Military Review

Victory Day of the Russian soldiers of Prince Alexander Nevsky over the German knights on Lake Peipsi

166
“In a thunderstorm and lightning the people of Russia glorify their glorious destiny. See the whole history Russian Every encounter turned into overcoming. And the fire and strife only contributed to the greatness of the Russian land. In the splendor of enemy swords, Rus listened to new tales and learned and deepened her inexhaustible creativity. ”
N. Roerich



April 18 in our country celebrates the Day of Military Glory of Russia - Victory Day of the Russian soldiers of Prince Alexander Nevsky over the German knights on Lake Peipsi (Ice Battle, 1242 year).

It is worth noting that the event itself took place on April 5 in the old style, i.e. April 12 on the new, 1242 of the year, but officially the holiday, the Day of Military Glory, is celebrated on April 18. These are the costs of transferring dates from the old to the new. Apparently, when setting the date, the rule was not taken into account: when translating dates of the XII-XIII centuries, 7 days are added to the old style (and 13 days were added by habit).

The situation before the battle

The middle of the thirteenth century was a time of severe tests for Russia. During this period, the Russian land was divided into about a dozen independent states and even more autonomous princely powers. They had several development models: 1) South Russian and West Russian (Kiev, Pereyaslav, Chernigov, Polotsk, Smolensk, Galitsko-Volyn Rus and other principalities). In the previous period, Southern and Western Russia was severely ravaged and weakened by internal strife, the invasion of the so-called. "Mongols" (The myth of the "Mongol-Tatar" invasion; The myth of the "Mongols from Mongolia in Russia"; Russian-Horde Empire), which caused a strong outflow of population in the internal (forest) areas of Russia. This eventually led to the fact that South and Western Russia was incorporated into Hungary, Poland and Lithuania;

2) northeast (Vladimir-Suzdal and Ryazan principalities), which gradually became the new passionary core of Russia with a strong central princely power, the center of unity of all Russian lands;

3) the north-western (Novgorod Republic, and from the XIV century and the Pskov Republic), with the power of the trade-aristocratic elite, which put its narrow group interests above the people, and was ready to surrender territory to the West (German knights, Sweden, Lithuania), only would save your wealth and power. The West, after the capture of a significant part of the Baltic States, tried to extend its power to the north-western lands of Russia. Using the feudal fragmentation of Russia and the "Mongol" invasion, which weakened the military power of the Russian lands, troops of the Crusaders and Swedish feudal lords invaded the north-western borders of Russia.

Influence of Novgorod in Karelia and Finland violated the interests of Rome, which implanted Catholicism in the Baltic States with fire and sword (it was also part of Russia’s sphere of influence), and planned to continue military-religious expansion with the help of German and Swedish feudalists interested in dependent population growth and plunder rich Russian cities. As a result, Novgorod clashed with Sweden and the Livonian Order, behind which stood Rome. Since the second half of the XII century. in the middle of the XV century. The Novgorod Republic was forced 26 times to fight with Sweden and 11 times with the Livonian Order.

At the end of the 1230, Rome prepared a campaign against Russia with the aim of seizing the northwestern Russian lands and planting Catholicism there. Three forces were to take part in it - the German (Teutonic) Order, Sweden and the Danes. In the opinion of Catholic Rome after the Batu invasion, the bloodless and plundered Russia, moreover, divided by the feuds of the great feudal lords, could not provide any serious resistance. The German and Danish knights were supposed to strike at Novgorod from land, from their Livonian possessions, and the Swedes were going to support them from the sea through the Gulf of Finland. In July 1240, the Swedish fleet entered the Neva. The Swedes were planning a sudden blow to take Ladoga, and then Novgorod. However, the brilliant and lightning victory of Prince Alexander Yaroslavich over the Swedes 15 July 1240 on the banks of the Neva temporarily dislodged Sweden from the camp of the enemies.

But another enemy, the Teutonic Order, was much more dangerous. In 1237, the Teutonic Order, who owned Slavic Prussia, teamed up with the Livonian Order of the Sword, thereby extending his power to Livonia. Combining, thus, the forces directed by the Holy See and receiving support from the Holy Roman Empire, the Teutonic knights began to prepare for the "Drang nah Osten". The masters of the West - at this time, the "command center" of the Western world was located in Rome, they planned to seize and subjugate Russia, destroy and partially assimilate the eastern branch of the Rus ethnic group, as they had destroyed the Western ethno-linguistic core of the Russo-European super ethnic group in Central Europe ( the territory of Germany, Austria, Prussia, etc.) - the lands of the Wends-Vendians, Lutus-Lyutichs, the Wake-hearted ones, Ruianes, Porus-Prussians, etc.

At the end of August 1240, Bishop Hermann Derptsky, gathering militia from his subjects and knights of the Order of the Sword, with the support of the Danish knights from Reval, invaded Pskov and seized Izborsk. Pskov gathered militia and decided to recapture their suburbs. An attempt by the Pskov militia in September 1240 to repel the fortress ended in failure. The knights laid siege on Pskov himself, but they could not take it in stride and left. A strong fortress could withstand a long siege, the Germans were not ready for it. But the knights soon took Pskov, taking advantage of betrayal among the besieged. Earlier, the prince-rogue Yaroslav Vladimirovich, who reigned in Pskov, fell down with the boyars inside the city, headed by Pskov posadnik Tverdilo Ivankovich, glittered them with money and power. At night, these traitors let into the enemy's fortress. German governors were planted in Pskov. By the end of 1240, the crusaders settled firmly in the Pskov land and began to prepare for a further offensive, using the previously captured territory as a supporting bridgehead.

The knights acted according to the traditional pattern: they captured the earth, destroyed the enemy's living force of the enemy, terrorized the remaining inhabitants with terror, built their temples (often on the site of already existing shrines), turned them into "holy faith" with fire and sword and erected supporting castles for defense bases captured land and further expansion. So, the knights invaded the Novgorod possessions of Chud and Vod, devastated them, and laid tribute to the inhabitants. They also built a fortress in Koporye. The castle was built on a steep and rocky mountain and it became the base for further advance to the east. Soon after, the crusaders occupied Tesovo, an important trading point in the Novgorod land, and from there it was already within reach of Novgorod.

Novgorod elite at the beginning of the war did not act in the best way. After the Battle of the Neva, when the people greeted the victorious squad of the young prince, the merchant-aristocratic elite of Novgorod, who looked at the prince with suspicion, fearing the growth of its power and influence, quarreled with Alexander Yaroslavich. At a convocation meeting, he was thrown a number of unfair accusations, and the victory over the Swedes was presented as an adventure that brought Novgorod more harm than good. Enraged Alexander Nevsky left Novgorod and with his family left for his inheritance - Pereyaslavl-Zalessky. As a result, the gap with the young, but talented and decisive warlord disastrously affected the position of Novgorod. However, the looming threat led to popular indignation, the Novgorodians forced the boyar "lord" to call on Alexander. Novgorod's ruler Spiridon went to him in Pereyaslavl, who asked the prince to forget the old offenses and lead a speech against the German knights. Alexander at the beginning of 1241, returned to Novgorod, where he was greeted by popular exultation.



Battle on the Ice

In the spring of 1241, the city of Alexander Yaroslavich, at the head of his squad and militia from Novgorod, took Ladorians and Korela Koporye. The fortress was razed, the captured knights were sent hostage to Novgorod, and the Chudi and Vod warriors who served with them were hanged. Then Alexander defeated the enemy’s small detachments, who had been robbing in the vicinity and by the end of 1241, the Novgorod land was almost completely cleared of the enemy. In the winter of 1242, Prince Alexander, together with his brother Andrey, who had brought reinforcements from Vladimir-Suzdal land, beat off Pskov. The German Rhymed Chronicle tells about the capture of Pskov by the troops of Alexander Yaroslavich: “He arrived there with great force; he brought many Russians to free the Pskovs ... When he saw the Germans, he did not hesitate for a long time after that, he expelled both brothers and knights, putting an end to their furry, and all their servants were driven away. ” Pskov boyars, traitors were hanged.

Then the Russian troops, reinforced by the Pskov militia, moved into the lands of the Order. The news of the movement of the Russian troops soon reached Dorpat, and the local bishop turned to the Order for help. The Crusaders gathered a large army, which, with auxiliary troops of the Chud, was ready for a decisive battle. One of the forward detachments of the Russian army was ambushed and defeated. Alexander realized that the knightly army itself is looking for a general battle, decided to give it in favorable conditions. He took his shelves from the Livonian borders and stood on Uzmeni, a narrow channel connecting Peipsi and Pskov lakes, by the Crow stone (a cliff island now hidden by the water of Peipsi). This position was very convenient. Crusaders, passing to the lake, could then go to Novgorod bypassing Lake Peipsi to the north, or Pskov - along the western coast of the Pskov lake to the south. In each of these cases, Alexander Yaroslavich could intercept the enemy, moving along the eastern coast of the lakes. If the Crusaders decided to act directly and tried to overcome the strait in the narrowest place, then they would directly collide with the Russian troops.

Victory Day of the Russian soldiers of Prince Alexander Nevsky over the German knights on Lake Peipsi

Russian army goes to Lake Peipsi. Chronicle miniature

The Teutonic troops, commanded by the landmaster of the Teutonic Order, Andreas von Völven, besides the order knight brothers, included the Dorpat episcopate and Danish knights led by the sons of the Danish king Valdemar II. The German Crusaders were usually built in battle order, known as the “boar's head” (“pigs”). It was a narrow, but rather long column. At the head was a wedge of several narrowed to the front of the ranks of the most experienced and battle-hardened brothers-knights. Behind the wedge, gradually expanding in depth, became squads of squires and knights. The knightly heavily armed cavalry also moved on the sides of the column. In the center of the column there was infantry from hired bollards (from the Baltic tribes subordinate to the Germans), who were assigned a secondary role in the battle (finish off the defeated enemy). Not only could the enemy withstand the blow of a heavy knightly cavalry. Knights on strong horses, like a ram, with a powerful blow, split the enemy's line in two, then crushed it into smaller groups and destroyed them in pieces (already with the participation of infantry). But this construction had its drawbacks. It was almost impossible to keep the order of battle after the main attack. And to maneuver in a situation that suddenly changed during the battle in such a formation was extremely difficult. For this it was necessary to take the army back, to bring it in order.

Knowing this, Alexander Nevsky shock his forces placed on the flanks. The basis of the combat order of the Russian troops of that time were three regiments: the “forehead” —the main regiment located in the center, and the regiments of the “right and left hand”, located along the flanks of the “chela” ledges backwards or forwards. All three regiments constituted one main line. Moreover, the "man" is usually formed from the most prepared warriors. But the Novgorod prince placed the main forces, mainly cavalry, on the flanks. In addition, behind the regiment of the left hand in ambush to bypass the flank and strike the enemy in the rear were the cavalry squads of Alexander and Andrey Yaroslavichi. In the center is located the Novgorod militia, which was to take on the first and most severe blow. Archers stood in front of all, and behind the Russian army, near the steep coast, sleds with sleighs set up with chains were set up to give additional support to the Russian infantry and stop, deprive the enemy cavalry maneuver.

Behind the Russian army was a thick forest overgrown with steep slopes, which excluded the possibility of maneuver; the right flank was protected by a water zone called Sigovitsa. Here, due to some features of the flow and a large number of underground keys, the ice was very fragile. Local residents knew about it and, undoubtedly, informed Alexander. The left flank was protected by a high coastal cape, from where a wide panorama was opened up to the opposite shore. In Soviet historiography, the Ice Battle was considered one of the largest battles in the history of German knight aggression in the Baltic States, and the number of troops on Lake Peipsi was estimated at 10-12 thousand people of the Order and 15-17 thousand Russian people.




Source: Bloodless L. Atlas of maps and diagrams on Russian military history. M., 1946.

The battle took place 5 (12) on April 1242 on the ice of Lake Peipsi. The beginning of the battle "Rhymed Chronicle" describes it like this: "The Russians had many shooters who bravely stepped forward and were the first to take the onslaught before the prince's team." Further: “The banners of the brothers penetrated into the ranks of the gunmen, it was heard how the swords jingle, the helmets were cut, and the fallen fell on the grass from both sides.” Thus, the news of the "Chronicle" about the battle formation of the Russians as a whole is combined with the reports of the Russian chronicles about the allocation of a separate infantry regiment in front of the center of the main forces. In the center, the Germans broke through the ranks of the Russians: “The Germans, on the other hand, chased a pig through shelves.”

