Losses of the USSR and Germany in the Second World War

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Losses of the USSR and Germany in the Second World War

Before embarking on explanations, statistics, etc., let's explain right away what is meant. This article discusses the losses suffered by the Red Army, Wehrmacht and troops of the Third Reich satellite countries, as well as the civilian population of the USSR and Germany, only in the period from 22.06.1941 until the end of hostilities in Europe (unfortunately, in the case of Germany it is almost impossible to execute) . The Soviet-Finnish war and the “liberation” campaign of the Red Army were deliberately excluded. The issue of losses of the USSR and Germany was repeatedly raised in the press, endless disputes are going on the Internet and on television, but researchers of this issue cannot come to a common denominator, because, as a rule, all arguments are reduced to emotional and politicized statements. This once again proves how painful this question is in the domestic stories. The purpose of the article is not to “clarify” the final truth in this matter, but to attempt to summarize the various data contained in disparate sources. The right to make a conclusion is given to the reader.

With all the diversity of literature and network resources about the Great Patriotic War, ideas about it are largely affected by a certain superficiality. The main reason for this is the ideology of this or that research or work, and it doesn’t matter whether it is a communist or anti-communist ideology. The interpretation of such a grand event in the light of any ideology is deliberately false.



It is especially bitter to read lately that the 1941 – 45 war. It was only a clash between two totalitarian regimes, where one, they say, quite corresponded to the other. We will try to look at this war from the point of view of the most justifiable - geopolitical.


Germany 30-s, with all its Nazi "features", directly and unswervingly continued the powerful desire for primacy in Europe, which for centuries determined the path of the German nation. Even the purely liberal German sociologist Max Weber wrote during World War 1: “... we, 70 million Germans ... are bound to be an empire. We must do this, even if we are afraid of losing. ” The roots of this aspiration of the Germans are rooted back centuries, as a rule, the Nazi’s appeal to medieval and even pagan Germany is interpreted as a purely ideological event, as the construction of a myth mobilizing the nation.

From my point of view, everything is more complicated: it was the Germanic tribes who created the empire of Charlemagne, later on the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation was formed on its foundation. And it was the “empire of the German nation” that created what is called the “European civilization” and began the aggressive policy of Europeans from the sacramental “Drang nach osten” - “onslaught to the east”, because half of the “native” German lands belonged to the 8 – 10 centuries Slavic tribes. Therefore, the assignment of the name “Barbarossa Plan” to the plan of war against the “barbarous” USSR is not a coincidence. This ideology of “primacy” of Germany as the fundamental force of the “European” civilization was the primary cause of the two world wars. And at the beginning of World War II, Germany was able to really (albeit briefly) accomplish her aspiration.

When invading a particular European country, the German troops met with amazing resistance and weakness in their weakness and indecision. Short-term fights of armies of the European countries with the German troops invading their borders, with the exception of Poland, were more likely the observance of a certain “custom” of war than actual resistance.

A great deal has been written about the blown European “resistance movement”, which would have allegedly inflicted tremendous damage on Germany and testified that Europe had flatly rejected its unification under German supremacy. But, with the exception of Yugoslavia, Albania, Poland and Greece, the scale of the Resistance is the same ideological myth. Undoubtedly, the regime established by Germany in the occupied countries did not suit the general population. In Germany itself, too, there was resistance to the regime, but in neither case was this the resistance of the country and the nation as a whole. For example, in the resistance movement in France for 5 years, 20 thousands of people died; For the same 5 years, about 50 thousands of French people who fought on the German side died, that is, 2,5 times more!


In Soviet times, the hyperbolization of the Resistance was introduced into the minds as a useful ideological myth, saying that the whole of Europe supported our struggle against Germany. In fact, as already mentioned, only 4 countries had a serious resistance to the invaders, which is explained by their “patriarchal nature”: they were alien not so much to the “German” order imposed by the Reich, but to the European, because these countries were not belonged to the European civilization (although geographically included in Europe).

Thus, by the year 1941, almost the entire continental Europe, one way or another, but without any particular upheaval, became part of the new empire with Germany at the head. Almost half of the existing two dozen European countries — Spain, Italy, Denmark, Norway, Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Finland, Croatia — together with Germany entered the war against the USSR, sending their armed forces to the Eastern Front (Denmark and Spain without formal announcement war). The rest of the European countries did not take part in military operations against the USSR, but somehow “worked” on Germany, or rather on the newly formed European Empire. The misconception about the events in Europe made us completely forget about many real events of that time. For example, Anglo-American troops commanded by Eisenhower in November 1942 in North Africa fought at first not with the Germans, but with the two hundred thousandth army of the French, despite a quick "victory" (Jean Darlan, due to the apparent superiority of the Allied forces, ordered the French troops to surrender) 584 Americans, British British 597 and French 1600 killed in the fighting. Of course, these are meager losses on the scale of the entire Second World War, but they show that the situation was somewhat more complicated than they usually think.

The Red Army in the battles on the Eastern Front captured half a million prisoners who are citizens of countries that seem not to have fought with the USSR! It may be objected that these are the “victims” of German violence, which has driven them into Russian expanses. But the Germans were not more stupid than us and they would hardly have allowed an unreliable contingent to the front. And while the next great and multinational army was victorious in Russia, Europe was, on the whole, on its side. Franz Halder, in his 30 diary, June 1941, wrote down Hitler's words: “European unity as a result of a joint war against Russia”. And Hitler quite correctly estimated the situation. In fact, the geopolitical goals of the war against the USSR were carried out not only by the Germans, but by 300 million Europeans united on various grounds - from forced submission to the desired cooperation - but, one way or another, acting jointly. Only by relying on continental Europe did the Germans mobilize 25% of the entire population into the army (for reference: the USSR mobilized 17% of its citizens). In short, the strength and technical equipment of the army that invaded the USSR was provided by tens of millions of skilled workers from all over Europe.


Why did I need such a long introduction? The answer is simple. Finally, one must realize that the USSR fought not only with the German Third Reich, but with almost all of Europe. Unfortunately, the eternal "Russophobia" of Europe was superimposed with the fear of the "creepy beast" - Bolshevism. Many volunteers from European countries who fought in Russia fought precisely with the alien communist ideology. No fewer of them were conscious haters of "inferior" Slavs infected with the plague of racial superiority. Modern German historian R. Ryurup writes:

"Many documents of the Third Reich imprinted the image of the enemy - Russian, deeply rooted in German history and society. Such views were characteristic even of officers and soldiers who were not convinced or enthusiastic Nazis. They (these soldiers and officers) also shared ideas about" the eternal struggle "of the Germans ... about the protection of European culture from the" Asian hordes ", the cultural vocation and the right to rule the Germans in the East. The image of an enemy of this type was widespread in Germany, he belonged to stam "".

And this geopolitical consciousness was not peculiar to the Germans, as such. After 22 June 1941, volunteer legions appear on the leash, later turning into SS divisions Nordland (Scandinavian), Langemark (Belgian-Flemish), Charlemagne (French). Guess where they defended "European civilization"? True, quite far from Western Europe, in Belarus, in Ukraine, in Russia. German professor K. Pfeffer wrote in 1953 year: “Most volunteers from Western Europe went to the Eastern Front because they saw this as a GENERAL task for the whole West ...” But with the forces of almost all of Europe, the USSR was destined to face, and not only Germany, and the clash was not “two totalitarianisms,” but a “civilized and progressive” Europe with a “barbaric state of subhumans” that had long frightened Europeans from the east.




1. USSR losses

According to official census 1939 of the year, 170 million people lived in the USSR - significantly more than in any other single European country. The entire population of Europe (without the USSR) was 400 million. By the beginning of World War II, the population of the Soviet Union differed from the population of future adversaries and allies with a high mortality rate and low life expectancy. However, a high birth rate ensured a significant increase in population (2% in 1938 – 39). Also, the difference from Europe was in the youth of the USSR population: the proportion of children younger than 15 was 35%. This feature allowed relatively quickly (in the 10 years) to restore the pre-war population. The share of the urban population was only 32% (for comparison: in the UK - more than 80%, in France - 50%, in Germany - 70%, in the USA - 60%, and only in Japan it had the same value as in THE USSR).

In 1939, the population of the USSR increased markedly after the new regions entered the country (Western Ukraine and Belarus, the Baltic States, Bukovina and Bessarabia), whose population ranged from 20 [1] to 22,5 [2] million. The total population of the USSR, according to the CSB certificate on 1 January 1941, was determined in 198 588 thousand people (including the RSFSR - 111 745 thousand people). According to modern estimates, it was still less, and on 1 June 41, it was 196,7 million people.

Population size of some countries in 1938 – 40

USSR - 170,6 (196,7) million people;
Germany - 77,4 million;
France - 40,1 million;
United Kingdom - 51,1 million;
Italy - 42,4 million;
Finland - 3,8 million;
USA - 132,1 million;
Japan - 71,9 million.

By 1940, the population of the Reich increased to 90 million, and taking into account the satellites and the conquered countries - 297 million. By December 1941, the USSR had lost 7% of the territory of the country where 74,5 million people lived before the start of the Second World War. This again emphasizes that despite the assurances of Hitler, the USSR had no advantage in human resources over the Third Reich.


For all the time of the Great Patriotic War in our country 34,5 million people wore military uniforms. This was about 70% of the total number of males aged 15 – 49 in 1941 years. The number of women in the Red Army was about 500 thousands. A higher percentage of those called up was only in Germany, but as we said earlier, the Germans covered the labor shortage at the expense of European workers and prisoners of war. In the USSR, such a deficit was covered by increased working hours and the widespread use of the labor of women, children and the elderly.

For a long time, the USSR did not speak about the direct irretrievable losses of the Red Army. In a private conversation, Marshal Konev in 1962 year named the number 10 million people [3], a famous defector - Colonel Kalinov, who fled to the West in 1949 year - 13,6 million people [4]. The figure in 10 million was published in the French version of the book “Wars and Population” by B. Ts. Urlanis, a famous Soviet demographer. The authors of the well-known monograph "The Vulture is lifted" (ed. G. Krivosheev) in 1993 year and in 2001 year published the number 8,7 million people, at the moment in most reference books it is indicated. But the authors themselves state that they do not include there: 500 ths. Of military service, called up for mobilization and captured by the enemy, but not enlisted in the lists of units and formations. Also, the almost completely dead militiamen of Moscow, Leningrad, Kiev and other major cities are not taken into account. Currently, the most complete lists of irretrievable losses of Soviet soldiers are 13,7 million people, but approximately 12-15% of records are repeated. According to the article “Dead Souls of the Great Patriotic War” (“NG”, 22.06.99), the historical and archival search center “Fate” of the association “War Memorials” has established that due to double and even triple counting, the number of dead warriors 43 and 2 The assault armies in the battles investigated by the center were inflated by 10-12%. Since these figures refer to the period when accounting for losses in the Red Army was not thorough enough, it can be assumed that in the whole war, due to double counting, the number of Red Army soldiers who died was overestimated by approximately 5 – 7%, i.e. by 0,2 – 0,4 million people


On the issue of prisoners. The American researcher A. Dallin according to German archive data estimates their number in 5,7 million. Of these, 3,8 million died in captivity, that is, 63% [5]. Russian historians estimate the number of captured Red Army soldiers in 4,6 million, of whom 2,9 million died. [6] Unlike German sources, this does not include civilians (for example, railroad workers), as well as seriously wounded left on the battlefield occupied by the enemy, and subsequently died from wounds or shot (around 470-500 ths. [7]). The position of prisoners of war was especially desperate in the first year of the war, when more than half of their total number was captured (2,8 million), on behalf of Re ha. Camps in the open air, hunger and cold, disease and lack of medicine, cruel treatment, mass executions of the sick and unable to work, and just all unwanted, first of all, commissars and Jews. Not coping with the flow of prisoners and guided by political and propaganda motives, the invaders in 1941 dismissed over 300 thousands of prisoners of war, mostly natives of western Ukraine and Belarus, to their homes. In the future, this practice was discontinued.

Also, do not forget that approximately 1 million prisoners of war were transferred from captivity to the auxiliary units of the Wehrmacht [8]. In many cases for the prisoners it was the only chance to survive. Again, most of these people, according to German data, at the first opportunity tried to desert from the units and formations of the Wehrmacht [9]. The local auxiliary forces of the German army stood out:

1) volunteer helpers (hiwi)
2) Service Order (ODI)
3) Front Auxiliary Parts (Noise)
4) police and defense teams (heme).

At the beginning of the 1943, the Wehrmacht acted: up to 400, thousand hivi, from 60 to 70, thousand odi, and 80, thousand in the eastern battalions.

