Double-headed eagle - heritage of ancestors

160 years ago, 11 on April 1857, the Russian Tsar Alexander II approved the national emblem of Russia - the double-headed eagle. In general, the emblem of the Russian state was modified under many kings. This happened under Ivan the Terrible, Mikhail Fedorovich, Peter I, Paul I, Alexander I and Nicholas I. Each of these monarchs made any changes to the state emblem.

But a serious heraldic reform was carried out in the reign of Alexander II in 1855-1857. According to his order, the Armorial Office was created especially for the work on the coats of arms in the Department of Heralds of the Senate, which was headed by Baron B. Kene. He developed a whole system of Russian state emblems (Large, Medium and Small), focusing in their artistic embodiment on the generally accepted norms of European monarchist heraldry. Also under the leadership of Kene, the figure of the eagle and St. George was changed, and the national emblem was brought in line with the international rules of heraldry. 11 April 1857, Alexander II approved the coat of arms of the Russian Empire - the double-headed eagle. Also, the whole set of state emblems was approved - Big, Medium and Small, which were to symbolize the unity and power of Russia. In May 1857, the Senate published a Decree describing new emblems and norms for their use, which existed until the 1917 year without any changes.

The legacy of ancestors

The national emblem and color bear a symbolic and historical value. It must be remembered that state symbols (the figurative expression of statehood, nation, its ideology) occupy an extremely important place in the life of the people, although this is usually invisible in everyday life. The oldest Russian symbols, which originate from the times of the Indo-Europeans-Aryans, were the Solstice, the falcon-rarog, the double-headed eagle, red color.

One of the historical emblems of Russia-Russia is the two-headed eagle. In its antiquity and depth of meaning, it is second only to the rider striking a dragon serpent, which in a later, already Christian understanding, is known as George the Victorious. The rider symbolizes the Thunderer (Perun, Indra, Thor, etc.), who strikes the snake (the symbol of Veles-Volos, the lord Navi). This is one of the basic myths of the Indo-Europeans-Aryans.

The double-headed eagle (bird) is noted in a wide variety of cultures. In particular, in Sumerian and Indian mythologies. So, Gandberunda is a two-headed bird in Vedic (Hindu) mythology (II millennium BC). The name of this bird consists of two words - ganda (strong), berunda (two-headed). In the Vishnu Purana, it is said that the warrior god Vishnu turned into Gandberunda when weaponswhich he owned was not enough and it was necessary to display fantastic power: a two-headed eagle could easily lift in each paw and beak along an elephant or a lion. Such an image of Gandaburundy is preserved not only on medieval coins, but also on the bas-relief of the Rameshwar temple in the Indian city of Keladi, which was built in the 16th century, and also in the coat of arms of the kingdom (principality) Mysore, where Gandberunda holds an elephant in each paw. Gandberunda is also known as the emblem of the dynasty of the Kings of Mysore - Vodeyar, on a number of gold and copper coins of the powerful empire of Vijayanagar (southern India) of the XIII – XVI centuries.

Principality of Mysore (India)

Indians perceived Gandberunda not only as a symbol of the warrior god Vishnu, his highest authority and military power, but also as an avatar (embodiment) of Vishnu, he also symbolized the observance of the principles of dharma (discipline and order). In addition, in Buddhism, the two-headed eagle symbolized the power and authority of the Buddha.

Actively used this symbol in the northern Indo-European (Aryan) cultures. HIt must be said that the many-headedness of various animals, mythical creatures is one of the features of Slavic mythology. No wonder another one of the oldest symbols of the superethnos of the Rus is Triglav, the triune God watches all the kingdoms of the earth: Yavu, Pravya and Navju (known in India as Trimurty, in Christianity - the Trinity). Various biceps, Triglavs-Troyans, four-headed Svyatovidy-Sventovidy, Semiglavy, etc. - this is a sign of the super ethnicity of the Rus.

Especially often in antiquity there is a double-headed eagle in Asia Minor and the Balkan Peninsula. In Asia Minor, he meets since the times of the mighty power of the II millennium BC. er - Hittite kingdom. Its founders were Indo-Europeans-Aryans, whose ancestral home supposedly was the Balkan Peninsula. The Hittite Empire successfully competed with Egypt. The Hittites were among the first to master the secret smelting of iron, controlled all of Asia Minor and the straits from the Mediterranean to the Black Sea. It was the great Aryan (Indo-European) people who worshiped the gods Pirva (Perun) and Sivat (Sveta). The Hittite coat of arms was a two-headed eagle, which was preserved not only on standards, stone bas-reliefs, but also seals. The Hittite eagle is the most important, material evidence of the continuity of Indo-European cultures, the succession of empires.

Gandberunda in Rmeshvar temple in Keladi, India

Double-headed eagle - symbol of the kingdom of Hittite

However, the Hittites adopted the eagle from the more ancient Aryan culture. There are more ancient settlements in Anatolia. In particular, the excavation near the settlement of Alacha-Uyuk (English form - Aladzha-khyuk). This settlement of the Bronze Age - IV - III thousand BC. er And here, along with numerous sculptural and bronze images of swastika-solstice and other Aryan-Indo-European traditional symbols, charms, the reliefs of the two-headed eagle were found. Thus, we observe the most ancient succession of the Aryan-Indo-European culture: Alacha IV thousand BC. er - Hattusa II mil. BC. er - Byzantium I-II thousand n. er - Russia XV-XXI centuries. n er

Russian heraldists noted that the image of the two-headed eagle was known in ancient Pteria (city in Medes). It dates back to the period of the turn of the 7th and 6th centuries. BC er According to Xenophon, the Persians at about the same time served as an eagle symbol of supreme power. The symbol of the double-headed eagle was used by the Persian shahs from the Sassanid dynasty. In ancient times, the eagle and the lion were considered a symbol of royalty. In ancient Rome, Roman commanders had images of an eagle on their rods, it was a symbol of primacy over the troops. Later, the eagle became an exclusively imperial symbol, symbolizing supreme power.

Western heraldists of the XVII century told the legend of how the double-headed eagle became the state emblem of Rome. At the entrance of Julius Caesar to Rome, an eagle flew in the air above him, which attacked two kites, killed them, and threw them at the feet of the great commander. Surprised, Julius considered this to be a sign that predicts his victory and ordered to perpetuate it, adding a second head to the Roman eagle. However, most likely, the appearance of the second head should be attributed to a later time, when the empire was divided into two parts - the Eastern and Western Roman empires. The body of the eagle was one, which meant common interests and origins, but with two heads facing west and east. Such an eagle was adopted as the emblem of the empire by Constantine the Great (272 - 337), or under other sources, Justinian I (483 - 565). Apparently, much later, the same symbolic significance was attached to the double-headed eagle of Austria-Hungary.

But the double-headed eagle was not an official symbol of the Byzantine Empire, as many believe. It was the emblem of the Paleologue dynasty, which ruled 1261 - 1453, and not the whole Byzantine state. In the Muslim world, which took the ancient Indo-European (Aryan) symbolism, the two-headed eagle personified the highest, including military, authority of the sultan, who was represented as a warrior hero, distinguished by courage, will to victory and militancy. The double-headed eagle was located on the Seljuk Turks flag. It was used by the Koni Sultanate (Iconium Sultanate, or the Rum Sultanate, or the Seljuk Sultanate) - a feudal state in Asia Minor that existed from 1077 to 1307. The double-headed eagle is preserved as a symbol of Konya.

Konya

The emblem of the Paleologue dynasty

After the start of the Crusades, the double-headed eagle appears in Western European heraldry. Thus, it is marked on the coins of Ludwig of Bavaria and the emblems of the burgraves of Würzburg and the Counts of Savoy. The German King and Holy Roman Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa (1122 - 1190) was the first to use the black double-headed eagle in his coat of arms. Frederick saw this symbol in Byzantium. Until 1180, the two-headed eagle was not marked on state seals, coins and regalia, as well as on the emperor's personal belongings. Earlier, the eagle was the symbol of the German rulers, but since the emperor Friedrich Barbarossa, both symbols were depicted on the coat of arms of the Holy Roman Empire. Since the 15th century, the double-headed eagle has become the state emblem of the Holy Roman Empire. The eagle was depicted black on a golden shield, with golden beaks and claws, heads surrounded by haloes. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, the double-headed eagle was the emblem of Austria-Hungary. In addition, in Serbia, the double-headed eagle became the emblem of the Nemanjic family. It was the ruling dynasty in the XII-XIV centuries.

Double-headed eagle on the coat of arms of the Holy Roman Empire

Russ

In Russia, the double-headed eagle was marked in the XIII century in the Chernigov principality, and in the XV century - in the Tver and Moscow principalities. Had some walking double-headed eagle and the Golden Horde. Some coins of the Golden Horde with the image of a two-headed eagle have been preserved. Some researchers even claim that the double-headed eagle was the State Emblem of the Horde. But most historians do not support this version. The seal of Ivan III Vasilyevich, which was inherited from Vasily II Vasilyevich, depicted a lion who tormented a snake (the lion was a symbol of the Vladimir principality). At the end of the 15th century, two new symbols appeared: the rider (rider), who was used in the Old Russian state and the two-headed eagle. The formal reason for using this symbol was the fact that Ivan III's wife was Sophia Paleolog, for whom the eagle was a generic sign. The emblem of the Paleologov was a black silhouette woven by black silk on a golden field. He was deprived of plastic and internal design, in fact, being a flat ornamental emblem.

Thus, the double-headed eagle was known in Russia before the arrival of the Byzantine princess. For example, the “Chronicle of the Cathedral of Constance” by Ulrich von Riczenthal from 1416, the coat of arms of Russia with the image of a two-headed eagle was placed. The two-headed eagle was not a symbol of the Byzantine Empire, and the great Russian princes accepted it to emphasize their equality with the Western European monarchs, to be equal to the German emperor.

Peremyshl land (XIII century.)

Chernigov principality

Sovereign Ivan III took the appearance of this emblem in the Russian Empire very seriously. For contemporaries of the Grand Duke, the kinship of the Byzantine imperial dynasty with the house of Rurik was an act of great importance. In fact, Russia disputed the rights of the strongest state of Western Europe - the Holy Roman Empire to this symbol. Moscow Grand Dukes began to rely on the successors of the Roman and Byzantine emperors. From the first half of the 16th century, Elder Filofei will formulate the concept of “Moscow - the Third Rome”. According to this concept, there were two Romes in history, the third stands (Moscow), and “there should not be a fourth”. Moscow became the heir to the Christian and Messianic traditions of Rome and Constantinople. Ivan III the Great adopted this emblem not only as a dynastic sign of his wife, but as a heraldic symbol of the Russian state in the future. The first reliable use of the double-headed eagle as the state symbol of the emblem dates back to the 1497 year, when the grand-ducal letter to the land holdings of the individual princes was sealed with red wax. The front and back sides of the print carried the image of a double-headed eagle and a horseman hitting a snake. At the same time, images of a gilded double-headed eagle on a red field appeared on the walls of the Faceted Chamber in the Kremlin.

The Byzantine eagle on Russian soil acquired new features, "Russified". In Russia, the previously simplified, lifeless graphic silhouette, filled with flesh, comes to life, ready to fly. This is a powerful, menacing bird. The eagle's breast is covered by the most ancient, primordial Russian symbol - the Heavenly Warrior, the Winner of evil, the patron of the military principle of Russia (Perun - George the Victorious). The eagle was depicted in gold on a red field.

During the reign of Tsar Ivan IV, the double-headed eagle finally became the emblem of Russia. First, the emblem of the Russian kingdom was supplemented with a unicorn, and then a horse-serpent rider. The rider was traditionally perceived as an image of the sovereign - “the prince is great on a horse, and having a spear in the hand”. That is, the king in Russia, according to the most ancient Aryan tradition, was the embodiment of Perun - George the Victorious - the defender of the Truth on Earth. Before the reign of Mikhail Romanov, there were two crowns above the heads of the eagle. Between them depicted a Russian eight-pointed cross - a symbol of Orthodoxy. Only in the large seal of Boris Godunov, the three heads of the eagle appear for the first time, they designated the Kazan, Astrakhan and Siberian kingdoms. Finally, the third crown appeared in 1625 year, it was introduced instead of the cross. From now on, three crowns signified Holy Trinity, at a later time, from the end of the 19th century, they began to consider the symbol of the trinity of the three parts of the Russian superethnos — Great Russians, Little Russians, and Belarusians. Since the reign of Alexei Mikhailovich, the Russian eagle almost always holds the scepter and orb in his hands.

From the 15th to the mid-17th century, the Russian eagle was always depicted with wings lowered, which was determined by the Eastern heraldic tradition. Only on some seals of False Dmitry, apparently under Western influence, are the wings of an eagle raised. In addition, on one of the seals of False Dmitry I, the serpent-rider was turned to the right according to the Western European heraldic tradition.

During the reign of Tsar Peter Alekseevich, with the approval of the Order of Sts. Andrew the First-Called, the Moscow coat of arms is almost always surrounded by a chain of the Order. The double-headed eagle itself. Under the influence of Western traditions, it becomes black. The rider from 1699 began to be officially called St. George. Under Empress Anna Ioannovna, a specially invited engraver, I. K. Gedlinger, prepared the State Seal for 1727, which will survive until the 1740 of the year with minor changes. Emperor Pavel Petrovich, who became the grandmaster of the Order of Malta, in 1856, will introduce the Maltese cross on the chest into the Russian coat of arms, on which the Moscow coat of arms will be placed. If it is, an attempt will be made to develop and introduce the full coat of arms of the Russian Empire. By the year 1799 will be prepared a complex coat of arms, which will be 1800 coat of arms. But before the death of Paul this emblem will not have time to take.

Coat of arms of the Moscow principality (XV century)

The coat of arms of the Russian kingdom (XVII century)

State Emblem of Russia (1730 g.)

Russian coat of arms proposed by Emperor Paul I (1800 g.)

State Emblem of Russia (1825 g.)

It must be said that before the reign of Alexander III, the Russian double-headed eagle was never exactly established by law. Therefore, the form, details, attributes and character changed in various reigns very easily and often significantly. So on the coins of the XVIII century, apparently, under the influence of Peter's dislike for Moscow, the eagle was depicted without the coat of arms of the old capital. The scepter and orb sometimes were replaced by a laurel branch, a sword and other emblems. By the end of the reign of Alexander I, the eagles were given not a heraldic, but a completely arbitrary form, which they borrowed in France. It was first placed on silverware made for the imperial house in France. This two-headed eagle had widely spread wings and held in its paws thunder arrows, a rod and a torch (in the right), a laurel crown (in the left) interlaced with ribbons. The dynastic St. Andrew’s chain disappeared, a heart-shaped, pointed shield with the Moscow coat of arms appeared on the eagle’s chest.

Under Nicholas I, there were two types of coat of arms. The simplified coat of arms had only basic elements. On the second on the wings title emblems: Kazan, Astrakhan, Siberian (on the right), Polish, Tauride and Finnish (on the left). The emblem itself is extremely monumental, harmoniously included in the new architectural style, known as the “Nikolaev Empire”. Wings like spread over Russia, as if protecting her. Heads are formidable and powerful.

Under the emperor Alexander II, a heraldic reform was carried out, its main author was Baron Koenet. There is a crown over the Moscow coat of arms, with St.. George is depicted in the image of a medieval knight in silver armor. The shape of an eagle is heraldic. On the small state emblem also appeared shields with the emblems of the territories within the Russian state. 11 April 1857 took a whole set of coats of arms - Large, Medium and Small State Emblems and other, only one hundred and ten drawings.

Large state emblem of the Russian Empire (1857 g.)

Large state emblem of the Russian Empire (1882 g.)

Small State Emblem of the Russian Empire (1883 g.)

In the 1892 year, during the reign of Alexander III, an exact description of the state emblem appears in the Code of Laws of the Russian Empire. The St. Andrew chain will return to the eagle's chest. Black feathers will thicken the chest, necks and widely spread wings. Paws carry scepter and orb. The beaks of the eagles are ominously opened and the tongues are prostrated. The fiery gaze of fiery eyes faces east and west. The view of the eagle was solemn, impressive and formidable. On the wings were placed the arms. On the right: Kazan, Polish, Chersonesos of the Tauride kingdoms, united coat of arms of Kiev, Vladimir and Novgorod princedoms. On the left wing: the Astrakhan, Siberian, Georgian kingdoms, the Grand Duchy of Finland.

As a national symbol of the Russian people and Russian statehood, the two-headed eagle passed through three dynasties of the Russian autocrats — Rurikovich, Godunov and Romanov — without losing the significance of the supreme state emblem. The two-headed eagle also survived during the Provisional Government, when the swastika competed with it - a sign of the sun and a symbol of eternity. The Provisional Government postponed the decision on the state emblem until the Constituent Assembly was convened, and placed a double-headed eagle redrawn from the seal of Ivan III, without crowns, scepter, orb, shield with George the Victorious on the eagle's chest, etc.

Coat of arms of the Russian Republic (1917 g.)

For the first state emblem of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, the hammer and sickle emblem was chosen, which was originally intended for the state seal. At the top of the coat of arms were located the letters of the RSFSR. Apart from these letters in the coat of arms, the first Soviet state sign was made in accordance with the heraldic canons. The main image is the hammer and sickle emblem in the rays of the rising sun. The motto emphasized the political orientation of the distinctive sign of the socialist state. In 1978, a red star was added at the top of the emblem.

2-th Congress of the Soviets of the USSR 31 January 1924 approved the constitution, where it was stated that the coat of arms of the USSR consists of a sickle and hammer on the globe, depicted in the sun and framed with ears, twined with a red ribbon with the inscription on it - "Proletarians of all countries , unite! The inscription was in six languages ​​- Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian, Georgian, Armenian, Turkic-Tatar. Upstairs is a red five-pointed star. With the change in the number of union republics, the inscription on the tape was given in 1937-1946. in 11 languages, in 1946-1956's. - on 16, from 1956, on - in 15 languages.

The coat of arms of the RSFSR was used before the 1993 year, only the inscription on the shield - “Russian Federation” - was changed. In 1993, the double-headed eagle returned to the coat of arms of the Russian state. The proposed project of the state emblem - a two-headed eagle without crowns, scepter, orc and other "royal" attributes - was rejected, remaining on metallic money as the emblem of the Central Bank. The two-headed eagle became the emblem, the drawing of which was made based on the small emblem of the Russian Empire - in a different color scheme, without territorial emblems on the wings of an eagle, without a chain of the Order of St. Andrew the First Called. According to the Constitution of the Russian Federation, the state emblem of the Russian Federation, its description and the procedure for official use are established by federal constitutional law. Such a law - “On the State Emblem of the Russian Federation” - was adopted on December 25. 2000. The coat of arms is a quadrangular, with rounded lower corners, pointed at the tip of a red heraldic shield with a golden two-headed eagle, which has raised its wings upwards. The eagle is crowned with two small crowns and above them with one big crown connected by a ribbon. In the right paw of an eagle - a scepter, in the left - power. On the chest of an eagle, in a red shield, is a silver rider in a blue raincoat on a silver horse, striking a silver spear of a black tilted dragon backwards and trampled by a horse. Reproduction of the emblem in one-color version, as well as without a heraldic shield, is allowed.

Now, the double-headed eagle is a symbol of eternity of the Russian statehood, its continuity with the great empires of antiquity. Two heads of an eagle remind of the historical need for Russia-Russia to defend the frontiers in the West and the East. Three crowns over their heads, fastened with a single ribbon, symbolize the unity of the three parts of Russia (Russian civilization) - Great Russia, Little Russia and White Russia. Scepter and orb indicate the inviolability of the state foundations of our country. The eagle's chest, protected by a shield depicting a serpent horseman, points to the historical mission of the Russian people on Earth — the fight against evil in all its manifestations. Departure from this program leads to confusion and the collapse of the Russian statehood. Historically, Russia-Russia is the defender of the Truth on Earth. At the present time, when involution (simplification) and degradation have engulfed humanity, and the West has spread the idea of ​​a “golden calf” (materialism) to the entire planet, which has led to global turmoil, this is especially important. The fall of the Russian civilization, which is the bearer of ethics of conscience on the planet, will lead to a global catastrophe (the destruction of the current human civilization).

Double-headed eagle returned to us. This ancient symbol is at least six to seven thousand years old. Let us hope that other undeservedly forgotten ones, and even specially desecrated generic symbols and signs of the Rus super-ethnos (as a solstice) will eventually be fully returned and will eventually occupy a worthy place in Russia-Russia. They kept the Rus Slavs for thousands of years.

Modern state emblem of the Russian Federation

Comments

[apro]

Looking at the coat of arms of modern Russia, is it really possible that we have a monarchy, mantle crowns and other piers? Or is there room for transformation? Or will it fit in organically?
The mutant with two heads is the legacy of the ancestors, the big question is, maybe this is a sign of the clan, coat of arms of the ruling family group, and came to Russia from Byzantium.

[avva2012]

You know, the two-headed coat of arms for the modern political system of the country is just right. It is not clear that we have the remnants of socialism and capitalism. Chimera.

[0255]

Quote: avva2012

You know, the two-headed coat of arms for the modern political system of the country is just right. It is not clear that we have the remnants of socialism and capitalism. Chimera.

I like the double-headed eagle, a beautiful coat of arms.

[avva2012]

He is beautiful, then he is beautiful, no doubt, but the coat of arms reflects the political structure of the state. The imperial eagle, corresponding to its time, the emblem of the USSR, too, but modern, why?

[Boris55]

Quote: avva2012

and modern, why?

And the modern - as a symbol of the restoration of the slave system in Russia.
No matter how the social system is called (feudalism, capitalism, etc. ism) - these are all forms reflecting the stages of improving slavery.

[veteran66]

Quote: Boris55

No matter how the social system is called (feudalism, capitalism, etc. ism) - these are all forms reflecting the stages of improving slavery.

I think communism also entered the "isms"?

[Boris55]

Quote: veteran66

... I think communism also entered into "isms"?

Yes, with the exception of the Stalinist period of rule.

[veteran66]

Quote: Boris55

Yes, with the exception of the Stalinist period of rule.

the heyday of slavery ???

[Boris55]

It depends. For the majority - grace, For crooks, thieves and crooks - slavery, they did not allow outrageous behavior.

