Submachine gun ERMA EMP 36 - half a step before the MP 38 / 40

Comments

[bouncyhunter]

Thanks to the author for the article!

[The leader of the Redskins]

I join the above words. Thank.

[Niccola Mack]

MP-38, 40 - a classic, a good unit.
The only major problem is the fuse, or rather, its absence!

[Kibb]

The usual cut-out (two in models with 42nd seem) in the lid, what else can you do?

[Grid]

Not really. In some models, the shutter handle was also a fuse (about the same as our PPD and PPSh), which closed the shutter in the forward position.

[Kibb]

This is what I don’t quite understand - how can a safety be made when firing from an open bolt and the firing pin on the mirror other than on the cutout with the handle (In the MP40 it’s still okay, there the firing pin is separate, it’s not clear why).

[Grid]

Ways a little less than to hell. Starting from the institution of the shutter handle to the cutout of the receiver (first used on the MP-18) and somehow implemented the engine on the cocking handle (MP-40, though only in the front position, PPD, PPSh), Thompson whispered lock, lock the shutter with the M cover -3 ... Well, etc.
At the same time, the method of firing the shot does not matter.

[Kibb]

Ie cut, thanks, I understood everything.

[Grid]

Regarding MP-40 and PPD, PPSh just like that. There was a movable part with a fixation that went into the cutouts of the box. PPD and PPSh had two such cutouts. Corresponding to the extremely forward and cocked shutter position. The Germans initially on the MP-38 there was only a cutout in which the handle was turned on when the cocked shutter. However, during operation, it soon became clear that with an adjoined store and a sharp jerk, for example, when jumping from a car, the shutter could quite well retreat back enough distance to pick up the cartridge with the corresponding consequences. Therefore, they began to make such a fuse on it.

[Kibb]

Ok, I agree, even put an asterisk.

[Kibb]

Although no, I still didn’t understand, what for, I need a second cut-out - when the shutter is in the extreme front position, you still can’t open the fire, you need to cock the shutter — there is no cartridge in the chamber, why do you need a cut-out in the extreme front position — just to understand what position the shutter is in ?

[Grid]

I wrote ...
With a strong push, when hitting the back of the box on the ground, for example, when dismounting from a truck, a person slipped and purely instinctively hit the machine, the inertia of the massive shutter was enough to step back and push the cartridge out of the magazine. Accordingly, a shot followed. That's to prevent this from happening and made a fuse that locks the shutter in its extreme forward position.
The cutout in the box is made so that the fuse engine goes in there.

[Kibb]

If your bolt is in the forward position, then there is no cartridge in the chamber, what to block? So you want to say that the force of the impact with the ground is enough for the bolt, for example, of the PPSh, to move from the forward position by the length of the cartridge and send it into the barrel?

[Grid]

In fact, in a weapon firing from the rear whisper of the cartridge in the chamber until the shutter is released. Just by definition.

So you want to say, a hundred impact forces on the ground is enough to shutter, PPSh suppose, moved from the front position to the length of the cartridge and sent it to the barrel?

That's right. The same PPSh bolt had a mass of 700 grams and not to say that it would have a very powerful reciprocating spring. In addition, the pistol cartridge is quite short, so there have been such cases. Moreover, with some dexterity, you and the shutter of the AK can distort in this way. (True, one hundred percent get on the neck from the nearest commander :))
By the way, here in this photo, cutouts for the fuse engine and the engine itself, mounted on the cocking handle, are very clearly visible.

[Niccola Mack]

Ways a little less than to hell.

Very sensible fuse is made on the PPP.
It fixes the bolt handle from the inside in two positions and blocks the trigger lever of the trigger mechanism. In addition, when externally affected, it locks and can actually be opened only "from the inside" of the trigger guard.

[Grid]

Well PPP itself is a very sensible PP. It is a pity that Sudaev died so early.

[Niccola Mack]

Yes, the modified AC-44 had every chance of becoming a Kalashnikov.

[Grid]

It may well be ...
It is a pity that so many ceased to live too early ...

