                        Well, in the USSR, work on light tanks never stopped. They, at the end of the country's existence, wanted to saturate a couple of regiments and use these units as a highly mobile reserve. And by weight, because even the T-90MS has already jumped for 50 tons, and the T-14 is clearly superior to this mark. And not to mention the size of the car.
        2. Arkady Gaidar
          Arkady Gaidar 14 May 2017 13: 31
          0
          Tony! So medium tanks, with homogeneous armor, are waiting for such a fate of the “mass grave”. For modern weapons, their armor is not much stronger than that of the BMP-3.
          Even fascist Germany, during WWII, came to the conclusion that the main thing was not mobility, but powerful armor and a weapon. No matter how hard you try, you can’t overtake a projectile on wheels and tracks.
          So there are much more acute questions for the effective use of such “kaplans” than there are answers so far))
  3. Graz
    Graz 11 May 2017 08: 29
    +2
    It looks bulky for a medium tank, a good target with relatively weak armor,
    something I didn’t like his front end right away and the side projection would be so sandwiched there
    1. yehat
      yehat 11 May 2017 09: 20
      +3
      the tank, in my opinion, is not at all capable of somehow resisting the armor-piercing shells of more or less normal guns. Even the t-55 for him or cannon wheeled vehicles is a very dangerous opponent.
      I wonder how he keeps shelling anti-aircraft cannon systems.
      1. Pivot
        Pivot 11 May 2017 14: 42
        0
        This tank will go where T55 gets stuck. It’s a car for swamps, jungles and mountain trails, it’s silly to use it in a city or in an open area.
        1. yehat
          yehat 11 May 2017 14: 46
          0
          Are you sure it will pass? somehow not too hard to believe
          1. Pivot
            Pivot 11 May 2017 14: 57
            +2
            Light tanks are created for these purposes, I think it is unlikely that Asians consider themselves Merkava, and in Vietnam just such kids showed themselves to the full extent.
            1. yehat
              yehat 11 May 2017 15: 09
              0
              creation goals and the result does not always coincide)))
              1. Pivot
                Pivot 11 May 2017 15: 34
                0
                Well, I see that in a couple of photos you immediately appreciated the worthlessness of this machine, you need the National Interest, they also evaluate everything that is not NATO.
                1. yehat
                  yehat 12 May 2017 12: 38
                  0
                  what's wrong with that? if the tank has a reserved area of ​​2 times more than t54 and weighs 10 tons less, it is obvious that it will have 2-3 times less armor.
                  there is no need to be a special connoisseur
                  1. gallville
                    gallville 13 May 2017 22: 55
                    0
                    It weighs only 1 ton less (t-55 - 36 t, device 35 t.). Has a loading drum. So the reserved space is less. Theoretically should have armor above t-55. Another point is that in the T-55 the already shrunken volume of space is comparable with the Western approach. In general, the reservation is somewhere comparable with the t-55. But only the latter has a stock of mass growth. And the papelac is already made of a 20-ton BMP.
        2. gallville
          gallville 13 May 2017 22: 51
          0
          Quote: Pivot
          This tank will go where T55

          T-55 weighs 36 tons. This papelats 35t. So why does one get stuck the other doesn't? What prevents the t-55 from putting a modern engine and 105mm gun?
          1. Zaurbek
            Zaurbek 14 May 2017 09: 39
            0
            In Israel, they did just that ...
      2. k_ply
        k_ply 12 May 2017 11: 07
        0
        Quote: yehat
        Even the t-55 for him or cannon wheeled vehicles is a very dangerous opponent.

        Frankly, as for wheeled BMs, the length and height of the wheeled Ruikat and Centauro will be more. Protection is no better (Ruikat - from 7,62 mm BP, and from 23 mm BP - forehead; Centauro - from 12,7 mm BP round). And most importantly, their wheeled chassis is good for dry soils of South Africa, the Apennines and the Pyrenees. And how does wet tropical vegetation affect soil grip and handling - just try to ride a dense grass in your car after rain.
  4. k_ply
    k_ply 11 May 2017 11: 01
    +4
    Medium tank for the jungle of Indonesia and for export to countries with similar environmental conditions (South-East Asia, South America, Africa). Narrow enough. The main function is infantry fire support and ambush operations against enemy tanks. The armor (main + hinged panels) probably protects against fragments and bullets up to 12,7-14,5 mm, from 20-23 mm BP - frontal. The infantry RPG saturation is somewhat lower — not in each compartment, but at the company level, due to the predominance of rainforest and the difficult RPG firing through vegetation and tree trunks.
  5. gallville
    gallville 17 May 2017 08: 32
    0
    Blackgrifon,
    Quote: Blackgrifon

    As I understand it, for the same purposes as the foil, but at least with some kind of armor and greater mobility. In fact, we can conclude that they wanted a light, cheap and mobile fire support vehicle with heavy weapons.