[veteran66]

Quote: Boris55

It depends. For most, grace

no more than a week ago he talked with a man of 87 years old, he was lucky to catch him alive, the last military call, but he didn’t fight anymore, he served in defeated Germany, in a sober mind and a firm memory, and he was “biased” questioned about his life different general secretaries. I think for these words

Quote: Boris55

For most, grace

He would have lousy you, in spite of his doctoral rank and art historian.

[Boris55]

Quote: veteran66

... he would have cursed you, despite his doctorate art historian...

Art critic, then you say?

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Boris55

Art critic, then you say?

Gus art critic was, one hundred pounds!
According to the article - with all due respect to Samsonov, but I don’t agree on this -

The horseman symbolizes the Thunderer (Perun, Indra, Thor, etc.), which strikes a snake (symbol of Veles-Volos, Lord of Navi)

The Russian people have never been associated with Veles-Volos with a snake, and the same with Navu. Veles was the patron saint of the peasants, it was him who made sacrifice-trebs when they wanted a good harvest, and he was asked to protect the cattle from diseases and wolves.

[Rastas]

Art historians, as you know, at all times were noble weathercocks. Therefore, references to the imaginary or non-imaginary 87-year-old art historian are inappropriate here. They could calmly write denunciations in the 30s and shout about innocently convicted in the 80s. The famous letter to Yeltsin in October 93 is enough to recall the call for reprisal against the defenders of the Armed Forces. It’s hard to imagine a bigger cesspool.

[Looking for]

You first think of something believable, and then write. If a person is 87 years old, then he was born in 1931. And the LAST draft year in 1945 was 1927 .. What do you want to say. That 15-year-olds were called !!!! ! Therefore, these 87-year-old “veterans” of the Great Patriotic War are indignant. They can be veterans of anything from Korean, Hungarian, Czech companies (and HONOR them for this and PRAISED), BUT NO WWII.

[Magus]

I doubt your words. I doubt it very much.

[0255]

Quote: Boris55

It depends. For the majority - grace, For crooks, thieves and crooks - slavery, they did not allow outrageous behavior.

My grandfather, who made Stalin's time, also scolds him, saying that he was then planted and shot only like that.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: 0255

says that then they planted and shot just like that.

Do you still feel that the Old Man is in association with Stalin?

[Monarchist]

I was born and raised in a peasant family, found old people who remember collectivization, my mother is a member of the labor front. Almost everyone has mixed feelings for Stalin: pride in the country and resentment for taxes.
After the war there were terrible taxes on: a cow, before Stalin there was no tax on cows, on birds, trees, but in Georgia they did not know taxes and lived like cheese in butter.

[Magus]

My ancestors, who found collectivization, all unanimously asserted that Stalin did the right thing. And I have never heard anything bad about Stalin from them.

[Fitter65]

Quote: 0255

My grandfather, who made Stalin's time, also scolds him, saying that he was then planted and shot only like that.

But my grandfathers and grandmothers didn’t remember anything bad about Stalin, but it was hard, but after the war they healed, not like under Khrushchev. By the way, don’t you remember which ruler’s wife gave the plane to the Motherland? My grandmother-kingdom of heaven, when this I remembered the incident, said that there was nothing to give to Stalin, he raised the country. And they always were and will be slaves, the same Makarevich is an example to you. In youth, the Komsomol “fought the regime” and was treated kindly by this regime. There was no regime who fed him and everything was blown away by the freedom fighter. Only a slave will be in EMI forces prove to others that he is free, unless of course it will feed the other host.

[Pancer]

Quote: 0255

My grandfather, who made Stalin's time, also scolds him, saying that he was then planted and shot only like that.

You have someone, you also want everything that is now in Belarus and the Russian Federation, looking with lust west.
It’s a pity that Grandpa didn’t receive the due ...
My grandfathers, they don’t say ANYTHING about that time, there are a lot of POSITIVES, and your moans. These are the moans of those who wrote denunciations, and then, being caught on this, settled the camps, criminals and other hucksters ...

[Pancer]

Quote: veteran66

the heyday of slavery ???

Liberal since 92 years old? Yes, exactly. But this is not clear to you, your mental apparatus is imprisoned in false knowledge. Repeating a lot of mantur machines in the courtyards ...

[avva2012]

Quote: Boris55 And the modern - as a symbol of the restoration of the slave system in Russia.

Of course, we are not at a scientific conference, but we need one methodology, otherwise we will become either like children in a sandbox or patients of a mournful house. You can leave this definition, classic. Slave system It was the first socio-economic formation in the history of human society based on the exploitation of man by man. Slavery was openly forced labor of producers - slaves who were in of property owners of the means of production — slave owners and those who were used on their farms to produce surplus products. PS: The slave is not in the full sense of man, he is a living machine, no more. So far, fortunately, the attitude in our country towards citizens is not at that level.

[Boris55]

Quote: avva2012

... Slavery was openly forced labor of producers ...

And now the same thing about modern Russia: Social system in Russia was openly forced labor of producers - citizens of Russia ....
The citizens of Russia have a choice - to work for the employer (directly or through intermediaries for the slave owner) and for this not to starve to death or not to work and die.

1. The modern slave is forced to work without stopping to death, because the funds earned by the slave for 1 month are enough to pay for housing for 1 month, food for 1 month and travel for 1 month. It turns out that the modern slave is forced to work all his life to death. Pension for a slave is a fiction, because it is completely lacking in order to live.
2. The second mechanism of covert coercion of slaves to work is the creation of artificial demand for unnecessary goods that are imposed on the slave through TV advertising, PR, fashion, prestige, etc. The modern slave is involved in an endless race for "new products", and, therefore, is forced to constantly work.
3. The third hidden mechanism of economic coercion of modern slaves is the credit system, with the help of which modern slaves are more and more drawn into credit bondage through the mechanism of interest on loans. Every day, the modern slave needs more and more, because in order to pay off one loan, the slave takes a new loan, thereby creating a pyramid of endless debts. The debt, constantly hanging over a modern slave, stimulates him to work even for a meager pay, makes him more accommodating and more compliant, and does not allow protesting against the insolent oppression of the slave owner.
4. The fourth mechanism to get modern slaves to work for a hidden slave owner is the myth of the state. The modern slave believes that he works for the state, which equally reflects the interests of all segments of the population. But in reality, the slave works for a structure that reflects only the interests of slave owners - for a kind of committee for managing the affairs of slave owners, for the slave state exists for that purpose to provide the slave owners with a profit by squeezing it out of the slaves. The products produced by the slave, the money earned and taken away by the slave owners and their state in the form of payment for the goods and services necessary for the slave, in the form of various taxes and payments, go again into the pocket of the slave owners. The concept of “state” is replaced by the myth of a “state for all” and is used to obscure the brains of slaves so that slaves do not ask unnecessary questions such as: why do slaves work all their lives and always remain poor? Who exactly are the money paid by slaves in the form of taxes, fees, fines and payments?
5. The fifth mechanism of covert coercion of slaves is the inflation mechanism and periodically occurring crises, in which slaves always lose more than slave owners. Rising prices in the absence of an increase in the salary of a slave provides a hidden, invisible robbery of slaves. In crises, this robbery becomes frank - slaves are simply thrown out into the street, leaving without any means of subsistence. Thus, the modern slave is impoverished more and more.
6. The sixth hidden mechanism to make a slave work for free is the method of depriving a slave of funds for moving and buying real estate in another city. This mechanism forces modern slaves to work at the only enterprise in the city and endure the most enslaving conditions, as there is simply no other work in the city for the slaves, and the slaves have nothing and nowhere to escape.
7. The seventh mechanism that forces a slave to work for free is the concealment of information about the real value of the slave's labor, the real value of the goods produced by the slave, about the slave's share earned by the slaveholder, using his private property right.
8. The eighth mechanism of the slave's forced coercion to work is a special ideology, with the help of which people specially bought by the slave owner, often with high scientific titles, inspire the slave that he is not a slave, and that he works only because he wants it (“this is your choice!” "). Smart slaves understand that they cannot work for the slave owner - then they will simply die of starvation, and in fact the slave has no choice. Stupid slaves do not even understand this and boast of their slavery.
9. The ninth mechanism forcing a slave to meekly work for slave owners is the religion, which convinces the slave that a good fair human life for the slave will be in heaven after death, but on the condition that now you have to be a slave on earth and decently suffer. Religion teaches a slave not to resist oppression and to be pleased with his slavery.
Anna Yagodkina

Forms of exploitation are changing and improving. The essence remains the same - parasitism on someone else's work i.e. all the same slavery only in profile.
Need proof - read Forbes magazine.

[veteran66]

Quote: Boris55

The modern slave is forced to work without stopping to death, because the funds earned by the slave for 1 month are enough to pay for housing for 1 month,

Well, yes, only in the yards from cars there is nowhere to go and real estate prices do not fall because of lack of demand, you see, the last people row))))

[Boris55]

Quote: veteran66

Well, yes, only in the yards from cars there is nowhere to go and real estate prices do not fall because of lack of demand, you see, the last people row

How long can an average Russian citizen live without work? A month or two? Well, from the strength of three, and then what? All that amassed overwork on cheap hucksters? Well, another six months. To sell an apartment, a car - they will last another year and that’s all, we arrived - hello garbage containers!
But the slave owners did not work a day, and not even live, and do not cough.
Are you comfortable with this situation? I am not. To each according to his work.

[veteran66]

Quote: Boris55

Are you comfortable with this situation? I am not. To each according to his work.

“but take everything away and share ..” heard this from Sharikov.

[Boris55]

Quote: veteran66

“but take everything away and share ..” heard this from Sharikov.

Do not repeat liberal nonsense. Under Stalin, artels were not bad at work and earned. But starting with Khrushchev - they really took everything away.

[Caretaker]

Quote: veteran66

Quote: Boris55

Are you comfortable with this situation? I am not. To each according to his work.

“but take everything away and share ..” heard this from Sharikov.

From Mikhail Afanasevich Bulgakov.
Sharikov is a fictional character. You will not give examples from the cartoon "Vacations in Prostokvashino", or "Well, wait a minute!"?

[Looking for]

Well, then he and Sharikov, to grind rubbish.

[Magus]

Under the Soviet system, everything was taken away and forcibly driven into collective farms that even in 1940 there were individual farmers in the village and the artels continued to work until the 50s, until Khrushchev banned them.

[Pissarro]

and how long can any person live without work anywhere in the world? The question itself is delusional
even slaveholders are forced to work, otherwise the slave system will fall apart

[Boris55]

Quote: Pissarro

... even slaveholders are forced to work, otherwise the slave system will fall apart ...

The problem is that they do not justify themselves a high price for their managerial work, hide management knowledge from the people, which ensures the transfer of government over generations, but this leads to their degradation and, as a result, the degradation of the whole society as a whole.
We are used to the fact that the change of dehydrated elites occurs by force. With a violent change of power, an elite change takes place, but not the slave system itself ... Is there a way to save mankind from slavery - is it not violent.

[Aleksandr12]

Do you want to live and not work? Promote idleness. Only constant labor made a man out of a monkey. And if a person stops working, he will climb a tree again . And here it doesn’t matter who you work for yourself or for uncle. And I didn’t catch something in your postulates about small business, when a person works for himself and no one forces him (neither the boss nor the Labor Code).

[Boris55]

Quote: Alexander12

Do you want to live and not work? Promote idleness. Only constant labor made a man out of a monkey. And if a person stops working, he will climb a tree again

I call for justice in the distribution of labor results. Regarding the fact that labor made a monkey out of a monkey ... mental work made a monkey out of a monkey, and physical work turned it into a draft horse.

[Pancer]

Quote: Alexander12

Only constant labor made a man out of a monkey. And if a person stops working, he will climb a tree again

Have apartment owners in Moscow turned into a monkey who were fortunate enough to get an inheritance and rent it out, while not working a day, as one 25-year-old said, I have income from three apartments-100000 bucks, for which I have to work, it’s a question. Who?

[tyr]

Quote: Alexander12

Only the constant labor of a monkey made man

Yes? And why didn’t he make a “man” out of any other living being? Or all the other loafers? Was one such uniquely working monkey found?

[Magus]

Do you believe in a monkey? Even Darwin abandoned his theory ...

[Monarchist]

And your Forbes did not say when you can not work and not rob, but satisfying to live?

[0255]

Quote: Boris55

No matter how the social system is called (feudalism, capitalism, etc. ism) - these are all forms reflecting the stages of improving slavery.

Under capitalism, a person exploits a person, and under socialism, on the contrary

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: 0255

Under capitalism, a person exploits a person, and under socialism, on the contrary

Not this way. Under capitalism, man exploits society, and under socialism, society exploits man!

[Pancer]

Quote: Ingvar 72

under socialism, society exploits man!

But is this society itself not made up of people?
And are the results of human labor not going to increase the welfare of a society consisting of those same people. Unlike capitalism ... where is growth, but in a single, limited group, to the detriment of other people?

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Pancer

And are the results of human labor not going to increase the welfare of society

They are coming. But this system has an Achilles heel - there is a desire to freeze and parasitize on society, it is worth loosening the control a little. And later these parasites kill this system.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Ingvar 72

They are coming. But this system has an Achilles heel - there is a desire to freeze and parasitize on society, it is worth loosening the control a little. And later these parasites kill this system

This is not an Achilles heel. This is a relic of capitalism that has been successfully fought. Parasites, thieves and freeloaders were imprisoned, re-educated ...
But, unfortunately, with the beginning of perestroika, they ceased to struggle with them, and so many of them bred that they established their thieves' power.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Alexander Green

with the beginning of perestroika

Earlier, when Khrushchev after the death of Stalin weakened the reins. All the rot climbed up, and reaching the top, initiated perestroika, actually surrendering the country.

[Ragoz]

Boris55.
Remembered:
In various ways the powers
Coats of arms decorated their
Here is a leopard, a double-headed eagle and a lion rearing up
But not a leopard, not a lion, not a lioness
Our coat of arms adorned ourselves
And a golden wreath of wheat,
Mighty hammer, sharp sickle.
We do not threaten other nations
We take care of our homeland
Where is the place under the sky
For all who honestly feeds on labor!

[veteran66]

Quote: avva2012

The imperial eagle, corresponding to its time, the emblem of the USSR, too, but modern, why?

But what about the story? Do you know many states that change their coats of arms to suit the passage of time? I don't take banana countries as an example. We replaced the "cabbage" with Eagle and did it right.

[avva2012]

We replaced the "cabbage" with Eagle and did it right.

You mean this "cabbage", right?

[veteran66]

Quote: avva2012

You mean this "cabbage", right?

and you must definitely apply some kind of speculation on symbols. cover the "cabbage" with the banner of a combat regiment. Yes, just such a "cabbage", only without your speculations and such an Eagle
if you want to. This is the Banner of the Life Guards Preobrazhensky Regiment, no less well-deserved unit.

[avva2012]

And what does speculation have to do with it? I did not buy anything for cheap, and then I did not sell for expensive. The coat of arms of the Republic of Ingushetia, I did not insult by word or deed, nor could I, because this is all my Motherland. And on the basis of anti-Sovietism, dyspeptic disorders are severe, since you are the so-called emblem of the country that won the Great War.

[veteran66]

Quote: avva2012

But on the basis of anti-Sovietism, dyspeptic disorders are severe, since you are the so-called emblem of the country that won the Great War.

this is me in response to the "mutant", answered another mutant

[avva2012]

Well, so answer targeted. I don’t know how it is with you, but in my family there are victims who fought under the red banner. Yes, and I still consider myself a Soviet person.

[veteran66]

Quote: avva2012

Well, so answer targeted.

if you are already wedged in a dialogue, then take the trouble to at least read it all before writing answers.

Quote: avva2012

in my family there are victims who fought under the red banner.

not only with you.

Quote: avva2012

hovered under the red banner.

I hope not in civil?

[Magus]

Quote: veteran66

I hope not in civil?

All my great-grandfathers fought in the Civil War under the Red Banner, driving the "owners" from their land. And at 41, my ancestors also stood up to defend their homeland under the Red Banner.

[Looking for]

But why on the banner of the unit with the 300-year history of the monogram of Nicholas II and only? I don’t think that the banner changed depending on the change of monarch.

[albert]

Quote: veteran66

Changed "cabbage" to the Eagle

Since the Soviet Coat of Arms is "cabbage" for you, then your "eagle" is nothing more than a mutant chicken !!!

[Magus]

I like the Soviet coat of arms. Beautiful and semantic.

[EvgNik]

It is not clear that we have the remnants of socialism and capitalism. Chimera.

That chimera and had to be made a coat of arms, And even better Medusa Gorgon.

[voyaka uh]

Symbol ... not really. All empires that he had in his coat of arms - disappeared
from the historical process. Two heads in one body, and even in different directions? - as if
Siamese twins. They do not know where to go, and do not decide and do not fly up ...

There practical Americans left one scared head - and stick forward like buffalos.

[Olgovich]

Quote: apro

Looking at the coat of arms of modern Russia, is it really possible that we have a monarchy, crown maces and others piers?

This horse is the mooring. Hetman's Mace
And on the Coat of Arms of RussiaScepter, Power and Crowns. In Russia, not a monarchy, but the emblem symbolizes the continuity of the thousand-year history of Russia and its closest connection with the glorious past.

Quote: apro

Is an mutant with two heads ancestral heritage, a big question

Article 329. The Criminal Code of the Russian Federation.

Violation of the State Emblem of the Russian Federation -

shall be punishable by restraint of liberty for a term of up to one year, or by forced labor for the same term, or by arrest for a term of three to six months, or imprisonment for up to one year.

You may not love, but respect -required.

Coat of arms of Russiawonderful!

[apro]

Quote: Olgovich

And on the Coat of Arms of Russia-Scepter, Power and Crown. In Russia, not a monarchy, but the emblem symbolizes the continuity of the thousand-year history of Russia and its closest connection with the glorious past.

Then where is the hammer and sickle on the coat of arms?

[Olgovich]

Quote: apro

Quote: Olgovich

And on the Coat of Arms of Russia-Scepter, Power and Crown. In Russia, not a monarchy, but the emblem symbolizes the continuity of the thousand-year history of Russia and its closest connection with the glorious past.

Then where is the sickle and hammer?

Where the wrench and mount

[apro]

Quote: Olgovich

Where the wrench and mount

So the Soviet era does not fit into modern Russia? It is fraught with ....

[EvgNik]

Where the wrench and mount

Exactly, the proletariat is practically destroyed, however, like the village. The state of menagers. So a computer keyboard, and a fountain pen, as a symbol of the past, will perfectly fit the coat of arms.

[veteran66]

Quote: EvgNik

the proletariat is practically destroyed

and who works in factories?

Quote: EvgNik

however, like the village.

well, the village started to “extrude” under commies, so we are reaping the benefits ... although for some reason there is more bread than in the USSR.

[murriou]

Quote: veteran66

For some reason there is more bread than in the USSR.

Maybe because the king had 86% of the population of peasants, 6 per 1 citizen, and by the end of the 1st five-year plan, 33% of the population began to live in cities, and only 1 peasants per 2 citizen, but industry became developed, and at the same time have agricultural productivity and efficiency also improved significantly?

Maybe because your statistics, as always, sinned with guile and fraud?

[Gopnik]

Is your first five-year plan over in 1939? And then by its beginning, in 1926, 18% of the population lived in the city.

Quote: murriou

and at the same time, agricultural productivity and efficiency also improved significantly?

Yeah, so many times that right after its end, hunger, one of the worst, erupted.

[veteran66]

Quote: murriou

Maybe because your statistics, as always, sinned with guile and fraud?

Yes, it sins, only Soviet statistics, therefore - yours.

[EvgNik]

and who works in factories?

Sorry, in which factories? Our company employed more than 6 thousand people, now less than 800 people, the latter are being handed over for scrap, and so at most factories in Russia. Take an interest in the state of factories in Moscow, in Tula, my friends live there, so I know the situation.
Bread can be harvested even more, but we are fed with bread from flour of the 5th category, which in Soviet times was not considered bread, but was feed grain. In Soviet times, this was unacceptable. Now we are considered cattle. So, darling.

[veteran66]

Quote: EvgNik

Sorry, in which factories? Our company employed more than 6 thousand people, now less than 800 people,

this is because in a socialist economy, four people sharpened one bolt, and now, on a CNC machine, one out of ten gives the norm

Quote: EvgNik

we are fed bread from category 5 flour,

firstly, not flour, but grain; secondly, not categories, but classes; thirdly, they only ask for permission to use grain of the 4th class, but after improving it with higher grades, and this is normal practice not only in the world, but also in the USSR. As the saying goes: "Chuv dzіn, she does not know de win"

[EvgNik]

this is because in a socialist economy, four people sharpened one bolt, and now, on a CNC machine, one out of ten gives the norm

Complete nonsense. We were the first to go for scrap metal. And 800 people now nothing they don’t produce, everything is scrapped. And so at most factories in the Urals, but throughout the country. Excluding some defense enterprises. If you do not want to see this, then this is exclusively your problem.
And I take bread in the store, very little, because it is inedible. You may be given in a special dispenser. Come on ...

[veteran66]

Quote: EvgNik

Complete nonsense. We were the first to go for scrap metal. And 800 people aren’t producing anything right now,

And we have built two huge factories, at first everywhere the ads were hung up "Operators of CNC machine tools are required", and now you can only get there by pull. Yes, and in the old factories are invited to work on working specialties.

Quote: EvgNik

You may be given in a special dispenser.

special distributors are the lot of loafers commies (functionaries from the party), and the bread is different, I prefer "S .... cue rye" in the cut. I miss him for a day. And if you take 20 re for a loaf, then you can go on d ... mo, by the way, in the scoop, too, there was such a 10 kopeck loaf, our neighboring state farmers fed them cattle. Do not cling to good food and will not

Quote: EvgNik

On d ... mo proceed.

and you will be happy.

[Looking for]

Firstly, bread is baked from flour, not from grain. And the mention of flour is absolutely correct. I consider all those who pour dirt on the USSR to MORAL ROT.

[MrK]

Quote: veteran66

although for some reason there is more bread than in the USSR

True, the Russian Union of Bread Producers has been shouting for the second year now that grains of the right quality for baking bread are sorely lacking. And they bake us western additive bread. Which cause gradual infertility, both in women and in men. Apparently this is very pleasing to the veteran66. But all these are trifles.