Knights broke through the Russian center and got stuck in the train. From the flanks they began to compress the shelves of the right and left hands. “And the evil that was cut off was great by Germans and men, and a snow pipe from spears of breaking, and a sound from a sword section, and you wouldn’t see ice covered with blood,” the chronicler noted. The final change was outlined when the prince's squads entered the battle. The Crusaders began to retreat, which turned into a rout. Part of the knightly troops were driven by Russian warriors to Sigovitsa. In some places, the spring ice broke, and the heavy knights went to the bottom. The victory was left for the Russians. The Russians were chasing the runners on the ice throughout the 7 version.

Captive knights barefoot and with uncovered heads were led on foot, near their horses, to Pskov, captured by hired soldiers. The Livonian Rhymed Chronicle claims that the 20 knight brothers were killed in the Battle of the Ice and 6 were captured, that is, it clearly understates the loss. The Chronicle of the Teutonic Order seems to be more accurate and reports the death of 70 brothers and knights. At the same time, these losses do not take into account the fallen secular knights and other order soldiers. It is also worth remembering that the Germans took into account the death of only brothers-knights. Behind each knight was a “spear” - a combat unit. Each spear consisted of a knight, his squires, servants, swordsmen (or spearmen) and archers. As a rule, the richer a knight was, the more fighters counted his spear. Poor "single-faced" knights could be part of the spear of a rich "brother." Also notable people could be the page (approximate servant) and the first squire. Therefore, in the First Novgorod Chronicle, the losses of the opponents of the Russian are presented as follows: “and ... the fall of the besschisla, and Nѣmets 400, and 50 with the hands of Yash and brought to Novgorod”.

The defeat in the battle on Lake Peipsi forced the Livonian Order to ask for peace: “What we went by the sword ... from that all retreat; how many have your people taken captive, by that we are exchanged: we will let yours go, but you will let ours go. " For the city of Yuriev (Dorpat), the Order pledged to pay Novgorod "Yuryev's tribute". And although the war 1240-1242. did not become the last between the Novgorodians and the Crusaders, their spheres of influence in the Baltic States did not undergo noticeable changes for three centuries - until the end of the XV century.


Battle on the Ice. Miniature of the Facial Chronicle, mid-XVI century

V.A. Serov. Battle on the Ice

Alexander Nevsky after this battle forever entered Russian history as an image of Russian national and state identity. Alexander Yaroslavich shows that no "peaceful coexistence", a compromise with the West is impossible in principle. Russia and the West are two worlds that have different ideological, conceptual beginnings (“matrices”). The Western matrix is ​​materialism - the “golden calf”, slave-owning society is the parasitism of the “elect” over the others, which leads to self-destruction and the death of the whole civilization (hence the modern crisis of capitalism, the white race, humanity and the biosphere as a whole). The Russian matrix is ​​the domination of the ethics of conscience, justice, the pursuit of an ideal society of service and creation (the “Kingdom of God”).

Therefore, Westerners in Russia are trying in every way to blacken and belittle the significance of Alexander Yaroslavich Nevsky and his victories, to knock out one of the foundations from the historical memory of the Russian people. Alexander Yaroslavich is trying to turn from a hero into an antihero who allegedly went to an alliance with the "Mongols" instead of cooperating with the "civilized and enlightened West".


Monument to Russian soldiers of Prince Alexander Nevsky. Installed in 1993 on Mount Sokolikh in Pskov. Designed by sculptor I. I. Kozlovsky and architect P. S. Butenko
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  1. Cartalon
    Cartalon April 18 2017 05: 54 New
    10
    Perhaps this is the last article Samsonov I read, tired.
    1. Mystery12345
      Mystery12345 April 18 2017 06: 47 New
      +6
      the Germans again want to do winter swimming ... they forgot that this is fraught with hypothermia.
      1. tezey
        tezey 12 February 2018 02: 06 New
        0
        About winter swimming. Pay attention to the excerpt from the article - “The banners of the brothers entered the ranks of the shooters, you could hear the swords ringing, helmets being chopped, as the fallen on both sides fell”. So what is winter swimming on the grass. The chronicle is lying or how to understand. Grass does not grow on ice.
    2. igordok
      igordok April 18 2017 07: 12 New
      +6
      The title of the article interested me, but after reading
      South and Western Russia in the previous period was severely devastated and weakened by internal strife, the invasion so called "Mongols" (The myth of the "Mongol-Tatar" invasion; The myth of the "Mongols from Mongolia in Russia"; Russian-Horde Empire)

      I was wary.
      The article is some standard, familiar. V. Shpakovsky, if he reads, will be strongly criticized.
      1. Boris55
        Boris55 April 18 2017 08: 38 New
        +5
        Quote: igordok
        ... I was wary ...

        The so-called Mongol Tatars struck the cross with carriers from the south, almost simultaneously with Nevsky from the north. It was a joint operation to liberate Russia from the yoke of the Christian. They managed to suspend the forcible Christianization of Russia for 300 years. Thanks to them for that.
        1. Velizariy
          Velizariy April 18 2017 08: 52 New
          13
          Vodichki drink pagan) Alexander Nevsky was CHRISTIAN! And now recognized as a saint! And the crusaders were Catholics, whom Christians consider heretics.
          Yes, and decide already, then you have Vladimir 9 million out of 12 killed the rest baptized, now now Christianization has moved forward for 600 years))) compose on the go, or rather they compose for you, over the hillock and overseas.
          And who hit from the south? Smolensk? If from the north of Novgorod.
          1. activator
            activator April 18 2017 09: 09 New
            +7
            [quote = Velizariy] Vodichki drink pagan) Alexander Nevsky was CHRISTIAN! And now recognized as a saint! And the crusaders were Catholics, whom Christians consider heretics. [/ Quote]
            That is, in your opinion, Catholics are not Christians? [quote = Velizariy] Yes, and decide already, then you have Vladimir 9 million out of 12 killed the rest, then now Christianization has moved forward 600 years))) compose on the go, or rather, compose for you, over the hillock and overseas. [/ quoteWell, a person is at least interested in something and is looking for the truth, but they have compiled for you a hillock and you have no desire to remove spaghetti from your ears.
            1. Velizariy
              Velizariy April 18 2017 09: 33 New
              +6
              Catholics call themselves Christians, but in reality they have departed from Christ.
              The man is confused in the testimony)))
          2. Boris55
            Boris55 April 18 2017 10: 04 New
            +2
            Quote: Velizariy
            Water drink pagan

            I do not drink and do not advise you. Gentile - I'm yelling, I'm talking. All people are pagans - speaking.
            Quote: Velizariy
            Alexander Nevsky was CHRISTIAN!

            Who told you this?
            Quote: Velizariy
            Yes, and decide already, then you have Vladimir 9 million of 12 killed the rest baptized

            Tell me at least one country where Christianity would come without violence against the local population. Is it really Russia?
            “... and the prophet of this or that dreamer must be put to death for persuading you to depart from the Lord your God ...” (Deuteronomy 13: 5).
            “Do not leave the spells alive (Exodus 22: 18).
            Bearing crosses destroyed the local elite, seized power and turned the people into slaves.
            1. Velizariy
              Velizariy April 18 2017 10: 45 New
              +8
              “... and the prophet of this or that dreamer must be put to death for persuading you to depart from the Lord your God ...” (Deuteronomy 13: 5).
              “Do not leave the spells alive (Exodus 22: 18).
              This is from the Old Testament, but you don’t know about it ... because you simply don’t know anything on the subject, they told you and you believed without checking, this is stupid.
              This was told to the Jews about specific peoples and there were seven of them who surpassed the present Europe in the abominations, specifically it was written what they did even with their children.
              Sparrows ... God is One and only He dominates the course of life, and sparrows try to steer the course of life by God and the book you cited says how to identify a prince or a prophet who needs to be destroyed, read, bother) And do not use your little book with quotes - they are not complete and do not reflect the meaning.
              It is written: if the prophet says something and it does not come true, then he is not from God, and that one)
              And Christ said: Love your enemies and bless those who curse you.
              What are you yelling, I don’t know, but the pagan is from the Slovenian language, i.e. people. carried away by popular beliefs, separated from God.
              PS drink some water, it is necessary for the body and the brain in particular.
              1. Boris55
                Boris55 April 18 2017 11: 01 New
                +2
                Quote: Velizariy
                This is from the Old Testament, but you are not aware of this.

                Maybe even abandon the 10 commandments, are they from the Old Testament? laughing
                Quote: Velizariy
                This was told to Jews about specific peoples

                And what do you think, who is now with the money? Are not those who in the name of Christ enslaved the nations? Who are the heads of those corporations that rule the world?

                Deuteronomy:
                4.1 So, Israel, listen to the decrees and laws that I [today] teach you to follow so that you may live [and multiply] and go and inherit the land that the Lord God of your fathers gives you [as an inheritance];
                23.19 Don’t give to your brother (by context - Jew) in growth neither silver, nor bread, nor anything else that can be given to growth;
                23.20 give it to a foreigner (i.e., non-Jew) to growth, and do not give your brother to growth, so that the Lord your God (i.e. the devil, if you look at the essence of recommendations in good faith) bless you in everything that made by your hands on the earth into which you go to possess it ”;
                28.12 and you will lend to many nations, but you yourself will not borrow [and you will dominate many nations, but they will not dominate you]
                Book of the Prophet Isaiah:
                60.10 Then the sons of the foreigners will build your walls, and their kings will serve you; ...
                60.11 And ​​your gates will be opened, they will not be closed day or night, so that the wealth of the nations may be brought to you, and their kings will be brought.
                60.12 For the nations and kingdoms that do not want to serve you will perish, and such nations will be completely destroyed. ”

                Quote: Velizariy
                ... and healers are trying to steer past God through the course of life ...

                Past God - this is what the priests do. Vorozhechi, the sorcerers took care of the clan of their tribe, and who cares about the current priests?

                God speaks to each of us in the language of our life circumstances. No priest can replace our conscience and shame - God's management tools.
                1. Velizariy
                  Velizariy April 18 2017 12: 55 New
                  +4
                  Quote: Boris55
                  God speaks to each of us in the language of our life circumstances. No priest can replace our conscience and shame - God's management tools.

                  Tell it to those who blew up dozens of children alive in Aleppo or those who arranged for Beslan.
                2. Velizariy
                  Velizariy April 18 2017 12: 56 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Boris55
                  Past God - this is what the priests do. Vorozhechi, the sorcerers took care of the clan of their tribe, and who cares about the current priests?

                  Yes? Have you ever known one priest personally?) And where did that tribe go about that the Magi cared for?)))
            2. Velizariy
              Velizariy April 18 2017 10: 54 New
              +7
              Quote: Boris55
              Tell me at least one country where Christianity would come without violence against the local population. Is it really Russia?

              Armenia, Georgia, Roman Empire, Serbia, Czech Republic, Russia, etc. and so on
              Where did the heresy of the Latin papists go and how it was planted? It does not interest me. These are NOT Christians, these are heretics. And let them be responsible for themselves. But you don’t even know that.
              1. Boris55
                Boris55 April 18 2017 11: 15 New
                +3
                Quote: Velizariy
                Armenia, Georgia, Roman Empire, Serbia, Czech Republic, Russia, etc. and so on

                Blessed is he who believes. laughing
                Quote: Velizariy
                These are NOT Christians, these are heretics

                In the same way, they consider us heretics. Nothing new. Divide, bleed and conquer. Congratulations, you are already in this scheme.
                ps
                Jesus was sent to the Jewish tribe at a crucial stage in their life. Why are Russian instructions to God not intended for us?
                1. Polkanov
                  Polkanov April 18 2017 11: 44 New
                  +6
                  ... uncle, just don’t throw me in a thorn bush. Borya, are you from Russia for sure, or not from where? Looks like tradition has passed your little head ...
                2. Velizariy
                  Velizariy April 18 2017 12: 54 New
                  +2
                  You have not read any of the Testaments if you carry such nonsense ... In the New Testament there is a lot about other nations and that there are no differences in nations if they are in God.
                  Quote: Boris55
                  Divide, bleed and conquer.

                  There is no word “play off” in this principle.
                  Write about the massacre in Georgia organized by Christians, well, or in Armenia)
                  Quote: Boris55
                  In the same way, they consider us heretics.

