"The Germans did well that they dispersed us then ..."

5


Yevgeny Stakhov (Stakhiv) is one of the few activists (then - leaders) of the Bandera movement that survived to this day. This interview he gave to 1 in October 2008 from the Zaxid.net web portal. Translation - Oleg Wide.

***

- Mr. Stakhov, you fought for an independent Ukraine. Now we have exactly the country for which you fought?

- We fought for an independent Ukraine, for a democratic Ukraine with social justice, equality, where all citizens would be equal. We knew that in Ukraine there are national minorities. At first we had the slogan “Ukraine for Ukrainians”, but I fought in the Donbas, and my colleagues said that this slogan was not good, and we rejected this slogan and fought for a democratic country with equal rights for all. The main thing was to achieve independence, and then how the people decide - we will have a democratic direction, either social democratic or socialist.

My colleagues and I were very pleased when the Soviet Union began to fall. When in the 90 year, RUH was making a Kyiv-Lviv living chain, I first came to Ukraine. And even when there was a majority of communists in the first parliament, for us this did not play a role, because the country was independent. And we had to settle the rest in our state in a democratic way. We thought that now we need to work actively so that the Democrats defeat the Communists. In 1991, the communists also voted for independence, therefore it was democratic. So there is such a Ukraine, for which we fought, and the rest - the people will decide. When Kuchma won the election, I was in Ukraine. We, the patriots, were not for Kravchuk, but when Kuchma won, we were disappointed, because Kravchuk was better than Kuchma.

And then we were very happy when Maidan was! We thought that now, when the Maidan won, then everything will be fine, that after Maidan there will be the best Ukraine. Maidan ... Maidan shouted to the gangsters of the prison. Bandits go - more than it was before. My colleagues and I have a disappointment, because those people whom the Maidan has put forward have not met the expectations of Maidan.

- Why did it happen?

“I have to ask you why this happened!” Although ordinary people are not to blame. I think that the mountain itself is to blame - those who rule the country. On the one hand, there is the President and its secretariat, on the other - the government headed by Yulia Tymoshenko. They are responsible, and the people suffer.

- You were the organizer of the OUN underground in the Donbas. How did the Donetsk citizens perceive the ideology of the OUN?

- Donbass is a peculiar part of Ukraine, where the majority of the working class. I was first in Gorlovka, then in Konstantinovka, Kramatorsk, Mariupol, Stalino. People talked to each other in surzhik, but everyone spoke to me in the Ukrainian language. I did not understand at all that it is surzhik. I was visiting the family of teachers in the village of Yasnuvata, and we had a conversation in Ukrainian, and their child spoke to us in Russian. And I tell him, why do you speak Russian when everyone speaks Ukrainian. And he told me: “Do I really speak Katsapi?” “And how?” I ask. And he says: "According to Yasinuvatski." And I realized that this is not Russian, this is a jumble of two languages.

In general, there was no national misunderstanding. In our underground there were Tatars, in the south, between Volnovakha and Mariupol, there were 10-15 Greek villages, and I dealt with the Greeks, who, by the way, spoke Ukrainian — purely, not surzhik. When we fought against the Germans, many of this region said that we were “Russian Ukrainians”.

For example, our underground fighter betrayed and came from the Gestapo to the apartment where I lived, right next to the village of Stalino, and I ran away. I was afraid that the failure, and therefore did not go to our other underground workers. I went to the Russians! I knew a Russian girl who brought letters from her Ukrainian boyfriend who moved to Krivoy Rog. And they hid me. That's how we were perceived.

But I must say that it was easy to fight against the Germans. Against the Communists harder. In 1943, we released a leaflet on which was written in the title: "Death to Hitler, death to Stalin." People had to know who we are. And then the attitude towards us has changed. For the death of Hitler was easy, and the death of Stalin was hard to understand.

“Now Bander is considered a model of the Ukrainian nationalist.” Does he really deserve it?