The main thing is different. There are two democracies. Bourgeois and popular. What a democracy. Such a coat of arms with all the attributes.
And the fact that the veteran 66 defends bourgeois democracy means that he settled down (grabbed) well in the privatization process. Other options are possible.
The main thing is that he defends bourgeois power.
Therefore, I ask a question. Is it worth arguing? Will something change from your argument?
This site is used to release steam.

About the proletariat. The proletariat, a century ago, defended and defended its interests with its blood. What is the current one doing? Trembling for his workplace.
And even the trade unions are efficient, bourgeois cannot create. Do not be offended. But this is not the proletariat. Maybe strike breakers?

And to cheer you up, I’ll give a joke. Here someone wrote about a fountain pen. So here if you attach a fountain pen to a male member, you get a corresponding member.
There are not many of them on the site, but they do all the weather.
Best regards

[veteran66]

Quote: mrark

And the fact that the veteran66 defends bourgeois democracy means that he settled down well (grabbed) in the process of privatization.

during the privatization process, I “grabbed” two privatization checks, which I sold to hucksters at 4000 re each, while I served in the army. What I have now, I earned by honest service, and if your life did not work out, then there is nothing to hang on other "dogs". More all sorts of losers here will give me ratings.

[RUSS]

Quote: Olgovich

Where the wrench and mount

You can and a hoe with a machete as the coat of arms of Angola

[Looking for]

Wait, you bastard. And we will restore the Union, and we will outweigh the monarchist and liberal bastard. Give me only a term.

[Rivares]

Here is the coat of arms of Austria ... with a hammer and sickle, an old symbol of the victory of the Jews and the Masons ... And we were told that this is a symbol of labor !!))

[veteran66]

Quote: Rivares

The old symbol of the victory of the Jews and the Masons.

what are they glamorous ....

[RUSS]

Quote: apro

Then where is the hammer and sickle on the coat of arms?

On the arms of Austria

[Caretaker]

Quote: Olgovich

You may not love, but respect, you must.

Like the coat of arms of the Soviet Union on the banner of the 55th artillery regiment.
Otherwise, how are these detractors better than the Baltic "veterans of the USSR", Bandera or numerous anti-Soviet young Europeans?
Nothing! They are "one blood." And as their ideological predecessors during the Great Patriotic War, they are ready to go over to the side of any enemy, just to destroy everything Soviet.

[siberalt]

In the coat of arms, the main thing is not a bird, but George the Victorious, killing a dragon symbolizing another civilization. And he will be millennia older than the feathered mutant. But what is the German Empire of the Middle Ages did not understand?

[RUSS]

Quote: siberalt

But what is the German Empire of the Middle Ages did not understand?

The Holy Roman Empire is the German medieval Reich (Empire)

[Operator]

The full title is the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation, a confederate association of some European states under the auspices of the Roman Catholic Church from 962 to 1806. The post of emperor was not hereditary, but elective.

[venaya]

Quote: RUSS

Quote: siberalt

But what is the German Empire of the Middle Ages did not understand?

Holy Roman Empire is a German medieval Reich

Quote: Operator

Full title - Holy Roman Empire of the German nation

From memory: "Holy Roman Empire" - arose on the site of the "Empire of the Franks", by killing the last representative from their Merovingian dynasty. In the "Empire of Franks" state. religion was the religion of the "Druids" (worship of the sacred oak), widespread then and here with us. Apparently state. their language was still Russian (their own dialect), Latin began to be imposed after Charlemagne, then they came up with another new language, “German”, it is important that it differs from Russian, apparently that the old religion does not revive. Question: where did the “Germans" come from? Perhaps on behalf of Germanarich, I recall the term "duke" means "leader of the detachment" - clearly a military term. Maybe the Germans just called the military? In any case, the concept of a nation arises in the XNUMXth century, earlier. So where did the "German nation" come from? All this is more like a simple substitution of concepts, and the "German Empire" itself was created only at the end of the XNUMXth century.

[RUSS]

Quote: venaya

From memory: "Holy Roman Empire" - arose on the site of the "Empire of the Franks",

No, you are mistaken, the kingdom of France arose in the place of the state of Franks, and the Holy Roman Empire is precisely the German state - the First Reich (German Altes Reich - “Ancient Reich”) - The Holy Roman Empire of the German nation (962-1806)

[Cat]

Quote: siberalt

In the coat of arms, the main thing is not a bird, but George the Victorious, killing a dragon symbolizing another civilization. And he will be millennia older than the feathered mutant. But what is the German Empire of the Middle Ages did not understand?

Then, change the emblem to “chase”, the rider with the sword! ...... He is by far older than George the Victorious!

[RUSS]

Quote: Kotischa

Then davpityk change the emblem to "chase", a rider with a sword! ...... He is by far older than George the Victorious

Well, this is how to say ..... "Rider" is one of the main elements of the state emblem of Russia.
Currently, it is a “silver horseman in a blue cloak on a silver horse, striking a black spear-tipped back and trampled by a horse with a silver spear.” Among the researchers, the question of the Italian trace in the origin of the Russian horseman was repeatedly raised. Snake drama has been known since ancient historical times (for example, the Sumero-Akkadian Marduk, the Vedic Indra, the Baltic Perkunas, the Slavic Perun). They note that it dates back to pre-Christian cults.

[voyaka uh]

"St. George the Victorious (St. George, St. George of Cappadocia, St. George of Ledda; Greek. Άγιος Γεώργιος) - a Christian saint, a great martyr, the most revered saint of this name. He suffered during the great suffering of the year 303, during the year of 304 beheaded "////

"According to the life, St. George was born in the III century in a family of Christians in Lydda [2] [3], Palestine" ////

The city of Lydd, it is now the city of Lod (Lud) in the center of Israel.
He killed the dragon (most likely a hefty crocodile) in Lebanon, where he arrived at the request of the local king precisely for this purpose.
Both the Greeks and the Arabs venerate George.

[albert]

Quote: Kotischa

When davpaytk change the emblem to "chase", the rider with a sword! ...... He is by far older than George the Victorious!

But this is quite reasonable

[Victor N]

The emblem shows continuity, it is a symbol of power and its discussion is inadmissible, it should be equated with treason.

[ligre]

It is true that associations with this two-headed chicken are not the most rosy, and even antiquity is not an indicator in the end, after all, it’s not an empire now, there is no emperor, another state device, and no one has canceled the October Revolution. By the way, then, with enthusiasm, these people tried to get rid of these eagles first of all. because the Romanovs and these eagles were already sitting in the liver, centuries-old bad associations, treasury and whips, stupidity and arbitrariness of officials and landlords.

[RUSS]

Quote: Liger

That's right, associations with this two-headed chicken

You Belarus in general the coat of arms is a complete misunderstanding ..

Quote: Liger

after all, it’s not an empire now, there is no emperor, the device is another state,

The double-headed eagle was the emblem of both the Principality and the Empire and the beginning of the Soviet Republic. It was decided that it was possible to use images of the double-headed eagle on the seal of the Provisional Government. The design of this seal was entrusted to I.Ya. Bilibin, who took as a basis the image of a two-headed eagle deprived of almost all symbols of power on the seal of Ivan III. This image continued to be used and after the October Revolution, right up to the adoption of the new Soviet coat of arms on July 24, 1918 year.

Quote: Liger

and the October Revolution has not yet been canceled.

Already canceled, now it is part of the Great Russian Revolution

[ligre]

What is still the great Russian revolution, 1991 or 1993, I tell you about the Great October Socialist Revolution of 1917.

[ligre]

Tsarism destroyed itself, well, the majority hated it and did not take these insignificant eagles to the spirit.

[albert]

Quote: RUSS

Already canceled, now it is part of the Great Russian Revolution

Such things are not canceled by the orders of the iPhone. After all, we also canceled the bulbs-hundredths

[RUSS]

Quote: albert

Such things are not canceled by the orders of the iPhone. After all, we also canceled the bulbs-hundredths

Medvedev has nothing to do with this, historians have come to such a decision, by the way, in the new textbook of Russian history, February and October are already united in the Great Russian Revolution

[murriou]

Quote: RUSS

Medvedev has nothing to do with this decision by historians

Well, where does such naivety come from?

These, sorry, ducks will "come" exactly to the conclusion that they ordered from above.
And in Katyn they “came to a conclusion”, although all the supposedly supporting “documents” were hastily concocted and carelessly, and on all other issues exactly the same thing.

And VOSR to the current thieves criminal-oligarchic regime across the throat, like all the successes of the USSR, do not spare black paint and shit in tanks in order to gloss over and ruin everything, but now it doesn’t work out.

But some * individuals * have already got their brains ... painted, as we see.

[RUSS]

Quote: murriou

Quote: RUSS Medvedev has nothing to do with it, historians have come to such a decision. Well, where does such naivety come from?

From here ....
A single history book is an initiative to create a line of history textbooks for high school, proposed by Russian President V.V. Putin. According to the president, textbooks should be free from double interpretations and stylistically verified.

[ligre]

YOU and your historians are just sick people, February and October are so different stories that only an insane person can combine them.

[RUSS]

Quote: Liger

YOU and your historians are just sick people

My historians? Why would they be mine? And Seryozha is not to be rude, you are not at home.

[ligre]

I don’t want to be rude, just well, you can’t be more Russian than Russian, because in fact from the fact that you absolutely do not want to admit the facts, they will not cease to exist.

[murriou]

They are not sick, they are * socially irresponsible women * and quite consciously lie by order of those in power, i.e. that criminal-oligarchic gang that has now seized power, and wants to legalize such an order in the image and likeness of tsarist Russia - not wanting to recognize and assimilate the history of the previous collapse of the same junta.

[Looking for]

Or Kholuy. Dish, Sneak, FIT.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: RUSS

Quote: Liger
and the October Revolution has not yet been canceled.

Already canceled, now it is part of the Great Russian Revolution

Have you still canceled your birthday?

[RUSS]

Quote: Alexander Green

Have you still canceled your birthday?

The decision to unite February and October 17th is not mine
The concept of a single textbook of Russian history lacks the Great October Socialist Revolution. This stage of Russian history in the new textbook is described as a continuation of "Great Russian Revolution. "
Historians explain that they initially formulated the task of refusing the October Revolution to recognize its “great” and “socialist”. At the same time, many citizens advocated that one way or another mention of her remained. "As a result, the textbook speaks of the Great Russian Revolution, which went through several stages in its development.

[murriou]

Quote: RUSS

Historians explain that they initially formulated the task of refusing the October Revolution to recognize its “great” and “socialist”.

sincere recognition softens, as they say

[RUSS]

Quote: murriou

sincere recognition softens, as they say

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: RUSS

Historians explain that they initially formulated the task of refusing the October Revolution to recognize its “great” and “socialist”.

Well, we wish historians to combine the birthdays of their family members into one and call this day a BIRTHDAY “GREAT” FAMILY PSEUDOISTORIAN.

[Magus]

Judging by the fact that November 7 is not considered a holiday in our country and it is not even remembered, then we can say that it was canceled.

[ligre]

Mutant with two heads)))))) definitely plus

[parusnik]

Let's hope that other undeservedly forgotten, or even specially desecrated tribal symbols and signs of the superethnos of the Russians (like the solstice) will eventually be fully returned

... Well, where will the solstice be placed ...?

[kalibr]

Behind the eagle, as it was on the banknotes of the Provisional Government! And in the hands of an eagle, a sickle and a hammer will be fine at all!

[parusnik]

Is that so ..

[avva2012]

"And in the hands of an eagle a sickle and a hammer."
It will be plagiarism from the Austrian coat of arms. But the Ukrainian fascists washed the solstice, and do not mix pagan symbols with Christian ones. As they say, "either take off the cross or put on your pants."

[Curious]

The author, as always, suffered to the Aryans, back centuries. And under my nose I forgot to look. Double-headed eagles in coats of arms are not uncommon. Since the XIII century, they appear in the arms of the counts of Savoy and Würzburg, on Bavarian coins, they are known in the heraldry of the knights of Holland and the Balkan countries. At the beginning of the 1806th century, Emperor Sigismund I made the double-headed eagle the emblem of the Holy Roman Empire, and after its collapse in 1919, the double-headed eagle became the emblem of Austria (until XNUMX). Both Serbia and Albania have it in their arms. He is in the arms of the descendants of the Greek emperors.
No, today the article is bad. It was evident that there was no one to write off. And about the Aryans offensively little.

[Curious]

I want to tell the author a topic for tomorrow. In 1573, on April 12, in Novgorod, the wedding of King Livonia Magnus and the niece of Tsar Ivan the Terrible Maria Vladimirovna took place. Obviously the machinations of insidious Anglo-Saxons.

[RUSS]

Quote: Curious

He is in the arms of the descendants of the Greek emperors.

The two-headed bird with a swastika belongs to the group of “Nestorian crosses” discovered at the beginning of the 20th century during excavations in the territory of northwestern China of the Mongol Yuan dynasty (1271-1368). There is a version that the Yuan dynasty is like the descendants of Genghis Khan.

[RUSS]

On the coins of the Golden Horde under the reign of the khans of Uzbek, Dzhanibek and Aziz-Sheikh - a two-headed eagle.

[Han Tengri]

Quote: RUSS

On the coins of the Golden Horde under the reign of the khans of Uzbek, Dzhanibek and Aziz-Sheikh - a two-headed eagle.

In my opinion, this is a two-headed donkey with a broiler body! Well ... or the artist had to put on a stake!

[Operator]

This is an Aryan eagle from the Sogdian mounds, which were excavated by the Mongols and Chinese. Double-headed eagles appeared in Northeast China together with Sogdian Nestorians in the 6th century AD

A fragment of the Sogdian painting of the cave in the Kizil cave (China)

http://maximus101.livejournal.com/129128.html

[venaya]

Quote: Operator

Double-headed eagles appeared in Northeast China together with Sogdian Nestorians in the 6th century AD

It looks like the same place where the mummies of fair-faced, blue-eyed and fair-haired people were found, the female mummy's height of 2,20 meters is clearly tall, mighty moguls, ancient inhabitants of present northern China.

[Operator]

Mummies of normal growth, their age 1000 years older than the Nestorian burials, the haplogroup mummies R1a in contrast to the haplogroup Nestorians J2.

[veteran66]

Quote: kalibr

And in the hands of an eagle, a sickle and a hammer will be fine at all!

that is, the slogan "Mow and score!" will be eternal? )))

[0255]

Quote: veteran66

that is, the slogan "Mow and score!" will be eternal? )))

Well, here 90% dream of mass executions in 1937.

[veteran66]

Quote: 0255

Well, here 90% dream of mass executions in 1937.

and they think that they would sit there on the towers

[0255]

Quote: veteran66

and they think that they would sit there on the towers

Exactly! Eh, to send such to the Stalinist camp, what would they then sing?

[veteran66]

Quote: 0255

what would they sing then?

international of course! Well, they would plow at the construction sites of socialism, strengthen, so to speak, the power of the first in the world ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: 0255

Eh, to send such to the Stalinist camp, what would they then sing?

Their song is simple to idiocy: "And I would never have been sent there, NOT FOR WHAT !!!"

[veteran66]

Quote: Olgovich

NEVER sent, NOT FOR WHAT!

there would be a man, but there would be an article)))) Already such screamers "Glories of comrade!" planted.

[0255]

Quote: veteran66

Quote: Olgovich

NEVER sent, NOT FOR WHAT!

there would be a man, but there would be an article)))) Already such screamers "Glories of comrade!" planted.

Yes, they later wrote complaints “up” and “broke”.

[veteran66]

Quote: 0255

Yes, they later wrote complaints “up” and “broke”.

surrendering the next "faithful Leningrad communists"

[avva2012]

Where is the mass then? You then made us happy with your presence.

[0255]

Quote: avva2012

Where is the mass then? You then made us happy with your presence.

Is this such a subtle hint that I should be shot? If yes, then I hasten to upset you - since you have a church on the profile picture, and even the profile says that you are Orthodox, plus you respect other religions, then you yourself would be repressed in 1937 for "religious dope"

[avva2012]

Sorry, but dope is apparently with you. You write that the executions were massive. I, by my profession, used to collect anamnesis. So, here, more than sure that anti-vetchin is not transmitted through the bite of insects, but usually hereditary. If you are alive and, God forbid, healthy, then the executions in the past were not massive. Someone left.

[0255]

Quote: avva2012

You write that the executions were massive

Witnesses of the Stalin era are still alive who say that repressions and executions WERE that under Stalin they planted only this way, for a sweet soul.

Quote: avva2012

So, here, more than sure that anti-vetchin is not transmitted through the bite of insects, but usually hereditary.

Yes? So my father’s grandfather was an ardent Communist, took me to communist rallies as a child on November 7, said that Stalin only shot enemies, he really hoped that you would become president Zyuganov (for the Communist Party) in Russia, cursed when he saw the Orthodox priest on TV . My father’s grandmother considers herself a communist, but she very much welcomed Gorbachev in the 1980s, Yeltsin and Shushkevich in 1991.
I do not consider myself either an anti-Soviet or a monarchist. I am sorry that the Union collapsed, the great country that stopped Hitler, launched a man into space, really restrained the aggressive policy of the United States.
But at the same time I do not dream about executions. It seems to me, give free rein to VO commentators - fans of 1937, they would have set up Pol Pot politics in Russia.
And I wonder how the Communists, brought up on Soviet patriotic films and books, surrendered the country to the mercy of America, destroyed the army and industry. Why didn’t they solve the deficit problem (in my opinion, standing in line for 5 years for something abnormal), because of which the people so welcomed the "perestroika".

[avva2012]

Usually they plant it not for a sweet soul, but for the opa.
Something, you, my dear man, reminded me of the officer’s daughter, 2014. The same cliches, the same angry. Well, there is no such symptomatology in a person who loved his grandfather with a woman. And grandfathers are often even more loved than parents. Childhood, grandmother will always understand and forgive everything, and grandfather is fair and knows so many interesting things! And, most importantly, unlike the folder, he has time for you. So, daughter, something is not right. Well, nothing, they will understand and accept you here as a native. I beg you to their hut.

[0255]

Quote: avva2012

Something, you, my dear man, reminded me of the officer’s daughter, 2014. The same cliches, the same angry.

Yeah, only you have the ultimate truth, and whoever disagrees with you is the enemy, the liberal, the 5th column, the State Department agent

Quote: avva2012

Well, there is no such symptomatology in a person who loved his grandfather with a woman.

But there may be a different opinion than yours

Quote: avva2012

So, daughter, something is not right.

What do you call your "daughter"?

[avva2012]

Brrr I do not call, but I affirm that there is such a term, "daughter of an officer," did not know? Poking, somehow not quite polite, and an indicator that the opponent’s words hurt. Do not hold the blow? Well, the level is clear, that was interesting.

[Olgovich]

Quote: veteran66

that is, the slogan "Mow and score!" will be eternal?

There is another interpretation: "Do you want to reap, but you want to strike, you still get it, yes!"
And he disappeared forever ....

[veteran66]

Quote: Olgovich

And he disappeared forever ....

Right! Without having existed and 70 years old, sick ....

[0255]

Quote: veteran66

Quote: Olgovich

And he disappeared forever ....

Right! Without having existed and 70 years old, sick ....

Moreover, the Communists themselves destroyed the USSR, becoming the "liberals" and "democrats" in the nineties, merged the Chechen war of 1994-1996. And the people tired of the deficit welcomed them.

[baudolino]

Some kind of too Germanic eagle is attributed to the Chernihiv land. And the design too does not correspond to the XIII century.

[zivXP]

Why were the wings on the coins at the bottom of the eagle earlier? Where did this symbol come from?

[avva2012]

It is necessary to look, but somewhere I met such an idea that the wings of an eagle were lowered after a defeat in the Crimean War. Maybe a fake.

[Kostya Andreev]

by the location of the wings, you can find out who ruled, during the reign of each Russian Tsar, the wings are located in different ways.

[Boris55]

Quote: zivXP

Why were the wings on the coins at the bottom of the eagle earlier? Where did this symbol come from?

This is the coat of arms of the interim government of Kerensky.

[RUSS]

Quote: zivXP

Why were the wings on the coins at the bottom of the eagle earlier? Where did this symbol come from?

This is a symbol of the Bank of Russia.

[ruskih]

Three crowns over their heads, held together by a single ribbon, symbolize the unity of the three parts of Russia (Russian civilization) - Great Russia, Lesser Russia and White Russia.

Something is not very true.

[avva2012]

Take these oligarchs, but cancel! Hello!

[ruskih]

Take these oligarchs, but cancel!

Thanks to the author Samsonov for the articles after which such good thoughts come. And what interesting comments are always unexpected and positive.

[Gorinich]

Three crowns appeared under regent Sofya. Two young tsars Peter and Ivan, above them the regent Tsarina Sophia. All this is easy to track by Russian coins. Everything else is the usual speculation of modern "historians for money."

[Reptiloid]

The network has great stories that the appearance of the eagle was often different at different times. The fatness of the eagle, the position of the feathers, and other things have changed ..... Various parallels are drawn between the appearance of the eagle and the events .....

[Barcid]

Good article. Thank you

[avva2012]

I'm not strong in heraldry, but can someone explain why the saint does not have a halo?

[ruskih]

Hello! It seems to be taken from the coat of arms of Moscow, but there is no halo.

[avva2012]

Strange, but declare that on the coat of arms, George the Victorious. And he is a saint, so there must be a halo. Moreover, it does not matter whether it is written on the icon or not.

[ruskih]

Most likely it all comes down to the "letter" of the law:

On the eagle’s chest, in a red shield, is a silver rider in a blue cloak on a silver horse, striking with a silver spear a black overturned back and trampled by a dragon horse.

Description "silver horseman in a blue cloak" and not St. George,

[avva2012]

Sadly, some commentators draw a parallel from George to Perun. Moreover, I do not remember the halo of the horseman and on earlier images of the coat of arms.

[Gopnik]

The fact that it was George began to be considered only in the 18th century. Before that, it was just an image of the Grand Duke

[Operator]

The double-headed eagle is a tribal symbol (totem) of the Aryans who left in the 2nd millennium BC. from the East European Black Sea region to India, Persia and Asia Minor.