                  Who are you? They also consider you idolaters)))
                  1. Boris55
                    Boris55 April 18 2017 15: 05 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Velizariy
                    Write about the massacre in Georgia organized by Christians, well, or in Armenia)

                    Have you heard a thread about Persia? And which countries today are located on the territory that Persia occupied - can you imagine? And what about Purim, about Aman’s ears, what did they hear the thread?
                    1. Velizariy
                      Velizariy April 18 2017 15: 47 New
                      +1
                      And Purim and Christianity? do not confuse it with Judaism)
                      And what is the Christian country in the territory of the former Persian empire?
                      1. Boris55
                        Boris55 April 18 2017 16: 03 New
                        +4
                        Quote: Velizariy
                        And Purim and Christianity? you don’t confuse it with Judaism

                        Since you heard something about the Bible, I will explain on it. The Old Testament is the Jewish Torah, the New Testament is Christianity. The Old Testament is an instruction for enslavement, the New Testament is an instruction for keeping enslaved peoples in obedience. They are one, performing different tasks to achieve one goal - the enslavement of the whole world.
                        Quote: Velizariy
                        And what is the Christian country in the territory of the former Persian empire?

                        Georgia, Armenia, etc.
              2. activator
                activator April 18 2017 12: 22 New
                +3
                Quote: Velizariy
                Armenia, Georgia, Roman Empire, Serbia, Czech Republic, Russia, etc. and so on
                Listen to this rubbish there was no festivities, but there was a massacre, and there are references to this.
                Quote: Velizariy
                Catholics call themselves Christians, but in reality they have departed from Christ.

                Here I would like your explanations.
                1. Velizariy
                  Velizariy April 18 2017 12: 57 New
                  +2
                  Books to help you.
                  1. activator
                    activator April 18 2017 13: 08 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Velizariy
                    Books to help you.

                    Ok drain protected. yes
              3. Nehist
                Nehist April 18 2017 12: 55 New
                +2
                Ha ha three times !!! You should at least be interested in the history of Christianity! How much when and where in the name of Christ blood was shed and how genocide flourished!
                1. Velizariy
                  Velizariy April 18 2017 13: 07 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Nehist
                  genocide flourished!

                  For instance?
                  1. activator
                    activator April 18 2017 14: 08 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Velizariy
                    For instance?

                    Oh, it’s so natural to require notarized arguments from others and send to Google in search of their good
            3. Operator
              Operator April 18 2017 11: 56 New
              +5
              Quote: Boris55
              I'm yelling, I'm talking

              What do you smoke - "yelling" means taking.

              Pagans - from the word "language", this is a literal Slavic translation of the Greek word "ethnos" used in the Greek version of the Bible (New Testament) to refer to not Jews and not Christians.

              In the Latin version of the New Testament, the term paganus - provincial - was used to refer to non-Jews and non-Christians. Hence the second Slavic designation of neither Jews nor Christians is filthy.

              In the original Aramaic version of the New Testament, the term "goy" was used to refer to non-Jews and non-Christians by analogy with the Old Testament.
        2. BAI
          BAI April 18 2017 17: 55 New
          +2
          Oh, for which I like to read comments, because they are always in the subject. When discussing the battle: it was - it was not, if it was, then where and when, how much participated and how many died, questions of religion are of the greatest importance!
      2. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker April 18 2017 11: 21 New
        +3
        Quote: igordok
        Southern and Western Russia in the previous period was severely devastated and weakened by internal strife, the invasion of the so-called. "Mongols" (The myth of the "Mongol-Tatar" invasion; The myth of the "Mongols from Mongolia in Russia"; Russian-Horde Empire)
        I was wary.

        And then ......
        wassat
        How the Germans were beaten-et-da-ah-ah-ah ...
        But how about the invasion
        the invasion of the so-called. "Mongols" (The myth of the "Mongol-Tatar" invasion; The myth of the "Mongols from Mongolia in Russia"; the Russian-Horde Empire), which caused a strong outflow of the population to the internal (forest) regions of Russia. This ultimately led to the fact that South and Western Russia was included in Hungary, Poland and Lithuania;

        it wasn’t like that. As well as the Tatar (Mongolian) light cavalry as part of the army of A. Nevsky. It remains to delete the last of the annals of the Battle of Grunwald .....
        But Shletser and co-comrades accused of forgery - this is correct - "... but Soviet scientists found out ..."
        laughing
        1. activator
          activator April 18 2017 12: 38 New
          +3
          Quote: stalkerwalker
          But how about the invasion
          It’s not clear who they are, because the nomads organized themselves very quickly and enlightened, as one historian asserted here, that yesterday's cattle breeders created almost an analogue of the Silicon Valley. They invited the best scientists and so on, where it’s all evaporated. I already posted the drawings of Genghis Khan repeat This is how the Genghis Khan drew Pierre Duflo, it looks not Tatar-Mongolian at all.
          1. stalkerwalker
            stalkerwalker April 18 2017 13: 17 New
            +5
            Quote: activator
            This is how the Genghis Khan drew Pierre Duflo, it looks not Tatar-Mongolian at all.

            At the dawn of Soviet power, portraits of the leader of the world proletariat in the republics of Central Asia looked with facial features inherent in the inhabitants of the area, i.e. "our Ilyich" came out well as a pure Central Asian ...... Or "Genghiside" ...
            laughing
            1. activator
              activator April 18 2017 13: 55 New
              +3
              Quote: stalkerwalker
              At the dawn of Soviet power, portraits of the leader of the world proletariat in the republics of Central Asia looked with facial features inherent in the inhabitants of the area, i.e. "our Ilyich" came out well as a pure Central Asian ...... Or "Genghiside" ...

              Oh, how do you immediately anathema something that does not correspond to your beliefs, only why do you need to believe other sources and chronicles? which can also be written for the sake of someone and not correspond to reality? Therefore, let's do it without double standards. Marco Polo, in his book on the world’s arrangement, Genghis Khan also drew quite a European for himself, the picture is not inserted, I will give the link http://peshera.org/khrono/Fotos-08/foto-657.jpg
              Based on DNA analysis, Mongolian and Korean scientists found that Genghis Khan was a European. The British in their encyclopedia portray Genghis Khan's wife as quite European, and she is quite popular with them.
              .
              1. stalkerwalker
                stalkerwalker April 18 2017 14: 01 New
                +3
                Quote: activator
                Mongolian and Korean scholars based on DNA analysis found that Genghis Khan was a European.

                Who is arguing? Let it be European, of Iranian descent.
                Quote: activator
                Oh how do you immediately anathema

                What is another anathema? In the article, the theme of the invasion of nomads was criticized - they say there wasn’t such a thing, they made their own goats to each other. And the old Russian chronicles about the "Tatar" Schletser with Miller (whose great-great-great-grandson of Gazprom steers) dabbled in leisure time from non-figs.
                1. activator
                  activator April 18 2017 15: 32 New
                  +2
                  Quote: stalkerwalker
                  In the article, the theme of the invasion of nomads was criticized - they say there wasn’t such a thing, they made their own goats to each other.

                  Yes, in general, it seems that there were no hordes of nomads, but the Christians were with whom the Orthodox fought a civil war.
              2. Operator
                Operator April 18 2017 14: 04 New
                +3
                No need to fake - there is a star cluster of the descendants of Genghis Khan (Genghisides), all of them relate as one to the carriers of the haplogroup С2 - purebred Mongols.
                1. activator
                  activator April 18 2017 14: 42 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Operator
                  No need to fake - there is a star cluster of the descendants of Genghis Khan (Genghisides), all of them relate as one to the carriers of the haplogroup С2 - purebred Mongols.

                  Well, as for the drawings, this is a claim to their authors, about dna analysis taken from here https://life.ru/t/science/903983/chinghiskhan_okaza
                  lsia_ievropieitsiem
                  1. Operator
                    Operator April 18 2017 15: 45 New
                    +2
                    This is DNA analysis data from a single grave in Western Mongolia. Nomadic arias (haplogroup R1a) and Celts (haplogroup R1b) passed through the territory of Mongolia at different times. But the vast majority of the population of Mongolia have always been Mongols (haplogroup С3 / С2 according to the new nomenclature).

                    Detailed information about the find of R1b in Western Mongolia:
                    "Genghis Khan had at least a dozen children, including eight sons, passing on the Y-chromosomal haplogroup by inheritance. His children, in turn, gave birth to a lot of descendants. The eldest son alone left 40 sons, whose names are known (one of them headed the Golden Horde).
                    Chinggis's grandchildren reproduced no less intensively; they also had dozens of sons. If all of them were carriers of the haplogroup R1b-M343, then the total number of its representatives in modern East Asia should be in the millions. They should include all direct descendants of the Yuan dynasty (China), the khans of the Golden Horde, the Hulaguids in Persia, the Girei in the Crimea, the Tugluktimurids in Mogulia and Moghulistan, the Sheibanids and Ashtarkhanids in Bukhara, numerous Mongol and Kazakh Chingizids (Torah), as well as Tatar, Nogai and Russian, not to mention many others. By the most conservative estimates, there are at least hundreds of thousands of them.

                    However, in fact, carriers of the R1b-M343 in Asia are endangered. They are only in Bashkiria, where Genghisides are just a deficit.

                    At the same time, the hypothesis that Genghis Khan belonged to one of the haplogroups C3c-M48 does not have such problems. The mutation separating her from related haplogroups arose about 1000 years ago (by molecular clock) and may belong to Genghis Khan himself or his ancestors from the Borjigins, perhaps even to the legendary Bodonchar simpleton. "
                    http://matveychev-oleg.livejournal.com/4069167.ht
                    ml

                    The few arias and Celts in the steppe belt beyond the Urals were assimilated by the Mongols and became one of the Turks - Turkmens (60% R1b), Kyrgyz (55% R1a), Tatars (40% R1a) and Bashkirs (40%).
                    1. venaya
                      venaya April 18 2017 17: 31 New
                      +4
                      Quote: Operator
                      "Genghis Khan had at least a dozen children, including eight sons, passing on the Y-chromosomal haplogroup by inheritance. His children, in turn, gave birth to a lot of descendants. The eldest son alone left 40 sons, whose names are known (one of them headed the Golden Horde).
                      "were assimilated by the Mongols and became one of the Turks"

                      You are generally able to understand what you are writing: it turns out that the inhabitants of modern Mongolia have become Türks. And why is it that they do not speak the languages ​​of the Turkic language group? And in general, is there such an ethnos as “Türks”, or is it still more competent to talk about the peoples of different ethnic groups who speak similar languages ​​belonging to the very “Turkic language group”. By the way, the origin of these languages ​​began about 16 thousand years ago in the southern Urals - Northern Kazakhstan. Only then did the people of the haplogroup "C" not live there, but the haplogroup "R1b" was present and they attribute the primacy of the creation of all the Turkic languages. Even more impressive is the description by you of all the relatives of the obviously mythical Genghis Khan, because scientific evidence of the reality of his existence has not yet been proved, and the name (position) has clear signs of its Türkic-speaking, which have nothing to do with the languages ​​of modern Mongols. You at least decide: where are the myths being implanted, and where is the scientific reality. And then you got porridge from various sources, this needs to be fixed.
                      1. Operator
                        Operator April 18 2017 17: 40 New
                        +2
                        Türks are ethnic groups of different origin (Celts, Aryans, Semites, Ugro-Finns), speaking dialects of the same Mongolian language.

                        This is called language assimilation. Plus, the change in phenotype (appearance) to Mongoloid.

                        Think at your leisure who assimilated whom laughing
      3. cost
        cost April 21 2017 23: 21 New
        +2
        In the winter of 1242, Prince Alexander, along with his brother Andrei, who brought reinforcements from the Vladimir-Suzdal land, recaptured Pskov. The German Rhymed Chronicle tells of the capture of Pskov by the troops of Alexander Yaroslavich

        Stunned. New fresh presentation of domestic history. The capture of Pskov by the army of the Great Vladimir-Suzdal Prince Andrei Yaroslavich is now presented as the victory of Alexander Nevsky! But didn’t he defeat Napoleon? But didn’t fight the Basmachi in Turkestan?
    3. Olgovich
      Olgovich April 18 2017 09: 07 New
      +7
      Quote: Cartalon
      Perhaps this is the last article Samsonov I read, tired.

      Well, everything except the "attack of the United States and England on Germany, AVENGRIA and Russia in the WWII" and the "service and building society" can be read. With reservations.
      1. V.ic
        V.ic April 18 2017 18: 48 New
        +2
        Quote: Olgovich
        Well, everything except the "attack" USA and England to Germany To Hungary and Russia in the WWII "and" the society of service and creation "can be read. With reservations.

        Now go through the article from beginning to end. Where did you see in the article mentioned by you? “Shine with intellect”, crystal bakery, mention the intrigues of the Bolsheviks ... After all, for anything else you are missing /... you are missing ... lol
    4. RUSS
      RUSS April 18 2017 12: 02 New
      +3
      Quote: Cartalon
      Perhaps this is the last article Samsonov I read, tired.