    Well, an octopus yes, regularly in the Airborne Division, apparently they did not know where to push it. Since it is no different from the T-90 in Suo and firepower, this raises questions about how a tank without armor can fight a tank with armor. About the "cheapness" is also not about the octopus, sorry tank suo and the "jumping" chassis of the money is not small, if it does not change memory, it cost about 3-4 million. dol .. Yes, and fire support turned out "before the first RPG." In general, the device is not in cash.
    In the SV Fri division, if the memory is not changed from the s-ptrk battery (storm-s, chrysanthemum) and the rapier battery. The dubiousness of the venture is that a modern tank rapier is sewn only on board. As a result, the fire support division was formed from the division’s division, all the more with the adoption of thermobaric guns at the St. Petersburg region. Evolution in general.
    Quote: Blackgrifon
    In terms of over-horizon landing, the requirements are not at all clear. Our MPs have built their entire history for short-range throwing (the entire MT base, ships, equipment and training have been summed up for this), but the Airborne Forces have long since become an analog of the expeditionary forces. But as they used light armored vehicles (they didn’t have time to give them light tanks in the USSR), everything remained. Only now BMD-4M they began to arrive (but without a set of additional armor) and attached several T-72 companies (which, however, are inferior in strategic mobility to other units of the landing).

    According to MP, the circus is due to a comparison with the United States Commission. A completely different organization in structure and tasks. Plus the marketing moves of the "overhead landing." Firstly, the shore is in any case "cleaned up" Secondly, what difference does it make that a boat from a dvk lays 2-4 tanks, that a BDK lands 10 tanks. If the coastal PCR "looked through" will drown equally. Thirdly, there is no problem to land on "alien" shores. Their islands would be strengthened if necessary, but to help the allies if asked. Fourthly, I really want to land a fishing rod from the horizon and load BMP-3F into their chamois and dugongs. In general, the problem is not in technology, but in the heads.
    As regards the Airborne Forces, the question is being solved more or less less. The fact that they were given the t-72 is actually not new, but very well forgotten old =))) The fact is that the DShB (brigade) from the subordination of the SV was transferred to the Airborne Forces. There were always tanks from Afghanistan and they drive BMP by the way. Apparently the t-72s went there, there is just a regular company of tanks. According to the new time, they decided to expand to the battalion, which is generally correct. I’m more interested in what they will change BMP-2.
    On BMD-4m there are also many questions. I spoke on one of the forums so zamusunuyut. The fact is that pushing a combat module with vertically arranged 100mm OFS shells into a cardboard case is a little impractical. I hope it’s not necessary to explain why. The only good news is that they can not be charged. Then the question arises, why do we need a 100mm gun at all? :) Just in case, when it comes to it? And why then?
    In general, the “era” module (the one on the boomerang, armature, etc.) looks more reasonable for a cardboard machine. Remote control, saving space inside the car. Well, or a more modest modernization of "berezki" on the BMP-2 (cornet, ags).
    In general, there are a lot of questions for the BMD-4m as well as for the shell. It seems to me that the concept of quick transfer is more implemented in bmd-2 and btr-d. Due to the mass and dimensions of the machines. A heavy bmd-4m and a barn 2,5m high (like the t-72 by the way) shell in this concept fit like an elephant into a china shop. Moreover, the IL-76 carried a certain number of tons. it carries, and the increase in the mass of cars did not lead to an increase in security.
    Quote: Blackgrifon
    90 mm gun and communication devices. The gun, like, is Belgian. Modernization was carried out directly in Indonesia.

    Yes, I read, in the 90s they modernized. By the way, specifically in the troops they have 15 pieces. Well, both the concept and the platform are outdated.
    Quote: Blackgrifon
    Well, in the USSR, work on light tanks never stopped. They, at the end of the country's existence, wanted to saturate a couple of regiments and use these units as a highly mobile reserve. And by weight, because even the T-90MS has already jumped for 50 tons, and the T-14 is clearly superior to this mark. And not to mention the size of the car.

    Yes, maybe something was led. There is simply no need. To increase firepower, there are such wonderful tools as nona, vein, cloves. Yes, of course, their guns do not have high ballistics; on the other hand, they do not need it very much.
    Z.Y. some kind of glitch on the site is inconvenient to reply to messages. It sends to the beginning of the article, quotes immediately the entire message to which you give an answer.
  6. Type 63
    Type 63 26 November 2017 18: 19
    0
    Funny typewriter. We are waiting for when it goes to the series.