The totem of the Aryans remaining in Eastern Europe was a bear (the so-called animal style).

Totem of the Aryans, who left in the 1st millennium BC. to Western Europe, there was a horseman on horseback.

The double-headed eagle became the state symbol of the Hittite and Mittania Aryan states in Asia Minor and the religious symbol of assimilated Dravids in India. After the formation of the Eastern Roman Empire, the Asia Minor double-headed eagle became a symbol of Byzantium. In connection with the liquidation of the empire by the Seljuk Turks, the double-headed eagle was reproduced on the coat of arms of the Russian Empire as a symbol of dynastic continuity with the Roman Empire ("Moscow - the Third Rome") along the line of Sophia Paleolog.

In addition, the coat of arms of the Russian Empire reproduced the coat of arms of the Rurikovich “Horseman on a Horse”, the former totem of the Western European tribe Rus and then the emblem of the Moscow Grand Duchy (a horseman in the form of George the Victorious, defeating a snake).

From the moment Igor Rurikovich transferred the capital of the state, Ruska Zemlya from Novgorod to Kiev until the Mongol-Tatar defeat of Kiev, the Khazar tamga - the coat of arms of the Principality of Kiev - was temporarily used as the state emblem.

The double-headed eagle was also used in medieval Europe as an imitation of the Roman Empire, while none of the European states was the legal successor of Rome.

[petrol cutter]

I think it is necessary to leave alone the coat of arms and the flag. Everything looks quite worthy. And in general, it would be solid, endlessly redoing the symbolism in order to please the momentary wishes. There Ukrainians drew a roofing felts for themselves, roofing felts sokil who was about to kill himself on the ground and were happy what the light was on.

[Reptiloid]

Once on the site Kramola-info read the explanation of their coat of arms, its negative impact on the modern history of Ukrainians.

[murriou]

Briefly summarizing the spread of afftir I think on the desktop: two-headed birds, including eagles have been distributed around the world since time immemorial, therefore the presence of such a bird on the coat of arms of Russia speaks of its exceptional antiquity and exclusive rights to possess such symbolism (unlike all those who had this bird not so long ago, against the background of other things being discussed antiquity, we borrowed).

Well, the true Aryan origin of the Russians from here is obvious, ash-pentium

[Operator]

Quote: murriou

us

“God's chosen” - it’s not good to cling to the Slavs.

[murriou]

Quote: Operator

it is not good to stick to the Slavs.

In your opinion, are Russians no longer Slavs? Or what else did you try, ahem, to say?

[Operator]

You are Russian-speaking, not Russian.

[murriou]

Do you make diagnoses by avatars, or where else do you draw such conclusions? Are you really sure that you know my origin better than me? Well, then I can think of a lot about yours too ...

It seems that I have already explained to you that I am Russian, I just read a lot of books from childhood and therefore my face is so smart? Or another one, ahem, * individual *, for which if he is smart and educated, who is fluent in * literary * Russian, is he already obviously non-Russian?

[Operator]

A Russian person cannot, in your style, recount the history of the Russo-Japanese War.

A “smart and educated” person, by definition, should know that Russians (and all polls are descendants of the Aryans, who are the majority, and descendants of the Illyrians and Ugro-Finns, who are a minority) as a linguistic and cultural community, by definition, are Slavs, which include, for example, Czechs (most of whom are Celts), Croats (Illyrians) or Bulgarians (Hamites).

But here you are definitely not part of the Russian / Slavs, despite the knowledge of the Russian language.

[murriou]

Quote: Operator

A Russian person cannot, in your style, recount the history of the Russo-Japanese War.

In your opinion, the Russian people cannot understand the deceit of the tsarist propaganda, which 100+ years ago was completely exposed by real history, and is still obliged to repeat rotten lies even then?

You * original * views on the signs of a Russian person

You and similar quasi-patriots consider it a Russian person’s duty to repeat even the most ridiculous and idiotic lies, if this lie is trying to magnify the Russian empire and obkhaet the Soviet past of our people.

It turns out that you do not believe that our story without your lies looks worthy

Unlike you, I believe that a real Russian person should be smart and educated, and know his story as it is.
I believe that our history without lies is worthy of respect, and one of the components of this respect is its real knowledge.

Which of us is more a patriot?

[Operator]

Russian history as it is is the expansion of the borders of our people from Kaliningrad to Vladivostok.

And at the same time, the elimination of the Japanese presence on the lands of Manchuria, Korea, Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands. All the while, you are slurping around the events of 1904-1905, turning a blind eye to their completion in 1945.

Therefore, for you, there is no Russian people of the type of 862 A.D., just as there is no basis for this people - the Aryans of the sample of 20000 B.C.

If you are not a Russian-speaking "God-chosen" and not a representative of one of the national minorities of the Russian Federation, then you are a mankurt - "Ivan, who does not remember kinship."

[murriou]

Quote: Operator

Russian history as it is is the expansion of the borders of our people from Kaliningrad to Vladivostok.

Interesting story you have, I envy
But in reality, borders were constantly shifting back and forth.
Including during the REV, which I say “wrong”, in your opinion, because it’s true

Including, the USSR pushed the borders to Koenigsberg / Kaliningrad for the last time, and he drove the Japanese out of the Asian mainland - and it turned out the opposite for Nikolas, ahem, a martyr.

Quote: Operator

there is no basis for this people - the Aryans of the sample of 20000 BC

As for the true Aryans - it’s you not to me, it’s you who go to Goebbels to talk

Quote: Operator

you are mankurt - "Ivan, who does not remember kinship."

Alas, you do not remember our story just you.

[Operator]

How indicative you are from the Russian name of the former German city of Koenigsberg, annexed to Russia as a trophy.

It is only in your imagination that our country is called the USSR (cosmopolitan confederation, focused on the red intervention). In reality, our country since the formation of the state on its territory in 862 has always been and continues to be called the titular nation of Russia / Russia.

And in the historical perspective, the borders of Russia have shifted and will only shift in one direction, no matter how much you would like the opposite. The creation of the Russian nuclear missile potential was missed - now bite your elbows, Russophobes of all stripes.

[murriou]

Quote: Operator

How indicative you are from the Russian name of the former German city of Koenigsberg

Well, then the bakery-makers are contorted by the surname Kalinin assigned to several cities at once, or you are contorted by the name Koenigsberg, which I added for definiteness - did you mean Kaliningrad, Moscow Region, when speaking of expanding borders?
How do you understand here

Quote: Operator

annexed by Russians (Great Russians, Little Russians and Belorussians) to Russia

As well as Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Ukrainians and other Soviet people, because the tsarist army did not succeed, but only the Soviet army succeeded.

And they joined the former. East Prussia, now the Kaliningrad region, specifically to the USSR, in tsarist Russia, under Nikolashek-passion-terpil, the gut was thin.

Quote: Operator

In reality, our country since the formation of the state on its territory in 862 has always been and continues to be called the titular nation of Russia / Russia.

It’s always interesting for me to get acquainted with alternative stories of different chambers in which such creatively imagining patients live

Quote: Operator

in the historical perspective, the borders of Russia have shifted and will only shift in one direction

Yes? Surrender of half-Sakhalin to the Japanese in 1905 so deeply classified for you?
And the loss of part of the southern conquests under Peter1, during the war on at least 2 fronts?
And the fact that the above East Prussia was conquered under Elizabeth and lost under Peter No. 3?
And the loss of a huge part of our territory with the collapse of the USSR?

I sympathize with your crystal bakery level of education, for the umpteenth time

Quote: Operator

Missed the creation of the Russian nuclear missile potential

Soviet, because the Soviet Union created, if someone on the bakery defectiveness of education and intelligence is not in the know

[avva2012]

Quote: murriou I believe that a real Russian person should be smart and educated.

Well, you know, it’s not necessary, of course, to be educated (this is me finding fault ), but the fact that a real Russian person simply loves his homeland is not discussed. Moreover, the homeland is real, and not the country of fairies and elves, the kings of Arturo (sorry, Tsar-Russian ), populated by gibberborets and passion bearers.

[Dart2027]

Quote: murriou

In your opinion, the Russian people cannot understand the deceit of the tsarist propaganda, which 100+ years ago was completely exposed by real history

So why did the Soviet historian Krivosheev count twice as many dead Japanese?

[0255]

Quote: Operator

You are Russian-speaking, not Russian.

Did you see enough of the "Orthodox-patriotic" cartoon "Children Against Wizards"?

[Operator]

It was you who read about the Litvinians.

[Curious]

In fact, 92% of “world Jewry” is the descendants of the Afghan Hazara tribe, who adopted Judaism illegally in the 10th century, because they are Russians by blood of their mothers, not Jews, and did not have the right to accept Judaism according to the laws of Tanakh. So with a probability of 92% you argue with the Russian.

[Operator]

The Khazars are the northern Semites (haplogroup J2), immigrants from Central Asia (the region of present-day Uzbekistan and eastern Afghanistan), former Sogdians assimilated by the Turks during the conquest of Central Asia by the Huns.

After the invasion of Eastern Europe and the ousting of the Scythians and Sarmatians from the Black Sea, they founded the Khazar state. After the defeat of Khazaria by the Rusichs, led by Svyatoslav, the remains of the Khazars remained in the Crimea, Uzbekistan and as part of the Hazara tribe (northern Semites) in Afghanistan.

In Crimea, the descendants of the Khazars are represented by the Crimean Tatars (Muslims) and Karaites (Jewish sectarians). In the composition of Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians, the share of carriers of the haplogroup J2 is about 1 percent.

Representatives of the Judaic sect can be recognized as some ideological descendants of the Khazars as part of the Russian people, but they are not the only descendants of the Semites, since Jews were forbidden to live in Russia before Catherine II.

The world Jewish diaspora is a very real thing, over 90 percent of it consists of Jews proper (mestizos - equally southern Semites, northern Semites, Hamites and Indo-Europeans) and a small percentage of people from Ethiopia (southern Semites).
Moreover, the Indo-Europeans (Celts and Arians) as part of the Jews are represented by other subclades of the haplogroups R1b and R1a than the Europeans themselves. Those. Indo-Europeans became Jews after the invasion of the Celts (4 millennium BC) and the Aryans (2 millennium BC) in Asia Minor.

Therefore, my opponent can be a representative of one of three ethnic groups:
- a representative of one of the national minorities of the Russian Federation;
- Russian-speaking Jew;
- Russian - a member of the Judaism sect.

[murriou]

Quote: Operator

Therefore, my opponent can be a representative of one of three ethnic groups:
- representative of one of the national minorities of the Russian Federation

Well, in general, yes, in the current Russian Federation, the Russians are perhaps close to the state of the national minority.

[Curious]

Somehow in your theory some points are lost. Having ousted the Scythians from the Black Sea region, you forgot about them. But Scythians-Saki, Geek-Saki or Saki, Rus, Kas-Saki, Cossacks, lived from ocean to ocean from time immemorial. Hyksos - this is the Rus, Saki. Including in Lower Egypt, which the Negroid Jews from the black tribe of Judah, the Tribes of Set from semi-wild Upper Egypt captured. Another genetic crossroads.

[Operator]

The Khazars ousted the Scythians, Sarmatians and Saks - in the sense of assimilated. At the same time, the Scythians, Sarmatians, and Saks were one with the Khazars of a population belonging to the Northern Semites (J2), but, unlike the Khazars, the Scythians, Sarmatians, and Saks were Iranian-speaking (the legacy of the Rigved and Austrian Aryans who transited Central Asia on their way to India and Persia )

Hiskos are Asia Minor (mestizos are northern Semites with an admixture of Mittanian Aryans settled in Anatolia), also Iranian-speaking.

Southern Semites (Ethiopians) entered Africa from the Arabian Peninsula through the Strait of Mandeb.

And almost all of Africa is populated by the same population - hamites (haplogroup E) with varying degrees of skin pigmentation. The exceptions are the center of Africa (pygmies, haplogroup B), the Ethiopian highlands (Semites, haplogroup J1), the Horn of Africa (Somalis, haplogroup T), Namibia (Bushmen, haplogroup A) and Cameroon (Celts, haplogroup R1b up to 75%).

[0255]

Quote: Operator

It was you who read about the Litvinians.

I have never been a "lyzvinam-zmagar".

[murriou]

patrimonial symbols and signs of the superethnos of the Russians (like the solstice) will eventually be fully returned and will eventually take their rightful place in Russia-Russia. They kept the Rus-Slavs for many thousands of years.

Priests priests from the Russian Orthodox Church are unlikely to agree with the author.
They rely on the idea that the real history of Russia begins with Christianization, and before it there was darkness and horror. And hell!

[Boris55]

Here the Russian Orthodox Church competed specifically in the form of the Russian Orthodox Church.

The Primate of the Russian Orthodox Old Believers Church (ROCC), Metropolitan Korniliy, called the meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin a unique event, since such meetings have not been held since the split of the Russian Church in the 17th century, RIA Novosti was told in the ROCC secretariat.
"I think that our meeting today has truly historical significance - for the first time in 350 years, the head of state officially receives the head of the Orthodox Old Believer Church", - said Metropolitan Cornelius to the president at the meeting, RIA Novosti was quoted by Secretary of the Metropolitan Protodeacon Viktor Savelyev.
The head of the ROCOR also thanked Putin for supporting his initiative to celebrate in the 2020 year the 400 anniversary of the birth of Protopope Avvakum - one of the most prominent opponents of the church reform of Patriarch Nikon, revered by the Old Believers as a holy martyr and confessor.
The head of the department for interaction with religious organizations of the Kremlin, Yevgeny Eremin, in the summer of 2016, said that Putin supported the initiative of Metropolitan Cornelius on the celebration of the 400 anniversary of Archpriest Avvakum and instructed the government to choose forms of assistance "that would suit everyone in holding this celebration."

[RUSS]

Quote: Boris55

Here the Russian Orthodox Church competed specifically in the form of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Not a competitor, but a "sister church."

[Operator]

Old Believers are bent - the flock is dying. Before the revolution, they were sponsored by fellow capitalists, now there are none left.

[RUSS]

Quote: Operator

Old Believers are bent - the flock is dying.

Old Believers still have large families.

[Gorinich]

Purely Gandalf, now we are waiting for the hobbits ...

[Ima tsoh]

The politicized history of mankind has closed the true source of the appearance of this coat of arms. But you need to know him. Indeed, until now this politicization of history continues. But in fact, Aiki, Nairi, Hittites, Gaikos, Urartu and Armins ... and the correct name of this territory is not Anatolia, but the Armenian Highlands. And the people who still bear their heritage today are called Armenians. Today, some countries use this symbol in some form. But the most worthy country and its correspondence in symbol - of course, Russia is a totem.

[Bashibuzuk]

The taste and color .... everyone's brains are different.
For example, I really liked the emblem and flag of the Soviet Union - a red cloth with a sickle and a hammer in the corner.
Red is the color of joy and beauty. Blood there is secondary or even braided for a red word.
Simple, elegant, tasteful - and as simple as possible.
For example, how the most ancient patrimonial emblems are determined - precisely for minimalism, one color, two colors, divided in half vertically or horizontally.
And then vinaigrette begins - lilies in the mouth of a leopard. which the eagle holds in its claws, and all together in the stomach of an elephant who stands on a turtle. And all this is colorful. Masquerade, some kind.
The presence of a mass of coats of arms on the wings of a two-headed mutant emphasizes, of course, historicity.
But, I emphasize - I prefer simplicity and intelligibility. As a symbol of primordiality.
...
Maybe that’s why two flags - the Soviet Union and, strangely enough, the battle flag of Nazi Germany - the swastika on a red background, are falling into the soul.
Primary because.

[Gopnik]

What emblem inherited from our ancestors, let it be so. And, by the way, many of those commenting forget that the double-headed eagle was replaced not by the emblem of the USSR, but by the emblem of the RSFSR, which the majority will not even remember what it looked like.

[Operator]

Quote: murriou

As well as Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Ukrainians and other Soviet people, because the tsarist army did not succeed, but only the Soviet army succeeded. And they joined the former. East Prussia, now the Kaliningrad region, specifically to the USSR, in tsarist Russia, under Nikolashek-passion-terpil, the gut was thin.

Persistent in Russophobia, you lost your brain - you confuse the SA with the Red Army, are not able to compare the size of territorial acquisitions of Russia under tsars / emperors and communists / cosmopolitans

And of course, how do you Russophobe know that the inhabitants of Central Asia and Kazakhstan made up no more than 30 percent of the Red Army, otherwise they would surrender in unison to the enemy in the very first battle.

[murriou]

Quote: Operator

residents of Central Asia and Kazakhstan made up no more than 30 percent in parts of the Red Army

And what, 30% is not enough?
Well, yes, the bakers have their own, non-linear arithmetic

[Operator]

So not in all parts of the Red Army, but only in those that were formed in the Central Asian military district. So they were diluted with Russians up to 70 percent.

And what are you so harnessing for the Turkic-speaking people - you, by the hour, will not be from the Karaites?

[murriou]

Quote: Operator

And what are you so harnessing for the Turkic-speaking people - you, by the hour, will not be from the Karaites?

This is where you have not just written me down - to Ethiopians, perhaps, in the company of Pushkin?

I don’t understand to you, the sick person, that I am “harnessing” for truth and against lies, without which life is not sweet for you

[Gopnik]

Quote: murriou

I don’t understand to you, the sick person, that I’m harnessing myself for the truth and against lies

[RUSS]

Quote: murriou

Well, yes, the bakers have their own,

Just now I made coffee and I’ll crunch with a bun, and you chant boiling water with camp crackers

[Curious]

Again you have a discrepancy. Kazakhs are also descendants of the Aryans. Like the ancient arias, who had a white horse sacrifice (ashwamedha), the Kazakhs sacrificed a white stallion (boz aygyr) to the spirits of their ancestors (aruahs). You are clearly not familiar with the monograph “A Brief History of Kazakh Civilization”. Well, it turns out that some descendants of the Aryans are worthy, while others = immediately captured?

[Operator]

Kazakhs have a dominant haplogroup C2 - i.e. they are direct descendants of the Mongols, the second most important haplogroups are Caucasian G and Chinese O. The carriers of the Aryan R1a and Celtic R1b are represented at the level of 5-9 percent.

I cited a historical fact - for combat stability, the units of the Red Army formed in SredazVO were mandatory equipped with at least 70% of Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians.

[Curious]

But the Kazakhs adhere to a different point of view. And they also appeal to genetics.
Interview with an employee of Kazan Federal University Rafis Zakirov.
"The number of Turkic peoples is now about 250 million. They are divided into about 40 nationalities. Their appearance, on average, is 50% Caucasian, 30% mixed, and only 20% Mongoloid. Studies conducted after 2010-2011 , including studies by European scientists, give other results. Recently, genetic research has been actively used in history, due to which a kinship is established. So, according to the latest conclusions, Scythians are still Türks.

The Scythian people consisted of many tribes, and each had its own cultural differences. Scythian culture has made a huge contribution to world civilization. She passed on to the Huns, and then to the Turks. And today we adhere to this culture in many respects. There is enough evidence for this now. On their basis, it can be argued that the Scythians (Saks) are our ancestors. "

[Gopnik]

Nonsense. How can genetics determine which language family a people belong to ??? This is the business of linguists. And if the Scythians are Türks, this does not mean that the Kazakhs are descendants of the Aryans, it means that the Scythians are not Aryans. But let the "Kazakh scientists" write what they want. Iranian-speaking and Caucasoid Scythians fact established and generally accepted.

[Operator]

Unlike an employee of Kazan University, I’m not talking about phenotypes (appearance) of Turks, but about their haplotypes (genealogy of origin recorded in the male Y-chromosomes).

Türks are peoples of different origins, but speaking different dialects of the Mongolian language: Turks and Uzbeks (Semites), Kazakhs and Kalmyks (Mongols), Bashkirs (Celts), Kyrgyz and Tatars (Arians), Tuvans and Yakuts (Ugro-Finns), etc. .d. All of them have a share of the Mongolian haplogroup C2.

The Scythians, Sarmatians, and Saks, being of Northern Semitic origin (J2), were Iranian-speaking (spoke dialects of the Aryan language), i.e. by definition they were not Türks. All of them had a share of the Aryan haplogroup R1a.

PS The Huns as a union of tribes were definitely Türks. The Huns as the unifier of this tribal union were direct relatives of the North American Indians - carriers of the haplogroup Q. The descendants of the Huns are the Turkomans of Karakalpakstan.

[murriou]

veteran66, and why not civilian? They defeated her under the red banner, because there were people behind him.

[avva2012]

veteran66,
You just Wang! Yes, and in civilian too. Uprising in the 20th year of the Reds in Irkutsk. The regiment in which the grandfather served moved to their side. Further to Vladivostok, Mongolia, a communist since 1929. He worked honestly all his life. Worthy life.

[veteran66]

Quote: avva2012

Yes, and in civilian too.

my grandfather served in Chapaevskaya, then in CHON, and died on the Second World War, on the 6th day after the call ... we had such a guide ...

[murriou]

Your grandfather would know how the granddaughter betrays his work.

[veteran66]

Quote: murriou

Your grandfather would know how the granddaughter betrays his work.

justify

[avva2012]

Fighting grandfather, that was! In CHON they didn’t take anyone. Killed on the 6th day of the war after the call, how is it? Hero of Civil, based on the CHON, ideological and not in the NKVD? Was called up, died on the sixth day, the militia? With all this, besides, what is the fault of the leadership? I would understand, would be shot. Anyway. Are you how you came to such a life under the grandfather-hero of the Civil War?

[veteran66]

Quote: avva2012

Was called up, died on the sixth day, the militia? With all this, besides, what is the fault of the leadership?

arises from your own questions. Drafted into the personnel army, and on the sixth - the tenth day (the date is not exactly set) is already a funeral. So, without preparation, they threw people like firewood into the furnace, is this, damn it, a wise guide?

Quote: avva2012

ideological and not in the NKVD?

But what did all the ideological people serve in the NKVD, and then who did the Soviet Union populate without ideas or what?