      It’s good that at least Samsonov was behind the topic of revolutions laughing
      1. kalibr
        kalibr April 18 2017 18: 46 New
        0
        But the vegetable from one garden came out not sweeter than from another!
    5. avva2012
      avva2012 April 18 2017 15: 28 New
      +1
      Perhaps this is the last article by Samsonov .... Here, you are so categorically in vain. The most interesting in Samsonov’s articles is comments. No author causes such a heated debate.
      1. Thunderbolt
        Thunderbolt April 18 2017 22: 19 New
        +1
        Quote: activator
        This is how the Genghis Khan drew Pierre Duflo, it looks not Tatar-Mongolian at all.
        So what? Duflos is an authority on this issue? The years of his life hinted (1742-1816) that he was far from those times both by years and distances. He lived calmly in his Paris and fantasized beautifully. You would have seen how he depicted Timur and then all questions would have disappeared and would not have exposed the engraver as an authoritative source))).
        P.S. Reminds how in Russian pictures sometimes depicted never-before-seen elephants.)))
    6. The comment was deleted.
  2. Ivan Tartugai
    Ivan Tartugai April 18 2017 06: 42 New
    +2
    From 1958 to 1966, the Academy of Sciences of the USSR conducted active and extensive search-research on the Battle of the Ice, however, it did not find material evidence of the existence of the battle. And later searches were carried out, but nothing was found to confirm that the battle was as described in the annals. Everything is the same as in the Battle of Kulikovo, i.e. there is a battle on the papers, but there is no material evidence. Moreover, on papers every year, the picture of the battle is being refined, new details are being put into circulation, who stood where, where they ran, where they died, where they won, and there were no material confirmations.
    1. Mystery12345
      Mystery12345 April 18 2017 06: 52 New
      +8
      Quote: Ivan Tartugay
      From 1958 to 1966, the Academy of Sciences of the USSR conducted active and extensive search-research on the Battle of the Ice, however, it did not find material evidence of the existence of the battle.

      What did you want to find? all armor thrown and left for us? naive people ...
      1. Ivan Tartugai
        Ivan Tartugai April 18 2017 11: 30 New
        +1
        Quote Mystery12345:
        “... what did you want to find? all armor thrown and left for us? naive people ... "

        After the battle in the Teutoburg Forest between the Germans and the Roman army, which took place in September 9, AD there are not a few material confirmations. About 10-12 thousand people took part in the battle from the Romans, the battle itself was not in one place, divided into several battles in the forest during the retreat of the Romans, and still, several thousand items of military ammunition, fragments of swords, armor, were found at the battle site instruments, including signed ones.
        Or do you think that conscious ancient romans and ancient germans “All armor thrown and left for us”? Naive people ....
        In addition, 5 group graves of that time were found, and on the bones of the dead there were traces of edged weapons of swords, spears, arrows, etc.
        But the battle took place 1231 earlier than the Battle of the Ice.
        And the resources that we used for archaeological research on Lake Peipsi are much more powerful than in the Teutoburg Forest.
        And the result of “zero” is not that thousands of items of military ammunition, so not a single one at all, and there are not a single burials of dead participants in the battle. Even the place of battle itself is unknown, whether on ice, or maybe not. And with the time of year there are disagreements in the annals.
        1. Alexey-74
          Alexey-74 April 19 2017 11: 03 New
          +1
          And what do you want to say that there was no Battle of the Ice and the Battle of Kulikovo? Material evidence does not always remain, and one example does not need to be superimposed on another. Enough documentary evidence, and not only Russian chronicles, but also German, Swedish chronicles .... and there is a historical memory of any people.
          1. co-creator
            co-creator April 19 2017 17: 52 New
            +2
            Quote: Alexey-74
            And what do you want to say that there was no Battle of the Ice and the Battle of Kulikovo?

            They were of course, but apparently not in these places or greatly exaggerated.
            All so-called document lists.
    2. kalibr
      kalibr April 18 2017 07: 02 New
      +8
      igordok No not much. Since this is a diagnosis. The funny thing is that according to the battle of all sources, these are our annals and the Rhymed Chronicle. Ours, the less ancient, the scarcer. Details appear years after 150 after the battle. Here was my great material with an analysis of all the annals. And referring to Beskorovny and his cards ... is ridiculous. And they made their way not through the "regiments", but through the "regiment". The earliest is the Lavrentievsky Chronicle. It must be read before writing opus. And then this: "The Life of Alexander Nevsky." WE HAVE NO OTHER SOURCES, just not. Therefore, we can say that the battle was. But the historian simply has no right to think about sledges, steep shores and other beautiful places!
      1. Niccola Mack
        Niccola Mack April 18 2017 07: 41 New
        +3
        And referring to Beskorovny and his cards ... is ridiculous.

        The topic has been ideologized to the limit - almost everyone knows about the "Battle of the Ice". And then they already painted maps, "curlicues", "details". And Eisenstein is almost indisputable authority.
        What impresses me most is Klim Zhukov’s look (popularly, Puchkov’s “intelligence inquiry”) - a rather sober view of things - although not without questions. But most importantly, the volume of real conclusions approximately corresponds to scarce data from the annals.
        And he’s not shy to use the words “perhaps”, “probably”, “we don’t know for sure”.

        In any case, the assertion that the battle was on ice is clearly untenable (although they could then drive someone there).
        1. BAI
          BAI April 18 2017 10: 51 New
          0
          “The banners of the brothers entered the ranks of the shooters, one could hear the swords ringing, helmets being chopped, as the fallen on both sides fell on the grass.”

          What kind of ice (ice) are we talking about? There was not even snow!
          1. Niccola Mack
            Niccola Mack April 18 2017 11: 55 New
            +3
            What kind of ice (ice) are we talking about? There was not even snow!

            That's it, April 18 (according to a new p.) - and even during the Medieval climate optimum. The ice could be thin, and with frequent wormwood. He could have kept a single pedestrian in half with a sin, equestrian - definitely not.
        2. co-creator
          co-creator April 19 2017 17: 55 New
          +2
          Quote: Nikkola Mac
          I am most impressed by the look of Klim Zhukov

          A sober look? Yes, he campaigns forever under the fly. One of his approaches to the story of history shows that he is the same historian as the goblin himself.
      2. igordok
        igordok April 18 2017 07: 43 New
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        Here was my great material with an analysis of all the annals.

        I remember this. If I am not mistaken, this was your first article on VO. Well, or the first one I noticed.
        1. kalibr
          kalibr April 18 2017 10: 13 New
          +3
          Quote: igordok
          I noticed.

          This is more accurate. The first was ... oh, how long. About trench 37-mm guns. And in this one there were even photocopies of pages from Pravda and some Moscow newspaper. We had such a sad period in history.
      3. The comment was deleted.
    3. igordok
      igordok April 18 2017 07: 27 New
      +3
      The massacre of ice most likely occurred on a swampy shore, and as usual it was sacked, as well as the place of the Battle of Kulikovo. All iron, like other metals, was either collected or processed or used without modification. The only thing that could remain on the battlefield is unnoticed arrowheads and maybe spearheads.
      An interesting video on these battles. True, it should be borne in mind that Klim Zhukov, an infantry antagonist, a clear champion of the horse army.
      Cannot insert, such as an unsafe connection.
      https://youtu.be/nELIn91ST3Q
      https://youtu.be/kzprgr6EBH8
    4. Hantengri
      Hantengri April 18 2017 08: 16 New
      +2
      Quote: Ivan Tartugay
      Everything is the same as in the Battle of Kulikovo, i.e. there is a battle on the papers, but there is no material evidence.

      Everything is there, comrade. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUWgzw9fjU8 Only the battle was not quite the same as in the old reconstructions.
      1. Ivan Tartugai
        Ivan Tartugai April 18 2017 19: 59 New
        +1
        Quote: HanTengri
        Only the battle was not quite like that


        If as you write "the battle was not quite like that", then it means in your opinion there was another battle, and not the Battle of the Ice and the Battle of Kulikovo.
        But then this is another story, and the unknown story of an unknown battle and whether it was, is also a question.
        1. Hantengri
          Hantengri April 18 2017 20: 45 New
          +2
          Quote: Ivan Tartugay
          If, as you write, “the battle was not quite like that,” then it means that your battle was different, not the Battle of the Ice and the Battle of Kulikovo.

          I write: "Only the battle was not quite the same as in the old reconstructions." .Those. reconstruction of the Battle of Kulikovo 19v (well, what is taught at the school), and reconstruction of the Battle of Kulikovo 21v. (after the discovery of Kulikov field and the result of excavations on it), these are two very big differences. As I understand it, my video lecture, Oleg Dvurechensky (this is an archaeologist who found Kulikovo Field and excavates it), you, a neighbor, have not watched. Sorry.
          1. co-creator
            co-creator April 19 2017 18: 12 New
            +2
            Quote: HanTengri
            I write: "Only the battle was not quite the same as in the old reconstructions." .Those. reconstruction of the Battle of Kulikovo 19v (well, what is taught at the school), and reconstruction of the Battle of Kulikovo 21v

            This is as if excuse no more. If there are no burials, then reduce the number of soldiers. No finds. it means everything is collected. From this it is a logical conclusion, there could not be any Mongol-Tatars since, according to this logic, there were so few of them that they physically could not make any trips.

            He found the way of burial, or what?

            ps By the way, Fomenko wrote about the same, but he is ridiculed. It’s strange.
            1. Hantengri
              Hantengri April 19 2017 18: 56 New
              +2
              Traces of the battle were found exactly where indicated in the sources (between the Don and Nepryadva). Is this not enough? What do you think should have found tons of iron and piles of bones?
              1. Operator
                Operator April 19 2017 19: 01 New
                +1
                . ”The place where there was a major battle,” said Nikolai Ovechkin, an employee of the Kulikovo Field Museum, “to the left of the former village of Mokhovoe, which is 9 kilometers south of the village of Monastyrshchino. There we raised a lot of arrowheads, fragments of armor, eastern sabers. ”

                http://matveychev-oleg.livejournal.com/2652369.ht
                ml
                1. Operator
                  Operator April 19 2017 19: 15 New
                  +1
                  "Out of sight of both current and former historians of the Battle of Kulikovo, an important fact remained: the word" mouth "at that time meant the source of the river.

                  Such usage is documented in all lists of the Novgorod first annals of the older and younger versions known from manuscripts of the XIV and XV centuries. This annals speak of the end of the war between Veliky Novgorod and Sweden:
                   This is 6831 [1323]. Walking over Novgorod with Prince Yuryem and setting the city on the mouth of the Neva, on Orekhov Island; the same ambassadors who arrived are great from the king of sows and the dokonchash, the world forever and ever with the prince and with Novy Novgorod on the old toll.
                   
                  Here we are talking about building half a century before the Kulikovo battle of the Russian fortress Oreshek (later - Shlisselburg). "Nut Island" is located in the upper reaches of the Neva River when it flows from Lake Ladoga. The phrase "at the mouth of the Neva" means: at the source of the Neva.
                   
                  If the historians of the Battle of Kulikovo, not limited to the current understanding of the words “mouth of the Nepryadva”, would turn to the history of the Russian language sufficiently or read especially carefully not only fragments of the well-known chronicles of the XIV-XV centuries where this battle is described, then the problem could not to arise.

                  Our outstanding linguist Academician Izmail Ivanovich Sreznevsky completed the publication of the Old Russian Dictionary compiled by him more than a hundred years ago. The first edition of his last volume was published in St. Petersburg in the 1903 year, the second edition (reprint) - in five thousand copies - in Moscow in the 1958 year. In this book, at the beginning of the last century, the necessary explanation could be read:
                   Ust - the mouth of the river <...> the source of the river: at the mouth - at the source - Postavisha city at the mouth of the Neva, on Orekhovy Island (a reference to the first Novgorod chronicle is given).
                   
                  Neva flows from Lake Ladoga. Indirectly, it once flowed out of the existing and now, but now very small Volov Lake, before its shallowing, leaving traces of the channel of its former headwaters near it. Information that in the first half of the 17th century this lake served as the source of some rivers of the Kulikovo field can be found in an important source of that time - the “Book of the Big Drawing”. The oldest map of Russia itself has not been preserved, but its most detailed description, compiled according to the “sovereign decree” in 1627, has been published more than once.

                  In the publication issued by the Academy of Sciences in 1950, taking into account all the lists known by then, you can read a fairly clear hint regarding the source of Nepryadva:
                   The Upa river flowed from Lake Volova from the top of the Nepryadva river, <...> from the Kulikov field from Muravsky shlyakh.
                   