Some of the prisoners of war and the population of the occupied territories made a conscious choice in favor of cooperation with the Germans. So, in the SS division "Galicia" on 13 000 "places" were 82 000 volunteers. More than 100 thousand Latvians, 36 thousand Lithuanians and 10 thousand Estonians served in the German army, mainly in the SS forces.

In addition, several million people from the occupied territories were hijacked for forced labor in the Reich. ChGK (Emergency State Commission) immediately after the war estimated their number at 4,259 million. Later studies give a figure of 5,45 million, of whom 850-1000 thousand died.

Estimates of direct physical extermination of the civilian population, according to CPG data from 1946.

RSFSR - 706 thous.
USSR - 3256,2 thousand people.
BSSR - 1547 thousand people.
Lit. SSR - 437,5 thous.
Lat SSR - 313,8 thous.
Est. SSR - 61,3 thous.
Mold SSR - 61 thous.
Karelo-Fin. SSR - 8 thous. (10)

Such high figures for Lithuania and Latvia are explained by the fact that there were death camps and concentration camps for prisoners of war there. Huge were the loss of population in the front line during the fighting. However, it is virtually impossible to determine them. The minimum allowable value is the number of people who died in besieged Leningrad, that is, 800 thousand people. In 1942, the infant mortality rate in Leningrad reached 74,8%, that is, about 100 babies died from 75 babies!


Another important question. How many former Soviet citizens after the end of the Great Patriotic War chose not to return to the USSR? According to Soviet archival data, the number of "second emigration" was 620 thousand people. 170 000 - Germans, Bessarabians and Bukovina, 150 000 - Ukrainians, 109 000 - Latvians, 230 000 - Estonians and Lithuanians, and only 32 000 Russians [11]. Today this estimate seems to be clearly undervalued. According to modern data, emigration from the USSR amounted to 1,3 million. This gives us a difference of almost 700 thousand, previously referred to as permanent population loss [12].

So, what are the losses of the Red Army, the civilian population of the USSR and the general demographic losses in the Great Patriotic War. For twenty years, the main estimate was “pulled” by N. Khrushchev’s figure 20 million people. In 1990, as a result of the work of the special commission of the General Staff and the State Statistics Committee of the USSR, a more reasonable estimate appears in 26,6 million. At the moment it is official. Attention is drawn to the fact that even in 1948, the American sociologist Timashev gave an estimate of the losses of the USSR in the war, which almost coincided with the estimate of the commission of the General Staff. Also, the estimate of Maksudov made by him in 1977 year coincides with the data of the Krivosheev Commission. According to the Commission G. G. Krivosheev [13].



So let's summarize:

Postwar assessment of Red Army casualties: 7 million.
Timashev: Red Army - 12,2 mln. People, civilians 14,2 mln. People, direct human losses 26,4 mln. People, general demographic 37,3 mln. [14]
Arntz and Khrushchev: Human Direct: 20 million people [15]
Biraben and Solzhenitsyn: Red Army 20 million, civilian population 22,6 million, direct human 42,6 million, general demographic 62,9 million [16]
Maksudov: Red Army - 11,8 million people, civilian population 12,7 million people, direct human losses 24, 5 million people It is impossible not to say that S. Maksudov (A. P. Babenyshev, Harvard University, USA) the spacecraft determined the combat losses of the spacecraft at 8,8 million [17]
Rybakovsky: direct human 30 million [18]
Andreev, Darskiy, Kharkov (General Staff, Krivosheev Commission): direct combat losses of the Red Army 8,7 million (11, 994 including prisoners of war) pers. The civilian population (including prisoners of war) 17,9 million people. Direct casualties 26,6 million [19]
B. Sokolov: Red Army losses - 26 million [20]
M. Harrison: total losses of the USSR - 23,9 - 25,8 million.

What do we have in the "dry" residue? We will be guided by simple logic.

The estimate of the losses of the Red Army, given in 1947 year (7 million) is not credible, because not all calculations, even with the imperfection of the Soviet system, were completed.

Khrushchev's assessment is also not confirmed. On the other hand, the “Solzhenitsynsky” 20 million people are just as unjustified as losses of the army or even 44 million (without denying A. Solzhenitsyn’s talent as a writer, all the facts and figures in his works are not confirmed by a single document and understand where he comes from took - impossible).

Boris Sokolov is trying to convince us that the loss of only the armed forces of the USSR amounted to 26 million. He is guided by the indirect method of calculation. The losses of the officers of the Red Army are fairly well known, according to Sokolov, these are 784 thousand people (1941 – 44) Mr. Sokolov, referring to the average statistical losses of Wehrmacht officers on the Eastern front of 62500 people (1941 – 44), and Muller-Hillebrant data , displays the ratio of the losses of the officer corps to the ordinary composition of the Wehrmacht, as 1: 25, that is, 4%. And, without a doubt, extrapolates this technique to the Red Army, receiving its 26 millions of irretrievable losses. However, such an approach on closer examination turns out to be initially false. Firstly, 4% officers losses are not the upper limit, for example, in the Polish campaign the Wehrmacht lost 12% officers to total losses of the Armed Forces. Secondly, Mr. Sokolov would be well aware that with the staff size of the German infantry regiment in 3049 there were officers in it, there were 75 people, that is, 2,5%. And in the Soviet infantry regiment with the number of 1582 man - officers 159 man, ie, 10%. Third, appealing to the Wehrmacht, Sokolov forgets that the more combat experience in the troops, the less loss among the officers. In the Polish campaign, the losses of the German officers were −12%, in the French - 7%, and on the Eastern Front already 4%.

The same can be applied to the Red Army: if at the end of the war the losses of officers (not according to Sokolov, but according to statistics) were 8-9%, then at the beginning of the Second World War they could be 24%. It turns out, like a schizophrenic, everything is logical and correct, only the initial premise is incorrect. Why did we dwell on Sokolov’s theory in such detail? Yes, because Mr. Sokolov very often presents his figures in the media.

In view of the above, by discarding the obviously underestimated and overestimated loss estimates, we get: The Krivosheev Commission - 8,7 million people (with 11,994 million prisoners of war 2001 data), Maksudov - the losses are even slightly lower than the official ones - 11,8 million people. (1977 −93 years), Timashev - 12,2 million people. (1948). This can also be attributed to the opinion of M. Harrison, at the level of total losses indicated to them, the losses of the army must fit into this gap. These data were obtained by various calculation methods, since both Timashev and Maksudov, respectively, did not have access to the archives of the USSR and Russia. It seems that the losses of the USSR Armed Forces in the Great Patriotic War lie very close to such a "heap" group of results. Let's not forget that these figures include 2,6 – 3,2 million Soviet prisoners of war destroyed.


In conclusion, we should probably agree with the opinion of Maksudov that the number of losses should exclude the emigration outflow, which amounted to 1,3 million, which was not taken into account in the study of the General Staff. At this value, and should reduce the loss of the USSR in the Second World War. In percentage terms, the loss structure of the USSR looks like this:

41% - aircraft losses (including prisoners of war)
35% - aircraft losses (without prisoners of war, i.e. direct combat)
39% - population losses in the occupied territories and front-line (45% with prisoners of war)
8% - population of the rear
6% - GULAG
6% - emigration outflow.



2. Losses Wehrmacht and SS troops

To date, there are no sufficiently reliable figures for the losses of the German army obtained by direct statistical calculation. This is due to the lack of reliable source statistics on German losses for various reasons.


The picture regarding the number of Wehrmacht prisoners of war on the Soviet-German front is more or less clear. According to Russian sources, Soviet troops captured 3 172 300 soldiers of the Wehrmacht, of which German 2388443 [21] was in the NKVD camps. According to German historians, in the Soviet prisoner of war camps only German soldiers were about 3,1 million [22]. The discrepancy, as you can see, is approximately in 0,7 million. This discrepancy is explained by differences in the estimate of the number of Germans killed in captivity: according to Russian archival documents, Soviet 356 700 Germans died in Soviet captivity, and according to German researchers, about 1,1 million people. It seems that the Russian figure of Germans killed in captivity is more reliable, and the missing 0,7 million of missing Germans and those who did not return from captivity actually died not in captivity, but on the battlefield.


The vast majority of publications devoted to the calculations of combat demographic losses of the Wehrmacht and the SS troops, are based on data from the central bureau (department) of accounting for the losses of the personnel of the armed forces that are part of the German General Staff of the High Command. Moreover, refusing the authenticity of Soviet statistics, the German data are regarded as absolutely reliable. But upon closer examination, it turned out that the opinion of the high reliability of information from this department was greatly exaggerated. Thus, the German historian R. Overmans in the article “The human sacrifices of the Second World War in Germany” concluded that “... the channels for receiving information in the Wehrmacht do not reveal the degree of reliability that some authors attribute to them”. As an example, he reports that “... the service report of the losses department at the Wehrmacht headquarters, relating to 1944, documented that the losses incurred during the Polish, French and Norwegian campaigns and which revealed no technical difficulties twice as high as originally reported. ” According to Müller-Hillebrand, which many researchers believe, the Wehrmacht’s demographic losses were 3,2 million. Another 0,8 million died in captivity [23]. However, according to a certificate from the organizational unit of the OKH from 1 in May 1945, only ground forces, including SS troops (without the Air Force and Navy), for the period from September 1 1939 to May 1 1945 lost 4 million 617,0 thousand people. This is the most recent report on the losses of the Armed Forces of Germany [24]. In addition, since mid-April 1945, there has been no centralized recording of losses. And since the beginning of 1945, the data is incomplete. The fact remains that in one of the latest radio programs with his participation, Hitler announced the figure in 12,5 million of the total losses of the German Armed Forces, of which 6,7 million is irrevocable, which is approximately two times higher than Muller-Hillebrand's data. It was in March 1945 of the year. I do not think that in two months the soldiers of the Red Army did not kill a single German.

In general, the information of the losses department of the Wehrmacht cannot serve as the initial data for calculating the losses of the German Armed Forces in the Great Patriotic War.


There is another loss statistics - the statistics of the burials of Wehrmacht soldiers. According to the annex to the law of Germany "On the preservation of burial sites", the total number of German soldiers stationed in fixed burials in the territory of the Soviet Union and Eastern European countries is 3 million 226 thousand people. (in the territory of the USSR only - 2 330 000 burials). This figure can be taken as a baseline for calculating the demographic losses of the Wehrmacht, however, it also needs to be adjusted.

First, this figure takes into account only the burial of the Germans, and a large number of soldiers of other nationalities fought as part of the Wehrmacht: Austrians (of whom 270 killed thousands of people), Sudeten Germans and Alsatians (killed thousands of people) and representatives of other nationalities and states (killed 230 thousand people.). Of the total number of dead soldiers of the Wehrmacht of non-German nationality, the share of the Soviet-German front is 357-75%, i.e. 80 – 0,6 million people.

Secondly, this figure refers to the beginning of the 90s of the last century. Since then, the search for German burials in Russia, the CIS countries and the countries of Eastern Europe has continued. And appearing on this topic messages were not sufficiently informative. For example, the Russian Association of Military Memorials, established in 1992, reported that during the 10 years of its existence, the German Union for the Care of Military Graves gave information about the graves of 400 to thousands of Wehrmacht soldiers. However, whether it was newly discovered burials or whether they are already taken into account in the 3 million figure. 226 thousand is unclear. Unfortunately, the generalized statistics of the newly discovered burial places of the Wehrmacht soldiers could not be found. Tentatively, it can be assumed that the number of burials of Wehrmacht soldiers newly discovered over the last 10 years is within 0,2 – 0,4 million people.

Thirdly, many graves of dead Wehrmacht soldiers on Soviet soil disappeared or were deliberately destroyed. Approximately in such disappeared and nameless graves 0,4 – 0,6 million Wehrmacht soldiers could be buried.

Fourthly, these data do not include the graves of German soldiers killed in battles with Soviet troops in Germany and in Western European countries. According to R. Overmans, only for the last three spring months of the war, about 1 million people died. (minimum estimate of 700 thousand). In general, approximately 1,2 – 1,5 million Wehrmacht soldiers were killed in the battles with the Red Army on German soil and in Western European countries.

Finally, in the fifth, the Wehrmacht soldiers who died a “natural” death were among those buried (0,1 – 0,2 million)


The articles of Major-General V. Gurkin are devoted to assessing the losses of the Wehrmacht using the balance of the German armed forces during the war years. Its calculated figures are given in the second column of the table. 4. Here, attention is drawn to the two figures describing the number mobilized in the Wehrmacht during the war, and the number of prisoners of war of the Wehrmacht. The number of people mobilized during the war years (17,9 million) was taken from the book by B. Muller-Hillebrand “Land Army of Germany 1933 – 1945”, t.Z. At the same time, V.P. Bokhar believes that the Wehrmacht was called up more - 19 million.