Quote: avva2012

how did you get to such a life under the grandfather-hero of the Civil War?

to what? And then that stupid expression

Quote: avva2012

civil war hero

who is this? who killed more than their Slav brothers, God forbid such a relative-hero! He was an ordinary Red Army soldier, I hope. And if he had survived to this day, he would hardly have been proud of his CHONovsky past.

[avva2012]

An ordinary fighter in CHON? So, CHON was no longer for unusual fighters. What did they do remember? Or did not read. So your grandfather was ideological. Nails would be made of these people ... Sorry, but such people are not the only ones in power that are not scattered. Since he was not in the army, then either Organ or party activist. And, the expression is not stupid. We are the continuation of our ancestors. To refuse them, it’s somehow ... I would understand if the ancestor was a policeman or some kind of Bandera, but I don’t know, this is strange. Blood, because dear.

[veteran66]

Quote: avva2012

So your grandfather was ideological.

according to father’s recollections, yes.

Quote: avva2012

Since he was not in the army, then either Organ or party activist.

In December 1921, 39 people were registered in the CHON. personnel and 673 people. variable composition. In connection with the improvement of the internal and international situation of the USSR and the strengthening of the Red Army (military reform) in 323-372, according to the decision of the Central Committee of the RCP (b), the CHON were disbanded

and now they are all in party activists and bodies, and on the citizen of these parasites bred without them, so where to get to all the places?

Quote: avva2012

To abandon them, it’s somehow ...

and who said that I refuse my grandfather?

[avva2012]

and who said that I refuse my grandfather?

"who killed more Slavs than his brothers, God forbid such a relative-hero!"
Apparently me.

[murriou]

It’s still a secret for the bakers that there were negligible little whites, the people didn’t follow them, which decided the fate of our Civil War.

But for them, 90+% of our then (and current) population are not humans, the lowest grade!
They are worried only by the fate of the strength of 3% of “white bone” and “blue blood”, parasites, worms in the body of the people, from which the Bolsheviks saved our country with a successful glistomor.

[veteran66]

Quote: RUSS

How nice it is to “crunch” sandwiches with a French roll and caviar

Yes, "comrades" do not understand, they want to plant all the people on bread and water again, the whole world is struggling with poverty, but they want to remove all the rich.

beggars pray, pray on
that their poverty is guaranteed

Butusov’s song is about that state.

[0255]

Quote: murriou

It’s still a secret for the bakers that there were negligible little whites, the people didn’t follow them, which decided the fate of our Civil War.

And who then resisted the Bolsheviks until 1921? And it’s wrong to divide into “red” and “white” - in that war they fought for the tsar, some for the Mensheviks, some for the Socialist-Revolutionaries, some for coming to power themselves. And everyone was “good”; terror was carried out by all parties. Time was, well, nafig. We must think that this does not happen again, and not argue who is right and who is wrong - all the same, the past cannot be changed, the dead not returned, and long ago it was, try to figure out what would happen to Russia if the Bolsheviks won.

[Operator]

murriou - not Russian, he does not understand.

[murriou]

Quote: Operator

murriou - not Russian, he does not understand.

If I tried to fantasize about your origin in your delirium, I would decide that you are not a humanoid at all, but have come to Earth so recently that I am completely unaware of our real history

[vasilev]

The answer is simple - if the victory was not Bolsheviks, Russia would be the property of the Entente.

[Gopnik]

yes, take more - the property of Martians

[murriou]

Quote: 0255

And who then resisted the Bolsheviks until 1921?

Captain Evidence is authorized to answer: renegades and losers.
The renegades - in terms of number and composition, this audience had a very weak relation to the Russian people, and they always despised their people.
Losers - according to an obvious and well-known result, despite the support of the most powerful powers of their time.
More questions?

[Dart2027]

Quote: murriou

More questions?

Why could they not cope with them for 4 years?

[Pissarro]

And in Syria in five years have been able to cope with a bunch of disparate gangs of foreign content in the conditions of the destruction of the state? Time is needed to restore order

[Dart2027]

Quote: Pissarro

in five years they were able to cope with a bunch of scattered gangs in foreign content

This is not a gang, but an army fueled from the United States.

[murriou]

Pts even managed quite well, despite several white offensives with the support of the interventionists - Yudenich, Denikin, Kaledin, Kolchak, Wrangel, and others like that ... And all of them in turn came convincing kayuk. And then they poisoned the Japanese and the Basmachi for a snack.

[Dart2027]

Quote: murriou

Och even coped well

They did it. just for the whole 4 years have been transported with "renegades and losers"?

Stalin was very affected by the scene of the psychic attack, where the Kappel officers, taut and neat, with clear lines, went into machine-gun fire. Smoking calmly, waving stacks. Fall, die, but stubbornly rush forward. There was a small episode where the killed and wounded Kappel people not just fall, but somersault with a running start, jump in the air with their feet. An ordinary comic shot designed to amuse the mass audience.
“A good film,” Joseph Vissarionovich said then. - Useful movie. And the place where the officers tumble over their heads is better to remove.
“This is ridiculous, Comrade Stalin,” they tried to object to him.
- Therefore, remove it. Courage cannot be ridiculed; it cannot be denigrated by mockery. In no case.
“But these are the White Guards!”
Joseph Vissarionovich gave the speaker a leaden look, said with restraint:
- Let our red officers, when necessary, decisively go to the bullets, go to death, knowing that their courage will be appreciated by both their own and the enemy. Do you understand this?

(Uspensky V. D., "Privy Advisor to the Leader")

[avva2012]

Joseph Vissarionovich gave the speaker a lead look

I read it, it became bad for myself as I imagined In general, the episode is real, but the Kappel people have nothing to do with it.
The attitude of Soviet cinema towards the enemies of Soviet power was almost always respectful, in contrast to the low-grade anti-Soviet Hollywood, for example. A white officer, with rare exceptions, is really a bastard (for drama), a suffering person, loving his country.
It’s a pity that this was only shown, one-sided. "Neither the villages you burned, nor the peasants who whipped and whipped you, nor the Cossacks with the looted convoy, and all the other charms of these,"Kappelian officers, taut and neat, with clear lines going to machine gun fire. Smoking calmly, waving stacks. Fall, die, but stubbornly rush forward". Already, tears came running "By evening, the city was liberated - all the surviving quarrers fled, hiding around the city. Searches, arrests and executions began, they took all the suspects, adhering to the rule: it was better to destroy ten innocents than to release one guilty; at the same time, the publisher of the Menshevik newspaper Volna was drowned ", Writing all the time against volunteers. This story continued for three days and at the same time the last exits of the Adzhimushkay quarry exploded. During this time, up to 3000 people, mostly Jews, were killed in Kerch. Englishwho were in Kerch, ran around the city with terribly happy faces all day, photographing the hanged and executed by photographic apparatus. "Shidlovsky S. N. "Notes of a white officer." And do not dare to recall this! Well, they are in their own right! "Field, Russian poooool ..." Humane people were communists, though.

[veteran66]

Quote: avva2012

Shidlovsky S. N. "Notes of a white officer."

Well, yes, the story is written by the winner, who is Shidlovsky, no information on the internet.

Civil wars are not an invention of the 21st century and are always accompanied by disgusting atrocities on both sides. There are no more brutal wars than civil wars.

all were good.

The civil war in Russia did not differ from the rest in the nature and dynamics of atrocities.
As in other cases, the atrocities of the winners were many times greater than the atrocities of the opposing side. During the civil war, atrocities were committed in zones of possession. Kolchakovo zone, Denikin zone, Soviet zone. Much has been written about this civil war with all the details. The massacre itself began when the Soviets came up with and implemented a hostage system. The entire non-proletarian population was taken in pencil, and executions and repressions were carried out in batches and systematically, achieving record results.

Quote: avva2012

Humane people were communists, though.

straight as much as a tear pierced from tenderness

[avva2012]

Who is Szydlowski? Not enough data? Well I do not know. Search and find. By the name of the book, let's say. And not only he, being in emigration, left his memoirs. Everywhere the same thing, executions, gallows, robberies. I specifically did not cite the example of "Running", Bulgakov, for example Khludov. His prototype, General Slashchev, is also known. What he was actively engaged in is also known reliably.
The problem with anti-communists is that they have no evidence base. They give an example of Melgunov, but he was not a witness, what he collected, all from other people's words. The second, a witness, Solzhenitsyn. Those atrocities that are officially recorded are just made by the Bolsheviks. Those guilty or repressed or found themselves in a psychiatric hospital for the corresponding disease. So, there is nothing to blame on the anti-Soviet, well, at worst, to blurt out about Tukhachevsky’s gases.

[avva2012]

Especially for you.

[veteran66]

Quote: avva2012

The problem with anti-communists is that they have no evidence base.

and where does it come from, in civilian, who won? The evidence base of the Reds is also rather weak and rests on such Shidlovskys. The picture that you brought below, niachom. Before writing the previous post, I spent quite a lot of time searching for this "Szydlowski" and besides this picture, nothing. Such examples of atrocities of the red from Western literature, I can throw mountains.

[Gopnik]

Of course, the peasants of Western Siberia and the Tambov region, the townspeople of Yaroslavl, the sailors of Kronstadt and the hard workers of the Izhevsk-Votkinsk factories have little relation to the Russian people. The Russian people are related to the Latvian arrows, Chinese and Hungarian "internationalists", Bronstein, Sverdlov, Volodarsky, Uriytsky, etc., etc.

[murriou]

The existence of Ivanovo weavers at Frunze, the red sailors of the Black Sea and Baltic Fleet, the Chapev division, in which the grandfather of the "veteran", who now obeduvs grandfather’s affairs, the Budenny’s army and the rest of the Red Army, by already more than 1920 million in number, were kept secret for the bakers.
..
Well, of course, in your opinion it was all disguised Chinese and Latvians, yes.
And oh yes, there are also Jews, on whom the bakers, like other fascists, have a special fad

[Gopnik]

yes you, dey-but, it seems not Russian, since the meaning of phrases in Russian do not understand. It is you who deny the Russianness of millions of ordinary citizens, peasants, hard workers who dared to speak out against the commissars. The fact that no one denies the Russian people fought in the Red Army, all the more so since I tell you once you are not aware, they mobilized (including officers), and were shot for desertion. Many, undoubtedly, were sincerely for the Reds, believing in the sweet honey that the commissars poured abundantly into their ears, about the happiness of the working people and other tales. Many later, back in 1937-38, wrote "Comrade Stalin, a terrible mistake occurred, I am not an enemy."

[murriou]

Quote: Gopnik

million ordinary citizens, peasants, hard workers who dared to speak out against the commissars.

Even millions?

Do you too glorify the power of the Reds that all of your imaginary millions have torn to pieces?

And how then does it turn out that the strength of Denikin’s army, even with all the rear structures and semi-regular gangs that are essentially not subordinate to anyone, is estimated to be from 100 to 270 thousand the most optimistic for white counts, similarly from Kolchak from 80 to 500 thousand, and this the biggest numbers called for white armies? Where are they, your millions of simple hard workers who have unsuccessfully fought with the red mega-Rambo?

[veteran66]

Quote: murriou

Quote: Gopnik
million ordinary citizens, peasants, hard workers who dared to speak out against the commissars.
Even millions?

These are not only those who fought in the army of the whites, but also those who supported the anti-reds movement during the civilian period, took part in suppressed riots, who were subsequently repressed by the Soviet of Deputies in the 20s and 50s. You need to think a little

Quote: murriou

Where are they, your millions of simple hard workers who have unsuccessfully fought with the red mega-Rambo?

[Gopnik]

no, well, I understand that "Chukchi is not a reader" and you have to chew everything. If we take all the opponents of the Bolsheviks, who at least once participated in anti-Bolshevik demonstrations, not only in the regular Russian army, but also in numerous uprisings, a couple of millions will be easily typed

[murriou]

I can guess your fantasies in advance, any bite to the line, if only against the Bolsheviks and the USSR, but what about justifications and confirmations?

[veteran66]

Quote: murriou

from which the Bolsheviks saved our country with a successful wormworm.

and they themselves took the place of these

Quote: murriou

parasites, worms in the body of the people

moreover, even more insatiable to blood.

[veteran66]

Quote: Boris55

Art critic, then you say?

Well, yes, I forgot what site I’m on, this is a “rotten intelligentsia” .... it’s true, he is from the peasants, he served in the army for three years, he received a disability there ..... but this is nothing compared to world revolution, right?

[vasilev]

I like the red flag and it suits because the military banners in the Moscow Principality were in the form of a red banner with the face of the Almighty, and the modern tricolor was the flag of Russian merchant ships, when it became state, there was not a single victory under it and Vlasov fought under it, although it is suitable for the current oligarchy. And in order for the coat of arms to reflect Soviet history, it is necessary to surround the eagle with a wheat wreath, as suggested by the Surgeon Zaldostanov.

[brn521]

I somehow do not particularly like all these two-headed eagles, and other animals as a symbol of the state. Some totemism, and the appearance of these little animals is unhealthy, aggressively tortured or something. I understand if these are some private symbols, for example, coats of arms of clans or of some small territorial formations since the time of the feuds and the nosed savages. But the state is not the same level. The general impression of some kind of frivolity. As if the cannery had grown to the production of aircraft carriers, but its name and style remained a legacy from the cannery.

[0255]

Ingvar 72,
I wrote why I am dissatisfied with life in Belarus. We will discuss it somehow in an article about RB.

[veteran66]

Quote: Ingvar 72

Gus art critic was, one hundred pounds!

in your Russian only know how to thump and bulls from the sidewalks to raise? And he is Russian, from peasants.

[veteran66]

Quote: Boris55

Under Stalin, artels were not bad at work and earned. But starting with Khrushchev -

and what are the differences? That Stalin, that Khrushchev with Lenin are all commies. Collectivization was not the "best friend of athletes" organized? It was precisely there that such a slogan was present under Lenin’s military communism. When it’s worse, even the peasants were given passports and a pension.

[Pissarro]

Pol Pot and Mao are also communists as well as Trotsky.
And Franco, Salazar and Mussolini are fascists.
There are still differences, however much you would like to unite all together

[Candibober]

avva 2012. nails would be made of these people.
Jung for unusual people. Well, well.
But in neighboring Khakassia, which borders on the Irkutsk region, there was also a detachment of the CHON, which was commanded by A. Golikov.
And so I was commanded that the Khakasses would spit in your face at the mention of CHON. Go to them, try. And I will help you.
Praise such
"chonovtsev" to anything
good will not lead

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Candibober

But in neighboring Khakassia, which borders on the Irkutsk region, there was also a detachment of the CHON, which was commanded by A. Golikov.
And so I was commanded that the Khakasses would spit in your face at the mention of CHON. Go to them, try. And I will help you.

Another myth.
At the beginning of the 20s, a detachment under the command of the local Cossack Ivan Solovyov was bandit in Khakassia. The detachment was small, but was elusive. The provincial leadership asked Moscow for the help of 1500 fighters, but they sent one Golikov (future Gaidar) to Khakassia, "as he knows how to negotiate with the local population," which he proved in the suppression of the uprising in the Tambov region.

The Siberian authorities, offended by the fact that the capital sent the boy, appointed Gaidar the head of the combat region, where there was no telephone connection with Moscow, nor a telegraph. Three courier couriers were assigned to him, who brought orders from their superiors and took away reports.

Golikov’s direct boss, Kudryavtsev, regularly wrote denunciations of him to the provincial GPU. (Denunciations preserved). When there were too many of them, Golikov was summoned to Krasnoyarsk, and there were four departments at once: the CHON, the GPU, the 5th Army prosecutor's office and the control commission under the Yenisei Provincial Party Committee brought criminal charges against him. Each instance conducted an independent investigation.

Gaidar was accused of “not paying for six sheep taken from the inhabitants?”, And was also suspected of ... collaboration with Solovyov. In fact, Golikov in Khakassia ordered the fate of only three captured Solovyov’s scouts. They agreed to cooperate with the commander, but in a combat situation they deceived him.

As a result, Gaidar was acquitted by all four instances, proving his complete innocence - and this is 18 years old, without lawyers!

Accusations of "genocide of the Khakass people" arose only 70 years later, they were launched from the current "chroniclers".

[avva2012]

Quote: Candibober Chun for unusual people. Well, well.

"An ordinary fighter in CHON? So, CHON, was no longer for unusual fighters." It is written by me. Your interpretation is not about that.

And so I was commanded that the Khakasses would spit in your face at the mention of CHON. Go to them, try. And I will help you.

Well, you don’t need to speak for the Khakasses, you need to answer for your words. Poking, also not cultural, do not care, especially. You need to write about the case and it is advisable to use the head, and not other parts of the body, in this process. The natural discharge of your body, leave it either with you or celebrate it in an appropriate place. Believe me, this site is nevertheless intended for other purposes.

[captain]

God save us from revolutions, especially bloody ones.

[ovod84]

I like the bear than the mutant eagle. This is purely my opinion

[Igor V]

And the eagle not so long ago held clubs in its paws.

[Alexander Greene]

Each time has its own symbols.

The double-headed eagle reflected the political structure of the Russian Empire and was executed in accordance with the canons of heraldry.

The state emblem of the Soviet Union was also drawn up according to all the canons of heraldry. It is laconic, strict, solemn and symbolic. The emblem of the Soviet Union symbolized the union of workers and peasants, the voluntary union of all equal union republics of the world in one union state, the equality of absolutely all nations, and he also expressed the idea of ​​solidarity of the peoples of the Soviet Union with working citizens of all countries of the world.
Spikes are a symbol of the vitality and prosperity of the entire state; the sun is the light of communist ideas and a bright future.
A star on the coat of arms is a symbol of victories, strength and power of the entire Soviet people.

But the current coat of arms of Russia is not friendly with heraldry ... does not reflect modernity ...

[F.NN]

Quote: Alexander Green

The state emblem of the Soviet Union was also drawn up according to all the canons of heraldry

Damn, again this "witness" is the planner.

Quote: Alexander Green

Spikes are a symbol of the vitality and prosperity of the whole state.

Apparently therefore, this state went bankrupt and crumbled. Leaving its inhabitants naked, barefoot and half-starved.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: F.NN

Apparently therefore, this state went bankrupt and crumbled. Leaving its inhabitants naked, barefoot and half-starved.

From the defender of crooks, thieves, lovers to live at someone else's expense, another comment was not expected.

[F.NN]

Quote: Alexander Green

thieves, lovers to live at someone else's expense

Are you talking about Bolshevik bonzes?

[Alexander Greene]

About how ordinary soldiers belonged to the emblem of tsarist Russia, the old soldier's joke of those times testifies. It was told to me by my grandfather, a private soldier, a participant in the First World War, who fed lice in the trenches for the Dardanelles and Bosporus straits for three years.

At a lesson in literature, the ensign tells what the tsar’s surname and the emblem of tsarist Russia are, at the end of the lesson he decided to find out how the soldiers had learned the material, and asked the question: “Private Petrov! What is a double-headed eagle ?! ” The soldier hesitated, and then struck out: “Urr-rod! Wander around! "

[veteran66]

Quote: Alexander Green

About how ordinary soldiers belonged to the emblem of tsarist Russia, the old soldier's joke of those times testifies.

there are countless jokes about how the Soviet people treated the USSR (coat of arms, leaders, system, functionaries), and what, let’s we conclude that all Soviet people did not like the USSR?

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: veteran66

Quote: Alexander Green
About how ordinary soldiers belonged to the emblem of tsarist Russia, the old soldier's joke of those times testifies.

there are countless jokes about how the Soviet people treated the USSR (coat of arms, leaders, system, functionaries), and what, let’s we conclude that all Soviet people did not like the USSR?

“There are two big differences,” as they say in Odessa. The first one is that in Soviet times, especially political jokes were thrown to us from abroad, mainly from the CIA, whole institutions worked for it, and in the tsarist time the CIA was not yet.

[Gopnik]

yes, yes, the whole CIA institutes were sitting and writing jokes about Lenin and Brezhnev. Do you seriously believe in this bullshit?

[veteran66]

Quote: Alexander Green

we were especially thrown jokes from abroad, mainly from the CIA,

well how did you hear

[Gopnik]

Did he tell you this already in the USSR? And in World War II, your grandfather also fought for the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus, if, of course, he participated in it?
In general, of course, it’s fun to learn history from stories and jokes invented retroactively.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Gopnik

Did he tell you this already in the USSR? And in World War II, your grandfather also fought for the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus, if, of course, he participated in it?
In general, of course, it’s fun to learn history from stories and jokes invented retroactively.

Do not confuse the Great Patriotic War with the German, Different goals, different tasks, different authorities.
And how my ancestors lived before the revolution, I know firsthand, and I lived most of the Soviet time myself, so no one hangs noodles on my ears. I write what I saw myself and what my parents and parents of my parents told me.

[Gopnik]

Why not? Both here and there Germany declared war on Russia, and here and there honest soldiers fought for their homeland, and there were skins there and there - some arrived in a sealed carriage, the other, a former member of the CPSU and a participant in the civil war on the Reds side, led the ROA.
Yes, yes, in Soviet times they liked to tell, in the spirit of the TV, how they fought against tsarism with jokes and helped Lenin to drag logs on a clean-up day. Now, too, wherever you spit - through one dissidents and fighters with the regime were in the kitchen.

[murriou]

Quote: Gopnik

And there and there Germany declared war on Russia

Only in WWII did Germany send the main blow to the west and held the main and best forces there - and Russia worked as the Entente’s six, trying to draw more enemy forces on itself, on the auxiliary front.

What did the tsarist army achieve? At the same time, she managed to ruin her citizens on the auxiliary front almost as much, with an incomparably smaller scale of hostilities, as perished on the main front of the allies combined, or perished enemies on two fronts combined.

But for you, the baker, the difference is invisible

[veteran66]

Quote: murriou

What did the tsarist army achieve?

she ensured that the Germans did not stand near Moscow and did not kill 28 million people and brought so much grief and devastation to the territory of Russia, but you Russophobes cannot understand this, you have your own alternative story. Go bite your crackers

[Gopnik]

comrade, what are you talking about and why ???? Once again, Germany and Austria-Hungary declared war on Russia’s WWII, and Turkey attacked Russia. In this regard, Russian soldiers and officers defended their homeland. Unlike some figures who sit out in Switzerland, and then arrived in a sealed carriage.