                  There are detailed (large-scale, hand-drawn) maps of the counties of the Tula province, compiled at the end of the XVIII century for the needs of a general land survey. On these maps it is seen that the lake located in the center of Kulikovo field and already radically shrinking by that time in size of Volovo Lake was separated by only a hundred fathoms from the stream that gives rise to the Nepryadva River.
                   
                  The testimony of sources clearly indicates that the battle of the 1380 of the year took place near the then source ("mouth") of the Nepryadva River, in the central part of the Kulikovo field - at a distance of approximately 50 kilometers from the confluence of this river in the Don.
                   
                  Accordingly, it is advisable for our archaeologists, who in recent decades have been particularly intensively, but unsuccessfully, to search for traces of the mass graves of tens of thousands of Russian soldiers who died in the Kulikovo Field, to relocate the area of ​​their field work. Then the surprising insignificance of the remains of weapons found hitherto during excavations in this field would have received its natural explanation. "

                  http://pereformat.ru/2013/01/kulikovskaya-bitva/

                  PS Historical dudes (professionals, damn it) have been digging the soil for decades at the place where Nepryadva flows into the Don instead of reading written documents, which clearly explains that the “mouth” in medieval chronicles means the “source” of the river, and then move it to 50 km your asses and finally start working on the authentic Kulikovo field.
                  1. Operator
                    Operator April 19 2017 19: 32 New
                    +1
                    I cannot deny myself the pleasure of naming the last of the series of dunce historians who, in 1995, led the archaeological excavations of artifacts of the Kulikovo battle for 50 km from its location:

                    Candidate of Historical Sciences M.I. Chasing
                    Candidate of Historical Sciences O.V. Dvurechensky

                    "The country must know its" heroes "(C)
                2. Hantengri
                  Hantengri April 19 2017 19: 16 New
                  +1
                  Link is empty
                  1. Operator
                    Operator April 19 2017 19: 21 New
                    0
                    Then the search query for Yandex:
                    Found the place of the Battle of Kulikovo, which was searched for six centuries by matveychev_oleg livejournal
              2. co-creator
                co-creator April 19 2017 23: 59 New
                0
                Quote: HanTengri
                Traces of the battle were found exactly where indicated in the sources (between the Don and Nepryadva). Is this not enough? What do you think should have found tons of iron and piles of bones?

                1. They didn’t find anything special.
                2. Burials must be mandatory and very strange that they are not.
                3. He himself said that there were many Russian settlements. So the raids on them were certain and why then, after such finds, decided that it was the Battle of Kulikovo? It is likely that these findings of small battles when the Russians defended their settlements.
    5. Quintus sertorius
      Quintus sertorius April 19 2017 14: 57 New
      +1
      The author is a prisoner of delusions half a century ago. A whole scientific expedition was looking for a battlefield in the 60s. These studies ended not only with the recognized fact that there was no battle on ice. The place of the battle was determined (with material evidence) - not on ice. On the ice pursued the retreating. But the folk myth about the Battle of Ice so stuck in memory that it is hard to part with it.
      The battle was, but not the worst. The Livonian Order is at least 300 knights, i.e. It is unlikely that more than a third of the Order’s troops participated in the battle. Here is the son of Nevsky Dmitry really fought with the whole order, but not always successfully, and this is a completely different story. (source - own coursework 1991.)
    6. Aleksandr1981
      Aleksandr1981 April 23 2017 06: 40 New
      +1
      Complete nonsense!!! About 10 years ago, archaeologist Oleg Dvurechensky found the site of the "Don Battle". During the excavation, more than 22 finds were found in the search area No. 100: arrowheads and copies, crosses, and elements of armor. Official science recognized the find as a fact. So read less Fomenko !!!!!. On the Internet there are lectures of Dvurechensky about excavations, if you are interested in the topic, be sure to look.
  3. Mar.Tirah
    Mar.Tirah April 18 2017 07: 24 New
    +1
    Quote: Mystery12345
    What did you want to find? all armor thrown and left for us? naive people ...

    The fact is that not one of the sources telling about the Battle of the Ice says a word about at least someone falling through the ice and drowning! Neither Russian sources - Novgorod I chronicle of the elder edition and "The Life of Alexander Nevsky" (created in the same XIII century), nor German - "The Elder Livonian Rhymed Chronicle" (also of the XIII century) or later, created in the XV - XVI centuries. The Rhymed Chronicle only states that the Order brothers were defeated and lost 20 killed and 6 prisoners, and that part of the knights of the Dorpat bishop fled from the battlefield. Yes, the attention of the compilers of this chronicle was focused almost exclusively on the Order and its brothers. Russian warriors were dressed in armor almost more easily than knights, but even harder.

    Maybe people were drowning the bishop, king and / or ests allied with the Germans (“chud”)? But the Russian Novgorod First Chronicle also does not write anything about the drowned. It only says that the Germans fled as a result of the battle, and the “Chud” fled and was persecuted for seven miles to the western shore of the lake, that 400 Germans died, “miracles” - “without a number”, and 50 Germans captured. And the “Life of Alexander Nevsky” in general records only the fierce intensity of the battle and the fact of the defeat and long pursuit of the enemy ...
    1. Mystery12345
      Mystery12345 April 18 2017 07: 38 New
      +5
      Quote: Mar. Tira
      Fact is that

      the fact is that the annals were written "from the bald", and our people know about "Ice" from the Eisenstein film ... that’s the whole truth. Truth is buried for centuries. look at what the "chroniclers" are writing about the Great October Socialist Revolution ... what kind of "copy" the descendants will read, such is the idea ... request
      1. kalibr
        kalibr April 18 2017 10: 15 New
        +2
        "10 days that shook the world" has not been canceled!
      2. Polkanov
        Polkanov April 18 2017 11: 47 New
        +1
        ... annals were written from the bulldozer - did you see it? Stunned, it seems ...
  4. parusnik
    parusnik April 18 2017 07: 32 New
    +5
    If the Mongol invasion is “so-called”, then the battle on Lake Peipsi, “so-called” ... Essentially .. the battle on Lake Peipsi was, according to the sources that are known, Russian and German .. As for archaeological searches .. there’s nothing to search yet, the exact place of the battle has not been established .. Yes, and the lake changed its shape over so many centuries .. As for the personality of A. Nevsky, there was far from an angel ... a man of his time ..
    1. mihey
      mihey April 18 2017 11: 05 New
      +2
      And the lake has changed its shape over so many centuries.

      Terraces of the lake, even of karst, even of the old one, have not changed for millennia, unless there are tectonic reasons or thoughtless economic activity of people. Water level fluctuations, if any, could not significantly affect the shape of the lake. As an example, archaeological sites from the Mesolithic to the late Middle Ages on the same sites perfectly adjoin Belozero.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr April 18 2017 11: 08 New
        +2
        By the way, there is material about the geology of Lake Peipsi, its water and ice regime. We must find and ...
    2. Ivan Tartugai
      Ivan Tartugai April 18 2017 13: 50 New
      0
      Quote: parusnik
      .Yes, and the lake has changed shape over so many centuries.


      On the Kulikovo field, using geological research, its relief was determined during the Battle of Kulikovo, i.e. it is already known and there is a map showing where and what the stream flowed, where and what was the ravine or beam, where and what was the hill or lowland in 1380.
      Similarly, probably the terrain of Lake Peipsi and the relief of the bottom of the lake have already been determined, but there is no result.
      In total, according to the Battle of the Ice, we have much later written annals and legends that differ in the description of the battle, but we have no material evidence at all.
      Hence the question arises: "Was there a boy?".
      1. Operator
        Operator April 18 2017 14: 08 New
        +2
        The battle of the ice was when the snow lay. In spring, local peasants plowed the land with their nose, extracting free metal.

        Therefore, the maximum that can now be found there is a single arrowhead.
        1. Ivan Tartugai
          Ivan Tartugai April 18 2017 21: 18 New
          0
          Quote: Operator
          local peasants plowed the land with their noses, extracting free metal.


          Free metal is a good incentive to smell your nose.
          Already in the commentary he wrote about the battle in the Teutoburg Forest between the Germans and the Roman army. More than 2 thousand years have passed. Local German peasants also love freebies. And the population density is denser than ours, i.e. they have more noses to plow, but still there is something left for the museum, i.e. found several thousand items of military ammunition, fragments of swords, armor, tools, even lead bullet kernels for slings. Yes, and about 2 hundred coins of Roman minting of that time were found both gold and silver. Well, what a freebie, but you don’t have to smell everything with your nose, you need a metal detector.
          And most importantly, military burials were found on the battlefield, which is not there after the Battle of Ice, and not after the Battle of Kulikovo.
          1. Operator
            Operator April 18 2017 21: 55 New
            +3
            The battle in the Teutoburg Forest happened exactly in the forest, and the Battle of the Ice - on the shore of the lake, i.e. in a place mastered by the rural population.

            There is no burial place for the losers of the battle for a simple reason - after losing, the Germans ran out onto the ice of the lake, where they finished off for several miles. The corpses with the removed weapons remained lying on the ice, after the ice melted, they ended up in the water, where they decomposed over 700 years.

            The Russians who fell in the battle were taken away on a sleigh and buried in cemeteries at the place of residence, using an air temperature below zero.
      2. parusnik
        parusnik April 18 2017 15: 47 New
        0
        Ivan Tartugai..If there is no boy, they don’t write about him ... You can write about the same event in different ways ..
        1. Ivan Tartugai
          Ivan Tartugai April 18 2017 20: 33 New
          +1
          Quote: parusnik
          If there is no boy, they don’t write about him ..


          And what, and who prevents writing about non-existent boys.
          We all see how they wrote and write about non-existent boys.
          For example, how Ivan the Terrible killed his son Ivan, how Boris Godunov killed Tsarevich Dmitry.
          And more modern examples, you know, you yourself read how much and persistently wrote about the superiority of the Wehrmacht in automatic weapons, that even in films every German showed a machine gun. Similarly, how much they wrote and continue to write in the superiority of the Germans in tanks about the surprise of the attack. Even about the virgin lands, which supposedly guaranteed to provide the country with bread.
          And such non-existent boys who are not there, and books and dissertations are written and written about them. They write in wagons, darkness. And about the big boys, and about the small ones.
          1. parusnik
            parusnik April 18 2017 20: 59 New
            +3
            For example, how Ivan the Terrible killed his son Ivan... was the event? The death of Tsarevich Ivan? ... It was .. But described as murder .. The death of Tsarevich Dmitry was? It was ... But as the political situation demanded, it was presented to it ... Didn’t the Wehrmacht have machine guns? .. Were there no tanks? .. There was no purpose? .. There was no German attack on the USSR ..? .. And about these events and the facts are written in different ways .. Tell me which of us will be more armed, I have five rifles without ammunition or you have one rifle, but with full ammunition and still have in stock ..? .. And I suppose miraculously, survived .. and somehow heaped it on you .. But then tell me ... of course ... he ... had five rifles ... and I have one ... I finally lost .. You say nothing ... about what I didn’t have cartridges ... I, in turn, will describe this event in my own way .. It's like an example .. not specific to the events you are proposing .. it's about how you can describe .. I recall a joke .. Tell me, defendant, how are you they killed N ... I didn’t kill, I cleaned the orange with a knife, the peel fell to the floor .. N swung, tried to punch, slipped, fell on the knife and so 8 times ... And the judge replied: What a heinous suicide ..
            1. Ivan Tartugai
              Ivan Tartugai April 19 2017 05: 57 New
              0
              Quote from parusnik:
              Was the event? The death of Tsarevich Ivan? ... It was .. But described as murder .. The death of Tsarevich Dmitry was? Was .. But toa political situation demanded so it was presented ..


              Sumptuously. But really, Prince Ivan probably died according to the requirements of the political situation of that time.
              According to your theory, it can be assumed that in the same way the Battle of the Ice fell into history.
              Was Peipsi lake? It was and is.
              Did the Russians live with Alexander Nevsky near the lake? Lived. Native places, why not live.
              Somewhere nearby, were the Germans next door? But what of course were.
              Water on the lake in лед freezes up? And then, after all, not the emirates, every year in лед freezes up.
              So in April 1242, the Battle of Ice occurred, where the Russians piled on the Germans, the Germans fled with grief to the spring ice and were drowned to the last. Hence there is no material confirmation of this battle. No fragments of armor, no fragments of weapons, not a single fragment of a German bone, with traces of that desperate cabin. There is nothing material, only paper — annals and legends. All ends in the water of Lake Peipsi.
              And what to do, so requires a political environment.
      3. co-creator
        co-creator April 19 2017 18: 28 New
        +2
        Quote: Ivan Tartugay
        On the Kulikovo field, using geological research, its relief was determined during the Battle of Kulikovo, i.e. it is already known and there is a map showing where and what the stream flowed, where and what was the ravine or beam, where and what was the hill or lowland in 1380.