The number of Wehrmacht prisoners of war was determined by V. Gurkin by summing up prisoners of war taken by the Red Army (3,178 million) and Allied forces (4,209 million) before 9 in May 1945. In my opinion, this number is too high: prisoners of war who were not Wehrmacht soldiers were included in it. In the book Paul Karelia and punter Beddekera "German prisoners of World War II," he says: "... In June 1945, the Joint Command of the Allies learned that" the camps is 7 614 794 prisoners and unarmed persons of military personnel, including 4 209 000 the time capitulations were already in captivity. ”Among these 4,2 million German prisoners of war, besides Wehrmacht soldiers, there were many others. For example, in the French camp Vitril-Francois, among the prisoners“ the youngest was 15 years old, the oldest was almost 70 ”. The authors write about the prisoners of folklore, about the organization of special “children's” camps by the Americans, where twelve-thirteen-year-old boys from the “Hitler Youth” and “Werewolf” were taken prisoner. Mention is made of even people with disabilities in the camps. Map »No. 1, 1992) Heinrich Schippmann noted:


“It should be taken into account that not only Wehrmacht soldiers or SS troops, but also air force personnel, members of the Volkssturm or paramilitary unions (the organization“ Todt ”,“ Service Reich Labor ”, etc.). Among them were not only men, but also women - and not only Germans, but also the so-called“ Volksdeutsch ”and“ aliens ”- Croats, Serbs, Cossacks, North and West Europeans, who in any way fought on the side of the German Wehrmacht or ranked it . In addition, during the occupation of Germany in the year 1945 arrested anyone who was in uniform, even if it was about the chief of the railway station. "

In general, among the 4,2 million prisoners of war taken by the allies before 9 in May 1945, approximately 20 −25% were not Wehrmacht soldiers. This means that the Allies were in captivity of 3,1 – 3,3 million Wehrmacht soldiers.

The total number of Wehrmacht soldiers captured before the surrender was 6,3 – 6,5 million.



In general, the demographic combat losses of the Wehrmacht and the SS troops on the Soviet-German front are 5,2 – 6,3 million people, of which 0,36 million died in captivity, and the irretrievable loss (including prisoners) of 8,2 – 9,1 million people. Also, it should be noted that, until recent years, domestic historiography did not mention some data on the number of Wehrmacht prisoners of war at the end of hostilities in Europe, apparently for ideological reasons, because it is much more pleasant to assume that Europe was “fighting” fascism, than to be aware of that some and a very large number of Europeans deliberately fought in the Wehrmacht. So, according to a note by General Antonov, on 25 May 1945. The Red Army captured 5 million 20 thousand only Wehrmacht soldiers, of which until August 600 thousand people were released (Austrians, Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenes, Poles, etc.) and these prisoners of war were sent to camps NKVD not sent. Thus, the Wehrmacht’s irretrievable losses in the battles with the Red Army can be even higher (on the order of 0,6 - 0,8 million. Persons).

There is another way to "calculate" the losses of Germany and the Third Reich in the war against the USSR. Quite correct by the way. We will try to “substitute” figures relating to Germany in the methodology for calculating the total demographic losses of the USSR. And we will use ONLY the official data of the German side. So, the population of Germany at 1939 was the year according to Müller-Hillebrandt (p. 700 of his work, so beloved by supporters of the theory of “flooding with corpses”) 80,6 million people. At the same time, we, the reader, should take into account that 6,76 million Austrians are included here, and the population of the Sudetenland - another 3,64 million people. That is, the population of Germany itself within the boundaries of 1933 of the year for 1939 was (80,6 - 6,76 - 3,64) 70,2 million people. With these simple mathematical operations sorted out. Further: the natural mortality in the USSR was 1,5% per year, but in the countries of Western Europe, the mortality was much lower and was 0,6 - 0,8% per year, Germany was not an exception. However, the birth rate in the USSR was about the same proportion as the European one, due to which the USSR had consistently high population growth in all the pre-war years, beginning in 1934.


We know about the results of the post-war population census in the USSR, but few know that a similar census was conducted by the Allied occupation authorities on October 29 1946 in Germany. The census gave the following results:

Soviet occupation zone (without the east of Berlin): men - 7, 419 million, women - 9,914 million, total: 17,333 million people.

All western zones of occupation (without West Berlin): men - 20,614 million, women - 24,804 million, total: 45,418 million people.

Berlin (all sectors of occupation), men - 1,29 million, women - 1,89 million, total: 3,18 million.

The total population of Germany is 65? 931? 000 people. The purely arithmetic action of 70,2 million - 66 million seems to be reducing all 4,2 million. However, things are not so simple.

At the time of the census in the USSR, the number of children born since the beginning of 1941, was about 11 million, the birth rate in the USSR during the war years fell sharply and was only 1,37% per year of the pre-war population. The birth rate in Germany and in peacetime did not exceed 2% per year of the population. Suppose she fell just 2 times, and not in 3, as in the USSR. That is, the natural increase in population during the war years and the first post-war year was about 5% of the pre-war number, and in numbers was 3,5 – 3,8 million children. This figure must be added to the total figure of the decline in the population of Germany. Now the arithmetic is different: the total population decline is 4,2 million. + 3,5 million. = 7,7 million. But this is not the final figure; to complete the calculations, we need to take away from the population decline figures the natural death rate during the war years and 1946 year, which is 2,8 million people (take the number 0,8% to be “higher”). Now the total decline in Germany’s population caused by the war is 4,9 million. That, in general, is very "similar" to the number of irretrievable losses of the Reich ground forces, cited by Muller-Gillebrandt. So what did the USSR, having lost millions of its citizens in the war of 26,6, really “flunked the corpses” of its adversary? Patience, dear reader, let's bring our calculations to its logical conclusion.

The fact is that the population of Germany itself grew in 1946, at least by at least 6,5 million, and presumably even by 8 million! By the time of the census 1946 of the year (according to German, by the way, the data of the Union of the Expelled published in 1996 year, only about 15 million Germans were “forcibly moved”) only from Sudetenland, Poznan and Upper Silesia were evicted to Germany 6,5 million Germans. Around 1 - 1,5 million Germans fled from Alsace and Lorraine (unfortunately, there is no more accurate data). That is, these 6,5 - 8 million are to be added to the losses of Germany itself. And these are already “slightly” other numbers: 4,9 million + 7,25 million (arithmetic average of the number of Germans ’expelled to their homeland) = 12,15 million. Actually, this is 17,3% (!) Of the German population in 1939. Well, that's not all!


Once again I will emphasize: The Third Reich is not even Germany at all! By the time of the attack on the USSR, the Third Reich “officially” included: Germany (70,2 million), Austria (6,76 million), the Sudetes (3,64 million) seized from the Baltic Corridor from Poland, Poznan and Upper Silesia (9,36 million), Luxembourg, Lorraine and Alsace (2,2 million), and Upper Corinthia cut off from Yugoslavia, total 92,16 million.

These are all the territories that were officially incorporated into the Reich, and whose inhabitants were subject to conscription in the Wehrmacht. “The imperial protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia” and the “Governor-General of Poland” will not be taken into account here (although ethnic Germans were called in to the Wehrmacht from these territories). And ALL of these territories remained under the control of the Nazis until the beginning of 1945. Now we get the “final settlement” if we take into account that Austria’s losses are known to us and make up 300.000 people, that is, 4,43% of the country's population (which in%, of course, is much less than in Germany). That will not be a big “tightness” to assume that the population of the other regions of the Reich suffered the same losses as a result of the war in percentage terms, which would give us another 673? 000 people. As a result, the total human losses of the Third Reich are 12,15 million. + 0,3 million. + 0.6 million. = 13,05 million people. This “tsiferka” is already more like the truth. Taking into account the fact that these losses included 0,5 - 0.75 million civilians who died (and not 3,5 million), we get losses of the Third Reich Sun equal to 12,3 million irrevocably. If we take into account that even the Germans recognize the loss of their Armed Forces in the East in 75-80% of all losses on all fronts, then the Reich forces lost about 9,2 million (75% of 12,3 million) in the battles with the Red Army irretrievably. Of course, not all of them were killed, but with the data on the released (2,35 million), as well as prisoners of war (0.38 million) who died in captivity, you can rather accurately say that they were actually killed and died from wounds and in captivity, as well as missing without a message, but not captured (read "killed", and this is 0,7 million!), the Sun of the Third Reich lost about 5,6-6 million people during the march to the East. According to these calculations, the irretrievable losses of the Armed Forces of the USSR and the Third Reich (without allies) are related as 1,3: 1, and the military losses of the Red Army (data from the team led by Krivosheev) and the Reich Sun as 1,6: 1.

The procedure for calculating the total casualties of Germany

Population in 1939 70,2 million people.
Population in 1946 65,93 million people.
Natural mortality 2,8 million.
Natural increase (fertility) 3,5 million.
Emigration inflow 7,25 million.
Total loss {(70,2 - 65,93 - 2,8) + 3,5 + 7,25 = 12,22} 12,15 million people.

Every tenth German was killed! Every twelfth was captured !!!


Conclusion
In this article, the author does not claim to seek out the "golden section" and "truth in the last resort." The data provided in it are available in the scientific literature and the network. Just all of them are scattered and scattered across various sources. The author expresses his personal opinion: you can’t believe the German and Soviet sources during the war, because their losses are at least 2 – 3 times, the enemy’s losses are exaggerated by the same 2 – 3 times. All the more strange that German sources, unlike Soviet ones, are recognized as quite “reliable”, although, as the simplest analysis shows, this is not so.

The irrevocable losses of the USSR Armed Forces in the Second World War constitute 11,5 - 12,0 million people irrevocably, with the actual combat demographic losses in 8,7 – 9,3 million people. The losses of the Wehrmacht and the SS troops on the Eastern Front are 8,0 - 8,9 million people irrevocably, of which purely combat demographic 5,2 – 6,1 million (including those who died in captivity) people. Plus, the losses of the German Armed Forces on the Eastern Front need to add the losses of satellite countries, and this is neither more nor less than 850 thousand (including dead in captivity) people killed and more than 600 thousand prisoners. Total 12,0 (the greatest number) million vs. 9,05 (the smallest number) million people

The logical question is: where is the "filling up with corpses," about which Western, and now domestic, "open" and "democratic" sources speak so much? The percentage of dead Soviet prisoners of war, even by the most benign estimates, is no less than 55%, and the German, by the largest, no more than 23%. Perhaps the whole difference in casualties is due simply to the inhuman conditions of prisoners?

The author is aware that these articles are different from the last officially announced version of the loss: the losses of the USSR Armed Forces - 6,8 million soldiers killed and 4,4 million captured and missing, the losses of Germany - 4,046 million soldiers killed, died from wounds, missing (including 442,1 thous. dead in captivity), loss of satellite countries 806 thous. killed and 662 thous. prisoners. The irretrievable loss of the armies of the USSR and Germany (including prisoners of war) - 11,5 million and 8,6 million people. Germany's total loss 11,2 million. (for example in Wikipedia)

The issue with the civilian population is more terrible against 14,4 (the smallest number) million people of the victims of the Great Patriotic War in the USSR - 3,2 million people (the largest number) victims from the German side. So who fought and with whom? It is also necessary to mention that without denying the Holocaust of the Jews, the German society still does not perceive the “Slavic” Holocaust, if everything (thousands of works) is known about the sufferings of the Jewish people in the West, then they prefer to “modestly” keep quiet about crimes against the Slavic peoples. The non-participation of our researchers, for example, in the all-German “dispute of historians” only aggravates this situation.

I would like to finish the article with the phrase of an unknown British officer. When he saw a convoy of Soviet prisoners of war, who were being driven past the “international” camp, he said: “I forgive the Russians in advance for what they will do with Germany.”

The article was written in 2007 year. Since then, the author has not changed his opinion. That is, there was no “stupid” collapse of corpses on the part of the Red Army, however, as well as a special numerical superiority. This is proved by the emergence, in recent times, of a large stratum of the Russian oral history, that is, the memoirs of the rank-and-file WWII participants. For example, Electron Priklonsky, the author of the “Samokhodik’s Diary,” mentions that during the entire war he saw two “fields of death”: when our troops attacked in the Baltic States and when they fell under the flanking fire of machine guns, and when Germans broke through the Korsun-Shevchenko boiler. An example of a single, but nonetheless valuable because the diary of the wartime, and therefore quite objective.

Recently, the author of the article came across (materials of the Duel newspaper edited by Y. Mukhin) on a curious table, the conclusion is controversial (although it corresponds to the views of the author), but an interesting approach to the problem of losses in the Second World War:

Estimation of the loss ratio by the results of a comparative analysis of losses in wars of the last two centuries

The application of the comparative analysis method, the foundation of which was laid by Zhomini, to the assessment of the ratio of losses requires statistical data on wars of different eras. Unfortunately, more or less complete statistics are available only for the wars of the last two centuries. Data on the irretrievable combat losses in the wars of the XIX and XX centuries, summarized by the results of the work of domestic and foreign historians, are given in Table. The last three columns of the table demonstrate the obvious dependence of the outcome of the war on the relative losses (losses, expressed as a percentage of the total army) - the relative losses of the victor in the war are always less than those of the vanquished, and this dependence has a steady, repetitive character (it is fair for all kinds of wars), i.e., has all the features of the law.