[MRomanovich]

Quote: Nikkola Mac

MP-38, 40 - a classic, a good unit.

still glows in troubled places on our planet

[staviator]

dream of black diggers

[bunta]

According to the plan of their creators, this new type of rapid-fire small arms, in which an ordinary pistol cartridge was used, was supposed to significantly increase the firepower of the advancing troops.

Typical transferable stamp.
"The creators' idea" was not to increase the "firepower of the attackers", but to equip the defenders with automatic weapons due to the lack of light machine guns. Hence the side location of the magazine - for the convenience of shooting from a trench.

[Niccola Mack]

The "idea of ​​the creators" was not to increase the "firepower of the advancing",

However, the Germans MP-18/1 were armed precisely with assault squads - after they tried the Mausers and Parabellums with "big" shops and long butts.
ERMA 36 (future MP-38) was generally initially created at the request of the headquarters of tank and motorized troops as a weapon of self-defense of tankers and crews of armored vehicles. And only then the paratroopers became interested in them and even later - the infantrymen. Moreover, only platoon and company commanders initially armed themselves - who are more in charge of the battle than they are participating in it.
Most of this statement corresponded to the Red Army - there it was supposed to have 2 shooters with the RPD (PPSh) before the war - who, together with the DP machine gun, were supposed to solve the "last 200 meters" problem.

[bunta]

Quote: Nikkola Mac

However, the Germans MP-18 / 1 armed precisely the assault troops

However, the last use of assault battalions was in the offensive on March 21, 1918 in Operation Unternehmen Michael, and the first MP-18s began to be delivered to the troops much later. If any of the German officers had a sound idea about arming assault units with submachine guns, then it remained so until the end of not even the first, but the second world war. PPs were developed exclusively as defensive machine guns with a service staff of two people, where the second number carried more than 2000 rounds.
Mention of the armament of the German assault groups by the first BCPs is complete, but not a single link, not a single photograph and not a single document about their real use by the Germans in the WWII offensive operations.
http://oper-1974.livejournal.com/637431.html
The first real use of air defense in assault units began precisely in the Soviet Army. But can this fact be compared with the genius of German military thought (sarcasm).

[Niccola Mack]

Sorry, but still your statement that the PP was planned as a defensive weapon between the wars is a bit of a draw. Rather, the thesis about finding a place and meaning in battle - both offensive and defensive - will be true.
The fact that the Germans planned MP18 / 1 for assault units is reliable (just look at his snail store for Parabellum and numerous messages - “for assault units and the police”). As well as the fact that by the time they arrived there, the Germans had actually lost their strategic initiative.
But what further - gangster showdowns in the United States are unlikely to be an indicator - although they were used ("Thompsons") both in attack and in defense.

Further, PPs were widely used in the "war in Chaco" (between Bolivia and Paraguay - 1932-35). The German major Brandt who fought in this war made good notes about this war and about the action of the PP in particular. In the pristine forests and shrubs of South America, sudden short fire contacts were a common form of battle, where the PP showed good results. Upon returning to Germany, Brant advocated for 30% the armament of infantry, cavalry, engineering and motorcycle parts of the PP.
The Germans themselves began to argue with him, mainly by clicking on the short range of the actual fire and the completely different character of the European theater of operations.
It is easy to see that the “Chaco War” is a specific conflict, and in a sudden battle in the forest and bushes at close range, the PP could be used equally by both the attacking and defending side.
And as a result, ERMA 36 was originally ordered as something more than a pistol for armored vehicle crews, and then the MP-38 was armed with paratroopers (by no means without exception) and rifle company officers (even later non-commissioned officers).