[murriou]

Quote: Gopnik

Germany and Austria-Hungary declared war on Russia’s WWII, and Turkey attacked Russia.

But at the same time, Russia declared war on Turkey, and not vice versa, and Russia attacked Germany and Austria-Hungary first, and not vice versa.
You still have not decided on Rabinovich’s difficult choice in the bathhouse - are you trying to combine a cross with circumcision, and do you interfere with diplomatic rituals with real military operations?

Quote: Gopnik

In this regard, Russian soldiers and officers defended their homeland.

At the same time, smart people even then could not understand with what fright the Russian attack on the Germans, in the interests of the British and French, they were trying to declare World War II

[Gopnik]

Lord, what a pity you are in your ignorance, let's say, even sad.
Well, let’s do the educational program for you.
Germany and Austria-Hungary declared war on Russia BEFORE Russia began military operations against them. Moreover, it was Germany and Austria-Hungary that were the first to cross the border. In the case of Germany, google “Kalisz pogrom”, in the case of AB, I will even quote, in my nobility, “Austria-Hungary declared war on Russia on July 24 in the old style (August 6 in the new style). On this day at about 6 o’clock In the morning, 12 hours before the declaration of war, the Austrians at Volochisk opened fire on Russian sentries and blew up their railroad bridge over the border river Zbruch, but they did not cross the border, and gunfire started in Tarnorud and Satanov.
On August 4, according to the old style (August 17 according to the new style), the 5th Austro-Hungarian Cavalry Division crossed Satanov through Zbruch. However, on the same day she was stopped by Russian infantry and cavalry (2nd Combined Cossack Division, 14th Infantry Regiment of the 4th Infantry Brigade and Zamotsky 60th Infantry Regiment) and thrown back behind Zbruch. On the same day, the 1st Austro-Hungarian Cavalry Division, which crossed the Zbruch river against Kamenetz-Podolsk, was at first somewhat successful. Having pushed aside the Russian border guard, it fired and occupied the city. The next day, the advanced units of the enemy cavalry, advancing along the Kamenetz-Podolsk-Dunaevtsy highway, occupied the town of Makov (in the middle of the path between these two points). But the further advance of the Austrians to the Dunaevtsy was stopped by the 1st Kuban preferential Cossack division. The Austrian cavalry was forced to leave Kamenetz-Podolsk on August 6 (19), not having time to collect indemnities imposed on the city. "And subsequently, battles in the northern section of the Battle of Galicia (Krasnik, Tomashevo) took place on Russian territory, as the Austrians crossed the border and briskly began to advance.
The Turks attacked the Republic of Ingushetia and crossed the border without declaring war. RI is not the case.
T.ch. cross and cowards decide for yourself.

[murriou]

Quote: Gopnik

Let’s do an educational program for you.

Oh, who would say that!

You, trying to impersonate an expert on a thematic military forum, do not know how much time it takes to prepare an attack of such proportions as the beginning of the East Prussian operation and the Russian invasion of Galicia?

In reality, these offensives were agreed with the Allies on the Entente, as the scenario of the start of the WWII, long before the Sarajevo incident, and preparations for them too had begun very ahead of time - otherwise Russia would not have been able to launch them at the very beginning of the war.

Thus, all the diplomatic movements that you are trying to attach such importance to here did not have real meaning, and the same border ritual provocations by small forces from the German side, too.

But in fact, the invasion by LARGE forces on the territory of the enemy with LONG-TERM plans of STRATEGIC significance on the Eastern Front of the First World War II was precisely Russia.

The opening of the second front from the very beginning of the war was undesirable to the Germans: they tried to break France with the first powerful blow, and large-scale intervention in the Russian war was the last thing they wanted to get their heads on.

Quote: Gopnik

The Turks attacked the Republic of Ingushetia and crossed the border without declaring war.

Yes. But you, and not me, attach so much importance to the formal declaration of war? And Russia was the first to do it.

So, if you are trying to pass off the same ritual gesture of Germany as its aggression, then Russia is an aggressor against Turkey.

And if we take a more reasonable criterion, i.e. large-scale (!) and pre-prepared invasion of the regular army, then Russia in the WWII is clearly an aggressor against Germany and Austria-Hungary.

[Gopnik]

Hmm, but you really are a limitation than you seem ...

Quote: murriou

I don’t know how much time it takes to prepare an attack of such proportions as the beginning of the East Prussian operation and the Russian invasion of Galicia?

Yes, it’s you who don’t know how I will see that the plans for conducting military operations were prepared in advance for all participants in the war, and the parties acted on the basis of them. The parties have been preparing for these operations for decades. And even, just the invasion of V. Prussia was largely an improvisation

Quote: murriou

But in fact, the invasion by LARGE forces on the territory of the enemy with LONG-TERM plans of STRATEGIC significance on the Eastern Front of the First World War II was precisely Russia.
The opening of the second front from the very beginning of the war was undesirable to the Germans: they tried to break France with the first powerful blow, and large-scale intervention in the Russian war was the last thing they wanted to get their heads on.

III Do you want to prove something ?? The Germans declared war on Russia, invaded its territory by those forces that were available with limited goals, and, of course, it would be in their interests that Russia would hide in a corner and wait while they deal with the allies. Those. do you seriously believe that Russia needed to play along with the Germans and sit and wait for a full-scale invasion of its territory ??? There were no such fools as in 1941.

Quote: murriou

So, if you are trying to pass off the same ritual gesture of Germany as its aggression, then Russia is an aggressor against Turkey.

Once again, spell it. Germany declared war on Russia, this is aggression. Further, she could do nothing at all on the eastern front; she had already committed aggression by declaring war herself. But at the same time, she also invaded the territory by looting Kalish.
Turkey committed aggression against Russia by shelling its cities and invading its territory.
Those. once again, for the gifted, Germany and Austria-Hungary and Turkey were the first to commit acts of aggression against Russia. Reached you ??

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Gopnik

There were no such fools as in 1941.

Dear, in 1941 there were no fools either. A directive was sent to the Soviet troops on June 18 with an order to put the troops and fleets on alert, and on June 21 they sent another directive. All border detachments, border districts and fleets located in this theater of action have complied with this directive. Only the Special Belorussian District failed to fulfill, under the command of General Pavlov. But you can’t call him a fool either. Here either treason or negligence on the verge of treason.

[Operator]

Quote: Gopnik

The Turks attacked the Republic of Ingushetia and crossed the border without declaring war.

It’s useless to explain murriou - he is a notorious Russophobe, instantly issuing pearls such as: "Russia in the WWII is clearly an aggressor against Germany and Austria-Hungary."

Apparently, nobility to him no. And the Russians pinched

[Alexander Greene]

Green: Do not confuse the Great Patriotic War with the German, Different goals, different tasks, different authorities.
Chav: Why not? And here and there Germany declared war on Russia, and there and there honest soldiers fought for their homeland, and there and there were skins
veteran66: ... she (the tsarist army) ensured that the Germans did not stand near Moscow and did not kill us 28 million people and brought so much grief and devastation to the territory of Russia, but you Russophobes do not understand this, you have your own alternative history.

Dear, it’s a shame in our time not to see the differences between the two wars - this is not in your favor.

In appearance, the German war seems to be similar to the Great Patriotic War, but this is only an outward resemblance. Look at the root, as Kozma Prutkov taught.

In the German war, two cousins ​​fought among themselves, fought with their armies, civilians, and the prisoners at that time were not subjected to total destruction.

In the Great Patriotic War, German imperialism was aimed at the destruction of the world's first socialist state, and therefore the Nazi army purposefully destroyed the Soviet people as the bearer of socialist ideology. Therefore, such sacrifices.

[tyr]

Quote: Alexander Green

Green: Do not confuse the Great Patriotic War. With the German. Different goals, different tasks, different authorities.

Why is this? After 24.09.1941 it was absolutely the same war. With exactly the same goals. It makes no difference, except that France did not participate.

Quote: Alexander Green

In the Great Patriotic War, German imperialism was aimed at the destruction of the world's first socialist state, and therefore the Nazi army purposefully destroyed the Soviet people as the bearer of socialist ideology. Therefore, such sacrifices.

The Germans wanted to sneeze on "socialism." And on the "Soviet ideology" along with its carriers. And they were not going to destroy “socialism”, they planned only to push it east of the Volga and the North. Dvins. And there, let the Bolsheviks build their own “socialism” for themselves, the Germans did not care.
The Germans deliberately destroyed the commissars, this is a known fact. But about the targeted destruction of the Soviet people, I hear for the first time.
Yes, the Germans used hostage tactics, which was condemned in Nuremberg as a war crime. But this tactic was valid in all occupied territories, the USSR was no exception.

Quote: Alexander Green

civilians, and prisoners at that time were not subjected to total destruction.

Prisoners during the 1st MV were protected by international conventions. Which the Bolsheviks did not sign.
As for the civilian population, look at how far the Germans advanced in 1MB, and how much in 2MB. In addition, do not forget the difference in arms levels.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: tyr

After 24.09.1941 it was absolutely the same war.

Dear, only you and your like-minded people do not see the difference between the two wars. I don’t understand why, exactly after 24.09.41.?

[murriou]

Quote: Alexander Green

I don’t understand why, exactly after 24.09.41.?

Dear Alexander, I have been reading your posts with respect and respect for a long time, but now I can tell you something, possibly new, for some time: this "tyr" is still the same weirdo that until recently broadcast like F.NN, and before that, he changed a bunch of nicknames and old-timers are familiar as Carbine Zeus.

Yesterday, he was once again deservedly banned, and it was resurrected under a new name. But his recognizable long ears continue to stick out under any of his nicknames, and give him away very quickly.

In this case, his donkey idea worked out with such donkey markers, as if after the US Congress decided on a Lend-Lease everything, well, absolutely everything became different

Why does it think so - the question is not for me, psychiatry is not included in the circle of my interests and knowledge.

[veteran66]

Quote: Caretaker

From Mikhail Afanasevich Bulgakov.
Sharikov is a fictional character.

Well, yes, it was invented by M.I. Bulgakov and he pronounces his words through Sharikov, and these words, the quintessence of the then fighters against the "bourgeois element." Are you with associative thinking tight?

[veteran66]

Quote: avva2012

who killed more than their Slav brothers, God forbid such a relative-hero! He was an ordinary Red Army soldier, I hope.

However, you have a strange interpretation of other people's words.

God forbid such a relative-hero!

still a relative, whatever he may be, and then added that

He was an ordinary Red Army soldier, I hope.

though, why am I surprised? It is customary for “comrades” to refuse their mothers and fathers if they and the party’s general line did not hesitate together, and Pavlik Morozov, who surrendered his father, has an idol.

[avva2012]

What kind of Pavel Morozov are you talking about, that of propaganda or of a real criminal case? Information about that how everything was in reality, did not read? Or maybe you approve of the murder of a child, in any case? The boy was killed not by the Bolsheviks. What I agree with is that propaganda is successful and not very good. In this case, it would be better to have told everything as it is. The rest is in your answer, I won’t even comment. Either there was no grandfather, or you are an exception to all possible rules.

[veteran66]

Quote: avva2012

What about Pavel Morozov, about propaganda or a real criminal case?

I knew that this question would follow. Of course from propaganda, idols are only propaganda created.

[avva2012]

from propaganda, idols are only propaganda and are created.

Well, are you talking about the sufferer then?
PS And maybe propaganda is only Bolshevik, and then you are with other gentlemen, already out of good and evil? Pure true outgoing?

[lesnik1978]

Who is Pavlik Morozov and why he was killed in the journal "Man" and the law "wrote his teacher, who at that time was 94 years old.

[veteran66]

Quote: avva2012

The rest is in your answer, I won’t even comment. Either there was no grandfather, or you are an exception to all possible rules.

because there is nothing to say, and the fact that I didn’t doubt the exception to your rules, I wrote about this.

[avva2012]

Congratulations, you started talking to yourself. And what a good deal, even with a smart person you can talk.

[veteran66]

Quote: avva2012

And what a good deal, even with a smart person you can talk.

that's for sure, but it's hard with you - stupid ....

[avva2012]

I understand, hard work. Is it milk for harm?

[veteran66]

Quote: avva2012

Is it milk for harm?

receive and wait until they give (or maybe not) this is a relic of the scoop, normal people earn. Yes, I have enough for milk, as well as for a French roll with caviar))

[avva2012]

The heroes of capitalist labor live hard, all by themselves, all by themselves. Only with the expression "normal people", one must, nevertheless, be more careful, the lack of criticality can end.

[veteran66]

Quote: avva2012

only with the expression "normal people", one must, nevertheless, be more careful, the lack of criticality can end.

"and then Ostap suffered ...." (I. Ilf and E. Petrov)

[Aleksandr12]

Boris55,
Regarding justice. A group of people developed software, is it fair to pay 30 thousand rubles for it for a copy? Or is it a swindle and the peeling of the working people? Or another example of how resources should be allocated. Imagine that you are the director of an enterprise producing ... felt boots. You have 100 subordinates. Who should have a bigger salary according to yours, the worker who produces the goods or who has found a market for the goods organized his production and is fully responsible to the buyer for its quality?

[Loki_2]

The descriptive part of the article is decent. If not for the pen of the author about;
Russia-Russia and the historical mission of its struggle with the "golden calf" (materialism), then I would refrain from writing a critical comment. One feels that the author has some elven paintings about the Russian Federation in their head.
ps Once again I want to pay attention to the term Russia-Russia. I would like to compare it with the creation of the Maidan Ukraine-Russia. What is Ukraine-Russia funny and Russia-Russia not? The same dibious terminology leading deep into anal sexes of fantasies about Aryans and other nonsense.

[avva2012]

veteran66,

Before writing the previous post, I spent quite a lot of time searching for this "Szydlowski" and besides this picture - nothing.

Elbows with knees not erased while looking?
Shkuro A.G. "Notes of the White Partisan." "Pokrovsky moved the plastons of both brigades to Nevinnomysskaya and took possession of it. From there I made a sudden attack on Temnoleskaya and took it. At the same time, a red squadron was captured and some trophies were taken. General Pokrovsky who arrived soon ordered to hang all the prisoners and even defectors. I have there was a collision with him about this, but he only laughed off and laughed in response to my complaints. Once, when we had breakfast with him, he suddenly opened the door to the courtyard, where several hanged men were hanging on the ropes. ” etita - he said Pokrovsky did not skimp on the severity like "nature of human love", "kind of a hanged man animates the landscape" and the like. " Gul R. B. "Ice campaign": "... 50-60 motley-clad people lead people from behind the huts, many in protective clothes, no hats, no belts, their heads and hands all lowered. Prisoners. They are overtaken by an underground regiment. Nezhintsev, jumping to us, stopped - under the mare dances a mouse-colored dance. "Those who want reprisals!" he shouts. "What is it?" - I think. - Shooting? Really? "Yes, I realized: the shooting, these 50-60 people, with their heads and arms down. I looked at my officers." Suddenly no one will go? "- it flashed through me. No, they are leaving the ranks. Some are smiling with embarrassment. , some with fierce faces. About fifteen people came out. They went to a bunch of strangers and click the shutters. A minute passed. Flew by: or! .. Dry crack of shots, screams, groans ... People fell on each other, and about ten paces, snuggling tightly into the rifles and spreading their legs, they fired at them, hastily clicking the shutters. Everyone fell. Moans fell silent. Shots fell silent. Some who shot fled. Some finished off with bayonets and rifle butts still alive. Here it is, the civil war; what we walked along to the field, cheerful and joyful at something, this is not a "war" ... Here it is, a true civil war ... A captain next to me, his face is like a battered one. "Well, if we do, that's all for us stand up, "he mutters softly." Von Budberg A.P. "Diary of the White Guard.": The boys think that if they killed and tortured several hundred and thousands of Bolsheviks and muzzled a certain number of commissars, then they did a great job, delivered a decisive blow to Bolshevism and brought closer the restoration of the old order of things. The usual psychology of every ambitious platoon who believes that he decided the outcome of the battle and the whole war. But on the other hand, the boys do not understand that if they indiscriminately raped, tear, rob, torture and kill, then they instill such hatred towards the authorities they represent that the Bolsheviks can only rejoice at the presence of such diligent, valuable and beneficial employees for them.Lieutenant General Denisov S. V. "Notes. Civil War in the South of Russia 1918-1920": "It was difficult for the authorities ... .. there was no need to pardon ... ... each order bore, if not punishment, then a warning about it ... ... It was necessary to exterminate the persons convicted of cooperation with the Bolsheviks without any mercy. Temporarily it was necessary to profess the rule: “it is better to punish ten innocents than to justify one guilty.” Only firmness and cruelty could give the necessary and quick results. Drozdovsky M. G. "Diary": “At 14 p.m. a requiem took place for the 4 killed officers and soldiers at their grave, there were many residents. We noticed, incidentally, one old man who was crying for the whole funeral ... At 19 p.m. the Dvuchenko expedition returned - they found only one main a participant in the killings — they shot him, the rest fled, burned them at home, took away fodder, livestock, etc. From there we drove to Dolgorukovka, the detachment was greeted with bread and salt, white flags on all houses, complete and absolute humility everywhere ... As people in fear of nasty things, zero dignity, zero decency, really scum, one contempt worthy people: arrogant, ruthless, full of mockery against the defenseless, with impunity not knowing an obstacle to wild unbridledness and anger, but to the strong ones such a cowardly, obsequious and low-minded ... " . Can I continue or quat?

[avva2012]

And, these are memories of the "excursion" of the noble from Novorossiysk. George Yakovlevich William (journalist): ... I climbed up to my seat on the second floor and began to watch what was happening. Each descending into the hold at first looked around bewildered, then, like a madman, he threw himself on the first bunk that fell, fell on it with his stomach, and threw a cardboard on the other , on the third - the knot and yelled at the same time, as if they were cutting it: - Here, here, Ninochka! Zhora, here, Maroussia! Fedor Adamovich, but rather take a place opposite, what do you think a raven! .. A crying child was put on one bed; another was tied with a chain to a little dog, with a frightened muzzle and standing on end standing up. People were scared everywhere.
- To hell with dogs. Nowhere to put the children! - Go to the damn mother yourself, Bolshevik! “The owner of the dog answered this with dignity, puffing at a cigarette.“ Madame, I’m a corps commander! ..- I’m a colonel myself! .. Most of all I was torn and screaming from now on from somewhere "commandant of the hold", some kind of thin, mustached mister with colonel epaulettes; he ran from bunk to bunk, wiped sweat from his forehead with a red handkerchief, swore that he would "grind and settle down when we left"; the ladies clutched at him, as at their last salvation, shouted something, he pulled himself out, pale, excited, and rushed on. He dumped his suitcases, folded his hands on his chest with a plea; some little dog already managed to bite his hand, some nanny screamed in a crying voice: - Mistress, mistress, look what he's doing! Dear Ones, I grabbed Nelichka by the leg! Oh you convict! - You have no right! I have a husband ... Children cried, plaintively and helplessly, like children crying. At all the clutter and foolishness, without a smile, with serious shaved faces, several stiff English officers looked in short jackets with a golden galloon. One of them stopped a passing, confused “Tommy” and with it resolutely moved into the thick of screaming ladies, barking dogs, someone who was scattering generals; crying children - and in some quarter of an hour put things in order. All got seats, and many of the beds were empty. “It's always like this with us,” the commandant grumbled, taking off his cap and puffing heavily. - The people, and also the "intelligentsia"! Worse than the Hottentots! .. We started to settle down. Younger ladies immediately took out flirty peignoirs, caps with ribbons; teki carpets appeared on the gray soldiers' blankets of the beds; sheets spread between places; chintz curtains. Soon, many passengers lay down with cigarettes in their teeth in picturesque poses on a blue and pink satin, trimmed with firmware and lace. Mothers and nannies ran in with pots, splashing their contents into the windows. The capricious voice tightened:
“Mom, I want some tea, some tea! .. It was terribly cold in the hold: no steam was allowed into the pipes while standing.” The first noticed this ladies in peignoirs. Indignant exclamations were heard: “Damn it! We will not allow it! After all, this is a crib, not a steamer! Should have warned. We would not go. But where is the commandant? The commandant swept over again. Fortunately for him, an elderly Englishman with a pipe in his mouth went down into the hold. The commandant grabbed his hand, dragged him to the heater and, showing his hands in the air, shouted into his ear: - Steam, steam! You understand - steam!
The Englishman looked at him favorably and puffed on his pipe. Then he patted his shoulder and said: “Karasho!” Welcome! And, nodding his head, he left, puffing his pipe. The commandant smiled meaninglessly, looking after him. Suddenly, an old general with Vladimir on his neck rose from the basket on which he had been; sat, humbly eating a sandwich, got up and shouted: - Gentlemen! But what commandant is he when he doesn’t understand in English ?! However, the mustached colonel protested and with dignity "reported to His Excellency" that he was appointed by the Russian commandant of the ship. Voices rang out: - And who appointed the commandant of the ship? They should only grab! ..- Not here on the shore, here we are the commandants! We are protesting!
Finally came the commandant of the steamer, a small, nagging, red-faced general. Hoarse, fat, like a bulldog basque, he turned to the noisy passengers:
- Please calm down ... Steam will be released when the ship starts ... Colonel, I ask you to report those who allow themselves riots! The general, obviously, knew how to talk with excited people. The whole hold instantly fell silent. The colonel made a visor and said: “I'm listening, Your Excellency!” And he triumphantly looked at the hushed passengers: - What, have you taken?
The General retired with dignity. Subsequently, it turned out that he had appointed himself the commandant of the ship; and for this he rode all the way in the cabin of the second class, and not in the hold, taking advantage of all the prerogatives of the legitimate authority. From the cold, the portholes were shut up with pillows, diapers, rags. This did not make it warmer, but it became dark. He felt hungry. Soon, however, the commandant of the hold announced: “Please note: at six o'clock they will give tea and sandwiches.” Hot lunch tomorrow! When it got completely dark, several young Tommies brought a large steaming cauldron with English cooked directly with milk and sugar, tea, and several trays of sandwiches. Seeing that they had brought dinner, the passengers rushed all at once with such wild greed that the Tommy backed away. A scene began, which was embarrassing and painful to look at. Near the sandwiches rose a dump. They were pulled out from each other, drenched in tea, tasted and disgustedly splashed back into the boiler. They shouted: “What kind of burda did they bring?” Why didn’t they warn that they would feed like pigs? .. But the mugs continued to snatch from each other; they stuffed sandwiches in their mouths, stuck it in their pockets and shouted with full mouths: “Zhenya, why are you standing by a pillar!” Take it for three! Where do you climb out of turn, madame? You think I don’t see you for the third time ?! Then huge baskets, homemade cookies, Little Russian sausage, and fried turkey began to appear from baskets, trunks, and bags. Silence reigned throughout the hold. “Tommy” looked compassionately at the hungry people, offered to bring more tea. They gave chocolate to children. They began to fit; and again, scolding, complaints, threats to inform the authorities that the mattresses are tough, that there is nothing to breathe, that some men are traveling, which is so impossible. Finally calmed down and fell asleep. At night, the English doctors and the duty officer on duty went down into the hold. They opened all the windows - in the hold was such a "spirit" that it made you sick! I saw how, walking along the narrow corridors between the bunks, they looked in bewilderment at the sandwiches lying on the floor, pieces of cheese, canned food. Then came the "Tommy" with brooms and dustpan and threw it all out into the sea ... "

[veteran66]

Quote: Pancer

My grandfathers, they don’t say ANYTHING about that time,

if your grandfathers settled in good places at that time, this does not mean that everyone else lived well. How could you squeeze the last forces out of people during the war (all the grain was raked out for the needs of the front, leaving people on rotten potatoes in half with a swan) to throw them in old age to their fate without retirement? In addition to scientific work, my interlocutor, a disabled person of the SA, was forced to give lectures in the evenings so that his parents would not stretch their legs from hunger, because 69 rubles. the salary of a scientist was not enough for a living. What state should people be brought to if, after the appointment of a pension (for which he, in fact, is grateful to Khrushchev) for 20 rubles. his mother groaned and lamented not knowing where to put "such a breakthrough of money." Why should he love that period? Yes, he was not repressed, nor were his close friends repressed, but he hates that time, although he did not have white bone - blue blood, an ordinary peasant son.