This law - let's call it the law of relative losses - can be formulated as follows: in any war, the victory goes to the army with less relative losses.

Note that the absolute numbers of irretrievable losses for the winning side can be either less (World War 1812, Russian-Turkish, Franco-Prussian wars), or more than the defeated side (Crimean, World War I, Soviet-Finnish) , but the relative loss of the winner is always less than that of the loser.

The difference between the relative losses of the winner and the vanquished characterizes the degree of persuasiveness of victory. Wars with close values ​​of the relative losses of the parties end in peace treaties while preserving the defeated side of the existing political system and the army (for example, the Russian-Japanese war). In wars ending, like the Great Patriotic War, by the complete surrender of the enemy (Napoleonic wars, the Franco-Prussian war 1870 – 1871), the relative losses of the winner are substantially less than the relative losses of the defeated (by no less than 30%). In other words, the greater the loss, the greater must be the size of the army in order to win a convincing victory. If the loss of the army in 2 times more than the enemy, then to win the war, its number must be at least 2,6 times the number of the opposing army.

And now we will return to the Great Patriotic War and see what kind of human resources the USSR and fascist Germany had during the war. Available data on the strengths of the opposing sides on the Soviet-German front are given in Table. 6.


From tab. 6 follows that the number of Soviet participants in the war was only 1,4 – 1,5 times the total number of opposing troops and 1,6 – 1,8 times the regular German army. In accordance with the law of relative losses with such an excess of the number of participants in the war, the losses of the Red Army, which destroyed the fascist military machine, in principle could not exceed the losses of the armies of the fascist bloc by more than 10-15%, and the losses of regular German troops - by more than 25-30 % This means that the upper limit of the ratio of irretrievable combat losses of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht is the ratio 1,3: 1.

The figures for the ratio of irretrievable combat losses are given in Table. 6, do not exceed the upper limit of the loss ratio obtained above. This, however, does not mean that they are final and not subject to change. As new documents, statistical materials, research results of the loss figures of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht (Table 1-5) can be refined, changed in one direction or another, their ratio can also change, but it can not be higher than the 1,3: 1 .

Sources:
1. The Central Statistical Bureau of the USSR "The size, composition and movement of the population of the USSR" M 1965,
2. "The population of Russia in the 20 century" M. 2001
3. Arntts "Human casualties in the Second World War" M. 1957
4. Frumkin G. Population Changes in Europe since 1939 NY 1951
5. Dallin A. German rule in Russia 1941 – 1945 NY — London 1957
6. "Russia and the USSR in the 20 Wars of the Century" M.2001
7. Polyan P. The victims of the two dictatorships M. 1996.
8. Thorwald J. The Illusion. Soviet soldiers in Hitler, s Army NY 1975
9. Collection of messages of the State Extraordinary Commission M. 1946
10. Zemskov. Birth of the second emigration 1944 – 1952 SI 1991 No. 4
11. Timasheff NS The postwar population of the Soviet Union 1948
13 Timasheff NS The postwar population of the Soviet Union 1948
14. Arntz Casualties in World War II M. 1957; International Life 1961 No. 12
15. Biraben JN Population 1976.
16. Maksudov S.. The loss of the population of the USSR Benson (Vt) 1989 .; "On the front losses of the SA during the Second World War" "Free Thought" 1993. No. 10
17. The population of the USSR for 70 years. Edited by Rybakovsky L. L. M 1988
18. Andreev, Darskiy, Kharkov. “Population of the Soviet Union 1922 – 1991” M 1993
19. Sokolov B. “Novaya Gazeta” No. 22, 2005, “Price of Victory -” M. 1991.
20. “The German War against the Soviet Union 1941-1945” edited by Reinhard Ryurup 1991. Berlin
21. Muller-Hillebrand. "Land Army of Germany 1933-1945" M.1998
22. “The German War against the Soviet Union 1941-1945” edited by Reinhard Ryurup 1991. Berlin
23. V. Gurkin. On the human losses on the Soviet-German front 1941 – 45. Nini No. 3 1992
24. M. B. Denisenko. WWII in the demographic dimension "Eksmo" 2005
25. S. Maksudov. The loss of the population of the USSR during the Second World War. "Population and Society" 1995
26. Y. Mukhin. If not for the generals. Yauza 2006
27. V. Kozhinov. The great war of Russia. The lecture series 1000 anniversary of the Russian Wars. Yauza 2005
28. Materials of the newspaper "Duel"
29. E. Beevor “The Fall of Berlin” M.2003

Related Literature:
G. Krivosheev “Russia and the USSR in the wars of the twentieth century. Loss Book


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  1. The comment was deleted.
  2. +2
    December 4 2022
    Looked at the list of used literature. There is a certain newspaper "Duel", but for some reason there is no 12-volume publication "The Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945" from the RF Ministry of Defense. Probably too many volumes...
    1. +18
      December 4 2022
      Quote: Amateur
      but for some reason there is no 12-volume edition of the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945 from the RF Ministry of Defense.

      Please tell me exactly what data from the recommended twelve-volume edition is missing in the article. You, as I understand it, have read all 12 volumes.
      1. +6
        December 4 2022
        Regarding these landmark publications, back in 2017, Monsieur Shpakovsky posted an article here. Least. And regardless of the attitude towards him, it is difficult to argue with him at this moment. And, taking into account the experience of life in this country, when it was still another country, and, esssno, after - there is no need. With all the ambiguity and vagueness of the topic of losses, those works are needed as a fish of the OZK ......
      2. -1
        December 5 2022
        The ACS specialists said that if "information garbage" is poured into the input of the system, then there will also be garbage at the output.
      3. 0
        December 9 2022
        Well, the most important thing in this article
        It is also necessary to mention that without denying the Holocaust of the Jews, the German society still does not perceive the "Slavic" Holocaust, if everything is known about the suffering of the Jewish people in the West (thousands of works), then they prefer to "modestly" keep quiet about the crimes against the Slavic peoples.
        Well, for starters, the Russian genocide has long been exaggerated, but at the same time we recognize the deportation of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire as genocide. So first you need to stop lying to yourself and apply double standards.
        Recognize the deportation of the peoples of the Crimea of ​​the North Caucasus within the country officially as genocide, and then you can, with a clear conscience, call what was happening in the Russians also a genocide. In the meantime, hypocrisy from both oldies (Germany, Russia) and they will always spoof and point a finger that you are no better than them
        I am against the recognition of the deportation of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire as genocide, but I also do not support the fact that the deportation of the Crimean Tatars is genocide, although I belong to the Tatar people. Deportation was a cleansing of the territory for the transfer of Crimea to Ukraine. The most severe trials fell on the shoulders of the peoples of the North Caucasus, simply not because that's who was treated cruelly
    2. +3
      December 4 2022
      And mention the same Paul Karel as a source

      He was a leading official and functionary of Nazi propaganda in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Nazi Germany, press attaché of Foreign Minister Ribbentrop, an SS officer with the rank of Obersturmbannführer.

      His books are more fictional than real.
    3. -4
      December 4 2022
      [/ Quote] The total population of the USSR, according to the certificate of the Central Statistical Bureau as of January 1, 1941, was determined at 198 thousand people (including the RSFSR - 588 thousand people). According to modern estimates, it was still less, and by 111 June 745 was 1 million people. [quote]

      These are some "modern" estimates, revealed postscripts in the then registry offices and the State Planning Commission for 4 million people. ?
      The population of the USSR as of 01.07.41/199,92/196,7 is XNUMX million people. And not some XNUMX million there.
      We add 4 million. to 26,4 million losses and we get a figure of about 30,5 million people, real, and not underestimated by manipulation, lost people.
      If we accept as truth, the lost "peaceful" in 14,2 million people, then the military personnel were lost about 16,5 million people.
      1. +5
        December 4 2022
        Quote: Jura 27
        The population of the USSR as of 01.07.41/199,92/196,7 is XNUMX million people. And not some XNUMX million there.

        The population of the USSR, according to the revealed falsifications of the ADC commission, was only 1.7.1941 people as of 193/667/000, and not 196 and certainly not 713!

        Quote: Jura 27
        We add 4 million. to 26,4 million losses and we get a figure of about 30,5 million people, real, and not underestimated by manipulation, lost people.

        Real losses are 17, of which:
        11 - all military losses of the USSR (811 soldiers of the Red Army and NKVD troops; 100 - losses of civilian personnel, militia, partisans);
        5 - all the losses of civilians (914 in the occupied territories; 100 residents of besieged Leningrad).

        Another 1 were emigration and the dead "colobrants" - 915 emigration and 000 dead collaborators (1 military personnel; 382 citizens).

        Total: 19 of all citizens of the USSR - direct military and civilian losses, emigration and dead collaborators. These 640 were supposed to be announced by the ADC commission in 200, and not their "tortured 19 losses from the war."

        The remaining 6, up to a value of 973, are calculated values ​​for natural and excess mortality, far-fetched.

        Another nickname Yura 27 attracted another 4 million. And what is so little, Yurok? Do not be shy, the State Duma has counted 42 million in general!

        I posted two topics on this forum, which you can find in my profile and read. However, as far as I understand, the public does not learn anything here and does not perceive anything.

        FOR ADEQUATE!
        For adequate people - read my topics, with specific article-by-article data, up to a thousand people! Read really worthwhile things, and not another opus of "fortune-telling in the coffee forest"!
        1. -2
          December 5 2022
          [/ quote] The population of the USSR, according to the revealed falsifications of the ADH commission, was only 1.7.1941 people as of 193, [quote]

          Gosplan of the USSR categorically disagrees with you:
          https://www.soldat.ru/news/1065.html
          1. -3
            December 5 2022
            [/ quote] Real losses are 17 [quote]

            Your arithmetic does not converge: on 01.07.41/199,92/01.01.46 the population was 22.06.41 million people, on 159,5/4/1940 there were survivors born before 7,2/2,5/XNUMX. , - XNUMX million. Over XNUMX years (according to XNUMX), about XNUMX million people would naturally die. More defectors and other Poles, let there be XNUMX million people.
            The final difference is about 30 million losses during the war.
            You have lost more than 12 million people somewhere.
            1. -4
              December 5 2022
              [/ quote] Another nickname Yura 27 [quote]

              My nickname is "one hundred" years on Saturday. So, past the checkout.
              1. -4
                December 5 2022
                [/ Quote] Why so little, Yurok? Do not be shy, the State Duma has counted 42 million in general! [quote]

                Dear Zakirik! It's high time to take up the mind and documents, finally start reading, and not invent all sorts of bullshit.
                The state fool did not count anything, there was a report written by an outsider with incorrect initial data.
                The USSR could have had 208 million people by the middle of 45, but in fact it had about 170 million.
                38 million people - this is the full price of that war.
                1. +3
                  December 5 2022
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  Why so little, Yurok? Do not be shy, the State Duma has counted 42 million in general!

                  Dear Zakirik! It's high time to take up the mind and documents, finally start reading, and not invent all sorts of bullshit.
                  The state fool did not count anything, there was a report written by an outsider with incorrect initial data.
                  The USSR could have had 208 million people by the middle of 45, but in fact it had about 170 million.
                  38 million people - this is the full price of that war.

                  Generation Next, of which you are a prominent representative, in principle, does not shine with intelligence. I will not even comment on this nonsense, because in your case it is useless.
          2. +3
            December 5 2022
            Quote: Jura 27
            The population of the USSR, according to the revealed falsifications of the ADC commission, was only 1.7.1941 people as of 193,

            Gosplan of the USSR categorically disagrees with you:
            https://www.soldat.ru/news/1065.html

            This is the population as of 1.7.1941, according to the revealed falsifications of the ADH commission. The ADH Commission substantiated 26, and not the State Planning Committee of the USSR!

            Leave Mr. Ivlev's calculations to yourself, as well as everything connected with Memorial. Read my topic and find the truth!
  3. +2
    December 4 2022
    Our military losses are comparable to the losses of the Nazis without taking into account the loss of all their allies, and taking them into account - much less. So our army fought excellently, as Suvorov taught.