The next conflict was the Soviet-Finnish war. It’s also quite specific. About how the “Suomi” “mowed” the Red Army did not write only lazy. However, the reality speaks about something else.
There were 2954 people in the Finnish infantry regiment and he was armed:
- 2325 rifles, 36 easel machine guns, 72 light machine guns and 72 machine guns.
Considering that the Finns were defending, this scanty amount of bullets (3%) was used (although in reality almost all the power of the fire was “Maxims” firing tens of thousands of bullets over an area).
And everyone forgets about the staff of another unit - the so-called sissi battalions. Ski "partisan" battalions of special purpose. They were intended for independent actions with envelopment and bypassing of advancing divisions of the Red Army through the forests. Instead of two submachine guns in the infantry platoon of the regular army, the platoons of the sissi battalions received four submachine guns "Suomi". Since they did not have any other automatic weapons. They were used for predominantly offensive operations and also used their PP.
These divisions are mainly told at the mention and “general armament” of the Finns of the PP.
The Germans were also actively using PP in obviously offensive (assault) clashes during the landing on Crete and the Americans in the airborne phase of the Overlord. But one cannot speak of "mass armament" either.

[Grid]

The Germans themselves began to argue with him, mainly by clicking on the short range of the actual fire and the completely different character of the European theater of operations.

And in principle, they were right. Who could have suggested that one of the main types of battles of World War II would be a battle in urban conditions?

[bunta]

Not to weaken the attraction of the ears, but solely to shake off the noodles from them,
so be it.
Do not try to replace the thesis "the creator's intention" with "the thesis about the search for a place and meaning in battle - both offensive and defensive" which in the original sounded like "it was the assault troops that were armed." ("The ABCs of a Demagogue", Detgiz, 1962, Chapter "The Art of Substituting a Thesis").
If you trace the history of the subject, the first embodiment of the creator’s intention in 1915 was a double-barreled machine gun firing pistol cartridges.
Then he moved to the trenches of the Italian army in the form of the same double-barreled light machine gun. After a while he was half and
became a full-fledged submachine gun. Note, indeed the first in the world to equip infantry units, since the Italian assault thought
significantly lagged behind the German and thought more not about the assault, but about how not to get lyuley from the most advanced militarily of German thought.
Thus, the very first PP sample completely rejects the thesis that:

As conceived by their creators, this new type of ... weapon was to significantly increase the firepower of the advancing troops.

As for the second sample, German. The fact that it was a weapon designed to fire from the trenches, as a cheap alternative
machine guns, says not only their design, but also

- The tactics of military operations prevailing in the WWII. The breakthrough of the defense was carried out after artillery and machine-gun training, by pulling manpower to the line of attack (400 m.?) With a multiple advantage. You can repel such an attack
It was only using automatic weapons, which was represented at that time only with machine guns.
During the artillery preparation period, the defending side retreated its easel machine guns away from the front line in order to preserve. Therefore, they simply did not have time to pull them to the line of defense in time. All this was written not only in military literature, but also in Brusilov and Fedorov.

- the historical context, the emergence of the PP at the end of the war, when the Germans were no longer ready for assaults.

As for the "assault squads" and their weapons, this is a separate topic and has nothing to do with the main thesis of the article about the "creator's intentions".
There are no historical or technical facts that the air defense forces were created exclusively for assault groups. About what they intended to arm - maybe. I do not exclude it.
But I want to draw attention to one point. So, according to the author of the article, the idea of ​​the creators of 1918 was to arm certain groups of soldiers conducting offensive actions with PP. Why then in 1942 in Stalingrad



no such groups were observed. Did the creators of the idea rethink something?

PS. "Shop - snail" is from parabellum, it was already before the appearance of MP-18 and was created by another office.

I apologize for the ironic tone.

[Niccola Mack]

Do not try to replace the thesis "creator design"

Let's not confuse the genesis of PP Rivelli M1915 and MP18 / 1 - the first was really created for defense (and aviation) - almost like a light machine gun, but the second - as a weapon of assault units after experimenting with Luger (Parabelum) and Mauser .

- The tactics of military operations prevailing in the WWII. The breakthrough of the defense was carried out after artillery and machine-gun training, by pulling manpower to the line of attack (400 m.?) With a multiple advantage. You can repel such an attack

You forget the main reason for the "positional dead end" - the insufficient speed of breaking into the defense and further advancement through the second line to enter the operational space. Otherwise, the enemy quickly pulled up forces and “sealed” the breakthrough.
The Entente tried to solve this problem with a tank attack, the Germans with assault groups (battalions, companies, etc.).