[murriou]

Quote: veteran66

69 rub salary of a scientist

Something you really really lie. Not that I expected the truth from you, but ...

In what year, in which institution, in which position were, according to your lies, such salaries of researchers?

I received 110 rubles without a degree as a trainee immediately after graduation, a post-graduate scholarship (!) Was 90 rubles, graduate students without degrees started from 120 rubles, and as a rule there were still additional part-time jobs, + 30-50 rubles, and for my seniority, publications and degrees There was a decent surcharge.
Our SNS at a fairly young age already went from 150 to 200+ rubles. per month, and it was at that time very decent money.

That is, either your heroes are simply a myth and a LIE, as you usually do, or the heroes of this story were half-working woodpeckers who did not work in fact at all, and did not defend at least the candidate’s pension,

I recall how someone else from your company recently also cried that in his terrible Soviet childhood, he and his mother lived together on her 60 rubles., Horror, horror!

But when I asked who and where his mother worked, that I managed to get less cleaning; why there was no talk of dad; why the USSR and Stalin personally were to blame, that my mother managed to swindle this complainer from unknown people, and then did not try to find a normal job - the complainant silently disappeared into the bushes, as is usually the case with you.

[avva2012]

Something, the number 69 reminds me , aren't legs growing from there? As in that joke, no matter what I thought, all this is seen. I, I remember in the early 80s, my father settled in the so-called wild brigade in the north of Lake Baikal, so after 1,5 months, if not less, he brought in 1100, a welder. Yes, and other, quite honest ways, there were many ways to earn. Who wanted, of course.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: veteran66

In addition to scientific work, my interlocutor, a disabled person of the SA, was forced to give lectures in the evenings so that his parents would not stretch their legs from hunger, because 69 rubles. the salary of a scientist was not enough for a living.

I understood correctly, you specified in a subsequent comment that your research assistant received 69 rubles in Stalin's time?
So, dear, murriou is right - you are lying. Under Stalin, there were no such salaries. You, as always, exaggerate or downplay at least 10 times. Most likely it was 690 rubles. For that time it was a very good salary, for ordinary workers it was from 200 to 400 rubles. It was Khrushchev who in 1961 made the ruble denomination and 690 rubles turned into 69 rubles, but even then it was good money.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: veteran66

What state should people be brought to if, after the appointment of a pension (for which he, in fact, is grateful to Khrushchev) for 20 rubles. his mother groaned and lamented not knowing where to put "such a breakthrough of money."

State pensions in money were not supposed to collective farmers, because they worked in cooperative, not state-owned enterprises. Collective farms themselves paid their pensions to workdays, for which they prescribed wood for firewood, tes to build a house, grain, and other agricultural goods. Some collective farms, which were millionaire collective farms, paid pensions in cash.

[avva2012]

Man, he is everywhere a man. And, who is used to parasitizing on other people, it happens that when it falls into the conditions that there is no one to parasitize, it turns into cattle. Yes, the White Guard journalist wrote the notes, wrote in emigration, not the ruddy. So that all claims against him, a veteran.

[veteran66]

Quote: avva2012

Can I continue or quat?

continue, why not continue:

Crimea was handed over to Bela Kun and Rosalia Samuilovna. The triumphant winners invited Lev Trotsky to the chairmen of the Revolutionary Military Council of the Soviet Republic, but he replied: "Then I will come to Crimea when not a single white guard remains on its territory." The leaders of Crimea did not perceive this as a hint, but as an order and a guide to action. Bela Kun and Zemlyachka came up with a brilliant move to destroy not only prisoners, but also those who were free. An order was issued: all former servicemen of the tsarist and White armies needed to register - name, rank, address. For evasion of registration - execution. There was only a notice that everyone who came to register would be shot ...
With the help of this truly diabolical trick, an additional several tens of thousands of people were revealed. They were taken to their home addresses one at a time and shot without any trial - according to registration lists. The senseless bloody destruction of all those who laid down their arms and remained on their native land began. And now the numbers are called different: seven, thirty, or even seventy thousand. But even if it’s seven, to shoot so many thousands is a job. This is where pathological cruelty manifested itself, which had accumulated for years in Rosalia Zalkind for years. The demon broke free. It was Zemlyachka who said: "It's a pity to spend cartridges on them, to drown them in the sea."
Destruction took terrible forms, the convicts were loaded onto barges and drowned at sea. Just in case, they tied a stone to their feet, and for a long time later, standing dead men were visible in rows in clear sea water. They say that, tired of paper work, Rosalia loved to sit behind a machine gun.
Eyewitnesses recalled: “The outskirts of the city of Simferopol were full of stench from the decaying corpses of the executed, which were not even buried in the ground. The pits beyond the Vorontsov Garden and the greenhouses in the Krymtaev estate were full of dead bodies, lightly sprinkled with earth, and the students of the cavalry school (future red commanders) drove a mile and a half from their barracks to stone the golden teeth from the mouth of the executed, and this hunt always gave great prey. ” .
During the first winter, 96 thousand people out of 800 thousand of the Crimean population were shot. The slaughter lasted for months. On November 28, Izvestia of the Provisional Sevastopol Revolutionary Committee published the first list of executed persons - 1634 people, on November 30 the second list - 1202 people. Over a week, Bela Kun shot more than 8000 people in Sevastopol alone, and such executions took place throughout Crimea, machine guns worked day and night. Rosalia Zemlyachka hosted in the Crimea so that the Black Sea was red with blood.
In fairness, it should be noted that Zemlyachka was not the only fury of red terror. A connoisseur of the female soul, Mirabeau once said about the Paris riot that “if women do not intervene in the matter, then nothing will come of it.” In Russia, women intervened seriously. Countrywoman - in the Crimea. Concordia Gromova - in Yekaterinoslav. "Comrade Rose" - in Kiev. Eugene Bosch - in Penza. Yakovleva and Elena Stasova - in St. Petersburg. Former paramedic Rebekah Meisel-Plastinin - in Arkhangelsk. Nadezhda Ostrovskaya - in Sevastopol. This dry teacher with an insignificant face, writing about herself that “her soul is shrinking like a mimosa from any harsh touch”, was the main character of the Cheka in Sevastopol when officers were shot and drowned in the Black Sea, tying bodies to the load.
The terrible massacre of officers led by Zemlyachka made many shudder. They also shot women, children, and the elderly without trial or investigation. The massacres received such a wide response that the All-Russian Central Executive Committee created a special commission of inquiry. And then all the "especially distinguished" commandants of the cities presented in their defense telegrams of Bela Kun and Rosalia Zemlyachki, inciting to massacres, and reporting on the number of innocently killed. In the end, this is not a "sweet couple" had to be removed from the Crimea.

Ready to listen to the cries of the red-faced lovers of stale crackers: "Get out!"

[murriou]

Quote: veteran66

Ready to listen to the screams of the rudd

OU! That is, have you already prepared references indicating the source of your next "information"?
Or such a miracle did not happen, and you have everything as always, - is it taken from the fact that one grandmother told the other on the mound about what she personally heard from the third?

[avva2012]

Quote: murriou OU! That is, have you already prepared references indicating the source of your next "information"?

Source: Sergey Chennyk: First Crimean information and analytical newspaper N 87, AUGUST 19 / AUGUST 25, 2005 Article: "The Fury of Red Terror" about Rosa Zemlyachka. From where Chennyk took this information, one must ask him himself. In general, it’s not surprising to you not to know. This article is on all resources talking about the "bloody Bolsheviks."

[murriou]

Well, they tell the two-wheeler ... Usually he himself is not able to explain where he takes his next nonsense from.

[avva2012]

Yes, there are all losers. There is a photo, it’s strange that he didn’t bring it into “evidence”. So, it appears in them under different signatures, at least in 4 versions. Including is given for the colorful design of the "Bolshevik terror" in the Crimea. The primary source is: Martin Monestier "The death penalty. History and types of capital punishment from the beginning of time to the present day." In the chapter on treasury in the form of impaling on a stake, this photo and its caption are precisely given: "By order of the People's Commissar, soldiers of the Red Army hung and planted the Polish captain Rozhinsky on the stake." 1917. Photo "Sigma". "Illustrastion". I will not give the photo myself, if you want, you will find it. But, everything is striking here, and the "Polish captain", and the "soldiers of the Red Army", and the "people's commissar" in 1917! Photos of such quality that you can put any signature, but no, the "Bolsheviks" and nothing else.

[avva2012]

- I had to remove .. And then shoot one, and the second, in my opinion, ended her life in a mental hospital. Among whites, recall, at least one case, punishment for atrocities? Yes, excuse me, but where are the gases of Tukhachevsky? Waiting for a.

[Gopnik]

Comparing red and white terror is simply stupid (which doesn’t stop the krasnyuk from doing this, according to their level of intelligence). White could destroy real enemies - prisoners who fought against them, members of the Bolshevik party, activists. Those. they killed, as a rule, for the cause (which does not exclude excesses). The Reds killed just for belonging to the social category, representatives of the "counter-revolutionary classes", officers, priests, even if they did nothing at all. Plus, the terror of the Reds was an official policy, declared, consciously and purposefully pursued

[murriou]

Quote: Gopnik

White could destroy real enemies - prisoners who fought against them

OU! You admit, although you are trying to justify them, the brutal executions of white prisoners!

Yes, white - unlike the red ones - of the prisoners spared only the rank and file, who agreed to go to their service, and even then not all.

And there were “preventive” executions by Kolchakites and their other “blasphemous vysokovorogody” of entire villages only on suspicion of sympathy for the Reds, while destroying children, women, old people, hardly able to fight for the Bolsheviks even with complete desire.

But for you, the bakers, these are also “real enemies” and also “for business”.
And somewhere, yes, the whole Russian people was an enemy of tsarism and an enemy of whites.

Quote: Gopnik

officers, priests, even if they didn’t do anything at all.

Lies about priests have already been dealt with more than once; there were many times less of them throughout the whole of Russia before the revolution than was allegedly shot by the Bolsheviks.
Now explain. how could a “combat officer” who was in the active military service of one of the parties during the civil war

[avva2012]

White could destroy real enemies - prisoners who fought against them, members of the Bolshevik party, activists. Those. they killed, as a rule, for the cause (which does not exclude excesses).

The activities of the Volunteer Counterintelligence to clean Kiev "of criminal elements: communists, commissars and other abominations" were widely deployed. All house committees and landlords were ordered to immediately inform their tenants who had moved into the apartment or house over the past month. The denunciation epidemic has begun. Hundreds of innocent people who seemed "suspicious" were driven daily under guard to check in counterintelligence prisons. Their interrogation was carried out “with bias”: ill-treatment, bullying, beatings, torture, violence against arrested women, etc. With a huge number of those arrested with interrogations, they did not creep. Many "suspicious" did not survive until the next day. Prison unloading was also carried out without much red tape. In this case, military units helped counterintelligence. The headquarters of General Glasenin eliminated the "suspicious" primarily on one significant basis: "Jew." The "culprit" was immediately allowed to "flow". In this way, during the month and a half of the occupation in Kiev, according to official estimates of the Dobrarmiia, 2000 "communists" and "sympathizers" were exterminated. Poetics N. P. "Memoirs".
As soon as some agent discovered a sufficient amount of money, according to his agent’s notion, from a happy inhabitant of the Volunteer Army district, he could establish a hunt for him according to all the rules of counterintelligence art. He could just shoot him in a secluded place, put a compromising document in his pocket, a gross falsification, and the deed was done. The robber-agent, according to the laws published on this subject, received something about 80 percent of the amount found during the arrest of the "commissioner" who was arrested or killed. The population was terrorized and was ready to voluntarily pay anything to get rid of the attached pea coat, without bringing the matter to the police station.
It turned out something like this: the whole philistine mass as a whole was “questioned” in the sense of its political trustworthiness; on the other hand, there was a standing one - like Caesar's wife! - higher suspicion of front-line officers; they were followed by: counterintelligence, criminal investigation and, finally, state guards, acting under the protection of the highest authorities in complete unity with a gang of speculators, robbers and murderers. All this hostess, which ultimately destroyed the Volunteer Army, was equally dangerous for the population of the "deep rear", in relation to him, hostess, absolutely deprived of basic human and civil rights. Everyone who wore English overcoats and a semblance of epaulette walked in Novorossiysk armed to the teeth; they launched whips, revolvers and rifles for any reason and, as if, were not liable for this. For everything else was suspected of discontent, betrayal of a voluntary cause, malicious speculation, Bolshevik and socialist agitation, or at least “spreading false rumors” and belonging to “Jews”. William G. Ya. "The Vanquished."
In the newspaper where I worked, short notes daily received by the chronicler in the police about the murders of those arrested during their transfer to the places of detention got to the newspaper. These notes were always placed under the same heading: "failed escape." Initially, these notes were edited by police recorders as follows: "when I was forwarded to prison I tried to escape, for which I was killed." Subsequently, such a revision seemed embarrassing to the authorities, and was amended as follows: "attempted to flee and, after a threefold call, was killed by an escort." The appearance of legality was respected, which was required: people were not killed in vain, but only after three warnings, if that did not help ...William G. Ya. "The Vanquished."
Article No. 1033.
Resolution VI Sun Congress of Soviets.
On the release of certain categories of prisoners.
The VI Extraordinary All-Russian Congress of Soviets of Workers, Peasants, Cossacks and Red Army Deputies in its meeting of November 6, at the proposal of the Council of People's Commissars, decided:
1) Release from detention all those detained by the counter-revolution authorities who, within two weeks from the day of arrest, have not been or will not be charged with directly participating in a conspiracy against the Soviet regime, or preparing it, or organizing White Guard forces, or assisting those parties and groups that clearly set themselves the goal of an armed struggle against Soviet power.
2) Release all hostages from imprisonment, except for those whose temporary detention is necessary, as a condition of security for comrades who fall into the hands of enemies. The need for further detention of hostages of this kind, for each individual, can only be established by the All-Russian Extraordinary Commission. No other organization has the right to take hostages and keep them in custody.
3) To order to all revolutionary tribunals and people's courts in urgent. the procedure for reviewing the lists of persons convicted by them, with the aim of applying early release on the widest scale in relation to those whose release does not constitute a danger to the Republic.
4) To entrust the monitoring of the exact and steady implementation of this resolution to the Central Executive Committee, and in the field to the Executive Committees of local Councils.
5) Put this resolution into effect by telegraph.
Signed: Chairman of the VI All-Russian Congress of Soviets Y. Sverdlov.
Secretary Avanesov.
6th of November 1918.

[Gopnik]

Yes, thanks for confirming my thesis with concrete examples.

[avva2012]

You can’t do anything with your thesis. Simply, there are people who by reading the information on this site will be able to get a real picture of what is happening in the Civil War. For this, including, and you waste time. How many will look for what is given above? And so, here it is, read, compare, analyze.

[Gopnik]

And agree with me. Therefore, I say thank you.

[avva2012]

This is not even faith, this is superstition, but it adds confidence to oneself, right? If readers turn off emotions and turn on logic, then they will find the side themselves. Believe me, on the side of the anti-Soviet, unfortunately for those who sincerely do not recognize communist ideas, but at the same time they have the honor and conscience, I repeat, I see on this side: the anti-Soviet of monsieur Poland, the Savenkivites, Bandera and the "forest brothers", Hitler’s fighters , Vlasovites, the NTS and the CIA, and many others, are equally unappetizing personalities. I sympathize with those who so far have chosen the wrong side, just not looking around and asking themselves the question, “but with these, they will associate me, eh?”, “But will I mess up, involuntarily, in the same ranks as Kolchak ", Petlyura, Krasnov, von Panovets, Bulak-Balakhovich, Shukhevych and many, many?" All of them are anti-Soviet. A person should choose who he is and with whom he is, and whether he is a person.

[avva2012]

And there were still such. In the spring of 1927, under the leadership of General Kutepov, a combat organization was created at the ROVS "Union of National Terrorists."
For two weeks, Staunits, Zakharchenko and Larionov discussed plans for upcoming sabotage in Soviet Russia. Finally, their joint proposals fell on Kutepov’s table: “After our departure, it is necessary to send two or three groups of 4 people to blow up the bridges. Blow up the bridge at the same time on Volkhov and Luga in order to cut off Petrograd and create panic. After this, you can proceed to arson and to explosions in institutions through previously laid shells. It’s possible to get technical means. Try now to arrange the preparation of bombs of great strength, small vessels with gases and most importantly - the culture of bacilli.[/ i] By this we, most likely, will finish them off with the least losses for us. [i] And for the people, the appearance of the plague or cholera among the communists will, of course, be interpreted as the wrath of God. We no longer have to talk about humanity. In addition, you need to organize piracy at sea, poisoning of the export of Russian goods. First of all, it is necessary to organize: 1) Production of documents: a) preparation of forms according to our samples; b) seals, stamps; c) books with watermarks. 2) Development of each act on the map of Russia and city plans. The task is given only to the senior in the group, who informs the rest only on the day of crossing the border. 3) Each is supplied, except for weapons (a revolver and hand grenades), with a potassium cyanide capsule so that no one dares to fall into the hands of a living. 4) Finding a pyrotechnics instructor: a) engaging in subversive activities and handling dynamite and gases and working them out with people designated for dispatch; b) compilation of a brief manual on the artisanal production of explosives and gases, set forth in the form of proclamations that must be given to travelers, as well as to be distributed within Russia. 5) Attraction of absolutely proven bacteriologist: a) equipment of his laboratory for breeding cultures of infectious diseases (plague, cholera, typhoid, anthrax, glanders); b) the supply of leaving bacteria to infect communist houses, hostels of the GPU troops. After the first strikes against living targets, the center of gravity should be transferred to industry, transport, warehouses, ports and elevators in order to disrupt the export of bread and thereby undermine the base of the Soviet currency. To destroy the southern ports, each of them needs no more than 5-10 people, and this must be done at the same time, because after the first speeches in this direction their protection will be significantly strengthened. Now there are no armed guards at all. After the first speeches, it is necessary to widely publish and send to all grain exchanges and large grain-feed companies a message from the Union of National Terrorists, in which they inform that all members of the SNT who are in Russia will not only hand over their bread to Soviet bullet points and elevators poisoned, but will also poison the bread given by others. Even partial poisoning of 3-4 steamers loaded with Soviet bread, regardless of where this is done, will deter all reputable firms from buying Soviet bread. Of course, every case of poisoning should be immediately, very broadly, notified to the press so that there are no cases of actual poisoning foreigners. One can try to do the same with other Soviet export edible products, for example, with Siberian oil. With the introduction of their people in movers, port and customs officials, this will be easy to do. This would inflict a blow on the Soviets, almost equivalent to a blockade. In addition, the destruction of elevators will not only greatly increase the cost of bread, but also worsen its quality. It will not be difficult to obtain technical means in sufficient quantities, up to well-armed motor boats. If such had been obtained, then some piracy could have been developed for the sinking of Soviet ships. After all, now there are motor boats, faster than the destroyers. If there was a motor ship, it would be possible to arrange the sinking of the Soviet training sailing ship Comrade, which was due to return soon from America. With its slow course, overtaking in the open ocean and drowning so that there are no traces left would not be so difficult. And on it, after all, exclusively Komsomol members and communists. The effect would be amazing. The sinking of Soviet oil vessels could lead to a violation of contracts for the supply of petroleum products and colossal forfeits. Here we will find wide support from oil companies ....
Do you think in the OGPU, did they come up with this?

[Alexander Greene]

veteran66: Ready to listen to the cries of the red-faced lovers of stale crackers: "Get out!"

About executions in the Crimea
Washing is always harder than spitting. But rumors of mass executions of white officers in Crimea are greatly exaggerated.

In order not to be unfounded, let us turn to the book of Baron P.N. Wrangel's “Memoirs (November 1916 - November 1920)” in two books. And in chapter IX "Everything on Wrangel" of his second book P.N. Wrangel notes: “By September 1, our forces did not exceed 25 bayonets and 000 sabers. And in Crimea, for the prepared fortifications, even a smaller number of the military personnel of our troops managed to retreat. ”
Well, let's say, 30 retreated. If each officer in the subordination had at least four to five soldiers, it turns out that there were about 000 white officers in the Crimea. Total!!!

Of course they were shot. How many? I suppose a hundred, another, whose hands were up to the elbow in blood. Otherwise, where did the thousands of white officers come from in Turkey, Bulgaria, Korea, China, France, the USA, and around the world. I REMEMBER THAT ON ALL FRONTS (ON ALL) IN THE WHITE ARMY, FULL OF 40 OFFICERS (TOTAL) Fought.

In total, General Wrangel managed to evacuate 145693 people from the peninsula (of which about 5000 were wounded and sick). From the country were exported: up to 15 thousand Cossacks, 12 thousand officers, 4-5 thousand soldiers of regular units, more than 30 thousand officers and officials of the rear units. In total, after the completion of the evacuation, about 2000 officers and 53000 ordinary soldiers remained in the Crimea.

Only about 3000 people were shot by the Crimean Cheka. All of them have documents that say that in Crimea only those who "distinguished themselves" by atrocities during the stay of Wrangel troops on the peninsula were convicted and executed. Documents, photographs, testimonies of witnesses are given in the Crimean archives in the cases of shot flayers, for example, as they, for example, poisoned the family of a worker suspected of participating in the underground as dogs or, as simferopol underground, were thrown from the depot under the wheels of a steam locomotive.

[murriou]

Quote: Alexander Green

If each officer in the subordination had at least four to five soldiers

The RIA platoon in the PMV consisted of 62 people: 4 departments of 15 people each, an officer and his batman.
But even if we take into account the incompleteness, a certain number of officer units, and add to the military officers the White Cossacks, rear officers and all other conscious white story, the total number of officers and Cossacks at Wrangel is still orders of magnitude smaller than the number of them allegedly brutally executed by the Bolsheviks as called by the bakers.

I will add that after the amnesty declared by the Bolsheviks, many white officers and Cossacks joined the Red Army.
Moreover, many of them after that rose to high ranks in the Red Army and deserved government awards, including in the Second World War, so we don’t have to try to hang on our ears the next batch of crystal-block noodles about the mass execution of all those who believed in amnesty

And who stayed on the pipe? Those who were too bloodstained to hope for forgiveness. It is such scum that has accumulated in the Crimea, and not the angels of God or the Anihedet at all, as the crackers try to lie to us.

[veteran66]

Quote: Pancer

I have an income from three apartments, 100000 bucks, why should I work, a question. who is it?

I understand that you are jealous of colic

[veteran66]

Quote: Rastas

Art historians, as you know, at all times were noble weathercocks.

but there are examples of such art critics or is it so hollow behind the wattle fence? And it was the very party members of the "faithful day" who were the weathercocks, your idols who hesitated along with the party’s general line, didn’t you confuse them with art critics?

[veteran66]

Quote: avva2012

"It was difficult for the authorities ... .. there was no need to pardon ... ... each order bore, if not punishment, then a warning about it ... ... The Bolsheviks had to be convicted of collaborating, to exterminate without any mercy. Temporarily it was necessary to profess rule: “it is better to punish ten innocents than to justify one guilty.” Only firmness and cruelty could give the necessary and quick results.

it from here points of the 58th article were written off? Did you really deal with the so-called "traitors to the motherland" and their relatives and friends. You think this is right, so why is it wrong in White’s performance?

[avva2012]

Reds, copied from whites? And, where were the relatives not involved in the CRD destroyed? Anyway, whom and where? A spark beating in my heart?

[veteran66]

Quote: murriou

I was an intern without a degree 110r immediately after high school,

what year?

[murriou]

Quote: veteran66

what year?

In the 80s, the end of the Brezhnev era. And are you finally ready to name the real place and time of your horror stories?

[veteran66]

Quote: murriou

Or such a miracle did not happen, and you have everything as always, - it is taken from the fact that one grandmother is another

about zalkind? Yes, the entire Internet, only in the search for forget it. Or as your colleague in the society of witnesses of the advent of communism said to me: “Seek and you will find”)))

[murriou]

Quote: veteran66

the entire Internet, only in the search for forget it. ... "Seek and find out"

Are you completely unfamiliar with the search engine mechanism? Unsurprisingly, bakery is incompatible with education, intellect and conscience.

So: guglyandeks finds the given keywords all over the Internet, but it absolutely DOES NOT control the degree of reliability of the words found, so you basically admitted that you are searching in the trash for everything that stinks more fun, but it pleases you with a stink

And with the same success you can find cases of rape of people by aliens there, and any other nonsense, as well as evidence of red terror

[veteran66]

Quote: avva2012

Man, he is everywhere a man.

that is, the Soviet people in the concentration camps were not people? And there’s nothing to blame on others, the text you have quoted means that you are in solidarity with this author, so that responsibility is equally

[avva2012]

that is, the Soviet people in the concentration camps were not people?

And what does the White Guard journalist describe happening in the concentration camp?

And there’s nothing to blame on others, the text you have quoted means that you are in solidarity with this author, so that responsibility is equally

I cited the text of an eyewitness of those events, and the person to the "red" does not feel any sympathy. PS In the German concentration camps there were Soviet people who fled from them and then fought in partisan units, including in Europe. There were Soviet people who rebelled (for example, Sobibor, Mauthausen). Or do you look at Soviet people from a different perspective?

[murriou]

Quote: veteran66

it was about the Stalin era

Especially Lying.

Until 1961 the ruble was worth 10 times less than after that. True, the prices were also appropriate, but then a salary of 69 rubles could not exist even more so.

And yet, where is your specificity? What position, what institution, what experience?

To get a salary less than that of a cleaning lady, in the USSR it was necessary to try very hard, take off any work in general and be an asocial type, like your mother described your ally as slut-alcoholics - and who else could stay with a child in Soviet times without father, but on such insignificant content as 60 rubles?

But I rather believe that your complainant lied about his mother, hoping that our people would believe him. It is difficult for a Russian person to believe in the existence of a yoda capable of slandering its own mother so brazenly - but for the baker, any lies are permissible, if only the USSR would kick the donkey's hoof.

[avva2012]

he remembers that you read a minute ago you don’t remember

veteran, why did you break so much that you have come to insults? Did not like something from what I brought? So, before you take the side of the “whites,” you would teach history, and not as a young schoolgirl, “oh, how handsome, officer !, sharman, sharman”. And the fact that the officer’s hands are up to the elbow in blood and syphilis in addition does not bother you? The main thing is a beautiful shape and a famously twisted tendril?

[nizhegorodec]

Quote: avva2012

"oh, how handsome, officer !, sharman, sharman." And the fact that the officer’s hands are up to the elbow in blood and syphilis in addition does not bother you? The main thing is a beautiful shape and a famously twisted tendril?

Excuse me, did you serve in the army? Or were you such a servant that you got luli from officers? You would, my dear, have pulled the officer’s strap yourself, and only then you would give out your pearls, posing as a "wise guy"

[avva2012]

Or were you such a servant that you got luli from officers? You would, my dear, have pulled the officer’s strap yourself, and only then you would give out your pearls, posing as a "wise guy"

Have you tried to catch the point from what you read? Which is related Soviet officer to the White Guard? So twist a finger at your temple, my dear. Oh, what about the service in Soviet Army, this is where you saw this so that "from the officers got the lyuley"? So educating fighters in Soviet Army, were engaged in senior service and sergeants, also not young. PS in bold is highlighted by me, personally for you.

[nizhegorodec]

Quote: avva2012

Have you tried to catch the point from what you read?

Do you have any sense in what is written?

Quote: avva2012

What does the Soviet officer have to do with the White Guard?

no! But he is an officer and an officer in Africa (although there are people just wearing officer epaulets) any officer will tell you that. And if you are offended by officers, these are your purely personal problems. I knew that some kind of rock hat teaches me life here.

Quote: avva2012

And, about the service in the Soviet army, this is where you saw this so that "you get the officers from the Lyuli"

As an officer in the Soviet army, I saw everything. And “lyuli” is not necessarily what you imagined in your inflamed brain.

[avva2012]

I knew that some kind of rock hat teaches me life here.

Ohhhh, sorry, Field Marshal, did not recognize you in makeup!
Miles of pardon, Generalissimo, never again, never, without consulting with the Officer, I will not write more than one comment! I’ll go and take something from inflammation.

[nizhegorodec]

Quote: avva2012

Sorry Field Marshal

Thank you, but I have enough of my shoulder straps, soldier.

[veteran66]

Quote: murriou

That is, either your heroes are simply a myth and a LIE,

It is clear, but how about here, under Stalin, the collective farmers were enraged with fat, they didn’t even need money, they worked for sticks in the sheet, especially after the war. Come on, draw your myths about the happy past of the collective farmers, just bite crackers.

[murriou]

"You, dear" veteran ", for the THIRD consecutive time you are evading the message of any specifics according to your recent scarecrow story about elderly researchers with a salary of 69 rubles

[veteran66]

Quote: Alexander Green

In World War II, German imperialism was aimed at destroying the world's first socialist state, and therefore the Nazi army purposefully destroyed the Soviet people,

and that’s why it came to Moscow and Stalingrad, right?

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: veteran66

and that’s why it came to Moscow and Stalingrad, right?

And under Alexander the First, they surrendered Moscow to Napoleon ... And what of this?

[murriou]

Because it had a huge numerical advantage at the beginning of the war and aimed all our strength against us, as well as all the resources of Europe conquered by them.

Because the Wehrmacht at the beginning of WWII was by far the strongest army in the world, capable of breaking the numerically superior and pre-mobilized army of France with its allies over the bumps in a month and with negligible losses.

And at the same time, the Soviet Red Army was the first force in the world that could stop Hitler even in such a situation. It’s not that the tsarist army, which completely blown through the war in small Japan and suffered constant defeats on the auxiliary front of the WWII from the minor forces of the enemy, is significantly inferior in number.

[veteran66]

Quote: avva2012

graduated from a psychiatric hospital.

this punishment is such that someone was shot there, so for the Reds this is a common thing, they gnawed like spiders in a bank and spanked, most likely not for atrocities, but for KRD, well, or some kind of plot. Red atrocities scare the hedgehog ass

[avva2012]

this punishment is

No, this is a statement of the fact that a person was mentally ill. This, only the Nazis destroyed the sick, and in the normal countries where the majority lives, normal people are isolated and treated. By the way, in the Russian Federation there are hospitals with intensive monitoring for patients who have committed serious crimes and who have been declared insane by the Court (in St. Petersburg, in my opinion).

[veteran66]

Quote: avva2012

Does the number 69 remind me of something? Like in that joke, no matter what you think about, you see it all.

Yes, my friend, it turns out that you are still that type you have to screw it up like that You guys, think less or take a sip of bromine. Now it’s clear why the knee-elbow pose is so close to you, even in front of the monitor in it

[avva2012]

Phew, my dear! The number is yours, not mine. Since the figure is false, the number you chose is apparently not random. Is the hint clear? Well, as for the knee-elbow position, you yourself thought of it. In essence, what is there to say, or are there only insults and the same offensive hints left?

[veteran66]

Quote: Alexander Green

And under Alexander the First

Moscow was not the capital, and retreat was part of the commander-in-chief’s plans, so what?

[murriou]

Quote: veteran66

Moscow was not the capital, and retreat was part of the commander-in-chief’s plans, so what?

Exactly that you are once again caught in hypocrisy and double standards

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: veteran66

Moscow was not the capital, and retreat was part of the commander-in-chief’s plans, so what?

And the fact that on the front from the Barents Sea to the Black Sea, 119 infantry and cavalry divisions, 33 motorized and tank divisions and two brigades, plus 29 divisions and 16 brigades of Germany’s allies (Finland, Hungary and Romania) launched an offensive against the USSR. In total, the eastern group of forces of Nazi Germany and its allies numbered 5,5 million people, 47,2 thousand guns and mortars, 4,3 thousand tanks and about 5 thousand combat aircraft.

And Napoleon crossed the Russian border with an army of 400 thousand, which advanced along the line of the old Smolensk road.

In 1941, the German Army Group Center, numbering 1,8 million people, over 14 thousand guns and mortars, 1,7 thousand tanks and 1390 aircraft, was advancing on Moscow.

Feel the difference.

In conclusion. Moscow at the beginning of the 19th century was more than a capital. It was the first throne, Russian tsars were crowned there.

[Gopnik]

Quote: Alexander Green

And the fact that on the front from the Barents Sea to the Black Sea, 119 infantry and cavalry divisions, 33 motorized and tank divisions and two brigades, plus 29 divisions and 16 brigades of Germany’s allies (Finland, Hungary and Romania) launched an offensive against the USSR. In total, the eastern group of forces of Nazi Germany and its allies numbered 5,5 million people, 47,2 thousand guns and mortars, 4,3 thousand tanks and about 5 thousand combat aircraft.

This must be said with gratitude to the Bolshevik diplomats from the plow, how famously they pulled it off, that after 2 years of the World War the USSR met the enemy with an unmobilized army and without allies. Well, of course, steering foreign policy is not raving about Marxist-Leninist utopias

Quote: Alexander Green

And Napoleon crossed the Russian border with an army of 400 thousand, which advanced along the line of the old Smolensk road.

That’s right, he advanced along one road and retreated along it; they were not allowed to spread left and right.

Quote: Alexander Green

Moscow at the beginning of the 19th century was more than a capital. It was the first throne, Russian tsars were crowned there.

Yes, yes, and Reims is larger than Paris, French kings were crowned there. Moscow is the second city in the country, but nothing more. It was not even close to St. Petersburg in terms of military, industrial, or political potential.

[murriou]

Quote: Gopnik

After 2 years of World War II, the USSR met the enemy with an unmobilized army and without allies.

The advance mobilization of the army in the USSR would be called an act of aggression even by our would-be allies. Which, by the way, there were, and in WWII they behaved no better.

But early mobilization did not help the French much, nor did their numerical superiority before the start of the battle. The USSR, having neither one nor the other, showed itself much better in WWII than the great powers France and England.

But the Red Army was much more combat-ready than the French, Belgian and English, and equipped with much more time-appropriate weapons than the RIA in WWII - and the country’s industry was able to provide this army.

Although the enemy had enormous numerical superiority and brilliant combat experience, he was stopped, and then defeated and completely defeated.

Not that there was a disgrace in the RYAV, where the tsarist army and navy managed to blow through all the battles, incl. even to significantly inferior enemy forces, as at Sandepu, incl. with such catastrophic results as Tsushima with a more than 100-fold loss ratio and the second almost complete destruction of the tsarist fleet in the theater of operations.

It’s not like there was a disgrace in WWII, where the predominantly personnel Russian army from the very beginning suffered a heavy defeat from an enemy that was significantly outnumbered and, moreover, consisting largely of reservists and militia. But the tsarist industry was unable to ensure sufficient production of high-tech weapons, including even machine guns, and even raised its own production of rifles to the required level only towards the very end of the war - and before that, 30% of “Russian” rifles were of foreign origin, and those were not initially enough. This was no longer the case in the USSR.

[Gopnik]

Why are you writing this nonsense and stream of consciousness into which you have piled up everything you can and repeat from comment to comment mixed in with your fantasies??? How does all this cancel the fact that

Quote: Gopnik

After 2 years of World War II, the USSR met the enemy with an unmobilized army and without allies.

What resulted in a monstrous defeat and losses many times greater than those of the enemy?

[nizhegorodec]

Quote: murriou

The advance mobilization of the army in the USSR would be called an act of aggression even by our would-be allies. Which, by the way, there were, and in WWII they behaved no better.

no, well, everything is correct, what can I say, except:

Quote: murriou

Not that there was a disgrace in the RYAV

This has nothing to do with it - an event half a century ago, and in 1242, I remember, we killed the Germans at Chudskoye)))

Quote: murriou

It’s not like there was a disgrace in WWII, where the predominantly personnel Russian army from the very beginning suffered a heavy defeat from an enemy that was significantly outnumbered and, moreover, consisting largely of reservists and militia.

So in the Second World War, the Red Army also had no success on the battlefield, but the Army of the Republic of Ingushetia had considerable success.

Quote: murriou

And the tsarist industry was unable to ensure sufficient production of high-tech weapons, including even machine guns,

after all, they were such, the same “Maxim” consisted of more than a dozen parts processed on metal-cutting machines, by the way, the USSR was never able to produce a successor worthy of it until the early 50s. He didn’t even master automatic rifles, stopping their production as soon as they started, using the same royal reserves: Mosinka and Maxim.

Quote: murriou

Tsushima with a more than 100-fold loss ratio and the second almost complete destruction of the tsarist fleet in the theater of operations.

did the RKKF have naval battles like Tsushima? It's good that there was no... less shame. Tsushima is enough. The Black Sea Fleet, possessing many times greater forces, sat in the ports, barely having time to evacuate from the advancing enemy, the same thing happened in the Baltic. Although the submarines, to be precise, did fight. But, unfortunately, the “Dönitz boys” still did not achieve fame. And I completely agree with you.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Gopnik

Well, of course, steering foreign policy is not raving about Marxist-Leninist utopias

On the foreign policy of the USSR.

Great people appreciated the foreign policy pursued by the Soviet government under the leadership of I.V. Stalin like this:

“He had a deep, devoid of any panic, logical and meaningful wisdom. Stalin was an unsurpassed master of finding ways out of the most hopeless situations in difficult moments. In the most difficult moments, as well as in moments of triumph, he was equally restrained and never succumbed to illusions. He was an unusually complex person. He created and subjugated a huge empire. This was a man who destroyed his enemy with his own hands and forced us, whom he openly called imperialists, to rebel against the imperialists»
From speech W. Churchill

And the pygmies evaluate it like this:

“Well, of course, steering foreign policy doesn’t mean raving about Marxist-Leninist utopias.”
From the comment Gopnik

[F.NN]

Quote: Alexander Green

From the speech of W. Churchill

The saddest thing for the “witnesses” is that this “Churchill’s speech” exists only in Russian and only on the RuNet. Moreover, during the period when he seemed to be pronouncing it (in RuNet there are clarifications such as the place and time of this speech), he could not say anything, because I was very sick and even almost died.

Quote: Alexander Green

forced us, whom he openly called imperialists, to rebel against the imperialists

This is absolutely great. Who was the imperialist? Hitler and Mussolini? The first was a Nazi, the second a fascist. But it was Churchill and Roosevelt who were imperialists. Have they rebelled against themselves?

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: F.NN

Quote: Alexander Green
From the speech of W. Churchill

The saddest thing for the “witnesses” is that this “Churchill’s speech” exists only in Russian and only on the RuNet. Moreover, during the period when he seemed to be pronouncing it (in RuNet there are clarifications such as the place and time of this speech), he could not say anything, because I was very sick and even almost died.
Quote: Alexander Green
forced us, whom he openly called imperialists, to rebel against the imperialists

This is absolutely great. Who was the imperialist? Hitler and Mussolini? The first was a Nazi, the second a fascist. But it was Churchill and Roosevelt who were imperialists. Have they rebelled against themselves?

Why didn’t the imperialists fight against each other?
You misunderstand the term imperialist. This term is derived not from the word “empire”, “emperor”, but from the word “imperialism”, which refers to the highest stage of capitalism, the so-called state monopoly capitalism, which by this time existed in both Italy and Germany. Therefore, it is quite legitimate to call the leaders of these countries imperialists.

About the fake.
Few people have read Churchill's speech in the original. Not everything is written there like that, but we must say thanks to the rich Russian language - with its help, without losing the meaning, you can step a little to the left/right of the literal translation.
Here is the original quote in English from Churchill’s speech:

“It is very fortunate for Russia in her agony to have this great rugged war chief at her head. He is a man of massive outstanding personality, suited to the sombre and stormy times in which his life has been cast; a man of inexhaustible courage and will-power and a man direct and even blunt in speech, which, having been brought up in the House of Commons, I do not mind at all, especially when I have something to say of my own. Above all, he is a man with that saving sense of humor which is of high importance to all men and all nations, but particularly to great men and great nations. Stalin also left upon me the impression of a deep, cool wisdom and a complete absence of illusions of any kind.”
And here is the source - the text of the speech in its entirety:
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1942/420908b.ht
ml

And this is a fragment of a page from the Encyclopedia Britannica, article “Stalin” (Vol. 21, P. 303, published in 1956):



I cited an excerpt from a somewhat loose translation from English, but it in no way changes the assessment of the greatness of Stalin by the enemies of socialism.

[Looking for]

Rastas,

Quote: Rastas

Art historians, as you know, at all times were noble weathercocks. Therefore, references to the imaginary or non-imaginary 87-year-old art historian are inappropriate here. They could calmly write denunciations in the 30s and shout about innocently convicted in the 80s. The famous letter to Yeltsin in October 93 is enough to recall the call for reprisal against the defenders of the Armed Forces. It’s hard to imagine a bigger cesspool.

They were, are and WILL BE terribly far from the people.

[Looking for]

Pancer,

Quote: Pancer

Have apartment owners in Moscow turned into a monkey who were fortunate enough to get an inheritance and rent it out, while not working a day, as one 25-year-old said, I have income from three apartments-100000 bucks, for which I have to work, it’s a question. Who?

She is, in the full sense of the word, a PARASITE, with all the features characteristic of this word.

[Looking for]

Quote: Olgovich

The coat of arms of Russia is beautiful!

For you, of course, it’s beautiful, because, contrary to all the centuries-old rules of heraldry, there are symbols of the non-existent, but so adored by you, monarchical system. And for some reason, I’m afraid even the flattering Kremlin dish-lickers who approved this absurdity will not respond to this.

[XXXIII]

Quote: Seeker

Quote: Olgovich

The coat of arms of Russia is beautiful!

For you, of course, it’s beautiful, because, contrary to all the centuries-old rules of heraldry, there are symbols of the non-existent, but so adored by you, monarchical system. And for some reason, I’m afraid even the flattering Kremlin dish-lickers who approved this absurdity will not respond to this.

And what's wrong with it?

For the first time, a double-headed eagle as a state symbol of the Russian state is found on the reverse side of the state seal of Ivan III Vasilyevich in 1497, although images of a double-headed eagle (or bird) were found in ancient Russian art and on Tver coins before[3].

The placement of the rider on the chest of the eagle can be explained by the fact that there were two sovereign seals: Great and Small. The small one was double-sided and was attached to the document; on each side of it an eagle and a rider were placed separately. The great seal was one-sided and was attached to the document, which is why the need arose to combine two symbols of the state in one