    There are too many photos of brave fascists ... I like them better in this form:



    In the early days, a lot of construction battalion workers were captured from ours, who did not have any weapons, but dressed in military uniforms, building new fortified areas in the returned territories - western Ukraine, western Belarus, the Baltic states ...
    1. +1
      December 4 2022
      41-42 boilers, boilers, boilers and almost completely mown personnel units of the Red Army. If, according to the precepts of Suvorov, the Wehrmacht should not have advanced beyond the borders.
      1. +5
        December 4 2022
        Quote: Essex62
        41-42 boilers, boilers, boilers

        43-45 - boilers, boilers, boilers ... True, the Germans already got into them.
        Quote: Essex62
        and almost completely mowed-down personnel units of the Red Army.

        In numbers, please. Because we basically lost forces in the border districts, but still, in addition to them, there were many personnel units
        1. -3
          December 4 2022
          And the Western districts are, in fact, the most combat-ready and equipped parts of the Red Army. Numbers? Well, you can find them yourself. Each boiler + - half a million losses. Almost all aviation and all armored vehicles, moreover, superior in performance characteristics. BT-7, T-26 and T-28 look more serious than machine-gun kopecks, small-caliber twos and Prague. With such an armada, such a numerical and qualitative superiority, we had to roll it out like a pancake, in border battles and go along the geyropa to take Berlin. However, everything was exactly the opposite. The reasons for this have long been studied and voiced, as well as the reasons why, in the second part, of the war, we gouged them, I just answered the hat-patriot Boris to his nonsense.
          1. +2
            December 4 2022
            Did the frontal armor of the T-26 hold a 20mm armor-piercing projectile from the "small-caliber Deuce" or various Teutonic armored vehicles?
            Or did the side armor of the T-28 turret not break through from 37mm anti-tank guns and Praga guns?
          2. +7
            December 4 2022
            Quote: Essex62
            And the Western districts are, in fact, the most combat-ready and equipped parts of the Red Army.

            Sorry, but you were not talking about the most combat-ready. You spoke about "practically all personnel". And when you were offered to confirm your words with something, then first you transfer the conversation to "the most combat-ready", and then
            Quote: Essex62
            Numbers? Well, you can find them yourself.

            In other words, you cannot confirm your thesis. Q.E.D.
            Quote: Essex62
            Almost all aviation and all armored personnel carriers, moreover, superior in performance characteristics.

            Not a question, list which aircraft we had superior to the German ones at the beginning of the Second World War. Come on, I want to laugh.
            As for armored vehicles, then, alas, everything is not so wonderful for the Red Army
            Quote: Essex62
            BT-7, T-26 and T-28 look more serious than machine-gun kopecks, small-caliber twos and Prague.

            And why did the T-26 suddenly become better than the "Prague"? Maybe because it was inferior to it in armor? In the number of crew members?
            Quote: Essex62
            Such an armada, such a numerical and qualitative superiority

            :))))) This is who we have so numerically superior to the Germans, and in what? Maybe the troops of the border districts, which had a total of about 1,8 million active bayonets, stretched in 3 lines 400 km inland against 2,4 million Germans assembled into shock fists? At the same time, in the composition of 1,8 million people. In the first strategic echelon of the Red Army, there were 802 thousand recruits called up and sent to units in May-June 1941. These fighters can in no way be considered equal to the soldiers of the Wehrmacht - the period of their stay in units is from 0 to 7 weeks. Their German counterparts at that time were being trained in the reserve army. Those. these 802 thousand people. in terms of the level of training, they approximately corresponded to the German reserve army, which was not listed at all in the active troops of Germany.
            Quote: Essex62
            we had to roll out a pancake into a pancake, in border battles and go along the geyropa to take Berlin.

            Yes. In general, how did you study history, according to Solonin and Rezun, or what?
            Quote: Essex62
            The reasons for this have long been studied and voiced.

            I won't even ask what.
            1. 0
              December 4 2022
              Andrew, good evening! There are Meltyukhov's figures, worthily analyzed and substantiated in detail, as of June 22.06.1941, 3,3, in the Border Districts without troops of the second Strategic echelon, 2,4 million soldiers of the Red Army and NKVD troops, by the way, there are also more than XNUMX million Germans.
              1. +4
                December 4 2022
                Quote: Boris1812
                Andrew, good evening! There are Meltyukhov's figures, adequately analyzed and justified in detail, as of 22.06.1941/3,3/XNUMX in the Border Districts without troops of the second Strategic echelon XNUMX million fighters

                Boris, with all due respect to Meltyukhov, there were not and could not be any 3,3 million fighters in the Border Districts. Unless you count not active bayonets, but all troops, including railway and other non-combatants. But then there will be much more Germans. Again, we count only the Germans, without allies.
            2. 0
              December 5 2022
              I spoke about the personnel units on the S-G front, which took the first blow and were almost completely destroyed.
              There was no talk of L / A, it was about BTT.
              The superiority of the Germans in the concentration of troops, the coherence of species and genera, communications, and the training of personnel / s is not disputed by anyone. And it turned out, as it happened, but the Red Army surpassed them in terms of the amount of armor. With proper use, all these advantages of them were leveled. And they drove it in marches, from one direction to another, throwing it faulty or without fuel and strengthening the enemy. And what's the point in 50 / 25mm VLD 38T if the T-26 forty-five endured its crew with rivets like shrapnel? And most importantly, for one Prague / deuce, five to seven BTshek and T-26 accounted for. It was about this. Neither the commanders nor the army as a whole were ready for war.
              1. +5
                December 5 2022
                Quote: Essex62
                in terms of the amount of armor, the Red Army surpassed them. With proper use, all these advantages of them were leveled.

                They didn't level out at all. Tanks are just a component of the armed forces, yielding in other components of the enemy cannot be outplayed.
                Quote: Essex62
                And they drove it in marches, from one direction to another, throwing it faulty or without fuel and strengthening the enemy.

                And why? Yes, because they lost miserably to the enemy in communications and intelligence. The data arrived at the headquarters with a delay, the orders to the units came more late, as a result, when the units began to carry them out, they were already very outdated. They had to be changed and everything started all over again.
                See what they write about the connection with the troops Popel and Manstein. They have and we have.
                Quote: Essex62
                , throwing faulty or without fuel

                And what, did the army have trawls to take out faulty equipment? Were there enough vehicles to deliver fuel and ammunition in a timely manner?
                Quote: Essex62
                And most importantly, for one Prague / deuce, five to seven BTshek and T-26 accounted for

                Yes, there was no such thing. How many tanks and self-propelled guns the Germans had on the eastern front - the peaks are still breaking, despite the fact that the classics from Hildebrand - 5600 of them 3300 in total on the east - do not fight either with the states of the units or with common sense. The Wehrmacht sent almost all combat-ready units to the east, and 60% of the tanks in total? Yes, and the original 5600 is also disputed. At the same time, we clearly had a larger number of tanks not on the move than according to reports.
                But most importantly, even in those cases when we managed to attack with significantly superior tank forces, the result, alas, was predictable - heavy losses and the inability to hold the battlefield, even if the enemy was initially able to push back. Which is not surprising.
                Because if we consider a duel situation, four of our tanks against one German, it looks sad, but if you watch the attack of our tank regiment without reinforcements on a German infantry division, in which there were no tanks at all, then the consequences are obvious.

                Quote: Essex62
                Neither the command staff nor the army as a whole was ready for war.

                And how could they be ready when the general conscription was introduced only in 1939? When, back in 1938, there were enough infantry divisions for 50 command personnel, and the rest were Teroborontsy? The Germans started in 1936 with a small but very skilled army, which they deployed into a large one, and then wept, to remember the same march on Vienna. RIVER in 1941 - all the diseases of the explosive post are obvious, and the Germans had the same thing, only now the Germans have already overcome their illnesses, and even gained invaluable combat experience, but we ...
                1. -1
                  December 5 2022
                  Do I object to you? That's right, but we had more than 20 thousand tanks and against 6, well, let's say 7 thousand, together with anti-tank guns and other artillery systems pushed into the base of kopecks, two "Czechs", "French", still three times more. Well, then what you actually wrote about. They learned how to fight, pulled up all aspects and the quantitative advantage in BTT led to Berlin. And from this it follows that analysts reporting to the demoniac that the USSR "collos on feet of clay" did not sin against the truth. It is very doubtful that the OKW did not know about our new tanks and that we surpass them in armor at times. The undercover intelligence of the Germans has always been at its best. They knew and climbed anyway, almost succeeded. Everything hung by a thread.
          3. +1
            February 19 2023
            Well, the painters in 1941 thought the same way, so they decided, without further ado, to "rush and crush." Everyone knows what came out of it...
            Only about "numerical superiority" - this is in vain. The Germans had numerical superiority in 1941. And about the "studied and voiced reasons" - also in vain. The real reasons somehow passed by the consciousness of the masses ...
      2. +4
        December 4 2022
        41-42 boilers, boilers, boilers and almost completely mown personnel units of the Red Army. If, according to the precepts of Suvorov, the Wehrmacht should not have advanced beyond the borders.

        If, according to the precepts of Suvorov, then the Russian imperial army did not particularly manage to fight. It worked against a weak enemy - Turkey and Persia, but when a more serious enemy came into play (Antinapoleonic Wars, Crimean War, REV, WWI), something did not go according to Suvorov
    2. +3
      December 4 2022
      So our army fought excellently
      - to have more than 20 thousand. tanks, driving through them in six months is excellent? And now to write about construction battalions ....
      What's the point in fooling yourself?
      The Red Army in 41 did not know how to fight, learned by 43, having paid a bitter price for study, and this is the whole truth ...
      1. +1
        December 4 2022
        All 200 thousand tanks in six months "pro-Khazali" ???
        Who is to blame for the French that in addition to 2000 FT-17s they assembled 2637 new tanks as many as 10 models?
      2. +1
        February 22 2023
        The Wehrmacht in 1941 had a multiple superiority over the Red Army in numbers.
        When you talk about tanks, why are you modestly silent about this?
        Yes, “multiple” means “at times”.
    3. +2
      December 4 2022
      Quote: Boris55
      Our military losses are comparable to the losses of the Nazis without taking into account the loss of all their allies, and taking them into account - much less. So our army fought excellently, as Suvorov taught.

      There are too many photos of brave fascists ... I like them better in this form:



      In the early days, a lot of construction battalion workers were captured from ours, who did not have any weapons, but dressed in military uniforms, building new fortified areas in the returned territories - western Ukraine, western Belarus, the Baltic states ...

      I have always been interested in the question of why there are many people in civilian clothes in the photos and newsreel in the columns of Soviet prisoners.
      Everyone can see for himself.
      Then I came across infa that there were orders from Guderian, Manstein, that in the occupied Soviet territories, all men of military age should be considered prisoners of war.
      In addition to military builders (unarmed), about 150 thousand people were involved in the construction of barracks fortifications, equipment parks, etc. civil builders.
      Apparently they are in civilian clothes in columns of prisoners of war.
      1. 0
        December 4 2022
        Quote: Ulan.1812
        I have always been interested in the question of why there are many people in civilian clothes in the photos and newsreel in the columns of Soviet prisoners.

        1 PART. MILITIA.
        These are the militias. In total, 1 militias were sent to the front line:
        - 1 million actual militia from cities and nearby villages;
        - 250 destruction battalions (000 out of 1350 battalions formed);
        - 50 battalions of local militia and local air defense.

        Of them:
        - 400 died on the battlefield, died of wounds, received disability;
        - 528 were captured (200 died in captivity, approximately 389 successfully escaped from captivity, approximately 000 survived and were released);
        - the survivors partially went into the partisans (encirclement), and the rest were reorganized into rifle divisions and entered the 34 mobilized in the Red Army.

        The names of these 528 disappear from the German records of prisoners of war in December 200 (as of 1941/30.11.1941/31.12.1941 they are included, and XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX are excluded from the prisoners of war). Further and until the end of the war, German records were kept only for the soldiers of the Red Army and the troops of the NKVD.

        2 PART. CUSTOMER COMPOSITION.
        Employees of civilian departments allocated to meet the needs of the army:
        - employees of railway, road transport;
        - sea and river civil fleet;
        - ministries of health and communications;
        - civil engineering.
        464 died in captivity on May 000, 1.5.1944, another 403 remained in service on July 200, 1.7.1945.

        They are included in the total number of 34 mobilized in the Red Army (approximately 476 citizens).
  4. +3
    December 4 2022
    Quote: Boris55
    I like them better like this:

    And me... wink
  5. -1
    December 4 2022
    "and now we
    need one win
    one for all
    we are for the price
    we won't stand..."
  6. +3
    December 4 2022
    Yes, the article also illustrates a few modest photographs of the victors of fascism in the Second World War of Soviet soldiers, but mainly in the article there are photographs of flaunting fascists ... Is this sorrow and nostalgia, or nostalgia and sorrow ... ???
    As for the ChGK data, its work was stopped immediately after the Nuremberg Trials, although it seemed that two or three years were not enough to calculate all the losses for each republic of the USSR. The fact that, as the table in the article shows, that 706 people died in the RUSSR, and, for example, 000 people in the Lithuanian SSR, this is a clear exaggeration for the Lithuanian SSR. With all the Jews actually exterminated in Lithuania, with victims in the forts of Kaunas and with those taken to Germany, the figure is not more than 437 people. Lots of stuff on the internet. This is like Solzhenitsyn, then enemies of Soviet power deported from the Lithuanian SSR to Siberia could also be included in such statistics of losses. But not CHK. And then only 000 thousand more were added.
    But the statement of the author of the article was especially surprising, that, for example, in Lithuania, there were huge losses of the population in the front line during the hostilities. This is pure fiction of the author.
    Firstly, when the front went east and the Red Army retreated, the Nazis passed through the territory of the Lithuanian SSR like through butter. Lithuanian cities suffered only partially from German bombing and artillery shelling, not at all like hundreds of Smolensk and Stalingrad in Russia. And in the villages in Lithuania they lived on farms near the forests, and not in the villages and as in Russia, therefore, Lithuanian farmers did not have any difficulties hiding in the forest in the summer while the front was swept to the East.
    Well, then let's go from the forest to meet the German with lard and moonshine. It was the same when the front rolled to the West. And from the Soviet aviation and artillery of the city of Lit. The SSR did not suffer much when the front went to the West. What are the huge losses among the civilian population.
    By the way, after the Victory in the Second World War of the USSR, Kaunas, Siauliai, Raseiniai, Riga, Tallinn were first rebuilt, although hundreds of Minsks, Smolensks and Stalingrads still lay in ruins ...
  7. +6
    December 4 2022
    You can juggle numbers as you like, but after all, logic and the immutable laws of war eat.
    In 41-42, the losses of the Red Army were higher than in the Wehrmacht. After all, this fact is not disputed by anyone. You can talk about the reasons for a very long time, but the very fact that by the end of the 41st year the USSR actually lost the pre-war personnel of the army is not disputed by anyone.
    Just sum up at least the number of our prisoners in the numerous cauldrons of the beginning of the war. But besides the prisoners, there were direct losses.
    And then the offensive, the liberation of the occupied territory, the liberation of Europe. The advancing army in a war with a more or less equal enemy always suffers greater losses than the defenders. There are exceptions, of course, but that's what exceptions are.
    In my understanding, the losses of our army should in any case be greater, as far as this is probably not so important. It is important to remember this, and not to forget about the reasons for your own defeats. And then somehow, after 80 years, very similar things come up in the current war (communications, intelligence, interaction of units and branches of the military, supply and other others ....). And this despite the assertion that generals are always preparing for the last war. Not prepared for the past or the present.
    1. +2
      December 5 2022
      Quote: Yakut
      how much is probably not so important

      It is important. Because that's what fakers are playing on. By percentages more, at times, or by orders of magnitude - the difference is considerable. In any case, the losses of our army, in principle, cannot be much greater than the losses of the opponents - this contradicts the logic of events.
    2. 0
      February 19 2023
      Quote: Yakut
      The advancing army in a war with a more or less equal enemy always suffers greater losses than the defenders.

      This is only if the offensive is unsuccessful. The offensives of the Red Army were successful, so the Germans had more irretrievable losses.
  8. -5
    December 4 2022
    Thanks to the "Military Review" and the author Andrei Kravchenko for the "reading" that was useful to me.
    I thought deeply and fell into a long despondency ...
  9. +1
    December 4 2022
    Sometime in the future we will learn about the losses in today's war. She is at least as cruel. Here, the losses of the ukrovermacht are estimated at more than 100 thousand, while the size of the entire army is 750-800 thousand in 9 months. According to ours, it’s generally foggy, but different numbers are walking, in the range of 15-20 thousand. Civilians on both sides die relatively little compared to the military, not to be compared with the Second World War. Of course, what happened then is pure horror, but the West did not draw any conclusions. Bending their vile policy.
  10. +2
    December 4 2022
    For forty years now, works about losses have appeared. You can treat them in any way. For someone and Solzhenitsyn with V. Suvorov authority. From the proposed list of references, there is nothing authoritative for me personally, not even Krivosheev with his co-authors. I will express my personal opinion, only the one who keeps records of personnel has accurate data, and these are structures like GOMU. This structure alone is responsible for accuracy. But now there are more writers than readers.
    1. +1
      December 4 2022
      Quote: AlexGa
      From the proposed list of references, there is nothing authoritative for me personally, not even Krivosheev with his co-authors.

      Krivosheev's work is valuable if you understand the system of falsifications that he applied. This system allows you to reveal the exact article-by-article data that are hidden from a wide audience. Did you do it?

      Krivosheev's work is designed for the presence of good analytical thinking and the ability for thoughtful, systematic work. You have neither one nor the other, but there are cosmic conclusions "about the failure of his work."

      Example. Decipher the well-known formula:
      (6 + 885) - (100 + 4) = 559.

      Already on one "knowledge" of this equality, your knowledge "will be covered with a copper basin." Moreover, there is no one on this forum who will answer correctly. This is the general level of public understanding of Krivosheev's work - zero!
      1. +1
        December 4 2022
        However, you have a strange approach. I understand that you dealt with the issues of losses during the war years, but there is no need to evaluate my abilities, you have no such right. You are reading Krivosheev, I am the BChS data given on command, they are now freely available. And don't test me, you wrote the answer here https://history-forum.ru/viewtopic.php?t=18721. I also read you.
  11. +2
    December 4 2022
    I do not believe a word of the author referring to such gurus as Solzhenitsyn and Muller-Hillebrant. Rotten article with rotten pseudo conclusions. Suffice it to say how the author gracefully deceived Konoshevich's monograph, which, firstly, is based on documents, which the Khrushchevs do not have, etc., and secondly, it unambiguously breaks the propaganda myth about being overwhelmed with corpses. Kravchenko writes:
    In 1993 and 2001, the authors of the well-known monograph “Secrecy Removed” (edited by G. Krivosheev) published the figure of 8,7 million people; at the moment, it is indicated in most reference literature. But the authors themselves state that it does not include: 500 conscripts called up for mobilization and captured by the enemy, but not included in the lists of units and formations.

    According to him, Krivosheev falsifies the data and for him the loss of +/- half a million is nothing. We read Krivosheev himself:
    As a result of studying various materials, the authors came to the conclusion that in fact there were about 4 million 559 thousand military personnel in German captivity, including those liable for military service (500 thousand people). This information does not, and cannot, coincide with the data published in the foreign press. The discrepancies are mainly explained by the fact that in addition to military personnel, the German information also took into account civilians captured in the area of ​​​​combat operations, personnel of special forces of various civilian departments (means of communication, sea and river fleets, defensive construction, civil aviation, communications, healthcare, etc.). ), reports of which were not submitted to the army (navy) headquarters and the General Staff. For example, in the composition of the defense construction departments under the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR, the NKVD and the People's Commissariat of Defense, military personnel made up a small percentage (command staff), and the bulk, while quite significant, consisted of workers and employees. They erected defensive lines, fortified areas, built airfields, roads. Many of them were surrounded and captured. Among them was General D.M. Karbyshev, sent to inspect the progress of the construction of fortified areas. The captured partisans and underground fighters, the personnel of the incomplete formations of the people's militia, local air defense, destruction battalions, and police were not military personnel. In addition, in the first weeks of the war, the enemy captured a large number of citizens of military age who were not drafted into the Red Army for various reasons, who ended up in the war zone, the German army rear and in the territory occupied by the enemy.
    Consequently, information published in the foreign press on the number of prisoners of war cannot be taken as a basis for determining the real number of Soviet servicemen who were captured by the Germans.

    Those. Krivosheev takes into account “500 persons liable for military service, called up for mobilization and captured by the enemy”, but refers them to the column of prisoners of war and, accordingly, irretrievable losses from this number of military personnel are taken into account in the column of those who died in captivity. If, according to Kravchenko, they are counted as irretrievable losses, unaccounted for by Krivosheev, and added to those who died in captivity, then the myth of being overwhelmed with corpses will be replenished with an extra half a million.
    With the same anguish in his voice, Kravchenko writes:
    The almost completely dead militiamen of Moscow, Leningrad, Kyiv and other large cities are also not taken into account.

    Kravchenko himself, of course, took them into account and brought all the countless millions of militias into irretrievable losses. Now we read about the militias near Krivosheev:
    Along with the personnel of the army and navy, militias, partisans, and underground fighters took an active part in the armed struggle against the Nazi invaders. However, information about their losses is very limited. In particular, data on the losses of the people's militia are available only for those formations and units that were included in the troops of the active fronts and armies. Due to the lack of necessary documents about other formations in the military archives, it was not possible to determine their losses, so they are taken into account in the losses of the country's civilian population.
    It should be borne in mind that the formation of militia formations and units was carried out under the leadership of local party and Soviet bodies. They included volunteers who were not subject to conscription for mobilization. In total, over 4 million people throughout the country expressed a desire to join the people's militia. From the persons selected for training, formations, units and subdivisions of the people's militia were formed. But not everywhere it was possible to complete the formation. However, in total, about 2 million people entered the active army through the people's militia. Divisions and regiments of the militia played a significant role in the defense of Moscow, Leningrad, Smolensk, Tula, Stalingrad and many other cities. They suffered losses and considerable ones, because. were underarmed and poorly prepared for combat operations. Volunteer formations were re-armed, replenished according to the states of regular units and included in the Red Army.

    Those. unrecorded, undocumented losses of the militias are attributed by Krivosheev to the losses of the civilian population, taken into account from two million militias to combat losses. Fair in my opinion. How do you think? But this, again, contradicts the myth of being overwhelmed by corpses. Therefore, where Krivosheev writes about the lack of documents, Kravchenko yells about fraud and millions of concealed irretrievable combat losses.
    Kravchenko writes the same tales about prisoners of war, with reference to Goebbels's indecent propaganda. We read Krivosheev:
    The foreign press (mainly in Germany) gives the number of Soviet prisoners of war in the range of 5200000 - 5750000 people, and most of them belong to the first period of the war (June 1941 - November 1942). It can be assumed that in the absence of reliable materials, information about prisoners is taken, received from the headquarters of the army groups "North", "Center" and "South" during the offensive in 1941. 300 thousand people were taken prisoner by Belostok, Grodno and Minsk, 103 thousand near Uman, 450 thousand near Vitebsk, Orsha, Mogilev, Gomel, 180 thousand near Smolensk, 665 thousand near Kyiv, near Chernigov - 100 thousand, in the Mariupol region - 100 thousand, near Bryansk and Vyazma - 663 thousand people. Total in 1941 - 2 thousand people.
    The figures are impressive, but not accurate enough, since the fascist leadership in the number of prisoners of war included not only military personnel, but also all employees of party and Soviet bodies, as well as men, regardless of age, who retreated with the retreating and surrounded troops. As a result, the number of prisoners taken sometimes exceeds the number of armies and fronts that took part in a particular operation (battle). For example, the German command reported that 665 Soviet soldiers and officers had been taken prisoner east of Kyiv. Meanwhile, the entire number of troops of the Southwestern Front by the beginning of the Kyiv defensive operation amounted to 627 thousand people. Of this number, more than 150 thousand acted outside the encirclement, and tens of thousands of servicemen came out of the encirclement with battles. A similar situation with the message of the German command about the capture of 100 thousand prisoners of war in Sevastopol. Apparently, the Nazis also counted the entire population of the hero city, which could not be evacuated.

    Those. all Kravchenko's chatter about the fairness of the calculation boils down to the desire to increase by one and a half times the real irretrievable combat losses of the USSR for the sake of the domestic fifth column and Western propaganda.
  12. +1
    December 4 2022
    A logical question: where is the “filling up with corpses”, about which Western, and now domestic “open” and “democratic” sources talk so much?

    Elementary.
    1. We consider the losses of ONLY the Wehrmacht (3,2-4 million people). The rest of the countries (Finland, Hungary, Austria) and all legionnaires are not included in the statistics
    2. The losses of the armed forces of the USSR (12-13 million people) are combined with the losses of civilians (14-15 million people).
    3 We look at the result: the Wehrmacht 3,2 million people - the USSR 27 million people, i.e. ratio like 1:8 (or even 1 to 9)
    4 We announce that the losses of the USSR are 8-9 times higher than the German ones, and finally 10 times (which will make it possible to say "by an order of magnitude").
    You can show the losses of the USA and England (400 and 300 thousand people), which was not a comparison in favor of the USSR.
    All version of "filling up with corpses" is ready.
  13. +1
    December 4 2022
    I think the calculation of the losses of the Wehrmacht has not yet been fully carried out.
    I read that the Germans themselves admit this.
    He was familiar with those who carried out the excavations.
    There were German burials in you with medallions.
    They informed the German embassy and were ready to hand over these tokens.
    The answer was the meaning of which, that they say it is of no interest.
    That is, it is about the supposedly reverent attitude of the Germans to this issue.
    I don’t know if it’s true or not, let the experts correct it, but I read that the Germans had such a system that if the wounded died not in the first three days, but later, then they were counted as dead from the disease.
    1. 0
      December 4 2022
      I don’t know if it’s true or not, let the experts correct it, but I read that the Germans had such a system that if the wounded died not in the first three days, but later, then they were counted as dead from the disease.
      - a little different. From the beginning of the war to its end, Hitler and his clique did not benefit from the truth about real combat losses. Therefore, the Nazis lied in both big and small things. For example, the Germans counted their downed plane as downed only if the fact of its downing could not be hushed up. For example, in the case when a German plane fell on its airfield. In other cases, the downed aircraft was listed as non-combat ready as part of its unit. During the transition of the Luftwaffe to the new calendar year, such aircraft were massively decommissioned as exhausted. The mosquito will not undermine the nose. Especially in this regard, it is ridiculous to read the “historical” research of our new “historians: - “data on the results of air combat are not confirmed by German sources” - gee-gee-gee!
      Similarly, with the statistics of combat losses in the infantry, etc., a German was considered killed only if he was not reported to the collection point for the wounded. From the moment such an item was included in the lists, the German in his unit was considered on vacation, even if he died immediately after being included in these same lists. It was impossible to delete "such" vacationers from the list. Of course, they were not considered dead. Like bytovuha, died of gonorrhea. Therefore, German statistics on combat losses cannot be trusted.
      One more moment. It follows from German memoirs that in 1941, Hitler, in order not to frighten the rear with crowds of wounded and crippled, ordered all hospital trains to stop for an indefinite period on the border of the Polish General Government. Instead, the echelons with the loot used the priority of passage to the Reich. Life in an ambulance train is, of course, not life under a fence, but due to the lack of doctors and medicines, the wounded could not receive qualified medical care. Therefore, an unspecified number of seriously wounded vacationers found their end in these echelons. Doesn't it resemble the IV Reich of the Great Ze?
    2. 0
      December 4 2022
      Quote: Ulan.1812
      I think the calculation of the losses of the Wehrmacht has not yet been fully carried out.

      Go to my profile and see the topic on this forum - "The losses of the Wehrmacht. The Müller-Gillebrand falsification system" dated March 27, 2021. Everything is quite clearly stated there.
      1. +2
        December 4 2022
        Quote: Zakirov Damir
        Quote: Ulan.1812
        I think the calculation of the losses of the Wehrmacht has not yet been fully carried out.

        Go to my profile and see the topic on this forum - "The losses of the Wehrmacht. The Müller-Gillebrand falsification system" dated March 27, 2021. Everything is quite clearly stated there.

        Thanks, be sure to watch.
      2. +1
        December 5 2022
        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
        1. We consider the losses of ONLY the Wehrmacht (3,2-4 million people). The rest of the countries (Finland, Hungary, Austria) and all legionnaires are not included in the statistics


        You have too good an opinion about home-grown falsifiers. There were figures in the demo that on the Eastern Front of the Reich Armed Forces lost only 1.5 million killed. The ratio is even steeper.
        And somehow they ignore the indisputable fact that Soviet losses were higher also because the death rate of Soviet prisoners of war in German camps exceeded 40%, and the death rate of German (and their allies) prisoners in Soviet camps was about 10%. If the mortality rates (and conditions of detention) were similar, then the direct losses of the dead would be equal or even higher for the enemy.
  14. +2
    December 4 2022
    As correctly noted, this is not the first work in which they try to estimate the losses of the warring parties in the Second World War. Discarding marginal calculations, it can be stated that the total losses of the USSR amount to a figure in the range of 22-25 million people. Taking into account the imperfect system of counting combat losses and loss of documents, especially in the first years of the war, it can be said that more accurate calculations are hardly possible.
  15. 0
    December 4 2022
    There is an opinion that such discussions are harmful. It is quite obvious that in 80 years it is quite enough to assess "to * uy" without specifics.

    All the talk about "clarification of losses" is intended either to deliberately once again blame us for something, or simply to attract attention stupidly. Both of these are not useful.
  16. -1
    December 4 2022
    When the war in Ukraine ends, how will the losses of Ukraine be considered there, what will remain of Ukraine territorially?
    or according to Igor Konashenkov's report?

    Even now, the exact data on how many people live on the territory of Ukraine is not known ....
    And here in the USSR there are 170 million and in Germany 70 million in 1940, just for comparison, look at what population count Ukraine has from 36 million to 48 million, and after that you can believe in reports that 170 million lived in the USSR
    Data from wikipedia of the population of Ukraine.
    1) Large coverage - takes into account the population of Ukraine within the borders recognized by most of the international community (that is, including the Russian-controlled territory of Crimea). About 43 million people, the exact number is not calculated by any department. According to the CIA estimates set out in the "Book of Facts", the population of Ukraine is 43,22 million people[1].

    2) Average coverage - excluding Crimea. According to the State Statistics Service of Ukraine, the estimated actual population of Ukraine as of January 1, 2022 was 41 people[167], which is 336 thousand people less than the same indicator of the previous year[2].
    3) Narrow coverage. It takes into account only the territory controlled by the Ukrainian government (that is, also without the part of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions not controlled by Ukraine). According to the report "Assessment of the actual population of Ukraine", published on January 23, 2020 in the telegram channel of the Minister of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine Dmytro Dubilet, the actual number of the actual population living in Ukraine as of December 1, 2019, excluding Crimea and certain regions of Donetsk and Lugansk regions, amounted to 37 million 289 thousand people[4][5].

    4) Alternative points of view and calculations
    On February 4, 2020, the Ukrainian Center for Public Data (Ukrainian: Ukrainian Center for Suspicious Data) questioned the accuracy of Dubilet's information, declaring the presence of signs of deliberate falsification in them. According to UDCOD experts, all the main figures from the Dubilet report were obtained by simply multiplying the data of the State Statistics Service by a factor of 0,888[6].

    From 2004 to 2014, the average age of Ukrainian women giving birth increased from 24 to 27 years. Ukraine is among the first 20 countries with the oldest population[7].

    The last official census of the population of Ukraine took place in 2001. According to its results, the population of the country was 48 permanent residents[240] and 902 people of the actual population[8].
    1. +1
      December 4 2022
      Quote: Parvis Rasulov
      From 2004 to 2014, the average age of Ukrainian women giving birth increased from 24 to 27 years. Ukraine is among the top 20 countries with the oldest population

      The same with Belarus. I came here in 2015 and immediately caught a sharp contrast with the Chelyabinsk region - a high proportion of the population 45+. I also caught that there are significantly more people who have crossed the line of 70 years and are still in fairly good condition.

      You immediately begin to understand who was the donor in the Union, and who was the recipient. Who lived in the third category of supply and plowed in three shifts, and who lived in the first and enjoyed all the benefits.
  17. +2
    December 4 2022
    It took an hour to read the article - a lot of figures, reasoning, reservations, but in general, I did not find any significant logical flaws in the author's designs.
    The figure of the ratio of combat losses of 1,3: 1 has been walking in the literature for a long time (probably ten years) and, in general, it seems to me quite adequate.
    Normal loss ratio. Especially when you consider that in 41 we were forced to fight the best army on the planet.
    1. Fat
      +1
      December 4 2022
      hi Greetings. Michael.
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      The figure of the ratio of combat losses of 1,3: 1 has been walking in the literature for a long time (probably ten years) and, in general, it seems to me quite adequate.
      Normal loss ratio

      It seemed to me that the compilation presented by the author is just about 10 years old (judging by the literature and the latest publications on Andrey Kravchenko's website) request
      There is absolutely no desire to comment on these calculations.
      1. 0
        December 4 2022
        Quote: Thick
        hi Greetings. Michael.
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        The figure of the ratio of combat losses of 1,3: 1 has been walking in the literature for a long time (probably ten years) and, in general, it seems to me quite adequate.
        Normal loss ratio

        It seemed to me that the compilation presented by the author is just about 10 years old (judging by the literature and the latest publications on Andrey Kravchenko's website) request
        There is absolutely no desire to comment on these calculations.

        There is nothing to comment on here. Crazed information, set on edge, but no specifics.
  18. 0
    December 4 2022
    Solzhenitsyn was a complete scum who worked out his 30 pieces of silver.
  19. 0
    December 4 2022
    it can be assumed that in the war as a whole, due to double counting, the number of dead Red Army soldiers is overestimated by about 5–7%, i.e., by 0,2–0,4 million people.

    About 10 years ago I was looking for records about dead relatives, about 4-5 people, I don’t remember exactly. Only one of them was recorded 1 time, one 3 times, the rest 2 times.
  20. 0
    December 5 2022
    Quote: Damir Zakirov
    The remaining 6, up to a value of 973, are calculated values ​​for natural and excess mortality, far-fetched.


    Not only. Demographic losses also include a shortage of population due to a decline in the birth rate for a completely natural reason: potential fathers did not fulfill their direct duties due to the fact that they fought and were removed from their wives.
    In short, the direct losses of the USSR - 20 million, demographic - 26.
    It is fair to compare like with like. In percentage terms, Germany's demographic losses were higher than those of the USSR.
    1. +1
      December 5 2022
      Quote: Illanatol
      Quote: Damir Zakirov
      The remaining 6, up to a value of 973, are calculated values ​​for natural and excess mortality, far-fetched.


      Not only. Demographic losses also include a shortage of population due to a decline in the birth rate for a completely natural reason: potential fathers did not fulfill their direct duties due to the fact that they fought and were removed from their wives.
      In short, the direct losses of the USSR - 20 million, demographic - 26.
      It is fair to compare like with like. In percentage terms, Germany's demographic losses were higher than those of the USSR.


      1. Military and civilian losses 17.
      2. Emigration and dead collaborators another 1 (these are indirect, not direct losses).
      Total: 19.

      3. Increased mortality is:
      2 among those born before the war;
      835 among those born during the war.

      4. Natural mortality among those born during the war 3 and a dummy value of 049, designed to increase 000 to Berabenovsky 445, from which member was included in the 000 "Losses from the war." What are these 835 doing here?

      Therefore, the LOSS, and not the VICTIMS of the population of the USSR, amounted to 26 - 613 = 000 according to the revealed falsifications of the ADC commission. But at the same time, the authorities still need to clarify that this includes 3 emigrants and dead collaborators.

      And if you are already an adherent of accounting for direct losses and increased mortality, then the FINAL DATA IS THESE:
      1. 11 all military losses of the USSR;
      2. 5 all peaceful losses of the USSR;
      3. 2 + 644 = 000 all increased mortality among births, respectively, before and during the war.
      Total: 21 people according to the revealed falsifications of the ADC commission.

      The remaining 26 - 613 = 000 are "far-fetched" and are not victims of the USSR, due to the factors of the war!

      All data accurate to a thousand people, if you notice.
  21. -1
    December 5 2022
    Quote: Damir Zakirov
    All data accurate to a thousand people, if you notice.


    And where is the account of the unborn? Even if not with such accuracy?
    In what column?
    And the fact that during the Second World War there was a reduction in the birth rate is an indisputable fact.
    In demography, the processes are cyclical and we, by the way, observe the "echo" from the then decline in the birth rate in our time. The “echo” has noticeably increased, since the previous one took place in the 90s, which, in their negative impact on demographic processes, turned out to be comparable to the war (the resonance effect, which led to a shortage of about 10 million in the Russian Federation and 20 million in the territory of the former USSR).
    1. +1
      December 5 2022
      Do the Germans take into account the unborn in their statistics?
      1. 0
        December 5 2022
        Quote: Sergej1972
        Do the Germans take into account the unborn in their statistics?

        You can't continue with it. This is the type of people who are not able to assimilate the essence of the information provided to them due to the lack of analytical thinking and logic, but are ready to "calculate" the demographic consequences of the Second World War three generations ahead.
    2. 0
      December 5 2022
      Quote: Illanatol
      And where is the account of the unborn? Even if not with such accuracy? In what column?

      In the column "For idiots"! In my topic, there is no such column, unfortunately for you.
      1. 0
        December 6 2022
        How touchy we are. I understand, it's a shame when they poke their nose into an obvious miscalculation.
        That the demographic losses should include accounting for the unborn is an elementary truth.
        And that the reduction in the number of children in a given period will have cyclical consequences - it is also easy to perceive for a thinking person. Children grow up and become parents themselves. Fewer parents will produce fewer children, other things being equal.
        You can flaunt your numbers as much as you like, but your data is incomplete.
        1. +1
          December 6 2022
          Quote: Illanatol
          How touchy we are. I understand, it's a shame when they poke their nose into an obvious miscalculation.