        Name of the institute and scientists, who was it?
        1. Ivan Tartugai
          Ivan Tartugai April 19 2017 21: 30 New
          0
          Quotation: blooded man
          Name of the institute and scientists, who was it?


          The following is posted on the website of the State Military Historical and Natural Museum-Reserve "Kulikovo Field":

          “Archaeological research on the Kulikovo field is carried out in close collaboration with geophysical, electrical exploration, paleogeographic, paleo-faunistic and geological surveys. Joint research of the Kulikovo Field State Museum Reserve and the Institute of Geography of the Academy of Sciences of the Russian Academy of Sciences made it possible to create a detailed map of the battlefield landscape of the Battle of Kulikovo era, which shows the location of steppe and forest plots in the XNUMXth – XNUMXth centuries. Since 2000, based on the map data for the scientific reconstruction of the battlefield, large-scale work has been carried out to restore the natural and historical landscape. Experimental and practical work on restoration of feather grass vegetation and ancient oak forests on the arable land is carried out by the employees of the Museum-Reserve V. I. Danilov, O. V. Burova, E. M. Volkova. Together with the biologists of the Tula Pedagogical University, E. M. Volkova, O. V. Shvets, and E. A. Gorsky, studies of the flora and fauna of the Kulikov field and environmental studies are ongoing. ”

          Since no positive results were obtained, I was not interested in more detail on the methodology and organization of the georadar work.
  5. igordok
    igordok April 18 2017 07: 40 New
    +2
    Geographically, the battle took place in the area of ​​Warm Lake, which is generally not mentioned anywhere. The warm lake is the deepest place of the Pskov-Peipsi reservoir (not even mentioned here). Uzmen is located in the waters of the Warm Lake.
    The warm lake is the deepest of the three components of the lake complex, its maximum depth is 15,3 m (versus 12,3 m in Chudsky and 5,3 m in Pskov).

    I think that it is undeservedly not mentioned.
    1. igordok
      igordok April 18 2017 07: 46 New
      0
      I will add. 22 April 2017 will be a reconstruction of the Battle of Peipsi.
      Who cares.
      Event poster.
      21 April 2017, Friday
      Arrival and accommodation of military-historical reconstruction groups
      13.30 - 15.00 Lunch.
      After lunch, a foot tournament, an archery tournament, maneuvers.
      19.00 Dinner
      21.00 Council of Commanders.

      22 April 2017, Saturday Day for the audience
      9.00-10.30 Breakfast
      11.00 - Solemn rally at the Church of St. Michael the Archangel in the village of Kobyl Gorodishche.
      11.00 - Rehearsal for the reconstruction of the battle involving the cavalry.
      13.00 - Reconstruction of the battle. Maneuvers, finals of the foot tournament, equestrian tournament.
      14.30 Awarding of the winners.
      16.00 Continuation of the program for participants.
      19.00 Dinner.

      23 April 2017, Sunday
      Before lunch. Collecting camps, departure.
  6. Mar.Tirah
    Mar.Tirah April 18 2017 07: 45 New
    +3
    Quote: Mystery12345
    the fact is that the annals were written "from the bulldozer

    Well understand! Manuscripts "f furnace", and archaeologists to Kolyma?
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 April 18 2017 10: 23 New
      +2
      Quote: Mar. Tira
      Well understand! Manuscripts "f furnace", and archaeologists to Kolyma?

      Are you a fan of the theories of Bayer, Miller, and Schlötzer, who could hardly speak Russian? laughing
      1. kalibr
        kalibr April 18 2017 11: 10 New
        +3
        D. Nicole does not know Russian at all, but he wrote a very interesting book on the military affairs of Ancient Rus. Knowledge of the language is not an indicator ... There are translators ... And anyway ... after all, they introduced our annals into scientific circulation. Gathered them, laid the foundation for their study. If I were in their place and if I wished Russia harm, I would have gathered them all together, and would have burned all the short life in the barn. And they searched, collected ...!
        1. venaya
          venaya April 18 2017 13: 24 New
          +4
          Quote: kalibr
          ... And they searched, collected ...!

          Searched, "collected" and in the future everything was successfully burned in bulk.
          Perhaps you completely forgot about it?
          1. kalibr
            kalibr April 18 2017 18: 57 New
            0
            And where does the PSRL academic publication come from?
        2. Ivan Tartugai
          Ivan Tartugai April 18 2017 20: 54 New
          0
          Quote: kalibr
          If I were in their place and if I wished Russia harm, I would have gathered them all together, and would have burned all the short life in the barn. And they searched, collected ...!


          So in order to collect them all in a heap, and burn them in the barn, you just need to look and collect, and not lie on the couch and just wish Russia evil.
          So they searched and collected. As they needed, so did our annals. They were not concerned about the good for Russia.
    2. mkpda
      mkpda April 18 2017 19: 27 New
      +2
      It was like that. Manuscripts were repeatedly destroyed; lists of individual primary sources after their censorship reached us.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr April 18 2017 21: 15 New
        +2
        How ridiculous to read it, by golly. People do not know how to enter the archive of ancient acts, but they are judged. PSRL in the hands of no one held, but judged. Lord, what a terrible time. It was not clear who was allowed to go to the clave, and they imagined that they understood something. Are you gentlemen gifted with extrasensory perception that you get reliable information directly to the brain? "Censorship" - writes the "expert" ... But why do you need censorship if you can burn it?
        1. venaya
          venaya April 18 2017 22: 21 New
          +2
          Quote: kalibr
          Lord what terrible times

          Wait a bit, then it will be even worse, hang out.
  7. Bugno
    Bugno April 18 2017 09: 54 New
    +1
    Alexander Yaroslavovich of course was strong in everything !!! Honor and praise be to him! Well done!
  8. Curious
    Curious April 18 2017 10: 02 New
    +5
    The most amazing thing is that many people like it. Recalls the phenomenon of Indian cinema in the USSR. The same plot, a lot of dancing and music, a good end, a minimum of meaning. People fell in a rampart, the audience sobbed. But good conquered evil, and contented people went home.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr April 18 2017 10: 17 New
      +4
      And you think, Victor, why in the film did the horns attach to the Germans? Subconscious deep fears of devils and cows. And then they were beaten! Phew, how good it is!
      1. Curious
        Curious April 18 2017 10: 44 New
        +4
        The ideological message of the film is understandable, it was, as they say now, a state order. The father told me that he could not name the exact number of views of this film. But not less than twenty. That was a success. And the historical authenticity of the film, as I recall, was seriously criticized even then. Although in 1938 such criticism could cause significant harm to health. By the way, I compared Samsonov’s work with Indian cinema.
        1. ruskih
          ruskih April 18 2017 11: 32 New
          +9
          In ideological terms, what good correct and timely state order and how it is done. It is fully confirmed by the words of I.V. Stalin, uttered at the parade on November 7, 1941:
          “The war you are waging is a war of liberation, a just war. May the courageous image of our great ancestors - Alexander Nevsky, Dimitry Donskoy, Kuzma Minin, Dimitry Pozharsky, Alexander Suvorov, Mikhail Kutuzov inspire you in this war! May the victorious banner of the great Lenin overshadow you! ”(Link https://www.marxists.org/russkij/stalin/t15/t15_1
          4.htm)
          A poster of V.A. Serov 1941 “We beat, beat and beat”
          1. Curious
            Curious April 18 2017 11: 57 New
            +3
            This is exactly what I meant.
  9. AlexeyAlexey
    AlexeyAlexey April 18 2017 10: 16 New
    0
    But there is also actor Alexander Nevsky, also a Russian hero. Absolutely, Wat So Wat
    1. AlexeyAlexey
      AlexeyAlexey April 18 2017 10: 32 New
      0
      Modern Alexander Nevsky does not let his namesake and namesake down and plays only cool Russian good guys in Hollywood movies. Absolutely.

      1. Severomor
        Severomor April 18 2017 11: 09 New
        0
        What a terrible erysipelas (s)
        Champion of champions, "Mr. Olympia, the Universe and the world champion", the owner of various plastic medals and photos with real top bodybuilders. Well, nirazu did not take steroids and a fighter for natural sports)))))))) and all this is Alexander Kuritsin
      2. RUSS
        RUSS April 18 2017 12: 04 New
        +1
        Quote: AlexeyAlexey
        Modern Alexander Nevsky does not fail his namesake

        He is not his namesake, so this actor’s grief -Nevsky is not a surname, but a pseudonym.
  10. Kenneth
    Kenneth April 18 2017 10: 25 New
    +3
    Just do not need to put up a struggle for the economic interests of Novgorod as a struggle for Russia and Faith
  11. mihey
    mihey April 18 2017 10: 56 New
    +3
    Quote: Mystery12345
    Quote: Mar. Tira
    Fact is that

    the fact is that the annals were written "from the bald", and our people know about "Ice" from the Eisenstein film ... that’s the whole truth. Truth is buried for centuries. request

    Chronicles were not written "from the bulldozer." The fact that this is a political order, of course, no doubt, well, the prohibitive numbers of the battle participants - all the same, they gave weight to the event. However, the fact of the battle between the knights of the Livonian Order and the Novgorodians is foolish to deny. Doubts about the exact location of the battle were and will be, but the fact is that somewhere in the vicinity of Lake Peipsi. Why can't archaeologists find? There was no battle there between 100500 and 100500. If at least 10 knights + their servants-knights-squires at least 20 were gathered in the entire Livonian Order. AND ALL !!! Well, from our side, about the same, though, maybe 100 more. Given that weapons and armor at that time were very rare and expensive, I doubt that after the battle they did not collect all this. The dead were buried, most likely, in a mass grave. Finding her is like looking for a needle in a haystack without a magnet. Something like this in general.
    And about the insanity of the author of the opus about something Russian-Horde there (untranslated folklore). The author needs to tell in Italy about the Great Gotto-Roman Empire or in Spain about the Greatest Arab-Spanish kingdom (further completely untranslated folklore).
    1. kalibr
      kalibr April 18 2017 11: 19 New
      +4
      Here, probably, you got a little excited! It is known that somewhere in 1290, the order brothers had about 90 castles! Well, in 1242, let's say - 70. One castle - one knight! Well ... his squire, well ... a couple of servants, there are still archers. But ... in 1241 there was a battle at Legnica, where the Livonians inherited from the Mongols. Suppose they killed 10. 60 left. Further ... Someone was injured, someone was sick, someone just did not go. So 50 could be typed. But there were no GUESTS of the order there! There were no fools to go to the “aunt into the wilderness to Saratov” when you can fight warmly in Europe, in Spain, for example.
      1. mihey
        mihey April 18 2017 12: 48 New
        +3
        So in the entire Teutonic Order at the end of the 300th century. there were about XNUMX komkurstvs, i.e., in fact, small principalities. And if you count all the knight brothers, then you are right about the quantity. Moreover, it is possible that the bollards are the knight brothers. Whereas heavy cavalry is a master, the closest circle and squires. And the castles ... well, some fortress-fortification, in our opinion. Annals tend to increase or downgrade where necessary and not necessary, depending on the results of the event.
        1. kalibr
          kalibr April 18 2017 15: 29 New
          0
          You are also right about the annals ... First, the figure of 400 prisoners appeared, then after 100 years it became 500 ...
  12. Summit
    Summit April 18 2017 11: 06 New
    +1
    The search engines rummaged through the whole of Lake Peipsi with sonar, all-round devices, but could not find a trace either in the water or nearby — no artifacts at all. Not a grain of iron. Even a dead German was not found
    1. kalibr
      kalibr April 18 2017 11: 24 New
      +3
      The funny thing is that in the journal "Young Technician" in 1962 there was an article where it was written: "Piles of armor and weapons were lifted from the bottom!" But in the editorial remark at the end of the article they wrote: What ... nothing has been raised and not everything is so simple with the battle! I remember it was very surprising. How is it that a person writes, he is printed in the MAGAZINE of the Komsomol Central Committee, but ... he turns out to "not know what he is writing!"
  13. Operator
    Operator April 18 2017 11: 22 New
    +3
    Author

    "The lands of the Wends-Wends, Luts-Lutichs, Bodriches-encouraged, Ruyan, Prussians-Prussians":
    - Vendians this is Lutichi, Bodrichi and ruyan (such as the Slavs include Poles, Russians, Serbs, etc.):
    - there was no such tribe of Porussians, there was a tribe of Rus, consisting of Russians and living in Porussia (with one “s”);
    - Prussians are a Baltic tribe, formed on a parity basis from the descendants of the Vendians and the Ugro-Finns, from the 5th to the 9th centuries, the Vendian tribe was a neighbor of Russia in Porus, after the tribe left Russia to the east took its place of residence (having changed its name to Prussia), after the Germans conquered the Prussians were assimilated by them.