- This is a big and difficult question. I have already said that at first we had a slogan: “Ukraine for Ukrainians,” but in the East this slogan was not perceived as it was in the West. And we, those who were in the East, decided that we should be with the people, and not decide for them or dictate how they should be.

Therefore, in 1943, it was decided that we would contact the wire (the manual - MS) of the OUN (and the wire was in Lviv) in order to change this ideology. And there was a conference of the underground workers of Volyn, Galicia and Eastern Ukraine, and there was a discussion about the program. Galicia thought otherwise, there was a misunderstanding at these meetings, it could even reach a break, but we decided that we should convene a large gathering of Ukrainian nationalists, and the gathering would decide. The gathering took place in August 1943, and in stories He is called the Big Emergency Collection OUN. At that gathering, they changed the program to democracy and equality. Then they decided to get rid of leaderism. Decided to create a bureau about the occasion - triumvirate. The chairman is Shukhevych, Dmitry Maevsky and Rostislav Voloshin.

It was a transition from totalitarianism to democracy.

In July 1944, the UGVR was created - the Ukrainian Main Liberation Rada, which should lead the entire struggle. It included the OUN, the remnants of the democratic parties, church leaders. And as proof that this is not a Galician institute, Cyril Osmak, a native of Kiev, was elected president. There were Catholics and Orthodox. Both Orthodox and Catholics were half and half.

Now regarding Bandera: in 1941, the Germans arrested the Ukrainian government in Lviv, arrested Stetsko, and in Krakow - Bandera and my brother, who was the government minister of Foreign Affairs in Stetsko. They were in prison in Berlin. Most of those arrested were sent to the Auschwitz concentration camp. September 15 Germans staged a big pogrom of Ukrainians. Many people in Ukraine and students in Vienna, Berlin, Gdansk, Prague were arrested.

When the war ended, they left prisons and concentration camps with the ideology with which they were arrested - totalitarian, Dontsov. None of them had any idea what was going on in Ukraine. Bandera's position was incomprehensible to anyone. In February, the 1946 of the year was a conference of those OUN members who were abroad, and at that conference they decided that in order to fight for Ukraine, it was necessary to create an APEC — foreign parts of the OUN.

Stepan Bandera was elected chairman of the OCHU, not the OUN. Began an internal struggle. Bandera again wanted to turn back his status, to prove that he is a conductor (from the word "Provid", i.e. "leader"), a dictator.

There was a discussion between those who came from Ukraine and those that came out of prisons. We, those who left the kryivok (secret shelters. Comm. Transl.), Wanted the head of ZCOWN to be called "chairman", and Bandera demanded that the name be "conductor". We made a compromise that let there be a “conductor”, but we choose a “wire”.

Gradually formed two groups. Those who supported the UGVR and were in favor of democracy are “kraiviki”, and those who have left prison are “katsetniki”.

Bandera wanted to return to totalitarianism, which was bad for the Ukrainian people. Therefore, anyone who wants to build a monument to Bandera, wants to return to totalitarianism. Bandera, who did not know what is being done here, monuments, and those who fought here, what? Shukhevych should be monuments, not Bandera! That is an insult to those who fought and died, as they died not for Bandera, but for Ukraine.

By the way, in the UPA there was not a single red-black sign! Only blue-yellow and yellow-blue flags, since they were Bandera and Melnikov. The Ukrainian rebels of the Bandera trend had a blue-yellow flag, and the Melnyk residents had a yellow-blue one. And red and black colors appeared in Ukraine only in 1991-1992.

“And where did the red-black flag come from?”

- The red and black flag is fascism! For only the Bolsheviks, the fascists and the Italian fascists Mussolini made the party flags state. Even Russia is now back to the normal Russian flag. The red and black flag is the flag of provocateurs.

I said I was here in 1990. Then there was the Soviet Union, which was in charge of everything here, and even then a UNA-UNSO appeared in Lviv. They walked with red and black flags. And the UNA-UNSO was not created by Ukrainian patriots, but by the Bolsheviks. Created his KGB for provocations.