          What miscalculation? Potentially unborn children during the war?
          The ADH Commission came up with a natural mortality rate, increased to it, and you still propose to calculate the potentially unborn? What else can you think of?

          Quote: Illanatol
          That the demographic losses should include accounting for the unborn is an elementary truth.


          This is a clever translation of 17 direct military and civilian losses upwards, no more.

          Stage 2. Khrushchev stuck 1 emigrants and 382 dead collaborators. Thus, now direct military and civilian losses, taking into account indirect losses, amounted to 000. Which amounted to Brezhnev's "about 533 million." My merit is that I clearly identified these 000. Do you see the accuracy?

          Stage 3. The ADH Commission added another 6 natural and increased deaths, resorting to an outright forgery, namely, the inclusion of natural deaths in the amount of 973 into these 000. And due to this, they brought the losses to 3 during Gorbachev's time.

          Stage 4. Nick, under the name of Illanatol, decided to show off his demographic knowledge and go further - to take into account the demographic hole of 1965-70 and count the potentially unborn as victims of the war. I, dear, am a mathematician and there is no need to be clever in front of me with knowledge in demography. Sculpt this nonsense to Yura 27 - he threw 12 million on everything and got 38 million. This is your audience.

          Quote: Illanatol
          That the demographic losses should include accounting for the unborn is an elementary truth.

          My theme for adequate readers. Your remark to the audience "Dumb, dumber." I already found one for you.
  22. 0
    December 5 2022
    It is probably incorrect to put Norway and Denmark on a par with Italy, Croatia, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, who were allies of Germany, possessed sovereignty and had their own armed forces. Although, of course, the sovereignty of Slovakia and Croatia was limited. Norway was an occupied country. In Denmark, until 1943 there was a regime of "quiet", exemplary occupation, with the preservation of state structures, a multi-party system and the army (which was forced to transfer most of the heavy weapons to the Germans), but under the control of the Germans. In 1943, a full-fledged occupation began, with the dissolution of the army, and in 1944, the police.
  23. +1
    December 5 2022
    With statistics, everything is difficult, in terms of population. Why the results of the 1936 census were canceled ... did not suit the chief. They fixed it a year later. Incl. we will never know who and how much lost.
    1. 0
      December 5 2022
      Quote: Boris63
      With statistics, everything is difficult, in terms of population. Why the results of the 1936 census were canceled ... did not suit the chief. They fixed it a year later. Incl. we will never know who and how much lost.

      The population of the USSR, according to the census of January 16, 1939, is 168 people, according to the revealed falsification of the ADH commission. And then, in both directions, in the direction of the famine of 524 and the population on July 000, 1933, there is a "catch-up" by the ADH commission.
  24. +1
    December 5 2022
    Very interesting material, dear Andrey! But here it is: The non-participation of our researchers, for example, in the all-German "dispute of historians" only exacerbates this situation. Do you know why they don't participate? Until 2045, the archives of the Ministry of Defense are classified, including those with data on losses. It remains, as you do, to guess by indirect signs. But there are no documents! And I'm not sure that they will open in 2045... Do you know why? When Poincaré was dying, he was asked why he, being so knowledgeable, did not write his memoirs. "Then no one would dare to die for their homeland!" he replied. "For France?" the journalist asked. "No for the Motherland!" Poincaré answered.
    1. 0
      December 5 2022
      Quote: kalibr
      Very interesting material, dear Andrey! But this: The non-participation of our researchers, for example, in the all-German "dispute of historians" only exacerbates this situation. Do you know why they don't participate? Until 2045, the archives of the Ministry of Defense are classified, including those with data on losses.

      There are fundamental works by Krivosheev, Müller-Hillebrand and Rüdiger Overmans. They were provided with archives in full volume.

      On the basis of these archives, they created their fundamental works. These works are in two parts:
      - hidden part;
      - fake superstructure.
      You remove the fake add-on and go to the hidden part.

      The final data on the losses of the population of the USSR and the Wehrmacht are presented on this forum in two topics. You can go to my profile and read them. There is specific information, without any guesswork on the "coffee grounds".

      The only question is whether you really want to understand or not. The point is only in the presence of motivation, and not at all in closed archives!
      1. 0
        December 5 2022
        Quote: Damir Zakirov
        They were provided with archives in full volume.

        Нет!
        Then why won't they be opened to our researchers? I worked in the archives of the Moscow Region and I had to bring more than one box of sweets to the "girls" in order to ... True, it was a long time ago, when sweets were still in price. How now I don't know.
        1. 0
          December 5 2022
          Quote: kalibr
          Quote: Damir Zakirov
          They were provided with archives in full volume.

          Нет!
          Then why won't they be opened to our researchers? I worked in the archives of the Moscow Region and I had to bring more than one box of sweets to the "girls" in order to ... True, it was a long time ago, when sweets were still in price. How now I don't know.

          Well no! Their works are fundamental because they were based on real archives. And for the created falsified fundamental works, the authors received solid grants, not a box of chocolates.

          And there are good reasons why they are not being opened up to our researchers. That is why there are fundamental works paid for by the state, and eat to your health!
          Who are you to have access to the holy of holies?

          Therefore, the full breakdown of these fundamental works into a hidden part and a falsified superstructure costs a thousand times more than a thousand works of unfortunate researchers. And my topics, laid out in full analytical volume, will pose a real threat to fabricated data at the state level than all your "fortune-telling on the coffee grounds."
          1. 0
            December 5 2022
            Quote: Damir Zakirov
            Who are you to have access to the holy of holies?

            This is bad. In the USSR, the amounts of payments to party bosses in envelopes and bonuses to OK cleaners for the summer were also kept secret. And where is this USSR?
            1. 0
              December 5 2022
              Quote: kalibr
              Quote: Damir Zakirov
              Who are you to have access to the holy of holies?

              This is bad. In the USSR, the amounts of payments to party bosses in envelopes and bonuses to OK cleaners for the summer were also kept secret. And where is this USSR?

              Since I know the falsifications themselves, and understand the reasons for these falsifications, you can ask a question about any of the four fundamental works. In turn, I will explain the reason why they are kept secret.
  25. +1
    December 5 2022
    1. The irretrievable military losses of Germany (killing, capturing before and after surrender) are all mobilization in the Wehrmacht + numbers before the start of the war + all other weapons of the formation that took part in the hostilities but did not beat part of the Wehrmacht - demobilization for the military industry. In general, this is at least 20 million people. Including those who were captured with unconditional surrender. They cannot be reprimanded, since unconditional surrender is the result of hostilities, and not a gesture of goodwill. How to divide German losses on merit between the USSR and the Western allies is another matter.
    2. To the military losses of Germany must be added the military losses of their allies in Europe, including as a result of their surrender. This will also be at least 6 million (Italy, Finland, Romunia, Hungary, Croatia, Bulgaria, Slovakia - if someone missed it, don't be offended). How to divide them between the USSR and the allies is also another matter.
    3. In general, the irretrievable military losses of the USSR are in no way greater than the same losses of Germany and its allies only on the Eastern Front in Europe. In the end, taking into account the surrender, no 1 to 3, 1 to 2, or even 1 to 1,3 beat in favor of Germany.
    4. The loss of Japan and the war in Asia is a separate issue.
    5. The civilian losses of the USSR are too high. There is an estimate by the famous Soviet demographer Polyakov that the demographic losses of the civilian population of the USSR in the war do not exceed 5-6 million, and the direct losses of the civilian population are even less.
  26. 0
    December 5 2022
    Quote: Sergej1972
    Do the Germans take into account the unborn in their statistics?


    No. But if we compare demographic losses, then we need such an account.
    It is correct to compare direct losses with direct losses, demographic - with demographic.
    Otherwise forgery and distortion.
    And by the way, why only the Germans? The Reich did not consist of Germany alone (as indicated in the article).
  27. 0
    December 5 2022
    Of the 26,6 million losses, about 5-5,5 million were emigrants who, for various reasons, found themselves outside the USSR and did not return. Those. they are lost for our country, but not dead.
    It is not clear how "3 million 226 thousand people (on the territory of the USSR alone - 2 burials) ... takes into account only the burials of Germans"? Was it always known exactly who lies in this grave? And besides the disappeared or destroyed burial places of the Germans, one must also keep in mind the following: "... when leaving the "cauldron" in the February battles, many Germans died in the Lysyansk region. Their corpses were not removed for a long time until they buried all our dead soldiers. All these care for burial in mass graves were entrusted to local residents - women, old people and children. After that, the order to bury German corpses followed. They no longer had the strength to dig mass graves, and warm days were coming. Therefore, they decided to dump the corpses into a deep gully. Then they brought down the walls of the ravine and covered up the corpses" ("Fathers-commanders" part 330). Who counted these Germans?
  28. 0
    December 5 2022
    If ours treated enemy prisoners in the same way as the Germans treated ours, then another million and a half Germans, Austrians, Magyars and Romanians would not return from captivity.
    One more nuance. In 1943, the average annual number of "Khivi" in the Wehrmacht was 1700 thousand people, in 1944 - already 2300 thousand. In the infantry division of the Wehrmacht in 1943, out of 12600 personnel, 2005 people are "Khivi", including 306 people in the rear services and the rest in combat units and combat support units. In the battery of light 105-mm howitzers, out of 161 personnel, 18 people were Heavis. Those. these people directly participated in the battles. And, of course, they suffered losses, but they did not pass in the accounting of personal losses, because. did not belong to the so-called. imperial to the Germans.
    In general, the accounting of losses among the Germans was extremely confused. Separate accounting for "combat strength", separate accounting for the number of combat support units, separately for logistics support units. This type of loss, such as those who died from wounds on the battlefield and at the stages of evacuation, was absent as a class in the Wehrmacht Army. Since as soon as the wound was qualified as requiring more than 2 weeks to be removed, the wounded was immediately transferred to the Reserve Army. And if he died, even on the battlefield, then it was taken into account as the loss of the Reserve Army, and not the Active Army.
    In general, taking into account the losses of the Germans, everything was very rotten.
    1. 0
      December 5 2022
      Quote: Tank DestroyerSU-100
      In general, taking into account the losses of the Germans, everything was very rotten.

      In addition, until 1975, the Americans did not give the Germans the opportunity to work with their own archives!
      1. +1
        December 6 2022
        And not only the Germans, the same Britons were shown the fig
  29. 0
    December 12 2022
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    But then there will be much more Germans. Again, we count only the Germans, without allies.
    Well, in fact, only the Germans and Romanians fought against us in the first week of the war.
    And another moment. It is believed that on June 22.06.1941, 22.06.1941, a certain number of German divisions crossed the Soviet-German border. In fact, on June 17, 22, the Soviet-German border was crossed only, so to speak, by the combat cores of German divisions with a minimum number of rear units. That is, out of almost 3 thousand people of the regular strength of the Wehrmacht division on June 4, XNUMX maximum XNUMX thousand people crossed the border.
    At the same time, on 22.06.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX, the full composition of divisions, including divisional hairdressers, shoemakers, and so on, could enter the battle. Although the number of Soviet divisions was less than the German divisions, but at the very beginning of the war, a greater number of bayonets from our side could have entered into combat contact.
    1. +1
      February 19 2023
      And how many people were in combat units in the German infantry division?
  30. RUR
    -3
    December 15 2022
    And it was the “empire of the German nation” that created what is called “European civilization”
    - this is the Moscow-Tatar version - entertaining, but no more than exotic, since Europe was created by the Catholic Church - through it a single faith was established in Europe - Catholicism (Byzantium in the West is the West, i.e. Europe is not considered), a single interethnic language churches, literature, diplomacy and science - Latin, catholic monasteries transferred many ways of managing and production to catholic countries from the former Roman Empire, medieval science was also originally under the control of the church, architecture and music originally followed the canons of catholic Italy / Vatican ... and yes the Emperor himself - Charles (German Karl, Eng. Charles) seems to have been a Frenchman ...
  31. 0
    February 22 2023
    Quote: Seal
    At the same time, on 22.06.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX, the full composition of divisions, including divisional hairdressers, shoemakers, and so on, could enter the battle. Although the number of Soviet divisions was less than the German divisions, but at the very beginning of the war, a greater number of bayonets from our side could have entered into combat contact.

    The combat strength of the German and Romanian divisions is much more than 3-4 thousand. Their infantry and artillery fired and participated in battles without crossing the border.
    At the same time, only 40-50 Soviet divisions and border troops were located directly at the borders.
    All the rest were hit 40 to 200 kilometers from the border and could not take part in the battles on June 22, 1941.
  32. 0
    April 3 2023
    That's right, Poland is not a European family, and even more so, it has not been mentally related to the Slavs for a long time, the hyena of Europe, adherence to the Anglo-Saxons.

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