    T.N. superethnos are all Slavs, and not their microscopic part of Rus - a small Western Slavic tribe (in fact a large clan of several thousand people), which until the 5th century was part of the Ruyan, which in turn were part of the Wends.
    1. venaya
      venaya April 18 2017 14: 01 New
      0
      Quote: Operator
      T.N. superethnos are all Slavs, and not their microscopic part of Rus - a small West Slavic tribe

      And what, there is at least some information about the presence of some "Slavs" until the XNUMXth century. But there is quite a lot of information about Rus, Take at least ancient Persia with the clearly Russian-speaking Yaek "Farsi" = Parsi = in Russia = in Russian. But this has long been known. Or is it possible to show you a map of Porussia, which almost completely coincides with the state of the Franks, the "Frankish state of vandals", later, under Charlemagne, who received the status of Empire (Empire of the Franks) from Rome and was later divided into three components, the eastern part of which was called "Holy Roman Empire" (apparently was under the heel of the Latin-speaking Catholic Rome). Say what you like, but the evidence that all of "Europe" was previously just Russia, called both Venice and Porusia is already too much, and not Slavs lived there but Slovenians, Venets / Wends in Latin often called "sklevens".
      1. Operator
        Operator April 18 2017 14: 20 New
        +2
        Persia - from the Sanskrit parsa (heroes), the self-name of one of the Iranian tribes and its habitat in the south of the Iranian Highlands.

        The indigenous inhabitants of the Iranian highlands - the Northern Semites (haplogroup J2) were linguistically and culturally assimilated by nomadic Aestian Arians (haplogroup R1a), who invaded the Iranian highlands in 1500 BC.

        After that, the Parsis conquered the entire Iranian Highlands and created the state of Parsia (Persia in Russian). The word "Parsi" turned into Farsi after the Arab conquest of the country, since the letter "p" is missing in the Arabic language.

        In 1935, the Persian Shah renamed the country to Iran - in accordance with the Aryan toponym Airyāna.
      2. mihey
        mihey April 18 2017 16: 07 New
        +2
        And what, there is at least some information about the presence of some "Slavs" before the XVII century

        So offhand: in the writings of Procopius of Caesarea about the tribes of the Slavs and Ants, it is indicated in the IV century. AD According to archaeological materials (continuity of material culture, funeral rite), the date can be safely omitted until the first centuries of our era.
        1. Operator
          Operator April 18 2017 16: 21 New
          +3
          Venaya is a purist - according to him, the Slavs until the XVII century lacked the concept of "Slavs" to denote their cultural and linguistic community.

          Type "we did not finish academies" (C) laughing
          1. venaya
            venaya April 18 2017 16: 36 New
            0
            Quote: Operator
            the Slavs until the XVII century lacked the concept of "Slavs" to denote their cultural and linguistic community.

            So far, only the terms “Sloven” (a man of words, that is, speaking modern) or Latin “Slavs” (sclavus) = Sokolovians, worshipers of the sun god “Ra” or Yara-Ra (Yarilu) are slipping me. portrayed as a man with the head of a falcon, this is a religious difference. Hence the whole confusion, the letter was replaced, not paying attention to the change in the meaning of the word. Attentiveness is not enough for people.
          2. mihey
            mihey April 18 2017 16: 40 New
            +2
            It is strange that only until the XVIIth century: after all, for almost 4 centuries, Russians have been running across the territory of modern Russia, and then Cossacks and Siberians have drawn themselves from somewhere, but here they are not Slavs (albeit eastern ones).
            Where are we going, what kind of dregs we read and what do we believe ... recourse
            1. Curious
              Curious April 18 2017 17: 52 New
              +2
              So you didn’t read the “neo-historians” like Tatyana Gracheva. That's where the girl lights up. Already Jerusalem is being taken from the Jews. Those at the official level complain, do not disclose that the Russians built Jerusalem.
              1. mihey
                mihey April 18 2017 21: 03 New
                +3
                I somehow slipped one essay Fomenko ... so now I have an allergy to such "research".
                1. Curious
                  Curious April 18 2017 21: 44 New
                  +2
                  Compared to Gracheva, Fomenko is a model of realism.
            2. venaya
              venaya April 18 2017 18: 00 New
              +1
              Quote: mihey
              until XVII: after all, for almost 4 centuries, Russians have been running across the territory of modern Russia

              Please be careful, watch what I write and what you write. After all, I write everywhere that according to the latest Russian calendar, it’s not at all 1000 years old, but all 7525 years old. Rusichi of the haplogroup R1a settled here more than 10 thousand years ago, while they called themselves differently but not "Slavs", but Slovenes, that is, those who say, or, as it is now customary to say, talking, talking. In this regard, there is a theory that before the Rus on the territory of modern "Europe" people also lived, but who did not have the gift of developed speech, and there is already enough evidence for this. So the Russians did not “run” here for 4 centuries, but all 100 centuries, so read more closely.
              1. Operator
                Operator April 18 2017 18: 29 New
                +2
                The last glacial era in Eurasia began 110000 years ago and ended 9600 years ago (7600 years BC)

                During the last ice age, there were three temporary warmings, the last of which dates back to 11400-10730 for years. On the territory of Europe, burials of people dated by these warmings were found, relating to both Homo sapiens and Neanderthals. Haplogroups Homo sapiens are deciphered only for burials dated no earlier than 25000 years ago.

                These burials are located on the Iberian and Peloponese peninsulas, the so-called glacial shelters. The vast majority of them are burials of carriers of haplogroup I - Illyrians, the indigenous inhabitants of Western and Southern Europe.

                12000 years ago, mass burials of Aryans (R1a) appear in the Balkans, which begin to spread to the north and east of the subcontinent following the retreating glacier. 9000 years ago, Aryan burials appear on the Karelian Isthmus.

                Along with the spread of Aryans in North-Eastern Europe, in the Pelopones and Apennines burial sites of khamites (haplogroup E) appear, in the Pyrenees, in the Alps and on the British Isles - burials of Caucasians (haplogroup G).
              2. mihey
                mihey April 18 2017 21: 14 New
                +1
                belay as I understand it, it’s useless to say something in your case. It is clear that the Rus, who ran here 100 centuries ago, identified themselves as Rus and passed this knowledge from generation to generation under a mandatory distribution subscription. Enchantingly fool
                1. venaya
                  venaya April 18 2017 21: 52 New
                  +1
                  Quote: mihey
                  the Russians who ran here 100 centuries ago identified themselves as Russians

                  They are Russes (as opposed to curly-haired), no matter how they identify themselves. Look at the dictionary of V. Dahl, it says that "Rus is light brown", it is clear that these are people of northern origin, that is, where they lived there simply was little sun.
                2. Operator
                  Operator April 18 2017 22: 01 New
                  0
                  Mihey, "here" is where: in the Pyrenees, Apennines, Balkans, Karelian Isthmus, or in your Mordovia? laughing
                  1. mihey
                    mihey April 20 2017 09: 51 New
                    +1
                    In Eastern Europe wink
                    All kinds of different Indo-Iranians, Indo-Europeans and Finno-Ugrians fled to Mari El, well, and then the Türks inherited ... True, who ran 10 thousand years ago, only "great learned minds" can say which I don’t belong to . So - modest repeat
                    1. Operator
                      Operator April 20 2017 10: 45 New
                      0
                      Blame for Mordovia.

                      "Great scientists’ minds "have already identified the Mari haplotype: 48% of the Aryan R1a, 31% of the Ugrophin N1c1 and 10% of the Samoyed N1b.

                      Arias came to the Volga region 9000 years ago, ugrofin - 3500 years ago, Samoyeds - 3000 years ago.
                      1. mihey
                        mihey April 20 2017 11: 16 New
                        +1
                        There it is !!! But our archaeologists do not know this! And philologists and folklorists better not to talk about it at all! And these were figures who found a common language with Japanese, the origins of folklore in Effiopia, and the ancestors in general from Alpha Tsetavra wink
                3. Zulu_S
                  Zulu_S April 19 2017 17: 15 New
                  0
                  Quote: mihey
                  the Russians who ran here 100 centuries ago

                  That is, 10000 years ago, together with the great Ukrainians, they dug the Black Sea. Care should be taken with arithmetic. The red word in History turns into embarrassment, if you do not give a damn about arithmetic.
                  1. mihey
                    mihey April 20 2017 09: 52 New
                    +1
                    belay this is what follows from my post?
  14. alebor
    alebor April 18 2017 11: 44 New
    0
    I can’t understand one thing. If you read the history of medieval Novgorod and Pskov, you can clearly see that wars with neighboring Livonians and Swedes took place regularly: every few years there was either a major war, or a border skirmish, or a raid on the territory of neighbors. And the reasons for all these clashes were either economic or political - the seizure of land, the seizure of prey and captives, or at least to "avenge the unreasonable" Khazars "for a violent raid." And of all these numerous clashes and wars, for some reason, only the two battles that A. Nevsky won were religious and ideological, it was under Nevsky that the “masters of the West” attacked the Russian lands in order to impose Catholicism and impose their own “conceptual beginning” (“matrix” ). " What a strange coincidence. Or is it, after the canonization of the holy, blessed Alexander Nevsky, the chroniclers-historians tried?
    1. Engineer
      Engineer April 18 2017 13: 43 New
      +2
      it also says that Novgorod and Pskov themselves were not particularly friends, especially under Yaroslavich.
    2. kalibr
      kalibr April 18 2017 15: 33 New
      +1
      alebor Everything is long and troublesome to study, and then it is clear that "people are people." We are them, they are us ... And here everything is clear and highly patriotic, and educational, and revealing!
  15. Engineer
    Engineer April 18 2017 13: 41 New
    +2
    The author of the straight insert completely made Kazachenko from the book 38g "Ice Battle". But our ancestors didn’t have to eat up on thin ice, which was not there then to defeat the Germans, they were much smarter than they think about them now. I advise the author to read the modern historians of the same famous archaeologist Kirpichnikov and not to reprint rubbish about the German pig, ambush regiments, infantry, and tens of thousands of knights, of which there were not so many all over Europe at that time.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr April 18 2017 15: 34 New
      0
      The news draws from forgotten newspapers, from the time of Ochakov and the conquest of Crimea ...
      1. V.ic
        V.ic April 18 2017 19: 00 New
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        The news draws from forgotten newspapers, from the time of Ochakov and the conquest of Crimea ...

        ... you are always ready for the rush,
        Sing the same song
        Not noticing about himself: What is older is worse.
        Sorry, Alexander Sergeyevich for compiling ...
    2. Svidetel 45
      Svidetel 45 April 19 2017 23: 42 New
      +2
      Quote: Engineer
      The author of the straight insert completely made Kazachenko from the book 38g "Ice Battle". But our ancestors didn’t have to eat up on thin ice, which was not there then to defeat the Germans, they were much smarter than they think about them now. I advise the author to read the modern historians of the same famous archaeologist Kirpichnikov and not to reprint rubbish about the German pig, ambush regiments, infantry, and tens of thousands of knights, of which there were not so many all over Europe at that time.

      Nonsense, in my opinion, you’re persecuting, the author of the article never speaks of “tens of thousands” of knights, he mentions 10-12 thousand on the one hand and 15-17 thousand on the other, while he says that most of the Teutonic troops were infantry from among the conquered peoples and the retinue of knights - pages, squires, etc ..
  16. Velizariy
    Velizariy April 18 2017 17: 24 New
    0
    Boris55,
    I do not comment on the nonsense about slavery and retention, this clinic is simple.
    And who is the genocide of Georgians and Armenians? Muslim Persians or Persian Gentiles? Or Persians Georgians with Armenians?)))
  17. Roman 11
    Roman 11 April 18 2017 19: 41 New
    +3
    The greatest victory. Included in the top ten most important historical victories of ours, IMHO.