Want evidence? Before the proclamation of independence, I was in Lviv and lived in the George Hotel. I went out onto the balcony, looking, and on that street, which is now Shevchenko Avenue, UNA-UNSO is marching, around 80 guys in camouflage, and they carry red and black flags and sing: “Death, death, lyakham death, death of the Moscow-Yidiv commune ". So they walked around the circle for an hour. And I was just going to Kiev and was acquainted with the chairman of the foreign affairs committee in the Ukrainian parliament. And I say to him that the Ukrainians have a terrible stigma of anti-Semites, and in Europe anti-Semitism is equal to fascism, and we can suffer greatly. You are in power and have to do something about it .. He told me that he saw this “attraction” on Russian television in the evening. The Russians were already there! The KGB organized it all so that the world knew who the Ukrainians were.

KGB were wise. Show the world that they are anti-Semites! And those idiots still hold that flag.

I was at the first meeting of the UGVR in the village of Sprynya (in the Carpathians near Sambora in the Lviv region). In 1944, there were more blue and yellow flags and less red and black. And in the 2004 year, on the 60 anniversary of the UGVR, there were few blue and yellow ones. And all red and black! It speaks about that terrible nonsense that helps the enemies of Ukraine!

- At the beginning of the war, the OUN concluded an agreement with Hitler Germany. Why did this happen? Was this contract necessary?

- Cooperation of the OUN with the Germans was a long time ago. Long before the Second World War. From the era of the West Ukrainian People's Republic, from the time of the Treaty of Petlyura-Pilsudski: tragic and unfortunate for Ukraine.

The Poles did not win us, but Petlyura in this treaty renounced Western Ukraine and gave it to the Poles. Petrushevich could not support the Petliurism, and no one in Western Ukraine could support this. And then there was such a slogan: “Though with the devil, but against Poland.” Then Sovietism began to develop between the Galicians. At the same time, they began to look for contacts with the Germans, while Germany at the time was republican - democratic.

And SVR, and then the OUN had contacts with the German army. Even before the arrival of Hitler. Ukrainians, together with the Germans, conducted sabotage against Poland and were supported by German military intelligence.

And as Hitler came, the contacts were interrupted. Why? Because the Polish dictator Pilsudski was smarter than all the other rulers in Europe. Seeing the threat that Hitler bears, he turned to other countries with a proposal to go to Germany and strangle Hitler.

He was refused and then, fearing an attack, he concluded a non-aggression pact with Germany and agreed to cooperate against the Bolsheviks — he hoped that in that case he would not be touched. Now found documents that indicate on what principles this agreement was based. There was an agreement: as soon as they collapse the USSR together, Poland will get Ukraine.

After that, the head of German intelligence, Canaris, called E. Konovaltsa (one of the main organizers and the long-term leader of the OUN - MS) for a secret conversation and said that “there is an agreement with the Poles, and we can no longer support you in the fight against the Poles. But you organize the underground against the Bolsheviks. " And this was the cause of death Konovalets. The Bolsheviks abandoned their residency to us, and one of these residents killed Konovalets. And when Hitler signed the treaty with Stalin, then everything again returned to the other side, and together with the Germans we were again against Poland. This is with regard to the old collaboration.

And now about how everything was during the war: the Treaty of Versailles divided Ukraine in half, leaving a part near Poland. Germany fought for the revision of this treaty. We, all patriots, also stood for the revision of this treaty in order to reunify Ukraine. So we stood with the Germans on an equal footing in revising this treaty. And when Hitler started the war, we rejoiced, because we thought it was again a chance to make Ukraine independent.

30 June 1941 Ukraine’s independence is proclaimed in Lviv, and in all our appeals it was written - “Long live Hitler!” Because we hoped that we would be a united country in a new Europe, although we understood that the so-called “New Europe” would be Hitler's USSR! We were ready to become a German vassal for the sake of the unification of Ukraine. And now I say that the Germans did well, that we were then dispersed, because we would never have had an independent Ukraine. The world would curse us that we are the minions of the Germans!

They arrested our government. My colleagues boast that we began to fight against the Germans. Not. It was the Germans who forced us to fight them. I was the same Germanophile, like all the others, but when the Germans started looking for me, I began to fight with them.

But tell me - if Stalin signed a contract with Hitler, then what is this, okay? And how we entered into a contract with Hitler, is it so bad?

- Now this memory of cooperation with the Nazis prevents the recognition of the UPA

- UPA is not guilty of anything, because then the UPA was not! UPA appeared in 1943 year on the basis of the fight against the Nazis. It was a rebellion against the Germans. Now they say "OUN-UPA", but this is a Bolshevik provocation. It was the OUN, and was the UPA. Who unites the OUN and UPA, is a provocateur.

And now they have begun to add "divisions OUN-UPA." What are you saying? So you only help the enemies, so to the word "division" our opponents immediately add two letters "SS" - and that’s all, we have a stamp. I have repeatedly spoken abroad with those "divisions" who were really in the German divisions, and they say that they "fought for Ukraine." Which one? Under the Germans? And when I say that you fought for Germany, they rage.

- The President of Ukraine awarded Roman Shukhevych the title of Hero of Ukraine. Is it worth now to resort to heroization, which causes such disputes in Ukraine?

- Kuchma gave me the Order of Merit for Ukraine, Yushchenko gave me the Order of Yaroslav the Wise in 2006. I am proud that, at least, they have now recognized that I fought for Ukraine.

Shukhevych deserved an order! Shukhevych's award slightly worried the "regionals" (meaning the members of the "Party of Regions", Comm. Transl.), And even more nervous Putin. But I think that it’s not for Putin to decide whom to give orders to in Ukraine. This is not their business! Or Ukraine - their property, that they must decide who deserves the order and who does not? We are not interested in who you give orders to, to whom Americans give orders, to whom China gives orders, then why are you interested, to whom we give orders? We give orders to those who fought against you!
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5 comments
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  1. Escander
    0
    9 March 2011 17: 13
    Nationalists, they are also nationalists in Africa. What's the difference under which flags they go, red-black or yellow-blue. The fact of an inferiority complex is obvious. All "under someone" would go. And yelp at the big - do not feed. There is already a country, and independence was given, and the sense from that ... They themselves are already confused, who they have UPA and who UNA.
  2. MAD. 75rus
    +2
    24 January 2012 09: 40
    But one thing that makes me happy is that the USSR did not reign with these nationalist terrorists!
    Direct them to the wall and deal with the end!)))
    and their flags in the fire!
    Yes, under socialism, Ukraine also received the development that it now has!
    By the way, my relatives live in eastern Ukraine, so there people sometimes speak Russian, they are for joining Russia, they are the majority!
    They saw this Bendor or whatever his followers saw in the coffin !!
  3. 0
    24 January 2012 10: 08
    as Hitler came, the contacts were interrupted. Why? Because the Polish dictator Pilsudski was smarter than all the other rulers in Europe. Seeing the threat posed by Hitler, he turned to other countries with a proposal to go to Germany and strangle Hitler.... and then he went on a freebie and chopped off part of Czechoslovakia ...
    .. See how simple it is, you speak Surzhik-GBist, Ukrainian-garny lad .........!
    ... There are not enough orders for you? .... Give the time limit, we will nail the chest with nails .....
  4. 0
    7 December 2012 14: 18
    Few of these creatures were shot. They didn’t give a damn about the people, the authorities just wanted to. Here shouted popular slogans .....
  5. bishopXhc
    -1
    13 March 2014 15: 38
    The man is absolutely right. This should not worry the Russians. A Ukrainian is given an order for fighting for Ukraine on the territory of Ukraine. Everyone has already gotten Russian tales about Russophobes in Ukraine. How many of these storytellers were in Lviv and felt any hatred on themselves?
  6. rocketman
    -1
    April 26 2014 13: 24
    The article received a new resonance ...
  7. 0
    6 December 2019 10: 43
    Everything new is bad old.

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