- the historical context, the emergence of the PP at the end of the war, when the Germans were no longer ready for assaults.

This is not entirely true, although the Germans had already lost their strategic initiative, the last attempt at a major offensive was the “Second Battle of the Marne” - from July 15 to August 6, where the assault units were actively used, the air defense forces began to arrive at the front in March (in many sources it’s just "spring" 1918).

Did the creators of the concept rethink something?

I have repeatedly mentioned above how the Germans looked at the place of the PP in the Wehrmacht.

"Shop - snail" is from parabellum,

Exactly - the Germans were just trying to use this model ("art model" + snail store) in the assault units.

[Monarchist]

If a person who is far from history looks at x / f, and there the whole Wehrmacht is armed with MP38. How much in childhood I watched and now in films all the way to MP38, but in fact there were a lot less.
I remember in my childhood I watched a war film, and my cousin spit: what a nonsense, that in 1941 everyone had PPSh machine guns, in nature PPSh were in short supply in the summer of 1942

[vviller]

echo of war! Good article.

[Evver]

Skeleton-shaped, brutal Teutonic machine gun (submachine gun) Schmeisser (I know, I know, not Schmeisser at all :) ... but for the 70's boy this unit was a symbol of Fritz and, at the same time, an attribute of the coolest " our "... remember the Soviet films ...

The most dashing partisans are all polls with “Schmeissers” ... Zorka from “The battalions are asking for fire” - with “Schmeisser” ... “There is no way back” - from Toporkov, Lyovushkin - again they ...
Most of our scouts from the Soviet cinema are with them!

[Comrade Stalin]

Beautiful, infection! Would buy such, and not MMG, but military.

[Uncle lee]

The Germans began to release as a "hunting carbine", somewhere I saw ....

[Kibb]

Grid,
I told you that there is no cartridge in the chamber - what to block.
To cock the AK like that, you need to hit the concrete floor hard and with purpose, the M16A2's butt simply broke under such a blow. I've never fired from a PPSh, and the MP40 and PPS have a fairly stiff spring (and the safety catch in the PPS is not so primitive) - something is doubtful, although okay, you answered the question, it's just that at first you were talking nonsense

[Grid]

I told you that there is no cartridge in the chamber - what to block.

Gate. So that by inertia he would not move backward, a distance sufficient to capture the cartridge from the magazine, but not enough to be positioned in a sear.

To cock the AK in this way you need to nefigovo and purposefully hammer on the concrete floor

Naturally. And I watched such frames. One even managed to split the butt of AKM.

you answered the question, just first carried the blizzard

Where exactly?

[73petia]

Quote: Grille

One even managed to split the butt of AKM.

Could break? Does AKM have a butt like plywood?

[svp67]

Submachine gun ERMA EMP

You can see how he influenced our PDP.

[Grid]

In which place?
Moreover, the first PPD appeared two years earlier ...

[svp67]

Quote: Grille

Moreover, the first PPD appeared two years earlier ...

That's just like PPD 40

[Kibb]

90 percent of pre-war PPs are similar, by the way, bolts are also similar.

[Grid]

I ask again. Specifically, what is it like? What again we stole from the Germans?

[jjj]

Thanks to the author. A gap has been filled in the development of automatic small arms between MP-18 and MP-38

[Rjn]

I read that in hand-to-hand there were cases when ours received a bullet in the forehead when the enemy hit the PPSh butt. I think there was such a possibility.

[kos2cool4u]

Quote: RJN

I read that in hand-to-hand there were cases when ours received a bullet in the forehead when the enemy hit the PPSh butt. I think there was such a possibility.

Therefore, our foot soldiers and beat me in a melee obliquely, and not from top to bottom)))) ...

[Tiorted]

What does it mean "rolling the free bolt at the time of the shot" in the context of reducing the rate of fire?