    But unfortunately no traces have yet been found and there are contradictions of the exact place of the battle.
  18. Operator
    Operator April 18 2017 22: 24 New
    +2
    "The members of the group plotted the alleged locations of the mass graves of the warriors of both sides who fell in this battle. These graves are located in two zones east of the village of Samolva. One of the zones is half a kilometer north of the village of Tabory and a half kilometers from Samolva. The second zone with the largest number of burials is in 1,5-2 km north of the village of Tabory and about 2 km east of Samolva. It can be assumed that the knights were wedged into the ranks of Russian soldiers in the area of ​​the first burial (first zone), and in the T The main battle and the environment of the knights took place in the zone.

      Studies have shown that in those distant days in the area south of the now existing village of Kozlovo (more precisely, between Kozlov and Tabor) there was some kind of fortified outpost of the Novgorodians. It is possible that there was an old "town" (before the transfer, or the construction of a new town in the place where the Mare Gorodishche is now located). This outpost (town) was located in 1,5-2 km from the village of Tabory. He was hidden behind the trees. Here, behind the earthen fortifications of the now defunct building, there was Andrei Yaroslavich’s detachment hidden in an ambush before the battle. Here and only here Prince Alexander Nevsky sought to connect with him. At the critical moment of the battle, an ambush regiment could go behind the knights, surround them and ensure victory.

    The discovery of the burial area of ​​the dead soldiers allowed us to make a confident conclusion that the battle was going on here, between the villages of Tabory, Kozlovo and Samolva. The place is relatively flat. Nevsky’s troops from the north-western side (on the right hand) were protected by the weak spring ice of Lake Peipsi, and on the eastern side (on the left hand) - by the forested part, where the fresh forces of Novgorodians and Suzdalites who were seated in the fortified town were ambushed.

       Knights advanced from the south side (from the village of Tabory). Unaware of the Novgorod reinforcements and feeling their military superiority in strength, they, without hesitation, rushed into battle, falling into the separated "network". This shows that the battle itself was on land, not far from the shores of Lake Peipsi. Towards the end of the battle, the knightly army was pushed to the spring ice of the Zhelchinsky Bay of Lake Peipsi, where many of them died. "Their remains and armaments are now located half a kilometer northwest of the Mare's Hillfort Church at the bottom of this bay."


    http://mordikov.fatal.ru/ledovoe_poboishe.html
  19. kalibr
    kalibr April 19 2017 07: 45 New
    0
    Quote: Operator
    Their remains and weapons are now located half a kilometer northwest of the Mare's Hillfort Church at the bottom of this bay

    By the way, the Academy of Sciences was looking with magnetometers along our entire coast, that is, here, rightly deciding that ... at least they would find somewhere. And ... did not find!
    1. Cat man null
      Cat man null April 19 2017 07: 52 New
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      Quote: Operator
      Their remains and weapons are now located half a kilometer northwest of the Mare's Hillfort Church at the bottom of this bay

      By the way, the Academy of Sciences was looking with magnetometers along our entire coast, that is, here, rightly deciding that ... at least they would find somewhere. And ... did not find!

      - 775 years have passed, however
      - what lay aground, povylovali locals and put, as it is fashionable to this day, "on nails" (needles)
      - other rotted. Well, it doesn’t keep iron in water for such a long time, it doesn’t happen (s)

      Even search request
    2. Operator
      Operator April 19 2017 08: 55 New
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      Academy of Sciences searched

      I doubt that I would search qualitatively, most likely they worked in the field for a tick - they had a good time in the tourist zone in the summer.

      The most important thing that the local enthusiasts did - the unhistorical (in your dismissive expression) - determined the location of the Raven Stone, which turned out to be on land exactly like the annalistic description of the battle: "on the grass", and not on ice (on which the Germans only finished off after their escape from the battlefield).

      Judging by the information on the Voronny stone web link, it represented an exit to the surface of limestone rock, which in 700 years collapsed and was buried under a layer of soil. Academic historians have flapped out this situation and focused solely on stones in the water area of ​​the lake (but how could it be otherwise - after all, "all Russian chronicles are falsified").

      And by the way, the diagram clearly shows the difference between the battle places in the Teutoburg Forest (the absence of settlements) and the Ice Battle (the presence of settlements), which explains the safety and non-preservation of metal artifacts at the battlefield, respectively.
    3. Zulu_S
      Zulu_S April 19 2017 17: 05 New
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      deciding fairly that ... at least somewhere they will find. And ... did not find!

      It is impossible to find what is not. It should not be forgotten that military armor has always been of great value, the XNUMXth century is no exception. How many valuable things, not in the archaeological sense, but in relation to that time were found in burials?
  20. Zulu_S
    Zulu_S April 19 2017 16: 56 New
    +1
    First, an article in which the author, without hesitation, increased the number of troops by an order of magnitude minimum, probably considering that the more participants, the more significant the event (where was he able to place 30000 soldiers + horses near Voronny Stone?), Then comments and commentators crawled to " theological "disputes. Harmful article. Instead of a memorable date of military glory through "inaccuracies," this same Military Glory calls into question! However, the memory of Alexander Nevsky.
    If I’m wrong, let the author give sources from which he drew data on the number of troops from one and the other.
    However, the undoubted merit of the author is to clarify the date of the battle.
  21. Svidetel 45
    Svidetel 45 April 19 2017 23: 25 New
    +1
    Quote: Velizariy
    Quote: Nehist
    genocide flourished!

    For instance?

    And for example, the conquistadors in America in the 15th century, planted Christianity with fire and sword.
  22. Svidetel 45
    Svidetel 45 April 19 2017 23: 33 New
    +2
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: Operator
    Their remains and weapons are now located half a kilometer northwest of the Mare's Hillfort Church at the bottom of this bay

    By the way, the Academy of Sciences was looking with magnetometers along our entire coast, that is, here, rightly deciding that ... at least they would find somewhere. And ... did not find!

    And they couldn’t find, what turned out to be at the bottom, quietly turned into rust for 700 years, what turned out to be on the shore, or on the ice, was quickly “privatized”, because in those days iron products didn’t just dump in landfills , and even weapons and protective armor, which were very expensive to manufacture and highly valued, especially.
  23. Operator
    Operator April 20 2017 11: 39 New
    +1
    mihey,
    I already wrote in comments about dolbo.bov archaeologists who have been looking for Raven Stone in Lake Peipsi for hundreds of years (although in all the chronicles the so-called Ice Slaughter is indicated "on the grass") and the mouth of the Nepryadva at the place where it flows into the Don (at that the word "mouth" in the 14th century meant "source").
  24. smr
    smr April 21 2017 14: 22 New
    +1
    Livonian Rhymed Chronicle:
    2240 The Germans began a battle with them.
    Russians had a lot of shooters
    who courageously accepted the first rush,
    [in front of] the prince's retinue.
    It was visible, as a detachment of brothers-knights
    2245 defeated the shooters;
    there was the sound of swords
    and it was visible how helmets were cut.
    Slain on both sides
    fell on the grass.
    2250 Those who were in the army of the knight brothers,
    were surrounded.
    The Russians had such a army
    that every German attacked,
    perhaps sixty people.
    2255 The Knight Brothers stubbornly resisted,
    but they were overpowered there.
    Part of the derpttsev out
    from the battle, it was their salvation,
    they were forced to retreat.
    2260 Twenty knight brothers were killed there,
    and six were captured.
    That was the course of the battle.
      Prince Alexander was glad
    that he won.
    ===========
    Won a victory
    BUT!
    In 1268, six years after the death of Alexander, the Novgorodians went to the Danish fortress Rakovor (the modern city of Rakvere near Tallinn). On the way, Germans attacked the Novgorod regiments, and a terrible battle took place - the Battle of Rakovors. Novgorodians defeated the allied forces of the Germans and Danes. Without thinking twice, they called on a large number of soldiers and knights from Western Europe in order to capture Novgorod by crossing the Narova River. But here in Novgorod, according to the agreement with the Horde, a Tatar detachment of 500 horsemen appeared. The Germans, not even knowing exactly the size of this detachment, immediately "made peace with all the will of Novgorod, fearlessly afraid of the name of the Tatar." Novgorod and Pskov survived.
    So the Germans were not stopped by the Russians but by the Tatars
    1. Operator
      Operator April 21 2017 14: 58 New
      +1
      Already whole 500 Tatars are, of course, superpowers - and the Novgorod regiments (which just defeated the Germans and Danes in the Battle of Rakovors), so they were not at all impressed with the “warriors and knights from Western Europe” in the 1268 year?

      Then why in the next 1269 year did the Order undertake a campaign with the futile siege of Pskov and the flight of the knights with the only news of the approach of the Novgorod army, after which a long-term peace treaty was concluded on the conditions of Novgorod?

      And, I realized - the Germans' memory of the existence of the Tatars for a year was weathered laughing
      1. smr
        smr April 24 2017 13: 00 New
        +1
        Question to the Novgorod Chronicle.
        However! It was Sasha "Nevsky" who brought to Russia (and his brother)
        "Even among close relatives, Prince Alexander did not find understanding. His own brother Andrei himself was a Westerner and announced that he was making an alliance with the Swedes, Livonians and Poles in order to get rid of the Mongols. The Mongols became aware of this union, probably thanks to Alexander Nevsky himself Batu, fulfilling his allied obligations, sent the commander Nevruy to Russia (1252), who defeated Prince Andrei’s troops, while the Nevruyev army inflicted more damage on Russia than Baty’s campaign.
        Nevryuyev army (1252) - the punitive campaign of the Golden Horde troops under the command of Nevryuy. at the request of Alexander Nevsky [1] [2] [3]) against his own brother - the Grand Duke of Vladimir Andrei Yaroslavich. Andrei tried to withdraw North-Eastern Russia from the Horde Rus. I was looking for an alliance with Daniil Galitsky. On the contrary, Alexander is a supporter of the alliance with the Horde .. Tatars ruined the Suzdal lands on a tip from Sasha "And the great prince Andrei is" barely a refuge
        1. Operator
          Operator April 24 2017 13: 11 New
          0
          Quote: smr
          Andrey ... makes an alliance with Swedes, Livonians and Poles

          This is called the sale of the homeland one to fight with others - what is the point of this action?

          Study the story - after Andrei returned from abroad, he received the city of Suzdal from Alexander as a reign, which confirms Alexander’s neutrality with respect to Andrei.
          1. smr
            smr April 24 2017 13: 27 New
            0
            Aha, after the Tatars ravaged the Suzdal lands, Sasha gave his brother Suzdal from his bounty.
            1. Operator
              Operator April 24 2017 13: 44 New
              0
              This is not the point - you claimed that Alexander initiated the Tatars' campaign against his brother, which is not confirmed by the subsequent actions of Alexander.

              And by the way, the meaning of your support of Andrei’s actions is not clear - what, is it now considered normal in Kazakhstan to sell the Motherland alone in order to fight off others?
              1. smr
                smr April 24 2017 14: 18 New
                +1
                This is not what I say, but the sources:
                “And Alexander complained about the brother of his grand duke Andrei, as if he had seduced the khan, having taken the great reign under him, as the oldest, and he had caught his father’s city, and he didn’t pay the khan’s outputs and tamga. Khan was angry with Andrei and led Nevrui to Saltan to go to Andrei and bring him in front of him. And that summer come from the Horde Nevruy Saltan, and Prince Katiak
                Even G.V. Vernadsky in the apologetic article “Two Feats of St. Alexander Nevsky” (1925) actually agreed with Alexander’s involvement in the arrival of the Nevryueva rati. The historian wrote: "Not meeting humility in the brothers, Alexander did not stop to humble them with the help of the Tatars."
      2. smr
        smr April 24 2017 13: 18 New
        0
        It was in 1269, when the Novgorod and Tatar troops approached, headed by Prince Yuri that the Germans lifted the siege and “made peace at all with Novgorod’s will” for 30 years. And then in Pskov sat the Pskov prince, from the princes of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, who ruled in Pskov from 1266 to 1299.
        1. Operator
          Operator April 24 2017 13: 40 New
          +1
          Even if the Volga Tatars participated in small numbers as allies on the side of the thousands of Novgorod troops against the Germans in the next 1269 year - that the Crimean Tatars were alternately many times alternately among the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Russian Kingdom, and nothing, Poland and Russia somehow survived these "allies."
          1. smr
            smr April 24 2017 14: 11 New
            0
            It means that the Novgorod Chronicle is a lie to you, "making peace with all the will of Novgorod, I'm afraid of the Tatar name."
  25. Loki_2
    Loki_2 April 21 2017 20: 23 New
    0
    Just like a textbook for grade 5. The article is designed for children 11 years of age?
    Just to compare, how to talk about the ice battle: